April 22, 2025 • 47 mins
Guest host Susie Larson welcomes John Stonestreet for a thoughtful conversation on the passing of Pope Francis. Later, Jamie Winship poses a compelling question: What kind of transformation could take place if you spoke the truth to yourself and faced life with courage? Don’t miss this powerful discussion as we explore how to let go of our self-made identities and embrace God’s true design for us.
Today's resource: Living Fearless: Exchanging the Lies of the World for the Liberating Truth of God
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:20):
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equipped with Chris Brooks! I am so thrilled you've joined
us today. Why don't you do me a favor? Strap
on your seatbelt. We're going to navigate through the contours
of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical
worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you,
this is the day that the Lord has made. He
is giving it as a gift so that you and
(00:42):
I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's
do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul.
Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice.
I hope you're having a great day. I'm going to
be away from the program today, but I want you
to join me in welcoming Susie Larson to the hot seat. Now,
many of you know Susie. She's a best selling author, speaker,
(01:06):
radio host. She loves Jesus, and most of all loves
helping people draw into a deeper life in Christ. She's
also a wife, a, a mother and a grandmother as well. Susie,
thank you for hosting this edition of equip.
S2 (01:22):
Well, Chris, we love you and we're praying for you.
So honored to be sitting in for you today, tomorrow,
and the next day. And friends, I'm so honored to
be with you again. We've got a really important conversation
up ahead. You know, living in today's culture, it can
ignite anxiety and fear in the most stout hearted believers.
And if you're not careful, it's easy to lose sight
of who God is and even who you are. So
in a moment, my friend, author and identity expert Jamie
(01:44):
Winship joins us to talk about how fear impacts our
truest sense of identity. He likes to ask this question
how would you live if you weren't afraid of anything?
You think about that for a moment. And the two
most important questions he tells us to ask God when
we're facing our fears are these. God, what do you
want me to know? What do you want me to
do to think about those as well? We're going to
(02:06):
get Jamie on in just a moment, but if you
are a regular listener to equipped, you know, Chris makes
it a habit to speak to the news items of
the day from a biblical worldview. And yesterday morning, we
received the news that Pope Francis passed away just a
day after he made the appearance at the Vatican balcony,
sharing a message delivered by an aide to those gathered
at the Easter Sunday in Saint Peter's Square. We could
(02:28):
not think of anyone better than John Stonestreet to address this.
He's a president of Colson Center for Christianity Christian Worldview.
He's an honored guest. He's a great friend of the kingdom. And, John,
I know you had to pivot to join us today.
Thanks for joining us on such short notice.
S3 (02:42):
Oh, hey, listen, thanks so much for having me. It's
a I appreciate it. And good to talk to you, Susie.
S2 (02:47):
Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation. So talk to us
if you would. This can be a lightning rod topic.
To be honest, I've been watching comments on on the
online and people have opinions all over the place. So
talk to us about who Pope Francis was.
S3 (03:01):
Right. It is a and it needs to be. I mean,
there was a reformation that was fought over this and
and it's a reformation that really in many ways continues.
But Francis was a kind of a pope that could
be called a pope. At first, he was the first
to have been first pope to have been born in
the Americas, the first one since the eighth century to
not have been born in Europe. Uh, the first Jesuit pope. Uh,
(03:24):
that's significant. And of course, he took the name of
Saint Francis in honor of Saint Francis of Assisi. And
that really reflected, I think, the kind of the non-European
context in which he was born in Argentina to an
Italian immigrant family. Uh, almost immediately, uh, he kind of
established himself as someone who kind of wanted to reject
(03:47):
the trappings of clerical office. He, you know, took public transportation.
He cooked for himself. Uh, many people noted that he
chose orthopedic shoes when he became pope, over the red
slippers that were common for the, uh, the office. Um,
and he talked a lot about immigrants, and he talked
a lot about caring for the poor and wanted to
see the church kind of go in that direction. But
(04:11):
there was also a key aspect in which, when it
came to issues of doctrine, uh, there was a oftentimes
a lack of clarity. Uh, probably the most famous moment
of his papacy was when asked about gay marriage and
he said, who am I to judge? And you know
the answer that a lot of us thought at the
time was, you're the Pope. You are exactly the one
(04:31):
to judge. But it was like he was super clear
when it came to issues of charity and benevolence. But
when it came to issues of sexuality and doctrine and
exclusivity of Christ and other things, he refused to have
that same sort of clarity. And that was a big contrast, uh,
(04:52):
from the two popes that he followed. Uh, John Paul II,
of course, known for a remarkable set of teachings that
became known as theology of the body, which really reestablished
Catholic teaching on things like sexuality and birth control and
marriage and and mothering and fathering and so on. And then,
of course, Benedict, who became pope because he was basically
(05:15):
John Paul II's theologian. And so the shift to the
papacy of Francis was also, you know, people wondered, is
this a transition for the office away from being so
stringent on doctrine and now being kind of more loving? And,
of course, the national media, uh, and international media that
(05:40):
tended to be left leaning tended to be, uh, anti
some of the Christian positions that have always defined the
church and, and Christian teaching. We're excited about that. They
wanted to see that change and compromise happen, especially when
it comes to issues of sexuality.
S2 (05:57):
You know, it's interesting because when this topic is brought up,
especially on Christian radio, you'll have all kinds of feelings
about it, people. Some express anger and frustration that we're
talking about it at all. Others would wonder why we
don't talk about it more. But you really say that
this position of Pope is so influential in our culture
that it needs to be addressed. So speak to that
if you would.
S3 (06:18):
Well, it's influential in our culture. And by our I mean,
I'm assuming you mean America. But, you know, one of
the ways that it became influential under Pope Francis is
that many of the American bishops stood against some of
the changes that were taking place under his papacy and
under his his leadership. They wanted to be more clear
on particular social issues. And that wasn't the case when
(06:39):
it came to cardinals and bishops around the world. But
you have to remember, I mean, the Roman Catholic Church,
the pope is, quote unquote, the leader of 1.3 billion people.
It is the largest single religious body on the planet.
And in that sense, and, um, you know, that's why
it's big. And we also know, too, just as recently
(07:00):
as the latter part of the 20th century, that the
pope played a significant role in world events. I mean,
you think about the role that John Paul II played
in the downfall of communism. Many people point to, uh,
you know him as well as, uh, Margaret Thatcher, Ronald
Reagan throwing Billy Graham as having kind of a significant
(07:21):
influence in cracking that kind of wall, uh, that divided, uh,
the USSR and this, you know, basically the communist side
of the planet from the western side of the planet
or the free side of the planet. And so that's
I mean, you know, it's just it's a major position.
There's few people that are better known on the planet
(07:42):
than the Pope. Um, and of course, one of the
questions is, does that continue now, or are we seeing
some sort of, uh, you know, decline, uh, in terms
of the role of a conservative religious leader or a
religious leader on the planet?
S2 (07:57):
So how should we as Christians be praying and what
should we be watching for? I mean, as you said,
because he's such an influential leader, it does matter, uh,
where they go next and what direction they take. So
how do you suggest we pray?
S3 (08:11):
Well, listen, we don't want a religious leader that represents Christianity. And,
you know, listen, I don't think that I think the
Reformation was over significant issues and that there are really
irreconcilable differences between Catholics and Protestants across the board. Uh,
but we live in a time where the significance of
doctrinal clarity is even, uh, you know, less clear than
(08:34):
it was at the beginning of that. And we need
more of that, not less. And a lot of people
are asking, is the papacy of Francis really a transition
away from kind of the doctrinal, uh, you know, uh,
emphasis of John Paul II and Benedict, uh, you know,
to something essentially more postmodern, essentially less historically Catholic, much
(08:57):
less historically Christian. So whoever, uh, and we also have
to say, by the way, that Pope Francis, uh, kind
of stack the deck. Uh, in other words, when the
conclave meets to choose the next pope, uh, vast majority
are those that were appointed by him. Mhm. And so
what does this mean for the future? Is this a
transition away from, uh, a body that is going to
(09:20):
be more clear in terms of doctrine to one that's
going to be less clear in terms of doctrine, and
that matters for for everyone. You know, really, the Catholic
Church in many ways serves as a conscience. Uh, for,
for much of Europe, for much of the world. And
that is, is kind of fractured that's going to, you know,
really matter going forward.
S2 (09:39):
What's your sense of what direction they'll go?
S3 (09:42):
Well, given, um, that, um, the, the deck is stacked
that the way it is, I, I would love to
see a return to a leader of the Roman Catholic
Church that is, uh, more along the lines of John
Paul II and Benedict. I mean, even if you look
at some of the things that Pope Benedict, uh, quoted
and said, he was even really clear on the role
(10:04):
of Jesus and grace and justification. So there were ways
that he sounded, uh, even more Protestant and on certain
matters than Catholic. And we want we want a church,
this church, to go back to the truth, not away
from the truth. And I think there's a lot of concern.
I don't hold a lot of optimism given how the
deck of Cardinals is currently stacked.
S2 (10:27):
Well, we can be praying. So, uh, one last question.
Just got about a minute, if you don't mind, John,
but just say a word, if you would, about our
High priest as Christ followers.
S3 (10:36):
Well, listen, I mean, that was the core question of
the Reformation. Is, is, uh, do we have direct access
to God in Jesus Christ? And the book of Hebrews
is very clear about that. Paul's very clear about in
the book of Romans and in the book of Ephesians. Uh,
we just celebrated the resurrection of Christ on, on Sunday.
And what that means is he is our high priest, uh,
(10:59):
and we have direct access to God through Jesus Christ.
That was a significant question of the Reformation, and it
continues to be a significant difference between Protestants and Catholics.
And it needs we need to be as clear on
it as we possibly can, uh, because that is the
truth of what Scripture teaches.
S2 (11:16):
That's so good. A guest on my show recently said
the Veil Tour two from top to bottom, not bottom
to top. As if man somehow reached God. Top to bottom.
