October 10, 2022 • 22 mins
Michael Roberts, CMO of MetLife, believes in outcomes, so much so that in the organizations he has had a chance to lead as a senior marketing executive, he has changed team structures and operating models to focus on outcomes based marketing. One of his key principles, is that if you can't find a pattern of things NOT working, then it means that things are completely out control. So how do you find ways to consistently make things better, whether they were already broken or perhaps even doing quite well? Listen in as Michael shares a few personal tips from his incredibly successful career.
Michael is a senior operating executive and business leader with 18 years of experience serving financial institutions/professional services companies, leading teams of up to 150 people and product P&Ls of $1B+. Currently he is the CMO of MetLife running global brand and marketing for the organization. An operationally-focused business partner, his expertise spans strategic partnerships & M&A activities; strategy development; marketing, product management & technology; organizational re-structuring and process improvement. His exceptional communication, leadership, collaboration and relationship building skills inform all his work, as does his ability to identify/remove complexity in order to standardize/simplify.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Corby Fine (00:44):
So welcome back.
I've taken a few months off ofmy podcast for a whole bunch of
reasons.
and one of them was really tothink about what I wanted the
new format to be.
And I think you'll see, as Istart off with new guests and
new conversations, we're gonnafocus a little bit more.
Quick hits and things that youcan actually do to, to change
(01:05):
the trajectory of, yourbusiness, of your life.
Little things, things thateveryone can take away and learn
from.
And my first guest today, Ihappened to meet over the
summer.
We had a great conversation.
We were talking about marketingand transformation and agility,
and something really struck inwhat he said to me that that
said he has to be the.
(01:25):
Person that I get back on mypodcast when I relaunch in the
fall Michael Roberts is with metoday.
He is the chief marketingofficer of MetLife a member of
the company's executiveleadership team.
He's leading global brand andmarketing for the organization,
really focused on designing.
You know, value driven solutionsto help MetLife build
(01:46):
ultimately, you know, amazingand remarkable and enduring
customer relationships.
It's a, it's a big role.
It's a big task prior toMetLife.
Michael was with the Vanguardgroup as the CMO for the retail
investor group.
He's also been with bank ofAmerica merchant services an
amazing career Michael, welcometo the podcast.
Michael Roberts (02:07):
Corby.
Thanks so much.
you know, I, I look back reallyfondly on our, our conversation,
from this summer and so happy tobe able to be here to.
Corby Fine (02:15):
Yeah, I, I appreciate it.
And you're, I believe in NewYork today, which is where
you're based out of I'm inToronto.
So we've got a niceinternational conversation going
too.
Why don't you just describebriefly, so everyone understands
your mandate.
What are you doing at MetLifeand, and maybe a little bit
about MetLife for those thataren't totally familiar with the
organization.
Michael Roberts (02:33):
Yeah.
Happy to Corby.
So as, as you mentioned, I'm theglobal chief marketing officer,
for MetLife.
MetLife is.
You know, a 70 plus billiondiversified, insurance company
that has operations in about 40markets.
It serves in the us 96 of thefortune 185% of the fortune 500
(02:54):
providing group insurancebenefits with a largest life
insurer in Latin America, weserve over 20 million customers.
In Asia with with a big presencein Japan.
So we're a, we're a global lifeinsurer with a diversified
product set and and businessesthat make up you know, kinda an
amazing portfolio ofopportunities to, to as we say
(03:17):
live our purpose, which ishelping our customers have a
more confident.
Corby Fine (03:23):
Yeah, it's a, it is a great purpose.
and I think organizationsultimately, and it's, you know,
it's proving out in the metricsand the financial results that
actually live their purpose areseeing, seeing the downstream
benefits of that.
there's an interview questionthat ask a lot of people when
I'm interviewing.
So anyone who's listening, who'sever gonna apply for a job just
on my team.
Anyway, take note of this.
I often ask people, you know,there's something in your
(03:43):
current job or maybe yourprevious one that.
You just, you don't think isright.
You know, you don't thinksomething's operating, right.
You don't think there's ameeting cadence, a, a process.
and really the question I askpeople as the kicker is, you
know, so what did you do aboutit?
And it's not so much that yousolve every problem, but that
you're willing to take thechance to try and raise the
(04:05):
issue and find better ways to dothings.
So, as we talk about makingchanges that can lead to better
outcomes, Can you think back inyour career about a particular
situation where you said toyourself, there's just something
not working.
It's not going right.
It's a product, it's a process.
