Apologetics for an Ever-Changing Culture with Sean McDowell

Sean McDowell joins Karl Clauson to help us navigate today’s tough questions while staying true to God’s Word. Sean shows us how to connect biblical truth to modern issues—from artificial intelligence to gender identity and more! Bring your questions and learn to share your faith with confidence and compassion!

This month's featured resource: Apologetics for an Ever-Changing Culture

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:15):
Please enjoy this encore edition of equip with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equip
with Chris Brooks. I'm so thrilled that you've joined us today.
Do me a favor strap on your seat belt as
we navigate through the contours of culture, as always with
the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before we
do that, let me remind you, this is the day

(00:38):
that the Lord has made. He is giving it as
a gift so that you and I can rejoice and
be glad in it. So let's do just that. Let's
follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in
the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Today I
want you to help me. Welcome to the hot seat,
Karl Clawson. Karl is a man of God who has
served as a pastor, author, and radio host. He's the

(01:01):
co-host of Karl and Crew in the morning, and is
a pastor of Vision and Leadership at 180 church. Karl's
passion is to see men and women flourish in their
walk with Christ, and believing God that the greater things
are yet to come. Carl, thanks for hosting this edition
of equip.

S2 (01:20):
Yeah, big thanks to Chris. We love him a lot.
I want to give you a quick heads up. All
of you that are tuned in here dialled in because
you really want to be equipped for every good work.
Chris is in a battle big time. His daughter is
going through some pretty significant medical stuff right now. And
all I'm going to say is this we got a

(01:41):
little update and there's ups and there's downs and there's
a little dip. But Chris is filled with hope and
faith that the tomb is empty. Our God is alive,
and he's changing lives today, guys. And by the way,
I don't know where you're at with regard to your theology,
but our God is healing still. Our God is healing.

(02:04):
And so, father, we lift up Zoe right now, in
the name of Jesus. Would you take this girl? Would
you grab her up? We're leaning into you. God, we're
asking you to do this. We're. And we're were praying
with joy in our heart because we've seen you move
mountains and you can do it again. This is this
is something you see, you know it. And we're asking

(02:25):
you as your children to heal Zoe and to give
relief to Chris and his bride and family. Lord, meet him.
Hug him right now where they are. In the name
of Jesus, we pray it. Amen. Well, we're in for
a great ride today. This is Impact Day and you
might say, well, Impact day. What do you mean? This

(02:46):
is that time in the month when we feature this
great resource. And for any gift of any amount, we're
going to send you a copy of this incredible book,
apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture. And I've got the
author with me right now, doctor Sean McDowell. Sean McDowell.
How are you doing, my man?

S3 (03:06):
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Carl.

S2 (03:09):
Apologetics. What a funny word. I thought, you know, Look.
Bible college, Seminary. I did the whole thing. Apologetics. Great word.
But my goodness, it sounds like cryogenics. It's like we're
freezing Bibles and bringing them back to life down the road.
And that's the opposite of what we want to do here, right, Sean?

S3 (03:27):
Oh, that's exactly right. I don't want the word to
scare people off. Sometimes I'm tempted to ditch it, but
it has such a history in the church. Yeah, I mean,
some some of the first church fathers were called apologists.
So there's really a historical and biblical root. And of course,
it comes from first Peter 315 which says, Sanctify Christ
as Lord in your heart. Always be ready with an

(03:50):
answer for the hope within. Give it with gentleness and respect.
And the word translated reason or answer in Greek is apologia.
So apologetics is offering a reason or the hope you
know a reason or a basis for the hope we
have that God exists. Jesus is God. He died on
the cross for our sins, etc..

S4 (04:09):
I think the.

S2 (04:10):
Front line apologetic is your story, wouldn't you say? Sean,
I'm not wanting to let us off the hook from
knowing the Word of God and having an answer, but
the biggest answer for the hope within us is a
story that God's given us. What do you say?

S3 (04:24):
Well, I think it's both. Personally, I think stories are powerful.
And you're right, because we see, like in John nine, the,
you know, the blind man's like, here's what I know.
I was blind, but now I see. So one of
the most powerful apologetics is just our personal story of
coming to faith and the transformation in our lives. And

(04:45):
we see Christians doing that throughout history. But we also see,
like at Pentecost in Acts chapter two, the apostles are
sharing their stories, but they're pointing towards, hey, this guy
Jesus died and he was buried and he rose on
the third day. Hey, this guy Jesus fulfilled prophecy. He's God.
And this was done in public. So I think stories

(05:07):
are such a key part. We need to share our
testimony because they're powerful. Yeah. I think there's also such
a key to defending and showing that it's true, especially
today when everybody has a story of something. That's what
every commercial is. It's a testimony of how this product
changed my life. We got to also remind people it's
true and here's how we know it.

