From Rail Roots to Leading IANA

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Anne Reinke (00:05):
When we talk about AI, we're just talking about
automation. Really is what we'retalking about. And so where can
we automate in a way that makessense? And I'm with you, the
experiment with digital freightbrokerage was, I don't think a
successful one. I think thereare elements though, that make
it have make sense. Therelationship is too critical,
though, to just obviatecompletely. You cannot get rid

(00:26):
of it, and nor should you,because, as we know, you have to
trust the people you're workingwith. And here in intermodal you
can't get rid of therelationship. I mean, it's sort
of part and parcel of reallywhat the service offering is,
and so how do they use it? And Ithink it's true. Really. How can
we optimize the data that wecollect? They all do collect
data. It's just a question of,are they going to make it
visible, and who are they goingto make it visible?

Blythe Brumleve (00:53):
Welcome into another episode of everything is
logistics, a podcast for thethinkers and the freight. I'm
your host, Blythe Milligan, andwe are proudly presented by SPI
logistics, and we've got a greatepisode for you all today,
because we've got Anne Reinkeback on this show, but this time
she is representing IANA as thepresident and CEO. So we're
going to be talking about thestate of rail, the state of

(01:13):
Intermodal Freight, the upcomingIANA Expo, and everything that
you can expect there. So andwelcome back to the show.

Unknown (01:21):
Blythe, thank you so much. Last time we spoke, you
had a different last name, andnow, one year in almost, I'm so
pleased for you. Things arestill going great. It's not like
a Kim Kardashian situation. Itseems like it's holding strong.

Yes, let's hope so. I'm going to knock on wood.
I just think that, like,hopefully I don't go through
everything that that guy wentthrough the coast. Kind of deals
with with that family, which isa whole whole, you know, box of
time

for another podcast, right? Another podcast.
That's the discussion for them.

I could get into gossip, but, you know,
friend of the show, GraceSharkey, we get into a lot of
California gossip on theKardashian and a Meghan Markle
side of things. But, you know,we'll save that for another
episode, maybe, maybe in thefuture.

That's right.
That's right. Thank you forhaving me back. I

appreciate it.
Oh, absolutely. Because we were,we were talking before the show
got started, and, you know, kindof catching up. You know,
personality wise or personalwise. And then for your side of
things, you actually justrecently made the jump. Tell us
about going from Tia to now.
Ayanna,

yeah. So I had such a wonderful experience at Tia.
And you know the members, aswell as I do, they are sort of
salt of the earth,entrepreneurial folk who really
invest in themselves todifferentiate themselves from
their competition. And it makessense, because there is what,
26,003 PL slash brokers in thespace registered with FMCSA, and

(02:53):
so you really have stiffcompetition, you have to
distinguish yourself. And goingfrom that industry to IANA,
where it's far more scaled,older line industry, right?
Railroads, ocean carriers, Drecarriers, chassis providers, and
three pls. It's just a slightlydifferent feel. And I will say
this, I didn't expect to behere, but Ayanna gave me the

(03:15):
offer, the proverbial offer Icouldn't refuse. And I suppose
because I was in the railindustry for so long, kind of
infects you. It's like acontagion, and you can't get it
out of your blood system. So I'mback, and I'm having a
delightful time so far.

Yeah, because you spent what I think 16 years
at CSX,

that's right, that's right, and 16 years of
like, dizzying heights andplummeting lows and everything
in between. It's never boring.
It is never boring, as you know,in logistics, and it's certainly
never boring the rail

industry. Now, I've heard you say that a couple
times in interviews for prep forthis. I'm curious, because
intermodal, you know, comingfrom the asset based three PL
side of things, intermodal waslike a small department in the
office, and no one really kindof talked to them. And I feel
like maybe that's a little bitof a a larger perception among
like the, I guess, the brokersand the carriers side of things,

(04:11):
outside of the, you know, thethe drayage operators, of
course, why does maybeintermodal have a little bit of
a lower profile, I guess, asawareness is concerned?

Yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons for
that, and many of which I'm sortof focused on to try to change.
But one of, one of the reasons,I think, is it does seem
complex, right? Because whenyou, when you connect with a
carrier, you know that thatcarrier is going to go, Oh, did
he orange? Is a destination,right? And, and what the
complexity of of the intermodalspace is, is designed for a

(04:44):
reason, is the highest and bestuse of each mode, but, and it's,
it's designed to provide sort oftruck like service. But if you
don't know that, and if youdon't understand that
complexity, you sort of feellike, I'm not going to bother.
And part of to you know, back.
Back in 2019 the domesticintermodal market share was
something like 8% of of totalfreight moving here in the

(05:05):
United States. It's gone down to5.9% we have to address that. We
have to change that. And part ofthat has been, you know, because
of the supply chain dysfunctionduring the pandemic, there were
some issues with rail service.
There was issues with all kindsof service but, but great news,
service levels have haveoutperformed now, and we're

(05:27):
doing a lot better. Mycommitment is alright. We're
going to have to educate thefolks as to why it makes sense
to use intermodal.

So let's talk about that. Let's talk about why
it makes sense for intermodal.
If you had a, you know, maybe ashippers that are listening to
this, what would be, I guess,the selling point to them? Sure.
So a

couple things. One is that, if we talk about, and
I'm not going to wade into thedebate of whether there is a
driver shortage or whether thereis not, because Lord knows,
you're going to get calls andletters and all kinds of things.
But let's just say, let's justsay this, that there are fewer
drivers out there who want to golong distances, right as we're

(06:11):
seeing, sort of the agingpopulation, the folks who are
coming in into the truckingspace are really interested in
more of the short hauls, thosethat don't take them away from
their family for long. Well,this is why I say highest and
best use. The railroad can golong distances with great
volumes of commodities at apretty you know, fair to low

(06:36):
price, and we don't have toworry about the capacity needs
or the concerns about whether ornot there's a driver out there
for you, we're not taking trucksout of the equation because
they're there on the last milefirst mile. Nor are we taking
you know, when it comes tointernational intermodal, ocean
carriers are pivotal part ofthat, but we're just saying this

(06:56):
is for the best use of bothsustainability, for the capacity
we have out there and thepopulation who wants to be part
of the move.

