Unveiling the Connection: Chronic Fatigue, Sleep Disorders, and Airway Health Insight with Greg McLean (Part 2)

Episode Transcript
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Parker Condit (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome to Exploring Health
Macro to Micro.
I'm your host, parker Condon.
This is part two of the episodewith Greg McLean.
This picks up right in themiddle of the conversation, so
if you haven't already, pleasego back and listen to part one,
which includes the fullintroduction and background for
Greg.
So, without further ado, pleaseenjoy part two of my
conversation with Greg McLean.

Greg McLean (00:26):
So can you describe TMJ?
Yeah, so, like the TM joints,basically temporal mandibular
joints.
We basically have them on eachside.
Basically it's going to be thejoint responsible for basically
our mandible kind of moving,chewing, doing life, but
oftentimes basically our teethare going to dictate what

(00:51):
happens to things.
So it's like if we developed,we can't breathe through our
nose, our tongue comes down.
This is where they found out inthe late 70s, early 80s, like
Harvold did all these studieswith, like they plugged all
these chimpanzees and recessedmonkeys noses with silicone to
see what happened when peoplestopped nasal breathing.

(01:11):
And basically what we saw waslike every different kind of
malocclusion.
Basically, the body is smart.
The minute I can't move air tonasal breathe, my tongue's
coming down to act as akickstand to open my mouth
because I need to breathe.
That's ultimate hierarchy inlife and the compensation for

(01:32):
each monkey was all over theboard relative to just
environment, development, allthat stuff.
And so, as a result, when wecan't nasal breathe and we're
mouth breathing, it's like ourocclusion is going to get thrown
off, because it's like my upperand lower jaw are basically
like two halves of a basketball.
I basically want them to stacknicely over each other.

(01:53):
And the minute I can't holdthat posture because the forces
inside aren't balanced to keepthe outside forces, then it's
kind of like everything getsthrown off.
It's like the scoliosis of yourfreaking mouth and then it's
just kind of like your jointsthat want to be balanced.
They can only stay neutral andbalanced the minute I literally

(02:16):
kind of have the two halves overeach other.
These joints can't be balancedanymore.
And when they get thrown off,then it's kind of like my
occlusion, the way I bite.
Everything is like this skewed,torqued version.
And then oftentimes, as we'redeveloping, our teeth continue
down this path and then it'slike we can't ever get our

(02:37):
joints back to a balanced placebecause the teeth don't fit in
such a way that we can do that.

All right.
So can you describe how that'sgoing to relate to posture?
Cause you know, my kid wasalways hammering this Like you
can't just change somebody'shead position and say they're in
a better posture, um, butthere's a lot of like really bad
posture advice out there whichis like oh, sit up straight,
shoulders back and down, uh, canyou speak to how?
If you can't breathe, that'sbad advice, can?

you speak to how if you can't breathe, that's bad
advice.
What is?

bad advice, Saying like, oh, if you have a
forward head position that's badposture, so just pull your head
back.
Now you're in good posture.
But I think kind of describingwhat you were just going through
, Whereas if you yeah, you cansit in what visually looks like
good posture, but the second youstop paying attention and in

(03:28):
this position you can't nasalbreathe.
You're going to shoot backforward and the jaw is going to
drop down so you can open upyour gullet so you can breathe
again.
So I think a lot of the postureadvice is misinformed.

But if you want to expand on any of that, feel free
to yeah, like I think like thefirst part is like if we can't
support the, basically thepalate, because the tongue
doesn't fit, our head's going tocome forward and we're going to
extend.
So the last thing I want to dois shoot my head back because
I'm essentially going to shutdown my airway.
That's like just yeah, straightup.
So it's like I think peopledon't understand that, like the

(04:02):
minute, like this isn't balancedand my head comes forward, it's
like it's got a top down effect, kind of like a puppet, where
it's like the minute this getsoff, it's like a secondary force
to gravity and then oftentimes,when you've lived into that
long enough, like those patternsbias everything in the body and

(04:22):
then it's just like to get thatback online is some serious
work.
So like, therefore, it's likeeven best case scenario for a
lot of these, especially like Ithink up like ideals.
Like 20 to 45 year old womentend to be like 80 to 90 percent
of people with tmj issues, neckproblems, and part of it is

(04:43):
that like they can't support thehead properly and then we've
got like basically, like thisribs and pelvis that are flared
out because the head doesn't sitover the midline.
So the best case for some ofthese people, at least prior to
getting interventions done, islike at least training from the

(05:04):
bottom up to kind of get thingsin the most mechanical and
advantageous posture as possible, to at least help support as
much as possible.

Do you have an example of what that looks like?
Training from the bottom up?

