October 28, 2025 • 47 mins
Ever wonder why some horror stories linger in your mind long after the lights go out? Jamie Nash reveals how structure (not jump scares or gore) creates true terror.
In this episode, I’m joined by Jamie Nash, screenwriter and author of Save the Cat! Writes Horror, the ultimate guide to creating “Monster in the House” stories that keep readers up at night.
With over 25 years of experience writing and teaching horror (including films like V/H/S/2 and Lovely Molly), Jamie shares how to craft terrifying tales using Blake Snyder’s iconic Save the Cat! framework. We talk about how structure, theme, and moral depth make stories truly scary and how to balance dread, scares, and gross-outs for maximum impact.
Whether you’re writing a slow-burn psychological thriller or a relentless survival horror, this episode will show you how to use the Save the Cat! framework to make every scream count.
[03:45] What makes a novel truly horror and how to tell if your story actually fits this genre (before you waste time writing the wrong one).
[05:58] The three ingredients every unforgettable horror story needs and why missing even one can ruin your scare factor.
[18:24] How to use Save the Cat! beats to build tension and fear so your story feels cohesive and terrifying, not random and rushed.
[24:11] The two main types of horror pacing, and which one to choose to keep your readers gripped.
[32:53] Why passive heroes kill good horror and how to turn your protagonist into the story’s fiercest weapon.
[36:32] The difference between dread, scares, and gross outs, and why dread flags (red flags that signal unease) are the true engine of horror.
If you’ve ever wondered how to write horror that lingers long after the last page, this conversation with Jamie Nash is your masterclass in scarecraft.
🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
All horror at some point devolves into a battle for
survival.
If the battle for survival nevercomes about, maybe it's not
horror.
And that battle for survival, itdoesn't necessarily have to be
whether you live or die.
It could be your identity istaken away or something like
that.
It's something primal, though.
It's not metaphorical.
(00:20):
It's not like, and then I lostmyself to marriage or something.
You know, it's it's definitelysomething primal.
But I think all horror by theend of it becomes a battle for
survival.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
Podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo, andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable, and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:54):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're divinginto what it takes to write a
horror story that truly works.
And I couldn't be more excitedto have Jamie Nash joining me
today.
Jamie is a seasonedscreenwriter, novelist, and the
author of the brand new bookSave the Cat Writes Horror,
(01:15):
which honestly I am completelyobsessed with.
In this episode, Jamie breaksdown the three key ingredients
every horror story needs, howthe Save the Cat beats show up
in the horror genre, and mypersonal favorite, how to figure
out where your story lands, onwhat Jamie calls the
dreadometer.
It's such a fun and fascinatingconcept, and I can't wait for
you to hear all about it.
So without further ado, let'sdive right into my conversation
(01:38):
with Jamie Nash.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
So, you know, at heart, I'm a screenwriter.
That's that's really what I am.
And I mostly have written horrorscreenplays.
Um I've I've written a couplehorror novels as well.
Uh, but for the most part, Iwrite horror screenplays.
But early in my career, when Iactually wanted to be a comedy
screenwriter, I I actually metBlake Snyder, the original
(02:01):
writer of Save the Cat.
And uh he and I co-wrote acouple of scripts way back then
when I was when I was firststarting in screenwriting.
How fun.
And yeah, and he kind of in myearly in my career, he kind of
indoctrinated me into the savethe cat world.
And uh I've been using it eversince.
So um, so that's how I kind ofcame to write Save the Cat
(02:22):
Writes Horror.
And I've also written two otherSave the Cat books before this.
Uh Save the Cat Writes for TVand um the Save the Cat Beat
Sheet workbook.
SPEAKER_02 (02:32):
Awesome.
We'll link to all that in theshow notes.
But so I was gonna ask you whyyou decided to do the horror
book, and it makes so much sensebecause horror is your realm.
SPEAKER_00 (02:40):
Yeah, definitely.
Um, when I was a kid, I saw I Iguess I was a little kid.
I grew up, I'm an 80s kid, butwhen I was a little kid, it was
the 70s, and um, I saw somemovies I shouldn't have seen at
a very early age, like TheExorcist, Halloween.
Like I saw all those moviesbefore I was 10, you know.
(03:01):
So um, and then in the 80s,there was such a popular I was a
movie kid.
I like all movies.
Uh, you know, I saw Jaws andRaiders of the Lost Ark and Star
Wars and all the things everykid loved in the 80s.
Right now I'm wearing a Goonieshirt, so that kind of tells you
where I'm at.
Um, but there were so manyhorror movies that for every
(03:23):
blockbuster movie, I'd say wesaw one horror movie, you know,
Nightmare on Elm Street, a Jasonmovie, um, something like
Serpent and the Rainbow, or Idon't know, there was always
something going on.
And as kids, we just, you know,whether it was on the VCR or
actually going to the theater,we saw horror movies every week.
(03:43):
So, you know, I I saw maybethousands of horror movies work
before I, you know, even startedto think about writing them.
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
I love that.
So let's go to the verybeginning and let's talk about
what it actually means to writea horror story or how do we
define stories that fit in thisgenre, or as Save the Cat calls
it, the monster in the housegenre.
SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
Yeah, and it's it's a tricky thing to to actually
define it.
And there's been a lot of onlinedebates in recent years,
especially as horror has gotteninto more what when I pitch to
producers, they call elevatedhorror horror.
And elevated is this new termthey bounce around a lot in the
movie world, where it's kind oflike it's kind of this weird
(04:25):
elitist term, like it's betterthan that old horror stuff you
used to watch.
You know, this is this issomething better.
And and get out kind of kickedoff that the movie Get Out with
Jordan Peel.
Um, by the by the way, I shouldsay my book is for novelists as
well.
And much like you, my love ofhorror actually started probably
more in the in reading, evenmore so than the movies.
(04:48):
Because while the movies, myfavorite movies were like
Goonies.
If you look at my bookshelf,it's all by Barker and Stephen
King and Dean Arkunts and allthese other authors that I loved
when I was a kid.
And and those to me were allelevated horror.
I mean, they all were telling,in, in my opinion, dramatic
stories.
It's it's something I mentionedin the book that Jason Blum once
(05:10):
said, what's the indie drama,the kind of Oscar-winning indie
drama that gets interrupted bythe monster?
And you kind of have to figurethat part out if you want to
write quote unquote elevatedhorror.
And the books I was reading as akid did that all the time.
Um, but then the questionbecomes if it's more shifting
toward that indie drama and lessthe monster, is it a horror
(05:33):
movie or is it something else?
My personal conclusion, my my Ihave two hot takes.
Uh number one is I think allhorror at some point devolves
into a battle for survival.
If the battle for survival nevercomes about, maybe it's not
horror.
And that battle for survivor,survival, it doesn't necessarily
(05:56):
have to be whether you live ordie.
It could be your identity istaken away or something like
that.
I it's something primal, though.
It's not metaphorical, it's notlike, and then I lost myself to
marriage or something.
You know, it's it's definitelysomething primal.
But I think all horror by theend of it, by act three, becomes
a battle for survival.
(06:16):
And then you're just kind of thequestion is when does it become
a battle?
But then the the other thingthat Save the Cat illustrates is
there's this thing called themonster in the house.
And um, the monster in thehouse, there's there's these
things in the original Save theCat book that I learned about as
an early screenwriter.
Um, there were these 10 genresin Save the Cat.
(06:38):
That won't go through all ofthem, but just to give you an
idea, his genres were storypatterns.
They weren't genres like when Iwent into Blockbuster video and
it was comedy and romance andthings like that.
Instead, they were more likewhat type of story are you
telling?
And his were like golden fleece,which would be the hunt for a
trophy or a treasure, or maybe aroad trip with a destination.
(07:00):
That was the golden fleece.
And then he'd have Buddy Love,which could be romance, or it
could be a story like E orsomething, you know, where
Elliot and E.T.
Bond or Black Stallion, even, isa Buddy Love story.
And he came up with 10 of these.
And I'll be honest, of all thesave the cat things, I remember
when I first read it, I'm like,yeah, he's got 10, but I bet you
I can think of some more ofthese.
(07:21):
I bet you, I bet you, and Iafter all these years, I've
never once had a really good,oh, here's the one he missed.
Um, he really he really did agreat job with those 10.
But the one I dabbled in most isthe monster in the house genre.
And the monster in the housegenre is defined by three
specific elements.
There's a monster, and thatcould be supernatural or or
(07:44):
someone just so evil or sorelentless that they almost
border on supernatural.
So you're, you know, like aMichael Myers or Jason or
something, even though I knowthe later movies, those
characters became supernatural,but yeah, uh something like
that.
Um, but also, you know, FreddieKrueger or the monsters in a
quiet place, or or or thecreatures in the centers.
(08:05):
I I said creatures because Ididn't want to spoil it.
Um so any of those could be themonsters.
The house is the next the nextpoint.
And that the way the thing Idoubled down on the house after
my years of writing horrorstories, the key thing to figure
out in your house is why is thathouse a trap?
Why can't people just leave?
(08:27):
You know, um, I I actually wastalking to someone about this
the other day, and they saidthat's their problem with
stranger things.
Why don't they just move awayfrom the town?
You know, at season three.
Um, but what is the trap?
How is how are they trapped inthe house?
And there's the book actuallylists many ways you can trap
people from being a remotelocation to kind of going
(08:47):
somewhere illegal, you're notsupposed to go, or or even it
could be your own body, like ina case of the substance or a
movie like that, or the fly oror a werewolf movie.
And the most the one that Ilearned from the most early on
as a young horror writer, and Idon't think I was including, and
I think this is the one thatelevates horror is the sin.
(09:08):
Um, the sin is something thatbrings about the monster that
makes us vulnerable to themonster.
And it doesn't have to be yourhero, it could be society, like
in Godzilla, nuclear war bringsabout the monster or something
like that.
But I do think that's the part,the key to elevating your horror
is choosing the right sin, whichwhich leads to something Josh
(09:31):
Whedon used to say in the Buffyuniverse.
Um, monster is metaphor.
What you know, what is themetaphor of your monster?
So between the battle forsurvival and the monster in the
house, like I kind of smooshthose two together.
And what I ultimately say isevery story, every horror story
devolves into a monster in thehouse story at some point.
(09:53):
It may start out as a goldenfleece or bloody love, but by
act three, there's a monster,there's a house, and there's a
sin, and there's a battle forsurvival.
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
I have so much I want to say about that.
So, in the book, for um anyonewho's writing kind of a blended
story, you do talk about thissetup could look like where you
have horror elements, but if youdon't have that survival or
those survival stakes and youdon't have the monster in the
house, then it could just belike on the other side of the
spectrum of horror.
And you also talk aboutrelentless horror and slow burn,
(10:22):
which we'll get into in asecond.
Um, but on these three things,so let's just recap them really
quick.
Number one is the monster, whichI want to dive into later.
And then the second is thehouse, which doesn't have to be
a literal house.
It can be just any kind ofclaustrophobic, isolated
setting.
And I would love to hear youtalk about that a little more
because I think a lot of writerswill check the box.
(10:43):
Like I have this isolated umpsychiatric ward or whatever.
And it's like, think about why.
Think about why we want themtrapped, right?
Why do we want it isolate?
Why do we want itclaustrophobic?
Can you talk about that a littlemore?
