December 26, 2024 • 56 mins
On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, we meet with Brian Lee. Brian is a pastor, coach, and speaker. As a survivor of spiritual abuse and religious trauma, he has spent his time since leaving vocational ministry in 2021 working to provide recovery and resources for fellow victims and survivors. In 2023, he created and founded Broken to Beloved, a nonprofit organization that exists to help other victims and survivors through its Annual Summit and seasonal Cohorts, while also providing trauma awareness and safeguarding practices to pastors, leaders and churches.
🔗 Connect with Brian Lee
💻 https://www.brokentobeloved.org/
📷 Instagram: @brokentobeloved
🔗 Connect with Steph!
📷 Instagram: @ninetypesco
🎥Youtube: @stephbarronhall
Here are the key takeaways:
- Noticing Type One patterns growing up
- Feeling like a mistake can lead to losing everything
- The Enneagram versus other systems of personality
- Knowing what to do when trauma happens
- What is Broken to Beloved?
- Talking Spiritual Bypass (neglecting psych work) and Toxic Positivity
- How does Brian’s type show up?
- Accessing the arrows to 4 and 7
- Shifting Type One patterns and moving toward transformation
- Working with shame and “worm theology”
- Discussing Brian’s Social Type One experience with the inner critic
- “One” by Sleeping At Last — “grace requires nothing of me.”
- Words for other Type Ones on this inner work journey
- How to connect with Brian
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Tiny Traumas by Meg Arroll
- Internal Family Systems
- “One” by Sleeping At Last
- As Long as You Need: Permission to Grieve by J. S. Park
- It's Not You by Ramani Durvasula PhD
Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life!
Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian (00:01):
the Enneagram was so different because it got
underneath all of that and itsaid, this is why you do what
you do.
And then that for me changedeverything because once I got
underneath the behaviors to themotivations and recognized, it's
not just that you treat peoplethis way or that you have
perfectionist tendencies or thatyou show up and you tend to
(00:22):
withdraw in this, you know,whatever it is, it was like you
do all these things because youhave a need for.
Or because you're chasing afterthis thing or because you're
struggling with.
And I was just like, that makesso much more sense.
And it helped me to become like,it was a quantum leap in
awareness of uncovering andgetting to the root of all of
(00:43):
those behaviors for me.
That really just made such ahuge difference.
Welcome to any REM in real life,a podcast where we explore how
to apply our Instagram knowledgein our daily lives.
I'm your host Steph Barron hall.
And on today's episode, I amtalking with Brian Lee.
(01:04):
Brian is a pastor, coach andspeaker, and as a survival of
spiritual abuse and religioustrauma, he's spent his time
since leaving vocationalministry in 2021, working to
provide recovery and resources.
We're fellow victims andsurvivors.
In 2023, he created and founded,broken to beloved a nonprofit
organization that exists to helpother victims and survivors
(01:25):
through its annual summit andseasonal cohorts.
While also providing traumaawareness and safeguarding
practices to pastors, leadersand churches.
You can connect with Brian atbroken to beloved.org or at
broken to beloved on Instagram.
And of course, as always, thoselinks will be in the show notes.
So on today's episode, I reallyappreciated my opportunity to
(01:46):
talk with Brian about what it'slike to be a type one and how he
saw those patterns showing up inhis life, growing up and feeling
like one singular mistake canlead to losing everything and.
I'm not a type one, but I sharea little bit of similarity in
our upbringing with Brian.
So, I really resonated with thatdescription.
(02:06):
And so I really appreciated himbringing that to light.
And he talked a little bit aboutwhy he chose the Instagram
versus some of the other systemsthat he's very familiar with.
We also talked about some of thedamaging practices that we've
both witnessed, um, being a partof religious spaces and how
sometimes spiritual bypass,which is neglecting
psychological work, and optingonly for like spiritual
(02:28):
understanding and then teaching.
And toxic positivity, bothperpetuate harmful and abusive
spaces, especially when those inpower are not willing to look at
their own shortcomings.
Brian also talks about a littlebit of how he sees type four and
type seven, which are his arrowpoints show up in his life.
And how he's been moving towarda path of transformation through
(02:49):
shifting some of his naturaltype one patterns.
And he still brings his sameawareness and excellence and
integrity to all of the workthat he does now, um, which are
some of those higher type onetraits that we can all
appreciate.
This was a rich conversation.
And as I've discussed before,when I talk with people who are
in these religious spaces,especially talking about really
(03:09):
religious trauma, Um, this isnot an indictment at all against
any one particular religiousbelief.
But more.
So I want to open a conversationup for people who are
questioning and wondering, andhave legitimate concerns about
the way that some leaders usetheir power and also wanting to
bring more awareness to The waythat harm is perpetuated
(03:32):
throughout these spaces whenthere is such a concentration of
power.
So Brian's work is aboutbringing awareness to that as
well as helping us heal.
Through the process of leavingbehind some of those spaces that
were harmful and making surethat we're changing those to
protect people in the future.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Brian Lee.
Steph Barron Hall (03:53):
Well, Brian, welcome to the podcast.
Brian (03:55):
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Steph Barron Hall (03:56):
Of course.
I'm excited to talk with youabout what it's like to be a
one.
Um, so I know that we'll have alot of insights from you today.
Um, but first I'd love to hear alittle bit more about your
background.
What got you started with theEnneagram?
Where do you come from?
Tell us everything.
Brian (04:14):
Where do I come from?
I come from, oh boy, that couldgo back really far.
Uh, I come from an immigrantfamily.
I'm a first generation KoreanAmerican from parents who
immigrated separately, um, fromKorea, met here in the States,
had me and my two sisters, grewup in very rural, suburban, and
racist, uh, So just dealing withthat, basically my entire school
(04:38):
life, ran away to college andnever went back to those
neighborhoods, basically, um,and then spent the rest of my
young adult life trying tofigure out who the heck I am and
where do I fit in?
Right?
So for me, learning theEnneagram was a huge window
window into, Oh, this is why Ido what I do.
I also grew up as a pastor'skid.
(05:00):
Um, In a Korean church, whichtend to be extremely honor
driven, very performanceoriented of appearances mean a
lot.
Um, and so I felt an enormoussense of pressure on my
shoulders to be the perfect kidanyway, so you can already tell
(05:20):
I'm a one.
Um, and to set, and I wasconstantly told that I'm
supposed to set the example forbasically all the other kids in
the church.
That's really fair, right?
Um, and so for me learning aboutthe Enneagram, which wasn't
until I was well into my latethirties, probably, um, having
this incredible aha moment of,Oh, this makes so much more
(05:44):
sense.
And I never realized.
As dumb as it sounds now, butnot everyone sees the world the
way I do, which also makes sensewhen people react to me just
trying to help them and theytell me, Oh, you're so arrogant,
or you think, you know,everything, or why does
everything have to be done yourway?
Um, and for me, it was literallya life changing moment.
(06:08):
Um, I had also been through somereally toxic situations at that
point, and just easy to paintmyself as the victim and other
people's as abusers.
Um, and it gave me a little bitmore empathy and compassion for
them.
It didn't make any of what theydid right.
But I also understood where theywere coming from when they made
the choices they did.
(06:30):
Um, so it has been an incredibletool for me.
Mm-Hmm.
Steph Barron Hall (06:33):
yeah, yeah.
It sounds like it.
And I think, Hearing just evenabout like that desire to help
people and then it feelsdifferent than that from, from
other people.
I think that that's reallyhelpful because I've heard other
ones express that before and howchallenging it can be when you
recognize, Oh, actually peopleare saying that's not helpful.
Brian (06:52):
Yeah.
I, it's, it's gotten me introuble my entire life, because,
you know, my inner critic isconstantly yelling at me and
saying, that should have beenbetter.
And I'm, I'm.
honestly trying to fix thingsand making things better,
genuinely trying to improvethings.
And so it always took me bysurprise when someone doesn't
want that feedback of, Oh, thatwas wrong.
(07:13):
You might want to fix it.
And they take it as you'restupid.
And I just want to point out allyour mistakes.
It's like, no, that's not what Imeant at all.
Steph Barron Hall (07:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What was it like to recognize,Oh, people are taking this
differently.
Brian (07:27):
I made a lot of phone calls and sent a lot of text
messages just to apologize.
was a huge wake up call that noteveryone cares about getting
things right all the time.
I just genuinely had no idea.
I was like, how do you livewithout that kind of pressure?
I didn't know I could do that.
Steph Barron Hall (07:44):
Yeah.
Brian (07:45):
And so it's also been a huge sense of freedom, um, from
my own self imposed weight thatI put on myself, this pressure
that no one asked of me, exceptfor me.
Um, and so, Getting to recognizeand realize that most people
don't care about this, and theydon't even expect it of me, and
(08:09):
there's a room for a lot ofgrace, um, and there's room to
make mistakes, and it's going tobe okay if you make a mistake,
and life will go on, and you'lllearn from it, and it'll be
better.
And that was a real paradigmshift for me in Working and
living and doing relationships,all of the above, because all of
(08:29):
a sudden this huge weight istaken off of your shoulders and
it feels like I can actuallybreathe, um, and not be afraid
that if I make a mistake, I'mgoing to lose everything.
Cause that's really what it feltlike.
Steph Barron Hall (08:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's so anxiety provokingtoo.
And it's like, Oh, it makessense why you're walking around
with so much tension all thetime.
Brian (08:48):
It does.
Yeah, it is anxiety provoking.
And I don't know that I everreally thought of it that way,
but it definitely feels thatway.
Mm
Steph Barron Hall (08:55):
Mm hmm.
Um, I'm curious about, I knowthat you have experience with a
lot of different types of thesesystems, like different
personality type systems.
Um, and I'm wondering if you canshare a little bit about those
and what makes the Enneagramdifferent for you.
Brian (09:10):
Oh, man.
Um, yeah, I got my start withpersonality assessments and all
these kinds of systems, um, incollege when I took the Myers
Briggs.
Which I think most people takewhen they're younger.
Um, so you sit down and you takethat enormous multiple choice
test, and they come back andyour facilitator gives you the
(09:31):
report, and it's like, oh, I'man INTJ.
Well, what the heck does thatmean?
And then you read it, and it'slike, oh, this thing's reading
my mail.
This is cool.
Steph Barron Hall (09:39):
Mm hmm.
Brian (09:39):
And then beyond that, you don't really know what to do
with it.
Except that you travel with thisgroup of people who you took the
test with because you're goingto be on a team together and
then you spend the rest of theyear arguing about what is
introverted mean and what isextroverted mean.
And that was kind of the extentof it, right?
No one wants to agree on whatthese terms mean.
Or now that we have thiscombination of letters, what do
(10:01):
I do with it?
What does it mean for ourinteractions with each other?
Um, And, you know, we sat downfor a good two hours or more
just kind of breaking down.
Okay, so this is what this meansand this is how you're going to
interact.
Okay, cool.
But now what?
Um, but it started me on thiswhole path of, I didn't know I
could learn about myself in thiskind of a way.
(10:22):
And it was a waking up to notjust coasting through life, but
starting to make active choicesthat were a little more
conscious and less personalitydriven.
Um, And then I ended up in twoback to back environments that
were extremely toxic, um, andrecognizing and seeing these
leaders who would leave a wakeof destruction behind them.
(10:47):
And I was often one of thecasualties, which is why I left
both of those places, and kindof making a vow to myself when I
saw their behavior, andrecognize that most of it is
happening because they arecompletely self unaware of their
effect on other people, of howthey treat people.
People or do work.
And so I kind of made a vow tomyself.
(11:07):
It's like, I need to learn asmuch as I can about myself.
