February 18, 2025 • 46 mins
Are you truly connected—to yourself, to others, and to something greater?
This week, I’m joined by Dr. Adam Dorsay, a psychologist, executive coach, and author of Super Psyched: The Four Types of Connection, to explore what it really means to form deep, meaningful connections in our fast-paced world.
Dr. Dorsay breaks down the four key areas of connection—self, others, the world, and something greater—and how cultivating these connections enhances our happiness, mental health, and overall well-being.
From navigating friendships as an adult to understanding when to disconnect, this episode is packed with actionable insights, personal anecdotes, and wisdom to help you strengthen your relationships and lead a more fulfilling life.
🔹 Key Topics Covered:
✅ The 4 types of connection and why they matter
✅ How to make and maintain quality friendships as an adult
✅ The importance of healthy disconnection (goodbye, toxic relationships!)
✅ The science behind awe, joy, and emotional resilience
✅ How social media and the 24-hour news cycle hijack our emotions
✅ Practical ways to build deeper relationships in daily life
✅ Why "JOMO" (Joy of Missing Out) can be a game-changer
Connect with Adam Dorsay:
DrAdamDorsay.com
https://www.instagram.com/superpsychedpodcast
https://www.facebook.com/dradamdorsay
https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-dorsay
Super Psyched is available for sale on Amazon and Barnes & Noble
Overcome the daily grind with transformative techniques from Justin's book, 'Engineered to Love.'
These practices aren't just about finding peace—they're about reconnecting with yourself and the world around you in meaningful ways.
Access your free materials today at engineeredtolove.com/sample and start living a life filled with joy, ease, and love.
Watch the full video episode at Justin Wenck, Ph.D. YouTube Channel!
Check out my best-selling book "Engineered to Love: Going Beyond Success to Fulfillment" also available on Audiobook on all streaming platforms! Go to https://www.engineeredtolove.com/ to learn more!
Got a question or comment about the show? E-mail me at podcast@justinwenck.com.
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Disclaimer: No copyright infringement intended, music and pics belong to the rightful owners.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When we listen to music, if it'sjust an intellectual experience,
(00:03):
I would say it the music has, atleast in my case, it would not
have reached me fully. I wantedto hit my emotions as well. I
mean, I can look at thetechnician and say, Wow,
technically, what a greatmusician, but I really want the
emotional experience of like,wow, that music really does
something to mean the titlesuper psyched does not mean
super happy all the time. Itmeans super connected to our
(00:25):
psyches. When we are feelinghappy, we own the happiness and
the joy when we're feeling griefstricken, and we are able to
leverage that as well.
Are you ready to live a lifewith enough time, money and
energy have relationships andconnections that delight you.
Are you ready for theextraordinary life you know
(00:47):
you've been missing? If so, thenthis is the place for you. I'm a
best selling author, coach,consultant and speaker who's
worked in technology for overtwo decades. I'm a leader at
transforming people andorganizations, from operating in
fear, obligation and guilt torunning off joy, ease and love.
It's time for engineeringemotions and energy with me.
(01:10):
Justin Wenck PhDtoday, we are talking about
connecting, and I'm superpsyched to have Dr Adam Dorsey,
the author of super psyched, thefour types of connection. He is
an executive coach in SiliconValley. He's a licensed
psychologist. He works withcrazy high achieving adults at
(01:34):
some of the highest and, youknow, our companies and, yeah.
And he's got an award winningpodcast, also called super
psyched. And he's delivered acouple of really highly regarded
TED talks, one on men and theiremotions. I didn't I thought
there was only two numbness andanger that I'm I'm curious
about, and then also friendshipand adulthood. So Adam's book,
(01:56):
you can find it basicallyanywhere you can find a book, so
Amazon, all the places. So,Adam, welcome to the show. So
good. Justin, connect with you.
So happy to be with you. Man,yeah, like you're I, I really
enjoyed reading your bookbecause connection has been
something that, like, it's, it'salways been a theme in my life,
(02:18):
and it's just even and it'slike, almost the right book and
like, the right interview at thethe right time. And what I loved
about the book was, you know,your personal stories for
yourself. I always likesomebody's personal stories
about themselves. You have somany great anecdotes, but it was
just, it was like, I'm like, Ifeel so similar and also so
different from you. I thinkthat's just part of the human
(02:40):
experience. Is like, we're sosimilar with our differences.
And one of those was, you weretalking, I think about you were
really young, and at some pointyou went to try to, like, play
with like, 12 different kids,and they all shot you down, yes,
and I'm just like, I don't, Ithink I was just like, I
wouldn't even go up to one kid,because it's like, I could just
(03:01):
feel that. I'm like, this is notgoing to go well, or at least
that's my earliest memory. Andit's like that you you went
through the 12 to get the shot,and I'm like, we are so
different, but yet we both werelonging for that, that
connection, that like, I wantsomeone to play with and like.
And I just thought that was abeautiful, beautiful anecdote as
part of the book. Of like, youknow, this is not a new thing.
(03:24):
Like, what is it in your workand what you found that has
drawn you to, you know, writinga book about connection, and
being this one of the focalpoints and, and, you know, your
your many years in this, in thisarea. Well, Justin, I'm so glad
you asked. I knew that I wouldwrite a book when it bit me so
hard. To borrow from Irv yall atStanford. He said every book he
(03:44):
ever wrote bit him in the ass,and this topic bit me in the
ass, in the sense that it tookhold of me. I had been
practicing as a psychotherapistfor over 20,000 hours, and it
just this word kept coming upthis word connection in my
podcast with all these thoughtleaders, the word connection
(04:06):
just kept showing up. And Irealized that there hadn't
really been a book dedicated tothis topic that seems to be the
precursor of everything we want.
It's certainly present ineverything we don't want, I
should say absent in everythingwe don't want. If you look
through the DSM, which is whatmental health practitioners use
to diagnose people, yeah, with,for example, depression, it a
(04:29):
big part of depression is adisconnection from the present,
because oftentimes we'rethinking about the past when
we're anxious, we're oftendisconnected from the present,
thinking about the future andworried about that. Oftentimes,
with trauma, a big hallmark ofit can be dissociation, which is
a disconnection, as well as inpsychosis, of course, which is
severe mental illness, it'scharacterized with a break from
(04:52):
reality itself. So there's adisconnection there too. So at
the heart of almost everythingwe don't want is.
Connection, and it seemslogical, and it's been,
certainly, my experience as aclinician, that at the heart of
everything we do want isconnection. Doesn't mean we want
to be connected all the time.
Sometimes we want a pleasantAssociation. Sometimes we want
to watch Netflix and justdissociate and just let go. For
(05:13):
sure, if I'm giving blood andthey're going to be jamming a
needle up my arm, which I hate.
I would prefer to not be there,so to speak. So I dissociate
during those moments. So I'm notsaying we want to be connected
all the time, but yeah,moderation, right? And it's,
it's all, it's in healthy doses.
And I'm with you with theneedles. I'm like, the other
(05:33):
way, like, why chance it? Why?
You know, why do I don't want tolook at that? And, yeah, so
totally. But to your point,Justin there are similarities
and differences, and that's whyI say that each person has a
different formula to find theirversions of connecting. And I
came up with a definition ofconnection because in the
(05:53):
Webster's Dictionary, it's arather lackluster definition.
It's like two train carsconnecting with each other. And
that's clearly not what peopleare talking about when they say,
I really long for connection.
Yeah, not what they're longingYeah. And this is something I
definitely want to get into alittle bit. Is this a concept of
maybe healthy disconnection, ordisconnecting so that you can
(06:16):
have the connections that thatyou really want to long for?
Because I think you kind ofmentioned a little bit in your
book, a little bit little bit inyour book, a little bit about
this idea of, like, enmeshment,and there's probably some other
stuff. And I know for myself,I've been going through like, a
period of disconnecting fromstuff I was uncon that I
unconsciously connected to thatwas not for me. And then now
it's sort of like getting intothis period of like, okay, now
(06:36):
I'm going to, now I'm what, whatdo I really want to connect to
like from choice and as an adultand things like that. And
yes, I'd love to get a littlebit into that of like that,
that like that, it's, yeah, it'snot just any connection, right?
It's not just like, okay, aslong as I'm hooked up to
something, I'm good, like, Ithink we we feel it, but I
(07:00):
don't, yeah, I think that's beenmissing in our culture, that
like it's we want more thanthat. You got it. This book is
all about intention, using whatwe know we like from history and
also from experimentation, forwhat leaves us feeling
connected. Now the definitionfor connection that we came up
with for this book, and I say webecause I consulted about 10
(07:21):
other licensed mental healthprofessionals to create a
working definition forconnection. But it's what brings
us alive. It's life force, andyou and I both know it when we
feel it. I heard a song in amovie the other day. It didn't
take multiple playings of thesong to know that this is a song
that brings me alive. You've hadthat happen to you. It might be
(07:41):
your kind of every batter in theMLB when they're playing at
home, they have a walk up songto get them energized. That is
something they connect with. Andeverybody has a different walk
up song. So we all havedifferent formulas for what
connects us. There are certainsimilarities you and I share.
There's certain things that youand I would talk about and say,
oh my god, yeah, that brings meso much connection. And I looked
(08:02):
at it through the lens of fourways that we connect, because
there are really only four weconnect with ourselves, and
that's the primary connection.
It's not selfish to need toconnect with ourselves first to
know who we are, what it is thatwe want, and then it ripples
outwards. And if you can imaginealmost like rippling out.
Circles are like a target. Thesecond circle is connecting to
others that could includeconnecting your significant
(08:25):
other or your friends, yourfamily, your clients, co
workers, whatever co workers,any. And I included pets,
because for many of us, petpeople, they are significant
others in our lives. And thenthe third is how we connect to
the world that could includework, that could include travel,
that could include art or natureor ancestry, and in the fourth
(08:45):
circle, is how we connect tosomething greater. For some
people, for religious people, itcould mean connecting to God.
But for the mostunreligious, perhaps even
profoundly atheist people. Ifthey go to, let's say, Joshua
Tree, or they go to, who knows,Yellowstone or Grand Canyon,
(09:07):
they say, wow. Wow isan indicator that they're
experiencing something greater.
They're experiencing, in alllikelihood, they're experiencing
awe. And one of the things thatwe know about awe is it's very
good for our mental health. It'slike gratitude on steroids, and
if you put someone's into aneuroimaging situation, the
receptors that become activatedin our brain when we're
(09:30):
experiencing awe are the same asthose that are hit on when we
take in psilocybin, thepsychoactive chemical for magic
mushrooms, but with awe, We cando it without needing to take in
external agent, we can just getit ourselves, and we can get it
anytime. So I looked at thosefour ways that we connect, and
(09:50):
what I know for sure is, andthere are very few things I can
say I know for sure is that weneed to have quota. We need to
meet quota around connection inthe.