SPEAKER_00 (10:55):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, and I I think the big thingis you have to take away their
free will.
Like that's that's what I alwayssay.
It comes down to free will.
Because if any time at any timethey can they can check out of
it or they can leave, then thetension just goes away.
It's like that in in fact, itcan turn you against your heroes
(11:16):
because it almost they almostdeserve it, you know, at that
point.
It's like they know evil'sthere, they know there's a
monster, they're not runningaway, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
They're not using logic.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
They they almost deserve what they get at that
point.
Um, and there's all kinds likein the book.
I I come I usually give lists tohelp you brainstorm, you know,
so you don't just go to thedefault, like, oh, I need a
house.
And you know, there's a movielike that I saw last year,
Abigail, and the doors lock, andthey're you know, they're
(11:46):
trapped, they're trying to getout.
They're like, oh no, I can't getout.
Um, there are other movies likeRosemary's Baby, where it's like
more societal, you know, it'slike she's trapped in a
different way.
It's it's she she's trappedbecause of her social situation.
Yeah, um, she's she's beinggaslit and almost being trapped.
Then there's other movies likeThe Walking Dead that they're
(12:07):
trapped because where could yougo?
I mean, the whole world is ismonsters.
Um, right.
So I have lists to help peoplebrainstorm those if they want
to.
And I tend to go overboard withthe list because much like much
like Blake Snyder's 10 genres, Iwant to make sure I hit most of
them.
In this case, I miss, I'm sure Imiss more than he he ever had.
But I have a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
There are, yeah, there are so many.
And I know readers are gonnalove that because I even as I
was reading it yesterday, I'mlike, I could use this in my
fantasy novel.
So I appreciate the lists.
Um, but yeah, so I think you'reright.
Um, and I just want to reiteratewhat you said for listeners that
keeping them kind of in thishouse or in this claustrophobic
isolated setting, uh, it justyou know helps us evoke those,
(12:47):
that sense of fear.
It also helps raise the stakestoo, because you can only have
you only have so many things towork with in that isolated
setting.
And as people die or things gettaken away, or you what a great
way to raise the stakes.
Okay, so we had the monster ofthe house and then the sin.
So the sin you said was one ofyour biggest learnings.
And um, how does that or does itconnect with the monster?
(13:09):
And how does that kind of stuffrelate to theme or does it
relate to theme?
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Yes.
And this is this is my, youknow, uh again, it was the
biggest thing I learned becauseI think when I was writing
before I started to use the sin,maybe I'd stumble into the sin,
or the theme might be aboutsomething different.
But it was when I startedstarted to add this into the
mix, I believe my horror reallytook off um and got a lot
better.
(13:33):
And my first sale, my firstscreenplay sale was a horror
script.
Um, and uh it in in that in thatone, so I'll tell you a little
bit about one that one, it wascalled Altered, and it was it
was originally a horror comedyabout I always say it's it was
rednecks who abduct an alien.
Like that's what the story wasabout.
Yeah.
But and and deep down though, itwas kind of a story about these
(13:56):
kind of brothers in a sense.
And it became a drama.
Like originally it was a horrorcomedy, it became a drama.
And once I nailed down that itwas really about brothers who
had this deep secret, this kindof shame from the past, um, they
were abused in some ways byaliens, and in revenge, they
abduct an alien because theywant answers and they want
understanding, and that's whatelevated it and actually got it
(14:19):
sold.
Um so it was actually once Idiscovered this kind of
metaphor, um, it was key.
So um, so back to your question,like the sin usually brings
about the horror.
So the the example I tend to go,because again, 80s kids,
Spielberg, was poltergeist.
Um, if you remember poltergeist,the the reason the ghost is
(14:40):
there is because they builthouses on top of a graveyard.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:44):
And there's this big scene where they say, you know,
they took away the markers andthey and they just built the
houses.
And it's this kind of what'swhat's the word?
Desecration, blasphemy, whateveryou want to say it is, this kind
of ignorance of of that, andjust kind of for greed purposes.
Similarly with Alien, it's allabout greed.
Like if you're watching AlienEarth Earth right now, it's all
(15:07):
about greed, right?
It's always it's alwayscorporate greed.
Um, I I think in the lastepisode there was a there was a
comment.
This is a place of yes, not aplace of no.
Like you never say no here, youknow.
We always push forward, we movefast and break things.
And that's kind of the sin inthat that brings about the
monster because they're they'repushing boundaries into these
(15:28):
danger zones, yeah.
Um, and you know, recklessly.
Um, and so the other big thing Ilike to talk about with the sin
is you know, you said, is ityour theme?
Is it not?
Oftentimes it is your theme.
Oftentimes the hero needs tolearn some version of that, you
know, and it's this is wherethemes can get tricky because I
(15:51):
always feel like in most of mystories, there's this personal
theme that's very personal.
Like I need to learn to um payas much attention to my kids as
I do my job or whatever.
That's the common one.
I I do a lot of kids' moviestoo, right?
Um, but I always feel that thattheme relates to some bigger
(16:11):
macro theme that maybe if thereis a big villain or politics
involved or something, the worldneeds to learn.
There's some version of it thatkind of connects the dots.
Um, but what I always say isyour hero does not have to
commit the sin to invoke themonster.
There is there is this weirdkarmic math that happens in
(16:34):
horror movies where as long assomebody commits a sin, we
understand that somebody has topay the price.
SPEAKER_02 (16:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
And um, there's a math in horror, and that's why
the sin is there.
So it's not pure nihilism.
At the end of the day, much likethe EC comics I read as a kid,
there's a moral to most of thesestories.
And even if somebody who doesn'tdeserve to die dies in the end
and there's a dark ending, wecan kind of walk away agreeing
that the sin brought about thething.
(17:04):
And it's sort of a happy endingto us because we go off with the
lesson that as long as we don'tcommit that sin, or as long as
we fight not to have that sincommitted, we'll have a happy
ending.
We'll be okay.
So, in some ways, horror isn'tas dark as some people.
I mean, it's a dark way to tellthat theme, you know, but it's
(17:24):
not sometimes horror can benihilistic.
SPEAKER_02 (17:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
They tend to not be the most popular horror movies.
The the more popular ones tendto be the elevated ones with the
message and the sin that we canunderstand and kind of end with
that karmic equation intact.
SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
Yeah, I like what you're saying about all that
too, because writers will ask mea lot, or I'll hear a lot
sometimes that it's, you know,they really want to write horror
or they really want to writesci-fi or something, but they're
like, I don't know if that'smeaningful enough.
And I'm like, it can be someaningful.
Are you kidding me?
Every genre can be meaningful.
So I love how you're kind ofputting those pieces together.
And you go into way more detailabout that in the book.
(18:00):
Um, so if anyone's interested,you can grab that.
We'll link to it in the shownotes.
Um, but also the other thing youexplore a lot is the horror
beats and how those the save thecat beats show up differently.
And I know that a lot of myaudience has uh Jessica's Save
the Cat writes a novel book.
So they're used to the beats.
Um, but is there like talk aboutthat a little bit?
Because if we're going back tothe horror, like what makes
(18:23):
horror, it's about survival witha monster in a house with a sin.
So talk about kind of how thatshows up in the beats a little
bit.
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
Yeah, yeah.
So what I do in the book too,and the book, if you haven't
read Save the Cat, I do enoughof an overview that it's there.
I think it works best almost ifyou've read read the first one
and read this one, but you don'thave to.
Um, and what I did was I I kindof pointed out some specific
beats that needed a littleflashlight shined on them, yeah,
(18:53):
for lack of a better term, uh,for horror.
And um there's a couple of them.
So number one, I think is theopening scare.
Um, the the opening scare, mostof the time in horror movies,
and it happens in horror novelstoo, especially when you're
submitting to agents and thingslike that.
You want that, you want to showthem you can write horror.
(19:13):
So if you're sending your firstchapter, you kind of want a
horror beat in there, right?
Yeah, but but there's differentways that the opening scare can
happen.
And so I again I list a bunch ofcommon ways.
And uh one is like the firstkill.
Like that's a very common traitis people show the first kill.
That's like one of the mostcommon.
Recently, I've seen a lot offlash forwards.
(19:35):
Like, here's page, you know, ina in a screenplay, here's page
50, or here's page 75.
Sinners did this recently.
Here's the end of the movie.
Let's show you how we got here.
And it can it can kind of giveyou that little horror juice
early in the story.
I I know in novels, not aspopular, but sometimes the
prologue, you know, the originof the horror, like how the
(19:56):
horror came about.
That can be another popular one.
Um, the one I see in a lot ofmovies these days, especially
the indie drama movies, and oneI use a lot too, is what one I
call, and this is the one Iactually wanted to say on your
podcast, the horror the horrorbefore the horror.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that one, if you've everseen the movie like Midsummer,
(20:16):
or um, I'm trying to think ofanother movie that did it.
Have you ever saw uh FindingNemo?
Uh Finding Nemo kind of does thehorror before the horror.
Um, so I'll I'm gonna useFinding Nemo, even though not a
monster now, but I'm gonna usethat as an example.
In in the beginning of that, itshows you kind of the shard of
glass, they call it the traumathat the main character
(20:38):
experiences, that the characterarc and the theme is all about.
And it's a horrific moment.
So you can write a little horrorbeat.
And that story, I think, doesn'tsomething come and eat all the
eggs or something.
I think that's what happens atthe beginning.
So that's why he's so um, andalso I think his wife dies as
well.
Um, so that's why Marlon, well,it's pretty dark for him.
(20:59):
That's why Marlon is so obsessedwith keeping Nemo safe.
SPEAKER_01 (21:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
Um, and in a lot of a lot of stories have that
horror before the horror.
I it's funny, a lot of them havecar crashes before, you know.
I could think of Megan, I couldthink of the descent, not not a
horror movie, but Disturbia.
You know, I can think of allthese movies that have car
crashes that are the trauma thathappens well before the story
starts.
So that's the opening scare.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
Are we is that like in Jaws, how the shark attacks
first, and then we go to likethe catalyst, or is that
different?
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
So that's a good question.
Uh so and that's my that'sthat's another one I bring up.
So in that one, the shark attackis the first kill.
That's the opening scare.
And then they have the save thecat beat of the setup, which is
the ordinary world of the hero.
So that's him, life at home.
And my key thing with the, andthis is less save the cat writes
(21:51):
for her, or more save the cat.
My key thing with setups are uhhave a story before the story.
Like what's what's the storyagain, the indie drama that gets
interrupted by the monster?
Yeah, so he's already trying tofit in and stuff like that.
But then this is this is a finepoint.
The catalyst, which is the firstkind of hit, usually happens in
(22:13):
a movie around the 12-minutemark.
I think Jessica says in a novel,the 10% mark of your of your
story, um, page count-wise.
The key thing with that is thecatalyst always involves your
hero.
So so think of it this way: let's say the first kill (22:26):
undefined
happened, the sheriff was nevercalled in, or they never found
the body.
Um, but the what happens at thecatalyst of Jaws is he finds the
body.
He's called out to checksomething out and he finds it.
That's why that's the catalystand not the opening scare.
Um, so the 12-minute mark or the10% mark always should involve
(22:50):
your hero.
So that's another like twist onthe save the cat beats um that I
put in.
So there are two examples.
I have a lot more.
I kind of go into midpoints andhow they can be different.
