March 5, 2024 • 57 mins
On this week’s episode of Enneagram IRL, we meet with Dani Cooper, a Certified Enneagram Teacher, Coach, and totally-biased cheerleader for individuals, couples, and teams who want to find out who they really are and grow beyond the armor of their Enneagram types. She is the author of the book, The Enneagram for Christian Couples, which came out in 2022. Her life's work is learning how to love herself as a messy, imperfect and absolutely enough human person.
Book a session with Dani here!
🔗 Connect with Dani Cooper!
💻 https://www.deepwatersenneagram.com/
📷 Instagram: @deepwatersenneagram
🔗 Connect with Steph!
📷 Instagram: @ninetypesco
🎥Youtube: @stephbarronhall
Here are the key takeaways:
- Diving into Dani’s background
- “Without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God”
- Dani’s AHA moments when typing as a One
- “I’m not perfect enough to be a perfectionist”
- Typing as the one-to-one subtype
- Perspectives within their relationships from one-to-one subtypes
- “With awareness, we get to choose. Without awareness, you just react.”
- Growing up with negative messaging
- How do you measure what’s “appropriate?”
- What has Dani learned from working with clients?
- Dani’s advice for those starting a self-discovery journey
- How to connect with Dani
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- The Dance of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Monk Kidd
- The Book of Longings: A Novel by Sue Monk Kidd
- The Wisdom of Your Body by Hillary L. McBride
Want to keep learning about the Enneagram? Grab Steph’s new book, Enneagram in Real Life! Find the book, ebook, or audiobook wherever books are sold.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dani Cooper (00:00):
You're not your type, but, finding out about
(00:03):
your type will help you see howyou've been really living into
type and that you're just somuch more.
Hello, and welcome back to anygram in real life, a podcast
where we explore how to applyour Enneagram knowledge in our
daily lives.
(00:23):
I'm your host Steph barren hall.
And on today's episode, I amtalking with an Enneagram one.
So today I'm meeting with DannyCooper and I've known Danny for
a few years.
We actually met through someEnneagram coaching circles a few
years ago.
And, yeah, we've just stayedconnected and I really loved
Danny's perspective.
And today you're going to hearwhat it's like to be the
(00:44):
one-to-one or the sexual subtypeof type one.
Because I think that the waythat Danny has shared about
that.
Um, throughout the time thatI've known her, husband's super
helpful.
Um, just for me to understand alittle bit more of that, that
type, but also to understandsome of the differences between
some of the other subtypes oftype one and that this subtype
that we're going to bediscovering today and coming up,
(01:07):
I have a couple of social ones.
Um, that are going to be on thepodcast, but.
Here's the thing.
If you know any fives, I know Ihaven't had many fives on the
podcast.
Um, but if you know any fiveswho would love to come on the
podcast, or if you've heard themon other podcasts and they know
their type.
please feel free to send them myway, shoot me an email.
And I'd love to interview thembecause it's actually pretty
(01:29):
tricky.
I've asked the number of fives,and they either said no, or I'll
get back to you and never did.
which totally understand totallytheir prerogative, but I also
would love to have a more evenrepresentation of all nine
types.
and we try to do that, but it'strickier than you might expect.
so that's a little caveat there,but today on this podcast with
type one, we talk a lot aboutsome of Danny's aha moments
(01:52):
realizing that, okay, she is atype one, but then that feeling
of I'm not perfect enough to bea perfectionist, which I've
heard from a lot of differentones.
and then perspectives onrelationships within this
subtype, the one-to-one subtype,and then growing up with
negative messaging, what thatdoes to our brains and how we
think about ourselves.
(02:12):
Danny's a type one myself.
I share a little bit about thatas a type three.
and how.
Danny has really used herbackground and some of her
different paths along the way.
Similar to last week's episode,Danny shares a little bit about
her process.
leaving the church and thereligion that she grew up in
and, um, how that process hasopened her eyes and opened her
mind in a lot of ways.
(02:33):
But I also think it's reallyhelpful because Danny and I
talked about, uh, what'sappropriate.
Um, like how do ones definethat?
And if you are one, I'm curious,um, you know, how you define
that for yourself?
What is appropriate mean of howdo you determine if something's
appropriate?
Because we talked about thatversus image, um, and how.
You know, threes have thistendency to morph into like the
(02:55):
perfect image.
Um, and so there can be thatsame perfectionism, but it's
really about.
Changing the self, whereas.
For one it's really about beingappropriate.
Um, and it comes from a littlebit of a different lens.
And so Danny explains that fromher perspective.
So.
You can find everything, Dannyat deep waters, enneagram.com or
her Instagram deep watersEnneagram.
(03:16):
Um, so Danny Cooper is acertified Enneagram teacher,
coach, and totally biasedcheerleader for individuals,
couples, and teams who want tofind out who they really are and
grow beyond the armor of theirEnneagram types.
She is the author of the book,the Enneagram for Christian
couples, which came out in 2022and her life's work is learning
how to love herself as a messy,imperfect, and absolutely enough
(03:38):
human person.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Danny
Cooper.
Steph Barron Hall (03:44):
Danny Cooper, welcome to the podcast.
Dani Cooper (03:46):
Thanks, Steph.
It's so fun to be here.
Steph Barron Hall (03:49):
Yeah, I'm glad to get to talk with you
about the Enneagram today,especially your type.
And I have to say, I haven't hadvery many Enneagram Ones on the
podcast yet, actually, that havebeen published.
I've been recording theepisodes, but I've found Ones
and Fives to be the trickiest toactually really find people who
want to talk about that.
Dani Cooper (04:11):
So you record them and then something happens where
it doesn't, doesn't getpublished?
Steph Barron Hall (04:16):
Well, no, they're just like in the
pipeline.
They're
Dani Cooper (04:18):
Okay.
I see.
I'm picturing one going like,wait, actually, I think that was
awful.
And I have all of these thingsI'd like to change.
So can you please not publishthat?
I
Steph Barron Hall (04:29):
That did happen one time and I was like,
no, it sounds great.
Like, let's just, let's just doit, you know?
Dani Cooper (04:33):
Good,
Steph Barron Hall (04:34):
Um, so love to hear first off about who you
are, um, your background and howyou got interested into the
Enneagram.
Dani Cooper (04:46):
Okay.
Well, let's see, whenever anyoneasks like, who are you?
It's really hard to know whereto start, because like we're all
a lot of things.
I think of myself as someonewho's learning to be more her
real self and the trainingground for that is, um, I'm a
(05:08):
mom.
I, um, someone who loves natureand finds a ton of therapy
outside and in the sunshine.
Um, I love plants and animalsand, um, I've been married for a
long time.
It would be better if I knew theexact number, but like, I got
married, we've been married like27 years, which is crazy to say
(05:31):
you've done something for 27years.
So, and, um, you know, I loveconnecting people.
With who they are to, and so myown personal journey has been
like, how do I get to know myreal self?
And that has spilled over intolike, everyone should really
know who they truly are.
And, and so the Enneagram cameinto my life at a really
(05:56):
interesting time because I wason staff at a church as a
worship leader and I led worshipthere for like 17 years.
Um, as I was raising my kidsand, um, figuring out faith, and
I was a big part of that church,uh, for a long time.
And then, um, as churches oftengo, there were hills and
(06:20):
valleys, and, um, I was startinga descent into a, like,
deconstruction place, a placewhere I was really wondering,
um, if all the things that I'vebeen believing and I'm using, I
don't know if I need to I don'tknow.
Um, air quotes, but, like, I wasquestioning some of those
beliefs and so in a staffmeeting, um, we were doing, uh,
(06:45):
a team training type thing andthe road back to you across, um,
across my desk and, um, Istarted reading it and it wasn't
my 1st.
So, dipped into any a gram pool.
In fact, it had been many yearsbefore, but I sort of put it
aside because I'm like, well, Imean, it's not in the Bible.
And so maybe this is sketchy.
(07:07):
And so I kind of put it off tothe side.
Then when it came back, kind ofnicely packaged in a, you know,
a Christian publisher and putthis out, it felt like it had
more credence and I could havesome safety in exploring it.
So as an Enneagram one, I thinkthe structure of, um, and the
(07:28):
belief system that wasundergirding everything, um,
Prevented me from seeing theEnneagram until that moment and
so then it kind of opened up thedoor to reading about it.
And then, of course, peopleoften describe it, uh, you know,
reading the type one was like,Okay, why does that sound too
real right now.
(07:49):
So, um, that's sort of how Ifound my type and the journey
that I took to get there.
Steph Barron Hall (07:54):
Yeah, wow.
Um, yeah, it's kind ofinteresting that you mentioned
that because I think that that'ssomething that a lot of
Christians do struggle with thatthe Enneagram, not all like I
think that obviously there areso many different, um, shades
and colors of, of Christianity,of course, but, um, I have heard
that a lot.
And in fact, people DMing melike the Bible says this is
(08:17):
wrong.
And, you know, that sorts of,And of course, the Bible doesn't
say that the Enneagram is wrong,but
Dani Cooper (08:23):
No, but people make that leap, don't they?
They're like, what are youdoing?
You know, it's a slippery slope.
Don't you know that sort ofmentality,
Steph Barron Hall (08:31):
right.
And I think I can understandthat in a sense, like I
understand the fear of likestraying into like a forbidden
territory and becoming corruptsomehow because we can't trust
ourselves or whatever.
But I appreciate that you wereable to kind of connect with it
because you were able to kind oflook at these other cues of
(08:53):
like, my church is talking aboutthis, like, it's from Zondervan,
etc.
And yeah, so it kind of allowedyou to be like, okay, well,
maybe it's all right.
Dani Cooper (09:03):
And so I'm grateful that, um, you know, Enneagram
crossed over.
Into the Christian circle,because I, you know, there isn't
a person that I have ever met orknow of that couldn't benefit
from understanding themselvesmore deeply.
And if you want to take it froma faith perspective, it's like,
(09:26):
um, you know, I used to loveJohn Calvin when I was, um, in
the Presbyterian church and, um,he's like, you know, if you
really want to know God, youshould get to know yourself
without knowledge of self.
There is no knowledge of God.
And so I really honestly believethat that understanding and I
definitely still have a conceptof the divine and my faith is
(09:48):
actually stronger having beenbored in the crucible of
deconstruction and reallyparsing out what things, um,
were meaningful to me and reallyhold a held a lot of wisdom
that, um, that that's availableto people who are in a space
situation, whether they'restruggling with it, or whether
they feel really good about it,that this is a place where they
(10:12):
can deepen their knowledge ofthemselves and of the God that
they follow.
Steph Barron Hall (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, that's such a beautiful
perspective.
I'm curious if for you there,when you found your type, there
were any like light bulbmoments?
Or was it like, Oh, yeah, thatchecks out.
Dani Cooper (10:28):
Yeah, a lot of it checked out, um, the inner
critic for me was reallyinteresting, because I think
most ones would agree thatyou're not like, you know, that
there's this really mean, um,voice in your head, but you're
not.
Like, you think it's just normaland everyone has it and, um, you
(10:49):
know, everyone has a voiceberating them all the time and
telling them how much betterthey could have done.
And, and, and reading about itin the Enneagram, it felt really
great, but it was shocking whenI realized that others don't
struggle with that so much.
So that was one of the things Ireally resonated with, um, at
the outset and then became likecurious about, like, wow, well.
(11:11):
What would it be like withoutthat voice or what do I do with
that voice because I've justbeen believing it, you know, up
until now and wait, there's adifferent way.
And so I think that's whatEnneagram unlocks for all of us.
Wait, there's a different way.
I thought this was the way.
This is the lens I see rightthrough.
These are the ways I feel safein the world.
(11:32):
But understanding that thatvoice wasn't necessarily on my
side all the time didn'tnecessarily get me where I
thought it was getting me.
I thought that was a really agood place to work, but it was
difficult for me.
I named my inner critic.