So it'd be even like a, like a 90, 90 where,
like someone lays on their backright.
So especially for someone thatcan't support the weight of
their head, we want to use thefloor because it's going to help
.
Basically I can push into thefloor Like I'd lay on my back,
my feet would be up on a walland maybe I'd put like a
dodgeball between my knees, myknees at 90 degrees, and then
this is oftentimes where we can.
We basically have now groundedthe feet, so I basically have a

(05:58):
hard surface in which for themto find stability.
And now it's like teaching themhow to basically feel their
pelvis where it is in space, andthem to stack the ribs and
pelvis so that they can kind ofget their body basically at
least when they're on the floor,start to find access to their
diaphragm and their pelvis andribs stacking, and then

(06:20):
something like that they coulduse as a foundational, little by
little be able to get off thefloor and then get out of neck
pain at least while they'retrying to get some good help.

So people who are going to have that sort of like
a palate or mouth presentation,are they going to be able to
have trouble producingintra-abdominal pressure?

yeah, and it's oftentimes like the forward head
like sets the stage for thedomino effect, basically like
all the way down that likeposturally everything gets out
of line and then it's almostlike this secondary force to
gravity and then it's just likeit's almost like the muscles
have lived in such a bad posturefor long enough that it's hard
to actually get them back tothis basically position where

(07:07):
the ribs, pelvis kind of work asa team and then they actually
have access, because if I can'tbasically find the pelvis
underneath me, I'm not going tohave good access to my diaphragm
.
And this is where just kind ofteaching someone like you know
the ribs and the pelvis isbasically like a corset effect,
like back in the 1800s westernmovie.

(07:27):
It's like it's basically likethis internal sports bra that
basically holds ribs and pelvistogether so that I can kind of
get the piston effect of mybasically ribs right.

So if people listening, um, you have your
thoracic diaphragm that'susually what people think about
when you're talking aboutbreathing and then you also have
your pelvic floor.
Those two should be working inconcert when you're breathing,
so when you're inhaling, both ofthem should be kind of
descending.
So your thoracic diaphragm sortof pushes stuff down and your
pelvic floor also needs todescend, because as you push the

(08:01):
thoracic diaphragm down, youhave stuff here and that needs
to go somewhere.
So you need to open up thatspace for it to go down.
But kind of what you'redescribing is a pelvis that's
going to be sort of tiltedforward.
So the diaphragm may or may notbe moving as well as it should
be.
Yeah, okay.

Yeah, we just basically lost our good
anchorage point.

Yep, yeah, so again.
Uh, for anyone who's listeningabout, like, we're just talking
about mouth stuff, but a lot ofit starts here and you get a
cascading effect going down thesystem as well.
And the question earlier tokind of bring that down to a
more grounded level, when I saidare people with this

(08:45):
presentation going and havetrouble producing
intra-abdominal pressure?
Um, you're going to havetrouble producing that pressure
when the diaphragms aren'tworking together, basically when
the rib cage isn't properlystacked over the pelvis and then
again the head isn't properlystacked over the rib cage as
well.
So there's sort of this, uh,this, these tiered effects where

(09:10):
things work really well whenthey're all aligned, um, and not
so well when they're notExactly.
Um, trying to think where totake this now.
Did you have any otherinterventions besides the ones?

I guess, uh, yeah, like I think the one that's
really awesome is, uh, reallyawesome is there's a procedure
called the nasal valve but thebasically repair and it's called
the Viver and they basicallytake like a resonance wand that
like heats up and basically likeit's non-surgical, probably
took like it probably tooklonger to numb the nose than for

(09:42):
the actual treatment and theybasically go in and hold spots
inside your nose, almost likethey're kind of banging out like
dents in a car, and thenbasically what it does is it's
got like a holding effect forlike five to seven years, but
it's basically remolding a nasalvalve that's lost.
It's like imagine someonecrushed your hose in your

(10:03):
backyard.
Valve that's lost.
It's like imagine someonecrushed your hose in your
backyard.
It's like someone basicallywent and banged it out to kind
of give it back its integrity.
Because like that's going to bethe number one factor Even if
you fix someone's palate, if youhaven't basically reopened the
nasal valve, people can't movepressure to switch to nasal
breathing.

Any others.

That's it for now.

