May 5, 2025 • 47 mins
What does the Bible teach about the role of women in the church?
Chris Brooks explores the Scriptures with author and teacher Jen Wilkin to address some of the most frequently asked questions about gender roles. Together they offer answers founded on Biblical truth.
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S1 (00:15):
Please enjoy this encore edition of equipped with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equip
with Chris Brooks. I am absolutely thrilled that you've joined
us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap on
your seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours
of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical
(00:38):
worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you,
this is the day that the Lord has made. He
has given it as a gift so that you and
I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's
do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul.
Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say,
rejoice with that. I want to welcome you into what
will be a very educational and hopefully healing edition of Equip.
(01:02):
I want to start by saying thank you to all
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(01:25):
their faith. You can find out more about the program
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simply call 888644 4144. That's 888644 4144. Well, today I
want to talk about one of the most important conversations
that's happening within the church. Uh, as we as we speak.
(01:49):
And it's how can we as Christians in particular, Christian leaders,
create an environment that is both safe and supportive for
women within the church, one that allows for women to
thrive while protecting them from abuse. Uh, this topic, sadly,
(02:10):
is not without controversy in our current cultural moment, However,
within Scripture it seems over and again God and His
Word affirms both the value and worth of women and
the importance of their dignity and role in advancing the
Great Commission. However, recent reports of church abuse, as well as, uh,
(02:32):
broader social trends have only added complexities to an already
tense conversation. I'll try to avoid the typical, uh, categories
and stereotypes and, uh, and, uh, derogatory, inflammatory statements and
try to have a cogent conversation with someone that I
(02:54):
tremendously respect who has thought deeply about this topic and
hopefully drive us to a point of biblical clarity. Joining
me today to talk about the role of women within
the church is Jen Wilkin. Jen is a Bible teacher
from Dallas, Texas. She's also an advocate for Bible literacy.
Her passion is to see others become articulate and committed
(03:17):
followers of Christ, with a clear understanding of why they
believe and what they believe. Grounded in the Word of God.
She's the author of multiple books, including the bestseller women
of the word. Jen, how are you today?
S2 (03:32):
I'm good. How are you, Pastor Chris?
S1 (03:35):
Well, I am good. And I think that we're going
to talk about one of the most important topics to Scripture,
one of the most most important topics to God's heart.
And I say that, Jen, because I'm a believer that
for any segment of the body of Christ, that you
don't cast a clear biblical vision for, you're actually leaving
(03:58):
them to be susceptible to deception or cultural influences. And
I think that's the case in this particular area as well. But, Jen,
I know how much you care for women, you work
with them. You're passionate about helping women to grow in
their love for Christ and their understanding of the word.
As you interact with the women that you help to
(04:22):
provide ministry to. What are some of their biggest concerns?
S3 (04:27):
Yeah, I think the concerns fall along a couple of
lines and they're related to one another. So first of all,
obviously women want like like anyone who might be vulnerable.
Women want to know that the church is a safe
place for them. And, um, and they also want to
know that the church is a place where they're going
to be able to serve. And they, they don't want
(04:48):
to to to just only be able to enter into
service in the church in roles that are nice additions
but not really necessary. Um, they, they want to partner
in the great commission work that is laid out before us.
And I think those two things are related, because if
a church has the sense that really the heavy lifting
of ministry is done by men, then that means that
(05:11):
women's voices will not be in some of the rooms
where the concerns of women and the vulnerability of women
needs to be discussed. So this is something that I
think has played into some of the the abuse crisis
that we're we're currently seeing in the church today is
just sort of a blind spot to, to to the
lived experiences of women, because so often leadership rooms in
(05:35):
the church are only populated by by men who have
their own experience of the world.
S1 (05:41):
You know, we all are, as Christians are called to
be beholden to the gospel. Jen, and I know you
agree with that, but we're not oblivious to what's happening
in a broader cultural moment and social trends that are
impacting this conversation. How much should that influence or impact
the way that we discuss this and go about thinking
(06:03):
about this topic?
S2 (06:06):
Oh, I think that it absolutely should.
S3 (06:08):
But I think we also have to weigh whether just
because something is playing out in the culture means that
it's by definition, bad. Sometimes we have blind spots in
the church that we've not responded to, that the culture
sees first. And that's actually to our grief that we
should see that. So certainly there's the whole conversation around
sex and sexuality that's happening in our culture right now. Uh,
(06:29):
you know, the Christian sexual ethic is, is is on
the line in many of those conversations. Um, questions about
what it means to be a woman, what it means
to be a man. Um, but also, there are questions
just about like, what do we do with abuse allegations?
Do we believe them? Do we not believe them? That's
something we would want to pay attention to. Just because
it's happening in the culture and the MeToo moment, doesn't
(06:52):
mean that it isn't something that the church needs to
think about as well. In fact, you can argue that
all of us need to think about that and figure
out how we should respond. Um, feminism would be another
example of this. Uh, so often, um, there's a concern,
a deep rooted concern that feminism not creep its way
into the church and tear down something that is, um,
(07:13):
that is held sacred. Um, but but at its root,
there are aspects of feminism that the church should be
paying attention to, in the sense that we do believe
that men and women are equal image bearers, you know?
But sometimes our practice doesn't always show that we believe that. Um, so,
so just because it's happening in the culture doesn't mean
that it's something to react against. It might be something
(07:35):
to weigh soberly and ask, has the church asked and
answered the right questions around this in a way that
promotes flourishing for men and women and children in its midst?
S1 (07:45):
You know, you talk about, ask and answer the right questions.
Where would you start with the ask? What question do
you believe needs to be at the foundation, let's just say,
of a church who wants to either through drafting a
statement or through changing Practices operationally. Um, what's the starting point?
S3 (08:11):
That is a really good question. I think that too often,
the foundational question that has been asked in regard to
looking around and seeing what's going on in the culture
is what are we afraid of? Um, and how do
we react against what we're afraid of or what what
do we stand to lose, and how do we protect
what we don't want to lose? Um, but I think
a better way to to frame up any question is
(08:33):
to ask, what is the beautiful vision? What's the vision
for human flourishing? What was it like in Eden? What
will it be like again in the New Jerusalem? And
how might we develop a thought pattern for how we
do our church that is reflective of that? So in
other words, we don't wake up in the morning with
(08:53):
our primary concern being how do we manage a Genesis
three world? We instead begin to ask the question of,
it's not that we don't think about that, but we
ask the question, overarching question of how do we look
toward the way that we were created to thrive. And
then how do our churches image that? And I think
in order to get to that question, specifically as it
(09:14):
relates to this issue of where do women fit into
the church, we need to look at the way that
that Jesus talks about family in the New Testament. Um,
his mother and brothers come looking for him when he's teaching, and, uh,
and he's told that they're outside of the room, and
he looks around the room and he says, who are
my mother and my brothers and my sisters? And then
(09:35):
he says, anyone who does the will of my father
is my mother and my brothers and my sisters. And
of course, we understand he's not denigrating his family of origin.
He's giving an expansive understanding of what family is meant
to be. And he's telling them that the body of
believers is the family. That's the true and better family.
(09:57):
It's the one that your nuclear family couldn't be for you,
or that your nuclear family hinted at in the ways
that it was positive place to be. So that's something
when you begin to examine it in the context of
the local church, you have to ask a different set
of questions then about about your church and about if
someone were looking at your church from the outside, does
it look like mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters contending
(10:18):
for the gospel?
S1 (10:20):
Yeah, so important and valuable that we start. I love
this with a Genesis one a hopeful, clear, beautiful vision
of God's intent. And I want to go back, if
you don't mind, to Genesis one, because I think there's
so much value even in us examining created order and, uh,
what God gives to us in His Word in Genesis 126,
(10:43):
Then God said, let us make man in our image,
after our likeness, and let them have dominion. And we
in Scripture goes on from there in verse 27, So
God created man in his own image, in the image
of God he created him, male and female. He created them.
What does that communicate to you about that beautiful vision
(11:07):
when you hear the words of Genesis one?
S3 (11:10):
Well, I think that it's, you know, what? It's it's
communicated to theologians of all ages is that the man
and the woman are created by the same God in
the same garden, and tasked with the same beautiful work
of ruling and subduing and and being fruitful and multiplying. And,
you know, it's called the cultural mandate. That's what we
we talk about when we talk about the work of
Genesis one, where he creates the male and female, you
(11:32):
get the completeness of the two of them being required
to accurately image God. And then the shared mission that's
given to them, uh, there is clearly no fruitfulness and
multiplication if the second human who's created is another man. Right. Yeah.