I like rebuke her to use achurchy word, but like, you
(11:54):
know, I kind of had a terrible.
Feeling toward her or that partof me when I first discovered it
until I recognize that you know,the harder you fight something,
the more it tends to persist.
And so, um, yeah, I thinkstarting with the inner critic
was a, was a good place for meto work as a 1.
Now, something I did notresonate with was, um, just like
(12:17):
being totally perfectionistic inall areas of life, you know,
when you put the nameperfectionist on someone.
For me, that feels so heavy.
And I don't even really like touse that term because it's like,
my standards are already sohigh, you don't need to reaffirm
that that's the goal for me bycalling me that name.
(12:37):
Right.
And so, um, I, you know, like,I'm messy.
Basically, I was like, well, I'mthe worst one.
Like, I'm the most, I'm thebiggest failure of a one because
I'm imperfect in this way, inthis way, in this way, and I
know other ones could probablyagree with that.
Although some, I think, reallyenjoy the fact that they're
(12:58):
perfectionistic, but most thatI've found like a term like
reformer or improver, somethinglike that.
I think that's really our heartis to see the things that could
be reformed and improved and.
But our energy behind that.
So those are some of the thingsthat stuck out to me, first of
all, and then, you know, maybebeing a little critical of
(13:20):
others to I, I, I think thatthat was another place that I
started paying more attentionto.
And, um, yeah, that can bereally tough to see some of the
darker side of your type.
When you read it as well.
Steph Barron Hall (13:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of funny becauseI've heard one say I'm not
perfect enough to be aperfectionist.
Just like I've heard three sayI'm not, you know, um,
Dani Cooper (13:44):
That's all enough to me.
Steph Barron Hall (13:45):
enough to be a three, like, and it's just we
have these really incrediblyhigh standards for ourselves
and, um, it's really, that'swhere our attention is.
Um,
Dani Cooper (14:04):
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (14:06):
and I think that that's also, you know, what
you're just saying is one of thereasons I don't really use the,
the monikers.
And my teaching of the Enneagrambecause, um, I think they
pigeonhole us in a way that'snot really useful.
Dani Cooper (14:22):
Right.
And they're just, you know, ifwe're going to find our type via
the motivation, we don't want touse a descriptor to do that.
That's everything that we'retrying to fight against, like,
Oh, ones are like this.
And of course we all think aboutthat, but the motivation is the
thing that sets the Enneagramsystem apart from some other
ones that really do just look.
Primarily at behaviors versuswhat's going on behind the
(14:45):
behaviors.
So yeah, I like I like removingthe names as well.
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (14:53):
I think that one thing that's kind of
interesting too, and I've heardyou talk about this a little
bit, is that once you found yoursubtype, that was even more
insightful into, well, why don'tI really resonate with this kind
of stereotypical image of theone?
Dani Cooper (15:09):
Yeah, so come to find out.
Um, I pretty much figured outthat since I forget to eat since
I, you know, well, I'm prettyself forgetting when it comes to
my own body.
The self preservation subtypedidn't fit for me, nor did.
Just the idea of of being acooler type person.
(15:33):
I tend to have a lot of energyand I tend to have a lot of, um,
I think I just feel vivacious.
I'm somebody who likes toconnect and I think I have a
warmer feeling when I meetsomeone face to face.
And so the cooler types of onesthat are more maybe rigid or
buttoned up or reserved.
(15:53):
Those didn't fit me completely.
I mean, there are scenarioswhere those sides of me come
out, but ultimately, I tend tobe a warmer person that likes to
connect with others.
Um, and so, and, and theintensity with that, that comes
along with it really geared metoward the sexual subtype of
one.
(16:15):
Um, yeah, so like when I meetsomeone for the first time, and
I love people to not that mostones don't love people, they,
you know, they do, but I likewant to know you, I want you to
tell me your story, I want tolike really connect.
And so I think that that thattipped me off to the fact that
the one to one or sexual subtypewas more where I lived, and then
(16:36):
finding out that that's thecountertype or the one that
doesn't look as much like theone that clicked for me.
It's like, okay, well, That'swhy my house is messier than my,
my social subtype friend or my,um, self pres one friend.
And, um, you know, it actuallylet some pressure off for me to
not have to live quite as far upto that standard.
(17:00):
There are other ones that I putmyself to, but that one, you
know, if we can find one littlearea to let the steam off,
that's really good for us.
Steph Barron Hall (17:08):
Yeah,
Dani Cooper (17:09):
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (17:10):
yeah, that makes sense.
And I think, um, that's why Ilike the subtypes a lot too,
because even in my own story,like learning, okay, yeah, I'm
the sexual subtype as well.
Um, it makes so much more sense.
And I think that sometimes thatI'm not successful enough to be
a three story.
I'm like, Oh, I can see howbecause of my subtype stacking,
(17:34):
my attention is not.
on that same thing.
Um, and so it, it really helpsme to understand that aspect of
myself.
Dani Cooper (17:44):
I, um, so the fact that the, the sexual one, um,
really zooms in to like, um,give a lot of focus and
attention to maybe like theirprimary relationship was another
factor in me saying, yeah,that's me.
Um, because so my husband and I,I said, we've been married for a
(18:05):
long time.
And, um, he's definitely when Iread that, like, they're.
Their partners can be theirlittle improvement project.
I know that when he read that hewas like, uh huh.
Yeah.
Now, you know, it's in black andwhite.
This feels really hardsometimes.
And so that was, that was hardfor me, but there is this
idealistic vision of if you justdo this, this and this, and we
(18:29):
work together on this, we couldhave this amazing, wonderful,
um, legacy of like the mostclose and committed relationship
ever.
And so of course, our instinctsare such that the thing that we
focus on the most is what bringsus the most feeling of safety.
You know, like if, if that partof my life is okay, then
(18:52):
everything else is okay.
And that bears out for sure.
Like if things are off in mymarriage, like if we're having
an issue that we're workingthrough, um, it's hard to do
life.
Everything else in life justfeels.
Not as important.
Does that feel the same to youwhen you're some type two?
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (19:12):
Um, and I think too, I think one of the
things that's really interestingis just learning to navigate
some of that idealism as well,because I do think that all
sexual subtypes have that, um,of like idealizing their
significant other or theirrelationship or like this, you
know, ideal romantic connectionthat they could achieve.
(19:33):
Um, and I think one thing thatcan be hard is.
When you're not getting the sameheat that you want back from
that other person, it can feellike I'm just not important to
you, or like, you're not likedazzled by me in the way that I
want you to be.
And realizing that is so helpfulbecause it's like, oh, it's just
like a different perspective.
(19:54):
Probably they show importancebased on their instincts, you
know, um, and, and those things,but like wanting that level of
like.
Like he, you know, um,
Dani Cooper (20:05):
Yeah, the heat, the heat is where it's at.
When we feel the heat, then it'slike, all right, I'm good.
We can relax and, and feel likethings are okay.
Yeah.
And then like, For dialing it infor oneness, any, so the flaws
in my attention to what ismessed up, what needs fixing can
be really hard when it comes tothat.
And I'm sure hard to be therecipient of like, we need to
(20:29):
fix that.
But it almost feels as though asexual one, like the flaws that
my people have, um, will somehowreflect back on me.
And then things will crumble andthings just don't feel quite as.
Secure.
So some of that's really hard toadmit, but, you know, knowing
these things about ourselves andlike me being really honest
(20:53):
about that gave.
Um, you know, my husband and Ihave something to talk about and
like, why it's happening andwhat sorts of feelings are
happening in me when I want toreform what he's doing.
And it's just like you said,it's like, it's a fear, like,
why isn't the heat there?
Why don't I feel the intensityand the connection?
(21:14):
Like, what's wrong?
This isn't how I feel like itshould be.
And so Just like any other pieceof information that you find out
about yourself, there's a reasonfor it and when we can get to
those levels, then we can relateand talk through it a little bit
better.
So, and yeah, I, I find thatwhen I'm out of balance, meaning
(21:35):
I'm leaning really far into mysexual subtype.
You know, with all the rules ofthree, with all the triads and
the enneagram, we know that whenwe're leaning too far into one
of those, whether it's ourcenter of intelligence or
instinct or any of those triads,um, that that's, that's going to
create an imbalance actually.
(21:56):
And so the sign for that, forme, when I'm not feeling the
heat, and then things arecopying, cropping up is that I
feel a lot, a lot of jealousy,um, and a lot of
competitiveness.
And so, that's really roughbecause, um, you know, as a
woman, I'm feeling competitive.
(22:17):
I'm feeling jealous.
I'm like, well, where is theattention going?
Is it?
And so then looking for any ofthe cracks, like, oh, did a
person just walk by and, and hiseyes went up to it?
Like as a woman, it's like, ohmy God, this is terrible.
Then everything flares up.
And so I think it's important tonotice the indicators of the
(22:39):
instinct being out of balanceand that's mine.
Jealousy.
Steph Barron Hall (22:43):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Well, and I think that's reallyisn't that one of the names for
the sexual one.
So
Dani Cooper (22:51):
I like zeal, but yeah, there is a lot of, I mean,
you're zealous about reallyneeding, um, the focus to, to be
on you so that you can feel likeyou're okay.
Like, what's wrong with me ifhe's not there, it can be really
easy to personalize that.
And yeah,
Steph Barron Hall (23:09):
I think one thing that's important here too,
though, is that we're not sayinglike, okay, now you, the
partner.
You need to show up and do allthese things and fit this mold.
It's really more so that, yeah,we want, maybe want to say that,
but it's, it's more so thatwe're like, okay, I'm
acknowledging this in myself andnoticing how I can work on that
within myself, not alwaysdemanding that my partner, you
(23:35):
know, serve all of these
Dani Cooper (23:37):
Yep.
Uh huh.
Right.
And that's the healthy way touse that information.
Um, again, I mean, I can't saythat I have used that
information in the healthiestway, you know, and that's the
work.
It's the noticing it's the whereyour response gets you like
there's different ways I canrespond to when I feel that
happening.
(23:57):
And the benefit of Reallythinking about it and really
understanding what's below thatand what emotions are driving
that can give you so muchfreedom.
I always say to my clients,like, with awareness, you get to
choose without awareness, youjust react, but the choice that
we get when we have theinformation to improve the
(24:19):
response.
And, you know, I love theimprovement is, is really
powerful.
So, yeah, I think 1 of thethings that.
Um, I think I've seen myselfmore in the social subtype
earlier and in phases of mylife.
Um, COVID, I think, changed someof that too, where I wanted to
(24:45):
just be at home with my faithpeople in my little cocoon.
Right.
Um, and so I think.
I think that I see some of the,the social aspects in me too.
And, um, that would be just likewanting to teach, wanting to,
um, you know, always be doingthe right thing, like, like not
(25:08):
be a hypocrite, like not befound to you.
Be doing the things that I saythat I'm again, um, being pretty
sensitive to critique that sortof stuff, um, from that social
aspect of it too.
And so I think it's reallyimportant for people to
understand that your subtypes,even though you have a focus of
(25:28):
one, you have a basic, um,instinct that's going to be
highest in your stacking thatit's not uncommon to go between
those or to even have adifferent subtype based on.
What's going on in specific erasof your life, and, um, they can
be really fluid or they can staystatic for a long time.
(25:51):
Can you do you see that to betrue as well?
I know it's true for me.
Steph Barron Hall (25:55):
Yeah, I think it probably, I don't know, there
are so many different schools ofthought on it, um, but I
Dani Cooper (26:01):
What's your experience?
Steph Barron Hall (26:02):
I think that, I'm like trying to think, I
haven't exactly mapped it, but Ican always see, um, the sexual
instincts in, in the sense oflike, uh, being a Raneo talk
about how, um, There was a lotof, like, a lot of the time
people who have the sexualinstinct were, like, parentified
(26:24):
in a really specific way, um,and I can see that even in my
childhood.
So I, I really see, like, someof those things.
