May 7, 2025 • 47 mins
Join Roy Patterson and Dr. Rosalie de Rosset as they open the pages of a timeless classic—one that offers rich guidance for the joys and trials of the Christian life. Along the way, you’ll meet unforgettable companions who can help you stay the course—and a few you'll need to steer clear of. Step into the journey and discover practical, enduring wisdom for living as a Christian, no matter what lies ahead!
This month's featured resource: Pilgrim's Progress in Today's English
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:19):
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I'm so thrilled that you've joined
us today. Do me a favor strap on your seat
belt as we navigate through the contours of culture, as
always with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But
before we do that, let me remind you, this is
the day that the Lord has made. He is giving
(00:40):
it as a gift so that you and I can
rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Today
I want you to help me welcome my good friend
Roy Patterson to the host seat. Roy is a man
of God who has ministered through radio and the pastorate
(01:01):
for decades. He's the host and originator of the Urban
Praise streaming channel, and also host Celebration of Praise and
Music for Sunday here on Moody Radio. Roy, thank you
for leading this edition of equip.
S2 (01:16):
Thank you so much, Chris. Really, really appreciate you. How
God has used you down through the years to challenge
us to think deeper and broader and wider, and certainly
more biblically. Chris Brooks is a tremendous leader, pastor, preacher,
a dedicated husband and father. And so he's in our
prayers as he's going through some challenges and praying that
(01:40):
God will continue to bless him, especially regarding his daughter,
who's facing serious sickness. We just believe that God is able.
God is faithful and God is sufficient. Hey, today we've
got a dear, dear friend in studio, someone that you're
going to love and appreciate. It's Doctor Rosalie de Rossi.
(02:02):
She is an adjunct professor of literature, English, and homiletics
at the Moody Bible Institute, where she taught full time
for more than five decades. She has authored or contributed
to many books, including Unproduced and Unshaken, The Moody Handbook
of Preaching, and the Moody Classics series. She earned an
(02:22):
Ma in English from Northeastern Illinois University, an M.Div. from
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in language literacy
and rhetoric from the University of Illinois at Chicago. In
addition to teaching, she regularly appears on Moody Broadcasting Network
and she's a guest. She's a co-host. She speaks at conferences, seminars.
(02:46):
She lives on the North Side of Chicago. Doctor rosy
de rosé. How are you?
S3 (02:51):
I'm. I'm great. It's a pleasure to be here. Especially
with you, Roy.
S2 (02:55):
Well, I've got to do a disclaimer. I actually had
rosy as a teacher, and she taught me, uh, during
1978 to 81, my major was broadcasting. And so I
took her for a creative writing. And I took you
for a number of other things as well. So to
have a friend like you in studio is just a joy.
(03:17):
Thank you for being here.
S3 (03:18):
Well, thank you for having me.
S2 (03:20):
Now, I learned a lot about writing. I learned a
lot about attacking the subject and bringing thoughts into creative, creative, framing, etc. um,
but one of the things that I love the most
was how you assigned us to read, read, read, write, write, write.
And one of your favorite books is Pilgrim's Progress. Is
(03:41):
that right?
S3 (03:41):
It is. I was absolutely raised on the book. My
mother loved it. She as a missionary woman, she taught
it to small children like three and four, and they
would beg for the lesson if they couldn't get there.
And she had three D projects for them to make
with it. I don't know how many times I had
that book read to me before I could read myself.
And then it has been a staple of my life
(04:03):
all my life.
S2 (04:04):
I got to believe there's a number of people who
are listening to us right now that know this book,
that love this book, haven't heard about this book in
a long time, and there will be others who have never,
ever heard of it before. And so I want us
to to dive deep into it. Tell me about the author.
S3 (04:19):
Okay. John Bunyan's dates are 1628 to 1688. Okay. He
was in a very, um, upsetting, I mean, a very
volatile time in history. So, Charles, one came in, he
was imprisoned for 12 years. He probably because he refused
to to submit to the way they wanted him to
preach and the rules around it. And he preached extemporaneously.
(04:42):
So they put him in jail. He came out at
the six year period, wouldn't, wouldn't submit, and went back
into jail. It's thought that he probably started Pilgrim's Progress
in the first half of his jail sentence, and finished
it later. It was published around 1678. He was born
in Elstow, England. Okay. I have visited his birthplace, the
church where he was baptized, and then the town where
(05:05):
there's a huge statue erected in his honor. Bedford. And
there there's a wonderful Pilgrim's Progress museum with stained glass
windows that represent scenes in Pilgrim's Progress. So he and
he never had a lot of education. He got his
education by listening to sermons, talking to people more educated
than himself, and knowing the Bible. And he knew the
Bible so profoundly that he he had the Bible and
(05:28):
Foxe's Book of Martyrs with him in jail. But it's
almost like his simple country English became side by side
with the Bible. And when he writes, Warren Wiersbe has
an annotated version a long time ago out of print,
but where he shows you how many scripture references just
run through the entire entire book. He was married twice
(05:50):
and had seven children. So that's and he was in
the I think he went into the had a military stint,
but for the most part he remained within just a
few miles of home most of his life and became
a tinker after he came out of the army. And
it just goes to show that you don't have to
go traveling around the world to know people. Human nature.
(06:13):
It's a tremendous book of psychology as well as theology.
And one of the things I would say it's often
seen as a devotional classic, which is a misnomer. Okay.
The book was, uh, as as revolutionary, as a political tract,
as some people say, Marx's Das Kapital, because it claimed
theodicy and the vindication of divine goodness and providence and
(06:36):
view of the existence of evil, which would have been
anathema at the time. And this is a rigorous book.
This is a book that preaches against laziness and sloth. Okay.
It talks about persistence and continuance and defiance of laziness
and continuing on through the Christian life. And it does not.
This is not, as one of my teachers who taught
(06:56):
it to me said, this is not a flight on
United Airlines. This is a pilgrimage.
S2 (07:03):
So there's you're climbing rough terrain. You're going through some
valleys and hopefully over some mountains as well. Hey, I
want to give you a chance to call and talk
to a doctor. Rose. Rose. Rose. The number is 87754836758775483675.
Love to hear from you. If you've heard of Pilgrim's Progress,
(07:26):
I'd also love to hear from you. If you're challenged
by what doctor Rose De Rosa is talking about. There's
a lot in this book and we're going to dive
into it. One of the things that jumps out to
me about John Bunyan is courage. When you said that
he was in prison for preaching the way he preached,
I want you to dig some more into that, please.
S3 (07:47):
I mean, he just he he had a singular devotion
to what he believed was truth. Yeah. And he wasn't
going to let the political systems of the day intimidate him.
But what's so interesting about that? And I love this.
He was a person of many, many fears. If you
read John, his spiritual autobiography, which is called Grace abounding
(08:08):
to the least of. To the most of sinners. It
reads like a roller coaster ride. He doesn't feel saved.
He feels he. He gets up from his. He doesn't feel.
He just goes like this. Like this. And if you
look at the book, there are three real standout characters
in the book because Bunyan believed in community. He did
not believe we would get through this pilgrimage of life
(08:29):
without it. And it's absolutely true. So he was given
faithful after his conversion, after the house, beautiful in the
valley of humiliation. And then faithful dies in Vanity Fair.
Because at the hands of, you know, it's the lust
of the flesh and the in the eyes and.
S2 (08:47):
Pride.
S3 (08:47):
And pride of life. And he dies there, and Christian
goes on. But faithful, faithful sins are more the lust
of the flesh, which is why it's so wonderful that
he refuses it even though he dies a martyr's death.
And and Christians are not his are fear and fear.
And he. But he keeps going, you know, he falls
(09:09):
asleep sometimes and sleep in Scripture and in Pilgrim's Progress
is always a problem. If you fall asleep when you're
not supposed to, you lose your way. Yeah, he loses
his role, which is the proof of his conversion, you know,
at the at the beginning and has to go back
for it. And he he keeps and then he, he
takes the easy way and gets to giant despair, which
(09:29):
we can talk about later. But he is afraid. And
the passage at the end of the book about the
river of death. This is beautiful, and I really want
to encourage the reading of this book that we're talking
about today by retold by James Thomas, because it puts
it in language that anybody can understand. I don't think
(09:51):
God is going to give us a gold star because
we read The Pilgrim's Progress. I mean, my mother had
an 1898 version illustrated by Doré, which I just gave
away to a very good student. But, you know, and
I've read it in the original. But if you if
you're afraid of it, I've always said to people before,
read the children's version. Read the version by by Tom.
(10:12):
It's very readable. But some we imagine that we'll just
go into death and just lyrically drift away, you know,
quoting scripture. But the the truth is, some people go
to death and become terrified. And when he goes through
the river of death, he almost drowns. But the companion
he's given is hopeful. Hopeful is an optimist. He's a
kind of a happy person. He can. He can pull
(10:34):
him up. He can remind him of the promises of God.
But that River of death scene where he almost goes under.
I remember Larry Crabb saying that his father, who had
been a very strong Christian, got to death. And it
was really tough. And I remember my father, who was
very strong, saying, I'm not afraid of death, but I'm
afraid of dying.
S2 (10:51):
I've heard that before.
S3 (10:52):
Promise that that process. Yeah. And it is the most
wonderful look at it. I have to say, I think
of Pilgrim's Progress every week of my life. Every week,
Every week. Wow. Specific passages. Yeah.
S2 (11:06):
Mm. Well, I love that. Hey, here's the number to call.
It's 87754836758775483675. Love to hear from you. And, uh, we're
interacting with my good friend, Doctor Rosie de rosé. And
it's an amazing opportunity for us to grow in grace
(11:26):
and knowledge. As you probably have surmised, uh, we're talking
about allegory, and I want her to dig into that
a little bit more as well. How God has used
this allegory to impact millions of Christians around the world.
You've heard of this book. You've enjoyed this book. You
want to know more about the book? Give me a
call right now. 87754836758775483675. Rosie would love to hear from you.