I have a thing called thefive-point final stand because,
like I said, all things turninto a battle for survival.
Um, and the and and uh, youknow, I have a bunch, I have a
(23:11):
bunch more I'll leave for thebook, but um, but they're
there's some of the you knowearly ones that that I can hit
from.
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
Yeah, and so if you if you're listening and you like
Save the Cat and you want to golike even deeper into the weeds
of horror, that's what Jamie'sbook will help you do.
But I love that um, I love themention of what an opening scene
horror because you're right, wehave to get that flavor and tone
kind of there.
And also then when we go intothe setup, it's like we need to
know that what kind of storywe're in so that we don't just
(23:38):
start in like a small towndrama.
We need to know it's horror.
Um, and then we have thecatalyst that happens to the
hero to pull them through therest of the book.
So I love that.
And we'll put the link to thebook again so you guys listening
can go check it out.
Um, do you want to talk aboutyou mentioned in the book like
slow burn horror versusrelentless horror?
I think that's super cool.
Can you explain that?
SPEAKER_00 (23:59):
Yeah, sure.
And it's kind of the reason whyI held off on some of my beats
because I I'll talk about mybeats more when we talk about
this.
And I knew you're I knew youwere gonna ask.
So um, so yeah, slow burn versusrelentless horror.
Um, and they're just two, Imean, people talk about slow
burn all the time.
I think I just made up the termrelentless, uh, just to just to
(24:19):
kind of make sense.
And I'll describe relentlessfirst, because if you ever
follow my save the cat stuff,um, there's like a YouTube link
that gives a I give a very gooddescription of my view of the
save the cat model and how I Iview it as kind of a hero-driven
model.
Um maybe, maybe I could share itwith you uh for listen for
(24:40):
listeners.
Um, and it's like a two-hourlecture.
But if you ever listen to that,and I I'm not as strict as Blake
Snyder.
Blake Snyder, Jessica, they getthey get dinged a little bit by
people like that's not true.
It's not I I I always say savethe cats a strategy and a
really, really good one thatworks 90% of the time, but you
can play with it sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (25:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
So why am I saying this?
Because relentless horror is theversion that Jessica and Blake
would say is the thing you want.
They they would point to thatand say, so it usually comes
down to the fact that whenyou're coming up with a log
line, there's a thing calledstory DNA.
And I'm a big proponent of this.
Who's your hero?
(25:22):
What's their goal?
What's the obstacle?
What's the stakes, right?
And in in a story like like Ialways use Raiders of the Lost
Ark.
You can see I'm a Spielberg kid.
Um, Indiana Jones has to findthe lost arc, there's Nazis in
the way.
If he doesn't get the lost arc,they'll use the arc to win the
war.
Hero goal, obstacle stakes.
(25:43):
The goal is very specific and asa finish line, you can almost
see.
You could see him collecting thething.
So in relentless horror, thoseare clearly defined.
Um, so in a movie like I'll sayScream, um, Sydney must figure
out who the killer is, or maybeyou could say survive the
(26:04):
killer.
Um, the obstacle is the killer,the stakes are life and death.
It's very simple, very primal.
SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:11):
But when you get to a story, that's so that's
relentless.
SPEAKER_02 (26:15):
Well, and you also say in the book, too, that it is
kind of just like the wordrelentless, where from the start
you're in this life and deathdanger, stakes are rising all
the way through the book.
So you start out that way.
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
It's a it's an excellent point.
So so so the thing about theBlake Jessica model of Save the
Cat and my model, like when Isay use this as a strategy, is
by the break into two by the 25page mark or something before
the fun and games, you establishhero goal obstacle states, and
the whole rest of the movie isabout that.
(26:45):
Yeah, it's that's what it'sabout.
It's and the the big dramaticquestion will Sydney survive
Ghostface or will she die?
And the whole movie plays outabout that, you know, or at
least until act three.
SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Um, and then but slow burn doesn't play that.
It's or at least its log linemight be something completely it
hides the ball.
And in fact, sometimes they'rehard to pitch because you have
to pitch the midpoint.
So and and some very popularmovies uh do this.
Jurassic Park really doesn'tkick off until about the
(27:19):
50-minute mark.
Yeah, but I guarantee you whenyou pitch Jurassic Park, and
you'd say, What's it about?
Oh, it's about these dinosaurswho get loose in a theme park
and are trying to kill, but itreally doesn't happen to almost
the halfway point.
So that's why it's slow burn.
It happens in the middle.
Get out is a is a great example.
You if you if you remember thetrailers for Get Out, they
(27:39):
really didn't tell you what itwas about.
They kind of they kind of hintedat things, they showed you some
jokes, they they played coolmusic.
It was a great trailer, but theyleave a lot of it to be mystery.
Recently, weapons uh did thesame thing.
Uh, even Barbarian before thatdoes the same thing.
So the thing about slow burnhorror is the monster, it it
(28:00):
it's a couple things usuallyhappen.
The hero doesn't either doesn'tknow who the monster is, like
the monster, like in a movielike Halloween, the monster's
killing in the background, andJamie Lee Curtis has no idea
there's a monster, she'sbabysitting, she's doing
nothing, and she's the hero.
Um, and so that's one example.
The the hero has no idea there'sa monster.
(28:21):
Sometimes in a movie like Megan,um, they know there's a monster,
they're living with the monster,but they don't know it's
dangerous yet, or they don'tknow it's life or death.
So that's another common one.
And then the last but not leastis sometimes they're not trapped
with the monster, you know.
So if you're watching AlienEarth, Alien Earth right now, it
hasn't really devolved into abattle for survival totally
(28:43):
because they think they thinkthey're the ones in charge, even
though we know as the audience,uh-oh, this is gonna be a battle
for survival by the end, youknow, even though the monster's
trapped in glass.
So slowburn movies, um, that'sthat's what defines them.
Um and there's a lot of tricksuh for slowburn, and I'll just
give you one trick.
(29:04):
Um, the the problem when you getto the funny games is why isn't
this boring?
And a lot of times agents andstuff, producers in my end, they
will say, you know, we don'tknow, there's no goal here,
there's no trajectory and thingslike that.
Um, and the key thing withslowburn horror is slowburn
horror really works off oftension.
Um so and there's many ways youcan do that.
(29:27):
You can have the monster workingoff screen, and we know this
time, this ticking time bombsgetting closer and closer and
more personal and more personal,and the bomb's gonna go off at
the midpoint.
Um sometimes you the the hero isis following a mystery, like
like there's things going on.
Maybe this house seems haunted.
(29:47):
They don't think it's gonna killthem, but now they're following
the mystery of the hauntedhouse.
So there is a goal obstacle instakes.
It's just not the battle forsurvival goal obstacle and
stakes.
And last but not least, the onethat's seems to be Very popular
movies today is the dramaticindie movie is happening while
the horror stuff is happening.
So you get Sinners is a reallygood example of this.
(30:11):
Sinners has this great periodpiece story that's excellent to
watch, but it doesn't collidewith the monster until at least
probably three quarters of theway through.
But it's such an interestingstory before then that we put up
with it with this bomb under thetable that the monster is
coming.
The monster is coming.
So it just juices the tension ofan ordinary dramatic movie.
SPEAKER_02 (30:34):
Yeah, that's super interesting.
And it sounds like uh Slowburnis probably harder to pull off
because you don't have suchliteral life and death stakes
the whole time.
And it's almost like, how do youplay on that danger scale
without going all the way likefull volume to life and death?
Um, but that's great to knowbecause I know a lot of writers
will be like, well, you know, Iam writing something more like
(30:55):
that.
And then they feel like they'rejust not gonna write a horror
story that works because you'regiving them options of their
spectrum.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
I think you bring up a great point.
Normally, I'm a script coachmyself and a story coach and
things like that.
Normally, I'd scare people offfrom going in the direction of
the slow burn kind of stuff.
I almost want them to do thehero goal obstacle stakes ones
because a lot of times peoplethink they're doing the hero
goal obstacle stakes ones andthey unintentionally go in this
(31:24):
direction.
SPEAKER_01 (31:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
The only reason, and honestly, if you know me, I'm
up, I'm like hero goal obstaclestakes.
And most of my notes are like,you're not doing, you know, if
you clear that up, you'll have alot easier path with agents,
producers, things like that.
The rest, you'll be noted todeath if you don't do it, right?
But I have to say that just as afan of horror, it would be
(31:46):
disingenuous of me to kind ofsay that's the only way to do
it.
Because at least half of themovies we watch are are slow
burns, uh, half of the horror orread for sure.
Um, and so I kind of had to say,and that that's why I think
writing a save the cap book isimportant for that.
I kind of had to say, here's howyou can incorporate the two
(32:06):
things into the into the onething.
SPEAKER_02 (32:09):
Yeah, especially as we get to you know blending
genres more and things likethat.
Like we're always coming up withnew ways to do things.
So it's nice to know we haveoptions.
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Yes.
I love that.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (32:19):
Okay, so I want to talk, if we can, a little bit
about characters because one ofthe things I see a lot in the
horror manuscripts I edit isthat there will be a super
passive protagonist that is justkind of reacting and reacting to
the horror or the monster or theweird things happening.
Can you talk about that a littlebit?
SPEAKER_00 (32:37):
Yeah, yeah.
So my big trick for this, andit's almost not even character
driven, but to kind of tweak it,is it's the goal, it's the goal
issue a lot of times.
Um, it's it's the goal.
And my big thing that I I have alist of in the book, because I
think this can solve thatproblem if you're having that
problem, is sub goals.
Um, and I I think especiallywhen you get in the funny game
(32:59):
section of like a relentlesshorror movie, yeah.
It's very easy to just kind ofcower or run away, or you know,
but or even hunker down.
But I do think you almost haveto turn it into mini stories
that are related to the subgoals.
It's almost like a video gamewhere you go on these little
missions based on the big thing.
And I have a again, I have a biglist of things that can help you
(33:22):
brainstorm these, but they couldbe anything from like tool
acquisition, you know.
We need the we need the shotgunor we need the the shovel or we
something like that.
Um, solving a mystery, thatcould be a thing.
Um, getting medical attention,calling for help.
You know, a lot of these arevery obvious, but I have a big
list of obvious ones if you needhelp with that.
(33:43):
Yeah, but I think coming up withthese mini stories that kind of
cycle through that all are inservice of the bigger story of
survival.
Um, that's the key to kind ofmaking your protagonist active.
And and you know, if yourprotagonist is inactive, if
they're the type of personthat's a slacker or something
(34:03):
like that, um I always go backto a story like Sh uh Shrek.
I don't know why I'm doing allthe kids' movies today.
Shrek is always my example whenI talk about this.
Like Shrek just wants to be leftalone.
Shrek's kind of a passivecharacter.
So the object with that is theyturn the heat up on Shrek so
much that the only way he can beleft alone again, the only way
(34:25):
he can fight to get back tostatus quo is to take lots of
action.
Yeah, and and and be verydetermined.
And that's always my thing withwith heroes, even passive
heroes, is you just got to lightthe heat.
That's where you have to raisethe stakes on them a little bit.
So they're forced to to have subgoals, like their hiding spot
isn't gonna last.
Um, all the all these kind ofthings.
(34:46):
Somebody's hurt.
Um, somebody needs to get theword out.
There's a ticking clock, likelike, you know, the police car
is on the hill and they'relooking around, and we only have
a couple minutes to alert themto the, you know, we're trapped
down here.