God reached down for man because we couldn't reach him
without Jesus. So that is beautiful, John again, I know
you're such a busy man in high demand, and that
you would pivot for us means the world to me.
(11:36):
Thank you. Thank you for taking the time and I
look forward to having more conversations with you in the future.
S3 (11:41):
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. God bless.
S2 (11:44):
Lord bless you too. Jamie Whincup joins us next to
talk about how to break free from fear and live
like you really trust God. So my question for you
is how would you live if you weren't afraid of anything?
I'd love for you to call us 8775675. You can
find more about today's guest, our information resources, all of
it on the web equipped Radio.com. Don't go away. We'll
(12:05):
be back in a moment.
S1 (12:45):
Christianity speaks to every aspect of life, but sometimes we
struggle to connect God's unchanging truth to our changing world.
Apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture by Sean McDowell equips
you with the practical tools for meaningful conversation about faith,
with chapters from 26 leading Christian thinkers, including our own
(13:06):
Chris Brooks. It's our impact gift this month to you.
When you support the Ministry of Equipped, call (888)Â 644-4144 or
visit equipped radio.org.
S2 (13:22):
This is equipped with Chris Brooks coming to you from
the studios of Moody Radio. I'm Susie Larson filling in
for Chris today. Tomorrow and Thursday. So what do you
get when you send a former police officer into the
most dangerous conflict zones in the Middle East, and you
tell him he needs to bring peace and resolve conflict? Well,
you get my guest today. You're not going to believe
(13:42):
some of the stories he's about to share. But these
aren't just sensational stories. My guest today comes with a
message about our God given identity, and how living into
our true identity brings peace and dispels fear. Today I'm
talking with my friend, author, and identity ninjas like what
I like to call them Jamie Whincup. His book is
titled Living Fearless Exchanging the lies of the world for
(14:04):
the liberating truth of God. How would you live if
you weren't afraid of anything? You can get the conversation
started by giving us a call at 877675. That's (877)Â 548-3675.
Let me tell you about my guests. We'll get them
on the show. Jamie Whincup has decades of experience bringing
peaceful solutions to some of the world's highest conflict areas.
After a distinguished career in law enforcement in the metro Washington,
(14:27):
DC area, he developed a unique process called the identity method.
His unconventional efforts to bring about societal and racial reconciliation
led him to Indonesia, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Israel, and back
to the U.S. he's the author of the book we're
talking about today, Living Fearless. And then he and his wife, Donna,
co-founded Identity Exchange. It's a training and consulting agency that
(14:49):
helps people and teams discover new levels of creativity and
resiliency within the framework framework of their true, God given identity. Jamie,
I can't wait for these friends to get to know you.
Welcome to the show.
S4 (15:00):
Oh, thanks for having me. I'm so honored to be
here with you. I love always being with you, Suzy.
S2 (15:05):
Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation. Thanks so much. So
let's talk about how God led you into law enforcement. Specifically,
there's a story that has never left me. We've been
you and I have been talking monthly for years, and
it was one of the first stories you told. And
I was jaw dropped. But you were new as a
law enforcement official. You wondered if you could hear God
and that he could help you in your job. And
(15:27):
there was an abduction at the bus stop one day.
Tell us that story. And what happened?
S4 (15:32):
Yeah. Um, yeah. So I was a uniformed officer really
newly into my career that I had wanted to be
in since I was in eighth grade. So, um, happy
to be there as a believer. Um, you know, so
that was important to me. And one of the questions
I had early on first, really working the street on
my own, you know, after a training officer was, um,
(15:55):
you know, how did my faith play into what I
was doing? How how involved is God in the daily
walk of a police officer? Even in my private life,
but especially as a police officer. So I had a
lot of questions. A lot of things that I wondered about.
Didn't really know where to go other than to read
the Bible and ask God. And so, yeah, there was
(16:18):
we were working day work. There was an abduction from
a school bus stop, elementary school bus stop, which in
those days was very unusual. And so by the time
the principal called the police, it was, you know, it
had been an hour or two hours when they did
the roll call and the kid wasn't there. And then
they contacted the parents and the, you know, the parents say,
(16:39):
we saw him at the bus stop and that whole thing.
And so went to the school, the parents came to
the school. And, um, you know, in that kind of situation, no,
there's no witnesses. Elementary kids are not good witnesses, and
they weren't really paying attention to anything. And so we
don't have a description of anything, just that this kid
was there and now he's gone. I was interviewing the parents,
(17:00):
you know, to make sure it wasn't any kind of
domestic situation, which it wasn't. The mom and dad were
there and in just in the course of talking to him,
you know, I was very moved emotionally by the by
their pain. Um, had or we had two of our
sons were little at the time, and I just really
felt for the especially for the father as I was
relating to him as a dad. And so I said
(17:21):
to him, we're going to find you. We're going to
find your son. Which in the police department is not
you're not allowed to do that. You can't give that
kind of hope to a parent in a situation like this.
And so my partner at the time, senior to me,
was really chewed me out when we left the parents
and said, you know, you can't do that. That's not
the right thing to do. And I, I just felt
(17:43):
like it was the thing to say in the moment.
So we, I went, we divided up went, got in
my marked cruiser and drove away from the scene into
the area. We we had the helicopter up and, you know,
formed a perimeter and all the stuff that you do,
but really it's, you know, it's fairly hopeless now, three
hours in 3.5 hours in, no where to, no where,
(18:05):
no clue to go on. And so I was sitting
on the side of the road, not far, actually, from
the bus stop where it happened. And I was sitting
there on the side of this street, and I was
I asked God, I like, do you are how involved
are you in this kind of thing? Do you you know,
I know what I read about you in the Bible,
but do you do you know where this kid is?
(18:26):
And if you knew where he is, would you tell me?
And if you were going to reveal it to me,
how would you. How would I know? Just these kinds
of questions. And I was frustrated and, um, you know,
angry at the injustice kind of thing. And, um, and
the only thing I tell people all the time when you,
when you ask God a question, pay attention. A lot
(18:46):
of times we ask God questions and then we just
go on with our life. Instead of you lay a
question before him and wait for the answer. Look for
the answer. So I did that. I was just sitting
there and in my rear view rear view mirror. I
see this car coming up the street from behind me
just going the speed limit. Nothing unusual. Um, he he
(19:07):
comes past my cruiser and I look at the driver,
he looks at me, and I felt like someone punched
me in the stomach, or like I was really, really nauseous.
And so then it, like, connected in my mind. Okay.
You asked God a question. Um, how would he show
something to me? How he reveal this to me. And
then this car is passing. You have this very sick
(19:30):
feeling in your stomach, which I've come to very much
appreciate later in my career. Uh, and I, I just thought, okay,
this is important. And so I pull out behind the car,
and I actually drive around in front of him and
cut him off, and I get out of my cruiser,
and I walk up to the driver's side, and I
look in the car. There's no one in the car.
And I just say to the guy, get out and
(19:51):
open up your trunk right now. Just get out and
open your trunk. And he gets out. He's startled. He
gets out. He opens up the trunk, and the kid
was in the trunk of his car. Unharmed, but, you know,
in the trunk. And he was just going to wait
out the perimeter and all that because we didn't know.
And then just drive out later that night. And so I,
(20:12):
you know, I handcuffed the guy, and I have him
down on the ground and call the ambulance to come
get the kid and check on the kid, and then
the detectives come and the guy on the ground, the
suspect just kept he kept saying, how did you know?
How did you know? Like this? And I was as shocked.
All of us were shocked. The kid was shocked, I
was shocked, we were all shocked at what had happened.
(20:35):
And the. And so the investigator, the detective walks up
to me and he's like, how did you. He said,
what was your probable cause for stopping this car? And I,
I said, well, you know, I was praying. And he said, no, no, no, no, no,
you have to be able to testify in court of
why you stopped this car. Otherwise, we lose this case.
(20:55):
You know, it's a it's not a proper stop unless
you have probable cause. And and so what? That we
didn't have that wasn't that big of a deal at
the time because the guy just pled guilty. He was
so stunned by the whole thing. He just pled guilty.
And so the case was prosecuted that way. But, you know,
it was. So I learned a lot in that instance.
I learned so much about God is with us. God
(21:18):
is real. God communicates to his people. Still God's interested
in in, you know, kids and justice. And he's also
he also wants us to be able to communicate to
others about him in a language in a way that
they can understand, so that when I when I would
have to go to court later in my career, when
these things kind of things happen again and I could testify,
(21:40):
I could speak in language that a person who doesn't
have a huge religious, biblical vocabulary, I could still explain
it in such a way as that. They would understand. Um.
This is a God who works in real life in
the language of the people. Um, and so that was
the beginning. I got officer of the year for that situation,
and that early in my career was the beginning of
(22:02):
really learning the truth of what actually the scriptures say
that we serve the God who speaks. He's the God
who communicates to his creation. He always has. He leads.
He guides us through his word, through his spirit, through people,
through circumstances. And so I just I just decided, okay,
I'm going to explore this as deeply as I can,
(22:26):
not only not only in my career, of course, but
also just in my regular life with my kids and
my wife. And what does it look like to really
hear from God? Especially when we're afraid, especially when we're
dealing with fearful situations.
S2 (22:43):
And we've just got a couple of minutes before our break.
But just friends for you to know. Just to catch
you up. It got to the point where God was
speaking to Jamie, leading him to help solve so many
cases that he was called in by the government. And
they asked him, how is it that you're solving all
these cases? And he was able to say, I pray
and God speaks. And you also got very skilled in
(23:03):
navigating these cases. And on the other side of the break,
we'll talk about how you went to the Middle East
and you, you, you know, were face to face with
Muslims who said they wanted to kill you. And in
their face they didn't know you knew Arabic, and you
were able to point them to Jesus and teach them
about their identity. And so with just about a minute
and a half left, just talk about this, if you would, Jamie,
about how connected fear is with our false identity, how
(23:27):
often fear keeps us in our false identity.
S4 (23:32):
Well, we can just say, generally speaking, fear shuts down creativity.
