October 21, 2025 • 46 mins
Learn the five key plot points that turn struggling manuscripts into finished novels—and exactly where they need to appear in your story structure.
Have you ever felt like your story just isn't clicking, no matter how much effort you've put into it? Maybe you've polished your prose, developed your characters, and built an intriguing world—but something still feels off.
In this episode, I sat down with Kristina Stanley—award-winning author, fiction editor, and founder of Fictionary—to uncover the structural secrets that transform good stories into unforgettable ones.
Here's what we discussed:
- [03:15] Why your beautifully written novel might feel "stuck" despite compelling characters—and the structural secret that transforms wandering manuscripts into page-turners
- [05:45] The five essential scenes that form every successful novel's backbone, including the exact percentages where they should appear in your manuscript
- [23:45] Why the midpoint is where most novels soar or lose their way—and how to create the shift that keeps readers hooked through Act Two
- [30:30] Plot Point 2's dual purpose that most writers miss: combining your darkest moment with the crucial information needed for the climax
- [34:30] How to craft climaxes that satisfy readers by answering your story's central question (not just adding exciting action scenes)
Plus, Kristina shares her "story test" for evaluating your manuscript and explains why fixing structure before polishing prose will save you months of revision time.
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
- Fictionary.co
- Grab Fictionary’s course, An Insider's View of Story Editing, for FREE here (a $39 value)
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If you loved this episode, please take a moment to follow the show and leave a review on Apple Podcasts! Your review will help other writers find this podcast and get the insights they need to finish their books. Thanks for tuning in to The Fiction Writing Made Easy Podcast! See you next week!
👉 Looking for a transcript? If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, scroll down below the episode player until you see the transcript.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
But if you want to write genre fiction, have a
commercially successful story,readers have come to expect
certain things.
And this has started thebeginning of the time.
The very first stories havethese.
And it has not changed.
There's all different ways wecan describe these things.
There's different words used,there's different levels of
depth, but the fundamentalstructure is there.
(00:23):
And so I think that all writersshould have the opportunity to
know what this is and then useit for their writing if they
choose to do so or they know itand then branch off from there
into something new and wonderfulthat becomes a new pattern.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
Podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo, andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable, and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:59):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I have avery special guest joining me.
Her name is Christina Stanley,and she is an award-winning
author, fiction editor, and thefounder and CEO of Fictionary,
an incredible software designedto help creative writers improve
(01:20):
the plot, characters, andsettings of their novels.
And in this episode, Christinaand I are diving deep into the
five structural scenes that makeup the backbone of every great
story.
We're going to talk about whythese scenes are so important,
how they align with thethree-act structure, and how you
can use them to create a storythat's both compelling and
cohesive.
So whether you're in the middleof drafting knee deep in
(01:43):
revisions or just starting tooutline your novel, this episode
is packed with actionable tipsto help you move forward with
clarity and confidence.
So without further ado, let'sdive right into my conversation
with Christina Stanley.
Hi, Christina.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy Podcast.
Hi, Sylvanna.
Thanks for hosting today.
Super excited to be here to talkabout story structure, my
(02:04):
favorite, favorite, favoritetopic.
I'm excited too.
So, Christina, can you kick usoff by giving a little
introduction of who you are andwhat you do?
SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
Sure.
Yeah.
So I'm a fiction writer.
I'm a instructional editor.
I run a company calledFictionary.
We have the Fictionary Schoolfor Writers and Editors.
And our goal is basically tohelp writers tell a great story.
That's it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Yeah.
And you guys have a lot of greatprograms and freebies and all
that kind of stuff.
So we will link to all that inthe show notes.
But what draws you to storystructure or like why is this
the thing you're so nerdy about?
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
So, okay, so obviously I love to read.
I've grown up reading.
It's a thing, I'm sure it iswith most writers.
You love to read.
And I got interested in storystructure when I started really
thinking about how to put a booktogether.
And when I was writing before Iwas editing, before fictionary
as a company, and I likepatterns.
And when you start to seepatterns in a story, you're
(02:59):
like, oh, that's in this story.
Well, that's in this story.
Well, that's in this story andin the same location.
Huh.
What is that about?
And so it's just mind-candy oflike to see it.
And once you see it, you can'tunsee it.
Like it's just there.
And every book you read, you'relike, oh, there's this.
There's this.
And you start to see thedifferent genres have different
patterns.
(03:19):
You know, even between a mysteryand a thriller, the patterns are
different.
It's and so I don't know.
I just find it very exciting,interesting.
I I have a my my background, Ihave a degree in in um computer
mathematics.
So I I like, I just likestructure.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
Yeah.
I love that you said mind candybecause that's exactly how it
feels to me.
I also love the patterns.
I love seeing like the whybehind the patterns and figuring
that out.
And then also being able toshare it with other people,
which is kind of what we both dofor a living.
So yes, I think that's supercool.
But what we're gonna talk aboutis like the five key scenes.
So these make up the spine orthe backbone of the story.
(03:57):
Why do we start here?
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
So I believe that you can write anything you want.
That's great.
But if you want to write genrefiction, have a commercially
successful story, readers havecome to expect certain things.
And this has started thebeginning of the time.
The very first stories havethese, and it has not changed.
There's all different ways wecan describe these things.
(04:21):
There's different words used,there's different levels of
depth, but the fundamentalstructure is there.
And so I think that all writersshould have the opportunity to
know what this is and then useit for their writing if they
choose to do so, or they know itand then branch off from there
into something new and wonderfulthat becomes a new pattern.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
Yeah.
So why don't you give us anoverview of the five scenes and
then we'll dive into each one ofthem a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
Okay, so I'll give people a chance to take notes.
So scene number one is theinciting incident.
And I'll talk through thedetails behind these at the end.
But so we have scene number one,the inciting incident.
Scene number two is plot pointone, scene number three is the
middle plot point, scene numberfour is plot point two, and the
climax is the fifth scene.
(05:07):
So we have five scenes.
Act one goes from your veryfirst page up to plot point one,
act two is the biggie, and itgoes from plot point one to plot
point two, which is basically50% of the story.
And then act three starts atplot point two and goes to the
very end of your book, your lastword.
And those boundaries are holdthem loosely.
(05:29):
Your your plot point two, itcould end act two or start act
three.
It doesn't matter where on thatline it sits, they're generally
just in those places.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
Yeah, but let's start with number one.
So that was the excitingincident.
I know that people are gonna belike, I'm taking notes.
Where does this thing happen?
Tell me all about it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
All right.
So the inciting incident, allthis is it's a shakeup to the
protagonist's world.
So something changes.
And so if we think of a romancenovel, it's when the characters
meet.
If they don't meet, there's noromance.
It's just when they meet.
That's it.
A mystery, either it's adetective accepting the case, or
(06:07):
they find a dead body, orsomebody's killed.
Somewhere in there, it has a bitmore variety than a romance.
And so what we're looking for issomething early in the novel.
It could happen before thenovel, even.
And it needs to happen no laterthan 10 to 15 percent.
And the reason for that is ifyou're reading about a
character's ordinary world,which we want, we want to know
(06:28):
who is this character before weget engaged.
If they don't do anythingdifferent for too long, it's
dull.
People go, well, what'shappening in this story?
There needs to be an incitingincident either before the story
starts.
Fourth Wing is a beautifulexample of that, where Violet,
who's the main character, hermother orders her to go from
(06:50):
working in a library to dragoncollege.
Boom.
And she has to do it.
And she has six months to getready.
So she's a little Miss BookReader.
You know, I'm gonna ridedragons.
That's her insight, her worldhas changed.
Before the book starts, it'stold in backstory, an early
backstory.
So, same rule early in the book.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
And something where I see writers go wrong when they
create an inciting incident,there's a few things, but one of
them is it's something that'skind of expected.
So it's like they'll say, Well,my character's about to start
college.
Let's pretend it's dragoncollege, and they've known that
they're going to college in thefall.
And so then they say, Well, theinciting incident is day one of
college.
It's what kicks off the journey.
(07:30):
So, what would you say to awriter in that scenario?
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
So, think about fourth wing.
The reason it works is yes, shewas gonna go to college, knew
that, absolutely, except thechange is she's not going to
become a scribe and work in alibrary and study her whole
life.
She's gonna go and ride dragons.
And so it's a complete shock tothe protagonist and what that
means (07:52):
stress, conflict, they don't know how to deal with it,
they've got to figure it out,they're resisting it, all of the
good stuff.
And it also gives us empathy forthe character, like, oh, that's
hard, right?
You want to see how are theygonna handle this, this new
thing, not I've studied myentire life for my math degree
and I'm going to my mathcollege.
(08:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:15):
Because one is definitely more exciting than
the other.
And so I think that's a key partis having it be unexpected and
also, you know, what you said iskey.
There we're getting us intoconflict, we're getting us into
the interesting part.
So for listeners, we'll justkeep that in mind.
Um, the other thing I hearpeople ask is like, why does it
happen in the 10 to 15% orbefore that mark?
(08:35):
And you explain that like we'rewe're building up to something.
Uh so I think that's great.
And then it's kind of like wesee, well, what happens after
this, right?
So this thing has shaken up ourworld, and then where are we
headed?
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
Right.
So then we get to plot pointone.
So when you're looking at yourstory as a writer, the the best
thing you can do for yourselfearly on, and this is just for
you, nobody ever has to read it.
Who's the protagonist?
Who's this story about?
What's their goal?
So a murder mystery is to solvethe murder.
So high-level goal, what's theirgoal?
And what's at stake if theydon't?
(09:07):
So the murderer goes free, theykill somebody else, there's
something bad is going tohappen.
And so then you know exactlywhat plot point one is.
It is just the protagonistaccepting the story goal.
The detective takes on the case.
One of the romance writers,romance writers, one of the love
interests in a romance book isgoing to be attracted to the
(09:31):
other person.
If neither are attracted, theyjust leave the story.
But one of them, sometimes both,will be attracted.
Fantasy, usually at this point,the protagonist is accepting
that the supernatural exists intheir world and they're going to
use it to achieve their storygoal.
So it has a little twist too.
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Yeah.
And I love how you're sayingthey're flavored per genre.
Because I think a lot of peopleget overwhelmed with all the
different threads they'll havein their story.
So this is something I seesometimes where I'll be editing
a draft and the incitingincident might be like the
lovers meet.
And then by the first plotpoint, it's like we're
committing to solving the crime.
And it's like, okay, but wait,what kind of story are we
reading?
So I like that you're sayingeverything's flavored per genre,
(10:11):
and you can really just start tosay logically, X happened, now Y
needs to happen.
And it can be that simple.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Yes.
And so there's plot point one.
And so that happens around 25%.
So that's the end of your actone.
And now we're moving into theprotagonist gonna try and
achieve this story goal in areactive way.
Something's gonna happen andthey're gonna, oh, I better do
this, or oh, I better do that.
And of course they're gonnafail.
They'll have little successeshere and there, and then they're
(10:38):
gonna fail.
You know, they're not gonnaachieve their story goal because
as soon as they do, the story'sover.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Right.
And can we talk about how likesomeone's internal obstacle or
that wound or fear is playinginto all of these plot points?