It's something with thestructure and what did you do to
try and, make it better,ultimately for everyone
(04:26):
involved.
Michael Roberts (04:28):
Yeah.
So, it's, it's such a first ofall, cor that's a great
question.
I think, I think everybodyshould should really think
about, how they would answerthat question.
and what are the five, you know,kinda examples that pattern of
how to think about improvement,I think is a really, really
kinda important.
Self examination, reveals a lotabout, you know, how we process
(04:51):
information and models use in.
I'm gonna go back to, asituation I had, where I was
running a, you know, a, anorganization and I'm, I'm gonna,
(05:12):
I'm gonna be purposefully vaguein some of the specifics of the,
innocence
Corby Fine (05:18):
Of
Michael Roberts (05:18):
of, but you know, where I saw, kind of a, an
organization that had an amazingamount of talent.
But was just positioned and wasoperating in a way that you
know, where the people in theorganization, the talented
people in the organizationweren't happy.
(05:41):
The, partners of that, of thatorganization were not happy.
and nothing was really workingkind of the right way.
It was, it was just a, you know,kinda a situation where, and
this is a, an interestingobservation, kinda this was, you
know, reasonably early in mymarketing career where I
couldn't find a pattern ofthings not working.
(06:03):
Which, which then tells me thatit's completely out control.
When you can find a pattern ofthings not working, then you can
start follow the pattern andunderstand, kinda causes.
What I saw was that was, andthis organization organization.
So I, I realized that I neededto.
(06:27):
Changed the whole organizationstructurally.
And so what I did, I startedkinda at the, at the top and
moving really, really quickly tofind new leadership and you
know, and mix new leadership inwith the old leadership.
And so we had this interestingprocess of, of designing a
couple jobs and then we kindainterview.
(06:48):
Some people, we found peoplethat we thought we liked, and
then we put them in a roomtogether to solve problems
together, to see if they couldwork.
And then I hired essentially ablock people at the same time in
order to the leadership and thatteam eliminated hundred of the
in the organization and hadeverybody reapply for new jobs
(07:08):
in a, in a new organization andwhile traumatic you know, we you
know, for, for a moment, What wefound at the end of that process
is that the entire systemchanged.
And you know, the, the talentedpeople in the organization,
found, you know, better, moreappropriate, places to add value
(07:29):
the processes we're able to belooked at from a fresh
perspective.
And in the end, you know, we hadmuch.
More engaged group that wasdelivering outcomes, for the
business in a way that, thatthey, they weren't able to
before.
And so this was a situationwhere we had to kind change
everything at once.
(07:50):
But there was very little lossof resources and jobs and that
in that whole situation.
And, and we found that peoplewere a lot happier at the end,
it's almost like we had, youknow, hockey players playing
lacrosse.
And basketball players playingtennis.
And so everybody into the rightsport doing, doing the.
Corby Fine (08:11):
See, that's how I know you're a true marketer
because you know, I'm aCanadian, you started with
hockey.
That's very talented of you.
Thank, thank you.
I, I love it with am whenAmericans talk hockey.
Let me quick follow up on that.
You, you mentioned mixing thenew leadership with the old
leadership.
So when you think about hiringand talent acquisition, how
important is it for you to thinkabout.
(08:34):
Knowledge and expertise in thevertical or technical area
versus capability and capacitywith fresh or maybe distinct and
different backgrounds.
How do you mix that?
Michael Roberts (08:44):
Yeah.
So, you know, in general.
And this is maybe a, a littlebit of my bias.
I find that you know the, theorganization that I'm in or the
group that I'm, I'm leading,tends to have, the majority of
what is needed in order to besuccessful.
And so what I do is I look at.
(09:06):
What, what we have that is, isworking, maybe even what we
have, that's not working andkinda evaluate how to, how to
improve that, and then look atwhat needs to be marginally
improved.
And it generally marginal, itgenerally needs to be marginally
improved.
You know, organizations have,cycles and lives of their own.
(09:27):
and in most places that I'vebeen.
There's never been or in all theplaces I've been, there's never
been in it's about the S are.
(09:47):
The marginal changes that areneeded in order to be
successful.
And I'll go back to the exampleI used before.
I didn't say need a whole newteam.
I said, let's go out how makethis team more successful?
And of course we added a fewhere and there.
But overall, what I found isthat most organizations have
what they need to be successfulwith just a little bit of, you
(10:09):
know, a little bit of marginal.
Corby Fine (10:11):
So that's a perfect segue into my next question,
which, you know, often thingsare actually pretty good.