Okay, so we're an hour in.
That's, that's all you, that'sall you've done at this point,
okay, um, so which one of thesehad the biggest effect for your
sleep?
Cause I do want to kind ofstart diving into sleep and some
of the sleep related um,symptoms and disorders.
But like, at which stage orwhat do you think it was
cumulative, or was there onewhere I was like, oh, this had a

(10:49):
big effect?

you know what like it's?
Uh, I think the the palateexpansion was huge from like
just giving me literally thesarpy from, but then it was kind
of like one of those thingswhere this is where I actually
learned that that there'sfatigue outside of the whole

(11:13):
breathing, sleep apnea.
This is like relative to anervous system that's got like
joints in an occlusion that'snot balanced and not happy.
So when I I got into this, Ithought like yes, like I have
the job of a five-year-old, likeI can't breathe, I can't sleep
well.
And then it's like I didn'tunderstand until I had gone

(11:36):
through all that stuff that likenow I can breathe, amazing.
But like that was a componentof my fatigue.
But from my brain fog andfatigue perspective, which has
been my biggest two symptoms forthe last five years, like every
day debilitating that like thislast treatment is what really
started to change that.

Okay, can you describe the mechanisms between
that and maybe just describe,like, how the different fatigues
feel?

Yeah, yeah, I guess it's like even my doctor now is
like how would you say you feel?
And I'm like I haven't woken upfeeling good in so many years,
ever, ever, not one day that Ijust always felt like I had been

(12:25):
drinking for a week straightand then just seriously hung
over every day.
And then it's like some dayswere really, really bad, like I
can't keep my car in the lineswhen I drive to work to.
I think I'm driving the wrongway in a freaking parking lot.
And then it's just like thislast few weeks it's like I

(12:47):
literally I dream every nightand then it's like to oh wow,
like I wake up and like I justfeel like, uh huh, I don't feel
like death okay, so yeah, that'sa.

That's a good description.
Um, all right, so the, thepalate expansion that that
helped with, probably the sleep.
So can you describe sort of the, what I guess you're describing
as like nervous system fatigue,and where and where you, where
you think that's coming from?

So this is where I like I've learned, just like all
the research between like Ronthat started, pri, like
understanding, like freedom ofthe mandible and then basically
like there's this whole otherscience to long-term nervous
system health, and it comesthrough occlusion.
I think oftentimes it's likeour teeth are the very essence
of, like the circuit which runsour brain and like the minute

(13:43):
our occlusion is off and ourjoints are imbalanced or we
grind down our teeth to wherethe height is off, it's like we
have all these sensors in ourjaw and just all of our
proprioception comes frombasically our TMJ joints, our
occlusion and our cervicalvertebrae.
And if those three are notbalanced, it's like all the

(14:05):
intel we're taking in all daylong tends to be off and then
it's just like we have tocompensate.
So it's like we don't knowwhere we.
They've done tons of studies onrats.
It's like they remove molarsand this and that it's like they
compare it to basically elderlypeople that they've lost their
spatial awareness, they've lostcognitive ability.

(14:27):
And you take kids withTourette's, you take all this
different stuff.
It's like the minute you addvertical height to some of these
kids who's basically teetharen't the right height, with
the right occlusion and liketicks go away, bedwetting goes
away, like all this stuff.
You're like this is like insane, and I think that's like the
biggest thing is like there'sthis whole long-term health that

(14:51):
ties in to when our verticalheight of our teeth are like the
right height, like frombasically a nervous system
perspective, like even like theacetylcholine in our like
synaps's and all this stuff.
It's like the very essence ofthese studies where they take
the molars out of these teeth,different stuff along those
lines.
You're like dude, this is likeand this is where, like I

(15:19):
started learning from this.
Uh, dr dwight jennings he didmike k had a wizard brother.
It'd be like this dr dwightjennings out of oakland dude, he
reminds me of him by dude, dude, this is a smart dude.
And the biggest thing I'venever heard another human talk
about this is he basically saysthat like we have this neural

(15:40):
modulator it's called substanceP and like the minute our bite
and our occlusion, our TMJ isoff, like the trigeminal nerve
gets pissed off.
Then he basically said we havethis influx from these issues of
substance p and he literallytalks about like every known
disease.
He's like do this just floodsthe system and he's basically

(16:02):
like even from like a lymedisease.
He basically says it likebasically uncouples the cells,
depolarizes them, and like thevery essence of this stuff, but
like I don't think any of thatwould hit home until most people
don't understand that, likemost people's jaws are
underdeveloped, which means likethis mechanism is the thing for

(16:23):
everyone, but like people mighthear this and not understand,
but then it's just like, okay,that makes sense, because like
everyone doesn't know that, likethey have what he's talking
about, which is why thismechanism is driving, and I'm
like I'll definitely dwightjennings.
I'll definitely look him up yeah, he has a two-part with uh dave

(16:45):
asprey, so he does like forbulletproof it pretty
interesting.

Cool.
So when you're talking aboutsort of the sensory function of
teeth or what it can be, thecircuitry, do you think in
boxing?
When some guys are described ashaving a glass jaw, do you
think their circuitry is justmore delicate than other people?

