Mindfulness, Presence, and an Enneagram Path to Healing Humanity with Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton, Type 1

Episode Transcript
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Deborah Egerton (00:00):
What I teach in this sort of mission to try to

(00:06):
help the world to become kinderand more compassionate and to
recognize that we're allconnected is that it's important
to understand what a full bodyyes looks and feels like.
And a full body yes to me iswhen you maybe have an idea or a

(00:30):
thought, and you're listening tothe wisdom that comes from your
brain, but you filter it throughyour heart before you then let
it drop into the gut, and thegut will say, yeah.
Now you've got it.
That's the full body yes.

(00:51):
Sometimes a thought comes tomind and we just blurt it out
without filtering it through ourhearts and without the gut
saying, yeah.
That would be a a a good thingto say.
It's where unkind, you know,sort of words come out.
Um, people didn't take the timeto really take that through a

(01:14):
process of head, heart, gut.
If you do, you wouldn't saythose words or you wouldn't take
that action.

Steph Barron Hall (01:30):
Hello, and welcome back to Enneagram in
real life, a podcast where weexplore how to apply our
Enneagram knowledge in our dailylives.
I'm your host Steph barren hall.
And on today's episode, I'mtalking with Dr.
Debra Threadgill Egerton.
She is an internationallyrespected psychotherapists
bestselling author and unity andbelonging advocate for the

(01:51):
healing of humanity.
Affectionately referred to asDr.
E she has attained I Ecertification with distinction.
For her groundbreakingutilization of the Enneagram in
the realm of bridging historicaldivides, her work is dedicated
to dismantling marginalizationand transcending the divisive
practices of othering.
Doctor he serves as thepresident of the IEA, which is

(02:13):
the international Enneagramassociation.
And extends her coaching andmentoring expertise.
To a diverse spectrum ofindividuals, including
bestselling authors, top tierexecutives.
Spiritual luminaries,accomplished therapists and a
myriad of thought leaders, eachhailing from distinct and varied
backgrounds.
And her multifaceted roles Asconsultant, coach, mentor, and

(02:34):
spiritual teacher, Dr.
Egerton guides, humanity towardharmonious unification.
And today we are actuallytalking a little bit about her
story and her process.
And we're also talking about hernew book.
Uh, which is called Enneagrammade easy.
And this is about exploring thenine personality types.
Of the Enneagram to open yourheart, find joy and discover

(02:56):
your true self.
So on today's episode, we'regoing to be talking a little bit
about her background and how shefound herself as a type one and.
She has some fantastic advicefor us about.
Utilizing all three centers andthere's just so much wisdom in
this entire podcast episode.
And she also shares some advice.
If you are newer to presencingand mindfulness.

(03:19):
And one thing I reallyappreciated about our
conversation today.
Is that we talked a little bitabout how the types.
Kind of have these positivetraits that we often don't
appreciate.
I think in a lot of my Instagramjourney, I have done everything
I possibly could to issue someof the natural type three
tendencies that I had.
And I think that I reallyappreciate the way that Dr.

(03:41):
Egerton approaches just kind ofaccepting ourselves and
accepting those parts ofourselves that, um, are really
integrated in our Enneagramtypes and how not every trait.
Um, that we believe that comesfrom personality or ego is
necessarily a bad thing.
And how.
We can really appreciate theintegrity and the excellence of
ones or, um, the achievement andthe drive and motivation of

(04:04):
threes and how we all have thesegifts that are not necessarily
things we need to get rid of.
But, um, maybe that we can learnto use from a deeper, more
meaningful, more aligned, moreauthentic place as we do our own
inner work.
So we aren't becoming less ofourselves, um, throughout the
growth path, but more ofourselves and, um, As you listen
today, that is going to become alot more clear.

(04:26):
Like I said, she has all ofthese great tidbits of wisdom.
And even in the show notes,you'll see all of these little
quotes that we've pulled, um,that are just fantastic little
moments of her.
Sharing insights that she'sdeveloped over the years.
And so I really appreciate hertime and attention, and I really
hope you'll pick up her book.
Um, one thing again, that Ireally like about this book is,
um, If you are familiar with thewisdom of the Enneagram.

(04:50):
Resilient Hudson go through.
The levels of development.
And so Dr.
Egerton actually expands on thata bit in this book, and then she
also gives insights into each ofthe more jargony tight terms,
like the fixation defensemechanism, arrows, passion,
virtue, all of these sorts ofthings.
Throughout the book.
So again, really recommendpicking it up if you are newer

(05:11):
to the Enneagram, especially Ithink it will be really useful,
but even if you've been studyingfor a while, she has tons of
practical tools to use to applythis information.
In our daily lives.
So again, if you're interestedin that, that'll be linked to
the show notes and withoutfurther ado, here's my
conversation with Dr.
Debra Eckerson.

(05:31):
Well, doctor Deborah Egerton,welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much.
Happy to be here today.

Yeah.
I'm glad you're able to join me.
And I'm really looking forwardto talking with you because You
have been a prolific writer andspeaker over the last few years.
I have your first book.
Well, the first 1 that is knownto me about the Enneagram, No
justice, no peace, um, which isright behind me.
Um, and I also have your second1 that just came out recently

(06:04):
right here, Enneagram MadeSimple, which I'm excited to
talk with you about today.
And I would love to hear first alittle bit about your
background.