They're working well, you'rehitting your goals, your
targets, your objectives.
But if you actually believe thateverything can always be made or
done better just as a generalphilosophy.
And, you know, I, I always usethe iPod story of the first iPod
you held in your hand.
(10:32):
It was, a pound and a half ofmetal and plastic with a gray
screen.
And it held 1,024 songs.
And it was the best thing youever had, but could you imagine
holding that.
It doesn't mean that what, whatwas good then was, was actually
not good.
It was great for the moment atthe time, but engineers and
innovators and executives keptsaying, you know, what, how do
(10:54):
we, how do we just constantlyrefine and make it that much?
Better for the future.
and to this day, we're stillseeing that improvement.
And so if you operate yourbusiness that way, it means, you
know, as a mentality, you'regonna try and, and tweak and to
your point, adjust things or, orfind those marginal changes.
So maybe.
Do you ever find yourself in asituation where you're like,
(11:16):
wow, you know, the team, theexecutives, the board,
everybody's happy, but I, Istill want to try something
different.
I, I think there's room forimprovement.
And how do you identify thoseareas that
Michael Roberts (11:26):
For most executives, as you know, you,
and, and for most people ingeneral, just we, we go to where
the problem is then we, we, wetry to fix things.
That's kinda, our nature is aswe come in and in business, as
I've observed, you know, me andothers that I know I'll, I'll
tell you.
(11:47):
Perspective on this questionkind of was, was informed by,
you know, a great,
Corby Fine (11:53):
you're not, you're not gonna get a ton of pushback
and pressure.
It's like, are you, are you, areyou nuts?
What are you talking about?
There's too much risk.
Versus the potential of, butlook how much more engaged we
can make our team look at thecustomer experience we can
improve and, and maybe makebetter financial gains.
Is there, is there a situationwhere you took the chance and
said, I'm gonna try and makesomething that better that on
the surface actually looks likeit's pumping along.
(12:14):
Great.
Michael Roberts (12:16):
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a really
interesting challenge, I thinkfor a great article that I read,
you know, probably more than 20years ago called nobody ever
gets credit for fixing problemsthat never happened.
Which is a, a great title by anarticle and you know, of the,
the ways to look at systems inorder to drive improvement and
(12:36):
in some ways it informed myperspective on.
On how things are always to becontinuously improved.
You know, there's always aninvestment in capabilities
that's needed, in order toimprove, you know, kinda actual
performance and whether there'sa performance gap or, or not,
improvement is, is somethingthat, that can be, can be
(12:59):
constant and, and designed intoa system.
And so in, in some ways Iactually don't accept the idea.
That you know, everything'sgoing well.
I, I kinda reject to thatpremise and, and one of the
things, you know, that's morerecent in terms of, management
thinking and, and operatingmodels is, is agile.
And agile, you know, kind of hasbuilt into it, a continuous
(13:23):
iteration on products or, orwhatever the actual process is
being, being applied to.
You know, in some ways I feellike, it's a great question, but
it doesn't to my mental model ofthe works over a of, of I, I
(13:46):
think there are some trapsthough.
where, where we can look at.
improvements or you can look atthe wrong solutions in order to
drive, you know, improvement.
And so you know, there are,there are, are so many
situations where we just kind ofeither take shortcuts or work
harder.
Rather than spending the timeinvestment or reinvestment in,
(14:06):
in, in capabilities or figuringout smarter ways to work.
But I think that's lesson for mehas understand the out the, the.
The challenge of, or the, the,the trap of working harder or
taking shortcuts and focus onreinvestment and, and working
smarter overall.
(14:27):
And that's, you know, somethingthat I, to, to just about to
just about everything that I,you know, kind I I touch or
interact with and in life andbusiness, it's understanding the
system and, and really figuringout how to reinvest in,
capabilities and to work smarteroverall.
Corby Fine (14:44):
Yeah, that's, it's great advice.
And I I just pulled up thearticle and I'm gonna I'm gonna
share it out with my network aswell.
Just note caveat.
It's like, it's really longeverybody, but I'm if, if
Michael says it's a good read,it's a good read, but I'm gonna
share it out.
I found a copy.
so I guess, you know, the, the,this, some of that maybe takes
me to my, third and final indepth question.
You're in an industry.
(15:05):
insurance not everybody reallyunderstands all of the
intricacies and the complexitiesthat go on in the insurance
business.
They see.
Mascots they see, uh, the, the,they it's, it is a good podcast.
I just listened to on why everyinsurance company has a mascot,
which we should talk about inanother
Michael Roberts (15:22):
Yeah.
