April 30, 2025 • 47 mins
Have you ever been curious about the unseen world? Coming up on Equipped, guest host Susie Larson and investigative journalist, author, and apologist Lee Strobel provide a thoughtful study of spiritual experiences. In his new book titled, Seeing the Supernatural, Strobel examines facts and testimony to give a balanced understanding of spiritual and paranormal phenomena.
Today's Resource: Seeing the Supernatural
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:19):
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equipped with Chris Brooks! I am so thrilled that you've
joined us today. Why don't you do me a favor?
Strap on your seatbelt. We're going to navigate through the
contours of culture, as always, with the lens of the
biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me
remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made.
He is giving it as a gift so that you
(00:41):
and I can rejoice and be glad in it. So
let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the
Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again
I say, rejoice! I hope you're having a great day.
I'm going to be away from the program today, but
I want you to join me in welcoming Susie Larson
to the hot seat. Now, many of you know Susie.
(01:02):
She's a best selling author, speaker, radio host. She loves
Jesus and most of all loves helping people draw into
a deeper life in Christ. She's also a wife, a mother,
and a grandmother as well. Susie, thank you for hosting
this edition of equip.
S2 (01:21):
Thank you Chris. And boy, we continue to pray for
you and your precious family. So great to be with
you again today. We've got another great show planned for you.
I pray that you tune in prayerfully and humbly. You know,
the Bible tells us that God is a miracle working God,
that he's the same yesterday, today, and forever. That we're
to fix our eyes on what we cannot see because
what we do see is temporary. What we can't see
(01:43):
is eternal. But why are Christians in the West so
leery of talking about the supernatural realm? Why are when
you go to a third world country on a mission trip,
it seems commonplace, but here in the West we're a
little bit more afraid of it. Yet secular culture is
not afraid of it. They're exploring the supernatural realm in movies, entertainment,
and in dangerous ways. What are we to make of
all this? Well, my guest today says most of us
(02:06):
have encountered stories about the supernatural, miraculous healings, unexplained sightings,
near-death experiences, prophetic dreams. But how do we know what's real?
Are these stories just fantasies or even dangerous deceptions? Or
is there something important here for us to understand? I
honestly cannot think of anybody better to explore this topic
than our friend Lee Strobel. Buckle up. You're about to
(02:27):
be amazed. I get to talk with him today about
his new book. It's a new book, but it's already
hit the New York Times list. Seeing the supernatural, investigating angels, demons,
mystical dreams, near-death encounters, and other mysteries of the unseen world.
Let me tell you about him. We'll get him on
the show. Lee Strobel, the former award winning legal editor
of the Chicago Tribune, is a New York Times best
selling author whose books have sold millions of copies worldwide.
(02:51):
He's also renowned investigative journalist and former atheist who served
as teaching pastor at three of America's largest churches. He
and his beautiful wife, Lesley, have been married for over
50 years. They reside in Texas. Their daughter Allison, and
their son Kyle are also authors. Lee, welcome to equipped.
S3 (03:07):
Well thank you Suzy. So great to be with you.
S2 (03:10):
Well, I want our listeners to know today that you're
on the road and you're talking to me from a hotel.
I mean, you could have easily said tied up. I'm
a little busy. Don't have time for you today. But
you made time. So bless you and thank you for that.
S3 (03:23):
Well, I appreciate that we're out in California. My grandson
just had his 12th birthday, so we couldn't miss that.
S2 (03:29):
Oh, way to go. That's about the ultimate assignment. Well,
I'm so grateful for the time.
S3 (03:33):
That's right.
S2 (03:34):
Yeah, well, I gotta say, I love that you don't
ever shrink back from tough topics. And I love even
more that you dive in and you do your homework.
So I want you to talk about. I mean, you're
a busy guy, so talk about the motivation to tackle this.
What can be a controversial topic?
S3 (03:49):
Well, you know, I found out that eight out of
ten Americans believe that there is something beyond what we
can see, touch and put in a test tube. But
so many people get carried away by the paranormal and
some very unbiblical beliefs about the realm beyond what we
can personally experience. And so I thought, you know, I
can use this as a bridge to be able to
(04:10):
talk about what does the Bible say about the world
beyond what we can see and touch and what's corroborated?
What evidence is there that there is a reality in
that realm? And so I delve into all the topics
that you mentioned and, and try to demonstrate that, yes, indeed,
the Bible is telling us the truth when it talks
about things beyond what we see in our everyday life.
S2 (04:34):
Well, you hit the ground running in this book and
the introduction, you tell a story about a pastor who
prayed for his wife at bedtime because she was blind.
Tell us that story.
S3 (04:44):
Yeah. Here's a woman who was blind for over a
dozen years with an incurable condition. She went to a
school for the blind. She learned to read Braille. She
walked with a white cane, and she married a Baptist pastor.
And one night, they were getting ready to go for bed.
She's in bed, and he comes over and he begins
to cry, and he's praying, and he puts his hand
on her shoulder and he begins to pray, Lord, I
(05:05):
know you can heal my wife. I know you can
do it. And I pray that you will do it tonight.
And with that she opened her eyes to perfect vision. Um,
she said later, she said, you know, I was blind
when my husband prayed for me. And then I opened
my eyes, I could see. It's a miracle. And indeed
it was. And her eyesight now has remained for over
47 years. And so this is a case that was
(05:26):
researched by four medical researchers. It was documented medically and
published in a peer reviewed medical journal. So that's the
kind of cases I was looking for, cases that are documented,
cases that, uh, are where we have the evidence before us.
And that's a good example of that.
S2 (05:42):
You know, it's so sad that there's been a sensationalism
and a showmanship around this. Uh, you know, I'm an introvert.
I've walked the long road of some health challenges. And
when God heals me completely, I actually want it to
be in a more quiet, private way. I don't want
to be on a stage where someone's yelling at me
just because it's not my style. You know what I'm saying? But.
(06:02):
And you know this, you know this. My son received
a medical miracle. He had a severe herniation in his
back from a football injury at 17 years old. And
doctors said it was the worst herniation that they'd ever seen.
It exploded on three sets of nerves in his spine.
And they said that he had 17 years old, was
about to lose control of his bowels, and would be
partially disabled for life. And we tried everything. And long
(06:26):
story short, he was medically, miraculously healed by a student
who prayed for him at youth group one night, to
the point where the next day he was running with
the football team again. Miracle like absolute. Even doctors are
like I have no explanation. Zero. And it does happen.
We don't understand his ways. You and I have talked
about this before in your book case for miracles, because
(06:47):
I'm so interested in this topic. One thing I asked
you back then I'd love to expound on now is
I said, did you notice a common denominator among those
who receive miracles? And you said their stories were as
different and their backstories, their backgrounds were as different as
could be. But the common denominator in all of them
is they maintained a hopeful, humble expectancy See that really
(07:08):
spoke to me. Say more, if you would, about that.
S3 (07:11):
Yeah. I think our willingness to be open to God
and to seek his healing, even if he doesn't do
exactly what we want him to do when when we
want him to do it. You know, God says he
will heal us, whether it's in this world or the
world to come. It's going to happen. And so I
think we live with an expectation that that God is
going to come through for us. And, and, um, you know,
(07:33):
I was talking to one pastor, actually, who's a theologian
at a major university, and he was talking about a
miracle that happened when he was, um, younger, going to
a church that was kind of a charismatic church. They
had an expectation of healing, an expectation that the Holy
Spirit was going to show up in divine ways. And
and he he described this miracle that took place. And
(07:55):
then he picked up a handkerchief, and he began to
dab his eyes, and he was almost crying. And he said,
you know, I miss that. You know, I used to
be I used to live in a way that had
an expectation that God was going to do the miraculous.
And he said, I've sort of lost that through the years,
and I regret that. So I think living with that
expectation that we trust God, we trust His Word, and
(08:18):
we can rely on him to do what's best for us.
S2 (08:21):
Yeah, his ways are higher. And when we do trust,
you know, when we're willing to live with mystery instead
of creating a bull's eye that your God and your good,
if you do it my way and my time, backing
up from that to say I'm going to live with
an expectancy, your will your way. But I'm going to
live with expectancy that you are always on the move.
And I think that that's good for our hearts to
have kind of a holy expectancy. It is. We also
(08:43):
talk about Pastor John Boston's story. He was trapped in
a smashed car after he plowed into a utility pole,
and a live transformer crashed onto his vehicle. First of all,
your brain amazes me because I can throw these stories
at you and you remember them. That amazes me. But
go ahead, tell us that story.
S3 (09:00):
Well, well, they're so hard to forget because they're so miraculous.
I mean, here's a guy, he's a pastor, be a pastor,
and he crashes his car into a utility pole. And
the transformer electrical transformer falls down and electrifies his car.
The doors are jammed shut. He's trapped in his car.
He doesn't know what to do. He's praying for God's help.
And all of a sudden, this man shows up kind
(09:22):
of a little, kind of a scruffy looking guy. He
comes up and he opens the car door. Now how?
He wasn't electrocuted, we don't know. He opens the car
door and he pulls John out and drags him aside.
And then the car blows up and, um, this man
says to John, said, you're going to be okay, but
the police are on their way and they can't find
(09:42):
me here when they get here. And then he walked
off and disappeared. And John says, I firmly believe that
was an angel. And, um, you know, it's interesting in Hebrews, um,
the Bible tells us that at times when we entertain
people in hospitality, sometimes we're unknowingly entertaining an angel. So
there's an expectation in Scripture that we may very well
(10:05):
have interactions with angels. And in my book I document
some cases like that where people have had these interactions
that are hard to explain, other than this was actually
an angelic, um, interaction.
S2 (10:17):
I don't know if I've told you this one before. Um, but,
you know, you know, the battle that I've had with
Lyme and the relapse that happened ten years ago. People
with chronic Lyme can't process mold. And so mold causes
neurological issues, brain inflammation for me and all that stuff.
And so I when I travel, I'm always taking a
risk that I'm going into a hotel or a church.
(10:39):
And if it just made my body ache, I wouldn't care.
But it causes inflammatory issues in the brain and vision
and all this stuff. And so and I don't want
to be accommodated, and I don't want to seem like
a diva, like I need a hotel without mold. So
it was a few years ago. I'm walking into this
camp hotel and I tell Kev, whisper. Once we get
in the room, I whisper to him, I think I'm
(11:00):
going to stop speaking now after these next few events.
And it was total self-sabotage because I was afraid of
what people would think if I told them, oh, I
can't stay in this room. And so I just quietly said,
I think I'm going to quit. And my hubby is
so smart. He just smiled and didn't say anything. The
next day I did my first session and there was
book table time, so it was 100 women at the
book table. I'm talking with one after the other. In
(11:22):
the distance I see this beautiful black woman with loud
orangish red pants on and a silk blouse with purples
and golds and creams, and she had a gold silk
scarf that she kept flipping over her shoulder. Big hair.
