April 16, 2025 • 47 mins
We live in a broken world and we all bear the pain that goes with it.
Chris Brooks will walk with you in your suffering and help you explore God’s presence in your pain. While there are no simple answers, Chris and his guest Amy Orr-Ewing welcome your most rigorous questions about finding God in a world of suffering. Whether you are intellectually curious or struggling with soul-rending questions, there is a safe place for you here.
Become a Monthly Partner: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/equipped/partners
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:15):
Please enjoy this encore edition of equip with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equip
with Chris Brooks. I'm thrilled that you've joined us today.
Can you do me a favor? Strap on your seatbelt.
We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always,
with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before
(00:37):
we do that, let me remind you, this is the
day that the Lord has made. He is giving it
as a gift so that you and I can rejoice
and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. You know,
some topics and discussion that we have here on equip
(00:59):
may seem far away, maybe lofty or academic, uh, somewhat
out of reach. We try our best to make even
those topics approachable and easy to understand and interact with.
But then there are certain topics that hit close to
home that is fully relatable to all of us. Such
(01:19):
is the case today. Today I want to talk about suffering.
More particularly, why God allows pain and suffering and evil.
Every one of us have experienced pain and suffering or
devastating events that have rocked our world and left us,
maybe even with deep doubts about God's goodness. Bewildered, confused,
(01:43):
and with many, many questions. And those questions beg for
and demand an explanation. And the hurts and the deep
wounds of our souls demand for healing. And so maybe
you're listening to me today, and you have been processing
through a broad devastation like the pandemic we've been going through,
(02:04):
or the realities of war, or living in a neighborhood
in which violence is all too prevalent. Or maybe on
a more personal level, you're asking questions like, why does
God allow cancer or car accidents or a child to die?
Today I want to take on those tough questions, as
we always do here on equip. We know we don't
(02:26):
run from the tough questions. We run to those questions
with humility, but with a great confidence that it's in
the question that God finds us, that we discover that
the Christian worldview is not just intellectually tenable, but it
actually answers the deepest questions of the heart and the
deepest longings of our mind as well. Today, I'm grateful
(02:50):
for a resource that I highly commend to you. It's
entitled Where Is God in All the Suffering? It's by, um,
an author that, uh. I can't speak highly enough of
that I respect and appreciate deeply Doctor Amy Orr Ewing.
If you have followed her ministry, you know her well
as a thoughtful theologian, a speaker, an apologist, and an author. Uh,
(03:16):
but Amy is someone who is not just an academic,
but she has lived a life that has, uh, not
only been in service to our Savior, but also experienced
deep suffering herself. Amy holds a doctorate of theology from
the University of Oxford. She is also the co-founder of reboot,
(03:36):
an innovative youth initiative aimed at helping teenagers think deeply
about faith, which now runs in countries all over the world.
She and her husband, frog, minister together, uh, in Oxford
and are just tremendous people and, uh, and I'm grateful
for them and their three boys. Amy, how are you today?
S2 (03:59):
Hi, Chris. That's such a generous introduction. Thank you. I'm. I'm. Well.
The sun for once is shining in the UK. I'm well.
Thank you.
S1 (04:08):
Well, you know.
S2 (04:09):
It's just such a joy to be with you. Honestly,
I love and respect you and so much so it's
it's great to have this time together. Thank you.
S1 (04:18):
Well, you know, I jokingly say that it seems like
England gets three days of summer, and that may be
that may, may be an.
S2 (04:26):
Overstatement right now. Yeah, exactly.
S1 (04:28):
So enjoy. Enjoy. But I appreciate you carving out time
to be with us. Uh, there's so much that has
been written on this topic. It seems to me, uh, Amy,
that the question of why suffering is, um, ubiquitous. It
is one of the most common questions that we've, uh,
we all ask, regardless of belief or background. It is old.
(04:52):
It is one of the oldest questions of humanity, even
dating back to the book of Job. Um, it is
a question that seems to, uh, be universal as well,
and repeated again and again and again. But with all
that said, it seems like it is still yet one
of the most difficult topics to write on. Um, was
(05:14):
that the case for you as you wrote this book,
and why is it so hard for us, even after
all these centuries and millennia? Why is it hard to
write on and talk about the question of suffering?
S2 (05:27):
Thank you for that question. Yeah, I mean, I, I
waited a long time, you know, 20 years in ministry
before writing this book. And yes, it's really hard to
write on it. Um, I think that's fair for a
number of reasons. Firstly, because, you know, anyone who approaches
this question without a kind of deep personal, um, humility
(05:51):
or without, you know, personal experience of really devastating things,
that sort of approach isn't, isn't going to connect with
the heart of this question. And it's it's hard to
come at it because there is an intellectual component. We
do have the rational question? How could God be good
(06:12):
and loving? And this be the world that is, how
could what has just happened to me happen? If it's
true that God loves me and that's that's an intellectual question,
but it's also a profoundly personal and experiential question. So
navigating those two layers well is really difficult. And, you know,
I believe the Bible uniquely does that. It's not a
(06:34):
sort of dusty philosophical tome. It's it's profoundly rooted in
the real world that we experience where people are raped
and people are murdered and people die accidental deaths young, um,
where there are natural disasters, all of those things happen
in the Bible. And there's also a kind of seriousness
(06:54):
in the scriptures about the profound intellectual challenge as well.
So I do believe the Christian faith has something, um,
to offer in this question that we all face as
human beings. But, um, you know, it's a daunting task to,
to to take it on and to to deeply consider
(07:15):
it and to do that work ourselves.
S1 (07:18):
Um, we share a lot in common, but one of
the things I know you bring to this moment is
a pastoral sensitivity, if you will, uh, to the fact
that we are going to discuss this not just merely
from an intellectual perspective, but I recognize there are people
that are hurting there, even as we started this program.
(07:39):
I share it with you that here at our church
there is a dear and very precious family whose husband
or wife whose husband was in a car accident today.
Devastating car accident. And um, and only according to doctors,
have but hours to live. And our entire team has been, uh,
(08:00):
trying to support and care for this family. But this
for us is, uh, all too real. And, uh, from
a ministry perspective, this comes so often. Uh, so I
guess my my question to you is the temptation that
often arises among Christians is to simply say, just have faith. Uh,
(08:25):
just have faith. Just trust God. Don't explore the deeper questions.
Try to suppress those things. Ignore those things. But at
least for the wife that I talked to this morning,
her question continued to be why would God allow this
to happen? My husband is a good man. Why would
this happen? What's wrong, Amy, with us simply saying, just
(08:48):
have faith.
S2 (08:50):
Well, I think it's not biblical. So the scriptures are
full of the agonizing questions of people in pain. And,
you know, we believe the Lord ordained those holy scriptures
that he inspired them. And in the Bible, questions like.
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You
(09:12):
are so far from saving me. God or I cry
out to you and you do not answer. Or Psalm 42.
Why have you forgotten me? God I'm in. I'm in trouble.
And my foes are saying, where is your God? Or,
you know, we think of, of of the prophet Habakkuk
who says, how long, Lord, must I cry for help?
(09:35):
And you do not listen? Or Jobe, who says, God,
is it pleasing you to oppress me? So you know,
within the scriptures we have this this language of lament
and agony and pain and even articulations of doubt in
the goodness of God. And and those are there in
(09:56):
the Bible for us. There's a sort of vehicle of,
of prayer and words that, you know, are deeply and
profoundly human, because if we're going to be real about it,
we think, well, if if I had power, you know,
I wouldn't let this happen to to someone I loved.
So therefore, you know, God has got power. How could
(10:17):
he let this happen to me if it's true that
he loves me so that that question is real and
it is voiced by people in the Bible. And so
I think the first thing I'd want to say is
that if you are going through a devastating time of
loss or, you know, a horrific, shocking experience or even
just normal grief of, you know, someone dying of old
(10:41):
age and you're experiencing that profound grief, the Bible is
here for you. The loving God of the Bible has
given us words, um, and given us prayers and given
us an acknowledgment of of what it feels like to
be in this kind of situation. And we are not
required to pretend we're okay and we're not required to just,
(11:05):
you know, steel ourselves and say, well, I'm just going
to have faith and pretend that everything's okay. No, faith
is is rooted in reality. And it begins, you know,
at this, at this kind of truthfulness of of what
it means to endure suffering.