And so God creates the woman to stand shoulder to
(11:53):
shoulder with the man and and to walk forward with
the good work that he has given to them. And
if we don't pay good attention to that. Then we
fall flat when we get to the New Testament. Re-articulation
of of this moment, which we find in the Great Commission,
that we're supposed to go and into all the world
and make disciples, which is being fruitful and multiplying and
(12:16):
making more image bearers, just as Adam and Eve were
tasked with doing. And so if we miss what's happening
in Genesis one, then we won't recognize that the Great
Commission requires men and women standing shoulder to shoulder for
for its thriving every bit as much as the original
command in the garden did.
S1 (12:34):
Today we have Jen Wilkins. I'm so excited about it.
You stick with us much more to come right after this.
For centuries, Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan has helped Christians
navigate life's spiritual struggles. However, the 17th century English can
be challenging for modern readers. That's why I like to
(12:54):
sing you Pilgrim's Progress in today's English. Join Christian's journey
as he confronts temptations, doubts and challenges that reflect our
own spiritual battles. Request your copy when you give to support. Equip.
888644 4144 or visit equip radio.org. Chris Brooks here reminding
(13:15):
you that today's program is pre-recorded and we won't be
taking your calls. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks.
My guest today, Jim Wilkin, Bible teacher and advocate for
biblical literacy, has a passion for seeing God's people grow
in their devotion to the Lord and their love for
(13:38):
His Word. We're talking today about the role of women
in the church. And Jen, again, going back to our
previous conversation about Genesis one verses Genesis three, which you
framed as a beautiful vision versus, uh, what am I
afraid of type of approach. It seems like, um, taking
(13:59):
the Genesis one approach, uh, really frames the conversation in, um,
in an invitational tone that, um, we, we as the church,
recognize the vital importance of women to the mission of God.
And we want that to be a shared vision as
(14:23):
God intended. Whereas the Genesis Genesis three approach seems to
me to have the ethos of tolerance. Like we will
tolerate women. Um, but there's not really a sense of
value and invitation, am I? Am I wrong in the
assessment of tone there?
S3 (14:45):
I think that that is often the way that it
plays out. But it's not just a tolerance. It can
also be an avoidance. Right? Um, if you're living in
a Genesis three mindset, then it means that, um, you
will typically view women as there to potentially take power
or to be sexual temptations. And neither of these is
(15:07):
the way that things were in Genesis one and two, clearly.
And so it doesn't mean that we live oblivious to
the fact that sin has entered into the world, but
it does mean that we don't frame every single decision
around mitigating risk. Um, you know, it means that we recognize, yes,
there are going to be times when men and women
(15:27):
are interacting with one another in ways that we would
not want, um, but that you you don't build your
church ethos on on risk. You build it on, on
Christian love for one another. And when Jesus articulates the
vision of family in the New Testament, I think that's
what he's saying. If if we did treat one another
as brothers and sisters instead of as threats or potential
(15:51):
sex partners, then the church would look radically different. Not
just than from the way that it might currently look now,
but also radically different from the culture around us. Because
you want to talk about a cultural moment. The culture
is losing its category for friendship. Um, certainly, you know,
there's no sense of having a strong emotion for another person,
(16:13):
whether of the same sex or of of the opposite sex,
without it being categorized as romantic or sexualized. And so
imagine if the church recaptured a vision for brothers and sisters,
and we actually treated one another with mutual respect and
dignity as a brother and sister, do we actually cheered
for one another instead of holding each other at arm's length? Um,
(16:33):
imagine how we might actually begin to look like the
city on a hill that Jesus describes us to be.
S1 (16:40):
I want to talk to pastors for a moment because,
you know, I'm a pastor and, um, I empathize deeply
with pastors who have a sincere desire, if you will, to, um,
create an affirming and biblically faithful culture for women to thrive, uh,
thrive within uh, but yet wondering where do we start
(17:03):
and how do we approach this without weighing into unnecessary, uh,
controversy or confusion? So I guess I'm asking, what advice
would you give to pastors who do desire to create
an affirming and biblically faithful culture?
S3 (17:21):
Yeah, I would say think through who the women are
that you, um, see as stakeholders in the conversation, but
maybe not angry stakeholders. Right. And those women are out there.
There are women in our churches who are praying and
hoping and patiently trying to raise questions around this. So
(17:41):
people who are partners, advocates and then, um, find time
to sit and talk to them, listen to their concerns. Um,
and in one case, like one of the things that
I was able to do at my own church that
was that was really helpful was we gathered some anonymous feedback,
like we gathered some women who fit this description. I
and another woman did with, you know, with the agreement
(18:02):
of of our elders. And we asked them some questions.
We said, what's it like to be a woman on
staff at our church? Or we said, what's it like
to be a woman at our church? Um, and we
just received their feedback on that. And, and then we
just laid it all out. And, um, it was it
was tough to hear. It was tough to hear, but
it was an important starting point in the conversation, because
(18:23):
what I find is often that a pastor views this
as a theological intellectual discussion, which it certainly is, but
it's also a deeply pastoral one. And if we don't
start by having our hearts broken a little bit by
over what the current state of things is, or even
our hearts broken a lot by over what the current
state is, then we won't be properly motivated to evaluate
(18:46):
the theological question and the philosophical question around how we
do ministry, and then that practical question of how it
plays out in the everyday life of the church. So
I would say, who do you? Who do you know
who you can have a conversation with? I would urge
that it not necessarily be the wife of someone who
is a stakeholder in in your church leadership, because she
will not probably enter into that conversation as someone who's
(19:08):
going to offer any disruptive feedback. She will probably seek
to affirm what's already happening. So a trusted, disruptive presence
is what you're looking for to start the conversation, to
move you toward seeing seeing how women are experiencing your church.
S1 (19:24):
Yeah. I mean, I think about that question broadly, even
beyond women, right. Just the whole thought of how is
someone experiencing our church? I'm telling you from a pastoral perspective,
from a leadership perspective, those can be some of the
most edifying conversations, but also anxiety producing if you're not careful. Um,
(19:46):
and so I do think that this whole thought of
trusted people is really important. I think that going into
those conversations with a heart that sincerely wants to honor God. Uh,
to me, the foundation of it all has to be the, uh,
supremacy of Christ in all things, uh, the advancement of
(20:09):
the gospel, uh, the desire to honor God. Like those
things have to be more important than ego confirmation bias
or any of those things that will lead us to
either treat a disruptive voice with hostility or to, uh,
ignore it altogether.
S3 (20:29):
It's believing that the that that disruptive voice is a
good faith actor in the conversation. And it's recognizing that
in Genesis two, when God makes his stunning statement that
it is not good and follows it up with for
the man to be alone, that there might be a
way in our local church leadership structures in which men
are actually profoundly alone when it comes to that question,
(20:51):
and that it might be profoundly not good that they are,
and to begin welcoming female voices into spaces where they
can give input on things that just might be misses.
S1 (21:00):
You know, you bring up something very important I think
is often overlooked. There is a profound impact on men
as well, like when we're talking about the role of
women in the church. I think the mistake or misnomer
that could be made, Jen, is to think that this
only impacts women, but maybe just delved a little bit
(21:20):
deeper into that thought. In what ways does ambiguity or
even missing it in this area impact men?
S3 (21:30):
Well, so if you go back to the metaphor of family,
I think it gets really clear. Imagine if you had
a family in your church where the husband seemed like
he was just, you know, living his best life, but
the wife was not. She's in a deep state of depression.
Or maybe you never see her. You only see him
at church with the kids, and you'd be deeply concerned
(21:52):
about how that home was functioning, right? And you wouldn't.
You would later, probably, as you dug into what was
going on in that home, recognize that the husband was
probably not a super healthy person if the wife is
struggling the way that she is, even though he might
have given the appearance of it. And I think what
we sometimes miss is that there's no such thing as
a church in which the men are flourishing and the
(22:14):
women are not, that. For in order for men to
truly flourish, both men and women must flourish in partnership.
And that the opposite is true as well. There's no
such thing as a church in which the women are
flourishing and the men are not. But that the vision
for human flourishing, um, does not center on one one
gender and the other not. That's just not that's not
what the Bible paints a picture for us. So then
(22:36):
we have to begin to ask some questions about how
we've defined a healthy church. Um, and in the same
way that if you looked at someone's home and there
was a single parent, authoritarian dad and children who toed
the line and an absentee mother. You would be panicked
at how those children were doing in the home. We
might also want to look at our local churches and ask,
(22:59):
does our church function that way? Uh, do we have
mothers in the church? Visible women who people can look
to for help and guidance? Uh, women who have a
perspective that's much needed in the direction of church takes
so good.
S1 (23:14):
Again, the conversation today is with Jim Wilkin. Uh, and
we're talking about the role of women in the church.
