March 20, 2025 • 38 mins
Nathan Stuck, award-winning B Corp leader and founder of Profitable Purpose Consulting, explores how businesses can navigate climate action and sustainability in today's increasingly polarized world.
• Moving beyond capitalism burnout to find purpose-driven business models
• Evolution of the B Corp movement from "business as a force for good" to greater advocacy
• Navigating political polarization while maintaining sustainability commitments
• Making the business case for diversity and inclusion initiatives when terminology becomes controversial
• Using the B Impact Assessment as a framework even for companies not seeking certification
• Focusing on measurable outcomes rather than terminology or labels
• Building intentionality into business models from the start rather than retrofitting later
• The rigorous B Corp certification process and common challenges companies face
Connect with Nathan on LinkedIn or visit ProfitablePurposeConsulting.com to learn more about implementing sustainable business practices.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to another episode of Sustainability
Unveiled, where we explore theintersection of business,
sustainability and innovation.
Today, we're tackling acritical and complex topic how
do we navigate climate action inan increasingly polarized world
?
Our guest today is someone whohas dedicated his career to
(00:28):
proving that business can be aforce for good.
Nathan Stuck is anaward-winning leader in the B
Corp movement, founder ofProfitable Purpose Consulting
and a driving force behind BeLocal Georgia and the BLD
Southeast Conference.
He's worked on over 25 B Corpcertifications, teaches an MBA
course on B Corp at theUniversity of Georgia and is a
(00:51):
sought-after speaker and authorof Happy Monday Designing your
Dream Career.
Nathan brings deep expertise inbuilding purpose-driven
business, but he's also here tohave a real, honest conversation
about the challenges we face inpushing sustainability forward,
especially in today's dividedlandscape.
From cancel culture tocollaboration, we're diving into
(01:14):
the nuances of what it takes tobridge divides and keep the
momentum going.
Hey, then, welcome toSustainability Unveiled.
Thank you for being on with us.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thanks for having me, jessica, always excited to well
talk sustainability.
Maybe unveil something.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Exactly, yes.
Yes, now we have a lot to getinto today, but before we get
into the meat of ourconversation, you know, I really
want to talk about yourinvolvement and your stance and
just appreciation, along withsupport, of the B Corp movement.
You've been a part of it foryears.
So, really, what drew you tothis space and what keeps you
(01:54):
involved at such a high?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
level.
I'll save you a long answer.
I'll tell you that in 20 Idon't know probably like 2013
through 15, I kind of hardcoreburned out on capitalism.
I got laid off twice in thesame year, um, I had a couple
horrible jobs, um, and there'sjust a lot that was like kind of
(02:18):
like unveiling itself.
See what I did there, um, andjust like.
But as somebody who hadbusiness degrees, it was very
hard to like.
I wasn't like business isstupid.
I just didn't like what I wasseeing.
Well, like why do we do it thisway?
Why is it so slimy?
And then I got into like allgood capitalism burnouts.
(02:39):
I decided I should go get anMBA, keep studying business.
And when I got there, though,like really early on, there was
a project to help a company do BCorp certification.
I had no idea what it was, butI met the CEO and his wife and a
former MBA who had likeinterned for B Lab, and I was
like, oh, is this the capitalismI've been looking for?
(02:59):
And ended up getting a job withhim after I graduated.
We got him certified and Istayed there for five and a half
years, started my own companyin 21 as a side hustle 22
full-time.
But along the way, like 2018, Istarted the B Culture Call,
which is a call within the BCorp community.
I started B Local Georgia 2020,I started Build Southeast.
(03:22):
So I just kind of kept gettinginvolved and I kept seeing gaps
where there was nobody doingsomething, and so I just kind of
naturally I guess I'm a gapplugger where I just jumped in
and started doing the work andnow I don't want to say that
keeps me here, because I mean, Ithink you know I'm not one of
those.
You know you always have thoseemployees who are like man,
you'll see, if I ever leave,this place would crumble, like
(03:44):
no, it won't.
I do have some incredible itwill keep going.
Exactly, it's bigger than any ofus.
So it's not necessarily whatkeeps me here.
I just really love the space, Ilove the people and I love the
fight for a version ofcapitalism that works for more
people and for the longterm andthe sustainable.
(04:05):
And I'm a market, a free marketguy.
So I also am kind of a littlebit of like let's let the, let
the, let the best system win.
Like let the best version ofcapitalism win.
Like, like I want the fight.
I'm not trying to like re, likeI'm re-imagining capitalism.
I'm not like sitting here andgoing like like we have to
(04:25):
systemically tear capitalismapart, like I think the tenets
of capitalism are fine.
It's just what we've let itbecome.
That has become a little withthrow up in the mouth inducing.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Now I can definitely see that, and you've been
involved for such a long time,so how have you really seen this
organization evolve over yourtime with them?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Oh, I think B-Lab originally B-Lab.
Just to throw this out so Idon't confuse people B-Corp is
the certification, b-lab is theparent nonprofit that oversees
the certification.
You might hear me use theminterjectively.
Oh, and full disclaimer,because everybody assumes this.
I don't work for B-Lab.
I work for my own company thatdoes B-Corp consulting and then
(05:10):
I run nonprofits that are in theB-Corp community.
Anyway, now that that's out ofthe way, I think for me, I've
seen it go from business as aforce for good to a lot more
advocacy.
I don't know that that's goodor bad.
(05:33):
What do you?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
think has caused it to go from you know business for
good to more the advocacy route.
Do you think it's just theclimate of what we are dealing
with politically and sociallyover the past, you know, eight,
10 years?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, I think some of it is that, I think trying to
figure out.
I think part of it was externalforces, you know, especially,
like you know, 2016 election.
You know 2016 election and thenI would say, probably
everything that happened during2020 between COVID and George
Floyd and all those things, Ithink forced a lot of people to
(06:10):
take a harder look in the mirror, and I think even B lab had its
own reckoning, where it waslike, was it three or four
middle-aged white dudes thatstarted it?
You know kind of looking aroundlike did we build this thing?
And again I never say thatknockingly, because I know many
businesses where like it's hey,me and my buddy, you're gonna.
You know you look at like justthe way it's, it doesn't make it
(06:31):
bad.
But I don't think it wasfounded with as much
intentionality as they wouldhave liked to have done if they
could have gone back and done itagain, and so I think there was
a little bit of that coming toothat spurred some of the more
of a focus on like this is is avery monocultured community.
But you also have to look atlike where did it start and
where did it really take off?
And it took off in places likePortland, oregon and, you know,
(06:53):
upper New England, like NewHampshire, maine, vermont, like
places that just aren't verydiverse by.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I mean just in general, they're just not
diverse, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, so you know, I think I think it got into that,
and then a lot more climateaction, and I think, if anything
, I think there's a little bitof like the younger generation
got introduced to the movementand I always like my Ted talk, I
talk about how, like you know,they show up to the party with
like a can of gas and a book ofmatches, looking to burn you
(07:23):
know what to the ground, and Ithink I think they got involved
too and I think for in a goodway.
You know again, if this isbalanced it's good.
If it becomes all this, it'sbad, but in a nuanced, good way,
I think, kind of forced B Corpsto maybe evolve a little bit
quicker and do a little bit morethan just be like not bad, but
(07:47):
to be, you know, you know orlike exceeds, or like meets
requirements on a corporatereview, like it needs to.
We need to exceed requirements.
And so I think there are some,some, some voices that have
pushed this community to do moreand go further and, and you
know, and that's ruffled somefeathers, because there's some
companies who are completelyhappy, kind of being verified as
a good company, but necessarily, you know, I've heard the one
(08:09):
quote somebody told me once wasmy advocacy is running my
company as a B Corp, like I'mnot going to go letter writing
campaigns and do all thesethings and like we're just not
going to do that.
So it's a very interesting andyou know, I think within the
community right now you feel Idon't want to call it tension,
but you feel a little addingjobs, you know kind of showing
(08:47):
that I think the business world,that this is a viable business
model, that this isn't just abunch of people sitting out in
the woods hugging trees.
So we are thinking Kumbaya.
MBAs and PhDs and, you know,lifelong business people who
have decided to run theirbusiness this way.