So I don't become one of thosekinds of leaders.
And so Myers Briggs, Berkman,Colby, StrengthsFinders, DISC,
I've done most of them and same,it's a combination of letters or
numbers or scores, and you kindof read a little bit, it's like,
(11:28):
okay, yeah, that describes alot.
To the best of my understanding,and I'm not certified in any of
them, so whatever, but they alldescribe what I do.
I, I kind of already know what Ido.
Steph Barron Hall (11:42):
Sure.
Brian (11:42):
And the Enneagram was so different because it got
underneath all of that and itsaid, this is why you do what
you do.
And then that for me changedeverything because once I got
underneath the behaviors to themotivations and recognized, it's
not just that you treat peoplethis way or that you have
perfectionist tendencies or thatyou show up and you tend to
(12:04):
withdraw in this, you know,whatever it is, it was like you
do all these things because youhave a need for.
Or because you're chasing afterthis thing or because you're
struggling with.
And I was just like, that makesso much more sense.
And it helped me to become like,it was a quantum leap in
awareness of uncovering andgetting to the root of all of
(12:25):
those behaviors for me.
That really just made such ahuge difference.
Steph Barron Hall (12:29):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And it really cuts straight tothe heart.
And I think that that can besomething I love about it and
hate about it.
Um, But with what you're sayingabout those work environments
that were so difficult, um, Ithink that's really important to
recognize because, uh, recentlyI had, uh, Dr.
Meg Errol on the podcast.
Her book is called tiny Ttraumas.
(12:50):
And she talked about, um, tiny Ttraumas, like small T traumas.
Why, you know, Things can betraumatic to us and how, and in
her book, she talks a lot abouthow, um, we overemphasize the
role of childhood in, um, traumain our lives.
And sometimes there are othertimes in life that we experience
(13:12):
trauma that is really difficult.
Um, but we overlook it becausewe're like, well, that I was an
adult, like it's fine.
Um, but workplaces like that canhave that impact as well.
Um, and I think that's reallyimportant to give space for.
Brian (13:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's, that's, that's agood point.
That's the nature of trauma, andI don't know that there's a
single one of us who makes ourway through life without
experiencing some kind oftrauma.
So, a lot of the work that I dohas to do with little t and big
T trauma, and the idea that it'snot the fact that you'll ever be
able to avoid it, but do youknow what to do once it happens?
(13:50):
Do you know how to process it ormetabolize it and get it out of
your system so that you don'tcarry it with you for the rest
of your life?
Right.
And for me, the Enneagram wassuch a helpful tool and still is
a helpful tool when I'm, youknow, working with other people
or, you know, doing aconsultation or coaching someone
individually, or doing a teamworkshop.
It's like, if you can becomeaware of all these things that
(14:12):
you carry with you and cutstraight to the heart of the
issue to recognize maybe whywere you traumatized or how were
you traumatized, whether or notit was your fault.
And most of the time.
Trauma is never your fault.
Neither is abuse, right?
It's something that happened toyou, but it is something that
you're going to have to carryand deal with.
So how can you dig underneathall the stuff that you carry
(14:34):
with you everywhere you go andget to the point of the issues
so that you can learn how tomanage it or move through it?
We don't ever get past it or getaround it.
You just have to, you have to gothrough it.
Um, and learning how to do allof those things so that we can
move forward in a more whole andhealthy way.
Steph Barron Hall (14:54):
I'm wondering if you can share a little bit
more about the type of work thatyou do, um, just to give us a
little bit more context forthis, um, so that we can kind of
understand.
Brian (15:04):
Sure.
So I run a nonprofit, uh, 501 C3called Broken to Beloved, and we
specifically focus on offeringresources for recovery,
safeguarding, and awareness ofspiritual abuse, religious
trauma, and church harm, which alot of people just call church
hurt.
Um, and I think that minimizeswhat's actually happened to
people.
(15:25):
So we call it church harm.
Um, you know, there's On gooddays, there's spiritual
malpractice where someone's justnot being smart or wise about
how they say something or dosomething.
And on worst days, it's juststraight out spiritual abuse,
whether it's sexual abuse,emotional, physical, verbal,
financial.
(15:45):
Like there's so many differentversions of how people have been
treated in the church, which issupposedly a place to find
safety and belonging and healingand all these wonderful things
and end up with places.
Usually because there are peoplewho are unaware of themselves,
who are going to use people totheir own advantage and twist or
(16:06):
manipulate, whether it'sscripture or a prayer or
something else, to serve theirown needs rather than to meet
someone else's.
Um, and, you know, I mean, we'vebeen hearing how many stories in
the last couple of years of allthese people in places that are
just doing incredible harm.
Um, so we exist to help peoplecoming out of those spaces.
To find healing and wholeness,uh, we offer cohorts, we run an
(16:29):
annual summit, we do monthlycalls, I do individual coaching,
and then we're also starting tomove into that awareness and
safeguarding space where we gointo churches or meet with teams
to teach them how to becometrauma informed and trauma
aware, set up safeguardingpractices for reporting, for
dealing with, you know, for allthese different things, so.
(16:50):
Mm hmm.
Steph Barron Hall (16:51):
Yeah, it sounds, it's just so necessary.
Um, and I spent most of my lifein, um, various churches and
some healthier than others, ofcourse, um, as churches are.
Um, but In the end, it's peopleare people.
And, um, I think it is reallychallenging when we don't
(17:14):
understand our own motivations.
And something I've just observedin a lot of church spaces is
this, and actually this is inany sort of these types of
communities that's like growthoriented.
Um, there is like the spiritualbypassing aspect where people
aren't doing the psychologicalwork that they need to do, which
in, in my Enneagram training,that's a big part of what we
(17:36):
talk about.
But, um, Doing therapy andspiritual direction or whatever.
So having these things go handin hand.
Um, but these, a lot of the timepastors raised to these high
heights and.
They like, Oh, I don't needtherapy.
I've got Jesus.
And it's like, Whoa,
Brian (17:54):
Mm hmm.
Yep.
Steph Barron Hall (17:55):
let's roll that back for a second.
Brian (17:58):
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (17:59):
How do you navigate that?
Brian (18:04):
Very carefully.
Um, you know, in, in doing thiskind of recovery work or
coaching work or whatever it is,one of the harder lessons that
I've learned is you can't helpanyone who doesn't want it.
And you also can't help anyonewho doesn't recognize that they
need it.
(18:24):
Um, and that's the hardest partwith these pastors or leaders or
people in these spaces who justthink they have it all together
or think that they have all theanswers or think that, um, You
know, you're just grieving oryou're hurting because you're
not praying enough, or youdidn't do this enough or
whatever it is, and that's thatsame spiritual bypassing, like
you're talking about, um, and,or, you know, I use the term
(18:48):
toxic positivity a lot, thatchurches just don't have a
theology of suffering or ofgrief or making space for all
these things that we need toprocess all this stuff that
comes with life.
Right.
Steph Barron Hall (19:01):
Yeah, we do.
And I, um, I've also seensometimes like the, uh, poverty
gospel as opposed to theprosperity gospel, um, where
it's like, if anything's goingwell for you, then you're not
living faithfully.
And that also sucks.
Brian (19:19):
Yeah, it really does.
It really does.
There's just so much that getstwisted.
And I don't know why.
I don't want to try to sit hereand think of a reason why.
It just, that's just whathappens when people are unaware
of themselves and don'trecognize that I'm doing these
things to fulfill my own needsand get my needs met rather than
(19:40):
operating out of a fulfillmentof I'm already So I don't need
my job, my title, mycongregation, these people to
take care of all of this stufffor me, right?
And so that's, again, why theEnneagram has been so helpful
for me is like, my identitydoesn't have to keep shifting
(20:01):
based on the people around me orthe expectations on me or what
my job is.
Should I have to leave it forany reason?
Um, if you can be grounded andknow who you are, man, does that
change the way you do things?
Steph Barron Hall (20:15):
Yeah.
How have, have you seen yourtype show up in the way that you
do all of this work or even injust in your life, um, more
broadly?
Yeah.
Brian (20:27):
what the Enneagram was, my type showed up all the time.
In the worst ways possible.
Um, like we, like I mentionedearlier, it's just all of those
perfectionistic tendencies andthe need to fix in quotes, um,
myself and everyone around meand point out all the mistakes
(20:49):
that are jumping off the page atme.
Um, the constant desire thatwill never be fulfilled to just
reform and improve.
Absolutely everything that Ipossibly can and spend way too
long on a project because thisslide doesn't look right.
And I need to just adjust thisthing by a little bit or pick on
whatever it is.
And then you compound thosethings when you are no longer a
(21:12):
student and now you're working ajob and you have people
reporting to you and you arebeing an absolute a hole because
they didn't meet your standards,which are completely
unrealistic.
Um, and just treating peoplelike trash.
Because they didn't do what younever even asked for, you just
expected it, that they shouldknow, um, and, and recognizing
(21:36):
and coming to terms with thefact that the terms arrogant and
conceited and know it all andjudgmental and overly critical
were all absolutely true.
I mean, that showed up all thetime and, you know, the, the sad
part of it is, As a one thatthat's all being put on me
first, and the only reasonanyone else around me
(21:57):
experiences it is it because itwas an overload and it had to
come out sideways somewhere elsebecause I could no longer carry
it by myself.
And so the way I see it show uptoday, once I learned about my
type and what it meant and how.
I was being perceived and feltby other people around me After
making a lot of amends andapologies.
(22:20):
It's like I was real jerk andI'm very sorry um It's you know,
Suzanne Stabile talks a lotabout the work is never to
repress something because that'sjust really not possible But to
bring up all the other thingsbut we can manage What we
notice, um, so it's a lot moremanagement of those tendencies,
(22:43):
um, and recognizing whensomething is good enough to call
done and it's never going to beperfect.
So when is it good enough tostop working on it?
Having way more grace formyself, which then allows me to
have grace for other people.
It's like, Hey, that's yeah, Iget it.
You tried and you know what?
(23:03):
Your try was good enough.
And let's just leave it at that.
It's let's just call it done.
Um, for me, I primarily work bymyself now, so it's also
learning those healthyconnections to both four and
seven to recognize when I need abreak and just go vent or find
an escape hatch somewhere torecognize when I need to sit
(23:26):
with my feelings for a littlebit.
Or to be able to express thecreativity part of it, rather
than just the structured, Partof life that I tend towards.
Um, it's being a lot moreflexible and less rigid.
And I think that's the gift ofthe Enneagram is once you have
that awareness of yourself torelease yourself from the
(23:50):
expectation that this is whoyou're supposed to be, or it's
who you're condemned to be forthe rest of your life.
Steph Barron Hall (23:55):
Yeah.
Brian (23:57):
It's, Hey, this is the way that you are, because this
is what you're looking for.
And when you realize that youactually already have these
things, you can choose to livereally differently.
And so look at all these otherresources you have around you
with four and seven and nine andtwo, and all these other things
that you could be becausethey're available and they're
(24:18):
right there.
And you don't have to be a jerkall the time.
And you can truly make the worlda better place without all the
extra judgment and shame.
Steph Barron Hall (24:26):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And I think I, I appreciate thatabout the Enneagram too.
It's like, you don't haveconnection to types that are
going to cause you to doubledown on some of those bad
behaviors, like three or eight.
Like I think a lot of the time,I know when I think back of my
early days as a leader and beinglike, well, if you're not
falling over dead at the end ofthe day, you haven't worked hard
(24:47):
yet.
You know, like, That's horrible.
Um, I, I never said that, but Iknow that that's how I felt and
how I thought about things.