And so what I guess, is there an ideal like
set of commodities that move thebest over intermodal.

Well, obviously, you know, your car load and
merchandise freight which moves,you know, that's not intermodal,
but that is what you typicallythink of a railroad, right coal
and grain and ethanol and thatkind of stuff. That's what you
sort of think is because it canbe large quantities of it
dedicated to that train. Butintermodal, you know, you have
these vast array of consumergoods as you know, that are

(07:36):
either pouring into the countryor part of transloads, and it
just because of how much we allare spending on consumer
spending, still not as much,maybe, as we were a year ago,
but still spending it. Justthere is this tremendous volume
that intermodal can take withouthaving to have so many trucks on

(07:56):
the roads doing these longdistances.

Does it? How does, I guess maybe the growth
of like, you know, Mexico orCanada, and they're transloading
opportunities. How impactful isthat to the intermodal side of

things? Yeah, I think there's a lot of folks who
are encouraged about the Mexicancross border traffic. It is
something that it leads tostrong opinions too much like
the driver shortage debate, somepeople who still want to be
engaged in Mexico and somepeople who think it was an

(08:30):
experiment that didn'tparticularly work out for them.
We feel encouraged about it,because certainly there are
commodities that can come intoMexico that are coming in,
perhaps without the tariffs, forexample, that that the US is
experiencing. And, you know,it's just a little the labor,
obviously, is cheaper, so canadd to a competitive rate, that

(08:54):
kind of thing. And Canada, toohas had last month, has enormous
domestic intermodal success aswell. It's to us. It just is
something that is. It's like wecan't always control our own
destiny, right? Because so muchof now is we're in a global
economy, and so so much dependson trade and all of that. But

(09:15):
there still are bright spots forthat, and one believes, I think
maybe you've seen it from, fromwhat you read and your other
guests, that the capacity istightening again, for, for long
haul trucking, right for, for alot of different reasons which
we can get into. And sointermodal seems to be doing
holding its own.

And so I guess when the all of these factors
that are kind of happening andbubbling to the surface right
now. It kind of feels like,especially from hearing you
explain it, that this is almostlike intermodal time to shine
and maybe gain more marketshare.

Well, that's what we hope for. So, so I was hired,
and a couple people have been inmy ear, and we've got to
increase in. Intermodal marketshare. And listen, I believe
that that's one of the majorfacets of the organization,
which is not only to protect andpromote the industry, but it's
also to grow it. And so that'swhat one of the things that
we're doing is we are taking ona PR campaign to target those

(10:17):
beneficial cargo owners, thoseshippers who may have used
intermodal once and didn't likeit, like trying to get them
back, or who have never usedintermodal and have them
consider it. And it'sinteresting. And I'm thinking,
you've heard this, that ifsomeone has a negative carrier
experience, like a shipper has anegative carrier experience,
they just think, we'll just usea different carrier next time.
If they have a negativeintermodal experience, they're

(10:39):
inclined to say, Well, I'm notusing intermodal again. And so
how do we counteract that?
Right? And so, you know, they'reall these smart folks who run ad
campaigns and know all thisstuff how to message that and
and I'm not saying I'm one ofthose people. I just know that
we need to hire those people andand make sure that we have the
right messaging that

resonates. And so with shippers. What maybe
have been some instances thathave left, like, a bad taste in
their mouth, and then maybe,what are some, you know, I
guess, things that you want toshine a light on, on maybe how
that process has improved?

Yeah, I think you'll have to it just all goes
back to service reliability.
Like, is that service reliable?
Is is it going to get to whereit gets to when they say it's
going to get there. And duringthe pandemic, there were service
reliability issues, I thinkthat's pretty well known. And
again, for a number of reasons,some that that there had been a

(11:33):
kind of decline in railemployment, and so they had to
ramp back up, because there wasno expectation that we'd all be
sitting home ordering things onmass, but lo and behold, we sure
did. We sure did. And so I thinkif that, if you had your
interaction during a period ofpoor service or unreliable

(11:55):
service, I think it might, youmight have to be convinced that
you should go back and so that,to us, is something that we can
do, because we now know theservice is so vastly improved.
And I will tell you, and Idon't, I'm not going to opine on
any M and A activity, whetherit's good, bad or different, but
I will say what's nice to hearfrom all of the railroads is

(12:17):
their commitment to intermodaland how they recognize that it
is the sort of their stake inthe ground that's where they see
real, real growth. And so it'snot just this kind of imaginary
thing. It's they are committed,and they're a critical component
of it, of success, ofintermodal.

And so there's, obviously, you know, the big
companies that everybody hasheard of, you know, there's, you
know, lots of merger talk thatthat's going on right now, and,
and, but I'm curious as to theother side of things. So what
does the rest of the landscapeof intermodal look like? Maybe,
from a technical perspective, isthere a boom going on, sort of
very similar to what brokers andcarriers are experiencing with

(12:58):
lots of new tech being almostlike forced down their throats.
Is that same thing happening onthe intermodal side of things?

Yeah, I think, you know, as I said at the outset,
the three PL folk are reallyfocused on, on investing in
themselves, because there arethey have such competition. And
so it may be a little bit of aslower application, but it is,
is absolutely being consideredand for from a bunch of
different reasons, not justbecause customers are demanding

(13:26):
it and which they are, but alsobecause of the threat of cargo
theft and not being able tocounteract the horrible folk in
the middle of the night who arestealing, you know, from
containers, or the wholecontainer, or what have you. And
so having some sort oftechnology to counteract that, I

(13:49):
think, is what others arefocusing on. And it does look it
makes it a complicatedproposition to add too much, too
many bells and whistles to anintermodal product, because then
you're starting to make itunattractive by making it
expensive. But it, I think, youknow it is, it is something that
they're committed to, becausethey understand there's a

(14:10):
customer expectation for

that. And so for, I guess maybe some of that
technology is what like trackinginside of a rail car, or how
does that I guess that I guessthat work. Is that the one the
responsibility of the CSX is ofthe world, or is that
responsibility on whoever ownsthat box?