Four areas. And I don't tellthem where to find it, but I
basically tell them, these arethe things that you're going to
be looking for as you go on thequest to figure out your own
(10:11):
connection formula. Yeah, when Iwas like reading it, I was kind
of, I was, there's a lot of methinking about the order of
them, of like connection toself, like spirits, like in
there, or under the hood, orit's like the self kind of comes
out of, out of spirit, orspiritual, and it, as you were
describing, just came to me thatit's, it's really like, I'd
rather put these, I'd put thesein a circle where it's like, you
(10:32):
know, self leads, you know,spirit can lead to self, can
lead to others, can lead to theworld, can lead to spirit can
lead to this. Like they're allThey're all interconnected.
Like, there really isn't like,one more important than the
other. I will say I do thinkthat, like the spirit and the
self, I think actually are theare the most important to
actually know if these, ifthese, the world and the other
(10:53):
people are working for us.
Otherwise, again, it's likethings kind of get inverted. And
it's like maybe it's become anattachment, not a connection by
your by your healthy definition,yeah, so I might see it just a
little differently. Oh, it'salmost like we're two blind men
touching an elephant each of us,you know, grasping at different
parts. But the way I see it isconnection to ourself is
(11:14):
primary. And one of the things Iknow for sure is that people do
need people so others are veryimportant. The question is, Who
are the others that we shouldallow in our lives, and who are
the others that maybe we shouldminimize or actually block?
And how do we connect withothers? How do we do it in a
(11:35):
meaningful way? One of thethings that we were not taught
in school, very sadly, is how toconnect well with another
person, there's a great quotethat was conveyed to me by a
colleague of mine, andapparently is attributed to a
great British psychoanalyst,Donald wenckott, who apparently
said something akin to truepsychological health can be
exhibited by one's willingnessto share their own experience
(11:57):
with another and the ability totake in The experience of
another. So a good upload anddownload, and that's not
something we're taught inschool. And yeah, connecting
with the world. I mean, whenwe're thinking about our jobs, I
mean one of the two things thatpeople talk about most in my
office, if it was Family Feud,our number one answer would be
love. The next one would be thejob. Those are the two things
(12:18):
that take up most of our time.
In fact, who we marry, if we getmarried, or who's our
significant other, and who wereport to at work are our most
significant others in terms ofthe amount of time that we spend
with people, and we betterchoose wisely and find good
ways, good strategies, toconnect with those folks. I can
tell you're a very spiritualperson because you gravitated
(12:41):
immediately toward the fourthrealm. And it doesn't
necessarily mean that they haveto be in any particular
sequence, but that's just how Iimagine them. And most many
people have validated it. Butwhat you're saying isn't is
equally valid. You grab,gravitate towards self and
spiritual and less towardsothers in the world. The world.
(13:01):
But that really speaks to,really the way you look at this
Rorschach, so to speak, andthis, this basically tells me,
hey, yeah, this is what, this iswhat Justin's into we talk in a
couple years. And maybe it's,maybe it's shit Exactly,
exactly, because I am, actually,I am at, I am very interested in
and other people at this. Like,it's because it is one of those,
(13:25):
like, there's been a big periodof me sort of, like, disc
disconnecting from people thatwere not, like, a good match.
And I really try to see it as,like, it's not like that.
They're they're bad people. It'sjust they're not, they're not
the best, they're not nourishingfor me, what, you know, where
I'm at or where I'm going, butit's like, you know, it's like,
I'm now divorced, you know, it'slike I've had, well, my mother's
now passed, but it's like, withboth of my parents, there were
(13:47):
times where I was like, Okay, Ican't talk to you, and now I
can't talk to you, and I'm like,Okay, it's time for me to make
some friends. It's time to makesome friends. That's been a
focus of, like, a couple weeks,and it's already started to,
like shift, or just people arestarting to come in. And I think
a little bit, I think helpingyour book, but I know that's one
of your TED talks, is makingfriends as an adult. And I
really would kind of love tohear, you know, maybe some of
(14:09):
the things of like, just, yeah,what are some ways to make it
more productive or useful?
Because I, you know, it's like,I look back and it's like a lot
of friend making is just basedon, like, convenience, or you're
just thrust together, and justkind of happens in some ways,
especially in, like, a largercity, where it's like we almost
(14:30):
have so much choice. Sometimes,I know there's some something of
that, or more choice actuallydoesn't make you happier.
Sometimes it's like diminishingreturns of
it's like, okay, I don't need8000 types of yogurt. I just, I
just want to choose betweenthree and sometimes, like, well,
then I just want to have yogurtif there's too many choices.
But yeah, I'd love to hear youryour thoughts of, you know, of
(14:53):
what you've what you've learnedon adults making quality
friendships. Yeah. So the waythis TEDx talk.
Hit me in the ass, so to speak.
To borrow from what I saidearlier, is I had been working
with so many incrediblyfriendable People who said to
me, my gosh, you know, I wasborn in Ohio, I went to school
in New York, then I went myfirst job in Texas, and now I'm
(15:14):
living here in Silicon Valley.
And in each of those places, Ihad friends, and I swore I would
stay in touch with them, but Ididn't. Now I've got kids, and
I've kind of become friends withthe parents of my kids friends,
and they're not necessarily thepeople I would choose as my
friends, but we have some typeof relationship. They're the
(15:35):
closer friends or acquaintancemore of circumstance than of
exactly nourishing you on allthe levels you would like to get
checked in a Yeah. And one ofthe things that Esther Perel
talks about, she's one of thegreat couple therapists, is that
back in the day, not very longago, in the history of time, we
used to live in villages wherewe had multiple people serving
(15:56):
different roles. We hadsomebody, we'd hunt with
somebody. We'd fish withsomebody. We'd build things with
somebody, we'd knit withsomebody fill in the blank, and
now we rely on our spouses, oursignificant others, to fill all
of the roles of all of thepeople in the village. And
that's way too much weight.
Yeah, like they're not even justthe perfect, the perfect lover
partners. They're also, they'realso the best friend too, right?
(16:19):
Like that. It's like, it'severything, it's it's, right?
And I see dune over yourshoulder. If I I've watched dune
with my son, I love the movie,and I know for a fact my wife
would not enjoy that movie. Andif I needed to lean on her to be
the person to watch that moviewith me, we would both be
miserable. She would be unhappy,and I would feel her, you notice
that, and I will not watch theGolden State Warriors with her.
(16:40):
That's just not her that's justnot her jam. She fills so many
great roles. She's the greatesthuman being I've ever known, and
yet she cannot be all of thethings no one can. So we do need
friends for different things,and I like thinking of friends
as being superheroes withsuperpowers and limitations. I
love that spider man can spinthe hell out of a web, but he's
(17:02):
not going to be able to fly likeSuperman. And I may have a
friend that I watch sports withwith, but I wouldn't rely on him
for my emotional needs. Andthere might be a friend with
whom I talk about really highlevel, brainy stuff, but would
definitely not be the guy Iwould call on when I'm going to
be moving to a new place in theHey dude, could you help me
(17:22):
move? So each friend hasdifferent superpowers and
limitations. We need toappreciate them for who they
are. And as you said earlier,sometimes it's not a match. They
might be great people, but thechemical combination isn't
there, and it's a reflection onthem being bad people. It's just
a question of, how do ourchemicals really interact? Is
it? Is it? Is it alive? And Ihave a thing that I call the
(17:48):
drive away test, and that is,after sitting with a person, how
do you feel as you're drivingaway or leaving the interaction?
Do you feel taller? Do you feelhappier, or do you feel smaller?
Do you feel exhausted? And theseare important things to listen
to in terms of ascertaining howwe will allocate our time. Our
time is our one non renewableresource. We can lose our health
(18:10):
and get it back. We can lose ourmoney and get it back. We can't
lose our time and get it back.
And so how we allocate time forfriends is very important, and
how we choose friends is veryimportant. And as you said
earlier, your ideas of thingsmay change in the next few
years, as might your prioritiesfor friendship. I remember when
I was a little boy, all that Ineeded was, you know, a
(18:31):
heartbeat and somebody with aball who lived next door and
knock on the door and say, Let'sgo throw a ball. I have a
friend. As I got older, it was aquestion of, do they have social
interests that are similar tome, or academic interests that
are similar to and then, overtime, I really cared about,
truly about integrity andreliability and the, you know,
(18:53):
somebody who made me a betterperson and who I felt made me a
better person, these are notthings I want to think about
when I was eight years old. Oh,yeah. Or, let alone in high
school. In high school, youknow, I just wanted cool people
to hang with, and that's fairlynormal. And as we get older, our
needs for friendship, thefilters, so to speak, that we're
(19:14):
looking for, do tend to change.
And the problem is we all are sobusy. I mean, who has time to
find friends or make friends?
And I would say we all need todo that. And the way we can do
it is we can couple it withsomething we already like doing.
We can go to a meetup and go toon a hike. Worst case scenario,
we drive home after having had agreat hike. Bestse scenario, you
(19:35):
meet somebody really cool whoalso likes hiking, and you have
an incredible conversation andthe start of a beautiful
friendship. So there are manyways to make friends. I
personally have found having adog to be one of the best things
you can have. As soon as youwalk through the neighborhood,
people will engage you. Peoplewill not engage you if you don't
have a dog. Very, very unlikely.
There are actual psychologicalstudies, sociological studies,
(19:56):
that show that some of.
Who's walking a dog is far morelikely to be engaged in person
who's not walking a dog. Andafter my first dog died, one of
the things I did in my owngrieving process was I made a
list of all of the people my dogintroduced me to, many of whom
are dear friends, one of whomgot me my first TED Talk. So all
(20:16):
I can tell you is, there are,there are ways to make friends.
We need them. Even the mostintroverted amongst us needs to
have a friend. There's so manygreat things. One cool thing is,
like, do something that you'reyou're gonna enjoy doing. You
know, whether you make a friendthere or not, right? You know,
it's like, I'm thinking back tosome bad advice, I think,
especially like earlier on, mylate 20s, early 30s and single I
(20:39):
was like, oh, you know, go meet,go meet women at these, you
know, social kickball, likesports, sports ball stuff. I
don't, I don't really likesports. And I'm just like, No
thank you. And they're like, andsomebody's like, and I told the
person this, and like, oh, well,a lot of women go there and they
don't like sports either. AndI'm like, this does not sound
like the good baby, that's notyour recipe.
(21:01):
But, yeah, I love that. JustJust go where you're going to
enjoy the activity, but there'sother people there too, because
it's like, if there's if you'renot leaving the house and you're
not being around other people,there's close to zero chance.