And she's swinging her little hips, coming right towards me,
and she's telling everybody in line, I'm not budging. I'm
just saying I'm not budging. I'm just saying. And she's
whipping by everybody, so she's totally buttoned, but she's just saying,
(11:44):
you know, but she's coming at me and I'm watching her.
And the whole world faded to to gray. As I'm
watching it, she leans up, puts her knuckles on my
book table, gets in my face and says, Susie Larson,
you listen to me. Don't you even think about quit speaking.
She said, you are not the one who called yourself.
God called you. He will establish you. He will care
for you. He's the one who will call you out
(12:04):
and hold you up. She flips her scarf and she
swings her hips and she walks away. And I look
at my husband and he's like, I didn't say. I
didn't say anything. I could not find her after. But
I'm telling you, I think God sent me an angel
to school. Me and my husband said, leave it up
to God to give you a sassy, bold angel to
put you in your place, you know?
S4 (12:28):
I love that. I.
S2 (12:29):
I'm telling.
S4 (12:30):
You, like God.
S2 (12:32):
It confronted that in me, the self-sabotage. It was like
I have to trust God with my reputation and I
got to trust him with my weaknesses. I will go
to heaven believing that was an angel because nobody could
find her after. So I need to break here, but I.
I love that, you know, if you keep your heart
full of expectancy, you might see more than if you don't.
If you just don't think these things happen. Today we're
(12:54):
going to talk about a biblical view, though, of staying balanced,
staying biblical. And uh, and Lisa want to to talk
about that. His book is a runaway bestseller. Seeing the
supernatural and we're talking about near-death experiences, um, deathbed visions,
all kinds of things. If you've got questions, give us
a call (877)Â 548-3675. More with Lee Strobel in just a moment.
S1 (13:45):
We live in a culture whose needs and obstacles to
faith are constantly shifting. Sean McDowell's book apologetics for an
Ever Changing Culture, addresses many current issues and will help
you share and defend the gospel with relevant answers. It's
our thank you gift for supporting equipped. This month, we'll
send you a copy with your gift of any amount
(14:07):
to equipped. Just call (888)Â 644-4144 or visit equipped radio.org. That's
(888)Â 644-4144 or online at equipped radio.org.
S2 (14:26):
This is equipped with Chris Brooks coming to you from
the studios of Moody Radio. Susie Larson here filling in
for Chris today. You know, there's more to life than
what you see, right? And did you know that there
are spiritual realms that impact how you live life on
earth and how how you steward your time on earth?
Your treasure, your talents, even in God's promises, impacts eternity. Today,
I'm talking with best selling author and investigative journalist Lee
(14:49):
Strobel about his runaway best selling book, I knew It,
I Predicted it. I'm just telling you. Seeing the supernatural,
investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams, near-death encounters, and other mysteries
of unseen world. And we talk about just the secular
culture's fascination right now with the spiritual realm.
S3 (15:07):
Yes. It's incredible. I mean, the television show supernatural, when
they did the pilot episode of that had such an
incredible audience that they went for, ended up being on
TV now for, I think, a dozen years. Um, there's
all kinds of people talking about UFOs and, um, all
kinds of ancient aliens and all kinds of wacky stuff that, um,
(15:29):
come up. But, um, a lot of it is stuff
that's outside the purview and the teachings of the Bible.
You know, talk about ghosts and things like that. And,
and psychics, for instance, that the Bible tells us to
stay away from. And yet people gravitate toward that because
they're looking for answers. And I think when we do
delve into the supernatural realm in a way that's consistent
(15:51):
with the Bible, now we're seeing stuff that we can trust.
Now we're seeing stuff that we can put our faith in.
And the Bible doesn't shy away from talking about the
supernatural world. Jesus was a miracle worker. Jesus was an exorcist.
Jesus believed in demons. And you know, you said earlier,
you know, some Christians kind of shy away from talking
(16:12):
about some of this stuff. And I think that's true
because I think in the United States today, a lot
of Christians want to be socially acceptable. So we go, yeah,
I want you to know, I'm a Christian, and that's fine.
I believe in Jesus and so forth. I go to church, but,
you know, I don't get into that weird stuff. I
don't talk about the demonic and angels and things like that. And,
and we sort of shy away from that because I've
(16:32):
been a Christian now since 1980, 81, and I do
not recall ever hearing a sermon on the topic of angels.
I just don't think I've ever heard one.
S2 (16:42):
I don't either, and I think there's a pride about it. I,
you know, I feel like there's I think we've made
an idol out of looking distinguished. I mean, of course
I don't want to look like a crazy person, but
when you travel to a third world country, to a
mission field. The supernatural is commonplace for them, and they
will even wrinkle their brow and go, why are you
guys like that in the West? Because and I'm like,
(17:03):
you know, we're so we love our control. That's probably why,
you know.
S3 (17:07):
Yeah. That's right. I think that's a good explanation. We
want to control things as best we can. We don't
want our neighbors to think we're weird. We're just like them. Except, oh, yeah,
we believe in God. Well, you know, if we believe
in God, and if we take the Bible as being true,
then there is a supernatural realm. We ought to know
something about it, because one of the worst things we
can do is not delve into it. You know, Satan's
(17:29):
biggest trick is to convince people he doesn't exist. And, uh,
the truth of the matter is, he does exist, and
he does seek to harm us. And we need to
be aware of that and to put on the full
armor of God to protect ourselves.
S2 (17:41):
Oh, that's so good. You were backstage, uh, to be
on a show with Kirk Cameron, and you overheard his
sister sharing her story, and you had to include it
in the book because it was. It was amazing. I
remembered it being a great story. I went back and
looked at it today and I'm like, oh my goodness,
this is so amazing. Say tell, tell her story if
you would.
S3 (17:59):
Yeah, it's Kirk Cameron's sister and she was pregnant and, um,
she miscarried. She was at home. She miscarried the baby.
And and she's devastated. She calls her mother to say,
I'm going to the hospital. And her mother said, inexplicably,
she said, now, don't let them take you into the
operating room, um, before having done an ultrasound. And so
she said, okay, so they get to the hospital and
(18:20):
they're going to take her in for, I don't know,
the procedure, but it's a DNC or whatever it's called
DNC to take care of the miscarriage. And she said,
you know, I want to really have an ultrasound first.
And they were kind of surprised by that. But they
did an ultrasound and to their surprise, they found another
baby inside her. Turned out she was pregnant with twins
(18:40):
and one of the twins had miscarried. But the other
one survived and and was carried to full term and
was born and and so several years later, this little
girl comes up to her mother and says, mommy, do
I have a sister? Well, they'd never told her about
the miscarriage miscarried twin because they didn't want to upset her.
They thought they'd wait until she was older so she
(19:02):
could understand. She was just a little child here. And
they said, well, why do you ask? And she said,
because this little girl comes to me in my dreams
and says, she's my sister. And and she wants to
talk with me and she wants to play with me.
And the funny thing is, she looks just like me.
S4 (19:19):
Wow.
S3 (19:21):
And you go, what's that all about?
S4 (19:23):
Right.
S3 (19:24):
It's got that kind of contact for whatever purpose in
her life, I don't know, but it's the kind of
supernatural thing that you kind of scratch your head over
and say, what does that. What does that really mean?
S2 (19:36):
It seems to me that because there are people who
take some of these things to the extreme, that Christians,
we in the West are content to throw it all out,
you know, because some people do the showmanship with the
healing and maybe even fake healings. We decide that doesn't
ever happen, but it does. There are documented cases of healing.
Same thing with near-death experiences or these kinds of things,
or even like the angelic visitations. There are so many
(20:00):
countless stories like that from people who have more to
lose by sharing a story than they do by speaking up. Right?
S3 (20:08):
Yeah, exactly. And you're right. There are so many stories.
In fact, one of the areas I deal with in
seeing the supernatural are deathbed visions. These are visions that
people have just before they die, and they're incredibly common.
In fact, some researchers went to a hospice facility in
New York State and they said, um, if you have
these are people who are dying. And they said to them,
(20:29):
if you have a vision, a vivid vision, um, that
unlike anything you've ever had before, please tell us. We
would like to know, because a lot of people are
afraid to say something. They think you're going to think
I'm drugged up or I've got dementia or whatever. So
they said, tell us. Well, it turned out 88% of
them had a pre-death vision. Tens of thousands of these
(20:53):
have been studied by researchers at Harvard and Cambridge and
Oxford universities. And what's interesting is we see corroboration that
these are real. They're not just something being conjured up
by our imagination. One team of researchers studied 3000 cases,
and their conclusion was, this is not based on dementia.
It's not based on hallucinations. It's not based on subconscious
mind and things like that. But but one of the
(21:15):
corroboration facts that we see is many times people will
see something in the realm to come that they didn't
know would be there. So in other words, um, there's
a case of a woman named Doris, and she's dying
in a hospital in London. It's a very well documented case.
And she sees the heavens open up, just as in
acts chapter seven. Stephen, right before he died, right before
(21:38):
he's stoned to death, saw the heavens open up and
saw the father and the son in heaven. And so
she sees the heavens open up, and she sees angelic beings,
and she sees her father, who had died several years earlier,
kind of welcoming her to the next realm. But then
she gets this puzzled look on her face and she says,
wait a minute, why is Vida with my father? What?
Why is Vida here? It doesn't make sense. What? What
(22:01):
would Vida be doing there? And then she died. Well,
Vida was her sister. And Vida had died a couple
of weeks earlier. But nobody had told Doris because she
was so ill. They didn't want the shock to kill her.
So they kept this news from her. And yet, in
this pre-death vision, she sees her sister in the realm
to come. So that's that's a kind of corroboration, I think,
(22:22):
that tells us there's something going on here.
S4 (22:24):
Yeah.
S2 (22:25):
And John Burke, your good friend. I've interviewed him plenty
of times, too. You both are. You both are academics.
That's why I don't think I would have even thought
of exploring near-death or deathbed vision with anybody else. I
trust you guys so much. And the more I read,
it's like John was saying, you know, you look at
these stories across the board, their interpretation might be extra-biblical
(22:45):
or unbiblical based on their context. But what they're reporting,
if you just take what they're reporting, there are commonalities
across the board, aren't there?
S3 (22:53):
That's right. There are 47 points of correspondence between biblical
teaching and near-death visions and deathbed experiences, deathbed visions and
near-death experiences. So and as John Burke, you correctly point out,
people will interpret a near-death experience through their worldview, but
strip that away and just say what actually takes place
during a typical near-death experience. It is consistent with the Bible.
(23:17):
And so that's that's an important revelation, important thing to
keep in mind. In fact, for these pre-death visions, often
people will see angels coming for them. Um, and this
is biblical. We see it in Luke chapter 16, verse 22,
where Jesus talks about the rich man who died and
is in torment, and the beggar named Lazarus, who dies,
(23:39):
who went to a place of bliss. And in verse
22 he says that angels carried Lazarus to this place
of bliss, and so often people will see angels coming
for them. In fact, little children who are dying will
see angels. And guess what? They don't see angels like
you would expect them to be seen if this was
just a product of their imagination. Because to a to
(24:00):
a child, an angel has big wings. It's a cartoon character.
