How the Baggins Side of Bilbo Lost : The Hobbit #3

Bilbo loses the comfort of his home and finds that the Tookish side of his mind is starting to overcome the Baggins side

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Before the rings of power, there were a
sum is
before Sauron, there was his master Morgoth.
Before Aragorn and Darwin, there was Baron and
mu.
Join us as we explore tolkien and only
the ages of middle Earth with your hosts
from the 1 ring dot com, Jonathan Watson
and michael G.

(00:24):
You know, I just realized in that intro,
we don't see anything about the hobbit don't
believe there's any reference at all to anything
in the hobbit. Said maybe you change that.
Yeah. Before Bilbo, there was
Az.
I
It was went in the spirit of the
hobbit,
we should we should have Austin
do a

(00:45):
rendition. This that's the voice I help. The
misty Oh, There you go.
Yeah. Yeah. If he's gonna be sing. I
don't know.
I'd have him just read it. That'd be
great. That Austin is just for all y'all
who who who are wondering Austin, Robertson. He's
the the gentleman who does all of our
intros and sting that that we set sound.
His voice is amazing. If you ever need
him, go to austin Robertson voice dot com.

(01:06):
And and, yeah, Check him out. He also
does all the Babylon on b's voice overs
and everything along those lines. So he definitely
has the experience. But, on even a very
off chance I that he listens to this
probably not, but I was pulling my my
glowing moment. I was trying to I was
doing what Glowing does. And Gl moment in
the sun comes in this chapter or in
the shade as the case maybe because they're

(01:27):
they're they're actually in the dark,
where he, I he is 1 of the
3 spur
to Bilbo took side. There are 3 things
that spur Bilbo on and get him involved
in the adventure. 3 times when his took
side rises, and, the second 1 is Gl
insults were he's saying basically, you know, I
don't think he's got it in him. And

(01:48):
and
wait, I he the 1 who says you're
grocer or not a burglar? Yes. He calls
him a grocer. It's fantastic. And Bilbo.
Gets very ind in and gives a very
English speech standing on his dignity as the
as Tolkien says, Yeah. So Glowing Gl sparks
that took in him. And I was... He
does it by insult. And so I was

(02:09):
trying to challenge Austin.
I'm so I'm sure he... I'm sure he
can see.
Yeah.
And if not, we'll pretend you can.
We'll just say good good job. We'll be
like,
you answered every question. Wait.
Alright. Hey Thanks everybody for listening. We are
onto the second half of the chapter.

(02:30):
Chapter 1 an unexpected party in the hobbit.
The part where Bilbo goes through meets all
the doors, they all come in and he's
battling with his took side again as he
wanted. Go out, does he wanna stay in?
Does he run and save, struck by lightning
over and over again? Or does he barge
in and say how dare you call me
somebody who can capable. Come commute with you
to the end of it Any he loves
maps. More than gold or anything else he

(02:51):
loves. That's the third spur to his took
say. Yeah. So we'll jump into that, and
we're gonna have an extended addition edition. We're
gonna talk a little bit about
what I'm going to mention in our hobbit
facts or hobbit fact.
It's kind of just 1 fact. Hobbit fact.
And just a little bit. Every episode we
start with the hobbit fact.
And we also start with reminding y'all

(03:11):
that we have supporters
for the wondering ring.
Dot com's exploring talking podcast. Who get access
to our discord channel, all the channels on
our discord channel. If you're free loader, you
can get them by clicking the link in
the show notes below in Youtube or on
your podcast app. However, you do not get
access to the exploring token
membership areas. So sorry.

(03:33):
That is 4 dollars a month. You get
the extended podcast, which is about 15, 20
minutes longer, where we get into these things
that are a little bit more depth than
we answer questions and we just discuss them.
Sometimes we don't have the answers, but we
pretend that we do.
No
we'll tell you if we don't. But we
we do. We like something... You challenge us.
And,
boy, I gotta bring that up We have

(03:54):
a great... A great quote quote from... I
think it's a Michael Drought. Does that name
ring a bell? Is that the right the
right person Yeah. Who
who talked
about... I'm gonna get this here because it's
important, and I wanted to mention it.
About the golf
bit we're going to hear about, how golf
was created.
And some of the details around why why

(04:15):
it's such an interesting thing that he chose
that that Tolkien chose golf.
So we'll talk about that. Center to talk
about the p fragment, which is on the
earlier recognition of
of the hobbit, the earliest manuscript we've got.
Anyway, go to the 1 dot com slash
member, become member. First month is free or
go to 1 dot dot com slash patreon
you can do 5 dollars a month in
the first week is free,

(04:36):
and we thanks. Thanks. Think we thanks. We
thanks you for your supports. We thank you
for your support. Appreciate guys. Keeps us going.
Also, hey, like, subscribe, to all that sort
of stuff because I... You know, I don't
have a good pit way of saying it,
but don't say it often enough apparently. And
if I don't remind you guys, you're not
gonna click on it If you don't click
on, other people aren't gonna find this. You
don't find this where not gonna have his
interesting conversations. And what I want is have

(04:56):
interesting conversations all people listening.
Because it's far better than
respect the logic train that he just
played out for you.
Sorry. In order to have interesting conversations. Yeah.
Become a member. That's my.
That that's sounds so bad. Okay. Alright. We
got something actually truth. We're gonna have interested

(05:16):
interesting conversations no matter what, But we will
to them, then that's... This helps. Okay. Interesting
conversation. Number 1, and the only 1 we're
having today is about the hobbit.
Part 2, essentially, what we're redeeming part 2
of the first chapter an unexpected party. Number
This is episode 3.
Yep. To recap the part 1, we ended
on the conversation between Gandalf and Bilbo.

(05:39):
Where Bilbo says good day. Number of times
means a bunch of different things and Gandalf
finds this amusing, scratches something on his beautiful
as we found out recently painted door. We
find up we found out from chapter the
second half of the chapter.
And and also, there's apparently a bunch of
Job marking
This is a world of H markings as

(06:00):
well. Have you have you heard about this
in in the real world?
No. Apparently, I just listen to a podcast
on it.
Apparently, there's a, there's a bunch of
signs and figures that that people that are
that move from place to place with...
That are with no home
who prefer to call themselves H.

