In this episode, I welcome two respected experts in the digital advertising space, Ben Wise and Jeremy Freedman, to explore the evolving landscape of digital advertising and the future of agency structures.
We start by discussing the current definition of digital advertising, noting its evolution beyond traditional online ads to encompass various channels like billboards, audio, and even in-video game ads. Ben suggests that dropping the term "digital" from advertising could benefit the industry, as advertising increasingly permeates all aspects of modern life.
The conversation turns to the role of chief digital officers in organizations, with Ben and Jeremy advocating for a shift towards a more consumer-centric approach rather than focusing solely on digital channels. They emphasize the importance of understanding consumer behavior and meeting them where they are, regardless of the platform.
Programmatic advertising is highlighted as a solution to simplify the complexities of reaching consumers across multiple channels. Jeremy explains that programmatic technology streamlines media buying and offers a more efficient way to target audiences.
Data-driven targeting is recognized as a powerful tool in advertising, but both guests stress the importance of creative messaging. They emphasize that while data can optimize targeting, effective creative remains essential for engaging consumers and driving results.
In the end, Ben and Jeremy assert that a balance between data-driven targeting and compelling creative is key to successful advertising campaigns. They highlight the need for continued innovation and adaptation in the ever-changing advertising landscape.
Listen in to hear the whole discussion.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Corby Fine (00:44):
I have spent the better part of the last 25 years
working in an ever changingspace.
Digital marketing, digitaladvertising, digital
transformation.
The reality is, is that it'sconstantly redefining itself,
and I think that's so much ofwhat attracts me and people like
(01:06):
me to the space is thisconstant.
Need to learn to adapt, toupdate, to train.
And that change is what drivesme.
It keeps me going.
It gets me excited, but it alsorequires that you have partners
and friends and colleagues inthe space that can fill in the
gaps and, and really createdialogue and help each other
(01:27):
out.
And that's something that Ithink this ecosystem has really,
really fostered is.
A great willingness for peopleto just help each other out
because of the fact that so muchchange is just impossible for
one individual to keep up with.
And one of those organizationsand groups of people that's
really good at helping us out,uh, are those at Google.
And I've had the opportunity andthe privilege of working with so
(01:51):
many great people in thatorganization over the years to
innovate and do some reallyinteresting things.
And I love the fact that I'vegot not just one, but two people
today that we can speak with.
Exactly about the changing andevolving landscape of digital
advertising and digitalmarketing.
Ben Wise, head of programmaticmedia at Google Canada.
15 year industry veteran, again,like me, you know, we've been
(02:14):
around a little bit, successivesales and leadership roles at
Google.
Currently leading theprogrammatic media space within
the large agencies and brandsacross Canada.
ultimately one of the gentlemenresponsible for the future of
media buying in this country andreally laying the foundation
and, and creating such greateducation and engagement across
the space.
Jeremy Friedman, head ofprogrammatic media, agency site
(02:37):
as well at Google Canada.
most of the last decade, uh, andacross his overall, career in
the programmatic media space.
different organizations, uh,many I've worked with in the
past.
But, currently Jeremy's leadinga team of account execs and
account managers really helpingorganizations understand how to
take advantage of theirprogrammatic efficiency, and
really driving their, theirstrategies.
(02:58):
So, guys, welcome to the podcasttoday.
Jeremy Freedman (03:01):
Yeah.
Thanks for having us Corp.
Ben Wise (03:02):
I'd like you to come to all my meetings and introduce
me, and that was great.
Thanks.
Corby Fine (03:06):
It's rare that I get a chance to have, two people who
are both respected in the space.
And, and it's great because Ithink there's just so many
questions that a lot of thepeople that I, I have in my
audience, are constantly tryingto answer.
And I, I think the big one rightnow to maybe start off is,
today's definition of digitaladvertising, there's so much
(03:27):
going on around data, audiences,context, programmatic.
What would you, or how would youcurrently define the space of
digital advertising?
What's in and maybe what's outof that definition?
Ben Wise (03:42):
Yeah, I, I love that question because I think it is
something that has changed somuch.
Um, and honestly, I think if westopped using the word digital
before the word advertising,that might be a, a, a net
benefit for the industry.
For a long time, it was ads onwebsites and then we added in
ads on phones and ads ontablets, and now it's also ads
on billboards and ads on myearphones and ads on my TV
(04:04):
screen.
It's, it's pretty mucheverywhere and.
This idea of digital advertisingversus traditional advertising
is two separate things.
You know, I, I think we're kindof at an inflection point where,
where they are no longer twoseparate things.
And I think there are benefitsof all of those formats and all
of those channels.
You, you have more ways to findyour users than you ever did
before, which is a greatopportunity for advertisers.
(04:26):
There's more technicalcapabilities in terms of better
measurement, better audiencetargeting, better contextual
targeting, which again, greatopportunity for advertisers.
Uh, but also presents challengesin terms in terms of the
fragmentation as, as you weresaying in the introduction, the,
the challenges of keeping upwith the fast moving industry,
because there's so much in itnow.
I think digital advertising nowis really just advertising all,
(04:49):
all advertising nearly is, isdigital except for, you know,
the physical newspaper that mydad still reads.
Corby Fine (04:56):
It kind of aligns to this notion of do organizations
really need a.