S2 (05:27):
Yeah. Love that. What a great. That's a lethal combination.
It really is. Doctor Sean McDowell is my guest, associate
professor of Christian apologetics at Biola University. Best selling author, editor,
co-author of more than 20 books, speaks internationally, has a podcast,
Think Biblically. He's a popular YouTuber as well, and influencer

(05:49):
for the glory of God and the good of mankind.
And it's great to have you here, Sean. It really is.
If you got a question for Sean McDowell today, I
want to invite you in. Give us a phone call 36. 75.

(06:10):
You might have a curveball for Doctor Sean McDowell. He
can handle it. Eight. Seven. Seven five. Four. Eight. 36. 75.
Your baseball fan, man.

S3 (06:20):
You know what? I'd be lying if I said I
was a huge fan. I'm a basketball fan. Oh, volleyball.
But when it gets to the playoffs, if the Red
Sox are good since my mom's from Boston, I will
watch every time.

S2 (06:30):
How about the Lakers picking up that trade from Dallas?

S3 (06:34):
Oh my goodness. Colossal fail by Dallas and the best
trade in favor of the Lakers arguably ever.

S2 (06:42):
But arguably ever. All right we're going to get into
it here. This this is a phenomenal discussion. Apologetics giving
reason for the hope that is within you. Some of
you kind of seize up when it comes to this.
It's like, well, apologetics. We need someone that's got a
whole lot more skill sets than me or higher pay

(07:03):
grade than my own. You might have a question about this.
Give us a call. Light them up, guys. Eight. 877548 3675.
I'll say it slowly. 877548 3675. I think that's one
of the kickers, Sean, is that we look at apologetics
and because the word seems like a, you know, 20

(07:25):
buck word, it's like, mhm. Boy, we better hire someone.
Get them in here. Give us a vision for how low,
how low hanging that fruit is for people.

S3 (07:39):
I think you're right about that. And some of us
have a bad experience with apologetics. We've seen somebody called
an apologist who's just arguing and maybe arrogant and not gracious,
and it naturally makes us cringe. And yet, really, apologetics
is not a spiritual gift that we see listed alongside

(07:59):
other spiritual gifts and say, Paul or Peter or elsewhere
in the New Testament. It's something we're all called to do.
And in fact, OS Guinness in his book Fools Talk,
he says we're really all apologists today anyways, in our
world of social media. We're all advancing something, even if

(08:20):
it's just our own brands. We live in an age
where it's like you, you advance ideas, you know, engage
the public conversation. And he's like, what would help if
we just really think about how do we advance the
kingdom of God? How do we defend challenges that come?
And so it's not just this arid, dry, philosophical, you know, approach. C.S. Lewis,

(08:44):
one of the greatest apologists of all time, told stories.
I mean, the Narnia series is a kind of apologetic
for Christian theology and the Christian story. That's where we
need to just expand what we mean by apologetics and
really creative ways to do it that captures not only
the mind, but captures the heart.

S2 (09:03):
I love it. You know, it's interesting because there are
a lot of current cultural issues that people are facing.
In fact, if you've got one and you want to
ask a question because it's just like, how do I
even answer this? But if you get a question about
a current cultural issue that is challenging to you to
engage with others over while sharing your faith, let's go.

(09:26):
Let's get those questions answered. 87754836758775483675. So a big one is.
And it's wild because it's great when kind of political
leanings and even people from either side of the aisle
politically are championing spiritual values. Like, let's just go back

(09:50):
a brief time when Barack Obama was running for office
and still both parties were championing a marriages between a
man and a woman. Now, you get faced with that today.
And maybe the question is, well, what do you you know,
you got it wrong on marriage. Now look at where
the culture has gone. How do you deal with that

(10:11):
practical an issue, Sean?

S3 (10:15):
Well, that's a great question. I live in California. In 2008,
we had prop eight. I think it was where most
of California's Californians voted to keep marriage as a sex
institution of male and female. And yet, clearly, we've shifted
not only in California, but in the country as a whole.

(10:35):
One of the things I try to do is if
you make marriage, say, non sexed, if you if you're
in favor of what's called same sex marriage, you're saying
gender distinctions are irrelevant to marriage itself. So a man
and a man is equivalent to a woman and a woman.
So a kid doesn't need a mom and a dad.

(10:57):
You mentioned Obama. So I'll use this just as an example.
Not a political one, but a cultural one.

S2 (11:02):
Right.