Corby Fine (15:23):
But, you know, when you think about the trends, the
technologies, the productsMetLife doesn't bring in someone
like you to keep the status quoand per your philosophy that you
just expressed.
You're always trying to find.
Simple and complex things to dobetter.
So where, where is insurancegoing?
What are those trends?
Whatever you can tell that isn'tsecret sauce of the business
that might enlighten us tothink, Hey, that might apply to
(15:45):
my business too.
Michael Roberts (15:48):
Yeah.
I think, I think a couplethoughts here.
Cor so one, I think insurance isway a lot of the rest of
financial services in terms ofcustomer experience being, you
know, a new, you know, not new,but an emerging kind of
priority.
for the industry, Insuranceoverall has lagged in terms of
(16:10):
customer experience and even thetech that are creating great
customer experiences.
Haven't put the same sortpressure on the customer
experience that is you know,that happened other parts of
financials, the consumeroverall.
And so I think The consumer ismuch more powerful and, and
demanding in terms of insurers.
(16:36):
That's another trend, which is,has a, a Bri of a broader
implication for, for lots ofdifferent businesses beyond
insurance.
That you know, our, ourenvironment is becoming more
(16:57):
volatile.
And individuals are having tomanage risk kind of more
proactively their own risk aswell as risk, you know, for
their families.
And frankly, you know, postpandemic protection has become.
More important to to lots ofpeople.
And I think this idea ofprotection, as you know, core
(17:19):
versus ancillary I think willbecome something that, lots of
businesses are going to have toto contend.
And you, you see some businessescontending with it, you know,
in, in innovative ways, it'srise of insurance, a lot of
consumer business where you canyou product it's for, but it's
(17:44):
more broadly across differentecosystems.
You're seeing things.
You know, digital wellness andprotection solutions that are
being, adopted, significantlymore.
So people see, risks in the, inthe digital space, whether it's,
you know, identity theft, Orother sort of risks that they're
from a social perspective.
So I think, I think particularlyincrease we've that a pandemic.
(18:16):
And then I, I think the thirdthing in insurance that is, part
of, what we'll see in thefuture.
Is you know, I think a lot moreattention to generational
differences in, in perspectiveon what insurance can and should
provide part of this, I think isbased on demographics.
We're gonna live longer andlonger.
(18:36):
And so the sorts of things thatwe think about for protection
and retirement are gonna bedifferent.
Cause retirement is gonna lookdifferent.
And so I think longevity isgonna have a big impact, on lots
of industries.
And and the needs of people, youknow, kind of in these longer
lives.
And I think that's gonna, that'sgonna be an, an important shift
for, for the insurance business.
(18:56):
But I think, if your business isnot thinking about what
longevity means then you'regonna miss a gigantic
demographic trends.
Corby Fine (19:05):
Yeah.
The, the term embedded insurancehadn't really crossed my mind
until you just said it, but.
I just signed up for 122kilometer bike ride from
Vancouver to Whistler nextSeptember.
And it has two kilometers of ascent.
So it's like a big ride and theyoffered me for$20 and 40 cents
insurance on my, on my depositof a few hundred dollars to do
(19:29):
the ride.
And it would cover certain otherthings tied to travel, et
cetera.
And you know, I, in the sense ofa customer experience coming
back to your first point, I I'dbe, I'd be crazy not to take
that, thinking that it's 12months ahead.
I have no idea what my lifesituation's gonna be.
I don't even know if I'll beable to book a flight, get a
hotel, find a box to ship mybike, rent a bike.
(19:51):
There's so many factors ofunknown.
And, you know, you guys, as anindustry are so great at
forecasting, all of thosedifferent parameters of
potential risk and change, andthen offering it to me in a
simple high value, low costoffering that if everybody
didn't take that, that wassigning up, they'd be like
insane.
And so that whole notion ofembedding it, the digital, you
(20:15):
know, the digitization of theexperience.
in the moment decisioning and,and actually providing value
really made me feel like, wow,like that's a great customer
experience.
I, I would absolutely recommendthis race or this, you know, an
event to all of my networkbecause there's like no risk.
And
Michael Roberts (20:33):
Right.
Corby Fine (20:33):
about that in other areas, it's, it's a great model.
Michael Roberts (20:37):
It it it months.
And we have less confidence inlooks so reflects the
Corby Fine (20:55):
Exactly.
Well, listen explaining it to mewas great.