Um, and I think now I see thingstotally differently to the point
where my assistant is like, Oh,I'm going to be on vacation.
But like, I'll be, and I'm like,absolutely not.
I better not see you in theinbox.
(25:08):
I better not see,
Brian (25:10):
Mm
Steph Barron Hall (25:11):
you know, um, because I think that's so
important for us to have thatspace.
Um, but it's taken some time andI think it's You know, 1 thing
to do it for somebody else, andthen another thing entirely to
do that for myself.
Right?
Um, but, you know, 9 and 2 don'thave that connection, right?
Where, you know, 9 can't justlike, oh, I'll just like, hang
(25:32):
out over at 2, um, 9's havethose resources that are going
to get them out of thatheadspace of, um, kind of
morphing to be whatever otherpeople want from them.
Um, and I really appreciate thatabout the Enneagram.
And I think that is one of thethings that kind of makes this
system a little bit uniqueversus, you know, some of the
(25:53):
other ones, like you mentionedearlier, like even, um, DISC or
StrengthsFinder, those sorts ofthings.
Um, but I also am curious whatthings changed for you, um,
after you sent those amends, topeople, but how did you, like,
(26:14):
what was it like for you tofirst be like, okay, I'm not
going to do this thing anymore.
I'm not going to do it this way.
Did it take a long time tochange that habit or?
Yeah.
Brian (26:23):
no.
Um, Some of it was justimmediate because I recognized
how much I had been hurting thepeople around me.
With my own expectations.
Um, so that changed prettyquickly.
Um, you know, when you'releading teams of people and
you're just demanding perfectionevery time that is not
(26:46):
sustainable or achievable.
Um, I just went to most, youknow, sometimes you verbalize it
and sometimes you just shift howyou do it.
Um, for a few individuals Iverbalized, it's like, Hey, I
just want you to know, I.
learned this thing and I justrealized that this is the way
I've been doing life and I'vebeen expecting it of everyone
around me and that is wrong andI'm sorry.
(27:08):
Larger teams that don't needthat level of or haven't
experienced that level.
It's just shifting the way thatI communicate expectations.
It's shifting the way that Icommunicate what's necessary
versus what is what would benice.
Right?
Um, Most of it is just melowering my standards, which
(27:31):
sounds awful in some ways, um,but it's just so much more
realistic and it's so much morefreeing and gives so much more
room and margin for a lot ofother things like relationships.
Um, I think that was a big pointof transformation for me was
just in knowing how to dorelationships so much better.
(27:53):
Because when I wasn't stuck inmy way of seeing things and
doing things, and then learningabout the other types, um, you
know, I mentioned I grew up inan immigrant family, and it's
like, when you can learn tocommunicate in someone else's
language, and the way that theysee and hear and think, it
changes a lot.
(28:15):
And so, recognizing it's like,hey, we don't see things the
same way, And not only is thatnot bad, it's actually really
good and necessary for me andfor you, because we're gonna
bring different gifts to thetable.
So, instead of me just tellingyou how I want it done, what
(28:36):
would be helpful to you?
Or, when I come to you withfeedback, what would be more,
like, what would be the mosthelpful way for you to receive
that?
Um, if it's personalrelationships, it's just, again,
recognizing that I don't need toget my way all the time.
And I don't need to be rightabout everything, because most
of the time, it's not importantat all.
(28:57):
And a phrase that my wife useswith me, a lot.
She hasn't said it lately, whichI'm thankful for because she
hasn't needed to, I think.
Um, is just, is that really ahill you want to die on?
And I'm just like, some, everyonce in a while it is, but most
of the time it just doesn'tmatter.
It's like, why, why am I juststicking to this thing?
(29:18):
Why are these principles, thesefake principles that I've made
up so important to me?
That I'm going to bomb arelationship or a friendship
over.
Um, and that kind of arealization is huge.
And I want to go back to whatyou said about why the Enneagram
is so unique and great comparedto some of these other tools.
(29:38):
And I recognize that while youwere saying it is like, when we
have access to these other typesand numbers that normally don't
have a connection.
Um, I think that is anotherreally unique gift because these
other assessments like DISC.
So I'm a high C with a low,this, and it's like, and this is
you for the rest of your life.
And it will never change.
(29:59):
And you can't ever learn how togrow in this thing or that thing
where it's like, or if you're inthis corner or box of the Myers
Briggs, it's like, sure, itmight adjust a little over time
or over your lifetime, butreally, this is just who you're
going to be forever.
And so people, you know, pushback against the Enneagram
saying, I don't want to be putin a box.
You know, and Ian alwaysfamously quote quoted, like you.
(30:21):
Um, with all these otherpersonality assessments and
tools that I've used and taken,it always has this sense of
being boxed into this thingwithout room for growth or to
change, or it's like, these aremy top five strengths and okay,
let's just double down on thoseand not worry about the rest.
(30:43):
And the Enneagram gives you somuch room and flexibility to
grow in so many different areas.
Um, as you become aware of themand as you learn how to pull
from them as resources.
And I think that just makes usso much more whole and complete.
Steph Barron Hall (30:59):
Yeah.
I totally agree and I think oneof the things that I like about
it too is, um, well, I think mybent is actually to look at the
negative, right?
Is to look at, um, how can I fixmyself?
How can I improve myself?
I know that I'm terrible.
Um, I think when you're raisedevangelical, that is a message
(31:20):
that you adapt and
Brian (31:21):
It is.
Steph Barron Hall (31:22):
Um, and so when I first was introduced to
it, I was like, Oh yeah, this isgoing to tell me how much I
suck.
Um, and that felt cathartic,right?
And, and I truly, it was awfulactually.
Like I felt so exposed, um, as athree.
And I think that a lot ofthrees, um, do feel that way.
But I Also liked that I was ableto have this growth process and
(31:50):
with Myers Briggs, for example,I've been professionally typed
as an ENTJ, okay?
Um, ENTJs are, uh, I quicklylearned famously, not awesome,
um, in the sense that they areknown to be like, Uh, Adam
Newman from WeWork, for example,like they can be very
(32:10):
manipulative.
They can be very cunning.
Um, very selfish.
And that was really hard for mebecause, um, I can see some of
those things in myself.
And also I think that Igenuinely want to help people
and I want to be there forpeople.
And I am really compassionate.
Um, and, you know, honestly,sometimes I'm not, um, but, but
(32:35):
I think that.
It was so hard for me knowingthat.
And then when people ask,they're like, Oh, you know, you
must be an asshole.
Like, that's like, that's such abad experience.
I mean, sometimes people saythat about threes as well.
Um, but, uh, what I like aboutthe process with the Enneagram
is, um, and when I, you know,work with groups of people with
(32:59):
it in corporate, it's reallyimportant for me to say, Hey,
none of these types are bad.
And actually like we all.
Are needed and necessary.
Um, but we just want to figureout how to work together better.
Brian (33:12):
hmm.
Yep.
I love that part of it.
Um, and I've been part of somany corporate retreats, staff
retreats, whatever it is, wherethey pick their next tool of
choice and you sit in the roomand you try to figure out what
everyone else is, whatever is.
I feel like you just so rarelyhear how they're meant to work
(33:34):
together.
Steph Barron Hall (33:35):
Yeah.
Brian (33:39):
um, with the Enneagram, it's like, here's how you bring
gifts to each other.
Let's take a look at your teamdiagram and notice where the
holes are.
So what do you think that meansfor you?
Or where are your strengths?
Where are you kind of stacked?
And what is that going to meanfor you as a team?
Let's look at your leadershipteam and what that looks like.
And so what does that mean foryour team?
And just like being able toapproach it.
(33:59):
In that holistic kind of a waythat brings everyone together
and says, look, none of us arealone in this, none of us
function alone, even when youthink you do, um, and, you know,
so many of us, when we learnabout our type, it does feel
like a punch to the gut and itis really easy to, to pick out
(34:21):
or recognize the parts of usthat we really just don't like.
Steph Barron Hall (34:25):
Yeah.
Brian (34:26):
at the same time, there are just so many beautiful
things and gifts and strengthsthat each type brings, um, when
they become aware of them orwhen they're functioning from a
healthy place.
Steph Barron Hall (34:41):
Yeah.
And I, I do actually think thatthat is a bit of, of this that
gets lost.
Um, sometimes people, um, arelike, Oh, I just want my ego and
my personality to be gone.
Um, and I I've fallen into thattrap too.
And I really was super threeabout it, right.
(35:01):
Super intense, super like laserfocused on like, Absolving my,
my life of any three qualitiesin
Brian (35:10):
Hmm.
Yeah,
Steph Barron Hall (35:12):
anything like that, which actually backfires
because, um, I think that all ofus want some sense of, of
meaning and productivity in thesense that we're like part of
something in life.
Um, and it's really unhelpfulfor my particular psychology to,
to feel like ineffectual, um,And I think it's helpful for me
(35:36):
to not think that's the onlything I can do, but like, I love
contributing to like the world.
Right.
Um,
Brian (35:42):
course.
Steph Barron Hall (35:43):
and I'm curious, how do you navigate
that with teams?
Like if they have, um, or, oreven other people that you're
working with, like if they havethat assumption, like I am all
bad, how do you navigate that?
Brian (36:01):
Um, I like to ask them why they think that.
Um, and kind of start uncoveringthe layers of where that
narrative came from.
Um, Because like we met, likeI'm mostly coming in and out of
evangelical spaces and so muchof it is shame based.
(36:24):
It's like, well, I'm bad becauseI was told I am.
And it's like, well, I'm sorryyou were told that.
And maybe you have a few badqualities here and there, but I
like to believe that you'reactually inherently good.
And especially coming out of alot of reformed theology spaces,
they operate A lot of peoplecall worm theology, which is
(36:50):
that we are all but lowly wormsthat are wretched and depraved
and in need of a savior.
It's like, Okay, but do you haveto go so hard and heavy, right?
And so I, um, one of our valuesfor Broken to Beloved is that we
like to operate on a Genesis onetheology rather than a Genesis
two theology.
And a lot of these churchesoperate out of Genesis two after
the fall.
(37:10):
It's like, oh, well, sin enteredthe world, and so you're born
with it, and you're, you needJesus, and you need these
things, and you're wretched andhorrible.
And so people walk around livingtheir whole lives as if that is
their root identity.
And they miss this whole openingstory of how God created the
world, and looked at it, andcreated people, and said, Very
(37:32):
good.
Steph Barron Hall (37:34):
Mm hmm.
Brian (37:35):
that was the original intent.
Not worms, not lowly andwretched and depraved, very good
and made in his image.
And so when people ask thatquestion or to say, Hey, there's
just, I'm just all bad.
And I just ask, why, why do youthink that?
Where does that come from?
Because here's what I read andhere's what I think and believe.
And you don't have to believeit, but it's what I think of
(37:56):
you.
And what does that do for you?
And then the Enneagram, like Isaid, it offers so many gifts.
It's like, let's just name afew.
Have you ever recognized.
This kind of behavior inyourself, or can you think of a
moment when you, and whenthey're able to identify those
pieces, like, I need you to holdon to that, because that is also
(38:19):
part of who you are.
And if that's in there, youcan't be all bad.
Steph Barron Hall (38:26):
Yeah.
I think even, you know, fiveyears after Nearly five years
after leaving, um, one of thesechurches, it's like still
emotional for me to hear that.
Brian (38:42):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (38:44):
Um,
Brian (38:46):
I mean, especially when you've spent an entire lifetime
steeped in it, right?
For a lot of people.
Steph Barron Hall (38:53):
yeah.
Um, I'm curious.
So as a social one, you know,one of your, which do you still
resonate with the socialsubtype?
