May 11, 2025 • 51 mins
I feel very lucky when I get to have friends on the podcast. Chloe and I are newish friends having connected in LA over what a beautiful and brutal beast this city can be.
Chloe is a writer and tomorrow her debut novel is officially on sale! It’s called Rytual and I devoured this book in 3 days! It’s set in Melbourne, it’s funny, dark at times and has a pinch of crime woven in! What a combo.
In this chat Chloe talks about her training from acting at WAAPA to a masters in film and television screenwriting at VCA. Chloe has left no stone unturned when it comes to giving this dream of hers a red hot crack.
As you’ll hear in this chat not only has she got the book coming out the book is also with a production company and well on its way to becoming a television show too!
As you’ll hear, Chloe is a brilliant human and all round legend! I hope you love this chat as much as I do!
You can get your hands on a copy of Rytual at all good bookstores or here’s a link to order it online:
And you can follow Chloe on insta here:
And here’s her substack too:
Big love, Chloe you’re going straight to the top, I just know it!! #rytualbook #chloeelisabethwilson #fearlesslyfailing
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Get a I'm Laala Berry, nutritionist, author, actor, TV presenter,
and professional oversharer. This podcast is all about celebrating failure
because I believe it's a chance for us to learn,
grow and face our blind spots. Each week, I'll interview
a different guest about their highs as well as their lows,
(00:26):
all in a bid to inspire us to fearlessly fail. Hello,
welcome to your Potter Rooney. Fun fact about me. Anytime
I interview a friend, I don't get nervous at all
about the interview, but I get nervous about the introduction,
(00:46):
which is what we're recording right now. So great, I've
just admitted that. Okay, With that said, Chloe Elizabeth Wilson,
Welcome to the pod. She's a writer, a screenwriter, a
former horse girl, and a She is also obsessed to
Cold Kidman. I'm sure she won't mind me saying this,
and she has a book out that has just come out.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
It's called Ritual.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
We actually had to record this episode in LA before
I went to Australia because the day, two days before
I got back to LA, she had flown to Australia
to do the book tour for Ritual. Oh, my goodness,
can I tell you this book it's fiction. It is
like makeup beauty brand, set in mouths, cult vibes, with
(01:32):
like a little slash of murderous stuff going on the
side as well.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It is so addictive to read in the best way.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Chloe, You've flipp an unreal. It was so nice to
sit down and shitty chat with you. And Chloe and
I have become friends over the last year or so.
In LA. We're both out here running hard at those dreams,
but also some days are tough and brutal in LA,
and so we bonded over what we love about LA
and some things that feel like a real challenge. And so, Chloe,
(02:05):
first of all, this book's gonna fly. I know it is,
so congrats. Second of all, thanks for being a rip
of flip and mate.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
All right, houbu gang.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Hope I didn't mess up the intro too much, and
I hope you love this chat Boie. Welcome to the pod, Rooney,
Chloe Elizabeth Wilson also my friend.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I feel like I can say now.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Absolutely yes your friend.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Rider screenwrider, former horse goal, former horse girl.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
That is correct, Surfer. I only learned this recently. Yes,
I am a surfer and can I say Nicole Kidman fanatic.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yes, I'm a Nicole Kidman fanatic. That is correct.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, you got it all right.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I've seen snaps of you wearing your baby girl sweat
out of it.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I've got a baby girl sweat.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I also have a mug that I have my coffee
and every morning that has Nicole Kidman on it. So
I'm very serious about Nicole Kidman.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
I learned this the first night, not the first we
had a cough. So first of all, you and I
have become mates because we are both here in Los Angeles, yes,
chasing weird wild dreams out here, Yes, in what feels
like an upside downland.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It is very upside down. And you do the thing
that I'm noticing about LA is you see so many
more bare butts than you think that you would just
walking down the street, like there's there's just like I
think there's a lot of things that I will go
back to Australia and be like, oh that was weird
that I saw. Oh yeah, but it's very strange.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I have literally deep dived all of your substacks for
all your what do you call them tolltales and I
love the way you describe America in a really positive way.
You're like, it is a really yes place to be
from like a creative perspective, like if you've got an idea, Americans.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Like, oh my god, they take it seriously.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Also, I think Americans broadly are very serious people and literal,
Like they were very literal and they really like I
actually was explaining to an American friend last night the
concept of tall poppy syndrome. Yeah, and she thought I
said tall poppy syndromes for about ten minutes. She was like,
I'm just struggling to work out like what it means.
And I was like, oh, poppy, like you know, like
cutting down the poppies, and she she found it, like,
(04:19):
she just found it very strange. She was like, why
would people behave like that? And I was like, great question.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's so fascinating. I actually researched that tall
poppy thing. Do you know that you know that, like
because we all think like in Australia, tall poppy is
like you cut down anyone as soon as I start
getting a win. But apparently, like the flip side of
that story is actually like poppies grow better as a collection.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Oh I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It's like makes actual nice side to it.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
But we're all like, ah Ussie cut them down, tall
poppy Kingwi's AUSSI, you know. But it is so like
even being in classes and stuff here. Yeah, and you
and I ordered it an acting clean did order an
acting class.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We've we've had like some really we went to a
talk show. We've ordered an acting class. You know, we've
had normal hangs as well, but I feel like they
were really lovely activity we.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Have we have done. I think we're activity people. Yeah, okay,
I have. First of all, to the listener.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Right now, we are recording this episode quite in advance
because you, my friend, are bringing out your debut novel,
Holy Mad Yes, ritual.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So we're recording because I'm about to go to Australia.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
You're about to go a straight and once we're just like, okay,
we've got to do it ahead of both our travel.
So it is officially available tomorrow in Australia.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yes that's correct.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Weird to think about that right now, but yes tomorrow
for when this episode is out.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Can I say, having you sent me, I'm really lucky
you sent me. Is it called an arc.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, yeah, advanced reading or advanced review.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Copy, thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And I was like, all right, here we go, like
and I can't. I'm not good at reading like digital copies.
I'm very tactile. It's a real pain.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I always feel really bad if I have to send someone,
particularly with novels, I think, with scripts or with anything else.
If it's shorter, it's okay. But reading three hundred pages
on a screen is just it just sucks.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well, can I say thanks to you?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I devoured it in like I think three days.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
That's so lovely. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So I'm we've got to talk about the book. We've
got to talk about like how it came about. I
know it went to like auction, like insane, Like I
feel like you're gonna have to write an autobiography at
the end of all of these.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
But let's go back, like.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
You you're a Whopper graduate, yeah, which that is not
something you'll find on my website alongside my love Nicole Kidman.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
But yeah, I did you know I went to Whopper.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I initially wanted to be an actor, which feels like
so long ago now, and I guess it was. I
graduated in twenty fourteen, which I guess is how.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Many years ago?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Eleven? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah, which is just nuts to me. But if I
think of all the things that have happened in between
then and now, eleven years feels right. But yeah, I
went to WAPA, I graduated. I kind of followed that
dream for a bit, had like a year where I
was I did musical theater, so I wanted to be
in stage shows.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Did you too with Barney the Dinosaur? Oh my god,
yeah I did.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I had like a very funny year where I toured
with Barnie the Dinosaur to the Middle East twice, which
was like one of the strangest and I also remember
at the time thinking, this is what all of my
life is going to be like, It's going to be
so crazy, And since then I just refer to it
as like the craziest thing that ever happened. But yeah,
we went to Egypt, we went to Bahrain, and then
at the end of the week in Bahrain, the like
(07:41):
the royal family of Bahrain gave us each the whole
touring party and iPhone is like a thank you gift.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
As we were leaving.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
It was like goodness, so strange and really like an
incredible experience, but yeah, I did too with Barney the Dinosaur.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So then and again, I love your subjects so much.
This is how I learned all this. And then you
were like, Okay, no VCA, I want to be a screenwriter.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Well, it kind of it took a little bit longer
than that. I actually, so I had been performing and
I had this kind of inkling that maybe it wasn't
for me, and I kind of was watching some of
the people I had gone to Wopple with who it
just felt that whole life felt very natural, and I
would observe them and feel like, oh, even when this
is hard for them, they don't doubt that that's what
(08:27):
they're supposed to be doing. And I think I like
I Honestly, when I think about it, I don't know
that I was ever like good enough, and not in
a way that I'm like kind of punishing myself or anything.
But it didn't really feel that natural. And what I
really enjoyed most was like being in a show with
a group of people and getting that kind of like.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
School camp feel.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yeah, so I actually the first thing I did is
I went to the Second City in Chicago, which is
like a comedy school, and I did this that's.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Like Stephen Colbert like.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah, yeah, And that was like it was a really
funny exercise in like nobody knew me I was Australian.
I actually did a friend from Australia came over and
joined me like part of the way through, and we
just kind of had this like fun silly summer where
I learned to like write sketches and like I was
doing writing like musical parodies and things at the time.
(09:17):
And then I kind of came back to Australia and
I thought, oh, Okay, now I'm going to really be
a writer. But then I like fell back into auditioning
for things and didn't really pursue it. Yeah, and then
I did a course at AFTERS in Sydney that was
just kind of like a like after Oh Australian Film,
Television and Radio School. It's I guess it's like a
(09:39):
it's kind of like VCA, but like specific for film
and TV and radio and yeah, and I did that
and then was like, oh, maybe I want to take
this seriously. And then I went to VCA, so it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Was there was a bit of a journey. I had
no idea about Second City.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, yeah, it was just for a summer, but it
was really like I don't know if I think about
that time as being quite pivotal, even though I don't
feel like I really took the plunge until after that,
but it was it was a really nice just like
a really nice time.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I can even see in the way you write and
again can't wait to get on.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You have this like dry comedy twang. Thank you. Yeah, yeah,
you're great. Oh yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I feel like I have like a really low tolerance
for things that don't have jokes. And I don't mean
jokes like white at the Chicken cross the Road. I mean, like,
I don't know, just things that aren't like tinged with humor.
I think I think that life is and everyone says this,
I know, but it's so true that life is always
partially comedy, partially tragedy.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
It's just I really like can't I can't sit through
or read things that are one hundred percent you know, drama,
and very like, I just don't.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
It's never going to be me.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I totally feel that, as I totally totally feel that.
So Okay, so you go to BCA, you do a
master's degree screenwriting Film and TV. Yeah, mad, Yeah, And
then he came out with like whatever the most prestigious,
Like what is it? Like?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
You got oh the mark? Oh that's so funny, Like, yeah,
but I do.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
It's so funny.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I was saying this to my partner the other day
because I had to order my transcript to like apply
for this grant thing and he looked at it and
he was like, oh my god, you got great marks.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And I was like, I actually.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Think everyone in our class got that because the degree
was so right about your feeling, you know, like it
was very it was it was really like I really
treasure my time there. But I think quite different to
if you did like political science or something.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Got it?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, okay, So okay, So you go to screenwriting school
and you're like, okay, I'm going to be a screenwriter.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, and then.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Somebody along the way gave you advice which was, okay,
why don't you think about writing a novel and then
doing the screenplay.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, it's so funny, and I actually this is kind
of my first cab off the rank talking about the
This is like first stop on the promo to it.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
But yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I've thought a lot about how much to like speak
to this, because I don't want it to sound like
I didn't actually want to write a novel for the
sake of writing a novel. But after I finished at VCA,
I had like I finished in twenty nineteen, and it
was quite different than when you finished Wopper. When you
finished Whopper, it's like, I don't know if it's still
like this, but when we finished, it was very much
like you're kind of shepherded into the industry and you're
(12:22):
introduced to all these agents and there's like a soft
landing in a way. It's still challenging, but finishing VCA,
it was like no one cared, no one.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Knew who you were.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
There was like, you know, we had like a pitch
night where people came, but it was nothing that like
there's just no instruction as to like how to really
make your first moves. And I don't think that that
is like the fault of the teachers or the program.
