February 12, 2025 • 65 mins
How have fairies evolved in their representations from pre-Christian times to the modern day? In Episode 71, Ivy Lewis—veteran, war artist, novelist, and folklore specialist—explores the roles of fairies across cultures, their liminal existence, and their modern portrayals in contemporary literature. We also discuss demonic possession and how medieval Christian views of the afterlife have shaped modern interpretations of fairies. Additionally, we examine the connection between the natural world and fairy tales, as well as Ivy’s debut novel, Ferrishyn, a reimagined folklore romance. Don't miss this fascinating episode!
Find Ivy's books here: www.ivylewisauthor.co.uk
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Episode Transcript
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Vanessa Rogers (00:13):
Welcome folksy folks.
Welcome to Fabric of Folklore.
I am Vanessa Y.
Rogers, your hostess of thepodcast where we unravel the
mysteries of folklore.
Our show is all about origins.
We're pulling on threads thatlead us back as far back as that
thread will take us.
Whether that thread is an urbanlegend and mythological story or
(00:35):
a superstition, we want tounderstand its history and its
context.
One of the previous episodes,our guest Dr.
Miguel Roy talked aboutsuperstitions and that was
episode 65.
One of the superstitions was notto whistle at night in Africa,
so as not to attract.
Later, I came across anothersuperstition about whistling in
(00:55):
Australia, only specifically ina graveyard.
So a ghost wouldn't follow youhome.
Sailors also have a superstitionabout whistling.
They believe that whistlingchanges the wind and they,
sailors often worked in theatersbecause they were good at knots
and ropes and rigging.
And so actors began discouragingthe act of whistling because
(01:18):
they believed it was bad luck.
In Ukraine if if you whistlethey believe you, you go broke.
I had a hard time pinpointingany sort of reason except that
whistling seemed to beuniversally bad Luck globally.
And I love to say this show isabout building bridges, but it's
also about connecting dots tosee where those dots lead you.
(01:40):
And on this folklore podcast,I'm always amazed at the wisdom
with which my guests bring, andyou will be too.
So make sure you're hitting thatsubscribe button, whether you're
watching on YouTube or you'relistening on your favorite
podcasting platform, like Appleor Spotify or iHeartRadio,
whatever it is you listen to.
So you get notifications on aweekly basis.
When our podcast drops, we havea fantastic show for you today.
(02:01):
You're going to love this one.
Ivy Lewis is our guest.
She's an RAF veteran, whichstands for Royal Air Force.
She's a war artist.
Her war collection is held inthe Royal Air Force Museum.
She specialized in folklore andreligion in the Middle Ages and
her undergraduate and herpostgraduate degree.
She is the author of a novella,and Where Will You Go, Dedian?
(02:24):
Dedian.
Dedian, right?
Ivy Lewis (02:27):
Gone Dedian.
Vanessa Rogers (02:28):
And as well as her debut novel, Ferishen, set
to release at the end ofNovember 2024, it's romance set
in a futuristic war zone,blending elements of sci fi and
folklore into what she's callingfey fee.
Our show today will be aboutconnecting lots of dots between
place lore, how fairies arerepresented through the lens of
(02:50):
medieval characters.
Christian Linds and what thatmeans for modern representation
in Fae literature today.
We'll be talking about theintersection between the natural
world and the fairy tales, aswell as Ivy's books and how she
reimagined folklore in herupcoming works.
So thank you so much for joiningus, Ivy.
Hi, thank you for having me.
(03:12):
So let's get into Your journeyabout being a novelist.
How did that occur?
Ivy Lewis (03:21):
Yeah, interesting question.
So, probably like lots of peoplewho write books, I've been
writing for a long, long time.
So I've been writing since I wasabout, um, 15, 16.
So that's a good 20 odd yearsnow.
Um, I've always written just forfun, just for the pure enjoyment
of it, um, as a lot of us do.
Um, and the, the book Ferrishin,which is out, um, at the end of
(03:44):
this month, I actually wrote thefirst draft ten years ago, um,
when I got back fromAfghanistan.
Um, so I'd, I'd written it andkind of played around with it,
sat on it for a while, um, andthen, you know, life goes on as
it does.
Um, And I was due to start a PhDin creative writing, um, last
(04:06):
September on, on pretty much thetopic we're talking about today.
Um, and so as part of my PhD,um, application, I sent my, my
draft of ferret into my oldprofessor, um, so that he could
write, you know, he could writea supporting statement for me to
do the PhD.
And he read the book and he saidto me, it's actually pretty
good.
And I thought, well.
You know, he's, he's not thekind of guy who's gonna, you
(04:28):
know, gonna lie to me aboutthese things.
So I went back, I revisited, Istarted playing with it again.
Got a little bit sucked in, sentit off to publishers, got a
publishing deal, and then went,Oh, whoops, now I've got to
choose between, between the PhDand writing.
Um, you know, with the timebeing what it is.
Um, so obviously I, I went withFerriton, um, and kind of a year
later, here we are.
(04:48):
Um, so I guess I'm a little bitof an accidental novelist.
It really wasn't my intention.
Vanessa Rogers (04:56):
Well, so you, your, um, degrees, what were,
what are your degrees in?
Ivy Lewis (05:03):
So, um, my first degree is in ancient world
studies, which is, is quite abroad title because it's, it is
a fairly broad, um, spread.
So, um, for the first couple ofyears I did Latin and Greek.
So we learned ancient languages.
Um, I then picked uppaleography.
Um.
I'm just smashing old Englishfor my undergraduate, um,
(05:25):
ancient history, things aroundmythology, um, the early middle
ages, and I really got quitehooked, um, on the middle ages
in that degree.
So I spent my third year, um.
Studying kind of the morefolklore elements going into
like voyages in the other world.
So the afterlife, um, hence, youknow, my interest in kind of
(05:46):
purgatory and hell and that kindof thing.
Demonic possession rituals,which I went and I looked at
from all the way back fromancient Assyria, um, through
Judaism into Christianity andkind of the more modern period
as well, with almost like quitean anthropological look at it.
So my, my first degree was quitebroad.
And then, um, when I did myMasters, I settled into, into
(06:08):
the Middle Ages, um, and demonicpossession and exorcism was kind
of my, my bag, which is how I, Igot into folklore, because
obviously you start studyingone, you get drawn into the
others.
Um, and I, I worked on.
Um, old English text,paleography again, manuscript
studies, um, at the BritishLibrary, so obviously that, you
know, paleography is, isessential for the reading.
(06:29):
Um, and yeah, that's, that'skind of, kind of where I ended.
Vanessa Rogers (06:34):
And did a lot of this research inspire you to
start writing your, your novels?
Ivy Lewis (06:40):
I think so, yeah, I think, I think it's just, um,
you know, as a, as a kid I'dalways been really into fantasy.
I think quite a lot of kids are,like Lord of the Rings, I was
that generation, you know, Idon't know if you've ever heard
the, the radio adaption, maybenot because kids are in America,
but in, in the UK there was aradio adaption, um, of the story
and that was something that Iloved as a kid.
Um, and so obviously I, I kindof, I read a lot of fantasy
(07:01):
books and then I was really intohistory and, you know, the, the
school that I went to.
Again, over here in the UK, youkind of have the two schooling
systems.
You have the state school, whichis kind of where, where everyone
goes if they're not rich.
And then you have obviouslyprivate schools, which are paid
for.
So I went to a state school, um,and I really loved history, and
I really loved everythingacademic, but I didn't get the
(07:21):
opportunity to learn, um,ancient languages or anything
like that.
So when I had that opportunityat university, um, that was
something that I really wentfor.
Um, and I just think it's the.
I love folktales because they'rekind of a little bit unfinished.
They're sort of, um, smallsnapshots of bigger stories, and
then they feed into biggermythologies, and then there's
(07:43):
like, there's worlds withinworlds, and then it throws up
the really big questions aroundgood and evil, which obviously
you get into if you get intotheology as well.
And I think, I think that'sReally what feeds into my
writing that kind of, I thinkit's, it's almost a way of me
framing my own thoughts aboutthe world and the nature of
humanity and all that stuff.
So yeah, it's, it's big ideasinto, um, compressed into the
(08:07):
word on the page, I guess.
Vanessa Rogers (08:09):
One of the things that you also mentioned
that you studied was ecocritical theory and eco
Semiotics I those werecompletely foreign words to me.
So can you explain what that is?
Ivy Lewis (08:23):
Yeah, so this is, this is where we dip into my PhD
stuff.
So this is kind of the area, Imay write a book about it, I'm
undecided yet, but this may bethe area that I take forward.
I may go and do the PhD, whoknows.
Um, so eco critical theory ismore about how we interpret
literature.
So, um, how we, how we readtexts and how they might relate
(08:44):
to, um, the world around us withan eco critical concern.
So um, one example that I alwaysthink is quite an easy one
because it's quite well known isif we think of the film Avatar,
which again has been huge overthe years, it's got that real,
what I would say is an ecocritical angle.
We're talking about thedestruction of resources.
colonialization, you know, um, areal anthropocentric view of the
(09:08):
world rather than a biocentric.
So, um, I mean, we can, we candelve into other things.
So for instance, Like the fallof the house of, of Usher is eco
critical in terms of it's anentropic system, but that's, you
know, it's going a bit deep,Moby Dick is another one, you
know, classic literature, which,which would have an eco critical
kind of, um, aspect to it.
But it's, it's works that havesomething to say around the
(09:30):
natural world, our, um,interactions with it.
positive or negative, um, and,you know, sometimes these are
intentional, um, commentariesand criticisms, which is
obviously what I've done with mywork.
So, ferishing is very much anintentional criticism.
Um, other times they're, they'reless so, other times it's just
hinted out or it's just, youknow, maybe it's the, it's, it's
the, uh, it's the popular thingto be, to be talking about.
(09:54):
So it's kind of got drawn intothe work that way.
And then when we think aboutecosemiotics, so again, it's a
relatively new discipline.
It's, um, it's branching offfrom semiotics, which we'll have
all come across at some point,um, in our life.
We come, we come across it inday to day life.
So, um, you know, for instance,you see the McDonald's M, you,
you know, instantly what it is.
(10:14):
It doesn't say McDonald's, itdoesn't say food, it doesn't say
any of those things, but you seethat M and you, you know what it
is.
It's a sign.
It's a branch of semiotics.
Um, so ecosemiotics is about howthe natural world looks to, um,
the species that inhabit it.
So, um, for instance, a simpleway of looking at that, um, is
(10:36):
we, we talk about a conceptcalled the umwelt, which just
means the environment.
Um, but it's, that's, that'swhat we're talking about in
ecosemiotics.
If we think about a garden, youknow, just your average garden,
it's probably got some grass init.
It's probably got hedge, maybeit's got fence, maybe in the
autumn it's got some fallenleaves.
If we were to put anecosemiotics head on that and to
look at it from, um, ahedgehog's perspective, to
(10:59):
consider the umwelt from ahedgehog's perspective, we'd be
thinking, right, what, what do Ineed?
I need, um, some leaf litterbecause it's got insects in that
I can eat.
Um, I need some shelter.
to hide from predators.
Um, and then maybe I'll look atthe fences that are around this
garden and are they accessible?
Can the hedgehog get throughthem?
Um, are they stopping thehedgehog from getting in and
(11:19):
out?
Um, so it's, it's a way ofconsidering the environment, um,
from a, from a particularspecies point of view.
So where it became quiteinteresting to me and we'll, and
I'm sure we'll get onto it laterin the pod, is how, um, fairies,
you know, folkloric creatures,how they interact with their
environment, because the two areinextricably linked, like you
(11:39):
can't have folklore withoutenvironment.
So my, my area of interest isessentially the umwelt of
fairies.
You know, what do fairies need?
Where do they inhabit?
Um, what things, um, do theyneed to, to flourish?
What things send them away?
If we were to, if we were to dosomething different, you know,
would we be encouraging fairiesinto a particular environment in
a hypothetical way?
(11:59):
So that's, that's kind of wheremy area of interest lies in
that.
Vanessa Rogers (12:05):
And there was a paper you sent me that had, um,
that talked a lot about bogs andthat there's a lot of stories
around bogs.
Can you, can you tell ourlisteners about that?
Ivy Lewis (12:15):
Yes, it's a really, it's really interesting research
paper and it's about place law.
Um, and, and bogs are quite a,quite a good one because I think
they have, It's quite a common,I think, I think you mentioned
actually didn't you on anearlier pod about Will o the
Wisps and being a nation as wellas, you know, in the British
Isles.
Um, but it's, it's about howplace interacts with the lore
(12:36):
and how lore interacts with theplace.
So, You've got a marshland, um,or a bog where people have, um,
you know, historically gone,potentially got into danger,
lost their lives, um,disappeared.
And so, from a, a sort of a, um,a folkloric perspective, a story
(12:56):
will be created to explain whythat happens.
Um, we know quite often in bogswe have the phenomenon of marsh
gas, so we see the little lightsthat are described as, as will o
the wisp.
So, one of the stories that.
that tends to come up aroundthese marshlands is that, you
know, the will o the wisps, theylead you off, um, lead you
astray and you go off into themarsh and you, you die.
There's stories about ablacksmith as well, isn't there?
(13:16):
Um, and there's, you know,there's various other things,
but they're essentially the samekind of thing.
You know, marshes are dangerousplaces and they're dangerous
places because this folkloriccreature, um, is there and it's
going to harm you.
So that's one way ofinterpreting it.
But equally, the other way ofinterpreting it is to flip it
the other way around.
You've already got a dangerousplace and you have to come up
(13:36):
with a reason for it to bedangerous.
Um, and so where, where that'squite interesting is, is that's
the interaction between placelaw and folklore, um, and how,
how environments Some specificplaces give rise to particular,
um, folkloric beliefs, whichprobably explains why we have
(13:56):
this commonality of belief,sorry, um, across location, you
know, i.
e.
marshes are the same throughoutthe world, therefore they're
going to have similar kind of,um, phenomena, people are going
to die in them, we kind of needthis, this explanation behind
them.
So it's, it's a reallyinteresting way of, of reading
place, um, and it's an ecosemiotic way of reading place.
Vanessa Rogers (14:17):
It makes me think, you know, we had that
fairy tale flip episode aboutthe, the, the blacksmith, but
also, um, the ChristianAnderson's, uh, the girl who
tried on a loaf and she fallsinto a bog.
Down into the land underneathwith the the marshwoman and also
(14:38):
the devil so I had never likeplaced that piece that together
as Bogs are dangerous places andthe will of the wisp.
That's interesting.
You're you're putting piecestogether for me
Ivy Lewis (14:51):
So you've got the other bit that may interestingly
describe that story as well.
So if you think of the goingdown, and we'll get onto this
later, so, you know, fairies arecommonly described as coming
from under the ground, whetherthrough through she mounds, um,
St Martin's land, as they'rereferred to in one tale, you
know, lands beneath, which iswhere we kind of get this
vaguely link with hell, but notquite hell, um, always to kind
(15:11):
of a kind of other world.
Um, so it's, yeah, it all, itall pieces together, um, in
various different ways.
Vanessa Rogers (15:18):
Oh, so in my head I had never, I, I guess
I've never come across a storywhere fairies come up from the
ground, um, may So that'sinteresting.
Can you, can you tell us one ofthose stories just so in case
any of our listeners also arelike myself?