Well, um, I can tell you that I started out, as
a psychotherapist, and, uh, itwas during my journey as a
psychotherapist that Irecognized that I wanted
something, uh, that could helppeople when they left therapy.
So, you know, there's what youdo when you're sitting there

(06:35):
with your therapist, and thenthere's what you do after you
leave the therapist that eitherkeeps you in the same space or
you move along.
And, uh, I found the Enneagramand recognized that, wow, this
is amazing.
We can develop a sharedlanguage.

(06:57):
Uh, people can kind of go ontheir own journey and then come
back and and share thoseexperiences with me.
But 1 of the there's a a really,um, interesting story about how
before I knew the Enneagram,when I started my business, I
started out doing things liketeam building and, um, coaching,

(07:22):
uh, executives.
And 1 of my first assignmentswas working with a team of 9
people, and I worked with themon and off over a period of
time.
And when I did my last sessionwith them, this is before I knew
the Enneagram, uh, I assignedeach of them a role within the

(07:43):
team.
And, you know, I went around.
I said, you're the 1 that'sgonna kinda look after people,
and you're the 1 that's gonna doall the investigation and
research, and you're the 1that's gonna keep peace for the
group.
And what I described was the 9different Enneagram types, and I
didn't know the Enneagram.

(08:03):
And so, um, it was only a fewdays later that I went online
because I was just looking formore sort of, uh, training
resources, and I stumbled on theRiso Hudson Enneagram Institute.
And I'm not a particularlyimpulsive person, but I didn't

(08:24):
even have to think about it.
I just simply, you know, signedup.
And

up for their certification.

I signed up for this certification.
I got in the car.
I drove I was living inMaryland.
I drove to, Pennsylvania, and Idid in part 1, the part 1
training, and then I wentthrough all the trainings right
up to the master mastertraining, um, and it was just
right there in front of me.
And this was before the Internetwas really even the go to thing

(08:58):
for finding things, so it waspretty amazing.
Pretty miraculous, actually.

Yeah.
Yeah.
It's quite the meet cute betweenyou and the Enneagram.

Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.

Um, what was it like to recognize your type?
How did you figure that out?

I figured it out at that part 1 training,
and, um, I tried to be anythingbut a 1.
But and I share this with peoplebecause so very often, people
will say, oh, well, I see myselfin all 9.
I mean, you know, I must be a10.

(09:34):
Well, we have all 9 energieswithin us.
It takes all 9 energies to be awhole and complete human being.
Uh, however, you know, we havemore of certain energies and
less than others.
But finally, when I recognizedthe 1 energy was mine, and I

(09:56):
recognized it more on thedownside than I did on the high
side.
You know, and when when Irecognized it, I can tell you I
literally crawled up into alittle ball, went up in my room,
and just sobbed.
It's like, no.
I'm not self righteous.
Well, sometimes I am.

(10:17):
I'm not judgmental.
Oh my god.
Maybe I am.
My whole life sort of passed infront of my eyes, and, um,, I
thought of all the ways that Ihad tried to help people, but
maybe they didn't want my help.
And that if you're constantlytrying to help someone improve,
that you're actually making themfeel broken.

(10:39):
You know?
So yeah.
Yeah.
It was it was a it was a toughpill to swallow for me.

Yeah.
You know what's reallyinteresting is another Social 1
told me the exact same thingabout finding their type.

Yeah.

And I think that there is something about it
where, You know, you're tryingso hard to help people and to
make things better.
And, like, why wouldn't somebodywant to know how to do things
better?
And not realizing that, as youjust mentioned, that you're
making them feel more broken andhow challenging that would be
because your sense of self islike, I'm a good person.

(11:17):
I I'm kind

Yeah.
But it's the recognition thatthere's more than 1 way to do
something and that everyone doesnot see through the same lens
that you see through.
So, um, you know, it just it wasvery sobering for me, and I can
say, honestly, that I I took itvery seriously.

(11:41):
I am a woman of faith.
I prayed a lot, uh, just to say,hey.
You know?
Help me out here because this isnot the way I wanna show up in
the world.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Yeah.
So then what did you do fromthat experience?
What made you think, yeah, Iwant everyone else to feel this
way too.

1 of the things that that I recognized was that
I felt very wounded.
And, as a a psychotherapistmyself, I re recognize pretty
early on that I had to heal myown wounds.
You know?
So instead of trying to drageveryone else into the Enneagram

(12:25):
pool with me, I spent a goodlong time doing my own work.
And, uh, I can remember myhusband used to say when I would
come back from the week longtrainings, When you get to the
the end of the the trainingexperience, Don and Russ used to

(12:45):
say, you know, be kinda tenderwith yourself.
The world's gonna look a littledifferent when you get out
there.
And it did.
You know, the world just seemedmore harsh, more abrasive.

Yeah.

I would come back, and I would I would be
quiet for a while and just toallow the integration of the
work.
Um, I'm and I share that in thespirit of wanting people to
recognize that you can't justpick up a book and read about

(13:19):
the Enneagram and say, now Iknow the Enneagram.

Yeah.

is so much there for you to integrate, and
then, uh, as I always say,information, when embodied,
becomes wisdom.
So we can get a lot ofinformation, but if we don't
ever embody that information,then we don't move into wisdom.

(13:46):
If we don't move into wisdom,it's impossible to elevate your
consciousness.
I spent a good long time andcontinue to do my own work.