It's actually just that the screen industry in Australia is
so small, and it's like there's room for x amount
(12:52):
of writers to be working, and that number of writers
already exist, So the number of people who can break
in it anytime is so little.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So I think that they just were kind of like,
you know.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
I've always said there's a huge bridge between like creative
studies where it would be acting, school, writing music, and
the business side of it and having business savviness, like
totally like because they'll talk a lot about work ethic,
work ethic, and it's like amazing. But then if I'm
(13:24):
especially as an actor, like if you're getting a lot
of no's, and yeah, it's really a resilience game, but
then it becomes a business game as well.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
It really does really learn that no.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And it also sometimes feels like a dirty thing to
talk about because I think about, like, yeah, what happened
was so I finished a VCA and then I kind
of I ran this like emerging writers program for a
little while, which was really fun, and I like, I
think that that was like such an important like I
just think about that time and I feel so much
joy And you know, it was a couple of friends
(13:53):
and I running this program where we would facilitate like
over a month, we would give emerging writers a prompt
and they would write something new, and then we would
put on a showcase and we'd have.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Actors to come and read it. That's cool.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
It was really fun and it was a lot of work.
But also I think I kind of did it as
a way to procrastinate my own writing because I was
like facilitating it for other people and it was really
like rewarding. And I think some of the people who
came through that program and now like friends I'll have
forever and people that, yeah, you know, like we help
each other out in the industry and stuff. But I
(14:29):
think it was the year after that was COVID, and
I think it was just as COVID hit, I was like, right,
I'm on job keeper. I don't my rent was like
relatively low, you know, I don't really have to spend
any money on things, like I should take this time
to really focus on my writing.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And I think I.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Started first writing like little things for Instagram, and I
would just put out these little tiles with like I
guess they were halfway between like poems and stories, and
if I look back at them now, I kind of
I don't want to say I cringe, because I actually
really like cringe culture and the idea that like you
should be embarrassed of trying about trying. But I look
back at them now and I can see that I've
(15:07):
like grown a lot as a writer. But it was
like the first time I had really shared stuff and
had feedback from people that was like this is good.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Do more, you know?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
And then I started my newsletter and then off the
back of that, I wrote further ABC. I wrote for
The Guardian just like little freelance bits and bobs, and
I wrote something for Refinery twenty nine. And then it
was after that that a producer friend was like, hey,
if you could write a whole book and get it published,
And that was actually in between my friend and I
wrote this pilot for a series and it was.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
The Porn Addiction.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, Oh my goodness, this sounded I read the idea
of it like the little pitch line to mate and
that he was like, that sounds really good.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, that's so funny, because I think a lot of
time has passed now. But that was in twenty twenty one.
My friend Katie and we wrote this pilot and we
had this idea for a series about this woman with
a porn addiction who fell one of those scams that's
like I have a video of your pleasuring yourself and
instead of actually dealing with her issues, she decided to
track down the scammer. So it became kind of like
(16:09):
a screwball comedy with these like kind of dark themes,
and I think it was a really great idea. I
think we were still like quite green as writers and
we were still figuring it out. But we had some
meetings with Vic Green and we kind of foolishly like
put all of our eggs in that basket and we're like,
we're definitely gonna get funding, Like this is going to happen,
and it just didn't for like a variety of reasons.
(16:29):
And then after that, a producer friend said to me, Hey,
if you could actually write a whole novel and get
it published, it sounds crazy, but the likelihood of it
then being optioned and you being attached to the screen
project is actually quite high. Yeah, so if you know,
went to do that, it would probably be worth your
while kind of thing. And that is actually what has
(16:51):
turned out to be true, which sounds wild also, doesn't
that Also.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
It just increased your chops as a writer as well.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Oh definitely, Yeah, thousand words absolutely and just like to
be in the trenches with it. I also have your
own quote to read back to you, I know, the
thing that was off the back of that pilot that
you wrote with K the thing that you think will change.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Your life is really the thing that does.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, But I mean I think that's a really as
a creative like, that's a really good thing.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
To know and to like, and as like a writer
as well.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
If anyone's listening to this as a writer, it's like, you
can write so many, so many pitch decks or so
many ideas and like, like even when I used to pitch.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I was with Pam mac and I used to pitch.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I'd pitch like six to ten ideas and they'd be like,
go flesh out those three.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And then I'd send back.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
A week later three fleshed out ideas, and then they'd
be like, Okay, cool, we like this one.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Go go go that crazy.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So then all those other ideas, I don't see it
again for another year or I don't work on them
for another year. So it's kind of interesting to think.
And you might go and going, oh my goodness, this
is going to be the one. And the book that
I thought of mine would sell, The Yoga Body book
is my lowest seller. That's so in and I had
no concept, but I was like, this is the one.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
There's something that's telling you that that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But it's often like you've got blinkers on and you're
not looking at the full picture and you've got that
like that bias to totally, oh well, I love.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
This one the most.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
It's going to be the one that flies. And it's like, yeah, totally.
And that also comes back to the business piece. I
think of writing, which again I think sometimes is like
a bit of a dirty word, but it's it's you're
selling things to people and it's like, I don't know,
I don't want to think about it too much, but
sometimes you have to, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Well, I mean, look, this is a creative endeavor right now,
us being on a pod together. It's also like we're
releasing it to time in with so people can.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
They love what they what they hear pressure I mean
I think you can. I think there's like a really
like conscious way to do business too. Totally. Yeah. And
and I know I'm a pinch older than New Year
thirty or thirty one, thirty one and thirty two. Oh yeah,
because you're Pisce.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like a couple of times I've
been like, I'm Pisces, and you're like, what's your rising
and your moon? And I'm like, I'll have to check costar.
And then you've told me a few things, but I've
already forgotten because you and I so your Pisces, I'm Bergan.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
We've got all these because we sit at opposite sides
of the astrology. Sorry, we're having a little side pike,
but we've got all these eclipses this year. So this
is the year that your life like sets up for
the rest of your life. Damn yeah, so this is
still time. Sure, that sounds right to me. I will
take it personally. Another thing I wanted to say before
we get into ritual, I have to read this Stephen
(19:49):
King book you've referenced.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I'll bring it over to you maybe maybe after you
get oh maybe before you live. But it's called we
are having drinks tomorrow, Ninka, not to I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Sorry. Writing is not life, but I think that sometimes
it can be the way back to life. It's so good.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Why yeah, Stephen King? Do you know what's so funny?
I actually have not read any of Stephen King's actual novels,
which is like, it's.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So bad we would have seen movies adapted.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
I've seen carry In, you know, like a bunch of stuff.
But and I have always like, he's always been on
my list. And then last year I was in New
York and a friend of my partners was like, you
have to read his book about writing.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
It's like it's so good, and I was like, okay.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
And then I think there were two other people who
recommended it to me in the same month, and I
was like, Okay, I gotta go buy it. And it's
it's like anyone who wants to just in creative that
you have to read that book.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's so good. Oh my goodness, I'm like.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And the other one is write with the door closed,
rewrite with the door open.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, that's it. And I mean, this is all so summarizing.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
But I like, I was like, WHOA, Like, I think
anyone with that creative spirit would probably like totally.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I think there's also and I'm this I am going
to paraphrase. I remember before I read that Stephen King quote,
Dolly Oldish and said something and I can't remember if
she was quoting someone else or if this was her
original thought, but it was something about like when particularly
when you're writing a novel, it's like such a long
and lonely process and you have to like approach it
with the attitude of like a toddler with their belly out,
(21:25):
like stumbling around the room.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, like and that really I feel that.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
And it's so hard because it's like sometimes you'll you know,
run ahead and you're thinking about like what people will
think about it, and you just like can't actually write
something true when you're thinking like that.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So yeah, I think like, and you've said this, like,
and I think this is where you and I are
quite similar as artists, not to learn pinnis as artists,
but like truthfulness is quite important, Yeah, totally to write
from that space. And it doesn't mean to be writing
this is the truth for me as Yeah, and that's
why that's not a true story. With ritual, it's definitely
(22:04):
not a truth stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Using your imagination.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
This felt truth like totally from a place of truthfulness.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yeah, that's that's how I see it, And I hope
it reads like that. I think I think you can
tell right like straight away, and I think it's like
totally yeah, it's all still a learning lesson and I think,
I am, what's that like one of the Kardashians. She's like,
this is the year realizing things.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I feel.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I feel like the whole process of publishing this book
has been the process of realizing things and and kind
of like I guess, like kind of coming home to
like what's actually important to me? Like what do I
believe in? What do I stand for? And like how
do I put that into my work and make it truthful?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Total? Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I love the equator to kardash Now I cannot remember
which one it was.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I don't know anything about.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So funny, so good, Okay, we got to talk ritual.
We'll talk to me and see stuff after because let's go.
Let's go the story right now.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Holy Max.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
So I went in knowing nothing other than what you
told like you were like, yeah, yeah you And I
was like, cool.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I knew it was fiction.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I funny.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
If you didn't know that and you started reading, you're like, wow,
You're life've just been weird.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
But I think you'd mentioned there could be a crime twang.
But I think I'd forgotten that bit of it, because
that's totally And as soon as I opened the book,
I was like, hello.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
The first page, it's like a bit of murder.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I feel this, and then I think we caught up
after I was like five chapters in and I was.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Like, I did not realize there's a little bit of murdered.
I can't.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yes, there is a little bit of murder, A sprinkling
of murder, A sprinkling.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
So okay, first of all, as a Melbourne and we
are both born and raised Melbourn, are you born and
raised me?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I lived in Sydney in Perth, but I'm born and
raised Melbourne. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
So as you're describing places Enrichmond, I'm like, oh my goodness,
I can see this so well. And I'm in a
book club here in LA that someone is from Melbourne
in the book club as well, and I'm like, I
cannot I know what book I'm recommending, but talk to me. Okay,
first of all, for the listener. Let's keep the listeners
(24:19):
because I'm getting too excited about you being my mate.
Just wanting to talk about I said before we hit recorder,
I was like, we're not talking about ritual.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I know it was.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I was like, okay, imagine if you were like I
hated it.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I want it, like I don't want to lose. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, So to the listener, if you could give me
as when keys, it sounds an elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
So there's like the short and the midium version. The
short kind of one line is that it's a story
about a col beauty brand that more or less turns
out to be a real cult. But the I guess
the like one paragraph descriptor is it's about a woman
called Mannie who's in her late twenties. She's feeling quite
a drift, and through what initially seems like a series
of coincidences, as she's recruited to work for this very mysterious,
(25:03):
very like coveted beauty brand called Ritual Cosmetica. And once
she's there, the founder and the CEO of the brand, Luna,
takes a liking to her. But as Marnie kind of
climbs the ranks within Ritual and gets deeper into the
company's law, she realizes that perhaps they have some sinister
secrets that they're hiding, and she also kind of starts
(25:25):
to question why she was recruited to work there and
ultimately like what it might cost her to stay. But wow,
I'm surprised that I got that out in a coherent way.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Nailed it now, so so flipping good like I could.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Matt's like, what are you doing, I'm like, I'm reading.