That it isn't somebody whodoesn't quote, unquote get it.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And I think, especially right now, where
there are so many I have friendsthat work for the federal
government, that work atagencies, that are right now
having to go through websitepages and remove words like
environmental, climate change,remove words like environmental
climate change.
Now it's it's, non, it's yeah.
(09:29):
Everything is changing, sothat's what they're spending
their time doing.
And there are so many people,too, that don't want their name
associated with a piece of workthat's published, for example,
that you know might come back to, and then, lack of a better
term, bite them in the ass lateron, when it comes to funding,
for example, that you know mightcome back to in a lack of a
better term, bite them in theass later on when it comes to
funding, for example.
So how do you help thosecompanies really, you know,
(09:53):
bridge that gap between you knowwanting to hit your
sustainability targets and goalsand obviously be profitable,
but you've got some people thatare, you know, some stakeholders
that are kind of stepping backnow because there is just so
much uncertainty and things arechanging on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You know, I think for most of us, I mean, unless you
rely on government funding andgrants, which some of us do, I
mean, I've done some grant work.
Usually it's private foundation, but still work.
Usually it's private foundation, but still, um, I think you're
going to be just fine.
Uh, as far as the customer base, I mean, I think I don't know
that it's going to get any more.
(10:33):
You know, if you're not a Deltaor a Walmart or a JP Morgan or
nobody's coming after theaverage hundred employeeemployee
company for still doingdiversity work.
I think, for a lot of mynonprofit friends which I'm on a
lot of nonprofits, I run anonprofit we're definitely
(10:56):
scared and trying to figure outhow to maintain our work without
necessarily and you're almost,in this weird way, stuck in this
ethical dilemma of does it makeme a sellout to not say DEI
anymore?
And I don't know that there's aright answer for everybody.
(11:18):
For me, I don't care, I'm herefor the work.
I'm not here for the, you know,the poster or the billboard or
the awards, or to be the posterchild of this work, like I just
don't care, I'm, I'm here.
Did we drive results today?
Did we move this plan one stepcloser from idea to pilot?
(11:40):
Did we raise money for you knowthis initiative?
Did we raise money for you knowthis initiative?
Did we, you know, like?
So to me it's more about theoutcomes and I think maybe, if
anything, you're going to see, Ithink some people definitely
are running a little bit scaredand again, I'm not here to tell
(12:00):
you that's wrong, depending onwhat your industry is, where
you're located, you know,because a lot of this stuff was,
you know, was never reallycontroversial until recently.
But also to me if you said it,just stick with it.
I think you're seeing, you know, putting on my like corporate
or my academic hat.
You're seeing backlash againstlike you know, you saw it
against Bud Light, and then itended up.
(12:22):
They got hit from both endsbecause when they got pushed by
one side, then they completelybacked and caved on the other
side.
So now they pissed off thepeople who they originally made
the whole thing for.
And then you have like target,same thing where, like target,
you know, took out all the heatfrom the right, so then they
caved.
Now the left is, you know, soyou're like, you're, you're.
I think you're better offstanding your ground, um, or, or
(12:44):
you know, maybe coming up witha different term, or you know,
like, kind of, take the bullseyeoff your back for a little bit,
which is what I'm advising mostpeople to do.
Just call it.
I mean, they know what we'redoing anyway.
They even said it in one of theexecutive orders like, and if
they call it something else,like the whole, like program to
rat out your co-worker whoreally secretly does dei work,
(13:04):
but it's like when, yeah, whendid dei become a negative term
for people?
yeah, I mean, I think you knowif I'm being honest, I think we
went, we, and I heard somebodysay this on a call yesterday and
I hadn't thought of it thissuccinctly if you ask the
average person to define dei, ifyou ask 100 of us, you're going
(13:27):
to get 100 very differentresponses and I think therein
lied our lies, our problem, um,that we allowed the worst
version of dei to be accepted asthe narrative Because there was
an element of you know, there'sa difference between teaching
(13:48):
history and feeling you know theprevalence with which white
fragility circulated and if youcan't admit you're a racist,
you're an even bigger racist andsome of it was very divisive
and I wasn't a fan of a lot ofit.
I think we allowed it to becomethat worst version in other
(14:10):
people's eyes, became the publicversion.
You know and like we talk, youknow the, the, the white
fragility type books andeverything, where everything did
start to become a like, uh, andus versus them is kind of how
we started to do some of thiswork, where you know again the
whole premise of like, if youcan't admit you're a racist,
you're more of a racist, and youknow, and everybody kind of
(14:32):
taking the classes and I thinkwe had everybody afraid, even on
the left, of what you can sayand what you can't say.
One time, like everything on ascale of zero to 10, where one
is borderline ridiculous, fiveis an actual microaggression and
10 is something like a klansmanwould say.
(14:53):
Everything became a 10, um, andwe just had this whole like
paralysis of, like fear of doinganything.
And in reality, I don't knowsome of the, some of it was
needed for some people, but Ithink we distracted ourselves
from the actual work becausewithin that you started throwing
away.
You know you threw the baby outwith the bath water and, like I,
(15:14):
do a lot of work in atlanta andlike stuff.
Like you know, the fearlessfund got wrapped into this where
, like, all they did was goraise a fund with, with
investors, private money toinvest in black women-owned
businesses.
How the hell is that illegal?
What's wrong with that?
If that's what I want to put mymoney into, that's where I want
to invest.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Let me invest.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Let me invest.
So it became this thing whereany sort of good work or
intentional, outcome-drivensystems design became this enemy
of white.
You know, like, oh, whitepeople.
I remember having thisconversation with somebody like
I'm worried for my 10 year old,they're not going to have any
chance to succeed in the world.
And you're like your 10 yearold was parents.
(15:55):
Both of them have corporatejobs and you live in Roswell,
georgia.
Your 10 year old's going to befine, going to be fine.
But that was the fear, and thatwas early post-George Floyd that
I heard that comment and I waslike this person's crazy.
And then, the longer this wenton, I started to realize that
(16:16):
was the prevailing talking pointon the right and I think this
comes back to left too.
We don't listen to what they'resaying, we don't watch the news
, and then we get in aconversation.
We go, ah, you're crazy.
And we turn around.
But whether or not you thinkit's crazy if we are not
listening and don't know whattheir fear is, cause if you're a
parent, that's a fear Okay,there's going to be no
(16:36):
opportunity for my kid.
That's a fear for every parent.
So I don't know that we weretruly, really listening to what
is it that people are so afraidof?
Um, and I think we just kind oflike, and I think we took joe
biden's election in 2020 as amandate on that.
Like that, it was more of a, tome, a mandate on people wanted
(16:59):
a moderate, they wanted somebodyin the middle, they didn't want
to have to check twitter 24hours a day, they wanted
somebody who was, you know, onthe side of what I would say the
DEI, so the right side of thehistorical conversation.
But they didn't necessarily.
I think we took it as a this isfor the like, a mandate for
(17:21):
kind of the what I would say,the more progressive wing of the
party's politics, and I thinkthat got us a lot of troubles.
We were never really listeningand we couldn't really have an
honest conversation, because ifyou didn't agree with all of it,
they kind of came for you withthe pitchforks.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah, I want to keep talking about the whole
listening aspect, because youare a professor at University of
Georgia, so when you areworking with your students, how
do you teach them to listen andto really, you know, embrace
both sides or multiple sides tocome to, you know, to be able to
(17:56):
work together for the greatergood if they're working on a
project or, you know, workingwithin the community?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Well, first of all, the professors get mad because
they don't have a phd.
So I'm a part-time lecturer, umgot it.
I honestly really try to teachmy kids business, so I teach
them the business of goodbusiness.
So my biggest thing that in myclass I'm not trying to I don't
have some dream that every oneof them is going to go work for
a B Corp or I'm more teachingthem how to implement these
(18:29):
strategies in a non.
You know, this isn't aboutbeing right, it isn't about
being the most virtuous.
It's about how do I make thebusiness case.
It's about how do I roll thisout in a way that will actually
be successful.
Like you know, kind of usingDEI as an example of like we're
working with a company, becausewe worked with companies that
wanted to certify, so mystudents work on those projects
(18:51):
all semester.