(11:56):
I'd love to hear from you as well. I'm Roy Patterson,
sitting in for Chris Brooks. You're listening to equipped.
S1 (12:17):
Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan is one of the best
selling books of all time. It traces Bunyan's own spiritual
journey through the character of Christian. I want to send
you Pilgrim's Progress in today's English, a modern translation that
faithfully preserved Bunyan's powerful message. Follow Christian on his journey
to the Celestial City and discover timeless wisdom for your
(12:40):
own spiritual walk. Request your copy when you give a
gift of any amount to equip, simply call 888644 4144
or visit Equip Radio Org.
S2 (12:56):
Welcome back to equipped I'm Roy Patterson. Usually you hear
Chris Brooks here He's taking some time away. Love, love,
love him. Praying for him. And we just believe that
God is God and he has the final say. Our
guest today is Rosie de Rossi. We're talking about Pilgrim's
Progress and what an incredible book. It has served the
body of Christ so well. I am impressed with the
(13:18):
fact that this man, he's in prison for his faith.
And they said, you're going to preach the way we
want you to preach. You you submit the information, we
approve it. And don't go off script. We'll tell you
what to. And he decides I'm going to preach what
I want. I'm going to preach the gospel. As a
result of that, he's incarcerated. And while he's incarcerated, Rosie
(13:40):
had really two choices, two things he could have done.
He could have sat there and sulked, or he could
have sat there and served God. He'd served by writing,
and that pen impacted the world. So talk about allegory,
will you?
S3 (13:54):
Yeah. Allegory defined is a story, a play, a poem,
a picture, or other work in which the characters and
events represent particular qualities or ideas. Christian. Faithful. Hopeful. Pliable. Obstinate. See,
they represent the qualities that they are. Sure, it's kind
of fallen off now as a genre, but at the
(14:16):
time this was one of the first. It's not a novel,
but it's the first kind of fictional account. It would
have not have been received well if it hadn't been
in this form, but the deep spiritual quality of it
helped it to be become a great Puritan classic.
S2 (14:31):
One of the things I love about it is that
God will use people to do things that haven't been
done so that he can reach people that haven't been reached,
and so for him to do it the way he's
done it in a situation that is really dark and
dismal is amazing to me. And I also want to add,
from a creative writing perspective, you know, I took you
(14:52):
for that class hoping to still get an A, but, uh, anyway, uh,
from a creative writing standpoint, I might not receive it
as well. If someone says, okay, be more diligent, don't
be slothful, be more committed. But using allegory has an impact.
S3 (15:09):
Oh, and that's the great power of fiction, period. Yeah,
but this at the time was that it's indirect. You know,
if you you can preach a message about ten ways
to stay pure, or you can tell a great story
about how somebody didn't write, and it's at a distance
from you. And so you can see it. Sure. And
so here is the embodiment of all and it's also
(15:30):
a great theological Puritan classic. I mean, this is heavy theology.
This is written so that your heart would ache. This
is written to convict you. It's written to for so
many purposes. And one of the interesting things it's been
translated into over 200 languages, including Fijian, Cree, Esperanto and
Pitman shorthand. I mean, it goes on and on from there.
(15:53):
It's just absolutely amazing. So, uh. Yeah, This is this
is this is something you need to read. It's really
easy to walk away from it and think, this is
long gone. I, I think of the book every week
of my life. I think of passages I think of,
especially the the part when he meets Apollyon. He comes
(16:14):
out of the house beautiful, where purity, prudence and Charity
have have quizzed him about his faith. Really hard. These
women have gone to town on him. Why did you
leave your wife and children behind? Why are you here?
What have you been through? It's sort of like a testimony,
the spoken testimony, to make sure you know where you
are and that you're. You're standing in position of Christ.
(16:37):
And then he goes out and he meets Apollyon. And
Napoleon is a kind of a Satanic character who immediately says,
I'm going to take you back from the clutches of,
you know, your Redeemer. And Christian says, oh, you destroyer.
I like his service. I like his wages. I like
his servants. I like his government. I am his servant,
and I will follow him. And Napoleon says, when you've
(16:59):
cooled off a little, consider what lies ahead of you.
His servants come to an ill end because they cross me.
Many of them die, and he doesn't seem to rescue them,
while I often deliver my own. Christian says his children
do not expect present deliverance, for they will have it
when their prince comes. The glory of the angels. But
you've been unfaithful to him, says Apollo. And you know
(17:19):
how the devil comes to us.
S2 (17:21):
And says.
S3 (17:21):
Look how awful you've done. Look, you're a failure. You
have become discouraged, gotten off the way, lost your scroll.
You were afraid of the lions at the house. Beautiful.
Tempted to go back. You are sometimes proud. Christian says
all this is true. And much more that you have
not said. But the prince whom I serve and honor
is merciful and ready to forgive. So I think of
(17:43):
passages like that, and I think of how honestly, he's
a wuss sometimes. He is so scared he gets off
the path, giant despair captures him, and giant despair has
a wife that's worse than giant despair. She's a piece
of work, and they have him imprisoned with hopeful in
a jail cell. Sure. And there's Christian falling into what
(18:04):
we call today. Suicidal ideation. You know, just absolute despair.
One of the things that Bunyan. Bunyan had despair. He
had fear. And it takes hopeful to remind him of
the key. The prompt with the key of promises, and Christian,
as you were reminding me, tries to open the door, can't,
and then gets it. He remembers the promises of Christ,
(18:24):
unlocks the door, and he's out on his way.
S2 (18:28):
I'm fascinated by the fact that that this book hits everything.
Everything that I can see in the Christian life, whether
it's in the beginning where he deals with pliable and obstinate.
Now again, we're talking allegory. I mean, I've sat in
the room with with despair. I've been in despair before.
I've sat in the room with shame. I've sat in
(18:49):
the room with guilt. I've sat in the room with
pride and come on you guys, you've you've done the
same thing. And if you could really deal with these
issues in ways that lead you to victory, that leads
you to peace. Um, I think you would do that.
And so this book deals with the different areas of
our lives, the different things we'll meet on this Christian
(19:11):
journey to help us grow in grace and knowledge. So
let me give you guys some good news. Would you
like a copy of this book? We'd love for you
to have a copy. All you've got to do is
go to equipped radio.org that's equipped radio.org, and a donation
of any size will cause you to get this book.
(19:32):
It will bless us. It will keep Chris Brooks and
equipped on the air. We would love for you to
have a copy. So in giving you get as well.
And it's a book that will bless your life. Uh,
again go to equipped. Radio equipped. G. And, um. You'll
be super glad that you did. Our guest today is
(19:54):
Rosie Day. Rosie. And she's one of my favorite literature scholars.
And she knows the Bible as well. So do you
have a favorite part of the book and tell us
how has that part of the book impacted you?
S3 (20:07):
Polly Ann it definitely. But as I said, for me,
I'm so impressed with the fact that this is a man.
And I'll tell you another favorite to that that was afraid.
I mean, so, so many times light Christian fiction is
is just too chirpy. It's just it's all wrapped up.
(20:27):
It's it's wishful thinking. It's not the real deal. This
is the real deal. This is who I am. This
is who he is. One of the things that's very
impressive is that when he he leaves, he runs out
of the city of destruction, almost immediately falls into the
slough of Despond. One of the things that Bunyan acknowledges
is depression, absolute depression. And he is helped by help
(20:49):
and evangelist to get out of it. And the reason
he's affected is because pliable. If you think of the
word pliable, pliable means to flexible. And there are a
lot of pairings in this book pliable and obstinate. Those
two things that are opposite. But they're both bad for us. Well,
then he finally gets to the house of the interpreter,
and everybody needs to look at the house of the interpreter.
(21:10):
The house of interpreter. He learns all its theology before
his conversion experience, which is marvelous. Yeah, that's that's a
very different kind of thing. We usually think you get
saved and then you learn your theology, which can happen.
He learns his theology. There are seven scenes he learns
about grace. Five of them are teaching scenes. Two of
them are cautionary. And he's warned. There's a man in
(21:33):
an iron cage. This man in the iron cage failed
to make a commitment. He did something. We don't know
if he believes in eternal security or not. I mean,
we you can't totally tell. But the man in the
iron cage went so far into unbelief and bad behavior
that he could no longer confess his sin. Wow. And
it's a cautionary tale. Yeah. Don't go so far that
(21:53):
you do that. One of the things I love is
that he has a scene where he. The water Grace
seems to be. Somebody keeps trying to throw water on
Grace in his life in one of those scenes. And
the whole time, Jesus is secretly feeding the fire with
a little bit of oil, as much as the water
of discouragement comes to try to shut out the fire
(22:15):
of grace, the oil feeds it. And I think of that.
I think, okay, this is a time when the water
is coming over me and Christ is keeping me. He
keeps me. He keeps me. He keeps Christian. As long
as Christian remains absolutely faithful to what he knows.
S2 (22:34):
Faithfulness is so, so important. And I would submit that
we have. Please don't let me get in trouble for this. Um,
we have submitted to a generation that Jesus is a
Santa Claus. He's a vending machine, and he will give
you what you want when you want it, and your
life will be easy. You'll walk down the yellow brick
(22:56):
road and just have cupcakes every day. When in reality
we have to be diligent. We have to be faithful.
There will be suffering, there will be discouraging moments. And
I think this book points to that. And I love
the title Pilgrim's Progress.
S3 (23:11):
Progress. Yeah. No, I think that in a way, life
is harder today than it's ever been psychologically and emotionally.
But we have so many anesthetics and I'm going to
say this I would never do a program without saying this.
The the cell phone is one of the greatest anesthetics
(23:31):
of our feeling and our life that we it's become
an addiction. And instead of working through that terrible moment
that's ahead of us and sitting with it in a
way we fall asleep by, by, by anesthetizing our pain,
and instead of directly Irectly countering it with the presence
of Christ.
