They Gave The Company To The Employees (Here’s Why)

A candid business podcast for growth-minded leaders and entrepreneurs. Hosted by Josh Zolin. The truth about leadership, business, and becoming who you’re meant to be.

 

What happens when a CEO stops optimizing for the quarter and starts optimizing for people? Henny Penny’s Rob Connelly walks us through why they converted to an ESOP (employee stock ownership plan), how it changed behavior on the floor, and the leadership credo that guided the journey: “Savor the day while always learning for a better tomorrow.” We talk long-view decision making, radical accountability, and why “start with people and the numbers will follow” isn’t just a slogan — it’s the operating system.

—
Guest: Rob Connelly, Executive Chairman, Henny Penny
Topics: ESOP mechanics, culture shifts, long-term vs short-term, optimism with realism, profit sharing, supplier health, zero-layoff philosophy.

🎯 Free resource: 90 Day ROI Playbook — Multiply Your Profits with the Skills No One Trains https://bitnw.academy/roiplaybook

Episode Transcript

(01:00:03):
what inspired the
shift to go to
employee
ownership.
There are
companies that
every year
they're cutting
people in order
to make the
numbers.
I think you start
with the people
and then the
numbers
will follow.
What about the
presence portion?
Why is that
important and
how's that
served you?
I think you wanna

(01:00:23):
live your life to
its fullest.
If you're always
thinking about
tomorrow
or you're
thinking about
yesterday,
you're not
living today.
In 2014, I lost
one of my sisters
to cancer.
And she lived a
great life and

(01:00:44):
she was an
inspiration
how she lived and
actually how she
fought cancer
for like
11 years.
I have this kind
of personal credo
that I had
developed
when I was at a
leadership
seminar

(01:01:05):
back in 2012.
And it was this,
it's
savor the day
while always
learning for a
better tomorrow.
And I think
within that, I
was just what I
tried to do
and what I would
encourage others

(01:01:26):
to consider
is whatever is
going on,
to really savor
where you are and what
you're doing.
Not to be
fatalistic, but
life is short.
And I think we
just need to
appreciate
wherever we are,
whatever
we're doing.
So that savoring
the time, being

(01:01:46):
engaged
where you are,
not thinking
about what
happened or what
will be,
but just being
engaged in
the present
and then being
just curious
and looking
and trying to
find a better way
by just learning.

(01:02:06):
And then I am
optimistic.
I try not to have
rose colored
glasses,
but just being
optimistic.
And so to me, I
think
throughout this,
this is something
that I've
tried to do.
It's not perfect.
I'm not there all
the time.
There are times
when I'm not
excited about

(01:02:27):
where I am
at the moment or
whatever,
but there are
times when I'm
not totally open
and being
curious, but I
try to
push myself
to really savor
the day while
always learning
for a better
tomorrow.
And I would just
say through a lot
that we'll be
talking about,
that was kind of
the lens of which
I was trying to

(01:02:47):
do things.
So maybe for
people just to
think of,
is that something
that might fit
for them
or work for them?
I love that.
I'd like to get
more into that.
Actually, I do
have an immediate
follow-up
question to that.
How long have you
been operating
under that Credo?
It was 2012 when

(01:03:09):
I created that
and it was at
this leadership
seminar that I
went to.
And it was really
powerful,
but it just
really made me
spend some time
thinking about
what drove me.
So I would say
that's when I'd
captured it.
I never really
thought about it,
but I think I'd
really lived that

(01:03:30):
way for a while,
just really
trying to...
So I don't know
when it happened,
but that's when I
crystallized it.
I think it also
was, again, for
somebody
who's wanting
to lead or
wanting to grow.
It was just this,

(01:03:50):
I think there's
elements
about being
present when
we're with
other people,
being open and
curious about
them to be,
and to be also
positive when
you're not
positive.
And again, I'm
trying to
differentiate,
not like
deceiving
yourself and
having
rose-colored
glasses
and not seeing
what's there,

(01:04:11):
because you need
to see
what's there.
But within it to
be like,
we can overcome
this to be
positive,
because I don't
know about you.
I don't like to
be around
negative people.
And so when
people are
negative,
I think it's very
difficult for
them to lead,
or they wonder

(01:04:31):
why they can't
get that role.
And it's like,
well, that's
not the way
to get there in
my mind.
It's just my
opinion.
No, I
appreciate it.
That's the whole
reason you're on
the show
is to share your
opinion.
And this is an
important
one, right?
Because it's one
I've thought
about a lot,
because I've been
around quite a

(01:04:52):
few leaders
and people in
positions
of power,
if that's how you
wanna call it.
And in all ends
of the
spectrum, right?
Those who are
hyper-pessimistic,
those who are
hyper-realistic,
and those who are
hyper-optimistic.
And it's really
interesting to
see the dynamic
that's built
around them

(01:05:12):
in each one of
these
different types.
But I really like
what
you're saying,
because you're
saying
there's a balance
somewhere between
optimism
and realism
that can make for
an incredible
leadership style.
Is that right?
Yeah, and I
just think,
being optimistic,

(01:05:33):
I think is also
compatible with
understanding the
realities that
you're facing.
It's also
compatible with
radical
accountability.
Yeah.
You know, like I
am taking this

(01:05:54):
responsibility
for this.
And to me, that's
not in the way of
being positive
about our
abilities to
overcome.
Our abilities to
kind of have some
stability,
whether it's the
pandemic,
or whether

(01:06:14):
there's so much
noise in
the world.
And I think from
leading to be
able to be like,
what is the role
of a leader
oftentimes?
And again, I
don't think it's
rose-colored
glasses,
but I think it is
providing some
stability,
some a place of
outside
the storm.
Like when we were
in the pandemic,

(01:06:34):
it was like,
there was lots of
reasons to be
concerned.
People were
concerned about
the future.
And what's ironic
is when there's a
threat like that,
and you're
concerned about
the future,
then people wanna
know what the
future is.
And then you're

(01:06:55):
like, well,
we never knew
what the
future is.
But to be able to
kind of, but to
put it in
context,
and again, I
think having this
a longer view
to be able to say
like,
hey, this is,
we're not gonna,
this is not gonna
last forever.
Like, our
customers and our
world will
thrive again.
I'm not sure
when, but it's
providing that.

(01:07:15):
So I've kind of
went off
into a path,
but I would say
there is a
nuance to this
of being positive
doesn't mean
rose-colored
glasses.
Being positive
doesn't mean you
don't see what is
happening
in dealing
with that.
A positive is not
about
accountability
or not being

(01:07:36):
radically
accountable.
And I think
that's another
element that
people need
to embrace being
a leader and is
accountability.
And so all those
things, but so
often in
our world
when people are
learning and
whatever,
it's kind of
like, oh, it's
this or that,
or one or

(01:07:56):
the other.
And this is where
I'd say,
it's just
something that is
a key
element to me
in being a
positive and a
force to rally us
together
to keep going
when mostly you

(01:08:17):
might have
90 reasons
to be paralyzed
into not doing
anything.
And then just
kind of like, we
hear the 10,
why we're going
to move.
Whatever the
times are
gonna be,
because no matter
what's happening,
there's business
to be had.
I mean, even now
people can talk
about the tariffs
and they can talk
about all sorts

(01:08:37):
of issues
that are just
like, what are we
gonna do?
And it's like,
well, I think
we're gonna
keep moving.
Yeah.
Like, can you
think about it
right now?
We're over
halfway through
the year.
Can you even
believe it?
No, I don't think
anybody can.
And everybody's
talking,
has been talking
about how the
world's ending.
I was like, well,
by the way,
it just
progressed six
months while we

(01:08:58):
were all
and a lot of
business
happened.
And so do you
wanna be stuck?
Yeah.
Or do you wanna
figure out like,
I don't know the
answer to
all this,
but let's
keep moving.
I love that.
I love that take.
I really
appreciate you
kind of welcome
me through that.
I'll ask one more
question on the

(01:09:18):
credo aspect.
And then I'm
gonna ask you how
it kind of
transpires
into the culture
you've created.
But you talked
about the
positivity,
which I think is
an incredible
take on that.
What about the
presence portion?
Why is that
important and
how's that
served you?
Well, I think
it's just
important because

(01:09:42):
I think you wanna
live your life to
its fullest.
And if you're
always thinking
about tomorrow
or you're
thinking about
yesterday,
you're not
living today.
And not to be,
again,
fatalistic,
but it's kind of
like, I believe
life is short.