Fear shuts down the human ability to receive new information,
new ideas, new ways of thinking. And so, um, if
that's the case, if you're if you're if your fear
is the decision maker in your life is self protection
or self promotion becomes sort of the way you live
(23:54):
your life, you're you're incapable of receiving from God. And
so you, you know, it's like the Israelites walk all
the way across the wilderness and come up to the land,
and the Lord's like, let's go. And they're like, we
they can't receive the land because they are afraid. And
they see themselves as grasshoppers in their own eyes. And
they and they actually will walk away from something that
(24:17):
God is inviting them into. That's the danger of fear
in our lives that will actually walk away from something
where the Lord is saying, follow me into this. And
we're saying, we can't. We're we're grasshoppers in our own eyes.
S2 (24:30):
So when you think about friend listening today, what's your imprinted,
God given identity might be? And I want you to
think about that and even a creative way, like based
on some of the things I've learned from Jamie this
last year for Christmas, for a bunch of gifts for
people that are very dear to me. I got them
identity bracelets. So one of my sisters, I got heart
healer because she ministers to the heart so so much.
(24:51):
Another one is faith initiator because she initiates faith in
the hearts of people. So if you were just to
just guess at one of the things God has called
you to, how would you say your identity plays out? (877)Â 548-3675.
And otherwise, maybe you have a question about how to
break free from fear so that you can walk in
(25:11):
your true identity. We've got handfuls of copies of Jamie's book,
Living Fearless Exchanging the lies for the Liberating Truth of God. Eight. Seven. Seven.
I'm sorry. There it is. (877)Â 548-3675. If you got a
question for Jamie, give us a call. But otherwise, if
you know your identity, if you have a sense, like
one of mine I think is warrior healer, I want
(25:32):
to help people. I want to fight for people to
get healed and be whole so they can go on
and do everything God has for them to do. How
about you? Why don't you give us a call? 48. Three. Six. Seven. Five.
We'll be back in a minute. This is equipped with
(26:20):
Chris Brooks coming to you from the studios of Moody Radio.
I'm Suzy Larsen, filling in for Chris today, tomorrow and Thursday.
I'm talking with Jamie Winship about living fearlessly, about truly
embracing who you are because of who Jesus is. What
would you do? How would you live if you weren't
afraid of anything? What is your sense in your moments
when you know you're loved by God? What's your sense
(26:41):
of your God given identity? Like, what are you called
to do if you're not afraid? When you're not in
your head, when you're not in yourself? Do you tend
towards helping people heal, helping people be mobilized in their calling? (877)Â 548-3675.
Got a handful of copies of Jamie's book to give away.
Quick note though, if you've been blessed by this show,
we'd love to have you partner with us. Do you
(27:02):
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Would you prayerfully consider that when you give monthly, you
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(27:22):
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(27:44):
our newest equipper, Vicky in Michigan. Welcome to the team.
So what about you? We'd love for you to join us!
Visit us online at equipped radio.org or call 888644 4144. Again,
I'm talking today with my friend Jamie Winship about living
fearlessly and truly embracing who we are because of who
Jesus is. And Jamie, we've got a friend calling today
(28:04):
who wants to know how to break free from fear.
And having talked with you for so long over the
last several years, it seems like of all the fears
that get in the way of us being ourselves, it's
fear of man. Often it might be fear of safety,
fear of not having enough. But I'd say more often
than not, from what I see, it's fear of not
being enough. So, Chris, welcome to the show. You're on
the air with Jamie Winship.
S5 (28:25):
Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.
S2 (28:28):
What's your question for Jamie today?
S5 (28:32):
Well, my question is. So I believe I'm gifted in speaking.
I'm gifted in, um, being able to speak life into
others and things of that nature. I do have a
business based on that, and there's a lot of times
that I struggle with fear of rejection. I struggle with
fear of what people might think and their perspective about
(28:52):
what I'm doing. I'm focused on fear of not getting
engagement on social media and being ridiculed, ridiculed and things
like that. And I believe that's holding me back from
what God truly has for me. And I just want
to know, how can I get through that?
S2 (29:08):
Love that question, Jamie. What do you say to Chris?
S4 (29:11):
Yeah. Thanks, Chris. That's a that's such a great question.
And it's it's such a common fear. So let me
just tell you something about fear in general that I
think will really help you is so in human beings.
Human beings are only born with two built in fears.
So we only have two innate fears. It's the fear
of falling and the fear of loud noises. So infants
(29:33):
have those two fears. All other fear is learned. Okay,
that's really important. So that when so when we truth
tell or confess about our fear what as you're doing
really well and that's a beautiful first step is like,
here's what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of rejection. I'm
afraid of, um, being made fun of which is a
(29:56):
similar fear. That fear is learned. Okay. So that means
somewhere earlier in your life, you you attempted to speak
or you were speaking in a situation could have been
you and one other person, but in that situation you
were rejected, made fun of whether it was a real
(30:18):
rejection or a real mockery. It doesn't matter. It's perceived
by you as that. And in those situations we learn
to fear. Okay, I spoke, I got rejected. So you're
basically believing something about the world. You're saying, okay, when
I speak, I'm going to get rejected. I'm going to
be made fun of. And so then that kind of
(30:40):
gets is if we agree with that, it's not true.
But if we agree with it, it gets sealed in
as true. And so then your brain from that point on,
anytime you go into a similar situation, your amygdala will
remind you, hey, the last time you did this, you
got rejected and made fun of and it will shut
you down. That's what you're that's what your brain is
(31:01):
made to do. It's to protect you. However, this the
importance is, is to take those thoughts captive. This is
what Corinthians is talking about. Don't don't let your mind
run you. It's like if you if you and I
were together, I would say, okay, let's talk about the
very first time you felt rejected. And as Susie's been saying,
that becomes an identity. I am the rejected one. I
(31:24):
am the one who gets made fun of, and therefore
I can't speak publicly. That identity your being informs your
doing so what you want to do. And this is
the value of prayer and intercession with God is to say, Lord,
when was the first time I believed the lie that
I'm inadequate to speak, or I'm not good enough to
(31:46):
do what you've invited me into? Remind me of that time,
and then, Lord, walk me through what was false about it.
Give the lie to the Lord and say, what did
you say about that day? What did Jesus, you are
with me on that day? What do you say about
me on that day? And let the Lord speak truth
into you. Because when we know and experience truth, the
(32:07):
truth sets us free. So it's overcoming that identity, really,
that false identity that will enable you to to be
more courageous in stepping out when you have the opportunity
to speak. I hope that makes sense to you.
S2 (32:21):
It's beautiful. Chris, thank you for that call. Stay on
the line. I want to get you a copy of
Jamie's book. You will love it. I think it's very timely.
I tend to think that when we start to feel
restless about these fears and we're noticing them, it's because
God has a next place of promise for you. So
it's time to deal. It's time to face it and
see what God will do. As he lifts that out
of you, and you start believing the amazing truth about you,
that you bear his image and you've got an identity
(32:44):
imprinted on you that contributes to the kingdom. And if
you don't mind, I would love for you, Jamie, to tell.
I call it your Jason Bourne story. I love this
story so much. And, uh, go ahead and set that
one up. I see more calls coming in and we'll
get to as many as we can. But you've got
to hear the story. Someone else called in, asked about
how you introduced Jesus to your Muslim friends. And this
(33:04):
sort of ties into that a little bit. Talk about
your Jason Bourne story.
S4 (33:08):
Okay, I think there's a few with him in it,
but I'll tell the one I think you mean. So
this is this is me speaking at an event. I
was speaking at an event in, um, in my vocation,
you know, in international relations. And this person comes up
to me and challenges me on what I was saying
about God speaking and that kind of thing. And, um,
you know, wanted to know if I was the real deal.
(33:28):
That was the question. Are you the real deal? Which
which is, can it produce fear in a person? Yeah.
If you get your identity from what people think about you.
And so I said, well, I can tell you I
think I'm the real deal, but that would mean I'm
not the real deal. So why don't you come with
me and see for yourself what God can do in
these situations, especially with, um, militant Islamic situation. So we
(33:50):
went together, uh, he and I and another guy, um,
overseas into this very difficult tribal situation where there was
a lot of terrorist activity and recruitment going on. And
we went in to stay among this group, um, that
you had to go in at night. It was in
the middle of the Sahara Desert, and you had to
go in at night. So we go in at night.
(34:10):
And I told the two guys with me because I'd
been there before, you know, when we get up tomorrow,
they're going to set a place for us to eat
in another big tent, and it's on the floor. That's
how they eat. But they won't come in with us
because that's their custom to let the guest eat in privacy.
So we go in there, there's three of us. We
sit down at this table that's set up on the
(34:30):
ground and, uh, and there's four places set. And my
friend who's who we call, we'll call Jason Bourne, because
that's who he is. That's his very much like the
character in the movie. In every way that you can imagine.
He's he says, why are there? Who's the other person coming?
And I said, I don't know. I've never seen him
set an extra place before. And he got really enamored
(34:51):
with this because every time we were sent to a
room to eat, there was four places for three of us. Um,
the context that we're in was we were meeting with
these imams, these tribal leaders, and one of them in
particular was super hostile towards us, um, you know, very threatening.
And in this situation, we're in there alone. We're unarmed. Really?
(35:12):
Nobody knows where where we are or.
S6 (35:14):
And he won't find us. Yeah, exactly.
S4 (35:17):
And they they definitely wanted us dead. One this one person. Um,
what was weird was the restraint of the other, the
other leaders in there who were of the same group.
And so we were with them. We had been there
several days and one evening we were sitting with these leaders.
It's still pretty tense, but my friend Jason Bourne wants
to know about. He's consumed with knowing about this extra
(35:39):
place setting. And and so he he asked the leader,
all of a sudden he can speak the language of
the group. I didn't know he could speak that language,
but I don't know half the language as this guy
can speak. And he says, why do you set four
places when there's three of us in the room and
the the leader, the Muslim leader? He says, well, for
the for the four of you, there's four of you.
