Unveiling the Connection: Chronic Fatigue, Sleep Disorders, and Airway Health Insight with Greg McLean (Part 1)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Parker Condit (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome to Exploring Health
Macro to Micro.
I'm your host, parker Condit.
In this show, I interviewexperts from all areas of health
.
This can be in areas that youmight expect, like exercise,
nutrition and mental health,while other topics may be in
areas where you are lessfamiliar.
My guest today is Greg McLean.
Greg is the co-founder andco-owner of Premier Fitness
Systems, one of the topperformance gyms in the country.

(00:22):
He's also been named one ofGolf Digest's top 50 golf
fitness trainers in the countrymultiple times over the past
decade.
Premier Fitness Systems is alsothe gym where I trained out of
when I first moved down here toScottsdale, which is how I know
Greg.
With that being said, youprobably expect today's show to
be about fitness or training,but it's actually not.
We're going to be talking aboutGreg's personal journey to gain

(00:44):
back his life.
Over the past few years, he wasstruggling with debilitating
fatigue, brain fog and justdidn't have the energy to live
the life that he wanted.
He was getting a lot ofdisconnected non-answers from
many of his own healthcareproviders.
So, while doing a lot ofself-experimentation and
research on his own, that's howhe kind of figured out what was
going on the easiest way for meto describe what we talk about

(01:06):
today is to say we talk about alot of mouth stuff.
So many people probably don'tthink about their mouth much
outside of brushing their teethor going to the dentist.
But there's a lot more going on.
For example, your tongue shouldactually sit on the top of your
mouth and almost be suctionedup there, and that's the normal
resting position.
Your mouth and almost besuctioned up there, and that's

(01:27):
the normal resting position.
So if your mouth isn't bigenough for the tongue to kind of
sit comfortably and rest inthis position, you can end up
with a whole host of healthrelated issues.
So we kind of use Greg'sjourney as a roadmap to help
outline all of this, which Ithink will be probably a
somewhat unknown topic for a lotof people.
So if you've dealt withunexplained health issues where
healthcare providers can't evergive you a clear explanation and

(01:47):
interventions don't seem towork, then this will be a very
important episode for you.
It can get a bit dense, but Ido my best to help define a lot
of the terms that we go over andkind of bring the conversation
down to an approachable level.
There's also going to be a tonof resources in the show notes
to help guide people towardsnext steps.
This is a long episode so it'sgoing to be split into two parts
.
This will be part one and parttwo will be released later this

(02:11):
week.
So, without further delay,please enjoy part one of my
conversation with Greg McLean.
Greg, thanks so much for beinghere.
Just by way of backstory, weused to work together.
We worked together for a yearand a half two years.
I worked in your gym, pfsPremier Fitness Systems, which

(02:32):
is a great gym here inScottsdale, so I've kind of
given both of our personaltraining backgrounds.
Most people would probablyexpect that this is going to be
about fitness, but it's not.
We're going to be talking aboutmouth.
I described this episode asmouth things.
Um, understanding, I don't havethe language, but mouth, mouth
things.
Yeah, we'll talk about teethand palates and respiratory

(02:55):
conditions, um.
So anyway, greg, thanks forhaving me dude.

Greg McLean (02:59):
Yeah, I can't.
You're like dude, one of thesmartest dudes.
I know that, like you, likewormholes, I think equally as
much as I do.
And you're like where is theworld taking Parker lately?

Yeah, and to be fair, I was trying to prep for
this one.
I'm like there's going to.
I want to have a lot ofquestions, not only for myself
but, I think, to get kind ofwhat you like, the depth of
knowledge that you have to getit down to a really digestible
level for everyone listening.
But let's just start with kindof what symptoms you had been
experiencing, maybe from when wewere working together or even

(03:33):
prior to then, just to givepeople context and maybe also
give people a framework ofpeople who are dealing with
stuff and they aren't gettingsolutions or they aren't getting
answers that are actuallysolving the problem, and maybe
this conversation will sort ofopen open a new avenue of
exploration for them.

Yeah, for sure.
I guess for me it like startedin 07.
It was, like you know, I was 30years old and like, uh, dude,
girlfriend, we had just openedlifetime North Scottsdale.
I had, I think I did like 14deals of real estate that year
and I was supposed to be like,hey, living my best life.
And it was like the first timeI felt like something was wrong,

(04:12):
just started to feel like asensory slash, brain fog, and
dude went and got an MRI, justkind of.
They're like hey, you'rehealthy, blah, blah, blah,
you're good, nothing to worryabout.
And then it's just like dude,I've been through tons of stuff,
but like going back to likefive years where I was with you,

(04:33):
it had gotten to the pointwhere, like since 07, it just
progressively gotten worse.
I guess I started in the worldof like regular medicine and
then I got into functionalmedicine, I think, because, like
shortly after that stuff, I haddeveloped celiacs, so I wasn't
sure how much was related tojust what.
I didn't know, because backthen no one knew what the hell

(04:55):
gluten was.
Now everyone knows it's bad foryou, right?
And then it was like you know,I just played the whole
basically functional med route,blah, blah, blah, and then that
kind of all ended for me back inlike 18, where basically I'd
flown to Minnesota, I workedwith a really good doc, did all
kinds of brain testing stufflike that.