(06:20):
They
they have a
gl language of some kind where they give...
They leave symbols places, which tells the fellow
H. This is a good place for a
meal,
you know, this is dangerous, stay away from
this, you know... And a bunch of different
markings.
What I found Hilarious was apparently that's the
case with dwarves at least, that... Because they

(06:41):
really glowing. Gl is very specific about the
mark that gandalf off left on the door,
which it... A very complicated mark for something
that was scratched on a door with the
end of his walking stick. So... Or his
staff. So
yeah. We'll get to that. But mostly, this
whole this whole chapter,
I was struck this time reading through it

(07:01):
carefully.
By how domestic this is. This is a,
this whole chapter is very domestic at great
contrast, of course, to where we're gonna end
up in the hobbit, in the layer of
a dragon at the end, near the end
in in a battle between an epic battle
between the armies.
But here just starts
withdrawing rooms and tea

(07:22):
and,
a variety of
of English food stuffs and practices
that that were incredibly domestic. And I was
realizing that as I've been reading to my
children over the years,
this is 1 of the things that hooks
them in. And it happened with my the
last child I have. Who is my 7
year old.

(07:43):
She's listening to this for the first time.
And Steve was me
by the talk of the food.
And
and the... Under the different kinds of food
that the doors demand and Bilbo serves and
Bilbo running back and forth as the dwarves
trickling in, the all 13 dwarves trickle in,
heat... Mh. Running back and forth,

(08:04):
you know, getting them food, do them drink,
being a trying to be a good host,
cursing under his breath about the dwarves about
them and and,
the word of the day,
is,
which is an awesome word. Yeah. And and
in fact,
in the annotated edition that,
You kinda kindly. Kindly got got.

(08:26):
It's nice.
Yeah. It says that Tolkien made into the
Oe, the oxford English dictionary most famous English
dictionary in the world.
He is his
quotation of con... The word can fu
is a is Makes it in there as
1 of their examples of an archaic word,
which
appears first before him, you know, before lord

(08:49):
of the rings or the hobbit. It appears
in the late 18 hundreds, but
it's a a word that I I've never
seen used before.
It's a great word confusing
You know you know what we don't know.
Because we haven't gone to do this Is
we don't know if he'd put that in
his first copy of his manuscript because we
have to get to our hobbit fact, Michael
first. Oh been to that sorry man. Jeez.

(09:11):
I know you wanna talk again back off,
Michael. I got it. I got it... I...
I sent a smell with Jonathan cooking.
So today's...
Covid facts.
Is that
This comes from the history of Hobbit, which
is the most, in... Book about Bah hobbit,

(09:31):
but you can get... You can get a
kindle version. Apparently, it's incredible hard to to
get a
print version because I ordered 1 and it's,
like, been 4 weeks and it's still not
shipped yet, They're still saying it's August. So
here's the thing. It has a section of
it that's called the P fragment. Now if
remember from last week, P is the original
name of Sma.
Mh.
And

(09:52):
the author of the history of the hobbit
just decided to named that because it it,
I guess, sounds good. They doesn't tell us
why. But
here's what it is. A fragment of 6
pages of the original manuscript of the hobbit
that's been preserved.
And we don't know what's happened to the
other. Missing pages of that original manuscript because
it starts
in the middle actually, of of the sec

(10:14):
it doesn't start at the very beginning. So
we don't know where the first parts of
the p fragment are.
And But what it does have, it has
the different names, the original names of Gandalf
Blood and P.
It has even more, references, and I'll read
this in our extended edition if you guys
listen in,
in

(10:35):
even more ex references to our world today,
mentioning Hindu c the great desert of Go
and the wild worms of the Chinese.
So when he says wild, worms there, it
oli makes me think Dragons rather than W0RS
even though that's how it's spelled their W
y rms.
Which would mean that Peter Jackson was completely

(10:57):
wrong in bringing up the worms in
in the hobbit. And you mean the
the S
from the from Or. That's yeah.
That make their way into Middle Earth. Yes.
Something burrow their way through space and time
into middle Earth. Yeah. And what's funny about
it is this this fragment, it it just
stops. Like, he just stops writing in the

(11:17):
middle of a sentence and it's not but
at the end of, it's not missing anything.
It just stops in the middle of sentence,
which is
there's no time to lose. You must you
must be off before daybreak and well on
your way. Dwarves,
and that's it. It just ends there. So
apparently, the muse
stopped at that point. And then I like
to imagine that he was sitting there writing
and he knocked over his cup of tea

(11:38):
or something.
Like,
Well, that's ridiculous it. So he goes to
cleaning it up. And then as he's cleaning
it up, he's just that... He's he's going
through all his doubts that he's had about
this rewrite and just decides to scrap it.
Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so that's interesting. And
Go thor, we talk about names being, Gandalf
was originally thor.
Blood was originally Gandalf the original... B was

(12:01):
a name of Gandalf as we know Gandalf,
and P was the name of Sma. And
also,
throw
Thor grandfather was named F ph.
Oh, that's...
These are... But these are all names that
come from
I believe it what is it? The the
pros Edd. These are all all du names
from that. So he took them directly out

(12:23):
that Fin family was on 1 of them.
He just... Decided that was good, but decided
later.
Perhaps it's a little awkward authentic taking
the rest of them. Hey, Ore. That... There
you have your hobbit fact
I'll come up with where every week. Okay.
Back to
chapter 1 part 2,
talking about the,
English ness of it, the... What what is

(12:43):
what was the word do you use the
domestic. Domestic.
Right. So this is a very domestic tale,
like, the whole. Everything about the hobbit hole
and the dinner and the dwarves is fast
was fascinating
and has been to my children as I've
been reading. I realized I mean, this is
part of what makes it a children's story
is this is a very...
It's an English tale. It's an English turn

(13:04):
of the century, turn the, twentieth century ish.
Late nineteenth.
Definitely not a medieval world. I mean, he's
got
doorbell and drawing rooms and and all sorts
of I mean, there's a reference in here
funnily enough to a, the whistle of an
engine. Yeah. Right. I'm surprised that went out
since he took other things. He he he