I, I completely, you know, seeand understand through both our
conversations and today'sinterview, why MetLife wants
someone like you running thehelm of that, future of
marketing, the future ofagility, the future of customer
experience Michael Roberts, thechief marketing officer of
MetLife.
(21:15):
I really appreciate you takingthe time to speak with me and,
and thanks so much for all ofyour insight.
Michael Roberts (21:21):
Thanks Corby.
It's.
It's great to speak with.
Corby Fine (21:23):
And enjoy the hockey season this year.
take care.
Michael Roberts (21:27):
I appreciate it.
Take care.
So welcome back.
I've taken a few months off ofmy podcast for a whole bunch of
reasons.
and one of them was really tothink about what I wanted the
new format to be.
And I think you'll see, as Istart off with new guests and
new conversations, we're gonnafocus a little bit more.
Quick hits and things that youcan actually do to, to change
(01:05):
the trajectory of, yourbusiness, of your life.
Little things, things thateveryone can take away and learn
from.
And my first guest today, Ihappened to meet over the
summer.
We had a great conversation.
We were talking about marketingand transformation and agility,
and something really struck inwhat he said to me that that
said he has to be the.
(01:25):
Person that I get back on mypodcast when I relaunch in the
fall Michael Roberts is with metoday.
He is the chief marketingofficer of MetLife a member of
the company's executiveleadership team.
He's leading global brand andmarketing for the organization,
really focused on designing.
You know, value driven solutionsto help MetLife build
(01:46):
ultimately, you know, amazingand remarkable and enduring
customer relationships.
It's a, it's a big role.
It's a big task prior toMetLife.
Michael was with the Vanguardgroup as the CMO for the retail
investor group.
He's also been with bank ofAmerica merchant services an
amazing career Michael, welcometo the podcast.
Michael Roberts (02:07):
Corby.
Thanks so much.
you know, I, I look back reallyfondly on our, our conversation,
from this summer and so happy tobe able to be here to.
Corby Fine (02:15):
Yeah, I, I appreciate it.
And you're, I believe in NewYork today, which is where
you're based out of I'm inToronto.
So we've got a niceinternational conversation going
too.
Why don't you just describebriefly, so everyone understands
your mandate.
What are you doing at MetLifeand, and maybe a little bit
about MetLife for those thataren't totally familiar with the
organization.
Michael Roberts (02:33):
Yeah.
Happy to Corby.
So as, as you mentioned, I'm theglobal chief marketing officer,
for MetLife.
MetLife is.
You know, a 70 plus billiondiversified, insurance company
that has operations in about 40markets.
It serves in the us 96 of thefortune 185% of the fortune 500
(02:54):
providing group insurancebenefits with a largest life
insurer in Latin America, weserve over 20 million customers.
In Asia with with a big presencein Japan.
So we're a, we're a global lifeinsurer with a diversified
product set and and businessesthat make up you know, kinda an
amazing portfolio ofopportunities to, to as we say
(03:17):
live our purpose, which ishelping our customers have a
more confident.
Corby Fine (03:23):
Yeah, it's a, it is a great purpose.
and I think organizationsultimately, and it's, you know,
it's proving out in the metricsand the financial results that
actually live their purpose areseeing, seeing the downstream
benefits of that.
there's an interview questionthat ask a lot of people when
I'm interviewing.
So anyone who's listening, who'sever gonna apply for a job just
on my team.
Anyway, take note of this.
I often ask people, you know,there's something in your
(03:43):
current job or maybe yourprevious one that.
You just, you don't think isright.
You know, you don't thinksomething's operating, right.
You don't think there's ameeting cadence, a, a process.
and really the question I askpeople as the kicker is, you
know, so what did you do aboutit?
And it's not so much that yousolve every problem, but that
you're willing to take thechance to try and raise the
(04:05):
issue and find better ways to dothings.
So, as we talk about makingchanges that can lead to better
outcomes, Can you think back inyour career about a particular
situation where you said toyourself, there's just something
not working.
It's not going right.
It's a product, it's a process.
It's something with thestructure and what did you do to
try and, make it better,ultimately for everyone
(04:26):
involved.
Michael Roberts (04:28):
Yeah.
So, it's, it's such a first ofall, cor that's a great
question.
I think, I think everybodyshould should really think
about, how they would answerthat question.
and what are the five, you know,kinda examples that pattern of
how to think about improvement,I think is a really, really
kinda important.
Self examination, reveals a lotabout, you know, how we process
(04:51):
information and models use in.