(05:16):
That kind of led nowhere.
And then I actually worked withDr Datis Karazi and out at
Carlsbad, karasi and out ofCarlsbad and that guy works with
tons of guys, all kinds ofbrain damage, all kinds of bad
car accidents, extreme sportsfrom concussions, brain gut, all

(05:37):
that stuff.
So he's got a few New YorkTimes thyroid, gut, brain.
Why isn't my brain working?
Stuff like that.
And he actually took me on as apatient and then he put me in
one of his seminars where it waslike gut brain and I think gave
me access to like 1000 doctorsfor a year and he basically
thought it was relative to likeeverything that I experienced
from brain fog, fatigue, waslike from a concussion I had,

(06:00):
basically from a fight I'dgotten into back when I was like
26, jaw broken, basically jawwired shut.
And then you know, basicallylike three years after is when I
started to experience some ofthis stuff.
And then you know, I went thatroute with him and he basically
thought it was all like CTErelative to the like, the

(06:20):
concussion and all that stuff,and I traded some of his
protocol it's like all thisstuff just for inflammation,
turmeric, resveratrol, all thatstuff to basically dampen the
response and I was like I thinkat first I was like, all right,
I'm going to go with this.
And then I was like you knowwhat?
I'm not going to have this bemy life.

(06:43):
And then so I started lookingfor other answers and that's
where I actually heard a podcastback in early 2019, dr Stephen
Lin, and it was basicallysomething about basically our
mouths not developing and then,as a result, what's happened to
our sleep, our breathing, ourhealth, all as a result.
And then randomly, I had aclient whose husband was a

(07:07):
functional dentist in Scottsdaleand I ended up talking to her
about it.
She's like, oh, you should gomeet my husband.
He's been doing this for like30 years and that's kind of like
where I started going down thewormhole, trying to really
understand like sleep, breathingand all that stuff.
And we'll get into that today.
I guess the second question youasked was any advice for people.

(07:29):
I think 2 things.
I think that if someone's everhad a concussion really bad
whiplash, especially ifsomeone's already predisposed to
mouth breathing.
It's like they don't haveinternal support, stability and
basically any high impact crashcheck in the boards tackle is

(07:51):
basically going to throw thisoff.
And the minute it gets thrownoff it's kind of like it takes a
long time years typically forlike the symptoms to start to
pop up.
But I think anyone that's beenin that world like seeing
someone that's like a functionaldentist that understands how to
rebalance everything.
Because if not, like theproprioception of what once was

(08:12):
neutral has now been changed andnow every day it registers as
not neutral and it hijacks yourbrain and it's only a matter of
time.
So that'd be like one piece ofadvice I would'd give, like
anyone that's been in that.
Or the second piece, likeanyone that has, I think, any
types of like autoimmune orstuff as far as like cognitive

(08:34):
all those things.
Is that like going to seesomeone that understands like
proprioception and occlusion andtmj, because basically, like we
don't get our cervical spineand our tmj joints balanced with
the occlusion it.
Tmj Because basically, like ifwe don't get our cervical spine
and our TMJ joints balanced withthe occlusion, it's like those
three form a triangle and if oneof them's off, the rest of them
are going to be off.
And then I mean, oftentimesthis neurological stuff just

(08:57):
comes from like our trigeminalnerve just being disgruntled
from.
You know, 50% of our sensoryand motor feedback to the brain
come from this one nerve andit's like if our occlusion or
jaw or cervical is off, likewe're just constantly getting
this kind of almost like adowned power line with a direct
feed into the brain.
And then I don't think peoplerealize that like there's a lot

(09:20):
there for symptoms that tend tobe erratic, they don't make
sense, and it's kind of likethere's a lot there, especially
all your neurological, all yourstuff like Tourette's,
parkinson's.
You start to look at all thesethings from a tics and occlusion
, vertical height of the teeth,molars, all that stuff.

(09:40):
And there's some crazy researchout there.

I can imagine.
So I don't want to bury peoplein vocabulary right off the bat,
but can you describe whatocclusion is, just so we can
kind of get that one defined andthen we'll move on to kind of
the next area.

So I would say, like occlusion would be just
kind of like how the feet, theteeth, fit together, and I think
you know just from marketingand braces I think we've been
taught that like that means theteeth need to be straight and
oftentimes, like the nervoussystem doesn't care.
Now, back in the day, they justmost of the time ended up there
because we did all the rightthings, whereas nowadays it's

(10:19):
almost like putting them in astraight jacket and bring them
there, which can be kind of oneof those things where people
don't understand, when theydon't wear their retainer, why
everything moves.
It's like, well, you werebrought into this occlusion that
the body isn't okay with andthat's like a whole nother story
.
But yeah.
So if I'm sitting here and Ilike try to touch my back teeth
together, or is there a good waythat people at home can like

(10:40):
just do something with theirteeth to understand, like, what
a a proper occlusion feels likeor improper I don't even know if
I'm describing those things theright way it'd be more like
this, like oftentimes, becausemost of our jaws did not develop
to full size and it's like wedon't even, like, I would say,
many people walk around becausethey lost the ability to breathe

(11:01):
through their nose, they'll cl,clench, and a lot of times,
like their bottom arch,especially like the back molars,
have never even fully eruptedbecause at some point they
couldn't support the weight ofthe head, they couldn't stay
nasal breathing and so theystarted clenching one to support
the weight of their head.
And then it's like basically allthe growth centers in the lower

(11:21):
jaw, like we were affected frombeing stuck in fight or flight
from I can't breathe through mynose, and then it's like people
just clenched and this is whereall this stuff can get thrown
off.
And this is where I've evenlearned in my own journey that
even in training it's likeeveryone's a functional trainer

(11:42):
but it's just like all right,there's levels to understanding
and it's like to me it was justa matter of like I'm going to
keep going until I find someonethat understands from a symptom
perspective.
And that's where, like the twobest TMJ docs I've ever heard in
the United States, like go intolooking for distinctions to
find help for myself was that,like these guys grow the back
bottom teeth myself was that,like these guys grow the back

(12:07):
bottom teeth because 90% of oursensory comes from that how the
back molars hit, from havingstability in the basically the
trigeminal nerve as well as,like from our occlusion.
And these guys both oftentimessay that for many people that
have issues with TMJ, it's likethey need to grow the back teeth
, meaning get the back bottommolars to fully erupt in order
to alleviate symptoms.