(13:26):
deliberately considered it. Because he rewrote. He rewrote
the annotated version said he rewrote some of
it.
But he never went with a rewritten. He
just kept it in. Yeah.
So so it it... There's... It's is... But
it's... But it's the food, you know, you
got cake, and you got all different kinds
of alcohol. You got beer and wine and
porter and ale and and

(13:48):
tea and coffee, and, I mean, just all
sorts of drinks of various of various sorts,
but you you have
cakes and scone and jamming carts and mince
pies and cheese, pork pies and salad it
and
chicken and pickles. And and I just... It's
it's like this this feast. Is it... It's
it and the kids... The kids love it.
They love that part, They also love because

(14:09):
my children do dishes. They loved the chip
the glasses and cracked the plate song, which
they all learned and that was a fine
tradition because I taught it to my brothers
and when I was young and at the
hobbit, and we all chanted it while we
were doing dishes as a kid. So that
tradition has continued in the Grapevine household. Well,
I'll I'll ask you then. Mister did you
say it in the same way that Token

(14:30):
saying it? Because you have recording. I've never
heard him. I've never heard him sing it.
We we did... We chanted it. We just
do... It it was just a kind of
a a chant, a not a song so
camera Chip. The glasses and crack the plates.
Blunt the knives and bend the forks. That's
what Bill bag hates. The bottles.
Smash the bottles. Smash the bottles and burn

(14:51):
in of course. So I'm not actually reading
this as I'm so Just I it. Doing
it for memory. I here. Well, here. Let's
listen to Tolkien and actually say I'll have.
Got it. Off. I have it here. So
it's... It was a... The cool thing about
getting the kindle version of the hobbit it
actually has a recording of Tolkien singing chip
the boxes and crack plates,
and I was able to take that. And
it's really low quality I was able. Take
that and thanks to the magic of the

(15:12):
Ai. You can actually run through some processors
that pull out
all the background noise, the old team and
everything like that and, increase his volume. So
anyway, check this out. This is how tolkien
sounds relatively clearly about the chipped glasses and
crack plates. It's Yep, the glasses and crack
cup blades, but the knives and bend the
rocks. That's what bilbo be bag against hedge.

(15:33):
The motto and burned the cock.
Cut the cloth and pen on a fat,
paw looking on a pen floor, leave leave
the bombs of a bedroom mad splash away
or every door.
Don't put boiling barrel down them up with
a some,
and when you finish if any all, shutting
them down the hold the row,
That's what we a bag and say took

(15:54):
captain captain with the pit. That's what we
will go bag and say took captain captain
with the pit.
Awesome.
Isn't that great? Well, done, That is amazing
all the background noise taken out of that.
Yeah. I mean, I haven't heard that. Recording,
but I've heard others up talking and they're
just always old. There's just... There's just that
noise sort of... That's fantastic. Well, you know,

(16:17):
Ai is good for something That's great. I
haven't Haven't heard the Melody before I didn't...
I never thought of what the Melody would
be. So... So, yeah... And it's funny because
theirs are also the recording of him with
a the the of misty Mountains cold song
that the door saying. But hit that 1,
he just reads it. Straight up. Oh, okay.
I was wasn't gonna say they did Because
because 1 of the few things that I

(16:37):
really love about the Hobbit movie was they
did a fantastic job of that misty Mountain
saw. They didn't they they really did... I
mean, really the first half an hour, 40
minutes of the Hobbit movie is a totally
different thing from the last, the last,
half of that.
Yeah. Yeah. With that first that first meeting
be the first...
So
and then and then you know, oh, you

(16:59):
know, it's I'm gonna see but that song
is really funny.
I actually... When I was a kid,
the idea of having a t pole, like,
what on Earth is a t poll? Like,
what do you have a t poll for?
It's a it's a thing that apparently exists
that tolkien is suggesting
that doors are joking suggesting they use it
on the hobbits

(17:20):
crocker.
But the question becomes like what is a
t poll?
Just a pull. So when I was a
kid, I I decided that I was gonna
have a t poll, and except I would
I would thumb my brother's with it. I
No now, yeah. I know. That's the far
better than using it on the
the cro in a boiling bowl.
So I would... Don't know. So... Yeah. So

(17:41):
he's essentially saying mash crack everything on purpose.
Now break everything. Put them up in there
and, would pound them to dust. Oh when
my kids love this kids. They love that
song. The idea of destruction, but the fact
that Dwarves are also doing the dishes while
we're fly. Yeah. And quote tolkien. And of
course, they did none of these dreadful things
and everything was... Cleaned and put away safe
and quick as lightning, while the hobbit was
turning round and round in the middle kitchen,

(18:02):
trying to see what they were doing. Then
they went back and found the word with
his feet on the fend,
smoking a pipe. There's a fend too apparently.
Also,
not an evil technology. Now. Let's do.
Let's take a little bit of a step
back and talk about how all the dwarves
come in. Right? Because,
you know, thinking back to the film, thinking
back to this. They all come in at

(18:23):
different moments.
2 things that struck me is 1,
is it the same thing as, as if
you've read the hobbit as the Bj orange
scene. Right? Gandalf decides to take them in
slowly so as not too. Like, he's treating
Bilbo like he treats Bj.
So that's from 1 angle from from sort
of from Gandalf angle. The other angle is
seen why is Bilbo so polite?

(18:44):
And is the politeness
part of the hobbit? And so when I
love there's a line at the end of
the the the chapter? Where he just doesn't
care. He's like, he he took all... He
took all their breakfast ordered. He's, like, I
don't care. I'm not gonna make anything for
you guys. It's, like, the the politeness is
almost a
It's like the hobbit side and then not
caring is, like the took your side. I'm
I'm more bag. Yep. It's the bag versus

(19:06):
I took side. So the,
the bag
side
is eminent
English. It's eminent English. Everything about... I mean,
the bag in side is the side... It's
back. The Right? So it's it's it all
that domestic.
All that nineteenth century
technology
and the world of... English drawing rooms and

(19:27):
tea, and
different meals of sorts, the high politeness, the
doorbell, the calling at different hours,
This is all nineteenth century English.
And that's the bag inside. And the turkish
side rises up against it. Like you said
at the very end, it rises up against
to to refuse to make them breakfast that
they had just all ordered.