Um, so I'm, I'm not sure, I, Ido think, though, that it's not
necessarily, like, always astatic stacking, like, um,
Sometimes for clarity, we, weput these like little layers,
(26:45):
you know, but I was just makinggraphics for my book and I was
like, Oh, actually I need tolike warp this.
Right.
So it's like, instead of beinglike clear, clear layers, it's
like, sometimes there's, youknow, a lot of the, that top
instinct and sometimes the otherone comes up to the top and that
sort of thing.
So I think that that makessense.
Dani Cooper (27:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, I can see that in my life,but I think the thing that lands
me back and like, no, you'redefinitely stuck in the, um,
sexual instinct is tension thatI'm always feeling between being
rigid, being controlled, beingappropriate from my oneness.
(27:28):
Um, trying to keep that angerwhere it lives, right?
Like the sexual subtype will letthat anger out for sure, but my
oneness is always telling methat that's not appropriate.
That's not okay to be angry.
Um, but like this tensionbetween the control and the
freedom in me, there's so muchin me and the sexual subtype
(27:50):
wants more freedom, wants moremovement, wants more energy.
Juice.
And the one is trying to like,mitigate that as often as it can
so that you can stay within yourbounds.
So I think that, you know,there's like this push and pull
or this tug of war going onbetween those two, two sides of
that, you know, because it'slike you get too free and you're
(28:13):
gonna be bad.
And so it's, it's a, it's astrange sort of dance that's
going on even in the realm of,you know, people sometimes feel
uncomfortable talking about thesexual subtype.
Um, and prefer to use the termone to one, but I think that
there is a component ofsexuality and sensuality to it
(28:34):
for us, because as humans, wehave all of these, these
instincts, and they're all veryimportant biologically and
emotionally and physically andall of the things for our
survival as humans.
And so I think that there is.
In the same way a self prezperson might have, like, this
swinging between, um, like,dieting and then binging, that
(28:56):
sort of thing, a sexual subtype,I think, also has this sort of
sexual swing, too, where it'slike, no, I want to be free, I
want to feel my body, pleasureis a thing, um, and, like, no,
you need to repress that, what'sgonna happen if you do let
yourself be free.
So, um, I've, I've found, andI've done some reading on it
(29:18):
about how, like, identity is animportant piece of this too,
where it's like finding, um,finding security in yourself as
a physical person with sexualdesires.
And that's not bad.
Some of us have just reallygrown up with messaging related
to the body and related tosexuality that it really needs
(29:38):
to be managed or else.
Right.
Does that make sense?
Steph Barron Hall (29:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I totally got a lot of thosemessages too.
I think I was kind of like,okay, well, I don't know about
that.
Dani Cooper (29:50):
But if you were a one you might be like, Oh my
gosh, this is another place Ineed to put myself in jail, or
else something terrible willhappen and I will be as bad as I
think I am, you know,
Steph Barron Hall (30:03):
Yeah.
Exactly.
And I think it's kind ofinteresting as well to, to think
about like this concept ofpurity culture overall and how,
um, different people in my lifehave responded so differently to
it.
Um, and how even just thismorning, my husband and I were
having this conversation abouthow our instincts are at play
(30:23):
and the way that we respond todifferent issues.
Um, and yeah, it's just sointeresting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dani Cooper (30:32):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting too.
I can, I think I look back, um,even like as a young, like I had
a wild period before I likebecame a church person.
I grew up in the Catholicchurch, um, and was pretty
relaxed about it.
I would say I grew up in thechoir loft of a Catholic church
because my grandma was always atchurch.
She always sang on Sundays andactually I have really great
(30:55):
memories about that, but.
Becoming like a born again,Kristen was something where it's
like, oh my goodness, like thatwas after my wild period.
And it's like, now I know theanswer.
Now I know the things not to do.
I had this safety zone of rulesaround me where I could repent
of all of that wild behavior.
(31:16):
Um, and be good.
Now I had this structure aroundme and and so yeah, that's a
it's a crazy place to navigatebecause, you know, you are a
human with a body in in thisworld.
And every person has such aunique unique experience and all
the messaging that you're takingin is so confusing.
(31:39):
And you're making all of thesedecisions as a young person and
trying to figure out life.
I mean.
At my age, I'm still like, wow,I'm still figuring out life,
but, um, to know yourself andto, I always am amazed at when
young people are learning theirEnneagram type and getting to
take that wisdom with themearlier than I did through the
(32:01):
rest of their life.
I think it's It's such a gift,because when you know who you
are, you can decide whichmessages you let shape who you
are, and you understand theimpact that they have on you in
a different way than if you'rejust absorbing.
And, um, that's where purityculture can really do a lot of
damage for sure.
Steph Barron Hall (32:23):
Yeah.
I'm curious because, so I, Iheard B, Beatrice just say, um,
that ones, even though they'rein the body center and with the
body types, we talk a lot aboutbeing instinctual, you know, but
ones are, she calls them antiinstinctual, like the, the body
knowing is rising, but thentheir head is like, Nope, we're
(32:45):
going to cap that.
And like, Yeah.
you know, put a lid on it kindof thing.
Um, but then you have the veryinstinctual sexual instinct with
that body type.
And I'm curious what that islike for you as a one, because
you know, you're like, I have tobe logical and rational and
reasonable, but I have theseforces that feel entirely
(33:08):
different from that.
Dani Cooper (33:09):
Totally.
Yes.
It's a, it's like abattleground.
I'm not, I'm not exaggeratingwhen it feels like a constant
battle to, I mean, you say wewant to be rational.
We want to be logical.
We think of ourselves that way.
And that yet we're thinkingrepressed.
When you're, when you're lookingat, you know, our stackings of,
(33:29):
of centers of intelligence, andthat's due to the intercredit
getting involved and justskewing everything and, and make
casting you in a bad light sothat if something happens where
you do make a mistake, youalready knew you were bad.
So it's like protective in areally strange way.
As far as the body goes, um, tohave a body feels so vulnerable.
(33:56):
When you're a body type, and asa person, and as a woman and
living in our culture, I mean,so it's like all of these things
are stacked up to an impossibledegree where life and body types
to feel it.
Like, life is just so much, andwe feel that in our bodies.
It's just the too muchness oflife is a burden.
(34:20):
And so the instincts that wefeel.
We have to train ourselves asone to accept that and to
welcome that knowing because ifour body is bad, if we have a
culture or a purity culturewhere it's like, this is this,
this is where you can do themost damage.
If you do the wrong things withyour body, then, um, that's
(34:41):
really dangerous.
And so anything coming from thebody feels, first of all, like,
you can't control it.
I mean, a lot of ones will bevery self controlled in how they
move, how they dress, whatthey're eating, how they're
acting, remember, posture,appropriateness is everything.
I don't want to present myselfin a way physically that is
(35:05):
going to cause me shame.
There's a real big shamecomponent to it too.
So that's a huge disconnect forone where it's like, I have this
gut knowing and it's reallystrong.
It really can be verytrustworthy too.
But getting over the fact thatI'm a human with a body and
(35:25):
that's not a bad thing, um, is,is a big, it's a big deal.
It's a lot of work and it's notsomething that I've mastered
whatsoever, but it's somethingthat I've got my eye on.
It's something that I have topay attention to every day.
So yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (35:43):
something you said, was really interesting to
me.
And I, I've been wanting to asksomebody about this.
Dani Cooper (35:49):
Okay.
Steph Barron Hall (35:49):
and you can, this is like totally off the
cuff.
So you can just be like, no, I'mnot prepared to talk about that.
That's fine.
But, so something with ones islike about being appropriate,
right?
You said appropriateness iseverything.
So it's about like beingappropriate, being like,
correct.
like conducting yourself in amanner, which is.
To be seen as appropriate, butit's not an image thing as much
(36:11):
as like, for example, for athree, there's that chameleon
ask thing.
And I'm curious how you can fromthe inside determine, how is
this appropriateness kind offocus not about.
image.
Dani Cooper (36:29):
That is such an awesome question.
I think that it comes frominstinct.
I think it goes back to thatintuition, where it's like, in
the way that a three knows whothey need to be when they walk
into a room, a one has an innatesense of.
(36:52):
Or they think they do of how tomake themselves be good, right?
We're always trying to just begood.
We're trying to not, impactthings in a negative way or a
flawed way.
So I think it comes from, thegut.
I do.
I mean, but it's a controlthing.
(37:13):
That's a great question becauseyou're right.
It's not about image, although Ithink it's a little about image,
knowing the confines, knowingwhere my body stops and where
the world begins and where itstarts and where the world
begins.
I think it's part of that.
And I think that it shows thatwe know we could have an impact.
(37:33):
It's kind of like, and thissounds weird.
And if this doesn't happen toyou, where you're standing on
the top of a tall building andyou're thinking I could jump,
like I have that within me to beable to impact something or be
driving and be like, what wouldhappen if I just swerved?
I can affect my environment.
I think it's what I'm saying.
Like we have this knowledge thatwith our bodies, we can make an
(37:56):
impact.
On the world around us, andwe're afraid of what that impact
could do.
And I think it, I think it stemsfrom that knowledge and the
ability to make sure that we areright.
And that's going to, um, youknow, like, think of the one,
the one.
Place in the world is to seewhat could be improved.
(38:18):
The best side of a 1 is like, wecan see all the goodness and all
the wonderfulness that the worldand the people and it could look
like what it should look like.
And so us being able to do ourown little part to impact that
or not impact, I think, is whatfeels like so much pressure to a
one.
Steph Barron Hall (38:38):
where do you get the information about what
is right?
Is that, uh, dependent on thecircumstance and the people that
you're around, or is it moreinternal?
Mm hmm.
Dani Cooper (38:50):
I think it's internal, but the rules around
us scaffold that for us.
Steph Barron Hall (38:57):
hmm.
Mm
Dani Cooper (38:59):
They make us feel safe and so we'll find places
where we align.
And we'll bristle in placeswhere we don't, unless we're in
a place that we want to, wherewe feel like we should mold for
this reason or for another,like, for example, you need to
change your ways you need to getbetter, and you need to improve
(39:23):
yourself, that will help usadhere to a new set of
structures,
Steph Barron Hall (39:28):
hmm.
Dani Cooper (39:29):
know what I mean, but there are times also where
we will be Really stubborn withour internal understanding of
how things should be.
So, it depends, but differenttactics work on us, like we
talked about purity culture andcertain messaging around.
Religious institutions, thosehave a way of breaking through
and breaking down people'sintuitions or understandings of.
(39:54):
Who and what they need to be aswell, not even a 1, not even,
you know, 1 can be strongagainst that all the time.
So.
But I think ones really have asense that comes from inside of
them about what good, how thingsshould be done, how things
should be
Steph Barron Hall (40:13):
Yeah.
The should.
Should.
Yeah.
Um, I'm curious if when you wentthrough this big change in your
faith and your spiritual life,um, if you ever felt lost, like,
oh my gosh, I don't have thescaffolding anymore.
I don't have the structureanymore.
Now what?
What is my moral code?
What is my ethical perspective?
Dani Cooper (40:35):
Yeah.
Um, again, I feel like I had aninner compass and boiled down.
I think that spirituality.
The purest form teaches thatthere is a spirit.
There's a compass inside eachone of us.
It has different names, but, um,my journey has ended me and I'll
back up in a second to the placewhere everyone has that we can
(40:58):
trust that we don't need to fearfor anybody else having that we
can just pay attention toourselves.
And that's enough.
But back then, definitely.
I think I knew I think the innercompass is what Put me into
deconstruction because thingswere not adding up for me
anymore, you know, in relationto how we treat other people and
(41:22):
how, um, you know, the mandateto love one another was being
walked out in practice.
But um, I definitely did feellost at the check marks of like,
if I do this and I do this and Ido this, I'm okay.
Those go away and it's back tofreedom, the freedom that, that
(41:46):
I'm wanting and getting tuggedtowards.
