September 8, 2025 • 28 mins
In this energizing episode of the Early Accountability Podcast, host Kimi Walker welcomes Dr. Ryan Gottfredson, a leadership development coach, author, researcher, and consultant, who specializes in helping leaders and organizations unlock their greatest potential through the power of mindset. Dr. Gottfredson shares his personal journey from a transformative high school sports psychology class to becoming a professor at California State University, Fullerton, and an internationally recognized consultant and author of three influential books, including Success Mindsets, The Elevated Leader, and his newest release, Becoming Better: The Groundbreaking Science of Personal Transformation.
Together, Kimi and Ryan dig deep into what it truly means to lead—not just in action, but in being. They unravel the crucial distinction between the “doing” and “being” sides of self-development and how traditional focus on skills and tactics often overlooks the inner operating system that shapes leadership, growth, and personal transformation. Dr. Gottfredson introduces practical strategies for vertical development, the role of self-awareness, and actionable techniques for cultivating foundational mindsets. Their conversation is packed with powerful analogies, real-world examples, and motivational reminders that elevating your impact always starts from within. Listeners will leave with a renewed understanding that sustainable progress and accountability are rooted in intentional self-elevation, not just checking off to-dos.
Topics Covered in This Episode
- The difference between “doing” and “being” in leadership and personal growth
- How vertical development upgrades your inner operating system for lasting transformation
- Mindset shifts foundational to consistent, resilient leadership
- Self-awareness as the critical early step toward meaningful change
- Practical tools to regulate reactivity and increase intentionality (e.g., meditation, journaling)
- Distinguishing between self-serving and service-oriented leadership for maximizing team impact
About Ryan Gottfredson
Dr. Ryan Gottfredson is a pioneering leadership development expert, best-selling author, and mindset researcher. As a professor at California State University–Fullerton, Ryan blends academic insight with practical strategies to help leaders elevate their thinking and performance. He is the author of acclaimed books including Success Mindsets, The Elevated Leader, and Becoming Better, all of which focus on the power of vertical development and mindset transformation. Through his consulting work, Ryan partners with organizations to create more self-aware, adaptable, and effective leaders by rewiring the way they think.
Connect with Ryan Gottfredson
- Website: https://ryangottfredson.com
- Email: ryan@ryangottfredson.com
Connect with Kimi Walker:
- Visit: earlyaccountability.com
- LinkedIn: Kimi Walker
- Facebook: Kimi Walker
- Instagram: Kimi...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:27):
Kimi Walker here and welcomeback to the next episode of the
Early Accountability Podcast.
Excited to have our guest here today.
We have Ryan, who is a leadershipdevelopment, coach, author,
research and consultant.
He's known for helping organizationsin the development of leaders.
So Ryan, I'm very excited to have youhere with us here today on the show.
(00:48):
Why don't you go ahead and just introduceyourself to the audience, tell how you
got into all the works that you've done.
Tell us a little bit about the books thatyou've authored and what we're gonna get
into it with some early accountability.
Yeah, this will be great.
Thank you so much for havingme and it's great to be with
you if you're listening in.
I as mentioned, I'm Ryan Gottfredson.
I consider myself to have two full-timejobs, one of my full-time jobs as a
(01:10):
professor at California State University,Fullerton where I teach and do research
on leadership, but then I employmy research and translate it into,
the consulting work that I do, Iwork with organizations all over
the world to develop their leaders,primarily through a focus on mindsets.
And as Kimi as you mentioned,I've written three books.
(01:30):
My first book is called Success Mindsets.
My second book is called TheElevated Leader, and my new book
that just came out is calledBecoming Better, the Groundbreaking
Science of Personal Transformation.
Awesome.
Awesome.
So the audience listening, I'm alittle bit under the weather, so
you have to excuse my voice, but weare powering through today because
I'm gonna have, like we said, we'regonna have a successful mindset and
(01:51):
we're gonna make the best of it.
And I'm very excited about the topic.
So leadership is something we haven'thad a lot of here talking about
leadership and just development howdid you get just, let's just start off.
How did you get into this sector?
How did this become of interest for you?
I'm gonna take you back to high school.
I took a class in high school.
I'm not sure it's offered invery many high schools but
(02:12):
I was thrilled to take it.
So I grew up playing sports and theclass that was offered my senior year
of high school was sports psychology.
And I was just thinking,this is gonna be great.
It's gonna help me to be a better athlete,perform better on the court, on the field.
And so I took this class and it endedup being a life changing class for me.
I still remember thebooks that I had to read.
(02:33):
I had to read four books inone semester in high school.
So one of them was StephenR. Covey's seven Habits.
And then I read three books thatwere written by basketball coaches
and they were all about leadership.
So it was one book by Pat Riley,another book by Mike Krzyzewski,
and another book by Rick Najera.
And I remember thinking as a senior ofhigh school, if I could write books like
(02:57):
this for a career, that would be awesome.
But I had no clue how toeven go about doing that.
And so I just put that in the back ofmy mind and went about living life.
And fast forward a couple of yearslater, I was living in Boston,
Massachusetts, and I met a professorat Harvard Business School and
I asked him, what did you teach?
Or what do you teach?
(03:17):
And he said, organizational behavior.
And I said, what's that?
And I don't remember his answer,but I remember what I thought,
which was this sounds like sportspsychology, but for business.
And that's where I was like,I think this is my home.
So I ended up graduating withmy bachelor's degree in finance.
But I went directly into a PhD programin organizational behavior and I
(03:39):
did my dissertation on leadership.
And that provided me the foundationfor everything that I do now.
But if it's okay, let me justshare one of the things that I
learned during my PhD program.
So having to do my dissertationon leadership, I had to review
the last 70 years of leadershipresearch and that was awesome.
(04:01):
I just felt like I was learning so much.
But one of the things that I observedwas that really over the last 70
years, academics have been askingand seeking to answer one primary
question, and that question is, whatdo leaders need to do to be effective?
And I think it's a good question andwe have some good answers to that
(04:22):
question, but that question didn'tsit very well with me because it
feels a little bit shortsighted.
Because to me, leadershipisn't about doing things.
It's not about checking the box, it'sabout being a certain type of person,
being a person that could be a positiveinfluence on the world around them.
