September 16, 2025 • 54 mins
A candid business podcast for growth-minded leaders and entrepreneurs. Hosted by Josh Zolin.
The truth about leadership, business, and becoming who you’re meant to be.
Episode 3 with Dr. Gay Hendricks (The Big Leap):
We unpack the Upper Limit Problem and how to spot it in real time, then move into practical tools for living in your Zone of Genius. We cover the fears that trigger self-sabotage, the two questions that reveal your genius, excellence vs genius, how to handle worry thoughts, and why wonder is a leadership superpower.
What you’ll learn
• Upper Limit Problem, in plain English • Four common fears underneath self-sabotage • Two questions to find your Zone of Genius • Zone of Excellence vs Zone of Genius • How to work with worry thoughts and control • Simple ways to befriend fear
Guest: Dr. Gay Hendricks - author of 40+ books including The Big Leap; co-founder, The Hendricks Institute
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The upper limit problem is the human
tendency to sabotage ourselves when
things start going better. Make friends
with your fear. The two questions I
always ask people to help people figure
out what their real genius is is number
one, what do you most love to do? The
secret of happiness is knowing that
(00:20):
there are some things you can control
and some things you cannot control. The
zone of excellence is you're doing stuff
you're good at. You get paid well for
it. You get a lot of out of girls and
out of boys, but it's not ultimately
satisfying. But the problem is,
[Music]
(00:45):
you know, this this book had an impact
on me, you know, particularly when you
talked about uh some of the stuff we're
going to get into today, like the upper
limit problem and, you know, how that
kind of translates to to self-sabotage
and and ultimately keeps you stuck where
you are. And I have so many listeners,
so many viewers out there that are
trying to make, you know, big moves in
(01:05):
their life to just to just break free
from from their current confines, uh, or
where they are in life and they want to
do big things. And so that's why I'm
really excited about the, uh, the
conversation we're about to have. Uh, so
before anything else, I just want to say
thanks for coming on the show, Gay.
My pleasure, Josh.
So, if I were to ask you, you know, what
(01:27):
you want, excuse me, what you would want
the audience to take away by the end of
this conversation, uh, what would that
be?
Well, I can think of two things right
away. One is I'd like everybody to be
able to spot when they're operating out
of a limiting belief. I'd like people to
(01:48):
know when they're limited so they can
then make a shift to unlimit themselves.
And so I want everybody to have a
working knowledge of the upper limit
problem, how to spot it, how to get out
from under it. And the second thing is
after you've kind of unhooked your upper
limit problems, how to live in your
(02:10):
genius zone. To me, every human being
has a goal mind, a uranium mind, a
whatever kind of mind inside themselves
that's connected to infinite creativity.
And how we know that is look at us. I
mean, we're amazing instruments that's
(02:31):
taken millions and millions of years to
create. And so we need to take full
advantage of the excellent equipment
we've been uh given. I always say that
uh it's like we're given a lear jet at
birth, but we use it to plow potato
fields with, you know, up and down the
potato field and don't realize what its
(02:52):
true potential is. And so I've spent the
last 50 years of my life and career
writing books about and helping people
and particularly businesses work through
what their upper limit is and how to
lift that as an individual or as a team
or as a business so that they can go
into what I consider their true
(03:12):
potential which is their genius zone.
What they most love to do, what is their
biggest contribution. So, I think having
access to your genius and how how to
unhook your upper limit problem are the
two things that I'd really love people
to come away with.
That sounds great. Let's start there.
(03:33):
Hey guys, today's episode is sponsored
by Bitw Academy. That's Blue is the new
white academy. And yes, this is my
company, but I wanted to take just a
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we're so excited about it. We created
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(03:54):
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(04:15):
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(04:37):
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skills strategically. I'll put the link
in the description for the show. Check
it out if you get a chance. For somebody
(04:59):
who might not know at all what you're
talking about, haven't haven't read the
book, haven't followed your work, what
is the upper limit problem?
The upper limit problem is the human
tendency to sabotage ourselves when
things start going better.
So a classic example of that is you
(05:22):
start a new project and then something
happens and takes you off the course. So
that's a common upper limit problem is
the off the course drift. Another upper
upper limit problem is getting sick. A
lot of people plan something really big
and then the night before they come up
(05:43):
with a sore throat or get sick in some
way. Another upper limit problem is
accidents.
Something good happens in your life and
you don't know how to deal with that and
so you stub your toe or break your leg
or um get sick. So the upper limit
problem is anything you use to put the
brakes on yourself to limit yourself
(06:04):
from going all the way to your full
potential. And in the big leap I show
that all upper limit problems are rooted
in fear. And if you can understand and
unhook three or four main fears that
human beings have, you are better able
to soar into the higher stratosphere of
(06:27):
your full potential.
Amazing. Okay. So I've got a couple of
questions surrounding that. So, number
one, how do you respond when somebody
inevitably comes to you and says, "Gay,
you know, I I see this, you know, you're
talking about getting sick and stubbing
my toe as a form of self- sabotage." You
(06:48):
know, can't that just be a coincidence?
Like, is there is there really a
correlation there?
Well, yes, and and it could certainly be
a co uh coincidence. However, what you
start looking for is themes. Have this
happened before? And almost everybody
that sits down in here in this very
(07:10):
office that I'm talking to you from can
identify
if they look back and start tracing
carefully. They can see where they
wandered off the course or where they
stopped listening to themselves or where
they
got the upper limit problem for. You
see, one of the big upper limit problems
(07:33):
is the underlying feeling that you don't
deserve the good things of life. And so
if you have that
I don't deserve it mentality that's
oftentimes traced back to your family
life, you know, and sometimes to your
grandparents. Sometimes we come from a
whole family lineage of people who
(07:55):
didn't really fulfill their full
potential.
And so I um I think that one of the
first things we need to do to be a
successful human being is take on the
journey to your genius as your big quest
in life. That your big quest is to
really find out what your true genius is
(08:17):
and how to express it in the world. And
the two questions I always ask people to
help people figure out what their real
genius is is number one, what do you
most love to do? Like if you could spend
all day long doing something, whatever
it is. You know, a lot of people think
of a surface thing. Oh, I'd drink Pepsi
(08:40):
all day or I'd eat chocolate bars all
day or I'd make love all day. But those
aren't really things that will give you
the steadystate
life satisfaction
because they're not designed to do that.
They're designed to be a short-term
distraction or to take your mind off the
fact that you're hungry or something
like that. So, what we need to do is
(09:02):
make a major commitment to our whole
life journey toward genius to finding
out who am I? What do I most love? What
do I love to do in the world? And then
the second question is what do you love
to do that has a big impact positive
impact on the life of other people? What
(09:23):
do you do that makes other people's
lives better? What is your biggest
contribution you want to make to life?
Now you know one of my old mentors way
back 50 years ago was Abraham Maslo and
he said it doesn't matter if you make a
genius soup that's feeds five people or
(09:43):
write a genius novel that five million
people read. It's calling forth the best
of you. So it you don't need a large
audience for your genius. You need to
find out what you really love to do and
what your biggest contribution is. Maybe
your biggest contribution is raising
your two kids and, you know, making sure
(10:06):
they have a good home. Maybe your
biggest contribution, you don't have
kids. Maybe your biggest contribution
feels like uh supporting your extended
family. Well, all of those things are
beautiful things, but what we really
need to do is get underneath all of that
and make sure that the life we live is
in harmony with what we love to do and
(10:28):
what makes our biggest contribution.
Because all the time I work with people
who have not answered that question at
age 40 or 50 or sometimes 70 or even 80.
And so they come here to try to answer a
question that really was going on in the
background for the last 40 years.
Wow. There's a lot there. And I think
(10:48):
that's one of the biggest impacts the
book made on me, you know, when you
framed it that way, you know, because
well, we'll get to it. Um, you know, and
and you know, you alluded to it by uh
talking a little bit about the zone of
genius. We'll talk a little bit about
the zone of excellence and what the
difference is between the two. Before we
get into that, you know, you had
mentioned that there's these upper limit
(11:08):
problems are rooted in three or four
fears. Can you uh help us understand
what those three or four fears are?
Yes. The first one, the most prevalent
one I mentioned, it's the fear that I'm
fundamentally flawed in some way because
I'm the wrong height or I'm the wrong
(11:30):
skin color or I don't speak the right
language or I was born in the wrong
country. All of those kinds of things
may be factors, but they're really not
the central factor, which is that all of
us have a potential
that most of us never even think about
or wonder about or open up. We just go
(11:51):
through the, you know, the life that's
been kind of measured out for us. And
but I can tell you that doesn't bring
satisfaction. The only thing that really
brings satisfaction is participating in
the good things of life. And if you
don't feel like you deserve that,
there's always a good reason for it, you
know, because of your background and so
(12:11):
forth. But it's up to each one of us to
make that shift and say, "Wait a minute.
I see why I believe that, but I'm going
to let that belief fly out the window.
It's not made of anything. It's not
connected to anything. I'm going to take
on a new piece of software, which is I
deserve the good things of life. And not
even that you deserve them necessarily,
(12:33):
but that it's okay for you to have them.
And so that's number one. Number two,
fear is a fear that I don't deserve the
spotlight.
I must stay in the shadows. I can
support people in the spotlight, but the
light isn't for me. Well, I want
(12:54):
everybody to overcome that and become
the star of their own life. And the
reason for that is if you're always
thinking of other people as the stars
and your job is to support them, well,
that's good for a while, but I can
guarantee you that martyrs are never
happy. people that live their whole life
(13:15):
to support others and don't ever look
into their own potential uh you know it
leads to a lot of depression and
unhappiness and so I think the main
thing that we need to do first is
overcome these big fears so number one
the fear that I'm unworthy
don't deserve the good things of life
(13:36):
number two the fear that I don't deserve
the spotlight
so developing a new belief that says
I'm good with the spotlight, you know.