Freedom is also very scarybecause it feels like there's
also a million ways to go wrongunless you're, um, unless you're
not afraid of that.
And obviously the one I'm afraidof going wrong or going astray,
plus all of the messaging thatI've had about how easy it was
for your foot to slip.
(42:07):
Or for you to stumble or slidedown the slippery slope.
So it was very disorienting atfirst, um, and even more so for
my husband, because I began thejourney first.
And that was, that was wild forhim because he, I mean, the
first time I was like, you know,I'm just not really sure that,
(42:28):
that a physical actual placelike hell exists.
And I remember exactly where wewere like we're driving on the
highway and he turned to me andyou would have thought that I
like he didn't even recognize melike I was like, Wow, I just
rocked his world telling himthat just because I had
questions.
And so as a sick, you know, hewas like, No, I need to
(42:50):
structure where you goingwithout me and we were on this
journey together now and he hasmore questions than I ever did
now right as a sick.
But it was a very right.
Steph Barron Hall (43:01):
can't stop
Dani Cooper (43:02):
Oh, my God.
I love it.
I remember asking him.
I'm like reading in thebeginning, like it says six is
asked a lot of questions.
He goes, Do I know?
And I was like, Oh, my goodness,but I like that Pringles fan
thing.
So yeah, I mean, it was verydisconcerting.
But, um, yeah, I think mostpeople have that experience
(43:25):
because you're losing a lot.
It's very scary to, to chart acourse that you've not, that
you're not following a lot ofpeople on, you know, we.
Um, you lose your community alot of times.
People, you know, look at youlike you've grown horns, you
know, or like you're, you'vebeen dabbling in something and,
(43:47):
you know, you're on the wrongpath or whatever.
So that can be very, very scary.
I don't, I don't care who youare.
So.
I'm really grateful that moreand more that people are finding
community and, um, you know,refinding faith to like the end
of deconstruction doesn't alwayslook like you take everything
you believed in and chuck it inthe garbage can.
(44:09):
It can for people.
And like I said, I, I, I, Ithink that the divine and God
really trust our own journey,right?
Otherwise we wouldn't haveindividual journeys and we
wouldn't have individual soulsand experiences.
And I think that we do eachother.
Um, a service and really loveeach other by trusting one
(44:30):
another with their own, our ownjourneys as well.
So, yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (44:35):
Have you read, um, The Dance of the
Dissident Daughter by Sue MonkKidd?
Dani Cooper (44:38):
No, but I'm reading the book of longings right now.
Steph Barron Hall (44:42):
Okay.
Dani Cooper (44:43):
I'm ready to read that one next.
Okay, cool.
Steph Barron Hall (44:46):
Yeah, it's just about her process.
I, I'm like 60 percent through.
I've been like reading it littleby little because it's, there's
just a lot to think about forme.
But it's about her process of,of leaving her, like she was a
good, proper Southern lady, likea church lady, and then like
leaving that process.
And, um, I just hear so muchsimilarity.
(45:08):
She feels very Nine ish to me inher story, but I don't really
know.
Much about her.
So I don't know,
Dani Cooper (45:15):
If she listens to this, she should let us know
because we would love to knowthat.
Steph Barron Hall (45:18):
my kid, we would love to talk with you.
Dani Cooper (45:22):
That'd be so awesome.
Steph Barron Hall (45:24):
Um, yeah.
Okay.
So that's really helpful.
I think to think about too,because, um, with what you're
talking about with your husbandand walking through that, like a
one and a six, right?
You're just pulling the rug outfrom under you both.
Um, and how destabilizing thatcan be, but then you have to
learn to swim and you have tolearn how to, it's weird, like
mixed metaphor.
(45:44):
I'm like throwing out here, butlike, you have to, yeah.
Learn how to figure that outtogether and individually, but
Dani Cooper (45:52):
Right.
Yeah.
I like how you said that, like,figuring it out together is
definitely a piece of it.
I was thinking more of my ownindividual journey.
But when you're in apartnership, and one person, you
know, takes a little detour,it's like, I mean, I, my husband
Shane definitely said, I didn'tknow, I remember you playing an
(46:13):
episode of the Bible for normalpeople for me.
And I was like, Yeah.
What on earth?
This is like heresy, right?
And so there's this takeoffperiod where, again, we'll keep
talking about the value of beingable to communicate with your
partner.
That's like the biggest thing.
You can, if you can talk aboutit, then you can work through
(46:35):
it, or at least gainunderstanding of the other
person's side.
Man, we need some more of thatin the world right now to just
be able to have opposingviewpoints that sit at the same
table and, and just share yourfeelings and, and honor each
other's place where they arebecause we're all at different
places.
So, it's important to be able tonavigate that for sure.
Steph Barron Hall (46:58):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, well, I know that you'vebeen working with clients
Through the Enneagram for a fewyears now And I'm curious if
there are things that you knownow or that you recognize now
about this journey about selfdiscovery about the Enneagram
about Yourself that you didn'tknow before you started working
with people in this capacity
Dani Cooper (47:18):
Yeah, man.
I've learned so much.
Um, I remember before I began orlike having my first few
coaching clients and thinking Ijust I had to be perfect to show
up and to be of use to thepeople that I was going to have
the honor of sitting acrossfrom.
Um, and so, uh, I don't believethat anymore, and I'm starting
(47:39):
to embrace, like, it's, it's theimperfections in our humanity
that people actually relate toand connect with best, and my
goal whenever I'm with, um,another person in a coaching
capacity or wherever is justthat.
The person that I'm with feelslike I'm seeing them and hearing
them and holding space for theirstory.
(48:01):
So that was one thing I had tolearn is that I didn't have to
be perfect or just some idea ofthere wasn't a should involved,
right?
If I could hold space and listenwell and really care for that
person, that that, um, would beenough and that would be good.
So and I that I didn't have tofix anything.
I think when I first startedcoaching, I thought I needed to
(48:23):
have all these answers and thenI needed to have all these
solutions ready for someone thatwas having an issue.
And, um, coaching is much moreabout hearing and seeing that
person and drawing the wisdomout from them that's already
there.
I truly believe any person thatcomes to see me.
Really kind of knows what theirnext steps are and knows these
(48:46):
things about themselves.
It's just it takes a coach toask the right questions so that
they can arrive at that nextstep or that wisdom for
themselves because that's whenit actually makes an impact on
us is when we can draw it outfrom the deep waters of our own
souls.
So definitely learned that.
And, um, I coach a lot of ones.
(49:06):
I really like coaching ones.
I don't know if you have thatexperience with threes, but it's
really powerful to relate tosomeone on on a level of type
where it's like, Oh, sister, Iknow that pain.
I know that struggle.
And here's what we need to hear.
You know, you're almost coachingyourself as you're
Steph Barron Hall (49:27):
hmm.
Dani Cooper (49:28):
as you're talking to the other person.
So yeah.
I love one on one for sure.
And also I love helping couplescommunicate better too.
So
Steph Barron Hall (49:37):
Yeah.
Dani Cooper (49:38):
really, really an honor to get to do that.
Steph Barron Hall (49:41):
Yeah, absolutely um I'm curious if you
have any practical advice forpeople who are just beginning,
especially if they're ones, buteven if you have something for
all types.
Dani Cooper (49:52):
Do you mean beginning Enneagram work or?
Yeah.
Hmm.
When we find type, um, I thinkthat some of us, you know,
there's a couple differentreactions to it where it's like
some of us want to push it asideand like not want to get tagged
or pinned down by a type.
(50:13):
And then there are those of uswho are like, Oh my gosh, that's
so me.
And then we, we like live inthrough the aspects of type.
And I view finding your type as,um, Yeah.
Finding the place where you'rethe most stuck and so like
you're looking at your lifethrough a knothole in a fence,
(50:33):
you're just getting this reallylimited view of all that your
life could be because of thisstory that you crafted as you
know, a little kid about how tonavigate the world with the most
safety and the most, um, youknow, amount of belonging that
you could muster up by youractions.
(50:54):
And so we have long outgrown theneed for that.
And we're thankful topersonality protecting us and
helping us get to where we are.
But just like we've grown out ofthose clothing, we've grown out
of our types too.
And so to be able to startpeeling back the layers.
And, uh, will only lead you to amore full and free expression
(51:17):
of, of who you actually are.
You're not your type, but, um,finding out about your type will
help you see how you've beenreally living into type and that
you're just so much more.
So that's my, that's my firstadvice is learn all you can
apply all, all that you can and,and find how that matches up and
then ask yourself, gosh, do Iwant to keep doing this?
(51:40):
Is there a different way?
How could I expand beyond this?
And I think that's a great wayto start.
Steph Barron Hall (51:46):
Yeah.
That's fantastic advice.
Yeah.
I love it.
Um, okay.
Before we get to our very lasttwo questions, where can people
find you?
What do you want to share withthem?
Do you want to share your book?
What do you want to tell them?
Dani Cooper (51:59):
Hmm.
Sure.
Yeah.
So you can find me on Instagrammainly.
Um, and that's atdeepwatersenneagram.
And also my website isdeepwatersenneagram.
com.
And, um, so that's where I loveto chat with people.
Um, I love to DM and I loveanswering comments, stuff like
that.
Um, I did write a book.
(52:20):
I think it came out in 20, itcame out 2022.
I believe it's called theEnneagram for Christian couples.
I would have rewritten thattitle to the Enneagram for
couples of all types, but therewere certain things that the
publisher wanted on my bookcover.
So, but I would say that's not alot of good practical advice for
(52:41):
partners of any kind.
Um, I even think it's great forinformation about how to get
along with like a parent childrelationship, that sort of
thing.
So, um, yeah, so that's my book.
Um, I do personal coaching,couples coaching, I do team
training, and, um, I lovechatting on podcasts with
(53:02):
friends like you.
Steph Barron Hall (53:03):
Great.
Yeah.
I'd love to have you here.
That's awesome.
I will link everything in theshow notes, of course.
Um, so finally tell me about abook that has helped you refresh
you or shaped you in the lastyear.
Dani Cooper (53:15):
Okay.
So.
This is going to really relate,so I'm reading the Wisdom of
Your Body by Hilary LeanneMcBride, and I read nonfiction
books like reference books, soI'll read a little here and a
little there.
I'm a fiction girl for sure.
I will finish a fiction bookcover to cover, but my
nonfiction books, I have to takein chunks and like digest them
(53:37):
and move it on.
So that's when I keep comingback to, um, as I.
Become more embodied, morecomfortable with having a body
of, um, loving my body ofunderstanding pain, more of
understanding how my emotionsthat I didn't want to feel for
so long, including the angerthat a one harbors, but all the
(53:59):
rest of them to can really lodgein the body and how to move that
through.
So that's been really helpfulfor me.
So that I can embrace having abody and being a human and stop
wishing I was a robot, becausehonestly, that wouldn't be as
fun as it sounds like it wouldbe.
Steph Barron Hall (54:17):
Right.
Dani Cooper (54:18):
It
Steph Barron Hall (54:19):
Yeah, it'd be a little bland.
Dani Cooper (54:21):
can be bland.
Yeah.
So anyway, that's the journey.
And that book has been reallyhelpful to reconnect my
relationship to my relationshipwith my body.
Steph Barron Hall (54:32):
Beautiful.
I love it.
Um, okay.
What is a piece of advice thathas really stuck with you?
Dani Cooper (54:38):
Okay.
And I have to hear this likeevery day, my husband's really
great at reminding me.
Um, when my inner critic isreally loud and my story is
like, Oh, you know, you and mytype is really strong and my
thought, he constantly will sayto me, you're doing better than
you think you are.
And that's really helpful forme.
(55:00):
And I have to think about everyday.
So
Steph Barron Hall (55:03):
for that advice, Shane.
Perfect advice.
Dani Cooper (55:05):
know, right?
I know.
It's so good.
He's got so much wisdom.
Steph Barron Hall (55:09):
Yeah, I love it.
Okay.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me today for this
podcast.
And I really appreciate yousharing everything.