If we're working on, you know, adiversity plan for a company to
bring in a more diverse set ofemployees, and then you know,
obviously we get into theinclusion and the equity piece.
But just if we're just startinghere, you know looking at like,
where are we recruiting, howare we?
You know, looking at like,where are we recruiting, how are
we?
You know, because you'd seethese, like you know, companies
that they wanted to do good andthey wanted to do these things
(19:12):
and it's like how do you helpthem do it, though, in a way
that is actually long term kindof systems changing even
internally at their company?
So where are we recruiting?
What KPIs are we tracking?
Applicants eyeballs opens,complete resumes, go like up for
determination, what makes themost sense.
But what are we actuallytracking to help this company
become better?
(19:32):
Um, or if it's something like asustainability initiative, okay
, great.
Yes, it's wonderful to do x, yand z.
But how do we do x, y and howdo we even if it's napkin math
figure out, kind of start tolook at what that payback period
is?
Let's talk in dollars and cents,because I think we make a lot
(19:52):
of these arguments of, you know,oh, wouldn't it be nice to have
solar on the roof?
And oh, and the polar ice capsare melting, and this, and it's
like, and after three years ofpower bill savings, the solar
panels will be paid off.
And then, like, if you make thecase like that, teaching them
(20:18):
how to kind of like be the, youknow, make that even for things
like you know again not to harpon the diversity thing, but you
know, can you come back andprove to a CFO that your team
cares about this?
You know that there's aretention impact, that this is
something your company ispassionate about.
It will drive your employee netpromoter score.
Like thinking about thesethings outside of just making
the because it's the right thingto do, because in the way most
corporations are structured,they do have a fiduciary duty to
(20:39):
shareholders.
And you're seeing that kind ofplay out now where, like anybody
taking ESG, you better be ableto back that up as a fiduciary
item.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, the books better speak for themselves at
this point, in order to use thatterm.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yes, because you're seeing that start to play out
where you're going to seelawsuits from shareholder I mean
you already have and thenyou're seeing legislation
introduced in places likeKentucky and, yeah, you're
seeing some of this stuff reallystart to people starting to try
to figure out.
I mean, I kind of one of those.
It's a win, not if people comeafter the I don't want to say B
(21:16):
Corp community, but at leastbenefit corporations, like the
legislation where you canincorporate as a benefit Corp
that will.
I mean, again, it's beenintroduced in several States, so
I wouldn't be surprised if thatcontinues to.
You know, basically is aneglecting your fiduciary duty
even though that's part of beinga benefit corp is you have a
duty to your shareholders andyour stakeholders.
(21:36):
But, we'll see how that playsout, but I'm kind of ready for
it.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
We'll cross that bridge when we get there right.
Yep, excellent.
So I'm sure there's been a lotof of you know different trends
you've seen over the years.
So what do you expect for thefuture when it comes to B Corp
and, you know, working with theclients that you work with now?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Um, I see a future that's very bright.
Uh, I, I think the toothpasteis out of the tube.
I think the ship's left theharbor whatever stupid analogy
being that, it's happening, andI say this all the time I have
for a couple months now youcan't legislate our values and
you do, within the B Corpcommunity, have a group.
(22:22):
We had a beautiful callyesterday about how do we
continue a lot of our DEI work,how do we continue a lot of our?
You know, and maybe for some ofthis it means not calling it
that and doing things.
But I think you're going tostart to see and I also feel
like the future for us,especially in the DEI and the
ESG space, or whateverthree-letter acronyms we're not
(22:45):
supposed to say anymore, and thebuilding inclusive teams that
perform better because theresearch tells us they do, or
the you know, thinking about thesustainability environmental
sustainability and the risks toour business.
I think what you'll see is apivot in the B Corp community
now.
I think we were leaders in thewe must talk about this space,
(23:08):
and so when I talk about that,sometimes it sounds like I'm
like oh, I don't talk about it,but I also think now is the next
phase of that like, oh, we talkabout it and we put the thing
on our website and we arecommitted to this.
And now I think what you'll seeis a pivot to a lot more action
.
And my hope is, in 10 years nowyou'll be able to see some like
incredible.
You know case studies like a,like a Grayson bakery who
(23:32):
started this in the eighties,but like they're open hiring
concept hiring concept, it'sgreater.
There's workforce developmentprogram, like I think you're
going to see a lot of really,really cool stuff that Maybe
before was more, I don't knowlike less action oriented.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I think you'll start to say more in theory before you
know having ideas, but nowpeople are putting those ideas
into action and really makingpurposeful decisions for their
company and for theircommunities.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yes, yes, and I think I don't know.
I think that's good, I thinkthat's going to be a really,
really good thing for thecommunity because we'll be able
to stand here and and stand onprofit and stand on also like
being able to share thosetangible stories of being the
leaders.
And you know, if you believe inthis and you believe that it's
the right thing to do and again,I'm not asking anybody to be
(24:28):
the loudest person in the roombut and kind of investing in our
own businesses, you knowthere's a reason multinationals
are doing this.
There's a reason and I knowthat was a contentious thing in
the B Corp community with, youknow, nespresso getting
certified, some of thesemultinationals getting certified
.
But to me, like, if they'redoing this and they're huge,
(24:53):
there's something about it.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Maybe I should look at it.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yes, future-proofing your business.
And you know and again, we cantalk about that later or not at
all, but I'm always happy tohave that conversation of.
To me, that's when the businesscase is starting to be made is
when you get companies who makedecisions based off the bottom
line doing the right thingbecause it's the right thing for
the bottom line and I don'treally care if that's why
(25:16):
somebody's doing it.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, I mean I know you've worked on 25 or so B Corp
certification projects.
Maybe that number's wrong, butthat's what I have.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Like 42.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Oh, it's more than that.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So that prospect asked me to give him a number.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I put a spreadsheet together.
Excellent, all right.
So what do you think, in yourexperience, is the biggest
challenge that companies facewhen trying to align profit and
purpose?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Oh, the biggest.
I might have to do a couple.
I'll share them from oppositeends.
I see one is people think that,oh, we want to do B Corp, and
then you get into it and it's ahard standard to hit.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
And so, as we go through this, and if you're not
willing to do this, and we don'twant to do an annual impact
report, or we don't really wantto be transparent with our
employees in that way, well, wedon't really want to like be
transparent with our employeesin that way.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Well, we don't really have that bad, you know, and
it's not just this will costsomething.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's just kind of like, um, you know it sounds
good, but that's an extra costthere and like, I get it.
You know, cost that up, but atsome point, if you're not
willing to do the work, to get bcourt.
Nobody okay, very rarely hasthat had to happen.
Does anybody just come in andgo.
I took my first run to theassessment and we're at 130, you
need 80.
Most people come in like, oh,we took our first run to the
(26:47):
assessment and we're like at 42.
So there's a lot of work tofind that other 38 points in the
assessment.
And there are companies who Ithink come in and I don't know
if they think they that this isa viable certification, um, but
it isn't, so we're gonna have todo some.
So I can, for the most part youcan kind of tell going into
(27:09):
this whether this is in theowner's dna or um.
They think it's just going tobe an easy layup.
And you also meet the ones whoknow it won't be an easy layup,
know they have a long way to goand are like telling you like no
, this is it, we're in, I wantthis.
Like you are going to work withme, you're going to coach me on
what we need to do, you'regoing to help us implement it.
And those are kind of myfavorite clients because those
(27:30):
are like what was the old FranzKafka book, the, the, the
metamorphosis, why?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
metamorphosis Yep.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I have no idea, but it's kind of like you get to see
the whole the transformationthe whole fair vandalism of the,
the whole transformation ofthese companies from like good
into something really great, andyou see the employees get
excited and you see them, youknow, actually make really,
really, really big strides inthe way they run their business,
(28:00):
and so to me those are the mostrewarding.
But yeah, I think, coming inwith the expectations of it
being a little too simple, ormaybe they did think that it was
kind of a, not a pay to play.
But, like you know, we'll checkthe boxes, we'll fill out the
thing and then we will becertified.
But we'll check a couple boxes,we'll fill out the thing and
then we'll be certified.
Yes, and it is contrary to whata now infamous soap company
(28:22):
says.
It is not easy for mostcompanies to get to the
certification.