S1 (11:22):
Um, there there is, um, certain statements you can't make
unless you have walked through the journey of suffering in
deep ways. You know, I share your resume and some
of the accolades, which I think is appropriate when introducing
a guest. But in your book, you also, um, in
(11:42):
a very vulnerable way, share about suffering that you've experienced, uh,
as well as from your husband. And, and I'm grateful
that you don't just write with the pen of an academic,
but you give us a little bit of a peek
behind the curtain of what it's like, to go through
deep suffering. But I want to ask this question, Amy,
(12:05):
what is your hope for those who pick up? Where
is God and all the suffering?
S2 (12:12):
My hope is that, um, that that people who feel, um,
lost or alone or like in real difficulty as to
how God could be loving and you know, what they're
going through be happening that that through reading this book,
they would begin to find some peace in their own
(12:34):
questions and own experiences and feelings, but also a deeper
grasp of, of of who this loving God is and
what it really means that, um, he is for them
and that that that God has not left us alone
in this, in this suffering world, and that there's ultimate
(12:55):
hope in the person of Jesus and of course, ultimate
hope in life beyond the grave. So I want people
to experience, I guess, a freedom to genuinely process trauma, doubt, devastation, loss, grief,
(13:16):
you know, mental health collapses, illness, um, and catastrophic things happening.
And to do that in a way that is honest
and in the midst of that processing, to encounter the
God of the Bible, who who genuinely loves this world, us,
you know, as, as we suffer.
S1 (13:37):
So here's what we're going to do, friends. We're going
to open up the phone lines, because as I talk
to Amy and interview her about the content of her books,
I also want to create space, safe space to process
with you the questions of your own heart and the
pain and aches of your own soul. Maybe you've gone
(13:57):
through a devastation that has left you feeling lost or alone.
Maybe you're searching for answers. Searching more for peace. Maybe
you need a deeper grasp of God's goodness and his grace. Today,
I believe that it's not a coincidence that you're listening in.
(14:18):
That God sees you. He loves you. And we want
to process with you. The phone number is 87756758775483675 is
the number. Um, maybe the pain that you're going through
is fresh. Or maybe it is decades old, but yet
(14:40):
still very, very much present in your life. And you're
asking the question, Where is God in all the suffering? 87754833675.
Such a blessing to have Amy Orr Ewing with us today.
Don't go anywhere. Much more to come. Next up on
equipped with Chris Brooks. We live in a culture whose
(15:06):
needs and obstacles to faith are constantly shifting. Sean McDowell's
book apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture, addresses many current
issues and will help you share and defend the gospel.
S3 (15:19):
With relevant answers. It's our thank you gift for supporting
equipped this month. We'll send you a copy with your
gift of any amount to equipped. Just call (888)Â 644-4144 or
visit equipped radio.org. That's (888)Â 644-4144 or online at equipped radio.org.
S1 (15:43):
Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded.
While we won't be taking calls, we do want to
connect with you on social media. Welcome back to equipped
with Chris Brooks. So grateful for all of our friends
who prayerfully and financially support the ministry. If that's you,
(16:04):
thank you. We realize that we are here every day
because of God's grace in your generosity. So grateful for you.
Maybe you've been listening to the program and you've been
blessed by our guests topics and resources. And you say,
you know, I've listened. I've not supported the program, but
I would love to. Today you can do so either
by by becoming a monthly partner or a generous one
(16:27):
time tax deductible gift. Visit our website equipped radio.org. That's
equipped radio.org. To find out more. Today my guest, Doctor
Amy Orr-ewing. We're talking about her newest book, Where Is
God in All the Suffering? Amy, uh, you kind of
dive in in the book pretty, pretty head first, if
(16:49):
you will. In your first chapter, you take up the
question of asking why? And there have been, over time,
several options given, uh, by various, uh, various religious groups
or various uh, ideologies. One is karma. You take that up,
the other is is fate. Uh, the other is, uh,
(17:13):
thought that secular atheism gives us and that is, that is, uh, meaninglessness.
But but what is the biblical answer? Why? Why suffering?
S2 (17:23):
Thank you. Chris, I think it's really important to realize
it's not only the Bible that needs to give an answer.
It's not only Christians that need to give an answer
to this. So alongside those options that you've mentioned of
karma and fate and what materialism has to offer, meaninglessness.
The Bible, um, begins in the book of Genesis with
this glorious vision of what it means to be human,
(17:45):
describing the man and the woman, male and female, as
being created in the image of God and talks about
God creating a good world, and specifically a world within
which love is possible. And we we all know if
we think about love and if we think about our
(18:05):
human relationships, that for love to be real, it can't
be compelled. There has to be an element of a
person having autonomy and making a decision to give or
or withhold love. And so the Bible speaks about the
man and the woman made in the image of God
having that capacity to to make decisions. And then ultimately,
(18:29):
you know, being agents who are responsible for the decisions
that we make, but that the man and the woman,
Adam and Eve, use that capacity to choose. They use
it to to harm as well as to love. And
so as a result of human will, sin and suffering
(18:50):
and death and darkness and disease come into this world.
And then for the rest of the Bible, we we
see and recognize the world that we experience today, which
is where there's a real beauty and a preciousness about life.
But there's also this, this darkness. There's also disappointment. There's
(19:11):
also devastation. There's natural disasters. There's death and suffering and cancer.
And those things don't seem to have a direct relationship
to the way that someone has, you know, morally lived.
So the, the, the biblical kind of reasoning is not, well,
you know, you did this bad thing. And so tomorrow
(19:34):
this equally or even worse thing is going to happen
to you. The biblical idea is that we are now
all living in a world where we are living with
the legacy and the impact of human exercise of will
that has brought harm and sin into this world. And
(19:54):
so Christians, people who follow Jesus as well as unbelievers
will be impacted by that fallen world. We will suffer.
Jesus never says, come to me, follow me, and you
won't suffer that disaster, that car accident, that illness won't
happen to you. He says, follow me. And in this
(20:15):
world you're going to experience trouble. But he offers us
this kind of eternal life that is life beyond the
grave and is experienced today, but it's experienced in the
midst of the suffering world. So suffering is a consequence
of the possibility of love. And the beginning of the
Bible kind of brings that explanation. Um, and then the
(20:38):
the middle of the Bible where Jesus comes and, and
enters the world and suffers for us as a demonstration
of love, gives us another insight into God and suffering.
And then at the end of the Bible, there's this
promise of hope, of life beyond the grave, where if
we know the Lord, if he saved us, then he
(21:00):
will wipe tears from our eyes. The questions and issues
of suffering will be resolved ultimately in that eternal life.
S1 (21:10):
I love what Matt Redman, singer songwriter, says about your book.
He says Amy isn't afraid to face the tough questions
of life, and in this brilliant book she takes on
one of the toughest of all. And she does. And
she does it in a caring but yet clear and
cogent way. So I'm encouraging you get the book today
(21:31):
for yourself or for someone you love. Go to our website, npr.org.
Click on today's program details. You can find out ordering
information there. Amy, as I promised, I want to go
to the phone lines. Many are calling and Tara is
listening in Georgia. Tara, thank you so much for listening.
(21:51):
What's your question today for Amy?
S4 (21:54):
Well, Chris, to give you a little bit of background,
we have, um, thank you for taking my call first.
We lost a daughter 17 months ago in a shooting,
and it was very violent and very traumatic. And, um,
I found myself on a daily basis. I had to
(22:15):
even quit my job. But I find myself daily struggling
to hear the voice of the Lord and to feel
his presence in my heart and in my spirit. Um,
many times recently, I have been on my knees and
I guess my question is, how do you push through
the silence and the doubt and the fear when you
(22:37):
lose a child? And how do you find the joy
of the Lord?
S5 (22:42):
Yeah. Yeah.
S2 (22:44):
Thank you, Tara, for that. I'm so sorry to hear
what happened to your child. It's just unimaginable. And our
hearts and prayers are with you right now. And I'm
sure that's true for every single person who's who's listening
to this. And, you know, as I as I just
pray for you right now, I kind of sense two things.