You can find out more by going to our website,
equip Radio.com. I do invite you to join the conversation
by utilizing our social media platforms. We want to create
safe spaces within the social media world where important conversations
(23:37):
can happen with a heart towards honoring God and one another.
So please go to Equip Radio on Facebook and Twitter
with your questions and comments. Uh, Jan, it seems to
me that one of the, uh, important conversations we need
to have prescriptive and descriptive passages. As a Bible teacher,
(23:59):
how do you explain the difference to a person who
may not know the difference between prescriptive and descriptive? Can
we just start there? What's the difference between those types
of passages?
S3 (24:10):
Yeah. So a lot of knowing whether a passage is
prescriptive or descriptive is knowing where it fits in the
book that you're pulling it out of as a whole.
But a prescriptive passage is one that is telling us
what we should do. And a descriptive passage is one
that is just describing how something was done without setting
out any kind of necessarily a precedent or a guide
(24:31):
for how things are to continue to be done in
light of that story. Sometimes descriptive passages are telling us
how things ought not to be done. So it's important
to know where you find yourself in any given moment.
S1 (24:42):
So on, on any array of topics on the social
life of the church will have in Scripture both categories
of text we'll have in Scripture categories that simply describe
historically how individuals within the church related to one another.
That does not set out normative expectations, but more again,
(25:06):
just capturing almost from a historical perspective what happened. And
then you'll have texts that are really, again, commands. They're
directives that are given to us. And so we want
to examine what that looks like when we come back
from this short break. Uh, as it pertains to the
role of women, the valuable, uh, wonderful and significant role
(25:30):
of women in the advancement of the gospel within the
local church. Jim Wilkin is my guest, and I'm so
grateful for that. I'm grateful for you listening as well.
All of this is made possible by God's grace and
your generosity. If the program has been a blessing to you,
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(25:54):
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(26:15):
Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded.
While we won't be taking calls, we do want to
connect with you on social media. Hey there friends, welcome
back to Equipped with Chris Brooks. Hope you're enjoying this
fascinating conversation with Bible teacher and author Jen Wilkins. She
(26:38):
is not only an advocate for biblical literacy, but she
is someone who loves the local church deeply, and I'm
grateful for her. Joining me today to have this conversation
about the role of women within the church. And I
hope that it is so encouraging to you that you
share this conversation across your social platforms as well. Please
(27:00):
do so. You can find out more at our website
at npr.org. That's equipped radio jam. We've covered a lot
of ground, but I want to go back to what
we were discussing before this last break. It seems to
me that so often, if there is, uh, maybe a
difference of view in this area, it seems to be, uh,
(27:22):
the tension between correlating the prescriptive verses on this like a,
a Roman 16 that describes so much of Paul's companions
and coworkers and fellow laborers in the gospel, both men
and women and the descriptive passages like a first Timothy
(27:44):
two nine through 11, or First Corinthians 14, where there
seems to be some restrictions and prohibitions there. How do
you correlate those things broadly? And what advice does a
Bible teacher do you give when there seems to be
a tension between prescriptive and descriptive?
S3 (28:04):
Well, it's actually not my job to tell everyone how
to do that. I mean, it kind of is. It's
my job to give people tools, you know, in the
spaces where I'm teaching Bible literature. But this is the
good work that every local church should be doing. And
I think that there needs to be an honest acknowledgement
that some of the prescriptive passages that we find have
(28:24):
been interpreted in various different ways by good faith actors,
and that those that it's possible to be theologically conservative
and land in different places on these passages. But I
think another Bible literacy skill related to doing the work
around this is to beware of the cherry picking element
(28:44):
that comes in so often. So in other words, why
is it that we all can think of two or
3 or 4 places where Paul has said something as
the main verses in this conversation, but we don't think
of passages like Romans 16 as having anything important to
say to us. You know, Romans 16 is a at
(29:05):
length a description of a church that functions as the
family of God, where Paul literally refers to the women
in that passage as his sisters, or who has been
like a mother to me. And so Paul has an
understanding of of church mothers, and he has an understanding
of church sisters, and these are women who are not
(29:26):
functioning in roles that are ancillary. Their work is described
as pivotal. Uh, you know Phoebe. Phoebe underwrites, uh, so
much of his work. And so, um, I think that
we need to ask, why have we settled in on
these two or 3 or 4 verses and place the
emphasis there? It's not that we don't want to consider
(29:47):
those verses, but they need to live within the full
scope of what the Bible is saying about the nature
of the church as a whole.
S1 (29:54):
Yeah, I appreciate the way you handled that. And again,
my question more was to broadly on any topic or subject,
you know, how do we how do we approach this?
But I think your answer was really well framed. And,
you know, part of the way I've thought about this, Jan, um,
just as a pastor in shepherding our church family is
(30:15):
to say that the descriptive passages gives us commands and directives,
but oftentimes we're left with the question of, but what
does this look like lived out? And the prescriptive passages
often answer that question. This is what that command looks
like lived out. And if we don't see those as
(30:37):
being in tension with one another. If we start with
the presupposition that the Bible is harmonious, that it is congruent,
that it is free from contradiction or error. If we
start with that in particular interior to often one author.
I mean, you're talking often, uh, the debate ends up being, unfortunately,
(31:01):
pitting Paul against Paul, you know, right, in a lot
of ways. And so, uh, it just to me seems
that if I approach it from saying, okay, clearly there
is a command here and I might not be fully
clear on what is being commanded or I might not
be fully clear on, well, how then does that look
(31:22):
lived out? But then when you couple that with some
of the prescriptive passages, I think it illuminates it and
it says, okay, all right. This then, is how it's
lived out, where we can be biblically faithful, while at
the same time affirming and creating environments for flourishing. I
want to shift the topic a little bit, if I could,
(31:43):
to talk about women who might be at a church,
who they love, they appreciate deeply, but a church that
is either through avoidance or just a myriad of reasons
lacking theological clarity in this area. How would you encourage
that woman to work well with her pastor or church
(32:08):
leadership to help to bring theological clarity?
S3 (32:13):
Yeah, well, I think the first step is obviously to pray,
to ask the Lord for wisdom and to ask the
Lord to provide an opening, uh, to have that conversation.
And I think also to ask the Lord to give
her eyes for someone who might be an ally in
that conversation, uh, perhaps a man who, um, who is
seen and valued, who also perceives that this is a need.
(32:36):
And then I think the first point of pressure, the
first sort of like, hey, help me with this needs
to be to defuse any of the the typical fears
around this, like women are wanting to take over. They
want to be they want to be the pastor. They
want to preach on Sunday. You know, it's like, wait
a minute, wait a minute. Let's just back off of
that and just say, you know, can we just talk
(32:57):
about whether whether our our expression of ministry demonstrates clearly
that men and women are valued equally before the Lord,
even though we would see distinction in the way that
that value plays out in the local church. Um, I
think that often men who are in leadership in the
church don't recognize that clarity is kindness around this issue. Um,
(33:19):
that really, you know, you can land, you know, a
woman is willing to be in a church that lands
in a more, let's say, restrictive space than she might
in her reading of the scripture. Um, because at least
it lets her know how she can operate in that space.
But when we don't land anywhere and we just assume
that everyone can figure it out on their own, it
(33:40):
means that women in our churches are subject to the
interpretation of passages of whoever is the the man who's
leading in that room. They have to chameleon themselves into
a hundred different iterations of this. And that's a very
stressful way to to be a church member. And so
clarity is kindness. Whether you land more conservatively or more graciously,
(34:02):
more open handedly on this. Um, you have to land somewhere.
And so that's a lot of what women can communicate to,
to men who are in leadership is like, hey, I'm
not coming in here to tell you where you should land.
So much as I'm asking you, please do the hard
work and I want to partner with you in it
if you're willing to, to bring me into the conversation. Um,
(34:23):
but you've got to land somewhere. That's clear. Otherwise, we're
just going to continue to to fumble through this, and
women will feel like there's risk anytime they do offer
up their gifts in a particular setting.
S1 (34:35):
One of the things that's been most helpful for me
as a pastor elder at our church, uh, is one
of them is, um, great resources. Jan, uh, it is
always like a huge blessing when any of the members of,
of our local church, uh, share with me or any
of the other pastors, elders, leaders. Hey, here's a book
(34:56):
that has really impacted my heart. And when it's shared in, uh,
not a, um, not a critical way, not a way of, uh, rebuke,
if you will, or criticism, but in a way that is, hey,
this has been super helpful for me. Um, I want
to encourage you to, to read it as well. Or
or I'm wanting to give this to you. Uh, man,
(35:19):
it could be a huge blessing as well. I, I'm
tempted to want to, uh, give a bibliography of books
that have really been impactful for me or for you
to do the same. But my my concern in doing
that is to, uh. Uh, maybe overly influence or take
(35:40):
away from what you've championed, and that is that local
churches need to do this work themselves, and they need
to come together as leaders. But I will say this
before we go to our last break of the day,
there has been tremendous thought put into this discussion, and
there are wonderful resources that we should read, and we
(36:03):
should not be afraid to read broadly, to read perspectives
and counter perspectives, all with an open Bible and in
rigorous discussion, together with a hopeful heart to cast a
beautiful vision grounded in the gospel. And I pray that
this conversation is helping you towards that end. Jen is
(36:24):
going to stay with me for one final segment where
I want to talk about why it's so important for
women to receive biblical and theological training. Don't go anywhere.