You can't just buy your waythere.
You can, but to buy your waythere would mean benefits and
pay raises and all these things.
To get your points up.
You can technically buy yourway there, but everybody that
works for you is going to bevery grateful that you did so.
I think that's important tocall out too.
(28:43):
Like the only way to buyyourself is like I guess we
bought a lot of benefits for ourteam or you know like so
there's not a lot.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
We're trying to improve morale in a way.
So this is one way and ourclimate, culture and our climate
and our organization.
So we're just going to yeah,we're going to pay.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, yeah, and you're going to pay in your
client.
I did have that happen one timewhere a company they weren't
going to get full points for100% of employees making a
family living wage and they hadsomebody younger, single, no
children, who was like 25 centsan hour off.
Literally we're on with theanalyst from B-Lab and the CEO
(29:20):
went into Gusto gave him a 50cents an hour raise.
I was like, oh, that employee'sgonna love them some B Corp.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yep, oh, that's funny .
So when you start working witha company and I know this
depends on you know that theinitial intake score that they
have along with you know.
When you guys start workingwith a company and I know this
depends on you know that theinitial intake score that they,
that they have along with youknow.
When you guys start workingtogether, how long does it
usually take for a company toget certified?
I know there's variables,multiple variables to talk about
(29:48):
here, but in general, if youhad to give us, you know the
average I mean average.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
it should be about a I don't want to say a year,
because it can move fasterDepends how big the company is
and how complex it is.
Like how much data are we goingto have to pull and also are we
pulling data or are we pullingdata?
You know what I mean.
Do you have nine employees ordo you have, you know, 340
employees?
Where it's like, okay, thisbecomes a lot more intricate,
(30:28):
intricate, and then I think itdepends on the level of effort
of you know, are they one ofthose that came in at a 40 or
one of those that came in at a72, where you're like, oh, we're
pretty much.
You know, we're documentingsome stuff and then we need to
figure out where these othereight points are going to come
from.
But there's not a ton to dohere other than to make sure
that you answer these questionscorrectly, that you can prove
that you're doing the answersyou claimed and those types of
things.
But I would say, from start tosubmit three months and then a
couple months in evaluation andthen right now I think it's up
(30:49):
to four to six months inverification.
So you should be able to get itdone within a year.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That's bad.
In the grand scheme of things,it's not bad at all.
A year goes by quickly.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, and a lot of times you'll get clients like I
have one right now still aprospect, but they are very they
want to do B Corp.
They've been in business forabout a year so they're very
excited.
Like you have to be in businessfor a year so they're ready to
do it.
But also we started talkingabout the community section of
(31:23):
the assessment and they werevery hesitant of like we haven't
done as much as we want to asfar as our strategic impacts.
That was part of why we want tobring you in, because we know
you're so and they want to buildout a really cool mentoring
program.
They want to do some, some,some work with some HBCUs up in
the Northeast.
So like they really have thesecrazy, amazing aspirational
ideas they just don't know howto execute.
So we're going to use that timewhile we're waiting in the
(31:46):
queue and waiting for an analystto really go deep in on their
strategic impact and you know,and roadmap out.
Okay, if this is the end goal,is this mentorship program with
students from an HBCU, like whatis the end of year one goal?
Because it's not going to bethere yet.
So how do we start to figureout how to set them up for
(32:07):
success as they work towardsthese things and really have the
impact they want?
And how do we not have zeroimpact until we get to finish
dream ideal state?
So that'll be the fun part, butwe can use some of the downtime
.
While we're just again waitingin line for a B-Lab analyst to
free up to look at ourassessment, we can use that time
to kind of work on some of theother stuff, some of the
(32:28):
implementation, some of thenetwork connections, making sure
people get to meet other peoplein their industry or potential
buyers or just people I thinkthat they will become friends
with in the B Corp community.
So using as much of thatdowntime as possible to do
something you know productivefor them.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah, I love that.
And when we met before, youknow we talked about some of the
projects that you've worked onand networking and making those
connections.
So what advice do you have forbusiness owners?
Maybe just starting out couldbe students too.
You know of how to get your.
I don't even want to say getyour foot in the door, but but
take those steps to attend,whether it's a community meeting
(33:06):
or you know a local governor, alocal town hall, just to get
you know your face out there,your name out there, that you
want to be involved.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, I mean a lot of regions have be locals so we've
got like be local.
Georgia.
We do virtual stuff, most ofit's in person, some of them are
just volunteer days, so likethere's a ton of ways to get
involved.
I will say same thing from astudent perspective.
There's a lot of people in theB Corp community, I mean I think
in the general businesscommunity, that will'll make
time for students, because wewere all a student at some point
(33:38):
, even if we didn't go tocollege.
We were a student in highschool.
We were a young professionaltrying to figure out our career.
So I would definitely play thestudent card as much as you can.
But what was the other one?
Small business, I'd also sayreally for anybody, small
business, even though you haveto be a for-profit business to
certify, the assessment tool isfree.
(33:59):
So whether you're a smallbusiness or a college within a
university or a department, likeyou can use that assessment and
go through it and kind of lookat like how are we doing
according to these standards?
And again, you're never goingto certify, but you can use that
tool as kind of a framework forimprovement.
And for small businesses, youngbusinesses I mean, as soon as I
(34:22):
hit one year.
I submitted my assessmentbecause I was ready.
Use it as a foundational pieceto build the company that you
want to be when you grow up.
You know thinking about thatfuture state and where do we
want to be?
Because some stuff won't berealistic at the beginning.
You know, small sometimes it'snot.
We're going to do a healthcarestipend but we can't get a
(34:42):
policy.
Or you know we probably won'thave a 401k for a couple of
years, but we want one, so let'saccrue for one.
Like some of those things oflike, what do we want to be and
what are these actually going tocost?
Are we out?
What is the viable way to getto said desired state?
(35:04):
I think the B impact assessment,which is the verification tool,
is an incredible, incredibleasset to kind of look through.
And even if you're justwondering, like I don't know how
much secondary caregiver leaveyou're going to have, does
anybody think about that whenthey're starting a business?
No, does anybody think aboutthat when they're starting a
business?
No, is anybody thinking aboutvolunteer time off or paid time
off?
Or, you know, is our 401k goingto have a sustainable investing
option?
Like, you're not thinking aboutthese things?
(35:25):
So not that they shoulddistract from your main business
, but it doesn't hurt to kind ofput these, plant these seeds in
your head, for you know,because the last thing you want
to do is get so far out of thestable.
Look how many analogies can Iuse.
Out of the harbor, out of thestable, toothpaste out of the
tube.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
So far out, though, that now you don't have to put a
new window on the house, youhave to bulldoze the house, tear
up the foundation andcompletely start over, and it
becomes kind of turning theocean liner versus turning the
speedboat as far as the amountof effort now to kind of correct
early foundational mistakes inbuilding this with intention and
building what you wanted tobuild and the kind of company
(36:07):
that you wanted to build andwill be proud of.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, no, I love that .
That's absolutely great adviceand I definitely want to have
you on another time to talkabout future proofing your
business, because I feel like wecould have an entire episode
just on that.
Just on that.
But for those who are listening, if you are on the podcast
(36:30):
webpage, we will put a link toto be corp, to the certification
, just to get some moreinformation to our listeners.
But if people want to contactyou, get in touch with you.
What is the best method?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Let's see LinkedIn.
I'm a LinkedIn junkie.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think most of us are.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's the only one worth Every other
one too.
I just get sucked in.
We have Be Local Georgia.
We have an Instagram for thenonprofit, but yeah, I'll go on
to like post.
The next thing you know, I'vewatched an hour's worth of reels
and you're like where did myday go?
So I'm pretty much there.
Yes, Pretty weird LinkedIn'snow, like here, there's videos.
(37:10):
I'm like not interested, Nope,Just just not interested.
So, yeah, so I'm, so I'm prettymuch on there.
You can also get, you canconnect through our website
ProfitablePurposeConsultingcombut chances are I'm always on
LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Okay, wonderful.
Well, thank you for being onwith us.
I've enjoyed it.
Ask yourself how can Icontribute to a brighter, more
sustainable future yourself?