It's like I could not put it, especially like the
So this is the hard thing about the book, Like
not people want to spoil anything, but like it's fair
to say that Marnie at the start is kind of
(26:01):
like we've all been there, you know, when you're in
like you're in that part of your life where you're like.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, Like I think it's really interesting because this is
like kind of attention. But it comes back to that.
I think when I started writing it, it was hang
on one second, I'm back. It was twenty twenty one,
and I, like I said, had had that project that
my friend and I wrote, and I was feeling a
bit disillusioned by everything. But at the time I was
(26:29):
also this is and this is the thing where it's like,
this is the part of my real life that's woven
into it. I was working for a cult cosmetics brand,
which I will not say the name of, but I
should preface all of this discussion with the fact that
they were very good to me. The brand I actually
work for is not ritual. It's very different to there.
(26:50):
There were just some things about working there that were
really interesting to me in that it was like a
very theatrical business it was.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
There was like.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
It's not an actually religious element to it, but people
were so passionate about this brand that I found it
honestly quite funny. And I drink coolay drinking exactly, and like,
I met people working there that will hopefully be my
friends for the rest of my life, Like I adore them.
But there were a lot of things about working there
that I found very funny. Yeah, And when I started
(27:18):
writing the book, I was working there, but I was
also I don't know, just trying to like piece together
what the hell the rest of my life was.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Going to look like. And I felt very.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Yeah, I felt kind of like I've proof read the
book over the weekend, so I've just read it recently
as well. And there's a lot, particularly in the first half,
that I recognize, you know, that was me kind of
five years ago, if a few things had have gone worse.
You know, there's like a drop of like who I
was then, and I feel quite different about life now.
But yeah, there's she's just MANI.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
In the book.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
She has been in this quite toxic relationship that we
come to learn more about through the book, and the
end of that relationship left her feeling quite angry but
also powerless, and she doesn't really have a career and
she she doesn't really like do anything about it because
she's stuck in this cycle of feeling a drift.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, and again, so hard to talk about that.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
It's so terrible with spoilers because I don't care about spoilers,
and my partner, Hamish is he hates spoilers so much.
He's always just yeah, So I'm a liability it comes
to spoilers.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Can I just say, though, because you've mentioned Hamish, Oh
my goodness.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
The end when you do your little acknowledgements.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
And don't ever to the listener, read the book and
then read the acknowledgements because it's such a cute little
that's so nice. It's a little not very very sweet,
very okay, So what n so would it sit in
a crime a great fiction? Because I was like to
(28:58):
I was like, fuck, what is it sitting? Is ye
sit in crime fiction? Or does it sit in like
I always.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Call it a dark comedy thriller, but that's not strictly
that's like a TV description of genre that's not and
I didn't really know that when I came into the
publishing world, and that was kind of I think that
is both the strength of the book and in a
way it has been a challenge with the not like
not a huge challenge, but it's just it's like, what
is it? But I do, I firmly do believe it's
(29:25):
like a dark comedy thriller. It's not squarely a crime novel.
There are crimes that happen, but I think it's also
like there's a lot of satire in it. There's a
lot of comedy. So yeah, I again would call it
a dark comedy thriller.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
That's that is actually the perfect way to describe it,
because I was trying to also do that and I
was like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I don't know where this party.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Yes, well, I think it's been really interesting. And this
is like kind of bouncing back to the business side
of it. But when it sold in Australia, we went
to we had an auction and it was really really exciting,
and I think off the back of that, you know,
we went and tried to sell it in the US
and the UK, and it actually was we haven't sold
it in the US and the UK, which for a
(30:08):
while kind of I guess, like coming back to the
name of the podcast, that kind of felt like a
failure because I think there was all of this hype
around when the auction happened and I was like, oh,
it'll definitely find a publisher in the US. But I
do think the hybrid genre of it all and it
being really squarely set in Australia makes it kind of
(30:28):
I guess there's a question from the outside being like
what is it? And I think that that is also
its strength, But it was an interesting thing to like
come to realize through the publishing process.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I also think, and I could be totally wrong, this's
just me like spitballing, but I also think once America
can see how well it does in Australia and you
come back and you're like, he's the numbers, he's the business,
that would be great.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
We with fingers grossed, that would be awesome. But also
it's like I think, and I keep going on tangents,
but I think it's interesting. It's like within Australia coming
back to that tall poppy thing, I guess, but also
looking at being a creative person. There there is this
kind of unspoken idea that if you go overseas and
have any kind of win, you can kind of come
(31:13):
back and you're respected in a way that you weren't
respected before. And it sucks in a way, but it's
also it is.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
What it is. It's so fascinating.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, we talk about this log It is so weird
to me, but like, so my the way you are
with Nicole Kidman, I am with Steve and legit.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
STEVEO and yeah, that makes so much sense to me.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
But you know, he did, like people laughed at him,
like really not make it until he got his Discovery
show in America.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Damn, I actually had no idea about that.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, so he wouldn't get taken seriously, he was all
those handy caps. He'd be filming it all himself. He'd
like literally lodge a camera on a tree and be
like I want it's cracking, you know all that huge.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
No one would no one, but you want to hear.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah, and then America was obviously like who's who's this?
We got to get him on talent Yeah, and then
Australia fell in love with him.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
But it was a lot of American company's bankrolled. Is
Zoo like interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I had absolutely no idea about that, but that does
make sense to me.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
So I've always said you got to do the Steve
You've got a yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
But then it's like, isn't it so funny because I
always think about, like, we're here in LA, we're mainly
here for my partner's work, but I really wanted to
come and honestly, I've always wanted to write TV. This
is a place to be for TV, so it made sense.
But it's a really funny thing thinking about, oh, you know,
in ten years, what I would really like to do
is live in fits right, And it's like I wish
(32:37):
that there was a clearer path to stay within Australia.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
But at the same time, it's like it is what
it is, you know, yeah, And I think like, and
I do want to talk the business side of it
a little bit now, and I keep getting yourself no, no,
I love I love you doing real.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Because I do think. An Australian friend came over and
said me, why why are you in l You've got
such a good career in Australia, And I was like, yeah,
opportunity in the entertainment industry, like I can't get taken
seriously as an actor in Australia and they're like, stainulane stuff.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
You've done one thing that is so real. Yeah, that's
very very.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think we've talked about this.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
And then like if I meet with an agent like
and I go, oh, I'm nutritionis too, They're like, oh, amazing,
that's the resume. Yeah, and it's just like an add on.
They love a slashy over here, like you can be act,
a podcast, a writer.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
In Australia.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
They like, but what and so like, and I love
Australia and I both love Australia, like Australia as home,
like I see myself there again for sure. But it
is it is fascinating how much opportunity and the way
you were talking about like America and being yes to
creativity and yes to ideas. The thing is like, if
you get one of those twenty ideas off the ground
(33:54):
here in a medium capacity, like when I say medium,
like whin akala.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Yeah, you're not winning an Emmy, just yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
You can go back home and have peak of like.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah, and it's like I kind of I want to
be proven wrong about that, but it feels like all
I see is evidence that that is actually correct. And
I also like, I guess it's changed. Maybe in the
last like ten fifteen years, we've moved more in this
direction because in Australia we watched so much US and
UK films television, you know, we listened to podcasts, you know,
we listen to music from overseas, and maybe like in
(34:28):
the early two thousands, we lived in a much more
sheltered media rec system. Well, I think about like the
people who were able to be like just famous within
Australia and be like a big deal. It seemed like
there were more people and we had Yeah, oh my god.
I think about all of the TV that was made
in the nineties and two thousands, you know, like things
like Kath and Kim that became massive exports, and even
(34:51):
like you know, Chris Lily, I'm like, oh, how do
I feel about that man? But you know, like the
fact that his shows reached such a large audience. It's
it's it's like an interesting time. It's really rare. I
think for things to break through now.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
And I think in that time capsule of that time, you.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Know, yeah, it's like, you know, there's there's things that
you know, we look back on now from like summ
High Tight and things I'm like, oh, man, like.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Why do you have to do that?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
But there's also the great comedy in it, and I think, yeah,
it's like, yeah, we know better now, so we don't
hopefully do those things.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
But I think you're right. I do think like we
I think you're bang on. I've never thought about.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Australian TV and oh so fascinating because because I do
know a lot of like Americans are like, why aren't
you in Australia like you And I'm like totally.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Oh my god, especially in the last couple of months,
it's oh my goodness. So many Americans are like why why.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Did you go?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, But I think like, and this is what's so
cool about your story, Like you did come out of
VCA and try It's not like you didn't try your best,
like I've seen your where you've written. You're like I
emailed every everybody that was a producer or working on
something that I wanted to work Like, yeah, it's not
like and saving me like I reckon, I've emailed every
acting agent.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeahraliah, I'm being like he to.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
I even like earlier this last year, so Ritual had
the novel That's old, it had gone to Peng when
we had sold the film rights, I was work actively
working with a production company on developing the TV series,
which I'm still working on. And at that point I
was like, oh, I feel like I've got enough kind
of going.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
And I was also I just started working.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
For Shameless, which is yeah, podcasting, everyone listening to this, yeah,
and they've just been so supportive of me. But I
feel like I was a full time writer and I
had a lot of things on the boil, and my
literary agent reached out to some film and TV agents
to kind of spook me and be like, hey, she's
you know, if this adaptation of her book gets made,
(36:45):
you know, it'll be X y Z. And none of
them wanted to meet with me, and I'm like, I
can see I can see why in some ways, but here,
like I have had one meeting here with an agent
and like I wasn't even she was in motion picture.
I didn't even have a feature script, but she took
like an hour out of her day to talk to me,
and then she sent me like five feature scripts that
she thought were like in my tone of voice, because
(37:06):
she'd like researched me, and I'm just like, she didn't
have to do that, and she has more important things
to do. But you've told me what agency she's with,
and it's yeah, like it's it's that is again comes
back to this, like the opportunity in the openness here
totally is so cool. You just mentioned about the book
being like the television rides.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Can you share a little bit about whatever you're comfany?
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, I'm like, I guess I can't say too much,
but essentially we sold the book and then what we
actually did and I don't know if this is interesting,
but it is a bit like how the sausage is made.
I at that point, a dear friend of mine works
for a production company, like a quite quite reputable production
company in Victoria, and I had wanted to work with
her on something for ages and.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
You both have bad x's and that's how you Oh, no,
that's actually the producer. I ended up working with it.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
But the first person we sent it to was a
dear friend of mine who I just think is the best,
and she's a development producer, and her company passed on
it because they just bought something similar, and then my
agent and I were kind of like, we don't want
to do a broad submission in Australia just yet. We
kind of it's very early days but still figuring it out.