(23:06):
One is that, um, in the Bible, we, we encounter
a God who, because he is loving, is a God
of justice. And so as we hear about the loss
of your daughter and what has happened to you and
the violence that that you describe, actually we can we
(23:27):
can trust God to bring about justice, ultimately. And, um,
we can kind of give our feelings of, of, of
anger and our desire for, for justice to be done
in a situation like that to him. And ultimately, um,
we can know there's a kind of hope in knowing
(23:48):
that he will set that right ultimately. Because. Because he's
the judge. And then, um, the second thing I wanted
to say is that, you know, there's this beautiful portrait
of the Lord Jesus in John's gospel in chapter 11,
when his friend Lazarus has died and Lazarus two sisters,
(24:10):
Mary and Martha, were really good friends of Jesus, and
they were so, um, disappointed with him that he hadn't
got there soon enough to prevent this death. And the
shortest verse in the Bible says that Jesus wept. And
I just sensed that God's love for you right now
(24:32):
is expressed in the Son of God, who weeps at
the tomb of someone who's lost their life. And he
doesn't rush on from that weeping. And that's there in
the Bible as, as a vision of a of a
loving God. And so, um, as you cry out to
(24:53):
him and as, as, you know, we pray for you now, I,
I just pray that the Lord Jesus, who who weeps
with you over this loss, would just pour his love
into your heart and that you would experience his presence
even right now.
S1 (25:10):
Let me pray for you, Tara. Father, I thank you
that you are comfort even in the deepest of pain
in our time of need. You invite us to come
to you and Lord you, um. You wipe away our
tears and you comfort our hearts. Lord, I pray that
for terror that you would sense your presence near, that
she would hear your voice, reminding her that you love her.
(25:33):
And I pray, Lord, that you would just carry her
through this difficult moment, reminding her that you are making
all things new Your promise is that where you are,
she will be with you. That is the hope that
we have in this life and in the life to come.
Blessed her. We pray. In Jesus name. Amen. These calls. Um,
(25:56):
never have enough time. And so, Tara, one of the
things that we want to do is bless you with
a complimentary copy of Where Is God and All the Suffering?
And we pray that it's an encouragement to your heart.
Many are calling in. Please stay on the line. Amy's
going to stay with us. We'll be right back. Chris
Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded and
(26:19):
we won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to We
Quit with Chris Brooks. Grateful for you listening in. I
pray that our program is an encouragement to your heart,
and if so, we do encourage you to share it. Uh,
go to your social platforms. Just click that share button
(26:41):
so that other friends, family members and loved ones can
be encouraged as well. Today we're having a fascinating conversation
with Doctor Amy Orr-ewing about her latest book, Where Is
God in All the Suffering? Maybe you have experienced personal
devastation and events that have left you questioning God. Where
(27:01):
are you? Uh, I believe the book would speak powerfully
to you, but maybe the question is something broader and
bigger and and at least from a, a, um, a
corporate perspective asking questions about why is there so much
evil in the world, why is there war and suffering?
If God is real and all loving and all powerful?
(27:25):
I think the book speaks powerfully to you as well.
So whether you read it as an individual or as
a pastor, teach through it to your church family. I
just want to encourage you to take on the question
as Amy guides us through how we can answer with
compassion and with clarity. Find out more at Equip radio.org.
(27:48):
That's equip radio.org. Um, Amy, oftentimes when we experience deep
hurt and pain, uh, the response that we eventually come
to is a place of anger. Where does that anger
come from? And what does that reveal to us about God's, uh,
(28:10):
not only reality, but his working even in our lives?
S2 (28:13):
Yeah, that's one of the things I really wanted to
explore in the book, because I think in Christian circles,
we can have a tendency to sort of try and
dampen down people's emotions of anger as if, you know,
maybe that that would be ungodly. But actually, um, what
we see in, in the scriptures is, um, if you like,
(28:37):
a Her foundation for why we would experience rage or
anger when someone really suffers. Is his experience with violence,
or is is harmed in some profound way. If you
think about it like this, um, without, uh, God existing, um,
all human life is just biochemistry. We're just a blob
(29:02):
of cells, and we don't have any kind of deeper
purpose or meaning in our lives. We're just the sum
of the physical matter of our bodies. And so, you know,
we don't really mind if, you know, a blob of
matter is, is crushed, um, or discarded in some way.
But we do mind when that happens to a human being.
(29:25):
And actually, you know, even evolutionary sort of survival instincts
can't explain why we care. Um, about people suffering who,
you know, we don't have even a survival instinct to
care about someone we're not connected to who's not a
blood relative. So that instinct to experience rage and to
(29:48):
cry for justice points to that profound truth about what
it means to be human. It points to a transcendent
source for life. It points to the fact that we
are just more than our bodies. There's a metaphysical dimension
to our lives. Our lives have a sacred value because
we've been created in the image of God. And that
(30:11):
means that our lives matter on an eternal level. And
that means when someone is raped or attacked or murdered
or crushed by systemic injustice, it matters at a profound level,
more than just the sum of their biological body suffering,
(30:31):
that it matters much more deeply. And the Christian faith
gives us a foundation for that. And as I said earlier,
it also gives us a language even for that, for
that rage and an ability to kind of voice that
that to God and that he is big enough to
take that and we're not left in rage. Ultimately, we're
(30:52):
brought to Christ. We're led to Christ. And, you know,
we're called to kindness. But but rage at injustice is
an integral part of what it means not just to
be human, but what it means to be a Christian
as well.
S1 (31:04):
So few of us have been taught on how to mourn. Well,
when my wife and I went through the loss of
our son, it was new territory for us. We had
not been, uh, trained in all of our time in
study and in communion with the people of God. That
was an area of our relationship with God that needed
(31:25):
severely to be developed. But I'm grateful for books like
yours that, uh, recognize that the soul grows in many
ways and and deepens in its capacity to receive the
grace of God. When we are honest and truthful about
things like our anger, our disappointment, and it reveals the
(31:46):
the very reality of a just God, a moral lawgiver
who has created the world for not death, but life.
And it was something broken that's here that we have
to recognize. I do want to ask a question, though.
So many of our questions have been pastoral, but I'm
going to ask a parental question in just a moment.
(32:07):
But let me give the number again. And maybe you're
processing your own question of pain, suffering and evil. Or
maybe you're trying to help a son or a daughter
process I'll never forget. Um, me and my wife saying,
how are we going to explain this to our children
that their brother isn't here anymore? And maybe you're there.
Maybe you're wondering, how do I explain this devastation to
(32:30):
a child, a son or daughter or grandchild? Out. Let's, uh,
let's open up the phone lines again. 8775675 is the number.
That's 877548 3675. You dedicate this book to your, uh,
your three awesome sons. Uh, Zach, JJ, Benji. And I
(32:52):
think that that is so precious as a mom, when
you think about all the suffering that you've had to
process your own life personally, uh, the news, the the
stuff that's happening around the world, how do you advise
parents to take up this conversation with their children?
S5 (33:10):
Um.
S2 (33:12):
I, I think we need to begin it early. You know,
in all the work I do in apologetics and evangelism
around the world with university students and people working in
business and, and as well with teenagers, I so often
come across young people who've grown up in Christian homes,
(33:33):
for whom it is a shock that someone who has
led a good life as a Christian who's been faithful
will suffer. And it's it's it's brought about sometimes doubt
to the point of walking away from the faith because
they've been raised with a vision of experiencing blessing as
(33:54):
a sign of God's love. And so, um, I've just
felt it's it's really important for, for my three sons to,
you know, grow up with an understanding of what the
fall actually means. What does Genesis 1 to 3 really mean?
And to grow up knowing Christians who are persecuted and
(34:17):
to hear stories of, you know, some of the most
heroic church planters and followers of Jesus, some of the
people who see the most incredible miracles in their ministries
around the world are also people who really suffer, including,
you know, early death or cancer or the loss of
loved ones. And so, um, to, to encourage our children
(34:42):
to invite Jesus into their experience of suffering, to encourage
our children to expect that in the Christian life, as
we follow him, we are going to go through loss
to encourage our children that it is okay to articulate
doubt and questions, and also to encourage our children to
(35:05):
look with hope towards the life to come that we're
passing through this earth, this life, you know, the material
things that we acquire, the joys and the sorrows that
we go through in this life are not all there is.
We were made for, you know, another world as well.
And that eternity with Jesus is what is what we're
(35:25):
living for. And I think to have those conversations, not
just when the devastating, shocking thing happens, but in the
course of life at meal tables, even as we, you know,
read books or listen to movies, to to introduce those
truths and realities so that we're living our lives orientated
(35:48):
scripturally and, and then when loss comes, there's a foundation
that has has been laid there to, to help us
process it.