Okay, how does one do that?
How do you get teeth to growmore?

So basically they have like different devices or
they can use like braces withbands and it's basically like it
basically creates the situationin which, like the forces are
there, as if we're still growingto get the lower arch to fully
erupt.
It's pretty freaking cool?

Yeah, no, it sounds.
It sounds like it.
You touched on something whichis just so common in the US
healthcare system and it's alsolike, just based on a seven
minutes of conversation alreadypeople are probably
understanding oh, you really godeep into this stuff.
So how many doctors do youthink you had to go through?
And just describing the way youwent through it, it kind of

(13:12):
speaks to like the siloing issuethat we have in the US, where
most doctors can't reallycommunicate with each other in a
meaningful way, in the way thatpatient data moves from doctor
to doctor.
And then you know, how manydoctors do you need, just from
like the neck up.
You have a dentist, you haveENTs, you have neurologists.
There's so many just for abovethe neck.

(13:33):
So, like, how did you navigatethis other than just being like
so persistent in trying to kindof find a solution, because I'm
sure so many people go throughthis and they just they probably
just give up at some point.
They're like I know, I know howmuch you went through to some,
to some degree.
So if you can just describesort of like, uh, which types of

(13:55):
doctors you tried to go through, just to maybe give people an
idea of where they are and maybewhere they can go from here.

Yeah, like, I guess , like there's, I guess a lot of
it all comes back to, first ofall, just not really
understanding.
I've seen 50 dentists in mylife, right, and no one's ever
like.
Every one of them, when I was akid, was like, oh, you're a
mouth breather, but none of themtold me that my jaw was 30% to
40% smaller than it should beper se.

(14:22):
And then it's just like I gotto 44 years old and all of a
sudden it's like, dude, you havethe job like a five-year-old
kid.
And then my right nostril waspretty much all the way occluded
.
I'm like, yeah, no shit, I gothealth problems.
I can't breathe.
Yeah but which is kind of kindof foundational to life yeah,

(14:43):
they're like no doctor's likeyeah, you got a problem, let's
do something.
It was always like uh.
So I guess it's like uh.
There's the, I think, when wecan't nasal breathe, we can't
sleep.
So I think I realized after manydoctors that there's like
fatigue related to, basically, Ihave sleep disorder, breathing,

(15:05):
but if you have a sleepbreathing problem, you have a
breathing problem 24 hours a day, which is funny.
That, like cpaps, the goldstandard, it's like well, what
about the other 16 hours a day?
And then it's just like theother side of the fatigue, I
think, is like our occlusion andour nervous system being happy
and that's like balanced jointswith like teeth that work

(15:27):
optimally so our nervous systemdoesn't have to work so hard all
day long to make it all work.
And it's more like when ourteeth aren't the way they want,
we're not sending good signalsto the brain.
It's like we're actuallysending false information of
where we are in space all thetime, every day, all the day,
all the you know.
And then it's just like that'sjust like overdrive.

(15:48):
So I think there's like theairway side and then I think
there's like uh, like the tmjand like for me, like I sought
many doctors, but it was likeone that just did en an ent.
That was basically tonsils,adenoids, deviated septum, and

(16:09):
then it was kind of like thatguy was traditional medicine.
He didn't understand the wholelike palate expansion.
He actually made fun of it,even though my palate expander
did testing.
It hit college, which waspretty fun.
And then I flew to New York Cityand there was a really I think
he's like the godfather of UARS,this guy, dr Avram Gold.
You know he's basically beendoing sleep medicine for 40

(16:30):
years and he actually went withme to the surgeon there and
they've been doing this for like20 years and I'm like, you know
, I've never heard of this.
And he's like oh yeah, we'vebeen expanding adults for like
20 years.
And then he basically explainsthat to me.
And then I come back to arizonaand that's where, like, I found
a team to basically help mehere to do expansion.

(16:53):
But then it's just like afterthe fact it's like, well, if our
tongue can't fit in our palate,we can't support basically the,
just the nose from basicallythe nose basically actually
almost folds.
So it's like the palate foldsup and the nose closes.
So now, after all, this timeyou expand the palate, I can get
my.
But then I realized like Icouldn't get my tongue up there

(17:16):
and part of the reason it neverdevelops because I had a
posterior tongue tie.
So then it's like, all right,then you do some myofunctional
exercises, I figured out how toget my tongue up.
But then it's just like ifyou're, if your nose has always
been collapsed because you'vebeen a mouth breather, then it's
like the nasal valve, basicallykind of the end of your nose,
has always been compromised andthat's what you need to move
pressure in your nose.

(17:37):
So then it's like understanding, like these are all things like
teaching myself, like, and nowI understand that there's
definitely like an order as faras like how I would approach it.
But it was like I was like thisall to kind of figure out my
own stuff.

Yeah, I can imagine also, like not
necessarily coming from thatbackground You're kind of just
in a dark room with your eyesclosed and you're just reaching
out, trying to find, trying tonavigate your way through this,
and I feel like that's how mostpeople kind of think of the US
healthcare system.
I am going to want to come backat some point to maybe giving

(18:15):
people a list of questions thatthey could ask their dentist,
because you said you saw so manydifferent dentists and also
anyone listening to, just kindof give you context around this.
I follow a handful offunctional dentists on Instagram
and like they end up repostingyour stuff, so like this is not
necessarily like commonknowledge amongst dentists, so
like some of them are learningfrom you.
So that's why I really wantedto have you on here.