(01:10:05):
I can't believe
how old I am.
I never thought,
I don't feel any
different,
but it's gone on.
But in 2014, I
lost one of my
sisters
to cancer.
And she lived a
great life and
she was an
inspiration,
how she lived and

(01:10:25):
actually how she
fought cancer
for like
11 years.
But we all have
different, I
think examples
of where you see
life is precious.
And to me, it's

(01:10:45):
hard if you
always are living
in a time that's
different than
right now.
And like right
now, this is
great to be able
to talk to you.
And I love just
kind of sharing
and doing this
and to be here
and not to be

(01:11:06):
thinking about,
oh, here's what
I'm doing tonight
or tomorrow,
I'm golfing
Saturday, let me
think about my
golf game.
So to me, the
presence is
just, to me,
the way in which
you're trying to
really live your
fullest.

(01:11:27):
And that's just
how I
think about it.
No, I love that.
I appreciate the
explanation
there.
So then the
second part to
that, obviously,
this is something
that you've been
living by
for quite
a while.
I imagine that it
bleeds
through you
and through your
leadership onto
your team.
So help me
understand then

(01:11:49):
how maybe you
transferred
some of this into
the culture of
the company over
the years.
And I would also
just kind of add
Josh within this.
To me, it's my
ongoing
aspirational.
I don't wanna act
like I'm a
monk or a--
No, sure.

(01:12:09):
The Dalai Lama
enjoying this.
This is just kind
of like I'm just
trying every day
and trying to
capture this.
I'm not speaking
in a
self-righteous
way.
I would say how I
have
incorporated this
is that for me,
I've learned a

(01:12:30):
lot over
the years.
And one mentor of
mine is
Steve Cobb,
who owned 100% of
Henny Penny
and who was a
second
generation owner
and created this
enormous gift of
the ISAB.
And he and I
spent a lot of

(01:12:50):
time just talking
about things
and he helped me
see a long view
because I had
worked for a
number of
different
companies,
including private
equity, public
companies.
Those were
elements that I
did not learn a
long view

(01:13:11):
in that world.
A lot of my how
I've
learned and grown,
and I would also
say this,
I feel sorry for
people that I
managed in the
beginning.
I feel
sorry for--
I would say I've
probably made
every idiotic
decision

(01:13:32):
you could make.
But here's what I
tried to do
every time,
is just learn and
get better.
Anyway, where I
believe strongly,
and I feel
fortunate to be
able to have,
is this long
view, valuing
relationships.

(01:13:55):
And that was the
model we have
right now
with this
employee owned,
I have the luxury
of a long view.
We don't have to
look quarter to
quarter.
Now, I am a big
capitalist.
I'm a supporter
of all different
structures in

(01:14:15):
capitalism
from a public
company to
private equity,
to family
business, to a
founder business,
and any of them
are all.
We've got a
unique model in
the ESOP.
And I am so happy
that I am
in this world

(01:14:36):
and how I am able
to impact people.
And I would say
like the public
companies,
they're good
public companies
and they impact
people and do
lots of things.
But I would say
like, as an
example,
they, if it was a
game, like
they're
playing rugby,
and I'm getting
to play golf.
Now, if I'm at a

(01:14:57):
public company,
you better be
playing rugby,
or you're not
gonna be there.
If I try to go
play golf there,
I'm not going to
be there.
So you need to
understand the
structure in
guardrails.
And so a public
company or even
private equity
might have a very
short window of
which you
need to have.
And it's like,
you just better

(01:15:17):
know that game.
And so if
somebody is
looking at
me and saying,
well, I don't
have the luxury
of a long view,
I see why
that's nice.
I'm like, I
understand.
I view it
this way.
If we used an
analogy in the
real estate
business,
it's like, I

(01:15:39):
think a
lot of people
are learning
their business
skills as house
flippers.
And I don't mean
a house flipper
in a
derogatory term.
I'm just
saying there,
that's where a
lot of businesses
today, they're
optimizing.
And so if you

(01:16:00):
were a house
flipper,
you wouldn't put
a 50 year
roof on.
It would
make no sense.
And I wouldn't
even advise that.
But what we're
trying to do is
we're building a
cathedral.
And so we're
trying to help
people see like
in our world,
we care about our
suppliers being

(01:16:20):
healthy.
I don't, you can
make a company
look pretty good
in a
couple of years.
You could cut a
lot of things
that we invest
heavily in
because we wanna
be here 10 years
from now,
30 years
from now.
So we wanna have
healthy
suppliers.
We wanna train
and develop
our people.

(01:16:41):
We wanna have
great facilities
to be able to do
the work.
Now, but if I
wanted to dress
the company up
to look extremely
profitable
to sell it
and cut expenses
over the
next 24 months,
you could cut a

(01:17:01):
lot of stuff out.
And if that was
your goal,
then that's what
you're gonna go
do much
like that.
So there's, my
only reason for
kind of going off
on this tangent
is there are
some people
that are playing
a game where
it'll be hard to
implement
some of the
things I'm
talking about
because they have
different
confines.

(01:17:22):
What I would say
is I'm a big
believer
of people
regardless.
And if you're at
a place where
people
are the way
in which they
manage the
business,
personally, I
wouldn't
stay there.
You know, like
people, there are
companies
that every year

(01:17:42):
they're
cutting people
in order to make
the numbers.
I think you start
with the people
and then the
numbers
will follow.
And I think you
can do that
anywhere
and have a
respect
for people.
Regardless of the
game you're
playing,
you might have to
deal with it in

(01:18:03):
different ways
and in the same
way with us.
I mean, even
having a
long view,
if we were
fundamentally a
different company
because of our
business,
you know, we
haven't had a
layoff in
68 years.
We wouldn't go
out of business
on principle.
I mean, we'd have
to rescale the

(01:18:24):
company.
If we lost half
our business or
something,
it would be a
long, you know,
we would do what
we have to.
Now, hopefully in
any case,
if we do,
it would be with
as much,
you know,
as generous and
respectful as
possible.
And kind of
doing that.
So as you see,

(01:18:45):
Josh, I go all
over the place.
No, this is
great, Rob,
honestly,
because it helps
me understand and
internalize
exactly what it
is that
you're saying,
especially when
you give so many
examples
around it.
So no, I truly
appreciate that.
So then that kind
of answers my
question,
which was gonna
be what inspired
the shift
to go to employee

(01:19:05):
ownership.
And I do wanna
mention, you said
a couple
of times,
ESOP for
everybody out
there that
doesn't know
what an ESOP is,
can you just
quickly
explain it?
Yeah, so the ESOP
is this,
it is a
retirement plan.
It's like your
401(k), it was

(01:19:26):
created by
Congress
to incent
employee
ownership.
And so without,
we could spend a
lot of time
on the ESOP
itself, but the
fundamental
of it is,
and it's a very
powerful part,
but it's not the
only part of
being
employee owned.

(01:19:47):
But what happens
is Steve
Cobb sold
all the shares to
a trust,
and that trust
was backed by
Henny Penny.
And then he was
paid for that.
There's a, how
his
transaction was,
and we don't need

(01:20:08):
to go
into detail,
but he was paid
for that.
And then every
year, the trust
allocates
to all the
employees,
these shares.
Now, the only
thing, and again,
I'm not gonna go
too deep
into this,
because it just
kind of gets mind
bending,
but those shares
are an economic

(01:20:29):
interest.
They are real
economic value,
but they're not
shares of like
control.
They don't,
they're not
like, okay,
now they can all
gather their
shares and
then say,
okay, we wanna do
something
different here,
whatever.
They're this
economic value.
But the beauty of
this is, is
everyone in
the company

(01:20:50):
or in our case,
you've gotta be a
US taxpayer,
because it's part
of, it's
like, a 401k,
how does
that work?
You gotta be a US
taxpayer.
It's part of our
tax system.
So every year,
everybody gets
allocated shares
and we revalue
the company.
And that is in
this account.