I'm gonna go back to, asituation I had, where I was
running a, you know, a, anorganization and I'm, I'm gonna,
(05:12):
I'm gonna be purposefully vaguein some of the specifics of the,
innocence
Corby Fine (05:18):
Of
Michael Roberts (05:18):
of, but you know, where I saw, kind of a, an
organization that had an amazingamount of talent.
But was just positioned and wasoperating in a way that you
know, where the people in theorganization, the talented
people in the organizationweren't happy.
(05:41):
The, partners of that, of thatorganization were not happy.
and nothing was really workingkind of the right way.
It was, it was just a, you know,kinda a situation where, and
this is a, an interestingobservation, kinda this was, you
know, reasonably early in mymarketing career where I
couldn't find a pattern ofthings not working.
(06:03):
Which, which then tells me thatit's completely out control.
When you can find a pattern ofthings not working, then you can
start follow the pattern andunderstand, kinda causes.
What I saw was that was, andthis organization organization.
So I, I realized that I neededto.
(06:27):
Changed the whole organizationstructurally.
And so what I did, I startedkinda at the, at the top and
moving really, really quickly tofind new leadership and you
know, and mix new leadership inwith the old leadership.
And so we had this interestingprocess of, of designing a
couple jobs and then we kindainterview.
(06:48):
Some people, we found peoplethat we thought we liked, and
then we put them in a roomtogether to solve problems
together, to see if they couldwork.
And then I hired essentially ablock people at the same time in
order to the leadership and thatteam eliminated hundred of the
in the organization and hadeverybody reapply for new jobs
(07:08):
in a, in a new organization andwhile traumatic you know, we you
know, for, for a moment, What wefound at the end of that process
is that the entire systemchanged.
And you know, the, the talentedpeople in the organization,
found, you know, better, moreappropriate, places to add value
(07:29):
the processes we're able to belooked at from a fresh
perspective.
And in the end, you know, we hadmuch.
More engaged group that wasdelivering outcomes, for the
business in a way that, thatthey, they weren't able to
before.
And so this was a situationwhere we had to kind change
everything at once.
(07:50):
But there was very little lossof resources and jobs and that
in that whole situation.
And, and we found that peoplewere a lot happier at the end,
it's almost like we had, youknow, hockey players playing
lacrosse.
And basketball players playingtennis.
And so everybody into the rightsport doing, doing the.
Corby Fine (08:11):
See, that's how I know you're a true marketer
because you know, I'm aCanadian, you started with
hockey.
That's very talented of you.
Thank, thank you.
I, I love it with am whenAmericans talk hockey.
Let me quick follow up on that.
You, you mentioned mixing thenew leadership with the old
leadership.
So when you think about hiringand talent acquisition, how
important is it for you to thinkabout.
(08:34):
Knowledge and expertise in thevertical or technical area
versus capability and capacitywith fresh or maybe distinct and
different backgrounds.
How do you mix that?
Michael Roberts (08:44):
Yeah.
So, you know, in general.
And this is maybe a, a littlebit of my bias.
I find that you know the, theorganization that I'm in or the
group that I'm, I'm leading,tends to have, the majority of
what is needed in order to besuccessful.
And so what I do is I look at.
(09:06):
What, what we have that is, isworking, maybe even what we
have, that's not working andkinda evaluate how to, how to
improve that, and then look atwhat needs to be marginally
improved.
And it generally marginal, itgenerally needs to be marginally
improved.
You know, organizations have,cycles and lives of their own.
(09:27):
and in most places that I'vebeen.
There's never been or in all theplaces I've been, there's never
been in it's about the S are.
(09:47):
The marginal changes that areneeded in order to be
successful.
And I'll go back to the exampleI used before.
I didn't say need a whole newteam.
I said, let's go out how makethis team more successful?
And of course we added a fewhere and there.
But overall, what I found isthat most organizations have
what they need to be successfulwith just a little bit of, you
(10:09):
know, a little bit of marginal.
Corby Fine (10:11):
So that's a perfect segue into my next question,
which, you know, often thingsare actually pretty good.
They're working well, you'rehitting your goals, your
targets, your objectives.
But if you actually believe thateverything can always be made or
done better just as a generalphilosophy.
And, you know, I, I always usethe iPod story of the first iPod
you held in your hand.
(10:32):
It was, a pound and a half ofmetal and plastic with a gray
screen.
And it held 1,024 songs.
And it was the best thing youever had, but could you imagine
holding that.
It doesn't mean that what, whatwas good then was, was actually
not good.
