Transforming Modern Farming and Enhancing Soil Health with Sander Van Stee (Part 2)

Episode Transcript
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Parker Condit (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome to Exploring Health
Macro to Micro.
I'm your host, Parker Condon.
This is gonna be part two ofthe episode with Sander Van Stee
.
This picks up right in themiddle of the conversation, so
if you haven't already, pleasego back and listen to part one,
which includes the fullintroduction and background for
Sander.
So without further delay,please enjoy the rest of my
conversation with Sander VanStee.

(00:20):
I wanna dig in now to kind ofyour journey, right.
So you came to health in.
Probably the shift it soundslike the shift towards kind of
what you're doing now on thefarm came from a health scare of

(00:41):
your own or health concerns ofyour own.
So can you share a little bitabout that and kind of
understanding, like what I'dlove to dig into afterwards,
sort of what the proposedinterventions were for that and
then how you end up, kind ofgetting yourself to where you
are now?

Sander Van Stee (00:56):
Yeah, it was.
I needed a real push in orderto change my mindset.
I was really stuck in a certainmindset because we farmed in a
way that was working and we'vebeen farming in that way for
generations.
So it's not just me that has tounlearn things and relearn
things.
I have to do that despite thefact that my dad was not willing

(01:16):
, was not ready to make thesechanges, or not seeing eye to
eye and he's pushing back and wefarm together.
So there's that extra tension.
Luckily, my dad and Icommunicate quite well so we're
able to navigate that.
But it's also like I feel theweight on my shoulders because

(01:37):
I'm taking the farm from my dad,who took it over from his dad.
There's generations of farmingthat is represented in the land
that I'll be managing.
So it's a real heavy load and Idon't want to mess that up and
do things that are so crazy orwhatever else.
There's a proven system.
There's a proven way to grow afarm and produce products that
you know people are alreadybuying.

(01:58):
It makes sense, logically.
It makes sense to do what works.
And why change?
If it's not broken, well.
If it's broken, broken well ifbroken.
Yeah, you can.
You can bend that, however youlike, like there's.
It's definitely not perfect.
Um, there's definitely lots ofplaces where you can improve,
especially from sustainabilityperspective, but we're making
money like we're, we're growing,we're doing well.

(02:20):
Um, like I said before, likeour dairy farm is above average
when it comes to the size in ourarea for dairy farms, I think
in Ontario typically it's around60 cows milking.
So, yeah, we're doing more thandouble that.
So we're doing pretty good.
I can't complain sort of changeand really start searching and

(02:47):
looking for for ways to improvethings and really be that person
that's sticking his neck outand looking for ways to do
things better and be the onethat make those mistakes and uh
and and be basically a hopefullyeventually a leader in the
industry.
As far as for regenerativeagriculture and for that was a
serious health scare that reallywas the inflection point for me

(03:08):
.
I woke up one day and realizedthat my libido has been gone for
months at a time and as a man,your libido, your sex drive,
that's a huge part of yourpersonality.
So when that started to go away, it rocked my world.
It and because it's not just mylibido, it was the energy
levels my body ate, hurt, ittook.

(03:30):
I have a physical job, so justmaking it through an average day
took so much motivation.
It took everything I had justto make it to to to the end of
the day and then, and then, justbeyond that like.
It had a massive impact on myrelationship with my wife, as
you can can imagine.
With low libido, it fueled herinsecurities and then also the

(03:51):
energy I had to be with my kidsand play with them.
At the end of the day, itaffected every aspect of my life
.
It was very easy for me to staymotivated and and and try out
these different um proposedhealth, healthy habits and stick

(04:13):
to them and be religious.
And we're like most people theythey have a hard time finding a
reason to stick to thesedifferent habits and change the
way they're living their life.
But for me I had all thereasons I needed.
So what happened was I went tomy family doctor and said my
libido has been gone.
I'm feeling weak, feeling tired, feeling like an old man, I

(04:36):
feel like I might have lowtestosterone.
And he just looked at me up anddown and kind of said you got
some body hair, you got somemuscle mass.
I think you're fine.
Fine, but I insisted that Ithink I had low testosterone.
So in canada there's freehealth care, but only if it's
ordered by the doctor.
So because I pushed for it, Ihad to pay for this testosterone
test and, sure enough, mytestosterone was in the single

(04:59):
digits.
No, that led me down a journeyof like bouncing around finding
different doctors, differentspecialists.
They're like oh like.
I had a hormone specialist whothen referred me to the next
specialist, which was likespecifically for male hormones,
and at the end of the day, nomatter how high up I went up to
this, to this specialty ladder,all they could really do for me

(05:22):
was give me a hormonereplacement therapy.
They tested me for all sorts ofrare genetic abnormalities or
conditions and they couldn'tfind anything.
And I ended up doing my ownresearch, like I said, anything
that involved health.
I've tried it and I was readingvoraciously, trying to find out
things that I can apply to mylife that might make a
difference, and things thatstuck are the things that I feel

(05:45):
like actually improved myenergy levels, my vitality, to
some degree, but I never got tothe point where I could start
cutting back on the hormonereplacement therapy.
I despise giving myself theseinjections.
It was never extreme doses, itwas always within normal
physiological levels oftestosterone.

(06:06):
Just the fact that I had toinject it to feel close to
normal it was never back tonormal but just to be a
functioning person drove mecrazy.
I mentioned to my specialist,who I drove an hour and a half
to go and visit, and sometimestraffic three hours just to

(06:28):
visit him, and I asked him likecould I be like, uh, I've heard
a thing called adrenal fatigueor being burnt out, like could
that be what's causing myhormonal issues?
And he basically told me likeno, that's not a real thing.
There's no research backing upadrenal fatigue or being burnt
out.
That's not a real condition.
And so he wasn't even reallywilling to look into it.
Um, so I did myself.