Ivy Lewis (15:35):
No, it's fine.
So, um, so, um, if, if we thinkof fairy, so, so fairy and, and
you, you probably possiblydiscussed this on other pods,
but if we, if we think aboutwhat a fairy is, a fairy is
essentially, um.
a secular supernatural being.
So it's a supernatural beingoutside of any organized
(15:55):
religion.
So, you know, Christianity is anice easy one.
Within the organized religion wehave, um, you know, God and the
devil.
We have angels.
It's fairly straightforward.
But then you also have this kindof separate secular category,
which is where the fairies sit.
Um, and if we think back to, um,even like ancient Greece, you've
got myriads, dyriads, you know,things that kind of sit a little
(16:15):
bit outside of that.
Um, to link it back to, to whatyou're talking about with, with
under the ground, probably themost important link there is to
think about the Tuatha Dé Danannfrom Ireland.
So the Tuatha Dé Danann arethought of as being a, um, a
race of kind of elder gods, um,and they inhabit the land of
(16:39):
Ireland.
Ireland's a bit of a strange,um, strange country in that it
doesn't really have any originstories.
It's always considered to havekind of been there, um, you
know, and various differentpeople.
inhabit it.
So, the Tuatha Dé Danann are,um, this, this kind of magical
race of demigods, gods, and theybecome associated with, um, she
(17:02):
mounds.
So, so she is the word for moundin, in Ireland, um, and it's,
it's, um, also becomes the namefor fairy.
So you would, you would call afairy a she in Ireland.
But when you're talking aboutshe, what you're generally
talking about is the Tuatha DéDanann.
Um, so we think about them asin, as inhabiting these mounds,
these green mounds.
Um, so coming from under theground.
(17:25):
Equally, um, if we look backinto medieval, um, texts and we
think about the, the greenchildren, have you come across
that story?
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
William of Newburgh, I thinkit's William of Newburgh, I'd
have to check my notes, but, um,in, in Woolpit, in fairly near
to where I live, actually, thetwo green children, when they're
(17:45):
found, they're considered to befairy children, um, and the, the
little boy pines away and dies.
And the girl obviouslyflourishes and survives.
And when she's asked about whereshe comes from, she describes
coming from a land beneath theearth, which is called St.
Martin's Land.
So there's a really strongassociation with fairies coming
from beneath the ground.
Um, in various differentstories, if you think about the
(18:07):
romances, medieval romances,quite often there's a portal in
a hill.
Um, which takes you through to,um, Elfheim or Elfland,
whichever way you want to callit.
So yeah, it's a really, um, areally strong association, but
if we were to find, at least, atleast in the British Isles, and
I can only really speak for theBritish Isles, if we were to, to
really find an origin for it,we'd probably talk about the
she, um, and the Tuatha DéDanann in Ireland.
Vanessa Rogers (18:28):
So interesting, because I've heard of the fairy
rings, but not the mounds, but Iguess a lot of times the rings
are maybe around a mound?
Ivy Lewis (18:36):
Yeah, some, I mean, sometimes fairy rings are again,
it takes us into, it takes us alittle bit into ecosemiotics
again, because what we'retalking about is a, is a
mushroom ring, right?
Um, and it's how, how we relateto, the natural world.
So when we look at the naturalworld, we, we look at it and we
still read it in, well some ofus do anyway, we still read it
in a folkloric way.
Um, so yeah, the rings can be dowith, can be to do with portals,
(19:00):
the mounds generally that we'retalking about are burial mounds.
So again, you've got thatassociation with, with the dead.
Um, so there's, there's quiteoften a big crossover.
Of belief, um, and we couldprobably drive ourself to
distraction trying to find somekind of Like continuity, you
know some kind of textualthread.
Um, but yeah, there's a lot of alot of mixed beliefs
Vanessa Rogers (19:22):
Okay, so we're on the topic of fairies So one
of the things that you looked atin your work is the idea that
they represent in differentcultures Can you tell us a
little bit about that?
Ivy Lewis (19:34):
Yeah, so I mean We've talked about the Tudor Nan,
obviously, who I think arereally, really important.
When we think about fairies inall cultures, we're going back
to that original definition.
We're going back to that idea ofa secular, supernatural being.
And that's pretty muchapplicable throughout.
(19:55):
Sometimes they are conceived ofas a pagan deity.
That's, you know, that's gone onto become this secular
supernatural, which the tour deDanana.
Again, I can't speak to othercultures, but there'll be plenty
of other examples of this.
But It's, it's alwaysinteresting to think about the
role that they serve for aculture.
(20:16):
So whenever we think aboutfairies, we're thinking
generally, generally, generallyabout a creature, um, that is on
its way out, but hasn't quitebeen pushed out of
consciousness.
So it's usually either becauseof, um, an ethnic reason.
So a different ethnic group hasshoved them out of their natural
homeland.
It can be for a religiousreason.
(20:37):
So when we think aboutChristianity coming into the
British Isles and pushing outolder beliefs, um, or the, the
other reason, which I supposeis, is fairly relevant now as
well, is to do withindustrialization and post
industrialization.
So the Victorian sensibilityaround fairies was around this
feeling that the world wasbecoming, um, you know,
mechanized, industrialized, wildspaces were diminishing.
(21:00):
So there was this kind of, um,renewed interest in fairies,
which ironically that, that kindof is.
today, right?
It's a very, a very similar, um,feel and environment.
Um, so they, They kind of, theyserve lots of roles within
culture, but they serve a roleof being other in many, many
(21:20):
different ways in terms of theirliminality, in terms of their
morality, you know, they're kindof this thing that's sort of
familiar to us, but just standsa little bit outside.
And folk and fairy tales give usa way to, to examine our own
culture in that way.
Vanessa Rogers (21:38):
And you say that the way that medieval Christians
worldview, uh, that thatworldview affects how we see and
interpret fairies in moderntimes.
Can you talk to us about that?
Ivy Lewis (21:54):
Yeah.
And I, and again, I would say,you know, this is very much,
I'm, I'm looking from a, WesternBritish Isles worldview is going
to be very very different if wego further across the world and
again, obviously in areas thataren't Christianized for want of
a better word.
But if we think about, um,Medieval Christianity, which in
itself is quite a fascinatingreligion to study, we look at
(22:17):
how the different the schema ofthe world was developed.
So it's quite important to, tothink about where our world sits
and where we go when we die,which in all honesty in
Christianity is one of thebiggest focuses, you know,
where, where'd you go when youdie?
That's kind of what life isabout, right?
You're either going to heaven oryou're going to hell.
So hell is, probably shouldn'tuse the term, but hell is
(22:40):
invented, for want of a betterterm, during the Maccabean
Revolt at around 160 BC.
Um, it's when people firststarted thinking about, um, an
apocalyptic, way of viewing theworld.
So before then, you had, um,talk about Sheol, the grave, um,
and it's translated variousdifferent ways.
(23:01):
It's sometimes translated ashell, sometimes translated as
the grave, but that kind of realthinking of hell as this place
of damnation that you go to, orseparation as it is more
accurately, wasn't reallyconceived of until the Maccabean
Revolt.
So we've got that.
Um, obviously the idea ofheaven, you know, where God is,
where all good things are beingin union.
(23:22):
with God.
And we've got these, these twoplaces, but this is slightly
problematic.
It's slightly problematic inthat there are quite a few
conditions you have to fulfillin order to get to heaven.
Um, but equally, you're probablynot going to be bad enough to go
to hell.
So you kind of need to gosomewhere else because we're
obviously talking CatholicChristianity here rather than,
(23:43):
um, Protestant Christianity or,or any other form.
So, a way of solving thisproblem was to come up with the
Doctrine of Purgatory, i.
e.
this kind of waiting room thatyou can go to, which was, um,
uh, solidified in the 13thcentury?
12th century, I think, or 13thcentury.
(24:06):
This idea of a waiting roomwhere you go, if you've been
pretty good, not quite goodenough to get to heaven and, you
know, not awful enough to go tohell, you've not got original
sin, you've not got someterrible sin, but you're still a
bit rubbish and you still needto kind of work a bit to get to
heaven.
That's great.
We've got then these threeplaces.
We've got hell, we've gotheaven, we've got purgatory.
(24:28):
Um, but it also throws upanother problem.
So obviously theologians, thisis why medieval Christianity is
really, really important andquite interesting because they,
they think about the bigproblems that they, they really
think about good and evil and,you know, and the condition of
souls and this, this massiveproblem of evil.
Um, so you've got this othercategory of people.
You've got, um, good people whowere born before.
(24:52):
the advent of Jesus.
So you've got holy men who wouldnot have been baptized,
therefore still had originalsin, but actually were without
any other sin.
So there was a problem of whereto put them essentially.
So in the harrowing of hell,Jesus goes down and he pulls up,
um, the fathers as they'reknown.
Um, and it's like, well, wheredid we put them, we can't put
(25:14):
them in heaven because they'vegot original sin, they're not
baptised.
Um, so this is where the idea ofthe limbo of the fathers was
developed, so the limbus, um,patrum.
So if you are this, you know,this holy man who's not been
baptised, you go, you go tolimbo, you're not, um, in
communion with God, you're stillseparate from God, but you're
not suffering as such, onlysuffering in that you're not in
(25:35):
communion with him.
And they go there.
Um, and then there's anotherproblem, which is kind of a more
practical problem.
And I think, I think, you know,purgatory is quite a practical
problem.
It's for probably for the likesof you and I, you know, people
who are not, who are not saints,who are not excellent.
Um, the, a very practicalproblem is what happens to
children who are born withoriginal.
(25:57):
but are born before they'rebaptised.
So, sorry, born before they're,sorry, die, born with original
sin, die before they'rebaptised.
That was me making a reallyimportant point there in a
really bad way.
Um, so you've got this child whohas committed no life sin, you
know, they've not done anythingevil, they've not committed any
crimes, um, but because they'venot been baptised, they can't
get to heaven.
(26:18):
And they also can't go topurgatory, because they've not
been baptised.
So there was this massiveproblem, you know, what do we do
with these, with these children?
Where do they go?
Um, and so this is where theydeveloped a second concept of
limbo, which is the limbuspuerorum, the limbo of the
children.
And that's where these, theselittle children go.
And you read, like, really,really sad stories of Parents
(26:41):
burying their unbaptizedchildren under the eaves of
churches so that when the waterruns off the roof, they feel
like their child is beingbaptized.
It's really, really, reallyheartbreaking stuff.
So there's this Real, um,there's this real need to kind
of systematize the world, youknow, we've got Earth, we've got
the living, where does everyonego when they die?
(27:02):
How does this fit in aroundgood, around evil, um, you know,
and, and really setting out thisschema.
of the world.
Now where this is, and this islike a really long winded
explanation to get back to youroriginal question, so where this
is important is where do we thenput fairies?
Where do we put these folkloricbeings?
Where do they sit within thisschema of who goes up and who
(27:26):
goes down?
And the general feeling aroundfairies is that they are too
good for hell and that they'retoo bad for heaven.
And then there's this wholeproblem, they're obviously not
baptised, so they're not goingto go, you know, to purgatory.
They're probably not going to goto limbo either.
Um, and I think there's more ofa sense of, you know, they're
not dead.
So we can't, kind of, we can'tput them there either.
(27:48):
They're this being that kind ofstraddles the world between the
living and the dead.
Um, and so they're a realproblem in many, many ways, you
know, some texts you'll see theminterpreted as ghosts.
So, um, Dando's dogs or, um,Herlihy's, obviously a later
text, but it's got its originsort of in, um, Heliquin and
(28:09):
stuff like that, the host of thedead.
Um, Which probably harksSluwishy, you know, a kind of a
fairy host of the dead, but theyare this, this real problematic
group of creatures, um, for the,for the medieval world.
And consequently, pulling thatforward, because obviously the
Western world is seen generallynow through a Christianized
(28:31):
lens, you know, even down to ourlaws and the way we operate in
the world.
We still kind of have thisfeeling, um, of, of fairies
being slightly liminal, morallygray creatures that are maybe a
little bit beyond the system ofthings, even though they are
very, you know, they're, they'reabout as natural as they come in
terms of their relationshipswith the natural world.
They sit very much outside thehuman world.
(28:52):
Um, and I think, I think that'swhy.
They're still quite interesting,and it's still quite important
to recognize the influence ofChristianity on, on that way of
seeing them.
Vanessa Rogers (29:01):
Where did they play, like, where did they go
when they die in the, theCatholic medieval Christian
view?
Like, did they just not goanywhere?
Ivy Lewis (29:11):
Wow, this is, you know, this is the peculiarity of
fairies, you know, do they die,is, is one question.
Oh, right.
We don't know.
Do, you know, do they die?
Is St Martin's Land, which wetalked about earlier, is this,
you know, this whole other realmof existence that we think of as
fairy, um, or, or are theyghosts?
Are they, are they ghosts thatwere too bad even for hell,
(29:32):
which some of them are conceivedof as being, you know, I think,
I think it's Herm or Herla.
Might even be dando.
One of them is too bad for hell,you know, hell rejects them so
they're doomed to troop theworld forever.
And this is what, you know, Idon't think, and someone may
come on here later and correctme, but I don't think there's
ever been any concrete answerof, you know, what we do with
these creatures.
And I think that's what makesthem so interesting, because
they don't really fit.
(29:53):
In that scheme.
Um, you know, they're notangels.
They're not demons.
Vanessa Rogers (29:57):
So you also look at a demonic possession.
And I know that this is aspecialty of yours.
So just, just like a, a, ashortened version, because you
mentioned before, maybe havingyou come on and talk I'm
primarily about this topicbecause this is a fascinating
topic.
We had someone, I had a gueston, his name is eluded me right
(30:18):
now, who came on and talkedabout the books and, um, and
Jewish folklore, which isfascinating.
And it's just one little, uh,one little element of demonic
possession.
Um, so.
Tell us about how demons and theplacement of fairies and
medieval Christian worldviewworked.
Ivy Lewis (30:38):
Okay, so the interesting thing about
possession, um, is, is, or wasto me, not really so much even
in the phenomena itself.
There are academics who studythat.
Barbara Newman is fantastic.
She talks about the role ofdemoniac women.
Um, you know, how that fits inand, and this kind of stuff.
Um, we can talk about the DesertFathers going off into, um, into
the desert to do battle, forwant of a better word, with
(30:59):
these demons and, and the rolethat that serves within
Christianity.
But the interesting thing aboutdemonic possession is the
exorcism ritual that comes withit.
So there has been a form ofpossession and can, can we
define what a demon is?
Sorry.
Can we define what a demon is?
Yeah, so it all varies betweencultures.
(31:21):
So if we're going Christian,then it's a fallen angel.
Um, it's, you know, it's, it'sLucifer, the clan, um, you know,
the book of Enoch, therebellion, the fall, that kind
of stuff.
Devils are sometimes seen asbeing kind of like minor league,
um, kind of nasties, which arenot quite the same as the
angels, but Lucifer and hisbunch are, are fallen angels.
(31:42):
Um, there's a whole, whole otherthing that I think is for
another day.
Um, but if we think about, um,Other cultures, for example,
Assyria, um, a demon is moresimilar to kind of being a, uh,
demigod, like a, a creature thathas power to do good for you or
to do evil, but is not reallyassociated in this, this big
(32:05):
good versus evil worldview,because obviously that's not the
worldview that they held.