And as I was finishing up my PhD,I decided as I transitioned into my
(04:45):
role where I'm at Cal State Fullerton,is I wanna do research that taps
into the being side of leadership.
How do we help leaders become better?
How do we help them to become morepositive in influences a greater
light in the world around them?
And so that's been my area offocus for the last 12 years.
(05:06):
And what, what has led tothe books that I've written.
Okay, awesome.
So I have a question for you.
I have a few.
So here on Early AccountabilityPodcast, we are, self-improvement.
We focus a lot on people whoare in the early or beginning
stages of a new endeavor or evensometimes just sustainability.
So this could be a personal orprofessional shift or change
(05:27):
with your focus on mindset.
How do you help leaders cultivate likethat early accountability mindset with
their teams ensuring like productivity,but I also wanted to say with dealing
with big changes, so having to.
And it doesn't have to be big.
I shouldn't say big because it doesn'thave to be big but we are about like the
(05:48):
change, the pivot, the pause, the move.
How do you help them navigatethat and navigate that with teams?
I know that's something I alwaysstruggle with too or that's why
I got into early about coaching.
I made a lot of changes, but Ihave also done a lot of things too
with like organizational wellness.
So I know a little bit of like theorganizational side, but how do
you come to, from that telling theleader, the person who I guess you say
(06:10):
creates this kind of ripple effects?
We need to do a big change.
We have to have this bigshift in this organization.
How do you help them navigate that?
Yeah, so I'm gonna ask you a question.
All right.
Okay.
So if I want to be effective atnavigating change, navigating
uncertainty, navigating complexity, amI gonna be more successful because of
(06:32):
my knowledge or skills, or because ofmy emotional intelligence, my mindsets
on my emotional regulation ability?
what I wanna say is executionand yes, emotional intelligence.
But I think sometimes too, there alsohas to be some, and I'm coming from a
weight loss or a wellness perspective.
'cause that's what I know the most.
So I'm just thinkingfrom making that change.
(06:53):
So let's say when I, at the beginning,when I also over 120 pounds on my own
there is no secret to losing weight.
Move more, eat less.
It, you need a negative.
Caloric deficit is not anythingout there, but how many people
struggle to do that, right?
So there may be some things I sayin that tweaks that I have learned
(07:15):
had to learn from my nutritionistor my dietician or my doctor.
But the motivation wasto get up and actually do
Yeah,
I feel like,
so you're spot on, right?
yeah.
I'm gonna say, most people, correctme if you think I'm wrong, most
people know how to lose weight
Yes.
It's not a
have the skills to lose weight.
(07:36):
Most do yes.
Okay.
Right And there, yeah, there'ssurely some people that may have
some sort of genetic dispositionor illness or something like that.
So here's what's really a helpfulway for us to think about this.
We have two different sides of ourselves.
We've got what I call our doing side,and this is think about the an X axis.
(07:57):
Our doing side is our talent, ourknowledge, our skills, and our abilities.
We have another side of ourselves,which I call our being side.
Think about the Y axis andour being side is about our
emotional regulation abilities.
It's our mindsets, it's ourcharacter, it's our psyche, it's
our emotional regulation abilities.
And when it comes to, let's justuse losing weight here, for example,
(08:21):
when it comes to one's ability tolose weight, my argument would be.
Is it has to do less with their doingside, with their knowledge and skills.
I think we generally have the knowledgeand skills to lose weight, where the
reason why people struggle to lose weighthas more to do with their being side.
And where we got into this is to askabout navigating change, navigating
(08:42):
uncertainty, navigating complexity.
If we wanna navigate adifficult environment, we
are gonna be more effective.
If we can improve along our being sidemore than we improve along our doing side.
But here's the tricky part aboutthis 99% of our development
efforts focus on our doing side.
(09:03):
You think about our educationsystems, our athletic programs, most
of our organizational developmentefforts is all about gaining new
knowledge and gaining more skills.
And I'm not saying that's not helpful.
We surely need that to a certain degree.
But if we wanna become moreeffective at navigating life, we've
gotta focus on our being side.
And the problem is most people don'trecognize that we have a being side.
(09:27):
Therefore, most people don'tfocus on their being side.
But if we can awaken to our being side,evaluate our altitude along our being
side, then we could be empowered toupgrade and elevate along our being side.
And one of the things that I wouldsuggest coming back to the weight loss
is ultimately losing weight isn't aboutgaining more knowledge and more skills.
(09:50):
It's about changing our relationshipwith both food and ourselves.
We've gotta change ourrelationship ourselves, and
that's all about the being side.
And so if anybody's gonna take anythingaway from what we talk about today,
I hope it's that core idea that ifwe want to elevate, if we want to
(10:11):
improve, if we want to become better,we've gotta focus on the being side.
And it's just, most peopledon't focus on it because they
don't know that it's there.
Do you equate being with doing.
And I guess even going to the example, Iknow what you got, the sports psychology
great too, which is wonder wonderful.
'cause I really usually have nothad this, like I said, I haven't had
(10:32):
leadership, but I don't think I've hadanybody's sports psychology either.
So you have a lot of things that kindof intertwine with stuff I do too
which I love.
So do you equate being with doing.
So I don't, I keep them separate.
And here's a couple ofways to think about it.
Yeah, I it if we have the doing side isa lot like the tools in our tool belt.
That's gonna be helpful.
(10:52):
But what matters the most is theperson wearing the tool belt.
And that's more along thelines of our being side.
And so if we've got this X axis, whichis the doing side, the Y axis, which
is the being side, and if we have twopeople with the same level of doing.
But they are at differentaltitudes along the being side.
(11:14):
What we're gonna find is the person whohas that higher altitude along their
being side, they're gonna get more outof their knowledge and their skills.
They're gonna get more out of their doing,so the way that I'd say it, it again,
it's not bad to focus on the doing andwhat we need to do, but our capacity to
be successful with our doing has moreto do with our being side than it does
(11:38):
our knowledge, skills, and abilities.
And you emphasized a concept calledvertical development in leaders.
One, could you for audience or myself,give us greater understanding of what
you mean by vertical development and whatmindset shifts do you feel are critical?