Mhmm.
Yeah.
I mean, it's absolutelyessential, I think, that we are
doing our own work because wecan so quickly just move into,
like, Spiritual Bypassing.
And that's a very dangerousplace to

Yes.
It is.
It is.
And, you know, there's a there'sanother term that I've coined
around the Enneagram.
Not only is there spiritualbypassing, but there's cultural
bypassing as well.
you know, standing at 0.1, and II tend to talk about the
Enneagram from the perspectiveof what point do we stand at on

(14:33):
the Enneagram and that it is anenergy to release people from
learning about the energy, thethe Enneagram energies and then
typing themselves and thenputting themselves in a type
box.
It's to me, we're given 9beautifully wrapped gifts.

(14:54):
If we only unwrap 1 of them,then we're letting 8 gifts that
were given to us to help usnavigate as spiritual beings in
human form, uh, we're we're justleaving them there, you know,
and only working with 1 energy.

(15:15):
But the important part of reallytaking in the wisdom and
integrating and embodying it,that's what actually changes
your life.
Reading an Enneagram book andthen, you know, stereotyping all

(15:36):
of the different types, andusing your stereotypical
description of the type as anexcuse for bad behavior.
You know?
You know I'm a 7.
Don't be mad at me because Ididn't show up.
No.
No.
No.
Um, Um, paying attention to ifyou are a 7 and you tend not to

(15:59):
like to make commitments, what'sgoing on there?
You know?
Or if you're 1 and you'reconstantly judging other people,
what's going on there?
So taking the time to really gointo deep internal exploration,
uh, uh, and doing that innerwork so that you can, you know,

(16:21):
um, actually move through theearth as a kinder, gentler, more
compassionate being.

Yeah.
I I think that's 1 thing I loveabout the Enneagram because,
Like, if I get on a call with my3 friend and we're having a
conversation, I'm like, oh, I'mlike turning over this thing in
my mind.
She's like, I think you might bereally concerned about the image
of this thing.
And then I'm like, oh, my gosh.
Because she's a 3, she's like, Ican see it.

(16:52):
Right?
That's so useful, um, to be ableto kind of have that person to
call that out instead of gettingstuck on What I think the issue
is, she's able to kind of seebeneath the surface, um, which
is incredible to have that tool.
But also as you were talking, Ithought about How you mentioned
we all have all these differentenergies, and you're really

(17:14):
saying, okay, use the headenergy, right, the mind center,
read about it, Feel it, youknow, the heart center, and then
embody it with the body centerand kind of attaching or
connecting with all thosedifferent pieces.

Yes.
And, uh, I'm delighted that youbrought that up because people
forget, Steph, that we have 3centers of intelligence.
I know Russ Hudson often says,why be 1 third of a person?
And it's so true.
Science actually bears out andbears witness to the reality

(17:52):
that, yes, there's theintelligence of the brain, but
the heart has incredible wisdomand intelligence, and so does
the body which manifest in thegut center.
What I teach in this sort ofmission to try to help the world

(18:13):
to become kinder and morecompassionate and to recognize
that we're all connected is thatit's important to understand
what a full body yes looks andfeels like.
And a full body yes to me iswhen you maybe have an idea or a

(18:36):
thought, and you're listening tothe wisdom that comes from your
brain, but you filter it throughyour heart before you then let
it drop into the gut, and thegut will say, yeah.
Now you've got it.
That's the full body yes.

(18:57):
Sometimes a thought comes tomind and we just blurt it out
without filtering it through ourhearts and without the gut
saying, yeah.
That would be a a a good thingto say.
It's where unkind, you know,sort of words come out.
Um, people didn't take the timeto really take that through a

(19:21):
process of head, heart, gut.
If you do, you wouldn't saythose words or you wouldn't take
that action.
So being present I mean, trulypresent.
And you will notice that peoplethat actually practice presence

(19:42):
have a way that they speak.
It's slower.
It's more intentional.
There are sometimes little gapsin there, And and the human
tendency is not to ever wantthere to be any gaps.
Like, oh my god.
Somebody's not talking.
Let me fill the air with words.

(20:04):
But really taking the time to beintentional about the words that
you use, the the way that yousay it, which your heart will
help you with.
Um, and then your gut willaffirm it.
You know?
Yeah.
Go ahead.
So that's 1 of the things that Iteach, um, that is Enneagram

(20:25):
wisdom, and then being wiseenough to wait for access and
opportunity.
Sometimes particular Enneagramenergies are prone to, um, just
jumping into a situation or, youknow, a 1 may jump to correct
something.
A a 7 may jump to change theirmind and move to another

(20:48):
project.
But there's something that Icall access and opportunity.
if we're truly present, then thewisdom of our head when filtered
through our hearts and confirmedin our gut, and then we wait for
the right moment.

(21:09):
Not everything is ours toaddress.
So if it is yours to address,you'll be given access and
opportunity to speak thosewords.
So it's kind of a different wayto even think about how we move
through the world.

(21:29):
People are always pushing peopleup to, you go tell them that
they need to do this, that, andthe other.
No.
that's not their choice to make.
It's yours.

Yeah.
And I can see how certain typeswould have more of that tendency
than others.

Absolutely.

Like, sometimes I think of 1, 2, and 3
in particular as the types thatare, like, overly responsible
for everyone else's business.
I know other types do that too,but I think that those 3 types
have a particularly hard timewith it.

No.
I I agree.
Um, you know, one's because ofthe looking always for the right
thing to do and tattooed on theforehead of a 1 is, how hard is
it just to do the right thing?
You know?
And, uh, tattooed on theforehead of the 2 is, please let
me love you.