(06:48):
I tried all sorts of differentdiets, um, which I was like what
is the ideal diet for people?
Well, that's, that's quite aquite a journey to go down.
As soon as you start looking,everybody's going to tell you a
different answer, and so it'sreal frustrating.
But the one thing that allthese different gurus have in
common all the scientists, allthe researchers, all the

(07:10):
influencers is that they allpropose to eat whole foods.
So, whether it be whole foodplant-based, or whole food
omnivorous, or whole foodcarnivorous, that's the one
thing they all have in common.
So that's a pretty safe placeto start.
Get rid of all that processedjunk out of your diet.
And for me, that did make areally big difference when I got

(07:30):
sick.
That's when the vegan movementwas in its heyday.
Basically, it was all over theinternet.
So I gave it a try and I did itpretty strict.
I was very careful to eat.
I really emphasized theproteins and the fats in my diet
.
I was eating nuts and seedswith every meal, lots of beans
and lentils, lots of wholegrains, and I wasn't eating much

(07:52):
salads.
I was really trying to getenough calories in because I
have a very active job and I'mnaturally relatively lean.
So I was really eating like thepotatoes and stuff like that
too, and the rice, and not toomany salads, not too many raw
food, because I I needed thosecalories.
And despite that, over time I Ikept developing more and more

(08:13):
food sensitivities.
Like I started off with regulardairy, I started off with eggs
those two things I was reactingto and then over time, I started
adding in more and more things,um, like the preservatives and
food colorings.
I was reacting to all thesedifferent things.
Despite the fact that I wasreligiously following this diet.
I never really had cheat days.
I was always eating thissupposedly perfect diet for

(08:36):
people.
So I realized that there wassomething missing.
So I started experimenting withadding in more animal products
and whenever you take out food,you have the opportunity of
being selective with which whatyou add back in and uh, so yeah,
I was, I was just, I only addedin the highest quality meats,
the highest quality, um, animalproducts.

(08:56):
Um, I started, um, startedfeeling a little better and I,
after the fact, it seems prettyobvious but, um, like, because,
like, whenever I was eating in avegan diet, I was, I could
never get enough chocolate.
I could, I could eat a massivemeal and I just, I don't know,
and I would want chocolateafterwards.
So I'd eat some, some darkchocolate, some 95 dark

(09:18):
chocolate, because that's thehealthiest chocolate, apparently
, and, um, and, and I would eatit and I would want more, and I
had to just leave the house orelse all the chocolate house
would be gone, despite the factthat I was ready, stuffed, right
, so, like, and I realized afterthe fact that dark chocolate it
was one of maybe two plantsources of saturated fat.
So my body was cravingsaturated fat and and it's crazy

(09:43):
because now that I eat asignificant amount of animal
products, significant amount ofsaturated fat and cholesterol,
chocolate can be sitting in thecupboard and I just don't even
want it, which is mind-blowingto me because I thought it's
just advice that I have, that Ijust love chocolate that much.
But now that I'm getting enoughtruly healthy fats from animal

(10:04):
products, my body is happy andit doesn't give me cravings and
I push it all the way to theextreme of eating nothing but
meat, which some people love it.
Some people do really reallywell on it, especially people
with food sensitivities likewhat I was suffering with.
But I found personally that Istruggle to eat enough.
We eat nothing but meat.

(10:25):
So I started adding in, Istarted backing off and moving
more towards a more omnivorousdiet, but I still focus on the
diet, on the foods that are mostdigestible, and that, I feel,
is the biggest differencebetween the two extremes as far
as the carnivore and the veganwhole foods diet.

(10:46):
But even just being moreomnivorous, the real difference
is that you're eating foods thatare not just nutrient-dense,
because the beautiful thing ofwhole foods is that they're all
nutrient-dense, especially ifyou source them from a really
good farmer.
So all these whole foods arenutrient-dense, but they're not
all equally digestible.

(11:07):
And that's where you reallybenefit from these animal
products is because you'reactually getting the nutrients
that you're reading on the label.
It's so digestible that whatyou read on the label is what
you get.
Where that's not necessarilythe case with plant foods and
different people struggle withdifferent things Like there's a

(11:27):
significant percentage of thepopulation that can't make that
transition from beta carotene tovitamin A.
So, like different people havedifferent struggle with
different things basically.
So that for me, made a massivedifference and also it makes

(11:47):
sense because cholesterol fromanimal sources that is the
building block for sex hormones.
So it seems so obvious lookingback, but when you're in it you
don't necessarily see it.
But yeah, so I have a lot ofcholesterol in my diet now.
Naturally, when you eat moreanimal products, when you eat
more saturated fat, yourcholesterol levels in your blood
goes up, which is notnecessarily something to be

(12:09):
feared, but we can get into thatlater on if you want to.
But yeah, so I have all thesebuilding blocks for these sex
hormones, which helped quite abit as well, and then other
habits that I worked on thatalso made a big impact was
things like cold exposure.
I didn't realize it at the time,but I was actually developing

(12:31):
an anxiety around getting coldbecause my dad's side of the
family we all struggle withrhinodes, even the men it was
more common in females, but Ihave rhinodes as well which is
when your extremities get alittle bit cold, then also the
blood circulation shuts off andthen it gets extremely cold and
painful.
So that's what I always had.
So, working outside in the cold, I started developing anxiety

(12:54):
around having painfulextremities from the cold.
And when I started voluntarilydoing cold exposure with cold
showers and stuff like that orin a bath or something like that
, it it was traumatic for mebecause I I did struggle with
the cold and, um, the level ofanxiety was insane.

(13:15):
Uh, just like just aboutstepping into the cold water.
But, um, I learned so much fromit and that's typically what I
found through my health journeyis the things that you hate the
most.
That's typically where you'regoing to see the most growth.
So it's not just the fact that Iwas getting the cold exposure.
You get the cold shock,proteins that are

(13:35):
anti-inflammatory.
You stress your mitochondria,so the mitochondria that are not
functioning properly, they arestressed.
That are not functioningproperly, they are stressed, so
your body naturally um rebuildsor or um creates new healthy
mitochondria to replace the onesthat are not functioning to to,
uh, the full degree.
They're not able to create theheat to keep your body warm

(13:57):
under this cold stress.
So you're and like it's a greathealth benefits around
replenishing and renewing andkeeping your mitochondria young
through cold exposure, becausethat's the energy, or that's the
organelle in every cell thatproduces energy, for every cell,
for your whole body.
It's massive.
But it's not just that, it's notjust the benefits of the cold

(14:18):
exposure itself.
It's the fact that I became somuch more aware of what stressed
feels like, because when youstep in the cold water, what
you're trying to do in themoment is relax and get to the
point where you're able to relaxdespite the fact that you're
feeling this cold stress.
So I became very aware, whiletrying to do that, of what

(14:40):
stress feels like.
I would breathe high up in mychest, really shallow, quick
breaths, stress feels like.
So I would breathe high up inmy chest, really shallow, quick
breaths and I became aware ofwhat my diaphragm feels like,
where, once it sucks up, whichusually coincides with those
shallow breaths I became awareof that feeling of where my
diaphragm is and I noticed thatI was stressed, breathing just

(15:00):
throughout my average day doingnormal work.
That shouldn't have beenstressful, but physiologically
my body is getting the signalthat I'm stressed because that's
the way I just breathe, withouteven realizing it.
So to contrast that I becamemore aware and then telling
myself to take deep bellybreaths and stuff like that, and
all those things made bigdifferences.