Yeah, so it's interesting. You say that,
because I think there is,there's a few different owners
at stake, so to speak. So thecontainer itself is owned by one
entity, right? And the theactual beneficial cargo is owned
by another entity, and then itgoes on to, you know, motor
carrier in a chassis andrailroad. So it is complicated

(14:52):
in terms of responsibility thatbeing said as part of that kind
of overall service package, youcan have those. Discussions with
the beneficial cargo owner inthe container. Just container
owner to say, here's what wethink would be best. Is it like
the best kind of seal? Forexample, here's why having the

(15:14):
best kind of seal makes sense.
It may be slightly morechallenging to open, but that's
for your you know, people at thewarehouse at the end of the
line, but that's actually good.
That's optimal. We want it to bechallenging to open because of
all the things we're talkingabout with cargo theft and
everything else. And so, yeah, Ithink it has to be part of the

(15:35):
larger discussion and really aneducation process so that the
cargo owner can say to thecontainer folk, this is what we
would want, right? And make surethat there is an understanding
as to what the benefits are ofthat.

Now, when I think of cargo theft, it mostly
goes to like the trucking sideof things, where, you know, a
driver is, you know, nefarious,and he picks up a load and takes
it to, you know, a warehousethat he's working in cahoots
with. And they all kind of sell,you know, the merchandise that
that's inside, and they're allkind of in on it with
intermodal, like I've seen, youknow, some of those clips. I'm

(16:11):
sure everybody has, you know,mean, the port of, are they
whipping into the stuff? Yeah.
And there's just packages, youknow, kind of everywhere I've
seen that. But what does, Iguess, cargo crime look like in
the intermodal space? Is it?
Obviously, it's not like, youknow, a bunch of bandits running
up on horses and taking over atrain. Like, what does it look

like? Yeah, now, cartoon representation. Now
they're in SUVs and taking overa train, yeah? Well, so I, you
know, if you talk to the kind ofsmart folks who are, who are
doing the security for the forthe different operations, the
railroads, etcetera, they wouldsay, Well, there's two kinds of
of cargo theft. There's thiskind of crime of opportunity,

(16:53):
which is to what you're saying,you know, these people who see a
container, and it may be thetrain is stopped because it's
waiting, you know, for anothertrain to clear, or what have
you. And so then they rip intoit, and they screw all the stuff
around, and they, you know, getit. So that isn't just kind of
this unplanned sort of thing,but it's, it's obviously
incredibly costly and not greatfor a lot of different reasons.

(17:17):
And then you have your strategictheft and the strategic fact
after the folks who really knowwhere things are at a certain
place, and they know what's inthat container, and they know
how to get it, and so it couldbe an intermodal yard, they can
cut the fences to get into theintermodal yard. And that could
be, you know, the the containeris sitting on a chassis, or that
container is just sitting in theyard, or that container is

(17:38):
sitting on a truck, or thatcontainer is sitting on a train,
and they know that it's a bunchof Air Jordans that just came
out. And how do they know thesethings? It could be that there's
some inside operation. It's hardto know, but somehow these
thieves know more so than likethe rest of us, what are in
these containers, and that is anorganized criminal element. And

(18:00):
to many, to many of these, theseincidences have been connected
to cartels. And so what makes itso challenging is that it's not
just, you know, Joey thief,right? Like these are people who
may not be even in the UnitedStates, who it's very hard to
get a reach of. And as Imentioned, if let's just say

(18:20):
something happens on the road,meaning it's like, either it
left a facility, and so it'seither out there on the railroad
tracks or out there on theroads. It's hard to know where
these things happen. If you'restopped for some period of time,
it's hard to say, hey, you knowSheriff this happened? And the
sheriff's going to say, Well,where did it happen in my
jurisdiction? You're like, Idon't actually know, right? And

(18:44):
so that's what also, all of theenforcement issues make are
challenging in that regard.

And that's where maybe more technology is
kind of trying to be forced intothe conversation where you can
maybe answer some of thosequestions. Do those kinds of
solutions exist for intermodal

they do. And so there, there are companies out
there that have sensors on thecontainer doors, for example.
And so those companies candetect if a container door is
being opened, and can notify therailroad operator that this is
happening. And so then thatrailroad operator can, or, you

(19:24):
know, or the drayage providercan then try to send their own
security or try to see ifthere's a way to to combat that
before anything gets out ofcontrol. And so there have been,
typically, this is what I hear.
I'm not a thief, so I don'tknow, but typically, these kind
of like container heist, or like30 minutes from start to finish.
Oh, wow. So if there's a way, ifyou can sense immediately if

(19:45):
that container door being open,there is a chance. I mean, it's
not huge, but there's a chancethat you can stop it before it's
all gone. Do you know howthey're they could potentially
stop it? I mean, it just feelslike such. Short window of time
that you have to act, yeah, so,you know, there, there are
railroad police, for example.

(20:06):
And so those railroad police, ifthey're in the jurisdiction, if
they're in the vicinity, cancome up, and it's obviously, you
know, it's up to their protocolsas to how they how they handle
that, and I wouldn't be able totell you exactly how they handle
it, but if they are, and ifthey're able to catch these
folks proverbially red handed,there is an opportunity. Or they

(20:27):
can just call the 911, and andreport it if they don't want to
handle themselves. Or they'renot our own police, yeah, if
they're not

forces or, you know, SUVs chasing them down,
the bandits on

a train. Jesse James. Jesse James, there he is,

eye mask and a cowboy hat. And, yeah, you
gotta, gotta come prepared inthe proper outfit if you're
going to

chase down some real thieves. Costuming is so
important.