(22:24):
You know, just let me help you.
Let me help you.
Um, and 3 is, you know, do yousee how hard I'm working to be
successful?
You know?
Look at me.
You know?
Really see me.
So, yes, uh, those 3 types arevery prone to getting into other
people's business, but for 3very different reasons.

(22:46):
You know?
1 improvement, 2 for help, and 3to be seen.
So, yeah, it's interesting.

Yeah.
I'm curious just on that notefor people who are really just
beginning with this concept ofPresence or even mindfulness at
all.
Do you have any, like, superbeginner tips?

I do.
Um, I would say for people whoare just beginning the journey
of presence and mindfulness,first of all, don't judge
yourself harshly.
Um, I often chuckle when people,uh, try so hard to meditate and,

(23:28):
you know, just to let your mindgo completely blank, good luck.

Mhmm.

I I think that in so many ways that that's not
the not the the greatest advice.
More importantly, if you'retrying to understand presence
and mindfulness and learning tomeditate, recognize that
thoughts are gonna come.
Just don't attach to them.
Let them go.

(23:56):
And I use the analogy of sit andbe still.
And as a thought comes, justplace it on a leaf and let it
float right on down the theriver.
Just let it go.
it's very good to just practicereleasing thoughts, just letting

(24:18):
thoughts go.
Random thoughts are there allthe time, but just don't attach
to them.
And if you do get caught up in aa thought, then come back to
your breath.
The breath is always there toremind you I'm always here.
I'm always here.
You can come back to me.
Let that thought go.

(24:40):
The present moment is the mostimportant moment of your life.
Every single present moment.
And if you can put that intoyour lexicon, if you can
actually believe that thepresent moment is the most
important moment of your lifebecause you are there for that

(25:04):
moment, then you begin tonavigate life differently.
You pay attention to the peoplethat you're with.
Uh, you pay attention to thepeople that are around you.
You pay attention to theenvironment.
You notice things that you'venever noticed before.

(25:25):
But becoming fully present towhatever is is a beautiful thing
to do.
I don't care if you're puttingout the trash.
Just be present with doing it.
You know?
And putting out this is a afunny example, but if you're
present and you're putting outthe trash, you know, sometimes

(25:48):
you'll notice that you've thrownaway something that you didn't
intend to throw away.
You know?
Maybe there's, uh, somethingthat you've been looking for for
a period of time, and there itis, but you wouldn't have seen
it if you hadn't been present inthat moment.
thinking about if you have youngchildren, that present moment,

(26:10):
they go off to school and theycome home and they're excited
about something rather thanbeing scattered or distracted by
something else, giving them thepresent moment, giving the
person that you're in arelationship with the present
moment.
It's 1 of the most beautifulgifts that we possess is the

(26:32):
present moment.
So to wrap your brain aroundthat, wrap your heart around
that, and then hear how your gutresponds to that, that's a full
body yes, the present moment.
Pay attention to it.
And I think that's a really goodbeginner's trip

Yeah.
Yeah.
That is.
Um, And I think that I can heara little bit of how your
background as a psychotherapistdoes impact the way that you Use
the Enneagram now, and I'mcurious if you can speak more to
how those 2 things kind ofintersect for you, like the this
aspect of psychology with withthe work that you do now.

It's very interesting because, um, um, I
don't practice as apsychotherapist anymore because
it would be very unfair toparticularly any, person that I
was engaging with who has anytype of deep psychopathology.
You know?
Just as I spoke the words aboutthe present moment, um, you have

(27:38):
to be present and available on aon a basis where that person
needs to be able to access you.
And my my work has become verybroad and very all encompassing,
and I feel like as apsychotherapist, I might be
doing people a disservice, uh,not to be able to have the

(28:01):
availability that I would needin order to continue to do that.
But my background as apsychotherapist is still there.
The way that it all comestogether for me is that, um, it
allows for people to continuetheir inner work journey.

(28:22):
So I do more coaching now, andwe have a shared language.
People can look at the levels ofdevelopment and see where they
are.
Uh, we can talk about that, andI can give all kinds of tips and
guidance and bring people backto presence and remind them how

(28:45):
that is so important for theirmental well-being.
And another important part of itfor me, Steph, is that people
don't always understand that inorder for you to be mentally
healthy, you have to payattention to the signs of your

(29:09):
mental health and well-beingjust like you pay attention to
your physical health andwell-being.
So, you know, if I have aheadache and it lasts for 3
days, I know there's somethingwrong, and I'm going to go to a
doctor.
Um, but if I'm having, you know,conflict with everyone in my

(29:30):
environment constantly, Peoplesometimes will just continue to
have conflict with everyone intheir environment constantly as
opposed to stopping and saying,what's going on with me?
We have an unfortunate tendencyto be able to say the words, I

(29:51):
know the only person who I canreally control is myself, and
yet we live our lives with theexpectation that other people
will make the changes.
So, you know, we have a longlist of changes that we would
like for other people to make.
And that's 1 of the reasons thatI wrote Enneagram made easy

(30:14):
because if we know theEnneagram, then we're beating
these people over the head withthe Enneagram saying, you know,
I'm doing my inner work, andyou're not.
Well, okay.
Just slip them the book

Yeah.

if they if they catch on to it.
And, um, you know, the Enneagramworks for some people, and some
people ignore it for 20 yearsand then pick up a book and
they're fascinated.
But it's the the realizationthat we really have to take
responsibility for what'shappening to our internal being.