That's all they know. And yet when children are dying,
that's not what they see. So we have a documented
case of a little child who was dying and she says, mommy, mommy,
can you see the angels are coming for me? They're
in this room. Oh, look at how beautiful they are.
Listen to their singing. And the mother didn't want to
disappoint her, so she said, oh, yeah. Yeah, I see
(24:22):
the angels look at their big wings.
S4 (24:25):
Wow.
S3 (24:25):
And the little girl said, oh, mommy, you don't have
to lie. They don't have wings.
S4 (24:30):
Wow.
S3 (24:30):
And she went on to describe in vivid details what
these angels look like. So something is going on and
I think it's a peek into the supernatural.
S2 (24:38):
He's so good to give us that, because if he's
asking us, fix your eyes on what you cannot see
how good of him to give us glimpses of glory
now and then. I think again, I told you this one,
but my dad, when he was dying, were all surrounded,
his chair surrounding his chair, and my one of my
brothers was playing guitar and we're singing over him. And
it was just quiet. The room was dark, and he
was so near to, you know, the crossing over. All
(24:59):
of a sudden his eyes perked up. He pointed to
the upper corner of the ceiling, and he grabbed my
mom's hand and puts it over his heart, and he says,
do you see him, honey? Do you see the angels?
They're coming for me. Do you see them? And then
he put his head down and then he died. Just amazing.
S4 (25:13):
To me.
S2 (25:14):
Yeah.
S4 (25:15):
And it's just.
S3 (25:16):
And it's so incredibly common.
S2 (25:18):
It is. And when we come back, I want to
talk about near-death experiences. A couple more of these deathbed visions.
I got a friend who's a hospice nurse, and she
talks about the difference of being present with people who
know the Lord versus those who don't. We're going to
talk about that because we don't have to fear death
if we are in Christ. We do not have to
fear death because he will be right there to usher
us in. Absent from the body. Present with the Lord. Wow,
(25:40):
what a great conversation talking to Lee Strobel. If you
want more information about Lee, his books, and any of
other guests, find him on the web at Radio.com or
on social media, Facebook, Instagram and at radio. When we
come back, we're going to talk about near-death experiences. You
got a question? Give us a call (877)Â 548-3675. We'll be
back in a minute. This is equipped with Chris Brooks
(26:21):
coming to you from the studios of Moody Radio. Susie
Larson here. It's been a joy to fill in for
Chris these past two weeks. Thanks for making me feel welcome.
Today I'm talking with our good friend, investigative journalist best
selling author Lee Strobel, about his runaway best selling book,
Seeing the Supernatural. Such a fascinating conversation. So I want
to just ask you, have you been blessed by shows
like this and guests we've had on in the past.
(26:43):
Today is the 30th of April. It's the last day
to request your copy of apologetics for an Ever Changing
Culture by Sean McDowell. You know, Christianity speaks to every
aspect of life. Sometimes you struggle to connect God's truth
to our world. And that's why Chris Brooks chose Sean
McDowell's new book, apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture as
Our Impact Gift. When you support equip this month so
you can learn how to share your faith, defend your
(27:03):
faith with real people and real issues. Ask for your
copy when you donate online. Today it equipped radio.org or
by calling (888)Â 644-4144. Again, today is the last day to
request this book. We'd love for you to chime in
and give your best gift today. Call (888)Â 644-4144 or go
to Equiped radio.org. Again today I'm talking with bestselling author
(27:26):
investigative journalist Lee Strobel about seeing the supernatural and Lee.
Before we get into a few more of my questions,
I want there's a listener who's been holding for quite
a while, and she wanted to ask you if she
possibly had an angelic experience. Carolyn, you're on the air
with Lee. Thanks for calling.
S5 (27:43):
Oh. Thank you. It's been wonderful to get to know you. Susie,
I just want to send a shout out to Chris
about my prayers for his family at this time. And,
Lee Strobel, I just feel so honored to talk to
you because I absolutely love you. I have almost.
S4 (28:00):
All your books.
S5 (28:01):
I went online to order the case for Easter, and
I found two more I hadn't read yet, so I
ordered those as well.
S4 (28:08):
I've seen the case. Oh, you're very sweet.
S5 (28:10):
I don't know how many times, though. And every time
you're on the radio, I just get so excited. But, um,
I have two stories, actually. You're just talking about near death.
I have an actual death experience, too, with my late husband. But, um,
while my husband was sick for about nine months before
he died, um, I wasn't sleeping well because I was
(28:30):
always afraid that he would die while I was asleep.
And then I'd wake up and he'd be gone. And
I just did not want that to happen. So many nights,
I was only getting 2 or 3 hours of sleep. Plus,
I was working full time and, um, I was I
was living in LA at the time with him. And
if you know anything about LA traffic, you know how
(28:53):
horrible it is. I live 35 miles from my work,
and it would take me two hours to get home
at night. So this one night I was going home
and I felt a tap on my shoulder from behind me,
and I can still feel the exact spot on my
shoulder where that tap hit. And the hand was most
distinctly coming from behind me, but I was the only
(29:15):
one in my car. I jumped, I jumped, and I
realized I had been falling asleep, and when I opened
my eyes, I was about a foot or less from
the back end of an 18 Wheeler. Now, we weren't
going really fast. We were going kind of slow. But still,
if I would hit that 18 Wheeler, bad things could
(29:36):
have happened. So No, I just wanted to share that
and like, that's.
S4 (29:41):
Yeah.
S5 (29:42):
I knew for sure it was an angel because how
what else? Or Jesus. I mean, who else could it
have been?
S4 (29:48):
Yeah.
S2 (29:49):
Thank you, Lord Carolyn.
S4 (29:50):
Thank you. Thank God that happened. Thank you for sharing
that collision. Yeah. Yeah. That's an.
S3 (29:58):
Amazing.
S4 (29:59):
Story.
S2 (29:59):
Yeah. Bless you Carolyn. Keep sharing because God's on the move.
You know my my friend who's a hospice nurse Lee
she said when she's in the presence of believers, she
said there's so much peace in the room. She she
tells our friend group, you don't have to fear death.
It is the most sacred, amazing, beautiful thing because, you know,
precious in the Lord is the death of his saints.
But she said, when you don't know Jesus. She said,
(30:21):
there was one time where one gentleman was on the verge, just,
you know, minutes away, and all of a sudden, just
like my dad, he sat up. But it wasn't good.
He was scared. He was backing into his bed going, no, no, no, no, no.
And he was backing, backing away. And she was praying, praying.
And then he died like He got a glimpse of
life that wasn't good. And you tell us a story
(30:42):
and tell me if you remember. And if not, that's okay.
But I think his name was Howard Storm. Does that
sound right? The one?
S4 (30:49):
Yes.
S2 (30:50):
Oh my goodness. Tell us that story. He was an atheist.
S3 (30:53):
Yes. Howard Storm was an atheist. He was a professor
of art at a secular university. Chairman of the art department.
He was in Paris, France, and he died of a
heart attack. But he said later, I was conscious the
whole time. This was a near-death experience. So in other words,
he had died, but he was going to come back.
He didn't know that, of course. And he feels beckoned
by some people in the hallway who are calling his name. Howard,
(31:15):
come with us. Come with us. We've been waiting for you.
We've been waiting for you. So he follows them down
the hallway. This is his spirit following him. These people.
And as they walked and they walked and they walked
and they walked and they began to get abusive and
and starting to say, come on, hurry up. We're taking
so long. And they're getting angry at them. And and
then pretty soon they start to assault him and they're
(31:37):
attacking him and they're clawing at him. And they tore
off his ear and they're just. And he said later,
he says, I was like, roadkill. I mean, he said
the worst horror movie in the world could not depict
how horrific this attack was on me. And he said,
in the midst of that, I called out to God, Jesus,
save me! And this ball of light came, and Jesus
(31:59):
rescued him from that circumstance. And later he was revived. And, um,
this this encounter was so life transformational for him that
not only did he end up renouncing his atheism, he
not only became a Christian, he gave up his tenured
position at the art department at the university. He went
(32:19):
to seminary, he got a seminary degree, and he's a
pastor at a.
S4 (32:23):
Little church.
S3 (32:23):
In, I believe it's in Oklahoma.
S4 (32:26):
So this, this.
S3 (32:27):
Is this transformed his life.
S2 (32:29):
Lee, I got to read what you wrote here because
you're quoting him and his friends. This just gives such
a picture. So now I have eternity time without measure
to think about my situation. Because I lived a garbage life,
I'd gone down the toilet. I realized that this horrible
part that the people that had met me were kindred spirits.
They denied God. They lived for themselves. Their lives were
about manipulation and control of other people. My life was
(32:51):
devoted to building a monument to my ego, my family,
my sculptures, my paintings. All of those were gone. Now
what did they matter? I wasn't far from becoming like
one of my own tormentors for all eternity. Then eventually
he called out for help. I yelled into the darkness.
Jesus saved me. I've never meant anything more strongly in
my life. A small light appeared a way brighter than
the sun. Hands and arms came out when they touched me.
(33:12):
In that light I could see me and all the gore.
I was roadkill and that gore began to just dissolve
and I came back whole. He felt love far beyond words.
He said if I took all my experience of love
in my entire life and could condense it into a moment,
it still wouldn't measure to the intensity of the love
that I was feeling. And this love is the foundation
of my life from that moment on. So transformational was
(33:33):
this experience that when storm was healed of this medical condition,
as you said, he resigned and became a pastor. And
then you said Burke. John Burke said to you, sometimes
people suggest that NDEs are mere hallucinations, but then you write,
hallucinations are typically scattered and confused, while near-death experiences are
lucid and cohesive. Besides, I don't see people completely changing
(33:53):
the direction of their life based on a mere hallucination. Often, though,
people who've gone through an NDE are changed forever. Say
a word about that. Wow.
S4 (34:02):
Yeah.
S3 (34:03):
Well, you know, what's important about that is that Hebrews
in the Bible says that we are appointed once to
die and then the judgment. And so some people will say, well,
wait a minute. This couldn't have been an authentic experience because, um,
he got another chance. In other words, he called out
to Jesus and he was saved even after he died.
And how does that work? Well, the key point is
(34:23):
he wasn't permanently dead. He was coming back. And that's
true of these people in near-death experiences. They may. They
may have no heartbeat, no brain waves, no breathing, no respiration,
respiration or whatever. Some are actually on their way to
the morgue, but they get revived and they come back.
And so this is not an example of a violation
of the Bible that says that we are appointed once
(34:45):
to die and then the judgment. Um, it is more
of a, um, an experience, um, where they're going to
return to life and then, um, during that time that
they are in this near-death encounter, often Jesus will encounter
people and, and transform them as, as what happened to Howard.
S2 (35:05):
Like John Burke says, they're not permanently dead. They're clinically dead.