How can I contribute to abrighter, more sustainable
future, not just personally, butprofessionally?
Let's embark on this journeytogether and shape the landscape
of sustainable leadership fortomorrow.
Take the first step now andmake a commitment to lead with
(37:49):
sustainability in mind.
That's all for this episode ofSustainability Unveiled.
Join us next time as wecontinue exploring the forefront
of sustainable businesspractices.
Until then, stay informed, staysustainable.
Welcome to another episode of Sustainability
Unveiled, where we explore theintersection of business,
sustainability and innovation.
Today, we're tackling acritical and complex topic how
do we navigate climate action inan increasingly polarized world
?
Our guest today is someone whohas dedicated his career to
(00:28):
proving that business can be aforce for good.
Nathan Stuck is anaward-winning leader in the B
Corp movement, founder ofProfitable Purpose Consulting
and a driving force behind BeLocal Georgia and the BLD
Southeast Conference.
He's worked on over 25 B Corpcertifications, teaches an MBA
course on B Corp at theUniversity of Georgia and is a
(00:51):
sought-after speaker and authorof Happy Monday Designing your
Dream Career.
Nathan brings deep expertise inbuilding purpose-driven
business, but he's also here tohave a real, honest conversation
about the challenges we face inpushing sustainability forward,
especially in today's dividedlandscape.
From cancel culture tocollaboration, we're diving into
(01:14):
the nuances of what it takes tobridge divides and keep the
momentum going.
Hey, then, welcome toSustainability Unveiled.
Thank you for being on with us.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thanks for having me, jessica, always excited to well
talk sustainability.
Maybe unveil something.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Exactly, yes.
Yes, now we have a lot to getinto today, but before we get
into the meat of ourconversation, you know, I really
want to talk about yourinvolvement and your stance and
just appreciation, along withsupport, of the B Corp movement.
You've been a part of it foryears.
So, really, what drew you tothis space and what keeps you
(01:54):
involved at such a high?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
level.
I'll save you a long answer.
I'll tell you that in 20 Idon't know probably like 2013
through 15, I kind of hardcoreburned out on capitalism.
I got laid off twice in thesame year, um, I had a couple
horrible jobs, um, and there'sjust a lot that was like kind of
(02:18):
like unveiling itself.
See what I did there, um, andjust like.
But as somebody who hadbusiness degrees, it was very
hard to like.
I wasn't like business isstupid.
I just didn't like what I wasseeing.
Well, like why do we do it thisway?
Why is it so slimy?
And then I got into like allgood capitalism burnouts.
(02:39):
I decided I should go get anMBA, keep studying business.
And when I got there, though,like really early on, there was
a project to help a company do BCorp certification.
I had no idea what it was, butI met the CEO and his wife and a
former MBA who had likeinterned for B Lab, and I was
like, oh, is this the capitalismI've been looking for?
(02:59):
And ended up getting a job withhim after I graduated.
We got him certified and Istayed there for five and a half
years, started my own companyin 21 as a side hustle 22
full-time.
But along the way, like 2018, Istarted the B Culture Call,
which is a call within the BCorp community.
I started B Local Georgia 2020,I started Build Southeast.
(03:22):
So I just kind of kept gettinginvolved and I kept seeing gaps
where there was nobody doingsomething, and so I just kind of
naturally I guess I'm a gapplugger where I just jumped in
and started doing the work andnow I don't want to say that
keeps me here, because I mean, Ithink you know I'm not one of
those.
You know you always have thoseemployees who are like man,
you'll see, if I ever leave,this place would crumble, like
(03:44):
no, it won't.
I do have some incredible itwill keep going.
Exactly, it's bigger than any ofus.
So it's not necessarily whatkeeps me here.
I just really love the space, Ilove the people and I love the
fight for a version ofcapitalism that works for more
people and for the longterm andthe sustainable.
(04:05):
And I'm a market, a free marketguy.
So I also am kind of a littlebit of like let's let the, let
the, let the best system win.
Like let the best version ofcapitalism win.
Like, like I want the fight.
I'm not trying to like re, likeI'm re-imagining capitalism.
I'm not like sitting here andgoing like like we have to
(04:25):
systemically tear capitalismapart, like I think the tenets
of capitalism are fine.
It's just what we've let itbecome.
That has become a little withthrow up in the mouth inducing.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Now I can definitely see that, and you've been
involved for such a long time,so how have you really seen this
organization evolve over yourtime with them?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Oh, I think B-Lab originally B-Lab.
Just to throw this out so Idon't confuse people B-Corp is
the certification, b-lab is theparent nonprofit that oversees
the certification.
You might hear me use theminterjectively.
Oh, and full disclaimer,because everybody assumes this.
I don't work for B-Lab.
I work for my own company thatdoes B-Corp consulting and then
(05:10):
I run nonprofits that are in theB-Corp community.
Anyway, now that that's out ofthe way, I think for me, I've
seen it go from business as aforce for good to a lot more
advocacy.
I don't know that that's goodor bad.
(05:33):
What do you?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
think has caused it to go from you know business for
good to more the advocacy route.
Do you think it's just theclimate of what we are dealing
with politically and sociallyover the past, you know, eight,
10 years?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, I think some of it is that, I think trying to
figure out.
I think part of it was externalforces, you know, especially,
like you know, 2016 election.
You know 2016 election and thenI would say, probably
everything that happened during2020 between COVID and George
Floyd and all those things, Ithink forced a lot of people to
(06:10):
take a harder look in the mirror, and I think even B lab had its
own reckoning, where it waslike, was it three or four
middle-aged white dudes thatstarted it?
You know kind of looking aroundlike did we build this thing?
And again I never say thatknockingly, because I know many
businesses where like it's hey,me and my buddy, you're gonna.
You know you look at like justthe way it's, it doesn't make it
(06:31):
bad.
But I don't think it wasfounded with as much
intentionality as they wouldhave liked to have done if they
could have gone back and done itagain, and so I think there was
a little bit of that coming toothat spurred some of the more
of a focus on like this is is avery monocultured community.
But you also have to look atlike where did it start and
where did it really take off?
And it took off in places likePortland, oregon and, you know,
(06:53):
upper New England, like NewHampshire, maine, vermont, like
places that just aren't verydiverse by.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I mean just in general, they're just not
diverse, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, so you know, I think I think it got into that,
and then a lot more climateaction, and I think, if anything
, I think there's a little bitof like the younger generation
got introduced to the movementand I always like my Ted talk, I
talk about how, like you know,they show up to the party with
like a can of gas and a book ofmatches, looking to burn you
(07:23):
know what to the ground, and Ithink I think they got involved
too and I think for in a goodway.
You know again, if this isbalanced it's good.
If it becomes all this, it'sbad, but in a nuanced, good way,
I think, kind of forced B Corpsto maybe evolve a little bit
quicker and do a little bit morethan just be like not bad, but
(07:47):
to be, you know, you know orlike exceeds, or like meets
requirements on a corporatereview, like it needs to.
We need to exceed requirements.
And so I think there are some,some, some voices that have
pushed this community to do moreand go further and, and you
know, and that's ruffled somefeathers, because there's some
companies who are completelyhappy, kind of being verified as
a good company, but necessarily, you know, I've heard the one
(08:09):
quote somebody told me once wasmy advocacy is running my
company as a B Corp, like I'mnot going to go letter writing
campaigns and do all thesethings and like we're just not
going to do that.
So it's a very interesting andyou know, I think within the
community right now you feel Idon't want to call it tension,
but you feel a little addingjobs, you know kind of showing
(08:47):
that I think the business world,that this is a viable business
model, that this isn't just abunch of people sitting out in
the woods hugging trees.
So we are thinking Kumbaya.
MBAs and PhDs and, you know,lifelong business people who
have decided to run theirbusiness this way.
That it isn't somebody whodoesn't quote, unquote get it.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And I think, especially right now, where
there are so many I have friendsthat work for the federal
government, that work atagencies, that are right now
having to go through websitepages and remove words like
environmental, climate change,remove words like environmental
climate change.
Now it's it's, non, it's yeah.
(09:29):
Everything is changing, sothat's what they're spending
their time doing.