S1 (35:57):
You know, as parents, we often assume that the best
approach is to shield our children from these things. And
that is certainly the natural reflex, if you will. But
in the world of technology, where there's screens everywhere, it
becomes nearly impossible to fully protect them or shield them
from these things. And what I hear you saying, which
(36:19):
I agree with and um, and, and would affirm, is
that it is so much better for us to shepherd
them through it, to engage them with it, to give
them space, to process their own questions, and to try
our best to help them to know that we're on
the journey with them. And we're looking to God and
(36:40):
His Word together. Let's quickly, uh, I got about a
minute before our next break, but let's quickly take Isabella.
Isabella is listening in Jackson, Mississippi. Isabella, thank you so
much for listening to equip. What's your comment today?
S6 (36:57):
I'm enjoying the message today. Um, I love the author's response.
It is just awesome. Uh, one of the things this, uh,
I've worked at a church for about 22 years, and
one of the things that I have, uh, discovered in, uh,
just talking with people when things happen is that, uh,
(37:18):
we focus so much on, uh, now, this is from
my perspective and my dealing with people. My question is
why do we often blame God for when things happen
to us? Yeah, or why do we try to make
excuses for God?
S1 (37:38):
Yeah.
S6 (37:39):
Sometimes I say, I do not know. Those are just
questions I'm throwing out. Sometimes I tell people I don't
know because I don't. Uh, the scripture tells us that
the secret things, there are some secret things that belong
to God. And so we have to, uh, also, I
love the author saying this, and we need to always
(38:01):
go back to this, and it's very difficult for people
to perceive it. But it's true. Speaking the truth in love.
There is sin in our world, and as a result
of sin there are some consequences. And then the other
thing is, it depends on who you talk to. Are
you talking to a believer or a non-believer? I found
(38:21):
out that that, uh, my approach is going to be different.
S1 (38:25):
Uh, people. Isabella. Isabella. If you don't mind, let me.
Let me jump in for just a moment. And I
only do that because of time, first off. You sound
like you have tremendous experience in a in a lot
of wisdom as you navigate this. And I want to
give you a copy of Amy's book. But, Amy, real
quickly before we go to break and we got about
a minute or so. Um, why is it that people
(38:48):
tend to blame God? And it's interesting because Isabella brings
up something I think, very important. So often we don't
give God credit for the good, but we quickly blame
him when tragedy strikes.
S2 (39:00):
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that we kind of often
in our Western culture, we we live functionally as atheists.
And then when disaster strikes, we, we blame God. Um,
and we haven't even kind of put the money in
the slot machine to try and get that, that, that
God to do what we want. I think that actually
even that impetus to to cry out to God, including
(39:23):
blaming him points to an echo of eternity in people's hearts,
a sense, a deep, intuitive sense that God is there
and that when they experience suffering or evil, that this
isn't how things are meant to be. I think that's
an echo in our hearts of the biblical narrative. You know,
(39:44):
obviously I don't think it's the right response to have,
but I think it's coming from from a hunger for
there to be more and an echo of that truth
that Ecclesiastes says that God has placed eternity in our hearts.
And so I think it's an opportunity for us to
gently point people back towards God actually existing and being
(40:07):
there and saying, oh, that's interesting. You feel that. How
recently did you cry out to him? How have you
prayed recently? Perhaps you too could turn to him today.
S1 (40:17):
What a great invitation. Even in the midst of frustration, pain, heartache,
We can point people to the God that has come
to save our souls. We'll be right back with more
on equip right after this.
S3 (40:34):
Sharing your faith can be challenging. How do you confidently
engage with questions about truth, technology, and culture while staying
grounded in Scripture? That's why Kris Brooks has chosen apologetics
for an ever changing culture as our gift. When you
support equip this month, it will help you provide thoughtful,
informed answers to the pressing questions of our time. Request
(40:58):
your copy today with a gift of any amount. Call
(888)Â 644-4144 or visit equip radio.org.
S1 (41:09):
Today's program has been pre-recorded so our phone lines are
not open. Welcome back to equip.
S3 (41:17):
With Kris.
S1 (41:18):
Brooks. Uh, what an amazing, uh, day it is. Um.
I'm so grateful for Amy Orr-ewing dropping by and and
sharing this conversation with us. I pray that it's minister
to your heart and encouraged you in some way. I
want to say thank you to our friends who are
supporting the program financially. As always, I'm so grateful for
(41:41):
your generosity. So Beverly from Franklin, New Hampshire, thank you
so much for becoming a monthly partner. Reginald from Tampa, Florida,
thank you for your generosity. And, uh, thank you to
David Anew, uh, giver to equip from Indiana. So grateful
for you as well. Know that on the other side
of your generosity, lives are being changed and the gospel
(42:05):
is being proclaimed. Our mission is to help you to live, share,
and defend your faith. And I think today's conversation is
an important part of that journey. You can find out
more by going to our website Equip radio. Amy as
we land this plane, I just want to acknowledge a
couple facets of your book that I think are absolutely
(42:26):
critical and brilliant in the construction of your book. First,
it's important to acknowledge not all suffering is the same.
Can you talk about the categories of suffering you address
within the pages of your book?
S2 (42:42):
Yeah. Thank you Chris. That was really important part of
of the approach, not just treating all suffering as a
blob and then kind of applying the answer to it,
as it were, but trying to to think about, you know,
anger and violence and grief and illness and sickness and
(43:04):
actually mental health, mental illness and natural disasters and even
systemic suffering that people experience as, as all kind of
different kinds of experiences of suffering, that different facets of
what the gospel, what the Bible has to say about suffering.
Connect to those different questions really profoundly. And, um, and
(43:27):
trying to show that, that, that what that means is
that there's real depth in the scriptures and in the
Christian worldview when it comes to our individual experiences of
human suffering.
S1 (43:41):
It is so critical that we understand that there's there's
not only depth, but there is there's answers. And one
of the things that you've helped us to see today
is that the Bible does not run from this question.
As a matter of fact, you could argue that this
is one of the most prevalent questions within the scriptures. And, uh, and,
and the Bible's speaking of this is, uh, is is
(44:04):
real time. It is both timeless and timely. Um, but
I do want to talk about this, this final chapter,
The Suffering Servant. What is it about this suffering servant
that answers the Here's the question of why suffering.
S2 (44:19):
So I think what we find uniquely in the Christian
faith is not just, um, a kind of framework that
explains how the world could be like it is not
just an answer to why do we experience rage and
what's the importance of love with within, um, answering questions
about suffering, but that we actually meet God in the flesh,
(44:45):
God in human history, in the person of Jesus. And
when the prophet Isaiah looked forward from his day to
the coming of God in history, he prophesied someone who
would come and suffer that God with us would look
like a person taking up our pain and bearing our suffering.
(45:09):
And um, so this image of, of, of, of God
as a suffering servant is a total anomaly in other
religious thought, you know. Certainly within Islam or within the
kind of contemporary Greco-Roman religion of the time when of
when Jesus came, but actually a God who would suffer
(45:29):
God on a cross, God who would be whipped and
stripped and beaten and shamed, who would experience excruciating physical trauma,
who would identify with, with, you know, the body keeps
the score as we know now as we, you know,
learn more about human trauma and mental health. And we
know the interplay of physical suffering and psychological and spiritual suffering.
(45:54):
And all of that is is described in the scriptures.
And the Bible talks about God demonstrating and showing his
love for us in the Son of God, suffering with
us and for us. And so in Jesus we encounter
a God who's not remote, who doesn't pity us, who
doesn't sort of Sensitive, even just empathize with us and feel,
(46:17):
you know, bad for us that that that we go
through suffering. But who in Jesus has suffered the very
worst of what this world has to offer and has
done that redemptively has done it in a way that
that takes our sin, that takes the darkness of this
world into himself, and then through his death and his resurrection,
(46:39):
redeems this world, and so offers us hope and meaning
and purpose through the very suffering of the Son of
God and ultimately, eternal life.
S1 (46:50):
Amy, I can't thank you enough for your wisdom and
and encouragement towards hope in these pages. Friends, I encourage
you to get a copy of Where Is God in
All the Suffering? Go to our website and until we're
together again next time, remember, equipped with Chris Brooks is
a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Please enjoy this encore edition of equip with Chris Brooks. Well,
hey there friends, welcome to another exciting edition of equip
with Chris Brooks. I'm thrilled that you've joined us today.