Okay.
Um, so as a social one, one ofthe main things that we know
that social ones do is, ismodeling and like kind of
showing other people by theirgood behavior.
(39:15):
Um, how can I be like thepattern or the model for you to
approach this?
And I'm curious if that hasrequired you to do a lot of work
on your own inner critic asyou're working with these people
who have these beliefs aboutthemselves.
Brian (39:30):
so much work, so much work on the inner critic.
And I think, um, you know, oneof the things that I teach when
I'm working with people eitherin recovery spaces or coaching
spaces or any of them is like,in order to heal, you need to be
able to name something.
You have to name it before youcan heal from it.
Um, and I used to love the oldshow house MD.
(39:54):
Um, And he's a diagnostician atPrinceton University Hospital.
And every week and everyepisode, some new patient comes
in with a mystery, something,and they treat all the symptoms,
but until they can actually namethe thing that's wrong with this
patient, they can't heal them inthe proper way.
So for me, the inner critic is amajor issue and he's, he's there
(40:17):
trying to help me.
Like really, it's like, he'strying to help me survive.
He thinks he's doing the rightthing.
Um, if anyone has ever donetherapy or internal family
systems works, it's a part ofme, it's one of my managers that
just saying, Hey, let's get thistogether.
And so it's that wholenonjudgmental approach to once
(40:38):
I'm able to identify and name athing, try not to judge it,
which can be extremely hard fora one, especially, um, but just
to say, Hey, inner critic.
Thanks, I know what you'retrying to do, and you're trying
to help me, but I think I've gotit from here.
And you're actually not helpingme at this point, you're holding
me back, and you're actuallydoing harm.
(40:59):
and I just need you to take astep back.
And if I was unaware of thatinner critic, none of that would
be possible.
Right?
Um, and so I recognize as asocial one, there is such a
strong desire to Set the exampleor to teach is I love teaching.
I love being able to say, Hey,here's an example.
(41:19):
Maybe you can follow it.
Or let me set up this system orprocess for you for the good of
other people rather than meperfecting myself.
I'm actually very, not much aperfectionist about myself and
things.
It's just the systems and thingsthat affect organizations and
the way things run.
Um, And so I think that's a bigpart of it, is the awareness
piece, the non judgmentalobservation, um, and being able
(41:44):
to move through it in that kindof a way.
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (41:51):
and I actually had a friend who is,
um, I think she's like level twocertified, um, in IFS.
She came on the podcast, um, andtalked about it.
And I think it's just sohelpful, especially for people
who have a strong inner criticto not just say, Oh, shut up.
You know, because I do hear thata lot from ones where they're
like, Oh, just, just tell it toshut up.
(42:13):
And.
That can backfire.
Um, and so I really appreciatethat approach of, of, um,
compassion.
Yeah.
Brian (42:23):
shut up approach and it doesn't work because he just
talks louder.
It's like, well, if you're goingto shut me up, I'll just talk
louder until you hear me or payattention to me.
Right.
And isn't that part of the IFSkind of work?
It's like the more we try torepress something or hold it
back, the more it wants to showup.
So it's like, just go ahead andacknowledge that it's there.
And thank you for doing thework.
(42:43):
And let me take it from here.
Steph Barron Hall (42:46):
Yeah.
It's like co regulating withthat part of yourself
Brian (42:49):
It is a little bit.
Yeah,
Steph Barron Hall (42:50):
is pretty dysregulated.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I think that's such agreat example.
So.
When we talked previously and onyour website, I noticed that you
have mentioned the song one bysleeping at last.
And I'm wondering if you canshare a bit about that and how
(43:11):
that impacted you.
Brian (43:13):
Yeah, that was my entry to the Enneagram.
And I don't remember how I cameacross it other than just being
a sleeping at last fan beforethen.
Um, so I think he was teasingsomething about it and then.
I was like, well, what the heckis that thing that he's talking
about?
And then the song finally drops.
And I was sitting in my officeat the church, and I just put
(43:34):
the song on repeat for about anhour and put my head down and
cried to myself, I think.
Um, and the line that got me wasthe whole part of grace requires
nothing of you.
Or grace requires nothing of meis the way the song goes.
And it's, you know, he's singingand telling all these parts of
my story.
With so much compassion, therewas just no judgment in it of
(43:58):
you're a terrible person thatmost of us feel when we learn
our type, but it was with somuch understanding and
compassion of what it's like tobe a one.
So to hear that story told andthen to hear that refrain over
and over that graces requiresnothing of me because for me.
preached at me or talked at meor mentored at me or, you know,
(44:22):
whatever at me.
It's like, Brian, you just needmore grace.
And I would sit there at thesecoffee meetings or lunches,
like, yeah, I know, but like howhelp me.
I just don't, I don't get it.
I literally don't get it.
And that whole idea that,because for me, grace was
something to be achieved orearned.
I had to do better to get grace.
(44:42):
That's just the way I lived.
That's what I thought.
And so to hear that it requirednothing of me, I was like,
really, that's it?
I don't, and for, for whateverreason, that time it stuck and
it took, um, so just listeningto that over and over.
And I was like, okay, I thinkI'm starting to get it.
(45:02):
And I think I.
If I can actually, and again,this is growing up in church,
it's being a pastor's kid.
At this point, I'm already anordained minister, and I'm just
now understanding the concept ofgrace.
Right?
Um, it's not too late for any ofus, and You would be arrogant to
think that you've got it figuredout at any point in your life
(45:25):
Because there's always room togrow or to learn something new
And for me at that moment it wasthat idea of grace requires
nothing of me And if it reallydoes I can stop trying so hard
all the time And burning myselfout and taking everyone else in
the process with me
Steph Barron Hall (45:45):
Yeah, that's so powerful.
And I, um, I love those songs.
I actually listened to themagain over the weekend.
They're just so good.
Um,
Brian (45:55):
just so good
Steph Barron Hall (45:56):
and there's something
Brian (45:56):
you listened have you listened to his podcasts about
them
Steph Barron Hall (45:59):
Yeah, well, I, I did when, as they were
coming out, as they are
Brian (46:02):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (46:06):
Well, actually now that I think of it,
I remember him talking about forthe type three, how it was like
a very, um, kind of scaled backand like stripped down song and,
uh, arrangement and how, um, youknow, At the time I like didn't
understand why,
Brian (46:25):
Mm.
Steph Barron Hall (46:26):
um, but I, now I do because, um, you know,
my teachers say that threes arethe most emotional type, the
heart of the heart center.
Um, even though we like to denythe, those emotions most of the
time.
Um, and so I just have such adifferent perspective on myself
and my type.
Um, now.
Brian (46:47):
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (46:47):
But I'm wondering if there are some
things that you can share withtype ones who are maybe engaging
with the Enneagram for the firsttime, or they're kind of
processing this, what do theyneed to know, um,
Brian (47:02):
Mm.
Steph Barron Hall (47:03):
they go down this path?
Brian (47:07):
That feels like a loaded question that probably isn't at
all.
Um, I think the first thing Iwould say is whatever it is that
you learn about yourself, it'sokay.
Um, and I've, at our last summitwe had a somatic practitioner
(47:30):
come on.
Because the whole point is tohelp people, our tagline is to
help people move toward healingand wholeness.
And she said something that'sstuck with me ever since, and
it's this idea that the sloweryou go, the faster you will
heal.
Take really small steps, andyou'll actually heal faster.
(47:53):
Um, like I'm in physical therapyright now for my back.
Everyone goes to the gym onJanuary 1st, and the first thing
everyone wants to do is overdoit.
You're like, I'm going to reachmy goals, I'm going to do the
things, right?
And you just overdo it and thenyou hurt yourself and then you
can't move for three days.
But if you'll just start smalland start slow, everything
(48:16):
doesn't have to change at once.
You don't have to feel theoverbearing weight of being a
one or any of the other typesfor that matter.
Um, and just, what is the onething I can name about myself?
to become aware of it, and notjudge it, because it's, it's
there as a survival mechanism.
(48:37):
It's there trying to help me insome kind of way, and it did! up
to a point.
Right?
I got where I am because of whatI've been doing, But at some
point it's gonna start holdingme back, and at some point it's
gonna start harming me, and thepeople around me.
So what's just one thing I canname about knowing something
about me?
That I can pay attention to itwhen it's happening, so that
(48:57):
instead of the habitual,instinctive reactions, I can
pause just long enough to choosea thoughtful response instead.
Do I have to respond this way?
Do I have to say the thing thatI always say?
Do I have to X, Y, Z?
It's like, well, actually, whatif I just tried this other thing
(49:19):
instead and just start small?
Steph Barron Hall (49:23):
that's such good advice.
Um, and I like that analogywith, you know, kind of therapy
and everything, um, physicaltherapy, because My mom is a
physical therapist.
And so, and I hurt my back.
I was like, what, what should Ido?
She's like, don't try to fix
Brian (49:40):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Steph Barron Hall (49:42):
it be.
Um, and I think most of us werelike, Oh, let me just like twist
or like do all these differentthings.
And, um, that advice I think is,is really useful because it's
like, okay, what if I could takea baby step, you know, instead
of, um, You know, doingeverything and really intense
(50:07):
all the time.
Um, which some of us do.
Um, so that's great advice.
okay,
Brian (50:14):
Okay.
Steph Barron Hall (50:15):
let's go.
I have two final questions thatI ask everyone first.
Tell me about a book that hashelped you refresh you or shaped
you in the last year.
Brian (50:25):
Oh, man.
I read a lot of books.
Steph Barron Hall (50:29):
Yeah.
Brian (50:30):
I'll just tell you one of the last ones I read.
Um, two of the last ones I justfinished, um, are As Long As You
Need by J.
S.
Park, and it's a book on grief.
And it's just, the subtitle, Ithink, is just Permission to
Grieve, and he's a trauma onetherapist, or trauma, level one
trauma center, and he's achaplain there, so he sees death
(50:52):
and loss all the time, and so heoutlines lots of different ways
that grief presents itself, andlots of different ways that we
can deal with it.
Because we live in a societythat wants to ignore it or push
it aside.
And especially in evangelicalspaces to pretend it doesn't
exist because we're justsupposed to have the victory all
(51:12):
the time, brother, and just praythrough it.
And if you have grief, you'renot really believing, right?
And it's like none.
Well, no, let's not do that.
So it was just such a beautifulgift of.
It's okay to be sad aboutsomething because you've lost
something really important.
So how do you honor that memoryby grieving?
Well, Um, and the other one Ijust finished is It's Not You by
(51:39):
Dr.
Romani, um, and it's just a bookabout narcissism and how to deal
with them.
And the whole point is, listen,we have enough books that
identify narcissism and itstraits in these people, and the
truth is none of these peoplewill ever come to my office
saying, Doc, you gotta help me,I need help, because they're
narcissists, they don't thinkthey need the help.
This book is for everyone who'sever been harmed by a
(51:59):
narcissist.
This book And how do you findhealing, and how do you deal
with the fallout of constantlybeing gaslit, or talked to, or
talked down about, or bendingover backwards to, right?
Um, and so that was also areally helpful one.
Steph Barron Hall (52:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That sounds like it.
Ooh, that's good.
Um, okay.
So finally, what is one piece ofadvice that has really stuck
with you?
Brian (52:25):
Hmm.
A lot, but I'll just repeat theone from earlier.
It's just, the slower you go,the faster you'll heal.
Steph Barron Hall (52:32):
Yeah, that's really good.
I like that.
Um, okay.
So where can we find you andyour work?
So I can link it all in the shownotes for everyone.
Brian (52:43):
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Broken to Beloved.