Head of digital marketing or achief digital officer because
the legacy definition was veryconstrained and separated from
other channels or types ofmarketing.
But if we actually start tothink about, it's just the way
(05:17):
it is.
Then to your point, you might beable to remove that individual
word and and focus.
But I guess the one line yousaid, which was very interesting
to maybe elaborate on, is it'sabout finding people anywhere.
And so when you talk about audioand you talk about consuming
reading and video and images andall of these different assets,
(05:39):
does that actually addcomplexity to the definition or
does it simplify it?
Ben Wise (05:45):
I think it adds complexity to the tactics and
the execution, but probablysimplifies the definition.
But I think, you know, goingback definition, I what would be
better to your point of like thechief digital officer is if that
was the chief.
Consumer or customer officer orthe, the voice of the customer
because, you know, as we weresaying, it's really about
(06:05):
finding users where they are.
We have all of these channelsand getting the right things in
front of them, and getting ridof some of that kind of legacy
way of thinking.
we kind of divided the industryand a lot of companies kind of
set up their teams around thesetechnical things as opposed to
the way that consumers operate.
And I think that is somethingthat we need to rethink.
Jeremy Freedman (06:27):
Yeah.
I think also what's really neatabout that is it sounds so
complex with so many channels,with so many different places to
find people, but that's exactlywhy programmatic was invented to
simplify all of that.
So 10 years ago when theprogrammatic space was really
getting started, the problem itwas trying to solve.
Is that media planners, mediabuyers had to have so many
different touchpoint with somany different publishers.
(06:49):
And when programmatic came, andyou know, a really simple
definition of just buying mediathrough the use of technology,
and now that definition isexpanded to include all of these
other channels that Ben wasmentioning over the years.
The one I'm most excited for isads within video games, and I
think that that's gonna be a bigthing within the next couple
years, and I can think of howthat's going to influence my own
(07:09):
buying patterns.
Ben Wise (07:11):
buying patterns.
of ads or buying patterns of,
Corby Fine (07:14):
of video games.
Ben Wise (07:15):
as a gamer.
Jeremy Freedman (07:16):
it, you know, play playing an NB 2K game and
getting a courtsideadvertisement.
Yeah, that's right.
Corby Fine (07:21):
so as the father of a 16-year-old video game semi
addict, I'm not sure I likethat.
Is that gonna be something Ihave to worry about?
Jeremy Freedman (07:31):
Uh, you know, I think that it is just like
watching any sports event.
You know, in a hockey game, nowyou've got the digital boards
behind the players as opposed tojust those static images on a
basketball court.
You know, the ads that end up onthe court aren't actually there.
They're all just digital based,and I think that translating
that into a virtual world isactually a really interesting
(07:51):
experience.
And it's not intrusive becauseit feels exactly like you're
watching one of those sportingevents.
Now, the types of ads that getshown in the, in the way that
your, you know, your 16-year-oldson interacts with it.
That's a really interestingrabbit hole of a question.
But in terms of intrusivenessand versus nativity, I think
that there's actually reallynice synergies there, at least
(08:11):
when you think of sports games.
Ben Wise (08:13):
Yeah, I, I think it's actually probably going to be an
improvement.
So you, if you've got all theads on your, your games that you
play on your phone, you know,when I'm playing Candy Crush or
whatever, or my kids are playingCandy Crush, I swear it's not
me.
You know, you get this biginterstitial and it, it's
effective because it's right inmy face, but it, it's not built
into it in a more subtle,natural way.
(08:34):
And so thinking of people whoare consuming those ads is
probably gonna be a much, muchbetter experience for them than
a lot of what they're used togrowing up with.
Games on phones now.
Corby Fine (08:44):
So I guess the big question then is, are we
currently outta state in themarket?
Where the majority of theadvertising opportunities that I
would want to take advantage ofas a chief marketing or chief
advertising or chief customerofficer, are they now technology
enabled to the point whereprogrammatic does cover all of
those angles?
Jeremy Freedman (09:06):
I think it covers most of the angles.
I think the last big one, andyou know we're starting to see
it a little bit, is aroundtraditional TV advertising
coming into the programmaticspace.
Obviously connected TV has hasblown up the last couple years,
and that's totally addressableby programmatic, but there
aren't very commonly used waysof inserting programmatic ads
(09:26):
onto traditional broadcasts.
And I think that we've startedto see that a little bit in the
us.
I'm sure it will be in Canadasoon.
And so I feel like that's kindof the last big whale, otherwise
out of home, accessible throughprogrammatic audio ads,
accessible through programmatic,obviously connected tv, video
display, mobile, all those otherpieces.
Ben Wise (09:47):
Yeah, even the, the big giant screen in a movie
theater, like the, the, thepre-roll ads for, uh, before a
movie, those are, uh, becomingaddressable through
programmatic.
So, and it, it literally isalmost everything now.
Corby Fine (10:01):
So given the.
Reach and findability of myaudiences is now technically
enabled through thisprogrammatic ecosystem to pretty
much any kind of deployment orscreen or wherever.
I wanna find how important nowis the difference between data.
So as an organization in termsof.
(10:23):
Understanding my prospects, mytargets, my customers, and
leveraging that informationwithin these programmatically
enabled channels and platformsversus the creative and the
message and the offer, and themore.
I'll say, uh, wrong word, buttraditional elements of
advertising so data versus thepot of creative and messaging
(10:46):
and context.