I'm fine with the spotlight on me. I
don't need a TV show necessarily, but I
just need to think of myself as the
author of my own life rather than it
happening to me.
(13:56):
The third fear, a lot of people get
trapped
because they don't want to move forward
because they fear that that would be
disloyal to or leave people behind
that
maybe don't want to grow with them or
(14:16):
can't for some reason. So, it's the idea
that I need to keep from growing
otherwise I'll rock the boat. And that's
a very common one that keeps people
glued into the same unhappy life and
doing things over and over and over
again that don't bring satisfaction.
A fourth fear is a lot of people are
(14:38):
really afraid
of the burden
of if they have more success for
example, if they have more money, if
they have more love. It's the idea that
there's something wrong with having more
because it will bring a burden with it.
(14:58):
And so, and you know, I've I've talked
to so many people with that particular
problem, and I'll find out where where
did you get that idea? Where did you
first come in contact with that idea?
And it always comes down to, oh, my dad
was super successful, but every day he
would come in the door and say, "Honey,
mix me my t martini. I'm they killed me
(15:22):
today at the office." You know, and
everything was greeted with this kind of
burdensome tone. And so a lot of times
people keep themselves limited because
they're afraid that more growth means
more burden. So those are the main ones
that really keep people stuck. And
(15:45):
particularly keep an eye on that first
one though because so many people even
if you only have a a percent of that it
can really slow you down. The idea that
for some reason I'm not entitled to the
good things of life. And so the moment
you make a shift there and say, "Okay,
I'm willing to experience
(16:06):
fully being loved. I'm willing to
experience full loving. I'm willing to
experience being fully the star of my
own life." So those moments of
installing a new unlimiting belief, it's
the magic that I've
lived on for 50 years because I get to
(16:26):
see people doing that all the time. And
then I get to see their lives change as
a result. I always say I have the best
inbox in town because people send me
examples of their big leaps they've
taken in their life of the business they
started or the new relationship and
everything. And so um one day I I I hope
(16:49):
to uh get about 1500 or so of those. I
want to publish a book of all those just
to uh show people what's available.
That's amazing. and and as you're
talking, you know, this stuff, I've done
a lot of work around, you know, much of
this stuff over the last couple of
years. And so with with me personally,
it really resonates. And um I'm I'm
(17:11):
wondering because I've done work around
this and I know how difficult it can be
to even identify that you have any of
these fears or that you're hitting an
upper limit problem. How can like if my
audience is listening and they're like,
"Man, I wonder which one of these things
I fall into or, you know, if if I'm
self-sabotaging in some way, how can
(17:33):
they begin to identify some of this
stuff on their own? Is that possible?"
Yes. Well, one big thing since all upper
limit problems are rooted in a fear of
some sort, make friends with your fear.
It's one of the best things a grown-up
can do is really get on intimate terms.
(17:54):
Notice when you're feeling fear and
anxiety in your body. That's a starting
place. Learn how to do a body scan of
yourself and ask yourself, "Am I feeling
angry? Am I feeling scared? Am I feeling
sad?" Those are the basic three emotions
that people trip over. They can't
communicate them very easily and they're
(18:15):
not sometimes easy to find inside
because if you've been anxious your
whole life, you don't even know you're
anxious. You just think that's the way
the world is because you don't have
anything to compare it to. So when
anxious people come in here, for
example, I don't try to make them less
anxious the first day. I simply ask them
(18:37):
to be in touch with where they're
feeling it in their body and notice that
they actually can make it bigger or
smaller by how they breathe. And so once
people learn how to breathe, for
example, in a way that makes your
anxiety go away, you kind of say, "Oh,
wow.
(18:58):
My anxiety doesn't have a grip on me. I
have anxiety, but I know how to make it
come and go. And so, what we want to do
is empower people with natural means of
clearing up their anxiety and fear or
clearing up their grief and sadness or
clearing up their old rage and anger.
(19:19):
So, there are nice, easygoing, friendly
ways to do that. And then there are
probably less friendly ways. But what we
want to do is teach people how to in a
gentle way contact who you really are,
how you really feel, and what what
you're really the essence of what your
life is all about, which I believe is
(19:41):
the quest for this thing I'm calling
genius. This magical life where you're
doing what you love to do and you're
getting a major reward out of it.
Oh, that's
You may see me smile if you're watching
this on TV. One of my cats just came in
and put her feet up on my uh uh uh knee
(20:01):
and gave me a little massage with her
feet. And she's kind of a camera ham, so
don't be surprised if she comes and
sticks her face on our camera today.
Well, there you go. We're We got room
for another guest appearance. Not Not a
problem at all. Well, that's really
insightful. Again, I want to get into
that zone of genius stuff. Uh one more
question on the upper limit problem
(20:22):
before we get into that. And I'm sure
some of this will probably gel together.
Uh but if somebody Okay, let's say
somebody identifies their fear, right?
And and they they've been able to
identify the anxiety or, you know, the
fear of being flawed or um leaving
people behind or whatever one of these
is. The next step is this upper limit
(20:43):
problem. How do they identify that? You
mentioned getting sick or stubbing your
toe, but like you know what else is
there? Because that's not obvious. Not
unless they're they're, you know,
they've read the book, they've done the
work, maybe listened to the end to the
end of this podcast, but what else is
there that that they can recognize that
says to them you're sabotaging yourself?
(21:06):
Probably the easiest thing to notice,
Josh, is
worry thoughts.
And I recommend that every human being
spend a day or two just observing your
worry thoughts. Notice when you have
them, what they're about. Particularly
(21:27):
notice how many of them are about the
past and how many of them are about the
future. Because those two things, the
past and the future have something in
common. And that thing they have in
common is both of them are unchangeable.
They're outside our control. They cannot
be managed.
(21:47):
And so what you do with that is look for
the fear that's driving all those
thoughts about nothing you can do
anything about. U because well if you go
back 2,000 years there was a what I
probably would say is mankind's
(22:08):
humankind's first self-help book. It was
uh by a philosopher named Epictitus who
lived roughly around the same time in
Greece and Rome as uh Jesus was living
over in uh Palestine in Israel. And
but Epictitus didn't write a book but
(22:28):
his students collected the things he
said and put them into a little book
called the Encaridian which sort of
means the manual about the art of
living. the manual of living and the
first line of it if you didn't read
anything else in your life would change
your life because it says that the
(22:49):
secret of happiness is knowing that
there are some things
you can control and some things you
cannot control. So it was the birthplace
of what is now the serenity prayer
that's said in AA groups and other
groups 12step groups the idea of letting
(23:10):
go of trying to control the things that
you don't have any control over anyway
and putting your attention on very
simple things like have I had a drink
today or do I
can I get out of my bed today and go
give the speech instead of h having a
(23:33):
sore throat. So those kind of moments
make a breakthrough through the upper
limits problems. Like for example, um I
work with a lot of CEOs and I have a
woman who's a CEO of a big company and
she finds it very easy to talk to 12
people in a boardroom. I mean she can be
(23:55):
just brilliant. But this new job she has
requires her to get up on a, you know, a
big
screen thing in front of 12,000 people
that work for her company around the
world and give those kind of talks too.
And she's always had a fear of that kind
of public speaking. So for example, I
(24:17):
was working with her and one thing I do
with people who has a fear of public
speaking is we work on the roots of it
of course, but I also send them to
practice groups like Toast Masters and
things like that so they can just give a
one minute speech every week and um so
just get used to doing that. But the
thing that we were working on, she's
always had illness as her upper limit
(24:40):
problem. Something good will happen,
she'll have to go to bed for three days.
something good will happen. She'll get a
big raise or a promotion. She'll um hurt
herself getting out of her car, strain
her back. So,
so we worked on that.
And so she had her big presentation, you
know, 12,000 people around the world
(25:01):
going to be watching her on television
giving the big speech of the year and uh
all of that. and she woke up that
morning with a real sore throat and a
case of laryngitis.
And so fortunately, these people all
have my cell phone number and God bless
them and they they don't hesitate to use
(25:21):
that sometimes.
But she called me very early in the
morning. I've got this sore throat, you
know. So I worked with her for a little
while on feeling the fear underneath it,
which she'd worked with a hundred times,
but here it was coming up just right in
the middle of things. And so we spent 10
or 15 minutes learning how to feel her
(25:44):
fear and get comfortable with it and be
able to walk out on the stage and say,
"Boy, you wouldn't believe how anxious
I'm feeling inside right now." you know,
to be able to break the ice with
something that everybody on earth has
felt. And as a result of that, she
walked out on that stage a couple hours
later, zero sore throat,
(26:06):
zero laryngitis.
And I'm not saying that everything can
always be cured by things like that, but
just to give you an example, uh once I
figured this stuff out 30 years ago, I
haven't had a cold or the flu in 30
years. Um because
I notice the early symptoms of it and
(26:29):
then take care of it right there. I
adjust my breathing, take a few vitamin
C's, lie down, feel it thoroughly, and
as a result of that, it doesn't get a
grip on me. So, uh, I think that each of
us has a lot more power over our
physical well-being as well as our
mental well-being than we think we do.