So that, again, that's what'squite peculiar about
Christianity.
It gives you those distinctpolarities, good and evil.
Um, but you know, we go back toancient Assyria, You've got a
headache, or, you know, your cowdies, maybe it's a bad demon
that causes that to happen, andso you might want to perform a
(32:27):
ritual to appease the demon, getrid of them.
Um, Lilith, for instance, who isobviously mentioned in the
Bible, she comes from Assyria,and she's a whole other
classification of their demon.
So there's, you know, there'slots of textual continuity.
You mentioned Judaism, it comesto us through Judaism, and then
into Christianity.
So the bit that I foundinteresting, um, was the
exorcism ritual.
(32:47):
What is common to these rituals,if we go all the way back
through history, what stays thesame and what is different.
So one commonality that you willfind in every type of exorcism
ritual is something um, thatgives life.
So sometimes it's salt, which isobviously essential.
for life.
Sometimes it's grain, you know,it's, it's the food of the
(33:09):
living.
The rituals themselves vary, thewording of the rituals vary, but
there's always this sense thatyou use something of the living
to drive out this demon.
Um, and that was the bit that Ifound interesting because, you
know, when we're talking aboutall of this, when we're talking
about folklore, when we'retalking about religion, what
we're talking about is, youknow, Um, people shared beliefs,
(33:32):
like we're human, we kind of allthink in roughly the same way we
think in terms of living anddead, probably good and bad,
but, and, you know, in slightlydifferent ways.
And it's, it's how those ritualsspeak to us, um, with a, with a
commonality.
So all the way back throughSyria, like I say, through
Judaism, into Christianity, youhave this same kind of, um,
sense of using something fromthe living to drive out the
(33:54):
dead.
dead.
Where this links into folklorevaries is obviously if you start
delving into these texts, whichI've spent a disproportionate
amount of time doing, you end upgoing into, um, what they call
exemplar, um, which are a lot ofstories, um, with usually with a
moral Um, attached to them, kindof didactic moral.
(34:14):
Um, and they, they kind ofinvolve all sorts of weird and
wonderful supernatural things.
You'll find necromancy in there,you'll find witches, you'll find
fairies, you'll find all sorts.
Um, so you kind of end up goingdown rabbit holes.
And it's like tangentialthinking, um, which, yeah, which
brings us this whole worldtogether and takes us back to
what we talked about earlier,this problem of where fairies
(34:35):
fit, you know, are they demons?
Can you exercise a fairy?
No, you can't.
Um,
Vanessa Rogers (34:42):
interesting.
Okay, so let's get into somemodern representations because I
think fairy folklore, fairyliterature is, um, I don't know
if it ever went out of fashion,but it's definitely very popular
today.
Um, you mentioned Sarah J.
Mass, and I know I've read the,um, A Court of Roses and Thorns
(35:03):
Uh, series.
That's one of her most popularones, and there's a lot of fairy
lore in that one.
Um, can you just talk about the,what we're seeing today?
Ivy Lewis (35:14):
Yeah, and I think you're right.
I don't think fairies everreally did go out of fashion.
Um, I think they've beenrepresented in various different
ways, and I think the appealremains the same throughout.
They're, they're morally grey,right?
They're these things that arekind of not quite good, not
quite bad.
We know that they're powerful,they're powerful in ways that
are different to us.
I think we quite like thatthey're associated with nature
(35:36):
and elemental magic and, youknow, and really old arcane, um,
arcane stuff, you know, becauseit's like Sarah J Maas draws on,
um, for instance, the cauldron,which is a, you know, a Tuath Dé
Danann myth, um, and obviouslyher names are, you know, Tamlin
is obviously the, the fairy taleof Tamlin.
Um, So she, she sort of delvesin and out of this, um, this
(35:57):
fairytale world.
Holly Black, I think I mentionedas well, she's like more young
adult, but again, she's, um, shedraws on a lot of fairytale, um,
creatures.
She's got Elfhame, the Latin,you know, the realm of fairy.
And I think, I think we allquite like this idea of a, You
know, a place beyond our ownworld, um, where things are
maybe not quite sostraightforward, um, in terms of
(36:20):
good, bad, you know, um, what'spossible, what's not possible.
Everyone likes magic, don'tthey?
Everyone kind of likes this ideaof magic.
And again, fairies are kind of,not all of them, but I think, I
think that trend at the momentis to see them as beautiful, you
know, quite, quite lovelycreatures.
Um, as opposed to maybe how theywere seen, um, in the past.
(36:41):
Um, so I think, I think they'reserving probably some, um,
combined need at the moment,psychologically.
Um, obviously there's a bit ofescapism and they're great fun
to escape into.
Um, if you think about howpreviously folklorists have,
have thought of them, um,Catherine Briggs wrote about
(37:01):
them as, um, moving into, intoUFO beliefs.
You know, now we have UFOsinstead of fairies, but we're
still kind of talking about thesame thing.
We're talking about somethingthat is other and comes from
beyond with, we're saying spaceat the moment, but you know,
once upon a time it would havebeen fairy.
Um, so we think, I think theykind of fulfill the need to have
a bit of magic.
in our lives as well.
Vanessa Rogers (37:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, from what I'veread, yes, fairies are
beautiful, but they also canhave a very dark side as well.
Right.
And I think that is probablymore accurate to what people
believed in.
previously that they weren't tobe trifled with necessarily.
They weren't necessarily bad,but they were not someone that
(37:44):
you wanted to, you know, messwith.
Ivy Lewis (37:49):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I, I think that's theperfect way of categorizing.
So we've got, we've got like theVictorians to thank for
Tinkerbell, you know, thefairies in the bottom of the
garden, those, those famous, um,faked.
you know, fake photos.
Um, but if we go back to theTuatha De Danann, we go back to
the, the she, they are, youknow, they're known as the white
people or the fair folk or theMary gentry, they're known as
(38:10):
these beautiful, powerfulbeings, um, you know, medieval
romance.
Fairy lovers, you know, these,these creatures who are
beautiful beyond imagination,often female, but you know, some
male ones as well.
It's a really common, um, kindof fantasy in, in the medieval
period.
So, you know, pretty much thesame as Akhita, right?
It's the same as Rhysandam,Tamlin, and all the other
characters, these fairy lovers.
(38:31):
Um, but yeah, definitely there,you know, they are, they are
morally great.
They're, they're beautiful tolook at, but they're probably
not going to behave quite theway you want them to behave.
And if you cross them, you docross them at your peril.
Vanessa Rogers (38:44):
And then also you, you talk about this liminal
space, which is also a term I'veseen crop up and a lot more, um,
fiction and maybe that's justbecause I'm reading more fantasy
than I had been before.
Um, but you see it in, in spaceswhere they're not even talking
about fairies, fairy lore atall.
Liminal spaces seems to be aterm that's used in lots of
(39:07):
fantasy.
Can you talk to us about that?
Ivy Lewis (39:11):
Yeah, liminality is an interesting one.
And I think, I think it's quite,I think it's quite prominent in
a lot of, um, a lot of people'sconsciousness at the moment.
So we can think of, we can use,we can think of liminality in
time.
We've just had Halloween, um, orSamhain, which is, is a perfect
example of that.
You know, the, the time when theveil is thinnest.
(39:33):
So fairies belong to liminalityof time.
They belong to liminal periodsof dawn and dusk.
different times of the year,changing of the seasons, that
kind of thing.
They also belong in liminalspaces, um, where mankind has
been but has deserted.
(39:53):
So for instance, emptybuildings, so you've got like
the redcaps who inhabit emptytowers, you might have different
types of sprites and browniesand goblins that inhabit, you
know, um, empty farm buildingsand stuff like that.
Um, so it's, it's kind of aplace that was human but no
longer belongs to a human.
And then there's liminality interms of, um, the wild, so
(40:14):
places where humans go to gatherresources, things like wood or
berries out into the, into theforest.
Um, and that I think, I thinkthat is, is a particularly.
interesting concept with theworld that we live in at the
moment with the loss of wildspaces, you know, um, when these
ideas were, were originallybeing formulated, like the wild
(40:36):
still very much existed.
It was a dangerous place.
If you've, if you've ever hearda deer bellow at night and you
don't know, you know, you don'tknow what that sound is, it's
quite a terrifying sound.
Um, so for people to try and andexplain, you know, what was
going on in those wild spaces.
Liminal spaces are fascinatingbecause they kind of belong to
humans, but they kind of don't.
(40:56):
Um, and so that's sort of wherewe, where we find fairies.
But equally, I think the otherplace we find them, we talked
about it earlier, is in this,um, this liminality of, of
morality.
They're not really good, butthey're not really bad either.
You know, they might dosomething nice for you.
Um, they might go and do yourhousework for you overnight, but
equally they might be completelyLike your crops, your life, your
(41:18):
livestock, you know, and verystroking.
So they're really hard topredict in that way.
Um, I think, I don't know.
I think there's kind of anattraction in that.
I think the human psychology isquite attracted to to
liminality.
Um, so I think that's wherethey're quite interesting.
Vanessa Rogers (41:36):
Well, and you mentioned Samhain and Halloween,
but also Day of the Dead, whichis not quite as celebrated, I
guess, in the U.
K., but it is definitelycelebrated.
Um, In Mexico, and I'm in Texas,so San Antonio is very, we have
one of the largest Day of theDead celebrations, but this is a
also You know, a lot of theculture, it's Catholic that is
(41:59):
celebrating Day of the Dead, butit is also this liminal space
where they believe that thesouls are the closest that they
will be all year long, is that,um, would that, would you
constitute that as a liminalspace as well?
Ivy Lewis (42:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And you know, um.
Halloween, right?
It's all hallows.
It's a similar kind of concept.
It's this idea that the veil isthinnest, um, and I think when
we think of these, these daysthat We celebrate.
Some of us celebrate with areally conscious understanding
of what it is we're celebrating.
Some of us just celebrate thembecause they've kind of been
absorbed into the calendar.
(42:37):
Um, but I think if we celebratethem and understand the
worldview that they come from,you know, um, we understand that
the dead, were not so separateto the living as they are
perhaps now.
You know, it wasn't, San deathwasn't sanitized in the same way
that it is now.
It was still, um, you know, we.
We only really think of life,and then we kind of don't really
(42:57):
think of death at all now,whereas, you know, for medieval
Christians, certainly Catholics,this, that's still very much
alive and, and, and kicking,pardon the pun, like, you know,
the, the afterlife is asimportant as this life.
So I think, um, I think that'skind of an idea that I played
with.
When I was writing Ferrishen,because the way I conceived it
is I conceived it as planes ofexistence, different dimensions.
(43:21):
Um, which obviously we've seenin sci fi and stuff like that
before.
Um, but it's, I suppose it'sabout having a view of the world
beyond just, um, this, thissecular living world that we are
all in.
Vanessa Rogers (43:34):
And why do you think it is that we are so
separated from death today ordon't really think about it as
much as the medieval Christiansdid?
What is it about today that haschanged?
Ivy Lewis (43:48):
It's a really good question.
I think it would, I think itdepends.
On faith, quite a lot of, youknow, I think that's, that's one
question.
So if I, you know, if I was tospeak to one of my really good
Catholic friends, they won't,they wouldn't tell me that they
were separate from it.
You know, it would still be justas, um, important to them now as
it would be to a medievalChristian.
You know, they're, they'rereally concerned.
Um, medieval.
(44:10):
Christianity is, is interestingbecause of its, its reach, you
know, it, it pretty much tookover countries, continents for a
period of time.
Um, and it was a real unifyingbelief.
Um, and so for them.
their concern was not with dayto day life.
(44:33):
Yes, there was a concern aroundobviously getting food and
having a job and all of thatkind of stuff.
Um, but the soul is really,really important.
You know, the fate of your soulis more important than the fate
of your body or, um, you know,the body is a husk to them,
which is where we obviously get.
you know, demons and angels andstuff coming from.
So it's, it's the soul that'simportant and the soul carries
(44:54):
on after death.
So for them, this life is notall there is, you know, there
is, there's plenty more to come.
So, so it is a very realconcern.
Um, I, I think obviously societyhas changed.
We've become more secular.
We've stepped back from religionand this is, you know, it's not
even necessarily just Christianreligion.
We've, we've stepped back fromreligion generally.
Um, so maybe we, we think lessabout these kinds of things.
(45:16):
Um, We've stepped back fromdeath as well.
You know, how, how many peoplehave seen a dead body?
Um, very few of us, I wouldhazard a guess these days.
Um, and if we have, it's, it'sprobably been in very sanitized
conditions.
Um, you know, death is not a,it's not, it's not real to us.
In many ways, it's, it'sremoved, you know, even when we
think about, um, ways of eatingin, in the modern world, you
(45:39):
know, if, if you want to eat achicken, you go pick some
chicken up from a shop or it'salready, sometimes it's even pre
cooked, right?
You don't have to go off andslaughter the chicken.
So we're so far removed from thecycles of life and death, um,
that it's almost an abstractthing to us, you know, and, and
how many, how many podcasts doyou see that will talk to you
about do this thing and it willmake you live a little bit
(46:02):
longer?
It's not going to stop youdying.
It's not going to change yourmortality.
But we're so, you know, we're sofocused on this, this life and
having more of this life.
We've kind of forgotten that,um, you know, it's going to end
and maybe there's somethingbeyond it and maybe there isn't.
Um, but we're, we're, we'refocused on here and now, you
know, um, and I think, I thinkthat's probably, um, probably
(46:22):
where the difference is.
Vanessa Rogers (46:24):
Yeah.
Okay.
So talk to us about, so did youcoin the term Feifi or is it, I
don't know.
Ivy Lewis (46:33):
I'm going to say yes.
I'm going to go with yes.
Why not?
I did a Google.
I can't find anyone else usingit.
So if anyone else wants to claimit, have at it.
It was kind of, you know, you'rewriting a novel and you go off
and you try and sell it to apublisher and you have to
explain what genre it's in.
Um, and I would say mine fits,it blends genres.
(46:53):
So it's, it's sci fi in a sensethat we're looking at a
futuristic world, a dystopianfuture in which the earth has
been devastated by nuclearweapons.
If you're warfare, we're livingin bunkers underground, you
know, everything has gonehorribly, horribly wrong.
So it's, it's futuristic in thatsense.
Um, and it's very much based infolklore in the sense of, of
(47:13):
humanity's response to that hasbeen to open a fairy portal and
to invade a fairy realm.
Um, because obviously the fairyrealm is this beautiful utopia.
Um, so that's, that's kind ofwhere I've, I've gone.
It's a blend of sci fi.
Um, with fey and folkloric typeideas, um, so yeah, if anyone
else wants to claim it, go forit.
Vanessa Rogers (47:35):
I didn't even look to see if there was a
Wikipedia entry on it, so thatwould, that would be
interesting.
Um, so what other, so you, youhave not come across, have you
come across any other works thatkind of blend that kind of sci
fi and fairy realm?
Ivy Lewis (47:57):
Yeah, I think, I think Romanticy is kind of doing
it a little bit.
Um, you know, if you think ofwhat, um, like Rebecca Yaros has
been doing with Fourth Wing, Ithink she's, she's kind of doing
it a little bit.
So she's got, I suppose, fairlymodern ideas of, you know, um,
military.
It's not exactly the same.
I don't think they've got quitethe same technology.
(48:18):
I think it's more heavily basedin magic, so maybe not.