And then I think the other thingthat I really, really picked up
on from you is it sounds like,when you find something that
like, you like about a personlike, let that one thing be
(21:23):
enough to just keep interactingwith them and drop any
expectation of getting thewhole, you know, having your
whole 100 point list of whatmakes my best friend thing. Just
like, if you just enjoy dancing,just go do more dancing with
them. If you're just like, youknow, talking about sports, just
talk sports. And maybe there'llbe more. Maybe not. Is that? Is
(21:43):
that something I'm picking upthat? I mean, there are no hard
and fast rules. The probably, ifthere were a hard and fast rule,
make sure you're not withsomebody who diminishes you.
Wants you to be smaller. We wantpeople. I mean, there's this
great, well, that's, that'syour, your driveway test part,
right? Part of the drivewaytest. The other thing is, I love
that scene in Good Will Huntingwhere the Ben Affleck character,
(22:07):
who is from Southie, Boston,looks at the Matt Damon
character and says, I don't wantto see you back here in Southie.
I love you too much for you tohave a diminished life. Many
friends, when they hear thattheir friend will be doing
something big and bold areafraid of abandonment, and you
want somebody who's going tocheer for you to become the best
person you can be. You wantsomebody who's going to cheer
(22:29):
you to be in the bestrelationship you can be in and
find the best career, orwhatever is true for your life.
You want somebody who's acheerleader, so irrespective of
their superpowers, you wantsomebody who doesn't diminish
you, but you want somebody whogrows you and who you also grow.
You want it to be a beautifulback and forth in that way,
regardless of the shared bond. Iagree with you on this, and I'll
(22:51):
take it a step further, and youmight disagree with this, but I
kind of believe that the onlything worse than having, you
know, no friends or noconnections, is having like,
these sort of like bullshitfriends, bullshit that are
diminishing, keeping you small.
You know, even they might saythat, but less like draining
you, killing you. And I hadthese friends like, you know,
it's often in school and earlyon in work where, and it's just
(23:13):
like, well, I guess it could beworse. I could be here alone, or
I could be sitting with withthese other people that are
even, even worse, but it's likeI'm getting older, but am I Am I
growing? Am I learning? Am Ivibrant? So it's like I've kind
of gone through a process of,like, clearing the deck in a lot
of ways. And just like, it's gotto be of a certain level,
otherwise, I'm I'd rather justconnect with myself absolutely.
(23:33):
You don't want to be extortedinto hanging out with people
because you're lonely andhanging out with people who
diminish you. Jim Rohn, a greatthinker years ago, once said he
was amazing, and he said, youbecome the average of the five
people with whom you spend themost time. And I think that's
true. We do become the average.
So choosing them carefully. Do Iwant to be like this person? Are
(23:55):
they? Are they people who bringout my best? Are they people who
I bring out their best? Is it?
Is their mutuality is theirreciprocity here. And if there
isn't, I would say gettingcomfortable with solo activities
is really, really important, sothat you are not solely, you
know, at the behest of beingwith people who aren't good for
you. Yeah, and as someone whodoes it a lot, and I think it
(24:17):
sounds like you've, you did it alot in the past. Like, it's
like, I love going to a movie bymyself myself, or traveling by
myself, and I love doing thosewith people. When it's people,
like, I that want to do thatactivity with me, and we want to
share in it. But sometimes just,like, I just, I just want to
watch this movie, and I justwant to watch it,
(24:40):
and yeah, and I don't have todebate with somebody, and it can
be very empowering, just like,I'm gonna do what I want when I
want, for a little chunk oftime. I don't have you ever
heard of the book The artistsway, for sure, was it, yeah,
very informative for so manypeople. Yeah. One of the things
she talks about is having thisartist date, and it's all just
like, do one activity a week.
That's just all by yourself, sothat your inner artist can just
(25:04):
play, do whatever it wants, buthaving to worry about what
somebody else is going to do, Icouldn't agree more. I think
it's genius. And yeah, I mean,it's not the quantity of
friends, it's the quality offriends that really matter. That
sounds almost corny at thispoint, but it's really true. I
remember meeting somebody, andshe said, Oh, and I had a party,
and I invited 100 of my closestfriends. And I was thinking,
(25:26):
Yeah, I don't know that you canbe super, super close with 100
people, but fantastic. That'syour experience way back in
college. I remember I but forsome reason that left an
impression on me, and it seemedlike a bit far fetched. I think
that if we're going to haveclose friends, we want to have
want to have, you know, I thinkthat paring down and having a
reasonable number and people whoshow up and people who are truly
(25:51):
reliable and kind, these are,these are qualities we're
looking for. Yeah, and I'll,maybe, I'll give it to this
person that maybe, maybe theircapacity of depth of relating.
Maybe those were genuinely the100 closest, because there's,
you know, not much capacity toget too deep. I like, I like
your take on that, Justin again,not someone I would want to be,
(26:14):
you know, a friend probably atthis point in my life. But you
know, again, I don't have to befriends with everyone. I love
that. I love that. I love that,and you've caused me to see it
differently just now, and you'veactually changed my mind, and
now I've actually seen it asmaybe that's her superpower,
maybe that's her neuraldifference. Why not? But that
certainly didn't, it didn't, Ican say it didn't resonate with
(26:36):
me, but maybe it was entirelytrue. Who knows?
Because, like, I'm sure, I'msure you've probably run into
some of these people here in theBay Area, the Silicon Valley,
with all the tech stuff. Like,maybe even heard like, there was
this event. Was it just lastFriday called, like, the the
quarter century Giga party.
(26:57):
It was insane. And it was like,you know, a bunch of the top VCs
were sponsoring it, and it waslike 1000s of people at the San
Francisco nightclub. And it'slike, I kind of know the woman
who, you know, hosted it andcoordinated it, because I think
I sort of met her when she firststarted, like, doing event
organization and stuff likethat. And it's like, so to get
an event where she has 3000people showing up, it's like she
(27:19):
must have a list of 20, 50,000people, or whatever, and, you
know? And I was just like, thisis not this is not me. This is
not like a but she's incredibleat it. And it's like, you know,
glad there's some people thatcan do that stuff, because it's
not me. And, yeah, it was aspectacle to attend and see this
thing. And that's interesting,as you say, that Justin, it
(27:40):
calls to mind a title of a greatbook from Milan Kundera. The
Unbearable Lightness of Being,it feels like it just wouldn't
be, for me, substantial enough.
I want to have some really,really deep conversations, deep
relationships. So for me, lessis more. But perhaps for this
individual, that's what feedsthem, and that's what's so
interesting about the whole ideaof the whole idea of the
(28:01):
connection formula, perhaps forthis individual, that's as much
closeness as she needs. So whoam I to say? All I can say is,
we will be born and we will die,and what we do in the middle
matters. And if that is hertruth, and it might be that her
truth changes in five years,just as you and I are talking
about, we don't know, yeah, somaybe that she does it like a
180 and says, You know what, Ijust want to hang out with my
(28:25):
five closest friends. So whoknows what happens? Yeah,
because in some ways I feel likelife, you know, this middle, you
know, between birth and death.
It's just, it's a series ofgames, and we get to choose what
we want to play. And there'sreally no game better or worse
than the other. You know, thegame of like, Can I have a party
of 3000 people, or can I havethe most in depth with one soul,
(28:49):
you know, for my entirelifetime, you know, which would
I guess would be, you know, areally good, you know,
monogamous marriage to whateverthat person would be, you know,
and then everything in between.
And it's like, that's right? Andthen you're also talking about
the idea of social comparison inJomo. One of the things that I
know for sure is that when wecompare ourselves to others, it
tends to go badly. We need tocompare ourselves to ourselves,
(29:12):
get in touch with who we are andwhat we want. And I also know
that FOMO is, you know, it'ssomething that's part of our the
human condition. PatrickMcGinnis, the guy who actually
coined the term, has been on mypodcast. He wrote a book called
FOMO Sapiens, which I foundhilarious, and it's just really
brilliant. But yeah, on onSunday night, I was supposed to
(29:32):
go see a comedian I reallyliked, and I My sister just told
me it was epic. And I on Sundaynight, I realized, will you
share who it was that you wantedto see? It was Alex Moffat from
Saturday Night Live. And I lovehim. He's just, I think he's
brilliant. And he was playing ata relatively small venue. I
(29:53):
bought the tickets, and onSunday night, I really got clear
a I was.
Exhausted and be I just wantedto be with my wife and son.
Yeah, I was willing to foregothe money. It was a loss
financially, but I experiencedwhat one of my friends refers to
as Jomo, the joy of missing out.
Yeah, well, because I starteddoing this a few times the past
(30:17):
past year or two as well. And mymost recent was, like, was a was
for, like, a guar concert. Doyou ever? Do you remember guar?
They would dress up as, like,aliens, and it's like hardcore
metal, but it's like satirical,and that, like, they'll, you
know, it's like, they'll mock,you know, chop a guy's head off,
and, like, fake blood willspread out all over the it's
(30:40):
ridiculous and nonsense. Andlike, I saw them in high school,
yeah? And apparently they'restill around. I think it's
because they wear costumes. Theykind of, I think some of the
guys have died, but theyreplaced them, yeah, which they
can because the costumes, yeah?
But it was like, I wasn'tfeeling well, and I'm just like,
I'm not gonna go because I'm notfeeling I'm not feeling well,
(31:01):
and that it's like a feeling ofwealth, like, kind of came up in
me. I was just like, oh, I canreally do what feels best for me
now. Yeah, that right, there wasconnection with self from where
I sit. That's amazing. And yousaid, You know what? Yeah, I'm
gonna listen. So one of things Iknow for sure is that when we're
not connected to ourselves, it'sas if we have a massive head
(31:24):
cold, or we have a bunch ofrocks in our shoe. How well do
we connect with somebody if wehave a massive head cold, how
well do we connect withourselves when we I mean, all we
can think about is this massivehead cold, and they just can't
wait for it to go away. Insertwhatever physiological, physical
thing that is superuncomfortable for you. It might
not be a kid Ed cold. It might,you know, being poked with with
(31:47):
it, with a thumbtack. I don'tknow what it is, but all I can
tell you is, when we are inpain, it's a kid not being
connected to ourselves, becauseoftentimes we become what's
called Alexa thymic. We're outof touch with our emotions. We
don't know what our emotionsare. They become estranged from
us, and we need if I was to sayto you, I mean, some people
would say emotions are useless,whatever. They're not for me.
(32:09):
And I'd say, fantastic. Hey, youknow what can I have the keys to
your car? And they'd say, why?
And I say, I'm just doing anexperiment. Just Just trust me.
So I go to their car and I put awhole bunch of black electrical
tape all over their dashboard,and I say, fantastic. All right
now go ahead and drive around,and they'll say, Are you high?