S2 (23:48):
That makes sense to me. Andre Crouch once said, if
I never had a problem, I wouldn't know that God
could solve them. I wouldn't know what faith in His
Word could do. Through it all, I've learned to trust
in Jesus. And so this kind of book speaks to
the reality of the Christian life and causes us to
go deeper. Yes, it causes us to go further. And
so on one hand, he talks about diligence. On the
(24:11):
other hand he talks about sloth, which is not a
word we use a lot today.
S3 (24:15):
It's not laziness because sometimes we need to be lazy.
But sloth is not wanting the best. It's taking the
middle road. It's being pliable. It's being obstinate, being talkative.
There's a character there, talkative. All he does is blather
and faithful is taken in by him. And Christian says,
can you tell he's not saying anything right? And faithful goes, oh,
(24:37):
I didn't notice. He says, let that guy go. He
doesn't mean a thing. He came over the wall. He
doesn't want anything real. He doesn't want to go through.
He wants to go around. And so I think I
think we're in a tremendous age of sloth. My students
talk about it a lot where you don't want the
best anymore. You've gotten used to this kind of tepid,
(24:58):
low simmer life that never has any highs. We need enchantment.
Enchantment comes through. Facing. I don't mean by that magic,
I mean enchantment. We need to feel delighted with Christ,
to know him in a way that keeps us obedient.
And we've got a whole generation scrambling to try to
figure that out.
S2 (25:16):
And I think the onus is on us. Those that
do know ought to teach and mentor and inspire, and
I believe that God can use us to do that.
Me and you. Us to do that. We've got Doctor
Rosie De Rossi in studio with us today. Tremendous woman
of God. Um, she's committed to this generation. She doesn't
(25:38):
just speak from a posture of judgmentalism. She has been
in the classroom, has mentored, has encouraged and we appreciate
her being with us and sharing her heart. Hey, I'm
Roy Patterson, I'm sitting in for Chris Brooks today. Thank
you so much for being with us. Go to Equip radio.
Equip radio give a gift of any size and we
(25:59):
will get this book out to you. Stick around. We'll
be back after this. Welcome back to equipped. I'm Roy
(26:20):
Patterson sitting in for Chris Brooks. Thanks so much for
hanging out with me. You guys are simply amazing. We
have a book called Pilgrim's Progress. I'm talking with Rosie
De Rossi about it. And you love this program. You
love Chris Brooks. You have been engaging with him for
a while now, and we certainly appreciate that. The content
(26:41):
that we bring you day in and day out, will.
It speaks to not only the heart, the emotions, but
it speaks to the mind. What do we need to
do to be relevant in this age? We certainly don't
hate anybody. We love everybody, but we do want to
speak the truth in love and equipped is all about that.
So thank you for your generosity. Thank you for giving.
(27:04):
Thank you for sharing. We want to put this book
in your hand. A gift of any size will help
us to do just that. We've heard from some people, Jake,
all the way from Tennessee as, uh, decided to stand
with us. Also Arthur from Cleveland. Thank you so much.
Jay from Chicago. Paula from Virginia. Uh, let's see who
(27:27):
we've got here. Uh, we've got Ann from Franklin, Tennessee.
Kevin from where is that? Dundee, Ohio. Uh, Lori from Moscow, Idaho. Well,
it could be Moscow, Russia. It could be, I don't know,
you know, worldwide.
S3 (27:46):
I went through Moscow, Idaho.
S2 (27:47):
Moscow, Idaho. Okay. Uh, comrade. Amen. And then we've got epiphania.
And I'm sure I jacked that name up. Pray for me, sister.
But she's she's, uh, giving from Florida. Hey, all these
folks are giving, and we want you to be a
part of it as well. Uh, all you have to
do is go to equipped radio.org. That's equipped radio. Let
(28:09):
me thank you in advance for standing with us as
we boldly proclaim the truth. In studio with me is
Rosa De Rosa, one of my favorite prophets? When I
was a student here at Moody Bible Institute, she helped
to shape me and to encourage me, to prod me.
And I appreciate her. I owe her a great debt.
(28:29):
You've got something you want to share with us?
S3 (28:31):
Yeah. One thing I forgot to say, Biographically was that
he drew crowds by the end of his life of
1200 people. At 7 a.m. in the morning. Wow. Now,
I'd like to see somebody else that did that besides
Spurgeon in his conversion. He said when he was saved,
this is what he said. Now, did my chains fall
off my legs? Indeed. This is Christian. I was loosed
(28:53):
from my affliction and irons. My temptations fled. Now Christ
was all my wisdom, my righteousness, my sanctification, and my redemption. Nevertheless,
all that being true Christians still struggled with fear on
his trip. And you know the devil knows exactly who
to put in our way. So in one section, he
puts in two characters. There are often paired characters, timorous
(29:17):
and mistrust. That speaks a lot to me. You know,
somebody who would, who is timid, can't make a stand,
and someone who is mistrustful. Well, this affected Christian, especially
since he had left his role back at the arbor
where he had fallen asleep inappropriately. Sure and timorous keeps saying,
the further we go, the more danger we meet. And
timorous says, yeah, and there are a couple lions because
(29:39):
there are lions by the house. Beautiful. Christian says, you
make me afraid. But whither shall I flee to be
safe if I go back to my own country that's
prepared for fire and brimstone, I'll perish there. If I
can get to the Celestial City, I'm sure to be
in safety there. So to go back is nothing but death.
To go forward is fear of death and life everlasting.
(30:00):
Beyond it. I'm going to go forward.
S2 (30:02):
Wow.
S3 (30:02):
See, this is persistence. This is diligence. This is not
being slothful. So mistrust and timorous ran down the hill
and he went on his way. And he felt in
his bosom for his role that he might read it,
his instructions. And it was gone. So he remembered that
he had slept. And he goes back and he comes
to the arbor, and he's very, very embarrassed. And there
(30:24):
he sat a while and wept. But at last Providence
would have it looked sorrowfully down the settle. And there
he saw his role. And it shows you how when
we go forward, the Lord gives us what we need.
It's amazing how he restores to us the things that
we have let go. His mercy is always greater than
his judgment when we are persisting in obedience. And who
(30:46):
can tell how joyful he was? Because it was the
assurance of his life. And that's the Word of God
and acceptance as the desired haven. So he gave thanks
to God, and he nimbly ran up the rest of
the hill.
S2 (31:01):
Amen.
S3 (31:02):
And where he'll see the lions. But he clings to Christ,
walks through them. The lions cannot touch him, because he's
got his his power in Jesus. And there he is rested,
and he is given instruction by charity, prudence and piety.
S2 (31:16):
Mhm. Well, there's a scripture that says I shall live
and not die.
S3 (31:19):
Die.
S2 (31:20):
And I think that is so important. It's like we
need more grit.
S3 (31:26):
We need much more grit.
S2 (31:27):
Do we we do. We need we need more grit.
This is not for the faint of heart. Especially if
you want God to take you further and take you deeper. Okay.
So we talked about sloth. We talked a little bit
about persistence and diligence. Tell me some other characters that
we encounter in Pilgrim's Progress.
S3 (31:48):
Well, we as I said, we encountered talkative. We encountered pliable.
We encounter helpful who is who is one of the
ones that helps him out of the slough of Despond. Sure,
we encounter a character that's very interesting to me and
very comforting. And his name is little Faith. And little
faith is a Christian, but his faith is not very strong.
S2 (32:08):
Interesting.
S3 (32:09):
And and yet the mercy of God comes through. And
when one of the characters, I think it might be
helpful or one of them is tempted to kind of
doubt him. The other character says, no. He says, the
littlest bit of faith you show, you go on with
what you've got. And I love that.
S2 (32:28):
I do too.
S3 (32:28):
I just love that. And I remember my, my mother
saying when she went to the mission field during World
War two with nothing out by boat, and they walked
around to listen to the language, she said. I thought
I had been forsaken by God. 42 years later, they retired.
Isn't that something that that it's that you put one
(32:49):
one foot in front of the other, and we cannot
become identified with our weakest areas? Isn't it interesting that
there's mistrust and timorous and obstinate and pliable? Sure. That's
like getting in. That's like becoming identified with the mental
health issue you have or the oppression that you have. Sure, sure.
It's the first thing you say about yourself. Instead, Christian says,
(33:12):
I am identified with Christ. Amen. Who takes me through?
I've done much worse than you can ever imagine. But
I refuse to surrender to the tempter who tells me
you are this because this is so painful to you.
S2 (33:26):
Good stuff. Really, really good stuff. I want you to
call right now and talk to Rosie. Um, here's the number. 87754836758775483675.
Love for you to call us. When I think of
this book and as you share it, I think of
(33:49):
people who hear voices. I'm one of them. And when
I say that, I do hear the voice of pliable.
I do hear the the voice of of sloth. I
do hear voices that are saying, you can't make it,
you can't do it. And every now and then there
will be people who will come along and will say
out loud to me, um, you are doing too much.
You can't go any further. You should be happy where
(34:11):
you're at. You should calm down. You should be mediocre
like me. Why are you going to these places? And
to have this kind of resource in my hand. In
your hand? It makes a difference. So what I'd like
for you to do is give us a call. Right now,
the number is (877) 548-3675. If you go to equipped radios
(34:33):
and make a donation of any size, whatever the size
might be. And thank you so much for those who
have given. We'll send you this book directly out. We'll
send it directly out to you and you will enjoy it.
All right, so, Rosie, uh, how about you? Have you
heard these voices before?
S3 (34:47):
Oh my goodness. And, you know, um, I am a
woman of a certain age. I'm in my 70s. Wow.
And aging is not for cowards.
S2 (34:57):
Okay.
S3 (34:58):
And it's not something you can predict. And I remember
when my parents were in their. They lived to be.
My mother was 98. My father was 90. But I
remember in the last ten years or 15 years of
their lives, they were always going to funerals or they
were always visiting the sick. And I'm coming into that
stage where, you know, I have friends that have died.