Recognize you from a far away distance. Now
on, I I know for Tia, you wereinvolved with a lot of you know,
well, maybe not. Maybe this isprevious to Tia. Maybe I'm
messing up the timeline here,but you were helping out with,
like, lobbying efforts forfreight brokers and maybe inside

(21:13):
of, you know, Tia, with advisingon different policy issues and
things like that. Correct me, ifI'm wrong, but are you doing any
of that on the intermodal sideof things now,

yes, and you don't have anything wrong. You are
completely right. So yeah. Well,one of the reasons I think I was
hired at IANA was that theywere, they had not much of a
lobbying presence. It was justsomething that they were really
focused internally on buildingup the organization and

(21:43):
representing the industry, sortof industry to industry, not so
much, industry to Washington. Sobecause my background is
lobbying in Washington, thinkthere's commitment from the
board, and then hence me is todevelop an advocacy arm, and so
we are hiring a Vice Presidentof Government Affairs, and we're

(22:06):
going to develop a department.
And why do we do this? Well,there are a couple of reasons.
One is it's another, it'sanother outlet to talk about
intermodal and I've noticedsince I've been I've been up on
the hill a few times not thereare people who are kind of
transportation nerds, and I'mone of them, so I'm not being
pejorative who, who know whatintermodal is, but the vast

(22:26):
majority of, like the staff,don't have any clue or members,
and so what we've got to changethat, because there are programs
out there, for example, grantprograms where there's funding
for big intermodal facilities?
Well, you can have a publicprivate partnership where, if an
intermodal facility needs to getbuilt, then you can have some

(22:48):
government funding and someprivate funding and really make
it, you know, actually work. Andso, and also, our voice needs to
be part of it. We'rerepresenting a segment of the
industry. And so if we're sayingwe need permitting reform in
order to get those intermodalfacilities built, or if we need
to have independent contractorsstill be part of the system,

(23:09):
because 80% of the DRE driversare independent contractors, and
so we cannot have an industrywrecked. So we've got to have
our voice out there.

That's super interesting, because I've
always, you know, you hear aboutlobbying and a grand scheme of
things, it's like, you know, avery negative thing that, you
know, special interests involvedin, you know, they're coming
down on the little guy andthings like that. But from what
I understand, especially on whatwhat you are prioritizing, is
really establishing a frameworkto open up a conversation with

(23:42):
the people who are making andpassing

laws. Yeah. I mean, I'm sort of a holy roller on
this issue, which, Look, I getthat there are, there is a
negative perception of lobbying,because you feel like, well, if
those you know, these fat catscan do it, they're shutting out
the little guy. But really,it's, as an American, it's your
first amendment, right? Andlet's think about the 535
members of Congress. Do youthink they possibly could

(24:05):
understand intermodal they,they've got all these people in
their ears, right, talkingabout, God knows what, whether
it's China, whether it's youknow the name of the commander.
So, no, I'm kidding. Whateverthe issue is, they can't
possibly know everything, right?
And so if who's going to tellthem, is it going to be us who

(24:25):
actually know what we're talkingabout, who's going to tell them,
or is it going to be somebodyelse who's going to be like,
here's why intermittal stinks,right? And so we have to be up
there. And it's not that, it'slike we're not doing anything
other than educating. Honestly,we just don't have, we don't
have a capacity to do anythingelse. We just have to educate
and get to know these folk andsay, here's what you may or may

(24:47):
not know, and here are someconstituencies in your district
who you can talk to to find outmore. Oh,

interesting.
Okay, so the the process ofsetting that. Up is, you know,
hiring somebody in charge ofGovernment Affairs, and then
they are, what is their nextstep after they're hired? Is it,
you know, making relationships?
Is it kind of shaking hands andmaking introductions like, what
does, I guess that day to dayjob look like? Yeah,

that person's gonna have a lot of me breathing down
their neck and them justconstantly having to do stuff.
So, yeah, they will job, thejob. So, yes, I don't want to
get too kind of granular,really, but like, so they're
committees of jurisdiction,right? That deal with

(25:35):
transportation issues. And sothose members are supposed to be
kind of the specialists for theCongress. So there's on the
House side, there's aTransportation and
Infrastructure Committee. Well,the first thing you want to do
is get to know all those people,because those are the people who
are dealing next year, they'llbe dealing with a Surface
Transportation reauthorizationbill. And so what is in there

(25:56):
that either hurts us or couldhelp us? And so you got to get
to know all of those folk. Andthe next people you need to get
to know on the Senate side,Senate Commerce Committee, you
got to get know all those folk,but you also need to get to know
all the members, because, youknow, we are a diffuse group,
right? We represent all thesedifferent modes and the ports
and everybody, but we can allalign on the supply chain, and

(26:17):
what's critical about that, andso get to know all those folks
too. So yeah, this person'sgoing to have a

lot of, a lot of stuff to do, a lot of people,
it sounds

I mean, this is the thing about lobbying, like most
things, it's like sales it'slike a sales job. And so how
does sales succeed? Well, it's,it's targeted relationships,
right?

That's super interesting, I guess. You know,
going back to my earlier commentof what you kind of hear about,
you know, lobbying is almostlike the boogeyman, but it's
from what you explained. It'sjust really relationship
building and then being able toeducate them appropriately on
the realities of the industry.
So I wonder, you know, if youare, you know, maybe hiring

(27:03):
somebody that is in that role,what are some of those key
pressing issues that's affectingintermodal right now? I believe
AB five, California's AB fivebill is one of the bigger ones,
because it impacts owneroperators. And then, as you
explained, you know, owneroperators are what 90% of
drayage dryers, 80%

Yeah, yeah. Wow, yeah. So, so, yeah. So, the the
big issues are, I mentioned theSurface Transportation
reauthorization bill. That's anext year deal, but it's a big
one. It's a really big dealbecause that's where it you
know, it doesn't happen, butevery five to six years, and
that's where all these grantprograms are authorized and
eligibility for the grantprograms, also, they'll have

(27:45):
things about permitting reformand project delivery reform,
things like that, which canreally expedite, you know, can
expedite projects being built.
And they'll have some otherthings that could affect us, and
so we've got to be part of thatdiscussion. So yes, then
independent contractor, it'sit's on the federal level. There
has not been activity other thanthere's some legislation that

(28:07):
would attempt to preserve it,which we're supportive of. But
as you know, California has hadAB five now New Jersey is
looking at regulations thatessentially would effectively
end the independent contractorfrom existing and so, yeah, that
that's another thing thatthey're going to have to work on
as well. And then they're alwaysthese sort of nits and nats

(28:30):
cargo theft. There's legislationthat would perhaps not solve the
problem, but would address theproblem. So we're supportive of
that. And then, you know, theseother things that could happen,
rail regulation, for example,or, you know, anything affecting
the Dray driver. All of thatstuff is something we need to to
be on top of. What

is their argument against, sort of the
independent contractor, youknow, California and possibly
New Jersey.