(01:21:10):
And so we just
finished
our 10th year.
And there is, if
you add up the
statements
of all the
employees,
the value in that
is over a hundred
million
dollars of,
and that would be
roughly like,
well, what does
that mean?
It's probably, if
somebody was
making $60,000,

(01:21:30):
they'd probably
have $150,000 in
this account.
They've been here
the whole time.
And that was,
they've
contributed
nothing to it.
And it is, and
it's a
retirement account
and it's much
like your 401k.
If you leave a
company, you'd be
paid out
and then you

(01:21:51):
could roll it
into an IRA
or pay the
penalties, all
identical
to a 401k.
And so that is
this regulated
kind of pension.
Now for us, we
actually
kept the 401k
and we contribute
to that and these
other things,
but that
is the ESOP.
And that allows
us, because most

(01:22:11):
people in
the world
do not
participate in
the equity value
of a company.
That's usually
for the owners,
the investors,
whatever,
the senior
leadership.
And this is where
everybody gets to
participate.
And so that's a
key element,
but it's really
not the
only thing.
The way in which

(01:22:31):
we run the
company is again,
we have a company
kind of like
profit sharing
that's done
every year.
So we have a
company
performance
bonus, we
call it.
And that is more
substantial
because we're
employee owned.
So there are a

(01:22:51):
lot of other
elements of being
employee owned
and how we run
the business, but
the ESOP is this
particularly, and
it's very
valuable element
of this
retirement plan.
All right, so
then how in your
view did
that change
the mindset of
the employees and
even the
leadership
within
Henny Penny?

(01:23:13):
Well, it takes a
while because I
think we were
a good company
that took
care of people
and people did a
great job and
long time
employees
and impacted
generations of
families.
So when we became

(01:23:33):
an ESOP, the
day before,
Steve Cobb was
chairman and I
was CEO.
And Art Harlan
was the CFO.
The day after
Steve Cobb was
the chairman,
I was the CEO,
Art was the CFO.

(01:23:54):
We ran the
company pretty
much the same.
There was not,
and so even
though it was
different,
it took a while
for us all,
because it felt
pretty
much the same.
And the same was
not bad.
I would say what
this has done is
it's kind of
accelerated
this long view,

(01:24:15):
valuing the
relationship
and our ability
to impact
our people
because now
there's no
resources going
to anybody else
or no resources
going to a family
or investors or
whatever.
But practically,
when you're
sitting
there saying,

(01:24:35):
how have people
changed?
Well, they
typically say
after five
or so years,
there becomes
enough in the
account where
people
start like,
well, what is
this again?
How's this
happening?
Or their spouse
are asking like,
what is this?

(01:24:55):
And then they're
getting more into
this shift of,
it's not just I'm
getting paid, but
I'm getting a
benefit.
And how do I
impact that
benefit?
Which then starts
getting into kind
of this
responsibility
that we have to
each other.

(01:25:17):
If you're kind of
slacking off,
and maybe before,
I don't know,
maybe you would
have waited for
the, it's
not my job,
I'll wait
for the manager
and maybe he
doesn't do
anything or does,
but it's not me,
whatever.
Now, I
think for many,
it starts to get

(01:25:38):
to a place where
that's not
all right,
because you're
holding us back.
And so I think
over time,
there becomes
more ownership of
the feeling,
like I can impact
this and
I need to,
and we all need

(01:25:58):
to be
pulling our weight,
not when you're
just at a company
sometimes
and people get
the sense of
like, well, I'm
getting paid,
that's not my job
to worry
about that
because I don't
really have any
connection.
Like they do have
a connection to
the company
does poorly,
they might lose
their job,
but there is not
a direct line as
much as now,

(01:26:19):
they start seeing
this truth that
is the
better we do,
the better
we all do.
Yeah.
So, and it just
takes a
while as far as,
and I think we're
still on that
journey.
I think we're
still people that
probably
feel like
it's almost still

(01:26:39):
always
has it been,
I'm working and
getting this.
Yeah.
And I don't mean
that in a
negative way,
it's just a, it's
just a, it's a
big
mindset shift.
Yeah, no, I
totally
understand.
And I appreciate
that transparent,
opinion and view

(01:27:00):
on that.
Ownership, and
the reason I ask
is because
ownership
among the team,
especially in
small business
can become a
topic of
conversation,
right?
And one that I
hear from
founders
and owners,
a lot and they
say, well,
how do I get my
team to really
take ownership,
to feel like

(01:27:21):
they're an owner
in the business?
And an ESOP is an
incredible
way to do that
because you're
literally giving
them some of
the company
and they feel
tied to that.
But if I were to
ask you, Rob,
if any company
out there didn't
have an ESOP
and really wanted
to inspire
ownership among
the team
and their
employees and get
them to
act that way

(01:27:41):
about the
business, how
would you
recommend
they do that?
Well, I think to
me, the way is,
how do you make
it real for
whoever it is,
your employees or
whatever, to feel

(01:28:01):
like if I
do better
and help the
company
do better,
that I can see a
real
benefit from that.
Versus, I mean,
if you put
somebody and
there is
no tie of an
incentive or
something that
would say,

(01:28:22):
if you'd say,
well, I want you
to treat this
like your own
money and I want
you to act
like this
is yours, then
there's part of
this where
it's like,
well, that's easy
for you to say
because the
better we do, the
better you do.
So I'm not saying
you have to then
give
somebody equity,

(01:28:43):
but I would say
there probably
needs to be a
connection
between, well, if
you're saying,
I want you to act
like it's
your own,
then I would say,
you probably need
to connect that
with something
that would be
real and tangible
or don't say it.

(01:29:06):
It's like pretty
hollow if
you say it,
but then they
just get this,
they get their
hourly wage or
whatever,
and it's kind of
like, well,
there's
nothing real
behind what
you're saying,
which leads me,
so again, I'm not
saying you need
to say it,
but if somebody
wants to say,
I want to have
people act like
it's their own,

(01:29:26):
then it'd be
like, well, what
would you
put in place
that would make
them have
some benefit
for the actions
you want?
And I bring this
up because this
is probably also
something
that I would say
is a big takeaway
that I would like
people to
think about,

(01:29:46):
and that is if
you're gonna say
something,
then do it.
You don't have to
say it, but the
problem to me is,
the words are so
cheap these days,
and Josh, if you
took how many

(01:30:07):
number of CEOs
you know,
and you took all
their words and
put it in a word
machine,
90% of CEOs say
the same stuff,
and it's what's
the latest thing
too, it evolves,
you know, like,
oh, we're
transparent, you
know, whatever.

(01:30:28):
Mission driven.
You know, and so
here's the
reality,
and it drives me
crazy, there's
some that are
just say it
because they know
it's
smart to say,
but they don't do
anything about
it, you know,
they say it, and
then the worst
are the ones that
say stuff
and do the
opposite.

(01:30:49):
What I would say
is, you know, if
you're saying
you're gonna do
something, then
what are you
doing about it?
What, like, we
can talk at some
point about like,
you know, we
believe, we've
got a kind of our
approach
to how we
impact people,

(01:31:11):
and it has to do
with creating a
best
place to work,
a thriving
company, and
supporting people
on their
wellbeing and our
ownership.
Now, like, when I
talk about
wellbeing,
and a lot of
people talk about
wellbeing,
all those things,
I can show you
directly what
we're doing
to that and put

(01:31:32):
actions
behind words.
Too many people
say stuff and
either don't do
anything
about it or do
the opposite,
and then they
wonder why people
are cynical.
And so to me, I'm
not saying you've
gotta tell people
you believe in
their wellbeing,
but if you're
gonna say
you believe

(01:31:54):
in supporting
their wellbeing,
then I would say,
what are you
putting
behind that?
What are your
actions?
And I think how
we should be
judged more
is on our actions
versus our words.
I love that.
So now that
you've told me
that wellness is
important
to you, what are
you doing
about that?