Um, you have to give the and ifyou can come up with those sub
goals, usually you can weave inand out of things.
(35:07):
Um, and it keeps things fromgetting redundant as well.
SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
Yeah.
And I like um speaking of goals,you were saying earlier when we
talked about the setup, howthere needs to be something
going on that the horror or themonster can get in the way of.
So Shrek is a great example of,you know, kind of like the most
passive example you can pick.
He has a life going on, and mostof us will.
And so when, you know, themonster comes in, we already
have existing goals that aregoing to compete with that
(35:32):
survival or whatever until theycan't.
So we just gotta keep that inmind too.
SPEAKER_00 (35:36):
That's great.
SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
Um, okay, so I have two more, two more questions for
you.
One of them is about you talkabout dread, scares, and gross
outs.
And that was one of my favoriteparts of the book.
Can you just describe like thatsection for us real quick?
SPEAKER_00 (35:49):
Yeah, it's and honestly, I'm I love that you
like that section because it'sit's probably the section that
made me write the book.
It was like the it was like onceI had that, I was like, I need
to write this book because Iwant to get this part out.
SPEAKER_01 (36:01):
Yeah, I loved it.
SPEAKER_00 (36:02):
And and it's a lot of it, I have to give credit.
Stephen King, I think in hisbook Dance Macabre, that I read
when I was like 10 years old.
Like so, I was already thinkingwriting horror back then.
Um, he he had, and I I kind ofparaphrased it.
Um, he he called them differentthings, and I never liked the
things he called them, so I kindof changed them to my own.
(36:24):
So um, Dread scares gross outs.
Um, and you can look up theoriginal, it's like terror or
something, and something terrornever computed well.
I wasn't really sure what terrorwas versus so that's a big word
that covers a lot, right?
It covers a lot, and I couldnever really compute it.
So um first we'll start with thetwo most obvious ones scares.
(36:45):
Scares are moments where ummonsters attack, uh, something
something really horriblehappens.
There's some kind of usuallyusually physical element to it.
Um, it's less in your mind, youknow, the wherewithal change,
like ah, my arm turns into thewerewolf or something.
SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Very literal.
SPEAKER_00 (37:04):
It's very literal.
Um, it's shocking, it comes outof nowhere, and it actually, you
know, should get people's heartspumping and and scare them in
some way.
It's and it it's so that'sscares.
Gross outs, I I think you canimagine what they are.
Um, and they're kind of a aspecial case of of scares in
some ways.
Um and I go into all kinds ofthings like figuring out scares
(37:27):
and all that and gross outs andstuff.
But I'm gonna go back to myfavorite one, which is dread.
Um, because much like I said thesin was the big differentiating
point in my own horror writing,when I kind of figured out what
dread was, that was the bigdifferentiator.
And when I read, and I read alot of horror writers because of
I'm a horror writer, um, when Iread them, a lot of times that's
(37:50):
what's missing because you cannever have enough of it.
Um, I have a whole nother thingin my other books called a
rooting resume.
And dread and rooting resumeseem similar.
Rooting resume is kind of thesave the cat of it.
That's like, why do we careabout this character?
Why do we I feel like you canpile that on in the first 10
pages?
I feel like in a horror script,you could pile dread on by
(38:11):
dozens and dozens of examples.
Like every you could just likeevery page can have little
pieces of dread.
And what I discovered recently,and this is the reason I almost
wanted to write the book.
Like, once I had this, I waslike, I have all these other
things.
And now this is really cool, andI've never heard anybody say
this.
I was watching the movieBarbarian, and there was an
interview with the director, andhe said he was reading a book
(38:34):
about red flags, like on dates,and he stacked those into the
beginning of his movie, redflags, and it popped in my head,
that's dread.
And I so I called him dreadflags because I love a good, I
love a good pun.
Yeah, I love it.
Dread flags, dread is reallyjust red flags to the audience
(38:54):
or to the hero.
Sometimes the hero misses them,like sometimes the hero doesn't
notice the uh I don't know, theopen door behind them or
something like that.
Dread is just red flag after redflag after red flag that
something's not right and leadsthe audience to um to worry, and
and you can just stack theselike on and it could be
(39:16):
everything from bad weather,like we see the storm start.
Yeah, that's a dread flag.
That's the we're like, uh oh,the storm's starting, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (39:23):
What's or there's like a murder of crows in your
front yard.
SPEAKER_00 (39:26):
There's a murder of crows in the front yard, and
they could they could be reallysubtle things like uh a piece of
rotting fruit.
Well, I guess that's not verysubtle, but I mean they can be
some person acting in a creepyway to you or something.
I love that.
Yeah, so that my my favoritething in the book, or one of my
favorite things to tell writersabout is dread flags.
(39:46):
Stack red flags that maybe thehero sees or maybe they don't.
Usually it's a mix of both.
Usually they see some, theydon't see some, but the audience
sees them, and the audience islike, uh-oh, they're not
realizing that storms are bad orflickering, flickering lights
aren't good, where that creepydecoration in the haunted house
(40:06):
hall isn't a good thing, youknow.
Yeah, they're the they're dreadflags, and um yeah, so anyway,
that I think you can somebodylistening to that can take that
away and run with it withouteven buying the book.
Yeah.
And um, and and use it to greatuse in their own stories.
SPEAKER_02 (40:23):
I feel like what a fun way to be creative with
that, too.
You know, like that's whatreaders like, that's probably
what the authors will have funwith.
So I love that part.
That was my favorite part of thewhole book.
SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
It's my biggest list, too, because once I get
started on that, I'm like, oh,there's so many.
And it's a big, it's a big list.
And I didn't even get to, youknow, probably three, four, five
is coming soon.
I could I'll I I'll have towrite a whole book of just some
dread flags.
SPEAKER_02 (40:46):
Yeah, love it.
Okay.
Well, the last question I havefor you is about um how and when
we show our monsters, because Iknow, well, not really how and
when, but I guess how much ofour monster we show.
Because one of the things I seea lot in drafts is
over-explaining, over focusingon details instead of leaving
things up to our imagination.
(41:06):
Um, and you talk about in thebook how our imaginations are
going to make things way morescary than any detail you can
add.
How do we know where the line isbetween too much and too little?
SPEAKER_00 (41:16):
It's a great question.
It's a it's a tricky forscreenwriters, it's a tricky
question.
Yeah.
Because when I'm in production,directors like to leave a lot
out.
Producers hate to leave anythingout, and they like to tell the
whole story.
So there's usually this powerstruggle between the two.
But I'll tell you, any any umhorror or artist is on the side
(41:37):
of leading leaving as much outas possible, you know.
As leaving, I I always describeit, let's say the things in the
shadows.
You don't want to completelyhave it be in the shadows.
I work a lot with the guy whodirected and wrote Blair Witch
Project, the Blair WitchProject.
They left everything in theshadows in that.
That was kind of all messed upto interpretation.
I always feel like the monstersin the shadow in your book, give
(42:01):
give the reader a flickeringflashlight.
Give the reader that flickeringflashlight, give them little
glimpses.
And I actually, in my monstersection, I actually
differentiate um kind ofbackstory from what I call what
I'm calling in the book lore.
And I think lore is what youkind of tell your audience.
It's kind of like maybe we knowa little bit, but we don't know
(42:24):
the actual like how the monsterwas born and who its mother was
or something like that.
We we might know the ghost storythat was told because the
monster showed up, and we mightlearn that or get glimpses of
it.
But that's basically what youwant.
You want to give those littleglimpses.
Um, and it depends on the story,obviously.
Like if it's a story likeScream, that's almost like a
(42:45):
murder mystery in some ways, andyou're gonna tell the whole
thing.
But if it is a story like theBlair Witch Project, the fun is
actually in almost like thatthat lore, that that that
cryptid style, like ghost storykind of telling of what it is.
Yeah.
You want to give a I always feellike you want to give a little
more than that, but not too muchmore.
(43:06):
Like you want to give just alittle bit more.
Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:10):
Like you said, the lore and the little flashes is
way scarier because ourimaginations will take it and
run with it.
But I feel I see a lot ofwriters who are super concerned
about the details of like, dothey have fur, do they have
skin?
Do and it's like we don't needto know that as much as how it's
affecting the characters and thestory and things like that.
SPEAKER_00 (43:27):
I I think for better or worse, this is this is where
like notes can hurt you a littlebit.
Because if you if you get enoughnotes, somebody's gonna say, I'd
like to know more about themonster, and then you're gonna
be like, and that's the that's awhole nother podcast.
Yeah.
But you know, I think that'swhere some writers get a little
messy and they have to be alittle, but I think if you have
(43:50):
intent for these things likeslow burn or hiding things in
the shadow, and you you really,really understand why you're
doing it, that's the key, right?
Yeah, it's like if you know whyyou're doing it, if it's not an
accident, no, it's different ifsomebody says, I'd like to know
more about the monster, andyou're like, What?
They didn't understand my wholebackstory, then maybe you need
(44:10):
to show more about the monster.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:12):
But you know, if you have intent, sometimes it's good
when you get the note, I'd liketo know more about the monster.
Sometimes that's where you wantto.
Like, yeah, yeah, I know you do.
That's like that's my point.
That's my point.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:24):
Yeah.
Well, you have so much morestuff on monsters, and I part of
me wanted to go into likemonster backstory and all that
because that was fascinatingtoo.
But we'll leave that to the bookas well.
Uh, so any last parting words ofwisdom for horror writers?
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
Oh wow, I I think I said all the cool stuff.
I should have I should havesaved something in reverse.
Um, the you know, the only otherthing that I'll say that's also
in the book is um tone can be atricky thing with um horror
writers.
Um, and a little trick I have inthat in that regard is I come up
with I what I call a tonameterbefore I start my projects.
(45:00):
And a tonameter, I I literallylet's say it's a zombie story
I'm telling.
I say, what tone is my movie ornovel most like?
And then I'll make a list ofgoofy, you know, I'll start
redneck zombies might be numberone on the goofy list, and maybe
something like 28 days later,I'll be most more like seven,
eight, or nine on my scale ofone to ten.
(45:21):
And I try to figure out where myscale is.
SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:24):
And when in doubt, I ask myself, would this fit at
number six?
Or have I gone to number two orthree or four?
And um, because I think that'stone is really important to keep
a consistent tone in a horrormovie.
And again, if you have theintention of jumping the toads
somewhere around the midpoint,like they think this is a
serious thing, but I'm gonna go,you know, wild and crazy around
(45:46):
the midpoint.
I mean, that might beunderstandable, but most things
need to keep that constant tone.
SPEAKER_02 (45:52):
I actually love that part of the book too.
And I kept thinking, how would Irank this the same?
How would I do it differently?
So I think it's cool that we cankind of do it subjectively as
well and say, where does ourstory fit on this scale?
SPEAKER_00 (46:02):
It gives you a guide.
And it's it's fun to make thetone chart.
SPEAKER_02 (46:06):
Totally.
I know I was looking at thatpart a lot.
So anyway, we will put the linkto your new book in the show
notes.
We'll put the link to where tofind you around the internet and
everything.
But thank you so much for comingon the show today.
SPEAKER_00 (46:17):
Thank you.
This was a great time, greatconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (46:21):
All right, so that's it for this episode of the
Fiction Writing Made EasyPodcast.