(19:47):
But but at different points it rises up
and the turkish side
is frankly the side of the hobbit of
bill bag that the story is based on.
Because without the turkish side, there's no there
is no adventure. And so... And that's what
Gandalf saw on him, when they... With their
conversation at the door.
And
I think that
there's... If I was to answer that question,

(20:09):
if there seems less planning by Gandalf,
you to answer your question about the the
staggered.
The staggered introductions of the the slow the
slow arrivals of the dwarves versus the staggered
introductions at Beyond house of Beyond. Mh. I
would say that there's less
we could compare when we get to the
Bj house. It would be fun. But in
general, I would say, less playing by Gandalf,

(20:30):
but deliberate by tolkien,
and I can invent or at least notice,
then, I can notice a reason for that,
which is that there is probably no way
that if they at all, 13 showed up
at once that Be would have been c
into
hosting them. Right. And he would... He would
have just been faced with the reality of

(20:51):
what has what Gandalf was doing to him
and he would did it probably just rejected
it.
There... It requires 3 steps.
For his took side to be fully drawn
out and him to agree to adventure. And
those steps are music
insults
of his dignity,
and then the 1 at the end that

(21:11):
you mentioned, which was maps,
Mh. So his love of maps.
And he's enamored with the map again pulls
out. So you got 3 elements in each
time.
He's being his bag inside is reacting against
the dwarves and kent and he's scared. In
fact, at 1 point, he s, and
and that's that's that's what causes the dwarves

(21:32):
to or glowing
specifically. Father of Gi has his moment in
the dark where he he doubts.
Bilbo character and ability to carry out Burglary
and and then on this adventure.
And
and he
Bilbo
responds to the insult. He's in the other
room

(21:52):
composing himself and listening to glowing insult him
because presumably dwarves a very loud voices.
Deep voices and
and he comes back in in a hu
or on his dignity as tolkien he says,
and defends himself and that took rises up
inside of him and and and,
I mean, that's the most shocking 1. It's...
It's the most shocking because he basically takes

(22:13):
on an adventure agrees up to an adventure.
That he doesn't even know what it is.
So maybe we'll we'll we'll read those the
3 parts.
Let me let me just reference the 1
after the Misty Mountain song. We have things
to say about the misty Mountain song. But
it says, as they saying,
the hobbits felt the love of beautiful things

(22:34):
made by hands and by cunning and by
magic moving through him. A fierce and jealous
love, the desire of the hearts of doors.
Then something tu woke up inside of him,
and he wished to go and see the
great mountains and hear the pine trees in
the waterfalls and explore the caves and wear
a sword instead of a walking stick. What's
fascinating to me is the dwarves song awakens

(22:54):
a dwarf part of him, like he has
the desires of a dwarf.
But then the turkish side of him has
different desires, but they happen to be in
line with the war they... Because he wants
to go and see those things, but the
turkish side of him rises up. So that's
the first the first time the turkish side
rises up.
And then while
while he's listening to glowing insult. So after...

(23:16):
He says it says,
then mister Bag turned the handle. That's... He
turns to handle good to go back in
the room with the War. And went. The
took side had won. He suddenly felt he
would go without breakfast without bad and breakfast
to be thought fierce. So So here... There's
1 part of the Turkish side we just
read was the exploration side. And then the

(23:37):
second part of the Turkish side is he
would go without food. This is a great
sacrifice for hobbits. He would go without food
to be thought fierce. So is the desire
to be thought courageous
is a is a is a thing that
rises up.
As or, quote, little fellow bobbing on the
mat. Close quote. That was Gl quote about
him. It almost made him really fears.

(23:57):
Many a time afterwards, the baggage ends part
regretted what he did now, and he said
to himself, Bilbo, you were a fool. You
walked right in and put your foot in
it.
Pardon me, he said, if I have overheard
words you were saying. I don't pretend to
understand what you are talking about or your
reference to Burgers, but I think I'm am
right in believing, This is what he called
being on his dignity

(24:18):
that you think I have no good.
Will show you. I have no signs on
my door. It was painted a week ago.
And I'm quite sure you have come to
the wrong house. As soon as I saw
your funny faces on the doorstep, I had
my doubts.
But to but treated as the right 1,
Tell me what you want done, and I
will try if I have to walk from
here to the east of east

(24:38):
and fight the wild wear rooms in the
last desert.
I had a great great grand uncle once
Bo took and... Yes. Yes. But that was
long ago, so gl. I was talking about
you. And I assure you. There is a
mark on the store. The usual 1 in
the trade or it used to be.
Burglar wants a good job, plenty bus excitement
and reasonable reward. That's how it's usually read.

(25:01):
You can say, expert treasure hunter instead of
burglary if you like. Some of them do.
It's all the same to us.
Gandalf told us there was a man of
the sort in these parts looking for a
job at once and that he had arranged
for a meeting here this Wednesday t time.
So... And then it goes on, Gandalf goes
on to defend his lie because that's just
straight up a lie, like, there's no

(25:22):
bilbo bilbo is not. Someone who was seeking
a job,
right this of this sort at all, which
is very very funny Gandalf is. Gandalf has
much more of the Nordic character of his
original kit. Is originally written and and the
conceived character,
than the
more virtuous version in, Lord of the Rings

(25:44):
But,
anyway, it's... It... Was... That was really cool
transition to me because Bilbo
is... He rises and he actually makes the
decision to go on an venture with them
without even knowing what it is. He's like,
I think you have the wrong house. But
let's say you got the right 1. I'm
gonna do this thing.
Yeah. That's that is by far the most

(26:04):
turkish side. That's like it's it just rolled
over anything that was there. The insult was
far too much. The, you know, sort of
the the music was building the foundation,
but the insult it just I'd put him
over the edge. And then the final sink,
the hook is the is the map, which
we'll get too later. But but this is
your... The at this I... This is the
height. This is what when he makes the
decision and he says he's gonna do it.