Much more to come. Next up on equip. Are you
struggling in your spiritual journey? Does the path seem confusing?
Pilgrim's progress in today's English might be exactly what you need.
(36:46):
This modern version of John Bunyan's classical allegory illustrates the challenges, temptations,
and victories every believer experiences, all in language that you
can easily understand and apply to your life. Request your
copy with the gift of any amount. To support equip
this month, call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio.org. Today's
(37:12):
program has been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open.
Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. Jim Wilkins is
my guest today. I want to encourage you to find
out more by going to our website. Equip radio.org that's
equip radio o g. And not too long ago I
(37:35):
was having a conversation with, uh, Tim Challies uh, from Canada,
and we were talking about how sad it is that, um,
theological and biblical training for women is, in some parts
of the body of Christ, a controversial topic, um, which I,
which I find, um, mind blowing. Really. Uh, I want
(37:59):
to kind of shift to that. Why is it so important?
And why are you such a huge advocate for biblical
literacy and theological training for women?
S3 (38:11):
Well, um, it goes back to the metaphor that I
pointed out earlier of the church as the family of God. Um,
we would not want there to be no church mothers
in our church. We don't want our church to be
a place where there's no spiritual leadership coming from women,
where a younger woman can look toward that and see
this is what Christian maturity looks like. Uh, and even
(38:33):
younger men can look toward that and see, this is
what Christian maturity looks like in a church, mother. Um,
we don't want our local churches to be motherless. And
here's why. Because when you have a motherless local church, um,
women in particular, don't stop looking for someone to be
a spiritual mother to them. They go and look outside
of the church for that. And so, you know, there's
(38:56):
actually been in the last several years, some women who
had large public platforms who have gone through very public
deconstruction of their faith. And it has had a dramatic
impact on the thinking of many women in the local church.
But the names of those women, when I asked them
of pastors, many pastors have never even heard of these
women don't know who these women are. Um, and I'm
(39:17):
not going to mention their names now because I don't
want to draw ridicule toward them. I think they've suffered
enough of that. They're allowed to evaluate their faith. Um,
but the question that I think we have to ask is,
do we want to outsource church mothers to half of
our congregations? Because it means that we don't actually know
who is impacting our our women, you know, theologically or
(39:39):
even philosophically or practically in the way that they live
their lives. And I say this as someone who is
a person who churches tend to outsource their women to.
I am a head on a screen and a lot
of churches teaching the Bible to women. And I actually
I understand the value of what that does, you know,
being able to create those resources and get them into
(39:59):
the local church. But I am not a substitute for
an embodied female in your local church who knows her
Bible and is able to help others know their Bibles
as well. Um, you don't want me to be that either,
even if I'm a positive influence on your women, which
I hope that I am. So I think, you know,
the question that we have to ask is, do we
(40:21):
want motherless churches or churches with mothers? And if they
have mothers, don't. We want them to be mothers who
are skilled in handling the scriptures and who understand theology
and are able to impart that to the next generation,
because it's going to impact every area of ministry in
your church.
S1 (40:35):
Yeah, I say amen and amen to everything you just said.
I also would just simply add that there is no
asterisk by the command of acts one and eight to
be his witnesses, that men and women are called to
spread the gospel, to share the good and glorious news
(40:58):
of a resurrected Savior who has come to provide the grace,
the mercy, and the salvation that our souls need. And
when we are not training women well in the gospel,
we are in many ways rendering them ill equipped to
be able to bear witness to their neighbors, their coworkers,
their friends of who Jesus is and what he has
(41:21):
come to accomplish. We need women who understand the word,
rightfully enough, to be able to rightfully divide it and
to be able to not only commend it, but defend
it as well. And so I just say amen to
everything you just said. I also want to talk about
the flip side of the coin, though, Jan. And maybe
(41:42):
this is a place where we can, um, land the plane.
There is a generation of younger women that I've interacted
with that seem to be somewhat exhausted, uh, by this,
maybe even cynical would be a way of describing at
least the mood, uh, and that maybe is even asking
(42:03):
why church? Like church? Why bother with the whole thing?
I'll just utilize my gifts, talents, and abilities outside in
secular institutions. What apologetic would you give to that generation
or women who are feeling cynicism towards the church?
S3 (42:23):
Honestly, I can understand. I can understand it. They've been,
you know, they've been viewed as a threat instead of
as an asset. Um, and I think that I would,
I would challenge them to consider whether what many women
are actually driven to think is that a theological trade
is necessary for them to use their gifts in the
local church. Um, so I would I would urge them
(42:44):
to do the hard work around theology piece and ask
if that's true. I personally believe that, um, that the
theological piece within a conservative framework that there is there
is ample space for women to use their gifts in
the local church. The question of whether the the pastor
of that church recognizes that or not is another one entirely. Um,
(43:05):
but I think those are the women who potentially can
go and try to affect change in their churches. It
is a sadness to me that the church has basically hemorrhaged, uh,
a generation of women who are capable, who understand what
it is to be treated as an equal image bearer
in their workplace, and often in their own families. But
(43:26):
in the church, they find that they're treated as second
class citizens. So I think that I would urge them
to do the theological work themselves, to make the appeal
to the church, whose theology is most closely in alignment
with their understanding of the scriptures. Um, and then if
the local church is not a place where their where
their gifts are being welcomed in, then it doesn't mean
(43:46):
that their gifts are not needful, because the Lord does
not give gifts that are not needful. So, um, find
ways to serve, uh, in other spaces. Now that breaks
my heart to say that that's not the way that
it should be, but that's the way that it can
be so often for women. Um, my greater exhortation would
be to, to pastors themselves to ask, let's say that
(44:07):
you hold a pure theology. Does your practice show a
beautiful vision, or is it a practice that is effectively
erring on the side of caution at every turn when
it comes to utilizing the gifts of women. Because if
it's erring on the side of caution, which is so
commonly the the the case, it means that you're like
a car where the wheels are constantly pulling to the right. Um,
(44:30):
and that means that you're going to be veering toward
actually something that's equally as dangerous as veering all the
way to the left. So, um, to be aware of
whether we have charted a course that might actually be
overly restrictive because we're operating from a place of fear
instead of one that seeks to run a straight line
because we're operating from a place of love.
S1 (44:52):
Jan, I know that these are always, um, sometimes treacherous
waters to weed through and wade through, but you do
a really graceful job with it, and I'm super encouraged
by that. And I'm grateful for you. I do want
to end on a positive note by saying, there are
so many good churches out there that are reflecting that
(45:13):
beautiful vision that have remained faithful to the gospel while
creating cultures. A culture within their church that equips, affirms,
and mobilizes women for their calling in Christ. And I'd
be remiss if I did not acknowledge the many, many
churches and leaders that are committed to such a way
(45:38):
of ministry within their local communities. So thank you, uh,
for the work that you're doing. And again, I want
to say to all of my listeners, find out more
at our website at Equip Radio. Thanks, Jen, for carving
out an hour to hang out with us today.
S3 (45:56):
Thanks for the good conversation.
S1 (45:58):
Folks, I am so grateful that we were able to
cover so much ground, but I know that we are
just beginning to scratch the, uh, the surface in in
this conversation, but I pray that this would be a
resource that you could somehow use and leverage for the
good of your church, for the women within it, for
(46:19):
the men and leaders to be able to begin to
bring clarity out of everything that was said today. Maybe
the thing that touched my heart the most is that
clarity is kindness. Wherever there is confusion, it gives opportunity
for our enemy, our adversary, to bring division or even
to hinder the work and the mission of the local church.
(46:42):
So I pray that you will move towards clarity, and
one that allows God to be glorified in the lives
and relationships of both men and women. And I hope
that we here at Equip can be a partner with
you in that process. For any of our conversations, just
go to our website, equip radio.org and until we're together
again next time, remember equip with Chris Brooks is a
(47:04):
production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Please enjoy this encore edition of equipped with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equip
with Chris Brooks. I am absolutely thrilled that you've joined
us today. Can you do me a favor? Strap on
your seat belt. We're going to navigate through the contours
of culture, as always, with the lens of the biblical
(00:38):
worldview on. But before we do that, let me remind you,
this is the day that the Lord has made. He
has given it as a gift so that you and
I can rejoice and be glad in it. So let's
do just that. Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul.