So we held the rights for a little bit and
we were maybe going to see what happened with the
(38:15):
US publishing rights and kind of go from there. But
then around the same time, I got a DM on
Instagram from an old friend that I had met when
I lived in Sydney when I was very sad in
a bad relationship. She had worked for the same company
as my ex boyfriend and we had met through him,
and I didn't really know, but at the time she
(38:35):
was having a really difficult time in her relationship and
her partner also worked at this company. So I remember
I met her and I was like, oh, I love her.
I really want to be friends with her, but we
kind of will only ever, like I guess we're friends
with probably more acquaintances. And then she, you know, kind
of rose up the ranks working in TV and now
(38:55):
works at a big company in Sydney and she's a
development producer there and she reached out to me because
one of their book scouts had heard about the book
when they were at like Frankfurt book Fair or something. Yeah,
and they had written to her and said, I think
you should try and get this manuscript. And then Laura,
my producer, was like, wait, I know Chloe, and so
she DMed me and was like, oh my god, like
(39:17):
I would love to talk about this book. And then
we ended up, you know, having a series of meetings
with my agent and her boss and anyway, and then
it ended up working out and now we're working together.
So it was like a really lovely I don't know, yeah,
meant to be. It felt meant to be.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, So how can I ask, like, and this is
just probably this might be not I don't like you
the word done, but like this is just a very
basic question.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
But what would you say? Is the main difference?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
So like writing a novel versus writing working on some
kind of a screenplay, because they look a whole lot different.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, on the page, they definitely do. Writing a novel,
you have to describe so many things.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, y.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
And I always like, whenever I get to the end
of writing a draft of a book, I'm like, oh
my god, I'm so sick of describe people picking up
glasses from tables. Yeah, yeah, but that is like a
kind of you know, that's one thing. But I think
the thing with a novel is you're writing. It's the
finished product, right, yeah, So you become like the writer
the producer, or not the producer. I guess the publisher
(40:16):
is the producer, but you're the writer, the director, of
the actors, you're everything, and when it's finished, it's a
finished product, Whereas when you're writing a screenplay, it's a
blueprint for something that will then be you know, made
into a physical thing or made into something that has
another form. And I think with a novel it's like,
obviously they're a lot longer, but you're dealing much more
with the characters, like interior lives. I remember when I
(40:40):
first started writing ritual my I think I got like
halfway through and then, you know, crazy set of circumstances.
I was contacted by a literary agent who'd read my
other work and he was like, oh, do you have
a novel, and I said, oh, I have half of one,
and we started working together.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And in the beginning, I found.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
It so hard to actually like write the inner model
stuff because I was like oh, I just want to
get to the dialogue. That's all I want to do.
And then now it feels very different because I've spent
a lot more time doing it. But yeah, you're kind
of whereas with a film or a screenplay, television pilot,
it's like the audience is watching the thing and drawing
(41:17):
their own conclusions as to what the characters are thinking
most of the time, so there's that extra layer of
like the story being reflected, whereas in a novel it's like,
you know, you're drawing your conclusions as a reader, but
you also are given a lot more information on what
is happening in their interior lives.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I think, how do you how did you decide? Obviously
it's written through Many's pov right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Novel, Yeah, it's first person, yeah right, and so like, oh,
I didn't know how to do anything else.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
This was because it can be like it can be
these different styles of writing, and you're like, and I've
read books where like different chapters of different povs too,
and I'm like, holy shit, yeah, I need my exile
spreadsheet on one side. And then like, but it was
the cool about reading through Money's POV is naturally you
(42:03):
pick it up and you are Maney like totally. And
because and I said this to you as soon as
I finished it, you write so visually.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Oh thank you. Yeah, it is really easy.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
To imagine Maney being hungover and wanting to chuck open cronies.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Right, it doesn't give too much away, I know.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
I think that's that's fine.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
And and so like you're there with my like you
were with Maney. Whether you're red with Money's choices or not,
you're there. And so it is fascinating, Like I think
first person is probably might would be my favorite way
all that.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
It's yeah, sorry I cut you off.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
It's really interesting because I did not even think about that.
I just started writing it and that was what came out.
And get I think it's like through the process of
writing and editing it, I've like I keep calling it
like my apprenticeship and like learning how to write for
a job, like as a job, because there was so
much that was just instinct at the beginning. And you know,
(42:59):
the book we went through four full drafts like start
to finish before it got to the version that's now
you know, going off to be made.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
That's pretty good. Yeah, well it is more than that.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
True, and for me, it was the first time I
had It was the first time I had finished something
that long. But it was the first time i'd stuck
to something, you know, because I started It was like
three and a half years ago that I started it,
and it was the first time I'd stuck to something
for that long. But now I'm writing my second novel
and it's third person, and yeah, that felt really natural
to me because I was like, oh, I don't want
to do I want to do the other thing now,
(43:31):
which is interesting because yeah, I didn't think about it
in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
I like that you just said the three and a
half year thing, because you've also said the golf between
the idea and the follow through.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, you've talked about that.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
I love a guy, and I think that's right because
I think there is this and I don't know if
it is this, but as a creative there can be
a lot.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Of fear of failing. Yeah, you can go to school
and study the thing, yes, and then it's like, oh shit,
I'm in the big schiren to do it now.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Oh and I this is something and I'm like, it's
an interesting thing to talk about because I also am
like I still feel like I have so much to learn,
But at the same time, this is like the first
time in my life where I feel like I still
have so much to learn, but I also have learned
a lot, and I now feel confident enough to be
like I have, you know, at least a set of
(44:21):
I don't know I have some wisdom that I can share,
but I am like, I think it's I think the
like culture we live in with the internet makes it
seem like trying is embarrassing, and guess what it is
like it sometimes it feels really embarrassing, but it's also
the only way to build a career like this, and
you just like I think, particularly with books, something that
(44:45):
like a trend of the last like five or ten
years is like people coming out with these debut novels
that you know, just like absolutely explode. Everyone's like, this
is the best thing ever, and there's this expectation that
your debut novel has to be the best thing you'll
ever write, and it just doesn't make any sense because
it's like you've never done it before, and it's like
the pressure for something to be perfect and like completely
(45:07):
void of any faults. I mean that that is to
be perfect, but you know something that is like just
completely like the embodiment of everything you've ever wanted to write,
and that's just like too much pressure. So I think
there's so much stuff that I, particularly in those first
few years, like put on the internet, wrote about my life,
(45:27):
you know, even stuff I've written for ABC about my
personal life. I now look back on and I'm like, oof,
But that was all I knew how to do at
the time, and that's what got me here.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Like, but isn't it such a beautiful thing about writing.
I've always thought this is like a timestamp and so
like when you do reflect and look back over it.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
What's and all, Yeah, they're actually that was the truth. Yeah,
that was like you know, at the time, like that
was everything. That was all I knew how to do,
and I was really proud of it. And I think, yeah,
I think it's it's I think a lot of people
like I. Actually this is a tangent, but I was
at the hairdresser last year before I moved here, and
I was talking to this young person and they were
(46:05):
like maybe maybe twenty one, twenty two, and we were
talking about, you know, what I did for work, and
they were like, wow, that's like so cool.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
And then they made some comment about they had a
friend who really wanted to be a writer and maybe
they had even like gone to VCA or something, and
I was like, Oh, what's your friend up to, you know,
and we're just chatting about writing and they were like, oh,
but you know, it's just like so hard to do things.
And I was like, that is so scary to me,
because like it is really hard to do things, but
like that's the point like being alive.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
It's like, yeah, it's yeah, the feeling of like not
having that like courage to just take a jump, just
try it.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, And I'm like.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
I also, you know, I think I look at like
the way things have worked out thus far, and I'm like,
I've been so so fortunate, but I also have like
absolutely thrown so much shit at the walls and like
just tried to find something that would stick. And I think, Yeah,
there's a lot of luck and privilege involved, but there
is also like a lot of yeah, failing and like
(47:03):
trying to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah. And they always say, like, your first couple of
gos are going to be rubbish.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
You just got to keep going and learn dust yourself
off on Yeah. Next, Yeah, I could talk to you
all flipping day we've been talking if it was like
funny year. No, mate, we're at time.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
But I do want to ask you one last question,
just for a young creative that might be listening to
this and.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Feel that fear but still want to take step forward.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Is there a little bit of wisdom or a little
bit of something you can impart.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
I mean, first of all, and I say this to
myself all the time, and I've said it on my
newsletter a couple of times, but stop going on so
many websites. You just get off the internet. I think not,
you know, full stop. I think it's like impossible too,
But I think actually working out what you personally think
and feel about things is the only way you're going
to write something that matters to you. And I think
being on the internet and being like completely overwhelmed by
(47:53):
everyone else's hot takes everyone else's lives just is like
the least horny thing for creativity. I think, yeah, it's
like you need to get into that, like, yeah, really
horny for creating things space.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Also just like, yeah, don't be afraid to be embarrassed. Yeah,
it's like, I know it sucks, but it's like the
only way you're gonna learn. And like, you know, every
time you send something off to get notes, you'll get
the notes back and you'll go, oh, I really wish
I could have done it perfect, but those notes will
make you better, you grow.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
One thing I learned in acting school here is like
I used to hold on so tight to the work
and I'd be like, I hope the teacher knows how
hard I worked on this totally fucked up perfection.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
I get for sure.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
And then this year my whole thing is like, trust, relax,
stay open.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
And then do you know how much easier it is
to take notes because you're like, oh yeah, how cool. Okay, yeah,
try that on. Yeah, because it's it's a gift.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
Like and I also, we were just talking about this
before because your partner Matt sent me something that he wrote,
and I was like, Oh, what a joy it's to
be able to like I don't.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Know, just you know, help someone like.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
So excited about the feedback he read it all out
loud to me.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
He was like, yeah, I know, well I thought we might.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Have been doing that right, Like We're so good because it,
and I think you're so giving of your energy and
time even.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Because it's also like I just think about I don't know.
I just remember in.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
That first like year after VCA, it was just like
so fucking hard to sorry, you said, I.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
As much as you want.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
It was so hard to get someone to read things
and care about it. And now it's like any time
if it's someone that I know, if it's someone I
don't know and they send me something unsolicited, I might
not read it. But if it's a friend and they
say can I send you something, I most of the
time will be like absolutely yes, and I'll like take
time to read it and think about it because I'm like,
it's just I remember how it felt, you know, like yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
I totally I think that's such a like good thing
to do. I help you with books as well, and
I'm almost just like it's such a I think it
takes the fear out of it as well, if you're
just like I'm gonna give you some mo like open
feedback and supporting is like a friend of mine the
other day was like she's like, oh, when you give
notes to people you know, do you ever feel like
(50:08):
you're being harsh, and I was like, what do you mean.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
She was like, well, I just got some notes from
a friend, and this friend had just been like this
is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. And I
was like, you got to encourage people as well.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Yeah, it's that fine, it's that balance mine. Oh my goodness,
my friend. I could talk to you all day long.
You are flipp and wonderful to the listener. Ritual is
officially out tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Sixth of May. We'll have to do a follow up
part two.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yeah, because I feel like you'll have more to update
me on.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
There's this there's a second book, so it is a
second book, not a sequel, a different book. Amazing. Well,
I cannot wait to get my hands on that.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So thank you, thank you, thank you, and you are
flipp and wonderful. You are.