But I've also coming into that stage of fearfulness over what?
(35:21):
The future. I'm a single woman. Fearfulness over what the
future holds. Sure. What? What are we going? What am
I going to do? What have I what? And those
voices come into your head. They do. I sometimes lose
sleep at night. You know, you're you're tempted to avoid
them in certain ways or they come around you. And
I'm not kidding when I say I think of his
(35:44):
planting his foot before Apollyon and saying, I am much
worse than you could ever tell me. But my position
is in Christ, who has promised me the Prince of
Peace is with me, and you cannot touch me. And
one of the things that he learns in the interpreter's
House is that there is a tremendous fight for him
(36:05):
getting into the Celestial City. He is injured. We are
not going to remain an injured by the forces in
this world. They do affect us. We are not spared anything.
The I often say to people, we are not spared
any kind of suffering, otherwise we wouldn't have these horrendous
stories where whole families die or terrible illnesses come along,
or children are ill, or you lose your job unfairly,
(36:28):
or this or that or the other. The only difference
that it makes is that Christ is with us. There
is meaning and this is a good story. I'm not esoteric.
I'm down to earth. This is a good story.
S2 (36:41):
It is a good story. The Bible says it rains
on the just and on the unjust. And the more
we do hear stories about people that are going through trials,
tragedies and even situations that seem unbearable the more we realize,
wait a minute. If they can make it, I can
make it too. And I love the fact that in
many ways this is like a journal. I don't want
(37:03):
to use the word diary, but it is like a journal.
And just saying, hey, I've seen this, I've heard that.
And yet as a Christian, I'm moving forward. And so
maybe today, maybe today you're hearing some of these voices
that are intimidating, that are daunting. I'm here to let
you know, by God's grace, you can make it. You
are going to make it. Please give us a call
(37:25):
(877) 548-3675 75. I'm Roy, sitting in for Chris. This is equipped.
S1 (37:34):
For centuries, Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan has helped Christians
navigate life's spiritual struggles. However, the 17th century English can
be challenging for modern readers. That's why I'd like to
sing you Pilgrim's Progress in today's English. Join Christian's journey
as he confronts temptations, doubts and challenges that reflect our
(37:55):
own spiritual battles. Request your copy when you give to support. Equip.
888644 4144 or visit equip radio org.
S2 (38:12):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Roy patterson
I'm here with Rosie de Rossi. We're talking about the
wonderful book Pilgrim's Progress. Hey, let's go to the phones.
We've got Zoraida from Cleveland, Ohio. Zoraida, please go ahead
with your question or comment.
S4 (38:28):
Okay, my question is if this is an easy book
to read, I have mere Christianity from C.S. Lewis that
although the story is very helpful and very informative, I
wasn't able to read this book, you know? Um, to me,
(38:49):
it's not it's not told into a story. Oh, it
doesn't grab my attention. It's hard.
S3 (38:56):
Mere Christianity is not a story. It's what we call
a work of apologetics. And it's probably best learned in
a classroom. I used to teach it. No, there's no
comparison between Pilgrim's Progress and especially not the version that's
available by, uh, the one that is being advertised today,
that it's retold by James Thomas. It is a story.
You will be able to read it, you will be
(39:18):
drawn in. The other one is much more the truth
of apologetics, a defense of faith. So you can't compare
the two. So be heartened by that and try Pilgrim's Progress.
S2 (39:28):
You're going to enjoy it, Zoraida. Appreciate you. Let's go. Buckeyes! Okay. Um, I'm.
I'm grateful for for what you brought us today. Because
we live in a world that needs encouragement. We we
need to know that God is God. God is with
us even when it feels like God is not there.
(39:50):
That's I think that's a challenge for many, many people.
Would you agree with that?
S3 (39:53):
This is about the this. Absolutely. This is about the
presence of God even when you don't feel it. This
is the showing you. One man's journey where God is
always at his elbow and he he pulls through even
through the river of death. Yes.
S2 (40:10):
Yeah. We'll come back to that river in just a
little while. Let's go to line three. Michelle from Boca Raton, Florida.
Go ahead. Michelle, please.
S5 (40:18):
Well, I just wanted to say that I had bought
that book for my granddaughter, and she's going to be
four years old, and that is her favorite book. Every
time I come.
S2 (40:27):
Over, that's great.
S5 (40:29):
I have to read that book to her. It does
not matter how many times she has read that book
and listened to it, and it really stirs in their
little hearts even at such an early age. God's truth
and just conviction.
S2 (40:41):
That is good.
S3 (40:42):
That's a wonderful testimony. My mother believed that and had
children charmed with it. And then it takes hold. I'm
so glad you've introduced it to her.
S2 (40:53):
I'm glad. I'm glad for that, too. All right, Florida,
I love that fluoride, I love that. All right. So, anyway, uh,
what I want to do is ask you this question. Rosie, uh,
is it possible for me to read it as a child,
then come back as a teenager and then come back
as an adult and see more?
S3 (41:11):
Oh, yeah, I think I think that that all great stories.
That's why we shouldn't under read to children. We read
them too simple a stuff. Yeah. I mean my niece
had had had the all of Tolkien read to her
by the time she was five. We underestimate kids intelligence.
Of course, they don't get the layers and layers, so
the richness of any great book, said George MacDonald. It's
(41:32):
as good at 80 as it is at eight.
S2 (41:34):
I like that.
S3 (41:35):
Or five and 50. So yes. Oh, this is a
different book every decade of your life.
S2 (41:41):
One of my favorite hymns is standing on the Promises
of God. You alluded to the portion. I think it
was despair or despondency where he's got a key and
the key symbolizes the promise of God. But the promise
is not working. Can you unpack that story?
S3 (41:57):
Yeah. Well, he he's just fumbling with it. He can't
find it at first because he's in despair. So when
you're in despair, despair is actually a cardinal sin in
the Catholic Church. So it's interesting you've fallen into hopelessness,
which means you've forgotten your foundation. And that's when he
needs hopeful to remind him of the promises. And he
finds the key. And then he fumbles, but he gets
the door open and he will no longer be attacked
(42:20):
by the wife and of giant despair. He gets out
of despair and back on the way.
S2 (42:26):
I got to believe there's someone listening today. And you
feel like, where is God? You feel like I'm quoting
the word. I'm praying the word. And yet I'm fumbling.
I'm floundering. I'm going through. I want to encourage you
today with what Doctor Rossi de Rossi is saying and
what John Bunyan has said and what the Word of
(42:49):
God says. God is for you. God is with you.
God cares about you. And you might not feel him.
It might seem that he's not there. But we're here
to let you know you're listening to this program by design.
I really believe that this was a divine, a divine appointment.
S3 (43:06):
There are no accidents. It's amazing how we think that
things are incidental. And then they just. They're there for
a reason.
S2 (43:14):
They really are. Hey, I'd love for you to call.
The number is (877) 548-3675. Now, this is funny to me.
As much as I want to serve Jesus as much
as you want to serve him, there are people strategically
placed in our lives to discourage us, to push us
(43:36):
away from that. And and I'm not saying that there
are devils there, demons or all that. I, I man,
I know what my life was like before I came
to Christ. I'm so glad I know Jesus personally, but
I think along the way we will run into obstacles.
How can we deal with Mr. Negative or or Miss
Pliable or Mr. Despondency or Mr. Despair? Take us a
(43:59):
little deeper in that.
S3 (44:00):
I think that's that's the product of diligence. And diligence
means that you get every choice that you make matters
every relationship to technology, to to your job, to to
what you read, to what you watch, to what you.
Those choices all matter. We think that we just emerge
Christians because we our soul got saved when our mind
has to be saved, our entire manner of life has
(44:22):
to be saved. And when we start making those in
the culture is so powerfully seductive. It's everywhere. It's around us.
Almost like a winter coat that's too heavy in the summer.
It's there and you have to resist it. And the
way you resist that is through the Word of God,
through the company of Christians, and through know and through
an absolute consciousness about all the choices that you're making.
(44:45):
I say to my students, everything you do not admit
about yourself or what you do not know will cut
your throat. You cannot have denial about anything. You have
to be conscious of everything you do from morning till night,
until it becomes a habit of life, so that you
can't be wooed away.
S2 (45:01):
Mm. One of the parts that you said you want
to talk about is the river of death. Unpack that
for us.
S3 (45:07):
At the end of the of this version. I don't
have it in the new version, but it'll even be
more understandable. Sure. And he's going through the river of death.
You know, this is for those of you who are older,
who are facing that. Perhaps you're ill. A great darkness
and horror fell upon Christian so that he could not
see before him. Also here, in a great measure, he
lost his senses. He became. When our senses start being
(45:28):
affected by our choices, it's really hard so that he
could neither remember nor orderly talk of any of the
sweet refreshments he had met in the way of the pilgrimage.
You don't remember, you know the God of Abraham, Isaac,
and Moses, but all the words that he spoke still
tended to discover that he had a horror of mind. Hopeful, therefore.
Which is why we need community. We need friends that
(45:48):
are different from us. Have had much ado to keep
his brother's head above water, yet sometimes he would be
quite gone down. Hopeful finally said, I see the gate
and men standing by to receive us. This is the
river of death. It is you, it is you they
wait for. You have been hopeful ever since I knew you.
In other words, they'll wait for you because you're hopeful,
(46:09):
not me. And he says no, they are waiting for
you too. And with that, Christian broke out with a
loud voice. Oh, I see him and he tells me,
when thou passes through the waters, I will be with thee.
And through the rivers they shall not overflow thee.
S2 (46:24):
Never alone, never alone. Amen. That's good. Good news. Hey,
you want a copy of the book Pilgrim's Progress? I'd
love for you to call 8888886444144. That's (888) 644-4144. Or go
to equipped radio.org. Gift of any size. Will get that
(46:44):
book out to you. Appreciate you. Doctor Rossi de Rossi
being with us today. We love you and we thank
God for you. And I'm praying that people will grab
Ahold of this book. I'm Roy Patterson. I'm sitting in
for Chris Brooks. Equipped is a part of the ministry
of Moody Radio Network. I'm Roy, we'll see you soon.