Um, I don't know is the honestanswer.
If anybody else has to find oneand prove me wrong, then, um,
I'll say Terry Brooks.
Maybe Terry Brooks might be agood example, actually, when he
did his, um, he did MagicKingdom.
Um, he did his Magic Kingdomseries and it was set in New
York and he brought a, hebrought a Magic Kingdom.
(48:40):
So maybe that is, yeah, maybethat's, that's the kind of
example.
And I think Stephen Donaldsondid it a little bit when he
wrote Mordant's Need.
Um, so he wrote, um, a duologywhich was very fantasy, Not so
much fairy, but very fantasy.
And then he brought in anelement of sci fi towards the
(49:00):
end with a very random spacesoldier, um, who joins in the
battle.
So maybe, so maybe there are,you know, maybe there are people
around there, um, that are doingit.
So I won't, I won't claim it asbeing entirely unique.
Vanessa Rogers (49:12):
And you, you mentioned already that at the
heart of your story is this ecocritical, eco semiotic, um, kind
of message.
Is there anything else that youreally needed to get out, uh, in
this story that you're, you'retrying to pass on or maybe just
was in your head that you feelwas important?
Ivy Lewis (49:34):
Yeah, so, so for me, my writing is an exploration of,
of people and all these thingswe've talked about.
So, you know, um, Good, bad,morally gray, um, where, how,
how we view the world.
Um, so, obviously, my, my story,Ferish Inn, is, is set within a
(49:56):
futuristic war zone.
So, you know, the maincharacters are soldiers.
We explore, um, ideas aroundmoral injury, you know, um.
Soldiers asked to do horrificthings, um, and the toll that
that takes on them if they stepback and look at really the, you
know, the morality of that.
Um, there's an exploration ofmental health, you know, um,
(50:19):
PTSD, dissociation.
Um, trauma, that kind of thing.
And then the other thing that Iwanted to do is I wanted to
give, um, new life to oldstories.
So, it's very heavily drawnupon, um, the folklore and the
mythology of Ireland.
So, in later books, the She,Make, and Appearance, Manan and
(50:42):
Maclure, um, Manx folklore atCofenadieri are in there.
Um, you've got the Morrigan.
Um, in her various forms as awar goddess or fake goddess.
And I, I kind of, um, I hung thewhole thing on this, um, Celtic
structure.
Um, of, of, you know, havingother worlds, of having, um,
(51:02):
Evan and Magmel and Fomoria andEarth and Teotangira, which sort
of is their afterlife, you know,their place beyond death.
So I, I kind of wanted to Iwanted to write stories that are
really heavily grounded infolklore, but that feel real.
I wanted to imagine what wouldhappen if we did actually butt
(51:25):
up against, you know, thefolklore and the fairy tale folk
that we've been writing aboutfor so many years.
Um, so, you know, how does amodern soldier equipped with
rifles, how does he cope with,you know, uh, Uh, a fairy.
How does he respond to that?
Um, and that was kind of what Iplayed with.
I wanted to, to really give it afeeling of reality and a bit of,
(51:47):
I suppose, a bit of grit aswell.
I didn't want it all to be, youknow, sparkly magic and love
stories and, um, yeah, that kindof stuff.
Vanessa Rogers (51:56):
And how many are in this series?
I know your first one is comingout in November.
Um, but how many do you plan tohave in this, this series?
Ivy Lewis (52:07):
So, um, Ferrisian will be a trilogy.
There'll be, um, three mainbooks and then there's a prequel
and a sequel as well to, tobookend the main story just
because of the way, um, youknow, um, folklore is drawn in.
It makes sense to write it inthat way.
Um, so my first one obviously isout, as you said, the end of
this month.
Um, book two.
(52:28):
To be out next year and allbeing well, the year after, um,
and then yeah, the prequel andthe sequel.
After that, there may well beshorter stories, there may well
be other bits and pieces.
Um, my novella is being rereleased hopefully next year,
um, with illustrations thistime.
So I'm working with a folkloreillustrator as well and she's,
she's bringing that to life.
(52:48):
Very kind of, um, frowdy andway, um, which is quite
exciting.
So, um,
Vanessa Rogers (52:54):
and is, does this one tie in, does your
novella tie in at all to theFersen series or is it
completely separate?
Ivy Lewis (53:02):
I want to say it's completely separate.
It's separate but it's got asimilar feel.
So, um, Gandhidon again is setin a dystopian future, but this
time instead of the, uh, youknow, the humans invading
Faerie, Faerie has taken overand the humans are on the run.
So it's kind of flipped thenarrative.
The other
Vanessa Rogers (53:20):
way around.
Ivy Lewis (53:21):
Yeah, so similar ideas, but.
Um, but told in a different way,
Vanessa Rogers (53:26):
one of the things that you mentioned in
your work, it was that in yourstudies rather, um, was that
the, one of the powerful partsabout folklore and fairy tales
are those textual gaps.
So snapshots that readers fill,fill in, um, is that possible at
(53:47):
all in a novel series like whatyou're writing or, um, is it.
Is it not?
Ivy Lewis (53:56):
Yeah, so when we're talking about textual gaps,
we're kind of going intoliterary theory a little bit.
So, um, you've possibly comeacross structuralism with Propp
and Levi Strauss, who have thisidea that fairy tales are kind
of hung all on the same, fairytales are all hung on the same
kind of structure, you know.
Um, like a really easy one wouldbe like the hero and the dragon
(54:18):
and the damsel in distress, forinstance.
That's the kind of thing.
Um, and then post structuralism,you have, um, Uh, Isa, who, who
coins the reader responsetheory, and his theory is that,
um, reading is, um, is aninteractive process,
(54:40):
essentially, so the writer, Iput a certain amount down on the
page, and then as a reader, youideate from my words, you
imagine this whole other storyfrom what I've written, um, so
fairy tales do this quite often.
obviously clearly, um, clunkilyin some ways, they'll drop you
(55:00):
straight in the middle of anarrative, like there'll be, you
know, um, the washerwoman forinstance.
So you know nothing about thewasherwoman, you don't know what
her family is like, you don'tknow how old, you know, you know
absolutely nothing, you getdumped into this fairy tale.
It will tell you something like,I don't know, maybe she came
across a kelpie or whatever ithappens to be, and she escaped
it or she didn't, and then thestory ends.
And you're kind of left there,and even, you know, even the
(55:20):
Brothers Grimm do it to acertain extent, you're left to
kind of imagine.
all these other things that goon, right?
A little bit like nurseryrhymes, they're the same.
But when we think of novels andany kind of writing, really,
there are natural textural gaps.
Like when you jump from oneparagraph to the next, it's a
textural gap.
There are gaps in, you know, theimagery that you create.
(55:45):
You'll describe a certainamount, but maybe you'll leave a
certain bit out.
You'll drop in and out thestory.
You know, someone wakes up inthe You're probably not told how
they sleep or do They go off tothe loo, or you know, all these
other different bits and pieces,so there's, there's always
natural gaps in stories.
Um, and obviously what we weretalking about earlier, we were
talking about how many books arein my series.
I, I, it was important to methat I, I don't want to
(56:07):
overwrite.
I, I want to leave there, I wantto leave the reader with
questions.
So my favourite stories leave mewith questions.
They leave me thinking, youknow, what happened next?
Did X, Y, and Z happened, didthis character go off and do
this, and I kind of like that, Ikind of like things that are
unfinished, um, I think itleaves, leaves almost an echo in
(56:27):
your mind, and I think that'swhat's so powerful about fairy
stories as well, and folktales,is you kind of, you think about
this weird little story that youwere told, and it leaves all
these questions, and that's kindof what I like about it, so, um,
yes, is the answer to thatquestion, I very much try to do
it with my writing, um, I hopeyou're not explaining too much,
but just explaining enough.
Vanessa Rogers (56:46):
It does that mean that your, your stories are
not quite as long as some of theother fantasy stories because
that's one of the things about,you know, reading fantasy, you
have to like, be prepared toreally read a lot of pages.
I think the first book of theAKHR series with Sarah J.
Maas, um, was, 24 hours.
(57:10):
I, I do audio books, so I, Idon't know page numbers, but I
think it was a 24 hour book,which probably was in the 600,
700 page range.
I'm not really sure, but long.
And that was just the first ofthe series, right?
So, um, where's yours lie inthat?
Ivy Lewis (57:27):
Yeah, so I would say, so, um, Ferish Inn is sitting at
about, I think, about 450, 500pages, so it's a fair old chunk
of book, um, and the other twowill be a fair old chunk of book
as well, um, but I suppose theone thing I will say is my
writing style is quite short andsharp, so I tend to write in
kind of short staccato bursts,maybe a little bit similar to a
(57:52):
a screenplay or something likethat, just because of the way,
um, so, so when I write a novel,I don't sit down and plan
chapters, I don't sit down, Idon't plan anything, I see it in
my head, you can see the artworkbehind me, I see it, I see the
pictures, I ask questions of thecharacters and I write it down,
so it, perhaps it's a slightlydifferent experience to, to
(58:12):
someone who, who has sat andplanned it all out, um, and I
think the three books, Tie thestory up fairly neatly, you
know, there's a beginning,there's a clear end with some
questions, um, and hopefullyit's framed in a way that's
readable.
My novella and my short stories,and actually that is, that's
what I enjoy writing more ifI'm, if I'm perfectly honest, so
(58:33):
my novella.
Each chapter is in itself a folktale and then you can read all
of the folk tales together tomake the whole story.
Um, and that's, to be honest,that's, that's where my
enjoyment is because you have tobe a little bit more brutal
about what you write and howmuch you write and you have to
think about it a little bitmore.
Vanessa Rogers (58:49):
No, are they, are they fairy tale folk?
Are they folktales that havealready, like, that exist in the
world, or are they folktalesthat are, just exist in, in that
world that you've created?
Ivy Lewis (59:02):
No, so they are, they are folktales that exist in the
world, and they're tied togetherby our heroine, Misha, um, and
she is journeying, journeyingthrough this world, um, Um,
looking for her lost pony, thiswild fairy, and she is a, she is
herself a liminal creature.
She's a little bit in theforest, she's a little bit out,
(59:24):
she's a little bit fairy, she'sa little bit not.
Um, so each chapter you meet adifferent folkloric creature, so
there are, um, there are bogartsin there, there's a nixie,
there's kelpies, you know,redcaps, um, there's a little, a
little English folktale, um.
which is originally theStrawberries and Goats Cream but
(59:44):
has been turned into theRaspberries and Goats Cream.
So it's all these strange littlestories that are probably
reasonably familiar and eachchapter is one of these little
stories but, you know, put intoMisha's world, um, with the
Fairy King, Helequin, who iskind of haunting her steps the
whole way, and then her travelcompanion who is, uh, One of my
readers termed him as a wastefairy, which I quite enjoyed,
(01:00:05):
um, because he kind of shows upwhen he's not needed and
disappears when he is, and yeah,he's, uh, he's quite an
interesting character as well.
So it's, yeah, I, I have to saythat Gandhid and in that world
and that way of writing bringsme an awful lot of joy.
I think it's great fun.
Vanessa Rogers (01:00:21):
That does sound like a lot of fun.
I'm looking forward to readingit.
Um, and I did want to ask you,we're getting short on time, but
one of the things that youmentioned, uh, Okay.
Which was that you structured itbased off, uh, Celtic mythology,
and I just wanted to know if youcould give us just a little bit
(01:00:44):
of that story that youreimagined or put into your
stories so that your, youraudience or my listeners who
pick up your book, uh, mighthave that, uh, in the back of
their mind.
Ivy Lewis (01:00:58):
Yeah, so Gandeden is British folklore, um, and that
is, is a slightly separatething.
Fereshin is all structuredaround, um, ideas of, um, the
gods and the, um, the old heroesof Ireland.
So you've got, like I said, theTuath Dé Danann, uh, the people
(01:01:20):
of Danu, the tribe of thegoddess Danu, um, who are the
fairy folk, the Shi, um, Andthen you've got Mananam McClure,
who, um, takes the role of theFairy King in my, in my story.
He is the, the ruler of the SheFolk.
Um, and then you've obviouslygot the Morrigan, who is the,
the goddess of, of Some peopleflippantly refer to her as the
(01:01:43):
goddess of death, but she kindof isn't really.
She's a, she's a triple goddess.
So she takes the form of, um,Five, the, uh, the battle crow,
um, you know, who foretells El'sdeath, she takes the, um, the,
the form of, um, Nebian, who is,who is the, um, bringer of
battle fury and chaos.
(01:02:03):
She's sometimes thought of as agoddess of fate.
So she kind of has, um, severalroles, but she is, um, you know,
she's a living character.
In my, in my stories, um, inIndek, who is the king of the
Fomorians, um, the Favori, asthey should be pronounced in
the, uh, you know, in thecorrect tongue, who are the kind
of the monstrous race who dobattle, um, with the Tua de
(01:02:26):
Danan.
And then you've got, um, theFenidiri, who are my, my little
tribe of, um, peace lovingfaerie, um, who are based on,
um, Manx folklore.
Um, so, The whole world isstructured on the idea of
several planes of existence, youknow, the, the fairy realms, um,
(01:02:48):
which loosely, um, equate toCeltic mythology, the afterlife.
So you've got Evan, um, or Aon,as it's sometimes pronounced,
you've got Magmel, you've gotFomoria, you've got Earth,
you've got Teotangira, which is,you know, the blessed afterlife.
Um, and that's, that's kind of,it's like a whole other
cosmology.
And it's, um, it's held togetherby, um, the power of the Great
(01:03:10):
Serpent, who we sometimes willsee in loads and loads of
different myths, um, you know,the Ouroboros, the, um, you
know, that, that, um, presencethat gives life or, or a world
ending presence.
So it's, it's kind of, it willprobably feel familiar to
anybody who reads and knowsCeltic mythology, and it'll also
(01:03:30):
probably.
We feel a little bit differentat the same time, and that's,
that's kind of what I wanted todo.
I wanted to almost write it inthe way that Greek myths are
written.
You know, the gods are real,they come down to earth, they
get involved in human matters,and that was kind of the feel
that I wanted to, to bring intoit.
Um, so yeah, that's, that's howit's held together with
folklore.
Vanessa Rogers (01:03:50):
How fascinating.
So we're coming to the end.
We've covered a ton.
Uh, what did we miss?
I know there's probably so muchmore that we could have covered,
but, um, Is there anything thatyou feel like we, uh, didn't
touch on that you wanted to?
Ivy Lewis (01:04:07):
No, I just, I just think it's huge.
You know, it's, it's such a hugetopic and there are so many
avenues you could go down andyeah, it's, it's, it's days and
days of podcasts worth ofdiscussion.
for listening to me talk for anhour or so.
Vanessa Rogers (01:04:27):
Well, thank you, Ivy, for joining us today.
Ivy Lewis (01:04:32):
Thank you very much.
Vanessa Rogers (01:04:34):
And thank you folksy folks for joining us on
this fairy journey.
Uh, we will be linking Ivy's,uh, two books on, uh, our
website on the show notes.
So my website is www.
fabricoffolklore.
com and the links to her booksand also to her website will,
uh, be there.
Um, and If you enjoyed thisepisode and if you have a
(01:04:58):
friend, uh, who likes fairystories, make sure that you
share this episode with them,uh, so that they learn about a,
a new fairy, uh, book that isjust coming to the market.