Can you do me a favor? Strap on your seatbelt.
We're going to navigate through the contours of culture, as always,
with the lens of the biblical worldview on. But before
(00:37):
we do that, let me remind you, this is the
day that the Lord has made. He is giving it
as a gift so that you and I can rejoice
and be glad in it. So let's do just that.
Let's follow the words of the Apostle Paul. Let's rejoice
in the Lord always. And again I say, rejoice. You know,
some topics and discussion that we have here on equip
(00:59):
may seem far away, maybe lofty or academic, uh, somewhat
out of reach. We try our best to make even
those topics approachable and easy to understand and interact with.
But then there are certain topics that hit close to
home that is fully relatable to all of us. Such
(01:19):
is the case today. Today I want to talk about suffering.
More particularly, why God allows pain and suffering and evil.
Every one of us have experienced pain and suffering or
devastating events that have rocked our world and left us,
maybe even with deep doubts about God's goodness. Bewildered, confused,
(01:43):
and with many, many questions. And those questions beg for
and demand an explanation. And the hurts and the deep
wounds of our souls demand for healing. And so maybe
you're listening to me today, and you have been processing
through a broad devastation like the pandemic we've been going through,
(02:04):
or the realities of war, or living in a neighborhood
in which violence is all too prevalent. Or maybe on
a more personal level, you're asking questions like, why does
God allow cancer or car accidents or a child to die?
Today I want to take on those tough questions, as
we always do here on equip. We know we don't
(02:26):
run from the tough questions. We run to those questions
with humility, but with a great confidence that it's in
the question that God finds us, that we discover that
the Christian worldview is not just intellectually tenable, but it
actually answers the deepest questions of the heart and the
deepest longings of our mind as well. Today, I'm grateful
(02:50):
for a resource that I highly commend to you. It's
entitled Where Is God in All the Suffering? It's by, um,
an author that, uh. I can't speak highly enough of
that I respect and appreciate deeply Doctor Amy Orr Ewing.
If you have followed her ministry, you know her well
as a thoughtful theologian, a speaker, an apologist, and an author. Uh,
(03:16):
but Amy is someone who is not just an academic,
but she has lived a life that has, uh, not
only been in service to our Savior, but also experienced
deep suffering herself. Amy holds a doctorate of theology from
the University of Oxford. She is also the co-founder of reboot,
(03:36):
an innovative youth initiative aimed at helping teenagers think deeply
about faith, which now runs in countries all over the world.
She and her husband, frog, minister together, uh, in Oxford
and are just tremendous people and, uh, and I'm grateful
for them and their three boys. Amy, how are you today?
S2 (03:59):
Hi, Chris. That's such a generous introduction. Thank you. I'm. I'm. Well.
The sun for once is shining in the UK. I'm well.
Thank you.
S1 (04:08):
Well, you know.
S2 (04:09):
It's just such a joy to be with you. Honestly,
I love and respect you and so much so it's
it's great to have this time together. Thank you.
S1 (04:18):
Well, you know, I jokingly say that it seems like
England gets three days of summer, and that may be
that may, may be an.
S2 (04:26):
Overstatement right now. Yeah, exactly.
S1 (04:28):
So enjoy. Enjoy. But I appreciate you carving out time
to be with us. Uh, there's so much that has
been written on this topic. It seems to me, uh, Amy,
that the question of why suffering is, um, ubiquitous. It
is one of the most common questions that we've, uh,
we all ask, regardless of belief or background. It is old.
(04:52):
It is one of the oldest questions of humanity, even
dating back to the book of Job. Um, it is
a question that seems to, uh, be universal as well,
and repeated again and again and again. But with all
that said, it seems like it is still yet one
of the most difficult topics to write on. Um, was
(05:14):
that the case for you as you wrote this book,
and why is it so hard for us, even after
all these centuries and millennia? Why is it hard to
write on and talk about the question of suffering?
S2 (05:27):
Thank you for that question. Yeah, I mean, I, I
waited a long time, you know, 20 years in ministry
before writing this book. And yes, it's really hard to
write on it. Um, I think that's fair for a
number of reasons. Firstly, because, you know, anyone who approaches
this question without a kind of deep personal, um, humility
(05:51):
or without, you know, personal experience of really devastating things,
that sort of approach isn't, isn't going to connect with
the heart of this question. And it's it's hard to
come at it because there is an intellectual component. We
do have the rational question? How could God be good
(06:12):
and loving? And this be the world that is, how
could what has just happened to me happen? If it's
true that God loves me and that's that's an intellectual question,
but it's also a profoundly personal and experiential question. So
navigating those two layers well is really difficult. And, you know,
I believe the Bible uniquely does that. It's not a
(06:34):
sort of dusty philosophical tome. It's it's profoundly rooted in
the real world that we experience where people are raped
and people are murdered and people die accidental deaths young, um,
where there are natural disasters, all of those things happen
in the Bible. And there's also a kind of seriousness
(06:54):
in the scriptures about the profound intellectual challenge as well.
So I do believe the Christian faith has something, um,
to offer in this question that we all face as
human beings. But, um, you know, it's a daunting task to,
to to take it on and to to deeply consider
(07:15):
it and to do that work ourselves.
S1 (07:18):
Um, we share a lot in common, but one of
the things I know you bring to this moment is
a pastoral sensitivity, if you will, uh, to the fact
that we are going to discuss this not just merely
from an intellectual perspective, but I recognize there are people
that are hurting there, even as we started this program.
(07:39):
I share it with you that here at our church
there is a dear and very precious family whose husband
or wife whose husband was in a car accident today.
Devastating car accident. And um, and only according to doctors,
have but hours to live. And our entire team has been, uh,
(08:00):
trying to support and care for this family. But this
for us is, uh, all too real. And, uh, from
a ministry perspective, this comes so often. Uh, so I
guess my my question to you is the temptation that
often arises among Christians is to simply say, just have faith. Uh,
(08:25):
just have faith. Just trust God. Don't explore the deeper questions.
Try to suppress those things. Ignore those things. But at
least for the wife that I talked to this morning,
her question continued to be why would God allow this
to happen? My husband is a good man. Why would
this happen? What's wrong, Amy, with us simply saying, just
(08:48):
have faith.
S2 (08:50):
Well, I think it's not biblical. So the scriptures are
full of the agonizing questions of people in pain. And,
you know, we believe the Lord ordained those holy scriptures
that he inspired them. And in the Bible, questions like.
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You
(09:12):
are so far from saving me. God or I cry
out to you and you do not answer. Or Psalm 42.
Why have you forgotten me? God I'm in. I'm in trouble.
And my foes are saying, where is your God? Or,
you know, we think of, of of the prophet Habakkuk
who says, how long, Lord, must I cry for help?
(09:35):
And you do not listen? Or Jobe, who says, God,
is it pleasing you to oppress me? So you know,
within the scriptures we have this this language of lament
and agony and pain and even articulations of doubt in
the goodness of God. And and those are there in
(09:56):
the Bible for us. There's a sort of vehicle of,
of prayer and words that, you know, are deeply and
profoundly human, because if we're going to be real about it,
we think, well, if if I had power, you know,
I wouldn't let this happen to to someone I loved.
So therefore, you know, God has got power. How could
(10:17):
he let this happen to me if it's true that
he loves me so that that question is real and
it is voiced by people in the Bible. And so
I think the first thing I'd want to say is
that if you are going through a devastating time of
loss or, you know, a horrific, shocking experience or even
just normal grief of, you know, someone dying of old
(10:41):
age and you're experiencing that profound grief, the Bible is
here for you. The loving God of the Bible has
given us words, um, and given us prayers and given
us an acknowledgment of of what it feels like to
be in this kind of situation. And we are not
required to pretend we're okay and we're not required to just,
(11:05):
you know, steel ourselves and say, well, I'm just going
to have faith and pretend that everything's okay. No, faith
is is rooted in reality. And it begins, you know,
at this, at this kind of truthfulness of of what
it means to endure suffering.