Well, I don't want to be cynical about it. So I the
cynical person, not me, wouldsay that it is an attempt to to
address a declining unionpopulation. But I that's a
cynical person. What I would sayis that it is their contention

(29:20):
that some people should beconsidered an employee for all
intents and purposes they are.
And so the the employer isgetting out of paying health
care and all the all the stuff,tax, and so, right, exactly. And
so what you know, what ourcontention is, is these folks

(29:40):
are an independent contractorfor a reason, because they want
to be in business forthemselves. It's not like
they're being duped into it.
There's not some sort of powerstruggle or leverage that is
unfair. It is someone who wantsto be a driver for himself. He
or she has bought a truck,bought two trucks. X bought
three trucks, what have you, andhas their own business. They are

(30:04):
not interested in working forsomebody else. Perhaps they've
already worked for somebody elseand they didn't like it. So, so
it's kind of one of those thingswhere it's like, I don't think
you should think you know betterthan the person who's actually
in that position.

Yeah, very true. Because I wouldn't want
somebody as a you know, I'm anindependent contractor for
several companies, and I choosethat path because that's the
path I want to and I would wantsomebody else coming in and
saying, No, you're not allowedto do that anymore. That just
seems absolutely ridiculous,like what business of it is
yours? And it just sounds likemaybe they're trying to make it

(30:40):
their

business. That's right, and it's interesting. In
New Jersey, it's become quite acontentious issue. And you know,
what's fascinating is you don'teven realize, like you just
said, you're an independentcontractor. It's fascinating how
many other entities, likehairstylists and hair braiders
and, you know, IT professionalsand all these, all these kinds

(31:01):
of industries. So you don't likefreelance writers, you don't
even think about as independentcontractors who are lobbying
against this regulation, becausethey think, what are you doing?
This is my livelihood thatyou're you're affecting,

right? And it's like, I, you know, as an
independent contractor, I paytaxes, and probably more taxes
than you know the employer wouldpay, but maybe they get it a
little bit more automatically,if you're a w2 employee, versus
trying to rely on, I guess, theindependent contractor to know
what to pay. I'm just thinkingoutside the box here, but yeah,
yeah, I still pay taxes, and Iprobably pay too much, so

yeah, right, don't we all conversation we'll have
it in April. We'll have it inApril.

So we'll, we'll have all of those conversations,
along with, you know, the KimKardashians of the world. And
you know, we'll, we'll, we'lltable those for a future
discussion, truck drivershortage, Kim Kardashian
independent contractors. Okay,so let's talk about what maybe
your day to day looks like atIANA, you mentioned, you know,

(32:08):
raising the profile, gettingmore, you know, hiring a person
in charge of government affairs.
Are there any other aspects thatyou are focused on for that
association? Well,

absolutely. So a couple of things. I was just in
the Dallas Fort Worth area overthe last few days meeting with
members, critical members forus, not just members, but also
universities. We have ascholarship program with
different universities where weprovide the university some
funds for them to give tostudents interested in supply
chain education. So that's thenext generation of folk.

(32:39):
Obviously, we all get concernedabout, are there going to be
enough people to replace thoseretiring? And so that's one way
to address it, right, to makesure that they're at school
studying all about that, andthat we can be supportive of
that. And so why don't why am Imaking a big deal about this?
Because my predecessor was, shewas in charge for 27 years. I
mean, that's amazing, right? Andshe did an enormously she was

(33:03):
really strong and great and didall the right things. But, you
know, after 27 years, do youfeel like you need to go out and
meet members? Probably not,right? You've met them so,

but probably several times, probably

several times, 1000 times over, so, but they haven't
met me, and so part of that isI'm going out there and meeting
with these members, and ahearing from them as to why they
want to be a part of IANA, butalso what they see for
intermodal. And then b Tell themwhat my vision is for the
association, and hopefully theyfind it compelling, and then

(33:37):
they want to have continuedengagement. I think that is such
an important piece of being anassociation head is you can't
just sit in your room and andtalk to yourself and think you
know what you're doing. And evenif you talk on the telephone,
telephone, I sound like I'm 1000years old. Jesus. I mean, even
if you're talking on the phoneor zooming, it's still it's not.

(34:00):
It does not replace getting outthere and meeting people where
they are. Oh, that, yeah, that'sright, because

I was listening to your interview with with Joe
Lynch, logistics. Of logistics,great podcast for for anybody
who's out there, if you haven'theard about it, you probably,
you probably have. For mostpeople listening to this great
connector, isn't it? Yes. Andfor in that conversation, I
think you mentioned that youwere going on a listening tour
on all is that, you know, amajor hub that you mentioned is

(34:28):
that kind of the the MO rightnow is going on that listening
tour to all the major hubs ofIANA,

yeah, so, so I've gone to Chicago, I went to DFW.
I've been down to Jacksonville,been to Charlotte, North
Carolina. There's much more forme to do, obviously, but that's
sort of a start, and I think I'mprobably leaving out places,
which is, I'm so sorry for thosefolks. I'm leaving out because I
can't remember. You know, I'mgetting older, but, but yeah, I

(34:55):
mean, they, they, they want tobe reassured that they their
investment in i. Is, is, ispaying off, right and and
rightly so, if they're ifthey've been used to a certain
kind of way that the theassociation has operated over
the years, and now they have anew person coming in, I'm doing
the organization a disservice ifI don't go out there and meet
with them.

So what? What are maybe some of those bigger
concerns that they have? Andthen maybe, what are you going
to implement because of thoseconversations?