Like, what? What did you do tomy dashboard? And I said, Well,
that's basically what you'redoing with your emotions. Your
emotions are meant to be data.
(32:32):
Not all of them are meaningful,and feelings are not facts,
yeah, but we do need to leaninto them and figure out a
better way to relate to ouremotions, because sometimes
they're directives. Sometimesthey're directives to say, You
know what, I'm not going to gosee guar I'm not going to go see
this comedian, or I need to, inspite of the fact that this is
terrifying, sometimes we becomesmart enough and say, and the
(32:54):
emotion is there, I'm stillgoing to do the thing, because
it's a target behavior. But Iface the fear, and I do it
anyway. And the fear, if we alsoknow that having fear is a
precursor for courage, if we'redoing the target thing, of
course not, if we're doingsomething reckless or like, you
(33:14):
know what, I'm scared? Yeah,there's appropriate there's
appropriate fear. Like, all of asudden, if there's a bangle
Tiger. It's like, I is somefears. That's how that's that's
healthy. It's like, what is abangle Tiger doing, doing in San
Jose? This is, this is somethingnot this is out of the normal,
but anything else, it's like,we're probably going to be fine
for the most part, and yet. Andto your point, yeah. And with
(33:35):
the 24 hour news cycle andsocial media, everything seems
urgent, everything seemsterrifying. Everything has
massive implications, or so wethink, because what they're
doing is they're hoping to geteyeball eyeballs, if it bleeds,
it leads, and we need to getbetter at doing is deciphering,
huh? Is this truly a crisis, orare they blowing things out of
proportion? To get my attention?
That's just about, it's like,what's like, what's, what's the
(33:58):
product, oh, it's, it'sadvertising, and I'm the
product, and it's like, it's100% they're trying to hijack
your eyeballs to just, yeah, andI think that's one of the I
would call that as like, healthydisconnection, is how to
cultivate or cut off your feedon social media and or the news
totally. And the word hijack isperfect Justin, because the part
of our brain that's responsiblefor fear and anger resides in
(34:21):
our emotional centers of thelimbic system, which is known as
the amygdala. The amygdala isthis almond shaped piece that's
in our brain on both sides, andit's there ostensibly to protect
us, but these days, it canhijack our our prefrontal
cortex, the place where we doplanning and really good
decision making and analysis,and it can hijack our abilities
(34:43):
to really think. So if we arebombarding ourselves with
fearful stuff on social media,we might not be thinking at our
best. We might get angry andscared, say something that we
can't take back, do somethingthat we can't undo. So.
So in many cases, this fear,also known as the can be related
(35:04):
to the negativity bias, whichmeans that if we hear a rustling
in the leaves, we imagine it's aBengal tiger. When in Pacifica
or in Silicon Valley, where Iam, it's probably a squirrel.
Oh, yeah, yeah. I love thatanalogy of ignoring your
emotions is like ignoring, youknow, everything going on in the
instrument panel. I am curioushow many people have many people
have died because of yourexperiment, but I think, so far,
(35:25):
nobody's done it, and I've notdone it with anybody. It's
merely a thought experiment.
It's all in the day. It's all inthe name of self improvement.
AndI'm sure, I'm sure this might be
something that you comes up alot, because then, you know,
working with Silicon Valley Techpeople, there's and, you know, I
worked at a company that wasreally big on we're a data
driven company, and it's that'sjust like, the biggest, the
(35:46):
biggest lie, because, becausehumans are emotion driven period
in the story, because we'realways choosing what data we're
going to allow in and toentertain. I saw it so many
times where it's like, wait, youhave a better relationship with
this person. So you, you youweigh their data more than the
other, even though the other isactually, from an objective
(36:06):
standpoint, has higher quality,did more in depth and all these
other things. But there's alittle bit of like, Yeah, So
Justin, you're talking aboutcognitive biases. And there's,
there are about 200 of them, andwe can, for example, newscasters
who are really attractive, wetend to believe they're smarter
and more credible becausethey're good looking than
somebody who would be less goodlooking and who actually may be
(36:29):
more credible and moreintelligent. And that's called,
you know, the halo effect.
There's so many suggestinAnderson Cooper
isn't true. He's got all of he'sgot all, he's got all, he's got
all of the things. He's amazing.
He's good looking, okay? Hetends to be accurate. I'm not
saying he throws a strike everytime, but I would say he's one
(36:50):
of the more credible people,although I'm leaving my lane,
but what? But I'm not, yeah, Ilove, I love you some. Anderson
Cooper, he's great, yeah, whatI'm driving at here is,
to your point, we are emotionalbeings, and emotions are
coursing through us all day,every day, all the time, whether
aware of them are not. AndAnthony Damasio, out of MIT
(37:13):
actually has found that if youremove the emotional centers of
the brain, that brain cannotmake decisions, because emotions
are always a factor in ourdecision making processes, for
better or for worse. But themore we become in relationship
with those emotions and are ableto figure out, hey, is this, is
this real, or is this, is thisjust my fear limiting me? I
think it's like, clearly justfrom that you can't it's like
(37:36):
emotions are a point, are animportant part. And I think I
might almost argue that that theemotional experience is, is the
point of the human experience.
It is like, what is theemotional journey like you get
to go on like it's, you know,and the connection is part of
that, you know, it's the it'sthe anticipation, the
excitement, the joy, the love,and then even the the loss like
(37:56):
that. You know, some people cango a long time without
experience with that experiencewith people, but it's like you
get in the world of of pets, andit's like it's likely going to
happen a lot sooner. And thatwas one of the stories I really
did love from your book, was thestory of how you got your first
first cat. Because I had, like,a very similar experience to
having a cat foisted upon mewhen I was living with the woman
(38:18):
that she was a girlfriend at thetime, and we eventually got
married, but it was one day Iwas like, we're getting a cat.
You're either coming along ornot. And you know, this orange,
orange fluff ball Julius getsput in my lap, and it's just
like, god damn it, I guess fine.
And that's, yeah, and you'reactually looking at the box over
my right shoulder is are theremains of my very first cat.
(38:40):
He's always in my office. I he'sbeen so instructed. His name was
Yoda. It was appropriate for hewas a Yoda. He was actually a
teacher that cat, right? He wasand he was treated by a
Veterinary Oncologist rightthere in Pacifica. But, yeah,
we're chasing feelings, is whatwe're chasing in this lifetime.
To your point, you got it right.
I believe that's what we'rerunning after. Is an experience,
(39:01):
a felt experience when we listento music, if it's just an
intellectual experience, I wouldsay it the music has, at least
in my case, it would not havereached me fully. I wanted to
hit my emotions as well. I canlook at the technician and say,
wow, they technically, what agreat musician, but I really
(39:22):
want the emotional experience oflike, wow, that music really
does something to me. And thetitle super psyched does not
mean super happy all the time.
It means super connected to ourpsyches that we are when we are
feeling happy, we own thehappiness and the joy when we're
feeling grief stricken we are,we are able to leverage that as
(39:46):
well. So irrespective of thething that we are able to embody
it and be connected. Yeah, Ilove that, because it's like one
of these things I've been, youknow, learning more and more
through practices like the thejoy of living.
Isn't that you feel joy, happyall the time, it's that even in
the you know, the depressed, thesad, the grief, the anger, the
(40:08):
whatever, there's a partrecognizing this is part of the
human experience, and then whenyou're conscious of it, of like
and this is part of me, learningdepth and getting clear on maybe
what's the next emotionalexperience I want to go through,
that there becomes an aspect ofjoy to that even in those you
know, what we would usuallyconsider shitty moments? Well,
(40:31):
we do need those so calledshitty moments, yeah, because
they happen no matter how wellthings go in life. And they do
become a basis of comparison aswell. Like, part of the joy is,
wow. I have a basis ofcomparison. I know what I know
joy because I also know. I knowI know loss. My losses have
allowed so much more joys in mylife that it's like, when I was
(40:53):
at, you know, before and in themiddle of it, I never would have
thought. And you always hear ofpeople like, Oh, I'm so but
it's, it's true. It's like, oh,these, these grieving moments,
have been the greatest, thegreatest gifts of my entire
lifetime. And it really is. It'slike, how do you go through it?
And it's like, it doesn'tnecessarily have to be, it
doesn't have to be as hard,especially when you're
connected. The more connection,the easier it is for all of
(41:14):
these things. And so that's why,you know, working with someone
like you, or having the book, orhaving friends, or having, you
know, pets or nature orconnection to spirit. That's
what makes all of these, youknow, downs actually don't have
to feel like as down when we'rewhen we really feel alone or
with people diminishing us.
Then, then it's just, it's, canbe almost unbearable at times.
(41:34):
And it's when I've had timeswhen it's like, Oh, I get. I get
some people that, you know, whenthey when they do take their
lives, like, I get, I get thethe drive. For me, it's always
just been like, I don't know,I'm still, there's a little bit
of I'm hopeful that there'ssomething's going to happen.
There's a little bit of like,why should I have to do more
work than I've already done?
But Well, I mean, I can'tcomment on all of that, but one
(41:56):
thing I can say is that when wethink about depression, it is
basically hopelessness timesthree, according to Aaron Beck,
who's one of the foundingfathers of cognitive behavioral
therapy, and what he found isthat it's hopelessness about
self future in the world. Andone of the things that
(42:18):
can possibly attend to a senseof hopelessness is finding a way
to healthfully connect, andthat's really what I'm hoping to
help people do with this book,is to find what is true for
them, how they can connect tosomething that is empowering and
allow them to feel more vitalitythroughout life, rather than
(42:39):
That hopelessness. And many ofus were born with genes that are
more likely to render usdepressed or anxious. But one
thing I know from Sonia lugarmercies work is that we have a
lot more and in our controlthrough intentional behaviors,
about 50% of our happiness,according to her replicable
(43:03):
studies, are attributable togenes. About 10%
are about our currentsituations, and 40% are within
our control through intentionalactions. And the 40% is actually
a nice, a nice chunk of the pie,if you think about it, and
that's what this book is aimingto attend to, the 40%
(43:24):
that we have control of, yeah,which is huge, especially kind
of considering that, I think alot of times we think that,
like, oh, you only get, like,one flip of the coin or one spin
of the wheel, but really we'respinning that wheel non stop. So
if you get to own 40% of theroulette wheel, you're going to
be a winner a lot more often,right? Well, Justin, it's been
(43:45):
amazing to be with you. Oh yeah.
I was going to say, like, it'stime to write, like, any
last words, last words are that?
Yeah. I hope you check out thebook. I hope it speaks to you in
some way. And that, what I foundis that if we can attend to one
area at a time, I do love theaxiom, chase two rabbits. Get
neither. So maybe do one thingat a time from the book, and I
(44:10):
use it as a guide. And if youwant to hit me up, As Justin
mentioned, I'm I've got a fairlylarge web presence. I'm here in
San Jose, dr, Adam dorsey.com,and love to hear from you.