(01:32:15):
Yeah, we're doing
nothing.
No.
(both laughing)
It'll be six
years ago, I
hired a director
of wellbeing.
And that was
like, at
the time,

(01:32:36):
that was, and it
was
really kind of,
you know, the
reaction, the
company was kind
of like,
what is that?
What are we
spending our
stock
shares on now?
What is this?
But it was what I
was looking to do

(01:32:57):
is to say,
how can we be
more strategic
about how we're
impacting
people's
wellbeing?
And really what I
was hoping we
could do
is not only
because I think
it's the right
thing to do,
to help people on
their wellbeing
journey,
to be as healthy

(01:33:18):
as they can be,
but, and it
wasn't just to,
you know,
reduce our
healthcare costs.
It was really
just, I thought a
way to
help people
avoid misery if
they can,
and also to be
better coworkers
and to
tell people

(01:33:39):
and bring
awareness and
services
to people
that maybe had
not had
access to it.
So here's one of
the things I had
observed
over the years,
and it just kind
of struck me.
It was like, you
know, we'd do
everything
the insurance
brokers would say
to do, you know,
on their
healthcare, like
every year,
there'd be like

(01:33:59):
this year, they'd
come in and
it's like,
we're gonna have
a walking contest
and we're gonna
give everybody
pedometers
and they'll have
teams and prizes
and it'll
be great,
you know, and
what I observed
is, you know,
mostly, not
always, but
mostly the people
participating
were the ones
already active.
You know, they

(01:34:19):
were coming in
and saying,
can I run?
Can I win more
than once?
You know, and the
person who's on
the sidelines
on their 15th
Mountain Dew of
the day is not.
Right.
And so it just
made me think
about how

(01:34:40):
can we try
to be more
strategic and how
can we think
more deeply
about can we
actually move the
needle on these?
So I hired this
woman
who's great.
She had been
involved with
corporate
wellbeing.
And so we just
talked a lot
about the vision
of wellbeing
and looking at

(01:35:00):
physical health,
mental health,
financial health,
social health,
just all
elements.
And one of the
first things we
tackled was the
physical
health and in
doing some of the
looking
at the data
of our employees,
we saw that there
was a big

(01:35:20):
percentage,
especially of our
hourly employees
that were not
connected
to the
healthcare system.
They just, you
know, if they had
something
bad happen,
they'd go to the
emergency room.
And otherwise
there was not an
ongoing
relationship
to try to
proactively
manage your
health or just,
you know,

(01:35:40):
just like, I
don't have that,
I don't
want that,
I don't
trust that.
So we were
working with the two big healthcare systems
in the community
and approached
one and
they said,
they'd never done
that on a
manufacturing
facility

(01:36:00):
because we wanted
to have an
onsite clinic.
And, but they
said,
we're all in.
And we started
planning that end
of 19 and
into 20,
it was gonna, we
were looking to
have a clinic
onsite in 21.
The pandemic happened.
The pandemic
happened in March

(01:36:22):
and we called the
healthcare
system and said,
could you send
over the nurse
practitioner
for us now?
And so she came
and she just
walked around
production
and was there and
support.
And then
September of
2020, we opened
up our clinic.
And then in
November of 23,

(01:36:44):
we
tripled the size
of the clinic.
We added a
fitness center
with locker rooms
and 24 hour
equipment.
This is great
equipment, not
like equipment
you might find
in a hotel or
something.
This is top notch
because one of
the big things
they say is
if you can do one
thing, not that
you can do
one thing,
it'd be
like move.
And we wanted to

(01:37:04):
provide this
access 24 hours a
day, 365
days a year for
our, any of our
employees.
We have three
shifts that could
use that.
We have the
clinic, any of
our, and we've
got on campus
a little under a

(01:37:25):
thousand people
at our
headquarters,
probably 600 or
so, 500 or so, or
hourly production
employees
and the rest are
all the different
functions
you need
to run a business
from IT and
finance and
marketing
and engineering,
whatever.
All of our
employees can

(01:37:45):
onsite see a
nurse
practitioner
or a mental
health therapist
on the
clock for free.
So by looking to
see for the
physical health,
we added the
clinic, also for
physical health
added the
fitness center.

(01:38:05):
We also have
financial
counselors
that come in
that you can make
appointments
to see on
for retirement
planning or just
day to day
budgeting,
trying to, if
you're in a cycle
of living check
to check,
the reality of
check to check,
unfortunately is
for most,

(01:38:25):
if you get a
raise, you know
what happens?
You're still
check to check.
You know, it's
like, because
it's
generally more
of an outflow
than an inflow.
And it's a
tough cycle.
So we added
financial
counseling also.
We also believe
strongly in

(01:38:46):
giving back
and feeling
fortunate.
You know, if you
feel fortunate,
you can do a lot.
If you feel like
you're screwed or
a victim,
it's hard.
So one of the
things in 2017,
we started the
Henny Penny
Employee
Foundation.
And that was
where the
employees raised
the money
and then the

(01:39:06):
employees get the
opportunity to
give out that
for people that
come and
request money.
And when you see
that, you see how
fortunate you are
when you start
seeing all the
need and why and
whatever.
And we think
that's a part of
your wellbeing,
being able to
feel fortunate
and to give back.

(01:39:26):
And most anybody
who's gotten
involved
with philanthropy
or volunteering
quickly learns
that you get way
more back than
when giving.
And so that's an
element of kind
of what we call
the social
element of your
wellbeing.
And so I would
just say, we're
attacking
each one

(01:39:47):
and we're still
trying to move
the needle
within that.
But I would say
those are the
different
elements
of how we're
trying to help
people on their
wellbeing
journey.
That's really
interesting.
It actually
reminds me of a
book I just read
not long ago by
Sahil Bloom, "The
Five Types of

(01:40:07):
Wealth."
I don't know if
you've read that
one or not,
but he talks
about these
different areas
of wealth.
You've got your
social wealth,
you've got your
time wealth,
you've got your
financial wealth,
you've
got your...
There's a couple
others, there's
five total.
But it kind of,
the way that
you're describing
these areas of
wellness just

(01:40:27):
reminds me
of kind of how he
describes these
areas of wealth.
I think it's
incredible that
you were able to
ingrain that
into the culture
of the
organization.
So I guess my
follow-up
question
to that is,
what have you
noticed if
anything that
that has done
for retention,
productivity,
stuff like that?

(01:40:48):
It's, you know,
it's interesting
because I always
say, we definitely,
it's hard to
track
some of this.
We definitely, I
mean, we have
turnover.
We think we have
less turnover as
far as we,
you know, peer

(01:41:08):
benchmark.
But I would say,
and we also know,
we hear
anecdotally a lot
when people come,
they want to come
to Henny Penny
because they've
heard about the
employee-owned.
And when they
hear about the
employee-owned,
they just, it's kind of wrapping up
all of these
things together.

(01:41:29):
And it's kind of
like not
only, gosh,
they've got a
clinic, they've
got this
exercise room.
You know, we've
got a beautiful
campus of,
you know,
we're in the
middle of the
cornfields
in Ohio.
And, you know,
we're on
75 acres.
And one of the
things we do too
is, you know,
and having a best
place to work,
we're trying to,
you know,
again, we're not
perfect.

(01:41:49):
But we're
striving to have
a best place to
work and grow
because if you
can, and what
does that
encompass?
Well, part of
it's like having
great facilities
to be able to do
your work,
that you feel
like you've got
the tools
and the ability
to do work.
And so within it,

(01:42:10):
we invest in our
facilities
and we try to
work with,
you know,
managers to
support you and
to be able to, you know,
if you feel
valued and
appreciated,
if you feel like
you're making a
difference
and it's a
purposeful work,
and if you feel
like you're

(01:42:30):
growing,
you know,
those are all
combinations that
have people kind
of say like,
hey, I want to
learn more about
any, honey.
And then they see
these things like
the clinic,
they see things
like the
fitness center.
And then they
learn more about,
oh, this is
very cool.
And then they learn more about the
wellness, you know,

(01:42:51):
these benefits we
have or whatever.
I would say
it's such a,
it's all of these
different
elements
together.
It's kind of hard
to pull on like,
well,
what's your,
here would be a
classic case that
I can't answer.
You know,
when I get it,
and it's a valid
question by other
CEOs,

(01:43:11):
it'd be like,
well, what's your
return on
the clinic?
And I would say,
I don't know.
And it'd be like, well,
that's crazy.
I mean, I can
look at it, but
it was not,
we didn't have a
bit, if you want
a business case,
you're going to
be hard pressed
to do this.
And a lot of
people are not
comfortable,
you know,
with that, you

(01:43:33):
know, and to me,
it's like, well,
my cavalier with
resources and
money and
whatever is it,
but I think
they're just
elements where I
think the pay,
the payback for
that, it's the
right
thing to do.
We can do it.
We can
impact people.
And we've even
started seeing
that with,
you know,
people that had

(01:43:54):
discovered they
had cancer
and
different stuff.
It's like, it's,
and over time,
so here's the
challenge with
the payback
immediately
is these are
really
long-term things.
I mean, we've got
a
population that's,
and we've got a
lot of long-term
employees
that are nearing
retirement age

(01:44:14):
and whatever,
and some have not
been the
healthiest.
So it's not like
the clinic is
going to change
those
fundamentals, but
we think it will
also help people.
And, you know, to
me, one of the
biggest areas
of potential
impact are people
probably between
30 and 50
who are, you

(01:44:34):
know, maybe doing
stuff that they
don't see yet
that's impacting
their body.
And so they
haven't really
put on a lot of
the weight
or affected
their, you know,
but if they
started looking
at their
biometric,
they could see
what's happening.
And then, you
know, we're not
trying to be this
big brother

(01:44:54):
and make you, but
maybe through
awareness and
information,
people might say,
I choose to want
to impact that
so I don't end up
with that
kind of thing.
Now, at the end,
it doesn't take
care of
all things.
I mean, you know,
people can get
cancer
for, you know,
whatever, but
there are a lot
of health issues

(01:45:16):
that we can have
an impact on if
we choose to.
And so to me,
it's offering
this ability to
have information,
awareness,
connectivity to
be able
to do that.
So can you show a
payback in a
couple years?
No, I can't.