S3 (11:02):
He was the first president to endorse same sex marriage.
In fact, his hand was forced by something Biden said
as his VP. Interestingly enough, I think it was around
2012 if I if I remember correctly, somewhere around that time.
And what's interesting is if you're in favor of same
sex marriage, again, you're saying marriage is genderless. But when
Obama had a chance to nominate Supreme Court justices, his

(11:27):
first two were female Kagan and Sotomayor. Why? Because, he
said a woman brings a different perspective to the court.
We need balance on the court. So all of a sudden,
when it comes to the institution, the Supreme Court, gender
differences matter. But when it comes to the institution of marriage,

(11:48):
all of a sudden they don't. Well, arguably, gender distinctions
matter more in marriage than they do in the Supreme Court.
At least the same. So he's talking out of both
sides of his mouth, which tells me he really does
know that men and women are different. But for some
ideological or political reason, he favors same sex marriage but

(12:11):
then offers women to the court. So, to answer your question,
I think people in their hearts know that men and
women are different. It reminds me of Romans one like
we push down the the truth, we suppress it. But like,
think about pushing a beach ball down. When you push
it down, it pops back up. Yeah. So he was
in favor of same sex marriage, and he's not the

(12:31):
only one. I'm not trying to pick on him here.
That's not my point. But in his heart, he knows
that men and women are different. That's what I try
to do on issues like this. We live in God's world.
People are made in God's image. I want to appeal
what they know to be true and draw it out
in conversation as I can.

S2 (12:53):
That's apologetics. You just got a taste of good, compelling,
profound apologetics. You got a cultural issue, something that you're
up against, and you're feeling like I'm having a conversation
with my adult kid. They were raised in church. I
don't know what to do with this. Let's go all swim.
Everybody in the pool. Eight. Seven. Seven. Five. Four. Eight. Three. 3675 877548 33675.

(13:19):
Coming up, we're going to take your phone calls. We're
going to jump right on it. 877548 3675. And coming
up any gift of any amount. And boy do we
need it. We want to bolster Chris Brooks's show here today.
And we're going to do it in a powerful way.
You're going to get a copy of Sean McDowell's book,

(13:40):
apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture. This is a sweet opportunity.
We got 2700 bucks to go. That's it for this month.
I want to knock that out and go beyond today.
Would you be part of this effort? I'll tell you
how you can be part of this. Coming up straight ahead,
I'm Carl Claussen, sitting in the host seat for our

(14:00):
good friend Chris Brooks. My guest today, Doctor Sean McDowell.
We're talking apologetics, man. We just got a taste of
a beauty right there. There's more where that came from.

S1 (14:20):
Christianity speaks to every aspect of life, but sometimes we
struggle to connect God's unchanging truth to our changing world.
Apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture by Sean McDowell equips
you with the practical tools for meaningful conversation about faith.
With chapters from 26 leading Christian thinkers, including our own

(14:40):
Chris Brooks. It's our impact gift this month to you.
When you support the Ministry of Equipped, call [phone] or
visit equipped radio.org. Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's
program is pre-recorded while we won't be taking calls, we
do want to connect with you on social media.

S2 (15:02):
Carl Claussen here sitting in for good friend Chris Brooks.
Love this brother. Keep his family in prayer, particularly Zoe.
She is battling its cancer, man. She's battling it. And
there's ups and there's downs. So be in prayer. Tomb
is empty. Our God is alive and he's still healing today.
Don't forget it. You got a question about cultural challenges

(15:26):
that you're up against. They're everywhere, especially with this exodus
of adult kids that have been raised in church. A
lot of them just drifting away. My bride and I
have 36 adult kids that we're praying for that were
raised by imperfect but phenomenal parents. And it's heartbreak. And
with that comes a lot of debate, a lot of issues,

(15:48):
a lot of cultural issues. Bring your questions to the
table for Doctor Sean McDowell. 877548 3675. 877548 3675. Now,
huge challenge for you today. Our goal is to I mean,

(16:11):
knock out a big chunk of what it takes to
keep equipped on for the month of April. And we
have got a banner ad for you. This book, apologetics
for an Ever Changing Culture, is going to be yours
for a gift of any amount. And I'm asking you
to prayerfully consider it's a win win, guys. You you
put some shekels into the plate here and we keep

(16:33):
this radio show cooking. And we'll send you a copy
of this book by Doctor Sean McDowell. Apologetics for an
ever Changing culture. This thing so relevant for where we
live today. I'm asking you to go to the phones
or go online right now and make it happen. I'm
going to even shout out your first name in the
state that you're from here. 888644 4144. That's the number.