Yeah. Thanks so much, Adam. Andyeah, I already I got motivated
from reading your book to goback to to Toastmasters. I did
(44:33):
my first suite right on, youknow, in like six years last
week, and it was so much fun andgreat people. And so it really
does have a lot of goodresources, ideas to get the
connection, the connectionsgoing in the healthy, fulfilling
way that we all want. Sodefinitely go check out super
psyched at Amazon and all theother places you buy your books.
(44:54):
And also, Adam's got the superpsyched podcast. And then Dr
Adam Dorsey.
Dot com, where you can get allthe amazing stuff,
kind of TED Talks and all that.
So thanks so much. Adam, goodchatting and good day everybody.
Thanks for tuning in toengineering emotions and energy
with Justin Wenck PhD. Today'sepisode resonated with you.
(45:15):
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will love it just as much as youdo. Together, we're engineering
more amazing lives you.
When we listen to music, if it'sjust an intellectual experience,
(00:03):
I would say it the music has, atleast in my case, it would not
have reached me fully. I wantedto hit my emotions as well. I
mean, I can look at thetechnician and say, Wow,
technically, what a greatmusician, but I really want the
emotional experience of like,wow, that music really does
something to mean the titlesuper psyched does not mean
super happy all the time. Itmeans super connected to our
(00:25):
psyches. When we are feelinghappy, we own the happiness and
the joy when we're feeling griefstricken, and we are able to
leverage that as well.
Are you ready to live a lifewith enough time, money and
energy have relationships andconnections that delight you.
Are you ready for theextraordinary life you know
(00:47):
you've been missing? If so, thenthis is the place for you. I'm a
best selling author, coach,consultant and speaker who's
worked in technology for overtwo decades. I'm a leader at
transforming people andorganizations, from operating in
fear, obligation and guilt torunning off joy, ease and love.
It's time for engineeringemotions and energy with me.
(01:10):
Justin Wenck PhDtoday, we are talking about
connecting, and I'm superpsyched to have Dr Adam Dorsey,
the author of super psyched, thefour types of connection. He is
an executive coach in SiliconValley. He's a licensed
psychologist. He works withcrazy high achieving adults at
(01:34):
some of the highest and, youknow, our companies and, yeah.
And he's got an award winningpodcast, also called super
psyched. And he's delivered acouple of really highly regarded
TED talks, one on men and theiremotions. I didn't I thought
there was only two numbness andanger that I'm I'm curious
about, and then also friendshipand adulthood. So Adam's book,
(01:56):
you can find it basicallyanywhere you can find a book, so
Amazon, all the places. So,Adam, welcome to the show. So
good. Justin, connect with you.
So happy to be with you. Man,yeah, like you're I, I really
enjoyed reading your bookbecause connection has been
something that, like, it's, it'salways been a theme in my life,
(02:18):
and it's just even and it'slike, almost the right book and
like, the right interview at thethe right time. And what I loved
about the book was, you know,your personal stories for
yourself. I always likesomebody's personal stories
about themselves. You have somany great anecdotes, but it was
just, it was like, I'm like, Ifeel so similar and also so
different from you. I thinkthat's just part of the human
(02:40):
experience. Is like, we're sosimilar with our differences.
And one of those was, you weretalking, I think about you were
really young, and at some pointyou went to try to, like, play
with like, 12 different kids,and they all shot you down, yes,
and I'm just like, I don't, Ithink I was just like, I
wouldn't even go up to one kid,because it's like, I could just
(03:01):
feel that. I'm like, this is notgoing to go well, or at least
that's my earliest memory. Andit's like that you you went
through the 12 to get the shot,and I'm like, we are so
different, but yet we both werelonging for that, that
connection, that like, I wantsomeone to play with and like.
And I just thought that was abeautiful, beautiful anecdote as
part of the book. Of like, youknow, this is not a new thing.
(03:24):
Like, what is it in your workand what you found that has
drawn you to, you know, writinga book about connection, and
being this one of the focalpoints and, and, you know, your
your many years in this, in thisarea. Well, Justin, I'm so glad
you asked. I knew that I wouldwrite a book when it bit me so
hard. To borrow from Irv yall atStanford. He said every book he
(03:44):
ever wrote bit him in the ass,and this topic bit me in the
ass, in the sense that it tookhold of me. I had been
practicing as a psychotherapistfor over 20,000 hours, and it
just this word kept coming upthis word connection in my
podcast with all these thoughtleaders, the word connection
(04:06):
just kept showing up. And Irealized that there hadn't
really been a book dedicated tothis topic that seems to be the
precursor of everything we want.
It's certainly present ineverything we don't want, I
should say absent in everythingwe don't want. If you look
through the DSM, which is whatmental health practitioners use
to diagnose people, yeah, with,for example, depression, it a
(04:29):
big part of depression is adisconnection from the present,
because oftentimes we'rethinking about the past when
we're anxious, we're oftendisconnected from the present,
thinking about the future andworried about that. Oftentimes,
with trauma, a big hallmark ofit can be dissociation, which is
a disconnection, as well as inpsychosis, of course, which is
severe mental illness, it'scharacterized with a break from
(04:52):
reality itself. So there's adisconnection there too. So at
the heart of almost everythingwe don't want is.
Connection, and it seemslogical, and it's been,
certainly, my experience as aclinician, that at the heart of
everything we do want isconnection. Doesn't mean we want
to be connected all the time.
Sometimes we want a pleasantAssociation. Sometimes we want
to watch Netflix and justdissociate and just let go. For
(05:13):
sure, if I'm giving blood andthey're going to be jamming a
needle up my arm, which I hate.
I would prefer to not be there,so to speak. So I dissociate
during those moments. So I'm notsaying we want to be connected
all the time, but yeah,moderation, right? And it's,
it's all, it's in healthy doses.
And I'm with you with theneedles. I'm like, the other
(05:33):
way, like, why chance it? Why?
You know, why do I don't want tolook at that? And, yeah, so
totally. But to your point,Justin there are similarities
and differences, and that's whyI say that each person has a
different formula to find theirversions of connecting. And I
came up with a definition ofconnection because in the
(05:53):
Webster's Dictionary, it's arather lackluster definition.
It's like two train carsconnecting with each other. And
that's clearly not what peopleare talking about when they say,
I really long for connection.
Yeah, not what they're longingYeah. And this is something I
definitely want to get into alittle bit. Is this a concept of
maybe healthy disconnection, ordisconnecting so that you can
(06:16):
have the connections that thatyou really want to long for?
Because I think you kind ofmentioned a little bit in your
book, a little bit little bit inyour book, a little bit about
this idea of, like, enmeshment,and there's probably some other
stuff. And I know for myself,I've been going through like, a
period of disconnecting fromstuff I was uncon that I
unconsciously connected to thatwas not for me. And then now
it's sort of like getting intothis period of like, okay, now
(06:36):
I'm going to, now I'm what, whatdo I really want to connect to
like from choice and as an adultand things like that. And
yes, I'd love to get a littlebit into that of like that,
that like that, it's, yeah, it'snot just any connection, right?
It's not just like, okay, aslong as I'm hooked up to
something, I'm good, like, Ithink we we feel it, but I
(07:00):
don't, yeah, I think that's beenmissing in our culture, that
like it's we want more thanthat. You got it. This book is
all about intention, using whatwe know we like from history and
also from experimentation, forwhat leaves us feeling
connected. Now the definitionfor connection that we came up
with for this book, and I say webecause I consulted about 10
(07:21):
other licensed mental healthprofessionals to create a
working definition forconnection. But it's what brings
us alive. It's life force, andyou and I both know it when we
feel it. I heard a song in amovie the other day. It didn't
take multiple playings of thesong to know that this is a song
that brings me alive. You've hadthat happen to you. It might be
(07:41):
your kind of every batter in theMLB when they're playing at
home, they have a walk up songto get them energized. That is
something they connect with. Andeverybody has a different walk
up song. So we all havedifferent formulas for what
connects us. There are certainsimilarities you and I share.
There's certain things that youand I would talk about and say,
oh my god, yeah, that brings meso much connection. And I looked
(08:02):
at it through the lens of fourways that we connect, because
there are really only four weconnect with ourselves, and
that's the primary connection.
It's not selfish to need toconnect with ourselves first to
know who we are, what it is thatwe want, and then it ripples
outwards. And if you can imaginealmost like rippling out.
Circles are like a target. Thesecond circle is connecting to
others that could includeconnecting your significant
(08:25):
other or your friends, yourfamily, your clients, co
workers, whatever co workers,any. And I included pets,
because for many of us, petpeople, they are significant
others in our lives. And thenthe third is how we connect to
the world that could includework, that could include travel,
that could include art or natureor ancestry, and in the fourth
(08:45):
circle, is how we connect tosomething greater. For some
people, for religious people, itcould mean connecting to God.
But for the mostunreligious, perhaps even
profoundly atheist people. Ifthey go to, let's say, Joshua
Tree, or they go to, who knows,Yellowstone or Grand Canyon,
(09:07):
they say, wow. Wow isan indicator that they're
experiencing something greater.
They're experiencing, in alllikelihood, they're experiencing
awe. And one of the things thatwe know about awe is it's very
good for our mental health. It'slike gratitude on steroids, and
if you put someone's into aneuroimaging situation, the
receptors that become activatedin our brain when we're
(09:30):
experiencing awe are the same asthose that are hit on when we
take in psilocybin, thepsychoactive chemical for magic
mushrooms, but with awe, We cando it without needing to take in
external agent, we can just getit ourselves, and we can get it
anytime. So I looked at thosefour ways that we connect, and
(09:50):
what I know for sure is, andthere are very few things I can
say I know for sure is that weneed to have quota. We need to
meet quota around connection inthe.
Four areas. And I don't tellthem where to find it, but I
basically tell them, these arethe things that you're going to
be looking for as you go on thequest to figure out your own
(10:11):
connection formula. Yeah, when Iwas like reading it, I was kind
of, I was, there's a lot of methinking about the order of
them, of like connection toself, like spirits, like in
there, or under the hood, orit's like the self kind of comes
out of, out of spirit, orspiritual, and it, as you were
describing, just came to me thatit's, it's really like, I'd
rather put these, I'd put thesein a circle where it's like, you
(10:32):
know, self leads, you know,spirit can lead to self, can
lead to others, can lead to theworld, can lead to spirit can
lead to this. Like they're allThey're all interconnected.
Like, there really isn't like,one more important than the
other. I will say I do thinkthat, like the spirit and the
self, I think actually are theare the most important to
actually know if these, ifthese, the world and the other
(10:53):
people are working for us.