(26:51):
That's amazing. I really appreciate you
kind of walking us through that a little
bit. And I really appreciate the
references, too. I'm a big uh stoic
philosophy buff. So, Epictatus and and
Senica and Marcus Relius meditation. I
mean, I'm a big fan of all of that. And
and this and that's a common theme right
in the in the stoic practice from
Epictitus because he was, you know, the
(27:12):
one that really put it forth was, you
know, worry about what you can control
and and don't what you can't. I'll put
I'd like to to There was one thing that
you said about the what the what the um
past and the future have in common and
you said both are un unchangeable.
And what would you say to somebody that
(27:33):
says well the future I can change the
future by what I do now. What kind of
relevance is there to that or or what do
you mean by it's unchangeable?
Well, you can't do anything about it.
Got it? You You can only do something
about it in the present. For example, if
(27:54):
you're thinking of something in the
future and you've got anxiety in your
body, what you got to do is do something
about the anxiety.
You can't do anything about the thing
you're thinking about in the future
because it's I'm sure everybody is
aware the chances of the future turning
(28:15):
out how you have imagined it for better
or for worse is infinite decimal. You
know, it's very unlikely that tomorrow
even if you plan it down to the minute
is going to turn out uh like it. And uh
I remember when my daughter was little,
uh my wife went to um for an extended
(28:36):
period to Europe and I had to suddenly
take over as uh chief cook and uh uh
to teeth brush supervisor and a whole
bunch of things I hadn't been doing. And
boy, it was really amazing learning how
to do something brand new that I'd never
done before. it. It's exhilarating, but
(28:57):
it can also be very scary. The important
thing, though, is to take your attention
off the past and put it in what you're
feeling in your body right now. Take
your attention off the future and put it
on what's the fear you're feeling. Is it
a fear of rejection? Well, that's useful
to know. Is it a fear of u losing your
(29:20):
marbles while you're talking? Some
people get, you know, their mind goes
blank and uh that's their big fear. So,
inquire into it. Wonder about it. Wonder
is the great unused superpower that
human beings have as the opportunity to
genuinely, sincerely, openheartedly
(29:40):
wonder about some h
why is it that I'm feeling anxious right
now? or hm what is it I've been avoiding
about talking to my father or h what is
it the source of this anger I feel those
moments of wonder where you use that
(30:01):
superpower
people are amazed at the power of that
because sometimes I mean I've had people
figure out something in 10 seconds that
they has been bugging them for years
because they've never actually genuinely
sincerely wondered about it. See, the
nice thing about wonder is it's
unpredictable.
(30:22):
You can't say, "I want to wonder about
lunch and make sure I have a hamburger."
You know, you wonder is open-minded.
It's openhearted. It's uncontrollable.
And that's why I believe that wonder is
one of those superpowers that if you can
harness it and get to working for you,
(30:43):
you can turn on creativity in yourself
that you didn't know you had. Like I did
it myself, so I know it can be done. Uh
I've I've
up until 2012, I'd never written a novel
before. I'd written a couple of dozen
self-help books and some very successful
(31:04):
ones that are world famous, but I'd
always had this itch to write a novel.
And I
I had this belief that I didn't know how
to do it because my hero was Sherlock
Holmes. And I knew I wasn't in that
league, so why bother to write a
mystery? But I wanted to write a
mystery. And so I realized one day, I
don't have to write a whole mystery. I
(31:26):
need to write a paragraph that makes me
chuckle inside. Then I need to write a
second paragraph that makes me chuckle
inside. And then I need to write a whole
chapter that makes me think, "Wow, that
tells a good story." So here I am. I've
written now I've published uh
nine
(31:47):
novels and I have six more in the
pipeline. And I didn't even start
writing them until I was in my 60s. So,
don't ever let anybody tell you you're
too old or too limited or not smart
enough or whatever, you know? Just get
in there and find out what is it that
you love and how can I make that happen
(32:08):
all day long.
Yeah, I love that. That's a perfect
transition into the difference between
zone of excellence and zone of genius.
So, can we talk a little bit about that?
I mean, it sounds like what you just
described was you operating in your zone
your zone of genius, but what's what's
the difference between zone of
excellence and zone of genius? And how
(32:29):
can you recognize where you're at?
The zone of excellence sounds really
good and it is really good up until a
point. The zone of excellence is when
you're doing things you're good at and
you know you're good at them because
people give you money for doing them or
appreciate you doing or pat on the back
(32:50):
or whatever it is. Um
I I think that so many of us go for the
wrong kind of reward. You know who is
it? Somebody famous said that they spent
50 years climbing the ladder only to
realize they had it leaning against the
wrong wall. And so, uh, the zone of
(33:14):
excellence is you're doing stuff you're
good at. You get paid well for it. You
get a lot of out of girls and out of
boys, but it's not ultimately
satisfying. But the problem is it's
pretty darn addictive because in your
zone of excellence, you're other people
like it. They want you to be there. You
know, like my friend that was the
(33:35):
biggest real estate developer in u the
uh Caribbean until Hurricane Hugo
flattened his projects. I mean,
literally flattened his several of his
major projects. And
so he said I I asked him years later,
"What was the hardest part about
(33:56):
suddenly
not having what you had before?" And he
said, "You know what? The hardest part
was
listening to my kids complain about not
being able to fly first class anymore,
you know."
and
and he said that really bugged me, you
(34:17):
know, that uh I I'd never flown first
class and then I was flying first class.
So my kids got to first class, now
they're complaining because they have to
sit and coach, you know, so what has my
life been about? So if you plug all of
your good well-being into how other
people feel about you or think about you
or how they appreciate, you're bound to
(34:38):
have a collapse of that at some point
because life is not about achievement.
It's about the resolution of certain
inner things so that we can experience
the good things of life. The good things
of life, the best thing that we know so
far on our planet is the free and easy
exchange of love and harmony with one or
(34:59):
more human beings. And I feel grievously
sad about this, but I've been around the
world now more than 30 times and I can
tell you that most people in the world
are not experiencing
the free and easy flow of love in their
lives. And I want to change that. The
(35:20):
other thing I've noticed in my travels
is that very few people are really
content with what they're doing, what
their life is all about. You know, I
meet people all the time that says, "Oh
gosh, you know, like
I've gotten to be the CEO of this
Fortune50 company and yet I feel like if
(35:41):
I died tomorrow, my life would be a
failure." Well, what are they talking
about? They're talking about the
difference between the zone of
excellence and the zone of genius.
Because when you're in the zone of
excellence, there's that yearning to
express your genius, but you haven't
quite figured out how to do that yet. If
you can do that, your life becomes
(36:04):
radiant because then you're the CEO and
you're opening up all of these other
frontiers in yourself at the same time.
And I remember walking down the hall
with a CEO of a big company out in the
Midwest and I was talking to him about
(36:24):
I I wondered out loud. I said, "How long
has it been since you've just taken 10
minutes to yourself to figure out what
is my genius? Am I doing what I love to
do? and how could I learn to love it and
do what I love more? And he said, we're
walking down the hall and he said, "Oh
(36:46):
man, if I ever had 10 minutes to do
that, if I could put together 10 minutes
to do that, that would really change
everything."
I said, "Stop. Let's walk back to your
office." And we sat down in his office.
And that's what we did. I said, "Let's
close our eyes, sit quietly, breathe,
and simply ask yourself, what do I most
(37:07):
love to do here? And how could I do it
more?" Wow. He didn't even need 10
minutes of this. It was more like three
minutes. Suddenly, he was saying, "Oh my
gosh, you know, I realize there's this
whole open frontier I could be going
into." So, oh, those are such beautiful
moments and I feel so blessed because
(37:30):
I've been able to been sitting on the
front seat of many thousands of them by
now. It's a very rewarding thing to be
able to see somebody open up their zone
of genius right in front of your eyes.
I can only imagine how uh how rewarding
and how fulfilling that must be. you
know, just knowing how how much I love
to see light bulbs go off when I help
(37:52):
somebody, you know, come up with an idea
or break through something small, you
know, not even close to what the zone of
genius might be. So, my my next question
in that is I have to imagine, especially
based on some of the stuff you just
said, that
a lot of times leaders, entrepreneurs,
CEOs probably identify with their zone
(38:15):
of excellence. they they form an
identity around it. Uh so how do how can
we start to unwind that identity from
what they're good at but might no longer
be fulfilled by you. You understand what
I'm saying?
Yes.
I keep coming back to people getting
(38:37):
more sensitive with your body because
you know your body has been around for
millions of years perfecting
things like feelings and sensations
and yet you can see in modern life how
people get led away from knowing the
(38:57):
truth of what their bodies are trying to
tell them. You know, like 125 years ago,
the average American
ate less than a pound of sugar a year.
The modern American, the 225, 2025
version,
average eats more than a 100 pounds of
(39:20):
sugar a year. And that is something that
no body can keep up with, you know,
because your body has been used for
millions of years to living on nuts and
fruits and things like that
occasionally. Most of the time, it's
been eating rice and beans and things
that grow in the forest and bananas and
(39:40):
things like that. It's only been
recently that we've been able to eat a
variety of foods and here we are pouring
in 100 pounds of sugar. Whoa. So you're
being taken away from what your body can
organically let you know. So now we have
150 different pills to make your anxiety
go away. Uh but what happens when your
(40:02):
anxiety doesn't go away eventually? You
know, one of my clients that I work with
now, a very
very successful person
was taking
more than 50 oxycontton a day to support
his lifestyle. And eventually, you know,
(40:22):
your body's just not going to be able to
take that anymore. And so, he had to
learn to wean off the medications and
face his feelings and his fears and his
pain by himself. And fortunately, he's
learned how to do that now years later.