(36:02):
And he Jason Bourne looks at me and he's like,
what is he talking about? And I knew, because I've
seen this happen before. I had a feeling what they
were saying. And so Jason Bourne says, what do you
what do you mean? There's four of us, like, what
are you talking about? And they said, for your security guys.
And that your security guy, the one that's always standing
guard while you guys are at sleep. He's outside right now.
(36:24):
He's outside the tent right now. Your security guy. And
and Jason Bourne says, security guy, what does he look like?
And they said, well, he's bigger than you guys, but
we wanted to ask you a question about him. Why
does he have he has a sword. He's carrying a
sword as a weapon like that's. We'd have never seen
a security guy with a sword like that. And then
(36:45):
then I then I definitely knew what it was. And
then the lead Muslim guy says to Jason Bourne, you
guys can't see him, can you? You can't see your
security guy, can you? And then they start, they switch
to using the word Malacca, which which means angel. And
they said, oh my gosh, you your security guy is
(37:06):
an angel. And their fear of that security guy was
what kept us from being, I don't know, murdered or
something in the night. Wow. So what was super interesting
about that was when so they. So then it was
this big thing that we have. An angel of the
Lord is our security guy. And clearly God has sent us. We're.
God is. We're part of God's team. And when we
(37:28):
were alone back into the tent that night. This is
the guy that asked me, Jason Bourne's the one that said,
are you the real deal? He said to me, he
said to me, how do you how many, how many
beings do you think are in this darkness with us
right now? And I said, I don't know. He said, Mike,
I want to ask you a question. I'm trying to
ask God a question, but I can't hear from him.
(37:49):
And this was the whole point of everything. He the
whole reason he came with me and all that was.
He was afraid. He can't hear from God. That was
his whole fear. But he wanted to wait till he
knew that I that God was real before he would
ask me this question. So while the angel is convincing
the Muslims of God's reality, he's also convincing us of
God's reality.
S2 (38:09):
This unbelieving Jason Bourne we have to break here. But
so this guy was hearing you hear talk about hearing
from God, and he had questions on his own. So
he thought, and you had the guts to say, I
don't know if I'm the real deal. How about you
come with me and find out when we come back?
You're going to hear the rest of that story. Then
we'll grab more calls. Because this is such an important
conversation today. Because how would you live if you weren't
(38:32):
afraid of anything? How would you live if you knew
that you're the object of God's affection and he's already
decided about you? You can trust him. Jamie Winship's my guest,
and we will be back in just a moment. Here's
that number. One more time. (877)Â 548-3675. We'll be back in
a minute.
S1 (39:13):
We live in a culture whose needs and obstacles to
faith are constantly shifting. Sean McDowell's book apologetics for an
Ever Changing Culture, addresses many current issues and will help
you share and defend the gospel with relevant answers. It's
our thank you gift for supporting equipped this month. We'll
send you a copy with your gift of any amount
(39:35):
to equipped. Just call (888)Â 644-4144 or visit equipped radio.org. That's
(888)Â 644-4144 or online@radio.org.
S2 (39:53):
This is equipped with Chris Brooks coming to you from
the studios of Moody Radio. I'm Susie Larson filling in
for Chris today, tomorrow and Thursday. Talking to my friend
Jamie Winship about living fearlessly, truly embracing who we are
because of who Jesus is, his book, Living Fearlessly. I
see a few calls. We're going to try to squeeze
you in before the end of the show. Before the break, Jamie,
you were talking about how the government sent you to
(40:14):
the Middle East as a as a peacekeeper to really
get into the middle of these conflicts and bring peace.
And you had freedom to somehow, some way, help people
hear from God in this situation. You were teaching on
the US side and a Jason Bourne type figure who
had to have special clearance to travel because he was
so equipped in so many ways. I wanted to know,
are you the real deal? You brought him with you
(40:36):
and you guys, I think were out in the desert,
but you're in a tent. You've got some Muslims saying,
let's kill them now. And you come to find out
that they had set an extra spot for dinner because
they saw someone standing outside your tent guarding. And it
was it turned out to be an angel because you
did not have security detail. You're back at the tent
with your Jason Bourne friend who had wanted to know.
(40:56):
Can you hear from God? Take us to that point
of the story. Just got a few minutes left and
I want to grab a couple of calls as well.
S4 (41:02):
Yeah. So he. Yeah. So he, he he's the one
that's become convinced. Not that maybe that I'm the real deal,
but that God's the real deal. And so he said,
I've been trying to hear from God and I can't
hear from God, and I don't know why. And I said,
what are you asking him? And he said, I want
to know why we can't have kids. And that was
the deep question of his heart that he really wanted
(41:24):
to get to. Um, and so I said, well, God
is not famous for answering why questions, but he'll always
tell you what he wants you to know about something.
So ask him, what does he want you to know
about having kids? And so he prayed that prayer. And
then he just he just said to me, okay, I'm in.
Because like, suddenly there was this receptivity in him. Um,
(41:45):
and then, um, and then the Lord talked to him
about kids and, um, and why that was an issue.
And he went home and shared it with his wife.
And today they have four kids. And it was a
beautiful just showing you how God just wants to walk
us in. And it's our fear that that prevents us
from receiving or we need to, you know, we need
(42:06):
to have things proven to us.
S2 (42:07):
So there's so much more to that story. Friends, I
wish we had time. But one of the identity imprinted
identities that Jamie has is an untier of knots. He
helps people get to the root of why you're locked up,
why you're afraid. And we've got a friend calling in
from Wheaton, Illinois, Darlene, and she said, I don't see
myself as fearful, but recently I've had things happen that
show me I actually am fearful. I'm actually shut down.
(42:30):
This interview is timely. Will you pray for me? Darlene,
it's so great to have you on the air. And
I've got Jamie Winship on, and we would love to
pray for you. Anything you want to add to your
question or comment? Darlene, before we pray.
S7 (42:41):
I just want to thank you for being on today, Jamie,
because through reading and other people suggesting that there might
be fear in my life, um, I've started to think
that maybe that's the reason for a real sad heaviness
that I've had for the last three months. And listening
to you today, um, has really confirmed that it is fear.
(43:06):
I've never seen myself as fearful, but, um, these circumstances
I'm dealing with have been there for years, and so
for them to suddenly become so sad and heavy the
last three months. I believe it's fear and I thank
you for sharing.
S2 (43:24):
Bless you. Anything you want to say before we pray
for her? Jamie.
S4 (43:27):
Yeah. Darlene. So first of all, let me just encourage
you that negative emotion is an invitation to transformation. It's
not it. It's not bad. God gave us the capacity
to feel negative emotion. It's like him calling you on
the phone saying, let me talk to you. So confession
is going to the Lord and saying telling him the
(43:48):
truth about the way you feel, what you truly believe,
and then the Lord leading you into repentance, which is
a new way of thinking about him, yourself and others.
So I feel your emotion, but I'm excited for what
God is inviting you into. So I just want you
to I want to encourage you with that.
S2 (44:07):
And Darlene, you're going to get a copy of Jamie's book.
So hang on the line after get your information. So
this book, I think, will be a great catalyst to
you walking free. I echo what he said. I believe
so strongly that this is an invitation, not a condemnation,
an invitation to something new. And so, Lord, we pray
for our dear sister. I thank you that you love
her with an everlasting love, that this is not a
surprise to you and you're not in a hurry. God,
(44:30):
you move us at the pace of grace. And so
I pray that you'd tilt her chin upward. Give her
eyes to see her next place of promise. Show her
what it would look like to break free from that
kind of fear. To not let the enemy have the
last say in her story. So that she could live
as one who's loved and spoken for. Give her a
(44:50):
vision for what freedom might look like. In Jesus name. Amen. Darlene,
thank you for your call today. We just have about
a minute left, and I want to read a couple
of quick excerpts and just give you some final thoughts here.
The journey in discovering your true identity in the Kingdom
of God is an eternal journey. There's no end to
the depths of who God made you to be. Just
(45:10):
got about a minute left, but talk about that. It's
not even a once and done because we are people
in process, and healing is never linear. It's just, you know,
it's from one glory to the next. Speak to that
if you would.
S4 (45:23):
Yeah, absolutely. It's just like growing, you know, as a kid,
you grow up and you discover things about yourself and
things that you're good at and things that you have
to work harder at. But the beauty of the relationship with,
with the Lord is, is especially the Lord, the one,
the God who communicates to us. He's not an idol.
He's he's alive and he loves us. And so to
(45:44):
be continually asking God and not being afraid to say
to God, God, how do you see me? Who do
you say that I am? What do you think about me?
We're afraid to ask these questions because of our own
view of ourselves or the world's view of us. We
don't want to go by that. We want to go
by what? The Lord, the one who loves you above
all else, who made you. We want to know what
(46:05):
the Lord says about us. So I just I encourage
people never be afraid to say, Lord, how do you
see me right now? I'm afraid I feel insecure. I insecure.
I feel like I'm not enough. What do you say?
How do you see me? And. And let him love
you with his everlasting love.
S6 (46:21):
And be encouraged.
S4 (46:22):
By.
S6 (46:23):
It.
S2 (46:23):
Amen. Let him love you with his everlasting love. I
dare you to ask God, where am I not trusting you?
Where am I believing a lie? Jamie, thanks for joining
us today. Fantastic conversation. Appreciate you so much.
S6 (46:35):
Thanks for having me.
S2 (46:36):
Oh, and I hope you found some encouragement here today.
If you need more information about our guests and resources,
hop on online at Radio.com. Join us tomorrow at the
same time as I talk with author and pastor Alan Wright.
We talk about the power of shame. So grateful to
join you today. I'm Suzy Larsen and from all of
us at equipped. Thanks for listening today. Equipped is a
production of Moody Radio, a ministry of the Moody Bible Institute.
(46:59):
We love you. We're praying for you. And we'll meet
you back here next time.