Otherwise, again, it's likethings kind of get inverted. And
it's like maybe it's become anattachment, not a connection by
your by your healthy definition,yeah, so I might see it just a
little differently. Oh, it'salmost like we're two blind men
touching an elephant each of us,you know, grasping at different
parts. But the way I see it isconnection to ourself is
(11:14):
primary. And one of the things Iknow for sure is that people do
need people so others are veryimportant. The question is, Who
are the others that we shouldallow in our lives, and who are
the others that maybe we shouldminimize or actually block?
And how do we connect withothers? How do we do it in a
(11:35):
meaningful way? One of thethings that we were not taught
in school, very sadly, is how toconnect well with another
person, there's a great quotethat was conveyed to me by a
colleague of mine, andapparently is attributed to a
great British psychoanalyst,Donald wenckott, who apparently
said something akin to truepsychological health can be
exhibited by one's willingnessto share their own experience
(11:57):
with another and the ability totake in The experience of
another. So a good upload anddownload, and that's not
something we're taught inschool. And yeah, connecting
with the world. I mean, whenwe're thinking about our jobs, I
mean one of the two things thatpeople talk about most in my
office, if it was Family Feud,our number one answer would be
love. The next one would be thejob. Those are the two things
(12:18):
that take up most of our time.
In fact, who we marry, if we getmarried, or who's our
significant other, and who wereport to at work are our most
significant others in terms ofthe amount of time that we spend
with people, and we betterchoose wisely and find good
ways, good strategies, toconnect with those folks. I can
tell you're a very spiritualperson because you gravitated
(12:41):
immediately toward the fourthrealm. And it doesn't
necessarily mean that they haveto be in any particular
sequence, but that's just how Iimagine them. And most many
people have validated it. Butwhat you're saying isn't is
equally valid. You grab,gravitate towards self and
spiritual and less towardsothers in the world. The world.
(13:01):
But that really speaks to,really the way you look at this
Rorschach, so to speak, andthis, this basically tells me,
hey, yeah, this is what, this iswhat Justin's into we talk in a
couple years. And maybe it's,maybe it's shit Exactly,
exactly, because I am, actually,I am at, I am very interested in
and other people at this. Like,it's because it is one of those,
(13:25):
like, there's been a big periodof me sort of, like, disc
disconnecting from people thatwere not, like, a good match.
And I really try to see it as,like, it's not like that.
They're they're bad people. It'sjust they're not, they're not
the best, they're not nourishingfor me, what, you know, where
I'm at or where I'm going, butit's like, you know, it's like,
I'm now divorced, you know, it'slike I've had, well, my mother's
now passed, but it's like, withboth of my parents, there were
(13:47):
times where I was like, Okay, Ican't talk to you, and now I
can't talk to you, and I'm like,Okay, it's time for me to make
some friends. It's time to makesome friends. That's been a
focus of, like, a couple weeks,and it's already started to,
like shift, or just people arestarting to come in. And I think
a little bit, I think helpingyour book, but I know that's one
of your TED talks, is makingfriends as an adult. And I
really would kind of love tohear, you know, maybe some of
(14:09):
the things of like, just, yeah,what are some ways to make it
more productive or useful?
Because I, you know, it's like,I look back and it's like a lot
of friend making is just basedon, like, convenience, or you're
just thrust together, and justkind of happens in some ways,
especially in, like, a largercity, where it's like we almost
(14:30):
have so much choice. Sometimes,I know there's some something of
that, or more choice actuallydoesn't make you happier.
Sometimes it's like diminishingreturns of
it's like, okay, I don't need8000 types of yogurt. I just, I
just want to choose betweenthree and sometimes, like, well,
then I just want to have yogurtif there's too many choices.
But yeah, I'd love to hear youryour thoughts of, you know, of
(14:53):
what you've what you've learnedon adults making quality
friendships. Yeah. So the waythis TEDx talk.
Hit me in the ass, so to speak.
To borrow from what I saidearlier, is I had been working
with so many incrediblyfriendable People who said to
me, my gosh, you know, I wasborn in Ohio, I went to school
in New York, then I went myfirst job in Texas, and now I'm
(15:14):
living here in Silicon Valley.
And in each of those places, Ihad friends, and I swore I would
stay in touch with them, but Ididn't. Now I've got kids, and
I've kind of become friends withthe parents of my kids friends,
and they're not necessarily thepeople I would choose as my
friends, but we have some typeof relationship. They're the
(15:35):
closer friends or acquaintancemore of circumstance than of
exactly nourishing you on allthe levels you would like to get
checked in a Yeah. And one ofthe things that Esther Perel
talks about, she's one of thegreat couple therapists, is that
back in the day, not very longago, in the history of time, we
used to live in villages wherewe had multiple people serving
(15:56):
different roles. We hadsomebody, we'd hunt with
somebody. We'd fish withsomebody. We'd build things with
somebody, we'd knit withsomebody fill in the blank, and
now we rely on our spouses, oursignificant others, to fill all
of the roles of all of thepeople in the village. And
that's way too much weight.
Yeah, like they're not even justthe perfect, the perfect lover
partners. They're also, they'realso the best friend too, right?
(16:19):
Like that. It's like, it'severything, it's it's, right?
And I see dune over yourshoulder. If I I've watched dune
with my son, I love the movie,and I know for a fact my wife
would not enjoy that movie. Andif I needed to lean on her to be
the person to watch that moviewith me, we would both be
miserable. She would be unhappy,and I would feel her, you notice
that, and I will not watch theGolden State Warriors with her.
(16:40):
That's just not her that's justnot her jam. She fills so many
great roles. She's the greatesthuman being I've ever known, and
yet she cannot be all of thethings no one can. So we do need
friends for different things,and I like thinking of friends
as being superheroes withsuperpowers and limitations. I
love that spider man can spinthe hell out of a web, but he's
(17:02):
not going to be able to fly likeSuperman. And I may have a
friend that I watch sports withwith, but I wouldn't rely on him
for my emotional needs. Andthere might be a friend with
whom I talk about really highlevel, brainy stuff, but would
definitely not be the guy Iwould call on when I'm going to
be moving to a new place in theHey dude, could you help me
(17:22):
move? So each friend hasdifferent superpowers and
limitations. We need toappreciate them for who they
are. And as you said earlier,sometimes it's not a match. They
might be great people, but thechemical combination isn't
there, and it's a reflection onthem being bad people. It's just
a question of, how do ourchemicals really interact? Is
it? Is it? Is it alive? And Ihave a thing that I call the
(17:48):
drive away test, and that is,after sitting with a person, how
do you feel as you're drivingaway or leaving the interaction?
Do you feel taller? Do you feelhappier, or do you feel smaller?
Do you feel exhausted? And theseare important things to listen
to in terms of ascertaining howwe will allocate our time. Our
time is our one non renewableresource. We can lose our health
(18:10):
and get it back. We can lose ourmoney and get it back. We can't
lose our time and get it back.
And so how we allocate time forfriends is very important, and
how we choose friends is veryimportant. And as you said
earlier, your ideas of thingsmay change in the next few
years, as might your prioritiesfor friendship. I remember when
I was a little boy, all that Ineeded was, you know, a
(18:31):
heartbeat and somebody with aball who lived next door and
knock on the door and say, Let'sgo throw a ball. I have a
friend. As I got older, it was aquestion of, do they have social
interests that are similar tome, or academic interests that
are similar to and then, overtime, I really cared about,
truly about integrity andreliability and the, you know,
(18:53):
somebody who made me a betterperson and who I felt made me a
better person, these are notthings I want to think about
when I was eight years old. Oh,yeah. Or, let alone in high
school. In high school, youknow, I just wanted cool people
to hang with, and that's fairlynormal. And as we get older, our
needs for friendship, thefilters, so to speak, that we're
(19:14):
looking for, do tend to change.
And the problem is we all are sobusy. I mean, who has time to
find friends or make friends?
And I would say we all need todo that. And the way we can do
it is we can couple it withsomething we already like doing.
We can go to a meetup and go toon a hike. Worst case scenario,
we drive home after having had agreat hike. Bestse scenario, you
(19:35):
meet somebody really cool whoalso likes hiking, and you have
an incredible conversation andthe start of a beautiful
friendship. So there are manyways to make friends. I
personally have found having adog to be one of the best things
you can have. As soon as youwalk through the neighborhood,
people will engage you. Peoplewill not engage you if you don't
have a dog. Very, very unlikely.
There are actual psychologicalstudies, sociological studies,
(19:56):
that show that some of.
Who's walking a dog is far morelikely to be engaged in person
who's not walking a dog. Andafter my first dog died, one of
the things I did in my owngrieving process was I made a
list of all of the people my dogintroduced me to, many of whom
are dear friends, one of whomgot me my first TED Talk. So all
(20:16):
I can tell you is, there are,there are ways to make friends.
We need them. Even the mostintroverted amongst us needs to
have a friend. There's so manygreat things. One cool thing is,
like, do something that you'reyou're gonna enjoy doing. You
know, whether you make a friendthere or not, right? You know,
it's like, I'm thinking back tosome bad advice, I think,
especially like earlier on, mylate 20s, early 30s and single I
(20:39):
was like, oh, you know, go meet,go meet women at these, you
know, social kickball, likesports, sports ball stuff. I
don't, I don't really likesports. And I'm just like, No
thank you. And they're like, andsomebody's like, and I told the
person this, and like, oh, well,a lot of women go there and they
don't like sports either. AndI'm like, this does not sound
like the good baby, that's notyour recipe.
(21:01):
But, yeah, I love that. JustJust go where you're going to
enjoy the activity, but there'sother people there too, because
it's like, if there's if you'renot leaving the house and you're
not being around other people,there's close to zero chance.
And then I think the other thingthat I really, really picked up
on from you is it sounds like,when you find something that
like, you like about a personlike, let that one thing be
(21:23):
enough to just keep interactingwith them and drop any
expectation of getting thewhole, you know, having your
whole 100 point list of whatmakes my best friend thing. Just
like, if you just enjoy dancing,just go do more dancing with
them. If you're just like, youknow, talking about sports, just
talk sports. And maybe there'llbe more. Maybe not. Is that? Is
(21:43):
that something I'm picking upthat? I mean, there are no hard
and fast rules. The probably, ifthere were a hard and fast rule,
make sure you're not withsomebody who diminishes you.
Wants you to be smaller. We wantpeople. I mean, there's this
great, well, that's, that'syour, your driveway test part,
right? Part of the drivewaytest. The other thing is, I love
that scene in Good Will Huntingwhere the Ben Affleck character,
(22:07):
who is from Southie, Boston,looks at the Matt Damon
character and says, I don't wantto see you back here in Southie.