And so, he's become a master of knowing
what's going on in himself. He can tell
the difference, for example,
(40:45):
between being scared, anxious, and being
hungry. Nature has kind of thrown a
curveball to us because it's put our
hunger sensations right next to our fear
sensations. So, a lot of people eat when
they're actually scared or anxious. And
it never works, of course, because if
you just put in food on top of anxiety,
(41:07):
your body's not digesting food when it's
anxious. And so it'll sit there in the
middle of your body and just feel like a
big lump. So, we need to learn how to
really be in touch with what we're
feeling, what our aspirations are. This
thing I keep returning to about genius
is really simple. If you just break it
down into what do you really love to do
(41:30):
that like if you think about your work
that you're doing right now, what is it
about it that you most love? You know,
Josh, you've obviously found your genius
zone and are beginning, you know,
probably 10 years ago if I'd asked you,
do you imagine that you're going to be
doing a popular podcast on the subject
(41:50):
of X, Y, and Z, you would have said,
what?
Not a chance. Not a chance.
Yeah. Not a chance. And neither would I.
I mean, if you look at me now, if you
looked at me 50 years ago, you would
have seen a person with a completely
different body. I was tremendously
overweight. I wore a pair of big thick
glasses. Uh, I smoked heavily, two or
(42:12):
three packs of moral burrows a day when
I was in my early 20s. Thank goodness I
woke up when I was 24 and began to
change my life because I sure wouldn't
have been here. I don't think as long as
I've been around if I hadn't made some
major corrections in my life.
Yeah. No, I I really truly appreciate
this conversation. I want to be
(42:33):
respectful of your time. I know we got
about 10 minutes left. I got two more
questions for you. Uh so so we've been
talking about the zone of genius.
There's a word that that has been coming
up quite a bit and uh and you said you
said it a couple couple minutes ago,
most people aren't experiencing uh free
and easy love and harmony. You know, you
(42:53):
talked about the zone of genius being
doing what you love, you know, what you
love to do. So, I'm curious, especially
for the listeners of this show,
what's the connection between love and
leadership that most people miss?
Well, the beautiful leaders I've met,
(43:13):
and I've met some of the most beautiful
leaders on the planet. I had the
pleasure of consulting for a number of
years down at Dell Computer and working
with Michael and his team, and I worked
for many years with um Motorola and um a
few other big companies like that. And
one of the things
I think the great leaders come from a
(43:36):
place of love.
And leaders who aren't great, there are
things about themselves that they
haven't learned to love yet that are
keeping them from the type of greatness
that they could possibly be. And so I
I think of some of the people that I've
(43:57):
had the pleasures of walking the halls
with both in America and in Europe
and to a certain extent in Asia too, but
I haven't done as much work there as I
have in um North America and u Europe.
I think that I have met more genuinely
(44:19):
spiritual people
in the halls of con corporations than
I've met in the various monasteries and
holy places I've visited over the years.
And the reason I say that is because
if you're successful in business, you
have to have a certain resonance with
(44:42):
other people and a certain ability to
tune into
who other people are and what their
genius could be. And you can only get
there by doing that with yourself. You
can't ever do for other people what you
haven't been able to do for yourself.
And so if you have made inquiries into
(45:04):
your own genius and found out what your
biggest contribution is, then you can
see that with X-ray vision or I would
say heart assisted vision of who people
really are. And I was just um
grieving and celebrating the loss of uh
(45:25):
Bob Shapiro who was the head of Monsanto
for a number of years and uh just an
amazing executive that I had the
pleasure of working with and he passed
away a month or so ago and um I was
going through his uh memorial service
because I wasn't able to attend it was
(45:45):
out in Chicago but so many people spoke
spoke not to his brilliance of his mind
where it was insanely brilliant, but
also to the bigness of his heart and the
way he had opened up possibilities for
other people. And you know, I'm I'm an
old guy now. I'm um 80. And I um
(46:09):
and so I've been around the deathbeds of
more than one person I know. And I can
tell you just flat out that people are
not talking about how much money they've
made or how they've climbed the ladder
of life when they're on their deathbeds.
You know, I had the great
experience of being with my dear friend
(46:29):
Jim Selman, my golf buddy of 20 years
that I played hundreds of rounds of golf
with. He passed away on December 29th
and I had the opportunity to go over at
Christmas and be with him and spend
some of the last days of an hours of his
life with him. And I was so deeply moved
(46:50):
by, you know, he had spent his lifetime
helping other people and, you know, was
a great therapist and business
consultant and things like that. And how
open he was and how, you know, he said,
"This is it." you know, and
I'm, you know, I'm leaving and I want to
(47:12):
leave everything behind here, you know,
and when he was lucid, those were the
kind of things he was talking about. And
so,
you're a long way from your deathbed.
I'm hopefully a few years away from
mine, but whenever it comes, I want to
be able to say, I used myself up
completely. I gave everything. I left it
(47:33):
all on the field. I was like my old high
school coach, leave it on the field, you
know, you know, don't save it for your
girlfriend at the dance afterwards, you
know, put it on the field. Yeah.
And your girlfriend may leave you for
another man afterwards. He was a salty
old cuss. Whitey Smith was his name. But
he had a lot of wisdom to him, too. But
(47:54):
his point was commitment is where it's
at, fellas.
There's a big difference between on the
bench and on the field. And if you're on
the field, and we all are,
once we're learning to walk around in
the world, we've got to be able to give
it our all to come from a place of
loving, unconditional commitment.
(48:16):
I love that answer. I I I truly uh truly
do. I think that that provides a lot of
clarity and context and honestly
direction, I think, for a lot of people,
especially leaders out there listening.
So, that'll lead us into our our last
question, Gay, and then I'll I'll let
you go. Um, I love to ask this question.
(48:37):
I get a a variety of responses, but it
really speaks to the essence of the show
and why we do this. But I'm curious,
what is a truth that took you years to
fully understand, but changed everything
once you finally did?
Beautiful question.
(48:58):
I would say it has to do a lot with
commitment
that it took me a long time particularly
in my relationships
until I met my wife Katie when I was 34
years old. I'd had a number of different
relationships in my teens and 20s,
but I didn't realize until I shortly
(49:20):
before I met Katie that I was never
really committed to any of them. I
always had kind of one foot out the back
door, you know, that I was already in
the process of leaving before I got
there. And that was just an old life
pattern of mine that I needed to take a
look at at how much of my life I'd spent
running away from things and never
(49:41):
really letting myself really experience
them. And finally, I I started doing
that in my 30s, letting myself really
feel myself and tune into my genius and
all the things that you and I have been
talking about, Josh. Um and as I started
doing that, wow, life became so much
more effortless in a way, you know, that
(50:04):
once I decided to choose being where I
was and to choose doing what I was doing
and to realize that I was the one that
was doing it, not somebody else making
me do it. But even if it looked like
they were hiring me and paying me to do
it, I was the one that was in charge of
(50:24):
actually being committed to it or not.
And ooh, that took me so long to figure
out. But boy did it come in handy in my
relationship. Well, all my
relationships, but especially for the
past 45 years that I've been with Katie,
just every time any subject comes up, I
look at, oh, I must have been committed
(50:46):
to that. You know, because it's our
unconscious commitments that cause our
problems, not our conscious commitments.
And it's the unconscious commitments to
get punished, the unconscious commitment
to get rejected. You all of those kind
of things get in the way. But when you
start fleshing out your conscious
commitments, wow, life becomes the
(51:08):
smooth, effortless journey it was always
trying to be.
I love that. What a great place to stop
there. Gay, any final thoughts or where
can people find you or learn more?
Well, we have a couple of great
websites. We um have had hendrix.com for
30 years now. Hendry cks.com. That's
(51:30):
kind of the main place where you can
find out all the samples of our work. We
also have another one that's our
nonprofit foundation called the
Foundation for Conscious Living. And
there's a lot of
videos and free materials and things
like that. That one thing I did want to
mention.
(51:50):
I'm big on learning how to use the best
technology around for things. Like I
love these video conference technologies
because I can sit here in my beautiful
office that I've spent half my life
making beautiful and I can sit here and
give a keynote to a room full of people
in Rochester, New York, you know, and so
(52:11):
uh I love the latest and the latest
technology AI.
I've spent the summer with an AI team
developing a new AI assisted coaches
portal. And so if you go to
hendendricks.com
um you can find out all about the
coaches portal. Go in and check it out.
You can get a little trial from it. And
what it is, we took all of our training
(52:33):
materials like our proprietary 900page
training manual that we use and we put
it in our own AI. So you can get out to
the big AI through our portal, but you
can also get the stuff that you can't
get out there in regular AI land. And so
you can get all the Hendricks materials
from our uh 45 years of training and 200
(52:56):
videos and all of those kind of things.
Find out the answers to any clinical or
consulting related questions that you
might have. You know, what should I do
with my first session with my anxious
client? Or I have a couple coming in
that fights about sexuality. What do I
do? you know, so you can get answers in
(53:18):
30 seconds that it took me years to
figure out. And I think that's one of
the great advantages of the new
technologies.
Amazing. What a what a day and age that
we live in, huh? That's that's
fantastic.
Well, Gay, I I can't thank you enough
for coming on the show and and sharing
your wisdom with me and and with our
audience. And I know for a fact that
(53:39):
they're going to get a lot out of this.
They're going to just eat this up. So,
thank you so much for uh for everything
that you you've done, for the books that
you've written, and for the the
knowledge and wisdom that you shared
today.
My pleasure. Thank you for mining your
zone of genius and expressing it in the
world.