It was great for the moment atthe time, but engineers and
innovators and executives keptsaying, you know, what, how do
(10:54):
we, how do we just constantlyrefine and make it that much?
Better for the future.
and to this day, we're stillseeing that improvement.
And so if you operate yourbusiness that way, it means, you
know, as a mentality, you'regonna try and, and tweak and to
your point, adjust things or, orfind those marginal changes.
So maybe.
Do you ever find yourself in asituation where you're like,
(11:16):
wow, you know, the team, theexecutives, the board,
everybody's happy, but I, Istill want to try something
different.
I, I think there's room forimprovement.
And how do you identify thoseareas that
Michael Roberts (11:26):
For most executives, as you know, you,
and, and for most people ingeneral, just we, we go to where
the problem is then we, we, wetry to fix things.
That's kinda, our nature is aswe come in and in business, as
I've observed, you know, me andothers that I know I'll, I'll
tell you.
(11:47):
Perspective on this questionkind of was, was informed by,
you know, a great,
Corby Fine (11:53):
you're not, you're not gonna get a ton of pushback
and pressure.
It's like, are you, are you, areyou nuts?
What are you talking about?
There's too much risk.
Versus the potential of, butlook how much more engaged we
can make our team look at thecustomer experience we can
improve and, and maybe makebetter financial gains.
Is there, is there a situationwhere you took the chance and
said, I'm gonna try and makesomething that better that on
the surface actually looks likeit's pumping along.
(12:14):
Great.
Michael Roberts (12:16):
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a really
interesting challenge, I thinkfor a great article that I read,
you know, probably more than 20years ago called nobody ever
gets credit for fixing problemsthat never happened.
Which is a, a great title by anarticle and you know, of the,
the ways to look at systems inorder to drive improvement and
(12:36):
in some ways it informed myperspective on.
On how things are always to becontinuously improved.
You know, there's always aninvestment in capabilities
that's needed, in order toimprove, you know, kinda actual
performance and whether there'sa performance gap or, or not,
improvement is, is somethingthat, that can be, can be
(12:59):
constant and, and designed intoa system.
And so in, in some ways Iactually don't accept the idea.
That you know, everything'sgoing well.
I, I kinda reject to thatpremise and, and one of the
things, you know, that's morerecent in terms of, management
thinking and, and operatingmodels is, is agile.
And agile, you know, kind of hasbuilt into it, a continuous
(13:23):
iteration on products or, orwhatever the actual process is
being, being applied to.
You know, in some ways I feellike, it's a great question, but
it doesn't to my mental model ofthe works over a of, of I, I
(13:46):
think there are some trapsthough.
where, where we can look at.
improvements or you can look atthe wrong solutions in order to
drive, you know, improvement.
And so you know, there are,there are, are so many
situations where we just kind ofeither take shortcuts or work
harder.
Rather than spending the timeinvestment or reinvestment in,
(14:06):
in, in capabilities or figuringout smarter ways to work.
But I think that's lesson for mehas understand the out the, the.
The challenge of, or the, the,the trap of working harder or
taking shortcuts and focus onreinvestment and, and working
smarter overall.
(14:27):
And that's, you know, somethingthat I, to, to just about to
just about everything that I,you know, kind I I touch or
interact with and in life andbusiness, it's understanding the
system and, and really figuringout how to reinvest in,
capabilities and to work smarteroverall.
Corby Fine (14:44):
Yeah, that's, it's great advice.
And I I just pulled up thearticle and I'm gonna I'm gonna
share it out with my network aswell.
Just note caveat.
It's like, it's really longeverybody, but I'm if, if
Michael says it's a good read,it's a good read, but I'm gonna
share it out.
I found a copy.
so I guess, you know, the, the,this, some of that maybe takes
me to my, third and final indepth question.
You're in an industry.
(15:05):
insurance not everybody reallyunderstands all of the
intricacies and the complexitiesthat go on in the insurance
business.
They see.
Mascots they see, uh, the, the,they it's, it is a good podcast.
I just listened to on why everyinsurance company has a mascot,
which we should talk about inanother
Michael Roberts (15:22):
Yeah.
Corby Fine (15:23):
But, you know, when you think about the trends, the
technologies, the productsMetLife doesn't bring in someone
like you to keep the status quoand per your philosophy that you
just expressed.
You're always trying to find.
Simple and complex things to dobetter.
So where, where is insurancegoing?
What are those trends?
Whatever you can tell that isn'tsecret sauce of the business
that might enlighten us tothink, Hey, that might apply to
(15:45):
my business too.