(01:45:38):
And it's because
of those
dynamics, but I
believe strongly.
It's not only the
right
thing to do.
I think it's the
best thing to do.
And I think we
also will over
time attract
different people
that will want to
use and
feel that.
I love
that answer.
So I guess I'd
like to try to

(01:45:59):
tie this back
to something
smaller.
If we were
talking to
organizations
that didn't have
the resources
that Henny
Penny does
to bring in, you
know, wellness
directors and
open clinics
and, you know,
have facilities,
how would you
advise an owner,
CEO of a company,
maybe between 50

(01:46:19):
and 100 employees
and how they
could focus on
wellness for
their people?
This may sound
trite or silly.
I think it
begins with,
and I don't think
you have to do

(01:46:40):
all these
different things.
I think it begins
with a core care.
Do you care?
And so do you,
you know, if
you're 50
or 100 people
and you have, you
know, a manager
or whatever,
or whoever is

(01:47:01):
interacting with
employees,
is there,
they care?
Are they
noticing?
Are they checking
kind of like
without
sounding too,
you know, like
checking
their energy?
You know, a lot
of times,
you know,
like if you and I
checked
in, you know,
you don't have to
be high energy
all the time,

(01:47:21):
but if I know
you, and I'm
really
looking for it
and saying, "How
you doing?"
And, you know, to
kind of see like,
you know,
is there
something off?
Is there
something, and
not
trying to pry,
but just trying
to care to
then say,
hey, can you
connect,
you know,
like maybe you
can connect them
with somebody.

(01:47:42):
Maybe you can
kind of see
what's the core
of what's
happening and
what are
resources
that might be
able to.
But I think at a
core element,
it just begins
with that you're
caring about
your people
and you're
noticing.
And you're, now,
within it, it's
not
trying to pry.

(01:48:03):
It's just trying
to demonstrate
care and support
if they choose
to, because it's
the same thing,
you know,
that we
have a clinic.
I'm not making
people go to the
clinic or the
fitness room.
So in the end,
it's up to them
if they
choose not to,
you know, tell
you, but I'm
just saying,

(01:48:23):
if you really
care, you can, if
anybody
really cares,
they can probably
start noticing
and trying to be
there to support
their whole self.
You know, to me,
I'm like, I
think it's,
I want people to
be their best
outside of
Henny Penny.
I don't wanna be
a company where

(01:48:43):
they're working
and, you know,
you're working
the 18 hours
and we just burn
you out and then
we go hire
somebody else.
I want people to
enjoy their life.
I want people to
be able to be at
important things
for their kids.
I wanna be able
to have them
because I wanna
do that.
I don't want them
to, you know,
go through their

(01:49:04):
whole life and
it's like,
I missed my kids
growing up.
I did this,
there's this.
So I wanna
support them in
their life
outside of
Henny Penny.
And so within it,
it becomes again,
this conversation
of, to me,
about care.
And then if
something
happens,
you know,
whether it's
like, hey, I

(01:49:24):
might be able to
connect them
to somebody who,
hey, if you need
some help on this
or that or where
we can do it.
So I just, I
think it, no
matter
where you start
or whatever
resources
you have,
probably goes a
long way if it's
real of care.
I like that.

(01:49:46):
Yeah, I liked
that a lot.
I appreciate you
sharing that.
I've got one more
section on
business
and then I'd like
to get into a
little bit
of the personal
side of
it online.
Sure.
All right, you
still
good on time?
Yep.
All right, cool.
So I wanna talk a
little bit about
succession
and mentorship
behind that and
kind of how that
intertwines.

(01:50:08):
So I'm really
curious if there
was or what was
the hardest part
of stepping back
into executive
chairman
and letting go of
that CEO role.
Yeah. What that
looked like.
It was, I've been

(01:50:30):
thinking about it
for a while
and been working
on it for
a while.
And I was really,
you know, felt a
pressure
to find a
successor.
So, and then

(01:50:51):
finding really an
incredible guy
in Kevin Bucklar
has made it
much easier.
And I would say
part of
my, you know,
he's been on
board a little
over a year.

(01:51:11):
And I went to
this executive
chairman role,
which is kind of
not a very common
and it was really
kind of saying
I'm still on the
business
side for a bit.
And it was just
really
being able to,
I was gonna put
together a smooth
transition.
And so Kevin was

(01:51:31):
outside of our
industry.
So, you know,
I've been taking
him around to
customers
and peers in the
business and in
the community.
So I've been, in
the last year,
I've been
doing a lot
in just getting
him up to speed
and
supporting him
while moving out
of the day to day
and trying not to

(01:51:52):
create a shadow
or in his ability
to lead.
So just kind of
working
through that.
But I've been, I
think what's
helped me let go,
although maybe
people say I
haven't yet,
(laughing)
is I have a lot

(01:52:13):
that I'm doing.
I am on Dayton
Children's
Hospital Board.
I'm on Sinclair
Community
College Boards.
I'm on a couple
of
business boards.
And I'm also
really focused
on what I call
Henny Penny to
infinity,
which is really
what I'll be

(01:52:33):
spending a
lot of time
as I transition
to just chair.
And be totally
outside of the
business per se.
And that's where
I'm looking to
say, you
know, today,
it would be
unthinkable for
us to sell
Henny Penny.
You know, like
Steve Cobb is
still on
the board
and he'd be like,
are you

(01:52:53):
kidding me?
I could
have done that.
You know, like,
and so it's
unthinkable.
What I'm trying
to think through
is like,
well, if it's 50
years from now,
nobody around the
table is there.
Is it still
unthinkable?
And I would say
most companies
and most boards
and most people
would say,
well, if the
price is good
enough, we need

(01:53:15):
to sell.
You know, and our
dream is this,
it's never sold.
Because somebody
might have a
dream of like,
oh, I'd like to
create a thousand
millionaires or
something.
And, but this
dream is we wanna
be here for generations
because if you
sell, it's over,

(01:53:36):
it's over.
And so we wanna
make sure that
Henny Penny
continues on
in the way Henny
Penny is with a
long view,
valued
relationships and
this a
trusted partner
because of this
long view and
what we're doing,
that it's here

(01:53:58):
forever.
And so then
you're kind of looking to say,
and I've been
spending a
lot of time,
which we don't
have to get into
on like,
why do companies
endure and why do
they fail?
And so that gets
me into like,
well,
performance,
succession, greed
are usually one
of those three
end up causing a

(01:54:19):
company to no
longer be here
or be part of
something else.
So that's a long
way of getting
around to,
I've got a lot on
my plate that
energizes and excites me.
And so I, while I
care deeply about
Henny Penny,
I'm still
connected in a
way that's

(01:54:40):
probably
different
than if I was
just kind of like
riding off
in the sunset
and had no
connection.
So then how do
you help guide or
mentor Kevin,
if you need to,
without actually
overshadowing
what he's doing
with the
business?
Yeah, I could
probably use some

(01:55:00):
counseling.
(laughing) That's the trick.
That's the trick
I'm working
through.
And I'd say,
Kevin and I have
a great
relationship
and I'm checking
in all the time.
Cause I want to,
you can do it
without
knowing it.
Yeah.
You know, I mean,
you've
probably seen,
I've seen lots of
examples where
somebody

(01:55:21):
is really
just not letting
go or they think
they let go,
but they're doing
things that
undermine that.
And they're not
even seeing it.
And so I try to
work hard on
self-awareness.
I see when I,
I've seen over
the last year,
when I, you know,
it was like,
and I shouldn't
have done that.
And I'm kind of
like, talk to
Kevin about it

(01:55:41):
and say like,
okay, let
me, I'm,
and he knows the,
what I'm trying
to walk.
I'm trying to be
there to
support him,
to help him with
the culture, to
help him.
I'm also trying
to help him to
see the
chessboard.
I'm not trying to
suggest
the moves,
but I have a lot

(01:56:02):
of, I have a lot
of experience
in the market.
I know a
lot of people.
I know our
customers.
I know our
products.
I know I see
things that are
happening in our
industry.
And so trying to
help him see that
to provide that.