I do what I can because of you. Thank
(54:00):
you.
The upper limit problem is the human
tendency to sabotage ourselves when
things start going better. Make friends
with your fear. The two questions I
always ask people to help people figure
out what their real genius is is number
one, what do you most love to do? The
secret of happiness is knowing that
(00:20):
there are some things you can control
and some things you cannot control. The
zone of excellence is you're doing stuff
you're good at. You get paid well for
it. You get a lot of out of girls and
out of boys, but it's not ultimately
satisfying. But the problem is,
[Music]
(00:45):
you know, this this book had an impact
on me, you know, particularly when you
talked about uh some of the stuff we're
going to get into today, like the upper
limit problem and, you know, how that
kind of translates to to self-sabotage
and and ultimately keeps you stuck where
you are. And I have so many listeners,
so many viewers out there that are
trying to make, you know, big moves in
(01:05):
their life to just to just break free
from from their current confines, uh, or
where they are in life and they want to
do big things. And so that's why I'm
really excited about the, uh, the
conversation we're about to have. Uh, so
before anything else, I just want to say
thanks for coming on the show, Gay.
My pleasure, Josh.
So, if I were to ask you, you know, what
(01:27):
you want, excuse me, what you would want
the audience to take away by the end of
this conversation, uh, what would that
be?
Well, I can think of two things right
away. One is I'd like everybody to be
able to spot when they're operating out
of a limiting belief. I'd like people to
(01:48):
know when they're limited so they can
then make a shift to unlimit themselves.
And so I want everybody to have a
working knowledge of the upper limit
problem, how to spot it, how to get out
from under it. And the second thing is
after you've kind of unhooked your upper
limit problems, how to live in your
(02:10):
genius zone. To me, every human being
has a goal mind, a uranium mind, a
whatever kind of mind inside themselves
that's connected to infinite creativity.
And how we know that is look at us. I
mean, we're amazing instruments that's
(02:31):
taken millions and millions of years to
create. And so we need to take full
advantage of the excellent equipment
we've been uh given. I always say that
uh it's like we're given a lear jet at
birth, but we use it to plow potato
fields with, you know, up and down the
potato field and don't realize what its
(02:52):
true potential is. And so I've spent the
last 50 years of my life and career
writing books about and helping people
and particularly businesses work through
what their upper limit is and how to
lift that as an individual or as a team
or as a business so that they can go
into what I consider their true
(03:12):
potential which is their genius zone.
What they most love to do, what is their
biggest contribution. So, I think having
access to your genius and how how to
unhook your upper limit problem are the
two things that I'd really love people
to come away with.
That sounds great. Let's start there.
(03:33):
Hey guys, today's episode is sponsored
by Bitw Academy. That's Blue is the new
white academy. And yes, this is my
company, but I wanted to take just a
second to explain what it is and why
we're so excited about it. We created
Bit New Academy as an online self-paced
learning platform specifically for
people in the bluecollar home and
(03:54):
commercial service space. That means
that you as a CEO, entrepreneur or
business owner in the bluecollar
industries can deploy this as an
employee development tool for your team
to teach them those ever important soft
skills like communication and leadership
and conflict resolution and initiative.
(04:15):
the things that truly drive teamwork and
culture. There's also an element we
created to teach business acumen,
financial acumen, so they understand how
their actions on a day-to-day basis
impact the bottom line of your
organization. We've created some
resources around this as well. One of
which I want to give to you today for
free. It's our 90-day ROI playbook that
(04:37):
shows you how to increase the value of
every technician on your staff by up to
$30,000 or more without increasing
prices, revenue, or gaining new
customers simply by deploying these soft
skills strategically. I'll put the link
in the description for the show. Check
it out if you get a chance. For somebody
(04:59):
who might not know at all what you're
talking about, haven't haven't read the
book, haven't followed your work, what
is the upper limit problem?
The upper limit problem is the human
tendency to sabotage ourselves when
things start going better.
So a classic example of that is you
(05:22):
start a new project and then something
happens and takes you off the course. So
that's a common upper limit problem is
the off the course drift. Another upper
upper limit problem is getting sick. A
lot of people plan something really big
and then the night before they come up
(05:43):
with a sore throat or get sick in some
way. Another upper limit problem is
accidents.
Something good happens in your life and
you don't know how to deal with that and
so you stub your toe or break your leg
or um get sick. So the upper limit
problem is anything you use to put the
brakes on yourself to limit yourself
(06:04):
from going all the way to your full
potential. And in the big leap I show
that all upper limit problems are rooted
in fear. And if you can understand and
unhook three or four main fears that
human beings have, you are better able
to soar into the higher stratosphere of
(06:27):
your full potential.
Amazing. Okay. So I've got a couple of
questions surrounding that. So, number
one, how do you respond when somebody
inevitably comes to you and says, "Gay,
you know, I I see this, you know, you're
talking about getting sick and stubbing
my toe as a form of self- sabotage." You
(06:48):
know, can't that just be a coincidence?
Like, is there is there really a
correlation there?
Well, yes, and and it could certainly be
a co uh coincidence. However, what you
start looking for is themes. Have this
happened before? And almost everybody
that sits down in here in this very
(07:10):
office that I'm talking to you from can
identify
if they look back and start tracing
carefully. They can see where they
wandered off the course or where they
stopped listening to themselves or where
they
got the upper limit problem for. You
see, one of the big upper limit problems
(07:33):
is the underlying feeling that you don't
deserve the good things of life. And so
if you have that
I don't deserve it mentality that's
oftentimes traced back to your family
life, you know, and sometimes to your
grandparents. Sometimes we come from a
whole family lineage of people who
(07:55):
didn't really fulfill their full
potential.
And so I um I think that one of the
first things we need to do to be a
successful human being is take on the
journey to your genius as your big quest
in life. That your big quest is to
really find out what your true genius is
(08:17):
and how to express it in the world. And
the two questions I always ask people to
help people figure out what their real
genius is is number one, what do you
most love to do? Like if you could spend
all day long doing something, whatever
it is. You know, a lot of people think
of a surface thing. Oh, I'd drink Pepsi
(08:40):
all day or I'd eat chocolate bars all
day or I'd make love all day. But those
aren't really things that will give you
the steadystate
life satisfaction
because they're not designed to do that.
They're designed to be a short-term
distraction or to take your mind off the
fact that you're hungry or something
like that. So, what we need to do is
(09:02):
make a major commitment to our whole
life journey toward genius to finding
out who am I? What do I most love? What
do I love to do in the world? And then
the second question is what do you love
to do that has a big impact positive
impact on the life of other people? What
(09:23):
do you do that makes other people's
lives better? What is your biggest
contribution you want to make to life?
Now you know one of my old mentors way
back 50 years ago was Abraham Maslo and
he said it doesn't matter if you make a
genius soup that's feeds five people or
(09:43):
write a genius novel that five million
people read. It's calling forth the best
of you. So it you don't need a large
audience for your genius. You need to
find out what you really love to do and
what your biggest contribution is. Maybe
your biggest contribution is raising
your two kids and, you know, making sure
(10:06):
they have a good home. Maybe your
biggest contribution, you don't have
kids. Maybe your biggest contribution
feels like uh supporting your extended
family. Well, all of those things are
beautiful things, but what we really
need to do is get underneath all of that
and make sure that the life we live is
in harmony with what we love to do and
(10:28):
what makes our biggest contribution.
Because all the time I work with people
who have not answered that question at
age 40 or 50 or sometimes 70 or even 80.
And so they come here to try to answer a
question that really was going on in the
background for the last 40 years.
Wow. There's a lot there. And I think
(10:48):
that's one of the biggest impacts the
book made on me, you know, when you
framed it that way, you know, because
well, we'll get to it. Um, you know, and
and you know, you alluded to it by uh
talking a little bit about the zone of
genius. We'll talk a little bit about
the zone of excellence and what the
difference is between the two. Before we
get into that, you know, you had
mentioned that there's these upper limit
(11:08):
problems are rooted in three or four
fears. Can you uh help us understand
what those three or four fears are?
Yes. The first one, the most prevalent
one I mentioned, it's the fear that I'm
fundamentally flawed in some way because
I'm the wrong height or I'm the wrong
(11:30):
skin color or I don't speak the right
language or I was born in the wrong
country. All of those kinds of things
may be factors, but they're really not
the central factor, which is that all of
us have a potential
that most of us never even think about
or wonder about or open up. We just go
(11:51):
through the, you know, the life that's
been kind of measured out for us. And
but I can tell you that doesn't bring
satisfaction. The only thing that really
brings satisfaction is participating in
the good things of life. And if you
don't feel like you deserve that,
there's always a good reason for it, you
know, because of your background and so
(12:11):
forth. But it's up to each one of us to
make that shift and say, "Wait a minute.
I see why I believe that, but I'm going
to let that belief fly out the window.
It's not made of anything. It's not
connected to anything. I'm going to take
on a new piece of software, which is I
deserve the good things of life. And not
even that you deserve them necessarily,
(12:33):
but that it's okay for you to have them.
And so that's number one. Number two,
fear is a fear that I don't deserve the
spotlight.
I must stay in the shadows. I can
support people in the spotlight, but the
light isn't for me. Well, I want
(12:54):
everybody to overcome that and become
the star of their own life. And the
reason for that is if you're always
thinking of other people as the stars
and your job is to support them, well,
that's good for a while, but I can
guarantee you that martyrs are never
happy. people that live their whole life
(13:15):
to support others and don't ever look
into their own potential uh you know it
leads to a lot of depression and
unhappiness and so I think the main
thing that we need to do first is
overcome these big fears so number one
the fear that I'm unworthy
don't deserve the good things of life
(13:36):
number two the fear that I don't deserve
the spotlight
so developing a new belief that says
I'm good with the spotlight, you know.
