December 1, 2021 • 37 mins
This week I have convinced my wonderfully talented co-host to share some more insights into her financial background as we introduce our last pillar, finessing your finances.
We share why we have included our financial pillar and set minds at ease. We are not financial advisors nor do we plan to be giving any direct investment advice.
Instead we want to bring awareness to the power that comes with a solid financial mindset, paired with some probing questions to help you identify when your financial literacy might need further curiosity.
Simple things like do you really know where your money is, how much ROI your cash is giving you, including super, that you have enough squirreled away that you don’t need to tolerate an untenable situation - be that a manager or working environment and that you have not given your power. To explore our behaviour around money, conscious & subconscious and to acknowledge that as women we are far less comfortable discussing finances and therefore we are not supporting each other in this super important space
My interview with Claire explores her background in the financial industry, some insights and observations of the financial world. Find out how the average women responds when Claire shares she is from this world and a great discussion on how we start conversations with our friends and family around finance. And we need to start! We share some startling findings around Australian women’s financial literacy and some books, articles & pods to get you started.
SHOW NOTES:
The Barefoot Investor, Scott Pape
Own It, Sallie Krawshuck
The Broke Generation, Emma Edwards
Winging It, Emma Isaacs
She’s on the Money, Victoria Devine
ARTICLE & REFERENCE LINKS:
https://esacentral.org.au/images/PrestonWright.pdf
https://www.lowellsun.com/2021/02/28/how-the-left-and-right-brain-affects-your-finances/
Music created by Claire's daughter Hannah
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Claire (00:00):
Welcome to the elevate with grace podcast, for women
who are short on time and longto take steps to create success
on their own terms.
Our aim is to curate and sharethe best tips, insights, and
knowledge from all of thecontent out there.
Then take the brain strain outof it by giving you the, so
what, and some immediateactionable steps for you to slot
seamlessly into your life eachweek that will help propel you
(00:21):
from where you are to where youwant to.
In each episode, we take a lookinto one of the pillars of our
elevate with grace success onyour own terms model, where we
explore taking smart risks,cultivating our careers and
fueling our financial power.
These three elements worktogether even better when we
look at them within the broadercontext of the bigger picture
(00:42):
aspirations we have for what wewant our lives to be like and
also paying attention to notletting stuff that might be
holding us back, get in our way.
Miranda (00:49):
Hi, I'm Miranda and welcome to an exciting episode
on the elevate with gracepodcasts suite.
If you have been listening for alittle while now, and you will
have heard us talk about thesethree pillars, cultivating
career success, taking smartrisks and building your
financial muscle in this lastpillar, I am still very much a
wide-eyed student, but myco-host Claire has had an
incredible career in thefinancial sector thus far so we
(01:12):
are actually going to beinterviewing her and getting a
little bit more background intothe financial sector.
Before we jump into thisinterview though, like we didn't
last episode, I would just liketo start by sharing why we've
included a financial pillar inour success model and to see.
I think our minds and just alsoclarity around what we mean by
(01:33):
focusing on the financial piece.
We are not in any way financialadvisors, nor do we plan to be
giving any direct investmentadvice.
Instead, we want to bring someawareness to the power that
comes with a solid financialmindset, paired with some
probing questions to help youidentify where your financial
literacy might be at.
And some further curiositiesaround these financial matters,
(01:56):
simple things like, do youreally know where your money is?
How much ROI, why is your cashgiving you including super.
do You have enough squirreledaway that you don't need to
tolerate an untenable situation,be that a difficult manager or a
difficult working environment,and that you have not given away
your financial power to somebodyelse.
To explore our behavior aroundmoney conscious and
subconscious.
(02:17):
And to acknowledge that aswomen, we are far less
comfortable discussing financesand therefore not necessarily
supporting each other in thisspace like passing on investment
tips, taxable benefits, etcetera, Claire, I know your
suggestions have encouraged meto date to up my buffer funds
and it really does offer moreoptions for every decision tree
(02:37):
type moment.
Claire (02:38):
Yeah, I think you've explained that beautifully
Miranda.
I think you've obviously beenlistening to me talk about
financial stuff for many months,everything you said is spot on.
I think many women, don't have alinear trajectory as much as
men, when it comes to career inlife.
There's some challenges that weface as women in all sorts of
aspects of our life as we gothrough there.
(02:59):
And so I think one of thereasons why financial freedom
and fueling your financial powerso intricate to our model is
because it really is related tothe career progression and the
trajectory that we have.
We might take time out to lookup to kids we might take, and
that might be when their babiesthat might be later on and or
maybe we need to care for othersin our lives, and we need some
(03:21):
of that runway.
And so I think that's why whenwe're thinking about career and
taking smart risks and fuelingour financial power and what
that means within our bigaspirations for us.
There's a lot of thought that weneed to lean into and put into
what as we'll talk about alittle bit in this podcast, I
think much more than we'rereally doing right now as women.
And it's important that we talkabout some of that stuff as part
(03:43):
of our model.
Miranda (03:44):
Yes.
I have been loving yourinspiration and definitely
learning from you.
And I'm so excited that nextyear we'll actually explore this
area in more detail and maybeshare some of those those
insights and that inspirationwith our beautiful listeners.
It's so intertwined withcultivating your career and that
smart risk-taking as havingsomething really set up for
yourself is quite key.
(04:05):
For today, let's dive into thisinterview and learn more about
my inspirational and verytalented co-host.
Claire grew up as an expat kidliving in Hong Kong and
Singapore from eight to 17before heading over to Australia
for university, starting out thegate as a tax consultant,
earnest young, and then a shortstint in the financial
(04:25):
recruitment.
He ended up at to NIV where shebuilt a 12 year powerhouse
career working her way into headof roles before landing at HESTA
in a general manager capacity,somewhere in the 12 years,
Claire also took on her MBA.
There was no study break firstbalancing career and study, and
then study.
And her first daughter, she wentback to NAB where her role had
(04:47):
been made redundant, but hertenacity and resilience had her
leaning into her executivenetwork until she secured her
next role, which was also abroader head of department role
so much to unpack and a huge andmassive welcome to our first
interview guest, Clairecornfield.
Claire (05:04):
Thanks Miranda for that.
Very comprehensive and humblingintroduction at the same time.
I must say it's a bit of aninteresting feeling being here
as an interviewee instead of asa cohost, but as always, I'm
very excited for our podcastchats.
And so let's do this.
Miranda (05:22):
Fantastic.
So over the past few episodes,we've learnt a little bit about
you.
However, I am confident ourlisteners would love to
understand more about yourfinance financial background.
Have you always been interestedin finance?
What drove you to first studyingaccounting and taking on the
modern life?
That is the financial sector?
Claire (05:41):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question.
And I think if I could probablydive it, if you think, and look
back over your life and referback to when we were little kids
and we'll talk a little bitabout the importance of talking
about money in family and at thedinner table a little bit later
on, but I think.
If I was going to summarize itin a nutshell at high school, I
(06:02):
didn't really get into theaccounting and finance subject
specifically until university.
But when I was at high school,particularly in the more senior
years, I would have to say thatmy two favorite subjects were
economics and geography.
With both of those subjects, Iliked the breadth of what was
being taught.
So in the.
You would spend from the microlevel of what it means within
(06:23):
the smallest family or communitysetting, right through to board,
social and economic impacts forcountries and globally.
And so when I came back toAustralia, I applied to do a
bachelor of commerce atMelbourne uni.
To continue with that economicsaspect of what I'd loved at
school.
I recall actually having anaspiration to work for the
(06:44):
economist magazine at the timethat I applied, gosh, man, I
really am a geek, but then Istarted to pick up more specific
accounting and finance subjectsalong with the economics
subjects at university.
And truth be told, I stumbledinto continuing with the narrow
field of accounting and financeand not the economics path,
because at uni there was anopportunity offered to second
(07:08):
year commerce students to applyfor a summer holiday cadet ship
that was being offered by AYAand their tax consulting
practice.
And so I applied, I got acceptedand I suppose you could say the
rest was history.
When I think about yourquestion, I think the world of
finance has a connection withwhy I enjoyed the economics and
(07:28):
geography subjects at schoolbecause finance also has a micro
application in our homes in thehomes of everyday Australians.
And it's also very significantlyimportant.
At the societal and economicmacro level too.
And I think I liked the breadthof the discipline, and the
people that I worked with and awhole bunch of other stuff that
I liked the breadth of thediscipline and the significance
(07:48):
at the human level and as wellat the national and global
level.
And I think that's probablywhat's kept me interested for a
long time.
Miranda (07:54):
Firstly, congratulations on being one of
the 30% of women that actuallywas studying economics So
there's a study I've heard inspeeches.
I went digging and I found,Jackie Dwyer head of information
at RBI, there was a bank ofAustralia has been pushing this
fact that in 1995, we were aboutequal men and women, studying
economics in high school.