To maintain consistency in theirpersonal and professional growth,
(11:58):
especially if they're facing newchallenges within what they are leading.
Yeah, question.
So there's multiple layers here, right?
So we've talked about the doing side,we've talked about the being side.
What adult development psychologistshave found is they've discovered
that we can develop in these twodifferent ways, we could develop
along our doing side, and that's whatthey call horizontal development.
(12:21):
That's why I say we couldcall this the X axis, right?
It's horizontal development, but thenvertical development is about improving
along the Y axis, our being side.
And so there are these two differentways to develop and so those are
some term, that's some terminology.
That I'm, it's fairly new.
It's only about a decade old,but it's starting to catch on.
(12:43):
So when we in organizations,they're starting to realize we have
largely been focusing on downloadingnew apps onto people's iPads.
But what we've gotta focus on isnot on downloading the apps, but
on upgrading the operating system.
And so then, the second part ofyour question was about mindsets.
So mindsets is one of the best thingsfor us to focus on if we wanna elevate
(13:07):
along our being side, because ourmindsets play a crucial role in our
body's internal operating system.
So let me give you some examples of this.
So Kimi, if it's okay, let meask you, how do you think most
people make meaning of failure?
Something to avoid orsomething to approach
Avoid,
avoid, right?
Why do you think, why would you saymost people will try to avoid failure?
(13:31):
'Cause it doesn't feel good,
It doesn't feel good.
It makes us feel bad, right?
And we may feel some shame and it may bea sign that we lack competence, right?
So it's natural for most people to want toavoid failure, but failure may be the most
important thing for us to learn and grow.
And I would, I imagine youwould agree with me, Kimi.
(13:52):
I have learned and grown more frommy failures than any of my successes.
So our body can make meaning offailure as something to avoid.
It can also make meaning of failureas an opportunity to learn and grow.
Who do you think is gonna bemore successful in their life?
Somebody who always seeks toavoid failure, or somebody who's
willing to try new things and stepinto the potential of failure.
(14:17):
I think definitely the people whotake, try to find the lesson in it,
Yeah.
So what this is, what we're actuallygauging is actually, this is one way to
gauge one's altitude along our being side.
If we aren't very willing to stepinto failure, that means our bodies
are wired for self-protection.
And that's a sign that our body,our internal operating system
(14:40):
operates at a lower being side level.
But if we have the capacity to stepinto learning zone challenges where
it might be ripe for us to fail,that means that we're gonna operate
more, is what I call a value creator.
And so here's some key differenceswhen we think about our
altitude along our being side.
(15:00):
When our bodies are wired more for shortterm self-protection, that's a signal
we operate at a lower being side level.
But if our bodies are willing to stepinto short term discomfort, like failure
in an effort to learn and grow and createvalue in the long term, that's a signal
that we're higher up on our being side.
(15:23):
And so what we've just talked about.
Is the difference between, and Iimagine most people have heard this
terminology, the difference betweena fixed mindset and a growth mindset.
So a fixed mindset is more self-protectivein the short term it's a signal of a lower
being side altitude, a growth mindset.
It is a willingness to step intoshort-term discomfort and is an indication
(15:45):
that we're higher up on our being side.
So does that hopefully integratethese ideas between vertical
development and then mindsets.
'cause as we elevate our mindsets, we'realso elevating along our being side.
That makes it makes a lot of sense.
So I wanna talk, it's starting tocome together as I see what you
say about, your being and the axis.
(16:08):
I wanna talk about foundationalmindsets and so well from success
mindsets and becoming better.
What are some foundational skillsthat are important for people to have?
One, it all starts with self-awareness.
The more you know, we've gottabecome aware of our mindsets.
So one of the things that I do when Igo and I speak to groups, I'll ask the
(16:31):
audience how many of you think you have.
Really high quality mindsets.
I get almost everybody that raisestheir hand, but I also have a
personal mindset assessment.
In fact, it's free on my website@ryangottfredson.com, but I've had
over fifty thousand people take mymindset assessment and across those
(16:51):
50,000 people, or what we do is withthis mindset assessment is we assess
the quality of our mindsets acrossfour different sets of mindsets.
Fixed in growth is one of the foursets of mindsets, and so what we
found across the 50,000 people whohave taken this mindset assessment.
Only 2.5% are in the top quartilefor all four sets of mindsets.
(17:13):
So what I've learned is that most ofus think that we have good or high
quality mindsets, but in reality wedon't because all of us have some.
Self-protective strategies built intoour body because of either our life's
experience or our current culture.
And so that this is inherently achallenge because we, if we want to
(17:36):
improve our mindsets, we first haveto awaken to the fact that we may not
have the most high quality mindsets.
Okay, so I have I guess topiggyback off of that, so I have
a, like more leadership one.
So an elevated leader.
An elevated leader, your book.
You discuss profoundleadership principles.
How do these principlescontribute to a leader's increased
(17:59):
visibility and influence.
I know influence is really importantensuring that their efforts are
consistently recognized, but alsothat they're not like minimizing
the efforts of those who are makingeverything possible, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
Like not oh, I'm here and I'min the spotlight, but hey, what
about all these people who aredoing all this on the backside?
(18:21):
In a way, and I'll bring this to lifehere in just a second, but in a way you're
recognizing a lot of leaders lead from aposition of, Hey, look at me like this is
a status thing for me to become a leader.
But I think we would allagree the very best leaders.
Don't lead for a self-serving motive.
They lead in a manner in which they areserving something bigger than themselves.
(18:44):
And so let me bring this to life.
So Kimi, I'm gonna, I'm gonnagive you four different desires.
You tell me whether or not societysays these are good or bad desires.
Is that okay?
Okay.
The desires are to look good, beright, avoid problems, and get ahead.
Do you think, does society saythese are good or bad desires?
All good.
So society says these are good becausewho likes to look bad, be wrong,
(19:07):
get passed up and have problems?
Nobody, right?
But when someone has these desires tolook good, be right, avoid problems,
and get ahead, where's their focus?
Self.
Themselves.
And so these four desires that I justbrought up are actually fueled by
the more self-protective mindsets.
And when I first learned about mindsetsfor myself, I was one of these people who
(19:31):
said, oh yeah, I've got good mindsets.