I'm fine with the spotlight on me. I
don't need a TV show necessarily, but I
just need to think of myself as the
author of my own life rather than it
happening to me.
(13:56):
The third fear, a lot of people get
trapped
because they don't want to move forward
because they fear that that would be
disloyal to or leave people behind
that
maybe don't want to grow with them or
(14:16):
can't for some reason. So, it's the idea
that I need to keep from growing
otherwise I'll rock the boat. And that's
a very common one that keeps people
glued into the same unhappy life and
doing things over and over and over
again that don't bring satisfaction.
A fourth fear is a lot of people are
(14:38):
really afraid
of the burden
of if they have more success for
example, if they have more money, if
they have more love. It's the idea that
there's something wrong with having more
because it will bring a burden with it.
(14:58):
And so, and you know, I've I've talked
to so many people with that particular
problem, and I'll find out where where
did you get that idea? Where did you
first come in contact with that idea?
And it always comes down to, oh, my dad
was super successful, but every day he
would come in the door and say, "Honey,
mix me my t martini. I'm they killed me
(15:22):
today at the office." You know, and
everything was greeted with this kind of
burdensome tone. And so a lot of times
people keep themselves limited because
they're afraid that more growth means
more burden. So those are the main ones
that really keep people stuck. And
(15:45):
particularly keep an eye on that first
one though because so many people even
if you only have a a percent of that it
can really slow you down. The idea that
for some reason I'm not entitled to the
good things of life. And so the moment
you make a shift there and say, "Okay,
I'm willing to experience
(16:06):
fully being loved. I'm willing to
experience full loving. I'm willing to
experience being fully the star of my
own life." So those moments of
installing a new unlimiting belief, it's
the magic that I've
lived on for 50 years because I get to
(16:26):
see people doing that all the time. And
then I get to see their lives change as
a result. I always say I have the best
inbox in town because people send me
examples of their big leaps they've
taken in their life of the business they
started or the new relationship and
everything. And so um one day I I I hope
(16:49):
to uh get about 1500 or so of those. I
want to publish a book of all those just
to uh show people what's available.
That's amazing. and and as you're
talking, you know, this stuff, I've done
a lot of work around, you know, much of
this stuff over the last couple of
years. And so with with me personally,
it really resonates. And um I'm I'm
(17:11):
wondering because I've done work around
this and I know how difficult it can be
to even identify that you have any of
these fears or that you're hitting an
upper limit problem. How can like if my
audience is listening and they're like,
"Man, I wonder which one of these things
I fall into or, you know, if if I'm
self-sabotaging in some way, how can
(17:33):
they begin to identify some of this
stuff on their own? Is that possible?"
Yes. Well, one big thing since all upper
limit problems are rooted in a fear of
some sort, make friends with your fear.
It's one of the best things a grown-up
can do is really get on intimate terms.
(17:54):
Notice when you're feeling fear and
anxiety in your body. That's a starting
place. Learn how to do a body scan of
yourself and ask yourself, "Am I feeling
angry? Am I feeling scared? Am I feeling
sad?" Those are the basic three emotions
that people trip over. They can't
communicate them very easily and they're
(18:15):
not sometimes easy to find inside
because if you've been anxious your
whole life, you don't even know you're
anxious. You just think that's the way
the world is because you don't have
anything to compare it to. So when
anxious people come in here, for
example, I don't try to make them less
anxious the first day. I simply ask them
(18:37):
to be in touch with where they're
feeling it in their body and notice that
they actually can make it bigger or
smaller by how they breathe. And so once
people learn how to breathe, for
example, in a way that makes your
anxiety go away, you kind of say, "Oh,
wow.
(18:58):
My anxiety doesn't have a grip on me. I
have anxiety, but I know how to make it
come and go. And so, what we want to do
is empower people with natural means of
clearing up their anxiety and fear or
clearing up their grief and sadness or
clearing up their old rage and anger.
(19:19):
So, there are nice, easygoing, friendly
ways to do that. And then there are
probably less friendly ways. But what we
want to do is teach people how to in a
gentle way contact who you really are,
how you really feel, and what what
you're really the essence of what your
life is all about, which I believe is
(19:41):
the quest for this thing I'm calling
genius. This magical life where you're
doing what you love to do and you're
getting a major reward out of it.
Oh, that's
You may see me smile if you're watching
this on TV. One of my cats just came in
and put her feet up on my uh uh uh knee
(20:01):
and gave me a little massage with her
feet. And she's kind of a camera ham, so
don't be surprised if she comes and
sticks her face on our camera today.
Well, there you go. We're We got room
for another guest appearance. Not Not a
problem at all. Well, that's really
insightful. Again, I want to get into
that zone of genius stuff. Uh one more
question on the upper limit problem
(20:22):
before we get into that. And I'm sure
some of this will probably gel together.
Uh but if somebody Okay, let's say
somebody identifies their fear, right?
And and they they've been able to
identify the anxiety or, you know, the
fear of being flawed or um leaving
people behind or whatever one of these
is. The next step is this upper limit
(20:43):
problem. How do they identify that? You
mentioned getting sick or stubbing your
toe, but like you know what else is
there? Because that's not obvious. Not
unless they're they're, you know,
they've read the book, they've done the
work, maybe listened to the end to the
end of this podcast, but what else is
there that that they can recognize that
says to them you're sabotaging yourself?
(21:06):
Probably the easiest thing to notice,
Josh, is
worry thoughts.
And I recommend that every human being
spend a day or two just observing your
worry thoughts. Notice when you have
them, what they're about. Particularly
(21:27):
notice how many of them are about the
past and how many of them are about the
future. Because those two things, the
past and the future have something in
common. And that thing they have in
common is both of them are unchangeable.
They're outside our control. They cannot
be managed.
(21:47):
And so what you do with that is look for
the fear that's driving all those
thoughts about nothing you can do
anything about. U because well if you go
back 2,000 years there was a what I
probably would say is mankind's
(22:08):
humankind's first self-help book. It was
uh by a philosopher named Epictitus who
lived roughly around the same time in
Greece and Rome as uh Jesus was living
over in uh Palestine in Israel. And
but Epictitus didn't write a book but
(22:28):
his students collected the things he
said and put them into a little book
called the Encaridian which sort of
means the manual about the art of
living. the manual of living and the
first line of it if you didn't read
anything else in your life would change
your life because it says that the
(22:49):
secret of happiness is knowing that
there are some things
you can control and some things you
cannot control. So it was the birthplace
of what is now the serenity prayer
that's said in AA groups and other
groups 12step groups the idea of letting
(23:10):
go of trying to control the things that
you don't have any control over anyway
and putting your attention on very
simple things like have I had a drink
today or do I
can I get out of my bed today and go
give the speech instead of h having a
(23:33):
sore throat. So those kind of moments
make a breakthrough through the upper
limits problems. Like for example, um I
work with a lot of CEOs and I have a
woman who's a CEO of a big company and
she finds it very easy to talk to 12
people in a boardroom. I mean she can be
(23:55):
just brilliant. But this new job she has
requires her to get up on a, you know, a
big
screen thing in front of 12,000 people
that work for her company around the
world and give those kind of talks too.
And she's always had a fear of that kind
of public speaking. So for example, I
(24:17):
was working with her and one thing I do
with people who has a fear of public
speaking is we work on the roots of it
of course, but I also send them to
practice groups like Toast Masters and
things like that so they can just give a
one minute speech every week and um so
just get used to doing that. But the
thing that we were working on, she's
always had illness as her upper limit
(24:40):
problem. Something good will happen,
she'll have to go to bed for three days.
something good will happen. She'll get a
big raise or a promotion. She'll um hurt
herself getting out of her car, strain
her back. So,
so we worked on that.
And so she had her big presentation, you
know, 12,000 people around the world
(25:01):
going to be watching her on television
giving the big speech of the year and uh
all of that. and she woke up that
morning with a real sore throat and a
case of laryngitis.
And so fortunately, these people all
have my cell phone number and God bless
them and they they don't hesitate to use
(25:21):
that sometimes.
But she called me very early in the
morning. I've got this sore throat, you
know. So I worked with her for a little
while on feeling the fear underneath it,
which she'd worked with a hundred times,
but here it was coming up just right in
the middle of things. And so we spent 10
or 15 minutes learning how to feel her
(25:44):
fear and get comfortable with it and be
able to walk out on the stage and say,
"Boy, you wouldn't believe how anxious
I'm feeling inside right now." you know,
to be able to break the ice with
something that everybody on earth has
felt. And as a result of that, she
walked out on that stage a couple hours
later, zero sore throat,
(26:06):
zero laryngitis.
And I'm not saying that everything can
always be cured by things like that, but
just to give you an example, uh once I
figured this stuff out 30 years ago, I
haven't had a cold or the flu in 30
years. Um because
I notice the early symptoms of it and
(26:29):
then take care of it right there. I
adjust my breathing, take a few vitamin
C's, lie down, feel it thoroughly, and
as a result of that, it doesn't get a
grip on me. So, uh, I think that each of
us has a lot more power over our
physical well-being as well as our
mental well-being than we think we do.