And there are so many people,too, that don't want their name
associated with a piece of workthat's published, for example,
that you know might come back to, and then, lack of a better
term, bite them in the ass lateron, when it comes to funding,
for example, that you know mightcome back to in a lack of a
better term, bite them in theass later on when it comes to
funding, for example.
So how do you help thosecompanies really, you know,
(09:53):
bridge that gap between you knowwanting to hit your
sustainability targets and goalsand obviously be profitable,
but you've got some people thatare, you know, some stakeholders
that are kind of stepping backnow because there is just so
much uncertainty and things arechanging on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You know, I think for most of us, I mean, unless you
rely on government funding andgrants, which some of us do, I
mean, I've done some grant work.
Usually it's private foundation, but still work.
Usually it's private foundation, but still, um, I think you're
going to be just fine.
Uh, as far as the customer base, I mean, I think I don't know
that it's going to get any more.
(10:33):
You know, if you're not a Deltaor a Walmart or a JP Morgan or
nobody's coming after theaverage hundred employeeemployee
company for still doingdiversity work.
I think, for a lot of mynonprofit friends which I'm on a
lot of nonprofits, I run anonprofit we're definitely
(10:56):
scared and trying to figure outhow to maintain our work without
necessarily and you're almost,in this weird way, stuck in this
ethical dilemma of does it makeme a sellout to not say DEI
anymore?
And I don't know that there's aright answer for everybody.
(11:18):
For me, I don't care, I'm herefor the work.
I'm not here for the, you know,the poster or the billboard or
the awards, or to be the posterchild of this work, like I just
don't care, I'm, I'm here.
Did we drive results today?
Did we move this plan one stepcloser from idea to pilot?
(11:40):
Did we raise money for you knowthis initiative?
Did we raise money for you knowthis initiative?
Did we, you know, like?
So to me it's more about theoutcomes and I think maybe, if
anything, you're going to see, Ithink some people definitely
are running a little bit scaredand again, I'm not here to tell
(12:00):
you that's wrong, depending onwhat your industry is, where
you're located, you know,because a lot of this stuff was,
you know, was never reallycontroversial until recently.
But also to me if you said it,just stick with it.
I think you're seeing, you know, putting on my like corporate
or my academic hat.
You're seeing backlash againstlike you know, you saw it
against Bud Light, and then itended up.
(12:22):
They got hit from both endsbecause when they got pushed by
one side, then they completelybacked and caved on the other
side.
So now they pissed off thepeople who they originally made
the whole thing for.
And then you have like target,same thing where, like target,
you know, took out all the heatfrom the right, so then they
caved.
Now the left is, you know, soyou're like, you're, you're.
I think you're better offstanding your ground, um, or, or
(12:44):
you know, maybe coming up witha different term, or you know,
like, kind of, take the bullseyeoff your back for a little bit,
which is what I'm advising mostpeople to do.
Just call it.
I mean, they know what we'redoing anyway.
They even said it in one of theexecutive orders like, and if
they call it something else,like the whole, like program to
rat out your co-worker whoreally secretly does dei work,
(13:04):
but it's like when, yeah, whendid dei become a negative term
for people?
yeah, I mean, I think you knowif I'm being honest, I think we
went, we, and I heard somebodysay this on a call yesterday and
I hadn't thought of it thissuccinctly if you ask the
average person to define dei, ifyou ask 100 of us, you're going
(13:27):
to get 100 very differentresponses and I think therein
lied our lies, our problem, um,that we allowed the worst
version of dei to be accepted asthe narrative Because there was
an element of you know, there'sa difference between teaching
(13:48):
history and feeling you know theprevalence with which white
fragility circulated and if youcan't admit you're a racist,
you're an even bigger racist andsome of it was very divisive
and I wasn't a fan of a lot ofit.
I think we allowed it to becomethat worst version in other
(14:10):
people's eyes, became the publicversion.
You know and like we talk, youknow the, the, the white
fragility type books andeverything, where everything did
start to become a like, uh, andus versus them is kind of how
we started to do some of thiswork, where you know again the
whole premise of like, if youcan't admit you're a racist,
you're more of a racist, and youknow, and everybody kind of
(14:32):
taking the classes and I thinkwe had everybody afraid, even on
the left, of what you can sayand what you can't say.
One time, like everything on ascale of zero to 10, where one
is borderline ridiculous, fiveis an actual microaggression and
10 is something like a klansmanwould say.
(14:53):
Everything became a 10, um, andwe just had this whole like
paralysis of, like fear of doinganything.
And in reality, I don't knowsome of the, some of it was
needed for some people, but Ithink we distracted ourselves
from the actual work becausewithin that you started throwing
away.
You know you threw the baby outwith the bath water and, like I,
(15:14):
do a lot of work in atlanta andlike stuff.
Like you know, the fearlessfund got wrapped into this where
, like, all they did was goraise a fund with, with
investors, private money toinvest in black women-owned
businesses.
How the hell is that illegal?
What's wrong with that?
If that's what I want to put mymoney into, that's where I want
to invest.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Let me invest.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Let me invest.
So it became this thing whereany sort of good work or
intentional, outcome-drivensystems design became this enemy
of white.
You know, like, oh, whitepeople.
I remember having thisconversation with somebody like
I'm worried for my 10 year old,they're not going to have any
chance to succeed in the world.
And you're like your 10 yearold was parents.
(15:55):
Both of them have corporatejobs and you live in Roswell,
georgia.
Your 10 year old's going to befine, going to be fine.
But that was the fear, and thatwas early post-George Floyd that
I heard that comment and I waslike this person's crazy.
And then, the longer this wenton, I started to realize that
(16:16):
was the prevailing talking pointon the right and I think this
comes back to left too.
We don't listen to what they'resaying, we don't watch the news
, and then we get in aconversation.
We go, ah, you're crazy.
And we turn around.
But whether or not you thinkit's crazy if we are not
listening and don't know whattheir fear is, cause if you're a
parent, that's a fear Okay,there's going to be no
(16:36):
opportunity for my kid.
That's a fear for every parent.
So I don't know that we weretruly, really listening to what
is it that people are so afraidof?
Um, and I think we just kind oflike, and I think we took joe
biden's election in 2020 as amandate on that.
Like that, it was more of a, tome, a mandate on people wanted
(16:59):
a moderate, they wanted somebodyin the middle, they didn't want
to have to check twitter 24hours a day, they wanted
somebody who was, you know, onthe side of what I would say the
DEI, so the right side of thehistorical conversation.
But they didn't necessarily.
I think we took it as a this isfor the like, a mandate for
(17:21):
kind of the what I would say,the more progressive wing of the
party's politics, and I thinkthat got us a lot of troubles.
We were never really listeningand we couldn't really have an
honest conversation, because ifyou didn't agree with all of it,
they kind of came for you withthe pitchforks.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah, I want to keep talking about the whole
listening aspect, because youare a professor at University of
Georgia, so when you areworking with your students, how
do you teach them to listen andto really, you know, embrace
both sides or multiple sides tocome to, you know, to be able to
(17:56):
work together for the greatergood if they're working on a
project or, you know, workingwithin the community?
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Well, first of all, the professors get mad because
they don't have a phd.
So I'm a part-time lecturer, umgot it.
I honestly really try to teachmy kids business, so I teach
them the business of goodbusiness.
So my biggest thing that in myclass I'm not trying to I don't
have some dream that every oneof them is going to go work for
a B Corp or I'm more teachingthem how to implement these
(18:29):
strategies in a non.
You know, this isn't aboutbeing right, it isn't about
being the most virtuous.
It's about how do I make thebusiness case.
It's about how do I roll thisout in a way that will actually
be successful.
Like you know, kind of usingDEI as an example of like we're
working with a company, becausewe worked with companies that
wanted to certify, so mystudents work on those projects
(18:51):
all semester.
If we're working on, you know, adiversity plan for a company to
bring in a more diverse set ofemployees, and then you know,
obviously we get into theinclusion and the equity piece.
But just if we're just startinghere, you know looking at like,
where are we recruiting, howare we?
You know, looking at like,where are we recruiting, how are
we?
You know, because you'd seethese, like you know, companies
that they wanted to do good andthey wanted to do these things
(19:12):
and it's like how do you helpthem do it, though, in a way
that is actually long term kindof systems changing even
internally at their company?