(18:36):
So let's kind of get to thepoint where you are now.
You've been dealing with thisfor a while, so like how are you
feeling now?
And?
And then we'll kind of go intolike what interventions you
actually went through.

Yeah, like, uh.
So I feel good.
Like the last 45 days, it'slike I feel like I finally found
like the linchpin of everythingwith, like finding a TMJ doc to
help me balance, and Iliterally feel like I started to
get my life back.
It's like my life force, myenergy.
It's almost like to think aboutsomething other than just

(19:11):
trying to figure out how to getthrough your day and then just
having something left over andthen like, oh my God, I can have
a life again.
What am I going to do?
Because it's been so many yearsthat, like I literally would
just come home, work and crash.
I mean, I've probably done moreoutside of work in the last two
weeks than I did all of lastyear outside of work, that's

(19:33):
crazy.

All right, so let's go into the actual like
interventions.
You already talked about kindof palate expansion.
Uh, is that where you startedintervention wise?

yeah.
So I actually started with.
It's called the like the vivosdna, so that's basically like uh
, it's basically non-surgical.
Basically you get an upper anda lower retainer and they
basically just kind of sit onyour teeth and you basically
just wear them to bed atnighttime and it's kind of one

(20:05):
of those things where it'ssupposed to be activate stem
cells on the palate and get yousome growth.
And that was something whereI'd basically worn it for like
20 months.
And this is where I started thiswhole journey and I didn't know
.
And what I know today is like,just, if someone is in dire need
of way more, I guess plumbingfrom the nasal perspective like

(20:31):
this is not going to get it done.
And I think oftentimes there'sthis dentist in our world sell
this because they can make moneyoff of it.
But it's not what I would tellmost people in need of like
nasal breathing to get, becauseit's like it.
Just it does a little, but notlike some other things.
And this is where I basicallyran this for like 20 months.

(20:55):
That's literally like I hadjust gotten back from New York
because I was like, all right,this isn't getting it done.
And that's when I went thereand this is where I found out
about Sarpy, which is basicallylike the surgically assisted
rapid palate expansion.
And that's basically where theygo in and they take your palate
and they basically like splitit down the middle and then
they'll basically palate andthey basically like split it

(21:16):
down the middle and then they'llbasically hit your, basically
your arches as well, and thenthey go in and basically put
like a can opener basicallyacross your back teeth.
So basically, yeah, like thiswas my expander and basically
you come out of surgery withlike basically two millimeters

(21:39):
wider and then literally overthe course of the next few
months kind of depend on yourcase they'll expand it and, dude
, that changed my life forever.
I literally like my airwaydoubled in size, like, but my
upper jaw was like 31millimeters, like like the
intermolar width it went to 42.

(22:00):
And like just total volume ofmy airway, like just 2X.
And the most important thing Iwould say is usually 70% to 80%
of the intermolar width increaseis basically going to be
increased in the.
Basically, the roof of themouth is the floor of the nose,
so 70% to 80% is going to beincreased in the.
Basically, the roof of themouth is the floor of the nose.

(22:20):
So eight, seventy to eightypercent is going to be increased
in width of the pipes.
And this is where, when youtalk about like the basically
flow and how it works with likea cylinder type thing, like you
know, you've got radius to thefourth power, so anything you
when I say my job basically went31 to 42, that's like only the
thickness of like 11 businesscards, which doesn't seem like

(22:42):
much in a conversation, but youknow the minute when it comes to
like flow and how we move air,it's like wow.

Yeah, no, I'm sure it's a lot.
So you mentioned earlier thatyou had the mouth size
approximately of a five year old, so maybe can you give context
around that as to anyone whodoesn't know what palate
expansion is.

and internal yeah, so like I really like uh.
So there's a dr kevin boyd.
He's a pediatric dentist out ofchicago and he basically said,
like a inner molar width isbasically going to be your first
molar in the upper jaw, likethe space in between, and so he
basically uses a rule like this,like he says, 24 millimeters
plus one millimeter for everyyear of age would be like, uh,

(23:22):
his kind of rule of thumb thatgets you to it like adulthood,
for for a healthy number.
And this is all going off of,uh, basically a dentist,
orthodontist, that he had donetons of research from the late
1800s, early 1900s, that did allthese kids between four and six
years old, and he startedexpanding these kids because he

(23:43):
realized by like six, if a kidwasn't 30 millimeters or larger
by six, it was basically goingto be a comorbidity.
This kid already had breathing,sleeping issues.
It was going to be basicallyrelated know, basically related
to their spine scoliosis, allthis stuff.
Optimal development was goingto be a hindering factor.

(24:04):
And I mean this guy is likeParis, french, chicago, late
1800s.
He was explainingfive-year-olds.
So it's not like this hasn'tbeen around.
You're like really.

Yeah.
So like where, where did thatget lost in that?
I don't know, maybe it is, Idon't.
I don't spend a lot of time inlike dentist circles, but yeah
is.
Is this not as common as itshould be?

yeah, it's like, uh , there's another, there's a
really good uh dentist out ofnew york.
He was basically like you knowit's it's not fair to say every
kid, but he's literally like 99%of kids today.
This guy, dr Ben Miragli, he'slike 99% of kids today are
underdeveloped, like it's everykid, like everyone is

(24:48):
underdeveloped.
So, like you know, you takethis 24 millimeters plus one
millimeter a year at age.
You basically need probablyroughly 36 to 37 to actually be
able to fit your tongue in theroof of your mouth.