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equipped with Chris Brooks! I am so thrilled you've joined
us today. Why don't you do me a favor? Strap
on your seatbelt. We're going to navigate through the contours
of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical
worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you,
this is the day that the Lord has made. He
is giving it as a gift so that you and
(00:42):
I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's
do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul.
Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice.
I hope you're having a great day. I'm going to
be away from the program today, but I want you
to join me in welcoming Susie Larson to the hot seat. Now,
many of you know Susie. She's a best selling author, speaker,
(01:06):
radio host. She loves Jesus, and most of all loves
helping people draw into a deeper life in Christ. She's
also a wife, a, a mother and a grandmother as well. Susie,
thank you for hosting this edition of equip.
S2 (01:22):
Well, Chris, we love you and we're praying for you.
So honored to be sitting in for you today, tomorrow,
and the next day. And friends, I'm so honored to
be with you again. We've got a really important conversation
up ahead. You know, living in today's culture, it can
ignite anxiety and fear in the most stout hearted believers.
And if you're not careful, it's easy to lose sight
of who God is and even who you are. So
in a moment, my friend, author and identity expert Jamie
(01:44):
Winship joins us to talk about how fear impacts our
truest sense of identity. He likes to ask this question
how would you live if you weren't afraid of anything?
You think about that for a moment. And the two
most important questions he tells us to ask God when
we're facing our fears are these. God, what do you
want me to know? What do you want me to
do to think about those as well? We're going to
(02:06):
get Jamie on in just a moment, but if you
are a regular listener to equipped, you know, Chris makes
it a habit to speak to the news items of
the day from a biblical worldview. And yesterday morning, we
received the news that Pope Francis passed away just a
day after he made the appearance at the Vatican balcony,
sharing a message delivered by an aide to those gathered
at the Easter Sunday in Saint Peter's Square. We could
(02:28):
not think of anyone better than John Stonestreet to address this.
He's a president of Colson Center for Christianity Christian Worldview.
He's an honored guest. He's a great friend of the kingdom. And, John,
I know you had to pivot to join us today.
Thanks for joining us on such short notice.
S3 (02:42):
Oh, hey, listen, thanks so much for having me. It's
a I appreciate it. And good to talk to you, Susie.
S2 (02:47):
Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation. So talk to us
if you would. This can be a lightning rod topic.
To be honest, I've been watching comments on on the
online and people have opinions all over the place. So
talk to us about who Pope Francis was.
S3 (03:01):
Right. It is a and it needs to be. I mean,
there was a reformation that was fought over this and
and it's a reformation that really in many ways continues.
But Francis was a kind of a pope that could
be called a pope. At first, he was the first
to have been first pope to have been born in
the Americas, the first one since the eighth century to
not have been born in Europe. Uh, the first Jesuit pope. Uh,
(03:24):
that's significant. And of course, he took the name of
Saint Francis in honor of Saint Francis of Assisi. And
that really reflected, I think, the kind of the non-European
context in which he was born in Argentina to an
Italian immigrant family. Uh, almost immediately, uh, he kind of
established himself as someone who kind of wanted to reject
(03:47):
the trappings of clerical office. He, you know, took public transportation.
He cooked for himself. Uh, many people noted that he
chose orthopedic shoes when he became pope, over the red
slippers that were common for the, uh, the office. Um,
and he talked a lot about immigrants, and he talked
a lot about caring for the poor and wanted to
see the church kind of go in that direction. But
(04:11):
there was also a key aspect in which, when it
came to issues of doctrine, uh, there was a oftentimes
a lack of clarity. Uh, probably the most famous moment
of his papacy was when asked about gay marriage and
he said, who am I to judge? And you know
the answer that a lot of us thought at the
time was, you're the Pope. You are exactly the one
(04:31):
to judge. But it was like he was super clear
when it came to issues of charity and benevolence. But
when it came to issues of sexuality and doctrine and
exclusivity of Christ and other things, he refused to have
that same sort of clarity. And that was a big contrast, uh,
(04:52):
from the two popes that he followed. Uh, John Paul II,
of course, known for a remarkable set of teachings that
became known as theology of the body, which really reestablished
Catholic teaching on things like sexuality and birth control and
marriage and and mothering and fathering and so on. And then,
of course, Benedict, who became pope because he was basically
(05:15):
John Paul II's theologian. And so the shift to the
papacy of Francis was also, you know, people wondered, is
this a transition for the office away from being so
stringent on doctrine and now being kind of more loving? And,
of course, the national media, uh, and international media that
(05:40):
tended to be left leaning tended to be, uh, anti
some of the Christian positions that have always defined the
church and, and Christian teaching. We're excited about that. They
wanted to see that change and compromise happen, especially when
it comes to issues of sexuality.
S2 (05:57):
You know, it's interesting because when this topic is brought up,
especially on Christian radio, you'll have all kinds of feelings
about it, people. Some express anger and frustration that we're
talking about it at all. Others would wonder why we
don't talk about it more. But you really say that
this position of Pope is so influential in our culture
that it needs to be addressed. So speak to that
if you would.
S3 (06:18):
Well, it's influential in our culture. And by our I mean,
I'm assuming you mean America. But, you know, one of
the ways that it became influential under Pope Francis is
that many of the American bishops stood against some of
the changes that were taking place under his papacy and
under his his leadership. They wanted to be more clear
on particular social issues. And that wasn't the case when
(06:39):
it came to cardinals and bishops around the world. But
you have to remember, I mean, the Roman Catholic Church,
the pope is, quote unquote, the leader of 1.3 billion people.
It is the largest single religious body on the planet.
And in that sense, and, um, you know, that's why
it's big. And we also know, too, just as recently
(07:00):
as the latter part of the 20th century, that the
pope played a significant role in world events. I mean,
you think about the role that John Paul II played
in the downfall of communism. Many people point to, uh,
you know him as well as, uh, Margaret Thatcher, Ronald
Reagan throwing Billy Graham as having kind of a significant
(07:21):
influence in cracking that kind of wall, uh, that divided, uh,
the USSR and this, you know, basically the communist side
of the planet from the western side of the planet
or the free side of the planet. And so that's
I mean, you know, it's just it's a major position.
There's few people that are better known on the planet
(07:42):
than the Pope. Um, and of course, one of the
questions is, does that continue now, or are we seeing
some sort of, uh, you know, decline, uh, in terms
of the role of a conservative religious leader or a
religious leader on the planet?
S2 (07:57):
So how should we as Christians be praying and what
should we be watching for? I mean, as you said,
because he's such an influential leader, it does matter, uh,
where they go next and what direction they take. So
how do you suggest we pray?
S3 (08:11):
Well, listen, we don't want a religious leader that represents Christianity. And,
you know, listen, I don't think that I think the
Reformation was over significant issues and that there are really
irreconcilable differences between Catholics and Protestants across the board. Uh,
but we live in a time where the significance of
doctrinal clarity is even, uh, you know, less clear than
(08:34):
it was at the beginning of that. And we need
more of that, not less. And a lot of people
are asking, is the papacy of Francis really a transition
away from kind of the doctrinal, uh, you know, uh,
emphasis of John Paul II and Benedict, uh, you know,
to something essentially more postmodern, essentially less historically Catholic, much
(08:57):
less historically Christian. So whoever, uh, and we also have
to say, by the way, that Pope Francis, uh, kind
of stack the deck. Uh, in other words, when the
conclave meets to choose the next pope, uh, vast majority
are those that were appointed by him. Mhm. And so
what does this mean for the future? Is this a
transition away from, uh, a body that is going to
(09:20):
be more clear in terms of doctrine to one that's
going to be less clear in terms of doctrine, and
that matters for for everyone. You know, really, the Catholic
Church in many ways serves as a conscience. Uh, for,
for much of Europe, for much of the world. And
that is, is kind of fractured that's going to, you know,
really matter going forward.
S2 (09:39):
What's your sense of what direction they'll go?
S3 (09:42):
Well, given, um, that, um, the, the deck is stacked
that the way it is, I, I would love to
see a return to a leader of the Roman Catholic
Church that is, uh, more along the lines of John
Paul II and Benedict. I mean, even if you look
at some of the things that Pope Benedict, uh, quoted
and said, he was even really clear on the role
(10:04):
of Jesus and grace and justification. So there were ways
that he sounded, uh, even more Protestant and on certain
matters than Catholic. And we want we want a church,
this church, to go back to the truth, not away
from the truth. And I think there's a lot of concern.
I don't hold a lot of optimism given how the
deck of Cardinals is currently stacked.
S2 (10:27):
Well, we can be praying. So, uh, one last question.
Just got about a minute, if you don't mind, John,
but just say a word, if you would, about our
High priest as Christ followers.
S3 (10:36):
Well, listen, I mean, that was the core question of
the Reformation. Is, is, uh, do we have direct access
to God in Jesus Christ? And the book of Hebrews
is very clear about that. Paul's very clear about in
the book of Romans and in the book of Ephesians. Uh,
we just celebrated the resurrection of Christ on, on Sunday.
And what that means is he is our high priest, uh,
(10:59):
and we have direct access to God through Jesus Christ.
That was a significant question of the Reformation, and it
continues to be a significant difference between Protestants and Catholics.
And it needs we need to be as clear on
it as we possibly can, uh, because that is the
truth of what Scripture teaches.
S2 (11:16):
That's so good. A guest on my show recently said
the Veil Tour two from top to bottom, not bottom
to top. As if man somehow reached God. Top to bottom.
God reached down for man because we couldn't reach him
without Jesus. So that is beautiful, John again, I know
you're such a busy man in high demand, and that
you would pivot for us means the world to me.
(11:36):
Thank you. Thank you for taking the time and I
look forward to having more conversations with you in the future.
S3 (11:41):
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. God bless.
S2 (11:44):
Lord bless you too. Jamie Whincup joins us next to
talk about how to break free from fear and live
like you really trust God. So my question for you
is how would you live if you weren't afraid of anything?