And I've got a dear friend who's a trauma surgeon,
and he has had people total flatlined, clinically dead, and
they've come back. That does happen. And, uh, you know,
some of the common denominators. Robert, I see your call.
We're going to get to you on the other side
of the break if you're able to hold, because I'd
love to hear from you, but I want to talk
about some of these commonalities in these NDEs. Um, whether
(35:29):
that a person is a muslim. Whether they're an atheist,
they see a bright light. They feel overwhelming love. They
have the sense of being fully known. They're in awe
and wonder. They have a full life review, but not
in the presence of condemnation, although they do feel conviction
and they have a sensory explosion where suddenly they taste
and smell and see. Speak to that before we go
(35:51):
to break, if you would.
S3 (35:53):
Yeah, not only that, but we have 21 cases where
people who are blind, many of them blind since birth,
who during their near-death experience see for the first time,
and they see people and they see birds and trees
and everything. And then when they're revived, they're blind again. Um,
as medical researchers said, this is medically impossible, and yet
it takes place.
S2 (36:14):
Wow. Okay, we're going to pause here. When we come back,
we'll take Robert's call. If you've got questions, let's see
if we can squeeze in a couple more calls. That
number is 87766758775483675. Talking to Lee Strobel trouble today. If
you want more information on his books, find it on radio.org.
Such great conversation today. I don't know about you, but
(36:36):
this inspires my faith. I want to live as one
who's spoken for. I want to live loved. I want
to pray knowing that there's a God in heaven who
hears me. When I pray and he moves. He cares
about your life and he's more involved than you could
possibly ever imagine. Let your heart be at rest about that.
Even if we have time, we're going to talk about angels.
Lots to talk about. Don't go away. More with Lee
(36:57):
Strobel in just a moment.
S1 (37:15):
Sharing your faith can be challenging. How do you confidently
engage with questions about truth, technology, and culture while staying
grounded in Scripture? That's why Chris Brooks has chosen apologetics
for an ever changing culture as our gift. When you
support equip this month, it will help you provide thoughtful,
informed answers to the pressing questions of our time. Request
(37:39):
your copy today with a gift of any amount. Call
(888)Â 644-4144 or visit equip radio.org.
S2 (37:52):
This is equipped with Chris Brooks coming to you from
the studios of Moody Radio. Susie Larson here filling in
for Chris today. You know, there's more to this life
than what you see. And this is why we're talking
with Lee Strobel about seeing the supernatural. This has been
such a powerful, powerful conversation. We just got a few
minutes left. I want to give some time to a
few calls here. Robert is checking in from Dover, and
he's a pastor of a small church. He says an
(38:15):
angel saved his family from a head on collision. Wow. Robert,
you're on the air with Lee Strobel.
S6 (38:20):
Hi, folks. So about 35 years ago, my wife, my high.
About 35 years ago, my wife and I were new
in the Lord, and we were coming home from church
one morning and we had our three children in the
back of the car, and we were approaching a fork
in the road where we could go either right or left.
(38:41):
And as we were starting to go to the left,
a car coming from our right ran a stop sign
and was about to hit us head on. My wife
was paralyzed with fear and suddenly her hands were forcibly
removed from the steering wheel and the steering wheel took
a hard right, turned to the right, and we narrowly
(39:02):
avoided the oncoming car.
S3 (39:07):
Wow.
S4 (39:08):
Wow. That's that's that's.
S3 (39:11):
Amazing.
S2 (39:12):
I got.
S4 (39:12):
Nothing. Wow. I see it happening. I see it happening.
S2 (39:16):
Wow. Roberts. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Anything else
you want to add, Lee?
S4 (39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
S3 (39:21):
In my book, I tell the story about a missionary
to this the South Pacific who, um, some local tribespeople
who didn't like him spreading the gospel, came to kill
him and his wife and burned down their house. And
so they're in their house and they're praying, God protect us.
We don't know what to do. This mob is forming
to kill us and burn our house down. And, um.
(39:42):
And then by dawn, the crowd, the mob dissipated and
went away. Well, a year later, he led the head
of that tribe to faith in Jesus Christ. And he
was talking to him. And he said, hey, do you
remember that night when you led that mob to come
to our house and kill us? Why didn't you do it?
And the guy said, well, who are all those men
you had protecting your house? And the missionary said, what
(40:03):
are you talking about? It's just my wife and I.
And the guy said, no, no, no, your house was
surrounded by all these muscular men in white garments with
swords that were drawn.
S4 (40:13):
Wow.
S3 (40:13):
And and, uh, I don't think there's any other explanation
other than God answered his prayers for protection by sending
a legion of angels to to save him and his wife.
S2 (40:23):
Wow. Just have a few minutes left and see if
I can get one more call in before we wrap
the show today. Elaine, you're on the air with Lee Strobel.
S7 (40:31):
Oh. Thank you.
S2 (40:35):
What you.
S7 (40:35):
Got? Hello?
S2 (40:36):
Yes. What's your question today?
S4 (40:38):
Hi.
S7 (40:39):
Well, hello, Mr. Strobel. Um. I love your books. Hello, there.
S4 (40:44):
Thank you.
S7 (40:45):
Could you. Could you tell me why God would appear
as Jesus? And I couldn't see his face. But he
appeared to me four times in my lifetime. And I
don't know why. Because I'm just an obscure little person,
and I can't find anyone else who's had experience. An
(41:07):
experience like that.
S3 (41:10):
Yeah. I mean, God can, if he desires, appear to people.
In fact, um, we have some cases of this that
are pretty well documented, um, of God appearing to people.
We have a woman, a muslim woman of eight children
in Cairo, Egypt, who Jesus appeared to her in a
vision in a supernatural dream. And she said, why are
(41:31):
you appearing to me? I'm just a poor Muslim woman,
a mother of eight. And Jesus said, my friend will
tell you tomorrow. And he gestured to a man who
was with them that she had noticed because she was
so mesmerized by Jesus. Well, the next day she goes
to the crowded marketplace in Cairo, and she sees that
man from her dream, and she goes up to him
and says, you're the one, you're the one. He said,
what are you talking about? She said, I had this
(41:52):
vision of Jesus. He appeared to me and you were
with him. And same glasses, same face, same clothes. And
the man said, did you have a dream about Jesus
last night? And she said, yes. Well, it turned out
he was an underground church planter. He didn't want to
go to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on Friday afternoon
because it's chaotic. But he went that day because he
believed God had a mission for him. And sure enough,
(42:14):
he met this woman. He pulled her aside, he opened
the Bible, and he shared the gospel with her. And
so this, this, these kind of visions are happening all
over the Middle East. I have a whole chapter in
my book, Seeing the Supernatural, about these dreams and visions
that that people are having in Muslim countries. And so
it does happen. Why God chooses to appear to some
(42:34):
people and not others. I can't answer that. I just
don't know.
S2 (42:38):
And you know, Elaine, you say you're a nobody and
a little person, but look throughout scripture that he chooses
the weak, you know, to confound the strong, and he
loves you. And I would just maybe look at the
context of your story at those times you had those experiences,
what were you going through? Maybe there was something about
God and His just strengthening you and wanting you to
(42:59):
know that he's with you. Thank you for that call.
We've just got a couple of minutes left. But you
you wrote about angels and one of the philosophers that
you interviewed, this just about knocked me over. Said that
there's twice as many people as we see in any room.
I mean, that about knocked me over when you think
about it that way. Like, you know, it reminds me
of greater are those who are for us, far more
(43:19):
are those who are forced and those who are against us.
Say a word about that.
S4 (43:22):
Yes, yes.
S3 (43:24):
When we when we see a homeless person, that's not
the only person there. There's an angel with that person.
Many Christians believe that we have guardian angels, that God
has assigned an angel to be with us. And we
see two passages of Scripture that suggest that that very,
very well may be true. In fact, people in the
Orthodox tradition of Christianity believe that at the time of
(43:44):
baptism were assigned a guardian angel. And so if that's true,
then every time you see a person, there's really two
people there. There's really an angel who's who's with them
to protect them, to guide them, to be someone they
can turn to in prayer, uh, through God. Not to
pray to the angel, but to pray to God about
the angel. And I've started praying, uh, because of this
(44:05):
work I did on the book about angels. I never
used to do this, but now I pray and I
ask God, send angels to protect my family, my grandchildren,
my ministry. And I think that's totally acceptable. In fact,
Martin Luther, in a small catechism, um, has a prayer
that he says. Lord, send your holy angels to protect
me from the evil one. So, um, yeah, there's there's
(44:29):
all angels are guards. That's one of the things that
angels do. But do we have a guardian angel assigned
to us? We may very well have.
S2 (44:37):
Think about that. Just that again, that philosophers comment. So
you said you see a homeless person, there's someone with them.
You're in a room of 100 people, you're probably in
a room with 200 people. And I was thinking about,
you know, Psalm 103 where it says, bless the Lord,
O my soul. Forget not his benefits. He forgives all
my sins, heals all my diseases, ransoms my life from
the pit. Then it goes on to say toward the end,
(44:57):
praise the Lord, you mighty angels who do his bidding.
And I was just thinking about that, Lee, that they're
doing his bidding because his people are praying. We are praying.
God move. And he's hearing our prayers and he's activating
angels on our behalf. I just wonder if we peel
back the sky for a moment and saw the activity
that's actually going on, because we exist and he loves us.
(45:18):
We might never have another insecure day in our life.
You know.
S3 (45:22):
That's true. When Jesus was being arrested in the Garden
of Gethsemane, he said, do you not think I could
call upon my father right now? And he would send
legions of angels to protect me? In one picture of
Jesus on his throne in revelation, it describes a hundred
million angels worshiping him. A hundred million angels worshiping Jesus
(45:43):
on his throne. And so there's plenty of angels out
there for us to pray to God, to send, to
protect us, to serve us, to guard us in those
moments when when we feel uncertain and vulnerable.
S2 (45:56):
Just a few seconds left. Yet what's your what's your
dream and your prayer for those who read this book?
S3 (46:02):
I hope for Christians who are really deepens their faith. Um,
and there's an account in Second Kings chapter six, where
a servant of Elisha has his eyes open to the supernatural,
and it gives him strength and courage and deepens his faith.
I hope that happens to readers, but then I hope
they give the book away to someone who's spiritually.
S4 (46:20):
Confused.
S3 (46:21):
That it may point them toward the gospel. Because the
gospel is clearly presented as the conclusion of the book.
S2 (46:27):
Lee, I think very well this book could spark an awakening.
I really do a revival and an awakening. Thank you
for your hard work. Thank you for the time today,
my friend. We sure appreciate you.
S4 (46:37):
Thank you. I love you, Susie. God bless you and
your listeners.
S2 (46:40):
Appreciate you so much and I pray you found some
encouragement here today. Thanks for being so welcoming to me.
If you need more information about our guests, you can
always find them on the web at equipped radio.org that's
equipped radio.org. I want to challenge you friend live loved,
live aware that God is for you. Greater is he
that is in you than he that is in the world.