Speaker 3 (50:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
That's a wrap on another episode of Fearlessly Failing. As always,
thank you to our guests, and let's continue the conversation
on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
I'm at Yamo Lollerberry. This potty my work.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
For podcast is available on all streaming platforms. I'd love
it if you could subscribe, rape and comment, and of
course spread the love.
Get a I'm Laala Berry, nutritionist, author, actor, TV presenter,
and professional oversharer. This podcast is all about celebrating failure
because I believe it's a chance for us to learn,
grow and face our blind spots. Each week, I'll interview
a different guest about their highs as well as their lows,
(00:26):
all in a bid to inspire us to fearlessly fail. Hello,
welcome to your Potter Rooney. Fun fact about me. Anytime
I interview a friend, I don't get nervous at all
about the interview, but I get nervous about the introduction,
(00:46):
which is what we're recording right now. So great, I've
just admitted that. Okay, With that said, Chloe Elizabeth Wilson,
Welcome to the pod. She's a writer, a screenwriter, a
former horse girl, and a She is also obsessed to
Cold Kidman. I'm sure she won't mind me saying this,
and she has a book out that has just come out.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
It's called Ritual.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
We actually had to record this episode in LA before
I went to Australia because the day, two days before
I got back to LA, she had flown to Australia
to do the book tour for Ritual. Oh, my goodness,
can I tell you this book it's fiction. It is
like makeup beauty brand, set in mouths, cult vibes, with
(01:32):
like a little slash of murderous stuff going on the
side as well.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It is so addictive to read in the best way.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Chloe, You've flipp an unreal. It was so nice to
sit down and shitty chat with you. And Chloe and
I have become friends over the last year or so.
In LA. We're both out here running hard at those dreams,
but also some days are tough and brutal in LA,
and so we bonded over what we love about LA
and some things that feel like a real challenge. And so, Chloe,
(02:05):
first of all, this book's gonna fly. I know it is,
so congrats. Second of all, thanks for being a rip
of flip and mate.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
All right, houbu gang.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Hope I didn't mess up the intro too much, and
I hope you love this chat Boie. Welcome to the pod, Rooney,
Chloe Elizabeth Wilson also my friend.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I feel like I can say now.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Absolutely yes your friend.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Rider screenwrider, former horse goal, former horse girl.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
That is correct, Surfer. I only learned this recently. Yes,
I am a surfer and can I say Nicole Kidman fanatic.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yes, I'm a Nicole Kidman fanatic. That is correct.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, you got it all right.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I've seen snaps of you wearing your baby girl sweat
out of it.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, I've got a baby girl sweat.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I also have a mug that I have my coffee
and every morning that has Nicole Kidman on it. So
I'm very serious about Nicole Kidman.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
I learned this the first night, not the first we
had a cough. So first of all, you and I
have become mates because we are both here in Los Angeles, yes,
chasing weird wild dreams out here, Yes, in what feels
like an upside downland.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It is very upside down. And you do the thing
that I'm noticing about LA is you see so many
more bare butts than you think that you would just
walking down the street, like there's there's just like I
think there's a lot of things that I will go
back to Australia and be like, oh that was weird
that I saw. Oh yeah, but it's very strange.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I have literally deep dived all of your substacks for
all your what do you call them tolltales and I
love the way you describe America in a really positive way.
You're like, it is a really yes place to be
from like a creative perspective, like if you've got an idea, Americans.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Like, oh my god, they take it seriously.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Also, I think Americans broadly are very serious people and literal,
Like they were very literal and they really like I
actually was explaining to an American friend last night the
concept of tall poppy syndrome. Yeah, and she thought I
said tall poppy syndromes for about ten minutes. She was like,
I'm just struggling to work out like what it means.
And I was like, oh, poppy, like you know, like
cutting down the poppies, and she she found it, like,
(04:19):
she just found it very strange. She was like, why
would people behave like that? And I was like, great question.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's so fascinating. I actually researched that tall
poppy thing. Do you know that you know that, like
because we all think like in Australia, tall poppy is
like you cut down anyone as soon as I start
getting a win. But apparently, like the flip side of
that story is actually like poppies grow better as a collection.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Oh I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
It's like makes actual nice side to it.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
But we're all like, ah Ussie cut them down, tall
poppy Kingwi's AUSSI, you know. But it is so like
even being in classes and stuff here. Yeah, and you
and I ordered it an acting clean did order an
acting class.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
We've we've had like some really we went to a
talk show. We've ordered an acting class. You know, we've
had normal hangs as well, but I feel like they
were really lovely activity we.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Have we have done. I think we're activity people. Yeah, okay,
I have. First of all, to the listener.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Right now, we are recording this episode quite in advance
because you, my friend, are bringing out your debut novel,
Holy Mad Yes, ritual.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So we're recording because I'm about to go to Australia.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
You're about to go a straight and once we're just like, okay,
we've got to do it ahead of both our travel.
So it is officially available tomorrow in Australia.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yes that's correct.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Weird to think about that right now, but yes tomorrow
for when this episode is out.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Can I say, having you sent me, I'm really lucky
you sent me. Is it called an arc.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, yeah, advanced reading or advanced review.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Copy, thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And I was like, all right, here we go, like
and I can't. I'm not good at reading like digital copies.
I'm very tactile. It's a real pain.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I always feel really bad if I have to send someone,
particularly with novels, I think, with scripts or with anything else.
If it's shorter, it's okay. But reading three hundred pages
on a screen is just it just sucks.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well, can I say thanks to you?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I devoured it in like I think three days.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
That's so lovely. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
So I'm we've got to talk about the book. We've
got to talk about like how it came about. I
know it went to like auction, like insane, Like I
feel like you're gonna have to write an autobiography at
the end of all of these.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
But let's go back, like.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
You you're a Whopper graduate, yeah, which that is not
something you'll find on my website alongside my love Nicole Kidman.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
But yeah, I did you know I went to Whopper.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I initially wanted to be an actor, which feels like
so long ago now, and I guess it was. I
graduated in twenty fourteen, which I guess is how.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Many years ago?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Eleven? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah, which is just nuts to me. But if I
think of all the things that have happened in between
then and now, eleven years feels right. But yeah, I
went to WAPA, I graduated. I kind of followed that
dream for a bit, had like a year where I
was I did musical theater, so I wanted to be
in stage shows.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Did you too with Barney the Dinosaur? Oh my god,
yeah I did.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I had like a very funny year where I toured
with Barnie the Dinosaur to the Middle East twice, which
was like one of the strangest and I also remember
at the time thinking, this is what all of my
life is going to be like, It's going to be
so crazy, And since then I just refer to it
as like the craziest thing that ever happened. But yeah,
we went to Egypt, we went to Bahrain, and then
at the end of the week in Bahrain, the like
(07:41):
the royal family of Bahrain gave us each the whole
touring party and iPhone is like a thank you gift.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
As we were leaving.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
It was like goodness, so strange and really like an
incredible experience, but yeah, I did too with Barney the Dinosaur.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So then and again, I love your subjects so much.
This is how I learned all this. And then you
were like, Okay, no VCA, I want to be a screenwriter.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Well, it kind of it took a little bit longer
than that. I actually, so I had been performing and
I had this kind of inkling that maybe it wasn't
for me, and I kind of was watching some of
the people I had gone to Wopple with who it
just felt that whole life felt very natural, and I
would observe them and feel like, oh, even when this
is hard for them, they don't doubt that that's what
(08:27):
they're supposed to be doing. And I think I like
I Honestly, when I think about it, I don't know
that I was ever like good enough, and not in
a way that I'm like kind of punishing myself or anything.
But it didn't really feel that natural. And what I
really enjoyed most was like being in a show with
a group of people and getting that kind of like.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
School camp feel.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yeah, so I actually the first thing I did is
I went to the Second City in Chicago, which is
like a comedy school, and I did this that's.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Like Stephen Colbert like.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah, yeah, And that was like it was a really
funny exercise in like nobody knew me I was Australian.
I actually did a friend from Australia came over and
joined me like part of the way through, and we
just kind of had this like fun silly summer where
I learned to like write sketches and like I was
doing writing like musical parodies and things at the time.
(09:17):
And then I kind of came back to Australia and
I thought, oh, Okay, now I'm going to really be
a writer. But then I like fell back into auditioning
for things and didn't really pursue it. Yeah, and then
I did a course at AFTERS in Sydney that was
just kind of like a like after Oh Australian Film,
Television and Radio School. It's I guess it's like a
(09:39):
it's kind of like VCA, but like specific for film
and TV and radio and yeah, and I did that
and then was like, oh, maybe I want to take
this seriously. And then I went to VCA, so it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Was there was a bit of a journey. I had
no idea about Second City.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yeah, yeah, it was just for a summer, but it
was really like I don't know if I think about
that time as being quite pivotal, even though I don't
feel like I really took the plunge until after that,
but it was it was a really nice just like
a really nice time.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I can even see in the way you write and
again can't wait to get on.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You have this like dry comedy twang. Thank you. Yeah, yeah,
you're great. Oh yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I feel like I have like a really low tolerance
for things that don't have jokes. And I don't mean
jokes like white at the Chicken cross the Road. I mean, like,
I don't know, just things that aren't like tinged with humor.
I think I think that life is and everyone says this,
I know, but it's so true that life is always
partially comedy, partially tragedy.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
It's just I really like can't I can't sit through
or read things that are one hundred percent you know, drama,
and very like, I just don't.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
It's never going to be me.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I totally feel that, as I totally totally feel that.
So Okay, so you go to BCA, you do a
master's degree screenwriting Film and TV. Yeah, mad, Yeah, And
then he came out with like whatever the most prestigious,
Like what is it? Like?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
You got oh the mark? Oh that's so funny, Like, yeah,
but I do.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
It's so funny.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I was saying this to my partner the other day
because I had to order my transcript to like apply
for this grant thing and he looked at it and
he was like, oh my god, you got great marks.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
And I was like, I actually.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Think everyone in our class got that because the degree
was so right about your feeling, you know, like it
was very it was it was really like I really
treasure my time there. But I think quite different to
if you did like political science or something.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Got it?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, okay, So okay, So you go to screenwriting school
and you're like, okay, I'm going to be a screenwriter.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, and then.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Somebody along the way gave you advice which was, okay,
why don't you think about writing a novel and then
doing the screenplay.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, it's so funny, and I actually this is kind
of my first cab off the rank talking about the
This is like first stop on the promo to it.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
But yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I've thought a lot about how much to like speak
to this, because I don't want it to sound like
I didn't actually want to write a novel for the
sake of writing a novel. But after I finished at VCA,
I had like I finished in twenty nineteen, and it
was quite different than when you finished Wopper. When you
finished Whopper, it's like, I don't know if it's still
like this, but when we finished, it was very much
like you're kind of shepherded into the industry and you're
(12:22):
introduced to all these agents and there's like a soft
landing in a way. It's still challenging, but finishing VCA,
it was like no one cared, no one.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Knew who you were.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
There was like, you know, we had like a pitch
night where people came, but it was nothing that like
there's just no instruction as to like how to really
make your first moves. And I don't think that that
is like the fault of the teachers or the program.