But the more I started to learnabout mindsets, I started to realize.
These desires really resonatewith me, which says something
about the quality of my mindsets.
And so what I've come to learn isthat, as I've studied mindsets,
is there's better desires to have.
So instead of a focus on looking good,we should focus on learning and growing.
(19:53):
Instead of focusing on being right,we should be focused on finding truth.
Instead of avoiding problems, we shouldbe focused on fulfilling a purpose.
And instead of avoiding getting passed up,we should be focused on lifting others.
And if we could be focused on learningand growing finding truth, fulfilling a
purpose, and lifting others, we're gonnalead from a place that is inspiring.
(20:18):
As opposed to self-serving.
And at the end of the day, aswe shift our mindsets, we become
somebody that others want to follow.
And at the end of the day, that'sthe number one lesson of leadership.
If we wanna be effective leaders,we've got to become somebody
that others want to follow.
And it all starts with mindsets.
(20:39):
That's good.
That's super good.
Okay.
So Ryan on the early Accountabilitypodcast, we focus on taking action.
We need it I have startedto more like intertwine that
sometimes we need to pause, right?
And
sure.
Yeah.
the action we need to takeinstead of just always doing.
So from a mindset perspective, what isone often overlooked, you would say early
(21:00):
step that could significantly improve aleader or even I feel like an individuals
communication when it comes to teamcommitment or just consistent action.
Yeah.
I think a good way for us to, so I'mgonna answer your question, but I'm gonna
say a good way for us to gauge our beingside altitude is by asking the question,
(21:21):
how quickly, how reactive is my body?
How quickly do I react?
To situations in my environment.
So for example, if I get cut off drivingon the freeway, am I quick to react or am
I more intentional about how I respond?
So the more reactive our bodyis, that's a sign that we're
(21:41):
lower on our being side altitude.
So the reason why Ibring this up is because.
If we want to elevate along ourbeing side, we've gotta figure
out a way to lessen our reactivityand improve our intentionality.
And so what are some tacticsthat we could do to do this?
At a most basic level, soI'm gonna call this a surface
(22:03):
level strategy is meditating.
Meditating is one of the mostimportant things that we could do for
helping us to develop the capacity.
To better regulate our body's nervoussystem, because the more that we
can regulate our body's nervoussystem, the less reactive we will be
and the more intentional we'll be.
So things like meditation, yogagratitude, journaling, even cold
(22:27):
plunging, these are all kind of surfacelevel tactics that have been proven.
To help us better be able toregulate our body's nervous system.
So I think that's a, I'm gonnacall that a starter level strategy.
I'm gonna say some deeper levelstrategies are focusing on mindsets,
and that's largely where I play.
There's even deepest levelstrategies and these are interesting.
(22:51):
These oftentimes we need a professionalto help us out, but this involves
a focus on healing our body.
So if we've got trauma in our past.
That means doing work to heal our trauma.
If we've got some neurodivergencyissues like for example, ADHD, that
might mean that we need certaintherapies that are supportive of
(23:13):
helping people to rise above thelimitations of those neuro divergencies.
So an example of a form of therapy thatdoes that is called neurofeedback therapy.
It's literally designedto rewire our mind.
So those are some reallydeep level strategies.
I'm not gonna suggest we start there,but those surface level strategies
are a perfect place to start.
(23:33):
Meta meditating, gratitude journaling,yoga, cold plunges, et cetera.
I definitely believe in mindfulness.
I've done some mindfulness trainingsmyself participated in some and done some
and implemented some too in schools withstudents and there's a lot that goes into
mindfulness that really just helps withthat ability to respond and not react.
So I do wanna ask a question oneabout, piggyback off what we're
(23:56):
talking, what you're talking aboutwith re responding and not reacting.
What are techniques or how would youtell a leader, or a person in leadership,
or who's responsible for a team?
In situations where it feels likeyou need a reaction, like there is
something, an emergency has happenedor it's very pressing and you need
a very immediate kind of solution.
(24:16):
Even if you need some time toget like the long-term solution.
I don't know if that makes any sense,but like we need something right now.
This is, the team is bleeding.
Like we need you to come in.
You have to come in rightnow, you have to do something.
Those are situations where I guess to me,it feels like I, you do have to react,
Yeah.
Our body feels the urgencyof that situation, right?
(24:38):
But the best leaders tryto stay out of urgent mode.
And they stay in important mode.
And so I'm gonna steal an idea.
From there, there's thisfounder and conductor of the
Boston Philharmonic Orchestra.
His name is Benjamin Zander.
He's got a great TED Talk.
He's also caught, got a greatbook called The Art of Possibility
(24:58):
that he wrote with his wife.
And he has a fantastic, somefantastic advice for this question.
And he says like, when a fire popsup, we don't race to put it out.
What he encouraged us to do is to sitback and say, how fascinating, right?
So by, by saying how fascinating it putsus in a mental place where it's, we're
(25:22):
not taking ourselves too seriously.
And I think that's really important.
We're also creating space between usand that urgency, because what I see
a lot of leaders do is when that firepops up, they race to put it out.
Rarely is the leader, the bestperson to put out the fire.
And so with the best leaders, when thatfire pops up, they say How fascinating.
(25:46):
And then that allows them to getinto the right mindset to say,
okay, there's a fire over here.
But is that my biggest pressing issue?
Or my most importantissue 'cause it may not.
So we may wanna let that fire burn,or we get to ask the question who's
the best person to put out that fire?
And so I think that just by askingthat or by stating how fascinating,
(26:09):
it allows us to create the appropriatepsychological space to best address that
issue from a more strategic perspectiveas opposed to a reactive perspective.
Awesome.
Awesome.
I like that.
That's a great perspectivea great perspective on it.
So Ryan, how can the audience find outmore about your offerings, your new book?
Tell us more about your new book,where they can go to purchase it.
(26:31):
The formats it's available in,and just where we can find out
more about all of your offerings.
Yeah.
Thanks for asking.
So I, yeah, I encourage anybody.
Who wants to become better tograb my new book called Becoming
Better, the Groundbreaking Scienceof Personal Transformation.
You could find that in any major book,retailers a paperback ebook, an audiobook.
But one of the things that you shouldget a sense of given our what, the
(26:55):
things that we've talked about.