And I think we just need adeeper dive on all of these
deconstruction things we've beenchatting about, uh,
peripherally.
But, um, thanks so much forjoining me.
Dani Cooper (55:27):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Great to be here.
Thanks.
Steph Barron Hall (55:31):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
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Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway
(55:52):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(56:12):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
You're not your type, but, finding out about
(00:03):
your type will help you see howyou've been really living into
type and that you're just somuch more.
Hello, and welcome back to anygram in real life, a podcast
where we explore how to applyour Enneagram knowledge in our
daily lives.
(00:23):
I'm your host Steph barren hall.
And on today's episode, I amtalking with an Enneagram one.
So today I'm meeting with DannyCooper and I've known Danny for
a few years.
We actually met through someEnneagram coaching circles a few
years ago.
And, yeah, we've just stayedconnected and I really loved
Danny's perspective.
And today you're going to hearwhat it's like to be the
(00:44):
one-to-one or the sexual subtypeof type one.
Because I think that the waythat Danny has shared about
that.
Um, throughout the time thatI've known her, husband's super
helpful.
Um, just for me to understand alittle bit more of that, that
type, but also to understandsome of the differences between
some of the other subtypes oftype one and that this subtype
that we're going to bediscovering today and coming up,
(01:07):
I have a couple of social ones.
Um, that are going to be on thepodcast, but.
Here's the thing.
If you know any fives, I know Ihaven't had many fives on the
podcast.
Um, but if you know any fiveswho would love to come on the
podcast, or if you've heard themon other podcasts and they know
their type.
please feel free to send them myway, shoot me an email.
And I'd love to interview thembecause it's actually pretty
(01:29):
tricky.
I've asked the number of fives,and they either said no, or I'll
get back to you and never did.
which totally understand totallytheir prerogative, but I also
would love to have a more evenrepresentation of all nine
types.
and we try to do that, but it'strickier than you might expect.
so that's a little caveat there,but today on this podcast with
type one, we talk a lot aboutsome of Danny's aha moments
(01:52):
realizing that, okay, she is atype one, but then that feeling
of I'm not perfect enough to bea perfectionist, which I've
heard from a lot of differentones.
and then perspectives onrelationships within this
subtype, the one-to-one subtype,and then growing up with
negative messaging, what thatdoes to our brains and how we
think about ourselves.
(02:12):
Danny's a type one myself.
I share a little bit about thatas a type three.
and how.
Danny has really used herbackground and some of her
different paths along the way.
Similar to last week's episode,Danny shares a little bit about
her process.
leaving the church and thereligion that she grew up in
and, um, how that process hasopened her eyes and opened her
mind in a lot of ways.
(02:33):
But I also think it's reallyhelpful because Danny and I
talked about, uh, what'sappropriate.
Um, like how do ones definethat?
And if you are one, I'm curious,um, you know, how you define
that for yourself?
What is appropriate mean of howdo you determine if something's
appropriate?
Because we talked about thatversus image, um, and how.
You know, threes have thistendency to morph into like the
(02:55):
perfect image.
Um, and so there can be thatsame perfectionism, but it's
really about.
Changing the self, whereas.
For one it's really about beingappropriate.
Um, and it comes from a littlebit of a different lens.
And so Danny explains that fromher perspective.
So.
You can find everything, Dannyat deep waters, enneagram.com or
her Instagram deep watersEnneagram.
(03:16):
Um, so Danny Cooper is acertified Enneagram teacher,
coach, and totally biasedcheerleader for individuals,
couples, and teams who want tofind out who they really are and
grow beyond the armor of theirEnneagram types.
She is the author of the book,the Enneagram for Christian
couples, which came out in 2022and her life's work is learning
how to love herself as a messy,imperfect, and absolutely enough
(03:38):
human person.
So without further ado, here'smy conversation with Danny
Cooper.
Steph Barron Hall (03:44):
Danny Cooper, welcome to the podcast.
Dani Cooper (03:46):
Thanks, Steph.
It's so fun to be here.
Steph Barron Hall (03:49):
Yeah, I'm glad to get to talk with you
about the Enneagram today,especially your type.
And I have to say, I haven't hadvery many Enneagram Ones on the
podcast yet, actually, that havebeen published.
I've been recording theepisodes, but I've found Ones
and Fives to be the trickiest toactually really find people who
want to talk about that.
Dani Cooper (04:11):
So you record them and then something happens where
it doesn't, doesn't getpublished?
Steph Barron Hall (04:16):
Well, no, they're just like in the
pipeline.
They're
Dani Cooper (04:18):
Okay.
I see.
I'm picturing one going like,wait, actually, I think that was
awful.
And I have all of these thingsI'd like to change.
So can you please not publishthat?
I
Steph Barron Hall (04:29):
That did happen one time and I was like,
no, it sounds great.
Like, let's just, let's just doit, you know?
Dani Cooper (04:33):
Good,
Steph Barron Hall (04:34):
Um, so love to hear first off about who you
are, um, your background and howyou got interested into the
Enneagram.
Dani Cooper (04:46):
Okay.
Well, let's see, whenever anyoneasks like, who are you?
It's really hard to know whereto start, because like we're all
a lot of things.
I think of myself as someonewho's learning to be more her
real self and the trainingground for that is, um, I'm a
(05:08):
mom.
I, um, someone who loves natureand finds a ton of therapy
outside and in the sunshine.
Um, I love plants and animalsand, um, I've been married for a
long time.
It would be better if I knew theexact number, but like, I got
married, we've been married like27 years, which is crazy to say
(05:31):
you've done something for 27years.
So, and, um, you know, I loveconnecting people.
With who they are to, and so myown personal journey has been
like, how do I get to know myreal self?
And that has spilled over intolike, everyone should really
know who they truly are.
And, and so the Enneagram cameinto my life at a really
(05:56):
interesting time because I wason staff at a church as a
worship leader and I led worshipthere for like 17 years.
Um, as I was raising my kidsand, um, figuring out faith, and
I was a big part of that church,uh, for a long time.
And then, um, as churches oftengo, there were hills and
(06:20):
valleys, and, um, I was startinga descent into a, like,
deconstruction place, a placewhere I was really wondering,
um, if all the things that I'vebeen believing and I'm using, I
don't know if I need to I don'tknow.
Um, air quotes, but, like, I wasquestioning some of those
beliefs and so in a staffmeeting, um, we were doing, uh,
(06:45):
a team training type thing andthe road back to you across, um,
across my desk and, um, Istarted reading it and it wasn't
my 1st.
So, dipped into any a gram pool.
In fact, it had been many yearsbefore, but I sort of put it
aside because I'm like, well, Imean, it's not in the Bible.
And so maybe this is sketchy.
(07:07):
And so I kind of put it off tothe side.
Then when it came back, kind ofnicely packaged in a, you know,
a Christian publisher and putthis out, it felt like it had
more credence and I could havesome safety in exploring it.
So as an Enneagram one, I thinkthe structure of, um, and the
(07:28):
belief system that wasundergirding everything, um,
Prevented me from seeing theEnneagram until that moment and
so then it kind of opened up thedoor to reading about it.
And then, of course, peopleoften describe it, uh, you know,
reading the type one was like,Okay, why does that sound too
real right now.
(07:49):
So, um, that's sort of how Ifound my type and the journey
that I took to get there.
Steph Barron Hall (07:54):
Yeah, wow.
Um, yeah, it's kind ofinteresting that you mentioned
that because I think that that'ssomething that a lot of
Christians do struggle with thatthe Enneagram, not all like I
think that obviously there areso many different, um, shades
and colors of, of Christianity,of course, but, um, I have heard
that a lot.
And in fact, people DMing melike the Bible says this is
(08:17):
wrong.
And, you know, that sorts of,And of course, the Bible doesn't
say that the Enneagram is wrong,but
Dani Cooper (08:23):
No, but people make that leap, don't they?
They're like, what are youdoing?
You know, it's a slippery slope.
Don't you know that sort ofmentality,
Steph Barron Hall (08:31):
right.
And I think I can understandthat in a sense, like I
understand the fear of likestraying into like a forbidden
territory and becoming corruptsomehow because we can't trust
ourselves or whatever.
But I appreciate that you wereable to kind of connect with it
because you were able to kind oflook at these other cues of
(08:53):
like, my church is talking aboutthis, like, it's from Zondervan,
etc.
And yeah, so it kind of allowedyou to be like, okay, well,
maybe it's all right.
Dani Cooper (09:03):
And so I'm grateful that, um, you know, Enneagram
crossed over.
Into the Christian circle,because I, you know, there isn't
a person that I have ever met orknow of that couldn't benefit
from understanding themselvesmore deeply.
And if you want to take it froma faith perspective, it's like,
(09:26):
um, you know, I used to loveJohn Calvin when I was, um, in
the Presbyterian church and, um,he's like, you know, if you
really want to know God, youshould get to know yourself
without knowledge of self.
There is no knowledge of God.
And so I really honestly believethat that understanding and I
definitely still have a conceptof the divine and my faith is
(09:48):
actually stronger having beenbored in the crucible of
deconstruction and reallyparsing out what things, um,
were meaningful to me and reallyhold a held a lot of wisdom
that, um, that that's availableto people who are in a space
situation, whether they'restruggling with it, or whether
they feel really good about it,that this is a place where they
(10:12):
can deepen their knowledge ofthemselves and of the God that
they follow.
Steph Barron Hall (10:16):
Yeah, yeah, that's such a beautiful
perspective.
I'm curious if for you there,when you found your type, there
were any like light bulbmoments?
Or was it like, Oh, yeah, thatchecks out.
Dani Cooper (10:28):
Yeah, a lot of it checked out, um, the inner
critic for me was reallyinteresting, because I think
most ones would agree thatyou're not like, you know, that
there's this really mean, um,voice in your head, but you're
not.
Like, you think it's just normaland everyone has it and, um, you
(10:49):
know, everyone has a voiceberating them all the time and
telling them how much betterthey could have done.
And, and, and reading about itin the Enneagram, it felt really
great, but it was shocking whenI realized that others don't
struggle with that so much.
So that was one of the things Ireally resonated with, um, at
the outset and then became likecurious about, like, wow, well.
(11:11):
What would it be like withoutthat voice or what do I do with
that voice because I've justbeen believing it, you know, up
until now and wait, there's adifferent way.
And so I think that's whatEnneagram unlocks for all of us.
Wait, there's a different way.
I thought this was the way.
This is the lens I see rightthrough.
These are the ways I feel safein the world.
(11:32):
But understanding that thatvoice wasn't necessarily on my
side all the time didn'tnecessarily get me where I
thought it was getting me.
I thought that was a really agood place to work, but it was
difficult for me.
I named my inner critic.
I like rebuke her to use achurchy word, but like, you
(11:54):
know, I kind of had a terrible.
Feeling toward her or that partof me when I first discovered it
until I recognize that you know,the harder you fight something,
the more it tends to persist.
And so, um, yeah, I thinkstarting with the inner critic
was a, was a good place for meto work as a 1.
Now, something I did notresonate with was, um, just like
(12:17):
being totally perfectionistic inall areas of life, you know,
when you put the nameperfectionist on someone.
For me, that feels so heavy.
And I don't even really like touse that term because it's like,
my standards are already sohigh, you don't need to reaffirm
that that's the goal for me bycalling me that name.
(12:37):
Right.
And so, um, I, you know, like,I'm messy.
Basically, I was like, well, I'mthe worst one.
Like, I'm the most, I'm thebiggest failure of a one because
I'm imperfect in this way, inthis way, in this way, and I
know other ones could probablyagree with that.
Although some, I think, reallyenjoy the fact that they're
(12:58):
perfectionistic, but most thatI've found like a term like
reformer or improver, somethinglike that.
I think that's really our heartis to see the things that could
be reformed and improved and.
But our energy behind that.