(15:20):
And I kept stacking thesedifferent habits and it took me
six years to get to the pointwhere my hormones returned.
And it took such a long timethat it became irrational to
stay optimistic and luckily I ama natural optimist.

(15:42):
So I kept just plugging away atit and kept trying and working
away and I always tell my wife Ireally still believe that one
day I'm going to figure this outand my hormones are going to
come back.
And after six years they did.
And what happened was it didn'thappen by itself.
One of the last things I triedwas extended fasting and somehow

(16:03):
, through that extended fast Idid like a two and a half
three-day fast and it seemed tohave been a biological reset for
my body.
So from that point on, I thinkit wasn't just the fast I feel
like if I did that fast on dayone when my hormones disappeared
, it would have done nothing, itwould just have been another
source of stress because mybody's not getting calories but

(16:24):
the fact that I had so manyyears of these healthy habits
that I've been stacking as faras exercise and stuff like that
and the diets and then the coldexposure and basically anything
improving my sleep was massivelyimportant too, because I get up
early to milk cows, I have along physical job, I want to

(16:44):
hang out with my wife afterwardsor hang with my friends
afterwards.
I regularly got short sleep, sothat made a huge impact as well
, but none of that really pushedme over the edge up until I did
that extended fast and then mybody seemed to realize that it
can relax.
It's okay.
And then from that point on, myhormones returned, my energy

(17:05):
levels returned, my strengthreturned and, uh, I haven't been
taking hormone replacementtherapy since that first fast.

So now I try to do one or two every year, just
as a, just as another biologicalreset, just to to, to reap
those benefits it's prettyremarkable, uh, but it also kind
of goes to show, I guess, yourgeneral mentality, because you
mentioned earlier when talkingabout regenerative farming,
there's no one-size-fits-allsolution.

(17:34):
You need to experiment, you needto be persistent.
So I think you have the rightmentality for that side of it,
but also, clearly, forunderstanding your own health.
You know I was a personaltrainer before this, so a lot of
people would spend a lifetimedoing certain behaviors and then
be upset after eight weeks ofnot having the dream body that

(17:57):
they wanted, which is just veryunrealistic expectations, and a
big part of my job was managingthose expectations.
So the fact that you werepersistent perhaps irrationally
so of six years ofexperimentation, it's just a
testament to kind of mentalitythat you have.
So you went through nutritionalinterventions, tried cold
exposure, did extend to fasting.

(18:17):
On the sleep side, did you doanything from like a protocol
standpoint or did you just startbecoming more aware of your
sleep and being like maybe thismatters too and you just start
prioritizing a little bit more,or did you?

I'd love to hear anything more about what
you did on the sleep side of ityeah, it's interesting, I
haven't been asked that beforeand I have because I talked to
my family doctor, because I toldhim, like him, something's up
with my sleep, because onaverage I used to get around
five and a half to six and ahalf hours of sleep during the
week and then on weekend I'dhave a late night with friends

(18:53):
and maybe I'd get one or twonights where I have two or three
hours of sleep and then I'd getback to the five and a half to
six hours of sleep.
So it was definitely not enoughsleep, but it's not like insane
you know what I mean Like it'snot like you hear crazier
stories of people getting by onless.
So I was like, so I was talkingto my family doctor.
I was like it's getting to thepoint like where I'm literally

(19:14):
falling asleep, walking.
I'm walking do my work on thearound the farm and I'm nodding
off and stumbling because I'mfalling asleep.
I can't sit in a car for morethan 15 minutes and without
having to pull over because I'mfalling asleep, because it's too
dangerous for me to drive.
Like I can't sit anywhere formore than 15 minutes without
like falling asleep.
I can't hang out with friendsthe same way, because in the
middle of the table I'll just be, I'll be sleeping, so like

(19:37):
something's up with and I'm not,and the rest that I need, like
um.
So he, he ordered a sleep studyand, um, one of the things they
found during a sleep study,like, and if you ever do sleep
study, it's terrible.
I always thought like, oh, yougo there for like 12 hours,
right, I had the expectationthat I was going to be so rested
.
I finally got like a goodnight's sleep, 12 hours there,
like it's gonna be great.

I was looking strapped up to a bunch of stuff.

You're yeah, it's not like a relaxing
environment and then, as soon asyou like, roll over one, like
the leads fall off, and then theperson comes in the room,
reattaches it and you're like,okay, now I gotta fall back
asleep, right?
Um, so, yeah, like so.
It was terrible.
It was not a restful sleepnight, but one of the things
that they found out was that Ihad sleep apnea.
So I was, I was choking andfalling and waking up several

(20:22):
times throughout the night, toomany times throughout the night,
and, uh, so what I end up doingis that I used to always sleep
on my back and I wouldn't moveat all through the night, it
seems like.
But, um, I started changing theway I sleep, where I'd sleep
more on my side because, likewhat happens to my back, my
tongue would fall back, and thenit would.
That's where, like, the choking, that's what the sleep apnea

(20:43):
came from was my the tonguefalling to the back of my mouth
and and closing off my air.
But when I sleep on my side,the tongue falls differently.
So then you don't wake up fromchoking, from the tongue falling
back and closing off yourairways.
And then the other thing that Istarted reading about is the
importance of nasal breathing,especially when you're sleeping,

(21:04):
but throughout the day as well.
You want to breathe throughyour nose because, same thing,
when you breathe through yourmouth, it's also stress
breathing, and it's important tobreathe through your nose
because that's where all thesenses are for the CO2.
And your body can't regulatethe oxygen that you're intaking
when you're breathingexclusively through your mouth.