It's actually just that the screen industry in Australia is
so small, and it's like there's room for x amount
(12:52):
of writers to be working, and that number of writers
already exist, So the number of people who can break
in it anytime is so little.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
So I think that they just were kind of like,
you know.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
I've always said there's a huge bridge between like creative
studies where it would be acting, school, writing music, and
the business side of it and having business savviness, like
totally like because they'll talk a lot about work ethic,
work ethic, and it's like amazing. But then if I'm
(13:24):
especially as an actor, like if you're getting a lot
of no's, and yeah, it's really a resilience game, but
then it becomes a business game as well.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
It really does really learn that no.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And it also sometimes feels like a dirty thing to
talk about because I think about, like, yeah, what happened
was so I finished a VCA and then I kind
of I ran this like emerging writers program for a
little while, which was really fun, and I like, I
think that that was like such an important like I
just think about that time and I feel so much
joy And you know, it was a couple of friends
(13:53):
and I running this program where we would facilitate like
over a month, we would give emerging writers a prompt
and they would write something new, and then we would
put on a showcase and we'd have.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Actors to come and read it. That's cool.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
It was really fun and it was a lot of work.
But also I think I kind of did it as
a way to procrastinate my own writing because I was
like facilitating it for other people and it was really
like rewarding. And I think some of the people who
came through that program and now like friends I'll have
forever and people that, yeah, you know, like we help
each other out in the industry and stuff. But I
(14:29):
think it was the year after that was COVID, and
I think it was just as COVID hit, I was like, right,
I'm on job keeper. I don't my rent was like
relatively low, you know, I don't really have to spend
any money on things, like I should take this time
to really focus on my writing.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
And I think I.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Started first writing like little things for Instagram, and I
would just put out these little tiles with like I
guess they were halfway between like poems and stories, and
if I look back at them now, I kind of
I don't want to say I cringe, because I actually
really like cringe culture and the idea that like you
should be embarrassed of trying about trying. But I look
back at them now and I can see that I've
(15:07):
like grown a lot as a writer. But it was
like the first time I had really shared stuff and
had feedback from people that was like this is good.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Do more, you know?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
And then I started my newsletter and then off the
back of that, I wrote further ABC. I wrote for
The Guardian just like little freelance bits and bobs, and
I wrote something for Refinery twenty nine. And then it
was after that that a producer friend was like, hey,
if you could write a whole book and get it published,
And that was actually in between my friend and I
wrote this pilot for a series and it was.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
The Porn Addiction.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Yeah, Oh my goodness, this sounded I read the idea
of it like the little pitch line to mate and
that he was like, that sounds really good.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, that's so funny, because I think a lot of
time has passed now. But that was in twenty twenty one.
My friend Katie and we wrote this pilot and we
had this idea for a series about this woman with
a porn addiction who fell one of those scams that's
like I have a video of your pleasuring yourself and
instead of actually dealing with her issues, she decided to
track down the scammer. So it became kind of like
(16:09):
a screwball comedy with these like kind of dark themes,
and I think it was a really great idea. I
think we were still like quite green as writers and
we were still figuring it out. But we had some
meetings with Vic Green and we kind of foolishly like
put all of our eggs in that basket and we're like,
we're definitely gonna get funding, Like this is going to happen,
and it just didn't for like a variety of reasons.
(16:29):
And then after that, a producer friend said to me, Hey,
if you could actually write a whole novel and get
it published, it sounds crazy, but the likelihood of it
then being optioned and you being attached to the screen
project is actually quite high. Yeah, so if you know,
went to do that, it would probably be worth your
while kind of thing. And that is actually what has
(16:51):
turned out to be true, which sounds wild also, doesn't
that Also.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
It just increased your chops as a writer as well.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Oh definitely, Yeah, thousand words absolutely and just like to
be in the trenches with it. I also have your
own quote to read back to you, I know, the
thing that was off the back of that pilot that
you wrote with K the thing that you think will change.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Your life is really the thing that does.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, But I mean I think that's a really as
a creative like, that's a really good thing.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
To know and to like, and as like a writer
as well.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
If anyone's listening to this as a writer, it's like, you
can write so many, so many pitch decks or so
many ideas and like, like even when I used to pitch.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I was with Pam mac and I used to pitch.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I'd pitch like six to ten ideas and they'd be like,
go flesh out those three.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And then I'd send back.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
A week later three fleshed out ideas, and then they'd
be like, Okay, cool, we like this one.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Go go go that crazy.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So then all those other ideas, I don't see it
again for another year or I don't work on them
for another year. So it's kind of interesting to think.
And you might go and going, oh my goodness, this
is going to be the one. And the book that
I thought of mine would sell, The Yoga Body book
is my lowest seller. That's so in and I had
no concept, but I was like, this is the one.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
There's something that's telling you that that's the thing.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But it's often like you've got blinkers on and you're
not looking at the full picture and you've got that
like that bias to totally, oh well, I love.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
This one the most.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
It's going to be the one that flies. And it's like, yeah, totally.
And that also comes back to the business piece. I
think of writing, which again I think sometimes is like
a bit of a dirty word, but it's it's you're
selling things to people and it's like, I don't know,
I don't want to think about it too much, but
sometimes you have to, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Well, I mean, look, this is a creative endeavor right now,
us being on a pod together. It's also like we're
releasing it to time in with so people can.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
They love what they what they hear pressure I mean
I think you can. I think there's like a really
like conscious way to do business too. Totally. Yeah. And
and I know I'm a pinch older than New Year
thirty or thirty one, thirty one and thirty two. Oh yeah,
because you're Pisce.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like a couple of times I've
been like, I'm Pisces, and you're like, what's your rising
and your moon? And I'm like, I'll have to check costar.
And then you've told me a few things, but I've
already forgotten because you and I so your Pisces, I'm Bergan.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
We've got all these because we sit at opposite sides
of the astrology. Sorry, we're having a little side pike,
but we've got all these eclipses this year. So this
is the year that your life like sets up for
the rest of your life. Damn yeah, so this is
still time. Sure, that sounds right to me. I will
take it personally. Another thing I wanted to say before
we get into ritual, I have to read this Stephen
(19:49):
King book you've referenced.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I'll bring it over to you maybe maybe after you
get oh maybe before you live. But it's called we
are having drinks tomorrow, Ninka, not to I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Sorry. Writing is not life, but I think that sometimes
it can be the way back to life. It's so good.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Why yeah, Stephen King? Do you know what's so funny?
I actually have not read any of Stephen King's actual novels,
which is like, it's.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
So bad we would have seen movies adapted.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
I've seen carry In, you know, like a bunch of stuff.
But and I have always like, he's always been on
my list. And then last year I was in New
York and a friend of my partners was like, you
have to read his book about writing.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
It's like it's so good, and I was like, okay.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
And then I think there were two other people who
recommended it to me in the same month, and I
was like, Okay, I gotta go buy it. And it's
it's like anyone who wants to just in creative that
you have to read that book.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's so good. Oh my goodness, I'm like.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
And the other one is write with the door closed,
rewrite with the door open.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, that's it. And I mean, this is all so summarizing.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
But I like, I was like, WHOA, Like, I think
anyone with that creative spirit would probably like totally.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I think there's also and I'm this I am going
to paraphrase. I remember before I read that Stephen King quote,
Dolly Oldish and said something and I can't remember if
she was quoting someone else or if this was her
original thought, but it was something about like when particularly
when you're writing a novel, it's like such a long
and lonely process and you have to like approach it
with the attitude of like a toddler with their belly out,
(21:25):
like stumbling around the room.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, like and that really I feel that.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
And it's so hard because it's like sometimes you'll you know,
run ahead and you're thinking about like what people will
think about it, and you just like can't actually write
something true when you're thinking like that.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
So yeah, I think like, and you've said this, like,
and I think this is where you and I are
quite similar as artists, not to learn pinnis as artists,
but like truthfulness is quite important, Yeah, totally to write
from that space. And it doesn't mean to be writing
this is the truth for me as Yeah, and that's
why that's not a true story. With ritual, it's definitely
(22:04):
not a truth stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Using your imagination.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
This felt truth like totally from a place of truthfulness.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yeah, that's that's how I see it, And I hope
it reads like that. I think I think you can
tell right like straight away, and I think it's like
totally yeah, it's all still a learning lesson and I think,
I am, what's that like one of the Kardashians. She's like,
this is the year realizing things.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I feel.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I feel like the whole process of publishing this book
has been the process of realizing things and and kind
of like I guess, like kind of coming home to
like what's actually important to me? Like what do I
believe in? What do I stand for? And like how
do I put that into my work and make it truthful?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Total? Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I love the equator to kardash Now I cannot remember
which one it was.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I don't know anything about.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So funny, so good, Okay, we got to talk ritual.
We'll talk to me and see stuff after because let's go.
Let's go the story right now.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Holy Max.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
So I went in knowing nothing other than what you
told like you were like, yeah, yeah you And I
was like, cool.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
I knew it was fiction.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I funny.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
If you didn't know that and you started reading, you're like, wow,
You're life've just been weird.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
But I think you'd mentioned there could be a crime twang.
But I think I'd forgotten that bit of it, because
that's totally And as soon as I opened the book,
I was like, hello.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
The first page, it's like a bit of murder.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I feel this, and then I think we caught up
after I was like five chapters in and I was.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Like, I did not realize there's a little bit of murdered.
I can't.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yes, there is a little bit of murder, A sprinkling
of murder, A sprinkling.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
So okay, first of all, as a Melbourne and we
are both born and raised Melbourn, are you born and
raised me?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:56):
I lived in Sydney in Perth, but I'm born and
raised Melbourne. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
So as you're describing places Enrichmond, I'm like, oh my goodness,
I can see this so well. And I'm in a
book club here in LA that someone is from Melbourne
in the book club as well, and I'm like, I
cannot I know what book I'm recommending, but talk to me. Okay,
first of all, for the listener. Let's keep the listeners
(24:19):
because I'm getting too excited about you being my mate.
Just wanting to talk about I said before we hit recorder,
I was like, we're not talking about ritual.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I know it was.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
I was like, okay, imagine if you were like I
hated it.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I want it, like I don't want to lose. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, So to the listener, if you could give me
as when keys, it sounds an elevator pitch.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
So there's like the short and the midium version. The
short kind of one line is that it's a story
about a col beauty brand that more or less turns
out to be a real cult. But the I guess
the like one paragraph descriptor is it's about a woman
called Mannie who's in her late twenties. She's feeling quite
a drift, and through what initially seems like a series
of coincidences, as she's recruited to work for this very mysterious,
(25:03):
very like coveted beauty brand called Ritual Cosmetica. And once
she's there, the founder and the CEO of the brand, Luna,
takes a liking to her. But as Marnie kind of
climbs the ranks within Ritual and gets deeper into the
company's law, she realizes that perhaps they have some sinister
secrets that they're hiding, and she also kind of starts
(25:25):
to question why she was recruited to work there and
ultimately like what it might cost her to stay. But wow,
I'm surprised that I got that out in a coherent way.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Nailed it now, so so flipping good like I could.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Matt's like, what are you doing, I'm like, I'm reading.