(26:27):
Let's go back to
the Misty Mountain song as that first point
because
love that song. We talked about the food.
We talked about the domestic.
I still don't know how Bilbo would have
that much food for him living alone in
that house. Unless see he was planning a
birthday party. I don't know, maybe there's... Well,
you have to remember they... He he takes
visitors sometimes, and he... The hobbits eat 6

(26:47):
meals a day. There's just gonna be you.
There's there's gonna be a lard...
And a storage of food. I'm... I have
no doubt that he probably depleted most of
it feeding everybody. But... Yeah. Right. Right. So
in in the that idea of dom of
it, sort of our our world
and and Tolkien makes the point we'll talk
about this in the extended podcast, which you
can get about going to the warning dot
com slash member.

(27:09):
The music is where
the the middle earth that he's creating in
his other notes. Right? And his others... Stories
in in Lu and Barren and and Gon
and Mel and Thing and all those other
characters,
it in ent into the hobbit very directly
in
the song.

(27:30):
So when we... When he gets into the
song, I think we see the things that
are indicative of,
you know, write what you know and what
he knows when it comes to the history
of a fantasy world of a you know,
Cosmology he's created. Is this these little parts.
And so when we read lines, like,
for ancient king and Elvis Lord, there many

(27:50):
a gl golden horde, they shaped and rot
and light they caught the hide and gems
on hilt of sword. And it just made
me think of
ancient king and Elvis shore, made me think
of single hoarding
think getting
the Si and then, you know, he didn't
put it in the hilt of a sword.
But then here, on silver necklaces, they strung

(28:11):
the flowering stars,
but that's not a coincidence that he mentions
flowering stars. Mh. On crowns, they hung the
dragon fire and twisted wire. They mesh the
light of moon and sun. That law... Those
lines are they're seen so... Such a direct
callback to what we read in the Si.
1 light of the moon and the sun,
the
the mesh... The the the Silver net necklaces

(28:33):
they strung the flowering stars on. Right? And
on crowns they hung right, the summer was
was burning them exactly. The cap of white
and the hanging hanging of... Lightning and crowns.
And, I mean, this is so really. I
have no doubt. The tolkien's
writing a story for children. But, of course,
he can't help himself to bring in these
elements from this...
When he... First writes said, you know, he's

(28:55):
not imagining this is connected with Lord of
the with what we now call The middle
of. But
But this is a product of his imagination.
And so in his world,
elves catch light and put it in gems
and in crowds. And and that's what he
did. That's what he that's what the dwarf
sing about.
And in his world,
apparently, Golf is is invented.

(29:18):
And
that the whole golf line. It just... It's...
It it's the the Tom moment of this.
Yeah. It sticks out a little bit,
like a like a like a like a
sore thumb. I don't know. Well, the first
time you read it, what did were you
like wait What? Like, I remember kinda of
going, oh, golf. Oh, like, okay. That seems
out of place. But again, I

(29:39):
first read it when I was... 9 years
old, and I thought it was hilarious. Yeah.
Okay. That, like, the idea of, you know,
funny is that
not to get too gory, but d are
pretty messy.
But the the idea of d a goblin
and knocking its head clean off and down
into a hole and inventing a game out
of it was to my probably mail, but

(30:02):
maybe not just bail
mind 9 year old mine was haul hilarious.
That laughed else out. When pairs read that.
So let me read this paragraph.
Where he talks about in invented golf. Yeah,
this is, again,
we're we're talking about
the this is at the point, but
they're talking about how, you know, Bilbo is,
you know, he's he might... Bilbo has been
scared and they're trying to say,

(30:24):
you know, he's he's got some gum in
them.
And this what Tolkien Road. If you have
ever seen a dragon in the pinch, you
will realize that this was only poetic
exaggeration applied to any hobbit, even to Old
Tu great grand uncle Bull bull
who was so huge for a hobbit that
he could ride a horse.
He charged the ranks of the goblins of
Mount Graham in the battle of the greenfield

(30:46):
fields and knocked their king, golf bulls head,
clean off, with a wooden club. It sailed
a hundred yards through the air and went
down a rabbit hole. And in this way,
the battle was won, and the game of
golf invented at the same moment.
That's a fantastic
imagination. But also in that like, he's combining

(31:09):
nineteenth twentieth century England with Yeah.
You know, a ferry story of Lore, with
Lore and goblins and in the fight, you
know, battles.
It's it's it's so tolkien. It's wonderful. Yeah.
Did you know though that golf bull wasn't
the first name he put in there for
the goblin king's
name.

(31:29):
Do you... Can you guess what it was?
You know the name.
And it has the word golf in it.
Finger.
Yes.
In the original manuscript will read the extended
podcast, he uses finger golf
as the name
Instead of golf, I'm so glad he changed
the I love golf in the character and

(31:51):
that
fact that wow this doesn't even sound like
a goblin name. Yeah. I no. It doesn't.
It doesn't But it's a testament to tolkien
that I would use such a line as
I just did because he's the 1 that
has shaped our imaginations. So powerfully in what
an Elvis name or a do ish name
or a goblin name might actually sound like.
Because he... He's the 1... He's the 1
that you... Has created a... You know, he's

(32:12):
applied his his love of pathology to,
to mid to mythic races and given us
sounds of words
So that's great.
I'm gonna bring up this point that, old
man reader in our discord chat made and
our exploring token.
Channel Right. Which you can only get to
by going to the 1 dot com slash
member. But he

(32:34):
he listened to
a
discussion on the hobbit which I haven't had
a chance to listen to because he just
posted this yesterday, I think? Yeah.
The... Where he discusses
certain things about the. By Michael Drought, who's
a well known tolkien's style. 1 of the
1 of the best tolkien's scholars in the
world. He was he was at Hills College,
and he gave a talk... I... And it's

(32:55):
to listen to So I'm gonna put the
link. Let me make a note put the
link below and the show notes link to
drought discussion.
But but old man reader, he free He
makes this point, and this is really interesting.
Drought calls the invention of golf a dad
joke that tolkien shared with his children probably
to groan.
But there is an academic issue behind it.