S1 (11:22):
Um, there there is, um, certain statements you can't make
unless you have walked through the journey of suffering in
deep ways. You know, I share your resume and some
of the accolades, which I think is appropriate when introducing
a guest. But in your book, you also, um, in
(11:42):
a very vulnerable way, share about suffering that you've experienced, uh,
as well as from your husband. And, and I'm grateful
that you don't just write with the pen of an academic,
but you give us a little bit of a peek
behind the curtain of what it's like, to go through
deep suffering. But I want to ask this question, Amy,
(12:05):
what is your hope for those who pick up? Where
is God and all the suffering?
S2 (12:12):
My hope is that, um, that that people who feel, um,
lost or alone or like in real difficulty as to
how God could be loving and you know, what they're
going through be happening that that through reading this book,
they would begin to find some peace in their own
(12:34):
questions and own experiences and feelings, but also a deeper
grasp of, of of who this loving God is and
what it really means that, um, he is for them
and that that that God has not left us alone
in this, in this suffering world, and that there's ultimate
(12:55):
hope in the person of Jesus and of course, ultimate
hope in life beyond the grave. So I want people
to experience, I guess, a freedom to genuinely process trauma, doubt, devastation, loss, grief,
(13:16):
you know, mental health collapses, illness, um, and catastrophic things happening.
And to do that in a way that is honest
and in the midst of that processing, to encounter the
God of the Bible, who who genuinely loves this world, us,
you know, as, as we suffer.
S1 (13:37):
So here's what we're going to do, friends. We're going
to open up the phone lines, because as I talk
to Amy and interview her about the content of her books,
I also want to create space, safe space to process
with you the questions of your own heart and the
pain and aches of your own soul. Maybe you've gone
(13:57):
through a devastation that has left you feeling lost or alone.
Maybe you're searching for answers. Searching more for peace. Maybe
you need a deeper grasp of God's goodness and his grace. Today,
I believe that it's not a coincidence that you're listening in.
(14:18):
That God sees you. He loves you. And we want
to process with you. The phone number is 87756758775483675 is
the number. Um, maybe the pain that you're going through
is fresh. Or maybe it is decades old, but yet
(14:40):
still very, very much present in your life. And you're
asking the question, Where is God in all the suffering? 87754833675.
Such a blessing to have Amy Orr Ewing with us today.
Don't go anywhere. Much more to come. Next up on
equipped with Chris Brooks. We live in a culture whose
(15:06):
needs and obstacles to faith are constantly shifting. Sean McDowell's
book apologetics for an Ever Changing Culture, addresses many current
issues and will help you share and defend the gospel.
S3 (15:19):
With relevant answers. It's our thank you gift for supporting
equipped this month. We'll send you a copy with your
gift of any amount to equipped. Just call (888)Â 644-4144 or
visit equipped radio.org. That's (888)Â 644-4144 or online at equipped radio.org.
S1 (15:43):
Chris Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded.
While we won't be taking calls, we do want to
connect with you on social media. Welcome back to equipped
with Chris Brooks. So grateful for all of our friends
who prayerfully and financially support the ministry. If that's you,
(16:04):
thank you. We realize that we are here every day
because of God's grace in your generosity. So grateful for you.
Maybe you've been listening to the program and you've been
blessed by our guests topics and resources. And you say,
you know, I've listened. I've not supported the program, but
I would love to. Today you can do so either
by by becoming a monthly partner or a generous one
(16:27):
time tax deductible gift. Visit our website equipped radio.org. That's
equipped radio.org. To find out more. Today my guest, Doctor
Amy Orr-ewing. We're talking about her newest book, Where Is
God in All the Suffering? Amy, uh, you kind of
dive in in the book pretty, pretty head first, if
(16:49):
you will. In your first chapter, you take up the
question of asking why? And there have been, over time,
several options given, uh, by various, uh, various religious groups
or various uh, ideologies. One is karma. You take that up,
the other is is fate. Uh, the other is, uh,
(17:13):
thought that secular atheism gives us and that is, that is, uh, meaninglessness.
But but what is the biblical answer? Why? Why suffering?
S2 (17:23):
Thank you. Chris, I think it's really important to realize
it's not only the Bible that needs to give an answer.
It's not only Christians that need to give an answer
to this. So alongside those options that you've mentioned of
karma and fate and what materialism has to offer, meaninglessness.
The Bible, um, begins in the book of Genesis with
this glorious vision of what it means to be human,
(17:45):
describing the man and the woman, male and female, as
being created in the image of God and talks about
God creating a good world, and specifically a world within
which love is possible. And we we all know if
we think about love and if we think about our
(18:05):
human relationships, that for love to be real, it can't
be compelled. There has to be an element of a
person having autonomy and making a decision to give or
or withhold love. And so the Bible speaks about the
man and the woman made in the image of God
having that capacity to to make decisions. And then ultimately,
(18:29):
you know, being agents who are responsible for the decisions
that we make, but that the man and the woman,
Adam and Eve, use that capacity to choose. They use
it to to harm as well as to love. And
so as a result of human will, sin and suffering
(18:50):
and death and darkness and disease come into this world.
And then for the rest of the Bible, we we
see and recognize the world that we experience today, which
is where there's a real beauty and a preciousness about life.
But there's also this, this darkness. There's also disappointment. There's
(19:11):
also devastation. There's natural disasters. There's death and suffering and cancer.
And those things don't seem to have a direct relationship
to the way that someone has, you know, morally lived.
So the, the, the biblical kind of reasoning is not, well,
you know, you did this bad thing. And so tomorrow
(19:34):
this equally or even worse thing is going to happen
to you. The biblical idea is that we are now
all living in a world where we are living with
the legacy and the impact of human exercise of will
that has brought harm and sin into this world. And
(19:54):
so Christians, people who follow Jesus as well as unbelievers
will be impacted by that fallen world. We will suffer.
Jesus never says, come to me, follow me, and you
won't suffer that disaster, that car accident, that illness won't
happen to you. He says, follow me. And in this
(20:15):
world you're going to experience trouble. But he offers us
this kind of eternal life that is life beyond the
grave and is experienced today, but it's experienced in the
midst of the suffering world. So suffering is a consequence
of the possibility of love. And the beginning of the
Bible kind of brings that explanation. Um, and then the
(20:38):
the middle of the Bible where Jesus comes and, and
enters the world and suffers for us as a demonstration
of love, gives us another insight into God and suffering.
And then at the end of the Bible, there's this
promise of hope, of life beyond the grave, where if
we know the Lord, if he saved us, then he
(21:00):
will wipe tears from our eyes. The questions and issues
of suffering will be resolved ultimately in that eternal life.
S1 (21:10):
I love what Matt Redman, singer songwriter, says about your book.
He says Amy isn't afraid to face the tough questions
of life, and in this brilliant book she takes on
one of the toughest of all. And she does. And
she does it in a caring but yet clear and
cogent way. So I'm encouraging you get the book today
(21:31):
for yourself or for someone you love. Go to our website, npr.org.
Click on today's program details. You can find out ordering
information there. Amy, as I promised, I want to go
to the phone lines. Many are calling and Tara is
listening in Georgia. Tara, thank you so much for listening.
(21:51):
What's your question today for Amy?
S4 (21:54):
Well, Chris, to give you a little bit of background,
we have, um, thank you for taking my call first.
We lost a daughter 17 months ago in a shooting,
and it was very violent and very traumatic. And, um,
I found myself on a daily basis. I had to
(22:15):
even quit my job. But I find myself daily struggling
to hear the voice of the Lord and to feel
his presence in my heart and in my spirit. Um,
many times recently, I have been on my knees and
I guess my question is, how do you push through
the silence and the doubt and the fear when you
(22:37):
lose a child? And how do you find the joy
of the Lord?
S5 (22:42):
Yeah. Yeah.
S2 (22:44):
Thank you, Tara, for that. I'm so sorry to hear
what happened to your child. It's just unimaginable. And our
hearts and prayers are with you right now. And I'm
sure that's true for every single person who's who's listening
to this. And, you know, as I as I just
pray for you right now, I kind of sense two things.