So those are some of the thingsthat stuck out to me, first of
all, and then, you know, maybebeing a little critical of
(13:20):
others to I, I, I think thatthat was another place that I
started paying more attentionto.
And, um, yeah, that can bereally tough to see some of the
darker side of your type.
When you read it as well.
Steph Barron Hall (13:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of funny becauseI've heard one say I'm not
perfect enough to be aperfectionist.
Just like I've heard three sayI'm not, you know, um,
Dani Cooper (13:44):
That's all enough to me.
Steph Barron Hall (13:45):
enough to be a three, like, and it's just we
have these really incrediblyhigh standards for ourselves
and, um, it's really, that'swhere our attention is.
Um,
Dani Cooper (14:04):
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (14:06):
and I think that that's also, you know, what
you're just saying is one of thereasons I don't really use the,
the monikers.
And my teaching of the Enneagrambecause, um, I think they
pigeonhole us in a way that'snot really useful.
Dani Cooper (14:22):
Right.
And they're just, you know, ifwe're going to find our type via
the motivation, we don't want touse a descriptor to do that.
That's everything that we'retrying to fight against, like,
Oh, ones are like this.
And of course we all think aboutthat, but the motivation is the
thing that sets the Enneagramsystem apart from some other
ones that really do just look.
Primarily at behaviors versuswhat's going on behind the
(14:45):
behaviors.
So yeah, I like I like removingthe names as well.
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (14:53):
I think that one thing that's kind of
interesting too, and I've heardyou talk about this a little
bit, is that once you found yoursubtype, that was even more
insightful into, well, why don'tI really resonate with this kind
of stereotypical image of theone?
Dani Cooper (15:09):
Yeah, so come to find out.
Um, I pretty much figured outthat since I forget to eat since
I, you know, well, I'm prettyself forgetting when it comes to
my own body.
The self preservation subtypedidn't fit for me, nor did.
Just the idea of of being acooler type person.
(15:33):
I tend to have a lot of energyand I tend to have a lot of, um,
I think I just feel vivacious.
I'm somebody who likes toconnect and I think I have a
warmer feeling when I meetsomeone face to face.
And so the cooler types of onesthat are more maybe rigid or
buttoned up or reserved.
(15:53):
Those didn't fit me completely.
I mean, there are scenarioswhere those sides of me come
out, but ultimately, I tend tobe a warmer person that likes to
connect with others.
Um, and so, and, and theintensity with that, that comes
along with it really geared metoward the sexual subtype of
one.
(16:15):
Um, yeah, so like when I meetsomeone for the first time, and
I love people to not that mostones don't love people, they,
you know, they do, but I likewant to know you, I want you to
tell me your story, I want tolike really connect.
And so I think that that thattipped me off to the fact that
the one to one or sexual subtypewas more where I lived, and then
(16:36):
finding out that that's thecountertype or the one that
doesn't look as much like theone that clicked for me.
It's like, okay, well, That'swhy my house is messier than my,
my social subtype friend or my,um, self pres one friend.
And, um, you know, it actuallylet some pressure off for me to
not have to live quite as far upto that standard.
(17:00):
There are other ones that I putmyself to, but that one, you
know, if we can find one littlearea to let the steam off,
that's really good for us.
Steph Barron Hall (17:08):
Yeah,
Dani Cooper (17:09):
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (17:10):
yeah, that makes sense.
And I think, um, that's why Ilike the subtypes a lot too,
because even in my own story,like learning, okay, yeah, I'm
the sexual subtype as well.
Um, it makes so much more sense.
And I think that sometimes thatI'm not successful enough to be
a three story.
I'm like, Oh, I can see howbecause of my subtype stacking,
(17:34):
my attention is not.
on that same thing.
Um, and so it, it really helpsme to understand that aspect of
myself.
Dani Cooper (17:44):
I, um, so the fact that the, the sexual one, um,
really zooms in to like, um,give a lot of focus and
attention to maybe like theirprimary relationship was another
factor in me saying, yeah,that's me.
Um, because so my husband and I,I said, we've been married for a
(18:05):
long time.
And, um, he's definitely when Iread that, like, they're.
Their partners can be theirlittle improvement project.
I know that when he read that hewas like, uh huh.
Yeah.
Now, you know, it's in black andwhite.
This feels really hardsometimes.
And so that was, that was hardfor me, but there is this
idealistic vision of if you justdo this, this and this, and we
(18:29):
work together on this, we couldhave this amazing, wonderful,
um, legacy of like the mostclose and committed relationship
ever.
And so of course, our instinctsare such that the thing that we
focus on the most is what bringsus the most feeling of safety.
You know, like if, if that partof my life is okay, then
(18:52):
everything else is okay.
And that bears out for sure.
Like if things are off in mymarriage, like if we're having
an issue that we're workingthrough, um, it's hard to do
life.
Everything else in life justfeels.
Not as important.
Does that feel the same to youwhen you're some type two?
Yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (19:12):
Um, and I think too, I think one of the
things that's really interestingis just learning to navigate
some of that idealism as well,because I do think that all
sexual subtypes have that, um,of like idealizing their
significant other or theirrelationship or like this, you
know, ideal romantic connectionthat they could achieve.
(19:33):
Um, and I think one thing thatcan be hard is.
When you're not getting the sameheat that you want back from
that other person, it can feellike I'm just not important to
you, or like, you're not likedazzled by me in the way that I
want you to be.
And realizing that is so helpfulbecause it's like, oh, it's just
like a different perspective.
(19:54):
Probably they show importancebased on their instincts, you
know, um, and, and those things,but like wanting that level of
like.
Like he, you know, um,
Dani Cooper (20:05):
Yeah, the heat, the heat is where it's at.
When we feel the heat, then it'slike, all right, I'm good.
We can relax and, and feel likethings are okay.
Yeah.
And then like, For dialing it infor oneness, any, so the flaws
in my attention to what ismessed up, what needs fixing can
be really hard when it comes tothat.
And I'm sure hard to be therecipient of like, we need to
(20:29):
fix that.
But it almost feels as though asexual one, like the flaws that
my people have, um, will somehowreflect back on me.
And then things will crumble andthings just don't feel quite as.
Secure.
So some of that's really hard toadmit, but, you know, knowing
these things about ourselves andlike me being really honest
(20:53):
about that gave.
Um, you know, my husband and Ihave something to talk about and
like, why it's happening andwhat sorts of feelings are
happening in me when I want toreform what he's doing.
And it's just like you said,it's like, it's a fear, like,
why isn't the heat there?
Why don't I feel the intensityand the connection?
(21:14):
Like, what's wrong?
This isn't how I feel like itshould be.
And so Just like any other pieceof information that you find out
about yourself, there's a reasonfor it and when we can get to
those levels, then we can relateand talk through it a little bit
better.
So, and yeah, I, I find thatwhen I'm out of balance, meaning
(21:35):
I'm leaning really far into mysexual subtype.
You know, with all the rules ofthree, with all the triads and
the enneagram, we know that whenwe're leaning too far into one
of those, whether it's ourcenter of intelligence or
instinct or any of those triads,um, that that's, that's going to
create an imbalance actually.
(21:56):
And so the sign for that, forme, when I'm not feeling the
heat, and then things arecopying, cropping up is that I
feel a lot, a lot of jealousy,um, and a lot of
competitiveness.
And so, that's really roughbecause, um, you know, as a
woman, I'm feeling competitive.
(22:17):
I'm feeling jealous.
I'm like, well, where is theattention going?
Is it?
And so then looking for any ofthe cracks, like, oh, did a
person just walk by and, and hiseyes went up to it?
Like as a woman, it's like, ohmy God, this is terrible.
Then everything flares up.
And so I think it's important tonotice the indicators of the
(22:39):
instinct being out of balanceand that's mine.
Jealousy.
Steph Barron Hall (22:43):
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Well, and I think that's reallyisn't that one of the names for
the sexual one.
So
Dani Cooper (22:51):
I like zeal, but yeah, there is a lot of, I mean,
you're zealous about reallyneeding, um, the focus to, to be
on you so that you can feel likeyou're okay.
Like, what's wrong with me ifhe's not there, it can be really
easy to personalize that.
And yeah,
Steph Barron Hall (23:09):
I think one thing that's important here too,
though, is that we're not sayinglike, okay, now you, the
partner.
You need to show up and do allthese things and fit this mold.
It's really more so that, yeah,we want, maybe want to say that,
but it's, it's more so thatwe're like, okay, I'm
acknowledging this in myself andnoticing how I can work on that
within myself, not alwaysdemanding that my partner, you
(23:35):
know, serve all of these
Dani Cooper (23:37):
Yep.
Uh huh.
Right.
And that's the healthy way touse that information.
Um, again, I mean, I can't saythat I have used that
information in the healthiestway, you know, and that's the
work.
It's the noticing it's the whereyour response gets you like
there's different ways I canrespond to when I feel that
happening.
(23:57):
And the benefit of Reallythinking about it and really
understanding what's below thatand what emotions are driving
that can give you so muchfreedom.
I always say to my clients,like, with awareness, you get to
choose without awareness, youjust react, but the choice that
we get when we have theinformation to improve the
(24:19):
response.
And, you know, I love theimprovement is, is really
powerful.
So, yeah, I think 1 of thethings that.
Um, I think I've seen myselfmore in the social subtype
earlier and in phases of mylife.
Um, COVID, I think, changed someof that too, where I wanted to
(24:45):
just be at home with my faithpeople in my little cocoon.
Right.
Um, and so I think.
I think that I see some of the,the social aspects in me too.
And, um, that would be just likewanting to teach, wanting to,
um, you know, always be doingthe right thing, like, like not
(25:08):
be a hypocrite, like not befound to you.
Be doing the things that I saythat I'm again, um, being pretty
sensitive to critique that sortof stuff, um, from that social
aspect of it too.
And so I think it's reallyimportant for people to
understand that your subtypes,even though you have a focus of
(25:28):
one, you have a basic, um,instinct that's going to be
highest in your stacking thatit's not uncommon to go between
those or to even have adifferent subtype based on.
What's going on in specific erasof your life, and, um, they can
be really fluid or they can staystatic for a long time.
(25:51):
Can you do you see that to betrue as well?
I know it's true for me.
Steph Barron Hall (25:55):
Yeah, I think it probably, I don't know, there
are so many different schools ofthought on it, um, but I
Dani Cooper (26:01):
What's your experience?
Steph Barron Hall (26:02):
I think that, I'm like trying to think, I
haven't exactly mapped it, but Ican always see, um, the sexual
instincts in, in the sense oflike, uh, being a Raneo talk
about how, um, There was a lotof, like, a lot of the time
people who have the sexualinstinct were, like, parentified
(26:24):
in a really specific way, um,and I can see that even in my
childhood.
So I, I really see, like, someof those things.
Um, so I'm, I'm not sure, I, Ido think, though, that it's not
necessarily, like, always astatic stacking, like, um,
Sometimes for clarity, we, weput these like little layers,
(26:45):
you know, but I was just makinggraphics for my book and I was
like, Oh, actually I need tolike warp this.
Right.
So it's like, instead of beinglike clear, clear layers, it's
like, sometimes there's, youknow, a lot of the, that top
instinct and sometimes the otherone comes up to the top and that
sort of thing.
So I think that that makessense.
Dani Cooper (27:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, I can see that in my life,but I think the thing that lands
me back and like, no, you'redefinitely stuck in the, um,
sexual instinct is tension thatI'm always feeling between being
rigid, being controlled, beingappropriate from my oneness.
(27:28):
Um, trying to keep that angerwhere it lives, right?
Like the sexual subtype will letthat anger out for sure, but my
oneness is always telling methat that's not appropriate.
That's not okay to be angry.
Um, but like this tensionbetween the control and the
freedom in me, there's so muchin me and the sexual subtype
(27:50):
wants more freedom, wants moremovement, wants more energy.
Juice.
And the one is trying to like,mitigate that as often as it can
so that you can stay within yourbounds.