(33:17):
Golf is 1 of those words which have
no it. Ideology not even close.
But sometimes, words come from the name of
someone associated with the idea, like boycott, et
or me.
Drought
suspects that tolkien invented just such an et
ideology for Golf. The golf king's name, The
Goblin King's name was Golf B in earlier

(33:39):
drafts in Golfing.
Another little proof that the hobbit was anything,
but just the children's story, but it was
also a children's story because it it it
melted the 2 sides of it. Right?
So, for instance, Bilbo describes the mad adventures
that Gandalf inspired as is anything from climbing
trees, which is what little children would do
as something a a mad adventure there to
visiting us.

(33:59):
And so... Yeah. So he puts these things
in that are... This mesh of
High, medieval,
like, a goblin king with the battle the
head that, you know, his head getting chopped
off, but then it becomes an enema model.
And et to
It becomes part of the et ideology of
the word golf by throwing in golf ball,
because it doesn't have an et ideology. Nobody

(34:20):
knows where the word golf came from. I
did not know that. I'll put the link
below to the entire hour long discussion. That's
fantastic place I I wanna listen to that.
I came I like Michael Dr a lot,
and so I'm I'm looking forward to that.
So if you've ever wondered, like, why he
put this golfing thing in. It's 1 because
he loves words. 2 because he thought his
children would love it and 3 it's a
dad joke, and who among us with dads
don't love throwing dad jokes whenever and wherever

(34:41):
that we can is so true.
That is so true.
And then I gotta say, man. I love
the people, the the guys who are in
our in girls. Sorry.
Everybody.
Hate it 1. Guys means like both I
know and women. I know. I know. All
the folks, all the people, all the wonderful
sons and daughters. Okay. I'm gonna stop now.

(35:02):
Who are in our chat because they bring
up these things that I would never find.
I would never found Michael Dr discussion at
Hills College. Okay because it's not easy to
find. So anyway, there... That's probably more than
you ever want to know about golf. Alright.
Let's move on from the golf idea.
So so we have. Right. So so 1,
you have a high end at this Summer
And he brings that in. He have a

(35:23):
kind of lower dad humor of golf.
And then you have the consistent.
And as we get into it, like, I
I like the idea that you you threw
out there with the 3 reasons that pushed.
Bilbo
to his took your side.
And I think, you know, if you had
to nail down, I feel like

(35:44):
what what is the biggest thing that pushed
him in? It is is it his fear
of being noted as just a grocer? Is
it the insult? That was really what pushed
him over the edge the most.
Because he still has the fear, but he
doesn't
let it overtake him anymore.
Right. It's a, in the line right before
the 1 I read was
from glowing is the final insult that Gl

(36:06):
gives. He looks more like a grocer than
a burglar. Mh. Mh.
So...
And then Bilbo turns the handle and walks
in.
And I think the most important line about...
How he makes the decision and why to
answer your question is.
He suddenly felt he would go to... Without
bed and breakfast. To be thought fierce.

(36:28):
So he's willing to even agree to an
adventure that he doesn't know what the terms
of it are,
and be in and and in order to
be thought fierce. So he loves the music.
He gets drawn in by the music
He loves the maps to get thrown in
by the map later on, but it's really
this desire to be thought fierce. And to
me,

(36:49):
This is a core
rational desire for all free peoples.
It's the desire to be thought virtuous. Fierce
is a s for courageous.
And so
he is... He desires to be courageous and
to be thought courageous. Mh. Which is very
interesting. And that pushes him over the edge.

(37:10):
That's the turkish side, even more than the
exploration, even more than the maps,
But it's the map, III love that the
map. It's not the money.
It's not the It's not... I mean, the
the, you know, making a name for yourself
is 1 thing. But it's the map that's
the sort of the final straw. It's the
mer cherry on top that makes it that

(37:31):
much... Better that going out and seeing the
world is that took your side. That's the
that's the final, you know, the final puzzle
piece. You might have seen the whole pictures
right so far, better but it's not complete
until you add the idea that, the journey
is what I want to experience.
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
And the part that we're talking about, we've
referenced it a few times, so I thought
we should probably read it,

(37:53):
and that's when the map, is has been
gotten out. Thor dismiss the map the Gandalf
has found. Get off later explains why he
shouldn't dismiss it because he got it from
Thor father Rain.
But
he goes and just say 3 roar.
His grandfather's
throw, his father's 3.
Yeah.

(38:13):
So he got it from
lorraine. His father. No. No. His grandfather died.
Right. His grandfather dies for you. Right.
Yes. His father
died in the dungeons of the,
necromancer. Right. And that's where that's where Gandalf
got the map from But before we get
off as explained that, Thor is dismissive of

(38:34):
the map and Get says you you you
didn't note that it shows a secret entrance,
and it talks about the the height of
the entrance. Which is 5 feet high and
3 may walk a abreast, which if you
think about it is a very wide doorway.
Things 3 being able to walk a abreast,
means you're talking... Even if you're talking about
hobbits and stuff you're talking about at least
8 feet wide probably,

(38:55):
7 feet wide, couple feet per hobbit.
Or dwarf, and then 5 feet high. So
for us, it would be a very low,
long, low door.
Mh.
And then it says, it seems a great
big hold to me sq Bilbo who had
no experience of dragons and only of Hobbit.
He was getting excited and interested again. So
that he forgot to keep his mouth shut.

(39:16):
He loved maps. And in his hall, they're
hung a large 1 of the country round.
I love how that's capitalized the country round
with all his favorite walks marked on it
in red ink.
How could such a large door kept secret
from any everybody outside apart from the dragon?
He asked. He was only a little hobbit.
You must remember. What I love about that
too is that he's got this his favorite

(39:37):
walks marked in red on this massive map,
which is this this love of
is a is a direct call to Tok
himself, who was famous loved
walking the countryside and had it... Definitely had
his own favorite hikes and walks that he
would take. Mh. And so Bilbo is well,
tok is tolkien is definitely...