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
So in the internal wound, it's there and for a very
specific reason.
So you've got your littleskeleton blurb that the
protagonist must do something orsomething bad will happen.
Their internal wound is gonnamake it hard for them to achieve
their story goal.
So I want to be a megastarsinger, except I have a fear of
(11:13):
crowds.
Okay.
My internal thing is gonna be aproblem for that.
That's a very extreme example.
But you want you want theinternal goals to be there.
And so when the incitingincident happens, yeah, if we
look at Fourth Wing, where youknow Violet's been told she has
to uh go to that dragon school,she really doesn't want to hurt
(11:35):
anybody ever.
She's gotta overcome that.
She has to learn to trustpeople, or she can't succeed by
herself.
It just won't work.
And you can see these thingsplay out stronger and stronger.
So there's a hint of it early inthe book.
It comes out a bit in plot pointone.
By the middle point, there's abig decision she has to make
(11:55):
where she has to trust someonethat might actually want to kill
her.
Right.
Right.
Pretty scary stuff, addingtension and conflict.
But the internal flaw gets inthe way the whole way through.
And then hopefully, somewherebetween plot point two and the
resolution, you got a big rangehere.
The protagonist understands whattheir flaw is and what they're
(12:16):
really trying to do and achieve.
And it comes at the end.
And then it's very satisfying tothe reader.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
Very satisfying, yes.
And so I want to touch on thatbecause we're about to talk
about the middle plot point orthe midpoint.
And I know that this is wherethings start to kind of change
with that wound sometimes.
So talk us through the midpointand how that uh relates to our
internal obstacle.
Yeah.
So the midpoint is veryinteresting.
SPEAKER_01 (12:37):
People always uh not uh always often have trouble
with it.
So it's 50% of your book, giveor take, in that range
somewhere.
And between plot point one,where they've accepted the story
goal, and by the way, if that'smissing, they haven't accepted
the story goal.
There's no story.
They're not doing anything.
They're still now we're back inordinary life.
Something happened to shake themup and they went, I'm not gonna
(13:00):
deal with that.
Right.
They have to accept the storygoals.
So that's why plot point onemust must be in the story, or
there just isn't a story.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
And I have a feeling about that because sometimes
writers will say, or they'lllook at things like Harry
Potter, for example, and they'llsay, Well, he just goes to
school.
His goal is like not to go upagainst Voldemort and destroy
the sorcerer's stone orsomething like that.
So sometimes, like, I don't knowif you've found this as well,
but sometimes it's almost likeyou know that their actions are
(13:28):
accepting the goal.
I'm using air quotes.
Yes, and they don't quite knowthat their actions are quote
unquote accepting the goal.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
Yes, and that's such a key point, right?
The protagonist doesn't have toknow it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
Doesn't have to know it.
In Hunger Games, when Katnissaccepts the series story goal,
she doesn't know it.
It's at the end of book one,spoiler alert, where her and
PETA have survived and they goagainst the capital and and
decide, well, if we have to killeach other, we're not, we're
both gonna die.
And so at that moment, the wholeaudience is what is watching.
(14:02):
She's gonna become the leader ofthe revolution, she's gonna take
down the capital.
She doesn't know that she'saccepted that serious goal that
by the end of book three, thatcapital is done.
Right.
So it's it's beautifullywritten.
If you want to see an example ofthat, go to the end of Hunger
Games and you'll see how she'saccepted the story goal without
knowing it.
But I'm gonna guess the authorknew exactly, exactly what worth
(14:26):
doing there.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
I would guess so too.
And that's what I always tellwriters.
It's like if you if it's notimmediately obvious, like let's
say at plot point one thatthey're accepting the goal, you
need to be able to defend thatyes, they are.
They just don't consciously knowit as well as other
protagonists' might.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
And the goal is an interesting thing.
If we talk about going acrossthe book before the inciting
incident, the goal can be, youknow, I have to get to the
restaurant to open myrestaurant.
SPEAKER_00 (14:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
I got you know, you have to be doing something
active.
It does the scene goal doesn'tneed to be I have to solve the
murder because they don't knowthe murder exists yet.
But it has to be, you know,maybe the murder happens at the
restaurant, and that's the linkbetween the scene goals.
And so as you go through thestory, the scene goals are going
to change and be appropriate tothe place in the story.
(15:12):
But the overall story goal issolve the murder, have a happily
ever after, defeat the dragon.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
Right.
And it I think it gets sharperand sharper too as they find out
more information, as the stakesbecome more personal and things
like that.
So that's another thing peoplealways ask is like, well, can
that goal change?
And it's like, yes and no,right?
Like, yes, the goal for you, theauthor, is to bring your couple
together if you're writing aromance.
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
The goal for you, the author, is to get your
protagonist against theantagonist if you're writing
something like a fantasy storyor whatever.
Um, but their goal, like yousaid, might literally be open
the restaurant.
And then it's like, you know,two chapters later, there's a
different goal, and we're bringbeing brought into this
overarching story goal.
Like, what would you say?
I guess, let me give you ascenario.
In a romance novel, thecharacters they meet at the
(15:59):
inciting incident, what wouldtheir goals look like coming out
of that?
Like to get them to the pointwhere their their goal is to get
together.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Okay.
So it's very so it depends onthe romance and the internal
goal.
Or sorry, the internal flaw.
So if you have a character thatis very um, they're not
confident, they don't thinkanyone could possibly love them
for who they are.
They might meet in the incitinginstant and think, wow, you are
fabulous, but oh, I'm at so I Ijust out of my league.
(16:31):
I go, I have to get out of herebefore this hurts me more.
I'm gonna run, right?
Or their goal might be, no,wait, man, get out of my way.
This person's for me.
I'm going that direction.
So the the the goal is often atthat point determined by what's
their internal flaw and what'stheir natural inclination going
to be based on that flaw.
(16:53):
Or maybe they have a reallystrong personality trait.
And so I'll go back to FourthWing where Violet has worked
hard her whole life and studiedhard and learned and learned and
learned.
And so her natural inclinationis okay, she's she's accepting
the story goal, but she's doingit in a way that she has to use
(17:14):
her intelligence to achievethis.
So she uses a character trait tohelp herself in her goal
attempts, and that brings herthrough.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
So that flaw is really important, or a strong
character trait that's gonnawhich is why doing character
work before we get to the plotis so important, I think.
Um, but what you said brings usnicely back to kind of the
middle of the story becauseusing Violet as an example,
she's kind of going about thingsthe quote unquote wrong way.
She's using her strong trait ofintelligence matters.
(17:46):
I can find this in a book.
I'm just gonna study and work myway through the writer's
quadrant.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
And then something happens, which is the midpoint.
SPEAKER_01 (17:55):
Right.
So she, if we look at um theinciting incidents before the
story starts, her plot point oneis when she she's in the school
now.
There's her main love interest,Zaiden, who she thinks just
wants to kill her, and it's whenshe first sees the dragons.
And she watches what'shappening, and the dragons kill
(18:15):
a whole bunch of cadets.
So there's a lot of death inthis book, right?
It's a right, kind of a darkerfantasy.
A lot of yeah.
In her plot point one, she makesa decision.
All right, um, and her goal inher personal goal in plot or
book one is just to survive.
That's it, right?
She she wants to like not die inher first year of cadet school.
That's a pretty good goal.
Very motivational, yeah, veryrelatable.
(18:38):
And so she uses her intelligencein plot point one to watch
what's happening and decides,all right, when this dragon
comes to breathe on me, I'm notmoving.
And she's like the size of itsnose, right?
There it goes.
And she holds.
She doesn't die.
So, okay, so that's her firsthint.
But right after that, she'slike, oh, look how many people
(18:58):
died today.
Of course I'm gonna die today.
She doesn't believe it yet, butit's it's there.
In the middle plot point, she'salmost killed by other other
cadets who want her place, andso again, she figures out how is
she going to proactively nowtake charge.
So prior to the middle plotpoint, something has happened
(19:20):
and she's like, React, react,react.
At the middle plot point, shedecides she's gonna trust Satan
with a very, very importantsecret of one of her dragons.
So that's different for her.
And so now going forward in thestory, she has a fundamental
relationship change, which oftenhappens in the middle plot
point.
Gigi has trusted someone whocould be risky to trust.
(19:44):
She has chosen sides between herchildhood friend and Zaydan.
So she's made a big decisionthere where she's gonna go.
And now she starts makingdecisions on how to drive the
story forward that she'sactually gonna survive this
year.
And so her actions change goingforward now from how she was
(20:05):
behaving before.
And that's kind of the shift.
SPEAKER_00 (20:08):
Right.
And so that based on that, whatlisteners have heard you say,
that takes her from beingreactive or more like, I'm just
gonna kind of throw whatever Ihave at this problem to now I'm
gonna be more strategic, I'mtrusting, I'm open, I have more
knowledge and all that funstuff.
Um, so other than that, how doesthat relate to like this inner
obstacle at the midpoint?
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
So at the midpoint, so the character doesn't quite
know yet.
They don't understand what theirflaw is.
And at this point, at themidpoint, Violet still doesn't
understand that she has todepend on other people.
And so she just wants to dostuff her own.
I've got to protect this person,I've got to protect, I you know,
I'm gonna do this on my owninstead of looking for help.
And until she works as a team,she's gonna fail.
(20:51):
So her main internal flaw goingthrough is that lack of trust,
which there's a little shift atthe midpoint, and actually
working, collaborating, andrelying on other people.
And until she does that, whichof course she does in the
climax.
Yeah, she can't move forward.
SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
Love it.
Okay, so that's the midpoint.
And why do you think some peoplehave so much trouble like
getting to this midpoint andthen going past the midpoint?
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
I think partly when you look at it is all of Act
Two, it's big.
If your novel's 80,000 words,it's 40,000 words of your novel.
That's a lot of words.
So it's really big.
And it's very hard to findplaces where it's clearly
defined what you're doing atthat part of your book.
And so when you're looking atthe middle plot point, you break
(21:38):
it even more.
So the middle plot point is thescene where they go from
reactive to proactive.
So the scene before that, youyou can show their character
motivation leading up to it, andthe scene after it, you show
their reaction.
So now that gives you a coupleof more scenes to spread out,
you know, it clusters around astory arc scene, and you can
start putting stuff in.
(21:59):
And so instead of trying towrite the whole way through, if
you know just your five scenesthat you know in the inciting
instant their life is is shakenup.
So you're writing a romance, thecharacters meet.
You know that.
That's your scene.
Plot point one, one of themaccepts the attraction, that's
your scene.
And you go through the book thatway, which is very high-level
(22:19):
view.
So I'm not saying you have tooutline the whole thing, but
just a concept of what thesescenes are.
And then if you look at a storyarc scene and say, okay, the
scene before is where we seetheir motivation, and the scene
be after is where we see theirreaction, which means, oh,
character growth right there.
You can see where to placethings and put high-level events
(22:41):
of, okay, well, you know, if allall of the people I go to school
would try and kill me, everyreaction to that.
Like the reaction, you can't belike, oh, that was a nice day.
I'll go on.
That was just a Saturday spot,right?
You're going to change in someway because of a dramatic event.
And that's where the scene aftercomes in.