(16:57):
I'll give it to you slowly. 888644 4144. Or go
online to equipped, radio equipped radio and we are grateful.
Let's bless. Chris. Big time. I've said this this whole week.
I've been here just one of the one of the

(17:19):
ways we can lighten the load is that he knows
that his work budget for equipped, that we're knocking it
out here in April. Let's go. By the way, Chris
was a contributor in chapter 14 on urban apologetics in
this book by Sean McDowell. Okay. Um, oh my goodness, Sean,

(17:41):
I wish everyone could have been here a few minutes
ago if they weren't, but I'm going to tee up. Well,
you know what? Let me go to the phone lines.
We got a lot of callers coming in here, so
let's go right to the phone lines. Ryan in Illinois,
good to have you with us. What do you say, Ryan?

S5 (17:55):
Hey, uh, so I actually just had a conversation this
morning with a young man that I work with, and
he is, um, he practices, uh, the Muslim faith. And
we were talking about all kinds of things, and he's
wide open to a conversation about it. I even learned
some things I never knew. But one of the comments

(18:16):
that he made was, well, the Quran has never changed
since day one. And for me, um, the history of
the Bible, uh, that he brought up, it really doesn't matter.
The Holy Spirit speaks to me. And I mean, he's
directly to my heart, from from the inside, even even

(18:38):
when I don't have my Bible out. But it's not
an issue for me. But what what what I'm curious
about is, like Jesus's Bible, for example, the Septuagint or, uh,
or a translation thereof. You know, there's there's books that
he preached out of and Rabbi that are no longer there.
And these are things that I've heard scholars talk about.

(18:59):
But how do you. How do you explain that or
talk about that with someone who says, well. My book
is is is still the same as day one?

S2 (19:07):
Yeah. And you guys have changed your book over and
over again. Uh, doctor Sean McDowell, what do you say
to that?

S3 (19:14):
First off, I love that you're having conversations with your
Muslim friend. Fantastic. I was supposed to have coffee today
with a local imam. I had to reschedule, but in
a couple of weeks, we're getting together to talk about
these kinds of things. I would invite you to take
a look by a scholar named Keith Small. He's written
a book called Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts in 2012,

(19:37):
and he takes a very close look at how the
what was originally written down, how it's changed over time,
and how the statement that this Muslim made, which is
commonly made by Muslims is really clearly false, and it's
changed considerably since that time. The other thing I would

(19:58):
point towards is I recently interviewed Allan Schliemann, who works
with Stand to Reason and he's an expert in Islam.
He's written a short book that's cheaper and probably easier
to read. I'd recommend. It's just called An Ambassador's Guide
to Islam, I think is the title of it by
Allan Schliemann. And we had a conversation on YouTube maybe

(20:18):
three months ago, if I had a guess. And the
title was like seven Questions to Ask Your Muslim Friend.
And one of the questions was about how much the
Quran has shifted over time. So if you just search YouTube,
I don't know, go to my channel if it's helpful.
You will see it right there. Get the information. You
can follow up with the sources so you are informed.

(20:40):
But we actually want to invite this kind of conversation.
Now when it comes to the New Testament, what we
have to do is just go back to the earliest
copies that we have. How many copies we have? And
the vast majority of textual scholars are going to agree.
Even non-Christians, that we have a high level of textual

(21:01):
confidence in the New Testament itself. There's a handful of
passages that there's doubt about. For example, the last few
verses of Mark, uh, John 753 through 811, I think
it's first John five seven. So there's a handful of
passages for which there's doubt, but those don't cast doubt

(21:23):
over the reliability of the New Testament as a whole.
They just cast doubt on a few isolated passages where
the textual criticism as a whole puts the Quran in
much more of a precarious situation. So again, textual criticism
in Quran by Keith Small, a little bit of a
deeper book, that YouTube video with Alan Schliemann and his book,

(21:44):
The Ambassador's Guide to Islam would give you a great
place to start and study and really learn some of
this firsthand.

S2 (21:52):
Fantastic question Ryan. Really good. And I applaud you as well.
Way to mix it up in the culture today. People
need love and they need conversation and a cup of coffee.
You know, it's interesting, Sean, respond to this one because
there's a lot of even though the historical record and
the continuity of the Gospels is so profoundly put on evidence,

(22:15):
it's it's amazing to me. We talk about, for instance,
Socratic learning by Socrates, who died in 499, I think,
bc we don't have one written word from Socrates. The
only thing we know about Socrates is from Plato. That's
all we know. The only reason we know about him
is because Plato was his was being mentored by him.

(22:36):
Why is it that Jesus gets such a exorbitantly higher
standard of scrutiny compared to people that we embrace from
history that we have no recorded history of their writing.
Is this just a spiritual war? What's going on here?