(08:16):
So year 12 economics, it wasabout 50% which followed through
to university.
In 2017 only 31% of women werestudying economics and 20, 64%
of men.
And that is both in year 12.
And of course also inuniversity, being that they
follow through.
So there's quite a big gapthere.
(08:37):
And I can definitely say that.
You know that early interestthat you had.
And I'm wanting to studyeconomics at university,
obviously being quite unique inthat way.
So congratulations,
Claire (08:47):
Thank you.
I think there probably wouldhave been some influences at
school.
So the school that I went to inSingapore, we spoke a lot with
the career coaches and stufflike that, about where we would
go, afterschool.
And I would probably have to saythat.
Dad would have been influentialin that too.
I was quite fine with theeconomics and geography and them
pushing me towards the economicsand perhaps that will maybe help
(09:09):
make you more money in thelongterm.
And I was like, okay.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Miranda (09:14):
It's a hope that Jackie gets her way because Jackie
Dwight has been pushing to bringin economics as a core.
And they didn't say anythingabout Singapore, but over 20
states in America now have thisas a mandatory high school
education.
And I think financial literacyis really so important to how we
go about our daily lives.
So not having.
He's a pretty big deficit.
Claire (09:34):
Yeah.
And not to distract us too muchon a tangent.
But the other part of it is too.
Highly important.
I think there's a whole bunch ofreports that we can go into
about young people in Australiafeeling like there's a real
general sense that no one isgiving them enough financial
literacy and education.
So parents that are in the spacewho are talking to them about
(09:54):
what superannuation, they'reputting their money into, how to
fill out a tax return, how to doa budget.
And a lot of it is reliant onthe conversations that you're
having and the financialliteracy that exists in your
home because we're not costingit at school enough.
And yeah, I think it's a bigdeal.
I think there's a lot of peopleplaying in that space to get
more of that education.
(10:14):
And I think young people intheir twenties would say
themselves that they wish wewere doing more of that stuff in
the school system.
Yeah,
Miranda (10:21):
definitely.
And I think there's things youdo learn in that mask that could
even be switched out for a bitof economics
Claire (10:25):
call me if we're going to talk about anything today,
from a mass perspective, I wantto talk about compound interest
because that's the key thing inall of this and risk, but I
think one of the other thingstoo, is if you're going into a
leadership career in acorporate, a lot of the skills
that they focus on is,relationship building skills,
all of the soft skills that are.
(10:47):
Natural for women and probablynot for men.
And so they're more aligned towhat men need to lead and what
the missing piece.
I think it's called the missing33% and what the missing piece
is, what we're not telling womenis that.
You need to talk about outcomesif you're in a commercial
organization in order to standout, and if you are interested
(11:07):
in progressing your career, youneed to be talking about
strategy, commercial outcomes.
What's the financial benefits ofdoing stuff for the
organization?
No one gets the memo on thatoften from a female perspective
Miranda (11:18):
definitely something we could talk about for a long
time, but let's go back.
So from Ernest young, whatmotivated the decision to join
NAB?
And what were your ambitionswhen you started?
Did you dream of being the CEOof NAB?
Claire (11:30):
I did not dream of being the CEO of NAB, I wouldn't say
that I don't have ambitions tobe CEO either for me.
I guess it's mostly aboutfinding my place in the world
where I feel like I can make amaterial positive impact on my
colleagues, customers and theteams that I work with and in my
early twenties, I really enjoyedthe challenge of the work I was
(11:51):
doing and the amazingly switchedon people I got to work with.
But I think I wasn't quite sureat such a young age that a
career in charter the county.
Was for me, I am heavily slantedto the extrovert end of the
spectrum.
Back when I started my career, Ifelt like I was standing out
like a beacon of extrovertedthem in the world of channel
(12:12):
accounting and I just wasn'tcomfortable enough in my
twenties to own that standingout from the crowd.
So obviously extrovert in anobviously introverted culture.
So I went and did recruitmentfor a bit, and I really enjoyed
that for about 18 months, then Idecided I want to do some travel
overseas and I'd only half donemy chartered accounting
qualification before I left E Y.
(12:34):
So I jumped back into acorporate tax role at Heinz.
To finish my Charteredaccounting qualification.
So that from there I did a yeartraveling around the world.
When I got back to Australia Ilanded a job in the tax team at
NAB if I look back on it, Ithink what I was keen to do was
to work in one of the largestRaelian, based organizations.
(12:58):
So the big four banks were anobvious example who leave with a
commerce degree, and charteredaccounting qualification.
I wanted to do that because Ifelt that it would be likely at
a young age that I'd be able tofigure out some things.
What kind of environment suitedme, what type of work that I
like to do.
So that was probably the driverfor looking at big organizations
(13:20):
at the time.
It paid off in terms of gettingan opportunity to work in
different parts of a largerorganization and building out a
career in that way
Miranda (13:29):
so from chartered accounting to operations and
managing tech teams overseas,Wow.
The gamut that you've been ableto create.
Does talk to that bigorganization and the ability to
shift and move.
So really cool.
There, can you talk through someof the opportunities and
challenges of working in thefinancial sector?
Claire (13:46):
Yeah.
So I think one of the keyopportunities is exactly that
what we've just talked about andis, and I think it goes all the
way back to probably my parentsand my teachers at school
gearing me down that economicspath and the accounting path.,
I've worked in tax.
then I moved to financialreporting and then I've done
operations where you're lookingafter the back office operations
(14:06):
and processing of variousinformation to the banks.
I've worked with offshore teamsin India.
State-based teams on largescale.
And so the breadth of the rolesI was able to do within NAB was
fabulous.
You can learn a lot aboutyourself as you go along.
I like having loyalty to anorganization of that.
But also you didn't run out ofbandwidth as you move through.
(14:27):
So that's definitely oneopportunity.
Another opportunity is that youwork with a wide and diverse
array of people.
A lot of what I've learned isbecause of the huge variety of
people, I've had the humbleprivilege of working with in the
financial services sector, truthbe told.
I've also learned a lot fromoccasionally bad interactions
(14:48):
too.
Let's put that on the table.
It's not always from the goodinteractions is certainly made
some Rocky periods in there.
Miranda (14:54):
We all do though.
I actually think any badexperience.
You learn so much more from thatmaybe because it we react more
to pain or something yeah what Idon't want to do.
Yeah.
Talk to you maybe longer tolearn from the good managers.
Yeah.
Claire (15:07):
How you don't want to be, how that, how you don't want
to make other people feel andall that sort of stuff.
A great example from that, andwe weren't talking about it
today, but we have talked aboutit previously and it is so
integrated with the importanceof having financial independence
and freedom.
You know what COVID teaches youis.
Over time.
Like we don't have certaintyover time.
And so bad experiences can giveyou a lot more clarity about
(15:31):
what you're doing don't want todo.
So mostly it was greatexperiences.
I went now, but the odd, bad onealso helped from a learning
perspective.
I need to call out that a careerin finance can usually often pay
well as well.
So being financially independentand financially empowered.
To make choices in my life isvery important to me.
Freedom is one of my corevalues, freedom for myself and
(15:57):
others and having money, andworking in a career path that
pays well was part of it.
I'd have to say.
Basic level from a challengesperspective the corporate
politics in large financialservices organizations.
Again Corporate politics iseverywhere, right?
Not just in financial servicesorganizations, but one of the
(16:18):
things that I found challengingwas the corporate politics.
I'm not very good at being awareof it and navigating within it.
I try to do that and.
Often, I just want to be myselfand just get on.
The organizational change andrestructures is constant and
ongoing in large financialservices organizations.
(16:39):
Most of the time I've oftenleveraged it and benefited from
it.
One thing I do think aboutthough, is that for the majority
of my career, up until about thelast three years or so.
I wasn't the majority primarycaregiver for my children who
are now eight and 10 my partnerwas working part time for a lot
of the time I had my mom and mydad also contributing to that
(17:03):
sharing of the, of the childcareduties along with myself.
And if I think about the lastcouple of years, and it's had to
become more visible in my worksituation, that I am a mum who
has had support her kids.
First, and I do believe to acertain degree that my career
progression has been impacted bythat, by have people having that
(17:25):
perception, to what extent, timewill tell, I suppose, and I
don't regret any of that, but Ido think that my success at NAB
over those years, I just feellike it's really important to
call it out that, I did havethat a lot more distributed
childcare support and probablyfor it.
Cause that's just happened inthe last couple of years.
(17:45):
And I do think that can, I'mjust more aware of that I
suppose, for women.
Miranda (17:48):
I think most women in leadership that understand that
you can do both and you can doboth really well and that you
don't need to do really longwork days to actually succeed.
You can be far more efficientthat you offer a lot more soft
skills.