And then you can start doingbits and pieces instead of
(23:03):
starting at page one and going,I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Yeah.
I think a lot of writersdiscount that too because for
readers, that reaction and thatlike, I'm seeing the world in a
new way, even if it's not everyfacet of the world, but you
know, is really interesting toreaders.
I love reading that part.
Yeah.
So I think sometimes we discountit because we're like, well, we
know, we know, it's boring tous, but it's, you know, for
readers, that stuff's gold.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
That's what you want, right?
You want to you want toexperience the whole thing of
what that character's feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
Yeah.
That's the power of a novel,right?
To be in someone's head.
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Yes.
And so the trick is if there'sno middle plot point, so if you
think about somebody who's justreacting all over the place,
they're up going.
I'm over here, I'm over here,I'm over here.
I have no plan.
And until they start to beproactive, so they're active,
right?
Yeah.
Reactive.
They're not doing nothing,they're busy, but reacting.
(23:56):
After the middle plot point,they start to focus.
They're going to make all kindsof mistakes, but they have a
plan, sort of, right?
They have an idea, could betotally wrong, but they are now
driving the story.
And until they do that, youcan't bring the story to a close
because the character will beall over the place.
It doesn't right.
It they need to come to a pointwhere they grow enough that they
can now close the story off.
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
Right, which brings us to the end of act two.
Well, talk about this, becausethis is typically that all is
lost, like, you know,everything's crashing down, and
then we're going into theclimax.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
So here's the really interesting thing about plot
point two.
Everybody talks about the all islost moment, but it's also
something else.
And this can come a little bitbefore plot point two, in plot
point two, a little bit after,but it's right in that cluster
somewhere.
And this is what I mean by holdthings loosely.
Don't try and be it's exactlythis plan.
(24:48):
It's not, it's just theguidelines where you're gonna
meld it to your story.
And the second thing about it isthey get their final piece of
information that they need, orfinal piece of knowledge about
themselves that they need.
So fantasy, it could be oh, likethat, I wield lightning.
Right.
That's an interesting piece ofinformation.
(25:10):
And her internal, she actuallykills somebody, which she didn't
think she could do, and ofcourse she does a little bit by
accident with her lightning, butshe does.
And that that brings her to herlowest, lowest point of she's
tried this whole novel not tokill anybody and still stay
alive.
She finally kills somebody, andshe learns her signet is
(25:31):
lightning, and that's what sheneeds to solve the climax.
If they don't get that finalpiece of information, they can
never solve the climax.
They can't, they can't do it.
They need information.
There will always be a finalpiece of information.
If you drop it too late, itlooks like an author trick too
convenient.
(25:52):
So I'll put it like right beforethe climax.
Oh, look, here's your magicwand.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
I can win.
Yeah.
I love that.
Right.
So they need to.
Yeah, and I I love what you'resaying about cluster scenes too,
because something I see writersstruggle with is they're like, I
get a midpoint scene or I get anall is lost scene, and they just
think they have to cram stuffinto one scene.
And it's like nothing in yourstory is that isolated.
So you do have thesebefore-after kind of I like to
(26:17):
think about it as like a ripple,you know, that happens and you
ripple out both ways.
SPEAKER_01 (26:21):
And so that's a really interesting point because
what we're talking about is thefunctions that should be in your
story.
You as the artist get to decidewhere you're putting them.
There's general areas and thingsthat go together, but you can
decide (26:35):
is this one scene?
Is it five scenes?
Is it two chapters?
Like whatever it is for thestyle of book you're writing,
you as the writer get to decidethat.
What you're looking for is arethese functions in there
generally in the right place?
Awesome.
Off you go.
Yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
And they're not just rules for the sake of rules,
right?
They're they're very specificguidelines that help us create
the result we want.
And if you want to writecommercial fiction, then you,
you know, mostly want to adhereto the the guidelines and of
course still take it with, youknow, a grain of salt and do
what's best for your story, butthey are there for a reason.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Yeah.
And you know, if you understandthem, then when you don't do
them, you know why.
And you'll know what works foryour story because your story is
going to be you as anindividual, and there might be
something in it that that justdoesn't work.
Right.
At least you understand why andyou can compensate for it so
that there is enough tension inthe story at the right moments
(27:29):
to keep the reason.
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
Right.
I think that reason why orknowing why is so important too,
because like you were saying,your midpoint could be one
scene, two scenes, three scenes,whatever.
And as long as it works andyou're not just like cramming in
a bunch of information or, youknow, doing the things that are
not recommended to do, as longas you have a good reason why,
most people are not going tocomplain.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
No.
And if you look at Game ofThrones, the midpoint there,
three chapters.
I can't remember the exactorder, but Tyrion Lannister, Jon
Snow, and Ned Stark all have apoint of view and they're all
part of the they're all part ofthe middle middle plot point
where the humans get proactiveagainst the White Walkers in a
kind of hidden way becausethey're not a they're not big in
(28:09):
the scene at that point.
Exactly at that point, but it'sthree characters, three three
chapters.
Yeah.
So talk to us about the climax.
So the climax, this is somethingI've I learned as an editor.
Many writers can write a reallyexciting climax scene.
Like you're reading and think,that is fantastic.
It has nothing to do with thestory.
Right.
So, for example, if if we'reliving in a society of vampires,
(28:35):
and this is a made-up story, andum you can get a vaccination
against vampires, but only untilyou're five years old.
And it's really expensive.
So there's the there's thedrama.
If the scene at the end is agreat big battle with vampires,
great.
What happened to the protagonistin trying to get this
vaccination?
This it has to answer did she ordidn't she get her vaccination?
(28:59):
Is she or isn't she a vampire?
Right.
Has to answer that.
And so the biggest struggle withclimax scenes is remembering,
and again, we get back to what'syour story about?
Your protagonist must accomplishsomething.
Either they do or they don't,and it's clear in the climax
scene.
And once that happens, the storyis over.
Yeah.
Done.
Right.
And then you have a resolutionand you're closing a mission,
(29:20):
the stuff that comes after it.
And typically that's for showingwho is the character now.
How did it change them?
And what's their new world?
And if you're writing a series,what's coming next in the in the
series?
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
Yeah.
And I agree.
It's so funny that you said thatabout kind of you're writing a
climax that answers somethingtotally different than the main
story question.
I see that happen all the time.
It's like, um, it'll start outas what seems like a romance,
and then by the end, we'reconfronting the guy that killed
somebody, and you're like, Howdid we get here?
So sometimes writers willrealize this has happened, and
(29:53):
then they'll say, Well, I likethis, the climax, and and I
don't want to change the climax.
And it's like, okay, cool.
You can do whatever you want.
It's your story.
Just make sure that thebeginning matches the end, or
vice versa.
Yes, you have to go back andwrite beginning part.
And your story blurb.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
You gotta write the book description to match that.
Yeah.
That is a story.
And it can happen where youwrite your story and you think,
nope, it's actually this.
Right.
A lot of work.
Which is why, if ahead of timeyou know what your five story
arc scenes are, in a very highlevel, you can keep focused.
And then that saves a ton oftime of getting to a climax and
going, no, that's not my story.
SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:30):
Rewrite.
SPEAKER_00 (30:31):
And even you kind of hinted at this earlier, but even
for someone who's a pantser,just kind of thinking through
it.
You don't have to do anyplanning or any, you know,
anything that you feel like isgoing to cage you in, but just
thinking through it and thinkingthese are the options I could
play with or whatever.
And the knowledge of these storyarc scenes will inform your
draft as well.
Yeah.
I think it's valuable foranybody, no matter who you
(30:52):
identify as.
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
You know, the thing about if I'm going to give you
two things, like the mostimportant things to do when
you're writing a story to yourpantster, that's great.
If you know who's yourprotagonist, what's their goal,
and what's at stake if theydon't achieve that goal.
And you know what your climaxscene is.
Every scene you write, you canask yourself, does it help or
(31:13):
hinder the protagonist inachieving that goal?
Every scene.
And then you know it belongs inyour book.
It gives you a ton of ideas,like we're doing goal attempts.
Wait, I just did one where theysucceeded.
So I better do one where theyfail.
So I keep the tension going.
And you can look at every sceneyou're writing and figure out,
okay, that does this make sensein the context of my story, or
do I have to adapt it just alittle bit?
(31:34):
So now it's helping or hinderingthem to get that goal.
Right.
And then you don't write allover the place and spend hours
and hours writing stuff thataren't going to be in your book.
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
I love that idea.
And and it goes back to kind ofwhat I talk about all the time
is these are all tools to helpus do what we want to do.
So you can pick them up, putthem down whenever you want or
whenever you need them.
And sounds like you're sayingthe same thing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:54):
Yeah.
And and you know, flexibility isjust a little bit of knowledge
and the flexibility, you write abetter story.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
Yeah.
And being open to maybe goingdown some rabbit holes too and
getting things wrong sometimes,you know?
The more we cross off our listof this doesn't belong in our
story, the closer we get to whatdoes.
SPEAKER_01 (32:09):
Yes.
So it's hard to do.
I mean, none of us.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
I know.
I'm a rec I say I'm a recoveringperfectionist.
It's very hard to do.
But you know, I think once youpractice with that kind of stuff
too, it does get a lot easier.
But okay, so let's talk about.
I have two or three things Iwant to ask you about.
So one is like if I'm a writerand I'm stuck in my draft, how
often do you think I would bestuck because I'm not nailing
one of these key scenes?
(32:33):
Or probably because I don't havea goal.
Like, talk to me about what youwould do if you were stuck.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
So if you're stuck, I like to say, and I know I'm
repeating this, but you go backto what's your story about?
And where are you in the story?
So if you know, for example,you're somewhere between the
middle plot point and plot pointtwo, between those scenes,
there's external pressures thateither help or hinder the
(32:58):
protagonist in achieving theirstory goal.
And you start thinking aboutwhat could those external
pressures be?
Well, I'm in a romance and we'vejust gotten past this middle
plot point, and things lookfantastic.
And oh, my love interest ex justarrived back on the scene.
And oh, by the way, they weremarried for eight years and have
three children and two dogs, andyou know, right.
(33:21):
Yeah.
Or they get erroneousinformation that their their
love interest is cheating onthem.
And so they go, gotta end thisrelationship, and that's all
over.
And so you look at where you arein the story and then think
about well, what three externalpressures could I put?
And different ones, it can't bethree times their ek comes back.
unknown (33:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
It could even be a little crazy.
Their ek comes back, and thenthey get they get offered the
job with their dreams, but oops,in a different country.
And then, you know, whatever itis, but you start brainstorming
about what can I put in theirway, that's an external that
they have to decide what they'regonna do about it.
And so it starts to give youideas uh of what to do.
(34:04):
The other thing I I I like to dois I start working on a
different section.
So if I'm stuck at one point, Iand I do all my story arc scenes
first, and then I do the leadups and the and the reaction
scenes, and then I do thefill-in and I I just stop.
Okay, I'm stuck here, I'm gonnago over here now.
Instead of external pressures,I'm gonna work somewhere on
goals.
Let's do some goal attempts.
(34:25):
Let's do that and I change justto open up my brain.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Yeah.
Kind of like shake your brainloose and get some new ideas
going.
SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
I love that.
So it's it's kind of if I'mhearing you right, it's like
look at the big picture, thinkabout what your story is really
about, look at those uh storyarc scenes, and then kind of
think logically from yourcharacter's perspective, like
what are some things that theywould do, and or what are some
things you could throw in theirway.
And usually some combination ofthat will get you unstuck.
SPEAKER_01 (34:51):
And you know, the other thing too is if you look
at uh if you're writing afantasy and you have a romance
subplot, stop working on themain plot and go work on the
subplot a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (35:01):
That's a great idea.
SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
Maybe the muse is they're living over in the
subplot, they're not living overhere today, they're over there.
I'll go over there and findthem.
And so you can start looking at,well, how am I gonna put my
subplot in and what makes sensefor my for my subplot and which
which plot points have to happenbefore the others?
And when you're looking at, ifyou combined, say a romance and
a fantasy, which is verypopular, right?
(35:24):
Both the romance and the fantasyin that book are gonna have an
inciting incident.
And so you you look at, well, ifwe look at at the inciting
incident for Fourth Wing,happens before the story starts.
The inciting incident whereshe's going to go to dragon
college, the inciting incidentwith the dragons, well, that has
to happen after she's gone todragon college.
So of course the other one hasto come first.
(35:46):
And you can start thinking aboutokay, I've got this romance now.
Here's where they meet, here'swhere there's attraction, here's
where there's amisunderstanding, here's where
they break up, and here's wherethey get together.
SPEAKER_00 (35:56):
Where do those scenes fit and go write those?
Right.
And then you can probably seeall these avenues of how they'll
play together.
Yeah.
So I love that idea too.
And something that I tellwriters is when you're stuck, if
you're in the big pictureoutlining, you can zoom into a
scene and or vice versa.
So just kind of switch yourlens, and that usually will
help.
That's a great idea.
Let's go back to this idea of uhmulti-point of view because you
(36:18):
said Game of Thrones.
I know people are going to bewondering how do we do this if
we're writing a multi-point ofview?
Do if we have three point ofview characters, do we need
three sets of story arc scenes?
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
Right.
And the answer, of course, isno, you don't.
You can.
So if we look at, you know,books like Everyone Here is
Lying, or it's very popularright now in the mystery genre
to have a many points of viewcharacters.
So you got your suspects andyour detective or your amateur
sleuth or whatever.
Fantasy also, depending on thetype of fantasy, can be single
(36:51):
protagonist or multiple pointsof view, different things,
right?
So when you're looking at, let'ssee if I can think of a good
example of there's so manysingle point of view novels.
So if we look at Game ofThrones, we'll stick with that
because that's it's famous andit and it has lots.
They basically have a group, thehumans, who have to figure out
(37:12):
how they're going to use thesupernatural to overtake the
White Walkers or they all die.
So that's one story arc.
Then there's individual storyarcs for some of the characters,
but not all of them.
One of their point of viewcharacters has one scene.
He's the poor guy who dies inscene one.
Oops.
Right.
The characters that do, somewill have a full story arc all
(37:32):
the way through.
Some will just have pieces of astory arc.
In a series, some of their storyarc will go over the series,
some will end in book one.
So you have a lot of artisticchoice on how you're going to
bring the two together.
In a romance, quite often, therewill be a full romance story
arc, and then there'll be apartial external.
(37:53):
So the one character's externalgoal might be, you know, I'm I
have to sell my restaurant.
And so, but that is onlyvaluable until they have close
proximity.
So lots of times in a romance,you need close proximity.
There's a reason the two romancelove interests need to be forced
together.
(38:14):
But once that's done, that storyarc is over.
Done over.
And that could end up plot pointone really early.
So there's so much flexibilitythere.
Maybe you just have the incitingincident and a climax.
Often, if it's a secondary one,there won't be a plot point two
because there can only be onelowest of the low.
Right.
And so there is no plot pointtwo for that particular story
(38:37):
arc.
So you need your main one andthen you start playing with the
other ones.
SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
Yeah.
I think it depends too if it'slike an ensemble cast that's all
together, like in Six of Crowsor something versus Game of
Thrones, where they're allspread out, you know, because if
you're writing a story like Gameof Thrones, you might have each
person does have a true storyarc as well as the overarching
story arc.
Where in Six of Crows, you mighthave the group has a story arc,
you know.
SPEAKER_01 (39:00):
Yeah, it's exactly the point, right?
So anybody in that group can bethe can be the point of view for
the story arc scenes.
Usually the protagonist is thepoint of view for the story arc
scenes.
That's what the reader wants tosee, right?
The big events are happening,they better be part of it.
But it can be anybody in thatensemble.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Yeah, love it.
Okay, and so a couple lastquestions.
If you were in the editing phaseand you're looking at your full
draft, do you recommend kind ofstarting with the lens of these
five story arc scenes to kind ofjust say, does this work in
general?
Yeah.
And I call that the story test.
SPEAKER_01 (39:33):
Do you have a story?
And so when you look at it andyou go through and you pull out
a single sentence for every youdo your after draft outline,
where are your five scenes?
Are they in the right place?
Are they doing what they'resupposed to be doing?
Well, and do you have all five?
SPEAKER_02 (39:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Right.
And that is your very firstthing because if that's not
there, you don't have a storyyet.
So don't bother editing anythingelse.
If there's no plot point two,you have to go write it and put
it in.
Then you can edit the rest ofthe stories.
It, you know, or say, forexample, your inciting incident
doesn't happen until 40% intothe story.
You gotta look at what's youhave to get it restructured so
(40:11):
it's in the right place andyeah, forward.
And then and then you know youhave a story.
And then it's worth editing downat the detail level.
SPEAKER_00 (40:18):
Yeah.
And sometimes I see people likein that example you said of do
you even have a climax scene?
And if you don't, you need tofigure that out.
Some people I've seen, they'llthey'll be like, Well, oh, it's
hard.
I'll figure it out later.
And then they go and they editlike act one to the detail, and
it's like, well, you don'treally know what details are
going to be relevant or that youneed to set up because you don't
know what your climax lookslike.
(40:39):
Exactly.
So sometimes we have I do thistoo.
We avoid something because itfeels hard.
It's hard.
And it's hard.
But it's like your job is beingmade so much more hard by not
doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (40:49):
It is, and you know, you look at the climax scene
where you have a special object.
Should be in the beginning, too,right?
Right.
So my advice when people areediting, don't touch scene one
until you did the rest.
Just leave it alone.
You've got it.
It might not even be where youend up starting, but just leave
it alone.
Often a writer will get hung up.
Perfect, perfect, perfect,perfect, perfect.
Get to the end and go, I don'teven need that scene.
(41:10):
So to keep going when you'rerevising, leave it alone.
Like you've got a scene.
Great.
People start somewhere.
Get to the end.
And you go back and you're like,whoa, what I really need, it
should start in scene three.
And I need to put this object inbecause here it is, and I want a
mirror, so it feels reallyclosed.
And my des full circle.
So now I can go back and dothat.
SPEAKER_00 (41:30):
But you got to and it's funny you say that because
so many writers will be like,How do professional authors do
this?
They put the clues in, they makethe mirror scenes, and it's
like, you can do it too.
You just need to get to the endand know what your story's about
before you can put all thesecool things in.
You're never gonna know them ondraft one.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
No, and when you go back and uh murder in the Irish
village.
So it's a uh cozy mystery withan amateur sleuth.
And in the opening scene, youmeet like four of the suspects,
the murder weapon, theantagonist, the protagonist.
And when you read it and thenyou go back and you look at
every single thing in thatopening scene, you think, yep,
(42:06):
used, used, used, used, used.
Every clue is there.
Yeah.
I love that.
As a reader, you just read it.
It's like, oh, this is a goodscene.
But as a writer, she had to knowthat.
SPEAKER_00 (42:17):
Yeah.
I love that.
And personally, when I read abook, I always finish and I go
back and reread the firstchapter because I'm just a nerd
about can I see all the thingsthat she dropped that I didn't
know or whatever?
I think it's super fun.
But okay, so is there any likefinal piece of advice you would
give to writers who are feelingoverwhelmed by structure and who
want to make sure they'regetting all these things right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Bit by bit.
I had a boss who said inch byinch, life's this inch.
So when things get overwhelmingand too stressful, pick
something small and just do thatbecause you'll get there.
If you get overwhelmed, juststop.
That's very sad, right?
But if you just do littlepieces, you get one piece done,
great.
And if you're totallyfrustrated, walk away for a bit
and come back.
(42:57):
But do try and do smaller thingsinstead of looking at, wow, I
just sat down, I have 80,000words to write.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Write a scene that you'rereading to most people for the
record.
It's very intimidating.
And and I think, you know,anyone who's trying to write a
novel is a high achiever.
And anyone who has never writtena novel doesn't understand how
hard it is to write a novel andhow much work it takes, how much
(43:20):
thought it takes, how muchemotion it takes, all of these
things.
And so make it easier onyourself and pick smaller
segments instead of trying tomake it perfect.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
I love that advice.
Progress over perfection.
That's what I say.
Okay, so where can listenerslearn more about fictionary and
all the cool resources you have?
Sure.
SPEAKER_01 (43:40):
So we have uh the fictionary school for writers
and editors, and you can joinfor free.
It's fictionary.circle.so.
And we do a whole bunch of freeclasses.
We have trained editors who askanswer questions so you can ask
specifically about yourmanuscript.
We have a section of courses weteach where we don't record
them, so we can actually work onyour manuscript live, which is
(44:02):
really fun.
We do workshops where we'llgive, say, 15 minutes of theory,
and then we turn recording off,and then we just work on stuff
together.
So we're trying to provide anenvironment where it's
affordable, everybody hasaccess.
We, of course, have a paidportion of the school, but we
have a huge portion that's justfor anybody who wants to come in
and write their novel,basically.
SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
And be around like-minded people who are also
working on their novels.
I love that.
And so, speaking of the editorsyou have trained, you have a
free gift for everyone listeningthat involves them.
What is that?
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
Yes.
Okay, so it's a course that wehave.
It's called An Insider's View ofStory Editing.
And what we did, we had 13editors edit the same novel and
then studied how they did it,and then wrote what what worked,
what didn't work from aneditor's perspective on
basically the goal is to showwriters what you should expect
(44:54):
from a story editor.
And so we put in the good andthe bad throughout, showing all
of the different pieces and whyit's so important if you hire a
structural editor or storyeditor to find one that suits
you, because editors have theirown voice and you need to find
one that works for you and whatthey're looking for and kind of
know your weaknesses when youhave have an editor that I
(45:18):
particularly repeat.
I need an editor who's gonna payattention to that and go,
k'chunk, nope.
You already said stop thinking,right?
So, you know, you get carriedaway, you write that sentence,
and then you write yourdifferent way.
So it's the course is designedto really give writers a view of
what editors do, and then youcan take that knowledge and
apply it to your own story.
Of course, you can.
SPEAKER_00 (45:38):
Yeah, I love that.
I love a good behind the scenes.
So not only do we get to see howeditors really work, but also
you can learn from the littlecourse as well.
So that's very cool.
We will link to how to accessthat in the show notes.