Is becoming better allstarts with self-awareness.
And so I've got some tools on mywebsite, some self-assessments,
a mindset assessment, a verticaldevelopment assessment, and if you go
to my website, take those assessments.
And if you're interested.
Hit me up on social media.
I'm primarily on LinkedIn, but I'mreally on all social media platforms.
(27:15):
Hit me up on social media and say,I took your assessment and I'm happy
to jump on a call to talk throughyour individual results with you.
I just appreciate you listening intothis and want to give back to you.
So if that's a way that you wantto connect with me, I'd love to do
where can they find you on the web?
ryangottfredson.com
So that's a mouthful, butI'll let you look it up.
It's
We'll put it in, we'll put it in theshow notes definitely so the audience
(27:38):
can definitely get linked to you.
We'll definitely have thebooks in the show notes.
I'm gonna do the audioversion of the book.
I love audio books, so I'm definitelyso ready to listen to becoming better.
I'm gonna start on that asap.
But yes, Ryan, thank you somuch for coming on the show.
We really appreciate you comingand bringing your expertise.
I've learned a lot you gave us a lotof gems leaders and just in life.
(28:00):
So thank you so much for coming on theshow until the audience, until next time.
Kimi Walker here and welcomeback to the next episode of the
Early Accountability Podcast.
Excited to have our guest here today.
We have Ryan, who is a leadershipdevelopment, coach, author,
research and consultant.
He's known for helping organizationsin the development of leaders.
So Ryan, I'm very excited to have youhere with us here today on the show.
(00:48):
Why don't you go ahead and just introduceyourself to the audience, tell how you
got into all the works that you've done.
Tell us a little bit about the books thatyou've authored and what we're gonna get
into it with some early accountability.
Yeah, this will be great.
Thank you so much for havingme and it's great to be with
you if you're listening in.
I as mentioned, I'm Ryan Gottfredson.
I consider myself to have two full-timejobs, one of my full-time jobs as a
(01:10):
professor at California State University,Fullerton where I teach and do research
on leadership, but then I employmy research and translate it into,
the consulting work that I do, Iwork with organizations all over
the world to develop their leaders,primarily through a focus on mindsets.
And as Kimi as you mentioned,I've written three books.
(01:30):
My first book is called Success Mindsets.
My second book is called TheElevated Leader, and my new book
that just came out is calledBecoming Better, the Groundbreaking
Science of Personal Transformation.
Awesome.
Awesome.
So the audience listening, I'm alittle bit under the weather, so
you have to excuse my voice, but weare powering through today because
I'm gonna have, like we said, we'regonna have a successful mindset and
(01:51):
we're gonna make the best of it.
And I'm very excited about the topic.
So leadership is something we haven'thad a lot of here talking about
leadership and just development howdid you get just, let's just start off.
How did you get into this sector?
How did this become of interest for you?
I'm gonna take you back to high school.
I took a class in high school.
I'm not sure it's offered invery many high schools but
(02:12):
I was thrilled to take it.
So I grew up playing sports and theclass that was offered my senior year
of high school was sports psychology.
And I was just thinking,this is gonna be great.
It's gonna help me to be a better athlete,perform better on the court, on the field.
And so I took this class and it endedup being a life changing class for me.
I still remember thebooks that I had to read.
(02:33):
I had to read four books inone semester in high school.
So one of them was StephenR. Covey's seven Habits.
And then I read three books thatwere written by basketball coaches
and they were all about leadership.
So it was one book by Pat Riley,another book by Mike Krzyzewski,
and another book by Rick Najera.
And I remember thinking as a senior ofhigh school, if I could write books like
(02:57):
this for a career, that would be awesome.
But I had no clue how toeven go about doing that.
And so I just put that in the back ofmy mind and went about living life.
And fast forward a couple of yearslater, I was living in Boston,
Massachusetts, and I met a professorat Harvard Business School and
I asked him, what did you teach?
Or what do you teach?
(03:17):
And he said, organizational behavior.
And I said, what's that?
And I don't remember his answer,but I remember what I thought,
which was this sounds like sportspsychology, but for business.
And that's where I was like,I think this is my home.
So I ended up graduating withmy bachelor's degree in finance.
But I went directly into a PhD programin organizational behavior and I
(03:39):
did my dissertation on leadership.
And that provided me the foundationfor everything that I do now.
But if it's okay, let me justshare one of the things that I
learned during my PhD program.
So having to do my dissertationon leadership, I had to review
the last 70 years of leadershipresearch and that was awesome.
(04:01):
I just felt like I was learning so much.
But one of the things that I observedwas that really over the last 70
years, academics have been askingand seeking to answer one primary
question, and that question is, whatdo leaders need to do to be effective?
And I think it's a good question andwe have some good answers to that
(04:22):
question, but that question didn'tsit very well with me because it
feels a little bit shortsighted.
Because to me, leadershipisn't about doing things.
It's not about checking the box, it'sabout being a certain type of person,
being a person that could be a positiveinfluence on the world around them.
And as I was finishing up my PhD,I decided as I transitioned into my
(04:45):
role where I'm at Cal State Fullerton,is I wanna do research that taps
into the being side of leadership.
How do we help leaders become better?
How do we help them to become morepositive in influences a greater
light in the world around them?
And so that's been my area offocus for the last 12 years.
(05:06):
And what, what has led tothe books that I've written.
Okay, awesome.
So I have a question for you.
I have a few.
So here on Early AccountabilityPodcast, we are, self-improvement.
We focus a lot on people whoare in the early or beginning
stages of a new endeavor or evensometimes just sustainability.
So this could be a personal orprofessional shift or change
(05:27):
with your focus on mindset.
How do you help leaders cultivate likethat early accountability mindset with
their teams ensuring like productivity,but I also wanted to say with dealing
with big changes, so having to.
And it doesn't have to be big.
I shouldn't say big because it doesn'thave to be big but we are about like the
(05:48):
change, the pivot, the pause, the move.
How do you help them navigatethat and navigate that with teams?
I know that's something I alwaysstruggle with too or that's why
I got into early about coaching.
I made a lot of changes, but Ihave also done a lot of things too
with like organizational wellness.