(26:51):
That's amazing. I really appreciate you
kind of walking us through that a little
bit. And I really appreciate the
references, too. I'm a big uh stoic
philosophy buff. So, Epictatus and and
Senica and Marcus Relius meditation. I
mean, I'm a big fan of all of that. And
and this and that's a common theme right
in the in the stoic practice from
Epictitus because he was, you know, the
(27:12):
one that really put it forth was, you
know, worry about what you can control
and and don't what you can't. I'll put
I'd like to to There was one thing that
you said about the what the what the um
past and the future have in common and
you said both are un unchangeable.
And what would you say to somebody that
(27:33):
says well the future I can change the
future by what I do now. What kind of
relevance is there to that or or what do
you mean by it's unchangeable?
Well, you can't do anything about it.
Got it? You You can only do something
about it in the present. For example, if
(27:54):
you're thinking of something in the
future and you've got anxiety in your
body, what you got to do is do something
about the anxiety.
You can't do anything about the thing
you're thinking about in the future
because it's I'm sure everybody is
aware the chances of the future turning
(28:15):
out how you have imagined it for better
or for worse is infinite decimal. You
know, it's very unlikely that tomorrow
even if you plan it down to the minute
is going to turn out uh like it. And uh
I remember when my daughter was little,
uh my wife went to um for an extended
(28:36):
period to Europe and I had to suddenly
take over as uh chief cook and uh uh
to teeth brush supervisor and a whole
bunch of things I hadn't been doing. And
boy, it was really amazing learning how
to do something brand new that I'd never
done before. it. It's exhilarating, but
(28:57):
it can also be very scary. The important
thing, though, is to take your attention
off the past and put it in what you're
feeling in your body right now. Take
your attention off the future and put it
on what's the fear you're feeling. Is it
a fear of rejection? Well, that's useful
to know. Is it a fear of u losing your
(29:20):
marbles while you're talking? Some
people get, you know, their mind goes
blank and uh that's their big fear. So,
inquire into it. Wonder about it. Wonder
is the great unused superpower that
human beings have as the opportunity to
genuinely, sincerely, openheartedly
(29:40):
wonder about some h
why is it that I'm feeling anxious right
now? or hm what is it I've been avoiding
about talking to my father or h what is
it the source of this anger I feel those
moments of wonder where you use that
(30:01):
superpower
people are amazed at the power of that
because sometimes I mean I've had people
figure out something in 10 seconds that
they has been bugging them for years
because they've never actually genuinely
sincerely wondered about it. See, the
nice thing about wonder is it's
unpredictable.
(30:22):
You can't say, "I want to wonder about
lunch and make sure I have a hamburger."
You know, you wonder is open-minded.
It's openhearted. It's uncontrollable.
And that's why I believe that wonder is
one of those superpowers that if you can
harness it and get to working for you,
(30:43):
you can turn on creativity in yourself
that you didn't know you had. Like I did
it myself, so I know it can be done. Uh
I've I've
up until 2012, I'd never written a novel
before. I'd written a couple of dozen
self-help books and some very successful
(31:04):
ones that are world famous, but I'd
always had this itch to write a novel.
And I
I had this belief that I didn't know how
to do it because my hero was Sherlock
Holmes. And I knew I wasn't in that
league, so why bother to write a
mystery? But I wanted to write a
mystery. And so I realized one day, I
don't have to write a whole mystery. I
(31:26):
need to write a paragraph that makes me
chuckle inside. Then I need to write a
second paragraph that makes me chuckle
inside. And then I need to write a whole
chapter that makes me think, "Wow, that
tells a good story." So here I am. I've
written now I've published uh
nine
(31:47):
novels and I have six more in the
pipeline. And I didn't even start
writing them until I was in my 60s. So,
don't ever let anybody tell you you're
too old or too limited or not smart
enough or whatever, you know? Just get
in there and find out what is it that
you love and how can I make that happen
(32:08):
all day long.
Yeah, I love that. That's a perfect
transition into the difference between
zone of excellence and zone of genius.
So, can we talk a little bit about that?
I mean, it sounds like what you just
described was you operating in your zone
your zone of genius, but what's what's
the difference between zone of
excellence and zone of genius? And how
(32:29):
can you recognize where you're at?
The zone of excellence sounds really
good and it is really good up until a
point. The zone of excellence is when
you're doing things you're good at and
you know you're good at them because
people give you money for doing them or
appreciate you doing or pat on the back
(32:50):
or whatever it is. Um
I I think that so many of us go for the
wrong kind of reward. You know who is
it? Somebody famous said that they spent
50 years climbing the ladder only to
realize they had it leaning against the
wrong wall. And so, uh, the zone of
(33:14):
excellence is you're doing stuff you're
good at. You get paid well for it. You
get a lot of out of girls and out of
boys, but it's not ultimately
satisfying. But the problem is it's
pretty darn addictive because in your
zone of excellence, you're other people
like it. They want you to be there. You
know, like my friend that was the
(33:35):
biggest real estate developer in u the
uh Caribbean until Hurricane Hugo
flattened his projects. I mean,
literally flattened his several of his
major projects. And
so he said I I asked him years later,
"What was the hardest part about
(33:56):
suddenly
not having what you had before?" And he
said, "You know what? The hardest part
was
listening to my kids complain about not
being able to fly first class anymore,
you know."
and
and he said that really bugged me, you
(34:17):
know, that uh I I'd never flown first
class and then I was flying first class.
So my kids got to first class, now
they're complaining because they have to
sit and coach, you know, so what has my
life been about? So if you plug all of
your good well-being into how other
people feel about you or think about you
or how they appreciate, you're bound to
(34:38):
have a collapse of that at some point
because life is not about achievement.
It's about the resolution of certain
inner things so that we can experience
the good things of life. The good things
of life, the best thing that we know so
far on our planet is the free and easy
exchange of love and harmony with one or
(34:59):
more human beings. And I feel grievously
sad about this, but I've been around the
world now more than 30 times and I can
tell you that most people in the world
are not experiencing
the free and easy flow of love in their
lives. And I want to change that. The
(35:20):
other thing I've noticed in my travels
is that very few people are really
content with what they're doing, what
their life is all about. You know, I
meet people all the time that says, "Oh
gosh, you know, like
I've gotten to be the CEO of this
Fortune50 company and yet I feel like if
(35:41):
I died tomorrow, my life would be a
failure." Well, what are they talking
about? They're talking about the
difference between the zone of
excellence and the zone of genius.
Because when you're in the zone of
excellence, there's that yearning to
express your genius, but you haven't
quite figured out how to do that yet. If
you can do that, your life becomes
(36:04):
radiant because then you're the CEO and
you're opening up all of these other
frontiers in yourself at the same time.
And I remember walking down the hall
with a CEO of a big company out in the
Midwest and I was talking to him about
(36:24):
I I wondered out loud. I said, "How long
has it been since you've just taken 10
minutes to yourself to figure out what
is my genius? Am I doing what I love to
do? and how could I learn to love it and
do what I love more? And he said, we're
walking down the hall and he said, "Oh
(36:46):
man, if I ever had 10 minutes to do
that, if I could put together 10 minutes
to do that, that would really change
everything."
I said, "Stop. Let's walk back to your
office." And we sat down in his office.
And that's what we did. I said, "Let's
close our eyes, sit quietly, breathe,
and simply ask yourself, what do I most
(37:07):
love to do here? And how could I do it
more?" Wow. He didn't even need 10
minutes of this. It was more like three
minutes. Suddenly, he was saying, "Oh my
gosh, you know, I realize there's this
whole open frontier I could be going
into." So, oh, those are such beautiful
moments and I feel so blessed because
(37:30):
I've been able to been sitting on the
front seat of many thousands of them by
now. It's a very rewarding thing to be
able to see somebody open up their zone
of genius right in front of your eyes.
I can only imagine how uh how rewarding
and how fulfilling that must be. you
know, just knowing how how much I love
to see light bulbs go off when I help
(37:52):
somebody, you know, come up with an idea
or break through something small, you
know, not even close to what the zone of
genius might be. So, my my next question
in that is I have to imagine, especially
based on some of the stuff you just
said, that
a lot of times leaders, entrepreneurs,
CEOs probably identify with their zone
(38:15):
of excellence. they they form an
identity around it. Uh so how do how can
we start to unwind that identity from
what they're good at but might no longer
be fulfilled by you. You understand what
I'm saying?
Yes.
I keep coming back to people getting
(38:37):
more sensitive with your body because
you know your body has been around for
millions of years perfecting
things like feelings and sensations
and yet you can see in modern life how
people get led away from knowing the
(38:57):
truth of what their bodies are trying to
tell them. You know, like 125 years ago,
the average American
ate less than a pound of sugar a year.
The modern American, the 225, 2025
version,
average eats more than a 100 pounds of
(39:20):
sugar a year. And that is something that
no body can keep up with, you know,
because your body has been used for
millions of years to living on nuts and
fruits and things like that
occasionally. Most of the time, it's
been eating rice and beans and things
that grow in the forest and bananas and
(39:40):
things like that. It's only been
recently that we've been able to eat a
variety of foods and here we are pouring
in 100 pounds of sugar. Whoa. So you're
being taken away from what your body can
organically let you know. So now we have
150 different pills to make your anxiety
go away. Uh but what happens when your
(40:02):
anxiety doesn't go away eventually? You
know, one of my clients that I work with
now, a very
very successful person
was taking
more than 50 oxycontton a day to support
his lifestyle. And eventually, you know,
(40:22):
your body's just not going to be able to
take that anymore. And so, he had to
learn to wean off the medications and
face his feelings and his fears and his
pain by himself. And fortunately, he's
learned how to do that now years later.