The website is justBrokenToBeloved.
org.
We've got all kinds of programs.
We're always looking for supportand help, um, and that's where
all the places are.
Steph Barron Hall (52:58):
Awesome.
I will link
Brian (52:59):
Quick and easy.
Steph Barron Hall (53:01):
Yeah.
Um, well, I really appreciateyou joining me today and also
just the reverence with what youtalk about, um, this topic of,
of church harm.
I think.
know, my main coping mechanismwith it is like probably more
humor.
Um, and I just appreciate, uh,your, your thoughtful approach
and, um, how you've shared aboutthat today.
Brian (53:24):
Thank you.
Steph Barron Hall (53:26):
Thanks for joining me.
Brian (53:27):
I love being here.
Thanks, Steph.
Steph Barron Hall (53:32):
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(54:13):
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the Enneagram was so different because it got
underneath all of that and itsaid, this is why you do what
you do.
And then that for me changedeverything because once I got
underneath the behaviors to themotivations and recognized, it's
not just that you treat peoplethis way or that you have
perfectionist tendencies or thatyou show up and you tend to
(00:22):
withdraw in this, you know,whatever it is, it was like you
do all these things because youhave a need for.
Or because you're chasing afterthis thing or because you're
struggling with.
And I was just like, that makesso much more sense.
And it helped me to become like,it was a quantum leap in
awareness of uncovering andgetting to the root of all of
(00:43):
those behaviors for me.
That really just made such ahuge difference.
Welcome to any REM in real life,a podcast where we explore how
to apply our Instagram knowledgein our daily lives.
I'm your host Steph Barron hall.
And on today's episode, I amtalking with Brian Lee.
(01:04):
Brian is a pastor, coach andspeaker, and as a survival of
spiritual abuse and religioustrauma, he's spent his time
since leaving vocationalministry in 2021, working to
provide recovery and resources.
We're fellow victims andsurvivors.
In 2023, he created and founded,broken to beloved a nonprofit
organization that exists to helpother victims and survivors
(01:25):
through its annual summit andseasonal cohorts.
While also providing traumaawareness and safeguarding
practices to pastors, leadersand churches.
You can connect with Brian atbroken to beloved.org or at
broken to beloved on Instagram.
And of course, as always, thoselinks will be in the show notes.
So on today's episode, I reallyappreciated my opportunity to
(01:46):
talk with Brian about what it'slike to be a type one and how he
saw those patterns showing up inhis life, growing up and feeling
like one singular mistake canlead to losing everything and.
I'm not a type one, but I sharea little bit of similarity in
our upbringing with Brian.
So, I really resonated with thatdescription.
(02:06):
And so I really appreciated himbringing that to light.
And he talked a little bit aboutwhy he chose the Instagram
versus some of the other systemsthat he's very familiar with.
We also talked about some of thedamaging practices that we've
both witnessed, um, being a partof religious spaces and how
sometimes spiritual bypass,which is neglecting
psychological work, and optingonly for like spiritual
(02:28):
understanding and then teaching.
And toxic positivity, bothperpetuate harmful and abusive
spaces, especially when those inpower are not willing to look at
their own shortcomings.
Brian also talks about a littlebit of how he sees type four and
type seven, which are his arrowpoints show up in his life.
And how he's been moving towarda path of transformation through
(02:49):
shifting some of his naturaltype one patterns.
And he still brings his sameawareness and excellence and
integrity to all of the workthat he does now, um, which are
some of those higher type onetraits that we can all
appreciate.
This was a rich conversation.
And as I've discussed before,when I talk with people who are
in these religious spaces,especially talking about really
(03:09):
religious trauma, Um, this isnot an indictment at all against
any one particular religiousbelief.
But more.
So I want to open a conversationup for people who are
questioning and wondering, andhave legitimate concerns about
the way that some leaders usetheir power and also wanting to
bring more awareness to The waythat harm is perpetuated
(03:32):
throughout these spaces whenthere is such a concentration of
power.
So Brian's work is aboutbringing awareness to that as
well as helping us heal.
Through the process of leavingbehind some of those spaces that
were harmful and making surethat we're changing those to
protect people in the future.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Brian Lee.
Steph Barron Hall (03:53):
Well, Brian, welcome to the podcast.
Brian (03:55):
Thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Steph Barron Hall (03:56):
Of course.
I'm excited to talk with youabout what it's like to be a
one.
Um, so I know that we'll have alot of insights from you today.
Um, but first I'd love to hear alittle bit more about your
background.
What got you started with theEnneagram?
Where do you come from?
Tell us everything.
Brian (04:14):
Where do I come from?
I come from, oh boy, that couldgo back really far.
Uh, I come from an immigrantfamily.
I'm a first generation KoreanAmerican from parents who
immigrated separately, um, fromKorea, met here in the States,
had me and my two sisters, grewup in very rural, suburban, and
racist, uh, So just dealing withthat, basically my entire school
(04:38):
life, ran away to college andnever went back to those
neighborhoods, basically, um,and then spent the rest of my
young adult life trying tofigure out who the heck I am and
where do I fit in?
Right?
So for me, learning theEnneagram was a huge window
window into, Oh, this is why Ido what I do.
I also grew up as a pastor'skid.
(05:00):
Um, In a Korean church, whichtend to be extremely honor
driven, very performanceoriented of appearances mean a
lot.
Um, and so I felt an enormoussense of pressure on my
shoulders to be the perfect kidanyway, so you can already tell
(05:20):
I'm a one.
Um, and to set, and I wasconstantly told that I'm
supposed to set the example forbasically all the other kids in
the church.
That's really fair, right?
Um, and so for me learning aboutthe Enneagram, which wasn't
until I was well into my latethirties, probably, um, having
this incredible aha moment of,Oh, this makes so much more
(05:44):
sense.
And I never realized.
As dumb as it sounds now, butnot everyone sees the world the
way I do, which also makes sensewhen people react to me just
trying to help them and theytell me, Oh, you're so arrogant,
or you think, you know,everything, or why does
everything have to be done yourway?
Um, and for me, it was literallya life changing moment.
(06:08):
Um, I had also been through somereally toxic situations at that
point, and just easy to paintmyself as the victim and other
people's as abusers.
Um, and it gave me a little bitmore empathy and compassion for
them.
It didn't make any of what theydid right.
But I also understood where theywere coming from when they made
the choices they did.
(06:30):
Um, so it has been an incredibletool for me.
Mm-Hmm.
Steph Barron Hall (06:33):
yeah, yeah.
It sounds like it.
And I think, Hearing just evenabout like that desire to help
people and then it feelsdifferent than that from, from
other people.
I think that that's reallyhelpful because I've heard other
ones express that before and howchallenging it can be when you
recognize, Oh, actually peopleare saying that's not helpful.
Brian (06:52):
Yeah.
I, it's, it's gotten me introuble my entire life, because,
you know, my inner critic isconstantly yelling at me and
saying, that should have beenbetter.
And I'm, I'm.
honestly trying to fix thingsand making things better,
genuinely trying to improvethings.
And so it always took me bysurprise when someone doesn't
want that feedback of, Oh, thatwas wrong.
(07:13):
You might want to fix it.
And they take it as you'restupid.
And I just want to point out allyour mistakes.
It's like, no, that's not what Imeant at all.
Steph Barron Hall (07:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What was it like to recognize,Oh, people are taking this
differently.
Brian (07:27):
I made a lot of phone calls and sent a lot of text
messages just to apologize.
was a huge wake up call that noteveryone cares about getting
things right all the time.
I just genuinely had no idea.
I was like, how do you livewithout that kind of pressure?
I didn't know I could do that.
Steph Barron Hall (07:44):
Yeah.
Brian (07:45):
And so it's also been a huge sense of freedom, um, from
my own self imposed weight thatI put on myself, this pressure
that no one asked of me, exceptfor me.
Um, and so, Getting to recognizeand realize that most people
don't care about this, and theydon't even expect it of me, and
(08:09):
there's a room for a lot ofgrace, um, and there's room to
make mistakes, and it's going tobe okay if you make a mistake,
and life will go on, and you'lllearn from it, and it'll be
better.
And that was a real paradigmshift for me in Working and
living and doing relationships,all of the above, because all of
(08:29):
a sudden this huge weight istaken off of your shoulders and
it feels like I can actuallybreathe, um, and not be afraid
that if I make a mistake, I'mgoing to lose everything.
Cause that's really what it feltlike.
Steph Barron Hall (08:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's so anxiety provokingtoo.
And it's like, Oh, it makessense why you're walking around
with so much tension all thetime.
Brian (08:48):
It does.
Yeah, it is anxiety provoking.
And I don't know that I everreally thought of it that way,
but it definitely feels thatway.
Mm
Steph Barron Hall (08:55):
Mm hmm.
Um, I'm curious about, I knowthat you have experience with a
lot of different types of thesesystems, like different
personality type systems.
Um, and I'm wondering if you canshare a little bit about those
and what makes the Enneagramdifferent for you.
Brian (09:10):
Oh, man.
Um, yeah, I got my start withpersonality assessments and all
these kinds of systems, um, incollege when I took the Myers
Briggs.
Which I think most people takewhen they're younger.
Um, so you sit down and you takethat enormous multiple choice
test, and they come back andyour facilitator gives you the
(09:31):
report, and it's like, oh, I'man INTJ.
Well, what the heck does thatmean?
And then you read it, and it'slike, oh, this thing's reading
my mail.
This is cool.
Steph Barron Hall (09:39):
Mm hmm.
Brian (09:39):
And then beyond that, you don't really know what to do
with it.
Except that you travel with thisgroup of people who you took the
test with because you're goingto be on a team together and
then you spend the rest of theyear arguing about what is
introverted mean and what isextroverted mean.
And that was kind of the extentof it, right?
No one wants to agree on whatthese terms mean.
Or now that we have thiscombination of letters, what do
(10:01):
I do with it?
What does it mean for ourinteractions with each other?
Um, And, you know, we sat downfor a good two hours or more
just kind of breaking down.
Okay, so this is what this meansand this is how you're going to
interact.
Okay, cool.
But now what?
Um, but it started me on thiswhole path of, I didn't know I
could learn about myself in thiskind of a way.
(10:22):
And it was a waking up to notjust coasting through life, but
starting to make active choicesthat were a little more
conscious and less personalitydriven.
Um, And then I ended up in twoback to back environments that
were extremely toxic, um, andrecognizing and seeing these
leaders who would leave a wakeof destruction behind them.
(10:47):
And I was often one of thecasualties, which is why I left
both of those places, and kindof making a vow to myself when I
saw their behavior, andrecognize that most of it is
happening because they arecompletely self unaware of their
effect on other people, of howthey treat people.
People or do work.
And so I kind of made a vow tomyself.
(11:07):
It's like, I need to learn asmuch as I can about myself.
So I don't become one of thosekinds of leaders.
And so Myers Briggs, Berkman,Colby, StrengthsFinders, DISC,
I've done most of them and same,it's a combination of letters or
numbers or scores, and you kindof read a little bit, it's like,
(11:28):
okay, yeah, that describes alot.
To the best of my understanding,and I'm not certified in any of
them, so whatever, but they alldescribe what I do.
I, I kind of already know what Ido.
Steph Barron Hall (11:42):
Sure.
Brian (11:42):
And the Enneagram was so different because it got
underneath all of that and itsaid, this is why you do what
you do.
And then that for me changedeverything because once I got
underneath the behaviors to themotivations and recognized, it's
not just that you treat peoplethis way or that you have
perfectionist tendencies or thatyou show up and you tend to
(12:04):
withdraw in this, you know,whatever it is, it was like you
do all these things because youhave a need for.