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equip with Chris Brooks! I'm so thrilled that you've joined
us today. Do me a favor strap on your seat
belt as we navigate through the contours of culture, as
always with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But
before we do that, let me remind you, this is
the day that the Lord has made. He is giving
(00:40):
it as a gift so that you and I can
rejoice and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. Today
I want you to help me welcome my good friend
Roy Patterson to the host seat. Roy is a man
of God who has ministered through radio and the pastorate
(01:01):
for decades. He's the host and originator of the Urban
Praise streaming channel, and also host Celebration of Praise and
Music for Sunday here on Moody Radio. Roy, thank you
for leading this edition of equip.
S2 (01:16):
Thank you so much, Chris. Really, really appreciate you. How
God has used you down through the years to challenge
us to think deeper and broader and wider, and certainly
more biblically. Chris Brooks is a tremendous leader, pastor, preacher,
a dedicated husband and father. And so he's in our
prayers as he's going through some challenges and praying that
(01:40):
God will continue to bless him, especially regarding his daughter,
who's facing serious sickness. We just believe that God is able.
God is faithful and God is sufficient. Hey, today we've
got a dear, dear friend in studio, someone that you're
going to love and appreciate. It's Doctor Rosalie de Rossi.
(02:02):
She is an adjunct professor of literature, English, and homiletics
at the Moody Bible Institute, where she taught full time
for more than five decades. She has authored or contributed
to many books, including Unproduced and Unshaken, The Moody Handbook
of Preaching, and the Moody Classics series. She earned an
(02:22):
Ma in English from Northeastern Illinois University, an M.Div. from
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in language literacy
and rhetoric from the University of Illinois at Chicago. In
addition to teaching, she regularly appears on Moody Broadcasting Network
and she's a guest. She's a co-host. She speaks at conferences, seminars.
(02:46):
She lives on the North Side of Chicago. Doctor rosy
de rosé. How are you?
S3 (02:51):
I'm. I'm great. It's a pleasure to be here. Especially
with you, Roy.
S2 (02:55):
Well, I've got to do a disclaimer. I actually had
rosy as a teacher, and she taught me, uh, during
1978 to 81, my major was broadcasting. And so I
took her for a creative writing. And I took you
for a number of other things as well. So to
have a friend like you in studio is just a joy.
(03:17):
Thank you for being here.
S3 (03:18):
Well, thank you for having me.
S2 (03:20):
Now, I learned a lot about writing. I learned a
lot about attacking the subject and bringing thoughts into creative, creative, framing, etc. um,
but one of the things that I love the most
was how you assigned us to read, read, read, write, write, write.
And one of your favorite books is Pilgrim's Progress. Is
(03:41):
that right?
S3 (03:41):
It is. I was absolutely raised on the book. My
mother loved it. She as a missionary woman, she taught
it to small children like three and four, and they
would beg for the lesson if they couldn't get there.
And she had three D projects for them to make
with it. I don't know how many times I had
that book read to me before I could read myself.
And then it has been a staple of my life
(04:03):
all my life.
S2 (04:04):
I got to believe there's a number of people who
are listening to us right now that know this book,
that love this book, haven't heard about this book in
a long time, and there will be others who have never,
ever heard of it before. And so I want us
to to dive deep into it. Tell me about the author.
S3 (04:19):
Okay. John Bunyan's dates are 1628 to 1688. Okay. He
was in a very, um, upsetting, I mean, a very
volatile time in history. So, Charles, one came in, he
was imprisoned for 12 years. He probably because he refused
to to submit to the way they wanted him to
preach and the rules around it. And he preached extemporaneously.
(04:42):
So they put him in jail. He came out at
the six year period, wouldn't, wouldn't submit, and went back
into jail. It's thought that he probably started Pilgrim's Progress
in the first half of his jail sentence, and finished
it later. It was published around 1678. He was born
in Elstow, England. Okay. I have visited his birthplace, the
church where he was baptized, and then the town where
(05:05):
there's a huge statue erected in his honor. Bedford. And
there there's a wonderful Pilgrim's Progress museum with stained glass
windows that represent scenes in Pilgrim's Progress. So he and
he never had a lot of education. He got his
education by listening to sermons, talking to people more educated
than himself, and knowing the Bible. And he knew the
Bible so profoundly that he he had the Bible and
(05:28):
Foxe's Book of Martyrs with him in jail. But it's
almost like his simple country English became side by side
with the Bible. And when he writes, Warren Wiersbe has
an annotated version a long time ago out of print,
but where he shows you how many scripture references just
run through the entire entire book. He was married twice
(05:50):
and had seven children. So that's and he was in
the I think he went into the had a military stint,
but for the most part he remained within just a
few miles of home most of his life and became
a tinker after he came out of the army. And
it just goes to show that you don't have to
go traveling around the world to know people. Human nature.
(06:13):
It's a tremendous book of psychology as well as theology.
And one of the things I would say it's often
seen as a devotional classic, which is a misnomer. Okay.
The book was, uh, as as revolutionary, as a political tract,
as some people say, Marx's Das Kapital, because it claimed
theodicy and the vindication of divine goodness and providence and
(06:36):
view of the existence of evil, which would have been
anathema at the time. And this is a rigorous book.
This is a book that preaches against laziness and sloth. Okay.
It talks about persistence and continuance and defiance of laziness
and continuing on through the Christian life. And it does not.
This is not, as one of my teachers who taught
(06:56):
it to me said, this is not a flight on
United Airlines. This is a pilgrimage.
S2 (07:03):
So there's you're climbing rough terrain. You're going through some
valleys and hopefully over some mountains as well. Hey, I
want to give you a chance to call and talk
to a doctor. Rose. Rose. Rose. The number is 87754836758775483675.
Love to hear from you. If you've heard of Pilgrim's Progress,
(07:26):
I'd also love to hear from you. If you're challenged
by what doctor Rose De Rosa is talking about. There's
a lot in this book and we're going to dive
into it. One of the things that jumps out to
me about John Bunyan is courage. When you said that
he was in prison for preaching the way he preached,
I want you to dig some more into that, please.
S3 (07:47):
I mean, he just he he had a singular devotion
to what he believed was truth. Yeah. And he wasn't
going to let the political systems of the day intimidate him.
But what's so interesting about that? And I love this.
He was a person of many, many fears. If you
read John, his spiritual autobiography, which is called Grace abounding
(08:08):
to the least of. To the most of sinners. It
reads like a roller coaster ride. He doesn't feel saved.
He feels he. He gets up from his. He doesn't feel.
He just goes like this. Like this. And if you
look at the book, there are three real standout characters
in the book because Bunyan believed in community. He did
not believe we would get through this pilgrimage of life
(08:29):
without it. And it's absolutely true. So he was given
faithful after his conversion, after the house, beautiful in the
valley of humiliation. And then faithful dies in Vanity Fair.
Because at the hands of, you know, it's the lust
of the flesh and the in the eyes and.
S2 (08:47):
Pride.
S3 (08:47):
And pride of life. And he dies there, and Christian
goes on. But faithful, faithful sins are more the lust
of the flesh, which is why it's so wonderful that
he refuses it even though he dies a martyr's death.
And and Christians are not his are fear and fear.
And he. But he keeps going, you know, he falls
(09:09):
asleep sometimes and sleep in Scripture and in Pilgrim's Progress
is always a problem. If you fall asleep when you're
not supposed to, you lose your way. Yeah, he loses
his role, which is the proof of his conversion, you know,
at the at the beginning and has to go back
for it. And he he keeps and then he, he
takes the easy way and gets to giant despair, which
(09:29):
we can talk about later. But he is afraid. And
the passage at the end of the book about the
river of death. This is beautiful, and I really want
to encourage the reading of this book that we're talking
about today by retold by James Thomas, because it puts
it in language that anybody can understand. I don't think
(09:51):
God is going to give us a gold star because
we read The Pilgrim's Progress. I mean, my mother had
an 1898 version illustrated by Doré, which I just gave
away to a very good student. But, you know, and
I've read it in the original. But if you if
you're afraid of it, I've always said to people before,
read the children's version. Read the version by by Tom.
(10:12):
It's very readable. But some we imagine that we'll just
go into death and just lyrically drift away, you know,
quoting scripture. But the the truth is, some people go
to death and become terrified. And when he goes through
the river of death, he almost drowns. But the companion
he's given is hopeful. Hopeful is an optimist. He's a
kind of a happy person. He can. He can pull
(10:34):
him up. He can remind him of the promises of God.
But that River of death scene where he almost goes under.
I remember Larry Crabb saying that his father, who had
been a very strong Christian, got to death. And it
was really tough. And I remember my father, who was
very strong, saying, I'm not afraid of death, but I'm
afraid of dying.
S2 (10:51):
I've heard that before.
S3 (10:52):
Promise that that process. Yeah. And it is the most
wonderful look at it. I have to say, I think
of Pilgrim's Progress every week of my life. Every week,
Every week. Wow. Specific passages. Yeah.
S2 (11:06):
Mm. Well, I love that. Hey, here's the number to call.
It's 87754836758775483675. Love to hear from you. And, uh, we're
interacting with my good friend, Doctor Rosie de rosé. And
it's an amazing opportunity for us to grow in grace
(11:26):
and knowledge. As you probably have surmised, uh, we're talking
about allegory, and I want her to dig into that
a little bit more as well. How God has used
this allegory to impact millions of Christians around the world.
You've heard of this book. You've enjoyed this book. You
want to know more about the book? Give me a
call right now. 87754836758775483675. Rosie would love to hear from you.
(11:56):
I'd love to hear from you as well. I'm Roy Patterson,
sitting in for Chris Brooks. You're listening to equipped.