What are you seeing in that sortof, uh, that space right now?
Jeremy Freedman (10:51):
I don't think it's an either or.
I think it's really acombination of those two things
that lead to success.
Data, you know, for years hashad a lot of hype behind it in
the ability to find users wherethey are online, speak to
specific customers.
I.
Um, that space is evolvingrapidly with all of the changes
to the ways browsers, allowcookie storage, privacy
(11:13):
regulations around the world.
So that is kind of one of themost, the most influx elements
of, I think, the digitaladvertising industry.
What's never changed all of thistime though, is the importance
of good creative.
You could be speaking tosomebody and it might be the
exact right person for yourcustomer, but if the message
that you're giving them isn'tthe right message and it isn't
(11:33):
being told in an entertaining oreffective way, then you know it,
it's just not gonna work.
So I think that the crutch thatpeople sometimes use is, okay,
well we've got all of thisamazing technology, gets us in
the right places at the righttime, and then we kind of forget
the basics of.
Okay, listen, the creative stillhas to be good.
Uh, I still have to not want toskip that ad or I have to take
(11:55):
notice of that ad.
So I think it really is acombination of, as you said,
what we might have calledtraditional elements and some of
the technology based, pieces.
Ben Wise (12:05):
I, every few years I feel like there's a new study
that looks at that exactquestion.
So anywhere between, you know,50 to 70% ish I've seen, um,
that says, you know, the ROI orthe impact of your marketing is,
let's say 50%.
Based on the creative messageand the creative elements that
you put in front of them.
So regardless of how advancedyour technology and your
(12:25):
targeting and your measurementis, the creative element is
always going to be essential.
What I think is interestingthough, is like moving forward,
the more that we can build someof that technology and data and
targeting and all that stuffthat we do, and almost take for
granted on the media side, butuse that to better inform some
of the creative.
I think is a really bigopportunity to make that other
(12:46):
50% on the creative side workeven harder.
Um, I think if you were to askanybody that doesn't work in the
industry, Hey, do you ever clickon an ad?
They'd all say, no.
I'm, I'm perfectly capable oftuning out every ad I ever see
yet.
People in the industry know thatthat's obviously not true.
Ads are seen, they're clickedon.
They're impactful, but peopledon't think of them as ads
(13:06):
because they're relevant and,and I think when you make a
really good, relevant ad that'sentertaining.
Well targeted, well timed.
I don't see it as an ad, as auser.
I see it as just good content,and maybe I'll read the content.
I'll click on the content andI'll be completely oblivious to
the fact that I just clicked onan ad and continue thinking
that.
I never do.
Corby Fine (13:27):
So I'm gonna get to the relevant thing'cause I think
that's an important word.
But first I'm gonna bring in thehot topic of the day, which is
really all about generative ai.
And the reason that it makessense to talk about now is you
both just said something reallyinteresting, which was this.
Value of creative.
Okay.
Check.
We all buy into the fact thatthe, the message, and if looked
(13:49):
at as value add and as content,as entertaining and educating
and in, you know, exciting isgoing to drive some sort of
engagement.
And at the same time, the moredata and understanding of the
prospect, the lead, the, thetrigger points, right?
So if you think about a futureof the neuroscience knowledge of
what makes people tick, mashedup with.
(14:12):
The markers of identification ofwho they actually are at the
other end of the machine.
And I'm not talking like gettingto creepy biometric stuff, but
like having a good probabilityplus an understanding of what
from a neurological perspectivemakes people tick.
Now you're into this world of,oh, I got a lot of different
ways to create this stuff, toengage with all of these
(14:34):
different either individuals orsmall segments.
One of the promises ofgenerative AI is this ability to
mass produce, mass create, anddo things and more efficiently.
So my question is, do weactually see the influx and the
increased use of this kind oftechnology taking advantage of
(14:55):
that mass amount of data, massamount of channel distribution,
therefore mass need for output?
And who's doing it well?
Like what?
What is ethical legal?
Relevant and actually working,and I don't know if you guys
have any examples of that.
Jeremy Freedman (15:14):
I mean, I think that we're at a really big
inflection point, and I thinkthat right now a lot of the
possibilities are a lot largerthan the things that are
actually.
Happening in market.
I think we're at the verybeginning of this, and I think
the way that you kind of brokethat down, you know, if we
rewound and did a five yearsago, six years ago, seven years
ago, version of that, we'd betalking about dynamic creative,
(15:34):
right?
Changing our different creativemessaging based on the user at
the other end.
And I think that what generativeAI will allow us to do is just
get so much better at that.
Because as you said, we'll havemass produced creative mass
variation.
A lot less of the, of the kindof cumbersomeness of that
process in the past that wassuch a barrier to entry for so
(15:56):
many brands because of the lackof ability to get that many
variations and also to pivot onthe fly in terms of what was
working and what wasn't.
Corby Fine (16:04):
So Ben, do you think that in that world of.
Mass produced, automated,creative, tied to really deep
knowledge of the individual.
Are we as marketers actually incontrol of the marketing, or is
this like a world of deep fakeswhere everything is essentially
like kind of within theparameters of allowable
(16:24):
messaging?
So personalized.
I'm, I, as a marketer, I'm outof control like this.
Like I get political ads, that'sa whole other thing.