Let's rejoice in the Lord always. And again I say,
rejoice with that. I want to welcome you into what
will be a very educational and hopefully healing edition of Equip.
(01:02):
I want to start by saying thank you to all
of our friends and supporters who prayerfully and financially partner
with the Ministry. I recognize every day that we could
not be here if it were not for God's grace
and your generosity. So thank you for adding fuel to
the engine of our mission here at Equip, which is
to equip Christians to more effectively live, share, and defend
(01:25):
their faith. You can find out more about the program
by going to our website. Equip radio.org. Or if the
Lord should speak to your heart about partnering with us,
simply call 888644 4144. That's 888644 4144. Well, today I
want to talk about one of the most important conversations
that's happening within the church. Uh, as we as we speak.
(01:49):
And it's how can we as Christians in particular, Christian leaders,
create an environment that is both safe and supportive for
women within the church, one that allows for women to
thrive while protecting them from abuse. Uh, this topic, sadly,
(02:10):
is not without controversy in our current cultural moment, However,
within Scripture it seems over and again God and His
Word affirms both the value and worth of women and
the importance of their dignity and role in advancing the
Great Commission. However, recent reports of church abuse, as well as, uh,
(02:32):
broader social trends have only added complexities to an already
tense conversation. I'll try to avoid the typical, uh, categories
and stereotypes and, uh, and, uh, derogatory, inflammatory statements and
try to have a cogent conversation with someone that I
(02:54):
tremendously respect who has thought deeply about this topic and
hopefully drive us to a point of biblical clarity. Joining
me today to talk about the role of women within
the church is Jen Wilkin. Jen is a Bible teacher
from Dallas, Texas. She's also an advocate for Bible literacy.
Her passion is to see others become articulate and committed
(03:17):
followers of Christ, with a clear understanding of why they
believe and what they believe. Grounded in the Word of God.
She's the author of multiple books, including the bestseller women
of the word. Jen, how are you today?
S2 (03:32):
I'm good. How are you, Pastor Chris?
S1 (03:35):
Well, I am good. And I think that we're going
to talk about one of the most important topics to Scripture,
one of the most most important topics to God's heart.
And I say that, Jen, because I'm a believer that
for any segment of the body of Christ, that you
don't cast a clear biblical vision for, you're actually leaving
(03:58):
them to be susceptible to deception or cultural influences. And
I think that's the case in this particular area as well. But, Jen,
I know how much you care for women, you work
with them. You're passionate about helping women to grow in
their love for Christ and their understanding of the word.
As you interact with the women that you help to
(04:22):
provide ministry to. What are some of their biggest concerns?
S3 (04:27):
Yeah, I think the concerns fall along a couple of
lines and they're related to one another. So first of all,
obviously women want like like anyone who might be vulnerable.
Women want to know that the church is a safe
place for them. And, um, and they also want to
know that the church is a place where they're going
to be able to serve. And they, they don't want
(04:48):
to to to just only be able to enter into
service in the church in roles that are nice additions
but not really necessary. Um, they, they want to partner
in the great commission work that is laid out before us.
And I think those two things are related, because if
a church has the sense that really the heavy lifting
of ministry is done by men, then that means that
(05:11):
women's voices will not be in some of the rooms
where the concerns of women and the vulnerability of women
needs to be discussed. So this is something that I
think has played into some of the the abuse crisis
that we're we're currently seeing in the church today is
just sort of a blind spot to, to to the
lived experiences of women, because so often leadership rooms in
(05:35):
the church are only populated by by men who have
their own experience of the world.
S1 (05:41):
You know, we all are, as Christians are called to
be beholden to the gospel. Jen, and I know you
agree with that, but we're not oblivious to what's happening
in a broader cultural moment and social trends that are
impacting this conversation. How much should that influence or impact
the way that we discuss this and go about thinking
(06:03):
about this topic?
S2 (06:06):
Oh, I think that it absolutely should.
S3 (06:08):
But I think we also have to weigh whether just
because something is playing out in the culture means that
it's by definition, bad. Sometimes we have blind spots in
the church that we've not responded to, that the culture
sees first. And that's actually to our grief that we
should see that. So certainly there's the whole conversation around
sex and sexuality that's happening in our culture right now. Uh,
(06:29):
you know, the Christian sexual ethic is, is is on
the line in many of those conversations. Um, questions about
what it means to be a woman, what it means
to be a man. Um, but also, there are questions
just about like, what do we do with abuse allegations?
Do we believe them? Do we not believe them? That's
something we would want to pay attention to. Just because
it's happening in the culture and the MeToo moment, doesn't
(06:52):
mean that it isn't something that the church needs to
think about as well. In fact, you can argue that
all of us need to think about that and figure
out how we should respond. Um, feminism would be another
example of this. Uh, so often, um, there's a concern,
a deep rooted concern that feminism not creep its way
into the church and tear down something that is, um,
(07:13):
that is held sacred. Um, but but at its root,
there are aspects of feminism that the church should be
paying attention to, in the sense that we do believe
that men and women are equal image bearers, you know?
But sometimes our practice doesn't always show that we believe that. Um, so,
so just because it's happening in the culture doesn't mean
that it's something to react against. It might be something
(07:35):
to weigh soberly and ask, has the church asked and
answered the right questions around this in a way that
promotes flourishing for men and women and children in its midst?
S1 (07:45):
You know, you talk about, ask and answer the right questions.
Where would you start with the ask? What question do
you believe needs to be at the foundation, let's just say,
of a church who wants to either through drafting a
statement or through changing Practices operationally. Um, what's the starting point?
S3 (08:11):
That is a really good question. I think that too often,
the foundational question that has been asked in regard to
looking around and seeing what's going on in the culture
is what are we afraid of? Um, and how do
we react against what we're afraid of or what what
do we stand to lose, and how do we protect
what we don't want to lose? Um, but I think
a better way to to frame up any question is
(08:33):
to ask, what is the beautiful vision? What's the vision
for human flourishing? What was it like in Eden? What
will it be like again in the New Jerusalem? And
how might we develop a thought pattern for how we
do our church that is reflective of that? So in
other words, we don't wake up in the morning with
(08:53):
our primary concern being how do we manage a Genesis
three world? We instead begin to ask the question of,
it's not that we don't think about that, but we
ask the question, overarching question of how do we look
toward the way that we were created to thrive. And
then how do our churches image that? And I think
in order to get to that question, specifically as it
(09:14):
relates to this issue of where do women fit into
the church, we need to look at the way that
that Jesus talks about family in the New Testament. Um,
his mother and brothers come looking for him when he's teaching, and, uh,
and he's told that they're outside of the room, and
he looks around the room and he says, who are
my mother and my brothers and my sisters? And then
(09:35):
he says, anyone who does the will of my father
is my mother and my brothers and my sisters. And
of course, we understand he's not denigrating his family of origin.
He's giving an expansive understanding of what family is meant
to be. And he's telling them that the body of
believers is the family. That's the true and better family.
(09:57):
It's the one that your nuclear family couldn't be for you,
or that your nuclear family hinted at in the ways
that it was positive place to be. So that's something
when you begin to examine it in the context of
the local church, you have to ask a different set
of questions then about about your church and about if
someone were looking at your church from the outside, does
it look like mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters contending
(10:18):
for the gospel?
S1 (10:20):
Yeah, so important and valuable that we start. I love
this with a Genesis one a hopeful, clear, beautiful vision
of God's intent. And I want to go back, if
you don't mind, to Genesis one, because I think there's
so much value even in us examining created order and, uh,
what God gives to us in His Word in Genesis 126,
(10:43):
Then God said, let us make man in our image,
after our likeness, and let them have dominion. And we
in Scripture goes on from there in verse 27, So
God created man in his own image, in the image
of God he created him, male and female. He created them.
What does that communicate to you about that beautiful vision
(11:07):
when you hear the words of Genesis one?
S3 (11:10):
Well, I think that it's, you know, what? It's it's
communicated to theologians of all ages is that the man
and the woman are created by the same God in
the same garden, and tasked with the same beautiful work
of ruling and subduing and and being fruitful and multiplying. And,
you know, it's called the cultural mandate. That's what we
we talk about when we talk about the work of
Genesis one, where he creates the male and female, you
(11:32):
get the completeness of the two of them being required
to accurately image God. And then the shared mission that's
given to them, uh, there is clearly no fruitfulness and
multiplication if the second human who's created is another man. Right. Yeah.