So he, literally Dr Dwight Jennings, talks about
this in a podcast.
So basically, muhammad Ali,right, he said he broke his jaw
and no one would touch itbecause it was Muhammad Ali.
And then he just talks aboutlike, but like, this is where I
think.
And he just talks about this, solike, if you're a mouth
breather, you're alreadypredisposed to stuff getting
worse because you know, ifyou're, basically if your tongue

(17:28):
fits on your palate and you gethit, from a concussion
standpoint at least you'reprobably had the stabilizing
effect, versus a mouth breathergets hit, the lower upper jaw
are basically going to supertorsion because, like they're
not coupled with the, basicallythe chid strap we call our
tongue.
And then, like, you start totake like this and I'm like I

(17:51):
think just after the fact you'vegot that torsion effect from
basically the palate not beingsealed and now you have whatever
neutral used to be is likeslightly off, and now it's like
everything we're looking for iswrong in the beginning, and then
it's like our nervous systemgoes looking for neutral and
it's like, but this is where Ilike really think for anyone

(18:15):
that's had a bad concussion, andthen they or even not even that
bad and then they start to havesome weird neurological or
symptoms show up a few yearslater, like this is the very
essence of like.

I would tell people to start there because
you feel like it would just belike that low level constant,
like you can't ever fully relaxbecause the the circuits aren't
properly aligned yeah, I mean,all the best stuff I say is like
it.

just they use the word covert.
It's like it's, it's below ourconscious understanding, like we
don't know, yeah, and then itjust builds, and builds, and
builds until it shows up, andthen it's often so far away from
the incident that we can't tiethe two together.
Regular medicine isn't lookingfor this, so who's going to
catch it?

Yep, that'll make sense.
Yeah, it's one of the manyperfect storms where things can
get missed.

Yeah, all right, so can you talk more?

about some of the many perfect storms where
things can get missed.
Yeah, all right, so can youtalk more about sleep?
Some of the sleep issues um, issnoring a red flag that people
should be looking out for?
Um, I guess let's just startthere and then I want to go into
osa.

Yeah, like I think so.
It's like you snoring can beindicative of sleep apnea, but
like it doesn't mean because yousnore that you have sleep apnea
, if that makes sense.
So it's like for kids you don'twant kids that snore and it's
kind of like one of those things.
Ideal situation is that wenasal breathe all the time.

That tells us that like we've got sufficient,
basically, pipes in our nose todo the job to ensure we're not
being robbed of quality when itcomes to our sleep okay, and
then so on the obstructive sleepapnea side, can you describe
the difference between that andupper airway resistance syndrome
, which I had to look up whenyou'd email this to me?

(20:07):
Um?
Yeah just because it's like theresearch I did.

It seems like, uh, uars is just like a catch-all
thing for what is outside ofobstructive sleep apnea, but I'd
love if you could just describea little bit more about the
nuance between those two yeah, Ithink like one of the things
I've seen is like with osa,right, like I always say like,
uh, think of like the, the, yourfat uncle that fell asleep

(20:34):
watching a football game.
He's got the beer gut, 50pounds overweight.
He's snoring middle of the day.
So oftentimes like you've gotsomeone that basically they've
got more of a robust system.
So think like a skinny marathonrunner versus like the farm boy
from Nebraska that's thrownbales of hay that like literally

(20:57):
, he's just got massive forearms.
So if you think of like twoarchetypes, the OSA tends to be
someone with bigger pipes and,as a result, they either
partially or stop breathing froman apnea or hypopnea standpoint
.
And what tends to happen withOSA is it tends to be more of

(21:18):
your metabolic stuff.
So you think like type 2diabetes, you think basically
anyone with heart issues.
I mean I know a few guyspersonally actually, that have
had heart attacks from sleepapnea and then they ended up
getting a c-pat, but it'softentimes, you know, kind of
that it's more of like ametabolic it's going to affect.

(21:40):
But like then I think, from uars, basically it tends to be like
I think my doc called it likeskinny, modern day sleep apnea
young, fit, male, female, butlike and this is where I think,
like with these, it's likeyou're not actually apnea,

(22:00):
hypopnea, it's more like laborbreathing and then, as a result,
you look at like UARS and itlike if I was going to bucket
people.
It's like all your somaticsymptoms like Lyme disease, ibs,
chronic fatigue that you'rejust like fibromyalgia but you
start to take like autism, adhd,like all that stuff, and it's

(22:20):
like more of like a neurologicalas it relates to the airway,
and I think oftentimes it's moreof a sensitized airway.
That's neurological, in effect,versus like the osa, which

(22:41):
tends to just be like uh,snoring or they stop breathing,
they like wake themselves upthere.
A lot like the two differentkids yeah, I have an uncle.