(21:25):
And that CO2 balance isimportant because you need the
right amount of CO2 to oxygen inyour blood.
In order for every cell in yourbody to be able to exchange
oxygen, you need the CO2 and theoxygen, whereas your body can't
regulate the amount of oxygenin the system when you're only
breathing through your mouth.
So I actually got rid of mypillow when I slept and now I

(21:48):
sleep with my hands.
And then what happens?
Because of the angle of myhands, it puts friction on my
jaw and a lot of people actuallyput tape on their mouth to push
for the nasal breathing.
I haven't quite gotten thatweird yet.
I've considered it, but at themoment I thought I'd try this
first.
It's a little less invasive,it'll wear my wife out a little

(22:10):
bit less.
So I sleep with my hands andthen the friction of my hands
against my jaw keeps my mouthclosed throughout the night.
So that's what I did to improvethe quality of my sleep, and
then also just the fact that Iprioritize my sleep.
I still have a young family.
My oldest is seven, then I havea five, three and a
two-year-old.
So, as you can imagine, it'shard to come by.

(22:34):
It's not perfect.
The fact that my hormones arestill as good as they are with
such a young family, I think, ispretty important.
But so I'm sure in five years,when my youngest is much older
and sleeping through the night,I'll feel even better.
Maybe my hormones will, mytestosterone will increase even
more.
But yeah, so right now that'swhat I'm doing.

(22:54):
I'm prioritizing the sleep.
When I'm exhausted, I'll takethat nap.
Sometimes I take naps withouteven really needing to, or sorry
, when I need naps, I'll takethem without even wanting to,
because I'll take my youngest tofor his nap and usually it's
almost a a of a fight to seewho's going to fall first, and I
I think my son usually wins.
But then I'll wake up, lay himdown and I'll head out back out

(23:17):
to the barn yeah, uh, soundslike you're listening to your
body and kind of going with thephysiological needs.

Uh, you mentioned a few interesting things there
about breathing.
Um, yeah, so the the body isreally bad at sensing oxygen,
like when most people like ifyou hold your breath and then
you start getting that hungerfor air, most people think
you're sensing a low oxygen, butyou're actually sensing an
increase in CO2.
So we're very sensitive to CO2.
We're pretty terrible atdetecting how much oxygen is

(23:45):
actually in our body.
So that was a great point.
And then on the nasal breathingbasically breathing in general
is a way for us to control ournervous system.
You mentioned stress breathing,that upper body or that upper
chest also.
Probably that combined with,like mouth breathing, nasal
breathing and being able tocontrol your breath and control

(24:08):
your exhales.
So, generally speaking, if youcan exhale longer than you're
inhaling and really doing theseextended exhales, that's a very
good way to sort of downregulators down, regulate
yourself and de-stress yourself.
So it's this great tool that wehave that's both automatic and
we can also control it too.
I mentioned this in a podcastthat'll probably be coming out

(24:30):
prior to this one.
You know, like dolphinsdolphins they have to
consciously breathe all the time, which is a real hassle.
So they've had to come up withthe idea of splitting the brains
in half, where one half willkeep them breathing and the
other half will sleep, and thenthey have to switch so their
brains can rest adequately.
So we have this great toolwhere we don't have to think
about our breath constantly.

(24:51):
So it's great, it runs in thebackground, but at the same time
we can kick it on if we becomemore self-aware of our breath
and we need to control thenervous system.
So it sounds like you wentthrough a lot of interoception
and getting better atidentifying what you were
feeling within yourself and thenbuilding the skills to control

(25:13):
that in a more advantageous way.
Um that is, that self-awarenessis difficult to grow and that
also it kind of leads into theum, the cold exposure as well.
You're mentioning that um.
Again, you're deliberatelyexposing yourself to a
physiological stress and youhave this natural reaction which
is those short, shallow breathsinitially when you get in there

(25:34):
and your body's basicallyfreaking out and then you're
basically just teaching yourselfbe like can I overcome this
natural inherent reaction andcontrol myself in this
deliberately stressfulenvironment?

So you're sort of training yourself in that way
, which is incredibly beneficialone of the other things I want
to say about biggest benefit ofthe exposure was developing the
self-awareness of the stress.
Like uh, I, I always felt.
Like uh, I don't really getstressed, I thought.
But honestly, my body wastelling a very different story
and it's just.

(26:08):
It was just a lack of awareness.

Yep.
One other thing on sleep beforeI move on to the next question
is there was a study that cameout recently.
It was a long longitudinalstudy.
They were looking at, I think,60,000 people for 10 years so
yeah, big cohort and for a longperiod of time and the thing
that they discovered was thatobviously, sleep duration

(26:33):
matters, like the amount ofsleep that you're getting, but
one of the other reallyimportant factors is sleep
consistency.
Almost for some diseases hadactually had a greater effect
than total sleep was consistencyof bedtime and wake time.
So it met.
So like, even if you're notnecessarily getting the
recommended seven to nine hoursof sleep, if you're very

(26:54):
consistent, usually within a onehour window, um, wake time and
bedtime, uh, there were massivebenefits as well.
So if you can't get therecommended seven to nine hours
of sleep, really dialing in yourconsistency of when you're
going to bed and when you'rewaking up can be protective as
well from a sort of diseasestandpoint.

(27:15):
I want to know.
So before all of this, you hadthe health care really low
testosterone.
What was your lifestyle likeleading up to that?
Because you were still veryactive, obviously, um, being on
the farm, but were there anyother things in your lifestyle
where, like you look back on it,you go oh, obviously that

(27:36):
wasn't helping the situation um,there was, yeah, the fact that,
um, I could, I could basicallyeat anything that I wanted to
back when I was younger, and atleast I thought I did and I
thought I could.