We'll link to fictionary andwhere you can find the resources
that Christina mentioned.
Thank you so much for being heretoday, Christina.
It was a joy to have you and tonerd out about structure.
SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
I know I love talking to you about structure.
It is so much fun.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
Thank you.
All right, so that's it for thisepisode of the Fiction Writing
Made Easy Podcast.
Head over to SavannahGilbo.comforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
(46:24):
specific writing stage, whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannaGilbo.com forward slashquiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help you getto your next big milestone.
Last but not least, make sure tofollow this podcast in your
(46:45):
podcast player of choice becauseI'll be back next week with
another episode full ofactionable tips, tools, and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
But if you want to write genre fiction, have a
commercially successful story,readers have come to expect
certain things.
And this has started thebeginning of the time.
The very first stories havethese.
And it has not changed.
There's all different ways wecan describe these things.
There's different words used,there's different levels of
depth, but the fundamentalstructure is there.
(00:23):
And so I think that all writersshould have the opportunity to
know what this is and then useit for their writing if they
choose to do so or they know itand then branch off from there
into something new and wonderfulthat becomes a new pattern.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
Podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo, andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable, and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:59):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, I have avery special guest joining me.
Her name is Christina Stanley,and she is an award-winning
author, fiction editor, and thefounder and CEO of Fictionary,
an incredible software designedto help creative writers improve
(01:20):
the plot, characters, andsettings of their novels.
And in this episode, Christinaand I are diving deep into the
five structural scenes that makeup the backbone of every great
story.
We're going to talk about whythese scenes are so important,
how they align with thethree-act structure, and how you
can use them to create a storythat's both compelling and
cohesive.
So whether you're in the middleof drafting knee deep in
(01:43):
revisions or just starting tooutline your novel, this episode
is packed with actionable tipsto help you move forward with
clarity and confidence.
So without further ado, let'sdive right into my conversation
with Christina Stanley.
Hi, Christina.
Welcome to the Fiction WritingMade Easy Podcast.
Hi, Sylvanna.
Thanks for hosting today.
Super excited to be here to talkabout story structure, my
(02:04):
favorite, favorite, favoritetopic.
I'm excited too.
So, Christina, can you kick usoff by giving a little
introduction of who you are andwhat you do?
SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
Sure.
Yeah.
So I'm a fiction writer.
I'm a instructional editor.
I run a company calledFictionary.
We have the Fictionary Schoolfor Writers and Editors.
And our goal is basically tohelp writers tell a great story.
That's it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
Yeah.
And you guys have a lot of greatprograms and freebies and all
that kind of stuff.
So we will link to all that inthe show notes.
But what draws you to storystructure or like why is this
the thing you're so nerdy about?
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
So, okay, so obviously I love to read.
I've grown up reading.
It's a thing, I'm sure it iswith most writers.
You love to read.
And I got interested in storystructure when I started really
thinking about how to put a booktogether.
And when I was writing before Iwas editing, before fictionary
as a company, and I likepatterns.
And when you start to seepatterns in a story, you're
(02:59):
like, oh, that's in this story.
Well, that's in this story.
Well, that's in this story andin the same location.
Huh.
What is that about?
And so it's just mind-candy oflike to see it.
And once you see it, you can'tunsee it.
Like it's just there.
And every book you read, you'relike, oh, there's this.
There's this.
And you start to see thedifferent genres have different
patterns.
(03:19):
You know, even between a mysteryand a thriller, the patterns are
different.
It's and so I don't know.
I just find it very exciting,interesting.
I I have a my my background, Ihave a degree in in um computer
mathematics.
So I I like, I just likestructure.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
Yeah.
I love that you said mind candybecause that's exactly how it
feels to me.
I also love the patterns.
I love seeing like the whybehind the patterns and figuring
that out.
And then also being able toshare it with other people,
which is kind of what we both dofor a living.
So yes, I think that's supercool.
But what we're gonna talk aboutis like the five key scenes.
So these make up the spine orthe backbone of the story.
(03:57):
Why do we start here?
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
So I believe that you can write anything you want.
That's great.
But if you want to write genrefiction, have a commercially
successful story, readers havecome to expect certain things.
And this has started thebeginning of the time.
The very first stories havethese, and it has not changed.
There's all different ways wecan describe these things.
(04:21):
There's different words used,there's different levels of
depth, but the fundamentalstructure is there.
And so I think that all writersshould have the opportunity to
know what this is and then useit for their writing if they
choose to do so, or they know itand then branch off from there
into something new and wonderfulthat becomes a new pattern.
SPEAKER_00 (04:40):
Yeah.
So why don't you give us anoverview of the five scenes and
then we'll dive into each one ofthem a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
Okay, so I'll give people a chance to take notes.
So scene number one is theinciting incident.
And I'll talk through thedetails behind these at the end.
But so we have scene number one,the inciting incident.
Scene number two is plot pointone, scene number three is the
middle plot point, scene numberfour is plot point two, and the
climax is the fifth scene.
(05:07):
So we have five scenes.
Act one goes from your veryfirst page up to plot point one,
act two is the biggie, and itgoes from plot point one to plot
point two, which is basically50% of the story.
And then act three starts atplot point two and goes to the
very end of your book, your lastword.
And those boundaries are holdthem loosely.
(05:29):
Your your plot point two, itcould end act two or start act
three.
It doesn't matter where on thatline it sits, they're generally
just in those places.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
Yeah, but let's start with number one.
So that was the excitingincident.
I know that people are gonna belike, I'm taking notes.
Where does this thing happen?
Tell me all about it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
All right.
So the inciting incident, allthis is it's a shakeup to the
protagonist's world.
So something changes.
And so if we think of a romancenovel, it's when the characters
meet.
If they don't meet, there's noromance.
It's just when they meet.
That's it.
A mystery, either it's adetective accepting the case, or
(06:07):
they find a dead body, orsomebody's killed.
Somewhere in there, it has a bitmore variety than a romance.
And so what we're looking for issomething early in the novel.
It could happen before thenovel, even.
And it needs to happen no laterthan 10 to 15 percent.
And the reason for that is ifyou're reading about a
character's ordinary world,which we want, we want to know
(06:28):
who is this character before weget engaged.
If they don't do anythingdifferent for too long, it's
dull.
People go, well, what'shappening in this story?
There needs to be an incitingincident either before the story
starts.
Fourth Wing is a beautifulexample of that, where Violet,
who's the main character, hermother orders her to go from
(06:50):
working in a library to dragoncollege.
Boom.
And she has to do it.
And she has six months to getready.
So she's a little Miss BookReader.
You know, I'm gonna ridedragons.
That's her insight, her worldhas changed.
Before the book starts, it'stold in backstory, an early
backstory.
So, same rule early in the book.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (07:08):
And something where I see writers go wrong when they
create an inciting incident,there's a few things, but one of
them is it's something that'skind of expected.
So it's like they'll say, Well,my character's about to start
college.
Let's pretend it's dragoncollege, and they've known that
they're going to college in thefall.
And so then they say, Well, theinciting incident is day one of
college.
It's what kicks off the journey.
(07:30):
So, what would you say to awriter in that scenario?
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
So, think about fourth wing.
The reason it works is yes, shewas gonna go to college, knew
that, absolutely, except thechange is she's not going to
become a scribe and work in alibrary and study her whole
life.
She's gonna go and ride dragons.
And so it's a complete shock tothe protagonist and what that
means (07:52):
stress, conflict, they don't know how to deal with it,
they've got to figure it out,they're resisting it, all of the
good stuff.
And it also gives us empathy forthe character, like, oh, that's
hard, right?
You want to see how are theygonna handle this, this new
thing, not I've studied myentire life for my math degree
and I'm going to my mathcollege.
(08:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (08:15):
Because one is definitely more exciting than
the other.
And so I think that's a key partis having it be unexpected and
also, you know, what you said iskey.
There we're getting us intoconflict, we're getting us into
the interesting part.
So for listeners, we'll justkeep that in mind.
Um, the other thing I hearpeople ask is like, why does it
happen in the 10 to 15% orbefore that mark?
(08:35):
And you explain that like we'rewe're building up to something.
Uh so I think that's great.
And then it's kind of like wesee, well, what happens after
this, right?
So this thing has shaken up ourworld, and then where are we
headed?
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
Right.
So then we get to plot pointone.
So when you're looking at yourstory as a writer, the the best
thing you can do for yourselfearly on, and this is just for
you, nobody ever has to read it.
Who's the protagonist?
Who's this story about?
What's their goal?
So a murder mystery is to solvethe murder.
So high-level goal, what's theirgoal?
And what's at stake if theydon't?
(09:07):
So the murderer goes free, theykill somebody else, there's
something bad is going tohappen.
And so then you know exactlywhat plot point one is.
It is just the protagonistaccepting the story goal.
The detective takes on the case.
One of the romance writers,romance writers, one of the love
interests in a romance book isgoing to be attracted to the
(09:31):
other person.
If neither are attracted, theyjust leave the story.
But one of them, sometimes both,will be attracted.
Fantasy, usually at this point,the protagonist is accepting
that the supernatural exists intheir world and they're going to
use it to achieve their storygoal.
So it has a little twist too.
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Yeah.
And I love how you're sayingthey're flavored per genre.
Because I think a lot of peopleget overwhelmed with all the
different threads they'll havein their story.
So this is something I seesometimes where I'll be editing
a draft and the incitingincident might be like the
lovers meet.
And then by the first plotpoint, it's like we're
committing to solving the crime.
And it's like, okay, but wait,what kind of story are we
reading?
So I like that you're sayingeverything's flavored per genre,
(10:11):
and you can really just start tosay logically, X happened, now Y
needs to happen.
And it can be that simple.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Yes.
And so there's plot point one.
And so that happens around 25%.
So that's the end of your actone.
And now we're moving into theprotagonist gonna try and
achieve this story goal in areactive way.
Something's gonna happen andthey're gonna, oh, I better do
this, or oh, I better do that.
And of course they're gonnafail.
They'll have little successeshere and there, and then they're
(10:38):
gonna fail.
You know, they're not gonnaachieve their story goal because
as soon as they do, the story'sover.
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
Right.
And can we talk about how likesomeone's internal obstacle or
that wound or fear is playinginto all of these plot points?
SPEAKER_01 (10:51):
So in the internal wound, it's there and for a very
specific reason.
So you've got your littleskeleton blurb that the
protagonist must do something orsomething bad will happen.
Their internal wound is gonnamake it hard for them to achieve
their story goal.
So I want to be a megastarsinger, except I have a fear of
(11:13):
crowds.
Okay.
My internal thing is gonna be aproblem for that.
That's a very extreme example.
But you want you want theinternal goals to be there.
And so when the incitingincident happens, yeah, if we
look at Fourth Wing, where youknow Violet's been told she has
to uh go to that dragon school,she really doesn't want to hurt
(11:35):
anybody ever.
She's gotta overcome that.
She has to learn to trustpeople, or she can't succeed by
herself.
It just won't work.
And you can see these thingsplay out stronger and stronger.
So there's a hint of it early inthe book.
It comes out a bit in plot pointone.
By the middle point, there's abig decision she has to make
(11:55):
where she has to trust someonethat might actually want to kill
her.