I always think of yeah, so are.
So if people fall into eitherof those two camps, are there
different like paths that youwould send people down?

yeah.
So I guess it's like this right, the gold standard is like a
c-pap which I think is trashstraight up like I mean
literally like outside of well,outside of well.
I guess I'll start here.
I think a lot of modernmedicine doesn't even know that
expansion for adults is a thing.

(23:17):
So I literally think WatchPat 1is probably the best at home
for testing.
And I remember there was a rephere and I asked her is there
anyone that sells your device inArizona that would even offer
the option of someone gettingpalate expansion if they're

(23:39):
diagnosed as an adult?
She's like I don't have anyone.
So then I ended up talking to adoctor and he has five sleep
clinics.
He's in his 40s here, and I waslike, yeah, like do you refer
any people to do palateexpansion?
He's like I'll do some research.
He's like I found a place inVegas.
I'm like like I guess thehardest thing is the scope of
practice means that doctors canonly sell what is in their

(24:15):
wheelhouse, and I guess thehardest thing is doing the right
thing at the cost of takingmoney out of your own pocket as
a doctor.
And so I think the issuebecomes like if someone's going
to always go the ethical route.
It's like that's not evenenough because a lot of people
don't understand.
But I think for many people,like expansion is a really good

(24:40):
option.
And then for those that don'twant to do this right, like
there's the.
You basically either have amandibular device which
basically is going to repositionthe jaw to kind of help, or
like a CPAP.
And then what I really like isbasically, from like old people
perspective, is the Vivos.

(25:00):
I did Like I've seen 60 and 70year olds, like I think this is
covered by Medicare now, andit's like I've seen 60, 70 year
olds literally you don't have tohave surgery, and I've seen it
double the size of some olderpeople's airways and then it's
just like either that or with aCPAP, but like you can do both
at the same time.

(25:22):
Like I talked to so many momsevery week that like their kids
have like sleep apnea, like, andit's like to hear daily I mean
you've seen the guys that workat my gym to see I have moms
tell me about four andfive-year-old kids that have
bigger jaws than every person Iwork with- yeah, I was just

(25:45):
thinking to the guys that workthere.
Yeah, but it's like I got oneguy that has a six pack.
He was a pro golfer, he's 32,he has severe sleep apnea.
You look at all these guys,they're all fit.
I got another guy.
He went through his handlebarswith his top six teeth when he

(26:05):
was a kid.
Jaw never developed so he's gotlike a super small, like that's
going to be a nightmare for himto fix.
And then I got a third guythat's like probably about your
age.
Same thing.
Like big dude said take some 20minutes to uncouple his jaw on
one side every day when he wakesup in the morning.
And all these dudes got sixpacks.
They look like hell.
And then you got, you know,ando.

(26:26):
That works for us Like he hadhis wisdom teeth removed when he
was 20.
They literally removed his backmolars, bottom molars on each
side from like cavities, didn'treplace them.
And then I'm sitting therereading yesterday about studies
for increased likelihood ofParkinson's due to not having
your back teeth and the verticalheight, and I'm like like dude,

(26:47):
these are all healthy lookingdudes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, until other other things start
presenting yeah, okay, all right.
Uh, I do want to get into theuh trigeminal nerve, if you can
kind of explain what that is.
You talked about it quite a bit, and then I think we just start
wrapping up just with, like, uhresources, of which I think

(27:10):
there are going to be a lot.

Yeah, yeah, I would say like, if you think, like
the trigeminal nerve, like thinklike a Jason mask right, like
that's kind of basically thefront of our face all the way
down, and then it's basicallygot like three branches that
basically like come above andbelow the mouth and then kind of
the forehead, and basicallylike 50 of our basically our

(27:36):
sensory and motor in our brainis tied to that one nerve and
basically it connects down tolike the c3 and it's like all on
one freaking track.
And this is where oftentimes,because the muscles of the face,
the jaw and the cervicalvertebrae are all kind of

(27:58):
tethered together on the sameride, like that, if they're not
balanced, I lack stability forthis super powerful nerve.
And what ends up happening alot of times is like whether
it's severe, even it's a lowlevel, it's like this covert
stimulation and that what tendsto happen is like this covert

(28:22):
stimulation of the trigeminalnerve goes on, and then
oftentimes it's like this poorsignaling that is a reflection
of this, that like tends tostart to signal other stuff.
And this is where, like, thingsgo sideways and then just
you've got a nervous systemthat's literally been like

(28:42):
sensitized all because, likethis is off.
And then you've got a kidthat's hypersensitive to
everything from allergies tonervous system and you name it.
But like there's so much therefrom like just health issues
especially tied to the nervoussystem, Okay, is there a person

(29:06):
who speaks about this,specifically, the trigeminal
nerve?
Yeah, like.
So I think like theneuromuscular dentist is key and
for someone that understands itand I think more so someone
that's a neuromuscular dentist,that has a specialization in TMD
, which is basically the TMjoint dysfunction, I think

(29:28):
oftentimes we'll kind of maybe afunctional dentist might
understand it versus someonethat's maybe more qualified to
treat it, might be someone inthat world, and then you know,
I've just found that there'sthose with, I think there's some
that just treat it with Botoxand splints for the rest of your
life, and then some that'll goin and fix with, fix the

(29:49):
occlusion with braces and stufflike that.