Maybe the workplace is a greatconversation that we need to
have, but we need to see womenin leadership to make sure that
the knee-jerk reaction out ofthis COVID pandemic time when
(18:12):
people have seen a lot more mumscome to front is that they
support and they celebrate thosewomen, not, pass them over the
career progression because ofthat of the covid reveal.
Claire (18:22):
Yeah.
And I think there's a lot ofhope in the COVID experience for
many organizations.
Demonstrate that we don't haveto all be in bricks and mortar
buildings from nine to five 30.
There's a lot more women likeEmma Isaacs that we're talking
about your lead leave loudly.
And there's a lot moreconversation about that, which
I'm hopeful for.
And I think the reality is toothat the millennials, are much
(18:43):
more strong about not working inthose sort of corporate cultures
that kind of promote and rewardthe greedy work as it's sort of
known.
I think a lot going to change inthe workforce over the next few
years, but I do think if Ireflect on the last two to three
years versus the last 12 years,unfortunately, it's still done.
Have some impact to how you'reviewed at work?
(19:05):
It's an important thing toconsider.
Miranda (19:07):
And if we all thought about it, want work to be 18 now
is about dying.
Every day.
We need to be allowed to have alife and have a career and
there's countries that can do itreally, really well.
I mean, France not allowed towork after to 7:00 PM.
It's illegal to send an emaillike you can't have.
Claire (19:24):
Now I'm bringing my macro lens to this.
I think it is that combinationof.
Individuals.
Executive women that I've workedwith one of the things that some
of the inspiring ones will takeEmma Isaac's view and told me to
leave loudly.
And because you need to beshowing younger women that you
can have, and then that you canhave the career and talk about
(19:45):
the fact that men do work parttime and all that sort of stuff.
So be vocal about it from anindividual perspective, I think
is important, but there is agovernment.
Responsibility to get involvedin that space and the corporates
responsibility.
So it's kind of that combinedthing.
Miranda (19:58):
You mentioned just then about some wonderful women that
have supported you.
I wonder if there's any othergreat teachings or messages that
you would be open to sharing forsome of those wonderful women in
the financial sector thatperhaps helped your progression
through your career thus far?
Claire (20:11):
Yes, you're right.
I've worked for some wonderfulmen and women, we need to be
shouting more loudly about otherwomen and how amazing they are.
A lot of that stuff needs tocome about.
So you're right.
I have worked with some amazingfemale leadership in financial
services.
It may not always land well incertain organizations or
situations, but continuing tothink about myself as a role
model for younger women, mydaughters and all that sort of
(20:32):
stuff, and conduct myself in myleadership is definitely,
something that I've been taughtpreviously.
To flex my leadership andprofessional style for different
contextual situations.
So if you're speaking to aboard, you need to speak
differently to the board than ifyou're speaking to someone on a
one-on-one and that person whomay be motivated by different
things.
Maybe somehow you might changeyour style slightly.
(20:54):
Now that's not to mean that Youknow authentic yourself.
And so that's the challenge.
So you do need to flex yourstyle in leadership context for
the audience that you need towork with.
then you just need to find theauthentic way to still be
yourself, but be aware that yourprofessional brand does have an
element of how you're presentingin different contexts.
Stop worrying about so muchabout being liked was, I really
(21:17):
found that hard to do.
And so having senior femalementors kind of press that
point, you're not going to beliked by everyone.
Not everyone's going to likeyour leadership decisions and
you need to make sure that thatdoesn't sway those leadership
decisions that you're making orthe choices that you're making.
I touched on before about thecommercial impacts to the role
(21:38):
you're doing, particularly inlarge corporate organizations
with shareholders, probably thisapplies in all contexts about
being clear on what's thecurrent situation or the current
problem that you're looking at,what's the future state of that
problem.
And where are the big thingswhere you can turn the dial and
then focusing your energy onthem, but doing that sort of
(21:58):
what's the future state looklike in this situation?
What's the current state to helpyou map out those processes and
make material differences thatget noticed to the organization
above.
That's definitely something I'velearned.
And really about backing myselfand being myself.
So if I can't be myself and feellike there's something not quite
right, and I'm not able to be myauthentic self in a particular
(22:20):
work environment, then I need tolisten to my gut more.
You know, a little bit of thisstuff.
We've talked about strategicwinning in the past and a couple
of episodes.
Like you don't have to persevereevery time.
Yes.
Persevere is important.
Yes.
It's important.
Yes.
Sticking in the roles important.
But if you got, and your heartis telling you that this is not
quite the right, I'm notthriving in this situation, then
(22:43):
I'm trying to get better.
Yeah.
So taking that advice that I'vehad over the years and moving on
quicker than I probably havedone in the past.
So yeah, this, some of thethings that I've learned from
some of the amazing women thatI've worked fantastic advice.
We've definitely seen thatcoming through as some really
important messaging.
All of those messages are thingsthat we can use in any sector,
not set to the financial sector,that these are very much
(23:05):
transferred with skills acrossthe board Observations.
Have you made where other womenmight respond differently to you
when you share that you work in
Miranda (23:11):
finance?
Claire (23:12):
Maybe aren't in your sector, do you sort of notice
anyone being a little bit like,oh, okay.
And sort of backing away oranything like that?
I'm not sure I've made a directlink that they're backing away
from me because I say I work infinance or something else.
There's probably other elementsthere, but I haven't noticed a
particular reaction to thefinance.
Miranda (23:32):
You work in finance.
Great tonight.
I think when I make somebodymany sector, but definitely the
financial sector, I'm alwaysvery curious about the areas
they work in, what it involves.
So I think that curiosity,whenever we make people is
always lovely.
We spoke about a couple ofepisodes ago that maybe a better
question to ask people when youfirst meet them.
What are you passionate aboutright now?
What are you still being projectrather than necessarily?
(23:54):
Oh, what's your job.
Oh, your accountant.
Okay, cool.
I've already stereotyped you.
I've put you in a.
I mean for me personally, Idefinitely feel like the
financial ward has its owncodes.
And perhaps that there is like afear that if we ask more
questions, we're going to lookkind of silly if we don't
understand that Intel.
And, there's probably a littlebit of financial literacy gaps
there.
(24:14):
I wonder also if there's anembarrassment factor, when they
sort of admit to you because youwork in the financial sector.
Oh, I haven't done my taxes.
I have no idea what my superreally is.
Has some kind of controls thefinances.
Have you seen or felt any ofthat awkwardness in
conversations with women?
Claire (24:31):
Yeah, I think this is a really excellent question and
this is really close to myheart.
I haven't really noticed anawkwardness in having financial
conversations because womennever want to have financial
conversations.
I don't know whether it'sawkward to talk to someone that
financial literacy is reasonablyhigh, but I actually get a sense
of feeling, I think there's alot of stats to support this is
(24:52):
that women just don't talk aboutthis anywhere near enough and
anywhere near as much as theyshould be, which is why it's so
important to me that it's partof our elevate with grace
success model, because I thinkit's super important.
What's your experience?
do you, do you ever talk aboutmoney with anyone else?
Not really.
I mean, it's interesting.
There was a couple of girls inmy work place who have
investment and so we definitelyhave that conversation and
(25:14):
support each other with insightsand things that we found.
Miranda (25:17):
I think actually it would feel quite uncomfortable
talking about other peoplesometimes you have some sort of
preface it, will you apologizefor it?
I don't know.
And I it's just talking aboutfinance, until we are actually
much more comfortable to talkabout these things.
I definitely know my husbanddoes have these conversations
with his family and it's been aconsistent conversation.
Claire (25:35):
I think the important thing for me the family
conversation, but then thefamily conversation is talking
to sons and daughters.
Research out there that say thatwomen defer to their husbands or
partners to look after thefinance arrangements in their
household.
And then that does become aproblem when divorce happens or
when the male partner of therelationship dies or whoever's
looking after the finances.
(25:56):
And so I think there's so muchgreat content out there.
There's great books.
It's about spending a bit oftime to learn those basic
concepts and.
They're not that complicated.
It's just about choosing tolearn it.
And then when more of us arelearning it and talking about
it, but being okay, like, Iguess we have to be, we have to
be less ashamed about the factthat we don't know anything
(26:17):
about it and be more open.
Hey I don't know enough aboutfinances and I want to learn
more and get curious about it,like an asking.
And I know that women don't talkabout what they get paid.
Like men talk about it a lotmore.
There's adequate to say that aswell.
And I often talk about how muchI get paid and it's like, I
haven't said anything.
I don't talk about it with everyrandom person, but I do indicate
(26:39):
to girlfriends like, oh, youknow, I got offered this role
and it paid this much, or I'mgetting this much as a daily
rate per hour.
It just drops on the floor, butI'm still committed because I
think it's like, People don'thave to share what they get paid
back, but I think it's helpfulto know like, what pay is out
there.