Right.
Right.
Pretty scary stuff, addingtension and conflict.
But the internal flaw gets inthe way the whole way through.
And then hopefully, somewherebetween plot point two and the
resolution, you got a big rangehere.
The protagonist understands whattheir flaw is and what they're
(12:16):
really trying to do and achieve.
And it comes at the end.
And then it's very satisfying tothe reader.
SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
Very satisfying, yes.
And so I want to touch on thatbecause we're about to talk
about the middle plot point orthe midpoint.
And I know that this is wherethings start to kind of change
with that wound sometimes.
So talk us through the midpointand how that uh relates to our
internal obstacle.
Yeah.
So the midpoint is veryinteresting.
SPEAKER_01 (12:37):
People always uh not uh always often have trouble
with it.
So it's 50% of your book, giveor take, in that range
somewhere.
And between plot point one,where they've accepted the story
goal, and by the way, if that'smissing, they haven't accepted
the story goal.
There's no story.
They're not doing anything.
They're still now we're back inordinary life.
Something happened to shake themup and they went, I'm not gonna
(13:00):
deal with that.
Right.
They have to accept the storygoals.
So that's why plot point onemust must be in the story, or
there just isn't a story.
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
And I have a feeling about that because sometimes
writers will say, or they'lllook at things like Harry
Potter, for example, and they'llsay, Well, he just goes to
school.
His goal is like not to go upagainst Voldemort and destroy
the sorcerer's stone orsomething like that.
So sometimes, like, I don't knowif you've found this as well,
but sometimes it's almost likeyou know that their actions are
(13:28):
accepting the goal.
I'm using air quotes.
Yes, and they don't quite knowthat their actions are quote
unquote accepting the goal.
SPEAKER_01 (13:36):
Yes, and that's such a key point, right?
The protagonist doesn't have toknow it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
Doesn't have to know it.
In Hunger Games, when Katnissaccepts the series story goal,
she doesn't know it.
It's at the end of book one,spoiler alert, where her and
PETA have survived and they goagainst the capital and and
decide, well, if we have to killeach other, we're not, we're
both gonna die.
And so at that moment, the wholeaudience is what is watching.
(14:02):
She's gonna become the leader ofthe revolution, she's gonna take
down the capital.
She doesn't know that she'saccepted that serious goal that
by the end of book three, thatcapital is done.
Right.
So it's it's beautifullywritten.
If you want to see an example ofthat, go to the end of Hunger
Games and you'll see how she'saccepted the story goal without
knowing it.
But I'm gonna guess the authorknew exactly, exactly what worth
(14:26):
doing there.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
I would guess so too.
And that's what I always tellwriters.
It's like if you if it's notimmediately obvious, like let's
say at plot point one thatthey're accepting the goal, you
need to be able to defend thatyes, they are.
They just don't consciously knowit as well as other
protagonists' might.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (14:42):
And the goal is an interesting thing.
If we talk about going acrossthe book before the inciting
incident, the goal can be, youknow, I have to get to the
restaurant to open myrestaurant.
SPEAKER_00 (14:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
I got you know, you have to be doing something
active.
It does the scene goal doesn'tneed to be I have to solve the
murder because they don't knowthe murder exists yet.
But it has to be, you know,maybe the murder happens at the
restaurant, and that's the linkbetween the scene goals.
And so as you go through thestory, the scene goals are going
to change and be appropriate tothe place in the story.
(15:12):
But the overall story goal issolve the murder, have a happily
ever after, defeat the dragon.
SPEAKER_00 (15:19):
Right.
And it I think it gets sharperand sharper too as they find out
more information, as the stakesbecome more personal and things
like that.
So that's another thing peoplealways ask is like, well, can
that goal change?
And it's like, yes and no,right?
Like, yes, the goal for you, theauthor, is to bring your couple
together if you're writing aromance.
SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:37):
The goal for you, the author, is to get your
protagonist against theantagonist if you're writing
something like a fantasy storyor whatever.
Um, but their goal, like yousaid, might literally be open
the restaurant.
And then it's like, you know,two chapters later, there's a
different goal, and we're bringbeing brought into this
overarching story goal.
Like, what would you say?
I guess, let me give you ascenario.
In a romance novel, thecharacters they meet at the
(15:59):
inciting incident, what wouldtheir goals look like coming out
of that?
Like to get them to the pointwhere their their goal is to get
together.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Okay.
So it's very so it depends onthe romance and the internal
goal.
Or sorry, the internal flaw.
So if you have a character thatis very um, they're not
confident, they don't thinkanyone could possibly love them
for who they are.
They might meet in the incitinginstant and think, wow, you are
fabulous, but oh, I'm at so I Ijust out of my league.
(16:31):
I go, I have to get out of herebefore this hurts me more.
I'm gonna run, right?
Or their goal might be, no,wait, man, get out of my way.
This person's for me.
I'm going that direction.
So the the the goal is often atthat point determined by what's
their internal flaw and what'stheir natural inclination going
to be based on that flaw.
(16:53):
Or maybe they have a reallystrong personality trait.
And so I'll go back to FourthWing where Violet has worked
hard her whole life and studiedhard and learned and learned and
learned.
And so her natural inclinationis okay, she's she's accepting
the story goal, but she's doingit in a way that she has to use
(17:14):
her intelligence to achievethis.
So she uses a character trait tohelp herself in her goal
attempts, and that brings herthrough.
SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
So that flaw is really important, or a strong
character trait that's gonnawhich is why doing character
work before we get to the plotis so important, I think.
Um, but what you said brings usnicely back to kind of the
middle of the story becauseusing Violet as an example,
she's kind of going about thingsthe quote unquote wrong way.
She's using her strong trait ofintelligence matters.
(17:46):
I can find this in a book.
I'm just gonna study and work myway through the writer's
quadrant.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
And then something happens, which is the midpoint.
SPEAKER_01 (17:55):
Right.
So she, if we look at um theinciting incidents before the
story starts, her plot point oneis when she she's in the school
now.
There's her main love interest,Zaiden, who she thinks just
wants to kill her, and it's whenshe first sees the dragons.
And she watches what'shappening, and the dragons kill
(18:15):
a whole bunch of cadets.
So there's a lot of death inthis book, right?
It's a right, kind of a darkerfantasy.
A lot of yeah.
In her plot point one, she makesa decision.
All right, um, and her goal inher personal goal in plot or
book one is just to survive.
That's it, right?
She she wants to like not die inher first year of cadet school.
That's a pretty good goal.
Very motivational, yeah, veryrelatable.
(18:38):
And so she uses her intelligencein plot point one to watch
what's happening and decides,all right, when this dragon
comes to breathe on me, I'm notmoving.
And she's like the size of itsnose, right?
There it goes.
And she holds.
She doesn't die.
So, okay, so that's her firsthint.
But right after that, she'slike, oh, look how many people
(18:58):
died today.
Of course I'm gonna die today.
She doesn't believe it yet, butit's it's there.
In the middle plot point, she'salmost killed by other other
cadets who want her place, andso again, she figures out how is
she going to proactively nowtake charge.
So prior to the middle plotpoint, something has happened
(19:20):
and she's like, React, react,react.
At the middle plot point, shedecides she's gonna trust Satan
with a very, very importantsecret of one of her dragons.
So that's different for her.
And so now going forward in thestory, she has a fundamental
relationship change, which oftenhappens in the middle plot
point.
Gigi has trusted someone whocould be risky to trust.
(19:44):
She has chosen sides between herchildhood friend and Zaydan.
So she's made a big decisionthere where she's gonna go.
And now she starts makingdecisions on how to drive the
story forward that she'sactually gonna survive this
year.
And so her actions change goingforward now from how she was
(20:05):
behaving before.
And that's kind of the shift.
SPEAKER_00 (20:08):
Right.
And so that based on that, whatlisteners have heard you say,
that takes her from beingreactive or more like, I'm just
gonna kind of throw whatever Ihave at this problem to now I'm
gonna be more strategic, I'mtrusting, I'm open, I have more
knowledge and all that funstuff.
Um, so other than that, how doesthat relate to like this inner
obstacle at the midpoint?
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
So at the midpoint, so the character doesn't quite
know yet.
They don't understand what theirflaw is.
And at this point, at themidpoint, Violet still doesn't
understand that she has todepend on other people.
And so she just wants to dostuff her own.
I've got to protect this person,I've got to protect, I you know,
I'm gonna do this on my owninstead of looking for help.
And until she works as a team,she's gonna fail.
(20:51):
So her main internal flaw goingthrough is that lack of trust,
which there's a little shift atthe midpoint, and actually
working, collaborating, andrelying on other people.
And until she does that, whichof course she does in the
climax.
Yeah, she can't move forward.
SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
Love it.
Okay, so that's the midpoint.
And why do you think some peoplehave so much trouble like
getting to this midpoint andthen going past the midpoint?
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
I think partly when you look at it is all of Act
Two, it's big.
If your novel's 80,000 words,it's 40,000 words of your novel.
That's a lot of words.
So it's really big.
And it's very hard to findplaces where it's clearly
defined what you're doing atthat part of your book.
And so when you're looking atthe middle plot point, you break
(21:38):
it even more.
So the middle plot point is thescene where they go from
reactive to proactive.
So the scene before that, youyou can show their character
motivation leading up to it, andthe scene after it, you show
their reaction.
So now that gives you a coupleof more scenes to spread out,
you know, it clusters around astory arc scene, and you can
start putting stuff in.
(21:59):
And so instead of trying towrite the whole way through, if
you know just your five scenesthat you know in the inciting
instant their life is is shakenup.
So you're writing a romance, thecharacters meet.
You know that.
That's your scene.
Plot point one, one of themaccepts the attraction, that's
your scene.
And you go through the book thatway, which is very high-level
(22:19):
view.
So I'm not saying you have tooutline the whole thing, but
just a concept of what thesescenes are.
And then if you look at a storyarc scene and say, okay, the
scene before is where we seetheir motivation, and the scene
be after is where we see theirreaction, which means, oh,
character growth right there.
You can see where to placethings and put high-level events
(22:41):
of, okay, well, you know, if allall of the people I go to school
would try and kill me, everyreaction to that.
Like the reaction, you can't belike, oh, that was a nice day.
I'll go on.
That was just a Saturday spot,right?
You're going to change in someway because of a dramatic event.
And that's where the scene aftercomes in.
And then you can start doingbits and pieces instead of
(23:03):
starting at page one and going,I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Yeah.
I think a lot of writersdiscount that too because for
readers, that reaction and thatlike, I'm seeing the world in a
new way, even if it's not everyfacet of the world, but you
know, is really interesting toreaders.
I love reading that part.
Yeah.
So I think sometimes we discountit because we're like, well, we
know, we know, it's boring tous, but it's, you know, for
readers, that stuff's gold.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
That's what you want, right?
You want to you want toexperience the whole thing of
what that character's feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
Yeah.
That's the power of a novel,right?
To be in someone's head.
SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
Yes.
And so the trick is if there'sno middle plot point, so if you
think about somebody who's justreacting all over the place,
they're up going.
I'm over here, I'm over here,I'm over here.
I have no plan.