But if you're talking about aburger or a baby diaper, or
dishwasher, soap.
Is it deep fake or is itadvertising if it's created
automatically based on all thesesignals?
Ben Wise (16:43):
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting question.
I, I think it's probably a waysfrom getting to that level yet.
Let's say the medium term, thenext few years, I think where
we're at is AI is not going toreplace the creative spark that
humans can bring to advertising.
That great idea that that corecreative concept.
(17:07):
The storytelling, that's still auniquely human thing.
10 years from now, who knows?
But right now, I would saythat's still very much a, a
uniquely human thing.
Where AI comes in is then beingable to take that creative
genius from the human and figureout those little tweaks for, you
know, a rainy day or a sunnyday, or, you know, take that
(17:29):
great idea from a TV ad, turn itinto a horizontal or vertical ad
for, for TikTok and, and aYouTube short.
or take what are the best imagesout of that creative video to
become your display ads or yoursocial ads.
Uh, and so I, I think, you know,and I think you mentioned this
in the question of like, howwill this impact the wild
(17:50):
fragmentation of options?
I think that makes it much moreaccessible to most advertisers
because you can make a fewassets based on your creative
concept and turn them into theassets you need across
everything.
But it.
Is still a long ways away fromreplacing that human element.
so as an example, I actually, I,I write a monthly newsletter and
(18:10):
I always, I do use Gemini andchat GPT to help me write it.
it requires a lot of editing orI take my writing and I use it
to do a little bit of editingand I'll pull out little, little
bits here and there it is.
And I'm not an exceptionalwriter by any means.
It is still a ways fromreplacing me as a writer, let
alone professional copywriters.
Corby Fine (18:31):
Yeah, I've been testing a bunch of different,
uh, writing platforms and therethere's no question you get
different output, which meansthat in some regard it's good
because it shows that there'ssort of independence of thought
in all of these differentmodels.
It's not like one thing tryingto take over the world, but at
the same time, uh, I also likethat some of them.
Like Grammarly for instance, areactually at a pro level, knowing
(18:54):
their audience and knowing it'sa student element.
Still trying to have a lack ofplagiarism won't even actually
create things.
It's just about editing.
And so I do think you think itfrom the perspective of, am I
looking to generate or am Ilooking to enhance, make better
and personalize?
Which kind of comes down to thatnext word.
And we talked about before aboutrelevance and yes, I do believe
(19:15):
that.
The ability to create somethingthat's meaningful for me as an
individual.
There's a lot of differentangles.
There's a lot of different data.
I might be responsive based onthe TV show, I'm watching the
YouTube show, I'm watching thebook I'm reading, and it might
just be in innate in me as tothe values and the beliefs that
I have, irrespective of what I'mdoing, right.
Sometimes while you're, whileyou're skiing, you're focused on
(19:36):
skiing and you're aware of thosethings, and sometimes when
you're watching a TV show,you're still thinking of skiing.
So the question is, Is relevancekind of back, is it the hot
word?
We were so focused on granulardata and very specifically
constructed audiences for awhile in the programmatic space.
Where is relevance now and uh,over the next couple of years in
(19:57):
terms of budgets?
What are you seeing?
Ben Wise (19:59):
Yeah, that's a great question and I think relevance
for a long time, I would say haskind of been king of, of
advertising and but, but how youactually execute that has
changed over time.
So, you know, five or 10 yearsago, maybe earlier days of
programmatic, it was all this,this wonderful vision of all
(20:21):
this data.
I can hit you with the exactright thing, the exact right
time, and I'm gonna fragment myaudiences and segment so, so
specifically that like, oh, whenI catch a Honda Odyssey driver
on a snowy day, that is also aTuesday afternoon when the least
play in Toronto and someone'swithin five kilometers of the
Scotiabank arena.
This is the message for them.
(20:42):
that was really specific.
You can't see'cause there's novideo of a jar is firming his
brow possibly because he hatesthe leaves.
and, and to your point, I, Ithink maybe we got too granular
in a way that probably didn'tactually impact the results of
the campaign.
It's, it's, I think it's easy tosay we should do this because we
have the data that makes itcapable to do that, but it
(21:02):
doesn't necessarily makestrategic sense.
I would say over the last fewyears we've really seen a rise
in.
more guaranteed deals goingthrough programmatic.
and I think that is much morelike contextually focused.
Although, you know, the foundingof Google search ads, that was
all around contextual relevance.
I, I think that the key for anadvertiser marketer now is where
do you find the balance betweenbringing that data, bringing the
(21:25):
relevance or the contextualrelevance of the moment, um, and
what they're doing regardless ofmaybe all that data you have
about them, but also applyingsome like.
Human judgment and common sensethat yes, I can segment this
list of a million users down tothis group of eight people that
share these attributes, but isthat gonna actually drive
results?
And I think that's one of thethings I'm excited about AI is
(21:47):
that it will or should figureout what are those things that
actually impact the behavior andhave direct causation to the
output of your campaign.
So it's easy for everyone says,oh, you know, when it's raining,
you wanna advertise umbrellas.
Corby Fine (22:04):
Or food delivery services.
Ben Wise (22:06):
yeah, there there are a million things like that that
may or may not be true when wejust kind of use our gut
instinct, which might be righthalf the time.
Maybe that's generous.
Uh, but we never have theanalysis to, to back that up,
and there's just too manyfactors out there.