It's like I could not put it, especially like the
So this is the hard thing about the book, Like
not people want to spoil anything, but like it's fair
to say that Marnie at the start is kind of
(26:01):
like we've all been there, you know, when you're in
like you're in that part of your life where you're like.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, Like I think it's really interesting because this is
like kind of attention. But it comes back to that.
I think when I started writing it, it was hang
on one second, I'm back. It was twenty twenty one,
and I, like I said, had had that project that
my friend and I wrote, and I was feeling a
bit disillusioned by everything. But at the time I was
(26:29):
also this is and this is the thing where it's like,
this is the part of my real life that's woven
into it. I was working for a cult cosmetics brand,
which I will not say the name of, but I
should preface all of this discussion with the fact that
they were very good to me. The brand I actually
work for is not ritual. It's very different to there.
(26:50):
There were just some things about working there that were
really interesting to me in that it was like a
very theatrical business it was.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
There was like.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
It's not an actually religious element to it, but people
were so passionate about this brand that I found it
honestly quite funny. And I drink coolay drinking exactly, and like,
I met people working there that will hopefully be my
friends for the rest of my life, Like I adore them.
But there were a lot of things about working there
that I found very funny. Yeah, And when I started
(27:18):
writing the book, I was working there, but I was
also I don't know, just trying to like piece together
what the hell the rest of my life was.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Going to look like. And I felt very.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
Yeah, I felt kind of like I've proof read the
book over the weekend, so I've just read it recently
as well. And there's a lot, particularly in the first half,
that I recognize, you know, that was me kind of
five years ago, if a few things had have gone worse.
You know, there's like a drop of like who I
was then, and I feel quite different about life now.
But yeah, there's she's just MANI.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
In the book.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
She has been in this quite toxic relationship that we
come to learn more about through the book, and the
end of that relationship left her feeling quite angry but
also powerless, and she doesn't really have a career and
she she doesn't really like do anything about it because
she's stuck in this cycle of feeling a drift.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, and again, so hard to talk about that.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
It's so terrible with spoilers because I don't care about spoilers,
and my partner, Hamish is he hates spoilers so much.
He's always just yeah, So I'm a liability it comes
to spoilers.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Can I just say, though, because you've mentioned Hamish, Oh
my goodness.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
The end when you do your little acknowledgements.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
And don't ever to the listener, read the book and
then read the acknowledgements because it's such a cute little
that's so nice. It's a little not very very sweet,
very okay, So what n so would it sit in
a crime a great fiction? Because I was like to
(28:58):
I was like, fuck, what is it sitting? Is ye
sit in crime fiction? Or does it sit in like
I always.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Call it a dark comedy thriller, but that's not strictly
that's like a TV description of genre that's not and
I didn't really know that when I came into the
publishing world, and that was kind of I think that
is both the strength of the book and in a
way it has been a challenge with the not like
not a huge challenge, but it's just it's like, what
is it? But I do, I firmly do believe it's
(29:25):
like a dark comedy thriller. It's not squarely a crime novel.
There are crimes that happen, but I think it's also
like there's a lot of satire in it. There's a
lot of comedy. So yeah, I again would call it
a dark comedy thriller.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
That's that is actually the perfect way to describe it,
because I was trying to also do that and I
was like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
I don't know where this party.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Yes, well, I think it's been really interesting. And this
is like kind of bouncing back to the business side
of it. But when it sold in Australia, we went
to we had an auction and it was really really exciting,
and I think off the back of that, you know,
we went and tried to sell it in the US
and the UK, and it actually was we haven't sold
it in the US and the UK, which for a
(30:08):
while kind of I guess, like coming back to the
name of the podcast, that kind of felt like a
failure because I think there was all of this hype
around when the auction happened and I was like, oh,
it'll definitely find a publisher in the US. But I
do think the hybrid genre of it all and it
being really squarely set in Australia makes it kind of
(30:28):
I guess there's a question from the outside being like
what is it? And I think that that is also
its strength, But it was an interesting thing to like
come to realize through the publishing process.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I also think, and I could be totally wrong, this's
just me like spitballing, but I also think once America
can see how well it does in Australia and you
come back and you're like, he's the numbers, he's the business,
that would be great.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
We with fingers grossed, that would be awesome. But also
it's like I think, and I keep going on tangents,
but I think it's interesting. It's like within Australia coming
back to that tall poppy thing, I guess, but also
looking at being a creative person. There there is this
kind of unspoken idea that if you go overseas and
have any kind of win, you can kind of come
(31:13):
back and you're respected in a way that you weren't
respected before. And it sucks in a way, but it's
also it is.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
What it is. It's so fascinating.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, we talk about this log It is so weird
to me, but like, so my the way you are
with Nicole Kidman, I am with Steve and legit.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
STEVEO and yeah, that makes so much sense to me.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
But you know, he did, like people laughed at him,
like really not make it until he got his Discovery
show in America.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Damn, I actually had no idea about that.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, so he wouldn't get taken seriously, he was all
those handy caps. He'd be filming it all himself. He'd
like literally lodge a camera on a tree and be
like I want it's cracking, you know all that huge.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
No one would no one, but you want to hear.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah, and then America was obviously like who's who's this?
We got to get him on talent Yeah, and then
Australia fell in love with him.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
But it was a lot of American company's bankrolled. Is
Zoo like interesting.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I had absolutely no idea about that, but that does
make sense to me.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
So I've always said you got to do the Steve
You've got a yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
But then it's like, isn't it so funny because I
always think about, like, we're here in LA, we're mainly
here for my partner's work, but I really wanted to
come and honestly, I've always wanted to write TV. This
is a place to be for TV, so it made sense.
But it's a really funny thing thinking about, oh, you know,
in ten years, what I would really like to do
is live in fits right, And it's like I wish
(32:37):
that there was a clearer path to stay within Australia.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
But at the same time, it's like it is what
it is, you know, yeah, And I think like, and
I do want to talk the business side of it
a little bit now, and I keep getting yourself no, no,
I love I love you doing real.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Because I do think. An Australian friend came over and
said me, why why are you in l You've got
such a good career in Australia, And I was like, yeah,
opportunity in the entertainment industry, like I can't get taken
seriously as an actor in Australia and they're like, stainulane stuff.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
You've done one thing that is so real. Yeah, that's
very very.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I think we've talked about this.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
And then like if I meet with an agent like
and I go, oh, I'm nutritionis too, They're like, oh, amazing,
that's the resume. Yeah, and it's just like an add on.
They love a slashy over here, like you can be act,
a podcast, a writer.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
In Australia.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
They like, but what and so like, and I love
Australia and I both love Australia, like Australia as home,
like I see myself there again for sure. But it
is it is fascinating how much opportunity and the way
you were talking about like America and being yes to
creativity and yes to ideas. The thing is like, if
you get one of those twenty ideas off the ground
(33:54):
here in a medium capacity, like when I say medium,
like whin akala.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Yeah, you're not winning an Emmy, just yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
You can go back home and have peak of like.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah, and it's like I kind of I want to
be proven wrong about that, but it feels like all
I see is evidence that that is actually correct. And
I also like, I guess it's changed. Maybe in the
last like ten fifteen years, we've moved more in this
direction because in Australia we watched so much US and
UK films television, you know, we listened to podcasts, you know,
we listen to music from overseas, and maybe like in
(34:28):
the early two thousands, we lived in a much more
sheltered media rec system. Well, I think about like the
people who were able to be like just famous within
Australia and be like a big deal. It seemed like
there were more people and we had Yeah, oh my god.
I think about all of the TV that was made
in the nineties and two thousands, you know, like things
like Kath and Kim that became massive exports, and even
(34:51):
like you know, Chris Lily, I'm like, oh, how do
I feel about that man? But you know, like the
fact that his shows reached such a large audience. It's
it's it's like an interesting time. It's really rare. I
think for things to break through now.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
And I think in that time capsule of that time, you.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Know, yeah, it's like, you know, there's there's things that
you know, we look back on now from like summ
High Tight and things I'm like, oh, man, like.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Why do you have to do that?
Speaker 3 (35:13):
But there's also the great comedy in it, and I think, yeah,
it's like, yeah, we know better now, so we don't
hopefully do those things.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
But I think you're right. I do think like we
I think you're bang on. I've never thought about.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Australian TV and oh so fascinating because because I do
know a lot of like Americans are like, why aren't
you in Australia like you And I'm like totally.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Oh my god, especially in the last couple of months,
it's oh my goodness. So many Americans are like why why.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
Did you go?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, But I think like, and this is what's so
cool about your story, Like you did come out of
VCA and try It's not like you didn't try your best,
like I've seen your where you've written. You're like I
emailed every everybody that was a producer or working on
something that I wanted to work Like, yeah, it's not
like and saving me like I reckon, I've emailed every
acting agent.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeahraliah, I'm being like he to.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
I even like earlier this last year, so Ritual had
the novel That's old, it had gone to Peng when
we had sold the film rights, I was work actively
working with a production company on developing the TV series,
which I'm still working on. And at that point I
was like, oh, I feel like I've got enough kind
of going.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
And I was also I just started working.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
For Shameless, which is yeah, podcasting, everyone listening to this, yeah,
and they've just been so supportive of me. But I
feel like I was a full time writer and I
had a lot of things on the boil, and my
literary agent reached out to some film and TV agents
to kind of spook me and be like, hey, she's
you know, if this adaptation of her book gets made,
(36:45):
you know, it'll be X y Z. And none of
them wanted to meet with me, and I'm like, I
can see I can see why in some ways, but here,
like I have had one meeting here with an agent
and like I wasn't even she was in motion picture.
I didn't even have a feature script, but she took
like an hour out of her day to talk to me,
and then she sent me like five feature scripts that
she thought were like in my tone of voice, because
(37:06):
she'd like researched me, and I'm just like, she didn't
have to do that, and she has more important things
to do. But you've told me what agency she's with,
and it's yeah, like it's it's that is again comes
back to this, like the opportunity in the openness here
totally is so cool. You just mentioned about the book
being like the television rides.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Can you share a little bit about whatever you're comfany?
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Yeah, I'm like, I guess I can't say too much,
but essentially we sold the book and then what we
actually did and I don't know if this is interesting,
but it is a bit like how the sausage is made.
I at that point, a dear friend of mine works
for a production company, like a quite quite reputable production
company in Victoria, and I had wanted to work with
her on something for ages and.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
You both have bad x's and that's how you Oh, no,
that's actually the producer. I ended up working with it.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
But the first person we sent it to was a
dear friend of mine who I just think is the best,
and she's a development producer, and her company passed on
it because they just bought something similar, and then my
agent and I were kind of like, we don't want
to do a broad submission in Australia just yet. We
kind of it's very early days but still figuring it out.
So we held the rights for a little bit and
we were maybe going to see what happened with the
(38:15):
US publishing rights and kind of go from there. But
then around the same time, I got a DM on
Instagram from an old friend that I had met when
I lived in Sydney when I was very sad in
a bad relationship. She had worked for the same company
as my ex boyfriend and we had met through him,
and I didn't really know, but at the time she
(38:35):
was having a really difficult time in her relationship and
her partner also worked at this company. So I remember
I met her and I was like, oh, I love her.