Or because you're chasing afterthis thing or because you're
struggling with.
And I was just like, that makesso much more sense.
And it helped me to become like,it was a quantum leap in
awareness of uncovering andgetting to the root of all of
(12:25):
those behaviors for me.
That really just made such ahuge difference.
Steph Barron Hall (12:29):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And it really cuts straight tothe heart.
And I think that that can besomething I love about it and
hate about it.
Um, But with what you're sayingabout those work environments
that were so difficult, um, Ithink that's really important to
recognize because, uh, recentlyI had, uh, Dr.
Meg Errol on the podcast.
Her book is called tiny Ttraumas.
(12:50):
And she talked about, um, tiny Ttraumas, like small T traumas.
Why, you know, Things can betraumatic to us and how, and in
her book, she talks a lot abouthow, um, we overemphasize the
role of childhood in, um, traumain our lives.
And sometimes there are othertimes in life that we experience
(13:12):
trauma that is really difficult.
Um, but we overlook it becausewe're like, well, that I was an
adult, like it's fine.
Um, but workplaces like that canhave that impact as well.
Um, and I think that's reallyimportant to give space for.
Brian (13:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's, that's, that's agood point.
That's the nature of trauma, andI don't know that there's a
single one of us who makes ourway through life without
experiencing some kind oftrauma.
So, a lot of the work that I dohas to do with little t and big
T trauma, and the idea that it'snot the fact that you'll ever be
able to avoid it, but do youknow what to do once it happens?
(13:50):
Do you know how to process it ormetabolize it and get it out of
your system so that you don'tcarry it with you for the rest
of your life?
Right.
And for me, the Enneagram wassuch a helpful tool and still is
a helpful tool when I'm, youknow, working with other people
or, you know, doing aconsultation or coaching someone
individually, or doing a teamworkshop.
It's like, if you can becomeaware of all these things that
(14:12):
you carry with you and cutstraight to the heart of the
issue to recognize maybe whywere you traumatized or how were
you traumatized, whether or notit was your fault.
And most of the time.
Trauma is never your fault.
Neither is abuse, right?
It's something that happened toyou, but it is something that
you're going to have to carryand deal with.
So how can you dig underneathall the stuff that you carry
(14:34):
with you everywhere you go andget to the point of the issues
so that you can learn how tomanage it or move through it?
We don't ever get past it or getaround it.
You just have to, you have to gothrough it.
Um, and learning how to do allof those things so that we can
move forward in a more whole andhealthy way.
Steph Barron Hall (14:54):
I'm wondering if you can share a little bit
more about the type of work thatyou do, um, just to give us a
little bit more context forthis, um, so that we can kind of
understand.
Brian (15:04):
Sure.
So I run a nonprofit, uh, 501 C3called Broken to Beloved, and we
specifically focus on offeringresources for recovery,
safeguarding, and awareness ofspiritual abuse, religious
trauma, and church harm, which alot of people just call church
hurt.
Um, and I think that minimizeswhat's actually happened to
people.
(15:25):
So we call it church harm.
Um, you know, there's On gooddays, there's spiritual
malpractice where someone's justnot being smart or wise about
how they say something or dosomething.
And on worst days, it's juststraight out spiritual abuse,
whether it's sexual abuse,emotional, physical, verbal,
financial.
(15:45):
Like there's so many differentversions of how people have been
treated in the church, which issupposedly a place to find
safety and belonging and healingand all these wonderful things
and end up with places.
Usually because there are peoplewho are unaware of themselves,
who are going to use people totheir own advantage and twist or
(16:06):
manipulate, whether it'sscripture or a prayer or
something else, to serve theirown needs rather than to meet
someone else's.
Um, and, you know, I mean, we'vebeen hearing how many stories in
the last couple of years of allthese people in places that are
just doing incredible harm.
Um, so we exist to help peoplecoming out of those spaces.
To find healing and wholeness,uh, we offer cohorts, we run an
(16:29):
annual summit, we do monthlycalls, I do individual coaching,
and then we're also starting tomove into that awareness and
safeguarding space where we gointo churches or meet with teams
to teach them how to becometrauma informed and trauma
aware, set up safeguardingpractices for reporting, for
dealing with, you know, for allthese different things, so.
(16:50):
Mm hmm.
Steph Barron Hall (16:51):
Yeah, it sounds, it's just so necessary.
Um, and I spent most of my lifein, um, various churches and
some healthier than others, ofcourse, um, as churches are.
Um, but In the end, it's peopleare people.
And, um, I think it is reallychallenging when we don't
(17:14):
understand our own motivations.
And something I've just observedin a lot of church spaces is
this, and actually this is inany sort of these types of
communities that's like growthoriented.
Um, there is like the spiritualbypassing aspect where people
aren't doing the psychologicalwork that they need to do, which
in, in my Enneagram training,that's a big part of what we
(17:36):
talk about.
But, um, Doing therapy andspiritual direction or whatever.
So having these things go handin hand.
Um, but these, a lot of the timepastors raised to these high
heights and.
They like, Oh, I don't needtherapy.
I've got Jesus.
And it's like, Whoa,
Brian (17:54):
Mm hmm.
Yep.
Steph Barron Hall (17:55):
let's roll that back for a second.
Brian (17:58):
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (17:59):
How do you navigate that?
Brian (18:04):
Very carefully.
Um, you know, in, in doing thiskind of recovery work or
coaching work or whatever it is,one of the harder lessons that
I've learned is you can't helpanyone who doesn't want it.
And you also can't help anyonewho doesn't recognize that they
need it.
(18:24):
Um, and that's the hardest partwith these pastors or leaders or
people in these spaces who justthink they have it all together
or think that they have all theanswers or think that, um, You
know, you're just grieving oryou're hurting because you're
not praying enough, or youdidn't do this enough or
whatever it is, and that's thatsame spiritual bypassing, like
you're talking about, um, and,or, you know, I use the term
(18:48):
toxic positivity a lot, thatchurches just don't have a
theology of suffering or ofgrief or making space for all
these things that we need toprocess all this stuff that
comes with life.
Right.
Steph Barron Hall (19:01):
Yeah, we do.
And I, um, I've also seensometimes like the, uh, poverty
gospel as opposed to theprosperity gospel, um, where
it's like, if anything's goingwell for you, then you're not
living faithfully.
And that also sucks.
Brian (19:19):
Yeah, it really does.
It really does.
There's just so much that getstwisted.
And I don't know why.
I don't want to try to sit hereand think of a reason why.
It just, that's just whathappens when people are unaware
of themselves and don'trecognize that I'm doing these
things to fulfill my own needsand get my needs met rather than
(19:40):
operating out of a fulfillmentof I'm already So I don't need
my job, my title, mycongregation, these people to
take care of all of this stufffor me, right?
And so that's, again, why theEnneagram has been so helpful
for me is like, my identitydoesn't have to keep shifting
(20:01):
based on the people around me orthe expectations on me or what
my job is.
Should I have to leave it forany reason?
Um, if you can be grounded andknow who you are, man, does that
change the way you do things?
Steph Barron Hall (20:15):
Yeah.
How have, have you seen yourtype show up in the way that you
do all of this work or even injust in your life, um, more
broadly?
Yeah.
Brian (20:27):
what the Enneagram was, my type showed up all the time.
In the worst ways possible.
Um, like we, like I mentionedearlier, it's just all of those
perfectionistic tendencies andthe need to fix in quotes, um,
myself and everyone around meand point out all the mistakes
(20:49):
that are jumping off the page atme.
Um, the constant desire thatwill never be fulfilled to just
reform and improve.
Absolutely everything that Ipossibly can and spend way too
long on a project because thisslide doesn't look right.
And I need to just adjust thisthing by a little bit or pick on
whatever it is.
And then you compound thosethings when you are no longer a
(21:12):
student and now you're working ajob and you have people
reporting to you and you arebeing an absolute a hole because
they didn't meet your standards,which are completely
unrealistic.
Um, and just treating peoplelike trash.
Because they didn't do what younever even asked for, you just
expected it, that they shouldknow, um, and, and recognizing
(21:36):
and coming to terms with thefact that the terms arrogant and
conceited and know it all andjudgmental and overly critical
were all absolutely true.
I mean, that showed up all thetime and, you know, the, the sad
part of it is, As a one thatthat's all being put on me
first, and the only reasonanyone else around me
(21:57):
experiences it is it because itwas an overload and it had to
come out sideways somewhere elsebecause I could no longer carry
it by myself.
And so the way I see it show uptoday, once I learned about my
type and what it meant and how.
I was being perceived and feltby other people around me After
making a lot of amends andapologies.
(22:20):
It's like I was real jerk andI'm very sorry um It's you know,
Suzanne Stabile talks a lotabout the work is never to
repress something because that'sjust really not possible But to
bring up all the other thingsbut we can manage What we
notice, um, so it's a lot moremanagement of those tendencies,
(22:43):
um, and recognizing whensomething is good enough to call
done and it's never going to beperfect.
So when is it good enough tostop working on it?
Having way more grace formyself, which then allows me to
have grace for other people.
It's like, Hey, that's yeah, Iget it.
You tried and you know what?
(23:03):
Your try was good enough.
And let's just leave it at that.
It's let's just call it done.
Um, for me, I primarily work bymyself now, so it's also
learning those healthyconnections to both four and
seven to recognize when I need abreak and just go vent or find
an escape hatch somewhere torecognize when I need to sit
(23:26):
with my feelings for a littlebit.
Or to be able to express thecreativity part of it, rather
than just the structured, Partof life that I tend towards.
Um, it's being a lot moreflexible and less rigid.
And I think that's the gift ofthe Enneagram is once you have
that awareness of yourself torelease yourself from the
(23:50):
expectation that this is whoyou're supposed to be, or it's
who you're condemned to be forthe rest of your life.
Steph Barron Hall (23:55):
Yeah.
Brian (23:57):
It's, Hey, this is the way that you are, because this
is what you're looking for.
And when you realize that youactually already have these
things, you can choose to livereally differently.
And so look at all these otherresources you have around you
with four and seven and nine andtwo, and all these other things
that you could be becausethey're available and they're
(24:18):
right there.
And you don't have to be a jerkall the time.
And you can truly make the worlda better place without all the
extra judgment and shame.
Steph Barron Hall (24:26):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And I think I, I appreciate thatabout the Enneagram too.
It's like, you don't haveconnection to types that are
going to cause you to doubledown on some of those bad
behaviors, like three or eight.
Like I think a lot of the time,I know when I think back of my
early days as a leader and beinglike, well, if you're not
falling over dead at the end ofthe day, you haven't worked hard
(24:47):
yet.
You know, like, That's horrible.
Um, I, I never said that, but Iknow that that's how I felt and
how I thought about things.
Um, and I think now I see thingstotally differently to the point
where my assistant is like, Oh,I'm going to be on vacation.
But like, I'll be, and I'm like,absolutely not.
I better not see you in theinbox.
(25:08):
I better not see,
Brian (25:10):
Mm
Steph Barron Hall (25:11):
you know, um, because I think that's so
important for us to have thatspace.
Um, but it's taken some time andI think it's You know, 1 thing
to do it for somebody else, andthen another thing entirely to
do that for myself.
Right?
Um, but, you know, 9 and 2 don'thave that connection, right?
Where, you know, 9 can't justlike, oh, I'll just like, hang
(25:32):
out over at 2, um, 9's havethose resources that are going
to get them out of thatheadspace of, um, kind of
morphing to be whatever otherpeople want from them.
Um, and I really appreciate thatabout the Enneagram.