S3 (22:54):
That's such an interesting question. I would say a couple things.
One is Jesus makes grand claims and he does grand
things walking on water, healing the blind and lepers, saying
Before Abraham was, I am, which is a divine claim.
So on one sense, I understand why people say, wow,

(23:18):
if somebody really makes the kind of claims that Jesus did,
we're going to have pretty good evidence that this is true. Now,
sometimes people can say things where it's like extraordinary evidence requires,
you know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, where they put
the standard so high that it becomes impossible. I don't
want to go that far, but I understand why people say,

(23:41):
you know, a lot is required here. But second, you know,
it doesn't matter what you conclude in terms of your soul,
for who Socrates or Julius Caesar or Pliny the Younger are,
nothing matters. But Jesus said, the most important question you
can ask is who do you say that I am?
Quite literally, his identity is tied towards whether God is real,

(24:04):
whether there's life after death, whether I'm forgiven for my sins,
and whether Christianity is true. So a lot is at stake.
So I think basically it makes sense that we'd want
good evidence for it, but sometimes people just put the
standards so high that it becomes impossible that they functionally
rule out the investigation before they even look at the facts.

S2 (24:26):
You know, that's a profound statement. His claim to deity
invites deeper scrutiny, and it's fair. Is that fair, Sean?

S3 (24:35):
Yeah, I think I think that's right. There should be
good evidence for the kinds of claims that Jesus makes. Yeah.

S2 (24:42):
Good stuff. His book apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture
is yours for a gift of any amount. This is
really cool. And by the way, I'd love to get
your calls right now. I'm not going to tell you
where to get the book yet. I'll give you those
details coming up, but if you've got a question about culture,
could be about something that you're facing today, in this
world today, we got a culture that is shifting under

(25:05):
our feet, and it's bringing discussion points with family and
friends to the forefront. You want some answers to those questions?
Sean has them for you, not just here on air,
but in this book. Give you details on where to
get the book, but we'd love your phone calls right now.
8775483675877548 3675. Somebody said, I just got my phone. Say

(25:33):
it again. 877548 3675. Let's go. Doctor Sean McDowell with
us today. And again this book apologetics for an ever
changing culture. It can be yours. And I'm going to
tell you how to do it. I got the ultimate
win win thing coming up and I'm going to slam
dunk it. Be in prayer for Chris and his family

(25:55):
still battling health with their daughter, Zoe. We'll be back
here with Doctor Sean McDowell coming up here in just
a moment.

S1 (26:15):
Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded
and we won't be taking your calls.

S2 (26:21):
Welcome aboard. This is equipped with Chris Brooks. I am
not Chris Brooks. I'm his buddy. My name is Carl Claussen,
and it's a joy to be here hosting today. Keep
in prayer. Stay in prayer for Chris's daughter, Zoe. UPS
and downs. It just goes that way, guys. A lot
of ups and downs in this treatment of cancer. And
we're asking you to be in prayer and believing that

(26:43):
God heals. Okay. I want to give you a quick
update here. Doctor Sean McDowell is with me. Uh, phone
calls coming in, taken from you. 877548 3675. What are
you up against with your kids? What are you up against?
In culture, you see the culture shifting and you're like,
how do you even respond to this man? It's like

(27:04):
the moral gage of of our country and our world
is shifting. And it's like, I sound so old fashioned. What?
What's going on? You want to get those questions answered?
Let's go. 877548 3675. Quick shout out here. And let
me be really clear. This book of Doctor Sean McDowell's
apologetics for an ever changing culture I am going to

(27:26):
send to you for a gift of any amount. And
I'm asking you to let's let's go. Let's knock it
out of the park here today. Little baseball metaphor there
for you, Sean. Um, let's let's let's knock it, man.
Let's go guys. And I'm asking you to do this today.
I'm asking you to ask the Lord. What would you

(27:47):
have me give when I grabbed this book? And if
you become a monthly partner, you get all kinds of stuff.
You come on these on these webcasts, web calls, webinars,
whatever they're called. Anyway, time with Chris personally, with him
answering questions and the like along with a copy of
his own book. There's a lot of upside to this,
and you don't give to get, but I want us

(28:08):
to encourage Chris today and say we we knocked out
a chunk of April's goal here. So every gift will
receive the book apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture. This
is a dynamite book and I'll tell you why. This
is unlike a lot of apologetics angles that's dealing with
big macro things that have been true through history. He's
dealing with the here and now as well. So come

(28:31):
and get it. Um, this is how you do this,
and I'm. I'm asking you to flood the zone right now.
Call 644, 4144. 888644 4144 or go online to equipped radio.org.

(28:52):
That's a equipped radio number again. 888644 4144 and from Illinois, Gabriel, Lori,
Joseph and Karen already came in. Way to go. My goodness. Uh,
in Florida, Denise, Adina, Craig and Charles. Wow. Susan, Terry

(29:14):
and Karen in Indiana. Jane in Las Cruces, New Mexico,
and you guys are lighting it up. This is tremendous. Okay, Sean, um,
we're getting going to have calls coming in here. 877548 3675.
Let me take a little bit of an older one
and then move it to the present with regard to
same sex relationships. I'm going to role play with you, Sean.