(40:01):
Channel his own
desires and put him in bilbo harp. So
so moving forward,
the... When Thor tells the story
of,
Sma,
and how sma, you know, comes and destroys
dale,
comes in, kills all the dwarves drives them
out, but those were are left takes over.

(40:22):
Another... And we made a point earlier if
the, sort of the you know, the the
the
high fantasy
comes in the Summer, and then you have
the kids
choke coming in with with
pop. Right? He's marrying, like, it it... It's
a it's a kid story, but adults can
read it. Is the way that I look
at it.
And we're not talking like shrek where it
puts in only humor adults can understand.

(40:44):
Things that are inappropriate.
1 of the lines that suck out to
me this time that Never thought of before
really
was
when he talks about why
the dragon
came
in the first place. So let me read
this this here. This is
Thor.
Speaking.
Altogether, those were good days for us and

(41:04):
the poorest of us had money to spend
end to end and leisure to make beautiful
things just for the fun of it not
to speak of the most marvelous and magical
toys.
The like of which is not to be
found in the world nowadays, so my grandfather's
halls became full of armor and jewels and
carving and cups, and the toy market of
dale was the wonder of the north.

(41:24):
Undoubtedly,
that was what brought the dragon.
And dragons steal gold and jewels, you know,
from men and Elves and Dwarves wherever they
can find them. And so this this whole
line... Like, he mentions
armor and jewels once, he mentions toys
twice in that 1.
And so
after the line

(41:46):
the toy market of Dale was the wonder
of the north. Immediately he says undoubtedly that
was what brought the dragon. Now I don't
think he means that it was... Just the
toys that brought the dragon. But to the
children listening and reading it,
that brings the, like, oh, yeah. The toys.
I know that the... That's that is the
important thing. The wonderful amazing toy market of
dale, which the dwarves were they're
kin into something that was... Thanks

(42:08):
something to be noted.
I thought that was really interesting that the
toys be are such an important part of
it.
I love that. And then and, on... This
is also
undeniably what 1 of the things that makes
the focus on the toys is what makes
this a children's story.
It's 1 of the signs I should say
that makes it children's right. Not the fact
that there's 2 lines about toys. But the

(42:30):
fact that that he's focused on the things
that fire up the, the imagination of Children.
Now gems and gold also fire up the
imagination, so he talks about those
but but he talks about magical toys too.
And he's... I I would I would point
out that tolkien here is a lot more
liberal with the use of... His term of
the term magic, then he is... It becomes

(42:51):
later on in lord of the rings. Although
he does use the term magic and lord
of the rings a few times. It does...
He's He's a lot more
he's a lot more guarded about that term
than he... But here he... In this book,
he just throws it around all over the
place. There's magic everything.
This is magic cuff links that don't come
off. Yeah. Magic magic diamond studs. Yep. Diamond

(43:12):
that
that don't don't come out. Which and another
proof that this is nineteenth century england and
all that brains like these studs that basically
button instead of buttons, they would each have
there'll be a set of studs that would
go down to hold your... Told because buttons
weren't attached permanently
to sure.
So this is clearly nineteenth century.

(43:33):
Everything. From that to the whistle of the
engine, which is a reference to, of course,
to troy.
Yeah. I'm still surprised. He didn't he didn't
take that 1 out. It's it's it's for...
It's to fire the imagination of children. There's
a there's a level to this book, which
is not. And III
have become to the opinion that especially with
the abandonment of his of his,

(43:54):
rewrite,
wouldn't was supposed to bring it more in
line with lord of the rings that tolkien
just
finished with that... Started with that and finished
with that. This is gonna be a Children's
book. Yes. I'm gonna connect it to lord
of the rings, but this is... This is
just a children's book.
And, you know, 1 of the 1 of
the gems I found from this annotated version
or the hopper that I never known before
was that,

(44:15):
tolkien liked the work of Arthur Ransom,
who's a author in the early 19 hundreds
who wrote
amongst a lot of home schoolers and other
other people that have written... Read a lot
of old literature,
the... There's a series of children's stories about
adventures of a a family of a children
that it become orphan called Swallows and Amazon's

(44:37):
and Arthur Ransom is the author of that
and Tolkien loved that In fact, that those
stories about their... This family of children remind
me very much of C s Lewis. I've
have no doubt C s Lewis wrote Red
Arthur at Ransom to having read both. You
know, the Na Chronicles have a... And the
dynamic of the 4 children, and this been
an adventure of children is is definitely an

(44:58):
Arthur Ransom.
That owes owes a lot. But apparently, Arthur
Ransom liked the Hobbit very much and tolkien
was very taken with the fact that he
that he liked it, and he was con,
and he was near the end of his
life, but he he actually
suggested a few edits that Tolkien took up
and edited Now, 1 of them was when
Gan, when Gandalf comments on Bilbo s and

(45:20):
run and
almost passing out.
Gandalf says, ex little fellow, but originally it
said ex little man and arthur ransom from
his con blessing home rights back to Tolkien.
And says, you know, did you mean to
say Man because he's not yet.
That's Tolkien says basically quite right. And they...
He he changed it? Although, funnily enough, he

(45:42):
left other references about a man in there,
he's referred to oblique as a man
in other places.
When Gandalf,
you know, they're talking about with Gandalf search
for a burglar or a hero or something.
So but anyway, in this particular case, ex
little fellow,
the... That line was from Arthur Ransom, which

(46:03):
is a cool note.
I didn't know and my my wife and
kids who love the Arthur Ransom book. As
well as the Amazon's books will be happy
to hear that.
Alright. So, as we close out this chapter,
as I just love how it ends
with...
I'll, I'll I'll read it.
Fight. Little fight. Right? Little. Where where where

(46:25):
he
where he where he says, hey, When you
go tomorrow,
I'll give you a good breakfast.
And and Thor is, like, before we go,
I suppose you mean, aren't you the burglar
it isn't sitting on the doorstep your job,
not to speak of getting inside the door,
but I agree about ben breakfast. I like
6 eggs of my ham when starting on
a journey, fried, not poached. And mind you