Yeah, I mean, so, so first and foremost, it's, how
are we going to address marketshare, right? We got a business,
yeah. I mean, and that's, andbecause of the industry
succeeds, IANA succeeds. If IANAsucceeds, we're hoping that the
industry is is successful. So Ithink that's kind of first and

(35:45):
foremost is, how do you addressmarket share? How? What can you
do to promote it? And then, youknow, obviously there any
association has its associationissues, which is, how do you
assure that there are new voicesbeing represented on industry
committees, for example? Andfair enough, you don't
necessarily want to have thesame people saying the same
things for years and years andyears. How do you make it so

(36:07):
that there are talented peoplewho want to be part of the kind
of education system, thecommittee system, the board how
do how do we get that nextgeneration in? And so I think
all of it is like they're verysmart folk who have good ideas.
And so it's my bet, to mybenefit, that I have these

(36:27):
people in my ear telling me, youknow, what they think we should
do, and I'm happy to implementin a way that I think makes

sense. Now I'm on the board of the TMSA, and so
I hear a lot of what you'resaying, because Jennifer karpus
remain does a fantastic jobleading the association and
getting those new voices and allthe different committees
involved. So I'm curious, whatdoes, I guess maybe the
landscape of IANA look like? Isit, you know, similar structure?
Is it maybe like a cscmp wherethere's, you know, different,

(36:59):
you know, hubs, as youmentioned, what does a what does
the behind the scenes kind oflook like, the committee versus
board kind of structure? Sure.
So we have a board with boardcommittees, and so those are
just board members on it, forexample, Policy Committee.
There's

a nominations committee to make sure we get
that sort of pipeline of talent,that kind of thing. We have a
committee who is in charge oflooking at the hour, and this is
really going to get weedy, butwe we facilitate the uniform
intermodal interchangeagreement, which is essentially
the rules of the road of howequipment is interchange. And so

(37:38):
we have a committee that kind ofoversees that. And then we have
three non board committees. Wehave maintenance or repair So,
kind of like road ability, ifyou think about what that could
mean, we have safety andsecurity. And so they're looking
at, well, cargo theft is part ofas part of that, but, but, you
know, writ large, safety andsecurity. And then finally,
operations. What are some waysto to improve operations. And so

(38:02):
those folks are your kind offrontline workers who are
dealing with those issues everyday and have really thoughtful
approaches to it. And we'retrying to make sure that that
you want it to be vigorous. Youdon't want them to just have a
committee where people and ideasgo to die like that's not
helping anybody. And so, youknow, sometimes you got to
reinvigorate them.

And so outside of the committees and the board,
what just sort of the themembership look like? Is it? Oh,
I mean, obviously it's anassociation for North America.
So is it Canada? Is it Mexico,or is it primarily US based? And
then maybe, how many members? Ithink I read it was like, about
1000 members of IANA. That'sright over. Yes, about 1000

vast majority, are us, but we have Canadian and
Mexican members as well, andwe're in five divisions, as I
mentioned. So I'm going to gothrough them, because I need to
challenge myself. We haverailroads, we have Marines, so
ocean carriers in in ports. Wehave motor carriers. We have
intermodal folk, you know that,I'm sorry, intermittal folk,

(39:06):
IMCs, and three PLS, theintermodal marketing companies.
And three pls. And then we haveyour vendors and suppliers. So
then that could include yourchassis providers, as well as
those who make, you know, thosewho make stuff like the chassis,
the containers, etc. Awesome.
That gives me a fuller pictureof because I, Anna, was always
just one of those, because they,they used to, I don't, I don't

(39:27):
know if they still do. They,they used to host a lot of
conferences in Jacksonville, andI'm assuming it's because of,
you know, the CSX, you know,connection. But it always was
one of those things, like thewhen I worked at a in house, it
was the small department in theback that no one really talked
to. But yeah, after talking toyou, I'm like, why weren't they
more part of the conversation?
Because it feels like there's alot of synergy there in a

(39:48):
variety of different ways. Somaybe that's hopefully, you
know, greater awareness aroundthat will will obviously, you
know, now that you're you'releading the show. Leadership,
and not to discredit, you know,anything that's been done in the
past, but, you know, I do thinkthat there is a chance to shake
things up a little bit when youget some new leadership
involved, and part of that isalso running an event, and what

(40:10):
the focus of those events are.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe upcoming IANA Expo. Do you
have? You know, one event a yearis several a year, give us sort
of the overview of the eventside of things. Sure. So thank
you for asking, of course,because it's in three weeks our
intermodal Expo. It's in LongBeach, California, September 15

(40:33):
through the 17th. And so somepeople call this like speed
dating for intermodal, becauseit's just everyone who is in
intermodal and they're gettingtogether with their customers,
or they're getting together withtheir vendors, and they're all
talking to each other about afew things, like, obviously,
service contracts, nextgeneration tech, what, you know,
what kind of suppliers theyshould be using, and then the

(40:55):
issues associated with, whetherit's AI, cargo, theft, you know,
future of recruitment, all ofthat kind of stuff. So it's
education, and it's anopportunity to network, and it's
a sort of a lot of meetingspace, giving that opportunity
for people to all get together.
And so that is something thatthey've been doing for years and
years and years. And, you know,the organization is 34 years
old, so I'm just assuming it's a34 year adventure. The other

(41:16):
meeting we have is in May, andthat's our committee meeting.
It's kind of called our businessmeeting, where it's more in the
weeds of those folks as alright,what are we going to do this
year in this committee? Andthen, you know, the various
issues associated with it. Wehad just started our cargo theft
task force at this last Maymeeting, and so that was a big
focus for our safety andsecurity folk. But each year

(41:36):
there's a different, you know,focus. I think one of the things
was transporting lithium ionbatteries. I can't even, I can't
even tell you everything Iheard, because it was like, it
was a lot to take in. But that'ssomething that folks, for
example, I mean, I wouldn't havenever thought about, but for me,
I do, yeah, right, from anintermodal perspective, making
sure there's security around theoperation of transporting these

(41:57):
lithium ion batteries. I mean,it's, it's, it was, anyway, it's
like practical stuff of what,how you make your business work.
And so then the this expo iskind of like the universe of
intermodal issues. Oh, so that,okay, so that's interesting,
because from I guess, a contentperspective, it sounds like, you
know, freight fraud or cargotheft, that's going to be a

(42:19):
major focus. How does AI, youknow, kind of play a role in an
Intermodal Freight, I'massuming, with, you know, maybe
some of the other industriesthat it's, you know, visibility,
I'm sure, or, you know, dataaggregation, that kind of thing.
Yeah, I think that's right. And,you know, I'm just dangerous
enough, smart enough to bedangerous, or whatever the

(42:40):
expression is about the robotsthat are all taking over. But I
would say, Yeah, AI, it's morefocused on the automation of
these, these sort of dataanalytics, really, from our
perspective, and then some ofthe visibility stuff too, and
how you can integrate thevisibility tools without
compromising security. I thinkthat's a great tension, right?
Because we all want to make surewe understand where everything

(43:02):
is, but we also want to makesure we protect that data. And
so how do we do that throughautomation, and what does that
look like? And so I'm fascinatedto learn, because I need to
learn more about it too. I knowat Tia with technovations in
particular, AI was like,everybody was just talking about
AI. And so I think now there'snow we're talking about it. I'm
not to say that they startedtalking about it when I got on

(43:24):
board. I'm not trying to be belike that, but, but, you know, I
do think that there's the folkson the three PL side might have
been earlier adopters than thefolks on this side, and so it's
just interesting to see whatthat looks like.