I mean, I've in the pastspecifically asked trusted men
(27:01):
that I've worked with who wereat the same level what they get
paid to make sure that I'mgetting paid the same.
And it's hard.
It's hard to be that vulnerable.
And it's hard to sound silly,but tell us if it's worth it.
Miranda (27:11):
Yeah.
Conscious and subconsciouslywomen have certainly been geared
towards softer skills and maybenot as much in that financial
literacy space, I went and doveinto some research and did
actually find, HILDA study,which is house out income, labor
division in Australia.
It's performed by the MelbourneInstitute, at the uni of
Melbourne.
And this Hilda survey found thatbasic financial literacy that
(27:35):
there is an 11% gap between menand women.
So 3.75 to 4.17.
This gets high when we go intomore advanced financial
literacy.
So there's a lot of scary thingsin this report around poverty
and such.
And look, I think it's somethingwe can dig into more next year.
I think this idea of financialliteracy and that this is one
(27:56):
area where women are laggingbehind men, is great to bring to
people's attention becausewomen, we never want to be left
behind so it is a really greatkick in the butt to go and have
a look at some of thesepodcasts.
Do maybe some LinkedIn learning,be curious about economics, find
out what your interest means,what you're super account paying
with your Have a look at yourhome loan.
(28:17):
There was a study where it waslike one in three Australian
people didn't know that theirhome loan was on an interest
only account.
Some really important things atleast know where your, what your
situation is holistically, Ithink is a really healthy
conversation to have and tocontinue to build up that
bandwidth.
We spoke about numbers beforearound Children year 12 students
(28:39):
and university students studyingeconomics, being sort of that
mid thirties to compared to men,which is the mid sixties, but
then also the financial review.
Australia's main financialpapers.
And women are at 31% subscribersof this newspaper compared to
64% of men.
The majority of the Raiders ofthis newspaper, manager or
(29:00):
professional levels.
They have a household income of120 K plus.
We can certainly start to paymore attention to our finances
and to start to share and bringthose financial discussions to
your friendship groups and,collectively we can all improve.
A bit of summer reading foreverybody, definitely a good one
to get into.
Claire, what can we do to ensurethat we are collectively,
lifting up women and how do westart this conversation?
Claire (29:22):
Yeah.
I mean, this is a really toughphone, right?
Like I, I wish I had, I thinkmany of us that are very
passionate about the financialvulnerability challenges of
women in this country, one ofthe largest growing cohorts of
homeless people in Australia iswomen in their fifties and
sixties.
I think you brought it up withme Miranda.
I'm so proud of you, the peoplethat got naughty naughty, your
superannuation fund is notperforming.
(29:44):
And then there's going on thoseletters.
There's been a bunch of, media.
The Australian Prudentialregulatory authority is
concerned that people aren'tacting enough on their
superannuation.
So I think that at the moment,there's a lot of awareness
coming into this space, which isgreat, then you need to move
into that desire to take action.
And I think that's where we'rehoping to do some really good
work, with elevate with grace isto encourage people to take
(30:07):
action in this space becausebeing aware of it is one thing
being brave enough to look atyour financial situation and
take some action into it and notknowing if you're on an interest
only loan, knowing that meansthat if you're not paying down
that principal, What does thatmean for you financially and
life?
Like we know from COVID life isalways going to throw us curly
big problems.
(30:28):
And are we in a position wherewe feel financially secure It's
just such an important space.
And I think lots moreconversation is happening about
it, but now.
How do we turn that into action?
How do we make it feel sexy towant to get excited about your
financial, personal financialsituation as a woman, right.
We really need to have long-termfinancial planning.
(30:50):
Need to think about what ourtrajectory of life is.
We need to own it in terms ofour own financial literacy.
Miranda (30:58):
On that note, do you have a favorite financial tool,
author quote, article orinspirational passage that could
help women to start building abetter relationship with money?
Hopefully we're going into alittle bit of summer holidays,
maybe a bit of summer reading
Claire (31:11):
Yes, I do.
In my personal opinion, and Ithink a lot of Australians would
be aware of this, I do rate thebarefoot investor by Scott Pape.
I think Scott Pape does a greatjob at.
Bringing it down to very basiclevels.
So in the barefoot investor,it's sort of set out as a very
clear structure, a program ofwork.
I like some of his philosophiesaround a partnership with
(31:33):
another person and you'resharing finances that you're
approaching life as a team, andyou're there to support
financially as a team.
And I think that he's got a lotof good ethos and concepts
behind the work that he does.
Fan girling big time over SallyKrawcheck who is the founder of
Ellevest, which is an Americanbased financial services
(31:53):
organization that's designed forwomen and wealth, because a lot
of financial products moredesigned for when you don't have
a lumpy career, so much moremale design.
And so she had a big goal toreally get women much more
financially independent.
So some are reading verydifferent type of book, but her
book own it is very good.
Following her on Instagram,LinkedIn or whatever.
(32:16):
And she does lots of like short,sharp articles about helping
women get better familiarizedwith their finances.
So I really like her stuff.
I like the thought leadership ofimage Edwards, who is behind the
Broke generation.
the brick generation is pitchedat millennials and gen Ys who
want to learn how to getfinancially fit.
I think some of the stuff thatEmma Edwards talks about on her
(32:40):
Insta posts are really great.
And she's the she's on the moneypodcast, which is divine.
Victoria, divine.
I think like some of the stuffthat she's doing in this space
is outstanding.
So all of these are aside fromSally Krawcheck, this is all
Australian grown, Australianbased talent.
(33:01):
So did probably a couple of.
Some suggestions from me, ofpeople that talk quite simply in
this space and talk about simplefinancial planning and simple
financial concepts.
And it's really good.
Some good takeaways.
And, yes, I have been followingSeroquel shake and Ellevest very
closely.
Her post today actually wasaround, Inflation and just not
(33:21):
being scared of it and actuallylearning what a little bit about
what it's about and how you canactually ride that wave and ride
it really well.
Miranda (33:27):
These are the kind of tips I think women could drive.
Claire (33:30):
If you subscribe to their newsletters and follow
them, and tiny little stepsevery day, like if you read one
post from, Sally Kaushik fromEllevest, or you read Scott
paper newsletter, or you followthe Insta posts, or you do one
20 minute podcasts from she's onthe money.
It's just about building up thatknowledge every day and those
are some great people to follow.
(33:50):
I think
Miranda (33:51):
absolutely.
We have come to the end of theepisode and wow.
What incredible, positiveinformation here.
So I'll definitely put the bookrecommendations and the podcast
recommendations in the shownotes.
Now it's only fair that you setthe next and last challenge for
this year.
what do we need our elevatecommunity to be doing, to set
(34:12):
themselves up for right 20 22.
Claire (34:15):
Yeah, I think at this point, the best action challenge
is just to get curious, throughthis interview style pod, we've
talked quite a lot about deepand also broad reaching topics
around finance.
And it is a very complex, we canproblem in terms of how all of
the.
Economic and political andcorporate and personal
(34:38):
situations all come to a head interms of supporting women in
their financial situation.
And so I think the thing is justabout getting curious, it's
about finding something in thisfield that makes you feel like
you're interested.
So whether that's investing,whether that's listening to a
podcast about investing orgetting a bit more curious about
(34:59):
your superannuation or, thinkingabout some of the financial
security issues that we'vetalked about that can happen to
women in this in Australia,which is quite heartbreaking in
a country like ours, maybethat's where you want to get
involved in some of the areasabout understanding a little
bit.
The action is to just getcurious, what elements within
our fuel, your financial pillarin 2022, we'll get you excited.
(35:21):
So what's just, the action istype in the search engine of
your favorite podcast app ortype in the search engine of
Instagram or whatever yoursocial media of choice is women
in finance, women and money.
And just find, check out acouple of the links in the show
notes.
Start to find a way to make itinteresting.
Build up, that Intel, thatlanguage, and the other thing is
(35:43):
then using that to startconversations at the dinner
table in your own home with yourfriends, in preparation for this
podcast, I literally, I did alittle chip test for myself the
other night, and I asked myeight year old daughter.
to explain to me whatsuperannuation was?
And she said it is where peoplesave money for their retirement.
Yeah I think we put pressure onit.
(36:05):
The fact that we think it ismore complicated than it is.
There's so much good resourceout there that makes it easy for
us to get ahead of theseconcepts.
And so I think just gettingcurious and doing some work on
that space.
Miranda (36:15):
Great action challenge.
Great advice.
I think that just startingsomewhere and just starting with
one little area is reallyimportant.
So making sure you're sooverwhelmed with all of the
ideas that you don't startanywhere.
So next episodes in a fortnightwe are going to be wrapping up
the podcast for the year with asummary of our 11 episodes so
far reflection on some keylearnings and some things that
(36:36):
maybe didn't fit into thepodcast tip.