Okay, and you were a 31.
Yeah, okay, so like that of aseven-year-old.
Yeah, what should have beenOkay.

And then, like I went to 42, but like basically
at 37, I can't fit the tongue inthe roof of the mouth.
So I am now left with basicallya tongue that doesn't fit in a
cage, that's too small and itends up sticking in my throat.
The other thing is I can'tsupport the weight of my head
over my midline because mytongue doesn't fit in my palate.
So then it's just like I'mstuck clenching my jaw for the

(25:32):
rest of my life, the cost ofbasically my spine health as
well as all my posture.
And then it's kind of like fromuh, I can't move my nap
technically because mypterygoids you know the muscles
in my mouth I can't get them tofree up because my tongue
doesn't fit my palate.
You know, I'm stuck in thisreally bad habit.

(25:55):
Just most people don'tunderstand the context of what
that means.

Yeah.
So for anyone listening, Ithink understanding the
relationship of where your headsits on top of your axial
skeleton is largely going todrive so much when it comes to
balance and overall posture ormaybe not posture but position
of how you navigate the worldand a lot of that.
So much of that is driven fromkind of tongue, position and

(26:21):
palate.
So if you think about thesethings from a very extreme
example, if you just jut yourhead forward all day, you're
going to feel yourself needingto compensate in certain ways to
hold that sucker in place.
So obviously you get a.
That's a very extreme example.
But what you're dealing with, orwhat a lot of people were
probably dealing with, issomething that may not be
visibly noticeable all the time,but you're doing it all day for

(26:44):
years.
So that's why you get sort ofthis compounding effect over
time, which is incrediblydetrimental to exactly what
you've been speaking of.
You were talking about mostkids nowadays needing expansion.
What do you think has beendriving that?
I have theories, but do youknow what environmental factors

(27:08):
or lifestyle factors there arethat are driving the
underdevelopment of children'sjaws nowadays?

I mean I guess I would say like a few things.
It's one like there's nothingbetter from like, basically, the
bioidentical fit of like breastmilk and like I always, when I
always get into likebreastfeeding, I talk about like
performance, like if I'm tryingto get your kid to the best pro
athlete status by age three,I'm going to basically because I

(27:35):
think like a lot of moms, likethey're like oh you know,
shaming moms that can't or don'twant to, and it's just like I'm
just talking from a pureoptimal development, like
nowadays that's very important.
I think it's like getting repsand I think oftentimes people
don't understand that like whenyou breastfeed, you get
basically you seal the palateand the way that happens is like

(27:56):
your anterior, your hard palate, your soft palate, like seal,
like caves.
This is where we actually getthe pressure strategy, like the
fact that you have to uncouplefrom a boob if your mouth is
kind of like a fuselage, whereas, like with a bottle, that's not
the case.
So, although it may seem thesame, the physics isn't the same
, like the fluids of the physicsisn't the same like the fluids

(28:17):
of the physics isn't.
And then, as a result, it'slike that pressure strategy is
the very essence of how we startto set the stage for nasal
breathing.
So I mean, I think that's thebiggest thing is like the reps.
And then I think that there's afew other things I think you
have generationally right, wehave moms that little by little

(28:40):
it's like the food quality, soit's like we're not as robust
our bones.
It's like the very essence ofgetting optimal epigenetic
signaling from our foods.
You know we fill a lot of ourdiet now with stuff that doesn't
do that.
And then I think it's like theweaning process, where kids are
no longer given food that reallymakes them work and stimulate

(29:03):
the jaw from a forced productionstandpoint.
We're given all these soft mushgoo, all that stuff and it's
kind of like that didn't exist.
So then it's just kind of liketo breastfeed for longer and
then getting kids to really doit the right way with really
working hard.
The minute we kind of bring theminto the weaning world to

(29:25):
really challenge all thosethings.
An all-time high from anenvironmental stuff.
Right, you've got all theseallergies and kids are stuck
inside.
So then it's just like thesekids almost need to get
everything right and can'tafford for anything to go wrong

(29:46):
long enough that switches themfrom nasal breathing to mouth
breathing.
And then the biggest thing I'veseen in this because I've
probably 300 to 400 people thatI've measured their, their jaw
like inner molar width, is likejust just surveying people and a
big part of it is likeliterally your genetic line.

that's huge yeah, a lot of it, I'm sure, is out
of control.
My guess was going to bebreastfeeding as a primary
driving factor.
Um, I'm trying to interview dr.
Uh, what's her name?
Mandeep johal.
Okay, I can't up in canada.
Do you know her personally?
I don't know her personally,but I like know of her.
Okay, dr, what's her name?
Mandeep Johal, okay, I can't.
I've been candid.
Do you know her personally?

I don't know her personally, but I like know of
her.

Okay, yeah, she's reposited at least a few of
your things up until this point,but she does a lot of tongue
ties.
Did you see that article thatwas in the New York times about
children's tongue ties?
Do you want to talk about that?
I'm trying to think like what Iwrote up about it.

(30:42):
It's like um, I'll give alittle backstory.
So there was an article the NewYork times was like, uh,
pointing out there are somefunctional dentists out there
who are doing a lot of tonguetie surgeries on kids.
I think it's probably amoneymaker and there are
probably some bad players in theindustry, but it was from what
I remember of it.
It did not.
It was not framed in a goodenough light, probably written

(31:12):
by somebody who doesn'tunderstand all the stuff that
we're talking about well enoughto really do that article
justice.
But it was.
It was kind of shamingfunctional dentists on doing too
many, uh, tongue tie surgerieson kids.