So where are we recruiting?
What KPIs are we tracking?
Applicants eyeballs opens,complete resumes, go like up for
determination, what makes themost sense.
But what are we actuallytracking to help this company
become better?
(19:32):
Um, or if it's something like asustainability initiative, okay
, great.
Yes, it's wonderful to do x, yand z.
But how do we do x, y and howdo we even if it's napkin math
figure out, kind of start tolook at what that payback period
is?
Let's talk in dollars and cents,because I think we make a lot
(19:52):
of these arguments of, you know,oh, wouldn't it be nice to have
solar on the roof?
And oh, and the polar ice capsare melting, and this, and it's
like, and after three years ofpower bill savings, the solar
panels will be paid off.
And then, like, if you make thecase like that, teaching them
(20:18):
how to kind of like be the, youknow, make that even for things
like you know again not to harpon the diversity thing, but you
know, can you come back andprove to a CFO that your team
cares about this?
You know that there's aretention impact, that this is
something your company ispassionate about.
It will drive your employee netpromoter score.
Like thinking about thesethings outside of just making
the because it's the right thingto do, because in the way most
corporations are structured,they do have a fiduciary duty to
(20:39):
shareholders.
And you're seeing that kind ofplay out now where, like anybody
taking ESG, you better be ableto back that up as a fiduciary
item.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, the books better speak for themselves at
this point, in order to use thatterm.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yes, because you're seeing that start to play out
where you're going to seelawsuits from shareholder I mean
you already have and thenyou're seeing legislation
introduced in places likeKentucky and, yeah, you're
seeing some of this stuff reallystart to people starting to try
to figure out.
I mean, I kind of one of those.
It's a win, not if people comeafter the I don't want to say B
(21:16):
Corp community, but at leastbenefit corporations, like the
legislation where you canincorporate as a benefit Corp
that will.
I mean, again, it's beenintroduced in several States, so
I wouldn't be surprised if thatcontinues to.
You know, basically is aneglecting your fiduciary duty
even though that's part of beinga benefit corp is you have a
duty to your shareholders andyour stakeholders.
(21:36):
But, we'll see how that playsout, but I'm kind of ready for
it.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
We'll cross that bridge when we get there right.
Yep, excellent.
So I'm sure there's been a lotof of you know different trends
you've seen over the years.
So what do you expect for thefuture when it comes to B Corp
and, you know, working with theclients that you work with now?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Um, I see a future that's very bright.
Uh, I, I think the toothpasteis out of the tube.
I think the ship's left theharbor whatever stupid analogy
being that, it's happening, andI say this all the time I have
for a couple months now youcan't legislate our values and
you do, within the B Corpcommunity, have a group.
(22:22):
We had a beautiful callyesterday about how do we
continue a lot of our DEI work,how do we continue a lot of our?
You know, and maybe for some ofthis it means not calling it
that and doing things.
But I think you're going tostart to see and I also feel
like the future for us,especially in the DEI and the
ESG space, or whateverthree-letter acronyms we're not
(22:45):
supposed to say anymore, and thebuilding inclusive teams that
perform better because theresearch tells us they do, or
the you know, thinking about thesustainability environmental
sustainability and the risks toour business.
I think what you'll see is apivot in the B Corp community
now.
I think we were leaders in thewe must talk about this space,
(23:08):
and so when I talk about that,sometimes it sounds like I'm
like oh, I don't talk about it,but I also think now is the next
phase of that like, oh, we talkabout it and we put the thing
on our website and we arecommitted to this.
And now I think what you'll seeis a pivot to a lot more action
.
And my hope is, in 10 years nowyou'll be able to see some like
incredible.
You know case studies like a,like a Grayson bakery who
(23:32):
started this in the eighties,but like they're open hiring
concept hiring concept, it'sgreater.
There's workforce developmentprogram, like I think you're
going to see a lot of really,really cool stuff that Maybe
before was more, I don't knowlike less action oriented.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I think you'll start to say more in theory before you
know having ideas, but nowpeople are putting those ideas
into action and really makingpurposeful decisions for their
company and for theircommunities.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yes, yes, and I think I don't know.
I think that's good, I thinkthat's going to be a really,
really good thing for thecommunity because we'll be able
to stand here and and stand onprofit and stand on also like
being able to share thosetangible stories of being the
leaders.
And you know, if you believe inthis and you believe that it's
the right thing to do and again,I'm not asking anybody to be
(24:28):
the loudest person in the roombut and kind of investing in our
own businesses, you knowthere's a reason multinationals
are doing this.
There's a reason and I knowthat was a contentious thing in
the B Corp community with, youknow, nespresso getting
certified, some of thesemultinationals getting certified
.
But to me, like, if they'redoing this and they're huge,
(24:53):
there's something about it.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Maybe I should look at it.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yes, future-proofing your business.
And you know and again, we cantalk about that later or not at
all, but I'm always happy tohave that conversation of.
To me, that's when the businesscase is starting to be made is
when you get companies who makedecisions based off the bottom
line doing the right thingbecause it's the right thing for
the bottom line and I don'treally care if that's why
(25:16):
somebody's doing it.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, I mean I know you've worked on 25 or so B Corp
certification projects.
Maybe that number's wrong, butthat's what I have.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Like 42.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Oh, it's more than that.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So that prospect asked me to give him a number.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
I put a spreadsheet together.
Excellent, all right.
So what do you think, in yourexperience, is the biggest
challenge that companies facewhen trying to align profit and
purpose?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Oh, the biggest.
I might have to do a couple.
I'll share them from oppositeends.
I see one is people think that,oh, we want to do B Corp, and
then you get into it and it's ahard standard to hit.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
And so, as we go through this, and if you're not
willing to do this, and we don'twant to do an annual impact
report, or we don't really wantto be transparent with our
employees in that way, well, wedon't really want to like be
transparent with our employeesin that way.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Well, we don't really have that bad, you know, and
it's not just this will costsomething.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's just kind of like, um, you know it sounds
good, but that's an extra costthere and like, I get it.
You know, cost that up, but atsome point, if you're not
willing to do the work, to get bcourt.
Nobody okay, very rarely hasthat had to happen.
Does anybody just come in andgo.
I took my first run to theassessment and we're at 130, you
need 80.
Most people come in like, oh,we took our first run to the
(26:47):
assessment and we're like at 42.
So there's a lot of work tofind that other 38 points in the
assessment.
And there are companies who Ithink come in and I don't know
if they think they that this isa viable certification, um, but
it isn't, so we're gonna have todo some.
So I can, for the most part youcan kind of tell going into
(27:09):
this whether this is in theowner's dna or um.
They think it's just going tobe an easy layup.
And you also meet the ones whoknow it won't be an easy layup,
know they have a long way to goand are like telling you like no
, this is it, we're in, I wantthis.
Like you are going to work withme, you're going to coach me on
what we need to do, you'regoing to help us implement it.
And those are kind of myfavorite clients because those
(27:30):
are like what was the old FranzKafka book, the, the, the
metamorphosis, why?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
metamorphosis Yep.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I have no idea, but it's kind of like you get to see
the whole the transformationthe whole fair vandalism of the,
the whole transformation ofthese companies from like good
into something really great, andyou see the employees get
excited and you see them, youknow, actually make really,
really, really big strides inthe way they run their business,
(28:00):
and so to me those are the mostrewarding.
But yeah, I think, coming inwith the expectations of it
being a little too simple, ormaybe they did think that it was
kind of a, not a pay to play.
But, like you know, we'll checkthe boxes, we'll fill out the
thing and then we will becertified.
But we'll check a couple boxes,we'll fill out the thing and
then we'll be certified.
Yes, and it is contrary to whata now infamous soap company
(28:22):
says.
It is not easy for mostcompanies to get to the
certification.
You can't just buy your waythere.
You can, but to buy your waythere would mean benefits and
pay raises and all these things.
To get your points up.
You can technically buy yourway there, but everybody that
works for you is going to bevery grateful that you did so.
I think that's important tocall out too.
(28:43):
Like the only way to buyyourself is like I guess we
bought a lot of benefits for ourteam or you know like so
there's not a lot.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
We're trying to improve morale in a way.