(30:54):
Because there's a an old adage,um, people talk about getting
stuck in their ways.
And gravity moves everythingdown.
And if you're not doing any formof inner work, if you're not
actually present with yourselfand actually looking at your

(31:20):
behaviors and looking at howyou're showing up in the world,
then not only are you notgrowing, but you're falling
deeper into becoming stuck innegative behavior, thoughts,
actions, patterns.
Uh, so I think it is profoundlyimportant to pay attention to

(31:46):
when you're out of sorts.
What's that about?
What's what's what's going on?
And the Enneagram has abeautiful way of helping you
figure it out.
You can go straight to thelevels of development and look
at where you are.
You know?
Oh, heck.
You know?
I'm dropping out of average intounhealthy.
There it is.
Oh, that resembles me.

(32:08):
You know?
So, yeah, I think that's reallyimportant work for us all to be
doing.

Yeah.
I think so too.
And I love that analogy becauseI think a lot of the time, we
just we notice when we're atWith our mental health in
particular when we're at acrisis point, but we don't
always realize, like, thoselittle things that kind of lead
into that crisis point.
And what if we could be like,oh, I need a little bit more
support today so we don't end upgoing down that I mean, I'm not

(32:38):
saying that it's always a choiceor or whatever.
There are, like, lots ofdifferent, you know, mental
illness aspects to to it.
But if you're, you know,subclinical, I think that there
are some things that you can do,um, to help yourself.
Like, for me, I need to work outmore.
I think my mental health wouldbe so much better if I did, and

(32:59):
I haven't in, like, 3 months.

and that's the thing.
You know, you've called it out.
Now remember what I said aboutinformation

Yeah.

embodied becomes wisdom.
So, you know, your head knows Ineed to work out more.
I would help my my mentalhealth.
And your heart says, please helpme because I'm kinda hurting.
You know?
And now embody it.
You know?
And move move.

(33:30):
I say this my children used tolaugh.
I taught them all when they weregrowing up.
Move to the solution.
Just move to the solution.
Now don't spend a lot of timesort of, you know, wandering
around regurgitating thechallenge.
Move towards the solution.
And maybe it's just 1 step at atime that you move towards the

(33:52):
solution, but that's what youneed to do.
Don't just spin.
Don't just spin.

Yeah.
I would love to hear yourreaction to this.
Um, but as you say that, Thatstrikes me as a very type 1
thing to say.
I love it, but it feels very 1.
And I'm curious if if it seemsthat way to you.

It is it is a very 1 thing.
And I look at, um, I look at thehigher attributes of 1 in terms
of what can anyone at who sitsat any point actually offer to
the world.
And 1 of the things that Ibelieve as a human being who

(34:36):
stands at 0.1 that I can offerto the world is some wisdom,
some guidance, some discipline,um, some some way to see how to
get to a solution and not getcaught in the overwhelm.

(34:59):
You know?
I also have that line to 4, so Iknow what getting caught in the
overwhelm does, and I know howit can stall moving to the
solution.
But an important part of beingable to provide any kind of
wisdom or guidance or assistanceto someone who you see who is

(35:23):
hurting is, first of all, accessand opportunity.
Is it my business?
You know?
Has that person actually askedfor my guidance or my wisdom,
um, or my my perspective on thechallenge?

(35:45):
And then the second thing, and Ithink this is the most important
part of all, is the releasing ofthe outcome.
You know?
Sometimes, um, people at 0.1 notonly want to tell you what to
do, but they wanna force you todo it.
And I think 1 of the thegreatest outcomes for me

(36:07):
personally as a person whoembodies, um, 1 energy is I will
do whatever I can to help you.
Um, I will talk to you.
I will provide wisdom, whateverwisdom I have and whatever
guidance I can give you, but I'mgoing to release the outcome
because that's yours.

(36:28):
It's your journey.
It's not mine.
And this is where I believe thatmany people get too invested in
the outcome.
Um, be there to help people withlove.
You know, move people along withloving kindness and compassion

(36:48):
and empathy.
Be willing to do the rightthing.
And I I would prefer to say dothe kind thing because that's
more important to be able to dothe kind thing, whatever energy
you embody.
But release the outcome.
Don't hijack people's journeys.

Yeah.
I really appreciate thatperspective and even, Um, also
just thinking back a second tothe levels of development, how
you are highlighting thepositive things about the types
and what we have to offerbecause I think for me, and I
think that this is just my bent,like, my upbringing and kind of

(37:32):
My way of moving through theworld is, like, really to focus
on the future is bright andoptimistic, but the present and
I I'm like, there's somethingwrong.
Right?
Like, where there's, like, this,um, real focus on I think that's
why I loved the Enneagram.
I was like, let me just Dissectmyself, you know, and and really

(37:55):
in a place of looking for thenegative.
And, um, I like that you arebringing that other perspective.

Yeah.
I believe that it's an importantperspective to be shared
because, um, we're not mistakes.
You know?
We really are not mistakes.
And many of us can go throughlife feeling broken.