And I think that is one of thethings that kind of makes this
system a little bit uniqueversus, you know, some of the
(25:53):
other ones, like you mentionedearlier, like even, um, DISC or
StrengthsFinder, those sorts ofthings.
Um, but I also am curious whatthings changed for you, um,
after you sent those amends, topeople, but how did you, like,
(26:14):
what was it like for you tofirst be like, okay, I'm not
going to do this thing anymore.
I'm not going to do it this way.
Did it take a long time tochange that habit or?
Yeah.
Brian (26:23):
no.
Um, Some of it was justimmediate because I recognized
how much I had been hurting thepeople around me.
With my own expectations.
Um, so that changed prettyquickly.
Um, you know, when you'releading teams of people and
you're just demanding perfectionevery time that is not
(26:46):
sustainable or achievable.
Um, I just went to most, youknow, sometimes you verbalize it
and sometimes you just shift howyou do it.
Um, for a few individuals Iverbalized, it's like, Hey, I
just want you to know, I.
learned this thing and I justrealized that this is the way
I've been doing life and I'vebeen expecting it of everyone
around me and that is wrong andI'm sorry.
(27:08):
Larger teams that don't needthat level of or haven't
experienced that level.
It's just shifting the way thatI communicate expectations.
It's shifting the way that Icommunicate what's necessary
versus what is what would benice.
Right?
Um, Most of it is just melowering my standards, which
(27:31):
sounds awful in some ways, um,but it's just so much more
realistic and it's so much morefreeing and gives so much more
room and margin for a lot ofother things like relationships.
Um, I think that was a big pointof transformation for me was
just in knowing how to dorelationships so much better.
(27:53):
Because when I wasn't stuck inmy way of seeing things and
doing things, and then learningabout the other types, um, you
know, I mentioned I grew up inan immigrant family, and it's
like, when you can learn tocommunicate in someone else's
language, and the way that theysee and hear and think, it
changes a lot.
(28:15):
And so, recognizing it's like,hey, we don't see things the
same way, And not only is thatnot bad, it's actually really
good and necessary for me andfor you, because we're gonna
bring different gifts to thetable.
So, instead of me just tellingyou how I want it done, what
(28:36):
would be helpful to you?
Or, when I come to you withfeedback, what would be more,
like, what would be the mosthelpful way for you to receive
that?
Um, if it's personalrelationships, it's just, again,
recognizing that I don't need toget my way all the time.
And I don't need to be rightabout everything, because most
of the time, it's not importantat all.
(28:57):
And a phrase that my wife useswith me, a lot.
She hasn't said it lately, whichI'm thankful for because she
hasn't needed to, I think.
Um, is just, is that really ahill you want to die on?
And I'm just like, some, everyonce in a while it is, but most
of the time it just doesn'tmatter.
It's like, why, why am I juststicking to this thing?
(29:18):
Why are these principles, thesefake principles that I've made
up so important to me?
That I'm going to bomb arelationship or a friendship
over.
Um, and that kind of arealization is huge.
And I want to go back to whatyou said about why the Enneagram
is so unique and great comparedto some of these other tools.
(29:38):
And I recognize that while youwere saying it is like, when we
have access to these other typesand numbers that normally don't
have a connection.
Um, I think that is anotherreally unique gift because these
other assessments like DISC.
So I'm a high C with a low,this, and it's like, and this is
you for the rest of your life.
And it will never change.
(29:59):
And you can't ever learn how togrow in this thing or that thing
where it's like, or if you're inthis corner or box of the Myers
Briggs, it's like, sure, itmight adjust a little over time
or over your lifetime, butreally, this is just who you're
going to be forever.
And so people, you know, pushback against the Enneagram
saying, I don't want to be putin a box.
You know, and Ian alwaysfamously quote quoted, like you.
(30:21):
Um, with all these otherpersonality assessments and
tools that I've used and taken,it always has this sense of
being boxed into this thingwithout room for growth or to
change, or it's like, these aremy top five strengths and okay,
let's just double down on thoseand not worry about the rest.
(30:43):
And the Enneagram gives you somuch room and flexibility to
grow in so many different areas.
Um, as you become aware of themand as you learn how to pull
from them as resources.
And I think that just makes usso much more whole and complete.
Steph Barron Hall (30:59):
Yeah.
I totally agree and I think oneof the things that I like about
it too is, um, well, I think mybent is actually to look at the
negative, right?
Is to look at, um, how can I fixmyself?
How can I improve myself?
I know that I'm terrible.
Um, I think when you're raisedevangelical, that is a message
(31:20):
that you adapt and
Brian (31:21):
It is.
Steph Barron Hall (31:22):
Um, and so when I first was introduced to
it, I was like, Oh yeah, this isgoing to tell me how much I
suck.
Um, and that felt cathartic,right?
And, and I truly, it was awfulactually.
Like I felt so exposed, um, as athree.
And I think that a lot ofthrees, um, do feel that way.
But I Also liked that I was ableto have this growth process and
(31:50):
with Myers Briggs, for example,I've been professionally typed
as an ENTJ, okay?
Um, ENTJs are, uh, I quicklylearned famously, not awesome,
um, in the sense that they areknown to be like, Uh, Adam
Newman from WeWork, for example,like they can be very
(32:10):
manipulative.
They can be very cunning.
Um, very selfish.
And that was really hard for mebecause, um, I can see some of
those things in myself.
And also I think that Igenuinely want to help people
and I want to be there forpeople.
And I am really compassionate.
Um, and, you know, honestly,sometimes I'm not, um, but, but
(32:35):
I think that.
It was so hard for me knowingthat.
And then when people ask,they're like, Oh, you know, you
must be an asshole.
Like, that's like, that's such abad experience.
I mean, sometimes people saythat about threes as well.
Um, but, uh, what I like aboutthe process with the Enneagram
is, um, and when I, you know,work with groups of people with
(32:59):
it in corporate, it's reallyimportant for me to say, Hey,
none of these types are bad.
And actually like we all.
Are needed and necessary.
Um, but we just want to figureout how to work together better.
Brian (33:12):
hmm.
Yep.
I love that part of it.
Um, and I've been part of somany corporate retreats, staff
retreats, whatever it is, wherethey pick their next tool of
choice and you sit in the roomand you try to figure out what
everyone else is, whatever is.
I feel like you just so rarelyhear how they're meant to work
(33:34):
together.
Steph Barron Hall (33:35):
Yeah.
Brian (33:39):
um, with the Enneagram, it's like, here's how you bring
gifts to each other.
Let's take a look at your teamdiagram and notice where the
holes are.
So what do you think that meansfor you?
Or where are your strengths?
Where are you kind of stacked?
And what is that going to meanfor you as a team?
Let's look at your leadershipteam and what that looks like.
And so what does that mean foryour team?
And just like being able toapproach it.
(33:59):
In that holistic kind of a waythat brings everyone together
and says, look, none of us arealone in this, none of us
function alone, even when youthink you do, um, and, you know,
so many of us, when we learnabout our type, it does feel
like a punch to the gut and itis really easy to, to pick out
(34:21):
or recognize the parts of usthat we really just don't like.
Steph Barron Hall (34:25):
Yeah.
Brian (34:26):
at the same time, there are just so many beautiful
things and gifts and strengthsthat each type brings, um, when
they become aware of them orwhen they're functioning from a
healthy place.
Steph Barron Hall (34:41):
Yeah.
And I, I do actually think thatthat is a bit of, of this that
gets lost.
Um, sometimes people, um, arelike, Oh, I just want my ego and
my personality to be gone.
Um, and I I've fallen into thattrap too.
And I really was super threeabout it, right.
(35:01):
Super intense, super like laserfocused on like, Absolving my,
my life of any three qualitiesin
Brian (35:10):
Hmm.
Yeah,
Steph Barron Hall (35:12):
anything like that, which actually backfires
because, um, I think that all ofus want some sense of, of
meaning and productivity in thesense that we're like part of
something in life.
Um, and it's really unhelpfulfor my particular psychology to,
to feel like ineffectual, um,And I think it's helpful for me
(35:36):
to not think that's the onlything I can do, but like, I love
contributing to like the world.
Right.
Um,
Brian (35:42):
course.
Steph Barron Hall (35:43):
and I'm curious, how do you navigate
that with teams?
Like if they have, um, or, oreven other people that you're
working with, like if they havethat assumption, like I am all
bad, how do you navigate that?
Brian (36:01):
Um, I like to ask them why they think that.
Um, and kind of start uncoveringthe layers of where that
narrative came from.
Um, Because like we met, likeI'm mostly coming in and out of
evangelical spaces and so muchof it is shame based.
(36:24):
It's like, well, I'm bad becauseI was told I am.
And it's like, well, I'm sorryyou were told that.
And maybe you have a few badqualities here and there, but I
like to believe that you'reactually inherently good.
And especially coming out of alot of reformed theology spaces,
they operate A lot of peoplecall worm theology, which is
(36:50):
that we are all but lowly wormsthat are wretched and depraved
and in need of a savior.
It's like, Okay, but do you haveto go so hard and heavy, right?
And so I, um, one of our valuesfor Broken to Beloved is that we
like to operate on a Genesis onetheology rather than a Genesis
two theology.
And a lot of these churchesoperate out of Genesis two after
the fall.
(37:10):
It's like, oh, well, sin enteredthe world, and so you're born
with it, and you're, you needJesus, and you need these
things, and you're wretched andhorrible.
And so people walk around livingtheir whole lives as if that is
their root identity.
And they miss this whole openingstory of how God created the
world, and looked at it, andcreated people, and said, Very
(37:32):
good.
Steph Barron Hall (37:34):
Mm hmm.
Brian (37:35):
that was the original intent.
Not worms, not lowly andwretched and depraved, very good
and made in his image.
And so when people ask thatquestion or to say, Hey, there's
just, I'm just all bad.
And I just ask, why, why do youthink that?
Where does that come from?
Because here's what I read andhere's what I think and believe.
And you don't have to believeit, but it's what I think of
(37:56):
you.
And what does that do for you?
And then the Enneagram, like Isaid, it offers so many gifts.
It's like, let's just name afew.
Have you ever recognized.
This kind of behavior inyourself, or can you think of a
moment when you, and whenthey're able to identify those
pieces, like, I need you to holdon to that, because that is also
(38:19):
part of who you are.
And if that's in there, youcan't be all bad.
Steph Barron Hall (38:26):
Yeah.
I think even, you know, fiveyears after Nearly five years
after leaving, um, one of thesechurches, it's like still
emotional for me to hear that.
Brian (38:42):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (38:44):
Um,
Brian (38:46):
I mean, especially when you've spent an entire lifetime
steeped in it, right?
For a lot of people.
Steph Barron Hall (38:53):
yeah.
Um, I'm curious.
So as a social one, you know,one of your, which do you still
resonate with the socialsubtype?
Okay.
Um, so as a social one, one ofthe main things that we know
that social ones do is, ismodeling and like kind of
showing other people by theirgood behavior.
(39:15):
Um, how can I be like thepattern or the model for you to
approach this?
And I'm curious if that hasrequired you to do a lot of work
on your own inner critic asyou're working with these people
who have these beliefs aboutthemselves.
Brian (39:30):
so much work, so much work on the inner critic.
And I think, um, you know, oneof the things that I teach when
I'm working with people eitherin recovery spaces or coaching
spaces or any of them is like,in order to heal, you need to be
able to name something.
You have to name it before youcan heal from it.
Um, and I used to love the oldshow house MD.
(39:54):
Um, And he's a diagnostician atPrinceton University Hospital.