So we're going to bring you somelittle surprise and delights in
this one.
We've put all of the links inthe episode notes, please visit
our Insta post for moreinspiration.
Emailus@elevatewithgraceatgmail.com
or check out our website,elevate with grace.com that I,
you, we would absolutely love tohear from you and hear your
thoughts.
Thank you.
Thank you.
What a fun conversation.
(36:57):
I am so grateful to you, Claire,for letting me interview you.
Thank you so much.
Claire (37:01):
It was really fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Well, I always enjoy talkingabout money and women and
finances and investing and textsand all that stuff.
So pleasure.
I'm glad you enjoyed it too.
And hopefully our listeners didas well.
Welcome to the elevate with grace podcast, for women
who are short on time and longto take steps to create success
on their own terms.
Our aim is to curate and sharethe best tips, insights, and
knowledge from all of thecontent out there.
Then take the brain strain outof it by giving you the, so
what, and some immediateactionable steps for you to slot
seamlessly into your life eachweek that will help propel you
(00:21):
from where you are to where youwant to.
In each episode, we take a lookinto one of the pillars of our
elevate with grace success onyour own terms model, where we
explore taking smart risks,cultivating our careers and
fueling our financial power.
These three elements worktogether even better when we
look at them within the broadercontext of the bigger picture
(00:42):
aspirations we have for what wewant our lives to be like and
also paying attention to notletting stuff that might be
holding us back, get in our way.
Miranda (00:49):
Hi, I'm Miranda and welcome to an exciting episode
on the elevate with gracepodcasts suite.
If you have been listening for alittle while now, and you will
have heard us talk about thesethree pillars, cultivating
career success, taking smartrisks and building your
financial muscle in this lastpillar, I am still very much a
wide-eyed student, but myco-host Claire has had an
incredible career in thefinancial sector thus far so we
(01:12):
are actually going to beinterviewing her and getting a
little bit more background intothe financial sector.
Before we jump into thisinterview though, like we didn't
last episode, I would just liketo start by sharing why we've
included a financial pillar inour success model and to see.
I think our minds and just alsoclarity around what we mean by
(01:33):
focusing on the financial piece.
We are not in any way financialadvisors, nor do we plan to be
giving any direct investmentadvice.
Instead, we want to bring someawareness to the power that
comes with a solid financialmindset, paired with some
probing questions to help youidentify where your financial
literacy might be at.
And some further curiositiesaround these financial matters,
(01:56):
simple things like, do youreally know where your money is?
How much ROI, why is your cashgiving you including super.
do You have enough squirreledaway that you don't need to
tolerate an untenable situation,be that a difficult manager or a
difficult working environment,and that you have not given away
your financial power to somebodyelse.
To explore our behavior aroundmoney conscious and
subconscious.
(02:17):
And to acknowledge that aswomen, we are far less
comfortable discussing financesand therefore not necessarily
supporting each other in thisspace like passing on investment
tips, taxable benefits, etcetera, Claire, I know your
suggestions have encouraged meto date to up my buffer funds
and it really does offer moreoptions for every decision tree
(02:37):
type moment.
Claire (02:38):
Yeah, I think you've explained that beautifully
Miranda.
I think you've obviously beenlistening to me talk about
financial stuff for many months,everything you said is spot on.
I think many women, don't have alinear trajectory as much as
men, when it comes to career inlife.
There's some challenges that weface as women in all sorts of
aspects of our life as we gothrough there.
(02:59):
And so I think one of thereasons why financial freedom
and fueling your financial powerso intricate to our model is
because it really is related tothe career progression and the
trajectory that we have.
We might take time out to lookup to kids we might take, and
that might be when their babiesthat might be later on and or
maybe we need to care for othersin our lives, and we need some
(03:21):
of that runway.
And so I think that's why whenwe're thinking about career and
taking smart risks and fuelingour financial power and what
that means within our bigaspirations for us.
There's a lot of thought that weneed to lean into and put into
what as we'll talk about alittle bit in this podcast, I
think much more than we'rereally doing right now as women.
And it's important that we talkabout some of that stuff as part
(03:43):
of our model.
Miranda (03:44):
Yes.
I have been loving yourinspiration and definitely
learning from you.
And I'm so excited that nextyear we'll actually explore this
area in more detail and maybeshare some of those those
insights and that inspirationwith our beautiful listeners.
It's so intertwined withcultivating your career and that
smart risk-taking as havingsomething really set up for
yourself is quite key.
(04:05):
For today, let's dive into thisinterview and learn more about
my inspirational and verytalented co-host.
Claire grew up as an expat kidliving in Hong Kong and
Singapore from eight to 17before heading over to Australia
for university, starting out thegate as a tax consultant,
earnest young, and then a shortstint in the financial
(04:25):
recruitment.
He ended up at to NIV where shebuilt a 12 year powerhouse
career working her way into headof roles before landing at HESTA
in a general manager capacity,somewhere in the 12 years,
Claire also took on her MBA.
There was no study break firstbalancing career and study, and
then study.
And her first daughter, she wentback to NAB where her role had
(04:47):
been made redundant, but hertenacity and resilience had her
leaning into her executivenetwork until she secured her
next role, which was also abroader head of department role
so much to unpack and a huge andmassive welcome to our first
interview guest, Clairecornfield.
Claire (05:04):
Thanks Miranda for that.
Very comprehensive and humblingintroduction at the same time.
I must say it's a bit of aninteresting feeling being here
as an interviewee instead of asa cohost, but as always, I'm
very excited for our podcastchats.
And so let's do this.
Miranda (05:22):
Fantastic.
So over the past few episodes,we've learnt a little bit about
you.
However, I am confident ourlisteners would love to
understand more about yourfinance financial background.
Have you always been interestedin finance?
What drove you to first studyingaccounting and taking on the
modern life?
That is the financial sector?
Claire (05:41):
Yeah, that's a really interesting question.
And I think if I could probablydive it, if you think, and look
back over your life and referback to when we were little kids
and we'll talk a little bitabout the importance of talking
about money in family and at thedinner table a little bit later
on, but I think.
If I was going to summarize itin a nutshell at high school, I
(06:02):
didn't really get into theaccounting and finance subject
specifically until university.
But when I was at high school,particularly in the more senior
years, I would have to say thatmy two favorite subjects were
economics and geography.
With both of those subjects, Iliked the breadth of what was
being taught.
So in the.
You would spend from the microlevel of what it means within
(06:23):
the smallest family or communitysetting, right through to board,
social and economic impacts forcountries and globally.
And so when I came back toAustralia, I applied to do a
bachelor of commerce atMelbourne uni.
To continue with that economicsaspect of what I'd loved at
school.
I recall actually having anaspiration to work for the
(06:44):
economist magazine at the timethat I applied, gosh, man, I
really am a geek, but then Istarted to pick up more specific
accounting and finance subjectsalong with the economics
subjects at university.
And truth be told, I stumbledinto continuing with the narrow
field of accounting and financeand not the economics path,
because at uni there was anopportunity offered to second
(07:08):
year commerce students to applyfor a summer holiday cadet ship
that was being offered by AYAand their tax consulting
practice.
And so I applied, I got acceptedand I suppose you could say the
rest was history.
When I think about yourquestion, I think the world of
finance has a connection withwhy I enjoyed the economics and
(07:28):
geography subjects at schoolbecause finance also has a micro
application in our homes in thehomes of everyday Australians.
And it's also very significantlyimportant.
At the societal and economicmacro level too.
And I think I liked the breadthof the discipline, and the
people that I worked with and awhole bunch of other stuff that
I liked the breadth of thediscipline and the significance
(07:48):
at the human level and as wellat the national and global
level.
And I think that's probablywhat's kept me interested for a
long time.
Miranda (07:54):
Firstly, congratulations on being one of
the 30% of women that actuallywas studying economics So
there's a study I've heard inspeeches.
I went digging and I found,Jackie Dwyer head of information
at RBI, there was a bank ofAustralia has been pushing this
fact that in 1995, we were aboutequal men and women, studying
economics in high school.
(08:16):
So year 12 economics, it wasabout 50% which followed through
to university.
In 2017 only 31% of women werestudying economics and 20, 64%
of men.
And that is both in year 12.
And of course also inuniversity, being that they
follow through.
So there's quite a big gapthere.
(08:37):
And I can definitely say that.
You know that early interestthat you had.
And I'm wanting to studyeconomics at university,
obviously being quite unique inthat way.
So congratulations,
Claire (08:47):
Thank you.
I think there probably wouldhave been some influences at
school.
So the school that I went to inSingapore, we spoke a lot with
the career coaches and stufflike that, about where we would
go, afterschool.
And I would probably have to saythat.