I'm Susie Larson from all of us at equipped. Thank you.
(47:01):
Thank you for listening today. Equipped as a production of
Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Have a
blessed day.
Well. Hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of
equipped with Chris Brooks! I am so thrilled that you've
joined us today. Why don't you do me a favor?
Strap on your seatbelt. We're going to navigate through the
contours of culture, as always, with the lens of the
biblical worldview on. But before we do that, let me
remind you, this is the day that the Lord has made.
He is giving it as a gift so that you
(00:41):
and I can rejoice and be glad in it. So
let's do just that. Let's follow the words of the
Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again
I say, rejoice! I hope you're having a great day.
I'm going to be away from the program today, but
I want you to join me in welcoming Susie Larson
to the hot seat. Now, many of you know Susie.
(01:02):
She's a best selling author, speaker, radio host. She loves
Jesus and most of all loves helping people draw into
a deeper life in Christ. She's also a wife, a mother,
and a grandmother as well. Susie, thank you for hosting
this edition of equip.
S2 (01:21):
Thank you Chris. And boy, we continue to pray for
you and your precious family. So great to be with
you again today. We've got another great show planned for you.
I pray that you tune in prayerfully and humbly. You know,
the Bible tells us that God is a miracle working God,
that he's the same yesterday, today, and forever. That we're
to fix our eyes on what we cannot see because
what we do see is temporary. What we can't see
(01:43):
is eternal. But why are Christians in the West so
leery of talking about the supernatural realm? Why are when
you go to a third world country on a mission trip,
it seems commonplace, but here in the West we're a
little bit more afraid of it. Yet secular culture is
not afraid of it. They're exploring the supernatural realm in movies, entertainment,
and in dangerous ways. What are we to make of
all this? Well, my guest today says most of us
(02:06):
have encountered stories about the supernatural, miraculous healings, unexplained sightings,
near-death experiences, prophetic dreams. But how do we know what's real?
Are these stories just fantasies or even dangerous deceptions? Or
is there something important here for us to understand? I
honestly cannot think of anybody better to explore this topic
than our friend Lee Strobel. Buckle up. You're about to
(02:27):
be amazed. I get to talk with him today about
his new book. It's a new book, but it's already
hit the New York Times list. Seeing the supernatural, investigating angels, demons,
mystical dreams, near-death encounters, and other mysteries of the unseen world.
Let me tell you about him. We'll get him on
the show. Lee Strobel, the former award winning legal editor
of the Chicago Tribune, is a New York Times best
selling author whose books have sold millions of copies worldwide.
(02:51):
He's also renowned investigative journalist and former atheist who served
as teaching pastor at three of America's largest churches. He
and his beautiful wife, Lesley, have been married for over
50 years. They reside in Texas. Their daughter Allison, and
their son Kyle are also authors. Lee, welcome to equipped.
S3 (03:07):
Well thank you Suzy. So great to be with you.
S2 (03:10):
Well, I want our listeners to know today that you're
on the road and you're talking to me from a hotel.
I mean, you could have easily said tied up. I'm
a little busy. Don't have time for you today. But
you made time. So bless you and thank you for that.
S3 (03:23):
Well, I appreciate that we're out in California. My grandson
just had his 12th birthday, so we couldn't miss that.
S2 (03:29):
Oh, way to go. That's about the ultimate assignment. Well,
I'm so grateful for the time.
S3 (03:33):
That's right.
S2 (03:34):
Yeah, well, I gotta say, I love that you don't
ever shrink back from tough topics. And I love even
more that you dive in and you do your homework.
So I want you to talk about. I mean, you're
a busy guy, so talk about the motivation to tackle this.
What can be a controversial topic?
S3 (03:49):
Well, you know, I found out that eight out of
ten Americans believe that there is something beyond what we
can see, touch and put in a test tube. But
so many people get carried away by the paranormal and
some very unbiblical beliefs about the realm beyond what we
can personally experience. And so I thought, you know, I
can use this as a bridge to be able to
(04:10):
talk about what does the Bible say about the world
beyond what we can see and touch and what's corroborated?
What evidence is there that there is a reality in
that realm? And so I delve into all the topics
that you mentioned and, and try to demonstrate that, yes, indeed,
the Bible is telling us the truth when it talks
about things beyond what we see in our everyday life.
S2 (04:34):
Well, you hit the ground running in this book and
the introduction, you tell a story about a pastor who
prayed for his wife at bedtime because she was blind.
Tell us that story.
S3 (04:44):
Yeah. Here's a woman who was blind for over a
dozen years with an incurable condition. She went to a
school for the blind. She learned to read Braille. She
walked with a white cane, and she married a Baptist pastor.
And one night, they were getting ready to go for bed.
She's in bed, and he comes over and he begins
to cry, and he's praying, and he puts his hand
on her shoulder and he begins to pray, Lord, I
(05:05):
know you can heal my wife. I know you can
do it. And I pray that you will do it tonight.
And with that she opened her eyes to perfect vision. Um,
she said later, she said, you know, I was blind
when my husband prayed for me. And then I opened
my eyes, I could see. It's a miracle. And indeed
it was. And her eyesight now has remained for over
47 years. And so this is a case that was
(05:26):
researched by four medical researchers. It was documented medically and
published in a peer reviewed medical journal. So that's the
kind of cases I was looking for, cases that are documented,
cases that, uh, are where we have the evidence before us.
And that's a good example of that.
S2 (05:42):
You know, it's so sad that there's been a sensationalism
and a showmanship around this. Uh, you know, I'm an introvert.
I've walked the long road of some health challenges. And
when God heals me completely, I actually want it to
be in a more quiet, private way. I don't want
to be on a stage where someone's yelling at me
just because it's not my style. You know what I'm saying? But.
(06:02):
And you know this, you know this. My son received
a medical miracle. He had a severe herniation in his
back from a football injury at 17 years old. And
doctors said it was the worst herniation that they'd ever seen.
It exploded on three sets of nerves in his spine.
And they said that he had 17 years old, was
about to lose control of his bowels, and would be
partially disabled for life. And we tried everything. And long
(06:26):
story short, he was medically, miraculously healed by a student
who prayed for him at youth group one night, to
the point where the next day he was running with
the football team again. Miracle like absolute. Even doctors are
like I have no explanation. Zero. And it does happen.
We don't understand his ways. You and I have talked
about this before in your book case for miracles, because
(06:47):
I'm so interested in this topic. One thing I asked
you back then I'd love to expound on now is
I said, did you notice a common denominator among those
who receive miracles? And you said their stories were as
different and their backstories, their backgrounds were as different as
could be. But the common denominator in all of them
is they maintained a hopeful, humble expectancy See that really
(07:08):
spoke to me. Say more, if you would, about that.
S3 (07:11):
Yeah. I think our willingness to be open to God
and to seek his healing, even if he doesn't do
exactly what we want him to do when when we
want him to do it. You know, God says he
will heal us, whether it's in this world or the
world to come. It's going to happen. And so I
think we live with an expectation that that God is
going to come through for us. And, and, um, you know,
(07:33):
I was talking to one pastor, actually, who's a theologian
at a major university, and he was talking about a
miracle that happened when he was, um, younger, going to
a church that was kind of a charismatic church. They
had an expectation of healing, an expectation that the Holy
Spirit was going to show up in divine ways. And
and he he described this miracle that took place. And
(07:55):
then he picked up a handkerchief, and he began to
dab his eyes, and he was almost crying. And he said,
you know, I miss that. You know, I used to
be I used to live in a way that had
an expectation that God was going to do the miraculous.
And he said, I've sort of lost that through the years,
and I regret that. So I think living with that
expectation that we trust God, we trust His Word, and
(08:18):
we can rely on him to do what's best for us.
S2 (08:21):
Yeah, his ways are higher. And when we do trust,
you know, when we're willing to live with mystery instead
of creating a bull's eye that your God and your good,
if you do it my way and my time, backing
up from that to say I'm going to live with
an expectancy, your will your way. But I'm going to
live with expectancy that you are always on the move.
And I think that that's good for our hearts to
have kind of a holy expectancy. It is. We also
(08:43):
talk about Pastor John Boston's story. He was trapped in
a smashed car after he plowed into a utility pole,
and a live transformer crashed onto his vehicle. First of all,
your brain amazes me because I can throw these stories
at you and you remember them. That amazes me. But
go ahead, tell us that story.
S3 (09:00):
Well, well, they're so hard to forget because they're so miraculous.
I mean, here's a guy, he's a pastor, be a pastor,
and he crashes his car into a utility pole. And
the transformer electrical transformer falls down and electrifies his car.
The doors are jammed shut. He's trapped in his car.
He doesn't know what to do. He's praying for God's help.
And all of a sudden, this man shows up kind
(09:22):
of a little, kind of a scruffy looking guy. He
comes up and he opens the car door. Now how?
He wasn't electrocuted, we don't know. He opens the car
door and he pulls John out and drags him aside.
And then the car blows up and, um, this man
says to John, said, you're going to be okay, but
the police are on their way and they can't find
(09:42):
me here when they get here. And then he walked
off and disappeared. And John says, I firmly believe that
was an angel. And, um, you know, it's interesting in Hebrews, um,
the Bible tells us that at times when we entertain
people in hospitality, sometimes we're unknowingly entertaining an angel. So
there's an expectation in Scripture that we may very well
(10:05):
have interactions with angels. And in my book I document
some cases like that where people have had these interactions
that are hard to explain, other than this was actually
an angelic, um, interaction.
S2 (10:17):
I don't know if I've told you this one before. Um, but,
you know, you know, the battle that I've had with
Lyme and the relapse that happened ten years ago. People
with chronic Lyme can't process mold. And so mold causes
neurological issues, brain inflammation for me and all that stuff.
And so I when I travel, I'm always taking a
risk that I'm going into a hotel or a church.
(10:39):
And if it just made my body ache, I wouldn't care.
But it causes inflammatory issues in the brain and vision
and all this stuff. And so and I don't want
to be accommodated, and I don't want to seem like
a diva, like I need a hotel without mold. So
it was a few years ago. I'm walking into this
camp hotel and I tell Kev, whisper. Once we get
in the room, I whisper to him, I think I'm
(11:00):
going to stop speaking now after these next few events.
And it was total self-sabotage because I was afraid of
what people would think if I told them, oh, I
can't stay in this room. And so I just quietly said,
I think I'm going to quit. And my hubby is
so smart. He just smiled and didn't say anything. The
next day I did my first session and there was
book table time, so it was 100 women at the
book table. I'm talking with one after the other. In
(11:22):
the distance I see this beautiful black woman with loud
orangish red pants on and a silk blouse with purples
and golds and creams, and she had a gold silk
scarf that she kept flipping over her shoulder. Big hair.
And she's swinging her little hips, coming right towards me,
and she's telling everybody in line, I'm not budging. I'm
just saying I'm not budging. I'm just saying. And she's
whipping by everybody, so she's totally buttoned, but she's just saying,
(11:44):
you know, but she's coming at me and I'm watching her.