And every week and everyepisode, some new patient comes
in with a mystery, something,and they treat all the symptoms,
but until they can actually namethe thing that's wrong with this
patient, they can't heal them inthe proper way.
So for me, the inner critic is amajor issue and he's, he's there
(40:17):
trying to help me.
Like really, it's like, he'strying to help me survive.
He thinks he's doing the rightthing.
Um, if anyone has ever donetherapy or internal family
systems works, it's a part ofme, it's one of my managers that
just saying, Hey, let's get thistogether.
And so it's that wholenonjudgmental approach to once
(40:38):
I'm able to identify and name athing, try not to judge it,
which can be extremely hard fora one, especially, um, but just
to say, Hey, inner critic.
Thanks, I know what you'retrying to do, and you're trying
to help me, but I think I've gotit from here.
And you're actually not helpingme at this point, you're holding
me back, and you're actuallydoing harm.
(40:59):
and I just need you to take astep back.
And if I was unaware of thatinner critic, none of that would
be possible.
Right?
Um, and so I recognize as asocial one, there is such a
strong desire to Set the exampleor to teach is I love teaching.
I love being able to say, Hey,here's an example.
(41:19):
Maybe you can follow it.
Or let me set up this system orprocess for you for the good of
other people rather than meperfecting myself.
I'm actually very, not much aperfectionist about myself and
things.
It's just the systems and thingsthat affect organizations and
the way things run.
Um, And so I think that's a bigpart of it, is the awareness
piece, the non judgmentalobservation, um, and being able
(41:44):
to move through it in that kindof a way.
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (41:51):
and I actually had a friend who is,
um, I think she's like level twocertified, um, in IFS.
She came on the podcast, um, andtalked about it.
And I think it's just sohelpful, especially for people
who have a strong inner criticto not just say, Oh, shut up.
You know, because I do hear thata lot from ones where they're
like, Oh, just, just tell it toshut up.
(42:13):
And.
That can backfire.
Um, and so I really appreciatethat approach of, of, um,
compassion.
Yeah.
Brian (42:23):
shut up approach and it doesn't work because he just
talks louder.
It's like, well, if you're goingto shut me up, I'll just talk
louder until you hear me or payattention to me.
Right.
And isn't that part of the IFSkind of work?
It's like the more we try torepress something or hold it
back, the more it wants to showup.
So it's like, just go ahead andacknowledge that it's there.
And thank you for doing thework.
(42:43):
And let me take it from here.
Steph Barron Hall (42:46):
Yeah.
It's like co regulating withthat part of yourself
Brian (42:49):
It is a little bit.
Yeah,
Steph Barron Hall (42:50):
is pretty dysregulated.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I think that's such agreat example.
So.
When we talked previously and onyour website, I noticed that you
have mentioned the song one bysleeping at last.
And I'm wondering if you canshare a bit about that and how
(43:11):
that impacted you.
Brian (43:13):
Yeah, that was my entry to the Enneagram.
And I don't remember how I cameacross it other than just being
a sleeping at last fan beforethen.
Um, so I think he was teasingsomething about it and then.
I was like, well, what the heckis that thing that he's talking
about?
And then the song finally drops.
And I was sitting in my officeat the church, and I just put
(43:34):
the song on repeat for about anhour and put my head down and
cried to myself, I think.
Um, and the line that got me wasthe whole part of grace requires
nothing of you.
Or grace requires nothing of meis the way the song goes.
And it's, you know, he's singingand telling all these parts of
my story.
With so much compassion, therewas just no judgment in it of
(43:58):
you're a terrible person thatmost of us feel when we learn
our type, but it was with somuch understanding and
compassion of what it's like tobe a one.
So to hear that story told andthen to hear that refrain over
and over that graces requiresnothing of me because for me.
preached at me or talked at meor mentored at me or, you know,
(44:22):
whatever at me.
It's like, Brian, you just needmore grace.
And I would sit there at thesecoffee meetings or lunches,
like, yeah, I know, but like howhelp me.
I just don't, I don't get it.
I literally don't get it.
And that whole idea that,because for me, grace was
something to be achieved orearned.
I had to do better to get grace.
(44:42):
That's just the way I lived.
That's what I thought.
And so to hear that it requirednothing of me, I was like,
really, that's it?
I don't, and for, for whateverreason, that time it stuck and
it took, um, so just listeningto that over and over.
And I was like, okay, I thinkI'm starting to get it.
(45:02):
And I think I.
If I can actually, and again,this is growing up in church,
it's being a pastor's kid.
At this point, I'm already anordained minister, and I'm just
now understanding the concept ofgrace.
Right?
Um, it's not too late for any ofus, and You would be arrogant to
think that you've got it figuredout at any point in your life
(45:25):
Because there's always room togrow or to learn something new
And for me at that moment it wasthat idea of grace requires
nothing of me And if it reallydoes I can stop trying so hard
all the time And burning myselfout and taking everyone else in
the process with me
Steph Barron Hall (45:45):
Yeah, that's so powerful.
And I, um, I love those songs.
I actually listened to themagain over the weekend.
They're just so good.
Um,
Brian (45:55):
just so good
Steph Barron Hall (45:56):
and there's something
Brian (45:56):
you listened have you listened to his podcasts about
them
Steph Barron Hall (45:59):
Yeah, well, I, I did when, as they were
coming out, as they are
Brian (46:02):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (46:06):
Well, actually now that I think of it,
I remember him talking about forthe type three, how it was like
a very, um, kind of scaled backand like stripped down song and,
uh, arrangement and how, um, youknow, At the time I like didn't
understand why,
Brian (46:25):
Mm.
Steph Barron Hall (46:26):
um, but I, now I do because, um, you know,
my teachers say that threes arethe most emotional type, the
heart of the heart center.
Um, even though we like to denythe, those emotions most of the
time.
Um, and so I just have such adifferent perspective on myself
and my type.
Um, now.
Brian (46:47):
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (46:47):
But I'm wondering if there are some
things that you can share withtype ones who are maybe engaging
with the Enneagram for the firsttime, or they're kind of
processing this, what do theyneed to know, um,
Brian (47:02):
Mm.
Steph Barron Hall (47:03):
they go down this path?
Brian (47:07):
That feels like a loaded question that probably isn't at
all.
Um, I think the first thing Iwould say is whatever it is that
you learn about yourself, it'sokay.
Um, and I've, at our last summitwe had a somatic practitioner
(47:30):
come on.
Because the whole point is tohelp people, our tagline is to
help people move toward healingand wholeness.
And she said something that'sstuck with me ever since, and
it's this idea that the sloweryou go, the faster you will
heal.
Take really small steps, andyou'll actually heal faster.
(47:53):
Um, like I'm in physical therapyright now for my back.
Everyone goes to the gym onJanuary 1st, and the first thing
everyone wants to do is overdoit.
You're like, I'm going to reachmy goals, I'm going to do the
things, right?
And you just overdo it and thenyou hurt yourself and then you
can't move for three days.
But if you'll just start smalland start slow, everything
(48:16):
doesn't have to change at once.
You don't have to feel theoverbearing weight of being a
one or any of the other typesfor that matter.
Um, and just, what is the onething I can name about myself?
to become aware of it, and notjudge it, because it's, it's
there as a survival mechanism.
(48:37):
It's there trying to help me insome kind of way, and it did! up
to a point.
Right?
I got where I am because of whatI've been doing, But at some
point it's gonna start holdingme back, and at some point it's
gonna start harming me, and thepeople around me.
So what's just one thing I canname about knowing something
about me?
That I can pay attention to itwhen it's happening, so that
(48:57):
instead of the habitual,instinctive reactions, I can
pause just long enough to choosea thoughtful response instead.
Do I have to respond this way?
Do I have to say the thing thatI always say?
Do I have to X, Y, Z?
It's like, well, actually, whatif I just tried this other thing
(49:19):
instead and just start small?
Steph Barron Hall (49:23):
that's such good advice.
Um, and I like that analogywith, you know, kind of therapy
and everything, um, physicaltherapy, because My mom is a
physical therapist.
And so, and I hurt my back.
I was like, what, what should Ido?
She's like, don't try to fix
Brian (49:40):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Steph Barron Hall (49:42):
it be.
Um, and I think most of us werelike, Oh, let me just like twist
or like do all these differentthings.
And, um, that advice I think is,is really useful because it's
like, okay, what if I could takea baby step, you know, instead
of, um, You know, doingeverything and really intense
(50:07):
all the time.
Um, which some of us do.
Um, so that's great advice.
okay,
Brian (50:14):
Okay.
Steph Barron Hall (50:15):
let's go.
I have two final questions thatI ask everyone first.
Tell me about a book that hashelped you refresh you or shaped
you in the last year.
Brian (50:25):
Oh, man.
I read a lot of books.
Steph Barron Hall (50:29):
Yeah.
Brian (50:30):
I'll just tell you one of the last ones I read.
Um, two of the last ones I justfinished, um, are As Long As You
Need by J.
S.
Park, and it's a book on grief.
And it's just, the subtitle, Ithink, is just Permission to
Grieve, and he's a trauma onetherapist, or trauma, level one
trauma center, and he's achaplain there, so he sees death
(50:52):
and loss all the time, and so heoutlines lots of different ways
that grief presents itself, andlots of different ways that we
can deal with it.
Because we live in a societythat wants to ignore it or push
it aside.
And especially in evangelicalspaces to pretend it doesn't
exist because we're justsupposed to have the victory all
(51:12):
the time, brother, and just praythrough it.
And if you have grief, you'renot really believing, right?
And it's like none.
Well, no, let's not do that.
So it was just such a beautifulgift of.
It's okay to be sad aboutsomething because you've lost
something really important.
So how do you honor that memoryby grieving?
Well, Um, and the other one Ijust finished is It's Not You by
(51:39):
Dr.
Romani, um, and it's just a bookabout narcissism and how to deal
with them.
And the whole point is, listen,we have enough books that
identify narcissism and itstraits in these people, and the
truth is none of these peoplewill ever come to my office
saying, Doc, you gotta help me,I need help, because they're
narcissists, they don't thinkthey need the help.
This book is for everyone who'sever been harmed by a
(51:59):
narcissist.
This book And how do you findhealing, and how do you deal
with the fallout of constantlybeing gaslit, or talked to, or
talked down about, or bendingover backwards to, right?
Um, and so that was also areally helpful one.
Steph Barron Hall (52:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That sounds like it.
Ooh, that's good.
Um, okay.
So finally, what is one piece ofadvice that has really stuck
with you?
Brian (52:25):
Hmm.
A lot, but I'll just repeat theone from earlier.
It's just, the slower you go,the faster you'll heal.
Steph Barron Hall (52:32):
Yeah, that's really good.
I like that.
Um, okay.
So where can we find you andyour work?
So I can link it all in the shownotes for everyone.
Brian (52:43):
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Broken to Beloved.
The website is justBrokenToBeloved.
org.
We've got all kinds of programs.
We're always looking for supportand help, um, and that's where
all the places are.
Steph Barron Hall (52:58):
Awesome.
I will link
Brian (52:59):
Quick and easy.
Steph Barron Hall (53:01):
Yeah.
Um, well, I really appreciateyou joining me today and also
just the reverence with what youtalk about, um, this topic of,
of church harm.
I think.
know, my main coping mechanismwith it is like probably more
humor.
Um, and I just appreciate, uh,your, your thoughtful approach
and, um, how you've shared aboutthat today.
Brian (53:24):
Thank you.
Steph Barron Hall (53:26):
Thanks for joining me.
Brian (53:27):
I love being here.
Thanks, Steph.
Steph Barron Hall (53:32):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
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(53:53):
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this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(54:13):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
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