So we just randomly pick some,uh, and I think using more
automation AI tools will get usto the point where.
(22:27):
We can figure out what are thosereally driving factors behind
performance.
Um, and really lean into thoseand maybe ignore some of those
other things that we thoughtmight be relevant'cause they
kind of make sense, but don'tactually have any impact.
Corby Fine (22:40):
So Jeremy, I was more interested in your opinion
before the Leaf thing, so I, Idon't, no, I'm kidding.
Jeremy Freedman (22:46):
My parents are from Montreal.
You know, I come by it honestly.
Corby Fine (22:49):
what, what's your take on the, the whole relevance
factor?
I.
Jeremy Freedman (22:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the thing that we've
always talked about in theprogrammatic space, the, the,
thing that's always been sofancy and, and highlighted and
monopolized the conversation is,is you know, the audience
targeting data story.
But I really don't think thatthat was ever all a programmatic
in a previous role.
I, I ran education at Google andwhen I'd asked people for the
definition of programmatic,inevitably it was, we've got a
(23:15):
list of audiences and then weget target those audiences.
The reality is contextualtargeting has always been a
giant piece of the programmaticspace, and the tools have gotten
better over the years.
And so now when we're kind of atthis really big change point in
the industry with privacy, withcookie list, with all of that
stuff coming, audience targetingisn't going to look like it did
(23:37):
for the last 10 years.
It already doesn't it, it'salready changing.
And when we go and we do thesekind of privacy, are you ready
for cookie deprecation sessionswith customers?
I'm always surprised by thevariance in the way that people
perceive what they're currentlydoing and how that matches up
with reality.
Really simple question to abrand or to an agency is, you
know, what percentage of yourads right now do you think are
(24:00):
running on remarketing?
And you know, sometimes I'veseen customers say, oh, probably
about 80, 90%, and the answerhas been six.
Sometimes I've seen the inverse.
But I think the reality of thesituation is just like the first
question, success in digitaladvertising success in
programmatic is always about acombination of different things.
And so now we're at a placewhere systems, DSPs buying
(24:23):
platforms are intelligent enoughto read a webpage and determine
the context of that webpage.
If I want to target pages thatspecifically mention the Maple
Leaf, whether they're on asports website or just an
article about.
You know, the worst hockey fansin Canada, I guess I'm gonna
get, I'm gonna get some hatemail for that.
Um, the tool is smart enough tofigure that out, and that's
(24:45):
still targeting an audience, butit's not targeting an audience
list.
And then also, you know, we'reat this, as we said, inflection
point on ai.
AI's always been foundationaland programmatic.
One of the main things inprogrammatic has always been
about helping the systemunderstand what your goal is.
Whether that's a cost per click,cost per conversion, a specific
(25:05):
return on ad spend goal, andthen having the system use its
computer brain to optimize.
And 10 years ago, when I wasgetting started in this space,
or I guess 12 years ago now, youknow, there was a lot of ego
with us, ad ops people.
We didn't want to turn on theai, we wanted to do it
ourselves.
We thought that we were smarterthan the computer.
And I think, you know, a decadelater, a decade plus later, I
(25:26):
don't think that that's trueanymore.
I think the systems have gottenso much more intelligent.
Human optimization really doespale in comparison.
Corby Fine (25:35):
It's well put.
and I won't hold the hockeything against you, but hate mail
will definitely be coming.
Um, so we talked a lot about theremoval of the word digital.
All of these channels are nowenabled.
We've got context, we've gotaudiences, we've got data.
We've got AI capabilities tomass produce and target and
build creative.
We understand the value of bothsides of the, the coin in terms
(25:58):
of proper targeting and propercontext.
Everything needs to be relevant.
Okay?
So a new advertiser shows up atGoogle's door, not just for the
free lunch and says to you, Ihave a hundred bucks.
How am I supposed to think aboutdistribution of that money in
terms of percentages totechnology, to data, to media
(26:23):
itself, to learnings andinsights?
There's just so many options.
Where do we start?
Jeremy Freedman (26:29):
I think the first question would be, what's
the objective?
It sounds really, really simple,but I think that there's always
a risk with any technology ofthinking that technology in
itself is the answer, and it'snot.
It's a tool.
It's meant to help you achievewhatever your objective is.
So I think that that's the veryfirst question off the bat,
followed by what, what type ofdata does that advertiser have?
(26:52):
What are the creative assets?
Have they been built yet?
Is that something that, youknow, needs kind of prep work
and strategy and advice?
Or are we kind of ready to go?
Are there any existingagreements with publishers or
vendors?
So we kind of go through thatlist and really try to
understand what is somebodytrying to achieve on our
platform.
I.
Ben Wise (27:10):
And then once we kind of have that side, I, I think,
you know, going back to theoriginal.
Or, or one of the earlierquestions around like chief
Digital Officer, chief CustomerOfficer, I would ask a million
questions to understand whatthey know about their consumer.
'cause I think, you know, youhave an objective and that needs
to be grounded in what yourconsumer is looking for.
(27:32):
What is the value you bring toyour consumer?
What are the behaviors?
What do we know about yourconsumers?
Um, and, and try to take thatconsumer centric view.
so before we had anyrecommendations for anybody, we
probably would've, you know,finished the free lunch, of just
asking them questions.