Okay, cool.
So, gus, I have so many notesalready, but I do want to circle
back to the dentist, right?
So, if you speak to a lot ofparents, what are questions
either for themselves or fortheir kids, what are questions
that they can and should beasking if they're worried about
this or suspect this is what'shappening and it's not being

(30:15):
diagnosed.

I think, first and foremost, there's this biometric
marker that called theintermolar width.
That I think is humongous.
It's not that it's everything,but I think it's very important
and I think for every parentmoving forward to kind of be at
least under the care of someonein that world that understands

(30:39):
that to monitor your child isimportant Because, like 40% of
our facial development is doneby the time we're like four
years old.
So I think there's this kind ofsomeone that's going to help
steer your child.
If, like by five or six,there's intervention that needs

(31:01):
to be done, but like this, Iwould say that's really
important.
And then I think searching outlike a pediatrician especially
two, that works with someonethat's like a functional dentist
or a pediatric dentist thatdoes expansion, I think is
really important because mostpediatricians don't even know.

(31:21):
So then they start your kid onasthma meds or this and that,
and they're five or six and it'slike, rather than just kind of
getting them the right help, Ithink that's important.
And then a regular dentistthat's actually going to ask,
like how is your child sleeping?
Like do they snore?
Do they keep their mouth closedwhen they sleep or when they're
breathing all day long, like Ithink those are like really

(31:43):
important questions, just lowlevel, to kind of catch things
early on so, on the inner molarwidth, is there a way to measure
that is like there's somethingyou can buy, or is?

do you just like put a piece of paper in your
mouth, stomp down on it?

yeah, like I have like these little wax bite
plates and obviously it's notlike a 3d ct scan, but it's like
at least kind of gives peoplelike an idea.
Literally, like they're likethese wax squares, you can cut
them down.
Um, there's a lot of littlethings.
You kind of figure out a way tojust literally have your kid
bite down and kind of have anunderstanding is that what's I'm

(32:20):
?

you can finish.
I got this question writtendown.

I would just say like I think that's really
important for parents to likehave a dentist or a doctor that
understands that that evenmatters, because if they don't,
they don't understand airway andits long term effects on your
kid's health.
Like straight up, like I don'tcare if they're your neighbor
're awesome, that's cool,they're a good human.
But like long term for your kid, like that is so important,

(32:47):
nice, that's huge yep, okay, uhis.

Is that something that can be measured from an
x-ray?

um, I mean technically you probably could,
I don't know like for littlekids, like how often I guess I
speak with people a lot of timesthat like they're taking their
kids and they'll do the 3d scansbecause like people want to
check.
I think the other reallyimportant thing is finding a
pediatrician or airway doc thatis looking and measuring your

(33:16):
child's nasal resistance,because that is the number one
thing.
Like your kid will have a mouthbreathing problem because of
nasal resistance, because thatis the number one thing.
Like your kid will have a mouthbreathing problem because of
nasal resistance, and thatshould always be accounted for.
So even the best, I thinkairway docs, orthos, are working
in conjunction with an ENT andit's called four phase

(33:38):
rhinomanometry, where ent canactually measure your child and
there's some pediatric dentiststhat actually have them.
So it's like a, it's a toolthat they can use in conjunction
pre-post treatment to kind ofbasically look at age, height
and kind of like just thenormalized data and often it

(34:00):
will tell like, is your childbreathing well, can they move
air?
And if they can't, where theissues lie structurally.

Okay, cool.
So that's the four phase,rhinometry.
Did I say that right?

Yeah, rhinomanometer yeah.

Rhinomanometer.
Oh yeah, of course therhinomanometer.
So, that's how you measurenasal resistance.

Yeah.