And the whole world faded to to gray. As I'm
watching it, she leans up, puts her knuckles on my
book table, gets in my face and says, Susie Larson,
you listen to me. Don't you even think about quit speaking.
She said, you are not the one who called yourself.
God called you. He will establish you. He will care
for you. He's the one who will call you out
(12:04):
and hold you up. She flips her scarf and she
swings her hips and she walks away. And I look
at my husband and he's like, I didn't say. I
didn't say anything. I could not find her after. But
I'm telling you, I think God sent me an angel
to school. Me and my husband said, leave it up
to God to give you a sassy, bold angel to
put you in your place, you know?
S4 (12:28):
I love that. I.
S2 (12:29):
I'm telling.
S4 (12:30):
You, like God.
S2 (12:32):
It confronted that in me, the self-sabotage. It was like
I have to trust God with my reputation and I
got to trust him with my weaknesses. I will go
to heaven believing that was an angel because nobody could
find her after. So I need to break here, but I.
I love that, you know, if you keep your heart
full of expectancy, you might see more than if you don't.
If you just don't think these things happen. Today we're
(12:54):
going to talk about a biblical view, though, of staying balanced,
staying biblical. And uh, and Lisa want to to talk
about that. His book is a runaway bestseller. Seeing the
supernatural and we're talking about near-death experiences, um, deathbed visions,
all kinds of things. If you've got questions, give us
a call (877)Â 548-3675. More with Lee Strobel in just a moment.
S1 (13:45):
We live in a culture whose needs and obstacles to
faith are constantly shifting. Sean McDowell's book apologetics for an
Ever Changing Culture, addresses many current issues and will help
you share and defend the gospel with relevant answers. It's
our thank you gift for supporting equipped. This month, we'll
send you a copy with your gift of any amount
(14:07):
to equipped. Just call (888)Â 644-4144 or visit equipped radio.org. That's
(888)Â 644-4144 or online at equipped radio.org.
S2 (14:26):
This is equipped with Chris Brooks coming to you from
the studios of Moody Radio. Susie Larson here filling in
for Chris today. You know, there's more to life than
what you see, right? And did you know that there
are spiritual realms that impact how you live life on
earth and how how you steward your time on earth?
Your treasure, your talents, even in God's promises, impacts eternity. Today,
I'm talking with best selling author and investigative journalist Lee
(14:49):
Strobel about his runaway best selling book, I knew It,
I Predicted it. I'm just telling you. Seeing the supernatural,
investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams, near-death encounters, and other mysteries
of unseen world. And we talk about just the secular
culture's fascination right now with the spiritual realm.
S3 (15:07):
Yes. It's incredible. I mean, the television show supernatural, when
they did the pilot episode of that had such an
incredible audience that they went for, ended up being on
TV now for, I think, a dozen years. Um, there's
all kinds of people talking about UFOs and, um, all
kinds of ancient aliens and all kinds of wacky stuff that, um,
(15:29):
come up. But, um, a lot of it is stuff
that's outside the purview and the teachings of the Bible.
You know, talk about ghosts and things like that. And,
and psychics, for instance, that the Bible tells us to
stay away from. And yet people gravitate toward that because
they're looking for answers. And I think when we do
delve into the supernatural realm in a way that's consistent
(15:51):
with the Bible, now we're seeing stuff that we can trust.
Now we're seeing stuff that we can put our faith in.
And the Bible doesn't shy away from talking about the
supernatural world. Jesus was a miracle worker. Jesus was an exorcist.
Jesus believed in demons. And you know, you said earlier,
you know, some Christians kind of shy away from talking
(16:12):
about some of this stuff. And I think that's true
because I think in the United States today, a lot
of Christians want to be socially acceptable. So we go, yeah,
I want you to know, I'm a Christian, and that's fine.
I believe in Jesus and so forth. I go to church, but,
you know, I don't get into that weird stuff. I
don't talk about the demonic and angels and things like that. And,
and we sort of shy away from that because I've
(16:32):
been a Christian now since 1980, 81, and I do
not recall ever hearing a sermon on the topic of angels.
I just don't think I've ever heard one.
S2 (16:42):
I don't either, and I think there's a pride about it. I,
you know, I feel like there's I think we've made
an idol out of looking distinguished. I mean, of course
I don't want to look like a crazy person, but
when you travel to a third world country, to a
mission field. The supernatural is commonplace for them, and they
will even wrinkle their brow and go, why are you
guys like that in the West? Because and I'm like,
(17:03):
you know, we're so we love our control. That's probably why,
you know.
S3 (17:07):
Yeah. That's right. I think that's a good explanation. We
want to control things as best we can. We don't
want our neighbors to think we're weird. We're just like them. Except, oh, yeah,
we believe in God. Well, you know, if we believe
in God, and if we take the Bible as being true,
then there is a supernatural realm. We ought to know
something about it, because one of the worst things we
can do is not delve into it. You know, Satan's
(17:29):
biggest trick is to convince people he doesn't exist. And, uh,
the truth of the matter is, he does exist, and
he does seek to harm us. And we need to
be aware of that and to put on the full
armor of God to protect ourselves.
S2 (17:41):
Oh, that's so good. You were backstage, uh, to be
on a show with Kirk Cameron, and you overheard his
sister sharing her story, and you had to include it
in the book because it was. It was amazing. I
remembered it being a great story. I went back and
looked at it today and I'm like, oh my goodness,
this is so amazing. Say tell, tell her story if
you would.
S3 (17:59):
Yeah, it's Kirk Cameron's sister and she was pregnant and, um,
she miscarried. She was at home. She miscarried the baby.
And and she's devastated. She calls her mother to say,
I'm going to the hospital. And her mother said, inexplicably,
she said, now, don't let them take you into the
operating room, um, before having done an ultrasound. And so
she said, okay, so they get to the hospital and
(18:20):
they're going to take her in for, I don't know,
the procedure, but it's a DNC or whatever it's called
DNC to take care of the miscarriage. And she said,
you know, I want to really have an ultrasound first.
And they were kind of surprised by that. But they
did an ultrasound and to their surprise, they found another
baby inside her. Turned out she was pregnant with twins
(18:40):
and one of the twins had miscarried. But the other
one survived and and was carried to full term and
was born and and so several years later, this little
girl comes up to her mother and says, mommy, do
I have a sister? Well, they'd never told her about
the miscarriage miscarried twin because they didn't want to upset her.
They thought they'd wait until she was older so she
(19:02):
could understand. She was just a little child here. And
they said, well, why do you ask? And she said,
because this little girl comes to me in my dreams
and says, she's my sister. And and she wants to
talk with me and she wants to play with me.
And the funny thing is, she looks just like me.
S4 (19:19):
Wow.
S3 (19:21):
And you go, what's that all about?
S4 (19:23):
Right.
S3 (19:24):
It's got that kind of contact for whatever purpose in
her life, I don't know, but it's the kind of
supernatural thing that you kind of scratch your head over
and say, what does that. What does that really mean?
S2 (19:36):
It seems to me that because there are people who
take some of these things to the extreme, that Christians,
we in the West are content to throw it all out,
you know, because some people do the showmanship with the
healing and maybe even fake healings. We decide that doesn't
ever happen, but it does. There are documented cases of healing.
Same thing with near-death experiences or these kinds of things,
or even like the angelic visitations. There are so many
(20:00):
countless stories like that from people who have more to
lose by sharing a story than they do by speaking up. Right?
S3 (20:08):
Yeah, exactly. And you're right. There are so many stories.
In fact, one of the areas I deal with in
seeing the supernatural are deathbed visions. These are visions that
people have just before they die, and they're incredibly common.
In fact, some researchers went to a hospice facility in
New York State and they said, um, if you have
these are people who are dying. And they said to them,
(20:29):
if you have a vision, a vivid vision, um, that
unlike anything you've ever had before, please tell us. We
would like to know, because a lot of people are
afraid to say something. They think you're going to think
I'm drugged up or I've got dementia or whatever. So
they said, tell us. Well, it turned out 88% of
them had a pre-death vision. Tens of thousands of these
(20:53):
have been studied by researchers at Harvard and Cambridge and
Oxford universities. And what's interesting is we see corroboration that
these are real. They're not just something being conjured up
by our imagination. One team of researchers studied 3000 cases,
and their conclusion was, this is not based on dementia.
It's not based on hallucinations. It's not based on subconscious
mind and things like that. But but one of the
(21:15):
corroboration facts that we see is many times people will
see something in the realm to come that they didn't
know would be there. So in other words, um, there's
a case of a woman named Doris, and she's dying
in a hospital in London. It's a very well documented case.
And she sees the heavens open up, just as in
acts chapter seven. Stephen, right before he died, right before
(21:38):
he's stoned to death, saw the heavens open up and
saw the father and the son in heaven. And so
she sees the heavens open up, and she sees angelic beings,
and she sees her father, who had died several years earlier,
kind of welcoming her to the next realm. But then
she gets this puzzled look on her face and she says,
wait a minute, why is Vida with my father? What?
Why is Vida here? It doesn't make sense. What? What
(22:01):
would Vida be doing there? And then she died. Well,
Vida was her sister. And Vida had died a couple
of weeks earlier. But nobody had told Doris because she
was so ill. They didn't want the shock to kill her.
So they kept this news from her. And yet, in
this pre-death vision, she sees her sister in the realm
to come. So that's that's a kind of corroboration, I think,
(22:22):
that tells us there's something going on here.
S4 (22:24):
Yeah.
S2 (22:25):
And John Burke, your good friend. I've interviewed him plenty
of times, too. You both are. You both are academics.
That's why I don't think I would have even thought
of exploring near-death or deathbed vision with anybody else. I
trust you guys so much. And the more I read,
it's like John was saying, you know, you look at
these stories across the board, their interpretation might be extra-biblical
(22:45):
or unbiblical based on their context. But what they're reporting,
if you just take what they're reporting, there are commonalities
across the board, aren't there?
S3 (22:53):
That's right. There are 47 points of correspondence between biblical
teaching and near-death visions and deathbed experiences, deathbed visions and
near-death experiences. So and as John Burke, you correctly point out,
people will interpret a near-death experience through their worldview, but
strip that away and just say what actually takes place
during a typical near-death experience. It is consistent with the Bible.
(23:17):
And so that's that's an important revelation, important thing to
keep in mind. In fact, for these pre-death visions, often
people will see angels coming for them. Um, and this
is biblical. We see it in Luke chapter 16, verse 22,
where Jesus talks about the rich man who died and
is in torment, and the beggar named Lazarus, who dies,
(23:39):
who went to a place of bliss. And in verse
22 he says that angels carried Lazarus to this place
of bliss, and so often people will see angels coming
for them. In fact, little children who are dying will
see angels. And guess what? They don't see angels like
you would expect them to be seen if this was
just a product of their imagination. Because to a to
(24:00):
a child, an angel has big wings. It's a cartoon character.