Head over to savannagilbo.comforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
specific writing stage, whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
(46:42):
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannagilbo.com forward slashquiz.
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Last but not least, make sure tofollow this podcast in your
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(47:02):
another episode full ofactionable tips, tools, and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
All horror at some point devolves into a battle for
survival.
If the battle for survival nevercomes about, maybe it's not
horror.
And that battle for survival, itdoesn't necessarily have to be
whether you live or die.
It could be your identity istaken away or something like
that.
It's something primal, though.
It's not metaphorical.
(00:20):
It's not like, and then I lostmyself to marriage or something.
You know, it's it's definitelysomething primal.
But I think all horror by theend of it becomes a battle for
survival.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy
Podcast.
My name is Savannah Gilbo, andI'm here to help you write a
story that works.
I want to prove to you thatwriting a novel doesn't have to
be overwhelming.
So each week I'll bring you abrand new episode with simple,
actionable, and step-by-stepstrategies that you can
implement in your writing rightaway.
So whether you're brand new towriting or more of a seasoned
(00:54):
author looking to improve yourcraft, this podcast is for you.
So pick up a pen and let's getstarted.
In today's episode, we're divinginto what it takes to write a
horror story that truly works.
And I couldn't be more excitedto have Jamie Nash joining me
today.
Jamie is a seasonedscreenwriter, novelist, and the
author of the brand new bookSave the Cat Writes Horror,
(01:15):
which honestly I am completelyobsessed with.
In this episode, Jamie breaksdown the three key ingredients
every horror story needs, howthe Save the Cat beats show up
in the horror genre, and mypersonal favorite, how to figure
out where your story lands, onwhat Jamie calls the
dreadometer.
It's such a fun and fascinatingconcept, and I can't wait for
you to hear all about it.
So without further ado, let'sdive right into my conversation
(01:38):
with Jamie Nash.
SPEAKER_00 (01:40):
So, you know, at heart, I'm a screenwriter.
That's that's really what I am.
And I mostly have written horrorscreenplays.
Um I've I've written a couplehorror novels as well.
Uh, but for the most part, Iwrite horror screenplays.
But early in my career, when Iactually wanted to be a comedy
screenwriter, I I actually metBlake Snyder, the original
(02:01):
writer of Save the Cat.
And uh he and I co-wrote acouple of scripts way back then
when I was when I was firststarting in screenwriting.
How fun.
And yeah, and he kind of in myearly in my career, he kind of
indoctrinated me into the savethe cat world.
And uh I've been using it eversince.
So um, so that's how I kind ofcame to write Save the Cat
(02:22):
Writes Horror.
And I've also written two otherSave the Cat books before this.
Uh Save the Cat Writes for TVand um the Save the Cat Beat
Sheet workbook.
SPEAKER_02 (02:32):
Awesome.
We'll link to all that in theshow notes.
But so I was gonna ask you whyyou decided to do the horror
book, and it makes so much sensebecause horror is your realm.
SPEAKER_00 (02:40):
Yeah, definitely.
Um, when I was a kid, I saw I Iguess I was a little kid.
I grew up, I'm an 80s kid, butwhen I was a little kid, it was
the 70s, and um, I saw somemovies I shouldn't have seen at
a very early age, like TheExorcist, Halloween.
Like I saw all those moviesbefore I was 10, you know.
(03:01):
So um, and then in the 80s,there was such a popular I was a
movie kid.
I like all movies.
Uh, you know, I saw Jaws andRaiders of the Lost Ark and Star
Wars and all the things everykid loved in the 80s.
Right now I'm wearing a Goonieshirt, so that kind of tells you
where I'm at.
Um, but there were so manyhorror movies that for every
(03:23):
blockbuster movie, I'd say wesaw one horror movie, you know,
Nightmare on Elm Street, a Jasonmovie, um, something like
Serpent and the Rainbow, or Idon't know, there was always
something going on.
And as kids, we just, you know,whether it was on the VCR or
actually going to the theater,we saw horror movies every week.
(03:43):
So, you know, I I saw maybethousands of horror movies work
before I, you know, even startedto think about writing them.
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
I love that.
So let's go to the verybeginning and let's talk about
what it actually means to writea horror story or how do we
define stories that fit in thisgenre, or as Save the Cat calls
it, the monster in the housegenre.
SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
Yeah, and it's it's a tricky thing to to actually
define it.
And there's been a lot of onlinedebates in recent years,
especially as horror has gotteninto more what when I pitch to
producers, they call elevatedhorror horror.
And elevated is this new termthey bounce around a lot in the
movie world, where it's kind oflike it's kind of this weird
(04:25):
elitist term, like it's betterthan that old horror stuff you
used to watch.
You know, this is this issomething better.
And and get out kind of kickedoff that the movie Get Out with
Jordan Peel.
Um, by the by the way, I shouldsay my book is for novelists as
well.
And much like you, my love ofhorror actually started probably
more in the in reading, evenmore so than the movies.
(04:48):
Because while the movies, myfavorite movies were like
Goonies.
If you look at my bookshelf,it's all by Barker and Stephen
King and Dean Arkunts and allthese other authors that I loved
when I was a kid.
And and those to me were allelevated horror.
I mean, they all were telling,in, in my opinion, dramatic
stories.
It's it's something I mentionedin the book that Jason Blum once
(05:10):
said, what's the indie drama,the kind of Oscar-winning indie
drama that gets interrupted bythe monster?
And you kind of have to figurethat part out if you want to
write quote unquote elevatedhorror.
And the books I was reading as akid did that all the time.
Um, but then the questionbecomes if it's more shifting
toward that indie drama and lessthe monster, is it a horror
(05:33):
movie or is it something else?
My personal conclusion, my my Ihave two hot takes.
Uh number one is I think allhorror at some point devolves
into a battle for survival.
If the battle for survival nevercomes about, maybe it's not
horror.
And that battle for survivor,survival, it doesn't necessarily
(05:56):
have to be whether you live ordie.
It could be your identity istaken away or something like
that.
I it's something primal, though.
It's not metaphorical, it's notlike, and then I lost myself to
marriage or something.
You know, it's it's definitelysomething primal.
But I think all horror by theend of it, by act three, becomes
a battle for survival.
(06:16):
And then you're just kind of thequestion is when does it become
a battle?
But then the the other thingthat Save the Cat illustrates is
there's this thing called themonster in the house.
And um, the monster in thehouse, there's there's these
things in the original Save theCat book that I learned about as
an early screenwriter.
Um, there were these 10 genresin Save the Cat.
(06:38):
That won't go through all ofthem, but just to give you an
idea, his genres were storypatterns.
They weren't genres like when Iwent into Blockbuster video and
it was comedy and romance andthings like that.
Instead, they were more likewhat type of story are you
telling?
And his were like golden fleece,which would be the hunt for a
trophy or a treasure, or maybe aroad trip with a destination.
(07:00):
That was the golden fleece.
And then he'd have Buddy Love,which could be romance, or it
could be a story like E orsomething, you know, where
Elliot and E.T.
Bond or Black Stallion, even, isa Buddy Love story.
And he came up with 10 of these.
And I'll be honest, of all thesave the cat things, I remember
when I first read it, I'm like,yeah, he's got 10, but I bet you
I can think of some more ofthese.
(07:21):
I bet you, I bet you, and Iafter all these years, I've
never once had a really good,oh, here's the one he missed.
Um, he really he really did agreat job with those 10.
But the one I dabbled in most isthe monster in the house genre.
And the monster in the housegenre is defined by three
specific elements.
There's a monster, and thatcould be supernatural or or
(07:44):
someone just so evil or sorelentless that they almost
border on supernatural.
So you're, you know, like aMichael Myers or Jason or
something, even though I knowthe later movies, those
characters became supernatural,but yeah, uh something like
that.
Um, but also, you know, FreddieKrueger or the monsters in a
quiet place, or or or thecreatures in the centers.
(08:05):
I I said creatures because Ididn't want to spoil it.
Um so any of those could be themonsters.
The house is the next the nextpoint.
And that the way the thing Idoubled down on the house after
my years of writing horrorstories, the key thing to figure
out in your house is why is thathouse a trap?
Why can't people just leave?
(08:27):
You know, um, I I actually wastalking to someone about this
the other day, and they saidthat's their problem with
stranger things.
Why don't they just move awayfrom the town?
You know, at season three.
Um, but what is the trap?
How is how are they trapped inthe house?
And there's the book actuallylists many ways you can trap
people from being a remotelocation to kind of going
(08:47):
somewhere illegal, you're notsupposed to go, or or even it
could be your own body, like ina case of the substance or a
movie like that, or the fly oror a werewolf movie.
And the most the one that Ilearned from the most early on
as a young horror writer, and Idon't think I was including, and
I think this is the one thatelevates horror is the sin.
(09:08):
Um, the sin is something thatbrings about the monster that
makes us vulnerable to themonster.
And it doesn't have to be yourhero, it could be society, like
in Godzilla, nuclear war bringsabout the monster or something
like that.
But I do think that's the part,the key to elevating your horror
is choosing the right sin, whichwhich leads to something Josh
(09:31):
Whedon used to say in the Buffyuniverse.
Um, monster is metaphor.
What you know, what is themetaphor of your monster?
So between the battle forsurvival and the monster in the
house, like I kind of smooshthose two together.
And what I ultimately say isevery story, every horror story
devolves into a monster in thehouse story at some point.
(09:53):
It may start out as a goldenfleece or bloody love, but by
act three, there's a monster,there's a house, and there's a
sin, and there's a battle forsurvival.
SPEAKER_02 (10:02):
I have so much I want to say about that.
So, in the book, for um anyonewho's writing kind of a blended
story, you do talk about thissetup could look like where you
have horror elements, but if youdon't have that survival or
those survival stakes and youdon't have the monster in the
house, then it could just belike on the other side of the
spectrum of horror.
And you also talk aboutrelentless horror and slow burn,
(10:22):
which we'll get into in asecond.
Um, but on these three things,so let's just recap them really
quick.
Number one is the monster, whichI want to dive into later.
And then the second is thehouse, which doesn't have to be
a literal house.
It can be just any kind ofclaustrophobic, isolated
setting.
And I would love to hear youtalk about that a little more
because I think a lot of writerswill check the box.
(10:43):
Like I have this isolated umpsychiatric ward or whatever.
And it's like, think about why.
Think about why we want themtrapped, right?
Why do we want it isolate?
Why do we want itclaustrophobic?
Can you talk about that a littlemore?
SPEAKER_00 (10:55):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, and I I think the big thingis you have to take away their
free will.
Like that's that's what I alwayssay.
It comes down to free will.
Because if any time at any timethey can they can check out of
it or they can leave, then thetension just goes away.
It's like that in in fact, itcan turn you against your heroes
(11:16):
because it almost they almostdeserve it, you know, at that
point.
It's like they know evil'sthere, they know there's a
monster, they're not runningaway, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
They're not using logic.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
They they almost deserve what they get at that
point.
Um, and there's all kinds likein the book.
I I come I usually give lists tohelp you brainstorm, you know,
so you don't just go to thedefault, like, oh, I need a
house.
And you know, there's a movielike that I saw last year,
Abigail, and the doors lock, andthey're you know, they're
(11:46):
trapped, they're trying to getout.
They're like, oh no, I can't getout.