(29:38):
What do you mean? I mean, you're going to deny
two people that all they've ever known is same sex attraction.
You're going to deny them love. How dare you? Who
are you? Are you just some angry Christian? What do
you say, Sean?

S3 (29:55):
I would say, do you think love is what makes
something necessarily. Do you think love is what is a
justified basis for people to get married? Love? You said
you've only known same sex attraction from the beginning and
that you love each other. And so therefore, you should

(30:16):
get married. And I'm just curious because if you say
it is, then I suspect there's a whole lot of
other kinds of what you call loving relationships that you
might not want to have married. So flesh that out
for me.

S2 (30:32):
Yeah. So that that's where you get into a pickle
right away. I mean, is it it's what are the boundaries?
What are the parameters? Sean? Is that what you're driving at?

S3 (30:45):
So the question at the root of marriage or same
sex marriage is what is marriage? What is it? We
have to answer that question first. Is it an institution
just for two people? And again, if you take male
and female out of it, I'm not sure why it
has to be two. Why not three? Why not five?

(31:07):
Why not 50? Like why? Why is love? Is it
necessary for marriage? Is it sufficient? Because I can think
of people who love each other that aren't married. And
I can think of people who are legally married that
technically say we've fallen out of love. So I'm just
not sure why it's relevant that a couple says they've
loved each other, therefore they should be able to get married.

(31:30):
Until we understand and define first what marriage is.

S2 (31:35):
How do you begin a discussion like that? Because this
thing gets so emotionally heated. Love is such a, um,
it's a it's, by the way, something God created us
to need and to thrive in. And yet it's more
than a feeling. So how do you begin to peel
that back without peeling off that relationship?

S3 (31:57):
Well, because I knew you were kind of role playing
with me, I decided to go for the issue here
rather than the backstory. If someone said that to me
in person, I probably would respond and say, you sound
pretty passionate about this. You've thought about it a lot.
Will you tell me more of your backstory just so
I can understand who you are and how you think

(32:21):
about relationships? I just want to understand. And that lowers
the temperature. It invites compassion and just sets up for
a conversation much more than debating with somebody. So if
I'm on like my YouTube channel, if I'm on stage,
sometimes I'm supposed to have a dialogue and a debate
with people, but in person I'm much more likely to

(32:44):
just say, you know what? You sound like there's hurt there.
It sounds like there's anger, like, help me understand you.
And the backstory first lowers the temperature, invites conversation, and
just shows that Christians aren't threatened by other ideas. And
we're we're curious and we're open to hearing how other
people see the world and want to build relationships with them.

(33:05):
By the way, you've been mentioning the book apologetics for
an Ever Changing Culture. One of my favorite chapters in
the book is by my father, Josh McDowell, and it's
called It's Chapter three, a fresh, apologetic relationships that transform.
And really, our worldviews are shaped by relationships with people.
So this person who's had same sex attraction presumably is

(33:29):
not a Christian. The way you set it up, in
many ways, I want to I want to care for
that person. I want to love that person. Yeah, I
want to be in a relationship with that person and
treat them as someone made in the image of God,
which I think we can do without when it's all
said and done. Changing what marriage really is.

S2 (33:45):
Yeah. Good word. Sean McDowell is my guest right now.
The name of the book is apologetics for an ever
Changing Culture. It's our impact. Gift of the month. Any
gift of any amount, we're going to send it to you,
asking you to ask the Spirit of God. What would
you give today to help underwrite keeping equipped cooking here?

(34:08):
I'm going to give you the number 888644 4144. Gift
of any amount. You become a monthly partner, you become
an equipper. And there's a lot more where that came from.
A lot of great connection time with Chris and his
own book. 888644 4144 or go online to equipped radio.org.

(34:30):
We're really spiking it today. Marie in Illinois. What's your question, Marie?

S6 (34:37):
Yes. Hi. Just my question is I work with a
coworker who's a transgender. Um, I also found out that
he or she is a Satanist. Um, I've tried to
plant a seed. Um, was nothing to do with it.
I wouldn't even talk to me or look at me
in the eyes. I don't know how to deal with that.

(34:59):
And I don't know if you can help me out.

S2 (35:01):
Yeah, that's a that's a good word, Marie. Thank you
for that question. This is this is growing a little
bit of this is a lemming effect. Um, especially with
young kids, Sean. We'll get into that in a moment.
But take this as it is. Coworker transition from looks
like female to male. Avoiding eye contact. What's going on

(35:21):
there and how can we be a bridge?