So I think that, you know,there's like this push and pull
or this tug of war going onbetween those two, two sides of
that, you know, because it'slike you get too free and you're
(28:13):
gonna be bad.
And so it's, it's a, it's astrange sort of dance that's
going on even in the realm of,you know, people sometimes feel
uncomfortable talking about thesexual subtype.
Um, and prefer to use the termone to one, but I think that
there is a component ofsexuality and sensuality to it
(28:34):
for us, because as humans, wehave all of these, these
instincts, and they're all veryimportant biologically and
emotionally and physically andall of the things for our
survival as humans.
And so I think that there is.
In the same way a self prezperson might have, like, this
swinging between, um, like,dieting and then binging, that
(28:56):
sort of thing, a sexual subtype,I think, also has this sort of
sexual swing, too, where it'slike, no, I want to be free, I
want to feel my body, pleasureis a thing, um, and, like, no,
you need to repress that, what'sgonna happen if you do let
yourself be free.
So, um, I've, I've found, andI've done some reading on it
(29:18):
about how, like, identity is animportant piece of this too,
where it's like finding, um,finding security in yourself as
a physical person with sexualdesires.
And that's not bad.
Some of us have just reallygrown up with messaging related
to the body and related tosexuality that it really needs
(29:38):
to be managed or else.
Right.
Does that make sense?
Steph Barron Hall (29:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I totally got a lot of thosemessages too.
I think I was kind of like,okay, well, I don't know about
that.
Dani Cooper (29:50):
But if you were a one you might be like, Oh my
gosh, this is another place Ineed to put myself in jail, or
else something terrible willhappen and I will be as bad as I
think I am, you know,
Steph Barron Hall (30:03):
Yeah.
Exactly.
And I think it's kind ofinteresting as well to, to think
about like this concept ofpurity culture overall and how,
um, different people in my lifehave responded so differently to
it.
Um, and how even just thismorning, my husband and I were
having this conversation abouthow our instincts are at play
(30:23):
and the way that we respond todifferent issues.
Um, and yeah, it's just sointeresting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dani Cooper (30:32):
Yeah, I think it's really interesting too.
I can, I think I look back, um,even like as a young, like I had
a wild period before I likebecame a church person.
I grew up in the Catholicchurch, um, and was pretty
relaxed about it.
I would say I grew up in thechoir loft of a Catholic church
because my grandma was always atchurch.
She always sang on Sundays andactually I have really great
(30:55):
memories about that, but.
Becoming like a born again,Kristen was something where it's
like, oh my goodness, like thatwas after my wild period.
And it's like, now I know theanswer.
Now I know the things not to do.
I had this safety zone of rulesaround me where I could repent
of all of that wild behavior.
(31:16):
Um, and be good.
Now I had this structure aroundme and and so yeah, that's a
it's a crazy place to navigatebecause, you know, you are a
human with a body in in thisworld.
And every person has such aunique unique experience and all
the messaging that you're takingin is so confusing.
(31:39):
And you're making all of thesedecisions as a young person and
trying to figure out life.
I mean.
At my age, I'm still like, wow,I'm still figuring out life,
but, um, to know yourself andto, I always am amazed at when
young people are learning theirEnneagram type and getting to
take that wisdom with themearlier than I did through the
(32:01):
rest of their life.
I think it's It's such a gift,because when you know who you
are, you can decide whichmessages you let shape who you
are, and you understand theimpact that they have on you in
a different way than if you'rejust absorbing.
And, um, that's where purityculture can really do a lot of
damage for sure.
Steph Barron Hall (32:23):
Yeah.
I'm curious because, so I, Iheard B, Beatrice just say, um,
that ones, even though they'rein the body center and with the
body types, we talk a lot aboutbeing instinctual, you know, but
ones are, she calls them antiinstinctual, like the, the body
knowing is rising, but thentheir head is like, Nope, we're
(32:45):
going to cap that.
And like, Yeah.
you know, put a lid on it kindof thing.
Um, but then you have the veryinstinctual sexual instinct with
that body type.
And I'm curious what that islike for you as a one, because
you know, you're like, I have tobe logical and rational and
reasonable, but I have theseforces that feel entirely
(33:08):
different from that.
Dani Cooper (33:09):
Totally.
Yes.
It's a, it's like abattleground.
I'm not, I'm not exaggeratingwhen it feels like a constant
battle to, I mean, you say wewant to be rational.
We want to be logical.
We think of ourselves that way.
And that yet we're thinkingrepressed.
When you're, when you're lookingat, you know, our stackings of,
(33:29):
of centers of intelligence, andthat's due to the intercredit
getting involved and justskewing everything and, and make
casting you in a bad light sothat if something happens where
you do make a mistake, youalready knew you were bad.
So it's like protective in areally strange way.
As far as the body goes, um, tohave a body feels so vulnerable.
(33:56):
When you're a body type, and asa person, and as a woman and
living in our culture, I mean,so it's like all of these things
are stacked up to an impossibledegree where life and body types
to feel it.
Like, life is just so much, andwe feel that in our bodies.
It's just the too muchness oflife is a burden.
(34:20):
And so the instincts that wefeel.
We have to train ourselves asone to accept that and to
welcome that knowing because ifour body is bad, if we have a
culture or a purity culturewhere it's like, this is this,
this is where you can do themost damage.
If you do the wrong things withyour body, then, um, that's
(34:41):
really dangerous.
And so anything coming from thebody feels, first of all, like,
you can't control it.
I mean, a lot of ones will bevery self controlled in how they
move, how they dress, whatthey're eating, how they're
acting, remember, posture,appropriateness is everything.
I don't want to present myselfin a way physically that is
(35:05):
going to cause me shame.
There's a real big shamecomponent to it too.
So that's a huge disconnect forone where it's like, I have this
gut knowing and it's reallystrong.
It really can be verytrustworthy too.
But getting over the fact thatI'm a human with a body and
(35:25):
that's not a bad thing, um, is,is a big, it's a big deal.
It's a lot of work and it's notsomething that I've mastered
whatsoever, but it's somethingthat I've got my eye on.
It's something that I have topay attention to every day.
So yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (35:43):
something you said, was really interesting to
me.
And I, I've been wanting to asksomebody about this.
Dani Cooper (35:49):
Okay.
Steph Barron Hall (35:49):
and you can, this is like totally off the
cuff.
So you can just be like, no, I'mnot prepared to talk about that.
That's fine.
But, so something with ones islike about being appropriate,
right?
You said appropriateness iseverything.
So it's about like beingappropriate, being like,
correct.
like conducting yourself in amanner, which is.
To be seen as appropriate, butit's not an image thing as much
(36:11):
as like, for example, for athree, there's that chameleon
ask thing.
And I'm curious how you can fromthe inside determine, how is
this appropriateness kind offocus not about.
image.
Dani Cooper (36:29):
That is such an awesome question.
I think that it comes frominstinct.
I think it goes back to thatintuition, where it's like, in
the way that a three knows whothey need to be when they walk
into a room, a one has an innatesense of.
(36:52):
Or they think they do of how tomake themselves be good, right?
We're always trying to just begood.
We're trying to not, impactthings in a negative way or a
flawed way.
So I think it comes from, thegut.
I do.
I mean, but it's a controlthing.
(37:13):
That's a great question becauseyou're right.
It's not about image, although Ithink it's a little about image,
knowing the confines, knowingwhere my body stops and where
the world begins and where itstarts and where the world
begins.
I think it's part of that.
And I think that it shows thatwe know we could have an impact.
(37:33):
It's kind of like, and thissounds weird.
And if this doesn't happen toyou, where you're standing on
the top of a tall building andyou're thinking I could jump,
like I have that within me to beable to impact something or be
driving and be like, what wouldhappen if I just swerved?
I can affect my environment.
I think it's what I'm saying.
Like we have this knowledge thatwith our bodies, we can make an
(37:56):
impact.
On the world around us, andwe're afraid of what that impact
could do.
And I think it, I think it stemsfrom that knowledge and the
ability to make sure that we areright.
And that's going to, um, youknow, like, think of the one,
the one.
Place in the world is to seewhat could be improved.
(38:18):
The best side of a 1 is like, wecan see all the goodness and all
the wonderfulness that the worldand the people and it could look
like what it should look like.
And so us being able to do ourown little part to impact that
or not impact, I think, is whatfeels like so much pressure to a
one.
Steph Barron Hall (38:38):
where do you get the information about what
is right?
Is that, uh, dependent on thecircumstance and the people that
you're around, or is it moreinternal?
Mm hmm.
Dani Cooper (38:50):
I think it's internal, but the rules around
us scaffold that for us.
Steph Barron Hall (38:57):
hmm.
Mm
Dani Cooper (38:59):
They make us feel safe and so we'll find places
where we align.
And we'll bristle in placeswhere we don't, unless we're in
a place that we want to, wherewe feel like we should mold for
this reason or for another,like, for example, you need to
change your ways you need to getbetter, and you need to improve
(39:23):
yourself, that will help usadhere to a new set of
structures,
Steph Barron Hall (39:28):
hmm.
Dani Cooper (39:29):
know what I mean, but there are times also where
we will be Really stubborn withour internal understanding of
how things should be.
So, it depends, but differenttactics work on us, like we
talked about purity culture andcertain messaging around.
Religious institutions, thosehave a way of breaking through
and breaking down people'sintuitions or understandings of.
(39:54):
Who and what they need to be aswell, not even a 1, not even,
you know, 1 can be strongagainst that all the time.
So.
But I think ones really have asense that comes from inside of
them about what good, how thingsshould be done, how things
should be
Steph Barron Hall (40:13):
Yeah.
The should.
Should.
Yeah.
Um, I'm curious if when you wentthrough this big change in your
faith and your spiritual life,um, if you ever felt lost, like,
oh my gosh, I don't have thescaffolding anymore.
I don't have the structureanymore.
Now what?
What is my moral code?
What is my ethical perspective?
Dani Cooper (40:35):
Yeah.
Um, again, I feel like I had aninner compass and boiled down.
I think that spirituality.
The purest form teaches thatthere is a spirit.
There's a compass inside eachone of us.
It has different names, but, um,my journey has ended me and I'll
back up in a second to the placewhere everyone has that we can
(40:58):
trust that we don't need to fearfor anybody else having that we
can just pay attention toourselves.
And that's enough.
But back then, definitely.
I think I knew I think the innercompass is what Put me into
deconstruction because thingswere not adding up for me
anymore, you know, in relationto how we treat other people and
(41:22):
how, um, you know, the mandateto love one another was being
walked out in practice.
But um, I definitely did feellost at the check marks of like,
if I do this and I do this and Ido this, I'm okay.
Those go away and it's back tofreedom, the freedom that, that
(41:46):
I'm wanting and getting tuggedtowards.
Freedom is also very scarybecause it feels like there's
also a million ways to go wrongunless you're, um, unless you're
not afraid of that.
And obviously the one I'm afraidof going wrong or going astray,
plus all of the messaging thatI've had about how easy it was
for your foot to slip.
(42:07):
Or for you to stumble or slidedown the slippery slope.
So it was very disorienting atfirst, um, and even more so for
my husband, because I began thejourney first.
And that was, that was wild forhim because he, I mean, the
first time I was like, you know,I'm just not really sure that,
(42:28):
that a physical actual placelike hell exists.
And I remember exactly where wewere like we're driving on the
highway and he turned to me andyou would have thought that I
like he didn't even recognize melike I was like, Wow, I just
rocked his world telling himthat just because I had
questions.
And so as a sick, you know, hewas like, No, I need to
(42:50):
structure where you goingwithout me and we were on this
journey together now and he hasmore questions than I ever did
now right as a sick.
But it was a very right.
Steph Barron Hall (43:01):
can't stop
Dani Cooper (43:02):
Oh, my God.
I love it.
I remember asking him.
I'm like reading in thebeginning, like it says six is
asked a lot of questions.
He goes, Do I know?
And I was like, Oh, my goodness,but I like that Pringles fan
thing.