S1 (12:17):
Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan is one of the best
selling books of all time. It traces Bunyan's own spiritual
journey through the character of Christian. I want to send
you Pilgrim's Progress in today's English, a modern translation that
faithfully preserved Bunyan's powerful message. Follow Christian on his journey
to the Celestial City and discover timeless wisdom for your
(12:40):
own spiritual walk. Request your copy when you give a
gift of any amount to equip, simply call 888644 4144
or visit Equip Radio Org.
S2 (12:56):
Welcome back to equipped I'm Roy Patterson. Usually you hear
Chris Brooks here He's taking some time away. Love, love,
love him. Praying for him. And we just believe that
God is God and he has the final say. Our
guest today is Rosie de Rossi. We're talking about Pilgrim's
Progress and what an incredible book. It has served the
body of Christ so well. I am impressed with the
(13:18):
fact that this man, he's in prison for his faith.
And they said, you're going to preach the way we
want you to preach. You you submit the information, we
approve it. And don't go off script. We'll tell you
what to. And he decides I'm going to preach what
I want. I'm going to preach the gospel. As a
result of that, he's incarcerated. And while he's incarcerated, Rosie
(13:40):
had really two choices, two things he could have done.
He could have sat there and sulked, or he could
have sat there and served God. He'd served by writing,
and that pen impacted the world. So talk about allegory,
will you?
S3 (13:54):
Yeah. Allegory defined is a story, a play, a poem,
a picture, or other work in which the characters and
events represent particular qualities or ideas. Christian. Faithful. Hopeful. Pliable. Obstinate. See,
they represent the qualities that they are. Sure, it's kind
of fallen off now as a genre, but at the
(14:16):
time this was one of the first. It's not a novel,
but it's the first kind of fictional account. It would
have not have been received well if it hadn't been
in this form, but the deep spiritual quality of it
helped it to be become a great Puritan classic.
S2 (14:31):
One of the things I love about it is that
God will use people to do things that haven't been
done so that he can reach people that haven't been reached,
and so for him to do it the way he's
done it in a situation that is really dark and
dismal is amazing to me. And I also want to add,
from a creative writing perspective, you know, I took you
(14:52):
for that class hoping to still get an A, but, uh, anyway, uh,
from a creative writing standpoint, I might not receive it
as well. If someone says, okay, be more diligent, don't
be slothful, be more committed. But using allegory has an impact.
S3 (15:09):
Oh, and that's the great power of fiction, period. Yeah,
but this at the time was that it's indirect. You know,
if you you can preach a message about ten ways
to stay pure, or you can tell a great story
about how somebody didn't write, and it's at a distance
from you. And so you can see it. Sure. And
so here is the embodiment of all and it's also
(15:30):
a great theological Puritan classic. I mean, this is heavy theology.
This is written so that your heart would ache. This
is written to convict you. It's written to for so
many purposes. And one of the interesting things it's been
translated into over 200 languages, including Fijian, Cree, Esperanto and
Pitman shorthand. I mean, it goes on and on from there.
(15:53):
It's just absolutely amazing. So, uh. Yeah, This is this
is this is something you need to read. It's really
easy to walk away from it and think, this is
long gone. I, I think of the book every week
of my life. I think of passages I think of,
especially the the part when he meets Apollyon. He comes
(16:14):
out of the house beautiful, where purity, prudence and Charity
have have quizzed him about his faith. Really hard. These
women have gone to town on him. Why did you
leave your wife and children behind? Why are you here?
What have you been through? It's sort of like a testimony,
the spoken testimony, to make sure you know where you
are and that you're. You're standing in position of Christ.
(16:37):
And then he goes out and he meets Apollyon. And
Napoleon is a kind of a Satanic character who immediately says,
I'm going to take you back from the clutches of,
you know, your Redeemer. And Christian says, oh, you destroyer.
I like his service. I like his wages. I like
his servants. I like his government. I am his servant,
and I will follow him. And Napoleon says, when you've
(16:59):
cooled off a little, consider what lies ahead of you.
His servants come to an ill end because they cross me.
Many of them die, and he doesn't seem to rescue them,
while I often deliver my own. Christian says his children
do not expect present deliverance, for they will have it
when their prince comes. The glory of the angels. But
you've been unfaithful to him, says Apollo. And you know
(17:19):
how the devil comes to us.
S2 (17:21):
And says.
S3 (17:21):
Look how awful you've done. Look, you're a failure. You
have become discouraged, gotten off the way, lost your scroll.
You were afraid of the lions at the house. Beautiful.
Tempted to go back. You are sometimes proud. Christian says
all this is true. And much more that you have
not said. But the prince whom I serve and honor
is merciful and ready to forgive. So I think of
(17:43):
passages like that, and I think of how honestly, he's
a wuss sometimes. He is so scared he gets off
the path, giant despair captures him, and giant despair has
a wife that's worse than giant despair. She's a piece
of work, and they have him imprisoned with hopeful in
a jail cell. Sure. And there's Christian falling into what
(18:04):
we call today. Suicidal ideation. You know, just absolute despair.
One of the things that Bunyan. Bunyan had despair. He
had fear. And it takes hopeful to remind him of
the key. The prompt with the key of promises, and Christian,
as you were reminding me, tries to open the door, can't,
and then gets it. He remembers the promises of Christ,
(18:24):
unlocks the door, and he's out on his way.
S2 (18:28):
I'm fascinated by the fact that that this book hits everything.
Everything that I can see in the Christian life, whether
it's in the beginning where he deals with pliable and obstinate.
Now again, we're talking allegory. I mean, I've sat in
the room with with despair. I've been in despair before.
I've sat in the room with shame. I've sat in
(18:49):
the room with guilt. I've sat in the room with
pride and come on you guys, you've you've done the
same thing. And if you could really deal with these
issues in ways that lead you to victory, that leads
you to peace. Um, I think you would do that.
And so this book deals with the different areas of
our lives, the different things we'll meet on this Christian
(19:11):
journey to help us grow in grace and knowledge. So
let me give you guys some good news. Would you
like a copy of this book? We'd love for you
to have a copy. All you've got to do is
go to equipped radio.org that's equipped radio.org, and a donation
of any size will cause you to get this book.
(19:32):
It will bless us. It will keep Chris Brooks and
equipped on the air. We would love for you to
have a copy. So in giving you get as well.
And it's a book that will bless your life. Uh,
again go to equipped. Radio equipped. G. And, um. You'll
be super glad that you did. Our guest today is
(19:54):
Rosie Day. Rosie. And she's one of my favorite literature scholars.
And she knows the Bible as well. So do you
have a favorite part of the book and tell us
how has that part of the book impacted you?
S3 (20:07):
Polly Ann it definitely. But as I said, for me,
I'm so impressed with the fact that this is a man.
And I'll tell you another favorite to that that was afraid.
I mean, so, so many times light Christian fiction is
is just too chirpy. It's just it's all wrapped up.
(20:27):
It's it's wishful thinking. It's not the real deal. This
is the real deal. This is who I am. This
is who he is. One of the things that's very
impressive is that when he he leaves, he runs out
of the city of destruction, almost immediately falls into the
slough of Despond. One of the things that Bunyan acknowledges
is depression, absolute depression. And he is helped by help
(20:49):
and evangelist to get out of it. And the reason
he's affected is because pliable. If you think of the
word pliable, pliable means to flexible. And there are a
lot of pairings in this book pliable and obstinate. Those
two things that are opposite. But they're both bad for us. Well,
then he finally gets to the house of the interpreter,
and everybody needs to look at the house of the interpreter.
(21:10):
The house of interpreter. He learns all its theology before
his conversion experience, which is marvelous. Yeah, that's that's a
very different kind of thing. We usually think you get
saved and then you learn your theology, which can happen.
He learns his theology. There are seven scenes he learns
about grace. Five of them are teaching scenes. Two of
them are cautionary. And he's warned. There's a man in
(21:33):
an iron cage. This man in the iron cage failed
to make a commitment. He did something. We don't know
if he believes in eternal security or not. I mean,
we you can't totally tell. But the man in the
iron cage went so far into unbelief and bad behavior
that he could no longer confess his sin. Wow. And
it's a cautionary tale. Yeah. Don't go so far that
(21:53):
you do that. One of the things I love is
that he has a scene where he. The water Grace
seems to be. Somebody keeps trying to throw water on
Grace in his life in one of those scenes. And
the whole time, Jesus is secretly feeding the fire with
a little bit of oil, as much as the water
of discouragement comes to try to shut out the fire
(22:15):
of grace, the oil feeds it. And I think of that.
I think, okay, this is a time when the water
is coming over me and Christ is keeping me. He
keeps me. He keeps me. He keeps Christian. As long
as Christian remains absolutely faithful to what he knows.
S2 (22:34):
Faithfulness is so, so important. And I would submit that
we have. Please don't let me get in trouble for this. Um,
we have submitted to a generation that Jesus is a
Santa Claus. He's a vending machine, and he will give
you what you want when you want it, and your
life will be easy. You'll walk down the yellow brick
(22:56):
road and just have cupcakes every day. When in reality
we have to be diligent. We have to be faithful.
There will be suffering, there will be discouraging moments. And
I think this book points to that. And I love
the title Pilgrim's Progress.
S3 (23:11):
Progress. Yeah. No, I think that in a way, life
is harder today than it's ever been psychologically and emotionally.
But we have so many anesthetics and I'm going to
say this I would never do a program without saying this.
The the cell phone is one of the greatest anesthetics
(23:31):
of our feeling and our life that we it's become
an addiction. And instead of working through that terrible moment
that's ahead of us and sitting with it in a
way we fall asleep by, by, by anesthetizing our pain,
and instead of directly Irectly countering it with the presence
of Christ.
S2 (23:48):
That makes sense to me. Andre Crouch once said, if
I never had a problem, I wouldn't know that God
could solve them. I wouldn't know what faith in His
Word could do. Through it all, I've learned to trust
in Jesus. And so this kind of book speaks to
the reality of the Christian life and causes us to
go deeper. Yes, it causes us to go further. And
so on one hand, he talks about diligence. On the
(24:11):
other hand he talks about sloth, which is not a
word we use a lot today.