I'd love for you to call us 8775675. You can
find more about today's guest, our information resources, all of
it on the web equipped Radio.com. Don't go away. We'll
(12:05):
be back in a moment.
S1 (12:45):
Christianity speaks to every aspect of life, but sometimes we
struggle to connect God's unchanging truth to our changing world.
Apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture by Sean McDowell equips
you with the practical tools for meaningful conversation about faith,
with chapters from 26 leading Christian thinkers, including our own
(13:06):
Chris Brooks. It's our impact gift this month to you.
When you support the Ministry of Equipped, call (888)Â 644-4144 or
visit equipped radio.org.
S2 (13:22):
This is equipped with Chris Brooks coming to you from
the studios of Moody Radio. I'm Susie Larson filling in
for Chris today. Tomorrow and Thursday. So what do you
get when you send a former police officer into the
most dangerous conflict zones in the Middle East, and you
tell him he needs to bring peace and resolve conflict? Well,
you get my guest today. You're not going to believe
(13:42):
some of the stories he's about to share. But these
aren't just sensational stories. My guest today comes with a
message about our God given identity, and how living into
our true identity brings peace and dispels fear. Today I'm
talking with my friend, author, and identity ninjas like what
I like to call them Jamie Whincup. His book is
titled Living Fearless Exchanging the lies of the world for
(14:04):
the liberating truth of God. How would you live if
you weren't afraid of anything? You can get the conversation
started by giving us a call at 877675. That's (877)Â 548-3675.
Let me tell you about my guests. We'll get them
on the show. Jamie Whincup has decades of experience bringing
peaceful solutions to some of the world's highest conflict areas.
After a distinguished career in law enforcement in the metro Washington,
(14:27):
DC area, he developed a unique process called the identity method.
His unconventional efforts to bring about societal and racial reconciliation
led him to Indonesia, Jordan, Iraq, Palestine, Israel, and back
to the U.S. he's the author of the book we're
talking about today, Living Fearless. And then he and his wife, Donna,
co-founded Identity Exchange. It's a training and consulting agency that
(14:49):
helps people and teams discover new levels of creativity and
resiliency within the framework framework of their true, God given identity. Jamie,
I can't wait for these friends to get to know you.
Welcome to the show.
S4 (15:00):
Oh, thanks for having me. I'm so honored to be
here with you. I love always being with you, Suzy.
S2 (15:05):
Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation. Thanks so much. So
let's talk about how God led you into law enforcement. Specifically,
there's a story that has never left me. We've been
you and I have been talking monthly for years, and
it was one of the first stories you told. And
I was jaw dropped. But you were new as a
law enforcement official. You wondered if you could hear God
and that he could help you in your job. And
(15:27):
there was an abduction at the bus stop one day.
Tell us that story. And what happened?
S4 (15:32):
Yeah. Um, yeah. So I was a uniformed officer really
newly into my career that I had wanted to be
in since I was in eighth grade. So, um, happy
to be there as a believer. Um, you know, so
that was important to me. And one of the questions
I had early on first, really working the street on
my own, you know, after a training officer was, um,
(15:55):
you know, how did my faith play into what I
was doing? How how involved is God in the daily
walk of a police officer? Even in my private life,
but especially as a police officer. So I had a
lot of questions. A lot of things that I wondered about.
Didn't really know where to go other than to read
the Bible and ask God. And so, yeah, there was
(16:18):
we were working day work. There was an abduction from
a school bus stop, elementary school bus stop, which in
those days was very unusual. And so by the time
the principal called the police, it was, you know, it
had been an hour or two hours when they did
the roll call and the kid wasn't there. And then
they contacted the parents and the, you know, the parents say,
(16:39):
we saw him at the bus stop and that whole thing.
And so went to the school, the parents came to
the school. And, um, you know, in that kind of situation, no,
there's no witnesses. Elementary kids are not good witnesses, and
they weren't really paying attention to anything. And so we
don't have a description of anything, just that this kid
was there and now he's gone. I was interviewing the parents,
(17:00):
you know, to make sure it wasn't any kind of
domestic situation, which it wasn't. The mom and dad were
there and in just in the course of talking to him,
you know, I was very moved emotionally by the by
their pain. Um, had or we had two of our
sons were little at the time, and I just really
felt for the especially for the father as I was
relating to him as a dad. And so I said
(17:21):
to him, we're going to find you. We're going to
find your son. Which in the police department is not
you're not allowed to do that. You can't give that
kind of hope to a parent in a situation like this.
And so my partner at the time, senior to me,
was really chewed me out when we left the parents
and said, you know, you can't do that. That's not
the right thing to do. And I, I just felt
(17:43):
like it was the thing to say in the moment.
So we, I went, we divided up went, got in
my marked cruiser and drove away from the scene into
the area. We we had the helicopter up and, you know,
formed a perimeter and all the stuff that you do,
but really it's, you know, it's fairly hopeless now, three
hours in 3.5 hours in, no where to, no where,
(18:05):
no clue to go on. And so I was sitting
on the side of the road, not far, actually, from
the bus stop where it happened. And I was sitting
there on the side of this street, and I was
I asked God, I like, do you are how involved
are you in this kind of thing? Do you you know,
I know what I read about you in the Bible,
but do you do you know where this kid is?
(18:26):
And if you knew where he is, would you tell me?
And if you were going to reveal it to me,
how would you. How would I know? Just these kinds
of questions. And I was frustrated and, um, you know,
angry at the injustice kind of thing. And, um, and
the only thing I tell people all the time when you,
when you ask God a question, pay attention. A lot
(18:46):
of times we ask God questions and then we just
go on with our life. Instead of you lay a
question before him and wait for the answer. Look for
the answer. So I did that. I was just sitting
there and in my rear view rear view mirror. I
see this car coming up the street from behind me
just going the speed limit. Nothing unusual. Um, he he
(19:07):
comes past my cruiser and I look at the driver,
he looks at me, and I felt like someone punched
me in the stomach, or like I was really, really nauseous.
And so then it, like, connected in my mind. Okay.
You asked God a question. Um, how would he show
something to me? How he reveal this to me. And
then this car is passing. You have this very sick
(19:30):
feeling in your stomach, which I've come to very much
appreciate later in my career. Uh, and I, I just thought, okay,
this is important. And so I pull out behind the car,
and I actually drive around in front of him and
cut him off, and I get out of my cruiser,
and I walk up to the driver's side, and I
look in the car. There's no one in the car.
And I just say to the guy, get out and
(19:51):
open up your trunk right now. Just get out and
open your trunk. And he gets out. He's startled. He
gets out. He opens up the trunk, and the kid
was in the trunk of his car. Unharmed, but, you know,
in the trunk. And he was just going to wait
out the perimeter and all that because we didn't know.
And then just drive out later that night. And so I,
(20:12):
you know, I handcuffed the guy, and I have him
down on the ground and call the ambulance to come
get the kid and check on the kid, and then
the detectives come and the guy on the ground, the
suspect just kept he kept saying, how did you know?
How did you know? Like this? And I was as shocked.
All of us were shocked. The kid was shocked, I
was shocked, we were all shocked at what had happened.
(20:35):
And the. And so the investigator, the detective walks up
to me and he's like, how did you. He said,
what was your probable cause for stopping this car? And I,
I said, well, you know, I was praying. And he said, no, no, no, no, no,
you have to be able to testify in court of
why you stopped this car. Otherwise, we lose this case.
(20:55):
You know, it's a it's not a proper stop unless
you have probable cause. And and so what? That we
didn't have that wasn't that big of a deal at
the time because the guy just pled guilty. He was
so stunned by the whole thing. He just pled guilty.
And so the case was prosecuted that way. But, you know,
it was. So I learned a lot in that instance.
I learned so much about God is with us. God
(21:18):
is real. God communicates to his people. Still God's interested
in in, you know, kids and justice. And he's also
he also wants us to be able to communicate to
others about him in a language in a way that
they can understand, so that when I when I would
have to go to court later in my career, when
these things kind of things happen again and I could testify,
(21:40):
I could speak in language that a person who doesn't
have a huge religious, biblical vocabulary, I could still explain
it in such a way as that. They would understand. Um.
This is a God who works in real life in
the language of the people. Um, and so that was
the beginning. I got officer of the year for that situation,
and that early in my career was the beginning of
(22:02):
really learning the truth of what actually the scriptures say
that we serve the God who speaks. He's the God
who communicates to his creation. He always has. He leads.
He guides us through his word, through his spirit, through people,
through circumstances. And so I just I just decided, okay,
I'm going to explore this as deeply as I can,
(22:26):
not only not only in my career, of course, but
also just in my regular life with my kids and
my wife. And what does it look like to really
hear from God? Especially when we're afraid, especially when we're
dealing with fearful situations.
S2 (22:43):
And we've just got a couple of minutes before our break.
But just friends for you to know. Just to catch
you up. It got to the point where God was
speaking to Jamie, leading him to help solve so many
cases that he was called in by the government. And
they asked him, how is it that you're solving all
these cases? And he was able to say, I pray
and God speaks. And you also got very skilled in
(23:03):
navigating these cases. And on the other side of the break,
we'll talk about how you went to the Middle East
and you, you, you know, were face to face with
Muslims who said they wanted to kill you. And in
their face they didn't know you knew Arabic, and you
were able to point them to Jesus and teach them
about their identity. And so with just about a minute
and a half left, just talk about this, if you would, Jamie,
about how connected fear is with our false identity, how
(23:27):
often fear keeps us in our false identity.
S4 (23:32):
Well, we can just say, generally speaking, fear shuts down creativity.
Fear shuts down the human ability to receive new information,
new ideas, new ways of thinking. And so, um, if
that's the case, if you're if you're if your fear
is the decision maker in your life is self protection
or self promotion becomes sort of the way you live
(23:54):
your life, you're you're incapable of receiving from God. And
so you, you know, it's like the Israelites walk all
the way across the wilderness and come up to the land,
and the Lord's like, let's go. And they're like, we
they can't receive the land because they are afraid. And
they see themselves as grasshoppers in their own eyes. And
they and they actually will walk away from something that
(24:17):
God is inviting them into. That's the danger of fear
in our lives that will actually walk away from something
where the Lord is saying, follow me into this. And
we're saying, we can't. We're we're grasshoppers in our own eyes.