So yeah, I mean, it was verydisconcerting.
But, um, yeah, I think mostpeople have that experience
(43:25):
because you're losing a lot.
It's very scary to, to chart acourse that you've not, that
you're not following a lot ofpeople on, you know, we.
Um, you lose your community alot of times.
People, you know, look at youlike you've grown horns, you
know, or like you're, you'vebeen dabbling in something and,
(43:47):
you know, you're on the wrongpath or whatever.
So that can be very, very scary.
I don't, I don't care who youare.
So.
I'm really grateful that moreand more that people are finding
community and, um, you know,refinding faith to like the end
of deconstruction doesn't alwayslook like you take everything
you believed in and chuck it inthe garbage can.
(44:09):
It can for people.
And like I said, I, I, I, Ithink that the divine and God
really trust our own journey,right?
Otherwise we wouldn't haveindividual journeys and we
wouldn't have individual soulsand experiences.
And I think that we do eachother.
Um, a service and really loveeach other by trusting one
(44:30):
another with their own, our ownjourneys as well.
So, yeah.
Steph Barron Hall (44:35):
Have you read, um, The Dance of the
Dissident Daughter by Sue MonkKidd?
Dani Cooper (44:38):
No, but I'm reading the book of longings right now.
Steph Barron Hall (44:42):
Okay.
Dani Cooper (44:43):
I'm ready to read that one next.
Okay, cool.
Steph Barron Hall (44:46):
Yeah, it's just about her process.
I, I'm like 60 percent through.
I've been like reading it littleby little because it's, there's
just a lot to think about forme.
But it's about her process of,of leaving her, like she was a
good, proper Southern lady, likea church lady, and then like
leaving that process.
And, um, I just hear so muchsimilarity.
(45:08):
She feels very Nine ish to me inher story, but I don't really
know.
Much about her.
So I don't know,
Dani Cooper (45:15):
If she listens to this, she should let us know
because we would love to knowthat.
Steph Barron Hall (45:18):
my kid, we would love to talk with you.
Dani Cooper (45:22):
That'd be so awesome.
Steph Barron Hall (45:24):
Um, yeah.
Okay.
So that's really helpful.
I think to think about too,because, um, with what you're
talking about with your husbandand walking through that, like a
one and a six, right?
You're just pulling the rug outfrom under you both.
Um, and how destabilizing thatcan be, but then you have to
learn to swim and you have tolearn how to, it's weird, like
mixed metaphor.
(45:44):
I'm like throwing out here, butlike, you have to, yeah.
Learn how to figure that outtogether and individually, but
Dani Cooper (45:52):
Right.
Yeah.
I like how you said that, like,figuring it out together is
definitely a piece of it.
I was thinking more of my ownindividual journey.
But when you're in apartnership, and one person, you
know, takes a little detour,it's like, I mean, I, my husband
Shane definitely said, I didn'tknow, I remember you playing an
(46:13):
episode of the Bible for normalpeople for me.
And I was like, Yeah.
What on earth?
This is like heresy, right?
And so there's this takeoffperiod where, again, we'll keep
talking about the value of beingable to communicate with your
partner.
That's like the biggest thing.
You can, if you can talk aboutit, then you can work through
(46:35):
it, or at least gainunderstanding of the other
person's side.
Man, we need some more of thatin the world right now to just
be able to have opposingviewpoints that sit at the same
table and, and just share yourfeelings and, and honor each
other's place where they arebecause we're all at different
places.
So, it's important to be able tonavigate that for sure.
Steph Barron Hall (46:58):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, well, I know that you'vebeen working with clients
Through the Enneagram for a fewyears now And I'm curious if
there are things that you knownow or that you recognize now
about this journey about selfdiscovery about the Enneagram
about Yourself that you didn'tknow before you started working
with people in this capacity
Dani Cooper (47:18):
Yeah, man.
I've learned so much.
Um, I remember before I began orlike having my first few
coaching clients and thinking Ijust I had to be perfect to show
up and to be of use to thepeople that I was going to have
the honor of sitting acrossfrom.
Um, and so, uh, I don't believethat anymore, and I'm starting
(47:39):
to embrace, like, it's, it's theimperfections in our humanity
that people actually relate toand connect with best, and my
goal whenever I'm with, um,another person in a coaching
capacity or wherever is justthat.
The person that I'm with feelslike I'm seeing them and hearing
them and holding space for theirstory.
(48:01):
So that was one thing I had tolearn is that I didn't have to
be perfect or just some idea ofthere wasn't a should involved,
right?
If I could hold space and listenwell and really care for that
person, that that, um, would beenough and that would be good.
So and I that I didn't have tofix anything.
I think when I first startedcoaching, I thought I needed to
(48:23):
have all these answers and thenI needed to have all these
solutions ready for someone thatwas having an issue.
And, um, coaching is much moreabout hearing and seeing that
person and drawing the wisdomout from them that's already
there.
I truly believe any person thatcomes to see me.
Really kind of knows what theirnext steps are and knows these
(48:46):
things about themselves.
It's just it takes a coach toask the right questions so that
they can arrive at that nextstep or that wisdom for
themselves because that's whenit actually makes an impact on
us is when we can draw it outfrom the deep waters of our own
souls.
So definitely learned that.
And, um, I coach a lot of ones.
(49:06):
I really like coaching ones.
I don't know if you have thatexperience with threes, but it's
really powerful to relate tosomeone on on a level of type
where it's like, Oh, sister, Iknow that pain.
I know that struggle.
And here's what we need to hear.
You know, you're almost coachingyourself as you're
Steph Barron Hall (49:27):
hmm.
Dani Cooper (49:28):
as you're talking to the other person.
So yeah.
I love one on one for sure.
And also I love helping couplescommunicate better too.
So
Steph Barron Hall (49:37):
Yeah.
Dani Cooper (49:38):
really, really an honor to get to do that.
Steph Barron Hall (49:41):
Yeah, absolutely um I'm curious if you
have any practical advice forpeople who are just beginning,
especially if they're ones, buteven if you have something for
all types.
Dani Cooper (49:52):
Do you mean beginning Enneagram work or?
Yeah.
Hmm.
When we find type, um, I thinkthat some of us, you know,
there's a couple differentreactions to it where it's like
some of us want to push it asideand like not want to get tagged
or pinned down by a type.
(50:13):
And then there are those of uswho are like, Oh my gosh, that's
so me.
And then we, we like live inthrough the aspects of type.
And I view finding your type as,um, Yeah.
Finding the place where you'rethe most stuck and so like
you're looking at your lifethrough a knothole in a fence,
(50:33):
you're just getting this reallylimited view of all that your
life could be because of thisstory that you crafted as you
know, a little kid about how tonavigate the world with the most
safety and the most, um, youknow, amount of belonging that
you could muster up by youractions.
(50:54):
And so we have long outgrown theneed for that.
And we're thankful topersonality protecting us and
helping us get to where we are.
But just like we've grown out ofthose clothing, we've grown out
of our types too.
And so to be able to startpeeling back the layers.
And, uh, will only lead you to amore full and free expression
(51:17):
of, of who you actually are.
You're not your type, but, um,finding out about your type will
help you see how you've beenreally living into type and that
you're just so much more.
So that's my, that's my firstadvice is learn all you can
apply all, all that you can and,and find how that matches up and
then ask yourself, gosh, do Iwant to keep doing this?
(51:40):
Is there a different way?
How could I expand beyond this?
And I think that's a great wayto start.
Steph Barron Hall (51:46):
Yeah.
That's fantastic advice.
Yeah.
I love it.
Um, okay.
Before we get to our very lasttwo questions, where can people
find you?
What do you want to share withthem?
Do you want to share your book?
What do you want to tell them?
Dani Cooper (51:59):
Hmm.
Sure.
Yeah.
So you can find me on Instagrammainly.
Um, and that's atdeepwatersenneagram.
And also my website isdeepwatersenneagram.
com.
And, um, so that's where I loveto chat with people.
Um, I love to DM and I loveanswering comments, stuff like
that.
Um, I did write a book.
(52:20):
I think it came out in 20, itcame out 2022.
I believe it's called theEnneagram for Christian couples.
I would have rewritten thattitle to the Enneagram for
couples of all types, but therewere certain things that the
publisher wanted on my bookcover.
So, but I would say that's not alot of good practical advice for
(52:41):
partners of any kind.
Um, I even think it's great forinformation about how to get
along with like a parent childrelationship, that sort of
thing.
So, um, yeah, so that's my book.
Um, I do personal coaching,couples coaching, I do team
training, and, um, I lovechatting on podcasts with
(53:02):
friends like you.
Steph Barron Hall (53:03):
Great.
Yeah.
I'd love to have you here.
That's awesome.
I will link everything in theshow notes, of course.
Um, so finally tell me about abook that has helped you refresh
you or shaped you in the lastyear.
Dani Cooper (53:15):
Okay.
So.
This is going to really relate,so I'm reading the Wisdom of
Your Body by Hilary LeanneMcBride, and I read nonfiction
books like reference books, soI'll read a little here and a
little there.
I'm a fiction girl for sure.
I will finish a fiction bookcover to cover, but my
nonfiction books, I have to takein chunks and like digest them
(53:37):
and move it on.
So that's when I keep comingback to, um, as I.
Become more embodied, morecomfortable with having a body
of, um, loving my body ofunderstanding pain, more of
understanding how my emotionsthat I didn't want to feel for
so long, including the angerthat a one harbors, but all the
(53:59):
rest of them to can really lodgein the body and how to move that
through.
So that's been really helpfulfor me.
So that I can embrace having abody and being a human and stop
wishing I was a robot, becausehonestly, that wouldn't be as
fun as it sounds like it wouldbe.
Steph Barron Hall (54:17):
Right.
Dani Cooper (54:18):
It
Steph Barron Hall (54:19):
Yeah, it'd be a little bland.
Dani Cooper (54:21):
can be bland.
Yeah.
So anyway, that's the journey.
And that book has been reallyhelpful to reconnect my
relationship to my relationshipwith my body.
Steph Barron Hall (54:32):
Beautiful.
I love it.
Um, okay.
What is a piece of advice thathas really stuck with you?
Dani Cooper (54:38):
Okay.
And I have to hear this likeevery day, my husband's really
great at reminding me.
Um, when my inner critic isreally loud and my story is
like, Oh, you know, you and mytype is really strong and my
thought, he constantly will sayto me, you're doing better than
you think you are.
And that's really helpful forme.
(55:00):
And I have to think about everyday.
So
Steph Barron Hall (55:03):
for that advice, Shane.
Perfect advice.
Dani Cooper (55:05):
know, right?
I know.
It's so good.
He's got so much wisdom.
Steph Barron Hall (55:09):
Yeah, I love it.
Okay.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me today for this
podcast.
And I really appreciate yousharing everything.
And I think we just need adeeper dive on all of these
deconstruction things we've beenchatting about, uh,
peripherally.
But, um, thanks so much forjoining me.
Dani Cooper (55:27):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Great to be here.
Thanks.
Steph Barron Hall (55:31):
Thanks so much for listening to Enneagram
IRL.
If you love the show, be sure tosubscribe and leave us a rating
and review.
This is the easiest way to makesure new people find the show.
And it's so helpful for a newpodcast like this one, if you
want to stay connected.
Sign up for my email list in theshow notes or message me on
instagram at nine types co totell me your one big takeaway
(55:52):
from today's show I'd love tohear from you.
I know there are a millionpodcasts you could have been
listening to, and I feel sograteful that you chose to spend
this time with me.
Can't wait to meet you rightback here for another episode of
any grim IRL very soon.
The Enneagram and real lifepodcast is a production of nine
types co LLC.
(56:12):
It's created and produced byStephanie Barron hall.
With editing support fromBrandon Hall.
And additional support fromcrits collaborations.
Thanks to dr dream chip for ouramazing theme song and you can
also check out all of theirmusic on spotify
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