(38:29):
Uh, however, if we choose toview ourselves as unrepairable,
unredeemable, and spend too muchtime just dissecting and looking
and unearthing the negativewithout celebrating the

(38:52):
positive, that in end of itselfcan be very problematic.
You know, 1 of the conceptswithin the Enneagram,
fundamental elements that I loveis the harmonics and recognizing
that, you know, we have therational competency types, we

(39:13):
have the positive outlook, andwe have the emotional realness.
And following the law of 3 andthe the the understanding that
you always need that reconcilingelement.
So for instance, you know, if apositive Outlook person is going
at it with someone who's, um,you know, rational competency,

(39:37):
that would be me and my husband.
I am rational competency.
He's positive outlook.
But when we can really, really,really resolve something, it's
when we bring in the emotionalrealness.
You know?
When instead of giving him allof the reasons that I think this

(39:59):
is the right thing to do, andhe's telling me what a downer
I'm being because that's notnecessarily what has to happen.
But when I say, but, honey, thisis really hurting my heart.
This is just really hurting myheart, and this is why I wanna
do it.

(40:20):
It's not the just the rational,you know, list that I laid out,
and then it's no longer aboutwhy I'm bringing him down, he
can then be emotionally realwith me and then say, I can hear
that.
And then instead of us going ateach other, in that moment,

(40:42):
we'll embrace.
Those deeper concepts of theEnneagram are where I I want to
see people go to get beyond thisjust sort of fascination with
type and just looking at the thenegatives.
And we all need to do shadowwork.

(41:02):
Um, I think that's, you knowwith Enneagram made easy, we
also did 9 individual typejournals so that people can do
some deeper work.
But finding the elements of theEnneagram that are conducive to
growth.
And for heaven's sake, pleasecelebrate the beauty of how you

(41:28):
how and who you were created tobe.
You know, if you don't celebrateyourself, nobody else is even
gonna know if there's acelebration that needs to be
going on.
So it's kinda like my birthdaytill March fifteenth.
So I celebrate from Marchfifteenth to March fourteenth.

I love it.

a yeah.
It's my birthday year.
So, you know, um, get to thatplace where you find the beauty
in the broken places, not justthe broken places.
I I actually happen to have a,um, a table that is beautiful

(42:12):
wood, and it's it's just, youknow, split and open in so many
places, and I have a lamp that'sunder there.
And when I turn that lamp on,you can see the light that is
coming out of, you know, all ofthose broken places.
We forget that there is beautyand light that can emerge from

(42:33):
the broken spaces.

Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
And I love that analogy and sucha cool table.

Yeah.
It really is cool.

Yes.
I did.
and I I wanna talk a little bitmore about your book because,
Like you said, it's really meantto be a guide for people where
they can just take it andunderstand themselves,
understand the Enneagram,understand, you know, the
practical use case for thistool.
Um, what made you want to writethis?

What made me want to write Enneagram made
easy?
Uh, 1 was, the first book that Iwrote is a very serious, uh,
topic.
You know?
No justice.
No peace with a k, um, wassomething that I believe people
will go back for when theyunderstand the Enneagram better.

(43:30):
Uh, and what I see in the worldis an awful lot of people asking
what it do do the work?
What is the work?
I don't even know what the workis.
People are always saying, doyour work.
What work?

(43:51):
So I wrote Enneagram because Ifelt like if I could break out
the fundamental concepts of theEnneagram into bite sized,
digestible, sections that peoplewould be able to understand it.
And, also and that's for peoplewho don't have any experience

(44:17):
with the Enneagram.
To be like their primer, theirfirst book of the Enneagram,
written easy and madeunderstandable.
But also for people who havebeen practicing the Enneagram
for a long time who aren't doinganything but looking at their
own type.
And I believe in the 9 energydance.

(44:40):
I I so believe in that because Ibelieve that it's what the world
needs right now.
I believe we need to understandall 9 of the energies in order
to be able to relate better to 1another, um, across differences
and even within, uh,similarities.

(45:02):
Just understand that even if youhave the same Enneagram point as
me, that you may be your yourenergy vibration may be on the
lower level or the higher level.
But if I really understand theEnneagram, I know what I'm
looking at.

(45:23):
And then when you know you know,Maya Angelou always said, when
you know better, you do better.
And in order to know better andto do better, we have to
understand.
Uh, there's, um, a word thatjust irritates me.
And and, 3, maybe 4 decades ago,the word was a really good word.

(45:50):
It was tolerance.
You know, people were very proudof themselves when they reached
a point of tolerance.
And I feel like society gotstuck at tolerance

Yeah.

tolerance is not acceptance.
It's not inclusion.
It's not belonging.
It's not connection.
Tolerance is putting up with,and it may be better than anger
and hatred and, um, dismissal.

(46:28):
However, it's 1 step in ajourney of many steps.
And, um, um, I wrote no um, Iwrote minigram made easy so that
people would begin to activateand use the Enneagram out in the

(46:48):
world.
I believe that the state of theindividual contributes to the
state of the collective.
And if we look at the worldtoday and we look at the
collective, then we need anawful lot more work to be done

(47:11):
on the individual level in orderfor people to be able to come
out and affect the collectivelevel of the energy that is, you
know, prevailing in the worldtoday.
So that's a very longcomplicated answer, but that's
really why I wrote it.

Yeah.
Well, it's It's helpful, and Ialso really appreciate this
point that you're emphasizingthat I think in Enneagram spaces
a lot of the time, andEspecially, you know, in the
United States overall, it's veryindividualistic.
You know, at times and even I'vesaid things like this on
Instagram in the past that Itotally disagree with now where
it's like, oh, no.
You're only responsible foryourself.