S2 (24:30):
So when you think about friend listening today, what's your imprinted,
God given identity might be? And I want you to
think about that and even a creative way, like based
on some of the things I've learned from Jamie this
last year for Christmas, for a bunch of gifts for
people that are very dear to me. I got them
identity bracelets. So one of my sisters, I got heart
healer because she ministers to the heart so so much.
(24:51):
Another one is faith initiator because she initiates faith in
the hearts of people. So if you were just to
just guess at one of the things God has called
you to, how would you say your identity plays out? (877)Â 548-3675.
And otherwise, maybe you have a question about how to
break free from fear so that you can walk in
(25:11):
your true identity. We've got handfuls of copies of Jamie's book,
Living Fearless Exchanging the lies for the Liberating Truth of God. Eight. Seven. Seven.
I'm sorry. There it is. (877)Â 548-3675. If you got a
question for Jamie, give us a call. But otherwise, if
you know your identity, if you have a sense, like
one of mine I think is warrior healer, I want
(25:32):
to help people. I want to fight for people to
get healed and be whole so they can go on
and do everything God has for them to do. How
about you? Why don't you give us a call? 48. Three. Six. Seven. Five.
We'll be back in a minute. This is equipped with
(26:20):
Chris Brooks coming to you from the studios of Moody Radio.
I'm Suzy Larsen, filling in for Chris today, tomorrow and Thursday.
I'm talking with Jamie Winship about living fearlessly, about truly
embracing who you are because of who Jesus is. What
would you do? How would you live if you weren't
afraid of anything? What is your sense in your moments
when you know you're loved by God? What's your sense
(26:41):
of your God given identity? Like, what are you called
to do if you're not afraid? When you're not in
your head, when you're not in yourself? Do you tend
towards helping people heal, helping people be mobilized in their calling? (877)Â 548-3675.
Got a handful of copies of Jamie's book to give away.
Quick note though, if you've been blessed by this show,
we'd love to have you partner with us. Do you
(27:02):
appreciate the kind of programming you hear on Chris's show equipped?
Do you learn from the interaction with Christian leaders who
equip you to grow spiritually, to think critically, to live
compassionately in today's changing culture? Maybe you've been listening for
a long time, but you've not become a partner yet.
Would you prayerfully consider that when you give monthly, you
can join an elite team that supports equipped with their
(27:22):
gifts and prayers? And we'll have some pretty special perks
for you too. You'll get a bi weekly video message
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and other exclusive access to resources that are designed just
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or 144. Visit us online otherwise@radio.org. A special welcome to
(27:44):
our newest equipper, Vicky in Michigan. Welcome to the team.
So what about you? We'd love for you to join us!
Visit us online at equipped radio.org or call 888644 4144. Again,
I'm talking today with my friend Jamie Winship about living
fearlessly and truly embracing who we are because of who
Jesus is. And Jamie, we've got a friend calling today
(28:04):
who wants to know how to break free from fear.
And having talked with you for so long over the
last several years, it seems like of all the fears
that get in the way of us being ourselves, it's
fear of man. Often it might be fear of safety,
fear of not having enough. But I'd say more often
than not, from what I see, it's fear of not
being enough. So, Chris, welcome to the show. You're on
the air with Jamie Winship.
S5 (28:25):
Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.
S2 (28:28):
What's your question for Jamie today?
S5 (28:32):
Well, my question is. So I believe I'm gifted in speaking.
I'm gifted in, um, being able to speak life into
others and things of that nature. I do have a
business based on that, and there's a lot of times
that I struggle with fear of rejection. I struggle with
fear of what people might think and their perspective about
(28:52):
what I'm doing. I'm focused on fear of not getting
engagement on social media and being ridiculed, ridiculed and things
like that. And I believe that's holding me back from
what God truly has for me. And I just want
to know, how can I get through that?
S2 (29:08):
Love that question, Jamie. What do you say to Chris?
S4 (29:11):
Yeah. Thanks, Chris. That's a that's such a great question.
And it's it's such a common fear. So let me
just tell you something about fear in general that I
think will really help you is so in human beings.
Human beings are only born with two built in fears.
So we only have two innate fears. It's the fear
of falling and the fear of loud noises. So infants
(29:33):
have those two fears. All other fear is learned. Okay,
that's really important. So that when so when we truth
tell or confess about our fear what as you're doing
really well and that's a beautiful first step is like,
here's what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of rejection. I'm
afraid of, um, being made fun of which is a
(29:56):
similar fear. That fear is learned. Okay. So that means
somewhere earlier in your life, you you attempted to speak
or you were speaking in a situation could have been
you and one other person, but in that situation you
were rejected, made fun of whether it was a real
(30:18):
rejection or a real mockery. It doesn't matter. It's perceived
by you as that. And in those situations we learn
to fear. Okay, I spoke, I got rejected. So you're
basically believing something about the world. You're saying, okay, when
I speak, I'm going to get rejected. I'm going to
be made fun of. And so then that kind of
(30:40):
gets is if we agree with that, it's not true.
But if we agree with it, it gets sealed in
as true. And so then your brain from that point on,
anytime you go into a similar situation, your amygdala will
remind you, hey, the last time you did this, you
got rejected and made fun of and it will shut
you down. That's what you're that's what your brain is
(31:01):
made to do. It's to protect you. However, this the
importance is, is to take those thoughts captive. This is
what Corinthians is talking about. Don't don't let your mind
run you. It's like if you if you and I
were together, I would say, okay, let's talk about the
very first time you felt rejected. And as Susie's been saying,
that becomes an identity. I am the rejected one. I
(31:24):
am the one who gets made fun of, and therefore
I can't speak publicly. That identity your being informs your
doing so what you want to do. And this is
the value of prayer and intercession with God is to say, Lord,
when was the first time I believed the lie that
I'm inadequate to speak, or I'm not good enough to
(31:46):
do what you've invited me into? Remind me of that time,
and then, Lord, walk me through what was false about it.
Give the lie to the Lord and say, what did
you say about that day? What did Jesus, you are
with me on that day? What do you say about
me on that day? And let the Lord speak truth
into you. Because when we know and experience truth, the
(32:07):
truth sets us free. So it's overcoming that identity, really,
that false identity that will enable you to to be
more courageous in stepping out when you have the opportunity
to speak. I hope that makes sense to you.
S2 (32:21):
It's beautiful. Chris, thank you for that call. Stay on
the line. I want to get you a copy of
Jamie's book. You will love it. I think it's very timely.
I tend to think that when we start to feel
restless about these fears and we're noticing them, it's because
God has a next place of promise for you. So
it's time to deal. It's time to face it and
see what God will do. As he lifts that out
of you, and you start believing the amazing truth about you,
that you bear his image and you've got an identity
(32:44):
imprinted on you that contributes to the kingdom. And if
you don't mind, I would love for you, Jamie, to tell.
I call it your Jason Bourne story. I love this
story so much. And, uh, go ahead and set that
one up. I see more calls coming in and we'll
get to as many as we can. But you've got
to hear the story. Someone else called in, asked about
how you introduced Jesus to your Muslim friends. And this
(33:04):
sort of ties into that a little bit. Talk about
your Jason Bourne story.
S4 (33:08):
Okay, I think there's a few with him in it,
but I'll tell the one I think you mean. So
this is this is me speaking at an event. I
was speaking at an event in, um, in my vocation,
you know, in international relations. And this person comes up
to me and challenges me on what I was saying
about God speaking and that kind of thing. And, um,
you know, wanted to know if I was the real deal.
(33:28):
That was the question. Are you the real deal? Which
which is, can it produce fear in a person? Yeah.
If you get your identity from what people think about you.
And so I said, well, I can tell you I
think I'm the real deal, but that would mean I'm
not the real deal. So why don't you come with
me and see for yourself what God can do in
these situations, especially with, um, militant Islamic situation. So we
(33:50):
went together, uh, he and I and another guy, um,
overseas into this very difficult tribal situation where there was
a lot of terrorist activity and recruitment going on. And
we went in to stay among this group, um, that
you had to go in at night. It was in
the middle of the Sahara Desert, and you had to
go in at night. So we go in at night.
(34:10):
And I told the two guys with me because I'd
been there before, you know, when we get up tomorrow,
they're going to set a place for us to eat
in another big tent, and it's on the floor. That's
how they eat. But they won't come in with us
because that's their custom to let the guest eat in privacy.
So we go in there, there's three of us. We
sit down at this table that's set up on the
(34:30):
ground and, uh, and there's four places set. And my
friend who's who we call, we'll call Jason Bourne, because
that's who he is. That's his very much like the
character in the movie. In every way that you can imagine.
He's he says, why are there? Who's the other person coming?
And I said, I don't know. I've never seen him
set an extra place before. And he got really enamored
(34:51):
with this because every time we were sent to a
room to eat, there was four places for three of us. Um,
the context that we're in was we were meeting with
these imams, these tribal leaders, and one of them in
particular was super hostile towards us, um, you know, very threatening.
And in this situation, we're in there alone. We're unarmed. Really?
(35:12):
Nobody knows where where we are or.
S6 (35:14):
And he won't find us. Yeah, exactly.
S4 (35:17):
And they they definitely wanted us dead. One this one person. Um,
what was weird was the restraint of the other, the
other leaders in there who were of the same group.
And so we were with them. We had been there
several days and one evening we were sitting with these leaders.
It's still pretty tense, but my friend Jason Bourne wants
to know about. He's consumed with knowing about this extra
(35:39):
place setting. And and so he he asked the leader,
all of a sudden he can speak the language of
the group. I didn't know he could speak that language,
but I don't know half the language as this guy
can speak. And he says, why do you set four
places when there's three of us in the room and
the the leader, the Muslim leader? He says, well, for
the for the four of you, there's four of you.