I didn't realize until after the fact,
like I always noticed, eversince I was quite young, that my
belly popped out and I thoughtit was strange, I thought it was
, I didn't know what it was.
People didn't talk about foodsensitivities when we were
younger.
We talk about it all the timenow, I feel like, but when I was
a kid it wasn't talked about.
So I had no idea what was goingon with my belly.
Why was it sticking out?
I thought I was fat, eventhough, like, logically, I knew

(28:12):
I wasn't fat.
So I was like, like, do I have,like, visceral fat?
Is this what visceral fat feelslike or looks like like I don't
know what was going on.
So, um, but yeah, like afterthe fact, like, looking back,
it's so obvious.
But, like, I was eating dairyregular, like regular
pasteurized dairy every singlemeal of throughout the day.
I'd have cheese or or milk orwhatever else, and, um, and I

(28:35):
was always bloated, I was alwayshad, I always had gastric upset
, I was, I was and like, and ifI look to you, like, um, like,
it's the same thing with cows,but if you look at your poop, it
tells you you an awful lotabout your digestion.
And I was literally neverconstipated and I was always to
the other extreme, always onaverage.
So I was always had thisborderline level of upset

(29:01):
stomach and poor digestion and Inever really put things
together.
It was just for me, it's mynormal, so it's all I knew.
And it wasn't until I startedremoving these things from my
diet that I started noticingless bloating and I've realized
that that, like this, is what mystomach normally should look
like.
It's just never like itliterally was never looked like
this way because, like, I wakein the morning, eat breakfast,

(29:23):
have dairy, every mealthroughout the day was dairy.
So I was always bloated.
That was just my norm.
So, like that's, thatdefinitely didn't help and
that's one of the first thingsthat I did is like I got a food
sensitivity test and then Iremoved the foods I was reacting
to and, unfortunately, those,like I was telling you before,
because of the way I was eating.
I developed more and moresensitivities over time.
So it it helped, but, um, thethe way I was eating wasn't

(29:47):
quite ideal for my body.
Um, I think it's reallyimportant to listen to your body
and and eat what you, whatmakes you feel good, gives you
vitality, and not be religiousabout your diet.
It's not a religion.
Don't be dogmatic.
Eat what makes you feel good.
So, so like, for it's like.
That's definitely.
Um, yeah, it had a.
It had a big impact, justremoving those foods that I'm

(30:08):
sensitive to.
And then now, like, I've addeddairy back to my diet and I
drink liters of this stuffwithout any impact and my
digestion is still amazing.
And the difference is it's lessprocessed, it's not pasteurized
, it's raw milk straight fromour farm, and I'm in Canada, so
raw dairy is illegal, but I'mone of the very few Canadians

(30:30):
that can legally drink raw milkbecause I produce it myself.
You can't distribute raw dairy,you can't transport raw dairy,
you can't sell raw dairy, but ifyou produce it, you can drink
it yourself.

I'm rather uneducated on this topic.
Uh, I've always known raw dairyto be dangerous for a variety
of reasons.
Can you speak to that?
Logically, it seems like itmakes sense to be able to drink
something straight from thesource.
I get that, but it's alsoillegal.
Can you just speak to eitherside of this?

It's still one of those areas I'm trying to
learn more about.
No-transcript and proteins.

(31:33):
It's not just a building blockfor your body.
There's all sorts of differentkinds of proteins.
For example, there arecytokines, which are signaling
molecules, and the whey protein,the main protein in milk, along
with casein, the whey proteinis actually a signaling molecule
.
It is a cytokine.
And there are a long list ofdifferent cytokines in raw milk

(31:56):
that have all sorts of differentbenefits for your body.
Many of them areanti-inflammatory, many of them
stimulate your immune system.
Some of them actually stimulatethe development of your gut
lining.
So sometimes people that havethose extreme bouts of endurance
, like those ultra marathons orthe Ironmans, that exercise is

(32:18):
so stressful that they'llactually have a leaky gut
afterwards.
So things like raw dairy cansignal for the healing of that
gut.
Or people that have a leakyakygut, it can help signal the
development of that, of healingyour gut lining, because that's
what it does for baby calves.
It the baby calf's gut is,because it's a baby, it's not
mature, so it naturallystimulates the growth and the

(32:40):
development of the gut.
And another really interestingone is something called tnf,
which is tumor necrosis factor,which has actually been shown to
help your immune system fightand kill tumor cells.
So there's a huge, long list ofdifferent cytokines with
different benefits that are alldenatured with pasteurization.
And then another protein classof protein would be like enzymes

(33:04):
.
Enzymes are also proteins andthere's 60 different kinds of
enzymes in raw milk proteins.
And there's 60 different kindsof enzymes in raw milk Again,
all sorts of different functions.
Many of them help make raw milkvery, very easy to digest.
There's lipases to digest thefats.
There's proteases to digest theproteins.

(33:25):
There's lactase to digest thelactose, the carbohydrates, the
sugars in milk.
So it'll literally digestitself in your gut.
So that's why when you drinkraw milk it's so easy to digest.
That's why I don't have issueswith it.
Whereas after you pasteurize it, those enzymes are inactive and

(33:47):
now it becomes all of a suddenone of the FDA's nine most
allergenic foods that we can eat.
So they're very differentproducts ostrich dairy and raw
dairy.
But then there's also enzymes.
There's a unique enzyme forevery mineral in raw milk that
helps with the absorption, thedigestion, of those minerals.
So once you inactivate thoseenzymes, all of a sudden you

(34:09):
can't absorb the minerals to thesame degree as you could have
when it was raw, and so raw milkand milk in general.
It has all of the requiredminerals and 24 microminerals in
it.
It's an amazing product whetherit's pasteurized or not, but
when you have those enzymesyou're actually absorbing way

(34:31):
way more of the of those, ofthose minerals.
And then also the.
The lot of vitamins, especiallythe fat soluble vitamins, are
quite sensitive, so they'redamaged.
Um, between all the mineralsand vitamins, I think there's
somewhere between 38 and 80percent loss of efficacy of the
vitamins, minerals, afterpasteurization, so like
thereization.
So the benefits are massive andmeasurable.