You can also find FabricaFolklore on social media.
We're on Instagram, on Facebook,and a little bit on Twitter
(01:05:20):
slash X.
Thanks so much for unravelingthe mysteries of folklore.
Once again, I'm your hostess,Vanessa Y.
Rogers, and until next time,keep the folk alive.
Welcome folksy folks.
Welcome to Fabric of Folklore.
I am Vanessa Y.
Rogers, your hostess of thepodcast where we unravel the
mysteries of folklore.
Our show is all about origins.
We're pulling on threads thatlead us back as far back as that
thread will take us.
Whether that thread is an urbanlegend and mythological story or
(00:35):
a superstition, we want tounderstand its history and its
context.
One of the previous episodes,our guest Dr.
Miguel Roy talked aboutsuperstitions and that was
episode 65.
One of the superstitions was notto whistle at night in Africa,
so as not to attract.
Later, I came across anothersuperstition about whistling in
(00:55):
Australia, only specifically ina graveyard.
So a ghost wouldn't follow youhome.
Sailors also have a superstitionabout whistling.
They believe that whistlingchanges the wind and they,
sailors often worked in theatersbecause they were good at knots
and ropes and rigging.
And so actors began discouragingthe act of whistling because
(01:18):
they believed it was bad luck.
In Ukraine if if you whistlethey believe you, you go broke.
I had a hard time pinpointingany sort of reason except that
whistling seemed to beuniversally bad Luck globally.
And I love to say this show isabout building bridges, but it's
also about connecting dots tosee where those dots lead you.
(01:40):
And on this folklore podcast,I'm always amazed at the wisdom
with which my guests bring, andyou will be too.
So make sure you're hitting thatsubscribe button, whether you're
watching on YouTube or you'relistening on your favorite
podcasting platform, like Appleor Spotify or iHeartRadio,
whatever it is you listen to.
So you get notifications on aweekly basis.
When our podcast drops, we havea fantastic show for you today.
(02:01):
You're going to love this one.
Ivy Lewis is our guest.
She's an RAF veteran, whichstands for Royal Air Force.
She's a war artist.
Her war collection is held inthe Royal Air Force Museum.
She specialized in folklore andreligion in the Middle Ages and
her undergraduate and herpostgraduate degree.
She is the author of a novella,and Where Will You Go, Dedian?
(02:24):
Dedian.
Dedian, right?
Ivy Lewis (02:27):
Gone Dedian.
Vanessa Rogers (02:28):
And as well as her debut novel, Ferishen, set
to release at the end ofNovember 2024, it's romance set
in a futuristic war zone,blending elements of sci fi and
folklore into what she's callingfey fee.
Our show today will be aboutconnecting lots of dots between
place lore, how fairies arerepresented through the lens of
(02:50):
medieval characters.
Christian Linds and what thatmeans for modern representation
in Fae literature today.
We'll be talking about theintersection between the natural
world and the fairy tales, aswell as Ivy's books and how she
reimagined folklore in herupcoming works.
So thank you so much for joiningus, Ivy.
Hi, thank you for having me.
(03:12):
So let's get into Your journeyabout being a novelist.
How did that occur?
Ivy Lewis (03:21):
Yeah, interesting question.
So, probably like lots of peoplewho write books, I've been
writing for a long, long time.
So I've been writing since I wasabout, um, 15, 16.
So that's a good 20 odd yearsnow.
Um, I've always written just forfun, just for the pure enjoyment
of it, um, as a lot of us do.
Um, and the, the book Ferrishin,which is out, um, at the end of
(03:44):
this month, I actually wrote thefirst draft ten years ago, um,
when I got back fromAfghanistan.
Um, so I'd, I'd written it andkind of played around with it,
sat on it for a while, um, andthen, you know, life goes on as
it does.
Um, And I was due to start a PhDin creative writing, um, last
(04:06):
September on, on pretty much thetopic we're talking about today.
Um, and so as part of my PhD,um, application, I sent my, my
draft of ferret into my oldprofessor, um, so that he could
write, you know, he could writea supporting statement for me to
do the PhD.
And he read the book and he saidto me, it's actually pretty
good.
And I thought, well.
You know, he's, he's not thekind of guy who's gonna, you
(04:28):
know, gonna lie to me aboutthese things.
So I went back, I revisited, Istarted playing with it again.
Got a little bit sucked in, sentit off to publishers, got a
publishing deal, and then went,Oh, whoops, now I've got to
choose between, between the PhDand writing.
Um, you know, with the timebeing what it is.
Um, so obviously I, I went withFerriton, um, and kind of a year
later, here we are.
(04:48):
Um, so I guess I'm a little bitof an accidental novelist.
It really wasn't my intention.
Vanessa Rogers (04:56):
Well, so you, your, um, degrees, what were,
what are your degrees in?
Ivy Lewis (05:03):
So, um, my first degree is in ancient world
studies, which is, is quite abroad title because it's, it is
a fairly broad, um, spread.
So, um, for the first couple ofyears I did Latin and Greek.
So we learned ancient languages.
Um, I then picked uppaleography.
Um.
I'm just smashing old Englishfor my undergraduate, um,
(05:25):
ancient history, things aroundmythology, um, the early middle
ages, and I really got quitehooked, um, on the middle ages
in that degree.
So I spent my third year, um.
Studying kind of the morefolklore elements going into
like voyages in the other world.
So the afterlife, um, hence, youknow, my interest in kind of
(05:46):
purgatory and hell and that kindof thing.
Demonic possession rituals,which I went and I looked at
from all the way back fromancient Assyria, um, through
Judaism into Christianity andkind of the more modern period
as well, with almost like quitean anthropological look at it.
So my, my first degree was quitebroad.
And then, um, when I did myMasters, I settled into, into
(06:08):
the Middle Ages, um, and demonicpossession and exorcism was kind
of my, my bag, which is how I, Igot into folklore, because
obviously you start studyingone, you get drawn into the
others.
Um, and I, I worked on.
Um, old English text,paleography again, manuscript
studies, um, at the BritishLibrary, so obviously that, you
know, paleography is, isessential for the reading.
(06:29):
Um, and yeah, that's, that'skind of, kind of where I ended.
Vanessa Rogers (06:34):
And did a lot of this research inspire you to
start writing your, your novels?
Ivy Lewis (06:40):
I think so, yeah, I think, I think it's just, um,
you know, as a, as a kid I'dalways been really into fantasy.
I think quite a lot of kids are,like Lord of the Rings, I was
that generation, you know, Idon't know if you've ever heard
the, the radio adaption, maybenot because kids are in America,
but in, in the UK there was aradio adaption, um, of the story
and that was something that Iloved as a kid.
Um, and so obviously I, I kindof, I read a lot of fantasy
(07:01):
books and then I was really intohistory and, you know, the, the
school that I went to.
Again, over here in the UK, youkind of have the two schooling
systems.
You have the state school, whichis kind of where, where everyone
goes if they're not rich.
And then you have obviouslyprivate schools, which are paid
for.
So I went to a state school, um,and I really loved history, and
I really loved everythingacademic, but I didn't get the
(07:21):
opportunity to learn, um,ancient languages or anything
like that.
So when I had that opportunityat university, um, that was
something that I really wentfor.
Um, and I just think it's the.
I love folktales because they'rekind of a little bit unfinished.
They're sort of, um, smallsnapshots of bigger stories, and
then they feed into biggermythologies, and then there's
(07:43):
like, there's worlds withinworlds, and then it throws up
the really big questions aroundgood and evil, which obviously
you get into if you get intotheology as well.
And I think, I think that'sReally what feeds into my
writing that kind of, I thinkit's, it's almost a way of me
framing my own thoughts aboutthe world and the nature of
humanity and all that stuff.
So yeah, it's, it's big ideasinto, um, compressed into the
(08:07):
word on the page, I guess.
Vanessa Rogers (08:09):
One of the things that you also mentioned
that you studied was ecocritical theory and eco
Semiotics I those werecompletely foreign words to me.
So can you explain what that is?
Ivy Lewis (08:23):
Yeah, so this is, this is where we dip into my PhD
stuff.
So this is kind of the area, Imay write a book about it, I'm
undecided yet, but this may bethe area that I take forward.
I may go and do the PhD, whoknows.
Um, so eco critical theory ismore about how we interpret
literature.
So, um, how we, how we readtexts and how they might relate
(08:44):
to, um, the world around us withan eco critical concern.
So um, one example that I alwaysthink is quite an easy one
because it's quite well known isif we think of the film Avatar,
which again has been huge overthe years, it's got that real,
what I would say is an ecocritical angle.
We're talking about thedestruction of resources.
colonialization, you know, um, areal anthropocentric view of the
(09:08):
world rather than a biocentric.
So, um, I mean, we can, we candelve into other things.
So for instance, Like the fallof the house of, of Usher is eco
critical in terms of it's anentropic system, but that's, you
know, it's going a bit deep,Moby Dick is another one, you
know, classic literature, which,which would have an eco critical
kind of, um, aspect to it.
But it's, it's works that havesomething to say around the
(09:30):
natural world, our, um,interactions with it.
positive or negative, um, and,you know, sometimes these are
intentional, um, commentariesand criticisms, which is
obviously what I've done with mywork.
So, ferishing is very much anintentional criticism.
Um, other times they're, they'reless so, other times it's just
hinted out or it's just, youknow, maybe it's the, it's, it's
the, uh, it's the popular thingto be, to be talking about.
(09:54):
So it's kind of got drawn intothe work that way.
And then when we think aboutecosemiotics, so again, it's a
relatively new discipline.
It's, um, it's branching offfrom semiotics, which we'll have
all come across at some point,um, in our life.
We come, we come across it inday to day life.
So, um, you know, for instance,you see the McDonald's M, you,
you know, instantly what it is.
(10:14):
It doesn't say McDonald's, itdoesn't say food, it doesn't say
any of those things, but you seethat M and you, you know what it
is.
It's a sign.
It's a branch of semiotics.
Um, so ecosemiotics is about howthe natural world looks to, um,
the species that inhabit it.
So, um, for instance, a simpleway of looking at that, um, is
(10:36):
we, we talk about a conceptcalled the umwelt, which just
means the environment.
Um, but it's, that's, that'swhat we're talking about in
ecosemiotics.
If we think about a garden, youknow, just your average garden,
it's probably got some grass init.
It's probably got hedge, maybeit's got fence, maybe in the
autumn it's got some fallenleaves.
If we were to put anecosemiotics head on that and to
look at it from, um, ahedgehog's perspective, to
(10:59):
consider the umwelt from ahedgehog's perspective, we'd be
thinking, right, what, what do Ineed?
I need, um, some leaf litterbecause it's got insects in that
I can eat.
Um, I need some shelter.
to hide from predators.
Um, and then maybe I'll look atthe fences that are around this
garden and are they accessible?
Can the hedgehog get throughthem?
Um, are they stopping thehedgehog from getting in and
(11:19):
out?
Um, so it's, it's a way ofconsidering the environment, um,
from a, from a particularspecies point of view.
So where it became quiteinteresting to me and we'll, and
I'm sure we'll get onto it laterin the pod, is how, um, fairies,
you know, folkloric creatures,how they interact with their
environment, because the two areinextricably linked, like you
(11:39):
can't have folklore withoutenvironment.
So my, my area of interest isessentially the umwelt of
fairies.
You know, what do fairies need?
Where do they inhabit?
Um, what things, um, do theyneed to, to flourish?
What things send them away?
If we were to, if we were to dosomething different, you know,
would we be encouraging fairiesinto a particular environment in
a hypothetical way?
(11:59):
So that's, that's kind of wheremy area of interest lies in
that.
Vanessa Rogers (12:05):
And there was a paper you sent me that had, um,
that talked a lot about bogs andthat there's a lot of stories
around bogs.
Can you, can you tell ourlisteners about that?
Ivy Lewis (12:15):
Yes, it's a really, it's really interesting research
paper and it's about place law.
Um, and, and bogs are quite a,quite a good one because I think
they have, It's quite a common,I think, I think you mentioned
actually didn't you on anearlier pod about Will o the
Wisps and being a nation as wellas, you know, in the British
Isles.
Um, but it's, it's about howplace interacts with the lore
(12:36):
and how lore interacts with theplace.
So, You've got a marshland, um,or a bog where people have, um,
you know, historically gone,potentially got into danger,
lost their lives, um,disappeared.
And so, from a, a sort of a, um,a folkloric perspective, a story
(12:56):
will be created to explain whythat happens.
Um, we know quite often in bogswe have the phenomenon of marsh
gas, so we see the little lightsthat are described as, as will o
the wisp.
So, one of the stories that.
that tends to come up aroundthese marshlands is that, you
know, the will o the wisps, theylead you off, um, lead you
astray and you go off into themarsh and you, you die.
There's stories about ablacksmith as well, isn't there?
(13:16):
Um, and there's, you know,there's various other things,
but they're essentially the samekind of thing.
You know, marshes are dangerousplaces and they're dangerous
places because this folkloriccreature, um, is there and it's
going to harm you.
So that's one way ofinterpreting it.
But equally, the other way ofinterpreting it is to flip it
the other way around.
You've already got a dangerousplace and you have to come up
(13:36):
with a reason for it to bedangerous.
Um, and so where, where that'squite interesting is, is that's
the interaction between placelaw and folklore, um, and how,
how environments Some specificplaces give rise to particular,
um, folkloric beliefs, whichprobably explains why we have
(13:56):
this commonality of belief,sorry, um, across location, you
know, i.
e.
marshes are the same throughoutthe world, therefore they're
going to have similar kind of,um, phenomena, people are going
to die in them, we kind of needthis, this explanation behind
them.
So it's, it's a reallyinteresting way of, of reading
place, um, and it's an ecosemiotic way of reading place.
Vanessa Rogers (14:17):
It makes me think, you know, we had that
fairy tale flip episode aboutthe, the, the blacksmith, but
also, um, the ChristianAnderson's, uh, the girl who
tried on a loaf and she fallsinto a bog.
Down into the land underneathwith the the marshwoman and also
(14:38):
the devil so I had never likeplaced that piece that together
as Bogs are dangerous places andthe will of the wisp.
That's interesting.
You're you're putting piecestogether for me
Ivy Lewis (14:51):
So you've got the other bit that may interestingly
describe that story as well.
So if you think of the goingdown, and we'll get onto this
later, so, you know, fairies arecommonly described as coming
from under the ground, whetherthrough through she mounds, um,
St Martin's land, as they'rereferred to in one tale, you
know, lands beneath, which iswhere we kind of get this
vaguely link with hell, but notquite hell, um, always to kind
(15:11):
of a kind of other world.
Um, so it's, yeah, it all, itall pieces together, um, in
various different ways.
Vanessa Rogers (15:18):
Oh, so in my head I had never, I, I guess
I've never come across a storywhere fairies come up from the
ground, um, may So that'sinteresting.
Can you, can you tell us one ofthose stories just so in case
any of our listeners also arelike myself?
Ivy Lewis (15:35):
No, it's fine.
So, um, so, um, if, if we thinkof fairy, so, so fairy and, and
you, you probably possiblydiscussed this on other pods,
but if we, if we think aboutwhat a fairy is, a fairy is
essentially, um.
a secular supernatural being.
So it's a supernatural beingoutside of any organized
(15:55):
religion.