Um, there are other movies likeRosemary's Baby, where it's like
more societal, you know, it'slike she's trapped in a
different way.
It's it's she she's trappedbecause of her social situation.
Yeah, um, she's she's beinggaslit and almost being trapped.
Then there's other movies likeThe Walking Dead that they're
(12:07):
trapped because where could yougo?
I mean, the whole world is ismonsters.
Um, right.
So I have lists to help peoplebrainstorm those if they want
to.
And I tend to go overboard withthe list because much like much
like Blake Snyder's 10 genres, Iwant to make sure I hit most of
them.
In this case, I miss, I'm sure Imiss more than he he ever had.
But I have a lot.
SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
There are, yeah, there are so many.
And I know readers are gonnalove that because I even as I
was reading it yesterday, I'mlike, I could use this in my
fantasy novel.
So I appreciate the lists.
Um, but yeah, so I think you'reright.
Um, and I just want to reiteratewhat you said for listeners that
keeping them kind of in thishouse or in this claustrophobic
isolated setting, uh, it justyou know helps us evoke those,
(12:47):
that sense of fear.
It also helps raise the stakestoo, because you can only have
you only have so many things towork with in that isolated
setting.
And as people die or things gettaken away, or you what a great
way to raise the stakes.
Okay, so we had the monster ofthe house and then the sin.
So the sin you said was one ofyour biggest learnings.
And um, how does that or does itconnect with the monster?
(13:09):
And how does that kind of stuffrelate to theme or does it
relate to theme?
SPEAKER_00 (13:13):
Yes.
And this is this is my, youknow, uh again, it was the
biggest thing I learned becauseI think when I was writing
before I started to use the sin,maybe I'd stumble into the sin,
or the theme might be aboutsomething different.
But it was when I startedstarted to add this into the
mix, I believe my horror reallytook off um and got a lot
better.
(13:33):
And my first sale, my firstscreenplay sale was a horror
script.
Um, and uh it in in that in thatone, so I'll tell you a little
bit about one that one, it wascalled Altered, and it was it
was originally a horror comedyabout I always say it's it was
rednecks who abduct an alien.
Like that's what the story wasabout.
Yeah.
But and and deep down though, itwas kind of a story about these
(13:56):
kind of brothers in a sense.
And it became a drama.
Like originally it was a horrorcomedy, it became a drama.
And once I nailed down that itwas really about brothers who
had this deep secret, this kindof shame from the past, um, they
were abused in some ways byaliens, and in revenge, they
abduct an alien because theywant answers and they want
understanding, and that's whatelevated it and actually got it
(14:19):
sold.
Um so it was actually once Idiscovered this kind of
metaphor, um, it was key.
So um, so back to your question,like the sin usually brings
about the horror.
So the the example I tend to go,because again, 80s kids,
Spielberg, was poltergeist.
Um, if you remember poltergeist,the the reason the ghost is
(14:40):
there is because they builthouses on top of a graveyard.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:44):
And there's this big scene where they say, you know,
they took away the markers andthey and they just built the
houses.
And it's this kind of what'swhat's the word?
Desecration, blasphemy, whateveryou want to say it is, this kind
of ignorance of of that, andjust kind of for greed purposes.
Similarly with Alien, it's allabout greed.
Like if you're watching AlienEarth Earth right now, it's all
(15:07):
about greed, right?
It's always it's alwayscorporate greed.
Um, I I think in the lastepisode there was a there was a
comment.
This is a place of yes, not aplace of no.
Like you never say no here, youknow.
We always push forward, we movefast and break things.
And that's kind of the sin inthat that brings about the
monster because they're they'repushing boundaries into these
(15:28):
danger zones, yeah.
Um, and you know, recklessly.
Um, and so the other big thing Ilike to talk about with the sin
is you know, you said, is ityour theme?
Is it not?
Oftentimes it is your theme.
Oftentimes the hero needs tolearn some version of that, you
know, and it's this is wherethemes can get tricky because I
(15:51):
always feel like in most of mystories, there's this personal
theme that's very personal.
Like I need to learn to um payas much attention to my kids as
I do my job or whatever.
That's the common one.
I I do a lot of kids' moviestoo, right?
Um, but I always feel that thattheme relates to some bigger
(16:11):
macro theme that maybe if thereis a big villain or politics
involved or something, the worldneeds to learn.
There's some version of it thatkind of connects the dots.
Um, but what I always say isyour hero does not have to
commit the sin to invoke themonster.
There is there is this weirdkarmic math that happens in
(16:34):
horror movies where as long assomebody commits a sin, we
understand that somebody has topay the price.
SPEAKER_02 (16:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
And um, there's a math in horror, and that's why
the sin is there.
So it's not pure nihilism.
At the end of the day, much likethe EC comics I read as a kid,
there's a moral to most of thesestories.
And even if somebody who doesn'tdeserve to die dies in the end
and there's a dark ending, wecan kind of walk away agreeing
that the sin brought about thething.
(17:04):
And it's sort of a happy endingto us because we go off with the
lesson that as long as we don'tcommit that sin, or as long as
we fight not to have that sincommitted, we'll have a happy
ending.
We'll be okay.
So, in some ways, horror isn'tas dark as some people.
I mean, it's a dark way to tellthat theme, you know, but it's
(17:24):
not sometimes horror can benihilistic.
SPEAKER_02 (17:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
They tend to not be the most popular horror movies.
The the more popular ones tendto be the elevated ones with the
message and the sin that we canunderstand and kind of end with
that karmic equation intact.
SPEAKER_02 (17:40):
Yeah, I like what you're saying about all that
too, because writers will ask mea lot, or I'll hear a lot
sometimes that it's, you know,they really want to write horror
or they really want to writesci-fi or something, but they're
like, I don't know if that'smeaningful enough.
And I'm like, it can be someaningful.
Are you kidding me?
Every genre can be meaningful.
So I love how you're kind ofputting those pieces together.
And you go into way more detailabout that in the book.
(18:00):
Um, so if anyone's interested,you can grab that.
We'll link to it in the shownotes.
Um, but also the other thing youexplore a lot is the horror
beats and how those the save thecat beats show up differently.
And I know that a lot of myaudience has uh Jessica's Save
the Cat writes a novel book.
So they're used to the beats.
Um, but is there like talk aboutthat a little bit?
Because if we're going back tothe horror, like what makes
(18:23):
horror, it's about survival witha monster in a house with a sin.
So talk about kind of how thatshows up in the beats a little
bit.
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
Yeah, yeah.
So what I do in the book too,and the book, if you haven't
read Save the Cat, I do enoughof an overview that it's there.
I think it works best almost ifyou've read read the first one
and read this one, but you don'thave to.
Um, and what I did was I I kindof pointed out some specific
beats that needed a littleflashlight shined on them, yeah,
(18:53):
for lack of a better term, uh,for horror.
And um there's a couple of them.
So number one, I think is theopening scare.
Um, the the opening scare, mostof the time in horror movies,
and it happens in horror novelstoo, especially when you're
submitting to agents and thingslike that.
You want that, you want to showthem you can write horror.
(19:13):
So if you're sending your firstchapter, you kind of want a
horror beat in there, right?
Yeah, but but there's differentways that the opening scare can
happen.
And so I again I list a bunch ofcommon ways.
And uh one is like the firstkill.
Like that's a very common traitis people show the first kill.
That's like one of the mostcommon.
Recently, I've seen a lot offlash forwards.
(19:35):
Like, here's page, you know, ina in a screenplay, here's page
50, or here's page 75.
Sinners did this recently.
Here's the end of the movie.
Let's show you how we got here.
And it can it can kind of giveyou that little horror juice
early in the story.
I I know in novels, not aspopular, but sometimes the
prologue, you know, the originof the horror, like how the
(19:56):
horror came about.
That can be another popular one.
Um, the one I see in a lot ofmovies these days, especially
the indie drama movies, and oneI use a lot too, is what one I
call, and this is the one Iactually wanted to say on your
podcast, the horror the horrorbefore the horror.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that one, if you've everseen the movie like Midsummer,
(20:16):
or um, I'm trying to think ofanother movie that did it.
Have you ever saw uh FindingNemo?
Uh Finding Nemo kind of does thehorror before the horror.
Um, so I'll I'm gonna useFinding Nemo, even though not a
monster now, but I'm gonna usethat as an example.
In in the beginning of that, itshows you kind of the shard of
glass, they call it the traumathat the main character
(20:38):
experiences, that the characterarc and the theme is all about.
And it's a horrific moment.
So you can write a little horrorbeat.
And that story, I think, doesn'tsomething come and eat all the
eggs or something.
I think that's what happens atthe beginning.
So that's why he's so um, andalso I think his wife dies as
well.
Um, so that's why Marlon, well,it's pretty dark for him.
(20:59):
That's why Marlon is so obsessedwith keeping Nemo safe.
SPEAKER_01 (21:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
Um, and in a lot of a lot of stories have that
horror before the horror.
I it's funny, a lot of them havecar crashes before, you know.
I could think of Megan, I couldthink of the descent, not not a
horror movie, but Disturbia.
You know, I can think of allthese movies that have car
crashes that are the trauma thathappens well before the story
starts.
So that's the opening scare.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
Are we is that like in Jaws, how the shark attacks
first, and then we go to likethe catalyst, or is that
different?
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
So that's a good question.
Uh so and that's my that'sthat's another one I bring up.
So in that one, the shark attackis the first kill.
That's the opening scare.
And then they have the save thecat beat of the setup, which is
the ordinary world of the hero.
So that's him, life at home.
And my key thing with the, andthis is less save the cat writes
(21:51):
for her, or more save the cat.
My key thing with setups are uhhave a story before the story.
Like what's what's the storyagain, the indie drama that gets
interrupted by the monster?
Yeah, so he's already trying tofit in and stuff like that.
But then this is this is a finepoint.
The catalyst, which is the firstkind of hit, usually happens in
(22:13):
a movie around the 12-minutemark.
I think Jessica says in a novel,the 10% mark of your of your
story, um, page count-wise.
The key thing with that is thecatalyst always involves your
hero.
So so think of it this way: let's say the first kill (22:26):
undefined
happened, the sheriff was nevercalled in, or they never found
the body.
Um, but the what happens at thecatalyst of Jaws is he finds the
body.
He's called out to checksomething out and he finds it.
That's why that's the catalystand not the opening scare.
Um, so the 12-minute mark or the10% mark always should involve
(22:50):
your hero.
So that's another like twist onthe save the cat beats um that I
put in.
So there are two examples.
I have a lot more.
I kind of go into midpoints andhow they can be different.
I have a thing called thefive-point final stand because,
like I said, all things turninto a battle for survival.
Um, and the and and uh, youknow, I have a bunch, I have a
(23:11):
bunch more I'll leave for thebook, but um, but they're
there's some of the you knowearly ones that that I can hit
from.
SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
Yeah, and so if you if you're listening and you like
Save the Cat and you want to golike even deeper into the weeds
of horror, that's what Jamie'sbook will help you do.
But I love that um, I love themention of what an opening scene
horror because you're right, wehave to get that flavor and tone
kind of there.
And also then when we go intothe setup, it's like we need to
know that what kind of storywe're in so that we don't just
(23:38):
start in like a small towndrama.
We need to know it's horror.
Um, and then we have thecatalyst that happens to the
hero to pull them through therest of the book.