S3 (24:15):
It's not laziness because sometimes we need to be lazy.
But sloth is not wanting the best. It's taking the
middle road. It's being pliable. It's being obstinate, being talkative.
There's a character there, talkative. All he does is blather
and faithful is taken in by him. And Christian says,
can you tell he's not saying anything right? And faithful goes, oh,
(24:37):
I didn't notice. He says, let that guy go. He
doesn't mean a thing. He came over the wall. He
doesn't want anything real. He doesn't want to go through.
He wants to go around. And so I think I
think we're in a tremendous age of sloth. My students
talk about it a lot where you don't want the
best anymore. You've gotten used to this kind of tepid,
(24:58):
low simmer life that never has any highs. We need enchantment.
Enchantment comes through. Facing. I don't mean by that magic,
I mean enchantment. We need to feel delighted with Christ,
to know him in a way that keeps us obedient.
And we've got a whole generation scrambling to try to
figure that out.
S2 (25:16):
And I think the onus is on us. Those that
do know ought to teach and mentor and inspire, and
I believe that God can use us to do that.
Me and you. Us to do that. We've got Doctor
Rosie De Rossi in studio with us today. Tremendous woman
of God. Um, she's committed to this generation. She doesn't
(25:38):
just speak from a posture of judgmentalism. She has been
in the classroom, has mentored, has encouraged and we appreciate
her being with us and sharing her heart. Hey, I'm
Roy Patterson, I'm sitting in for Chris Brooks today. Thank
you so much for being with us. Go to Equip radio.
Equip radio give a gift of any size and we
(25:59):
will get this book out to you. Stick around. We'll
be back after this. Welcome back to equipped. I'm Roy
(26:20):
Patterson sitting in for Chris Brooks. Thanks so much for
hanging out with me. You guys are simply amazing. We
have a book called Pilgrim's Progress. I'm talking with Rosie
De Rossi about it. And you love this program. You
love Chris Brooks. You have been engaging with him for
a while now, and we certainly appreciate that. The content
(26:41):
that we bring you day in and day out, will.
It speaks to not only the heart, the emotions, but
it speaks to the mind. What do we need to
do to be relevant in this age? We certainly don't
hate anybody. We love everybody, but we do want to
speak the truth in love and equipped is all about that.
So thank you for your generosity. Thank you for giving.
(27:04):
Thank you for sharing. We want to put this book
in your hand. A gift of any size will help
us to do just that. We've heard from some people, Jake,
all the way from Tennessee as, uh, decided to stand
with us. Also Arthur from Cleveland. Thank you so much.
Jay from Chicago. Paula from Virginia. Uh, let's see who
(27:27):
we've got here. Uh, we've got Ann from Franklin, Tennessee.
Kevin from where is that? Dundee, Ohio. Uh, Lori from Moscow, Idaho. Well,
it could be Moscow, Russia. It could be, I don't know,
you know, worldwide.
S3 (27:46):
I went through Moscow, Idaho.
S2 (27:47):
Moscow, Idaho. Okay. Uh, comrade. Amen. And then we've got epiphania.
And I'm sure I jacked that name up. Pray for me, sister.
But she's she's, uh, giving from Florida. Hey, all these
folks are giving, and we want you to be a
part of it as well. Uh, all you have to
do is go to equipped radio.org. That's equipped radio. Let
(28:09):
me thank you in advance for standing with us as
we boldly proclaim the truth. In studio with me is
Rosa De Rosa, one of my favorite prophets? When I
was a student here at Moody Bible Institute, she helped
to shape me and to encourage me, to prod me.
And I appreciate her. I owe her a great debt.
(28:29):
You've got something you want to share with us?
S3 (28:31):
Yeah. One thing I forgot to say, Biographically was that
he drew crowds by the end of his life of
1200 people. At 7 a.m. in the morning. Wow. Now,
I'd like to see somebody else that did that besides
Spurgeon in his conversion. He said when he was saved,
this is what he said. Now, did my chains fall
off my legs? Indeed. This is Christian. I was loosed
(28:53):
from my affliction and irons. My temptations fled. Now Christ
was all my wisdom, my righteousness, my sanctification, and my redemption. Nevertheless,
all that being true Christians still struggled with fear on
his trip. And you know the devil knows exactly who
to put in our way. So in one section, he
puts in two characters. There are often paired characters, timorous
(29:17):
and mistrust. That speaks a lot to me. You know,
somebody who would, who is timid, can't make a stand,
and someone who is mistrustful. Well, this affected Christian, especially
since he had left his role back at the arbor
where he had fallen asleep inappropriately. Sure and timorous keeps saying,
the further we go, the more danger we meet. And
timorous says, yeah, and there are a couple lions because
(29:39):
there are lions by the house. Beautiful. Christian says, you
make me afraid. But whither shall I flee to be
safe if I go back to my own country that's
prepared for fire and brimstone, I'll perish there. If I
can get to the Celestial City, I'm sure to be
in safety there. So to go back is nothing but death.
To go forward is fear of death and life everlasting.
(30:00):
Beyond it. I'm going to go forward.
S2 (30:02):
Wow.
S3 (30:02):
See, this is persistence. This is diligence. This is not
being slothful. So mistrust and timorous ran down the hill
and he went on his way. And he felt in
his bosom for his role that he might read it,
his instructions. And it was gone. So he remembered that
he had slept. And he goes back and he comes
to the arbor, and he's very, very embarrassed. And there
(30:24):
he sat a while and wept. But at last Providence
would have it looked sorrowfully down the settle. And there
he saw his role. And it shows you how when
we go forward, the Lord gives us what we need.
It's amazing how he restores to us the things that
we have let go. His mercy is always greater than
his judgment when we are persisting in obedience. And who
(30:46):
can tell how joyful he was? Because it was the
assurance of his life. And that's the Word of God
and acceptance as the desired haven. So he gave thanks
to God, and he nimbly ran up the rest of
the hill.
S2 (31:01):
Amen.
S3 (31:02):
And where he'll see the lions. But he clings to Christ,
walks through them. The lions cannot touch him, because he's
got his his power in Jesus. And there he is rested,
and he is given instruction by charity, prudence and piety.
S2 (31:16):
Mhm. Well, there's a scripture that says I shall live
and not die.
S3 (31:19):
Die.
S2 (31:20):
And I think that is so important. It's like we
need more grit.
S3 (31:26):
We need much more grit.
S2 (31:27):
Do we we do. We need we need more grit.
This is not for the faint of heart. Especially if
you want God to take you further and take you deeper. Okay.
So we talked about sloth. We talked a little bit
about persistence and diligence. Tell me some other characters that
we encounter in Pilgrim's Progress.
S3 (31:48):
Well, we as I said, we encountered talkative. We encountered pliable.
We encounter helpful who is who is one of the
ones that helps him out of the slough of Despond. Sure,
we encounter a character that's very interesting to me and
very comforting. And his name is little Faith. And little
faith is a Christian, but his faith is not very strong.
S2 (32:08):
Interesting.
S3 (32:09):
And and yet the mercy of God comes through. And
when one of the characters, I think it might be
helpful or one of them is tempted to kind of
doubt him. The other character says, no. He says, the
littlest bit of faith you show, you go on with
what you've got. And I love that.
S2 (32:28):
I do too.
S3 (32:28):
I just love that. And I remember my, my mother
saying when she went to the mission field during World
War two with nothing out by boat, and they walked
around to listen to the language, she said. I thought
I had been forsaken by God. 42 years later, they retired.
Isn't that something that that it's that you put one
(32:49):
one foot in front of the other, and we cannot
become identified with our weakest areas? Isn't it interesting that
there's mistrust and timorous and obstinate and pliable? Sure. That's
like getting in. That's like becoming identified with the mental
health issue you have or the oppression that you have. Sure, sure.
It's the first thing you say about yourself. Instead, Christian says,
(33:12):
I am identified with Christ. Amen. Who takes me through?
I've done much worse than you can ever imagine. But
I refuse to surrender to the tempter who tells me
you are this because this is so painful to you.
S2 (33:26):
Good stuff. Really, really good stuff. I want you to
call right now and talk to Rosie. Um, here's the number. 87754836758775483675.
Love for you to call us. When I think of
this book and as you share it, I think of
(33:49):
people who hear voices. I'm one of them. And when
I say that, I do hear the voice of pliable.
I do hear the the voice of of sloth. I
do hear voices that are saying, you can't make it,
you can't do it. And every now and then there
will be people who will come along and will say
out loud to me, um, you are doing too much.
You can't go any further. You should be happy where
(34:11):
you're at. You should calm down. You should be mediocre
like me. Why are you going to these places? And
to have this kind of resource in my hand. In
your hand? It makes a difference. So what I'd like
for you to do is give us a call. Right now,
the number is (877) 548-3675. If you go to equipped radios
(34:33):
and make a donation of any size, whatever the size
might be. And thank you so much for those who
have given. We'll send you this book directly out. We'll
send it directly out to you and you will enjoy it.
All right, so, Rosie, uh, how about you? Have you
heard these voices before?
S3 (34:47):
Oh my goodness. And, you know, um, I am a
woman of a certain age. I'm in my 70s. Wow.
And aging is not for cowards.
S2 (34:57):
Okay.
S3 (34:58):
And it's not something you can predict. And I remember
when my parents were in their. They lived to be.
My mother was 98. My father was 90. But I
remember in the last ten years or 15 years of
their lives, they were always going to funerals or they
were always visiting the sick. And I'm coming into that
stage where, you know, I have friends that have died.
But I've also coming into that stage of fearfulness over what?