So I know a little bit of like theorganizational side, but how do
you come to, from that telling theleader, the person who I guess you say
(06:10):
creates this kind of ripple effects?
We need to do a big change.
We have to have this bigshift in this organization.
How do you help them navigate that?
Yeah, so I'm gonna ask you a question.
All right.
Okay.
So if I want to be effective atnavigating change, navigating
uncertainty, navigating complexity, amI gonna be more successful because of
(06:32):
my knowledge or skills, or because ofmy emotional intelligence, my mindsets
on my emotional regulation ability?
what I wanna say is executionand yes, emotional intelligence.
But I think sometimes too, there alsohas to be some, and I'm coming from a
weight loss or a wellness perspective.
'cause that's what I know the most.
So I'm just thinkingfrom making that change.
(06:53):
So let's say when I, at the beginning,when I also over 120 pounds on my own
there is no secret to losing weight.
Move more, eat less.
It, you need a negative.
Caloric deficit is not anythingout there, but how many people
struggle to do that, right?
So there may be some things I sayin that tweaks that I have learned
(07:15):
had to learn from my nutritionistor my dietician or my doctor.
But the motivation wasto get up and actually do
Yeah,
I feel like,
so you're spot on, right?
yeah.
I'm gonna say, most people, correctme if you think I'm wrong, most
people know how to lose weight
Yes.
It's not a
have the skills to lose weight.
(07:36):
Most do yes.
Okay.
Right And there, yeah, there'ssurely some people that may have
some sort of genetic dispositionor illness or something like that.
So here's what's really a helpfulway for us to think about this.
We have two different sides of ourselves.
We've got what I call our doing side,and this is think about the an X axis.
(07:57):
Our doing side is our talent, ourknowledge, our skills, and our abilities.
We have another side of ourselves,which I call our being side.
Think about the Y axis andour being side is about our
emotional regulation abilities.
It's our mindsets, it's ourcharacter, it's our psyche, it's
our emotional regulation abilities.
And when it comes to, let's justuse losing weight here, for example,
(08:21):
when it comes to one's ability tolose weight, my argument would be.
Is it has to do less with their doingside, with their knowledge and skills.
I think we generally have the knowledgeand skills to lose weight, where the
reason why people struggle to lose weighthas more to do with their being side.
And where we got into this is to askabout navigating change, navigating
(08:42):
uncertainty, navigating complexity.
If we wanna navigate adifficult environment, we
are gonna be more effective.
If we can improve along our being sidemore than we improve along our doing side.
But here's the tricky part aboutthis 99% of our development
efforts focus on our doing side.
(09:03):
You think about our educationsystems, our athletic programs, most
of our organizational developmentefforts is all about gaining new
knowledge and gaining more skills.
And I'm not saying that's not helpful.
We surely need that to a certain degree.
But if we wanna become moreeffective at navigating life, we've
gotta focus on our being side.
And the problem is most people don'trecognize that we have a being side.
(09:27):
Therefore, most people don'tfocus on their being side.
But if we can awaken to our being side,evaluate our altitude along our being
side, then we could be empowered toupgrade and elevate along our being side.
And one of the things that I wouldsuggest coming back to the weight loss
is ultimately losing weight isn't aboutgaining more knowledge and more skills.
(09:50):
It's about changing our relationshipwith both food and ourselves.
We've gotta change ourrelationship ourselves, and
that's all about the being side.
And so if anybody's gonna take anythingaway from what we talk about today,
I hope it's that core idea that ifwe want to elevate, if we want to
(10:11):
improve, if we want to become better,we've gotta focus on the being side.
And it's just, most peopledon't focus on it because they
don't know that it's there.
Do you equate being with doing.
And I guess even going to the example, Iknow what you got, the sports psychology
great too, which is wonder wonderful.
'cause I really usually have nothad this, like I said, I haven't had
(10:32):
leadership, but I don't think I've hadanybody's sports psychology either.
So you have a lot of things that kindof intertwine with stuff I do too
which I love.
So do you equate being with doing.
So I don't, I keep them separate.
And here's a couple ofways to think about it.
Yeah, I it if we have the doing side isa lot like the tools in our tool belt.
That's gonna be helpful.
(10:52):
But what matters the most is theperson wearing the tool belt.
And that's more along thelines of our being side.
And so if we've got this X axis, whichis the doing side, the Y axis, which
is the being side, and if we have twopeople with the same level of doing.
But they are at differentaltitudes along the being side.
(11:14):
What we're gonna find is the person whohas that higher altitude along their
being side, they're gonna get more outof their knowledge and their skills.
They're gonna get more out of their doing,so the way that I'd say it, it again,
it's not bad to focus on the doing andwhat we need to do, but our capacity to
be successful with our doing has moreto do with our being side than it does
(11:38):
our knowledge, skills, and abilities.
And you emphasized a concept calledvertical development in leaders.
One, could you for audience or myself,give us greater understanding of what
you mean by vertical development and whatmindset shifts do you feel are critical?
To maintain consistency in theirpersonal and professional growth,
(11:58):
especially if they're facing newchallenges within what they are leading.
Yeah, question.
So there's multiple layers here, right?
So we've talked about the doing side,we've talked about the being side.
What adult development psychologistshave found is they've discovered
that we can develop in these twodifferent ways, we could develop
along our doing side, and that's whatthey call horizontal development.
(12:21):
That's why I say we couldcall this the X axis, right?
It's horizontal development, but thenvertical development is about improving
along the Y axis, our being side.
And so there are these two differentways to develop and so those are
some term, that's some terminology.
That I'm, it's fairly new.
It's only about a decade old,but it's starting to catch on.
(12:43):
So when we in organizations,they're starting to realize we have
largely been focusing on downloadingnew apps onto people's iPads.
But what we've gotta focus on isnot on downloading the apps, but
on upgrading the operating system.
And so then, the second part ofyour question was about mindsets.
So mindsets is one of the best thingsfor us to focus on if we wanna elevate
(13:07):
along our being side, because ourmindsets play a crucial role in our
body's internal operating system.
So let me give you some examples of this.
So Kimi, if it's okay, let meask you, how do you think most
people make meaning of failure?
Something to avoid orsomething to approach
Avoid,
avoid, right?