And so God creates the woman to stand shoulder to
(11:53):
shoulder with the man and and to walk forward with
the good work that he has given to them. And
if we don't pay good attention to that. Then we
fall flat when we get to the New Testament. Re-articulation
of of this moment, which we find in the Great Commission,
that we're supposed to go and into all the world
and make disciples, which is being fruitful and multiplying and
(12:16):
making more image bearers, just as Adam and Eve were
tasked with doing. And so if we miss what's happening
in Genesis one, then we won't recognize that the Great
Commission requires men and women standing shoulder to shoulder for
for its thriving every bit as much as the original
command in the garden did.
S1 (12:34):
Today we have Jen Wilkins. I'm so excited about it.
You stick with us much more to come right after this.
For centuries, Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan has helped Christians
navigate life's spiritual struggles. However, the 17th century English can
be challenging for modern readers. That's why I like to
(12:54):
sing you Pilgrim's Progress in today's English. Join Christian's journey
as he confronts temptations, doubts and challenges that reflect our
own spiritual battles. Request your copy when you give to support. Equip.
888644 4144 or visit equip radio.org. Chris Brooks here reminding
(13:15):
you that today's program is pre-recorded and we won't be
taking your calls. Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks.
My guest today, Jim Wilkin, Bible teacher and advocate for
biblical literacy, has a passion for seeing God's people grow
in their devotion to the Lord and their love for
(13:38):
His Word. We're talking today about the role of women
in the church. And Jen, again, going back to our
previous conversation about Genesis one verses Genesis three, which you
framed as a beautiful vision versus, uh, what am I
afraid of type of approach. It seems like, um, taking
(13:59):
the Genesis one approach, uh, really frames the conversation in, um,
in an invitational tone that, um, we, we as the church,
recognize the vital importance of women to the mission of God.
And we want that to be a shared vision as
(14:23):
God intended. Whereas the Genesis Genesis three approach seems to
me to have the ethos of tolerance. Like we will
tolerate women. Um, but there's not really a sense of
value and invitation, am I? Am I wrong in the
assessment of tone there?
S3 (14:45):
I think that that is often the way that it
plays out. But it's not just a tolerance. It can
also be an avoidance. Right? Um, if you're living in
a Genesis three mindset, then it means that, um, you
will typically view women as there to potentially take power
or to be sexual temptations. And neither of these is
(15:07):
the way that things were in Genesis one and two, clearly.
And so it doesn't mean that we live oblivious to
the fact that sin has entered into the world, but
it does mean that we don't frame every single decision
around mitigating risk. Um, you know, it means that we recognize, yes,
there are going to be times when men and women
(15:27):
are interacting with one another in ways that we would
not want, um, but that you you don't build your
church ethos on on risk. You build it on, on
Christian love for one another. And when Jesus articulates the
vision of family in the New Testament, I think that's
what he's saying. If if we did treat one another
as brothers and sisters instead of as threats or potential
(15:51):
sex partners, then the church would look radically different. Not
just than from the way that it might currently look now,
but also radically different from the culture around us. Because
you want to talk about a cultural moment. The culture
is losing its category for friendship. Um, certainly, you know,
there's no sense of having a strong emotion for another person,
(16:13):
whether of the same sex or of of the opposite sex,
without it being categorized as romantic or sexualized. And so
imagine if the church recaptured a vision for brothers and sisters,
and we actually treated one another with mutual respect and
dignity as a brother and sister, do we actually cheered
for one another instead of holding each other at arm's length? Um,
(16:33):
imagine how we might actually begin to look like the
city on a hill that Jesus describes us to be.
S1 (16:40):
I want to talk to pastors for a moment because,
you know, I'm a pastor and, um, I empathize deeply
with pastors who have a sincere desire, if you will, to, um,
create an affirming and biblically faithful culture for women to thrive, uh,
thrive within uh, but yet wondering where do we start
(17:03):
and how do we approach this without weighing into unnecessary, uh,
controversy or confusion? So I guess I'm asking, what advice
would you give to pastors who do desire to create
an affirming and biblically faithful culture?
S3 (17:21):
Yeah, I would say think through who the women are
that you, um, see as stakeholders in the conversation, but
maybe not angry stakeholders. Right. And those women are out there.
There are women in our churches who are praying and
hoping and patiently trying to raise questions around this. So
(17:41):
people who are partners, advocates and then, um, find time
to sit and talk to them, listen to their concerns. Um,
and in one case, like one of the things that
I was able to do at my own church that
was that was really helpful was we gathered some anonymous feedback,
like we gathered some women who fit this description. I
and another woman did with, you know, with the agreement
(18:02):
of of our elders. And we asked them some questions.
We said, what's it like to be a woman on
staff at our church? Or we said, what's it like
to be a woman at our church? Um, and we
just received their feedback on that. And, and then we
just laid it all out. And, um, it was it
was tough to hear. It was tough to hear, but
it was an important starting point in the conversation, because
(18:23):
what I find is often that a pastor views this
as a theological intellectual discussion, which it certainly is, but
it's also a deeply pastoral one. And if we don't
start by having our hearts broken a little bit by
over what the current state of things is, or even
our hearts broken a lot by over what the current
state is, then we won't be properly motivated to evaluate
(18:46):
the theological question and the philosophical question around how we
do ministry, and then that practical question of how it
plays out in the everyday life of the church. So
I would say, who do you? Who do you know
who you can have a conversation with? I would urge
that it not necessarily be the wife of someone who
is a stakeholder in in your church leadership, because she
will not probably enter into that conversation as someone who's
(19:08):
going to offer any disruptive feedback. She will probably seek
to affirm what's already happening. So a trusted, disruptive presence
is what you're looking for to start the conversation, to
move you toward seeing seeing how women are experiencing your church.
S1 (19:24):
Yeah. I mean, I think about that question broadly, even
beyond women, right. Just the whole thought of how is
someone experiencing our church? I'm telling you from a pastoral perspective,
from a leadership perspective, those can be some of the
most edifying conversations, but also anxiety producing if you're not careful. Um,
(19:46):
and so I do think that this whole thought of
trusted people is really important. I think that going into
those conversations with a heart that sincerely wants to honor God. Uh,
to me, the foundation of it all has to be the, uh,
supremacy of Christ in all things, uh, the advancement of
(20:09):
the gospel, uh, the desire to honor God. Like those
things have to be more important than ego confirmation bias
or any of those things that will lead us to
either treat a disruptive voice with hostility or to, uh,
ignore it altogether.
S3 (20:29):
It's believing that the that that disruptive voice is a
good faith actor in the conversation. And it's recognizing that
in Genesis two, when God makes his stunning statement that
it is not good and follows it up with for
the man to be alone, that there might be a
way in our local church leadership structures in which men
are actually profoundly alone when it comes to that question,
(20:51):
and that it might be profoundly not good that they are,
and to begin welcoming female voices into spaces where they
can give input on things that just might be misses.
S1 (21:00):
You know, you bring up something very important I think
is often overlooked. There is a profound impact on men
as well, like when we're talking about the role of
women in the church. I think the mistake or misnomer
that could be made, Jen, is to think that this
only impacts women, but maybe just delved a little bit
(21:20):
deeper into that thought. In what ways does ambiguity or
even missing it in this area impact men?
S3 (21:30):
Well, so if you go back to the metaphor of family,
I think it gets really clear. Imagine if you had
a family in your church where the husband seemed like
he was just, you know, living his best life, but
the wife was not. She's in a deep state of depression.
Or maybe you never see her. You only see him
at church with the kids, and you'd be deeply concerned
(21:52):
about how that home was functioning, right? And you wouldn't.
You would later, probably, as you dug into what was
going on in that home, recognize that the husband was
probably not a super healthy person if the wife is
struggling the way that she is, even though he might
have given the appearance of it. And I think what
we sometimes miss is that there's no such thing as
a church in which the men are flourishing and the
(22:14):
women are not, that. For in order for men to
truly flourish, both men and women must flourish in partnership.
And that the opposite is true as well. There's no
such thing as a church in which the women are
flourishing and the men are not. But that the vision
for human flourishing, um, does not center on one one
gender and the other not. That's just not that's not
what the Bible paints a picture for us. So then
(22:36):
we have to begin to ask some questions about how
we've defined a healthy church. Um, and in the same
way that if you looked at someone's home and there
was a single parent, authoritarian dad and children who toed
the line and an absentee mother. You would be panicked
at how those children were doing in the home. We
might also want to look at our local churches and ask,
(22:59):
does our church function that way? Uh, do we have
mothers in the church? Visible women who people can look
to for help and guidance? Uh, women who have a
perspective that's much needed in the direction of church takes
so good.
S1 (23:14):
Again, the conversation today is with Jim Wilkin. Uh, and
we're talking about the role of women in the church.