So, you know, Christianity is anice easy one.
Within the organized religion wehave, um, you know, God and the
devil.
We have angels.
It's fairly straightforward.
But then you also have this kindof separate secular category,
which is where the fairies sit.
Um, and if we think back to, um,even like ancient Greece, you've
got myriads, dyriads, you know,things that kind of sit a little
(16:15):
bit outside of that.
Um, to link it back to, to whatyou're talking about with, with
under the ground, probably themost important link there is to
think about the Tuatha Dé Danannfrom Ireland.
So the Tuatha Dé Danann arethought of as being a, um, a
race of kind of elder gods, um,and they inhabit the land of
(16:39):
Ireland.
Ireland's a bit of a strange,um, strange country in that it
doesn't really have any originstories.
It's always considered to havekind of been there, um, you
know, and various differentpeople.
inhabit it.
So, the Tuatha Dé Danann are,um, this, this kind of magical
race of demigods, gods, and theybecome associated with, um, she
(17:02):
mounds.
So, so she is the word for moundin, in Ireland, um, and it's,
it's, um, also becomes the namefor fairy.
So you would, you would call afairy a she in Ireland.
But when you're talking aboutshe, what you're generally
talking about is the Tuatha DéDanann.
Um, so we think about them asin, as inhabiting these mounds,
these green mounds.
Um, so coming from under theground.
(17:25):
Equally, um, if we look backinto medieval, um, texts and we
think about the, the greenchildren, have you come across
that story?
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
William of Newburgh, I thinkit's William of Newburgh, I'd
have to check my notes, but, um,in, in Woolpit, in fairly near
to where I live, actually, thetwo green children, when they're
(17:45):
found, they're considered to befairy children, um, and the, the
little boy pines away and dies.
And the girl obviouslyflourishes and survives.
And when she's asked about whereshe comes from, she describes
coming from a land beneath theearth, which is called St.
Martin's Land.
So there's a really strongassociation with fairies coming
from beneath the ground.
Um, in various differentstories, if you think about the
(18:07):
romances, medieval romances,quite often there's a portal in
a hill.
Um, which takes you through to,um, Elfheim or Elfland,
whichever way you want to callit.
So yeah, it's a really, um, areally strong association, but
if we were to find, at least, atleast in the British Isles, and
I can only really speak for theBritish Isles, if we were to, to
really find an origin for it,we'd probably talk about the
she, um, and the Tuatha DéDanann in Ireland.
Vanessa Rogers (18:28):
So interesting, because I've heard of the fairy
rings, but not the mounds, but Iguess a lot of times the rings
are maybe around a mound?
Ivy Lewis (18:36):
Yeah, some, I mean, sometimes fairy rings are again,
it takes us into, it takes us alittle bit into ecosemiotics
again, because what we'retalking about is a, is a
mushroom ring, right?
Um, and it's how, how we relateto, the natural world.
So when we look at the naturalworld, we, we look at it and we
still read it in, well some ofus do anyway, we still read it
in a folkloric way.
Um, so yeah, the rings can be dowith, can be to do with portals,
(19:00):
the mounds generally that we'retalking about are burial mounds.
So again, you've got thatassociation with, with the dead.
Um, so there's, there's quiteoften a big crossover.
Of belief, um, and we couldprobably drive ourself to
distraction trying to find somekind of Like continuity, you
know some kind of textualthread.
Um, but yeah, there's a lot of alot of mixed beliefs
Vanessa Rogers (19:22):
Okay, so we're on the topic of fairies So one
of the things that you looked atin your work is the idea that
they represent in differentcultures Can you tell us a
little bit about that?
Ivy Lewis (19:34):
Yeah, so I mean We've talked about the Tudor Nan,
obviously, who I think arereally, really important.
When we think about fairies inall cultures, we're going back
to that original definition.
We're going back to that idea ofa secular, supernatural being.
And that's pretty muchapplicable throughout.
(19:55):
Sometimes they are conceived ofas a pagan deity.
That's, you know, that's gone onto become this secular
supernatural, which the tour deDanana.
Again, I can't speak to othercultures, but there'll be plenty
of other examples of this.
But It's, it's alwaysinteresting to think about the
role that they serve for aculture.
(20:16):
So whenever we think aboutfairies, we're thinking
generally, generally, generallyabout a creature, um, that is on
its way out, but hasn't quitebeen pushed out of
consciousness.
So it's usually either becauseof, um, an ethnic reason.
So a different ethnic group hasshoved them out of their natural
homeland.
It can be for a religiousreason.
(20:37):
So when we think aboutChristianity coming into the
British Isles and pushing outolder beliefs, um, or the, the
other reason, which I supposeis, is fairly relevant now as
well, is to do withindustrialization and post
industrialization.
So the Victorian sensibilityaround fairies was around this
feeling that the world wasbecoming, um, you know,
mechanized, industrialized, wildspaces were diminishing.
(21:00):
So there was this kind of, um,renewed interest in fairies,
which ironically that, that kindof is.
today, right?
It's a very, a very similar, um,feel and environment.
Um, so they, They kind of, theyserve lots of roles within
culture, but they serve a roleof being other in many, many
(21:20):
different ways in terms of theirliminality, in terms of their
morality, you know, they're kindof this thing that's sort of
familiar to us, but just standsa little bit outside.
And folk and fairy tales give usa way to, to examine our own
culture in that way.
Vanessa Rogers (21:38):
And you say that the way that medieval Christians
worldview, uh, that thatworldview affects how we see and
interpret fairies in moderntimes.
Can you talk to us about that?
Ivy Lewis (21:54):
Yeah.
And I, and again, I would say,you know, this is very much,
I'm, I'm looking from a, WesternBritish Isles worldview is going
to be very very different if wego further across the world and
again, obviously in areas thataren't Christianized for want of
a better word.
But if we think about, um,Medieval Christianity, which in
itself is quite a fascinatingreligion to study, we look at
(22:17):
how the different the schema ofthe world was developed.
So it's quite important to, tothink about where our world sits
and where we go when we die,which in all honesty in
Christianity is one of thebiggest focuses, you know,
where, where'd you go when youdie?
That's kind of what life isabout, right?
You're either going to heaven oryou're going to hell.
So hell is, probably shouldn'tuse the term, but hell is
(22:40):
invented, for want of a betterterm, during the Maccabean
Revolt at around 160 BC.
Um, it's when people firststarted thinking about, um, an
apocalyptic, way of viewing theworld.
So before then, you had, um,talk about Sheol, the grave, um,
and it's translated variousdifferent ways.
(23:01):
It's sometimes translated ashell, sometimes translated as
the grave, but that kind of realthinking of hell as this place
of damnation that you go to, orseparation as it is more
accurately, wasn't reallyconceived of until the Maccabean
Revolt.
So we've got that.
Um, obviously the idea ofheaven, you know, where God is,
where all good things are beingin union.
(23:22):
with God.
And we've got these, these twoplaces, but this is slightly
problematic.
It's slightly problematic inthat there are quite a few
conditions you have to fulfillin order to get to heaven.
Um, but equally, you're probablynot going to be bad enough to go
to hell.
So you kind of need to gosomewhere else because we're
obviously talking CatholicChristianity here rather than,
(23:43):
um, Protestant Christianity or,or any other form.
So, a way of solving thisproblem was to come up with the
Doctrine of Purgatory, i.
e.
this kind of waiting room thatyou can go to, which was, um,
uh, solidified in the 13thcentury?
12th century, I think, or 13thcentury.
(24:06):
This idea of a waiting roomwhere you go, if you've been
pretty good, not quite goodenough to get to heaven and, you
know, not awful enough to go tohell, you've not got original
sin, you've not got someterrible sin, but you're still a
bit rubbish and you still needto kind of work a bit to get to
heaven.
That's great.
We've got then these threeplaces.
We've got hell, we've gotheaven, we've got purgatory.
(24:28):
Um, but it also throws upanother problem.
So obviously theologians, thisis why medieval Christianity is
really, really important andquite interesting because they,
they think about the bigproblems that they, they really
think about good and evil and,you know, and the condition of
souls and this, this massiveproblem of evil.
Um, so you've got this othercategory of people.
You've got, um, good people whowere born before.
(24:52):
the advent of Jesus.
So you've got holy men who wouldnot have been baptized,
therefore still had originalsin, but actually were without
any other sin.
So there was a problem of whereto put them essentially.
So in the harrowing of hell,Jesus goes down and he pulls up,
um, the fathers as they'reknown.
Um, and it's like, well, wheredid we put them, we can't put
(25:14):
them in heaven because they'vegot original sin, they're not
baptised.
Um, so this is where the idea ofthe limbo of the fathers was
developed, so the limbus, um,patrum.
So if you are this, you know,this holy man who's not been
baptised, you go, you go tolimbo, you're not, um, in
communion with God, you're stillseparate from God, but you're
not suffering as such, onlysuffering in that you're not in
(25:35):
communion with him.
And they go there.
Um, and then there's anotherproblem, which is kind of a more
practical problem.
And I think, I think, you know,purgatory is quite a practical
problem.
It's for probably for the likesof you and I, you know, people
who are not, who are not saints,who are not excellent.
Um, the, a very practicalproblem is what happens to
children who are born withoriginal.
(25:57):
but are born before they'rebaptised.
So, sorry, born before they're,sorry, die, born with original
sin, die before they'rebaptised.
That was me making a reallyimportant point there in a
really bad way.
Um, so you've got this child whohas committed no life sin, you
know, they've not done anythingevil, they've not committed any
crimes, um, but because they'venot been baptised, they can't
get to heaven.
(26:18):
And they also can't go topurgatory, because they've not
been baptised.
So there was this massiveproblem, you know, what do we do
with these, with these children?
Where do they go?
Um, and so this is where theydeveloped a second concept of
limbo, which is the limbuspuerorum, the limbo of the
children.
And that's where these, theselittle children go.
And you read, like, really,really sad stories of Parents
(26:41):
burying their unbaptizedchildren under the eaves of
churches so that when the waterruns off the roof, they feel
like their child is beingbaptized.
It's really, really, reallyheartbreaking stuff.
So there's this Real, um,there's this real need to kind
of systematize the world, youknow, we've got Earth, we've got
the living, where does everyonego when they die?
(27:02):
How does this fit in aroundgood, around evil, um, you know,
and, and really setting out thisschema.
of the world.
Now where this is, and this islike a really long winded
explanation to get back to youroriginal question, so where this
is important is where do we thenput fairies?
Where do we put these folkloricbeings?
Where do they sit within thisschema of who goes up and who
(27:26):
goes down?
And the general feeling aroundfairies is that they are too
good for hell and that they'retoo bad for heaven.
And then there's this wholeproblem, they're obviously not
baptised, so they're not goingto go, you know, to purgatory.
They're probably not going to goto limbo either.
Um, and I think there's more ofa sense of, you know, they're
not dead.
So we can't, kind of, we can'tput them there either.
(27:48):
They're this being that kind ofstraddles the world between the
living and the dead.
Um, and so they're a realproblem in many, many ways, you
know, some texts you'll see theminterpreted as ghosts.
So, um, Dando's dogs or, um,Herlihy's, obviously a later
text, but it's got its originsort of in, um, Heliquin and
(28:09):
stuff like that, the host of thedead.
Um, Which probably harksSluwishy, you know, a kind of a
fairy host of the dead, but theyare this, this real problematic
group of creatures, um, for the,for the medieval world.
And consequently, pulling thatforward, because obviously the
Western world is seen generallynow through a Christianized
(28:31):
lens, you know, even down to ourlaws and the way we operate in
the world.
We still kind of have thisfeeling, um, of, of fairies
being slightly liminal, morallygray creatures that are maybe a
little bit beyond the system ofthings, even though they are
very, you know, they're, they'reabout as natural as they come in
terms of their relationshipswith the natural world.
They sit very much outside thehuman world.
(28:52):
Um, and I think, I think that'swhy.
They're still quite interesting,and it's still quite important
to recognize the influence ofChristianity on, on that way of
seeing them.
Vanessa Rogers (29:01):
Where did they play, like, where did they go
when they die in the, theCatholic medieval Christian
view?
Like, did they just not goanywhere?
Ivy Lewis (29:11):
Wow, this is, you know, this is the peculiarity of
fairies, you know, do they die,is, is one question.
Oh, right.
We don't know.
Do, you know, do they die?
Is St Martin's Land, which wetalked about earlier, is this,
you know, this whole other realmof existence that we think of as
fairy, um, or, or are theyghosts?
Are they, are they ghosts thatwere too bad even for hell,
(29:32):
which some of them are conceivedof as being, you know, I think,
I think it's Herm or Herla.
Might even be dando.
One of them is too bad for hell,you know, hell rejects them so
they're doomed to troop theworld forever.
And this is what, you know, Idon't think, and someone may
come on here later and correctme, but I don't think there's
ever been any concrete answerof, you know, what we do with
these creatures.
And I think that's what makesthem so interesting, because
they don't really fit.
(29:53):
In that scheme.
Um, you know, they're notangels.
They're not demons.
Vanessa Rogers (29:57):
So you also look at a demonic possession.
And I know that this is aspecialty of yours.
So just, just like a, a, ashortened version, because you
mentioned before, maybe havingyou come on and talk I'm
primarily about this topicbecause this is a fascinating
topic.
We had someone, I had a gueston, his name is eluded me right
(30:18):
now, who came on and talkedabout the books and, um, and
Jewish folklore, which isfascinating.
And it's just one little, uh,one little element of demonic
possession.
Um, so.
Tell us about how demons and theplacement of fairies and
medieval Christian worldviewworked.
Ivy Lewis (30:38):
Okay, so the interesting thing about
possession, um, is, is, or wasto me, not really so much even
in the phenomena itself.
There are academics who studythat.
Barbara Newman is fantastic.
She talks about the role ofdemoniac women.
Um, you know, how that fits inand, and this kind of stuff.
Um, we can talk about the DesertFathers going off into, um, into
the desert to do battle, forwant of a better word, with
(30:59):
these demons and, and the rolethat that serves within
Christianity.
But the interesting thing aboutdemonic possession is the
exorcism ritual that comes withit.
So there has been a form ofpossession and can, can we
define what a demon is?
Sorry.
Can we define what a demon is?
Yeah, so it all varies betweencultures.
(31:21):
So if we're going Christian,then it's a fallen angel.
Um, it's, you know, it's, it'sLucifer, the clan, um, you know,
the book of Enoch, therebellion, the fall, that kind
of stuff.
Devils are sometimes seen asbeing kind of like minor league,
um, kind of nasties, which arenot quite the same as the
angels, but Lucifer and hisbunch are, are fallen angels.
(31:42):
Um, there's a whole, whole otherthing that I think is for
another day.
Um, but if we think about, um,Other cultures, for example,
Assyria, um, a demon is moresimilar to kind of being a, uh,
demigod, like a, a creature thathas power to do good for you or
to do evil, but is not reallyassociated in this, this big
(32:05):
good versus evil worldview,because obviously that's not the
worldview that they held.
So that, again, that's what'squite peculiar about
Christianity.
It gives you those distinctpolarities, good and evil.
Um, but you know, we go back toancient Assyria, You've got a
headache, or, you know, your cowdies, maybe it's a bad demon
that causes that to happen, andso you might want to perform a
(32:27):
ritual to appease the demon, getrid of them.