(34:53):
There's a surprising amount ofresearch done on the benefits of
raw dairy.
A lot of it is based off ofreducing allergies and eczema in
children.
There's one research trial thatI personally find very
interesting because it was doneon adults, and the adults that

(35:13):
drank raw milk as kids hadimproved pulmonary function.
Their lungs worked better,which tells me that the kids
that consumed raw dairydeveloped better.
They reached more of theirgenetic potential as far as the
function of their lungs.
So it's like for me and my kids.
I really want my kids to drinkraw milk because it's been shown

(35:34):
to improve their development.
So the research is out thereand there's quite a bit of it.
But then a lot of people saylike, yeah, sure, there are
these benefits, maybe, but it'snot worth the risk.
There is a 98% increase ofgetting sick from milk if it's
raw compared to pasteurized.
At 98%, that's a massiveincrease risk.

(35:57):
But you can look at the exactsame numbers and say my personal
risk is 0.0075% of getting sickin a year if I drink it every
single day of that year.
And those two numbers they'refrom the same source.
I looked at the NationalInstitute of Health from 2014.

(36:17):
That data is readily availableon the internet and it's the
same data.
It's just relative riskcompared to Absolute.
Thank you, yeah, I was missingthat word.
Yeah, so that's, that's.
That's just.
It's just a different way oflooking at the exact same
numbers.
So, like when I looked at itand um and then, and I looked at
like how often would I get sickif I drink milk raw?

(36:41):
And it worked out, if I did themath, that you would get sick
or I would get sick once every13,000 years if I drank it every
single day, and I was like,well, that's a pretty low risk
if I look at me personally and Iknow that I'm going to get
these benefits, because I can'teven drink dairy if it's not raw
.
It's like there's these knownbenefits and there's a

(37:02):
relatively small risk.
So that's why I starteddrinking raw milk myself.
But it's different when you'reproducing it for consumers.
You have to take I think,personally you must take more
steps to ensure the safety of aproduct when you're producing it
for other people.
So what's actually?

(37:25):
There's new technologyavailable out there that's a
game changer for raw dairy, forthe safety of raw dairy.
That is a testing technologythat tests for pathogens.
There's a brand in Ontario,really local to us, called the
Kraken Sense.
It can give you results for anypathogen you want within two
and a half hours, sometimes evenless.

(37:46):
You can test the dairy, you cantest the milk before you even
ship it out to the consumers andtest whether or not there's any
pathogens growing in there andit it gives it tests
automatically, so it can testthroughout the day and uh, so
it's, it's um, I think it's agame changer for as far as
safety.
Um, I feel like in general, thethe risk was a was already
quite low, but if you add onthis testing technology, it'll

(38:11):
decrease that risk even more,and the decrease in risk is a
trend that's already happening.
If you look at the data from2005 to now, the risk of illness
from drinking raw dairy hasdecreased by 74%.
So obviously there's thingsthat we can do better when we're
producing milk specifically forconsumption if we're going to

(38:34):
consume it raw um, just becausethere's been a lot of messaging
for so many years.

But, yeah, I appreciate you kind of giving me
a one-on-one class on raw dairy, something I definitely need to
learn more about.
I just I didn't grow updrinking milk.
Um, it was just one of thosethings I've never really
interested in, so it was justlike kind of this blind spot as
far as uh nutrition, for I mean,still up until now I still
don't drink milk.
So it's just one of thosethings.
The raw dairy versuspasteurized is one of those
areas that are just never, neverreally paid attention to.

(39:13):
Um, I want to go on to kind ofyour company right Called moral
eats.
One of the things I saw on yourwebsite is that you don't do
chickens.
Why don't you do chickens?
Um, cause, again, like I, Igrew up in New Jersey, like I
said, and there were many what Ithought were like happy, happy

(39:34):
chickens, happy, happy layers.
Like I would get eggs.
Like in New Jersey, there'sjust so many pieces, places that
have a handful of chickens andthey'll just they have an extra
fridge in their garage and youwould just go to.
You, go down someone's driveway, go into their garage and leave
them a few bucks for a dozeneggs, but you're like the
chickens would just be like inthe driveway.

(39:54):
That was my, that was mythreshold for like free range
chickens if you had to avoidthem while you're driving,
driving to to go pick them up,um, so why no chickens?

yeah, it's.
I gotta be careful not to stepon any of my toes when I talk
about chickens.
Um, it's something that Istruggle with because there is
an awful lot of demand forchicken products, whether it be
the eggs or the meat.
But we didn't do it because themission of Moral Eats is to
improve the lives of farmanimals.
So we take great pride in thatevery product that we offer on
our website is produced in a waythat has a positive impact on

(40:29):
the welfare and the quality oflife of the animals that
produced it.
So I instead moved towardsturkeys, because, ultimately,
the real reason I don't dochicken is the same reason why
we don't do veal.
It's just the length of theirlife is incredibly short and

(40:49):
turkeys have a longer life.
They're a bigger bird.
They take longer to mature.
That's why I tried doing turkeyproducts instead.
It's something that I wasexperimenting with.
Unfortunately, of course, theturkey products are not as
popular as chicken products.
People don't eat turkey breaststhe same way they eat chicken

(41:09):
breasts.
People don't eat turkey breaststhe same way they eat chicken
breasts.
But it's something that I amexperimenting with.
I actually plan to have somesmall-scale chickens just for
myself this coming year and justwork towards how I can do it in
a humane way, but also see if Ican do that and produce it in a
way that's cost effective andinteresting enough for people to

(41:32):
buy.
Because I believe you can dochickens in a way that has great
welfare, and that is by goingback to some of these older
breeds of chickens that areunfortunately less efficient.
So, because the typicalchickens are bred to such an
extreme now the broiler chickens, the meat chickens they are

(41:54):
ready for slaughter when they'resix weeks old, which is a very,
very, very young age.
It's insane how young thesechickens actually are, and you
actually have to be careful tonot feed them too hard.
Don't give them too much energyor else they'll grow so fast
that they'll give themselves aheart attack.
So you're on that edge of likeof what's possible as far as

(42:15):
growth rates, so like uh, whichis great.
When the, the, the consumer isasking for the most efficient
product possible.
That is, that is what youcreate, that's what that's what
the consumer created, even ifthey didn't intend directly for
that Because they put on meat soefficiently and so quickly that
they're ready to go by sixweeks, whereas if you let them