(23:06):
One is that, um, in the Bible, we, we encounter
a God who, because he is loving, is a God
of justice. And so as we hear about the loss
of your daughter and what has happened to you and
the violence that that you describe, actually we can we
(23:27):
can trust God to bring about justice, ultimately. And, um,
we can kind of give our feelings of, of, of
anger and our desire for, for justice to be done
in a situation like that to him. And ultimately, um,
we can know there's a kind of hope in knowing
(23:48):
that he will set that right ultimately. Because. Because he's
the judge. And then, um, the second thing I wanted
to say is that, you know, there's this beautiful portrait
of the Lord Jesus in John's gospel in chapter 11,
when his friend Lazarus has died and Lazarus two sisters,
(24:10):
Mary and Martha, were really good friends of Jesus, and
they were so, um, disappointed with him that he hadn't
got there soon enough to prevent this death. And the
shortest verse in the Bible says that Jesus wept. And
I just sensed that God's love for you right now
(24:32):
is expressed in the Son of God, who weeps at
the tomb of someone who's lost their life. And he
doesn't rush on from that weeping. And that's there in
the Bible as, as a vision of a of a
loving God. And so, um, as you cry out to
(24:53):
him and as, as, you know, we pray for you now, I,
I just pray that the Lord Jesus, who who weeps
with you over this loss, would just pour his love
into your heart and that you would experience his presence
even right now.
S1 (25:10):
Let me pray for you, Tara. Father, I thank you
that you are comfort even in the deepest of pain
in our time of need. You invite us to come
to you and Lord you, um. You wipe away our
tears and you comfort our hearts. Lord, I pray that
for terror that you would sense your presence near, that
she would hear your voice, reminding her that you love her.
(25:33):
And I pray, Lord, that you would just carry her
through this difficult moment, reminding her that you are making
all things new Your promise is that where you are,
she will be with you. That is the hope that
we have in this life and in the life to come.
Blessed her. We pray. In Jesus name. Amen. These calls. Um,
(25:56):
never have enough time. And so, Tara, one of the
things that we want to do is bless you with
a complimentary copy of Where Is God and All the Suffering?
And we pray that it's an encouragement to your heart.
Many are calling in. Please stay on the line. Amy's
going to stay with us. We'll be right back. Chris
Brooks here reminding you that today's program is pre-recorded and
(26:19):
we won't be taking your calls. Welcome back to We
Quit with Chris Brooks. Grateful for you listening in. I
pray that our program is an encouragement to your heart,
and if so, we do encourage you to share it. Uh,
go to your social platforms. Just click that share button
(26:41):
so that other friends, family members and loved ones can
be encouraged as well. Today we're having a fascinating conversation
with Doctor Amy Orr-ewing about her latest book, Where Is
God in All the Suffering? Maybe you have experienced personal
devastation and events that have left you questioning God. Where
(27:01):
are you? Uh, I believe the book would speak powerfully
to you, but maybe the question is something broader and
bigger and and at least from a, a, um, a
corporate perspective asking questions about why is there so much
evil in the world, why is there war and suffering?
If God is real and all loving and all powerful?
(27:25):
I think the book speaks powerfully to you as well.
So whether you read it as an individual or as
a pastor, teach through it to your church family. I
just want to encourage you to take on the question
as Amy guides us through how we can answer with
compassion and with clarity. Find out more at Equip radio.org.
(27:48):
That's equip radio.org. Um, Amy, oftentimes when we experience deep
hurt and pain, uh, the response that we eventually come
to is a place of anger. Where does that anger
come from? And what does that reveal to us about God's, uh,
(28:10):
not only reality, but his working even in our lives?
S2 (28:13):
Yeah, that's one of the things I really wanted to
explore in the book, because I think in Christian circles,
we can have a tendency to sort of try and
dampen down people's emotions of anger as if, you know,
maybe that that would be ungodly. But actually, um, what
we see in, in the scriptures is, um, if you like,
(28:37):
a Her foundation for why we would experience rage or
anger when someone really suffers. Is his experience with violence,
or is is harmed in some profound way. If you
think about it like this, um, without, uh, God existing, um,
all human life is just biochemistry. We're just a blob
(29:02):
of cells, and we don't have any kind of deeper
purpose or meaning in our lives. We're just the sum
of the physical matter of our bodies. And so, you know,
we don't really mind if, you know, a blob of
matter is, is crushed, um, or discarded in some way.
But we do mind when that happens to a human being.
(29:25):
And actually, you know, even evolutionary sort of survival instincts
can't explain why we care. Um, about people suffering who,
you know, we don't have even a survival instinct to
care about someone we're not connected to who's not a
blood relative. So that instinct to experience rage and to
(29:48):
cry for justice points to that profound truth about what
it means to be human. It points to a transcendent
source for life. It points to the fact that we
are just more than our bodies. There's a metaphysical dimension
to our lives. Our lives have a sacred value because
we've been created in the image of God. And that
(30:11):
means that our lives matter on an eternal level. And
that means when someone is raped or attacked or murdered
or crushed by systemic injustice, it matters at a profound level,
more than just the sum of their biological body suffering,
(30:31):
that it matters much more deeply. And the Christian faith
gives us a foundation for that. And as I said earlier,
it also gives us a language even for that, for
that rage and an ability to kind of voice that
that to God and that he is big enough to
take that and we're not left in rage. Ultimately, we're
(30:52):
brought to Christ. We're led to Christ. And, you know,
we're called to kindness. But but rage at injustice is
an integral part of what it means not just to
be human, but what it means to be a Christian
as well.
S1 (31:04):
So few of us have been taught on how to mourn. Well,
when my wife and I went through the loss of
our son, it was new territory for us. We had
not been, uh, trained in all of our time in
study and in communion with the people of God. That
was an area of our relationship with God that needed
(31:25):
severely to be developed. But I'm grateful for books like
yours that, uh, recognize that the soul grows in many
ways and and deepens in its capacity to receive the
grace of God. When we are honest and truthful about
things like our anger, our disappointment, and it reveals the
(31:46):
the very reality of a just God, a moral lawgiver
who has created the world for not death, but life.
And it was something broken that's here that we have
to recognize. I do want to ask a question, though.
So many of our questions have been pastoral, but I'm
going to ask a parental question in just a moment.
(32:07):
But let me give the number again. And maybe you're
processing your own question of pain, suffering and evil. Or
maybe you're trying to help a son or a daughter
process I'll never forget. Um, me and my wife saying,
how are we going to explain this to our children
that their brother isn't here anymore? And maybe you're there.
Maybe you're wondering, how do I explain this devastation to
(32:30):
a child, a son or daughter or grandchild? Out. Let's, uh,
let's open up the phone lines again. 8775675 is the number.
That's 877548 3675. You dedicate this book to your, uh,
your three awesome sons. Uh, Zach, JJ, Benji. And I
(32:52):
think that that is so precious as a mom, when
you think about all the suffering that you've had to
process your own life personally, uh, the news, the the
stuff that's happening around the world, how do you advise
parents to take up this conversation with their children?
S5 (33:10):
Um.
S2 (33:12):
I, I think we need to begin it early. You know,
in all the work I do in apologetics and evangelism
around the world with university students and people working in
business and, and as well with teenagers, I so often
come across young people who've grown up in Christian homes,
(33:33):
for whom it is a shock that someone who has
led a good life as a Christian who's been faithful
will suffer. And it's it's it's brought about sometimes doubt
to the point of walking away from the faith because
they've been raised with a vision of experiencing blessing as
(33:54):
a sign of God's love. And so, um, I've just
felt it's it's really important for, for my three sons to,
you know, grow up with an understanding of what the
fall actually means. What does Genesis 1 to 3 really mean?
And to grow up knowing Christians who are persecuted and
(34:17):
to hear stories of, you know, some of the most
heroic church planters and followers of Jesus, some of the
people who see the most incredible miracles in their ministries
around the world are also people who really suffer, including,
you know, early death or cancer or the loss of
loved ones. And so, um, to, to encourage our children
(34:42):
to invite Jesus into their experience of suffering, to encourage
our children to expect that in the Christian life, as
we follow him, we are going to go through loss
to encourage our children that it is okay to articulate
doubt and questions, and also to encourage our children to
(35:05):
look with hope towards the life to come that we're
passing through this earth, this life, you know, the material
things that we acquire, the joys and the sorrows that
we go through in this life are not all there is.
We were made for, you know, another world as well.
And that eternity with Jesus is what is what we're
(35:25):
living for. And I think to have those conversations, not
just when the devastating, shocking thing happens, but in the
course of life at meal tables, even as we, you know,
read books or listen to movies, to to introduce those
truths and realities so that we're living our lives orientated
(35:48):
scripturally and, and then when loss comes, there's a foundation
that has has been laid there to, to help us
process it.