And so, he's become a master of knowing
what's going on in himself. He can tell
the difference, for example,
(40:45):
between being scared, anxious, and being
hungry. Nature has kind of thrown a
curveball to us because it's put our
hunger sensations right next to our fear
sensations. So, a lot of people eat when
they're actually scared or anxious. And
it never works, of course, because if
you just put in food on top of anxiety,
(41:07):
your body's not digesting food when it's
anxious. And so it'll sit there in the
middle of your body and just feel like a
big lump. So, we need to learn how to
really be in touch with what we're
feeling, what our aspirations are. This
thing I keep returning to about genius
is really simple. If you just break it
down into what do you really love to do
(41:30):
that like if you think about your work
that you're doing right now, what is it
about it that you most love? You know,
Josh, you've obviously found your genius
zone and are beginning, you know,
probably 10 years ago if I'd asked you,
do you imagine that you're going to be
doing a popular podcast on the subject
(41:50):
of X, Y, and Z, you would have said,
what?
Not a chance. Not a chance.
Yeah. Not a chance. And neither would I.
I mean, if you look at me now, if you
looked at me 50 years ago, you would
have seen a person with a completely
different body. I was tremendously
overweight. I wore a pair of big thick
glasses. Uh, I smoked heavily, two or
(42:12):
three packs of moral burrows a day when
I was in my early 20s. Thank goodness I
woke up when I was 24 and began to
change my life because I sure wouldn't
have been here. I don't think as long as
I've been around if I hadn't made some
major corrections in my life.
Yeah. No, I I really truly appreciate
this conversation. I want to be
(42:33):
respectful of your time. I know we got
about 10 minutes left. I got two more
questions for you. Uh so so we've been
talking about the zone of genius.
There's a word that that has been coming
up quite a bit and uh and you said you
said it a couple couple minutes ago,
most people aren't experiencing uh free
and easy love and harmony. You know, you
(42:53):
talked about the zone of genius being
doing what you love, you know, what you
love to do. So, I'm curious, especially
for the listeners of this show,
what's the connection between love and
leadership that most people miss?
Well, the beautiful leaders I've met,
(43:13):
and I've met some of the most beautiful
leaders on the planet. I had the
pleasure of consulting for a number of
years down at Dell Computer and working
with Michael and his team, and I worked
for many years with um Motorola and um a
few other big companies like that. And
one of the things
I think the great leaders come from a
(43:36):
place of love.
And leaders who aren't great, there are
things about themselves that they
haven't learned to love yet that are
keeping them from the type of greatness
that they could possibly be. And so I
I think of some of the people that I've
(43:57):
had the pleasures of walking the halls
with both in America and in Europe
and to a certain extent in Asia too, but
I haven't done as much work there as I
have in um North America and u Europe.
I think that I have met more genuinely
(44:19):
spiritual people
in the halls of con corporations than
I've met in the various monasteries and
holy places I've visited over the years.
And the reason I say that is because
if you're successful in business, you
have to have a certain resonance with
(44:42):
other people and a certain ability to
tune into
who other people are and what their
genius could be. And you can only get
there by doing that with yourself. You
can't ever do for other people what you
haven't been able to do for yourself.
And so if you have made inquiries into
(45:04):
your own genius and found out what your
biggest contribution is, then you can
see that with X-ray vision or I would
say heart assisted vision of who people
really are. And I was just um
grieving and celebrating the loss of uh
(45:25):
Bob Shapiro who was the head of Monsanto
for a number of years and uh just an
amazing executive that I had the
pleasure of working with and he passed
away a month or so ago and um I was
going through his uh memorial service
because I wasn't able to attend it was
(45:45):
out in Chicago but so many people spoke
spoke not to his brilliance of his mind
where it was insanely brilliant, but
also to the bigness of his heart and the
way he had opened up possibilities for
other people. And you know, I'm I'm an
old guy now. I'm um 80. And I um
(46:09):
and so I've been around the deathbeds of
more than one person I know. And I can
tell you just flat out that people are
not talking about how much money they've
made or how they've climbed the ladder
of life when they're on their deathbeds.
You know, I had the great
experience of being with my dear friend
(46:29):
Jim Selman, my golf buddy of 20 years
that I played hundreds of rounds of golf
with. He passed away on December 29th
and I had the opportunity to go over at
Christmas and be with him and spend
some of the last days of an hours of his
life with him. And I was so deeply moved
(46:50):
by, you know, he had spent his lifetime
helping other people and, you know, was
a great therapist and business
consultant and things like that. And how
open he was and how, you know, he said,
"This is it." you know, and
I'm, you know, I'm leaving and I want to
(47:12):
leave everything behind here, you know,
and when he was lucid, those were the
kind of things he was talking about. And
so,
you're a long way from your deathbed.
I'm hopefully a few years away from
mine, but whenever it comes, I want to
be able to say, I used myself up
completely. I gave everything. I left it
(47:33):
all on the field. I was like my old high
school coach, leave it on the field, you
know, you know, don't save it for your
girlfriend at the dance afterwards, you
know, put it on the field. Yeah.
And your girlfriend may leave you for
another man afterwards. He was a salty
old cuss. Whitey Smith was his name. But
he had a lot of wisdom to him, too. But
(47:54):
his point was commitment is where it's
at, fellas.
There's a big difference between on the
bench and on the field. And if you're on
the field, and we all are,
once we're learning to walk around in
the world, we've got to be able to give
it our all to come from a place of
loving, unconditional commitment.
(48:16):
I love that answer. I I I truly uh truly
do. I think that that provides a lot of
clarity and context and honestly
direction, I think, for a lot of people,
especially leaders out there listening.
So, that'll lead us into our our last
question, Gay, and then I'll I'll let
you go. Um, I love to ask this question.
(48:37):
I get a a variety of responses, but it
really speaks to the essence of the show
and why we do this. But I'm curious,
what is a truth that took you years to
fully understand, but changed everything
once you finally did?
Beautiful question.
(48:58):
I would say it has to do a lot with
commitment
that it took me a long time particularly
in my relationships
until I met my wife Katie when I was 34
years old. I'd had a number of different
relationships in my teens and 20s,
but I didn't realize until I shortly
(49:20):
before I met Katie that I was never
really committed to any of them. I
always had kind of one foot out the back
door, you know, that I was already in
the process of leaving before I got
there. And that was just an old life
pattern of mine that I needed to take a
look at at how much of my life I'd spent
running away from things and never
(49:41):
really letting myself really experience
them. And finally, I I started doing
that in my 30s, letting myself really
feel myself and tune into my genius and
all the things that you and I have been
talking about, Josh. Um and as I started
doing that, wow, life became so much
more effortless in a way, you know, that
(50:04):
once I decided to choose being where I
was and to choose doing what I was doing
and to realize that I was the one that
was doing it, not somebody else making
me do it. But even if it looked like
they were hiring me and paying me to do
it, I was the one that was in charge of
(50:24):
actually being committed to it or not.
And ooh, that took me so long to figure
out. But boy did it come in handy in my
relationship. Well, all my
relationships, but especially for the
past 45 years that I've been with Katie,
just every time any subject comes up, I
look at, oh, I must have been committed
(50:46):
to that. You know, because it's our
unconscious commitments that cause our
problems, not our conscious commitments.
And it's the unconscious commitments to
get punished, the unconscious commitment
to get rejected. You all of those kind
of things get in the way. But when you
start fleshing out your conscious
commitments, wow, life becomes the
(51:08):
smooth, effortless journey it was always
trying to be.
I love that. What a great place to stop
there. Gay, any final thoughts or where
can people find you or learn more?
Well, we have a couple of great
websites. We um have had hendrix.com for
30 years now. Hendry cks.com. That's
(51:30):
kind of the main place where you can
find out all the samples of our work. We
also have another one that's our
nonprofit foundation called the
Foundation for Conscious Living. And
there's a lot of
videos and free materials and things
like that. That one thing I did want to
mention.
(51:50):
I'm big on learning how to use the best
technology around for things. Like I
love these video conference technologies
because I can sit here in my beautiful
office that I've spent half my life
making beautiful and I can sit here and
give a keynote to a room full of people
in Rochester, New York, you know, and so
(52:11):
uh I love the latest and the latest
technology AI.
I've spent the summer with an AI team
developing a new AI assisted coaches
portal. And so if you go to
hendendricks.com
um you can find out all about the
coaches portal. Go in and check it out.
You can get a little trial from it. And
what it is, we took all of our training
(52:33):
materials like our proprietary 900page
training manual that we use and we put
it in our own AI. So you can get out to
the big AI through our portal, but you
can also get the stuff that you can't
get out there in regular AI land. And so
you can get all the Hendricks materials
from our uh 45 years of training and 200
(52:56):
videos and all of those kind of things.
Find out the answers to any clinical or
consulting related questions that you
might have. You know, what should I do
with my first session with my anxious
client? Or I have a couple coming in
that fights about sexuality. What do I
do? you know, so you can get answers in
(53:18):
30 seconds that it took me years to
figure out. And I think that's one of
the great advantages of the new
technologies.
Amazing. What a what a day and age that
we live in, huh? That's that's
fantastic.
Well, Gay, I I can't thank you enough
for coming on the show and and sharing
your wisdom with me and and with our
audience. And I know for a fact that
(53:39):
they're going to get a lot out of this.
They're going to just eat this up. So,
thank you so much for uh for everything
that you you've done, for the books that
you've written, and for the the
knowledge and wisdom that you shared
today.
My pleasure. Thank you for mining your
zone of genius and expressing it in the
world.
I do what I can because of you. Thank
(54:00):
you.
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