So, Corey, we're not gonna makeyou answer all those questions.
We'll make a few assumptions, tokeep things simple.
(27:54):
So this podcast doesn't end upat like three hours long, which
it could, let's say for the, forthe sake of argument, we're,
we're talking specific toprogrammatic and, and looking.
Specifically in, you know, theDSP that we work on DV 360 at
Google.
so, you know, a little bit ofour Google bias there, but you
get what you get.
Um, yeah, it does.
We'd like to think so.
Thank you Corey.
(28:15):
Um, I think maybe we could takeit like from two different
angles.
'cause a lot of advertisers willcome and they'll have a, you
know, a lower funnel, moreperformance oriented campaign,
or sometimes they'll have aupper funnel, more kind of brand
awareness type campaign.
And let's, let's look at thosetwo.
Maybe a bit separately.
Um, so if it's lower funnel, Ithink from a programmatic
perspective, we're gonna belooking at a much heavier
(28:36):
waiting on display than youwould be on some other formats
like video or audio orbillboards or whatever.
You know, as a starting point, Iwould say in and around 50, 60%
as a starting point of that isgonna go towards display.
And then I think you still wantsome other formats.
I think understanding theinterplay between, a mid.
(28:56):
Funnel consideration tactic andupper funnel awareness tactic
because that does flow down to,to getting users into the funnel
who then purchase.
and you know, if they had datahistory of what that looks like,
you know, you'd go a little bitdeeper into that.
Um, I think within the world ofdisplay, there's all sorts of
options.
You know, lower funnel, I'd bereally keen to use a lot of
(29:16):
native ads.
I think those, you know, we, wehear a lot of really positive
feedback from our clients on howeffective those are.
on the lower funnel, again, alittle bit dependent on what
kind of assets you have.
and then when you kind of getinto that other, you know, 30 or
40%, start to think of, videoaction campaigns, skippable ads,
things like that.
Audio ads.
I really like podcast ads.
(29:37):
I think they really res, and I'mnot just saying that'cause this
is a podcast.
I don't know.
Do you sell ads on this?
Do we?
Um,
Corby Fine (29:44):
No, I do this out of the love of educating the market
Ben Wise (29:46):
uh, what a guy.
Yeah,
Jeremy Freedman (29:48):
What a beautiful sentiment.
Ben Wise (29:50):
Until you hit a threshold, in which case we're
talking monetization and we'llsell your ads all day, Corby.
But I, I do think, you know,podcast ads from kind of that,
that mid funnel perspective doreally well.
and then depending on how muchyou put into that, I would also
consider maybe some more upperfunnel awareness.
again, depending on the, thesize of that budget.
then I would want to go a littlebit deeper on what your
(30:11):
measurement looks like.
So are we measuring to, youknow, is it number of
acquisitions, is it a cost peracquisition, is it a return on
ad spend?
Um, depending on their data setup, I'd love to be a little more
advanced than those types ofthings, which I'd say are
probably more media metrics.
But what is like a, a businessmetric of profitability or, or
revenue that might be a littlebit more important?
(30:33):
Thinking of like the way this,of the CMO is gonna be looking
at the business and can we setup.
Some kind of customized biddingsolutions, in the platform to
help you optimize and measuretowards, that more specific
business outcome.
so lots of different things wecould do there.
and then obviously what doesthat cadence look like on an
ongoing basis to optimize,adjust, and tweak as you, as you
(30:57):
go through the campaign?
Jeremy Freedman (31:00):
What's interesting about that is I bet
you that that answer would looktotally different in 12 to 18
months.
'cause now that Google hasproducts like P max and Demand
Gen, a lot of that strategy workis starting to get offloaded
into the system, into the ai,into the computer's algorithm to
figure out budget allocationacross these various channels.
(31:20):
So I think that we're alsoseeing this kind of bifurcation
in the industry.
Where now there are tools totake all that complexity
completely out of it for a freshadvertiser, for a small
business, for a medium business.
But we also still have toolsthat allow, you know, intense
flexibility that Ben describedfor a more strategically,
established customer.
Ben Wise (31:40):
Yeah.
I think that's such aninteresting link to the earlier
part of the conversation of likethe human element that can't be
replaced by AI of.
What is your, your brand about?
What is your strategy?
What's the creative idea?
What do you know about yourcustomer?
And then when it comes to maybesome of those more data heavy
pieces of like what is the rightallocation?
What is the, the bidding, how dowe optimize that?
(32:02):
Things that happen at a level ofdata that we are not capable of
doing as humans.
That's the kind of thing thatmoves over to the, to the
machines and the ai, and youkind of get the best of both
worlds.
Bring those together, I think.
Corby Fine (32:14):
Unaided plug.
I'm running our first p maxcampaign right now, so we can
follow up on that later.
But it is, uh, it is definitelyallowing us as an organization
and me as an advertiser to.
To your point, simplify theamount of work I need to do and
trust in the machine to somedegree.
Uh, and so far, so good.
but we'll, we'll have a separateconversation on that.
(32:35):
and I think the two things thatI wanna highlight in all of that
was, one, know your objective.
Why are you even having this ahundred dollars allocation
conversation and two.
Be prepared to measure it at theend of the day.
And again, measurement from theperspective of very explicit
lead generation filled in aform, bought something all the
way to more inferred, softerkind of measurement KPIs around
(32:57):
brand lift and recognition andconsideration.