So I'll let you explain what you want to around
that and I think, like there's afew things, like one I think
they ripped on a few like badseeds with some really shady
stuff and you're like yeah,that's shady, like let's not
call everyone that and like yeah, you find that anywhere, in any
industry no, I think there'slike.
I think the one thing I've seenin medicine is, the more I talk

(31:41):
to most docs, it's like theydon't really understand the
global effect of whatever it isthey do on the system.
You know they'll like tounderstand their pocket and kind
of like, hey, this matters, butthey don't really understand.
Like you know, if 60%, 70% ofyour cranial facial development
is going to happen by four yearsold and your tongue is the plow

(32:01):
in which it's going to driveyour field to grow the way you
want it to, that thing better beworking and we're not waiting.
And you should understand whenit's working, when it's not,
when we might have a problem andthen it's like all right, it's
probably not going to fix itself, which is, you know, these are
all the things like, and I thinkoftentimes in medicine we have

(32:22):
a lot of people that like maybethey don't know.
Like I had a myofunctionaltherapist for six months and I
was like I can't make the cavesmovement and then I was like I'm
going to go looking for answersbecause they're missing it.
And then I was like I literallyprobably Dr Soroush Doggy at
the Breathe Institute in LA.
They're probably the best in theworld at educating people,

(32:43):
doctors, practitioners on themyoside, the tongue tie release
and it's basically like it'snever an all or nothing, it's
just a perspective.
And then it's like he'sbasically got these normative
ranges.
And then it's just like, allright, if you're not in the
normative range, like how offare you?
And then it's like, is it hardto tell or is it extreme?

(33:06):
And then it's just like I thinkthat's the case, right, people
are really good at the extreme.
And then they're like or theydon't really know, like the gray

(33:31):
area, like when to take action.
And this is where I've toldpeople like get on a plane
because, like you're two orthree year old, like for the's
just wait.
And it's like there'sdefinitely those that are
leading where the science isgoing.
And it's like not to shame,it's just more like they just
they went there earlier in theircareer and they have more
experience around it and justget some good perspective.

(33:51):
Like, but just, whatever you do, just don't sit on your kid's
development at the cost ofwhatever might happen.

Yeah, it's kind of wild.
I don't know what theexperience is for my parents,
but when I was growing up andgoing to the dentist, all I ever
heard was just brush and floss.
That was the only conversationthat I've ever had.
I think I'm lucky and I have awide palate, but I don't know if
these conversations have beenoccurring or if they're

(34:19):
happening now.
My guess would be probably not,maybe more in the orthodontic
realm, but again, I don't knowif it's happening to a robust
enough degree to kind of accountfor all the things that you
were discussing.

Yeah, and it's just like, dude, I talked to moms
all over the world like everyday and it's just like, just I
think you've got these moms thatare like hyper aware now and
there's not.
It's like what I've seen onlineand some of these best doctors
is not down the street for mostpeople.
Therefore, like that's thehardest thing and it's like you

(34:53):
know these moms.
So like, start using words likeperfect.
I want my kid to be perfect.
I'm like, oh god, we're introuble, but it's just a matter
of like you know he's mom.
So like, start using words likeperfect, I want my kid to be
perfect.
I'm like, oh God, we're introuble, but it's just a matter
of like you know, just likebeing realistic and then
understanding like all right,like there are good people to go
see it.
Just understanding like whothose are and when is it a good
time to go see them.

Okay, so let's bring it back to breathing.
Uh, cause this should berelatable for a lot of people.
Can you just go into the basicsof mouth breathing versus nose
breathing, not necessarily likethe mechanism of it, but just
the benefits of one versus thedrawbacks of the other?

Yeah, I would say like just the two most important
things I think from an overallis one just breathing.
All comes back to just optimal,like our primary, basically
nutrient for our body is oxygenand it's kind of one of those
things where if we can't nasalbreathe and slow things down, we

(35:49):
just don't utilize all theoxygen we have in our blood.
So oftentimes modern day peoplestress everything, like we tend
to basically over breathe andwe end up not getting like the
biggest effect, which is likejust the calming side of our
nervous system with a sloweddown breathing.
And so for many of us, you knowwe tend to upper chest breathe.

(36:14):
Part of that is a result oflike posture.
The other part of it is likejust just kind of how we've
developed and like it's.
It's it's normal in society, butoftentimes, like most of us
don't use our diaphragm so weend up like not getting all the
air out and then therefore wecan't really fill breath.

(36:37):
So if you think of like even ifI was wearing a snorkel in the
water right, and then it's likeI breathe out, it's like between
my mouth and the air, it's likeall that is filled, but it's
just like I can't really usethat.
And it's like the same thingwith our lungs.
We have a lot of this,basically dead space, and so
essentially we can't stay nasalbreathing during our deepest

(37:01):
levels of sleep.
We just get robbed as far asthe architecture of our sleep,

(37:22):
so it's just like the qualityjust significantly goes down.
And this is where I think thebiggest thing is like sleep was
our greatest resource tobasically bring inflammation
down, to give us like a cleanstart the next day.
And it's like if we can't counton that, if we ever get sick,
our body gets run down.
We we have lost the mechanismin which we can recover.

(37:45):
And then it's just like many ofus just end up burning out our
immune systems at the cost oflike just not being healthy
anymore.