S3 (35:25):
First off, I'm sure you're doing this, but being in
a state of prayer for this individual. I mean, if
their satanic backgrounds and the person identifies as transgender. I mean,
needless to say, there's some deeper issues at play. There's
spiritual warfare going on. So pray for this person. Second,
consider talking with somebody else at work, not gossiping. There's

(35:47):
a line that's there, but just saying, do you see
what I see? Do you feel like they treat me?
This individual treats me this way like somebody with wisdom
that's not going to talk further. And again, gossip, but
just give another perspective on it. Uh, third, you know,
you might think about just what would it look like
to show a kind act of love to this individual?

(36:10):
I remember describing one lady who was this was years ago,
who was a lesbian, and a coworker of hers got
off the freeway, got a special copy for her, gave
to her, and said, hey, I was on the way
to work, thought of you, got you this coffee. And like,
that was jarring to her to think, wait a minute,
this person cared that much, and it opened up the

(36:30):
conversation for her to come to faith. So and then
when it's all said and done, if this person does
not want to be open and treat you differently, you
can't change that. Remember Jesus, let the rich young ruler
walk away. So what does it mean to love somebody
who doesn't love back? That's a real Christian challenge that
we're called to face. Yeah.

S2 (36:52):
Thank you. Marie. Great question. Coming up here. We'll take
more of your calls. What a day. This is great. Sean,
I gotta tell you, God is using you in a
big way. Uh, this is beautiful. Coming up, we're going
to tackle more questions if you've got them for Doctor
Sean McDowell, give us a call right now. 877548 3675

(37:16):
877548 3675. Also, if you haven't gotten a copy of
this book, I've got a rundown here of the contributors
to this thing that Sean's worked with. Amazing Minds cultural
issues for today, I'm going to tell you how to
get it. We're going to cheer for a bunch of
folks who already have. It's a really cool opportunity. It's

(37:37):
the impact of the month gift, and we're asking you
to jump in today. More with Doctor Sean McDowell. Coming up,
apologetics a reason for the hope that is within us.
It's with love, kindness, care and belief. Praying that God
can change lives. Hang on.

S1 (38:04):
We live in a culture whose needs and obstacles to
faith are constantly shifting. Sean McDowell's book apologetics for an
Ever Changing Culture, addresses many current issues and will help
you share and defend the gospel with relevant answers. It's
our thank you gift for supporting equipped this month. We'll
send you a copy with your gift of any amount

(38:26):
to equipped. Just call [phone] or visit equipped radio. That's
[phone] or online at radio. Org. Chris Brooks here reminding
you that today's program is pre-recorded and we won't be
taking your calls.

S2 (38:51):
Hey, Carl Claussen here guest hosting for Chris Brooks. And
I've I've put a challenge out and I want to
thank you. We want to make sure that what it
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And we've got a win win. Give a gift. And
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(39:15):
Sarah and Sylvia from Illinois. Thank you. And so many
others have already jumped in today. Tremendous grateful for this.
You want to be a part of this book is dying. No.
Might you got to get it. I sound like an
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(39:41):
any amount or visit equipped radio and I'm asking you
to pour it on here. This is the ultimate win win.
Come and get it today guys. Sean, I got a
big apologetics question. It's a heartache so many kids raised
in church probably had an illusion of salvation. Some were
born again and have their derailed disciples. But the vast

(40:03):
majority raised in church went to every program. Imperfect but
great parents. And it's an epidemic in our culture today.
Give us a couple of apologetic approaches to even deal
with wayward kids.

S3 (40:21):
Well, gosh, this is a tough one. The first thing
I would say is, especially to parents or teachers or
youth pastors, is give yourself some grace. There is no
formula that can perfectly turn a child into a Christ follower,
because we have this stubborn thing called free will.

S2 (40:39):
Will.

S3 (40:40):
You know. So I've seen parents. I'm like, I don't
know how they turned out. Such an amazing kid hoping
not to be judgmental and amazing parents going, wow, their
kids just made bad choices for whatever reason it may be. Second,
realize that God's heart is more just torn up than
ours could ever be. I mean, Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Yeah.

(41:01):
And he he is with us in this heart and
pain and desire to see our kids come back to me,
there's a proverb that says, the purposes in a man's
heart are A person's heart is deep, and a person
of wisdom draws it out. I want to listen to
this person ask questions to this individual and get to
the heart Part of where the disconnect really is. And

(41:25):
sometimes that's emotional. Sometimes that's relational. They've seen hypocrisy. Sometimes
it's intellectual. They're just not convinced Christianity is true. And
so when we get to the root of it, then
we can better address it accordingly. If this person is
open to coming back to the faith, and the last

(41:46):
thing I'd say is oftentimes it's important to take a
long term perspective. Sometimes people go, which book of yours
will I bring my child back to the faith? I'm like,
it's not quite that simple, you know? If they're open
to reading it, you know, God can and does use
this in people's lives sometimes. But just take a longer
term perspective to this, because when kids do come back

(42:09):
to the faith, they often take time. Not always, but
take time and come back to a different understanding of
the faith. Like maybe from Calvary Chapel to Anglican, just
to make up an example. And so just have grace
for them along the way.