(47:49):
And I think to think back to theboundaries kind of conversation
we were having earlier, I'mresponsible for myself to be
accountable to myself to do mywork.
But that doesn't mean that it'sall about me.
It's really about, like, thiscommunal experience that we're
having and and helping otherpeople along the way, whatever
that might Look like.
Um, and we focus so much on ourour own experience of it and

(48:13):
forget that there are otherpeople

And it's so true.
And, you know, um, you know, wethrow a lot of words around, uh,
narcissistic and self centered,on and on and on.
However, rather than justthrowing labels on people, um, I
believe that each of us has apuzzle piece that creates the

(48:38):
energy of the world, and thereis no contribution that is not
worthy that is unworthy, uh, ofactually being placed in the
energetic system of the world.
But if I don't put my puzzlepiece in there, then the people

(49:02):
whose pieces fit around it don'thave anywhere to go.
So believe that we all have acontribution to make.
There's not a a contributionthat is too small.
It's just wherever you are inthe world, contribute to the
loving kindness that needs toprevail.

(49:27):
Learn more about the reality of,you know, divine feminine and
divine masculine energy that weall embody.
Uh, bring that into the world.
If you happen to be a woman,don't try to lead like a man.
If you happen to be a man, don'ttry to lead like a woman.
Let's complement each other.

(49:47):
And if you're nonbinary, well,you know what?
You lucked out because you'veyou've you're you're able to to
really understand the realitiesof how important that is.
But we we want to make love andkindness and compassion

(50:08):
complicated, and it's notcomplicated.
Every now and then, and I saythis often, every now and then,
we may have to shoot narrow.
But if you're going to shoot anarrow, when you pull that arrow
out of the quiver, be sure youdip the tip in love before you

(50:29):
release the bow.
There is not anything in thisworld that we face that will not
be helped by love and kindness.
But where there is already painand suffering, any measure of

(50:53):
anger, hatred, negativity onlyfurther muddies the waters and
makes that circumstance morepainful.
So, you know, we we have somework to do in this world, um,
particularly if we want it to bea kinder, gentler people place
for people who come behind us.

Yeah.
It's beautifully said, and Ithink, um, there's so much
wisdom in just you know, we'retalking about this 1 Enneagram
book, Enneagram made easy, butyou have all of this other
wisdom that's packaged upunderneath that.
Um, and so I really appreciateyou sharing that with us today.

(51:36):
I am curious.
So say well, I'll just usemyself as an example.
So Point standing at 0.3 as youyou term, how do I grab a
different energy or leverage adifferent energy or access that?

Um, you begin with the points that are closest
to you.
So your wings.
Uh, learn how to actuallyunderstand the energy at 0.2 and
the energy at 0.4.
Uh, it's 1 of the reasons that II wrote the companion journals

(52:16):
to go along with Enneagram madeeasy.
Enneagram made easy comes out inMarch.
The journals will be released inApril.
But to actually work with theenergy of 2.
So you read about, you know, youread about, um, you can watch
panels on YouTube.

(52:37):
You actually pay attention towhat it would feel like to view
life through the lens of a 2.
What would a 2 say?
What would a 2 do in thatparticular instance?

(52:57):
The same with the 4.
What would a 4 say?
What would a 4 do as opposed towhat you would do at 0.3?
We know point at 0.4, there's alot of empathy.
You know?
Um, if someone is hurting,someone who stands at 0.4 is not

(53:18):
necessarily gonna try to cheerthem up.
They're just gonna sit there inthat space.
So where in your life might theenergy of 0.4 be useful, and
where can you practice it?
You know that at 0.2, there's acapacity to, um, give and

(53:40):
receive love, And I think that'sa very important energy for
someone who stands at 0.3because at 0.3, there's what I
call a little bit of faultywiring between the head and the
heart.
There can be a little bit of a ayou know, like, I'm I'm I'm
trying to get there.
I'm trying to keep these 2connected, but I wanna get this

(54:03):
thing done.
You know?
Um, and my heart's getting inthe way.
And so not letting your heartget in the way, but embracing as
a 2 would, the feelings alongwith the thoughts, the ideas, or
the process.
And then you go to, of course,your, um, points to to 6 and 9,

(54:28):
and same thing.
What would a 9 do in thissituation?
What would a 9 feel?
What would a 6 do?
What would a 6 feel?
Just actually practicing theperspective of the other energy.
It's something that I do a lot,and, actually, um, early in 20

(54:51):
25, um, I've done an oracle deckwith Colette Baron Reid, uh,
that is all of the Enneagramenergies.
And my goal for that is thatpeople will actually just take a
card every day and see whatenergy that they actually get
and see where the energy, thatenergy is needed in their lives.

(55:15):
Therefore, they try to reallynot just embody, because it
takes time to do that, butunderstand that energy.
It helps us to become a fullwhole person, but it also just
increases our capacity tounderstand people who stand at

(55:40):
the 8 other points that are notour home base.

Yeah.
Absolutely.
Um, I was really hoping I wouldget some access So 1 and 8, but
I guess I'll have to move to theadvanced level before I get
those.

Well, you know, you and think about this.
You have access to 2.
And if you walk the Enneagrammap from 2, you can actually get
yourself to 8.
And from 2, you can also just doanother little slide over into

(56:18):
1.
From 4, there is a line to 1.
So, you know and and actuallywalking the mat is a powerful
thing to do.
I so I don't know if you'regoing to be around, but, um,
March 20 20 second, I'm, um,doing a full preday

(56:42):
preconference day in Phoenix forthe Hay House I Can Do It
conference, and I would love toput you on the map.