I love you too much for you tohave a diminished life. Many
friends, when they hear thattheir friend will be doing
something big and bold areafraid of abandonment, and you
want somebody who's going tocheer for you to become the best
person you can be. You wantsomebody who's going to cheer
(22:29):
you to be in the bestrelationship you can be in and
find the best career, orwhatever is true for your life.
You want somebody who's acheerleader, so irrespective of
their superpowers, you wantsomebody who doesn't diminish
you, but you want somebody whogrows you and who you also grow.
You want it to be a beautifulback and forth in that way,
regardless of the shared bond. Iagree with you on this, and I'll
(22:51):
take it a step further, and youmight disagree with this, but I
kind of believe that the onlything worse than having, you
know, no friends or noconnections, is having like,
these sort of like bullshitfriends, bullshit that are
diminishing, keeping you small.
You know, even they might saythat, but less like draining
you, killing you. And I hadthese friends like, you know,
it's often in school and earlyon in work where, and it's just
(23:13):
like, well, I guess it could beworse. I could be here alone, or
I could be sitting with withthese other people that are
even, even worse, but it's likeI'm getting older, but am I Am I
growing? Am I learning? Am Ivibrant? So it's like I've kind
of gone through a process of,like, clearing the deck in a lot
of ways. And just like, it's gotto be of a certain level,
otherwise, I'm I'd rather justconnect with myself absolutely.
(23:33):
You don't want to be extortedinto hanging out with people
because you're lonely andhanging out with people who
diminish you. Jim Rohn, a greatthinker years ago, once said he
was amazing, and he said, youbecome the average of the five
people with whom you spend themost time. And I think that's
true. We do become the average.
So choosing them carefully. Do Iwant to be like this person? Are
(23:55):
they? Are they people who bringout my best? Are they people who
I bring out their best? Is it?
Is their mutuality is theirreciprocity here. And if there
isn't, I would say gettingcomfortable with solo activities
is really, really important, sothat you are not solely, you
know, at the behest of beingwith people who aren't good for
you. Yeah, and as someone whodoes it a lot, and I think it
(24:17):
sounds like you've, you did it alot in the past. Like, it's
like, I love going to a movie bymyself myself, or traveling by
myself, and I love doing thosewith people. When it's people,
like, I that want to do thatactivity with me, and we want to
share in it. But sometimes just,like, I just, I just want to
watch this movie, and I justwant to watch it,
(24:40):
and yeah, and I don't have todebate with somebody, and it can
be very empowering, just like,I'm gonna do what I want when I
want, for a little chunk oftime. I don't have you ever
heard of the book The artistsway, for sure, was it, yeah,
very informative for so manypeople. Yeah. One of the things
she talks about is having thisartist date, and it's all just
like, do one activity a week.
That's just all by yourself, sothat your inner artist can just
(25:04):
play, do whatever it wants, buthaving to worry about what
somebody else is going to do, Icouldn't agree more. I think
it's genius. And yeah, I mean,it's not the quantity of
friends, it's the quality offriends that really matter. That
sounds almost corny at thispoint, but it's really true. I
remember meeting somebody, andshe said, Oh, and I had a party,
and I invited 100 of my closestfriends. And I was thinking,
(25:26):
Yeah, I don't know that you canbe super, super close with 100
people, but fantastic. That'syour experience way back in
college. I remember I but forsome reason that left an
impression on me, and it seemedlike a bit far fetched. I think
that if we're going to haveclose friends, we want to have
want to have, you know, I thinkthat paring down and having a
reasonable number and people whoshow up and people who are truly
(25:51):
reliable and kind, these are,these are qualities we're
looking for. Yeah, and I'll,maybe, I'll give it to this
person that maybe, maybe theircapacity of depth of relating.
Maybe those were genuinely the100 closest, because there's,
you know, not much capacity toget too deep. I like, I like
your take on that, Justin again,not someone I would want to be,
(26:14):
you know, a friend probably atthis point in my life. But you
know, again, I don't have to befriends with everyone. I love
that. I love that. I love that,and you've caused me to see it
differently just now, and you'veactually changed my mind, and
now I've actually seen it asmaybe that's her superpower,
maybe that's her neuraldifference. Why not? But that
certainly didn't, it didn't, Ican say it didn't resonate with
(26:36):
me, but maybe it was entirelytrue. Who knows?
Because, like, I'm sure, I'msure you've probably run into
some of these people here in theBay Area, the Silicon Valley,
with all the tech stuff. Like,maybe even heard like, there was
this event. Was it just lastFriday called, like, the the
quarter century Giga party.
(26:57):
It was insane. And it was like,you know, a bunch of the top VCs
were sponsoring it, and it waslike 1000s of people at the San
Francisco nightclub. And it'slike, I kind of know the woman
who, you know, hosted it andcoordinated it, because I think
I sort of met her when she firststarted, like, doing event
organization and stuff likethat. And it's like, so to get
an event where she has 3000people showing up, it's like she
(27:19):
must have a list of 20, 50,000people, or whatever, and, you
know? And I was just like, thisis not this is not me. This is
not like a but she's incredibleat it. And it's like, you know,
glad there's some people thatcan do that stuff, because it's
not me. And, yeah, it was aspectacle to attend and see this
thing. And that's interesting,as you say, that Justin, it
(27:40):
calls to mind a title of a greatbook from Milan Kundera. The
Unbearable Lightness of Being,it feels like it just wouldn't
be, for me, substantial enough.
I want to have some really,really deep conversations, deep
relationships. So for me, lessis more. But perhaps for this
individual, that's what feedsthem, and that's what's so
interesting about the whole ideaof the whole idea of the
(28:01):
connection formula, perhaps forthis individual, that's as much
closeness as she needs. So whoam I to say? All I can say is,
we will be born and we will die,and what we do in the middle
matters. And if that is hertruth, and it might be that her
truth changes in five years,just as you and I are talking
about, we don't know, yeah, somaybe that she does it like a
180 and says, You know what, Ijust want to hang out with my
(28:25):
five closest friends. So whoknows what happens? Yeah,
because in some ways I feel likelife, you know, this middle, you
know, between birth and death.
It's just, it's a series ofgames, and we get to choose what
we want to play. And there'sreally no game better or worse
than the other. You know, thegame of like, Can I have a party
of 3000 people, or can I havethe most in depth with one soul,
(28:49):
you know, for my entirelifetime, you know, which would
I guess would be, you know, areally good, you know,
monogamous marriage to whateverthat person would be, you know,
and then everything in between.
And it's like, that's right? Andthen you're also talking about
the idea of social comparison inJomo. One of the things that I
know for sure is that when wecompare ourselves to others, it
tends to go badly. We need tocompare ourselves to ourselves,
(29:12):
get in touch with who we are andwhat we want. And I also know
that FOMO is, you know, it'ssomething that's part of our the
human condition. PatrickMcGinnis, the guy who actually
coined the term, has been on mypodcast. He wrote a book called
FOMO Sapiens, which I foundhilarious, and it's just really
brilliant. But yeah, on onSunday night, I was supposed to
(29:32):
go see a comedian I reallyliked, and I My sister just told
me it was epic. And I on Sundaynight, I realized, will you
share who it was that you wantedto see? It was Alex Moffat from
Saturday Night Live. And I lovehim. He's just, I think he's
brilliant. And he was playing ata relatively small venue. I
(29:53):
bought the tickets, and onSunday night, I really got clear
a I was.
Exhausted and be I just wantedto be with my wife and son.
Yeah, I was willing to foregothe money. It was a loss
financially, but I experiencedwhat one of my friends refers to
as Jomo, the joy of missing out.
Yeah, well, because I starteddoing this a few times the past
(30:17):
past year or two as well. And mymost recent was, like, was a was
for, like, a guar concert. Doyou ever? Do you remember guar?
They would dress up as, like,aliens, and it's like hardcore
metal, but it's like satirical,and that, like, they'll, you
know, it's like, they'll mock,you know, chop a guy's head off,
and, like, fake blood willspread out all over the it's
(30:40):
ridiculous and nonsense. Andlike, I saw them in high school,
yeah? And apparently they'restill around. I think it's
because they wear costumes. Theykind of, I think some of the
guys have died, but theyreplaced them, yeah, which they
can because the costumes, yeah?
But it was like, I wasn'tfeeling well, and I'm just like,
I'm not gonna go because I'm notfeeling I'm not feeling well,
(31:01):
and that it's like a feeling ofwealth, like, kind of came up in
me. I was just like, oh, I canreally do what feels best for me
now. Yeah, that right, there wasconnection with self from where
I sit. That's amazing. And yousaid, You know what? Yeah, I'm
gonna listen. So one of things Iknow for sure is that when we're
not connected to ourselves, it'sas if we have a massive head
(31:24):
cold, or we have a bunch ofrocks in our shoe. How well do
we connect with somebody if wehave a massive head cold, how
well do we connect withourselves when we I mean, all we
can think about is this massivehead cold, and they just can't
wait for it to go away. Insertwhatever physiological, physical
thing that is superuncomfortable for you. It might
not be a kid Ed cold. It might,you know, being poked with with
(31:47):
it, with a thumbtack. I don'tknow what it is, but all I can
tell you is, when we are inpain, it's a kid not being
connected to ourselves, becauseoftentimes we become what's
called Alexa thymic. We're outof touch with our emotions. We
don't know what our emotionsare. They become estranged from
us, and we need if I was to sayto you, I mean, some people
would say emotions are useless,whatever. They're not for me.
(32:09):
And I'd say, fantastic. Hey, youknow what can I have the keys to
your car? And they'd say, why?
And I say, I'm just doing anexperiment. Just Just trust me.
So I go to their car and I put awhole bunch of black electrical
tape all over their dashboard,and I say, fantastic. All right
now go ahead and drive around,and they'll say, Are you high?
Like, what? What did you do tomy dashboard? And I said, Well,
that's basically what you'redoing with your emotions. Your
emotions are meant to be data.
(32:32):
Not all of them are meaningful,and feelings are not facts,
yeah, but we do need to leaninto them and figure out a
better way to relate to ouremotions, because sometimes
they're directives. Sometimesthey're directives to say, You
know what, I'm not going to gosee guar I'm not going to go see
this comedian, or I need to, inspite of the fact that this is
terrifying, sometimes we becomesmart enough and say, and the
(32:54):
emotion is there, I'm stillgoing to do the thing, because
it's a target behavior. But Iface the fear, and I do it
anyway. And the fear, if we alsoknow that having fear is a
precursor for courage, if we'redoing the target thing, of
course not, if we're doingsomething reckless or like, you
(33:14):
know what, I'm scared? Yeah,there's appropriate there's
appropriate fear. Like, all of asudden, if there's a bangle
Tiger. It's like, I is somefears. That's how that's that's
healthy. It's like, what is abangle Tiger doing, doing in San
Jose? This is, this is somethingnot this is out of the normal,
but anything else, it's like,we're probably going to be fine
for the most part, and yet. Andto your point, yeah. And with
(33:35):
the 24 hour news cycle andsocial media, everything seems
urgent, everything seemsterrifying. Everything has
massive implications, or so wethink, because what they're
doing is they're hoping to geteyeball eyeballs, if it bleeds,
it leads, and we need to getbetter at doing is deciphering,
huh? Is this truly a crisis, orare they blowing things out of
proportion? To get my attention?