(01:56:23):
Again, to not
make him take a
move just to see
the board.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
That's, I
appreciate that
thorough
explanation
and the
transparency in
that, because it
is a juggle.
It is a balance.
And I have seen
it, you know,

(01:56:44):
you know, in
close to my own
business
and to people
that I know as
well, you know,
even if they're
well-intended to
your
point, right?
Absolutely.
All right, great.
Well, that's some
incredible
insight
on the business
side of things.
I really want to
thank you for
that aspect of
it, you know,
and I know we
kind of touched

(01:57:04):
on some personal
philosophies
and stuff there,
but I want to dig
a little deeper
into that
side of it now
because it
is a balance
and that's part
of what this show
is about.
So I guess my
first question on
that side
of things
is in regard to
leadership,
so kind of
transforming from
business to

(01:57:24):
personal,
but how has your
view of
leadership
changed
since you started
or since you
became in a
position to lead?
I think it's, I
don't know,
it's just
continued to
evolve and,

(01:57:45):
so I think it
starts with,
you've got to be
in a good place
to lead.
Like you have to
be in balance,
you have to,
and I'd start
with this.
I think
family is first.

(01:58:09):
I think, and you
know, this is
oftentimes,
you know,
again, it's
cliched, it can
kind of be
misunderstood.
It's kind of like
my belief in the
company is,
as an example,
this would be a
classic
kind of take,
would be, you
know, some
companies talk
about like,

(01:58:29):
number one is the
customer.
And I would say,
you know, number
one are
your people.
And I will tell,
you know, large
customers when
they come in,
and I know it
sounds corny,
it's like,
I believe our

(01:58:50):
people are
number one.
And that if we
take good
care of them,
support them,
provide
them the tools
and the support
they need,
they will take
care of you
much better
than if I say
you're
number one.

(01:59:10):
And so it starts
with this element
of this belief
in people first
and the people,
the numbers
will follow
versus a lot of
people are start
with the numbers
and then do the
best they can
with the people.
But back to your
question, I think
as a leader,
you need to like,

(01:59:31):
you know, I've
seen too many
examples
of where people
just abandon
their
relationships,
their families or
whatever in
pursuit of
success.
And the shame of
it is, you know,
I see them, they
got their
monetary success,
but they've, you
know, they're
miserable
because there's

(01:59:51):
nobody there,
they're on their,
you know, X
number of
marriages,
their kids aren't
talking to them,
their
health sucks
because they're,
you know,
medicating
themselves to,
you know, and
it's just
kind of like,
well, I think it,
you know, you
need to be
grounded
and be whole and
to me it starts
with your family.

(02:00:12):
And I think, you
know, there's no
question
in my mind,
number one for me
is my family
and I'm gonna
keep them
number one.
Does that mean
like, any penny
is not there?
Does that mean I
don't put into
other things?
No, but I start
with feeling this
balance in life
about my family.
And then from
there, it's just,

(02:00:32):
you know,
caring and
respecting
of people.
And again, that
doesn't
mean like,
oh, then does
that mean you put
up with poor
performers
or whatever?
It's like, no,
that doesn't,
but I'm gonna be
respectful and,
you know,
hopefully we've
been able to help
people understand
whether they're
performing
or not.
And if they
can't, whether
they can

(02:00:52):
get to a place
where they can,
or maybe can't be
here, you know,
like not
everybody is
gonna get
what I think
is kind of the
privilege of
being here and
doing that.
So I do this all
the time, Josh,
I'm
rambling a lot,
but I would just
say it's
leadership starts

(02:01:12):
at this core of,
are you in
balance?
Are you confident
in your
life and then,
and within that,
you know, caring
about your people
and knowing if
you think success
is only this
monetary thing
and you go over
people, you

(02:01:32):
know, to me,
that's this other
element.
How you win is
important to me, is
winning, you know?
So, you know,
it's like, if you
win money,
but you did it by
crawling
over people
or people don't
respect you or
your
family, you know,
it's like, that's

(02:01:53):
not winning.
They'll figure
that out maybe,
maybe as
they're dying.
So to me, it was
that element of,
and I think it
kind of runs
through it
all then.
I mean, you know,
if you look at
your family,
your family, you
have a long view
on your family,
you know, if I
think, you know,
with the people

(02:02:14):
you're
dealing with,
it's like, gosh,
having a long
view, caring
about them
and then
supporting them,
but then they
have to,
they have to be
good and do
their part.
Yeah.
So I forget your
question.
No, that's
all right.
No, you
answered it.
No, I
appreciate it.
So I guess that

(02:02:34):
kind of leads me
into another
question.
If I were to ask
you, Rob, to
think about who
you were
before any of it,
before you got
into business,
maybe even, you
know, getting out
of high school
or in college, if
you were to
compare
that person
to the person you
are today,
what did you have
to grow or
outgrow to get to

(02:02:55):
where you are?
Yeah, I think I
was, you know,
really immature,
made every, you
know, I was not
thoughtful.
I mean, I think
one of the things
just, you know,
becoming more
intentional,

(02:03:15):
becoming more
thoughtful,
learning, and,
but I would say,
you know,
I was kind of
like every other
stupid
kid, you know,
and getting
started and
thinking what
success,
you know,
you start
thinking about
successes that
you sold the most
or whatever, and

(02:03:36):
then if you're
doing a
sales team,
it's kind of
like, oh, you're
thinking
about how
you're gonna help
sell more
versus like,
I'm really doing
a different
job about,
and, you know,
it's not just me
selling,
like being the
super
salesperson,
if I'm now the
sales manager, it's
really, you know,
do I, am I
supporting these

(02:03:56):
people in their,
what
they're doing?
Am I holding, do
I set the
expectations?
Am I holding them
accountable or
whatever?
Well, I didn't, I
just learned that
over time.
So if you look,
it's like, I
really mean it.
I was like, oh my
gosh, what, it
started.
Yes.

(02:04:18):
And probably was,
you know, went
through
every phase
that a
person does.
My, I think the
thing that I
really learned
and got
comfortable with,
and then it,

(02:04:38):
I think it
accelerated at
any penny
was just,
just trying to
get better
and learn from
what happened and
learn
where, you know,
from others and
seeking feedback.
I'm a big
believer in, if
you look at
the highest
performing people

(02:04:58):
and
organizations,
one element,
and I think
probably the most
important element
is that they are
seeking feedback
information to
get better.
They don't think
they've figured
it all out.
And there isn't
the
arrogance here.
Like I figured
this out.
And there, you
know, you look at

(02:05:18):
the top athletes,
like they're
sitting there,
you know,
working on,
that's a golfer,
like, you know,
it's like,
they're looking
to say, I want to
improve my
putting.
Well, they don't
get stuck on
thinking like,
was this person
thinking I'm a
bad golfer?
You know, like,
you know, they're
just trying to
get better.
And I think
trying to get

(02:05:39):
better
wherever you are
is a sign of, you
know, growth.
And to me, I view
it this way.
And I tell
people this.
It's like, if you
can do one thing,
seek feedback
during
your career
and be really
thoughtful in how
you get feedback.
And I use this

(02:06:00):
example, I have
lots of stupid
examples,
but if you went
to your
grandmother's
house to
have dinner,
she cooked a
dinner for you.
And she said, how
was it, Josh?
What are you
going to say?
It's fantastic.
It's great.
I love it.
Yeah.
And she might

(02:06:20):
even think she
was asking for
feedback.
I was like, I
asked for
feedback,
you know?
Now, if she did
this, what if she
said this,
Josh, I've been
taking a
culinary class
at the local
college.
And I was
wondering if you
might be
able to tell me
one or two things
that might make
the dish
I did
tonight better.