(46:46):
don't break them. They're I'm like, wow. Man.
These guys like,
like, he's he's in a, like, a 5
star hotel here like, ordering words the worst
guests. Yeah. They are. Yes. And then he
then he writes this. After all the others,
had ordered their breakfast without so much as
a please, which annoyed Bilbo very much because
you remember, like, he remembered his manners a
couple of times earlier in the story. And
so like, that that that's very important to

(47:08):
him. So regardless of his took side, please
and thank you, and welcome is is important
to him.
They all got
The hobbit had to find room for them
all and filled all his spare rooms and
made beds on chairs and sofa before he
got them all s and went to his
own bed.
Very tired and not altogether happy. 1 thing
he did make his mind up about was

(47:29):
not to bother to get very early and
cook everybody else's re did breakfast.
I love it's not as breakfast. You can
tell like, breakfast. It's it's spite. It's like,
I am so done with these doors. Did
It's a w breakfast now. You've taken all
my Steve cakes. You've taken all my ale
and porter and coffee and tea. And now
you're gonna... There's no way I'm making you

(47:49):
breakfast.
And he writes... The tu was wearing off
and he was not now quite so sure.
He was going on a journey in the
morning.
So, maybe the last
the last fire of Tu was that I'm
not making you breakfast anymore more than after
that, you know, maybe probably a little little
bit of regret insight for me this kind
of a host, but certainly,

(48:09):
Yep.
That was I do like over. I do
like how we have
the
first verse to the first to stan to,
the misty Mountains
song that he, hears Thor and Humming as
he goes to sleep, which gives him very
uncomfortable dreams
as Tolkien says,
but that song itself was if we remember,

(48:31):
that was the first spark of the turkish
ness that actually got him on the path
to Making the decision to to say that
he would go with them. And and accomplish
whatever the task was they had for him
as a burglar,
which... So it was it was great. And
that does lead me
to
the
section of a segment of our podcast we

(48:52):
sometimes had, have called if you like talking,
break. If you like talking.
No break. There we got a man. I'm
right here for you.
I was giving you a little run up
know. Was like, okay. Quickly Go open the
tab. There back. You if you like tolkien,
then
you, and tolkien's... I songs especially, which as

(49:13):
todd Jonathan and I have often mentioned are
an integral part of his work. He lets
Marry a chapter go by in either the
Hobbit or lord of the rings, in which
someone is not singing something. There's not a
song of some sort or being
or music being played, and someone And if
you like tolkien, then you will like the
work of

(49:33):
Ka commodity dave.
This is Latin.
3 words K Day Pro, which will will
link
here in the notes, and
they are a family,
who does
all kinds of, both Aqua capella and,
original and orchestrated works. And they have taken
the Liberty

(49:54):
They started out many years ago by after
the Hobbit movie came out by doing a
full version of the Misty Mountain song. You
noticed in the movie, they sing 2 or
3 versus. I think, a 2 or 3
stands as I think, 3 stands as. But
the song is much longer and K commodity
D.
Does those does a ton of the of

(50:15):
toll. And in fact, they go through my...
1 of my favorites that they do is
the lament,
by gala called The.
And there's all sorts of... There's all sorts
of du songs and Lord Ring songs. They
also have other songs. They do some religious
music and others, other kinds of music. They
even do video game you. They did a
couple songs from,

(50:36):
from Skyrim or elder scrolls. Mh. And because
it has it has very... They're very... They
have a, a number of male voices in
their family, which are very deep and so
they do these great w
imitation. The song of Du is a fantastic
1 too. So anyway, if you can you
can out... You can... Preview all their songs
on Youtube or you can go and buy

(50:57):
their their music, on their own channel or,
lot of their music is on Apple
And, anyway, if you like tolkien, I think
most of you will like the their work
of the, of a number of tolkien's songs.
Right. And and it's clear I mean, they've
got 1177
paying Patreon
subscribers right now. So it's not like they're

(51:17):
very small. Like, that's that's actually pretty good
for Patreon for just a. Okay. A a
niche kind of music group. Right? Yep. Very
they're they're very niche. That's where they're British.
And
they... But they... I love I love their
voices,
especially with their were songs.
And, yeah. So

(51:39):
recommend... I definitely would recommend where are they
located. Do you know? I don't know. And
they've hidden it well. I did a little
research to see if I could figure out
where the family lives, but
I can't... Yeah. So I'm not quite sure,
but they are a family, and
and
so, anyway, And... So they have a soft
spot for me. They're a larger family that

(51:59):
I I Am happy to support. And I
think... I think a lot of our listeners
would like their music. Maybe all of maybe
many of you have already heard them. But
in any case,
we'll need to try... I I wonder... I
think it's gonna be a way we can
get them on the show. Would be great.
It'd be fun. I will try and find
you guys talk.
Well well, thanks for being that. Take a
shot at it. Yeah.

(52:20):
Alright. We're gonna get into our extended podcast.
Of course. Boner dot com slash patreon. You've
heard me say a billion million times. How
important is it? Well, it's important. Keeps us
going. Gives people a listening. Also, like subscribe
if you've gotten through this the whole way.
We do appreciate that.
I been a asleep, or you have perseverance.
Right, There's no rings of power title in
here, so Youtube doesn't throw into their algorithm

(52:42):
and, rank it up into the charts. So
between between this here,
and and our downloads, where... You're... You few
thousand people who listen to us. We appreciate
you very much. And
we're gonna jump into our extend podcast. Talk
about a question from f about
how much
is the Hobbit really in Middle. And you
saw in our in our title last week
was, the Hobbit was not originally Middle. It

(53:03):
was not. The way that he wrote it,
he just wrote what he knew and so
so things from Middle It got injected into
it. But as a, like, part of the
same world as Fin golf
and because you, obviously, Fin golf was gonna
be the original mitch Right The name of
it, like, when he was gonna give the
goblin the the golf name from Fin, which
was
not exactly part of Middle earth, but the
game So we're gonna look at that. We're
gonna look at the

(53:25):
that p fragment a little bit.
And go from there. So everybody, join us
there. 1 dot com slash member. We'll see
you on the other side.
And goodbye for loader.