Why do you think, why would you saymost people will try to avoid failure?
(13:31):
'Cause it doesn't feel good,
It doesn't feel good.
It makes us feel bad, right?
And we may feel some shame and it may bea sign that we lack competence, right?
So it's natural for most people to want toavoid failure, but failure may be the most
important thing for us to learn and grow.
And I would, I imagine youwould agree with me, Kimi.
(13:52):
I have learned and grown more frommy failures than any of my successes.
So our body can make meaning offailure as something to avoid.
It can also make meaning of failureas an opportunity to learn and grow.
Who do you think is gonna bemore successful in their life?
Somebody who always seeks toavoid failure, or somebody who's
willing to try new things and stepinto the potential of failure.
(14:17):
I think definitely the people whotake, try to find the lesson in it,
Yeah.
So what this is, what we're actuallygauging is actually, this is one way to
gauge one's altitude along our being side.
If we aren't very willing to stepinto failure, that means our bodies
are wired for self-protection.
And that's a sign that our body,our internal operating system
(14:40):
operates at a lower being side level.
But if we have the capacity to stepinto learning zone challenges where
it might be ripe for us to fail,that means that we're gonna operate
more, is what I call a value creator.
And so here's some key differenceswhen we think about our
altitude along our being side.
(15:00):
When our bodies are wired more for shortterm self-protection, that's a signal
we operate at a lower being side level.
But if our bodies are willing to stepinto short term discomfort, like failure
in an effort to learn and grow and createvalue in the long term, that's a signal
that we're higher up on our being side.
(15:23):
And so what we've just talked about.
Is the difference between, and Iimagine most people have heard this
terminology, the difference betweena fixed mindset and a growth mindset.
So a fixed mindset is more self-protectivein the short term it's a signal of a lower
being side altitude, a growth mindset.
It is a willingness to step intoshort-term discomfort and is an indication
(15:45):
that we're higher up on our being side.
So does that hopefully integratethese ideas between vertical
development and then mindsets.
'cause as we elevate our mindsets, we'realso elevating along our being side.
That makes it makes a lot of sense.
So I wanna talk, it's starting tocome together as I see what you
say about, your being and the axis.
(16:08):
I wanna talk about foundationalmindsets and so well from success
mindsets and becoming better.
What are some foundational skillsthat are important for people to have?
One, it all starts with self-awareness.
The more you know, we've gottabecome aware of our mindsets.
So one of the things that I do when Igo and I speak to groups, I'll ask the
(16:31):
audience how many of you think you have.
Really high quality mindsets.
I get almost everybody that raisestheir hand, but I also have a
personal mindset assessment.
In fact, it's free on my website@ryangottfredson.com, but I've had
over fifty thousand people take mymindset assessment and across those
(16:51):
50,000 people, or what we do is withthis mindset assessment is we assess
the quality of our mindsets acrossfour different sets of mindsets.
Fixed in growth is one of the foursets of mindsets, and so what we
found across the 50,000 people whohave taken this mindset assessment.
Only 2.5% are in the top quartilefor all four sets of mindsets.
(17:13):
So what I've learned is that most ofus think that we have good or high
quality mindsets, but in reality wedon't because all of us have some.
Self-protective strategies built intoour body because of either our life's
experience or our current culture.
And so that this is inherently achallenge because we, if we want to
(17:36):
improve our mindsets, we first haveto awaken to the fact that we may not
have the most high quality mindsets.
Okay, so I have I guess topiggyback off of that, so I have
a, like more leadership one.
So an elevated leader.
An elevated leader, your book.
You discuss profoundleadership principles.
How do these principlescontribute to a leader's increased
(17:59):
visibility and influence.
I know influence is really importantensuring that their efforts are
consistently recognized, but alsothat they're not like minimizing
the efforts of those who are makingeverything possible, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
Like not oh, I'm here and I'min the spotlight, but hey, what
about all these people who aredoing all this on the backside?
(18:21):
In a way, and I'll bring this to lifehere in just a second, but in a way you're
recognizing a lot of leaders lead from aposition of, Hey, look at me like this is
a status thing for me to become a leader.
But I think we would allagree the very best leaders.
Don't lead for a self-serving motive.
They lead in a manner in which they areserving something bigger than themselves.
(18:44):
And so let me bring this to life.
So Kimi, I'm gonna, I'm gonnagive you four different desires.
You tell me whether or not societysays these are good or bad desires.
Is that okay?
Okay.
The desires are to look good, beright, avoid problems, and get ahead.
Do you think, does society saythese are good or bad desires?
All good.
So society says these are good becausewho likes to look bad, be wrong,
(19:07):
get passed up and have problems?
Nobody, right?
But when someone has these desires tolook good, be right, avoid problems,
and get ahead, where's their focus?
Self.
Themselves.
And so these four desires that I justbrought up are actually fueled by
the more self-protective mindsets.
And when I first learned about mindsetsfor myself, I was one of these people who
(19:31):
said, oh yeah, I've got good mindsets.
But the more I started to learnabout mindsets, I started to realize.
These desires really resonatewith me, which says something
about the quality of my mindsets.
And so what I've come to learn isthat, as I've studied mindsets,
is there's better desires to have.
So instead of a focus on looking good,we should focus on learning and growing.
(19:53):
Instead of focusing on being right,we should be focused on finding truth.
Instead of avoiding problems, we shouldbe focused on fulfilling a purpose.
And instead of avoiding getting passed up,we should be focused on lifting others.
And if we could be focused on learningand growing finding truth, fulfilling a
purpose, and lifting others, we're gonnalead from a place that is inspiring.
(20:18):
As opposed to self-serving.
And at the end of the day, aswe shift our mindsets, we become
somebody that others want to follow.
And at the end of the day, that'sthe number one lesson of leadership.
If we wanna be effective leaders,we've got to become somebody
that others want to follow.
And it all starts with mindsets.
(20:39):
That's good.
That's super good.
Okay.
So Ryan on the early Accountabilitypodcast, we focus on taking action.
We need it I have startedto more like intertwine that
sometimes we need to pause, right?
And
sure.
Yeah.
the action we need to takeinstead of just always doing.