I used to know this stuff so well, so I'm going
to be framing things likequestions.
So please just confirm or deny.
So nasal breathing providesmore resistance because there's
just more as you've beendescribing it like plumbing to
go through kind of in the mouth.
It's just like a short straightshot.
But that's actually abeneficial thing.
So you have multiple layers offiltration.
It also warms the air as itkind of goes in.

(38:16):
So it's, I think, the you canget better absorption that's not
the right physiologic term inthe lungs when the air coming in
is a better or warmertemperature.
But also like the resistancethat's provided through nasal
breathing, I think again I don'tremember this anymore, but I'm
just kind of going by logic itwould make your respiratory

(38:37):
muscles stronger.
So the intercostals, which sortof expand the rib cage, and the
diaphragm, which is this domeshaped muscle sort of at the
connecting to the bottom of therib cage, I'd assume nasal
breathing, because of the extraresistance, improves the
strength of those muscles.
Does that all sound right?

Yeah, and then I think the other big thing is
just the nitric oxide that weget only when we nasal breathe
and then what that does to allowus to utilize more of the
oxygen, and then it's kind oflike nature's blood pressure
medicine to help slow down ournervous system.
I think that and fight off likefrom an immune system
perspective.

Right.
So nitrogen dioxide is avasodilator, which means it sort
of expands the blood vessels.
It, if you will, because it'sone of the only things
physiologically that we cancontrol.
That's both voluntary andinvoluntary, which is very
clever and lucky that we can dothat so we don't have to be like
dolphins, where we just switchoff half of our brain while the
other half sleeps.
We can actually sleep, but forthe people who can't nasal

(39:58):
breathe, at least effectively,you're going to lose the ability
to sort of manually shiftyourself into a different state.
So we can talk sympathetic,parasympathetic if you want to,
but it's more like if you'restressed, if you feel anxious
and you feel like you're in ahighly energized state, nasal
breathing is going to be such agood avenue to get you to more

(40:18):
of a downregulated, relaxedstate.
So if you don't have thephysical capability to do that,
you're going to be missing a lotfrom, you know, the ability to
kind of control yourself andyour nervous system.
Did you have anything you wantto add on sort of the the
benefits of nasal breathing,which could probably be its own
episode?

uh, the one thing like that always stood out to me
is my business partner, brandonharris, like into meditation,
breathwork and stuff, and hewould always say stuff to me
about just breathing through thenose and I read something one
time.
That's basically like me,someone that has basically the
inability to do it all day long.
And then working on meditationis kind of like trying to put a

(41:00):
kitchen fire out when your houseis on fire.
It's kind of like trying to puta kitchen fire out when your
house is on fire, like if youdon't fix the overall problem,
but like the biggest thing Iwould say is like this is like
the minute I expand in my palate, like I just inherently feel so
much more calm.
Like my whole life.
I just felt like I had thisnervous energy to my personality

(41:22):
and it's like now it's like uh,uh, I can't even explain.
I just feel different in my ownbody and it's often like
understanding that piece of it.
Now, like how many people'spersonality is just a reflection
of a dysregulated nervoussystem, all because they can't
breathe?

it's like just yeah, it's yeah, like I don't
want to say it's likereductionist to bring it down to
that but it being able tobreathe is such a foundational
thing to just being able to livelike a good life where if you
can't do it effectively, it'sjust going to kind of drag
everything else down.
Um, so we we talked abouttongue ties.

(42:00):
Did you get it?
Did you get a tongue tierelease or did you just do
myofunctional therapy to kind ofget the tongue into position?

so I did the myofunctional.
So I february 2022, I had mypalate expansion and then last
january I had been doingmyofunctional for six months and
that's when I actually flew outto see dr zaggy and he did the
posterior tongue tie release andthat was something where he

(42:27):
basically added like acentimeter in length to my
tongue and it was like that wasdramatic in the sense of like to
improve the very mechanicsinside my mouth and to like,
feel it instantly, like oh,because up until that point I
could never.
I could never get my tongue onmy palate one because it was

(42:51):
like just too small.
And then I expanded my jaw andthen it like I could get the tip
but not the back, and then it'slike to then have the space and
then release.
It was kind of like someonegave me a bigger cage and a
longer leash and it was likethis is awesome, right.

Yeah, so can you?
Can you just describe, like,where the tongue is supposed to
sit?
Um, for anyone who's like, uh,hopefully at home, maybe
listening and be like I don't alot of people probably don't
have good tongue awareness oflike what their tongue is kind
of doing in their mouththroughout the day.

Makes me think of my mom, like trying to teach her
kind of do it in their mouththroughout the day, makes me
think of my mom like trying toteach her and she's like what,
what am I doing?
But I would say like this like,basically, as far as the your
tongue wants to sit, basicallylike a millimeter or two behind
basically the back teeth, in anoptimal situation for some
people that, like their jaw isnot quite big enough, it might
touch the teeth, but optimally,if it sat out there all day long

(43:43):
, it's going to push your teethoutward, which isn't good for
the occlusion, but optimally itwould basically sit basically a
millimeter or two back and thenit's just like the tip of the
tongue is going to sit there andthen it's going to follow all
the way along the hard palateinto the soft palate.
And biggest thing I say for alot of people that haven't had a
hard time with this is like,think of, like, if this is

(44:04):
basically my tongue here, likeif I put like a dime in the back
of my tongue, I want tobasically think about like I'm
basically trying to stamp it upthrough my palate so that
basically the tongue isbasically going to sit just
behind the front teeth and thenthen I want to push up and then
basically, if I was to swallowonce or twice, that's what

(44:27):
basically like vacuum seals thepalate and you basically have
two small caves like theanterior posterior and that
anterior posterior like caves.
That sits there, one protectsyour airway and then that is the
stability for our stomaticnaphthic system because it's not
going anywhere, and thenbasically everything from a

(44:48):
sensory perspective sits rightbehind the nose.
Off of that, from a temperature, vision, hearing, all that
stuff.
So now I have a stableenvironment in which to take in
all my sensory to get it right,kind of thing.