Um, Lilith, for instance, who isobviously mentioned in the
Bible, she comes from Assyria,and she's a whole other
classification of their demon.
So there's, you know, there'slots of textual continuity.
You mentioned Judaism, it comesto us through Judaism, and then
into Christianity.
So the bit that I foundinteresting, um, was the
exorcism ritual.
(32:47):
What is common to these rituals,if we go all the way back
through history, what stays thesame and what is different.
So one commonality that you willfind in every type of exorcism
ritual is something um, thatgives life.
So sometimes it's salt, which isobviously essential.
for life.
Sometimes it's grain, you know,it's, it's the food of the
(33:09):
living.
The rituals themselves vary, thewording of the rituals vary, but
there's always this sense thatyou use something of the living
to drive out this demon.
Um, and that was the bit that Ifound interesting because, you
know, when we're talking aboutall of this, when we're talking
about folklore, when we'retalking about religion, what
we're talking about is, youknow, Um, people shared beliefs,
(33:32):
like we're human, we kind of allthink in roughly the same way we
think in terms of living anddead, probably good and bad,
but, and, you know, in slightlydifferent ways.
And it's, it's how those ritualsspeak to us, um, with a, with a
commonality.
So all the way back throughSyria, like I say, through
Judaism, into Christianity, youhave this same kind of, um,
sense of using something fromthe living to drive out the
(33:54):
dead.
dead.
Where this links into folklorevaries is obviously if you start
delving into these texts, whichI've spent a disproportionate
amount of time doing, you end upgoing into, um, what they call
exemplar, um, which are a lot ofstories, um, with usually with a
moral Um, attached to them, kindof didactic moral.
(34:14):
Um, and they, they kind ofinvolve all sorts of weird and
wonderful supernatural things.
You'll find necromancy in there,you'll find witches, you'll find
fairies, you'll find all sorts.
Um, so you kind of end up goingdown rabbit holes.
And it's like tangentialthinking, um, which, yeah, which
brings us this whole worldtogether and takes us back to
what we talked about earlier,this problem of where fairies
(34:35):
fit, you know, are they demons?
Can you exercise a fairy?
No, you can't.
Um,
Vanessa Rogers (34:42):
interesting.
Okay, so let's get into somemodern representations because I
think fairy folklore, fairyliterature is, um, I don't know
if it ever went out of fashion,but it's definitely very popular
today.
Um, you mentioned Sarah J.
Mass, and I know I've read the,um, A Court of Roses and Thorns
(35:03):
Uh, series.
That's one of her most popularones, and there's a lot of fairy
lore in that one.
Um, can you just talk about the,what we're seeing today?
Ivy Lewis (35:14):
Yeah, and I think you're right.
I don't think fairies everreally did go out of fashion.
Um, I think they've beenrepresented in various different
ways, and I think the appealremains the same throughout.
They're, they're morally grey,right?
They're these things that arekind of not quite good, not
quite bad.
We know that they're powerful,they're powerful in ways that
are different to us.
I think we quite like thatthey're associated with nature
(35:36):
and elemental magic and, youknow, and really old arcane, um,
arcane stuff, you know, becauseit's like Sarah J Maas draws on,
um, for instance, the cauldron,which is a, you know, a Tuath Dé
Danann myth, um, and obviouslyher names are, you know, Tamlin
is obviously the, the fairy taleof Tamlin.
Um, So she, she sort of delvesin and out of this, um, this
(35:57):
fairytale world.
Holly Black, I think I mentionedas well, she's like more young
adult, but again, she's, um, shedraws on a lot of fairytale, um,
creatures.
She's got Elfhame, the Latin,you know, the realm of fairy.
And I think, I think we allquite like this idea of a, You
know, a place beyond our ownworld, um, where things are
maybe not quite sostraightforward, um, in terms of
(36:20):
good, bad, you know, um, what'spossible, what's not possible.
Everyone likes magic, don'tthey?
Everyone kind of likes this ideaof magic.
And again, fairies are kind of,not all of them, but I think, I
think that trend at the momentis to see them as beautiful, you
know, quite, quite lovelycreatures.
Um, as opposed to maybe how theywere seen, um, in the past.
(36:41):
Um, so I think, I think they'reserving probably some, um,
combined need at the moment,psychologically.
Um, obviously there's a bit ofescapism and they're great fun
to escape into.
Um, if you think about howpreviously folklorists have,
have thought of them, um,Catherine Briggs wrote about
(37:01):
them as, um, moving into, intoUFO beliefs.
You know, now we have UFOsinstead of fairies, but we're
still kind of talking about thesame thing.
We're talking about somethingthat is other and comes from
beyond with, we're saying spaceat the moment, but you know,
once upon a time it would havebeen fairy.
Um, so we think, I think theykind of fulfill the need to have
a bit of magic.
in our lives as well.
Vanessa Rogers (37:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, from what I'veread, yes, fairies are
beautiful, but they also canhave a very dark side as well.
Right.
And I think that is probablymore accurate to what people
believed in.
previously that they weren't tobe trifled with necessarily.
They weren't necessarily bad,but they were not someone that
(37:44):
you wanted to, you know, messwith.
Ivy Lewis (37:49):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I, I think that's theperfect way of categorizing.
So we've got, we've got like theVictorians to thank for
Tinkerbell, you know, thefairies in the bottom of the
garden, those, those famous, um,faked.
you know, fake photos.
Um, but if we go back to theTuatha De Danann, we go back to
the, the she, they are, youknow, they're known as the white
people or the fair folk or theMary gentry, they're known as
(38:10):
these beautiful, powerfulbeings, um, you know, medieval
romance.
Fairy lovers, you know, these,these creatures who are
beautiful beyond imagination,often female, but you know, some
male ones as well.
It's a really common, um, kindof fantasy in, in the medieval
period.
So, you know, pretty much thesame as Akhita, right?
It's the same as Rhysandam,Tamlin, and all the other
characters, these fairy lovers.
(38:31):
Um, but yeah, definitely there,you know, they are, they are
morally great.
They're, they're beautiful tolook at, but they're probably
not going to behave quite theway you want them to behave.
And if you cross them, you docross them at your peril.
Vanessa Rogers (38:44):
And then also you, you talk about this liminal
space, which is also a term I'veseen crop up and a lot more, um,
fiction and maybe that's justbecause I'm reading more fantasy
than I had been before.
Um, but you see it in, in spaceswhere they're not even talking
about fairies, fairy lore atall.
Liminal spaces seems to be aterm that's used in lots of
(39:07):
fantasy.
Can you talk to us about that?
Ivy Lewis (39:11):
Yeah, liminality is an interesting one.
And I think, I think it's quite,I think it's quite prominent in
a lot of, um, a lot of people'sconsciousness at the moment.
So we can think of, we can use,we can think of liminality in
time.
We've just had Halloween, um, orSamhain, which is, is a perfect
example of that.
You know, the, the time when theveil is thinnest.
(39:33):
So fairies belong to liminalityof time.
They belong to liminal periodsof dawn and dusk.
different times of the year,changing of the seasons, that
kind of thing.
They also belong in liminalspaces, um, where mankind has
been but has deserted.
(39:53):
So for instance, emptybuildings, so you've got like
the redcaps who inhabit emptytowers, you might have different
types of sprites and browniesand goblins that inhabit, you
know, um, empty farm buildingsand stuff like that.
Um, so it's, it's kind of aplace that was human but no
longer belongs to a human.
And then there's liminality interms of, um, the wild, so
(40:14):
places where humans go to gatherresources, things like wood or
berries out into the, into theforest.
Um, and that I think, I thinkthat is, is a particularly.
interesting concept with theworld that we live in at the
moment with the loss of wildspaces, you know, um, when these
ideas were, were originallybeing formulated, like the wild
(40:36):
still very much existed.
It was a dangerous place.
If you've, if you've ever hearda deer bellow at night and you
don't know, you know, you don'tknow what that sound is, it's
quite a terrifying sound.
Um, so for people to try and andexplain, you know, what was
going on in those wild spaces.
Liminal spaces are fascinatingbecause they kind of belong to
humans, but they kind of don't.
(40:56):
Um, and so that's sort of wherewe, where we find fairies.
But equally, I think the otherplace we find them, we talked
about it earlier, is in this,um, this liminality of, of
morality.
They're not really good, butthey're not really bad either.
You know, they might dosomething nice for you.
Um, they might go and do yourhousework for you overnight, but
equally they might be completelyLike your crops, your life, your
(41:18):
livestock, you know, and verystroking.
So they're really hard topredict in that way.
Um, I think, I don't know.
I think there's kind of anattraction in that.
I think the human psychology isquite attracted to to
liminality.
Um, so I think that's wherethey're quite interesting.
Vanessa Rogers (41:36):
Well, and you mentioned Samhain and Halloween,
but also Day of the Dead, whichis not quite as celebrated, I
guess, in the U.
K., but it is definitelycelebrated.
Um, In Mexico, and I'm in Texas,so San Antonio is very, we have
one of the largest Day of theDead celebrations, but this is a
also You know, a lot of theculture, it's Catholic that is
(41:59):
celebrating Day of the Dead, butit is also this liminal space
where they believe that thesouls are the closest that they
will be all year long, is that,um, would that, would you
constitute that as a liminalspace as well?
Ivy Lewis (42:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And you know, um.
Halloween, right?
It's all hallows.
It's a similar kind of concept.
It's this idea that the veil isthinnest, um, and I think when
we think of these, these daysthat We celebrate.
Some of us celebrate with areally conscious understanding
of what it is we're celebrating.
Some of us just celebrate thembecause they've kind of been
absorbed into the calendar.
(42:37):
Um, but I think if we celebratethem and understand the
worldview that they come from,you know, um, we understand that
the dead, were not so separateto the living as they are
perhaps now.
You know, it wasn't, San deathwasn't sanitized in the same way
that it is now.
It was still, um, you know, we.
We only really think of life,and then we kind of don't really
(42:57):
think of death at all now,whereas, you know, for medieval
Christians, certainly Catholics,this, that's still very much
alive and, and, and kicking,pardon the pun, like, you know,
the, the afterlife is asimportant as this life.
So I think, um, I think that'skind of an idea that I played
with.
When I was writing Ferrishen,because the way I conceived it
is I conceived it as planes ofexistence, different dimensions.
(43:21):
Um, which obviously we've seenin sci fi and stuff like that
before.
Um, but it's, I suppose it'sabout having a view of the world
beyond just, um, this, thissecular living world that we are
all in.
Vanessa Rogers (43:34):
And why do you think it is that we are so
separated from death today ordon't really think about it as
much as the medieval Christiansdid?
What is it about today that haschanged?
Ivy Lewis (43:48):
It's a really good question.
I think it would, I think itdepends.
On faith, quite a lot of, youknow, I think that's, that's one
question.
So if I, you know, if I was tospeak to one of my really good
Catholic friends, they won't,they wouldn't tell me that they
were separate from it.
You know, it would still be justas, um, important to them now as
it would be to a medievalChristian.
You know, they're, they'rereally concerned.
Um, medieval.
(44:10):
Christianity is, is interestingbecause of its, its reach, you
know, it, it pretty much tookover countries, continents for a
period of time.
Um, and it was a real unifyingbelief.
Um, and so for them.
their concern was not with dayto day life.
(44:33):
Yes, there was a concern aroundobviously getting food and
having a job and all of thatkind of stuff.
Um, but the soul is really,really important.
You know, the fate of your soulis more important than the fate
of your body or, um, you know,the body is a husk to them,
which is where we obviously get.
you know, demons and angels andstuff coming from.
So it's, it's the soul that'simportant and the soul carries
(44:54):
on after death.
So for them, this life is notall there is, you know, there
is, there's plenty more to come.
So, so it is a very realconcern.
Um, I, I think obviously societyhas changed.
We've become more secular.
We've stepped back from religionand this is, you know, it's not
even necessarily just Christianreligion.
We've, we've stepped back fromreligion generally.
Um, so maybe we, we think lessabout these kinds of things.
(45:16):
Um, We've stepped back fromdeath as well.
You know, how, how many peoplehave seen a dead body?
Um, very few of us, I wouldhazard a guess these days.
Um, and if we have, it's, it'sprobably been in very sanitized
conditions.
Um, you know, death is not a,it's not, it's not real to us.
In many ways, it's, it'sremoved, you know, even when we
think about, um, ways of eatingin, in the modern world, you
(45:39):
know, if, if you want to eat achicken, you go pick some
chicken up from a shop or it'salready, sometimes it's even pre
cooked, right?
You don't have to go off andslaughter the chicken.
So we're so far removed from thecycles of life and death, um,
that it's almost an abstractthing to us, you know, and, and
how many, how many podcasts doyou see that will talk to you
about do this thing and it willmake you live a little bit
(46:02):
longer?
It's not going to stop youdying.
It's not going to change yourmortality.
But we're so, you know, we're sofocused on this, this life and
having more of this life.
We've kind of forgotten that,um, you know, it's going to end
and maybe there's somethingbeyond it and maybe there isn't.
Um, but we're, we're, we'refocused on here and now, you
know, um, and I think, I thinkthat's probably, um, probably
(46:22):
where the difference is.
Vanessa Rogers (46:24):
Yeah.
Okay.
So talk to us about, so did youcoin the term Feifi or is it, I
don't know.
Ivy Lewis (46:33):
I'm going to say yes.
I'm going to go with yes.
Why not?
I did a Google.
I can't find anyone else usingit.
So if anyone else wants to claimit, have at it.
It was kind of, you know, you'rewriting a novel and you go off
and you try and sell it to apublisher and you have to
explain what genre it's in.
Um, and I would say mine fits,it blends genres.
(46:53):
So it's, it's sci fi in a sensethat we're looking at a
futuristic world, a dystopianfuture in which the earth has
been devastated by nuclearweapons.
If you're warfare, we're livingin bunkers underground, you
know, everything has gonehorribly, horribly wrong.
So it's, it's futuristic in thatsense.
Um, and it's very much based infolklore in the sense of, of
(47:13):
humanity's response to that hasbeen to open a fairy portal and
to invade a fairy realm.
Um, because obviously the fairyrealm is this beautiful utopia.
Um, so that's, that's kind ofwhere I've, I've gone.
It's a blend of sci fi.
Um, with fey and folkloric typeideas, um, so yeah, if anyone
else wants to claim it, go forit.
Vanessa Rogers (47:35):
I didn't even look to see if there was a
Wikipedia entry on it, so thatwould, that would be
interesting.
Um, so what other, so you, youhave not come across, have you
come across any other works thatkind of blend that kind of sci
fi and fairy realm?
Ivy Lewis (47:57):
Yeah, I think, I think Romanticy is kind of doing
it a little bit.
Um, you know, if you think ofwhat, um, like Rebecca Yaros has
been doing with Fourth Wing, Ithink she's, she's kind of doing
it a little bit.
So she's got, I suppose, fairlymodern ideas of, you know, um,
military.
It's not exactly the same.
I don't think they've got quitethe same technology.
(48:18):
I think it's more heavily basedin magic, so maybe not.
Um, I don't know is the honestanswer.
If anybody else has to find oneand prove me wrong, then, um,
I'll say Terry Brooks.
Maybe Terry Brooks might be agood example, actually, when he
did his, um, he did MagicKingdom.
Um, he did his Magic Kingdomseries and it was set in New
York and he brought a, hebrought a Magic Kingdom.