S1 (35:57):
You know, as parents, we often assume that the best
approach is to shield our children from these things. And
that is certainly the natural reflex, if you will. But
in the world of technology, where there's screens everywhere, it
becomes nearly impossible to fully protect them or shield them
from these things. And what I hear you saying, which
(36:19):
I agree with and um, and, and would affirm, is
that it is so much better for us to shepherd
them through it, to engage them with it, to give
them space, to process their own questions, and to try
our best to help them to know that we're on
the journey with them. And we're looking to God and
(36:40):
His Word together. Let's quickly, uh, I got about a
minute before our next break, but let's quickly take Isabella.
Isabella is listening in Jackson, Mississippi. Isabella, thank you so
much for listening to equip. What's your comment today?
S6 (36:57):
I'm enjoying the message today. Um, I love the author's response.
It is just awesome. Uh, one of the things this, uh,
I've worked at a church for about 22 years, and
one of the things that I have, uh, discovered in, uh,
just talking with people when things happen is that, uh,
(37:18):
we focus so much on, uh, now, this is from
my perspective and my dealing with people. My question is
why do we often blame God for when things happen
to us? Yeah, or why do we try to make
excuses for God?
S1 (37:38):
Yeah.
S6 (37:39):
Sometimes I say, I do not know. Those are just
questions I'm throwing out. Sometimes I tell people I don't
know because I don't. Uh, the scripture tells us that
the secret things, there are some secret things that belong
to God. And so we have to, uh, also, I
love the author saying this, and we need to always
(38:01):
go back to this, and it's very difficult for people
to perceive it. But it's true. Speaking the truth in love.
There is sin in our world, and as a result
of sin there are some consequences. And then the other
thing is, it depends on who you talk to. Are
you talking to a believer or a non-believer? I found
(38:21):
out that that, uh, my approach is going to be different.
S1 (38:25):
Uh, people. Isabella. Isabella. If you don't mind, let me.
Let me jump in for just a moment. And I
only do that because of time, first off. You sound
like you have tremendous experience in a in a lot
of wisdom as you navigate this. And I want to
give you a copy of Amy's book. But, Amy, real
quickly before we go to break and we got about
a minute or so. Um, why is it that people
(38:48):
tend to blame God? And it's interesting because Isabella brings
up something I think, very important. So often we don't
give God credit for the good, but we quickly blame
him when tragedy strikes.
S2 (39:00):
Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that we kind of often
in our Western culture, we we live functionally as atheists.
And then when disaster strikes, we, we blame God. Um,
and we haven't even kind of put the money in
the slot machine to try and get that, that, that
God to do what we want. I think that actually
even that impetus to to cry out to God, including
(39:23):
blaming him points to an echo of eternity in people's hearts,
a sense, a deep, intuitive sense that God is there
and that when they experience suffering or evil, that this
isn't how things are meant to be. I think that's
an echo in our hearts of the biblical narrative. You know,
(39:44):
obviously I don't think it's the right response to have,
but I think it's coming from from a hunger for
there to be more and an echo of that truth
that Ecclesiastes says that God has placed eternity in our hearts.
And so I think it's an opportunity for us to
gently point people back towards God actually existing and being
(40:07):
there and saying, oh, that's interesting. You feel that. How
recently did you cry out to him? How have you
prayed recently? Perhaps you too could turn to him today.
S1 (40:17):
What a great invitation. Even in the midst of frustration, pain, heartache,
We can point people to the God that has come
to save our souls. We'll be right back with more
on equip right after this.
S3 (40:34):
Sharing your faith can be challenging. How do you confidently
engage with questions about truth, technology, and culture while staying
grounded in Scripture? That's why Kris Brooks has chosen apologetics
for an ever changing culture as our gift. When you
support equip this month, it will help you provide thoughtful,
informed answers to the pressing questions of our time. Request
(40:58):
your copy today with a gift of any amount. Call
(888)Â 644-4144 or visit equip radio.org.
S1 (41:09):
Today's program has been pre-recorded so our phone lines are
not open. Welcome back to equip.
S3 (41:17):
With Kris.
S1 (41:18):
Brooks. Uh, what an amazing, uh, day it is. Um.
I'm so grateful for Amy Orr-ewing dropping by and and
sharing this conversation with us. I pray that it's minister
to your heart and encouraged you in some way. I
want to say thank you to our friends who are
supporting the program financially. As always, I'm so grateful for
(41:41):
your generosity. So Beverly from Franklin, New Hampshire, thank you
so much for becoming a monthly partner. Reginald from Tampa, Florida,
thank you for your generosity. And, uh, thank you to
David Anew, uh, giver to equip from Indiana. So grateful
for you as well. Know that on the other side
of your generosity, lives are being changed and the gospel
(42:05):
is being proclaimed. Our mission is to help you to live, share,
and defend your faith. And I think today's conversation is
an important part of that journey. You can find out
more by going to our website Equip radio. Amy as
we land this plane, I just want to acknowledge a
couple facets of your book that I think are absolutely
(42:26):
critical and brilliant in the construction of your book. First,
it's important to acknowledge not all suffering is the same.
Can you talk about the categories of suffering you address
within the pages of your book?
S2 (42:42):
Yeah. Thank you Chris. That was really important part of
of the approach, not just treating all suffering as a
blob and then kind of applying the answer to it,
as it were, but trying to to think about, you know,
anger and violence and grief and illness and sickness and
(43:04):
actually mental health, mental illness and natural disasters and even
systemic suffering that people experience as, as all kind of
different kinds of experiences of suffering, that different facets of
what the gospel, what the Bible has to say about suffering.
Connect to those different questions really profoundly. And, um, and
(43:27):
trying to show that, that, that what that means is
that there's real depth in the scriptures and in the
Christian worldview when it comes to our individual experiences of
human suffering.
S1 (43:41):
It is so critical that we understand that there's there's
not only depth, but there is there's answers. And one
of the things that you've helped us to see today
is that the Bible does not run from this question.
As a matter of fact, you could argue that this
is one of the most prevalent questions within the scriptures. And, uh, and,
and the Bible's speaking of this is, uh, is is
(44:04):
real time. It is both timeless and timely. Um, but
I do want to talk about this, this final chapter,
The Suffering Servant. What is it about this suffering servant
that answers the Here's the question of why suffering.
S2 (44:19):
So I think what we find uniquely in the Christian
faith is not just, um, a kind of framework that
explains how the world could be like it is not
just an answer to why do we experience rage and
what's the importance of love with within, um, answering questions
about suffering, but that we actually meet God in the flesh,
(44:45):
God in human history, in the person of Jesus. And
when the prophet Isaiah looked forward from his day to
the coming of God in history, he prophesied someone who
would come and suffer that God with us would look
like a person taking up our pain and bearing our suffering.
(45:09):
And um, so this image of, of, of, of God
as a suffering servant is a total anomaly in other
religious thought, you know. Certainly within Islam or within the
kind of contemporary Greco-Roman religion of the time when of
when Jesus came, but actually a God who would suffer
(45:29):
God on a cross, God who would be whipped and
stripped and beaten and shamed, who would experience excruciating physical trauma,
who would identify with, with, you know, the body keeps
the score as we know now as we, you know,
learn more about human trauma and mental health. And we
know the interplay of physical suffering and psychological and spiritual suffering.
(45:54):
And all of that is is described in the scriptures.
And the Bible talks about God demonstrating and showing his
love for us in the Son of God, suffering with
us and for us. And so in Jesus we encounter
a God who's not remote, who doesn't pity us, who
doesn't sort of Sensitive, even just empathize with us and feel,
(46:17):
you know, bad for us that that that we go
through suffering. But who in Jesus has suffered the very
worst of what this world has to offer and has
done that redemptively has done it in a way that
that takes our sin, that takes the darkness of this
world into himself, and then through his death and his resurrection,
(46:39):
redeems this world, and so offers us hope and meaning
and purpose through the very suffering of the Son of
God and ultimately, eternal life.
S1 (46:50):
Amy, I can't thank you enough for your wisdom and
and encouragement towards hope in these pages. Friends, I encourage
you to get a copy of Where Is God in
All the Suffering? Go to our website and until we're
together again next time, remember, equipped with Chris Brooks is
a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.