That's just about, it's like,what's like, what's, what's the
(33:58):
product, oh, it's, it'sadvertising, and I'm the
product, and it's like, it's100% they're trying to hijack
your eyeballs to just, yeah, andI think that's one of the I
would call that as like, healthydisconnection, is how to
cultivate or cut off your feedon social media and or the news
totally. And the word hijack isperfect Justin, because the part
of our brain that's responsiblefor fear and anger resides in
(34:21):
our emotional centers of thelimbic system, which is known as
the amygdala. The amygdala isthis almond shaped piece that's
in our brain on both sides, andit's there ostensibly to protect
us, but these days, it canhijack our our prefrontal
cortex, the place where we doplanning and really good
decision making and analysis,and it can hijack our abilities
(34:43):
to really think. So if we arebombarding ourselves with
fearful stuff on social media,we might not be thinking at our
best. We might get angry andscared, say something that we
can't take back, do somethingthat we can't undo. So.
So in many cases, this fear,also known as the can be related
(35:04):
to the negativity bias, whichmeans that if we hear a rustling
in the leaves, we imagine it's aBengal tiger. When in Pacifica
or in Silicon Valley, where Iam, it's probably a squirrel.
Oh, yeah, yeah. I love thatanalogy of ignoring your
emotions is like ignoring, youknow, everything going on in the
instrument panel. I am curioushow many people have many people
have died because of yourexperiment, but I think, so far,
(35:25):
nobody's done it, and I've notdone it with anybody. It's
merely a thought experiment.
It's all in the day. It's all inthe name of self improvement.
AndI'm sure, I'm sure this might be
something that you comes up alot, because then, you know,
working with Silicon Valley Techpeople, there's and, you know, I
worked at a company that wasreally big on we're a data
driven company, and it's that'sjust like, the biggest, the
(35:46):
biggest lie, because, becausehumans are emotion driven period
in the story, because we'realways choosing what data we're
going to allow in and toentertain. I saw it so many
times where it's like, wait, youhave a better relationship with
this person. So you, you youweigh their data more than the
other, even though the other isactually, from an objective
(36:06):
standpoint, has higher quality,did more in depth and all these
other things. But there's alittle bit of like, Yeah, So
Justin, you're talking aboutcognitive biases. And there's,
there are about 200 of them, andwe can, for example, newscasters
who are really attractive, wetend to believe they're smarter
and more credible becausethey're good looking than
somebody who would be less goodlooking and who actually may be
(36:29):
more credible and moreintelligent. And that's called,
you know, the halo effect.
There's so many suggestinAnderson Cooper
isn't true. He's got all of he'sgot all, he's got all, he's got
all of the things. He's amazing.
He's good looking, okay? Hetends to be accurate. I'm not
saying he throws a strike everytime, but I would say he's one
(36:50):
of the more credible people,although I'm leaving my lane,
but what? But I'm not, yeah, Ilove, I love you some. Anderson
Cooper, he's great, yeah, whatI'm driving at here is,
to your point, we are emotionalbeings, and emotions are
coursing through us all day,every day, all the time, whether
aware of them are not. AndAnthony Damasio, out of MIT
(37:13):
actually has found that if youremove the emotional centers of
the brain, that brain cannotmake decisions, because emotions
are always a factor in ourdecision making processes, for
better or for worse. But themore we become in relationship
with those emotions and are ableto figure out, hey, is this, is
this real, or is this, is thisjust my fear limiting me? I
think it's like, clearly justfrom that you can't it's like
(37:36):
emotions are a point, are animportant part. And I think I
might almost argue that that theemotional experience is, is the
point of the human experience.
It is like, what is theemotional journey like you get
to go on like it's, you know,and the connection is part of
that, you know, it's the it'sthe anticipation, the
excitement, the joy, the love,and then even the the loss like
(37:56):
that. You know, some people cango a long time without
experience with that experiencewith people, but it's like you
get in the world of of pets, andit's like it's likely going to
happen a lot sooner. And thatwas one of the stories I really
did love from your book, was thestory of how you got your first
first cat. Because I had, like,a very similar experience to
having a cat foisted upon mewhen I was living with the woman
(38:18):
that she was a girlfriend at thetime, and we eventually got
married, but it was one day Iwas like, we're getting a cat.
You're either coming along ornot. And you know, this orange,
orange fluff ball Julius getsput in my lap, and it's just
like, god damn it, I guess fine.
And that's, yeah, and you'reactually looking at the box over
my right shoulder is are theremains of my very first cat.
(38:40):
He's always in my office. I he'sbeen so instructed. His name was
Yoda. It was appropriate for hewas a Yoda. He was actually a
teacher that cat, right? He wasand he was treated by a
Veterinary Oncologist rightthere in Pacifica. But, yeah,
we're chasing feelings, is whatwe're chasing in this lifetime.
To your point, you got it right.
I believe that's what we'rerunning after. Is an experience,
(39:01):
a felt experience when we listento music, if it's just an
intellectual experience, I wouldsay it the music has, at least
in my case, it would not havereached me fully. I wanted to
hit my emotions as well. I canlook at the technician and say,
wow, they technically, what agreat musician, but I really
(39:22):
want the emotional experience oflike, wow, that music really
does something to me. And thetitle super psyched does not
mean super happy all the time.
It means super connected to ourpsyches that we are when we are
feeling happy, we own thehappiness and the joy when we're
feeling grief stricken we are,we are able to leverage that as
(39:46):
well. So irrespective of thething that we are able to embody
it and be connected. Yeah, Ilove that, because it's like one
of these things I've been, youknow, learning more and more
through practices like the thejoy of living.
Isn't that you feel joy, happyall the time, it's that even in
the you know, the depressed, thesad, the grief, the anger, the
(40:08):
whatever, there's a partrecognizing this is part of the
human experience, and then whenyou're conscious of it, of like
and this is part of me, learningdepth and getting clear on maybe
what's the next emotionalexperience I want to go through,
that there becomes an aspect ofjoy to that even in those you
know, what we would usuallyconsider shitty moments? Well,
(40:31):
we do need those so calledshitty moments, yeah, because
they happen no matter how wellthings go in life. And they do
become a basis of comparison aswell. Like, part of the joy is,
wow. I have a basis ofcomparison. I know what I know
joy because I also know. I knowI know loss. My losses have
allowed so much more joys in mylife that it's like, when I was
(40:53):
at, you know, before and in themiddle of it, I never would have
thought. And you always hear ofpeople like, Oh, I'm so but
it's, it's true. It's like, oh,these, these grieving moments,
have been the greatest, thegreatest gifts of my entire
lifetime. And it really is. It'slike, how do you go through it?
And it's like, it doesn'tnecessarily have to be, it
doesn't have to be as hard,especially when you're
connected. The more connection,the easier it is for all of
(41:14):
these things. And so that's why,you know, working with someone
like you, or having the book, orhaving friends, or having, you
know, pets or nature orconnection to spirit. That's
what makes all of these, youknow, downs actually don't have
to feel like as down when we'rewhen we really feel alone or
with people diminishing us.
Then, then it's just, it's, canbe almost unbearable at times.
(41:34):
And it's when I've had timeswhen it's like, Oh, I get. I get
some people that, you know, whenthey when they do take their
lives, like, I get, I get thethe drive. For me, it's always
just been like, I don't know,I'm still, there's a little bit
of I'm hopeful that there'ssomething's going to happen.
There's a little bit of like,why should I have to do more
work than I've already done?
But Well, I mean, I can'tcomment on all of that, but one
(41:56):
thing I can say is that when wethink about depression, it is
basically hopelessness timesthree, according to Aaron Beck,
who's one of the foundingfathers of cognitive behavioral
therapy, and what he found isthat it's hopelessness about
self future in the world. Andone of the things that
(42:18):
can possibly attend to a senseof hopelessness is finding a way
to healthfully connect, andthat's really what I'm hoping to
help people do with this book,is to find what is true for
them, how they can connect tosomething that is empowering and
allow them to feel more vitalitythroughout life, rather than
(42:39):
That hopelessness. And many ofus were born with genes that are
more likely to render usdepressed or anxious. But one
thing I know from Sonia lugarmercies work is that we have a
lot more and in our controlthrough intentional behaviors,
about 50% of our happiness,according to her replicable
(43:03):
studies, are attributable togenes. About 10%
are about our currentsituations, and 40% are within
our control through intentionalactions. And the 40% is actually
a nice, a nice chunk of the pie,if you think about it, and
that's what this book is aimingto attend to, the 40%
(43:24):
that we have control of, yeah,which is huge, especially kind
of considering that, I think alot of times we think that,
like, oh, you only get, like,one flip of the coin or one spin
of the wheel, but really we'respinning that wheel non stop. So
if you get to own 40% of theroulette wheel, you're going to
be a winner a lot more often,right? Well, Justin, it's been
(43:45):
amazing to be with you. Oh yeah.
I was going to say, like, it'stime to write, like, any
last words, last words are that?
Yeah. I hope you check out thebook. I hope it speaks to you in
some way. And that, what I foundis that if we can attend to one
area at a time, I do love theaxiom, chase two rabbits. Get
neither. So maybe do one thingat a time from the book, and I
(44:10):
use it as a guide. And if youwant to hit me up, As Justin
mentioned, I'm I've got a fairlylarge web presence. I'm here in
San Jose, dr, Adam dorsey.com,and love to hear from you.
Yeah. Thanks so much, Adam. Andyeah, I already I got motivated
from reading your book to goback to to Toastmasters. I did
(44:33):
my first suite right on, youknow, in like six years last
week, and it was so much fun andgreat people. And so it really
does have a lot of goodresources, ideas to get the
connection, the connectionsgoing in the healthy, fulfilling
way that we all want. Sodefinitely go check out super
psyched at Amazon and all theother places you buy your books.
(44:54):
And also, Adam's got the superpsyched podcast. And then Dr
Adam Dorsey.
Dot com, where you can get allthe amazing stuff,
kind of TED Talks and all that.
So thanks so much. Adam, goodchatting and good day everybody.
Thanks for tuning in toengineering emotions and energy
with Justin Wenck PhD. Today'sepisode resonated with you.
(45:15):
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