You can find out more by going to our website,
equip Radio.com. I do invite you to join the conversation
by utilizing our social media platforms. We want to create
safe spaces within the social media world where important conversations
(23:37):
can happen with a heart towards honoring God and one another.
So please go to Equip Radio on Facebook and Twitter
with your questions and comments. Uh, Jan, it seems to
me that one of the, uh, important conversations we need
to have prescriptive and descriptive passages. As a Bible teacher,
(23:59):
how do you explain the difference to a person who
may not know the difference between prescriptive and descriptive? Can
we just start there? What's the difference between those types
of passages?
S3 (24:10):
Yeah. So a lot of knowing whether a passage is
prescriptive or descriptive is knowing where it fits in the
book that you're pulling it out of as a whole.
But a prescriptive passage is one that is telling us
what we should do. And a descriptive passage is one
that is just describing how something was done without setting
out any kind of necessarily a precedent or a guide
(24:31):
for how things are to continue to be done in
light of that story. Sometimes descriptive passages are telling us
how things ought not to be done. So it's important
to know where you find yourself in any given moment.
S1 (24:42):
So on, on any array of topics on the social
life of the church will have in Scripture both categories
of text we'll have in Scripture categories that simply describe
historically how individuals within the church related to one another.
That does not set out normative expectations, but more again,
(25:06):
just capturing almost from a historical perspective what happened. And
then you'll have texts that are really, again, commands. They're
directives that are given to us. And so we want
to examine what that looks like when we come back
from this short break. Uh, as it pertains to the
role of women, the valuable, uh, wonderful and significant role
(25:30):
of women in the advancement of the gospel within the
local church. Jim Wilkin is my guest, and I'm so
grateful for that. I'm grateful for you listening as well.
All of this is made possible by God's grace and
your generosity. If the program has been a blessing to you,
I want to encourage you take this break as an
opportunity to support the program. Either become a monthly partner.
(25:54):
Most do that at a dollar a day, $30 a month,
or give a one time generous tax deductible gift. 888644 4144.
(26:15):
Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded.
While we won't be taking calls, we do want to
connect with you on social media. Hey there friends, welcome
back to Equipped with Chris Brooks. Hope you're enjoying this
fascinating conversation with Bible teacher and author Jen Wilkins. She
(26:38):
is not only an advocate for biblical literacy, but she
is someone who loves the local church deeply, and I'm
grateful for her. Joining me today to have this conversation
about the role of women within the church. And I
hope that it is so encouraging to you that you
share this conversation across your social platforms as well. Please
(27:00):
do so. You can find out more at our website
at npr.org. That's equipped radio jam. We've covered a lot
of ground, but I want to go back to what
we were discussing before this last break. It seems to
me that so often, if there is, uh, maybe a
difference of view in this area, it seems to be, uh,
(27:22):
the tension between correlating the prescriptive verses on this like a,
a Roman 16 that describes so much of Paul's companions
and coworkers and fellow laborers in the gospel, both men
and women and the descriptive passages like a first Timothy
(27:44):
two nine through 11, or First Corinthians 14, where there
seems to be some restrictions and prohibitions there. How do
you correlate those things broadly? And what advice does a
Bible teacher do you give when there seems to be
a tension between prescriptive and descriptive?
S3 (28:04):
Well, it's actually not my job to tell everyone how
to do that. I mean, it kind of is. It's
my job to give people tools, you know, in the
spaces where I'm teaching Bible literature. But this is the
good work that every local church should be doing. And
I think that there needs to be an honest acknowledgement
that some of the prescriptive passages that we find have
(28:24):
been interpreted in various different ways by good faith actors,
and that those that it's possible to be theologically conservative
and land in different places on these passages. But I
think another Bible literacy skill related to doing the work
around this is to beware of the cherry picking element
(28:44):
that comes in so often. So in other words, why
is it that we all can think of two or
3 or 4 places where Paul has said something as
the main verses in this conversation, but we don't think
of passages like Romans 16 as having anything important to
say to us. You know, Romans 16 is a at
(29:05):
length a description of a church that functions as the
family of God, where Paul literally refers to the women
in that passage as his sisters, or who has been
like a mother to me. And so Paul has an
understanding of of church mothers, and he has an understanding
of church sisters, and these are women who are not
(29:26):
functioning in roles that are ancillary. Their work is described
as pivotal. Uh, you know Phoebe. Phoebe underwrites, uh, so
much of his work. And so, um, I think that
we need to ask, why have we settled in on
these two or 3 or 4 verses and place the
emphasis there? It's not that we don't want to consider
(29:47):
those verses, but they need to live within the full
scope of what the Bible is saying about the nature
of the church as a whole.
S1 (29:54):
Yeah, I appreciate the way you handled that. And again,
my question more was to broadly on any topic or subject,
you know, how do we how do we approach this?
But I think your answer was really well framed. And,
you know, part of the way I've thought about this, Jan, um,
just as a pastor in shepherding our church family is
(30:15):
to say that the descriptive passages gives us commands and directives,
but oftentimes we're left with the question of, but what
does this look like lived out? And the prescriptive passages
often answer that question. This is what that command looks
like lived out. And if we don't see those as
(30:37):
being in tension with one another. If we start with
the presupposition that the Bible is harmonious, that it is congruent,
that it is free from contradiction or error. If we
start with that in particular interior to often one author.
I mean, you're talking often, uh, the debate ends up being, unfortunately,
(31:01):
pitting Paul against Paul, you know, right, in a lot
of ways. And so, uh, it just to me seems
that if I approach it from saying, okay, clearly there
is a command here and I might not be fully
clear on what is being commanded or I might not
be fully clear on, well, how then does that look
(31:22):
lived out? But then when you couple that with some
of the prescriptive passages, I think it illuminates it and
it says, okay, all right. This then, is how it's
lived out, where we can be biblically faithful, while at
the same time affirming and creating environments for flourishing. I
want to shift the topic a little bit, if I could,
(31:43):
to talk about women who might be at a church,
who they love, they appreciate deeply, but a church that
is either through avoidance or just a myriad of reasons
lacking theological clarity in this area. How would you encourage
that woman to work well with her pastor or church
(32:08):
leadership to help to bring theological clarity?
S3 (32:13):
Yeah, well, I think the first step is obviously to pray,
to ask the Lord for wisdom and to ask the
Lord to provide an opening, uh, to have that conversation.
And I think also to ask the Lord to give
her eyes for someone who might be an ally in
that conversation, uh, perhaps a man who, um, who is
seen and valued, who also perceives that this is a need.
(32:36):
And then I think the first point of pressure, the
first sort of like, hey, help me with this needs
to be to defuse any of the the typical fears
around this, like women are wanting to take over. They
want to be they want to be the pastor. They
want to preach on Sunday. You know, it's like, wait
a minute, wait a minute. Let's just back off of
that and just say, you know, can we just talk
(32:57):
about whether whether our our expression of ministry demonstrates clearly
that men and women are valued equally before the Lord,
even though we would see distinction in the way that
that value plays out in the local church. Um, I
think that often men who are in leadership in the
church don't recognize that clarity is kindness around this issue. Um,
(33:19):
that really, you know, you can land, you know, a
woman is willing to be in a church that lands
in a more, let's say, restrictive space than she might
in her reading of the scripture. Um, because at least
it lets her know how she can operate in that space.
But when we don't land anywhere and we just assume
that everyone can figure it out on their own, it
(33:40):
means that women in our churches are subject to the
interpretation of passages of whoever is the the man who's
leading in that room. They have to chameleon themselves into
a hundred different iterations of this. And that's a very
stressful way to to be a church member. And so
clarity is kindness. Whether you land more conservatively or more graciously,
(34:02):
more open handedly on this. Um, you have to land somewhere.
And so that's a lot of what women can communicate to,
to men who are in leadership is like, hey, I'm
not coming in here to tell you where you should land.
So much as I'm asking you, please do the hard
work and I want to partner with you in it
if you're willing to, to bring me into the conversation. Um,
(34:23):
but you've got to land somewhere. That's clear. Otherwise, we're
just going to continue to to fumble through this, and
women will feel like there's risk anytime they do offer
up their gifts in a particular setting.