(42:37):
reach their mature size.
Those chickens look like turkeys, they're big and then on the
layer side of things,unfortunately those chickens
they're bred to such an extremewhere they they produce eggs
very efficiently, like, um, theycan produce, uh, an egg nearly
every day of the year not quite,but pretty close whereas like

(42:58):
the older, older breeds ofchickens, they they were made
200 eggs a year.
So now they're there's a.
They really bred them for thatefficiency of laying eggs which,
unfortunately, because they'reso good at laying eggs, they
they don't put on meat very well.
So the male chickens reallydon't have a purpose.
So half the chickens that arehatched for the egg laying

(43:20):
purposes unfortunately die onday one because they're male.
So there's real challenges froma welfare perspective.
They're male.
So there's real challenges froma welfare perspective.
And the way that I plan to workaround that is by using some of
these heritage breeds that arebasically dual purpose.
They put on meat really well,but not as well as the
commercial broiled chicken, andthey lay eggs quite well, but

(43:43):
also not as well as thecommercial layered chickens.
They're a less efficient breedbut they live longer, they can
have a longer life and there'sreal use for the males and the
female chickens.
So there's a real opportunityto improve the welfare of
chickens.
The question is and it's likeone more thing that I'm
experimenting with is, if Iraise them this way and they're

(44:05):
this much older, are peoplewilling to pay a price for that,
where it makes sense for me toproduce this at scale, like I'll
probably do it for myself,regardless, but whether other
people are willing to to paythat price, that's the real
question and I'm not sure yet.
I haven't haven't theexperiment, I haven't gone down
that road far enough yet to knowthat answer.
But first I'm going to do itfor myself.

(44:25):
I'm going to see how, what thecosts really are in raising
these chickens this way,improving their welfare and
doing it in a way that reallyimproves the quality of their
life and the length of theirlife, and then after that I'll
see what the cost is and thensee if people are willing to buy
it.
Otherwise that's an experiment.
They'll die.

I want to ask you about any of the issues around
like slaughter, because this isprobably something I'm going to
end up doing in my lifetime,right?
I'm just I'm moving towardsprobably having a farm of some
scale.
At some point there's probablygoing to be animals and they're
probably going to need to beslaughtered.
The thought of that isuncomfortable for me and a lot

(45:11):
of people, probably on the veganside, would be like well, that
should tell you all you need toknow, and I get that.
But I also think a cow can feeda family for a year probably
two families for a year and itcan live a very good, full life
If it's raised a particular way.

(45:33):
I'm still going to struggle whenit comes to slaughter and I'm
going to, and I think thedisconnection for me up until
this point has been the factthat I'm I am so disconnected
from it.
Right, like I can buy this meatat a store and there's no right
, it's already packaged.
There's no face.
Maybe, like you, you grew uparound the space, maybe you've

(45:59):
gotten used to it or do youstill struggle with it.
I kind of see a cow and I lookat it's like face and I see him
running around.
I'm like it's kind of like abig dog.
Um, like it's just something Ithink I'm always going to
struggle with, but I thinkpeople who don't struggle with
it is probably a challenge totheir own morality.

(46:19):
Um, I mean, I'm just curious,like how how you deal with this
right, because clearly you havea mission towards animal welfare
.
Like how do you reconcile thatwith with having to slaughter
these animals?

Yeah, there's so many points I can touch on
there.
One of the things, like youtalked about, you can raise
these farm animals in a way thatthey have an amazing life.
But one requirement for givingthese animals an amazing life is
that for them to be treated ina way that's respectful, and
that you appreciate theseanimals, you treat them with
kindness, and the better youtreat them, the better the

(46:54):
quality of life is of theseanimals.
I don't think that's very youcan't really argue that but so I
feel like when you said youstruggle with that idea, and I
said that's good, because thatmeans you are the type of person
that will raise these animalsin a way that gives them amazing
welfare, that you will treatthem with respect throughout
their life, and for me, I thinkI still struggle, uh, with

(47:18):
putting animals down, especiallyeven if they're suffering and
stuff like that.
It's still something that Ifind very, very difficult, and I
always tell myself that I don'twant that feeling to go away,
because I think that's a signthat my compassion is starting
to slip, that become cold to theexperience that these animals
are feeling.
It's a very difficult part ofof the job as somebody who owns

(47:40):
a farm.
But I feel like that feeling issomething you need to hold on
to and always look for in thosesituations as a sign that you
are still compassionate forthese animals, and I think that
is necessary for these animalsto have a sign that you are
still compassionate for theseanimals and I think that is
necessary for these animals tohave a life that's worth living
is that they're treated withcompassion and with respect.
But what that forces the farmerto do and you talked about how

(48:03):
one of the things that youstruggle with is how much
separation there is between youand your food.
It's just a piece of meat on astore shelf and that lack of
respect, that lack ofappreciation for your food, is
part of the problem with theaverage diet.
You don't appreciate your food.

(48:24):
It's just a snack that you canshove in your mouth while you're
watching TV and you don'tappreciate the food.
You don't have that deeperconnection with what you're
eating and you can say it soundskind of hokey, but there is
actual research backing up.
If you sit down and have afamily meal and truly give
thanks for the food that you'reeating and you appreciate that
food, it actually is healthierfor you, which sounds insane,

(48:49):
but it's true.

I totally believe that.

Yeah, but it's true like I don't believe that,
yeah, like it's, it's been shownso then, uh, so then, like the,
the last point that youmentioned that I want to touch
on was like um, how do youreconcile that from a welfare
perspective if you have to killthese animals in order to eat
them?
And it's like you have to kindof go back and this is the
lessons that I was fortunate tolearn when I was younger and

(49:11):
that is the circle of life, andif you look at geometry a circle
, there's no beginning, no end.
So if you prevent the end ofthe life of a prey animal, well
then there's also no beginning,there is no life, and it's not
in the prey animal's bestinterest to not exist, that
you're not doing that animal anyfavors.
The animal wants to exist, itwants to experience life, it

(49:33):
wants to have a good life andthen, necessarily, for prey
animals, is at the end of theirlife, they'll get eaten one way
or another.
If they die in nature, they'llget eaten by the flies and the
scavengers and the maggots.
They'll get eaten one way oranother.
It's part of the reality ofbeing a prey animal.
But, with that being said, thebeautiful thing that we can do

(49:56):
on a well managed farm is thatwe can manage the last moments
of their life so that it has theleast amount of stress and the
least amount of sufferingpossible.
And that's what I wouldconsider humane slaughter.
A lot of people would disagreethat that's even a possibility.
They would consider that anoxymoron.
But if you're dealing with ananimal that has a choice between

(50:18):
it is a prey animal, it willget consumed or it won't exist,
what do you think is in the bestinterest of that animal?
It wants to exist, it wants tohave a good life, it wants to be
able to express its naturalbehaviors.
And then at the end of its life, if you can manage the end of
its life so that it has theleast amount of stress, the
least amount of sufferingpossible, you're giving that

(50:39):
prey animal the best life as awhole that it possibly could.
Because even if you look out innature and people used to
consider wild prey animals tohave a great life nature and
people used to consider wildprey animals to have a great
life.
They, if you compare that towhat is done through to humane
slaughter, there's far moresuffering.
That's unavoidable out in thewild.