Yeah, because there's definitely a lot of room
for that, that kind ofoptimization on the the freight
brokers side of things,especially with, you know, some
of those, you know, digitalfreight brokers that tried to
make that a thing, and they kindof had to, you know, change
some, some their marketing andtheir approach a little bit
differently when it wasn't asautomated as I think they hoped

(43:59):
that it would be by taking Thebroker out of it, and it feels
like maybe intermodal on thatside of things was kind of a
wait and see approach, and nowmaybe they have a little bit of
an more educated guess on wheresome of those different
technologies could make animpact or a difference into that
sector. Is that a correctassumption?

Or, I think that's, yeah, I think that's fair. I
mean, who was it? Who said this?
It was probably Ryan Schreiber,who's the smartest person we all
know, right? He said somethinglike, when we talk about AI,
we're just talking aboutautomation, really is what we're
talking about. And so where canwe automate in a way that makes
sense? And I'm with you, theexperiment with digital freight
brokerage was, I don't think, asuccessful one. I think there

(44:38):
are elements though, that makeit have make sense. The
relationship is too critical,though, to just obviate
completely. You cannot get ridof it, and nor should you,
because, as we know, you have totrust the people you're working
with. And here in intermodal youcan't get rid of the
relationship. I mean, it's sortof part and parcel of really
what the service offering is,and so how do they use it? I

(44:58):
think it's true. Really. How canwe optimize the data that we
collect? Because they all docollect data. It's just a
question of, are they going tomake it visible, and who are
they going to make it visible

to? Yeah, absolutely. All right, last few
questions here, but before Imove on to those, because
they're kind of like more on thefun side of things. Oh, I love
fun. We're going to get to a fewfun questions. But I did want to
you know, one last chance. Isthere anything that is important
on the intermodal IANA side ofthings that we didn't already
talk about?

No, I don't think so. I mean, oh, actually no. One
thing, I amend my statement. Sowe're talking about data and
gathering it. So IANA does havea data collection we do collect
data from our from ourmembership, and we have a
gentleman, Larry minor, I don'tknow if you know Larry. He's the
intermodal list, who kind ofsynthesizes it, analyze it, gets

(45:49):
a couple other sources, and putsout a portrait of, okay, where
are we? Where are we lookinglike? What do we like? For
example, you know, at thebeginning of the year, there was
a lot of freight kind offorwarded before the tariffs. So
intermodal was going great.
International intermittal wasgoing great. That's obviously
cooled off a little bit,although there was more because
of the suspension of the Chinesetariffs. So he's the guy who

(46:09):
puts that all together. So we,we feel like one of the really
good ways to continue to haveIANA be part of the source of
truth as a lot relies onintermittal data. We hired a
director of economics. Larry isgoing to retire at the end of
the year. We want to make surethat we have someone who has
some continuity with him to dowhat he does, but also to

(46:31):
amplify it. Is there more datathat we can collect that would
be helpful in what is it? Routedetermination, whether it's, you
know, you know, site selection,whether it's whatever it is,
there probably is more data outthere that we could be
actionable, that could reallyassist our membership. And so
that is something that we'reexcited about, too, because

(46:52):
everybody knows they love data,and they they like people who
can speak authoritatively aboutthat data. And so we want to
make sure we have someone likethat. Yeah,

no, I remember being at a conference recently,
and someone had mentioned, and,God, I'm blanking on his name,
but he's a host over atfreightwaves, and he mentioned
about how he dives into IANAdata. And I was like, IANA, so
in association, like, what kindof data are you? Like, I almost
I was like, Are you Yeah, Iasked it in a, like, a dumb way,
and he was like, no. He's like,they have a ton of useful data.

(47:26):
And I felt like an idiot. And sonow, now to hear that this is,
like, actually, you know, asmart thing, I was like, Oh,
wow, that's okay. That makes aton of sense. So it's um,
Michael Bradford, so yeah,apologies to Michael Bradford
for for giving them a dumb lookon IANA data. But now, no,

as long as you, as long as you didn't, like, hang
out your tongue or anything, Ithink it's fine, like, not
everybody knows anything. Imean, it's and again, why don't
they know about it? So we gotta,we gotta do, we gotta do a
better job.

And so that's it. You know that that sounds
like an important initiativethat you're already kind of
taking on and so that I thinkthat I would be, I don't know,
do you guys release any kind ofregular reports, or is that kind
of maybe only for members?

Yeah, we do have the sort of, the members get the
full kind of slate ofinformation, and the non members
get some partial, if that makessense, makes sense, yeah. So we
release that monthly, and itjust gives people a snapshot as
to what you know, how, how isthe industry faring? Awesome?

Yeah, that.
That's something that I'lldefinitely have to get signed up
for from like, an alertperspective. So then that way I
can keep tabs on the IANA datatoo. So right, bite my tongue. I

know, guys, you already have so many flying at
you. I don't know why you don'tknow why you don't have

another just add one more thing to the list,
right? Could be fine. My panicattacks will subside eventually.
Alright? So so I do have acouple important last questions
here for what how do you feellike the commanders are going to
do this season.