(35:21):
The future. I'm a single woman. Fearfulness over what the
future holds. Sure. What? What are we going? What am
I going to do? What have I what? And those
voices come into your head. They do. I sometimes lose
sleep at night. You know, you're you're tempted to avoid
them in certain ways or they come around you. And
I'm not kidding when I say I think of his
(35:44):
planting his foot before Apollyon and saying, I am much
worse than you could ever tell me. But my position
is in Christ, who has promised me the Prince of
Peace is with me, and you cannot touch me. And
one of the things that he learns in the interpreter's
House is that there is a tremendous fight for him
(36:05):
getting into the Celestial City. He is injured. We are
not going to remain an injured by the forces in
this world. They do affect us. We are not spared anything.
The I often say to people, we are not spared
any kind of suffering, otherwise we wouldn't have these horrendous
stories where whole families die or terrible illnesses come along,
or children are ill, or you lose your job unfairly,
(36:28):
or this or that or the other. The only difference
that it makes is that Christ is with us. There
is meaning and this is a good story. I'm not esoteric.
I'm down to earth. This is a good story.
S2 (36:41):
It is a good story. The Bible says it rains
on the just and on the unjust. And the more
we do hear stories about people that are going through trials,
tragedies and even situations that seem unbearable the more we realize,
wait a minute. If they can make it, I can
make it too. And I love the fact that in
many ways this is like a journal. I don't want
(37:03):
to use the word diary, but it is like a journal.
And just saying, hey, I've seen this, I've heard that.
And yet as a Christian, I'm moving forward. And so
maybe today, maybe today you're hearing some of these voices
that are intimidating, that are daunting. I'm here to let
you know, by God's grace, you can make it. You
are going to make it. Please give us a call
(37:25):
(877) 548-3675 75. I'm Roy, sitting in for Chris. This is equipped.
S1 (37:34):
For centuries, Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan has helped Christians
navigate life's spiritual struggles. However, the 17th century English can
be challenging for modern readers. That's why I'd like to
sing you Pilgrim's Progress in today's English. Join Christian's journey
as he confronts temptations, doubts and challenges that reflect our
(37:55):
own spiritual battles. Request your copy when you give to support. Equip.
888644 4144 or visit equip radio org.
S2 (38:12):
Welcome back to equipped with Chris Brooks I'm Roy patterson
I'm here with Rosie de Rossi. We're talking about the
wonderful book Pilgrim's Progress. Hey, let's go to the phones.
We've got Zoraida from Cleveland, Ohio. Zoraida, please go ahead
with your question or comment.
S4 (38:28):
Okay, my question is if this is an easy book
to read, I have mere Christianity from C.S. Lewis that
although the story is very helpful and very informative, I
wasn't able to read this book, you know? Um, to me,
(38:49):
it's not it's not told into a story. Oh, it
doesn't grab my attention. It's hard.
S3 (38:56):
Mere Christianity is not a story. It's what we call
a work of apologetics. And it's probably best learned in
a classroom. I used to teach it. No, there's no
comparison between Pilgrim's Progress and especially not the version that's
available by, uh, the one that is being advertised today,
that it's retold by James Thomas. It is a story.
You will be able to read it, you will be
(39:18):
drawn in. The other one is much more the truth
of apologetics, a defense of faith. So you can't compare
the two. So be heartened by that and try Pilgrim's Progress.
S2 (39:28):
You're going to enjoy it, Zoraida. Appreciate you. Let's go. Buckeyes! Okay. Um, I'm.
I'm grateful for for what you brought us today. Because
we live in a world that needs encouragement. We we
need to know that God is God. God is with
us even when it feels like God is not there.
(39:50):
That's I think that's a challenge for many, many people.
Would you agree with that?
S3 (39:53):
This is about the this. Absolutely. This is about the
presence of God even when you don't feel it. This
is the showing you. One man's journey where God is
always at his elbow and he he pulls through even
through the river of death. Yes.
S2 (40:10):
Yeah. We'll come back to that river in just a
little while. Let's go to line three. Michelle from Boca Raton, Florida.
Go ahead. Michelle, please.
S5 (40:18):
Well, I just wanted to say that I had bought
that book for my granddaughter, and she's going to be
four years old, and that is her favorite book. Every
time I come.
S2 (40:27):
Over, that's great.
S5 (40:29):
I have to read that book to her. It does
not matter how many times she has read that book
and listened to it, and it really stirs in their
little hearts even at such an early age. God's truth
and just conviction.
S2 (40:41):
That is good.
S3 (40:42):
That's a wonderful testimony. My mother believed that and had
children charmed with it. And then it takes hold. I'm
so glad you've introduced it to her.
S2 (40:53):
I'm glad. I'm glad for that, too. All right, Florida,
I love that fluoride, I love that. All right. So, anyway, uh,
what I want to do is ask you this question. Rosie, uh,
is it possible for me to read it as a child,
then come back as a teenager and then come back
as an adult and see more?
S3 (41:11):
Oh, yeah, I think I think that that all great stories.
That's why we shouldn't under read to children. We read
them too simple a stuff. Yeah. I mean my niece
had had had the all of Tolkien read to her
by the time she was five. We underestimate kids intelligence.
Of course, they don't get the layers and layers, so
the richness of any great book, said George MacDonald. It's
(41:32):
as good at 80 as it is at eight.
S2 (41:34):
I like that.
S3 (41:35):
Or five and 50. So yes. Oh, this is a
different book every decade of your life.
S2 (41:41):
One of my favorite hymns is standing on the Promises
of God. You alluded to the portion. I think it
was despair or despondency where he's got a key and
the key symbolizes the promise of God. But the promise
is not working. Can you unpack that story?
S3 (41:57):
Yeah. Well, he he's just fumbling with it. He can't
find it at first because he's in despair. So when
you're in despair, despair is actually a cardinal sin in
the Catholic Church. So it's interesting you've fallen into hopelessness,
which means you've forgotten your foundation. And that's when he
needs hopeful to remind him of the promises. And he
finds the key. And then he fumbles, but he gets
the door open and he will no longer be attacked
(42:20):
by the wife and of giant despair. He gets out
of despair and back on the way.
S2 (42:26):
I got to believe there's someone listening today. And you
feel like, where is God? You feel like I'm quoting
the word. I'm praying the word. And yet I'm fumbling.
I'm floundering. I'm going through. I want to encourage you
today with what Doctor Rossi de Rossi is saying and
what John Bunyan has said and what the Word of
(42:49):
God says. God is for you. God is with you.
God cares about you. And you might not feel him.
It might seem that he's not there. But we're here
to let you know you're listening to this program by design.
I really believe that this was a divine, a divine appointment.
S3 (43:06):
There are no accidents. It's amazing how we think that
things are incidental. And then they just. They're there for
a reason.
S2 (43:14):
They really are. Hey, I'd love for you to call.
The number is (877) 548-3675. Now, this is funny to me.
As much as I want to serve Jesus as much
as you want to serve him, there are people strategically
placed in our lives to discourage us, to push us
(43:36):
away from that. And and I'm not saying that there
are devils there, demons or all that. I, I man,
I know what my life was like before I came
to Christ. I'm so glad I know Jesus personally, but
I think along the way we will run into obstacles.
How can we deal with Mr. Negative or or Miss
Pliable or Mr. Despondency or Mr. Despair? Take us a
(43:59):
little deeper in that.
S3 (44:00):
I think that's that's the product of diligence. And diligence
means that you get every choice that you make matters
every relationship to technology, to to your job, to to
what you read, to what you watch, to what you.
Those choices all matter. We think that we just emerge
Christians because we our soul got saved when our mind
has to be saved, our entire manner of life has
(44:22):
to be saved. And when we start making those in
the culture is so powerfully seductive. It's everywhere. It's around us.
Almost like a winter coat that's too heavy in the summer.
It's there and you have to resist it. And the
way you resist that is through the Word of God,
through the company of Christians, and through know and through
an absolute consciousness about all the choices that you're making.
(44:45):
I say to my students, everything you do not admit
about yourself or what you do not know will cut
your throat. You cannot have denial about anything. You have
to be conscious of everything you do from morning till night,
until it becomes a habit of life, so that you
can't be wooed away.
S2 (45:01):
Mm. One of the parts that you said you want
to talk about is the river of death. Unpack that
for us.
S3 (45:07):
At the end of the of this version. I don't
have it in the new version, but it'll even be
more understandable. Sure. And he's going through the river of death.
You know, this is for those of you who are older,
who are facing that. Perhaps you're ill. A great darkness
and horror fell upon Christian so that he could not
see before him. Also here, in a great measure, he
lost his senses. He became. When our senses start being
(45:28):
affected by our choices, it's really hard so that he
could neither remember nor orderly talk of any of the
sweet refreshments he had met in the way of the pilgrimage.
You don't remember, you know the God of Abraham, Isaac,
and Moses, but all the words that he spoke still
tended to discover that he had a horror of mind. Hopeful, therefore.
Which is why we need community. We need friends that
(45:48):
are different from us. Have had much ado to keep
his brother's head above water, yet sometimes he would be
quite gone down. Hopeful finally said, I see the gate
and men standing by to receive us. This is the
river of death. It is you, it is you they
wait for. You have been hopeful ever since I knew you.
In other words, they'll wait for you because you're hopeful,
(46:09):
not me. And he says no, they are waiting for
you too. And with that, Christian broke out with a
loud voice. Oh, I see him and he tells me,
when thou passes through the waters, I will be with thee.
And through the rivers they shall not overflow thee.
S2 (46:24):
Never alone, never alone. Amen. That's good. Good news. Hey,
you want a copy of the book Pilgrim's Progress? I'd
love for you to call 8888886444144. That's (888) 644-4144. Or go
to equipped radio.org. Gift of any size. Will get that
(46:44):
book out to you. Appreciate you. Doctor Rossi de Rossi
being with us today. We love you and we thank
God for you. And I'm praying that people will grab
Ahold of this book. I'm Roy Patterson. I'm sitting in
for Chris Brooks. Equipped is a part of the ministry
of Moody Radio Network. I'm Roy, we'll see you soon.
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