But I.
You don't know why you'regetting into something and you
don't know what you're gonnaactually tell your organization,
your boss, your clients, yourwhoever, your investors.
At the end of the day, you havea bigger problem.
And the technology, to yourpoint Jeremy, it's just
technology.
It's not gonna solve anything.
so, you know, I reallyappreciate that it was very
detailed and obviously clientsare gonna talk to you in more
(33:19):
specificity, and that fiveminute or 10 minute answer
becomes much, much, much
Ben Wise (33:24):
yeah.
yeah.
And most clients aren't comingin saying, this is our first
campaign.
They've got all sorts ofbenchmark data, what's worked
than it, and it's, it's muchmore about the ongoing tweaking
and optimization and improvementfor, for most people then kind
of that blank slate.
Although the blank slate isdefinitely a, a fun exercise to
try.
Corby Fine (33:41):
Awesome.
well, Jeremy Friedman, Ben Wise,both, in charge of programmatic
within Google Canada, helpingadvertisers, marketers, agencies
across the country really takefull advantage of.
All of the things we talkedabout today and, and again, over
the next 12 to 18 months, a lotmore to come.
So thank you both for being withme and really appreciate your
insights.
Jeremy Freedman (34:01):
Thanks so much for having us.
Ben Wise (34:03):
Thank you.
Corgis is fun.
I have spent the better part of the last 25 years
working in an ever changingspace.
Digital marketing, digitaladvertising, digital
transformation.
The reality is, is that it'sconstantly redefining itself,
and I think that's so much ofwhat attracts me and people like
(01:06):
me to the space is thisconstant.
Need to learn to adapt, toupdate, to train.
And that change is what drivesme.
It keeps me going.
It gets me excited, but it alsorequires that you have partners
and friends and colleagues inthe space that can fill in the
gaps and, and really createdialogue and help each other
(01:27):
out.
And that's something that Ithink this ecosystem has really,
really fostered is.
A great willingness for peopleto just help each other out
because of the fact that so muchchange is just impossible for
one individual to keep up with.
And one of those organizationsand groups of people that's
really good at helping us out,uh, are those at Google.
And I've had the opportunity andthe privilege of working with so
(01:51):
many great people in thatorganization over the years to
innovate and do some reallyinteresting things.
And I love the fact that I'vegot not just one, but two people
today that we can speak with.
Exactly about the changing andevolving landscape of digital
advertising and digitalmarketing.
Ben Wise, head of programmaticmedia at Google Canada.
15 year industry veteran, again,like me, you know, we've been
(02:14):
around a little bit, successivesales and leadership roles at
Google.
Currently leading theprogrammatic media space within
the large agencies and brandsacross Canada.
ultimately one of the gentlemenresponsible for the future of
media buying in this country andreally laying the foundation
and, and creating such greateducation and engagement across
the space.
Jeremy Friedman, head ofprogrammatic media, agency site
(02:37):
as well at Google Canada.
most of the last decade, uh, andacross his overall, career in
the programmatic media space.
different organizations, uh,many I've worked with in the
past.
But, currently Jeremy's leadinga team of account execs and
account managers really helpingorganizations understand how to
take advantage of theirprogrammatic efficiency, and
really driving their, theirstrategies.
(02:58):
So, guys, welcome to the podcasttoday.
Jeremy Freedman (03:01):
Yeah.
Thanks for having us Corp.
Ben Wise (03:02):
I'd like you to come to all my meetings and introduce
me, and that was great.
Thanks.
Corby Fine (03:06):
It's rare that I get a chance to have, two people who
are both respected in the space.
And, and it's great because Ithink there's just so many
questions that a lot of thepeople that I, I have in my
audience, are constantly tryingto answer.
And I, I think the big one rightnow to maybe start off is,
today's definition of digitaladvertising, there's so much
(03:27):
going on around data, audiences,context, programmatic.
What would you, or how would youcurrently define the space of
digital advertising?
What's in and maybe what's outof that definition?
Ben Wise (03:42):
Yeah, I, I love that question because I think it is
something that has changed somuch.
Um, and honestly, I think if westopped using the word digital
before the word advertising,that might be a, a, a net
benefit for the industry.
For a long time, it was ads onwebsites and then we added in
ads on phones and ads ontablets, and now it's also ads
on billboards and ads on myearphones and ads on my TV
(04:04):
screen.
It's, it's pretty mucheverywhere and.
This idea of digital advertisingversus traditional advertising
is two separate things.
You know, I, I think we're kindof at an inflection point where,
where they are no longer twoseparate things.
And I think there are benefitsof all of those formats and all
of those channels.
You, you have more ways to findyour users than you ever did
before, which is a greatopportunity for advertisers.
(04:26):
There's more technicalcapabilities in terms of better
measurement, better audiencetargeting, better contextual
targeting, which again, greatopportunity for advertisers.
Uh, but also presents challengesin terms in terms of the
fragmentation as, as you weresaying in the introduction, the,
the challenges of keeping upwith the fast moving industry,
because there's so much in itnow.
I think digital advertising nowis really just advertising all,
(04:49):
all advertising nearly is, isdigital except for, you know,
the physical newspaper that mydad still reads.
Corby Fine (04:56):
It kind of aligns to this notion of do organizations
really need a.