(02:06:41):
What did she do?
She gave you
permission to
help her.
And the thing
with feedback is,
I think you have
to do it in a way
where you're
giving people
permission.
But the flip side
of that is,
you know people
who you give
feedback to and
they melt down?

(02:07:01):
They're just
like, what do you
think I'm
terrible?
You think, you
know, they
melt down.
You know what
happens to
those people?
Nobody gives them
feedback.
They
don't want to.
It's not
worth it.
And when you
don't get
feedback,
it's like walking
through life
without a mirror
or anything.
You can't learn
and grow.
And so to me, if
you could
do one thing

(02:07:21):
as you're growing
up and developing
and whatever,
it's like, just
learn to seek
feedback.
And within it, it
doesn't mean,
you're gonna get
somewhere,
somebody's just
being a jerk
and they're
really messing
with you.
Or some is
not valid.
But you can
probably
start to see
when there's
something
happening and

(02:07:42):
just know
you've got a
strong defense
mechanism
that will
rationalize
anything.
Like, well, you
don't know how
hard it was
for me to do X or
whatever.
So you can talk
yourself into
dismissing almost
all feedback.
But I would say,
the more you can
kind of step back
and feedback, it
can sting.

(02:08:02):
Because you're like,
because some of
the feedback
might be like,
I didn't mean for
it to come across
that way.
And that
could be true,
but that still
doesn't mean it
didn't come
across that way.
And so for you to
really be
able to say,
I'm gonna be an
expert on
feedback,
on how I get it
and how I
process it,

(02:08:23):
I'm not gonna
throw it all out,
that doesn't mean
every
feedback I get,
I mean, some
feedback would be
like barking dog,
just like,
forget it.
And sometimes a
manager or a
friend is helpful
in being able to
sort through,
like, I'm hearing
this, does
this match?
And a good
manager will be
able to say,
listen, this is
not there.
This one, this is
a good one.

(02:08:44):
That's really
interesting.
And as you're
talking
about that,
I'm looking back
and connecting
dots in my own
development
and how much more
difficult
feedback
was to hear
when I knew less,
which is, I think
it can be a
little bit
paradoxical,
if you think
about it,
but when I
knew less,

(02:09:04):
it was a whole
lot more
difficult for me
to take any kind
of feedback and
decipher
how it was
delivered and all
that kind
of stuff.
But if I look at
today and
inviting this
feedback,
I know more about
what I'm doing,
about who I'm
doing it for,
about the
industry,
everything
like that.
However, I am
finding myself
seeking it more,

(02:09:25):
which is allowing
me to grow and
learn more.
So I think it's
incredible to lay
it out like that
and a valuable
lesson for
anybody to
take away.
And I think
underlying it's
almost
either a fear
or an arrogance.
Like, the more
you know,
it's like,
I mean, if you'd
sit there
and go like,

(02:09:45):
hey, I've got
business,
I've got the
formula, Josh,
this is it,
or raising kids,
is there a manual
for that?
It's like, well,
there are people
that think,
like I know the
right way.
And I
would say this,
I don't think
there's a
right way.
I think there are
people that have
used, you know,

(02:10:05):
tough love and
it's worked
and some that are
unconditional
love and
it's worked
and all, it
becomes kind of
situation.
Now there's a
wrong way,
for sure.
But there's not
like a right way.
And the more you
get into it, like
innovation,
oh, I've got that
figured out.
Yeah, you know,
it sounds
ludicrous when
you think
about it.
And there's so
many topics where
it sounds
ludicrous

(02:10:26):
if you're like,
I've
figured it out.
And so to me, the
best is
always like,
hey, I wanna
learn more
about that.
Yeah.
There
isn't a topic,
even the ones I
ramble on
forever about,
that I'm not
like, well,
I don't think I
have it
figured out.
I'm continually
learning.
And also people
saying, well,
like, what
about this?

(02:10:46):
I'm like, oh,
yeah, that's a
good point.
So I think
there is,
and to be open
with that,
to just have a
confidence that
I'm not afraid
of showing
ignorance,
because
it's like,
who knows
everything?
And if somebody
thinks they know
everything,
I really don't
wanna spend any

(02:11:06):
time with them
because they have
no clue.
Yeah.
So in the spirit
of
figuring it out
and continuous
learning,
what is it, Rob,
that you're still
trying to figure
out about
yourself?
I think, you

(02:11:28):
know, it's
interesting.
I'm at a place
where I feel like
I can really
positively
impact a
lot of people,
even my
different roles,
and just trying
to figure out how
I can
best do that.
And also, you

(02:11:50):
know, I
continue on to,
this is a really
special time with
the family
and again,
they're first and
spend time with
the family.
You know, what is
time that I'm not
wanting to,
you know, hey,
that's fine,
but I really
don't wanna use
my time that way.
How do I dice up

(02:12:11):
my time and the
different things
that energize me
and then
different stuff
where I'll do it,
but I'm like, I
don't know why
I'm really
doing that.
So I think it's
just a matter of
trying to
continue
to learn
and grow.
And, you know, as

(02:12:31):
I'm kind of
going through
another chapter
in my life,
this is another
chapter.
How can I
consider you to
be purposeful
and making a
difference and
enjoying
the family
and having those
all come together
and, you know,
they talk about
life in thirds or
whatever.
It's kind of, you
know, and I would
just say,

(02:12:52):
I'm in the midst
of that and then
trying to,
you know, again,
make sure I'm
really
letting go.
And I think the
thing we
all fight,
whether we know
it or not is ego.
And how you, you
know, when you
look at a
lot of things
that are problems
in an
organization or
people or

(02:13:12):
whatever,
a lot of it comes
down to the ego
element of it.
And how does your
ego drive you
and take you into
different places
or have you do
things that don't
really
make sense.
And I
think, you know,
I want to always
kind of try to
tame that element

(02:13:35):
and make sure I'm
not, that that's
not a problem
because I think
it can be a
problem for a lot
of people.
Yeah.
Probably I would,
I'd venture to
say all people
at some
point, right?
I mean, you kind
of, in my
eyes, right.
It's kind of one
of those things
that you,
the only way out

(02:13:56):
is
through, right?
You kind of have
to experience it
in order to
overcome it,
you know, and
it's always going
to be a
part of you.
You know, it's
just a matter of,
does that part
control
you, right?
I think it's kind
of goes to that
last area
where I'm
continually
trying to stay.
And that's just
this trying to
get a deeper
and deeper
self-awareness,

(02:14:19):
you know,
just to kind of,
you know,
the more you can
kind of step back
and see,
and see where
it's like, oh,
was my ego
driving that?
Was that the
right place?
Is that
influencing how
I'm thinking
about things?
Because I love to
problem solve.
I love to think
about things

(02:14:39):
and think about
how to make them
better or
whatever.
And to see the,
you know,
like we say the
chessboard or
whatever,
but when I see
the chessboard,
am I sometimes,
you know,
people can get
influenced
by things
that might be
more impactful to
them than
really is,
like, what's that
have to do with
the chessboard?

(02:14:59):
And just, you
know, I'm not
saying like,
God, this is a
huge, it's just a
part of
all of us.
And to me, it's
like, it's
kind of us,
we all can get
into deep
self-deception
on lots of
different things,
being defensive,
being about
ourselves,
how we see things
or whatever.
And it's just
kind of that

(02:15:20):
ongoing trying to
tame that
and look at that
and make sure
it's not warping
your perspective,
your actions,
for
whatever it is.
Yeah, no, I
appreciate that.
So in the spirit
of kind of ego
and things
like that,

(02:15:40):
can you share a
time or memory
you have
of failing
and how you
overcame that
failure?
And if not a
specific example,
then maybe just
talk about it.
Well, you know,
I'm trying
to think,
I mean,

(02:16:02):
I think my life
is littered with
failures.
I mean, there's
so many that I
would say
have kind of done
all that
everything that
you can do
that would have
been, yeah.
How about this?
How do you view
failure?

(02:16:23):
Well, you know,
there's,
I don't like it.
It depends on
what, you know,
how it is.
If I failed in
the way
in which I
managed a
particular
situation with a
person 20
years ago,
I feel bad
about that.