Dad would have been influentialin that too.
I was quite fine with theeconomics and geography and them
pushing me towards the economicsand perhaps that will maybe help
(09:09):
make you more money in thelongterm.
And I was like, okay.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Miranda (09:14):
It's a hope that Jackie gets her way because Jackie
Dwight has been pushing to bringin economics as a core.
And they didn't say anythingabout Singapore, but over 20
states in America now have thisas a mandatory high school
education.
And I think financial literacyis really so important to how we
go about our daily lives.
So not having.
He's a pretty big deficit.
Claire (09:34):
Yeah.
And not to distract us too muchon a tangent.
But the other part of it is too.
Highly important.
I think there's a whole bunch ofreports that we can go into
about young people in Australiafeeling like there's a real
general sense that no one isgiving them enough financial
literacy and education.
So parents that are in the spacewho are talking to them about
(09:54):
what superannuation, they'reputting their money into, how to
fill out a tax return, how to doa budget.
And a lot of it is reliant onthe conversations that you're
having and the financialliteracy that exists in your
home because we're not costingit at school enough.
And yeah, I think it's a bigdeal.
I think there's a lot of peopleplaying in that space to get
more of that education.
(10:14):
And I think young people intheir twenties would say
themselves that they wish wewere doing more of that stuff in
the school system.
Yeah,
Miranda (10:21):
definitely.
And I think there's things youdo learn in that mask that could
even be switched out for a bitof economics
Claire (10:25):
call me if we're going to talk about anything today,
from a mass perspective, I wantto talk about compound interest
because that's the key thing inall of this and risk, but I
think one of the other thingstoo, is if you're going into a
leadership career in acorporate, a lot of the skills
that they focus on is,relationship building skills,
all of the soft skills that are.
(10:47):
Natural for women and probablynot for men.
And so they're more aligned towhat men need to lead and what
the missing piece.
I think it's called the missing33% and what the missing piece
is, what we're not telling womenis that.
You need to talk about outcomesif you're in a commercial
organization in order to standout, and if you are interested
(11:07):
in progressing your career, youneed to be talking about
strategy, commercial outcomes.
What's the financial benefits ofdoing stuff for the
organization?
No one gets the memo on thatoften from a female perspective
Miranda (11:18):
definitely something we could talk about for a long
time, but let's go back.
So from Ernest young, whatmotivated the decision to join
NAB?
And what were your ambitionswhen you started?
Did you dream of being the CEOof NAB?
Claire (11:30):
I did not dream of being the CEO of NAB, I wouldn't say
that I don't have ambitions tobe CEO either for me.
I guess it's mostly aboutfinding my place in the world
where I feel like I can make amaterial positive impact on my
colleagues, customers and theteams that I work with and in my
early twenties, I really enjoyedthe challenge of the work I was
(11:51):
doing and the amazingly switchedon people I got to work with.
But I think I wasn't quite sureat such a young age that a
career in charter the county.
Was for me, I am heavily slantedto the extrovert end of the
spectrum.
Back when I started my career, Ifelt like I was standing out
like a beacon of extrovertedthem in the world of channel
(12:12):
accounting and I just wasn'tcomfortable enough in my
twenties to own that standingout from the crowd.
So obviously extrovert in anobviously introverted culture.
So I went and did recruitmentfor a bit, and I really enjoyed
that for about 18 months, then Idecided I want to do some travel
overseas and I'd only half donemy chartered accounting
qualification before I left E Y.
(12:34):
So I jumped back into acorporate tax role at Heinz.
To finish my Charteredaccounting qualification.
So that from there I did a yeartraveling around the world.
When I got back to Australia Ilanded a job in the tax team at
NAB if I look back on it, Ithink what I was keen to do was
to work in one of the largestRaelian, based organizations.
(12:58):
So the big four banks were anobvious example who leave with a
commerce degree, and charteredaccounting qualification.
I wanted to do that because Ifelt that it would be likely at
a young age that I'd be able tofigure out some things.
What kind of environment suitedme, what type of work that I
like to do.
So that was probably the driverfor looking at big organizations
(13:20):
at the time.
It paid off in terms of gettingan opportunity to work in
different parts of a largerorganization and building out a
career in that way
Miranda (13:29):
so from chartered accounting to operations and
managing tech teams overseas,Wow.
The gamut that you've been ableto create.
Does talk to that bigorganization and the ability to
shift and move.
So really cool.
There, can you talk through someof the opportunities and
challenges of working in thefinancial sector?
Claire (13:46):
Yeah.
So I think one of the keyopportunities is exactly that
what we've just talked about andis, and I think it goes all the
way back to probably my parentsand my teachers at school
gearing me down that economicspath and the accounting path.,
I've worked in tax.
then I moved to financialreporting and then I've done
operations where you're lookingafter the back office operations
(14:06):
and processing of variousinformation to the banks.
I've worked with offshore teamsin India.
State-based teams on largescale.
And so the breadth of the rolesI was able to do within NAB was
fabulous.
You can learn a lot aboutyourself as you go along.
I like having loyalty to anorganization of that.
But also you didn't run out ofbandwidth as you move through.
(14:27):
So that's definitely oneopportunity.
Another opportunity is that youwork with a wide and diverse
array of people.
A lot of what I've learned isbecause of the huge variety of
people, I've had the humbleprivilege of working with in the
financial services sector, truthbe told.
I've also learned a lot fromoccasionally bad interactions
(14:48):
too.
Let's put that on the table.
It's not always from the goodinteractions is certainly made
some Rocky periods in there.
Miranda (14:54):
We all do though.
I actually think any badexperience.
You learn so much more from thatmaybe because it we react more
to pain or something yeah what Idon't want to do.
Yeah.
Talk to you maybe longer tolearn from the good managers.
Yeah.
Claire (15:07):
How you don't want to be, how that, how you don't want
to make other people feel andall that sort of stuff.
A great example from that, andwe weren't talking about it
today, but we have talked aboutit previously and it is so
integrated with the importanceof having financial independence
and freedom.
You know what COVID teaches youis.
Over time.
Like we don't have certaintyover time.
And so bad experiences can giveyou a lot more clarity about
(15:31):
what you're doing don't want todo.
So mostly it was greatexperiences.
I went now, but the odd, bad onealso helped from a learning
perspective.
I need to call out that a careerin finance can usually often pay
well as well.
So being financially independentand financially empowered.
To make choices in my life isvery important to me.
Freedom is one of my corevalues, freedom for myself and
(15:57):
others and having money, andworking in a career path that
pays well was part of it.
I'd have to say.
Basic level from a challengesperspective the corporate
politics in large financialservices organizations.
Again Corporate politics iseverywhere, right?
Not just in financial servicesorganizations, but one of the
(16:18):
things that I found challengingwas the corporate politics.
I'm not very good at being awareof it and navigating within it.
I try to do that and.
Often, I just want to be myselfand just get on.
The organizational change andrestructures is constant and
ongoing in large financialservices organizations.
(16:39):
Most of the time I've oftenleveraged it and benefited from
it.
One thing I do think aboutthough, is that for the majority
of my career, up until about thelast three years or so.
I wasn't the majority primarycaregiver for my children who
are now eight and 10 my partnerwas working part time for a lot
of the time I had my mom and mydad also contributing to that
(17:03):
sharing of the, of the childcareduties along with myself.
And if I think about the lastcouple of years, and it's had to
become more visible in my worksituation, that I am a mum who
has had support her kids.
First, and I do believe to acertain degree that my career
progression has been impacted bythat, by have people having that
(17:25):
perception, to what extent, timewill tell, I suppose, and I
don't regret any of that, but Ido think that my success at NAB
over those years, I just feellike it's really important to
call it out that, I did havethat a lot more distributed
childcare support and probablyfor it.
Cause that's just happened inthe last couple of years.
(17:45):
And I do think that can, I'mjust more aware of that I
suppose, for women.
Miranda (17:48):
I think most women in leadership that understand that
you can do both and you can doboth really well and that you
don't need to do really longwork days to actually succeed.
You can be far more efficientthat you offer a lot more soft
skills.
Maybe the workplace is a greatconversation that we need to
have, but we need to see womenin leadership to make sure that
the knee-jerk reaction out ofthis COVID pandemic time when
(18:12):
people have seen a lot more mumscome to front is that they
support and they celebrate thosewomen, not, pass them over the
career progression because ofthat of the covid reveal.
Claire (18:22):
Yeah.
And I think there's a lot ofhope in the COVID experience for
many organizations.
Demonstrate that we don't haveto all be in bricks and mortar
buildings from nine to five 30.
There's a lot more women likeEmma Isaacs that we're talking
about your lead leave loudly.
And there's a lot moreconversation about that, which
I'm hopeful for.