(48:40):
So maybe that is, yeah, maybethat's, that's the kind of
example.
And I think Stephen Donaldsondid it a little bit when he
wrote Mordant's Need.
Um, so he wrote, um, a duologywhich was very fantasy, Not so
much fairy, but very fantasy.
And then he brought in anelement of sci fi towards the
(49:00):
end with a very random spacesoldier, um, who joins in the
battle.
So maybe, so maybe there are,you know, maybe there are people
around there, um, that are doingit.
So I won't, I won't claim it asbeing entirely unique.
Vanessa Rogers (49:12):
And you, you mentioned already that at the
heart of your story is this ecocritical, eco semiotic, um, kind
of message.
Is there anything else that youreally needed to get out, uh, in
this story that you're, you'retrying to pass on or maybe just
was in your head that you feelwas important?
Ivy Lewis (49:34):
Yeah, so, so for me, my writing is an exploration of,
of people and all these thingswe've talked about.
So, you know, um, Good, bad,morally gray, um, where, how,
how we view the world.
Um, so, obviously, my, my story,Ferish Inn, is, is set within a
(49:56):
futuristic war zone.
So, you know, the maincharacters are soldiers.
We explore, um, ideas aroundmoral injury, you know, um.
Soldiers asked to do horrificthings, um, and the toll that
that takes on them if they stepback and look at really the, you
know, the morality of that.
Um, there's an exploration ofmental health, you know, um,
(50:19):
PTSD, dissociation.
Um, trauma, that kind of thing.
And then the other thing that Iwanted to do is I wanted to
give, um, new life to oldstories.
So, it's very heavily drawnupon, um, the folklore and the
mythology of Ireland.
So, in later books, the She,Make, and Appearance, Manan and
(50:42):
Maclure, um, Manx folklore atCofenadieri are in there.
Um, you've got the Morrigan.
Um, in her various forms as awar goddess or fake goddess.
And I, I kind of, um, I hung thewhole thing on this, um, Celtic
structure.
Um, of, of, you know, havingother worlds, of having, um,
(51:02):
Evan and Magmel and Fomoria andEarth and Teotangira, which sort
of is their afterlife, you know,their place beyond death.
So I, I kind of wanted to Iwanted to write stories that are
really heavily grounded infolklore, but that feel real.
I wanted to imagine what wouldhappen if we did actually butt
(51:25):
up against, you know, thefolklore and the fairy tale folk
that we've been writing aboutfor so many years.
Um, so, you know, how does amodern soldier equipped with
rifles, how does he cope with,you know, uh, Uh, a fairy.
How does he respond to that?
Um, and that was kind of what Iplayed with.
I wanted to, to really give it afeeling of reality and a bit of,
(51:47):
I suppose, a bit of grit aswell.
I didn't want it all to be, youknow, sparkly magic and love
stories and, um, yeah, that kindof stuff.
Vanessa Rogers (51:56):
And how many are in this series?
I know your first one is comingout in November.
Um, but how many do you plan tohave in this, this series?
Ivy Lewis (52:07):
So, um, Ferrisian will be a trilogy.
There'll be, um, three mainbooks and then there's a prequel
and a sequel as well to, tobookend the main story just
because of the way, um, youknow, um, folklore is drawn in.
It makes sense to write it inthat way.
Um, so my first one obviously isout, as you said, the end of
this month.
Um, book two.
(52:28):
To be out next year and allbeing well, the year after, um,
and then yeah, the prequel andthe sequel.
After that, there may well beshorter stories, there may well
be other bits and pieces.
Um, my novella is being rereleased hopefully next year,
um, with illustrations thistime.
So I'm working with a folkloreillustrator as well and she's,
she's bringing that to life.
(52:48):
Very kind of, um, frowdy andway, um, which is quite
exciting.
So, um,
Vanessa Rogers (52:54):
and is, does this one tie in, does your
novella tie in at all to theFersen series or is it
completely separate?
Ivy Lewis (53:02):
I want to say it's completely separate.
It's separate but it's got asimilar feel.
So, um, Gandhidon again is setin a dystopian future, but this
time instead of the, uh, youknow, the humans invading
Faerie, Faerie has taken overand the humans are on the run.
So it's kind of flipped thenarrative.
The other
Vanessa Rogers (53:20):
way around.
Ivy Lewis (53:21):
Yeah, so similar ideas, but.
Um, but told in a different way,
Vanessa Rogers (53:26):
one of the things that you mentioned in
your work, it was that in yourstudies rather, um, was that
the, one of the powerful partsabout folklore and fairy tales
are those textual gaps.
So snapshots that readers fill,fill in, um, is that possible at
(53:47):
all in a novel series like whatyou're writing or, um, is it.
Is it not?
Ivy Lewis (53:56):
Yeah, so when we're talking about textual gaps,
we're kind of going intoliterary theory a little bit.
So, um, you've possibly comeacross structuralism with Propp
and Levi Strauss, who have thisidea that fairy tales are kind
of hung all on the same, fairytales are all hung on the same
kind of structure, you know.
Um, like a really easy one wouldbe like the hero and the dragon
(54:18):
and the damsel in distress, forinstance.
That's the kind of thing.
Um, and then post structuralism,you have, um, Uh, Isa, who, who
coins the reader responsetheory, and his theory is that,
um, reading is, um, is aninteractive process,
(54:40):
essentially, so the writer, Iput a certain amount down on the
page, and then as a reader, youideate from my words, you
imagine this whole other storyfrom what I've written, um, so
fairy tales do this quite often.
obviously clearly, um, clunkilyin some ways, they'll drop you
(55:00):
straight in the middle of anarrative, like there'll be, you
know, um, the washerwoman forinstance.
So you know nothing about thewasherwoman, you don't know what
her family is like, you don'tknow how old, you know, you know
absolutely nothing, you getdumped into this fairy tale.
It will tell you something like,I don't know, maybe she came
across a kelpie or whatever ithappens to be, and she escaped
it or she didn't, and then thestory ends.
And you're kind of left there,and even, you know, even the
(55:20):
Brothers Grimm do it to acertain extent, you're left to
kind of imagine.
all these other things that goon, right?
A little bit like nurseryrhymes, they're the same.
But when we think of novels andany kind of writing, really,
there are natural textural gaps.
Like when you jump from oneparagraph to the next, it's a
textural gap.
There are gaps in, you know, theimagery that you create.
(55:45):
You'll describe a certainamount, but maybe you'll leave a
certain bit out.
You'll drop in and out thestory.
You know, someone wakes up inthe You're probably not told how
they sleep or do They go off tothe loo, or you know, all these
other different bits and pieces,so there's, there's always
natural gaps in stories.
Um, and obviously what we weretalking about earlier, we were
talking about how many books arein my series.
I, I, it was important to methat I, I don't want to
(56:07):
overwrite.
I, I want to leave there, I wantto leave the reader with
questions.
So my favourite stories leave mewith questions.
They leave me thinking, youknow, what happened next?
Did X, Y, and Z happened, didthis character go off and do
this, and I kind of like that, Ikind of like things that are
unfinished, um, I think itleaves, leaves almost an echo in
(56:27):
your mind, and I think that'swhat's so powerful about fairy
stories as well, and folktales,is you kind of, you think about
this weird little story that youwere told, and it leaves all
these questions, and that's kindof what I like about it, so, um,
yes, is the answer to thatquestion, I very much try to do
it with my writing, um, I hopeyou're not explaining too much,
but just explaining enough.
Vanessa Rogers (56:46):
It does that mean that your, your stories are
not quite as long as some of theother fantasy stories because
that's one of the things about,you know, reading fantasy, you
have to like, be prepared toreally read a lot of pages.
I think the first book of theAKHR series with Sarah J.
Maas, um, was, 24 hours.
(57:10):
I, I do audio books, so I, Idon't know page numbers, but I
think it was a 24 hour book,which probably was in the 600,
700 page range.
I'm not really sure, but long.
And that was just the first ofthe series, right?
So, um, where's yours lie inthat?
Ivy Lewis (57:27):
Yeah, so I would say, so, um, Ferish Inn is sitting at
about, I think, about 450, 500pages, so it's a fair old chunk
of book, um, and the other twowill be a fair old chunk of book
as well, um, but I suppose theone thing I will say is my
writing style is quite short andsharp, so I tend to write in
kind of short staccato bursts,maybe a little bit similar to a
(57:52):
a screenplay or something likethat, just because of the way,
um, so, so when I write a novel,I don't sit down and plan
chapters, I don't sit down, Idon't plan anything, I see it in
my head, you can see the artworkbehind me, I see it, I see the
pictures, I ask questions of thecharacters and I write it down,
so it, perhaps it's a slightlydifferent experience to, to
(58:12):
someone who, who has sat andplanned it all out, um, and I
think the three books, Tie thestory up fairly neatly, you
know, there's a beginning,there's a clear end with some
questions, um, and hopefullyit's framed in a way that's
readable.
My novella and my short stories,and actually that is, that's
what I enjoy writing more ifI'm, if I'm perfectly honest, so
(58:33):
my novella.
Each chapter is in itself a folktale and then you can read all
of the folk tales together tomake the whole story.
Um, and that's, to be honest,that's, that's where my
enjoyment is because you have tobe a little bit more brutal
about what you write and howmuch you write and you have to
think about it a little bitmore.
Vanessa Rogers (58:49):
No, are they, are they fairy tale folk?
Are they folktales that havealready, like, that exist in the
world, or are they folktalesthat are, just exist in, in that
world that you've created?
Ivy Lewis (59:02):
No, so they are, they are folktales that exist in the
world, and they're tied togetherby our heroine, Misha, um, and
she is journeying, journeyingthrough this world, um, Um,
looking for her lost pony, thiswild fairy, and she is a, she is
herself a liminal creature.
She's a little bit in theforest, she's a little bit out,
(59:24):
she's a little bit fairy, she'sa little bit not.
Um, so each chapter you meet adifferent folkloric creature, so
there are, um, there are bogartsin there, there's a nixie,
there's kelpies, you know,redcaps, um, there's a little, a
little English folktale, um.
which is originally theStrawberries and Goats Cream but
(59:44):
has been turned into theRaspberries and Goats Cream.
So it's all these strange littlestories that are probably
reasonably familiar and eachchapter is one of these little
stories but, you know, put intoMisha's world, um, with the
Fairy King, Helequin, who iskind of haunting her steps the
whole way, and then her travelcompanion who is, uh, One of my
readers termed him as a wastefairy, which I quite enjoyed,
(01:00:05):
um, because he kind of shows upwhen he's not needed and
disappears when he is, and yeah,he's, uh, he's quite an
interesting character as well.
So it's, yeah, I, I have to saythat Gandhid and in that world
and that way of writing bringsme an awful lot of joy.
I think it's great fun.
Vanessa Rogers (01:00:21):
That does sound like a lot of fun.
I'm looking forward to readingit.
Um, and I did want to ask you,we're getting short on time, but
one of the things that youmentioned, uh, Okay.
Which was that you structured itbased off, uh, Celtic mythology,
and I just wanted to know if youcould give us just a little bit
(01:00:44):
of that story that youreimagined or put into your
stories so that your, youraudience or my listeners who
pick up your book, uh, mighthave that, uh, in the back of
their mind.
Ivy Lewis (01:00:58):
Yeah, so Gandeden is British folklore, um, and that
is, is a slightly separatething.
Fereshin is all structuredaround, um, ideas of, um, the
gods and the, um, the old heroesof Ireland.
So you've got, like I said, theTuath Dé Danann, uh, the people
(01:01:20):
of Danu, the tribe of thegoddess Danu, um, who are the
fairy folk, the Shi, um, Andthen you've got Mananam McClure,
who, um, takes the role of theFairy King in my, in my story.
He is the, the ruler of the SheFolk.
Um, and then you've obviouslygot the Morrigan, who is the,
the goddess of, of Some peopleflippantly refer to her as the
(01:01:43):
goddess of death, but she kindof isn't really.
She's a, she's a triple goddess.
So she takes the form of, um,Five, the, uh, the battle crow,
um, you know, who foretells El'sdeath, she takes the, um, the,
the form of, um, Nebian, who is,who is the, um, bringer of
battle fury and chaos.
(01:02:03):
She's sometimes thought of as agoddess of fate.
So she kind of has, um, severalroles, but she is, um, you know,
she's a living character.
In my, in my stories, um, inIndek, who is the king of the
Fomorians, um, the Favori, asthey should be pronounced in
the, uh, you know, in thecorrect tongue, who are the kind
of the monstrous race who dobattle, um, with the Tua de
(01:02:26):
Danan.
And then you've got, um, theFenidiri, who are my, my little
tribe of, um, peace lovingfaerie, um, who are based on,
um, Manx folklore.
Um, so, The whole world isstructured on the idea of
several planes of existence, youknow, the, the fairy realms, um,
(01:02:48):
which loosely, um, equate toCeltic mythology, the afterlife.
So you've got Evan, um, or Aon,as it's sometimes pronounced,
you've got Magmel, you've gotFomoria, you've got Earth,
you've got Teotangira, which is,you know, the blessed afterlife.
Um, and that's, that's kind of,it's like a whole other
cosmology.
And it's, um, it's held togetherby, um, the power of the Great
(01:03:10):
Serpent, who we sometimes willsee in loads and loads of
different myths, um, you know,the Ouroboros, the, um, you
know, that, that, um, presencethat gives life or, or a world
ending presence.
So it's, it's kind of, it willprobably feel familiar to
anybody who reads and knowsCeltic mythology, and it'll also
(01:03:30):
probably.
We feel a little bit differentat the same time, and that's,
that's kind of what I wanted todo.
I wanted to almost write it inthe way that Greek myths are
written.
You know, the gods are real,they come down to earth, they
get involved in human matters,and that was kind of the feel
that I wanted to, to bring intoit.
Um, so yeah, that's, that's howit's held together with
folklore.
Vanessa Rogers (01:03:50):
How fascinating.
So we're coming to the end.
We've covered a ton.
Uh, what did we miss?
I know there's probably so muchmore that we could have covered,
but, um, Is there anything thatyou feel like we, uh, didn't
touch on that you wanted to?
Ivy Lewis (01:04:07):
No, I just, I just think it's huge.
You know, it's, it's such a hugetopic and there are so many
avenues you could go down andyeah, it's, it's, it's days and
days of podcasts worth ofdiscussion.
for listening to me talk for anhour or so.
Vanessa Rogers (01:04:27):
Well, thank you, Ivy, for joining us today.
Ivy Lewis (01:04:32):
Thank you very much.
Vanessa Rogers (01:04:34):
And thank you folksy folks for joining us on
this fairy journey.
Uh, we will be linking Ivy's,uh, two books on, uh, our
website on the show notes.
So my website is www.
fabricoffolklore.
com and the links to her booksand also to her website will,
uh, be there.
Um, and If you enjoyed thisepisode and if you have a
(01:04:58):
friend, uh, who likes fairystories, make sure that you
share this episode with them,uh, so that they learn about a,
a new fairy, uh, book that isjust coming to the market.
You can also find FabricaFolklore on social media.
We're on Instagram, on Facebook,and a little bit on Twitter
(01:05:20):
slash X.
Thanks so much for unravelingthe mysteries of folklore.
Once again, I'm your hostess,Vanessa Y.
Rogers, and until next time,keep the folk alive.
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