So I've known this for years, that your tongue
is supposed to sit on the roofof your mouth, and it still
doesn't totally make sense to me.
I'm like, but gravity would sayotherwise.
So if anyone's thinking, kindof thinking, that I still think
that and I've kind of known the,the, the, the mechanisms behind
this for a few years, so to meit still doesn't make sense, but
I understand, that's where it'ssupposed to go.
Yeah, that's where it'ssupposed to go, yeah, so I

(45:27):
appreciate the explanation.
Um, all right, so where are wein your like, intervention
journey, bowel expansion,posterior tongue tie release?
Um, can maybe, maybe you gointo start describing, like, the
myofunctional therapy exercisesyou were doing, just so people
have an idea of what those areyeah, I think like this is like
especially for moms, like earlyon.

I think this is like important Worst case
scenario.
You can go online, like theBreed Institute they have people
, especially people in othercountries or people you're
listening to that just live intowns that they don't have
access the fact that you can dothis now online, you can do this

(46:06):
now online.
But I think this is one of thebest things because, regardless
of like a kid having a goodenough size palate or not, like
just teaching your child goodoral posture and function early
on can be like a game changer,whether they do expansion or you
just want to help your kid.
But I think this personoftentimes is in this world and
has a good understanding of likeoftentimes is in this world and
has a good understanding oflike does a kid have issues,

(46:33):
like maybe they should getexpansion, maybe they should do
this, but like oftentimes like agood myofunctional therapist,
like understands that and couldat least guide parents,
especially as a first line ofattack for those like I don't
know what to do, kind of thing.
But from an exercise it's likeit starts with an assessment,
you know, looking at the tongue,does it have full function?
And then it's kind ofoftentimes, you know, just
living into any bad postureoftentimes will compensate.

(46:56):
So it's kind of meeting theclient wherever they are from,
what are they working with?
And then it's like, okay, howare we going to improve this?
Or if a child or, like myself,has a tongue tie, it's like,
what are the compensations I'vemade?
And then let's prepare the bodyto be in a good place so that
if you are to do a release,you're going to get the most out

(47:19):
of it.
And I think of it as like astickiness as far as people
having the ability to keep it,because I think, you know,
there's many times where, like,the tongue tie served a purpose
as part of our development, andI think that's the other thing
that people don't understand.
Like it's a form of stabilityfor the human body, so at some

(47:39):
point we don't want to just goin and cut it, and it's like
oftentimes the body is relyingon that.
So understanding like we wantto get the body in a good place
to be able to be without it.
And we talk about like aneutral position, you know,
getting the body in a goodposition where everything is
kind of neutral and balanced toallow for kind of lasting change

(48:04):
as well.

I think is really important how does mewing tie
into this?
That's one of the only wordsthat I've seen a lot in that
space.
Can you describe what mewing is?

yeah, like mewing is basically like a lingual
palatal suction, where youbasically push the tongue up on
the palate and you're like it'sbasically like you're doing
bicep curls, yeah, so it'sbasically like an isometric like
, depending on.
So there's a lot of people outthere and it's like I think

(48:33):
there's a lot of people outthere that don't understand that
.
I've heard some other peoplethat don't understand.
They put together like thisfollowing that it's like what is
going on here.
So it's like it's it's like mymom going on youtube and
figuring out what exercises sheshould do for her fitness.
It's like she, so it's kind ofyeah, but it's like so, like one

(48:54):
, I think there's like the dude,mike mu is brilliant man.
So it's kind of more like it'sall case sensitive.
So people, people understanding,like where does that fit?
I think sometimes people it'slike I don't care if you mu for
an hour, you go and do bicepcurls for an hour tomorrow If
you haven't been in the gym.
Like did you really think thatwas going to end?
Well, it's like the same typeof thing.

(49:14):
Or I think these people arebuying these programs and it's
like I want to chisel jaw injust three weeks and it like
dude.
It doesn't work that way, and ifyour body's not equipped to be
able to handle that, are you,you know?
Are you pissing off the TMJjoints, do you got headaches, do
you got all kinds of stuff?
But like, basically it's thetongue pushes up into the palate
and then you're basicallygetting like a swallow a few

(49:38):
times and you're basically justkind of driving up into it.
It's like, like you said, it'san isometric where nothing's
really moving, but you'reholding tension and you're
basically just reinforcing theoptimal tongue posture for our
development or just for normal,just like this, just sitting to
hold space in your airway tokeep everything good to go.

Okay, so I can imagine that being beneficial if
it's the right intervention.
But imagine that beingbeneficial if it's the right
intervention, but if it's, ifit's the incorrect intervention,
it could just be driving, uhlike further dysfunction, if you
will.
Hey everyone, that's all fortoday's show.
I want to thank you so much forstopping by and watching,
especially if you've made it allthe way to this point.
If you'd like to be notifiedwhen new episodes are going to

(50:22):
be released, feel free tosubscribe and make sure you hit
the bell button as well.
To learn more about today'sguest, feel free to look in the
description.
You can also visit the podcastwebsite, which is
exploringhealthpodcastcom.
That website will also belinked in the description.
As always, likes, shares,comments are a huge help to me
and to this channel and to theshow, so any of that you can do

(50:43):
I would really appreciate.
And again, thank you so muchfor watching.
I'll see you next time.

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