And I think the reality is toothat the millennials, are much
(18:43):
more strong about not working inthose sort of corporate cultures
that kind of promote and rewardthe greedy work as it's sort of
known.
I think a lot going to change inthe workforce over the next few
years, but I do think if Ireflect on the last two to three
years versus the last 12 years,unfortunately, it's still done.
Have some impact to how you'reviewed at work?
(19:05):
It's an important thing toconsider.
Miranda (19:07):
And if we all thought about it, want work to be 18 now
is about dying.
Every day.
We need to be allowed to have alife and have a career and
there's countries that can do itreally, really well.
I mean, France not allowed towork after to 7:00 PM.
It's illegal to send an emaillike you can't have.
Claire (19:24):
Now I'm bringing my macro lens to this.
I think it is that combinationof.
Individuals.
Executive women that I've workedwith one of the things that some
of the inspiring ones will takeEmma Isaac's view and told me to
leave loudly.
And because you need to beshowing younger women that you
can have, and then that you canhave the career and talk about
(19:45):
the fact that men do work parttime and all that sort of stuff.
So be vocal about it from anindividual perspective, I think
is important, but there is agovernment.
Responsibility to get involvedin that space and the corporates
responsibility.
So it's kind of that combinedthing.
Miranda (19:58):
You mentioned just then about some wonderful women that
have supported you.
I wonder if there's any othergreat teachings or messages that
you would be open to sharing forsome of those wonderful women in
the financial sector thatperhaps helped your progression
through your career thus far?
Claire (20:11):
Yes, you're right.
I've worked for some wonderfulmen and women, we need to be
shouting more loudly about otherwomen and how amazing they are.
A lot of that stuff needs tocome about.
So you're right.
I have worked with some amazingfemale leadership in financial
services.
It may not always land well incertain organizations or
situations, but continuing tothink about myself as a role
model for younger women, mydaughters and all that sort of
(20:32):
stuff, and conduct myself in myleadership is definitely,
something that I've been taughtpreviously.
To flex my leadership andprofessional style for different
contextual situations.
So if you're speaking to aboard, you need to speak
differently to the board than ifyou're speaking to someone on a
one-on-one and that person whomay be motivated by different
things.
Maybe somehow you might changeyour style slightly.
(20:54):
Now that's not to mean that Youknow authentic yourself.
And so that's the challenge.
So you do need to flex yourstyle in leadership context for
the audience that you need towork with.
then you just need to find theauthentic way to still be
yourself, but be aware that yourprofessional brand does have an
element of how you're presentingin different contexts.
Stop worrying about so muchabout being liked was, I really
(21:17):
found that hard to do.
And so having senior femalementors kind of press that
point, you're not going to beliked by everyone.
Not everyone's going to likeyour leadership decisions and
you need to make sure that thatdoesn't sway those leadership
decisions that you're making orthe choices that you're making.
I touched on before about thecommercial impacts to the role
(21:38):
you're doing, particularly inlarge corporate organizations
with shareholders, probably thisapplies in all contexts about
being clear on what's thecurrent situation or the current
problem that you're looking at,what's the future state of that
problem.
And where are the big thingswhere you can turn the dial and
then focusing your energy onthem, but doing that sort of
(21:58):
what's the future state looklike in this situation?
What's the current state to helpyou map out those processes and
make material differences thatget noticed to the organization
above.
That's definitely something I'velearned.
And really about backing myselfand being myself.
So if I can't be myself and feellike there's something not quite
right, and I'm not able to be myauthentic self in a particular
(22:20):
work environment, then I need tolisten to my gut more.
You know, a little bit of thisstuff.
We've talked about strategicwinning in the past and a couple
of episodes.
Like you don't have to persevereevery time.
Yes.
Persevere is important.
Yes.
It's important.
Yes.
Sticking in the roles important.
But if you got, and your heartis telling you that this is not
quite the right, I'm notthriving in this situation, then
(22:43):
I'm trying to get better.
Yeah.
So taking that advice that I'vehad over the years and moving on
quicker than I probably havedone in the past.
So yeah, this, some of thethings that I've learned from
some of the amazing women thatI've worked fantastic advice.
We've definitely seen thatcoming through as some really
important messaging.
All of those messages are thingsthat we can use in any sector,
not set to the financial sector,that these are very much
(23:05):
transferred with skills acrossthe board Observations.
Have you made where other womenmight respond differently to you
when you share that you work in
Miranda (23:11):
finance?
Claire (23:12):
Maybe aren't in your sector, do you sort of notice
anyone being a little bit like,oh, okay.
And sort of backing away oranything like that?
I'm not sure I've made a directlink that they're backing away
from me because I say I work infinance or something else.
There's probably other elementsthere, but I haven't noticed a
particular reaction to thefinance.
Miranda (23:32):
You work in finance.
Great tonight.
I think when I make somebodymany sector, but definitely the
financial sector, I'm alwaysvery curious about the areas
they work in, what it involves.
So I think that curiosity,whenever we make people is
always lovely.
We spoke about a couple ofepisodes ago that maybe a better
question to ask people when youfirst meet them.
What are you passionate aboutright now?
What are you still being projectrather than necessarily?
(23:54):
Oh, what's your job.
Oh, your accountant.
Okay, cool.
I've already stereotyped you.
I've put you in a.
I mean for me personally, Idefinitely feel like the
financial ward has its owncodes.
And perhaps that there is like afear that if we ask more
questions, we're going to lookkind of silly if we don't
understand that Intel.
And, there's probably a littlebit of financial literacy gaps
there.
(24:14):
I wonder also if there's anembarrassment factor, when they
sort of admit to you because youwork in the financial sector.
Oh, I haven't done my taxes.
I have no idea what my superreally is.
Has some kind of controls thefinances.
Have you seen or felt any ofthat awkwardness in
conversations with women?
Claire (24:31):
Yeah, I think this is a really excellent question and
this is really close to myheart.
I haven't really noticed anawkwardness in having financial
conversations because womennever want to have financial
conversations.
I don't know whether it'sawkward to talk to someone that
financial literacy is reasonablyhigh, but I actually get a sense
of feeling, I think there's alot of stats to support this is
(24:52):
that women just don't talk aboutthis anywhere near enough and
anywhere near as much as theyshould be, which is why it's so
important to me that it's partof our elevate with grace
success model, because I thinkit's super important.
What's your experience?
do you, do you ever talk aboutmoney with anyone else?
Not really.
I mean, it's interesting.
There was a couple of girls inmy work place who have
investment and so we definitelyhave that conversation and
(25:14):
support each other with insightsand things that we found.
Miranda (25:17):
I think actually it would feel quite uncomfortable
talking about other peoplesometimes you have some sort of
preface it, will you apologizefor it?
I don't know.
And I it's just talking aboutfinance, until we are actually
much more comfortable to talkabout these things.
I definitely know my husbanddoes have these conversations
with his family and it's been aconsistent conversation.
Claire (25:35):
I think the important thing for me the family
conversation, but then thefamily conversation is talking
to sons and daughters.
Research out there that say thatwomen defer to their husbands or
partners to look after thefinance arrangements in their
household.
And then that does become aproblem when divorce happens or
when the male partner of therelationship dies or whoever's
looking after the finances.
(25:56):
And so I think there's so muchgreat content out there.
There's great books.
It's about spending a bit oftime to learn those basic
concepts and.
They're not that complicated.
It's just about choosing tolearn it.
And then when more of us arelearning it and talking about
it, but being okay, like, Iguess we have to be, we have to
be less ashamed about the factthat we don't know anything
(26:17):
about it and be more open.
Hey I don't know enough aboutfinances and I want to learn
more and get curious about it,like an asking.
And I know that women don't talkabout what they get paid.
Like men talk about it a lotmore.
There's adequate to say that aswell.
And I often talk about how muchI get paid and it's like, I
haven't said anything.
I don't talk about it with everyrandom person, but I do indicate
(26:39):
to girlfriends like, oh, youknow, I got offered this role
and it paid this much, or I'mgetting this much as a daily
rate per hour.
It just drops on the floor, butI'm still committed because I
think it's like, People don'thave to share what they get paid
back, but I think it's helpfulto know like, what pay is out
there.
I mean, I've in the pastspecifically asked trusted men
(27:01):
that I've worked with who wereat the same level what they get
paid to make sure that I'mgetting paid the same.
And it's hard.
It's hard to be that vulnerable.
And it's hard to sound silly,but tell us if it's worth it.
Miranda (27:11):
Yeah.
Conscious and subconsciouslywomen have certainly been geared
towards softer skills and maybenot as much in that financial
literacy space, I went and doveinto some research and did
actually find, HILDA study,which is house out income, labor
division in Australia.
It's performed by the MelbourneInstitute, at the uni of
Melbourne.
And this Hilda survey found thatbasic financial literacy that
(27:35):
there is an 11% gap between menand women.