I gotta tell you, hope actually came into our
hearts last year, thosecommander fans who've had 30
years of misery, which is not tocompare to the Detroit Lions and
the Cleveland Browns. I getJaguars too. Oh, the Jaguars.
Yes, indeed, we're all losers,but we used to be winners
Blythe, and we have been losersfor 30 years, and we had a bad

(49:24):
owner, and now we have a goodowner, and we have a great
quarterback, and we have a greatcoach. This is exciting. So I
don't, I mean, I cannot predictthe future, but I'm excited
about that. Obviously, we justpaid Terry McLaurin and he, I
guess he got, deserves everypenny. We're happy for him.
We've got debo Samuels. Now I'mreally excited about diva, like,

(49:44):
there's, we have a lot of greatweapons, and so I'm hopeful it's
a it's a big year. I knowcowboys. My husband's a Cowboys
fan, so I can just pander,pander to they're terrible. So
that should help. I mean, theEagles are really I'm just
talking about our division. TheEagles are really strong. The
Giants, not so. Much. So I thinkwe'll be up and I think we'll be
up there. That's my view.

Are you?
Because I know when the Jaguarshave, you know they they have
very brief peaks, and they dovery, very deep, deep lows,
yeah, whenever we have our peakthat next season or that season
and then the following seasonbefore reality slaps us in the
face again, I'm obnoxious, andnobody can stand me, and it's
like I'm on top of the worldbecause we have a 500 record for

(50:24):
you know, the third time in mylife. Are you on the maybe on
the obnoxious side of things,too?

I'm never obnoxious. I'm a delight at all
times I don't know what you'retalking about. I know I don't
consider myself obnoxious. Let'sask others. Let's see what they
have to say. But here's thething, we were suffering for a
really long time. We deserve tobe happy. I can deserve it.

(50:56):
No, I tell people all the time,if the jabbers ever win a Super
Bowl, I'll burn my own house tothe ground. That's how excited I
will be if that happens. I don'tthink you're obnoxious either. I
don't, I don't care what theysay, just keep this obnoxious
flag right next to the desk atall times, just in case, you
know, somebody like a Chrisjolly starts talking crap that I
can, you know, wave the flag inhis face. He doesn't know. He

(51:18):
doesn't know. Okay? And we alsoone last question, what's one
freight logistics book that theaudience should check out
because we connected on the box?
I know this book. What otherbooks maybe are logistics kind
of or supply chain coded thatyou think folks should read? Can
I just say the box I'm I'mdrawing a blank. I know I'm

(51:39):
trying to think of like otherlogistics focused books, and
there's endurance so thatfamous, you know, Ernest
Shackleton, but I don't knowthat that's logistics specific.
That's more like leadership. Ithink, you know, logistics
undertone to it. And I think thebox is probably the most famous,
that it's like, most famous.

(52:00):
Yeah, that and what were yougoing to say? Well, Ryan
Peterson a flex board. He hadthat one, like children's book,
I think it's called littledigger. That it was after the
little, I guess, digger that washelping the ever given get out
of the Suez Canal. Oh, my God,that's hilarious. So he wrote a
book about that one. And I knowthere's some other books in the

(52:22):
works on, you know, supplychain. I think seen a couple
tweets from Craig fuller thathe's, he's writing a book as
well. So maybe we'll have somenew entries into the mix. Yeah,
next time, Blythe, let's talkbooks, because I got quite an
array. We've got books. KimKardashian, the truck driver
shortage, if, if, if it exists,and then policy making. So,

(52:46):
yeah, yeah, there's a lot to dogood. It's exhausting in Kim
Kardashian too. I forgot aboutthat one. Okay? And then lastly,
on a more serious note, becausewhen we ask in our pre show
questionnaire, what are threestrong opinions or philosophies
that you believe you mentionedthat happiness is achieved
through helping others. Humilitymeans no one person has all the

(53:08):
answers. And lastly,transparency creates trust. So
how do you hope to bring thesephilosophies to the intermodal
side of things? Yeah, so I thinkit starts first with building
your team and having them buyinto that. And I think that
we're we are achieving that. Mywhen I started at Tia, I told

(53:29):
those folks, I said, I believein humility, transparency and
integrity. I think that kind ofpaves the way for how you run an
operation. And so I feel thatway because you you cannot do
any of these things that we'retalking about if people don't
trust you, and if they don'thave an awareness of what you're

(53:49):
doing, how can they buy into it?
And so for me, that, and thelast thing, it's with humility,
is it's, this is not me talkingthis is what we're hearing from
other folk. I'm just deployinghow we, you know, the vision of
how we do it, and I think that'simportant to have that success
starts with has many fathers, asthey say, and failure is an
orphan in the storm. So I wantto make sure we have buy in,

(54:12):
that they understand what we'redoing, and they can believe and
trust in us and doing it wellsaid. That's a mic drop moment.
So Anne, where? Where Can folksfollow you? Follow more of your
work. Become an IANA member.
Learn more about the the expoand future events, all that good
stuff.
Yes, so go to intermodal.orgAlso there's intermodal expo.com

(54:36):
which is, goes directly to theExpo, and then I'm all over
LinkedIn like me, repost me,

get the PR out there about intermodal. We need
greater awareness around theefficiency model.

And that's right, that's right. And Diana's on
LinkedIn too. It's not just me.
It's not just me. Humility,humility,

humility. We.
Put all of those things in theshow notes for folks, and then
this was great conversation. Ihad a whole list of questions to
ask that I did not. I mean,there we got to them, we covered
them, but I didn't. I didn'thave to read off my notes once
so, or maybe for the last part,but you were, you were great to
have a conversation with. Well,we'll have you back on again in

(55:20):
the future. And thank you somuch for joining us. Thank you
five.

Enjoy your trip to Japan. Oh, thank you. Thank you
so much.

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of
everything is logistics, wherewe talk all things supply chain
for the thinkers in freight, ifyou liked this episode, there's
plenty more where that camefrom. Be sure to follow or
subscribe on your favoritepodcast app so you never miss a
conversation. The show is alsoavailable in video format over
on YouTube, just by searchingeverything is logistics, and if

(55:55):
you're working in freightlogistics or supply chain
marketing, check out my company,digital dispatch. We help you
build smarter websites andmarketing systems that actually
drive results, not just vanitymetrics. Additionally, if you're
trying to find the right freighttech tools or partners without
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where we're building the largestdatabase of logistics services

(56:17):
and solutions. All the links youneed are in the show notes. I'll
catch you in the next Episode ingo Jags, you

Unknown (57:02):
you

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