(02:16:43):
But what I did
was I
didn't then just,
I decided I
learned from that
and I'm not going
to do that again.
And I just
continued to kind
of build.
Now, a lot of
times you'd sit
there and
go like,
oh my gosh, you
have to learn
every way
by bumping
your head.
And I'd say,

(02:17:04):
well, no, but
there's,
if you think
about it,
you know,
I could tell you
stuff that you
could say,
you know, that
you're just going
to have to
experience.
You know, you can
tell somebody in
eighth grade
that it's going
to be fine.
And, you know,
you'll be

(02:17:25):
over this
and these things
that you think
are great big
won't be
anything.
You won't even
remember them in
five years.
But when you're
in eighth grade,
you can't really,
you can't just,
you know,
transmit this
wisdom and
experience
because you're
going to have to
experience that.
And I only say
that in
the, you know,
certainly I read

(02:17:46):
and I see others
and I don't have
to always just
bump my head
or put my hand on
the stove
to do it.
But I would say a
lot of our
learnings is one
of that.
And to me, it's
like,
then I just,
really because I
didn't like the
outcome or

(02:18:06):
whatever,
that I just
decided I was
going to not do
it again
or learn from
that and say, why
did that happen?
What did I do?
Why did I think
that way?
Why did I, you
know, just, you
know, blame them?
Was it really,
you know, a lot
of times
it'd be like,
was that
really me?

(02:18:27):
You know,
versus them?
You know, like,
what's my
role in this?
And so I think
that just led me
to this ongoing
evolution
that's hard to
say like it was
this one thing
or this
other thing.

(02:18:47):
Cause to me it
was like, I did
so many
bonehead things
and just
pregnant.
I'm right there
with you, man.
I
appreciate that.
And that's kind
of what I was
hoping to get
your insight on
is just, you
know, around
failure,
how you can use
that to make
yourself better,
which you
answered.

(02:19:08):
I
appreciate that.
I just have a few
more
questions for you
and then we'll
move to close.
I am curious,
this is something
that I'm always
intrigued by
when speaking to
people, but Rob,
what keeps you up
at night?
I mean, what do
you, if there's
something
that turns your
gears
specifically
and that you
think about

(02:19:28):
incessantly
and that you're
maybe even
obsessed with or
devoted to,
like what keeps
you up at night?
I'm generally
pretty good at
sleeping,
but figuratively
kind of what are
things that,
you know, I would
say this, it's
like, like

(02:19:49):
anything,
I would say
what's
true about us,
just people is we
will always have
problems
to solve.
Sometimes they're
big ones.
If there's no
problem, it's
almost
like, you know,
if you'd sit
there and say,
like say in your

(02:20:09):
business,
it'd be like,
gosh,
it'd be great
when I just get
things smoothly
running.
You know, it's
like,
well, you know,
Josh, you're
never
gonna be there.
And because it's
dynamic and
things happen
and you evolve
and you change
and it'd be like,
well, you know,
gosh, we were
through the
pandemic.
Why is it
not better?

(02:20:30):
And it's like,
well, here's the
reality.
We will
find things.
So if everything
is smooth,
you will find
things that you
need to work on
or problems.
There might have
been small
problems
in comparison to
the pandemic or
dealing
with tariffs
or dealing with
service or trying
to hire people or
whatever,

(02:20:50):
but we'll always
have these
problems.
So to me, it's
kind of
like funny
when it's like, I
just can't wait
till I've
solved it all.
And it's like,
you're never
gonna
solve it all.
We as a people
will always.
And so, you know,
what are things
that, you know,
they come back to
as far as like,
okay, you know,

(02:21:10):
what are real
things that I'm
dealing with now?
Well, like I've
mentioned,
I'm trying to
walk this line of
helping and
supporting Kevin
and not getting
in his way.
Do I think about
that a lot?
Do I talk to him
about, yeah, is
that something on
my mind?
Yeah, does it
keep me up
at night?
Well, I try right
now when I run

(02:21:31):
and do things
that I'm mostly
able to
sleep at night.
Like my brain
doesn't start at
three in the
morning,
just go, that's
something
situational
and big
when something
like that has
happened
and they do.
But I'll have
those things
that, you know,
I'm thinking
about with Penny,

(02:21:53):
or there might be
some big issues.
I'm working on a
nonprofit
and thinking
about some
of the things.
And again, these
are more like,
I'm thinking a
lot about
and whether or
not I categorize
them as thinking
about them
in the middle of
the night,
something
different.
But I would say
also my daughter
who is pregnant,

(02:22:16):
we were with her
like four
weeks ago
for their first
ultrasound.
And at the end,
they said,
we need you to
talk to a doctor
like right now.
We're like, and
we went down and
they said,
we saw something
that we're really
concerned about
and it could be

(02:22:37):
everything from
it's totally fine
to not viable,
you know?
And we're like,
Jesus, criminy.
And we did not
know for
two weeks
anything or the
odds of that.
And they came
back two
weeks later
and said,
everything
is great.

(02:22:57):
So for two weeks,
can I tell you,
I was thinking
about that at
night,
absolutely.
And just praying
for her and her
baby and
her husband
and just, you
know, so,
you know,
we all have
things that will
do it now.
So I guess my
point is,
is I think

(02:23:17):
they're an
ongoing
series of things
that I would say
rise to a level
of
attention to me
that I'm working
through,
but I try through
my just trying to
be balanced
and running and
whatever that I'm
able to sleep
generally
without
interrupting

(02:23:38):
my sleep.
I know, I
appreciate the
transparency.
I really like
what you said at
the end there
that it's the
things that rise
to your level of
attention.
I think that's
really the
takeaway
for people
is this kind of
stuff will ebb
and flow
throughout life.
Kind of goes back
to what you said
about problems.
We're always
gonna have
problems.

(02:23:59):
Yes.
So no,
that's great.
All right, last
question I have
for you, Rob,
and then we'll
wrap it up here
for our audience.
But if you could
give one
piece of advice
to the listeners
of this show
that impacts how
they lead others
and they lead
themselves,

(02:24:19):
what would that
advice be?
I think,
because again,
I understand the
question of one.

(02:24:41):
It kind of
reminds
me of the,
when somebody
says like,
is it culture or
strategy?
Which one is it?
And I kind of
reject the
question
because I almost
look at
it as like,
well, Josh, if
you had
one thing,
would you like
food or
water or air?

(02:25:03):
You can
only have one.
And it'd be like,
well, you can't
make it
without one.
So I think it's
hard to
kind of say,
well, the one
thing, but I do
believe this,
at just a base
level, it would
be care.

(02:25:24):
Care about
yourself, care
about
your family,
care about your
people, care
about your
business.
Do you care?
Do you really
feel it?
You know, I use
the example for
somebody
who does all the
right things, but
then they're
puzzled.
It's like, if

(02:25:44):
somebody was
struggling
with their
girlfriend or
their wife,
and then I said,
hey, why don't
you get them
some flowers
and write them a
note or
something,
you know?
And then they
come back and
they say, well,
it didn't work.
And you know, my
thought is like,
what do you think
they thought you
actually
meant it?

(02:26:05):
Did you
really care?
Were you just
doing it just
because you're
doing it?
Like you
heard to do it,
but people can
tell if you care.
And I would say
just
caring about,
and caring about
like the
business.
Do you care about
your business?
Because if you
care about it,
it's like,
then you're gonna
do the right

(02:26:26):
things for the
business.
And if you care
about people,
you'll do the
right thing for
your people.
And if you care
about
your family,
you'll do the
right thing.
So I think if you
could just have a
foundation
of caring,
of caring, it
will probably
lead you to the
right place.
I love
that answer.
I really
appreciate that.

(02:26:48):
Before I say the
final goodbye,
what if somebody
wanted to learn
more about
Henny Penny
or about you or
anything
like that,
where can they
find you?
So I'm on
LinkedIn and I only reluctantly,
I would say I
filter ones where

(02:27:08):
I know their
entire thing
was to sell me
something.
And I'm just on a
spam list or
whatever,
but I'm on
LinkedIn
and I really,
just maybe
mentioned heard
me here or
whatever.
And I'm
open to it.
I'm just trying
to, that would be
one way.
People can
email me.
I'm happy

(02:27:28):
to get email.
It's rconlin.com.
Rconlin at
hennypenny.com.
Those would
probably be the
best ways to
connect with me.
Okay, awesome.
Well, Rob, I
can't thank
you enough
for spending your
valuable time
with me today
with our
audience today.
That's the one

(02:27:48):
thing we can
never get back.
So I reject the
term, lend me
your time.
I don't like that
phrase
you gave me
and our audience
your time.
And I just, I
truly
appreciate it.
I learned a ton
and I know they
will too.
So thank
you so much.