That's all they know. And yet when children are dying,
that's not what they see. So we have a documented
case of a little child who was dying and she says, mommy, mommy,
can you see the angels are coming for me? They're
in this room. Oh, look at how beautiful they are.
Listen to their singing. And the mother didn't want to
disappoint her, so she said, oh, yeah. Yeah, I see
(24:22):
the angels look at their big wings.
S4 (24:25):
Wow.
S3 (24:25):
And the little girl said, oh, mommy, you don't have
to lie. They don't have wings.
S4 (24:30):
Wow.
S3 (24:30):
And she went on to describe in vivid details what
these angels look like. So something is going on and
I think it's a peek into the supernatural.
S2 (24:38):
He's so good to give us that, because if he's
asking us, fix your eyes on what you cannot see
how good of him to give us glimpses of glory
now and then. I think again, I told you this one,
but my dad, when he was dying, were all surrounded,
his chair surrounding his chair, and my one of my
brothers was playing guitar and we're singing over him. And
it was just quiet. The room was dark, and he
was so near to, you know, the crossing over. All
(24:59):
of a sudden his eyes perked up. He pointed to
the upper corner of the ceiling, and he grabbed my
mom's hand and puts it over his heart, and he says,
do you see him, honey? Do you see the angels?
They're coming for me. Do you see them? And then
he put his head down and then he died. Just amazing.
S4 (25:13):
To me.
S2 (25:14):
Yeah.
S4 (25:15):
And it's just.
S3 (25:16):
And it's so incredibly common.
S2 (25:18):
It is. And when we come back, I want to
talk about near-death experiences. A couple more of these deathbed visions.
I got a friend who's a hospice nurse, and she
talks about the difference of being present with people who
know the Lord versus those who don't. We're going to
talk about that because we don't have to fear death
if we are in Christ. We do not have to
fear death because he will be right there to usher
us in. Absent from the body. Present with the Lord. Wow,
(25:40):
what a great conversation talking to Lee Strobel. If you
want more information about Lee, his books, and any of
other guests, find him on the web at Radio.com or
on social media, Facebook, Instagram and at radio. When we
come back, we're going to talk about near-death experiences. You
got a question? Give us a call (877)Â 548-3675. We'll be
back in a minute. This is equipped with Chris Brooks
(26:21):
coming to you from the studios of Moody Radio. Susie
Larson here. It's been a joy to fill in for
Chris these past two weeks. Thanks for making me feel welcome.
Today I'm talking with our good friend, investigative journalist best
selling author Lee Strobel, about his runaway best selling book,
Seeing the Supernatural. Such a fascinating conversation. So I want
to just ask you, have you been blessed by shows
like this and guests we've had on in the past.
(26:43):
Today is the 30th of April. It's the last day
to request your copy of apologetics for an Ever Changing
Culture by Sean McDowell. You know, Christianity speaks to every
aspect of life. Sometimes you struggle to connect God's truth
to our world. And that's why Chris Brooks chose Sean
McDowell's new book, apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture as
Our Impact Gift. When you support equip this month so
you can learn how to share your faith, defend your
(27:03):
faith with real people and real issues. Ask for your
copy when you donate online. Today it equipped radio.org or
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request this book. We'd love for you to chime in
and give your best gift today. Call (888)Â 644-4144 or go
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(27:26):
investigative journalist Lee Strobel about seeing the supernatural and Lee.
Before we get into a few more of my questions,
I want there's a listener who's been holding for quite
a while, and she wanted to ask you if she
possibly had an angelic experience. Carolyn, you're on the air
with Lee. Thanks for calling.
S5 (27:43):
Oh. Thank you. It's been wonderful to get to know you. Susie,
I just want to send a shout out to Chris
about my prayers for his family at this time. And,
Lee Strobel, I just feel so honored to talk to
you because I absolutely love you. I have almost.
S4 (28:00):
All your books.
S5 (28:01):
I went online to order the case for Easter, and
I found two more I hadn't read yet, so I
ordered those as well.
S4 (28:08):
I've seen the case. Oh, you're very sweet.
S5 (28:10):
I don't know how many times, though. And every time
you're on the radio, I just get so excited. But, um,
I have two stories, actually. You're just talking about near death.
I have an actual death experience, too, with my late husband. But, um,
while my husband was sick for about nine months before
he died, um, I wasn't sleeping well because I was
(28:30):
always afraid that he would die while I was asleep.
And then I'd wake up and he'd be gone. And
I just did not want that to happen. So many nights,
I was only getting 2 or 3 hours of sleep. Plus,
I was working full time and, um, I was I
was living in LA at the time with him. And
if you know anything about LA traffic, you know how
(28:53):
horrible it is. I live 35 miles from my work,
and it would take me two hours to get home
at night. So this one night I was going home
and I felt a tap on my shoulder from behind me,
and I can still feel the exact spot on my
shoulder where that tap hit. And the hand was most
distinctly coming from behind me, but I was the only
(29:15):
one in my car. I jumped, I jumped, and I
realized I had been falling asleep, and when I opened
my eyes, I was about a foot or less from
the back end of an 18 Wheeler. Now, we weren't
going really fast. We were going kind of slow. But still,
if I would hit that 18 Wheeler, bad things could
(29:36):
have happened. So No, I just wanted to share that
and like, that's.
S4 (29:41):
Yeah.
S5 (29:42):
I knew for sure it was an angel because how
what else? Or Jesus. I mean, who else could it
have been?
S4 (29:48):
Yeah.
S2 (29:49):
Thank you, Lord Carolyn.
S4 (29:50):
Thank you. Thank God that happened. Thank you for sharing
that collision. Yeah. Yeah. That's an.
S3 (29:58):
Amazing.
S4 (29:59):
Story.
S2 (29:59):
Yeah. Bless you Carolyn. Keep sharing because God's on the move.
You know my my friend who's a hospice nurse Lee
she said when she's in the presence of believers, she
said there's so much peace in the room. She she
tells our friend group, you don't have to fear death.
It is the most sacred, amazing, beautiful thing because, you know,
precious in the Lord is the death of his saints.
But she said, when you don't know Jesus. She said,
(30:21):
there was one time where one gentleman was on the verge, just,
you know, minutes away, and all of a sudden, just
like my dad, he sat up. But it wasn't good.
He was scared. He was backing into his bed going, no, no, no, no, no.
And he was backing, backing away. And she was praying, praying.
And then he died like He got a glimpse of
life that wasn't good. And you tell us a story
(30:42):
and tell me if you remember. And if not, that's okay.
But I think his name was Howard Storm. Does that
sound right? The one?
S4 (30:49):
Yes.
S2 (30:50):
Oh my goodness. Tell us that story. He was an atheist.
S3 (30:53):
Yes. Howard Storm was an atheist. He was a professor
of art at a secular university. Chairman of the art department.
He was in Paris, France, and he died of a
heart attack. But he said later, I was conscious the
whole time. This was a near-death experience. So in other words,
he had died, but he was going to come back.
He didn't know that, of course. And he feels beckoned
by some people in the hallway who are calling his name. Howard,
(31:15):
come with us. Come with us. We've been waiting for you.
We've been waiting for you. So he follows them down
the hallway. This is his spirit following him. These people.
And as they walked and they walked and they walked
and they walked and they began to get abusive and
and starting to say, come on, hurry up. We're taking
so long. And they're getting angry at them. And and
then pretty soon they start to assault him and they're
(31:37):
attacking him and they're clawing at him. And they tore
off his ear and they're just. And he said later,
he says, I was like, roadkill. I mean, he said
the worst horror movie in the world could not depict
how horrific this attack was on me. And he said,
in the midst of that, I called out to God, Jesus,
save me! And this ball of light came, and Jesus
(31:59):
rescued him from that circumstance. And later he was revived. And, um,
this this encounter was so life transformational for him that
not only did he end up renouncing his atheism, he
not only became a Christian, he gave up his tenured
position at the art department at the university. He went
(32:19):
to seminary, he got a seminary degree, and he's a
pastor at a.
S4 (32:23):
Little church.
S3 (32:23):
In, I believe it's in Oklahoma.
S4 (32:26):
So this, this.
S3 (32:27):
Is this transformed his life.
S2 (32:29):
Lee, I got to read what you wrote here because
you're quoting him and his friends. This just gives such
a picture. So now I have eternity time without measure
to think about my situation. Because I lived a garbage life,
I'd gone down the toilet. I realized that this horrible
part that the people that had met me were kindred spirits.
They denied God. They lived for themselves. Their lives were
about manipulation and control of other people. My life was
(32:51):
devoted to building a monument to my ego, my family,
my sculptures, my paintings. All of those were gone. Now
what did they matter? I wasn't far from becoming like
one of my own tormentors for all eternity. Then eventually
he called out for help. I yelled into the darkness.
Jesus saved me. I've never meant anything more strongly in
my life. A small light appeared a way brighter than
the sun. Hands and arms came out when they touched me.
(33:12):
In that light I could see me and all the gore.
I was roadkill and that gore began to just dissolve
and I came back whole. He felt love far beyond words.
He said if I took all my experience of love
in my entire life and could condense it into a moment,
it still wouldn't measure to the intensity of the love
that I was feeling. And this love is the foundation
of my life from that moment on. So transformational was
(33:33):
this experience that when storm was healed of this medical condition,
as you said, he resigned and became a pastor. And
then you said Burke. John Burke said to you, sometimes
people suggest that NDEs are mere hallucinations, but then you write,
hallucinations are typically scattered and confused, while near-death experiences are
lucid and cohesive. Besides, I don't see people completely changing
(33:53):
the direction of their life based on a mere hallucination. Often, though,
people who've gone through an NDE are changed forever. Say
a word about that. Wow.
S4 (34:02):
Yeah.
S3 (34:03):
Well, you know, what's important about that is that Hebrews
in the Bible says that we are appointed once to
die and then the judgment. And so some people will say, well,
wait a minute. This couldn't have been an authentic experience because, um,
he got another chance. In other words, he called out
to Jesus and he was saved even after he died.
And how does that work? Well, the key point is
(34:23):
he wasn't permanently dead. He was coming back. And that's
true of these people in near-death experiences. They may. They
may have no heartbeat, no brain waves, no breathing, no respiration,
respiration or whatever. Some are actually on their way to
the morgue, but they get revived and they come back.
And so this is not an example of a violation
of the Bible that says that we are appointed once
(34:45):
to die and then the judgment. Um, it is more
of a, um, an experience, um, where they're going to
return to life and then, um, during that time that
they are in this near-death encounter, often Jesus will encounter
people and, and transform them as, as what happened to Howard.
S2 (35:05):
Like John Burke says, they're not permanently dead. They're clinically dead.
And I've got a dear friend who's a trauma surgeon,
and he has had people total flatlined, clinically dead, and
they've come back. That does happen. And, uh, you know,
some of the common denominators. Robert, I see your call.