That would be so fun.

I would love to put you on the map.
Yeah.
It's in Phoenix.
So where are you located?
Okay.
That that's that's not too far.

It's closer than you.

Much closer than me.

Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
So cool.
Yeah.
So okay.
So I know we're gonna talk againbecause I really want to hear a
little bit more about yourjournals, and how they're going
to support people.
And we're going to talk aboutreally practical insights when
we Discuss those.
Um, so I would love to end thissession of our conversation

(57:32):
here, um, with a couple ofquestions.
So first off, tell me about abook that has shaped you,
refreshed you, or helped you inthe last year.

So books are my guilty pleasure.
And, um, when you ask me tochoose 1, that's asking me,
like, like, to choose 1 of mychildren.
let's see.
What is 1 that I loved thisyear?
Um, actually, something that hasthat I loved this year is

(58:05):
internal family systems.
I just I see a naturalconnection between that and the
Enneagram.
And, uh, so that's somethingthat I have branched off into
looking at because I think thatthey complement 1 another.
Um, and so there are severalbooks I've I've read several of

(58:28):
them, but, uh, a good 1 forpeople is no bad parts.
So I think that that's a a great1, and it has greatly influenced
me this year.
Um, and I'll leave it at thatbecause, otherwise, I'll go into
a list of 25 others.

Yeah.
And and we could just Definitelydo that because I'm the same
way.
I just moved offices, and I waslike, I have an obscene number
of books that I am bringing tomy office.
And then there are all the onesthat are for home that I'm not
bringing to the office.
It's like,

I know I know exactly how it is.
It's I have, um, I still have aKindle for no other reason than
if I whenever I read a book, ifI love it, then I make sure that
I download I like to read theactual book, but I download it
on Kindle so that I can have myportable library go everywhere

Yep.

everywhere with me.
So yeah.

Yeah.
My emotional support, Kendall.

Yes.
Absolutely.
Yes.
That that's yeah.
And it doesn't bark, and I don'thave to feed it.
So

It's perfect.

you have to charge it from time to time, but
that's it.

So Okay.
Last question.
Tell me about a piece of advicethat has really stuck with you.

The, um, um, there's so many pieces of advice
that stuck with me that camefrom my mother.
So I'm gonna have to have I'mgonna have to share 2.
1 was my mother told me oncethat the best thing about me was
also the worst thing about me.

(01:00:09):
And I thought, well, okay.
I don't know if that's acompliment or a slap, but say
more.
And this was shortly before shedied, and she said, Deborah, you
are you have always been reallykind, and you'll do anything you
can to try to help someone.

(01:00:30):
But in that kindness, you alsohave, uh, an affinity for just
allowing people to go too far interms of not treating you the
way that you should be treated.

(01:00:51):
And then when you finallyrecognize that you're being
harmed by someone, you wake upand you, you know, then you kind
of delete that person from yourlife.
And she said, I think it wouldserve you well to see it and

(01:01:13):
give voice to it as it'shappening.
And that stuck with me because,you know, being an Enneagram
person who stands at 0.1, myenergy, it's natural pro
proclivity is toward tampingdown the the anger, um, just

(01:01:39):
trying to not be inappropriateby saying something.
So just tamp it down.
And then what ones do, uh, uh,when they really get angry, I
always say, you know, you'vegotta be careful because the 1
has a switchblade tongue.
So the words that come out thenwill be very mean spirited, and

(01:02:01):
sometimes there there might be acase where there's no coming
back from it.
And I don't ever wanna be inthat situation.
So, um, I was a younger womanwhen my mother told me that, but
I took it to heart.
And the other thing that was notso much advice, but it was
something that I heard, and itstopped me in my tracks and

(01:02:25):
brought me to my knees.
And it is, um, Sleeping at Lasthas the 9 different Enneagram
songs.
And the Enneagram song 4.1 has aline in it that says, to spend
all of your life to discoverthat grace requires nothing of

(01:02:50):
me.
And even now, just seeing that,um, you cannot work for, God's
grace.
It just comes naturally.
So to spend all of your lifetrying to prove that you're

(01:03:14):
worthy by trying to do the rightthing, that is a something, you
know, to let go of.
You're just

Steph Barron Hall (01:03:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that line in that song.

Deborah Egerton (01:03:32):
Yes.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that just, it italways comes back and washes
over me.
You know?
Um, I don't have to provegoodness.
Um, I don't have to try to be,um, the person that solves
everything.

(01:03:52):
I just have to be and know thatI'm loved.
So

That's beautiful.
Okay.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me.
Tell me, where can people findyou?

The easiest place to find me is at Deborah
Egerton dot com.
So, you know, you'll put all thelinks in, but it's people spell
my name wrong in, uh, multipleof ways.
So put the link in, but it's,uh, d e b o r a h, and Egerton

(01:04:27):
is e g e r t o n.
So people always end up with 2g's or spelling Deb Debra, and
it's so yeah.
It's Deborah Egerton dot com.
And everything you ever wantedto know or needed to find about
me is located in that space.
And, uh, also through the IEA,because I'm I'm right now the

(01:04:48):
president of the InternationalAssociation.
So any anything that goes off tothe IEA makes its way back to
me.

Cool.
Okay.
Well, I love that.
Um, thank you again so much forcoming back and talking with me,
and I can't wait to talk aboutyour journals very soon.

Very soon.
That'll be great.

Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
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(01:05:31):
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(01:05:52):
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