Okay, all right.
Um, so that's how you measurenasal resistance.
Yeah, okay, all right.
Uh, and then what's the exactlanguage you would use to say I
want a 3d scan to measure myinner?

molar width, or maybe it's just that, yeah, so
like you could do a 3d CT scanor it's called a cone beam, just
be like you know.
You could ask, like I guess theone thing I would always tell
parents, especially in the worldthat airway is vetting the
doctor prior to going, I wouldjust say, you know what does
their assessment look like?
And then, or even if you findout like, is this person

(34:54):
expanded any kids your kids agein the last year?
How many have they?
Because it's like if they'renot doing it then it's probably
not even something they'relooking for.
But I think, to kind of startsomewhere, that they you know,
that they even have anunderstanding of whether your
kid should do that or not, Ithink is huge in this world.
And then I would just ask youknow, does the doctor do cone

(35:17):
bean scam or does he have a wayof measuring the interval or
width and his?
You know what's theirphilosophy as far as when to
expand?

Okay, yeah, I think that's really helpful,
just because it's better thansomebody having to call their
dentist, which is probablyuncomfortable enough and be like
.
I listened to two guys on apodcast talk about this thing,
so that's why I wanted to getthe you know, get the exact
language around that.
Okay, so I think that's a goodplace to start for people with
in a role or with either forthemselves or for the kids.

(35:47):
Pediatrician should be workingwith a pediatric dentist as well
.
How to measure nasal resistanceI'll link to all that.
Are there any people that aregood to follow on either social
media or just in the space thatyou want to point people towards
, that are kind of haveaccessible information around
any of this?

I would say the Breathe Institute and Dr Soroush
Zaghi.
He's there, so he's like an ENTand a sleep doc, but he has
kind of helped drive that place.
There's a Dr Karen ParkerDavidson, and her Instagram

(36:27):
handle is the nose nose.
She could be the smartestperson I've ever heard when it
comes to basically the mechanicsand nasal resistance and
testing from an airwayperspective.
I mean, she's super smart,she's very well connected, been

(36:48):
in the game for like a long time, um, and then I would say dr
courtney donka I think it'sd-o-N-K-O-H.
She is a pediatric doctor orpediatric, basically

(37:11):
orthodentist out of Chicago andshe actually has like a
five-year-old daughter thatshe's expanded and then she
literally does like 15 differentkinds of expansion.
So I think for people to listento podcasts from a woman who's
a mom as well as like a doc inthat world, to hear like she has
a podcast on jaw hacks, that'slike really good.
Just to hear her talk aboutlike what it's like to try to

(37:34):
raise a kid, to get the most youknow out of their airway at
this age, knowing what she knowsas a specialist in that field.

Okay, cool.
Yeah, that's great.
We'll definitely link to allthose.
I'll try to find some of those,some of those podcasts that
people have done, and link tothose as well.
Are there any other resourcesyou want to provide, like there
are any like tools that you use,or is it all just kind of
specific to the tools will comewith the, I guess, diagnosis and
interventions to the tools willcome with the, I guess,

(38:04):
diagnosis and interventions.

Yeah, I think, like I guess for kids, like really
good, it's called a myo munchie.
That basically it's like achewing device is like really
good for stimulation.

Is it like a jaws or size.

Yeah, not really, but kind of a great device.
And then I really think likethe one other thing I would say,
like for a lot of parents too,is, uh, just some of the
different stuff, like eitherlike the intake nasal valves or
like some of these like splintsfor your nose for like sleeping,
especially for like olderpeople.

(38:34):
I think like there is nothingbetter than for someone that's
going to undersize airway.
It's like these are fivedollars on amazon and literally
it's like called the mute nasaldilator and literally it just
sits in your nose.
And I mean my mom thought I wasdoing like black magic with her
nasal resistance.
Like she put it in andliterally like there's uh it's
called a paniff where itmeasures your nasal resistance.

(38:57):
My mom was literally a cutternasal resistance at half, but my
mom's like for something thateasy, it's literally probably
like that's a low-hanging fruitto help most people just like
sleep better pretty good bangfor your buck there.

Yeah, do you do anything with uh mouth taping?

it's kind of one of those things like I have.
It's kind of more like I guessit doesn't change like how I
sleep, so it's not like, uh, Iguess from all the myofunctional
stuff I've done, like itdoesn't I don't feel like when I
do it it like alters anything.
I think some people like I meanI've seen the research.
It's like probably 50%reduction in snoring and stuff.

(39:38):
I guess people to just becareful, like if you have a clog
here and now we're taping this,like just you know, obviously
always check with the doctorfirst.
And I think for those that aregoing to do it without it, like
if it's not significantly makingit better, I probably tell
people not to do it unlessyou're like oh, this is game

(39:58):
changer.
Like Brandon my businesspartner does it and it like it
really.
He's like dude, it really helpsme.
I think it's more of like causehe has enough space.
I think it's more of like apostural tool to just kind of
his nervous system to keep it incheck.