We're going to get to you on the other side
of the break if you're able to hold, because I'd
love to hear from you, but I want to talk
about some of these commonalities in these NDEs. Um, whether
(35:29):
that a person is a muslim. Whether they're an atheist,
they see a bright light. They feel overwhelming love. They
have the sense of being fully known. They're in awe
and wonder. They have a full life review, but not
in the presence of condemnation, although they do feel conviction
and they have a sensory explosion where suddenly they taste
and smell and see. Speak to that before we go
(35:51):
to break, if you would.
S3 (35:53):
Yeah, not only that, but we have 21 cases where
people who are blind, many of them blind since birth,
who during their near-death experience see for the first time,
and they see people and they see birds and trees
and everything. And then when they're revived, they're blind again. Um,
as medical researchers said, this is medically impossible, and yet
it takes place.
S2 (36:14):
Wow. Okay, we're going to pause here. When we come back,
we'll take Robert's call. If you've got questions, let's see
if we can squeeze in a couple more calls. That
number is 87766758775483675. Talking to Lee Strobel trouble today. If
you want more information on his books, find it on radio.org.
Such great conversation today. I don't know about you, but
(36:36):
this inspires my faith. I want to live as one
who's spoken for. I want to live loved. I want
to pray knowing that there's a God in heaven who
hears me. When I pray and he moves. He cares
about your life and he's more involved than you could
possibly ever imagine. Let your heart be at rest about that.
Even if we have time, we're going to talk about angels.
Lots to talk about. Don't go away. More with Lee
(36:57):
Strobel in just a moment.
S1 (37:15):
Sharing your faith can be challenging. How do you confidently
engage with questions about truth, technology, and culture while staying
grounded in Scripture? That's why Chris Brooks has chosen apologetics
for an ever changing culture as our gift. When you
support equip this month, it will help you provide thoughtful,
informed answers to the pressing questions of our time. Request
(37:39):
your copy today with a gift of any amount. Call
(888)Â 644-4144 or visit equip radio.org.
S2 (37:52):
This is equipped with Chris Brooks coming to you from
the studios of Moody Radio. Susie Larson here filling in
for Chris today. You know, there's more to this life
than what you see. And this is why we're talking
with Lee Strobel about seeing the supernatural. This has been
such a powerful, powerful conversation. We just got a few
minutes left. I want to give some time to a
few calls here. Robert is checking in from Dover, and
he's a pastor of a small church. He says an
(38:15):
angel saved his family from a head on collision. Wow. Robert,
you're on the air with Lee Strobel.
S6 (38:20):
Hi, folks. So about 35 years ago, my wife, my high.
About 35 years ago, my wife and I were new
in the Lord, and we were coming home from church
one morning and we had our three children in the
back of the car, and we were approaching a fork
in the road where we could go either right or left.
(38:41):
And as we were starting to go to the left,
a car coming from our right ran a stop sign
and was about to hit us head on. My wife
was paralyzed with fear and suddenly her hands were forcibly
removed from the steering wheel and the steering wheel took
a hard right, turned to the right, and we narrowly
(39:02):
avoided the oncoming car.
S3 (39:07):
Wow.
S4 (39:08):
Wow. That's that's that's.
S3 (39:11):
Amazing.
S2 (39:12):
I got.
S4 (39:12):
Nothing. Wow. I see it happening. I see it happening.
S2 (39:16):
Wow. Roberts. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Anything else
you want to add, Lee?
S4 (39:20):
Yeah, yeah.
S3 (39:21):
In my book, I tell the story about a missionary
to this the South Pacific who, um, some local tribespeople
who didn't like him spreading the gospel, came to kill
him and his wife and burned down their house. And
so they're in their house and they're praying, God protect us.
We don't know what to do. This mob is forming
to kill us and burn our house down. And, um.
(39:42):
And then by dawn, the crowd, the mob dissipated and
went away. Well, a year later, he led the head
of that tribe to faith in Jesus Christ. And he
was talking to him. And he said, hey, do you
remember that night when you led that mob to come
to our house and kill us? Why didn't you do it?
And the guy said, well, who are all those men
you had protecting your house? And the missionary said, what
(40:03):
are you talking about? It's just my wife and I.
And the guy said, no, no, no, your house was
surrounded by all these muscular men in white garments with
swords that were drawn.
S4 (40:13):
Wow.
S3 (40:13):
And and, uh, I don't think there's any other explanation
other than God answered his prayers for protection by sending
a legion of angels to to save him and his wife.
S2 (40:23):
Wow. Just have a few minutes left and see if
I can get one more call in before we wrap
the show today. Elaine, you're on the air with Lee Strobel.
S7 (40:31):
Oh. Thank you.
S2 (40:35):
What you.
S7 (40:35):
Got? Hello?
S2 (40:36):
Yes. What's your question today?
S4 (40:38):
Hi.
S7 (40:39):
Well, hello, Mr. Strobel. Um. I love your books. Hello, there.
S4 (40:44):
Thank you.
S7 (40:45):
Could you. Could you tell me why God would appear
as Jesus? And I couldn't see his face. But he
appeared to me four times in my lifetime. And I
don't know why. Because I'm just an obscure little person,
and I can't find anyone else who's had experience. An
(41:07):
experience like that.
S3 (41:10):
Yeah. I mean, God can, if he desires, appear to people.
In fact, um, we have some cases of this that
are pretty well documented, um, of God appearing to people.
We have a woman, a muslim woman of eight children
in Cairo, Egypt, who Jesus appeared to her in a
vision in a supernatural dream. And she said, why are
(41:31):
you appearing to me? I'm just a poor Muslim woman,
a mother of eight. And Jesus said, my friend will
tell you tomorrow. And he gestured to a man who
was with them that she had noticed because she was
so mesmerized by Jesus. Well, the next day she goes
to the crowded marketplace in Cairo, and she sees that
man from her dream, and she goes up to him
and says, you're the one, you're the one. He said,
what are you talking about? She said, I had this
(41:52):
vision of Jesus. He appeared to me and you were
with him. And same glasses, same face, same clothes. And
the man said, did you have a dream about Jesus
last night? And she said, yes. Well, it turned out
he was an underground church planter. He didn't want to
go to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on Friday afternoon
because it's chaotic. But he went that day because he
believed God had a mission for him. And sure enough,
(42:14):
he met this woman. He pulled her aside, he opened
the Bible, and he shared the gospel with her. And
so this, this, these kind of visions are happening all
over the Middle East. I have a whole chapter in
my book, Seeing the Supernatural, about these dreams and visions
that that people are having in Muslim countries. And so
it does happen. Why God chooses to appear to some
(42:34):
people and not others. I can't answer that. I just
don't know.
S2 (42:38):
And you know, Elaine, you say you're a nobody and
a little person, but look throughout scripture that he chooses
the weak, you know, to confound the strong, and he
loves you. And I would just maybe look at the
context of your story at those times you had those experiences,
what were you going through? Maybe there was something about
God and His just strengthening you and wanting you to
(42:59):
know that he's with you. Thank you for that call.
We've just got a couple of minutes left. But you
you wrote about angels and one of the philosophers that
you interviewed, this just about knocked me over. Said that
there's twice as many people as we see in any room.
I mean, that about knocked me over when you think
about it that way. Like, you know, it reminds me
of greater are those who are for us, far more
(43:19):
are those who are forced and those who are against us.
Say a word about that.
S4 (43:22):
Yes, yes.
S3 (43:24):
When we when we see a homeless person, that's not
the only person there. There's an angel with that person.
Many Christians believe that we have guardian angels, that God
has assigned an angel to be with us. And we
see two passages of Scripture that suggest that that very,
very well may be true. In fact, people in the
Orthodox tradition of Christianity believe that at the time of
(43:44):
baptism were assigned a guardian angel. And so if that's true,
then every time you see a person, there's really two
people there. There's really an angel who's who's with them
to protect them, to guide them, to be someone they
can turn to in prayer, uh, through God. Not to
pray to the angel, but to pray to God about
the angel. And I've started praying, uh, because of this
(44:05):
work I did on the book about angels. I never
used to do this, but now I pray and I
ask God, send angels to protect my family, my grandchildren,
my ministry. And I think that's totally acceptable. In fact,
Martin Luther, in a small catechism, um, has a prayer
that he says. Lord, send your holy angels to protect
me from the evil one. So, um, yeah, there's there's
(44:29):
all angels are guards. That's one of the things that
angels do. But do we have a guardian angel assigned
to us? We may very well have.
S2 (44:37):
Think about that. Just that again, that philosophers comment. So
you said you see a homeless person, there's someone with them.
You're in a room of 100 people, you're probably in
a room with 200 people. And I was thinking about,
you know, Psalm 103 where it says, bless the Lord,
O my soul. Forget not his benefits. He forgives all
my sins, heals all my diseases, ransoms my life from
the pit. Then it goes on to say toward the end,
(44:57):
praise the Lord, you mighty angels who do his bidding.
And I was just thinking about that, Lee, that they're
doing his bidding because his people are praying. We are praying.
God move. And he's hearing our prayers and he's activating
angels on our behalf. I just wonder if we peel
back the sky for a moment and saw the activity
that's actually going on, because we exist and he loves us.
(45:18):
We might never have another insecure day in our life.
You know.
S3 (45:22):
That's true. When Jesus was being arrested in the Garden
of Gethsemane, he said, do you not think I could
call upon my father right now? And he would send
legions of angels to protect me? In one picture of
Jesus on his throne in revelation, it describes a hundred
million angels worshiping him. A hundred million angels worshiping Jesus
(45:43):
on his throne. And so there's plenty of angels out
there for us to pray to God, to send, to
protect us, to serve us, to guard us in those
moments when when we feel uncertain and vulnerable.
S2 (45:56):
Just a few seconds left. Yet what's your what's your
dream and your prayer for those who read this book?
S3 (46:02):
I hope for Christians who are really deepens their faith. Um,
and there's an account in Second Kings chapter six, where
a servant of Elisha has his eyes open to the supernatural,
and it gives him strength and courage and deepens his faith.
I hope that happens to readers, but then I hope
they give the book away to someone who's spiritually.
S4 (46:20):
Confused.
S3 (46:21):
That it may point them toward the gospel. Because the
gospel is clearly presented as the conclusion of the book.
S2 (46:27):
Lee, I think very well this book could spark an awakening.
I really do a revival and an awakening. Thank you
for your hard work. Thank you for the time today,
my friend. We sure appreciate you.
S4 (46:37):
Thank you. I love you, Susie. God bless you and
your listeners.
S2 (46:40):
Appreciate you so much and I pray you found some
encouragement here today. Thanks for being so welcoming to me.
If you need more information about our guests, you can
always find them on the web at equipped radio.org that's
equipped radio.org. I want to challenge you friend live loved,
live aware that God is for you. Greater is he
that is in you than he that is in the world.
I'm Susie Larson from all of us at equipped. Thank you.
(47:01):
Thank you for listening today. Equipped as a production of
Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Have a
blessed day.
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