(36:02):
And he Jason Bourne looks at me and he's like,
what is he talking about? And I knew, because I've
seen this happen before. I had a feeling what they
were saying. And so Jason Bourne says, what do you
what do you mean? There's four of us, like, what
are you talking about? And they said, for your security guys.
And that your security guy, the one that's always standing
guard while you guys are at sleep. He's outside right now.
(36:24):
He's outside the tent right now. Your security guy. And
and Jason Bourne says, security guy, what does he look like?
And they said, well, he's bigger than you guys, but
we wanted to ask you a question about him. Why
does he have he has a sword. He's carrying a
sword as a weapon like that's. We'd have never seen
a security guy with a sword like that. And then
(36:45):
then I then I definitely knew what it was. And
then the lead Muslim guy says to Jason Bourne, you
guys can't see him, can you? You can't see your
security guy, can you? And then they start, they switch
to using the word Malacca, which which means angel. And
they said, oh my gosh, you your security guy is
(37:06):
an angel. And their fear of that security guy was
what kept us from being, I don't know, murdered or
something in the night. Wow. So what was super interesting
about that was when so they. So then it was
this big thing that we have. An angel of the
Lord is our security guy. And clearly God has sent us. We're.
God is. We're part of God's team. And when we
(37:28):
were alone back into the tent that night. This is
the guy that asked me, Jason Bourne's the one that said,
are you the real deal? He said to me, he
said to me, how do you how many, how many
beings do you think are in this darkness with us
right now? And I said, I don't know. He said, Mike,
I want to ask you a question. I'm trying to
ask God a question, but I can't hear from him.
(37:49):
And this was the whole point of everything. He the
whole reason he came with me and all that was.
He was afraid. He can't hear from God. That was
his whole fear. But he wanted to wait till he
knew that I that God was real before he would
ask me this question. So while the angel is convincing
the Muslims of God's reality, he's also convincing us of
God's reality.
S2 (38:09):
This unbelieving Jason Bourne we have to break here. But
so this guy was hearing you hear talk about hearing
from God, and he had questions on his own. So
he thought, and you had the guts to say, I
don't know if I'm the real deal. How about you
come with me and find out when we come back?
You're going to hear the rest of that story. Then
we'll grab more calls. Because this is such an important
conversation today. Because how would you live if you weren't
(38:32):
afraid of anything? How would you live if you knew
that you're the object of God's affection and he's already
decided about you? You can trust him. Jamie Winship's my guest,
and we will be back in just a moment. Here's
that number. One more time. (877)Â 548-3675. We'll be back in
a minute.
S1 (39:13):
We live in a culture whose needs and obstacles to
faith are constantly shifting. Sean McDowell's book apologetics for an
Ever Changing Culture, addresses many current issues and will help
you share and defend the gospel with relevant answers. It's
our thank you gift for supporting equipped this month. We'll
send you a copy with your gift of any amount
(39:35):
to equipped. Just call (888)Â 644-4144 or visit equipped radio.org. That's
(888)Â 644-4144 or online@radio.org.
S2 (39:53):
This is equipped with Chris Brooks coming to you from
the studios of Moody Radio. I'm Susie Larson filling in
for Chris today, tomorrow and Thursday. Talking to my friend
Jamie Winship about living fearlessly, truly embracing who we are
because of who Jesus is, his book, Living Fearlessly. I
see a few calls. We're going to try to squeeze
you in before the end of the show. Before the break, Jamie,
you were talking about how the government sent you to
(40:14):
the Middle East as a as a peacekeeper to really
get into the middle of these conflicts and bring peace.
And you had freedom to somehow, some way, help people
hear from God in this situation. You were teaching on
the US side and a Jason Bourne type figure who
had to have special clearance to travel because he was
so equipped in so many ways. I wanted to know,
are you the real deal? You brought him with you
(40:36):
and you guys, I think were out in the desert,
but you're in a tent. You've got some Muslims saying,
let's kill them now. And you come to find out
that they had set an extra spot for dinner because
they saw someone standing outside your tent guarding. And it
was it turned out to be an angel because you
did not have security detail. You're back at the tent
with your Jason Bourne friend who had wanted to know.
(40:56):
Can you hear from God? Take us to that point
of the story. Just got a few minutes left and
I want to grab a couple of calls as well.
S4 (41:02):
Yeah. So he. Yeah. So he, he he's the one
that's become convinced. Not that maybe that I'm the real deal,
but that God's the real deal. And so he said,
I've been trying to hear from God and I can't
hear from God, and I don't know why. And I said,
what are you asking him? And he said, I want
to know why we can't have kids. And that was
the deep question of his heart that he really wanted
(41:24):
to get to. Um, and so I said, well, God
is not famous for answering why questions, but he'll always
tell you what he wants you to know about something.
So ask him, what does he want you to know
about having kids? And so he prayed that prayer. And
then he just he just said to me, okay, I'm in.
Because like, suddenly there was this receptivity in him. Um,
(41:45):
and then, um, and then the Lord talked to him
about kids and, um, and why that was an issue.
And he went home and shared it with his wife.
And today they have four kids. And it was a
beautiful just showing you how God just wants to walk
us in. And it's our fear that that prevents us
from receiving or we need to, you know, we need
(42:06):
to have things proven to us.
S2 (42:07):
So there's so much more to that story. Friends, I
wish we had time. But one of the identity imprinted
identities that Jamie has is an untier of knots. He
helps people get to the root of why you're locked up,
why you're afraid. And we've got a friend calling in
from Wheaton, Illinois, Darlene, and she said, I don't see
myself as fearful, but recently I've had things happen that
show me I actually am fearful. I'm actually shut down.
(42:30):
This interview is timely. Will you pray for me? Darlene,
it's so great to have you on the air. And
I've got Jamie Winship on, and we would love to
pray for you. Anything you want to add to your
question or comment? Darlene, before we pray.
S7 (42:41):
I just want to thank you for being on today, Jamie,
because through reading and other people suggesting that there might
be fear in my life, um, I've started to think
that maybe that's the reason for a real sad heaviness
that I've had for the last three months. And listening
to you today, um, has really confirmed that it is fear.
(43:06):
I've never seen myself as fearful, but, um, these circumstances
I'm dealing with have been there for years, and so
for them to suddenly become so sad and heavy the
last three months. I believe it's fear and I thank
you for sharing.
S2 (43:24):
Bless you. Anything you want to say before we pray
for her? Jamie.
S4 (43:27):
Yeah. Darlene. So first of all, let me just encourage
you that negative emotion is an invitation to transformation. It's
not it. It's not bad. God gave us the capacity
to feel negative emotion. It's like him calling you on
the phone saying, let me talk to you. So confession
is going to the Lord and saying telling him the
(43:48):
truth about the way you feel, what you truly believe,
and then the Lord leading you into repentance, which is
a new way of thinking about him, yourself and others.
So I feel your emotion, but I'm excited for what
God is inviting you into. So I just want you
to I want to encourage you with that.
S2 (44:07):
And Darlene, you're going to get a copy of Jamie's book.
So hang on the line after get your information. So
this book, I think, will be a great catalyst to
you walking free. I echo what he said. I believe
so strongly that this is an invitation, not a condemnation,
an invitation to something new. And so, Lord, we pray
for our dear sister. I thank you that you love
her with an everlasting love, that this is not a
surprise to you and you're not in a hurry. God,
(44:30):
you move us at the pace of grace. And so
I pray that you'd tilt her chin upward. Give her
eyes to see her next place of promise. Show her
what it would look like to break free from that
kind of fear. To not let the enemy have the
last say in her story. So that she could live
as one who's loved and spoken for. Give her a
(44:50):
vision for what freedom might look like. In Jesus name. Amen. Darlene,
thank you for your call today. We just have about
a minute left, and I want to read a couple
of quick excerpts and just give you some final thoughts here.
The journey in discovering your true identity in the Kingdom
of God is an eternal journey. There's no end to
the depths of who God made you to be. Just
(45:10):
got about a minute left, but talk about that. It's
not even a once and done because we are people
in process, and healing is never linear. It's just, you know,
it's from one glory to the next. Speak to that
if you would.
S4 (45:23):
Yeah, absolutely. It's just like growing, you know, as a kid,
you grow up and you discover things about yourself and
things that you're good at and things that you have
to work harder at. But the beauty of the relationship with,
with the Lord is, is especially the Lord, the one,
the God who communicates to us. He's not an idol.
He's he's alive and he loves us. And so to
(45:44):
be continually asking God and not being afraid to say
to God, God, how do you see me? Who do
you say that I am? What do you think about me?
We're afraid to ask these questions because of our own
view of ourselves or the world's view of us. We
don't want to go by that. We want to go
by what? The Lord, the one who loves you above
all else, who made you. We want to know what
(46:05):
the Lord says about us. So I just I encourage
people never be afraid to say, Lord, how do you
see me right now? I'm afraid I feel insecure. I insecure.
I feel like I'm not enough. What do you say?
How do you see me? And. And let him love
you with his everlasting love.
S6 (46:21):
And be encouraged.
S4 (46:22):
By.
S6 (46:23):
It.
S2 (46:23):
Amen. Let him love you with his everlasting love. I
dare you to ask God, where am I not trusting you?
Where am I believing a lie? Jamie, thanks for joining
us today. Fantastic conversation. Appreciate you so much.
S6 (46:35):
Thanks for having me.
S2 (46:36):
Oh, and I hope you found some encouragement here today.
If you need more information about our guests and resources,
hop on online at Radio.com. Join us tomorrow at the
same time as I talk with author and pastor Alan Wright.
We talk about the power of shame. So grateful to
join you today. I'm Suzy Larsen and from all of
us at equipped. Thanks for listening today. Equipped is a
production of Moody Radio, a ministry of the Moody Bible Institute.
(46:59):
We love you. We're praying for you. And we'll meet
you back here next time.
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