Yeah, yeah, like he might just be getting lazy at
night and just, uh, the jawjust drops open a little bit.
Uh, I haven't mapped tape,probably since whenever the last
time I saw you was, but evenaround then I wasn't doing like
the strictly actually taping it,it was just sort of like around
the lips it was just providinga little extra pressure to like
keep them closed, but if Ineeded to, I could pop it open.
Yeah, all right, um, I don'tknow that.

(40:35):
I, yeah, I don't know thatanything else or any other
resources you wanted to share um, I'm trying to think.

One other good woman is, uh so dr dr saru zagi,
he's at the breeze institute.
His wife dr nora zagi, she'sreally good as well.

How do you spell that last name?

um, uh, z-a-g-h-i Okay, but I think like she's
really good, she's a pediatriclike dentist, like really good,
just like from a mom perspectiveand all that stuff as well.

Okay, great, all right, so that's, that's all I
had on all the mouth.
Stuff I'd love to just hearabout, like how work's going
though.
How's the gym I love workingthere.
So I kind of I miss the stuffI'd love to just hear about,
like how work's going though,how's the gym, um, I love
working there.
So I kind of I miss the space,I miss the people you know, dude
, it's been.

I feel like this last year has been awesome, even
the last six months, like dudeWyndham literally won the.

US open.
He's like top 10 right now.

Right right now right, yeah, so I think he
finished third last season, butit's like he literally almost
won again last weekend, yeah,and it's like sean just won his
fight the other night.
So it's like I saw that numberone in the world has been cool.
Um.
And then we brought on I don'tknow if you've met dallas.
He was like a ex-pro golfer.

(41:58):
He's from Canada.

I know of him yeah.

And then we brought on Cole and Nate.
Basically about a year ago theyactually both grew up in
Gilbert.
Okay Well, our team is frickingawesome, so it's just been fun
Like everyone's busy.

Yeah.

Uh, major has been in.
He's been probably 10, 15 hoursa week.
So I just feel like it's likethis really good.

I don't know, it's just fun yeah now the, the
dynamic there is always reallyfun.
It's like kind of going out anddoing the entrepreneur thing.
It's, yeah, fun in its own way,but you'll definitely lose.
Like that sort of teamwork,camaraderie plus like a gym
setting is just a little bitmore fun than like a remote work
from home setting yeah, it'slike even today, right, it's

(42:42):
like I don't know 75, the doorsare open.

You're like god it is just.
It's like a bunch of yourbuddies like joking around.

You're like let's wait, I'm just fun yep, good
music on uh, and also just kindof give you a shout out um, the
people that you were referencingbefore, windham clark, uh, pga.
So if you guys want to look himup, if you don't know who he is
, uh, stud golfer.
Uh, trains with ando there andthen, uh, sugar sean o'malley.
He just uh defended his title,is that correct?

(43:12):
yep, yeah, first time defend yep, yeah, I was checking twitter
on saturday night waiting forthat fight to come on, uh, but
it seems like he he he handleshimself pretty well, but he
trains with uh, your, yourbusiness partner, brandon.
Yep, all right, greg, this isfun catching up.
Uh, this was more than I wouldever thought I would have known
about mouth things, but you know, it's probably just scratching

(43:34):
the surface for what you know.
Um, and hopefully this ishelpful for a lot of people,
because I think I really dothink a lot of this stuff is
just kind of be like the nextevolution of where diagnosis
goes, because I feel like somany things in the world
especially the way we treatthings, we just treat symptoms

(43:55):
and there's never really a diveinto like root cause analysis
think a lot of this stuff, onceit becomes more widespread and
more well-known and betterresearched, I think it's going
to uncover a lot of themysteries that are kind of out
there, with people just notreally understanding where their
symptoms are coming from andwhy certain interventions aren't
working as well as they shouldbe.
So I really appreciate youcoming on, kind of sharing your
knowledge, shedding some lighton a lot of these interesting

(44:17):
topics we're going to link toyou and the show notes as well.
So if people have questions, asI assume they will, hopefully
you don't mind them reaching outto you.

No, for sure, man, I appreciate you having me Good
catching up dude.

Yeah, appreciate it, greg.
Hey, everyone.
That's all for today's show.
I want to thank you so much forstopping by and watching,
especially if you've made it allthe way to this point.
If you'd like to be notifiedwhen new episodes are going to
be released, feel free tosubscribe and make sure you hit
the bell button as well.
To learn more about today'sguest, feel free to look in the
description.
You can also visit the podcastwebsite, which is

(44:51):
exploringhealthpodcastcom.
That website will also belinked in the description.
As always, likes, shares,comments, are a huge help to me
and to this channel and to theshow.
So any of that you can do Iwould really appreciate.
And again, thank you so muchfor watching.
I'll see you next time.

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