Michael Roberts (15:48):
Yeah.
I think, I think a couplethoughts here.
Cor so one, I think insurance isway a lot of the rest of
financial services in terms ofcustomer experience being, you
know, a new, you know, not new,but an emerging kind of
priority.
for the industry, Insuranceoverall has lagged in terms of
(16:10):
customer experience and even thetech that are creating great
customer experiences.
Haven't put the same sortpressure on the customer
experience that is you know,that happened other parts of
financials, the consumeroverall.
And so I think The consumer ismuch more powerful and, and
demanding in terms of insurers.
(16:36):
That's another trend, which is,has a, a Bri of a broader
implication for, for lots ofdifferent businesses beyond
insurance.
That you know, our, ourenvironment is becoming more
(16:57):
volatile.
And individuals are having tomanage risk kind of more
proactively their own risk aswell as risk, you know, for
their families.
And frankly, you know, postpandemic protection has become.
More important to to lots ofpeople.
And I think this idea ofprotection, as you know, core
(17:19):
versus ancillary I think willbecome something that, lots of
businesses are going to have toto contend.
And you, you see some businessescontending with it, you know,
in, in innovative ways, it'srise of insurance, a lot of
consumer business where you canyou product it's for, but it's
(17:44):
more broadly across differentecosystems.
You're seeing things.
You know, digital wellness andprotection solutions that are
being, adopted, significantlymore.
So people see, risks in the, inthe digital space, whether it's,
you know, identity theft, Orother sort of risks that they're
from a social perspective.
So I think, I think particularlyincrease we've that a pandemic.
(18:16):
And then I, I think the thirdthing in insurance that is, part
of, what we'll see in thefuture.
Is you know, I think a lot moreattention to generational
differences in, in perspectiveon what insurance can and should
provide part of this, I think isbased on demographics.
We're gonna live longer andlonger.
(18:36):
And so the sorts of things thatwe think about for protection
and retirement are gonna bedifferent.
Cause retirement is gonna lookdifferent.
And so I think longevity isgonna have a big impact, on lots
of industries.
And and the needs of people, youknow, kind of in these longer
lives.
And I think that's gonna, that'sgonna be an, an important shift
for, for the insurance business.
(18:56):
But I think, if your business isnot thinking about what
longevity means then you'regonna miss a gigantic
demographic trends.
Corby Fine (19:05):
Yeah.
The, the term embedded insurancehadn't really crossed my mind
until you just said it, but.
I just signed up for 122kilometer bike ride from
Vancouver to Whistler nextSeptember.
And it has two kilometers of ascent.
So it's like a big ride and theyoffered me for$20 and 40 cents
insurance on my, on my depositof a few hundred dollars to do
(19:29):
the ride.
And it would cover certain otherthings tied to travel, et
cetera.
And you know, I, in the sense ofa customer experience coming
back to your first point, I I'dbe, I'd be crazy not to take
that, thinking that it's 12months ahead.
I have no idea what my lifesituation's gonna be.
I don't even know if I'll beable to book a flight, get a
hotel, find a box to ship mybike, rent a bike.
(19:51):
There's so many factors ofunknown.
And, you know, you guys, as anindustry are so great at
forecasting, all of thosedifferent parameters of
potential risk and change, andthen offering it to me in a
simple high value, low costoffering that if everybody
didn't take that, that wassigning up, they'd be like
insane.
And so that whole notion ofembedding it, the digital, you
(20:15):
know, the digitization of theexperience.
in the moment decisioning and,and actually providing value
really made me feel like, wow,like that's a great customer
experience.
I, I would absolutely recommendthis race or this, you know, an
event to all of my networkbecause there's like no risk.
And
Michael Roberts (20:33):
Right.
Corby Fine (20:33):
about that in other areas, it's, it's a great model.
Michael Roberts (20:37):
It it it months.
And we have less confidence inlooks so reflects the
Corby Fine (20:55):
Exactly.
Well, listen explaining it to mewas great.
I, I completely, you know, seeand understand through both our
conversations and today'sinterview, why MetLife wants
someone like you running thehelm of that, future of
marketing, the future ofagility, the future of customer
experience Michael Roberts, thechief marketing officer of
MetLife.
(21:15):
I really appreciate you takingthe time to speak with me and,
and thanks so much for all ofyour insight.
Michael Roberts (21:21):
Thanks Corby.
It's.
It's great to speak with.
Corby Fine (21:23):
And enjoy the hockey season this year.
take care.
Michael Roberts (21:27):
I appreciate it.
Take care.
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