So I love that.
And we'll put the link to thebook again so you guys listening
can go check it out.
Um, do you want to talk aboutyou mentioned in the book like
slow burn horror versusrelentless horror?
I think that's super cool.
Can you explain that?
SPEAKER_00 (23:59):
Yeah, sure.
And it's kind of the reason whyI held off on some of my beats
because I I'll talk about mybeats more when we talk about
this.
And I knew you're I knew youwere gonna ask.
So um, so yeah, slow burn versusrelentless horror.
Um, and they're just two, Imean, people talk about slow
burn all the time.
I think I just made up the termrelentless, uh, just to just to
(24:19):
kind of make sense.
And I'll describe relentlessfirst, because if you ever
follow my save the cat stuff,um, there's like a YouTube link
that gives a I give a very gooddescription of my view of the
save the cat model and how I Iview it as kind of a hero-driven
model.
Um maybe, maybe I could share itwith you uh for listen for
(24:40):
listeners.
Um, and it's like a two-hourlecture.
But if you ever listen to that,and I I'm not as strict as Blake
Snyder.
Blake Snyder, Jessica, they getthey get dinged a little bit by
people like that's not true.
It's not I I I always say savethe cats a strategy and a
really, really good one thatworks 90% of the time, but you
can play with it sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (25:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
So why am I saying this?
Because relentless horror is theversion that Jessica and Blake
would say is the thing you want.
They they would point to thatand say, so it usually comes
down to the fact that whenyou're coming up with a log
line, there's a thing calledstory DNA.
And I'm a big proponent of this.
Who's your hero?
(25:22):
What's their goal?
What's the obstacle?
What's the stakes, right?
And in in a story like like Ialways use Raiders of the Lost
Ark.
You can see I'm a Spielberg kid.
Um, Indiana Jones has to findthe lost arc, there's Nazis in
the way.
If he doesn't get the lost arc,they'll use the arc to win the
war.
Hero goal, obstacle stakes.
(25:43):
The goal is very specific and asa finish line, you can almost
see.
You could see him collecting thething.
So in relentless horror, thoseare clearly defined.
Um, so in a movie like I'll sayScream, um, Sydney must figure
out who the killer is, or maybeyou could say survive the
(26:04):
killer.
Um, the obstacle is the killer,the stakes are life and death.
It's very simple, very primal.
SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:11):
But when you get to a story, that's so that's
relentless.
SPEAKER_02 (26:15):
Well, and you also say in the book, too, that it is
kind of just like the wordrelentless, where from the start
you're in this life and deathdanger, stakes are rising all
the way through the book.
So you start out that way.
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
It's a it's an excellent point.
So so so the thing about theBlake Jessica model of Save the
Cat and my model, like when Isay use this as a strategy, is
by the break into two by the 25page mark or something before
the fun and games, you establishhero goal obstacle states, and
the whole rest of the movie isabout that.
(26:45):
Yeah, it's that's what it'sabout.
It's and the the big dramaticquestion will Sydney survive
Ghostface or will she die?
And the whole movie plays outabout that, you know, or at
least until act three.
SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Um, and then but slow burn doesn't play that.
It's or at least its log linemight be something completely it
hides the ball.
And in fact, sometimes they'rehard to pitch because you have
to pitch the midpoint.
So and and some very popularmovies uh do this.
Jurassic Park really doesn'tkick off until about the
(27:19):
50-minute mark.
Yeah, but I guarantee you whenyou pitch Jurassic Park, and
you'd say, What's it about?
Oh, it's about these dinosaurswho get loose in a theme park
and are trying to kill, but itreally doesn't happen to almost
the halfway point.
So that's why it's slow burn.
It happens in the middle.
Get out is a is a great example.
You if you if you remember thetrailers for Get Out, they
(27:39):
really didn't tell you what itwas about.
They kind of they kind of hintedat things, they showed you some
jokes, they they played coolmusic.
It was a great trailer, but theyleave a lot of it to be mystery.
Recently, weapons uh did thesame thing.
Uh, even Barbarian before thatdoes the same thing.
So the thing about slow burnhorror is the monster, it it
(28:00):
it's a couple things usuallyhappen.
The hero doesn't either doesn'tknow who the monster is, like
the monster, like in a movielike Halloween, the monster's
killing in the background, andJamie Lee Curtis has no idea
there's a monster, she'sbabysitting, she's doing
nothing, and she's the hero.
Um, and so that's one example.
The the hero has no idea there'sa monster.
(28:21):
Sometimes in a movie like Megan,um, they know there's a monster,
they're living with the monster,but they don't know it's
dangerous yet, or they don'tknow it's life or death.
So that's another common one.
And then the last but not leastis sometimes they're not trapped
with the monster, you know.
So if you're watching AlienEarth, Alien Earth right now, it
hasn't really devolved into abattle for survival totally
(28:43):
because they think they thinkthey're the ones in charge, even
though we know as the audience,uh-oh, this is gonna be a battle
for survival by the end, youknow, even though the monster's
trapped in glass.
So slowburn movies, um, that'sthat's what defines them.
Um and there's a lot of tricksuh for slowburn, and I'll just
give you one trick.
(29:04):
Um, the the problem when you getto the funny games is why isn't
this boring?
And a lot of times agents andstuff, producers in my end, they
will say, you know, we don'tknow, there's no goal here,
there's no trajectory and thingslike that.
Um, and the key thing withslowburn horror is slowburn
horror really works off oftension.
Um so and there's many ways youcan do that.
(29:27):
You can have the monster workingoff screen, and we know this
time, this ticking time bombsgetting closer and closer and
more personal and more personal,and the bomb's gonna go off at
the midpoint.
Um sometimes you the the hero isis following a mystery, like
like there's things going on.
Maybe this house seems haunted.
(29:47):
They don't think it's gonna killthem, but now they're following
the mystery of the hauntedhouse.
So there is a goal obstacle instakes.
It's just not the battle forsurvival goal obstacle and
stakes.
And last but not least, the onethat's seems to be Very popular
movies today is the dramaticindie movie is happening while
the horror stuff is happening.
So you get Sinners is a reallygood example of this.
(30:11):
Sinners has this great periodpiece story that's excellent to
watch, but it doesn't collidewith the monster until at least
probably three quarters of theway through.
But it's such an interestingstory before then that we put up
with it with this bomb under thetable that the monster is
coming.
The monster is coming.
So it just juices the tension ofan ordinary dramatic movie.
SPEAKER_02 (30:34):
Yeah, that's super interesting.
And it sounds like uh Slowburnis probably harder to pull off
because you don't have suchliteral life and death stakes
the whole time.
And it's almost like, how do youplay on that danger scale
without going all the way likefull volume to life and death?
Um, but that's great to knowbecause I know a lot of writers
will be like, well, you know, Iam writing something more like
(30:55):
that.
And then they feel like they'rejust not gonna write a horror
story that works because you'regiving them options of their
spectrum.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
I think you bring up a great point.
Normally, I'm a script coachmyself and a story coach and
things like that.
Normally, I'd scare people offfrom going in the direction of
the slow burn kind of stuff.
I almost want them to do thehero goal obstacle stakes ones
because a lot of times peoplethink they're doing the hero
goal obstacle stakes ones andthey unintentionally go in this
(31:24):
direction.
SPEAKER_01 (31:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
The only reason, and honestly, if you know me, I'm
up, I'm like hero goal obstaclestakes.
And most of my notes are like,you're not doing, you know, if
you clear that up, you'll have alot easier path with agents,
producers, things like that.
The rest, you'll be noted todeath if you don't do it, right?
But I have to say that just as afan of horror, it would be
(31:46):
disingenuous of me to kind ofsay that's the only way to do
it.
Because at least half of themovies we watch are are slow
burns, uh, half of the horror orread for sure.
Um, and so I kind of had to say,and that that's why I think
writing a save the cap book isimportant for that.
I kind of had to say, here's howyou can incorporate the two
(32:06):
things into the into the onething.
SPEAKER_02 (32:09):
Yeah, especially as we get to you know blending
genres more and things likethat.
Like we're always coming up withnew ways to do things.
So it's nice to know we haveoptions.
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Yes.
I love that.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (32:19):
Okay, so I want to talk, if we can, a little bit
about characters because one ofthe things I see a lot in the
horror manuscripts I edit isthat there will be a super
passive protagonist that is justkind of reacting and reacting to
the horror or the monster or theweird things happening.
Can you talk about that a littlebit?
SPEAKER_00 (32:37):
Yeah, yeah.
So my big trick for this, andit's almost not even character
driven, but to kind of tweak it,is it's the goal, it's the goal
issue a lot of times.
Um, it's it's the goal.
And my big thing that I I have alist of in the book, because I
think this can solve thatproblem if you're having that
problem, is sub goals.
Um, and I I think especiallywhen you get in the funny game
(32:59):
section of like a relentlesshorror movie, yeah.
It's very easy to just kind ofcower or run away, or you know,
but or even hunker down.
But I do think you almost haveto turn it into mini stories
that are related to the subgoals.
It's almost like a video gamewhere you go on these little
missions based on the big thing.
And I have a again, I have a biglist of things that can help you
(33:22):
brainstorm these, but they couldbe anything from like tool
acquisition, you know.
We need the we need the shotgunor we need the the shovel or we
something like that.
Um, solving a mystery, thatcould be a thing.
Um, getting medical attention,calling for help.
You know, a lot of these arevery obvious, but I have a big
list of obvious ones if you needhelp with that.
(33:43):
Yeah, but I think coming up withthese mini stories that kind of
cycle through that all are inservice of the bigger story of
survival.
Um, that's the key to kind ofmaking your protagonist active.
And and you know, if yourprotagonist is inactive, if
they're the type of personthat's a slacker or something
(34:03):
like that, um I always go backto a story like Sh uh Shrek.
I don't know why I'm doing allthe kids' movies today.
Shrek is always my example whenI talk about this.
Like Shrek just wants to be leftalone.
Shrek's kind of a passivecharacter.
So the object with that is theyturn the heat up on Shrek so
much that the only way he can beleft alone again, the only way
(34:25):
he can fight to get back tostatus quo is to take lots of
action.
Yeah, and and and be verydetermined.
And that's always my thing withwith heroes, even passive
heroes, is you just got to lightthe heat.
That's where you have to raisethe stakes on them a little bit.
So they're forced to to have subgoals, like their hiding spot
isn't gonna last.
Um, all the all these kind ofthings.
(34:46):
Somebody's hurt.
Um, somebody needs to get theword out.
There's a ticking clock, likelike, you know, the police car
is on the hill and they'relooking around, and we only have
a couple minutes to alert themto the, you know, we're trapped
down here.
Um, you have to give the and ifyou can come up with those sub
goals, usually you can weave inand out of things.
(35:07):
Um, and it keeps things fromgetting redundant as well.
SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
Yeah.
And I like um speaking of goals,you were saying earlier when we
talked about the setup, howthere needs to be something
going on that the horror or themonster can get in the way of.
So Shrek is a great example of,you know, kind of like the most
passive example you can pick.
He has a life going on, and mostof us will.
And so when, you know, themonster comes in, we already
have existing goals that aregoing to compete with that
(35:32):
survival or whatever until theycan't.
So we just gotta keep that inmind too.
SPEAKER_00 (35:36):
That's great.
SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
Um, okay, so I have two more, two more questions for
you.
One of them is about you talkabout dread, scares, and gross
outs.
And that was one of my favoriteparts of the book.
Can you just describe like thatsection for us real quick?
SPEAKER_00 (35:49):
Yeah, it's and honestly, I'm I love that you
like that section because it'sit's probably the section that
made me write the book.
It was like the it was like onceI had that, I was like, I need
to write this book because Iwant to get this part out.
SPEAKER_01 (36:01):
Yeah, I loved it.
SPEAKER_00 (36:02):
And and it's a lot of it, I have to give credit.
Stephen King, I think in hisbook Dance Macabre, that I read
when I was like 10 years old.
Like so, I was already thinkingwriting horror back then.
Um, he he had, and I I kind ofparaphrased it.
Um, he he called them differentthings, and I never liked the
things he called them, so I kindof changed them to my own.
(36:24):
So um, Dread scares gross outs.
Um, and you can look up theoriginal, it's like terror or
something, and something terrornever computed well.
I wasn't really sure what terrorwas versus so that's a big word
that covers a lot, right?
It covers a lot, and I couldnever really compute it.
So um first we'll start with thetwo most obvious ones scares.
(36:45):
Scares are moments where ummonsters attack, uh, something
something really horriblehappens.
There's some kind of usuallyusually physical element to it.
Um, it's less in your mind, youknow, the wherewithal change,
like ah, my arm turns into thewerewolf or something.
SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Very literal.
SPEAKER_00 (37:04):
It's very literal.
Um, it's shocking, it comes outof nowhere, and it actually, you
know, should get people's heartspumping and and scare them in
some way.
It's and it it's so that'sscares.
Gross outs, I I think you canimagine what they are.
Um, and they're kind of a aspecial case of of scares in
some ways.
Um and I go into all kinds ofthings like figuring out scares
(37:27):
and all that and gross outs andstuff.
But I'm gonna go back to myfavorite one, which is dread.
Um, because much like I said thesin was the big differentiating
point in my own horror writing,when I kind of figured out what
dread was, that was the bigdifferentiator.
And when I read, and I read alot of horror writers because of
I'm a horror writer, um, when Iread them, a lot of times that's
(37:50):
what's missing because you cannever have enough of it.
Um, I have a whole nother thingin my other books called a
rooting resume.
And dread and rooting resumeseem similar.
Rooting resume is kind of thesave the cat of it.
That's like, why do we careabout this character?
Why do we I feel like you canpile that on in the first 10
pages?
I feel like in a horror script,you could pile dread on by
(38:11):
dozens and dozens of examples.
Like every you could just likeevery page can have little
pieces of dread.
And what I discovered recently,and this is the reason I almost
wanted to write the book.
Like, once I had this, I waslike, I have all these other
things.
And now this is really cool, andI've never heard anybody say
this.
I was watching the movieBarbarian, and there was an
interview with the director, andhe said he was reading a book
(38:34):
about red flags, like on dates,and he stacked those into the
beginning of his movie, redflags, and it popped in my head,
that's dread.
And I so I called him dreadflags because I love a good, I
love a good pun.
Yeah, I love it.
Dread flags, dread is reallyjust red flags to the audience
(38:54):
or to the hero.
Sometimes the hero misses them,like sometimes the hero doesn't
notice the uh I don't know, theopen door behind them or
something like that.
Dread is just red flag after redflag after red flag that
something's not right and leadsthe audience to um to worry, and
and you can just stack theselike on and it could be
(39:16):
everything from bad weather,like we see the storm start.
Yeah, that's a dread flag.
That's the we're like, uh oh,the storm's starting, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (39:23):
What's or there's like a murder of crows in your
front yard.
SPEAKER_00 (39:26):
There's a murder of crows in the front yard, and
they could they could be reallysubtle things like uh a piece of
rotting fruit.
Well, I guess that's not verysubtle, but I mean they can be
some person acting in a creepyway to you or something.
I love that.
Yeah, so that my my favoritething in the book, or one of my
favorite things to tell writersabout is dread flags.
(39:46):
Stack red flags that maybe thehero sees or maybe they don't.
Usually it's a mix of both.
Usually they see some, theydon't see some, but the audience
sees them, and the audience islike, uh-oh, they're not
realizing that storms are bad orflickering, flickering lights
aren't good, where that creepydecoration in the haunted house
(40:06):
hall isn't a good thing, youknow.
Yeah, they're the they're dreadflags, and um yeah, so anyway,
that I think you can somebodylistening to that can take that
away and run with it withouteven buying the book.
Yeah.
And um, and and use it to greatuse in their own stories.
SPEAKER_02 (40:23):
I feel like what a fun way to be creative with
that, too.
You know, like that's whatreaders like, that's probably
what the authors will have funwith.
So I love that part.
That was my favorite part of thewhole book.
SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
It's my biggest list, too, because once I get
started on that, I'm like, oh,there's so many.
And it's a big, it's a big list.
And I didn't even get to, youknow, probably three, four, five
is coming soon.
I could I'll I I'll have towrite a whole book of just some
dread flags.
SPEAKER_02 (40:46):
Yeah, love it.
Okay.
Well, the last question I havefor you is about um how and when
we show our monsters, because Iknow, well, not really how and
when, but I guess how much ofour monster we show.
Because one of the things I seea lot in drafts is
over-explaining, over focusingon details instead of leaving
things up to our imagination.
(41:06):
Um, and you talk about in thebook how our imaginations are
going to make things way morescary than any detail you can
add.
How do we know where the line isbetween too much and too little?
SPEAKER_00 (41:16):
It's a great question.
It's a it's a tricky forscreenwriters, it's a tricky
question.
Yeah.
Because when I'm in production,directors like to leave a lot
out.
Producers hate to leave anythingout, and they like to tell the
whole story.
So there's usually this powerstruggle between the two.
But I'll tell you, any any umhorror or artist is on the side
(41:37):
of leading leaving as much outas possible, you know.
As leaving, I I always describeit, let's say the things in the
shadows.
You don't want to completelyhave it be in the shadows.
I work a lot with the guy whodirected and wrote Blair Witch
Project, the Blair WitchProject.
They left everything in theshadows in that.
That was kind of all messed upto interpretation.
I always feel like the monstersin the shadow in your book, give
(42:01):
give the reader a flickeringflashlight.
Give the reader that flickeringflashlight, give them little
glimpses.
And I actually, in my monstersection, I actually
differentiate um kind ofbackstory from what I call what
I'm calling in the book lore.
And I think lore is what youkind of tell your audience.
It's kind of like maybe we knowa little bit, but we don't know
(42:24):
the actual like how the monsterwas born and who its mother was
or something like that.
We we might know the ghost storythat was told because the
monster showed up, and we mightlearn that or get glimpses of
it.
But that's basically what youwant.
You want to give those littleglimpses.
Um, and it depends on the story,obviously.
Like if it's a story likeScream, that's almost like a
(42:45):
murder mystery in some ways, andyou're gonna tell the whole
thing.
But if it is a story like theBlair Witch Project, the fun is
actually in almost like thatthat lore, that that that
cryptid style, like ghost storykind of telling of what it is.
Yeah.
You want to give a I always feellike you want to give a little
more than that, but not too muchmore.
(43:06):
Like you want to give just alittle bit more.
Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (43:10):
Like you said, the lore and the little flashes is
way scarier because ourimaginations will take it and
run with it.
But I feel I see a lot ofwriters who are super concerned
about the details of like, dothey have fur, do they have
skin?
Do and it's like we don't needto know that as much as how it's
affecting the characters and thestory and things like that.
SPEAKER_00 (43:27):
I I think for better or worse, this is this is where
like notes can hurt you a littlebit.
Because if you if you get enoughnotes, somebody's gonna say, I'd
like to know more about themonster, and then you're gonna
be like, and that's the that's awhole nother podcast.
Yeah.
But you know, I think that'swhere some writers get a little
messy and they have to be alittle, but I think if you have
(43:50):
intent for these things likeslow burn or hiding things in
the shadow, and you you really,really understand why you're
doing it, that's the key, right?
Yeah, it's like if you know whyyou're doing it, if it's not an
accident, no, it's different ifsomebody says, I'd like to know
more about the monster, andyou're like, What?
They didn't understand my wholebackstory, then maybe you need
(44:10):
to show more about the monster.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:12):
But you know, if you have intent, sometimes it's good
when you get the note, I'd liketo know more about the monster.
Sometimes that's where you wantto.
Like, yeah, yeah, I know you do.
That's like that's my point.
That's my point.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:24):
Yeah.
Well, you have so much morestuff on monsters, and I part of
me wanted to go into likemonster backstory and all that
because that was fascinatingtoo.
But we'll leave that to the bookas well.
Uh, so any last parting words ofwisdom for horror writers?
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
Oh wow, I I think I said all the cool stuff.
I should have I should havesaved something in reverse.
Um, the you know, the only otherthing that I'll say that's also
in the book is um tone can be atricky thing with um horror
writers.
Um, and a little trick I have inthat in that regard is I come up
with I what I call a tonameterbefore I start my projects.
(45:00):
And a tonameter, I I literallylet's say it's a zombie story
I'm telling.
I say, what tone is my movie ornovel most like?
And then I'll make a list ofgoofy, you know, I'll start
redneck zombies might be numberone on the goofy list, and maybe
something like 28 days later,I'll be most more like seven,
eight, or nine on my scale ofone to ten.
(45:21):
And I try to figure out where myscale is.
SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:24):
And when in doubt, I ask myself, would this fit at
number six?
Or have I gone to number two orthree or four?
And um, because I think that'stone is really important to keep
a consistent tone in a horrormovie.
And again, if you have theintention of jumping the toads
somewhere around the midpoint,like they think this is a
serious thing, but I'm gonna go,you know, wild and crazy around
(45:46):
the midpoint.
I mean, that might beunderstandable, but most things
need to keep that constant tone.
SPEAKER_02 (45:52):
I actually love that part of the book too.
And I kept thinking, how would Irank this the same?
How would I do it differently?
So I think it's cool that we cankind of do it subjectively as
well and say, where does ourstory fit on this scale?
SPEAKER_00 (46:02):
It gives you a guide.
And it's it's fun to make thetone chart.
SPEAKER_02 (46:06):
Totally.
I know I was looking at thatpart a lot.
So anyway, we will put the linkto your new book in the show
notes.
We'll put the link to where tofind you around the internet and
everything.
But thank you so much for comingon the show today.
SPEAKER_00 (46:17):
Thank you.
This was a great time, greatconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (46:21):
All right, so that's it for this episode of the
Fiction Writing Made EasyPodcast.
Head over to savannagilbo.comforward slash podcast for the
complete show notes, includingthe resources I mentioned today,
as well as bonus materials tohelp you implement what you've
learned.
And if you're ready to get morepersonalized guidance for your
specific writing stage, whetheryou're just starting out, stuck
(46:42):
somewhere in the middle of adraft, drowning in revisions, or
getting ready to publish, takemy free 30-second quiz at
savannagilbo.com forward slashquiz.
You'll get a customized podcastplaylist that'll meet you right
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Last but not least, make sure tofollow this podcast in your
podcast player of choice becauseI'll be back next week with
(47:02):
another episode full ofactionable tips, tools, and
strategies to help you become abetter writer.
Until then, happy writing.
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Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com