And until they start to beproactive, so they're active,
right?
Yeah.
Reactive.
They're not doing nothing,they're busy, but reacting.
(23:56):
After the middle plot point,they start to focus.
They're going to make all kindsof mistakes, but they have a
plan, sort of, right?
They have an idea, could betotally wrong, but they are now
driving the story.
And until they do that, youcan't bring the story to a close
because the character will beall over the place.
It doesn't right.
It they need to come to a pointwhere they grow enough that they
can now close the story off.
SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
Right, which brings us to the end of act two.
Well, talk about this, becausethis is typically that all is
lost, like, you know,everything's crashing down, and
then we're going into theclimax.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
So here's the really interesting thing about plot
point two.
Everybody talks about the all islost moment, but it's also
something else.
And this can come a little bitbefore plot point two, in plot
point two, a little bit after,but it's right in that cluster
somewhere.
And this is what I mean by holdthings loosely.
Don't try and be it's exactlythis plan.
(24:48):
It's not, it's just theguidelines where you're gonna
meld it to your story.
And the second thing about it isthey get their final piece of
information that they need, orfinal piece of knowledge about
themselves that they need.
So fantasy, it could be oh, likethat, I wield lightning.
Right.
That's an interesting piece ofinformation.
(25:10):
And her internal, she actuallykills somebody, which she didn't
think she could do, and ofcourse she does a little bit by
accident with her lightning, butshe does.
And that that brings her to herlowest, lowest point of she's
tried this whole novel not tokill anybody and still stay
alive.
She finally kills somebody, andshe learns her signet is
(25:31):
lightning, and that's what sheneeds to solve the climax.
If they don't get that finalpiece of information, they can
never solve the climax.
They can't, they can't do it.
They need information.
There will always be a finalpiece of information.
If you drop it too late, itlooks like an author trick too
convenient.
(25:52):
So I'll put it like right beforethe climax.
Oh, look, here's your magicwand.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
I can win.
Yeah.
I love that.
Right.
So they need to.
Yeah, and I I love what you'resaying about cluster scenes too,
because something I see writersstruggle with is they're like, I
get a midpoint scene or I get anall is lost scene, and they just
think they have to cram stuffinto one scene.
And it's like nothing in yourstory is that isolated.
So you do have thesebefore-after kind of I like to
(26:17):
think about it as like a ripple,you know, that happens and you
ripple out both ways.
SPEAKER_01 (26:21):
And so that's a really interesting point because
what we're talking about is thefunctions that should be in your
story.
You as the artist get to decidewhere you're putting them.
There's general areas and thingsthat go together, but you can
decide (26:35):
is this one scene?
Is it five scenes?
Is it two chapters?
Like whatever it is for thestyle of book you're writing,
you as the writer get to decidethat.
What you're looking for is arethese functions in there
generally in the right place?
Awesome.
Off you go.
Yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
And they're not just rules for the sake of rules,
right?
They're they're very specificguidelines that help us create
the result we want.
And if you want to writecommercial fiction, then you,
you know, mostly want to adhereto the the guidelines and of
course still take it with, youknow, a grain of salt and do
what's best for your story, butthey are there for a reason.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Yeah.
And you know, if you understandthem, then when you don't do
them, you know why.
And you'll know what works foryour story because your story is
going to be you as anindividual, and there might be
something in it that that justdoesn't work.
Right.
At least you understand why andyou can compensate for it so
that there is enough tension inthe story at the right moments
(27:29):
to keep the reason.
SPEAKER_00 (27:30):
Right.
I think that reason why orknowing why is so important too,
because like you were saying,your midpoint could be one
scene, two scenes, three scenes,whatever.
And as long as it works andyou're not just like cramming in
a bunch of information or, youknow, doing the things that are
not recommended to do, as longas you have a good reason why,
most people are not going tocomplain.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
No.
And if you look at Game ofThrones, the midpoint there,
three chapters.
I can't remember the exactorder, but Tyrion Lannister, Jon
Snow, and Ned Stark all have apoint of view and they're all
part of the they're all part ofthe middle middle plot point
where the humans get proactiveagainst the White Walkers in a
kind of hidden way becausethey're not a they're not big in
(28:09):
the scene at that point.
Exactly at that point, but it'sthree characters, three three
chapters.
Yeah.
So talk to us about the climax.
So the climax, this is somethingI've I learned as an editor.
Many writers can write a reallyexciting climax scene.
Like you're reading and think,that is fantastic.
It has nothing to do with thestory.
Right.
So, for example, if if we'reliving in a society of vampires,
(28:35):
and this is a made-up story, andum you can get a vaccination
against vampires, but only untilyou're five years old.
And it's really expensive.
So there's the there's thedrama.
If the scene at the end is agreat big battle with vampires,
great.
What happened to the protagonistin trying to get this
vaccination?
This it has to answer did she ordidn't she get her vaccination?
(28:59):
Is she or isn't she a vampire?
Right.
Has to answer that.
And so the biggest struggle withclimax scenes is remembering,
and again, we get back to what'syour story about?
Your protagonist must accomplishsomething.
Either they do or they don't,and it's clear in the climax
scene.
And once that happens, the storyis over.
Yeah.
Done.
Right.
And then you have a resolutionand you're closing a mission,
(29:20):
the stuff that comes after it.
And typically that's for showingwho is the character now.
How did it change them?
And what's their new world?
And if you're writing a series,what's coming next in the in the
series?
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
Yeah.
And I agree.
It's so funny that you said thatabout kind of you're writing a
climax that answers somethingtotally different than the main
story question.
I see that happen all the time.
It's like, um, it'll start outas what seems like a romance,
and then by the end, we'reconfronting the guy that killed
somebody, and you're like, Howdid we get here?
So sometimes writers willrealize this has happened, and
(29:53):
then they'll say, Well, I likethis, the climax, and and I
don't want to change the climax.
And it's like, okay, cool.
You can do whatever you want.
It's your story.
Just make sure that thebeginning matches the end, or
vice versa.
Yes, you have to go back andwrite beginning part.
And your story blurb.
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
You gotta write the book description to match that.
Yeah.
That is a story.
And it can happen where youwrite your story and you think,
nope, it's actually this.
Right.
A lot of work.
Which is why, if ahead of timeyou know what your five story
arc scenes are, in a very highlevel, you can keep focused.
And then that saves a ton oftime of getting to a climax and
going, no, that's not my story.
SPEAKER_00 (30:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:30):
Rewrite.
SPEAKER_00 (30:31):
And even you kind of hinted at this earlier, but even
for someone who's a pantser,just kind of thinking through
it.
You don't have to do anyplanning or any, you know,
anything that you feel like isgoing to cage you in, but just
thinking through it and thinkingthese are the options I could
play with or whatever.
And the knowledge of these storyarc scenes will inform your
draft as well.
Yeah.
I think it's valuable foranybody, no matter who you
(30:52):
identify as.
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
You know, the thing about if I'm going to give you
two things, like the mostimportant things to do when
you're writing a story to yourpantster, that's great.
If you know who's yourprotagonist, what's their goal,
and what's at stake if theydon't achieve that goal.
And you know what your climaxscene is.
Every scene you write, you canask yourself, does it help or
(31:13):
hinder the protagonist inachieving that goal?
Every scene.
And then you know it belongs inyour book.
It gives you a ton of ideas,like we're doing goal attempts.
Wait, I just did one where theysucceeded.
So I better do one where theyfail.
So I keep the tension going.
And you can look at every sceneyou're writing and figure out,
okay, that does this make sensein the context of my story, or
do I have to adapt it just alittle bit?
(31:34):
So now it's helping or hinderingthem to get that goal.
Right.
And then you don't write allover the place and spend hours
and hours writing stuff thataren't going to be in your book.
SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
I love that idea.
And and it goes back to kind ofwhat I talk about all the time
is these are all tools to helpus do what we want to do.
So you can pick them up, putthem down whenever you want or
whenever you need them.
And sounds like you're sayingthe same thing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:54):
Yeah.
And and you know, flexibility isjust a little bit of knowledge
and the flexibility, you write abetter story.
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
Yeah.
And being open to maybe goingdown some rabbit holes too and
getting things wrong sometimes,you know?
The more we cross off our listof this doesn't belong in our
story, the closer we get to whatdoes.
SPEAKER_01 (32:09):
Yes.
So it's hard to do.
I mean, none of us.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
I know.
I'm a rec I say I'm a recoveringperfectionist.
It's very hard to do.
But you know, I think once youpractice with that kind of stuff
too, it does get a lot easier.
But okay, so let's talk about.
I have two or three things Iwant to ask you about.
So one is like if I'm a writerand I'm stuck in my draft, how
often do you think I would bestuck because I'm not nailing
one of these key scenes?
(32:33):
Or probably because I don't havea goal.
Like, talk to me about what youwould do if you were stuck.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
So if you're stuck, I like to say, and I know I'm
repeating this, but you go backto what's your story about?
And where are you in the story?
So if you know, for example,you're somewhere between the
middle plot point and plot pointtwo, between those scenes,
there's external pressures thateither help or hinder the
(32:58):
protagonist in achieving theirstory goal.
And you start thinking aboutwhat could those external
pressures be?
Well, I'm in a romance and we'vejust gotten past this middle
plot point, and things lookfantastic.
And oh, my love interest ex justarrived back on the scene.
And oh, by the way, they weremarried for eight years and have
three children and two dogs, andyou know, right.
(33:21):
Yeah.
Or they get erroneousinformation that their their
love interest is cheating onthem.
And so they go, gotta end thisrelationship, and that's all
over.
And so you look at where you arein the story and then think
about well, what three externalpressures could I put?
And different ones, it can't bethree times their ek comes back.
unknown (33:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
It could even be a little crazy.
Their ek comes back, and thenthey get they get offered the
job with their dreams, but oops,in a different country.
And then, you know, whatever itis, but you start brainstorming
about what can I put in theirway, that's an external that
they have to decide what they'regonna do about it.
And so it starts to give youideas uh of what to do.
(34:04):
The other thing I I I like to dois I start working on a
different section.
So if I'm stuck at one point, Iand I do all my story arc scenes
first, and then I do the leadups and the and the reaction
scenes, and then I do thefill-in and I I just stop.
Okay, I'm stuck here, I'm gonnago over here now.
Instead of external pressures,I'm gonna work somewhere on
goals.
Let's do some goal attempts.
(34:25):
Let's do that and I change justto open up my brain.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Yeah.
Kind of like shake your brainloose and get some new ideas
going.
SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
I love that.
So it's it's kind of if I'mhearing you right, it's like
look at the big picture, thinkabout what your story is really
about, look at those uh storyarc scenes, and then kind of
think logically from yourcharacter's perspective, like
what are some things that theywould do, and or what are some
things you could throw in theirway.
And usually some combination ofthat will get you unstuck.
SPEAKER_01 (34:51):
And you know, the other thing too is if you look
at uh if you're writing afantasy and you have a romance
subplot, stop working on themain plot and go work on the
subplot a little bit.
SPEAKER_00 (35:01):
That's a great idea.
SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
Maybe the muse is they're living over in the
subplot, they're not living overhere today, they're over there.
I'll go over there and findthem.