So this is one way and ourclimate, culture and our climate
and our organization.
So we're just going to yeah,we're going to pay.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yeah, yeah, and you're going to pay in your
client.
I did have that happen one timewhere a company they weren't
going to get full points for100% of employees making a
family living wage and they hadsomebody younger, single, no
children, who was like 25 centsan hour off.
Literally we're on with theanalyst from B-Lab and the CEO
(29:20):
went into Gusto gave him a 50cents an hour raise.
I was like, oh, that employee'sgonna love them some B Corp.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yep, oh, that's funny .
So when you start working witha company and I know this
depends on you know that theinitial intake score that they
have along with you know.
When you guys start workingwith a company and I know this
depends on you know that theinitial intake score that they,
that they have along with youknow.
When you guys start workingtogether, how long does it
usually take for a company toget certified?
I know there's variables,multiple variables to talk about
(29:48):
here, but in general, if youhad to give us, you know the
average I mean average.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
it should be about a I don't want to say a year,
because it can move fasterDepends how big the company is
and how complex it is.
Like how much data are we goingto have to pull and also are we
pulling data or are we pullingdata?
You know what I mean.
Do you have nine employees ordo you have, you know, 340
employees?
Where it's like, okay, thisbecomes a lot more intricate,
(30:28):
intricate, and then I think itdepends on the level of effort
of you know, are they one ofthose that came in at a 40 or
one of those that came in at a72, where you're like, oh, we're
pretty much.
You know, we're documentingsome stuff and then we need to
figure out where these othereight points are going to come
from.
But there's not a ton to dohere other than to make sure
that you answer these questionscorrectly, that you can prove
that you're doing the answersyou claimed and those types of
things.
But I would say, from start tosubmit three months and then a
couple months in evaluation andthen right now I think it's up
(30:49):
to four to six months inverification.
So you should be able to get itdone within a year.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That's bad.
In the grand scheme of things,it's not bad at all.
A year goes by quickly.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, and a lot of times you'll get clients like I
have one right now still aprospect, but they are very they
want to do B Corp.
They've been in business forabout a year so they're very
excited.
Like you have to be in businessfor a year so they're ready to
do it.
But also we started talkingabout the community section of
(31:23):
the assessment and they werevery hesitant of like we haven't
done as much as we want to asfar as our strategic impacts.
That was part of why we want tobring you in, because we know
you're so and they want to buildout a really cool mentoring
program.
They want to do some, some,some work with some HBCUs up in
the Northeast.
So like they really have thesecrazy, amazing aspirational
ideas they just don't know howto execute.
So we're going to use that timewhile we're waiting in the
(31:46):
queue and waiting for an analystto really go deep in on their
strategic impact and you know,and roadmap out.
Okay, if this is the end goal,is this mentorship program with
students from an HBCU, like whatis the end of year one goal?
Because it's not going to bethere yet.
So how do we start to figureout how to set them up for
(32:07):
success as they work towardsthese things and really have the
impact they want?
And how do we not have zeroimpact until we get to finish
dream ideal state?
So that'll be the fun part, butwe can use some of the downtime
.
While we're just again waitingin line for a B-Lab analyst to
free up to look at ourassessment, we can use that time
to kind of work on some of theother stuff, some of the
(32:28):
implementation, some of thenetwork connections, making sure
people get to meet other peoplein their industry or potential
buyers or just people I thinkthat they will become friends
with in the B Corp community.
So using as much of thatdowntime as possible to do
something you know productivefor them.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Yeah, I love that.
And when we met before, youknow we talked about some of the
projects that you've worked onand networking and making those
connections.
So what advice do you have forbusiness owners?
Maybe just starting out couldbe students too.
You know of how to get your.
I don't even want to say getyour foot in the door, but but
take those steps to attend,whether it's a community meeting
(33:06):
or you know a local governor, alocal town hall, just to get
you know your face out there,your name out there, that you
want to be involved.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, I mean a lot of regions have be locals so we've
got like be local.
Georgia.
We do virtual stuff, most ofit's in person, some of them are
just volunteer days, so likethere's a ton of ways to get
involved.
I will say same thing from astudent perspective.
There's a lot of people in theB Corp community, I mean I think
in the general businesscommunity, that will'll make
time for students, because wewere all a student at some point
(33:38):
, even if we didn't go tocollege.
We were a student in highschool.
We were a young professionaltrying to figure out our career.
So I would definitely play thestudent card as much as you can.
But what was the other one?
Small business, I'd also sayreally for anybody, small
business, even though you haveto be a for-profit business to
certify, the assessment tool isfree.
(33:59):
So whether you're a smallbusiness or a college within a
university or a department, likeyou can use that assessment and
go through it and kind of lookat like how are we doing
according to these standards?
And again, you're never goingto certify, but you can use that
tool as kind of a framework forimprovement.
And for small businesses, youngbusinesses I mean, as soon as I
(34:22):
hit one year.
I submitted my assessmentbecause I was ready.
Use it as a foundational pieceto build the company that you
want to be when you grow up.
You know thinking about thatfuture state and where do we
want to be?
Because some stuff won't berealistic at the beginning.
You know, small sometimes it'snot.
We're going to do a healthcarestipend but we can't get a
(34:42):
policy.
Or you know we probably won'thave a 401k for a couple of
years, but we want one, so let'saccrue for one.
Like some of those things oflike, what do we want to be and
what are these actually going tocost?
Are we out?
What is the viable way to getto said desired state?
(35:04):
I think the B impact assessment,which is the verification tool,
is an incredible, incredibleasset to kind of look through.
And even if you're justwondering, like I don't know how
much secondary caregiver leaveyou're going to have, does
anybody think about that whenthey're starting a business?
No, does anybody think aboutthat when they're starting a
business?
No, is anybody thinking aboutvolunteer time off or paid time
off?
Or, you know, is our 401k goingto have a sustainable investing
option?
Like, you're not thinking aboutthese things?
(35:25):
So not that they shoulddistract from your main business
, but it doesn't hurt to kind ofput these, plant these seeds in
your head, for you know,because the last thing you want
to do is get so far out of thestable.
Look how many analogies can Iuse.
Out of the harbor, out of thestable, toothpaste out of the
tube.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
So far out, though, that now you don't have to put a
new window on the house, youhave to bulldoze the house, tear
up the foundation andcompletely start over, and it
becomes kind of turning theocean liner versus turning the
speedboat as far as the amountof effort now to kind of correct
early foundational mistakes inbuilding this with intention and
building what you wanted tobuild and the kind of company
(36:07):
that you wanted to build andwill be proud of.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, no, I love that .
That's absolutely great adviceand I definitely want to have
you on another time to talkabout future proofing your
business, because I feel like wecould have an entire episode
just on that.
Just on that.
But for those who are listening, if you are on the podcast
(36:30):
webpage, we will put a link toto be corp, to the certification
, just to get some moreinformation to our listeners.
But if people want to contactyou, get in touch with you.
What is the best method?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Let's see LinkedIn.
I'm a LinkedIn junkie.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think most of us are.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's the only one worth Every other
one too.
I just get sucked in.
We have Be Local Georgia.
We have an Instagram for thenonprofit, but yeah, I'll go on
to like post.
The next thing you know, I'vewatched an hour's worth of reels
and you're like where did myday go?
So I'm pretty much there.
Yes, Pretty weird LinkedIn'snow, like here, there's videos.
(37:10):
I'm like not interested, Nope,Just just not interested.
So, yeah, so I'm, so I'm prettymuch on there.
You can also get, you canconnect through our website
ProfitablePurposeConsultingcombut chances are I'm always on
LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Okay, wonderful.
Well, thank you for being onwith us.
I've enjoyed it.
Ask yourself how can Icontribute to a brighter, more
sustainable future yourself?
How can I contribute to abrighter, more sustainable
future, not just personally, butprofessionally?
Let's embark on this journeytogether and shape the landscape
of sustainable leadership fortomorrow.
Take the first step now andmake a commitment to lead with
(37:49):
sustainability in mind.
That's all for this episode ofSustainability Unveiled.
Join us next time as wecontinue exploring the forefront
of sustainable businesspractices.
Until then, stay informed, staysustainable.
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