S2 (42:23):
You know, that's great words. Grace is. And I think
letting ourselves off the hook and and parents that feel like, oh,
how did I fail them? The Holy Spirit saves. We
don't save our kids. I think that's a big piece
of this, isn't it, Shawn?

S3 (42:41):
Oh my goodness. Amen to that. You're right. And you know,
one of the things that I often ask, I've asked
a lot of people who've left their faith why they
left the faith. So often I'll say, tell me when
you came into the faith. Tell me when you knew
you were a sinner and cried out to God for
his grace. And I'm telling you, Carl, I think maybe

(43:03):
once I've had somebody have a genuine conversion experience like that.
And I'm not saying it's the experience that saves us.
But if we're not aware of our sin and cry
out to God for his forgiveness, I'm not sure that
we're ever saved. No. So that's why just leaning back
and like you said, not thinking we have the power
to do this and trusting the Holy Spirit, I think

(43:25):
is liberating. But it's also right. I mean, I can't
even force my kids to clean up their room, let
alone control what they believe, you know. And you know what?
If I could say one more thing and this can
be painful for parents, it's just to say, can you
share with me where you're at and why? And as
a parent, I just want to understand and listen. That's

(43:48):
an act of humility. It's an act of love rather
than so many parents understandably freak out, try to control this,
try to just, you know, they alienate their kids sometimes
all out of good intentions. Just take a step back
and say, I love you no matter what. Help me
understand where you're at. When this started, uh, how you

(44:08):
think we could respond lovingly and just listen?

S2 (44:13):
Yeah. And I want to take this a little bit further.
I've got a friend that's got a son, and it
seems that a lot of a lot of university, private college,
there's a lot of intellectual drift away from God. And
he had a discussion with his son, and his son said, listen,
I've tried, but I can't get around the corner of canonicity. Now,

(44:35):
that's canonicity is how the scriptures came to be. What
what books made it and what books didn't. And I
looked at him and I said, I doubt whether they've
really studied that. They probably read an article in The
Atlantic or something. You know, that kind of undergirded some
of these arguments are just a thin veil for their

(44:55):
own rebellion. And not wanting to bend the knee to Jesus,
isn't it, Sean? Sometimes.

S3 (45:00):
Yeah, they can be. There's often multiple factors that are
at play. And certainly one of them is the cost
of following Jesus. I remember a young man said to
me one time we were in conversation. He goes, you know,
we know that Trinity is a contradiction. I was like,
we know that. Like, wait a minute. Who have you read?
This kid was 19 years old, said he left his faith.

(45:22):
I'm like. And I listed off some of the leading
defenders of this. I'm like, look, when it's all said
and done, maybe you're right, but you don't know that
right now. Not having even read the most significant Christian
thinkers defending this in his case, I said, I think
there's pride rethink, you know, stuff that you don't know. Now,
that's not always the case, but in this.

S2 (45:43):
Case is.

S3 (45:44):
It was it? It often is. I think you're right.

S2 (45:47):
I mean, at the end of the day, it's a
humbling thing to bow under the leadership of anyone else,
let alone the maker of heaven and earth. This is
powerful stuff. Sean, I just got a minute here. Um,
what's on your heart? Give me your best 30s. What
do people need to hear today?

S3 (46:06):
You know what I would just say at at the
heart of this book is just a call to be
ready with an answer for people. Yeah, we live in
a culture where people have real questions they do. They
want to know if their life has meaning. They want
to know if there's life after death. They want to
know if God is real and God loves them. And
when we take the time to understand what we believe

(46:26):
and why we believe it, it builds up our confidence.
But I think also puts us in a position to
help people. And oftentimes God brings those people into our
life when we've taken the time to prepare.

S2 (46:38):
Doctor Sean McDowell. The name of the book is apologetics
for an Ever Changing Culture. Get a copy with the
gift of any amount. Right now I'm asking you to
go to the phone lines 888644 4144 888644 4144 or
go to equip radio.org. This is equipped with Chris Brooks.

(46:59):
It's a production of Moody Radio and a ministry of
Moody Bible Institute. Incredible time with you, Sean. You killed it,
my man, I love you.

S3 (47:07):
Thanks, Carley.