And so you can start looking at,well, how am I gonna put my
subplot in and what makes sensefor my for my subplot and which
which plot points have to happenbefore the others?
And when you're looking at, ifyou combined, say a romance and
a fantasy, which is verypopular, right?
(35:24):
Both the romance and the fantasyin that book are gonna have an
inciting incident.
And so you you look at, well, ifwe look at at the inciting
incident for Fourth Wing,happens before the story starts.
The inciting incident whereshe's going to go to dragon
college, the inciting incidentwith the dragons, well, that has
to happen after she's gone todragon college.
So of course the other one hasto come first.
(35:46):
And you can start thinking aboutokay, I've got this romance now.
Here's where they meet, here'swhere there's attraction, here's
where there's amisunderstanding, here's where
they break up, and here's wherethey get together.
SPEAKER_00 (35:56):
Where do those scenes fit and go write those?
Right.
And then you can probably seeall these avenues of how they'll
play together.
Yeah.
So I love that idea too.
And something that I tellwriters is when you're stuck, if
you're in the big pictureoutlining, you can zoom into a
scene and or vice versa.
So just kind of switch yourlens, and that usually will
help.
That's a great idea.
Let's go back to this idea of uhmulti-point of view because you
(36:18):
said Game of Thrones.
I know people are going to bewondering how do we do this if
we're writing a multi-point ofview?
Do if we have three point ofview characters, do we need
three sets of story arc scenes?
SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
Right.
And the answer, of course, isno, you don't.
You can.
So if we look at, you know,books like Everyone Here is
Lying, or it's very popularright now in the mystery genre
to have a many points of viewcharacters.
So you got your suspects andyour detective or your amateur
sleuth or whatever.
Fantasy also, depending on thetype of fantasy, can be single
(36:51):
protagonist or multiple pointsof view, different things,
right?
So when you're looking at, let'ssee if I can think of a good
example of there's so manysingle point of view novels.
So if we look at Game ofThrones, we'll stick with that
because that's it's famous andit and it has lots.
They basically have a group, thehumans, who have to figure out
(37:12):
how they're going to use thesupernatural to overtake the
White Walkers or they all die.
So that's one story arc.
Then there's individual storyarcs for some of the characters,
but not all of them.
One of their point of viewcharacters has one scene.
He's the poor guy who dies inscene one.
Oops.
Right.
The characters that do, somewill have a full story arc all
(37:32):
the way through.
Some will just have pieces of astory arc.
In a series, some of their storyarc will go over the series,
some will end in book one.
So you have a lot of artisticchoice on how you're going to
bring the two together.
In a romance, quite often, therewill be a full romance story
arc, and then there'll be apartial external.
(37:53):
So the one character's externalgoal might be, you know, I'm I
have to sell my restaurant.
And so, but that is onlyvaluable until they have close
proximity.
So lots of times in a romance,you need close proximity.
There's a reason the two romancelove interests need to be forced
together.
(38:14):
But once that's done, that storyarc is over.
Done over.
And that could end up plot pointone really early.
So there's so much flexibilitythere.
Maybe you just have the incitingincident and a climax.
Often, if it's a secondary one,there won't be a plot point two
because there can only be onelowest of the low.
Right.
And so there is no plot pointtwo for that particular story
(38:37):
arc.
So you need your main one andthen you start playing with the
other ones.
SPEAKER_00 (38:40):
Yeah.
I think it depends too if it'slike an ensemble cast that's all
together, like in Six of Crowsor something versus Game of
Thrones, where they're allspread out, you know, because if
you're writing a story like Gameof Thrones, you might have each
person does have a true storyarc as well as the overarching
story arc.
Where in Six of Crows, you mighthave the group has a story arc,
you know.
SPEAKER_01 (39:00):
Yeah, it's exactly the point, right?
So anybody in that group can bethe can be the point of view for
the story arc scenes.
Usually the protagonist is thepoint of view for the story arc
scenes.
That's what the reader wants tosee, right?
The big events are happening,they better be part of it.
But it can be anybody in thatensemble.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Yeah, love it.
Okay, and so a couple lastquestions.
If you were in the editing phaseand you're looking at your full
draft, do you recommend kind ofstarting with the lens of these
five story arc scenes to kind ofjust say, does this work in
general?
Yeah.
And I call that the story test.
SPEAKER_01 (39:33):
Do you have a story?
And so when you look at it andyou go through and you pull out
a single sentence for every youdo your after draft outline,
where are your five scenes?
Are they in the right place?
Are they doing what they'resupposed to be doing?
Well, and do you have all five?
SPEAKER_02 (39:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:50):
Right.
And that is your very firstthing because if that's not
there, you don't have a storyyet.
So don't bother editing anythingelse.
If there's no plot point two,you have to go write it and put
it in.
Then you can edit the rest ofthe stories.
It, you know, or say, forexample, your inciting incident
doesn't happen until 40% intothe story.
You gotta look at what's youhave to get it restructured so
(40:11):
it's in the right place andyeah, forward.
And then and then you know youhave a story.
And then it's worth editing downat the detail level.
SPEAKER_00 (40:18):
Yeah.
And sometimes I see people likein that example you said of do
you even have a climax scene?
And if you don't, you need tofigure that out.
Some people I've seen, they'llthey'll be like, Well, oh, it's
hard.
I'll figure it out later.
And then they go and they editlike act one to the detail, and
it's like, well, you don'treally know what details are
going to be relevant or that youneed to set up because you don't
know what your climax lookslike.
(40:39):
Exactly.
So sometimes we have I do thistoo.
We avoid something because itfeels hard.
It's hard.
And it's hard.
But it's like your job is beingmade so much more hard by not
doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (40:49):
It is, and you know, you look at the climax scene
where you have a special object.
Should be in the beginning, too,right?
Right.
So my advice when people areediting, don't touch scene one
until you did the rest.
Just leave it alone.
You've got it.
It might not even be where youend up starting, but just leave
it alone.
Often a writer will get hung up.
Perfect, perfect, perfect,perfect, perfect.
Get to the end and go, I don'teven need that scene.
(41:10):
So to keep going when you'rerevising, leave it alone.
Like you've got a scene.
Great.
People start somewhere.
Get to the end.
And you go back and you're like,whoa, what I really need, it
should start in scene three.
And I need to put this object inbecause here it is, and I want a
mirror, so it feels reallyclosed.
And my des full circle.
So now I can go back and dothat.
SPEAKER_00 (41:30):
But you got to and it's funny you say that because
so many writers will be like,How do professional authors do
this?
They put the clues in, they makethe mirror scenes, and it's
like, you can do it too.
You just need to get to the endand know what your story's about
before you can put all thesecool things in.
You're never gonna know them ondraft one.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
No, and when you go back and uh murder in the Irish
village.
So it's a uh cozy mystery withan amateur sleuth.
And in the opening scene, youmeet like four of the suspects,
the murder weapon, theantagonist, the protagonist.
And when you read it and thenyou go back and you look at
every single thing in thatopening scene, you think, yep,
(42:06):
used, used, used, used, used.
Every clue is there.
Yeah.
I love that.
As a reader, you just read it.
It's like, oh, this is a goodscene.
But as a writer, she had to knowthat.
SPEAKER_00 (42:17):
Yeah.
I love that.
And personally, when I read abook, I always finish and I go
back and reread the firstchapter because I'm just a nerd
about can I see all the thingsthat she dropped that I didn't
know or whatever?
I think it's super fun.
But okay, so is there any likefinal piece of advice you would
give to writers who are feelingoverwhelmed by structure and who
want to make sure they'regetting all these things right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Bit by bit.
I had a boss who said inch byinch, life's this inch.
So when things get overwhelmingand too stressful, pick
something small and just do thatbecause you'll get there.
If you get overwhelmed, juststop.
That's very sad, right?
But if you just do littlepieces, you get one piece done,
great.
And if you're totallyfrustrated, walk away for a bit
and come back.
(42:57):
But do try and do smaller thingsinstead of looking at, wow, I
just sat down, I have 80,000words to write.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Write a scene that you'rereading to most people for the
record.
It's very intimidating.
And and I think, you know,anyone who's trying to write a
novel is a high achiever.
And anyone who has never writtena novel doesn't understand how
hard it is to write a novel andhow much work it takes, how much
(43:20):
thought it takes, how muchemotion it takes, all of these
things.
And so make it easier onyourself and pick smaller
segments instead of trying tomake it perfect.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
I love that advice.
Progress over perfection.
That's what I say.
Okay, so where can listenerslearn more about fictionary and
all the cool resources you have?
Sure.
SPEAKER_01 (43:40):
So we have uh the fictionary school for writers
and editors, and you can joinfor free.
It's fictionary.circle.so.
And we do a whole bunch of freeclasses.
We have trained editors who askanswer questions so you can ask
specifically about yourmanuscript.
We have a section of courses weteach where we don't record
them, so we can actually work onyour manuscript live, which is
(44:02):
really fun.
We do workshops where we'llgive, say, 15 minutes of theory,
and then we turn recording off,and then we just work on stuff
together.
So we're trying to provide anenvironment where it's
affordable, everybody hasaccess.
We, of course, have a paidportion of the school, but we
have a huge portion that's justfor anybody who wants to come in
and write their novel,basically.
SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
And be around like-minded people who are also
working on their novels.
I love that.
And so, speaking of the editorsyou have trained, you have a
free gift for everyone listeningthat involves them.
What is that?
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
Yes.
Okay, so it's a course that wehave.
It's called An Insider's View ofStory Editing.
And what we did, we had 13editors edit the same novel and
then studied how they did it,and then wrote what what worked,
what didn't work from aneditor's perspective on
basically the goal is to showwriters what you should expect
(44:54):
from a story editor.
And so we put in the good andthe bad throughout, showing all
of the different pieces and whyit's so important if you hire a
structural editor or storyeditor to find one that suits
you, because editors have theirown voice and you need to find
one that works for you and whatthey're looking for and kind of
know your weaknesses when youhave have an editor that I
(45:18):
particularly repeat.
I need an editor who's gonna payattention to that and go,
k'chunk, nope.
You already said stop thinking,right?
So, you know, you get carriedaway, you write that sentence,
and then you write yourdifferent way.
So it's the course is designedto really give writers a view of
what editors do, and then youcan take that knowledge and
apply it to your own story.
Of course, you can.
SPEAKER_00 (45:38):
Yeah, I love that.
I love a good behind the scenes.
So not only do we get to see howeditors really work, but also
you can learn from the littlecourse as well.
So that's very cool.
We will link to how to accessthat in the show notes.
We'll link to fictionary andwhere you can find the resources
that Christina mentioned.
Thank you so much for being heretoday, Christina.
It was a joy to have you and tonerd out about structure.
SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
I know I love talking to you about structure.
It is so much fun.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
Thank you.
All right, so that's it for thisepisode of the Fiction Writing
Made Easy Podcast.
Head over to SavannahGilbo.comforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
(46:24):
specific writing stage, whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannaGilbo.com forward slashquiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
where you're at and help you getto your next big milestone.
Last but not least, make sure tofollow this podcast in your
(46:45):
podcast player of choice becauseI'll be back next week with
another episode full ofactionable tips, tools, and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
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