I really want to be friends with her, but we
kind of will only ever, like I guess we're friends
with probably more acquaintances. And then she, you know, kind
of rose up the ranks working in TV and now
(38:55):
works at a big company in Sydney and she's a
development producer there and she reached out to me because
one of their book scouts had heard about the book
when they were at like Frankfurt book Fair or something. Yeah,
and they had written to her and said, I think
you should try and get this manuscript. And then Laura,
my producer, was like, wait, I know Chloe, and so
she DMed me and was like, oh my god, like
(39:17):
I would love to talk about this book. And then
we ended up, you know, having a series of meetings
with my agent and her boss and anyway, and then
it ended up working out and now we're working together.
So it was like a really lovely I don't know, yeah,
meant to be. It felt meant to be.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, So how can I ask, like, and this is
just probably this might be not I don't like you
the word done, but like this is just a very
basic question.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
But what would you say? Is the main difference?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
So like writing a novel versus writing working on some
kind of a screenplay, because they look a whole lot different.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, on the page, they definitely do. Writing a novel,
you have to describe so many things.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, y.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
And I always like, whenever I get to the end
of writing a draft of a book, I'm like, oh
my god, I'm so sick of describe people picking up
glasses from tables. Yeah, yeah, but that is like a
kind of you know, that's one thing. But I think
the thing with a novel is you're writing. It's the
finished product, right, yeah, So you become like the writer
the producer, or not the producer. I guess the publisher
(40:16):
is the producer, but you're the writer, the director, of
the actors, you're everything, and when it's finished, it's a
finished product, Whereas when you're writing a screenplay, it's a
blueprint for something that will then be you know, made
into a physical thing or made into something that has
another form. And I think with a novel it's like,
obviously they're a lot longer, but you're dealing much more
with the characters, like interior lives. I remember when I
(40:40):
first started writing ritual my I think I got like
halfway through and then, you know, crazy set of circumstances.
I was contacted by a literary agent who'd read my
other work and he was like, oh, do you have
a novel, and I said, oh, I have half of one,
and we started working together.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And in the beginning, I found.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
It so hard to actually like write the inner model
stuff because I was like oh, I just want to
get to the dialogue. That's all I want to do.
And then now it feels very different because I've spent
a lot more time doing it. But yeah, you're kind
of whereas with a film or a screenplay, television pilot,
it's like the audience is watching the thing and drawing
(41:17):
their own conclusions as to what the characters are thinking
most of the time, so there's that extra layer of
like the story being reflected, whereas in a novel it's like,
you know, you're drawing your conclusions as a reader, but
you also are given a lot more information on what
is happening in their interior lives.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I think, how do you how did you decide? Obviously
it's written through Many's pov right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Novel, Yeah, it's first person, yeah right, and so like, oh,
I didn't know how to do anything else.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
This was because it can be like it can be
these different styles of writing, and you're like, and I've
read books where like different chapters of different povs too,
and I'm like, holy shit, yeah, I need my exile
spreadsheet on one side. And then like, but it was
the cool about reading through Money's POV is naturally you
(42:03):
pick it up and you are Maney like totally. And
because and I said this to you as soon as
I finished it, you write so visually.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Oh thank you. Yeah, it is really easy.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
To imagine Maney being hungover and wanting to chuck open cronies.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Right, it doesn't give too much away, I know.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
I think that's that's fine.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
And and so like you're there with my like you
were with Maney. Whether you're red with Money's choices or not,
you're there. And so it is fascinating, Like I think
first person is probably might would be my favorite way
all that.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
It's yeah, sorry I cut you off.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
It's really interesting because I did not even think about that.
I just started writing it and that was what came out.
And get I think it's like through the process of
writing and editing it, I've like I keep calling it
like my apprenticeship and like learning how to write for
a job, like as a job, because there was so
much that was just instinct at the beginning. And you know,
(42:59):
the book we went through four full drafts like start
to finish before it got to the version that's now
you know, going off to be made.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
That's pretty good. Yeah, well it is more than that.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
True, and for me, it was the first time I
had It was the first time I had finished something
that long. But it was the first time i'd stuck
to something, you know, because I started It was like
three and a half years ago that I started it,
and it was the first time I'd stuck to something
for that long. But now I'm writing my second novel
and it's third person, and yeah, that felt really natural
to me because I was like, oh, I don't want
to do I want to do the other thing now,
(43:31):
which is interesting because yeah, I didn't think about it
in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
I like that you just said the three and a
half year thing, because you've also said the golf between
the idea and the follow through.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah, you've talked about that.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
I love a guy, and I think that's right because
I think there is this and I don't know if
it is this, but as a creative there can be
a lot.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Of fear of failing. Yeah, you can go to school
and study the thing, yes, and then it's like, oh shit,
I'm in the big schiren to do it now.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Oh and I this is something and I'm like, it's
an interesting thing to talk about because I also am
like I still feel like I have so much to learn,
But at the same time, this is like the first
time in my life where I feel like I still
have so much to learn, but I also have learned
a lot, and I now feel confident enough to be
like I have, you know, at least a set of
(44:21):
I don't know I have some wisdom that I can share,
but I am like, I think it's I think the
like culture we live in with the internet makes it
seem like trying is embarrassing, and guess what it is
like it sometimes it feels really embarrassing, but it's also
the only way to build a career like this, and
you just like I think, particularly with books, something that
(44:45):
like a trend of the last like five or ten
years is like people coming out with these debut novels
that you know, just like absolutely explode. Everyone's like, this
is the best thing ever, and there's this expectation that
your debut novel has to be the best thing you'll
ever write, and it just doesn't make any sense because
it's like you've never done it before, and it's like
the pressure for something to be perfect and like completely
(45:07):
void of any faults. I mean that that is to
be perfect, but you know something that is like just
completely like the embodiment of everything you've ever wanted to write,
and that's just like too much pressure. So I think
there's so much stuff that I, particularly in those first
few years, like put on the internet, wrote about my life,
(45:27):
you know, even stuff I've written for ABC about my
personal life. I now look back on and I'm like, oof,
But that was all I knew how to do at
the time, and that's what got me here.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Like, but isn't it such a beautiful thing about writing.
I've always thought this is like a timestamp and so
like when you do reflect and look back over it.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
What's and all, Yeah, they're actually that was the truth. Yeah,
that was like you know, at the time, like that
was everything. That was all I knew how to do,
and I was really proud of it. And I think, yeah,
I think it's it's I think a lot of people
like I. Actually this is a tangent, but I was
at the hairdresser last year before I moved here, and
I was talking to this young person and they were
(46:05):
like maybe maybe twenty one, twenty two, and we were
talking about, you know, what I did for work, and
they were like, wow, that's like so cool.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
And then they made some comment about they had a
friend who really wanted to be a writer and maybe
they had even like gone to VCA or something, and
I was like, Oh, what's your friend up to, you know,
and we're just chatting about writing and they were like, oh,
but you know, it's just like so hard to do things.
And I was like, that is so scary to me,
because like it is really hard to do things, but
like that's the point like being alive.
Speaker 1 (46:33):
It's like, yeah, it's yeah, the feeling of like not
having that like courage to just take a jump, just
try it.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yeah, And I'm like.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
I also, you know, I think I look at like
the way things have worked out thus far, and I'm like,
I've been so so fortunate, but I also have like
absolutely thrown so much shit at the walls and like
just tried to find something that would stick. And I think, Yeah,
there's a lot of luck and privilege involved, but there
is also like a lot of yeah, failing and like
(47:03):
trying to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah. And they always say, like, your first couple of
gos are going to be rubbish.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
You just got to keep going and learn dust yourself
off on Yeah. Next, Yeah, I could talk to you
all flipping day we've been talking if it was like
funny year. No, mate, we're at time.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
But I do want to ask you one last question,
just for a young creative that might be listening to
this and.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Feel that fear but still want to take step forward.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Is there a little bit of wisdom or a little
bit of something you can impart.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
I mean, first of all, and I say this to
myself all the time, and I've said it on my
newsletter a couple of times, but stop going on so
many websites. You just get off the internet. I think not,
you know, full stop. I think it's like impossible too,
But I think actually working out what you personally think
and feel about things is the only way you're going
to write something that matters to you. And I think
being on the internet and being like completely overwhelmed by
(47:53):
everyone else's hot takes everyone else's lives just is like
the least horny thing for creativity. I think, yeah, it's
like you need to get into that, like, yeah, really
horny for creating things space.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
Also just like, yeah, don't be afraid to be embarrassed. Yeah,
it's like, I know it sucks, but it's like the
only way you're gonna learn. And like, you know, every
time you send something off to get notes, you'll get
the notes back and you'll go, oh, I really wish
I could have done it perfect, but those notes will
make you better, you grow.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
One thing I learned in acting school here is like
I used to hold on so tight to the work
and I'd be like, I hope the teacher knows how
hard I worked on this totally fucked up perfection.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
I get for sure.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
And then this year my whole thing is like, trust, relax,
stay open.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
And then do you know how much easier it is
to take notes because you're like, oh yeah, how cool. Okay, yeah,
try that on. Yeah, because it's it's a gift.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
Like and I also, we were just talking about this
before because your partner Matt sent me something that he wrote,
and I was like, Oh, what a joy it's to
be able to like I don't.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Know, just you know, help someone like.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
So excited about the feedback he read it all out
loud to me.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
He was like, yeah, I know, well I thought we might.
Speaker 1 (49:10):
Have been doing that right, Like We're so good because it,
and I think you're so giving of your energy and
time even.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Because it's also like I just think about I don't know.
I just remember in.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
That first like year after VCA, it was just like
so fucking hard to sorry, you said, I.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
As much as you want.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
It was so hard to get someone to read things
and care about it. And now it's like any time
if it's someone that I know, if it's someone I
don't know and they send me something unsolicited, I might
not read it. But if it's a friend and they
say can I send you something, I most of the
time will be like absolutely yes, and I'll like take
time to read it and think about it because I'm like,
it's just I remember how it felt, you know, like yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
I totally I think that's such a like good thing
to do. I help you with books as well, and
I'm almost just like it's such a I think it
takes the fear out of it as well, if you're
just like I'm gonna give you some mo like open
feedback and supporting is like a friend of mine the
other day was like she's like, oh, when you give
notes to people you know, do you ever feel like
(50:08):
you're being harsh, and I was like, what do you mean.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
She was like, well, I just got some notes from
a friend, and this friend had just been like this
is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. And I
was like, you got to encourage people as well.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Yeah, it's that fine, it's that balance mine. Oh my goodness,
my friend. I could talk to you all day long.
You are flipp and wonderful to the listener. Ritual is
officially out tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Sixth of May. We'll have to do a follow up
part two.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yeah, because I feel like you'll have more to update
me on.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
There's this there's a second book, so it is a
second book, not a sequel, a different book. Amazing. Well,
I cannot wait to get my hands on that.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So thank you, thank you, thank you, and you are
flipp and wonderful. You are.
Speaker 3 (50:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
That's a wrap on another episode of Fearlessly Failing. As always,
thank you to our guests, and let's continue the conversation
on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
I'm at Yamo Lollerberry. This potty my work.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
For podcast is available on all streaming platforms. I'd love
it if you could subscribe, rape and comment, and of
course spread the love.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.