So 3.75 to 4.17.
This gets high when we go intomore advanced financial
literacy.
So there's a lot of scary thingsin this report around poverty
and such.
And look, I think it's somethingwe can dig into more next year.
I think this idea of financialliteracy and that this is one
(27:56):
area where women are laggingbehind men, is great to bring to
people's attention becausewomen, we never want to be left
behind so it is a really greatkick in the butt to go and have
a look at some of thesepodcasts.
Do maybe some LinkedIn learning,be curious about economics, find
out what your interest means,what you're super account paying
with your Have a look at yourhome loan.
(28:17):
There was a study where it waslike one in three Australian
people didn't know that theirhome loan was on an interest
only account.
Some really important things atleast know where your, what your
situation is holistically, Ithink is a really healthy
conversation to have and tocontinue to build up that
bandwidth.
We spoke about numbers beforearound Children year 12 students
(28:39):
and university students studyingeconomics, being sort of that
mid thirties to compared to men,which is the mid sixties, but
then also the financial review.
Australia's main financialpapers.
And women are at 31% subscribersof this newspaper compared to
64% of men.
The majority of the Raiders ofthis newspaper, manager or
(29:00):
professional levels.
They have a household income of120 K plus.
We can certainly start to paymore attention to our finances
and to start to share and bringthose financial discussions to
your friendship groups and,collectively we can all improve.
A bit of summer reading foreverybody, definitely a good one
to get into.
Claire, what can we do to ensurethat we are collectively,
lifting up women and how do westart this conversation?
Claire (29:22):
Yeah.
I mean, this is a really toughphone, right?
Like I, I wish I had, I thinkmany of us that are very
passionate about the financialvulnerability challenges of
women in this country, one ofthe largest growing cohorts of
homeless people in Australia iswomen in their fifties and
sixties.
I think you brought it up withme Miranda.
I'm so proud of you, the peoplethat got naughty naughty, your
superannuation fund is notperforming.
(29:44):
And then there's going on thoseletters.
There's been a bunch of, media.
The Australian Prudentialregulatory authority is
concerned that people aren'tacting enough on their
superannuation.
So I think that at the moment,there's a lot of awareness
coming into this space, which isgreat, then you need to move
into that desire to take action.
And I think that's where we'rehoping to do some really good
work, with elevate with grace isto encourage people to take
(30:07):
action in this space becausebeing aware of it is one thing
being brave enough to look atyour financial situation and
take some action into it and notknowing if you're on an interest
only loan, knowing that meansthat if you're not paying down
that principal, What does thatmean for you financially and
life?
Like we know from COVID life isalways going to throw us curly
big problems.
(30:28):
And are we in a position wherewe feel financially secure It's
just such an important space.
And I think lots moreconversation is happening about
it, but now.
How do we turn that into action?
How do we make it feel sexy towant to get excited about your
financial, personal financialsituation as a woman, right.
We really need to have long-termfinancial planning.
(30:50):
Need to think about what ourtrajectory of life is.
We need to own it in terms ofour own financial literacy.
Miranda (30:58):
On that note, do you have a favorite financial tool,
author quote, article orinspirational passage that could
help women to start building abetter relationship with money?
Hopefully we're going into alittle bit of summer holidays,
maybe a bit of summer reading
Claire (31:11):
Yes, I do.
In my personal opinion, and Ithink a lot of Australians would
be aware of this, I do rate thebarefoot investor by Scott Pape.
I think Scott Pape does a greatjob at.
Bringing it down to very basiclevels.
So in the barefoot investor,it's sort of set out as a very
clear structure, a program ofwork.
I like some of his philosophiesaround a partnership with
(31:33):
another person and you'resharing finances that you're
approaching life as a team, andyou're there to support
financially as a team.
And I think that he's got a lotof good ethos and concepts
behind the work that he does.
Fan girling big time over SallyKrawcheck who is the founder of
Ellevest, which is an Americanbased financial services
(31:53):
organization that's designed forwomen and wealth, because a lot
of financial products moredesigned for when you don't have
a lumpy career, so much moremale design.
And so she had a big goal toreally get women much more
financially independent.
So some are reading verydifferent type of book, but her
book own it is very good.
Following her on Instagram,LinkedIn or whatever.
(32:16):
And she does lots of like short,sharp articles about helping
women get better familiarizedwith their finances.
So I really like her stuff.
I like the thought leadership ofimage Edwards, who is behind the
Broke generation.
the brick generation is pitchedat millennials and gen Ys who
want to learn how to getfinancially fit.
I think some of the stuff thatEmma Edwards talks about on her
(32:40):
Insta posts are really great.
And she's the she's on the moneypodcast, which is divine.
Victoria, divine.
I think like some of the stuffthat she's doing in this space
is outstanding.
So all of these are aside fromSally Krawcheck, this is all
Australian grown, Australianbased talent.
(33:01):
So did probably a couple of.
Some suggestions from me, ofpeople that talk quite simply in
this space and talk about simplefinancial planning and simple
financial concepts.
And it's really good.
Some good takeaways.
And, yes, I have been followingSeroquel shake and Ellevest very
closely.
Her post today actually wasaround, Inflation and just not
(33:21):
being scared of it and actuallylearning what a little bit about
what it's about and how you canactually ride that wave and ride
it really well.
Miranda (33:27):
These are the kind of tips I think women could drive.
Claire (33:30):
If you subscribe to their newsletters and follow
them, and tiny little stepsevery day, like if you read one
post from, Sally Kaushik fromEllevest, or you read Scott
paper newsletter, or you followthe Insta posts, or you do one
20 minute podcasts from she's onthe money.
It's just about building up thatknowledge every day and those
are some great people to follow.
(33:50):
I think
Miranda (33:51):
absolutely.
We have come to the end of theepisode and wow.
What incredible, positiveinformation here.
So I'll definitely put the bookrecommendations and the podcast
recommendations in the shownotes.
Now it's only fair that you setthe next and last challenge for
this year.
what do we need our elevatecommunity to be doing, to set
(34:12):
themselves up for right 20 22.
Claire (34:15):
Yeah, I think at this point, the best action challenge
is just to get curious, throughthis interview style pod, we've
talked quite a lot about deepand also broad reaching topics
around finance.
And it is a very complex, we canproblem in terms of how all of
the.
Economic and political andcorporate and personal
(34:38):
situations all come to a head interms of supporting women in
their financial situation.
And so I think the thing is justabout getting curious, it's
about finding something in thisfield that makes you feel like
you're interested.
So whether that's investing,whether that's listening to a
podcast about investing orgetting a bit more curious about
(34:59):
your superannuation or, thinkingabout some of the financial
security issues that we'vetalked about that can happen to
women in this in Australia,which is quite heartbreaking in
a country like ours, maybethat's where you want to get
involved in some of the areasabout understanding a little
bit.
The action is to just getcurious, what elements within
our fuel, your financial pillarin 2022, we'll get you excited.
(35:21):
So what's just, the action istype in the search engine of
your favorite podcast app ortype in the search engine of
Instagram or whatever yoursocial media of choice is women
in finance, women and money.
And just find, check out acouple of the links in the show
notes.
Start to find a way to make itinteresting.
Build up, that Intel, thatlanguage, and the other thing is
(35:43):
then using that to startconversations at the dinner
table in your own home with yourfriends, in preparation for this
podcast, I literally, I did alittle chip test for myself the
other night, and I asked myeight year old daughter.
to explain to me whatsuperannuation was?
And she said it is where peoplesave money for their retirement.
Yeah I think we put pressure onit.
(36:05):
The fact that we think it ismore complicated than it is.
There's so much good resourceout there that makes it easy for
us to get ahead of theseconcepts.
And so I think just gettingcurious and doing some work on
that space.
Miranda (36:15):
Great action challenge.
Great advice.
I think that just startingsomewhere and just starting with
one little area is reallyimportant.
So making sure you're sooverwhelmed with all of the
ideas that you don't startanywhere.
So next episodes in a fortnightwe are going to be wrapping up
the podcast for the year with asummary of our 11 episodes so
far reflection on some keylearnings and some things that
(36:36):
maybe didn't fit into thepodcast tip.
So we're going to bring you somelittle surprise and delights in
this one.
We've put all of the links inthe episode notes, please visit
our Insta post for moreinspiration.
Emailus@elevatewithgraceatgmail.com
or check out our website,elevate with grace.com that I,
you, we would absolutely love tohear from you and hear your
thoughts.
Thank you.
Thank you.
What a fun conversation.
(36:57):
I am so grateful to you, Claire,for letting me interview you.
Thank you so much.
Claire (37:01):
It was really fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Well, I always enjoy talkingabout money and women and
finances and investing and textsand all that stuff.
So pleasure.
I'm glad you enjoyed it too.
And hopefully our listeners didas well.
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