(51:00):
Nature does not care how muchyou suffer.
It just, it is just.
Uh, it's just, it's ruthlesslyindifferent.
So that's unfortunate, butthat's something that we can
improve upon.
When we have a farm, we canlearn from nature, but just
because it's natural does notmean it's better.
So we don't need to chase downevery animal across the farm and

(51:22):
then start eating it while it'sstill alive.
That's not necessary.
We can improve on nature aswell, so we can do it in a more
humane way.
We can manage the last momentsof their life through all sorts
of different um aspects, uh,which I can get into if you'd
like.
There's something called templegrandin that has had, has had a
massive impact on the, the, thebusiness of, of, uh, of

(51:46):
slaughtering animals, and she'smade all sorts of improvements
and showing how these animalsactually go through the process
in a less stressed manner.
If you change the way that theslaughter house is set up, or if
you change the way you handlethem or or anything like that,
like, you can have huge impactson the quality of the of the of

(52:07):
the last moments of their life.
But like, and then also like ifyou compare your farmed prey
animals to your wild preyanimals, the last point I want
to make towards that is likefarmed prey.
Animals are very unique in thatthey've been bred over countless
generations to be calm aroundpeople.
They don't, and if you comparethat to a truly wild animal, as

(52:30):
soon as you come close to itthey have that level of anxiety.
They have basically a constantlevel of anxiety just to avoid
predation.
So they're always focused andaware of their environment too.
So it's something rustling inthe background that they're
alert and they can avoid gettingeaten.
And farm prey animals don't havethat instinct to the same

(52:50):
degree.
It's been bred out of them.
They've been bred to be able tobe relaxed around people.
They've done research in Russiawhere they're trying to
domesticate fox and what theydid is every generation of fox
they only selected for theirability to be calm around people
and that's the only thing theyselected for.

(53:10):
And, interestingly, the foxesthat they ended up with ended up
with almost more like dog-liketraits, with the droopy ears,
the wagging tail, stuff likethat.
But despite that, when youcompare the fox to a dog after I
don't even know how manygenerations there are that
they've been doing this now it'sstill not as calm around people
as a domestic kid dog.

(53:32):
It's like this.
This base level of anxiety isso deeply ingrained in these
animals that like that, likejust their average day will be
more stressful because they,they necessarily have that
background level of anxietygotcha.

Well, yeah, I appreciate kind of talking
through that, and just certainlyon my own note.
But I would encourage anyonelistening at this point who is a
meat eater to try not to losethe compassion around the
requirements of every time youdo eat meat.
The farming industry to thispoint has almost provided like a

(54:09):
safety buffer that, like the,the farmers or the slaughter
houses, they provide sort of themoral cushion and they sort of
eat that, that part of it forsociety, and I think it's made a
lot of people becomedisconnected, like you said, not
appreciative of what isrequired at every step of this

(54:30):
animal's life.
So just hoping to get moreappreciation around that and
hopefully that can maybeencourage people to move more
towards more humane farmingpractices such as yours, when
making those decisions withtheir food dollars.
Is there anything else you wantto add?

(54:50):
We're approaching two hours,which is kind of one of the
longer episodes we've done, butthis has been really, really
interesting for me.
So I appreciate all the timeand everything you've been able
to share, but is there anythingelse you want to share that we
haven't touched on yet?

The one thing that I always try to stress is
how much power the consumer hasin changing agriculture.
I always try to emphasize thatat the end of these kinds of
conversations.
I think I already did a prettygood job talking about that, but
how much power the consumerreally has in changing
agriculture just by casting yourvote, by deciding what you're
going to buy with yourconscientious food dollars.
Yep, it's a great point.

It's the best way we can make change.
Boycotts are a huge driver ofchange.
Uh, big companies do not likeit when they're not making money
.
Um, so what you decide to dowith your money, especially when
it comes to food, can make ahuge difference.
Uh, we're going to, we're goingto link to uh, your website,
your Instagram, your YouTube.
Make sure people can find you.
Um, and thank you so much forcoming on.

(55:49):
This is a really funconversation for me, for
somebody who's getting much morecurious and interested in the
regenerative agriculture spaceand the farming space, so I
really do appreciate all thetime and everything you've been
able to share with us.

It's an absolute pleasure.
I really enjoy these long formconversations.
I don't get much of anopportunity because with our own
social media, I usually getmore traction on the short
videos.
Attention span is not that verylong, so I don't get much of an
opportunity because, like withour own social media, I usually
get more traction on the shortvideos.
Uh, attention span is not thatvery long, so I don't get that
opportunity to really get deepinto these different topics.
So I really enjoy theopportunity just to dig deep and
really explain myself and myposition and, uh, and and and.

(56:23):
Like you, don't have thatopportunity with those short
form videos.

Yeah, me too.
That's why.
That's why I like podcasting.
The long form is very powerfulin concert and in coordination
with those short form videos.
To you know, short form's goodto get people's attention and
get people hooked on the verybasic premise of an idea, and
then something like this you canreally, really sink your teeth
into the nuance of regenerativeagriculture, the entire farming

(56:49):
industry.
So thanks again for spendingnearly two hours with us.
It's been a pleasure.
Hey, everyone, that's all fortoday's show.
I want to thank you so much forstopping by and watching,
especially if you've made it allthe way to this point.
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