So from a mindset perspective, what isone often overlooked, you would say early
(21:00):
step that could significantly improve aleader or even I feel like an individuals
communication when it comes to teamcommitment or just consistent action.
Yeah.
I think a good way for us to, so I'mgonna answer your question, but I'm gonna
say a good way for us to gauge our beingside altitude is by asking the question,
(21:21):
how quickly, how reactive is my body?
How quickly do I react?
To situations in my environment.
So for example, if I get cut off drivingon the freeway, am I quick to react or am
I more intentional about how I respond?
So the more reactive our bodyis, that's a sign that we're
(21:41):
lower on our being side altitude.
So the reason why Ibring this up is because.
If we want to elevate along ourbeing side, we've gotta figure
out a way to lessen our reactivityand improve our intentionality.
And so what are some tacticsthat we could do to do this?
At a most basic level, soI'm gonna call this a surface
(22:03):
level strategy is meditating.
Meditating is one of the mostimportant things that we could do for
helping us to develop the capacity.
To better regulate our body's nervoussystem, because the more that we
can regulate our body's nervoussystem, the less reactive we will be
and the more intentional we'll be.
So things like meditation, yogagratitude, journaling, even cold
(22:27):
plunging, these are all kind of surfacelevel tactics that have been proven.
To help us better be able toregulate our body's nervous system.
So I think that's a, I'm gonnacall that a starter level strategy.
I'm gonna say some deeper levelstrategies are focusing on mindsets,
and that's largely where I play.
There's even deepest levelstrategies and these are interesting.
(22:51):
These oftentimes we need a professionalto help us out, but this involves
a focus on healing our body.
So if we've got trauma in our past.
That means doing work to heal our trauma.
If we've got some neurodivergencyissues like for example, ADHD, that
might mean that we need certaintherapies that are supportive of
(23:13):
helping people to rise above thelimitations of those neuro divergencies.
So an example of a form of therapy thatdoes that is called neurofeedback therapy.
It's literally designedto rewire our mind.
So those are some reallydeep level strategies.
I'm not gonna suggest we start there,but those surface level strategies
are a perfect place to start.
(23:33):
Meta meditating, gratitude journaling,yoga, cold plunges, et cetera.
I definitely believe in mindfulness.
I've done some mindfulness trainingsmyself participated in some and done some
and implemented some too in schools withstudents and there's a lot that goes into
mindfulness that really just helps withthat ability to respond and not react.
So I do wanna ask a question oneabout, piggyback off what we're
(23:56):
talking, what you're talking aboutwith re responding and not reacting.
What are techniques or how would youtell a leader, or a person in leadership,
or who's responsible for a team?
In situations where it feels likeyou need a reaction, like there is
something, an emergency has happenedor it's very pressing and you need
a very immediate kind of solution.
(24:16):
Even if you need some time toget like the long-term solution.
I don't know if that makes any sense,but like we need something right now.
This is, the team is bleeding.
Like we need you to come in.
You have to come in rightnow, you have to do something.
Those are situations where I guess to me,it feels like I, you do have to react,
Yeah.
Our body feels the urgencyof that situation, right?
(24:38):
But the best leaders tryto stay out of urgent mode.
And they stay in important mode.
And so I'm gonna steal an idea.
From there, there's thisfounder and conductor of the
Boston Philharmonic Orchestra.
His name is Benjamin Zander.
He's got a great TED Talk.
He's also caught, got a greatbook called The Art of Possibility
(24:58):
that he wrote with his wife.
And he has a fantastic, somefantastic advice for this question.
And he says like, when a fire popsup, we don't race to put it out.
What he encouraged us to do is to sitback and say, how fascinating, right?
So by, by saying how fascinating it putsus in a mental place where it's, we're
(25:22):
not taking ourselves too seriously.
And I think that's really important.
We're also creating space between usand that urgency, because what I see
a lot of leaders do is when that firepops up, they race to put it out.
Rarely is the leader, the bestperson to put out the fire.
And so with the best leaders, when thatfire pops up, they say How fascinating.
(25:46):
And then that allows them to getinto the right mindset to say,
okay, there's a fire over here.
But is that my biggest pressing issue?
Or my most importantissue 'cause it may not.
So we may wanna let that fire burn,or we get to ask the question who's
the best person to put out that fire?
And so I think that just by askingthat or by stating how fascinating,
(26:09):
it allows us to create the appropriatepsychological space to best address that
issue from a more strategic perspectiveas opposed to a reactive perspective.
Awesome.
Awesome.
I like that.
That's a great perspectivea great perspective on it.
So Ryan, how can the audience find outmore about your offerings, your new book?
Tell us more about your new book,where they can go to purchase it.
(26:31):
The formats it's available in,and just where we can find out
more about all of your offerings.
Yeah.
Thanks for asking.
So I, yeah, I encourage anybody.
Who wants to become better tograb my new book called Becoming
Better, the Groundbreaking Scienceof Personal Transformation.
You could find that in any major book,retailers a paperback ebook, an audiobook.
But one of the things that you shouldget a sense of given our what, the
(26:55):
things that we've talked about.
Is becoming better allstarts with self-awareness.
And so I've got some tools on mywebsite, some self-assessments,
a mindset assessment, a verticaldevelopment assessment, and if you go
to my website, take those assessments.
And if you're interested.
Hit me up on social media.
I'm primarily on LinkedIn, but I'mreally on all social media platforms.
(27:15):
Hit me up on social media and say,I took your assessment and I'm happy
to jump on a call to talk throughyour individual results with you.
I just appreciate you listening intothis and want to give back to you.
So if that's a way that you wantto connect with me, I'd love to do
where can they find you on the web?
ryangottfredson.com
So that's a mouthful, butI'll let you look it up.
It's
We'll put it in, we'll put it in theshow notes definitely so the audience
(27:38):
can definitely get linked to you.
We'll definitely have thebooks in the show notes.
I'm gonna do the audioversion of the book.
I love audio books, so I'm definitelyso ready to listen to becoming better.
I'm gonna start on that asap.
But yes, Ryan, thank you somuch for coming on the show.
We really appreciate you comingand bringing your expertise.
I've learned a lot you gave us a lotof gems leaders and just in life.
(28:00):
So thank you so much for coming on theshow until the audience, until next time.
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For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.