S1 (34:35):
One of the things that's been most helpful for me
as a pastor elder at our church, uh, is one
of them is, um, great resources. Jan, uh, it is
always like a huge blessing when any of the members of,
of our local church, uh, share with me or any
of the other pastors, elders, leaders. Hey, here's a book
(34:56):
that has really impacted my heart. And when it's shared in, uh,
not a, um, not a critical way, not a way of, uh, rebuke,
if you will, or criticism, but in a way that is, hey,
this has been super helpful for me. Um, I want
to encourage you to, to read it as well. Or
or I'm wanting to give this to you. Uh, man,
(35:19):
it could be a huge blessing as well. I, I'm
tempted to want to, uh, give a bibliography of books
that have really been impactful for me or for you
to do the same. But my my concern in doing
that is to, uh. Uh, maybe overly influence or take
(35:40):
away from what you've championed, and that is that local
churches need to do this work themselves, and they need
to come together as leaders. But I will say this
before we go to our last break of the day,
there has been tremendous thought put into this discussion, and
there are wonderful resources that we should read, and we
(36:03):
should not be afraid to read broadly, to read perspectives
and counter perspectives, all with an open Bible and in
rigorous discussion, together with a hopeful heart to cast a
beautiful vision grounded in the gospel. And I pray that
this conversation is helping you towards that end. Jen is
(36:24):
going to stay with me for one final segment where
I want to talk about why it's so important for
women to receive biblical and theological training. Don't go anywhere.
Much more to come. Next up on equip. Are you
struggling in your spiritual journey? Does the path seem confusing?
Pilgrim's progress in today's English might be exactly what you need.
(36:46):
This modern version of John Bunyan's classical allegory illustrates the challenges, temptations,
and victories every believer experiences, all in language that you
can easily understand and apply to your life. Request your
copy with the gift of any amount. To support equip
this month, call 888644 4144 or visit Equip radio.org. Today's
(37:12):
program has been prerecorded so our phone lines are not open.
Welcome back to equip with Chris Brooks. Jim Wilkins is
my guest today. I want to encourage you to find
out more by going to our website. Equip radio.org that's
equip radio o g. And not too long ago I
(37:35):
was having a conversation with, uh, Tim Challies uh, from Canada,
and we were talking about how sad it is that, um,
theological and biblical training for women is, in some parts
of the body of Christ, a controversial topic, um, which I,
which I find, um, mind blowing. Really. Uh, I want
(37:59):
to kind of shift to that. Why is it so important?
And why are you such a huge advocate for biblical
literacy and theological training for women?
S3 (38:11):
Well, um, it goes back to the metaphor that I
pointed out earlier of the church as the family of God. Um,
we would not want there to be no church mothers
in our church. We don't want our church to be
a place where there's no spiritual leadership coming from women,
where a younger woman can look toward that and see
this is what Christian maturity looks like. Uh, and even
(38:33):
younger men can look toward that and see, this is
what Christian maturity looks like in a church, mother. Um,
we don't want our local churches to be motherless. And
here's why. Because when you have a motherless local church, um,
women in particular, don't stop looking for someone to be
a spiritual mother to them. They go and look outside
of the church for that. And so, you know, there's
(38:56):
actually been in the last several years, some women who
had large public platforms who have gone through very public
deconstruction of their faith. And it has had a dramatic
impact on the thinking of many women in the local church.
But the names of those women, when I asked them
of pastors, many pastors have never even heard of these
women don't know who these women are. Um, and I'm
(39:17):
not going to mention their names now because I don't
want to draw ridicule toward them. I think they've suffered
enough of that. They're allowed to evaluate their faith. Um,
but the question that I think we have to ask is,
do we want to outsource church mothers to half of
our congregations? Because it means that we don't actually know
who is impacting our our women, you know, theologically or
(39:39):
even philosophically or practically in the way that they live
their lives. And I say this as someone who is
a person who churches tend to outsource their women to.
I am a head on a screen and a lot
of churches teaching the Bible to women. And I actually
I understand the value of what that does, you know,
being able to create those resources and get them into
(39:59):
the local church. But I am not a substitute for
an embodied female in your local church who knows her
Bible and is able to help others know their Bibles
as well. Um, you don't want me to be that either,
even if I'm a positive influence on your women, which
I hope that I am. So I think, you know,
the question that we have to ask is, do we
(40:21):
want motherless churches or churches with mothers? And if they
have mothers, don't. We want them to be mothers who
are skilled in handling the scriptures and who understand theology
and are able to impart that to the next generation,
because it's going to impact every area of ministry in
your church.
S1 (40:35):
Yeah, I say amen and amen to everything you just said.
I also would just simply add that there is no
asterisk by the command of acts one and eight to
be his witnesses, that men and women are called to
spread the gospel, to share the good and glorious news
(40:58):
of a resurrected Savior who has come to provide the grace,
the mercy, and the salvation that our souls need. And
when we are not training women well in the gospel,
we are in many ways rendering them ill equipped to
be able to bear witness to their neighbors, their coworkers,
their friends of who Jesus is and what he has
(41:21):
come to accomplish. We need women who understand the word,
rightfully enough, to be able to rightfully divide it and
to be able to not only commend it, but defend
it as well. And so I just say amen to
everything you just said. I also want to talk about
the flip side of the coin, though, Jan. And maybe
(41:42):
this is a place where we can, um, land the plane.
There is a generation of younger women that I've interacted
with that seem to be somewhat exhausted, uh, by this,
maybe even cynical would be a way of describing at
least the mood, uh, and that maybe is even asking
(42:03):
why church? Like church? Why bother with the whole thing?
I'll just utilize my gifts, talents, and abilities outside in
secular institutions. What apologetic would you give to that generation
or women who are feeling cynicism towards the church?
S3 (42:23):
Honestly, I can understand. I can understand it. They've been,
you know, they've been viewed as a threat instead of
as an asset. Um, and I think that I would,
I would challenge them to consider whether what many women
are actually driven to think is that a theological trade
is necessary for them to use their gifts in the
local church. Um, so I would I would urge them
(42:44):
to do the hard work around theology piece and ask
if that's true. I personally believe that, um, that the
theological piece within a conservative framework that there is there
is ample space for women to use their gifts in
the local church. The question of whether the the pastor
of that church recognizes that or not is another one entirely. Um,
(43:05):
but I think those are the women who potentially can
go and try to affect change in their churches. It
is a sadness to me that the church has basically hemorrhaged, uh,
a generation of women who are capable, who understand what
it is to be treated as an equal image bearer
in their workplace, and often in their own families. But
(43:26):
in the church, they find that they're treated as second
class citizens. So I think that I would urge them
to do the theological work themselves, to make the appeal
to the church, whose theology is most closely in alignment
with their understanding of the scriptures. Um, and then if
the local church is not a place where their where
their gifts are being welcomed in, then it doesn't mean
(43:46):
that their gifts are not needful, because the Lord does
not give gifts that are not needful. So, um, find
ways to serve, uh, in other spaces. Now that breaks
my heart to say that that's not the way that
it should be, but that's the way that it can
be so often for women. Um, my greater exhortation would
be to, to pastors themselves to ask, let's say that
(44:07):
you hold a pure theology. Does your practice show a
beautiful vision, or is it a practice that is effectively
erring on the side of caution at every turn when
it comes to utilizing the gifts of women. Because if
it's erring on the side of caution, which is so
commonly the the the case, it means that you're like
a car where the wheels are constantly pulling to the right. Um,
(44:30):
and that means that you're going to be veering toward
actually something that's equally as dangerous as veering all the
way to the left. So, um, to be aware of
whether we have charted a course that might actually be
overly restrictive because we're operating from a place of fear
instead of one that seeks to run a straight line
because we're operating from a place of love.
S1 (44:52):
Jan, I know that these are always, um, sometimes treacherous
waters to weed through and wade through, but you do
a really graceful job with it, and I'm super encouraged
by that. And I'm grateful for you. I do want
to end on a positive note by saying, there are
so many good churches out there that are reflecting that
(45:13):
beautiful vision that have remained faithful to the gospel while
creating cultures. A culture within their church that equips, affirms,
and mobilizes women for their calling in Christ. And I'd
be remiss if I did not acknowledge the many, many
churches and leaders that are committed to such a way
(45:38):
of ministry within their local communities. So thank you, uh,
for the work that you're doing. And again, I want
to say to all of my listeners, find out more
at our website at Equip Radio. Thanks, Jen, for carving
out an hour to hang out with us today.
S3 (45:56):
Thanks for the good conversation.
S1 (45:58):
Folks, I am so grateful that we were able to
cover so much ground, but I know that we are
just beginning to scratch the, uh, the surface in in
this conversation, but I pray that this would be a
resource that you could somehow use and leverage for the
good of your church, for the women within it, for
(46:19):
the men and leaders to be able to begin to
bring clarity out of everything that was said today. Maybe
the thing that touched my heart the most is that
clarity is kindness. Wherever there is confusion, it gives opportunity
for our enemy, our adversary, to bring division or even
to hinder the work and the mission of the local church.
(46:42):
So I pray that you will move towards clarity, and
one that allows God to be glorified in the lives
and relationships of both men and women. And I hope
that we here at Equip can be a partner with
you in that process. For any of our conversations, just
go to our website, equip radio.org and until we're together
again next time, remember equip with Chris Brooks is a
(47:04):
production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
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