Head of digital marketing or achief digital officer because
the legacy definition was veryconstrained and separated from
other channels or types ofmarketing.
But if we actually start tothink about, it's just the way
(05:17):
it is.
Then to your point, you might beable to remove that individual
word and and focus.
But I guess the one line yousaid, which was very interesting
to maybe elaborate on, is it'sabout finding people anywhere.
And so when you talk about audioand you talk about consuming
reading and video and images andall of these different assets,
(05:39):
does that actually addcomplexity to the definition or
does it simplify it?
Ben Wise (05:45):
I think it adds complexity to the tactics and
the execution, but probablysimplifies the definition.
But I think, you know, goingback definition, I what would be
better to your point of like thechief digital officer is if that
was the chief.
Consumer or customer officer orthe, the voice of the customer
because, you know, as we weresaying, it's really about
(06:05):
finding users where they are.
We have all of these channelsand getting the right things in
front of them, and getting ridof some of that kind of legacy
way of thinking.
we kind of divided the industryand a lot of companies kind of
set up their teams around thesetechnical things as opposed to
the way that consumers operate.
And I think that is somethingthat we need to rethink.
Jeremy Freedman (06:27):
Yeah.
I think also what's really neatabout that is it sounds so
complex with so many channels,with so many different places to
find people, but that's exactlywhy programmatic was invented to
simplify all of that.
So 10 years ago when theprogrammatic space was really
getting started, the problem itwas trying to solve.
Is that media planners, mediabuyers had to have so many
different touchpoint with somany different publishers.
(06:49):
And when programmatic came, andyou know, a really simple
definition of just buying mediathrough the use of technology,
and now that definition isexpanded to include all of these
other channels that Ben wasmentioning over the years.
The one I'm most excited for isads within video games, and I
think that that's gonna be a bigthing within the next couple
years, and I can think of howthat's going to influence my own
(07:09):
buying patterns.
Ben Wise (07:11):
buying patterns.
of ads or buying patterns of,
Corby Fine (07:14):
of video games.
Ben Wise (07:15):
as a gamer.
Jeremy Freedman (07:16):
it, you know, play playing an NB 2K game and
getting a courtsideadvertisement.
Yeah, that's right.
Corby Fine (07:21):
so as the father of a 16-year-old video game semi
addict, I'm not sure I likethat.
Is that gonna be something Ihave to worry about?
Jeremy Freedman (07:31):
Uh, you know, I think that it is just like
watching any sports event.
You know, in a hockey game, nowyou've got the digital boards
behind the players as opposed tojust those static images on a
basketball court.
You know, the ads that end up onthe court aren't actually there.
They're all just digital based,and I think that translating
that into a virtual world isactually a really interesting
(07:51):
experience.
And it's not intrusive becauseit feels exactly like you're
watching one of those sportingevents.
Now, the types of ads that getshown in the, in the way that
your, you know, your 16-year-oldson interacts with it.
That's a really interestingrabbit hole of a question.
But in terms of intrusivenessand versus nativity, I think
that there's actually reallynice synergies there, at least
(08:11):
when you think of sports games.
Ben Wise (08:13):
Yeah, I, I think it's actually probably going to be an
improvement.
So you, if you've got all theads on your, your games that you
play on your phone, you know,when I'm playing Candy Crush or
whatever, or my kids are playingCandy Crush, I swear it's not
me.
You know, you get this biginterstitial and it, it's
effective because it's right inmy face, but it, it's not built
into it in a more subtle,natural way.
(08:34):
And so thinking of people whoare consuming those ads is
probably gonna be a much, muchbetter experience for them than
a lot of what they're used togrowing up with.
Games on phones now.
Corby Fine (08:44):
So I guess the big question then is, are we
currently outta state in themarket?
Where the majority of theadvertising opportunities that I
would want to take advantage ofas a chief marketing or chief
advertising or chief customerofficer, are they now technology
enabled to the point whereprogrammatic does cover all of
those angles?
Jeremy Freedman (09:06):
I think it covers most of the angles.
I think the last big one, andyou know we're starting to see
it a little bit, is aroundtraditional TV advertising
coming into the programmaticspace.
Obviously connected TV has hasblown up the last couple years,
and that's totally addressableby programmatic, but there
aren't very commonly used waysof inserting programmatic ads
(09:26):
onto traditional broadcasts.
And I think that we've startedto see that a little bit in the
us.
I'm sure it will be in Canadasoon.
And so I feel like that's kindof the last big whale, otherwise
out of home, accessible throughprogrammatic audio ads,
accessible through programmatic,obviously connected tv, video
display, mobile, all those otherpieces.
Ben Wise (09:47):
Yeah, even the, the big giant screen in a movie
theater, like the, the, thepre-roll ads for, uh, before a
movie, those are, uh, becomingaddressable through
programmatic.
So, and it, it literally isalmost everything now.
Corby Fine (10:01):
So given the.
Reach and findability of myaudiences is now technically
enabled through thisprogrammatic ecosystem to pretty
much any kind of deployment orscreen or wherever.
I wanna find how important nowis the difference between data.
So as an organization in termsof.
(10:23):
Understanding my prospects, mytargets, my customers, and
leveraging that informationwithin these programmatically
enabled channels and platformsversus the creative and the
message and the offer, and themore.
I'll say, uh, wrong word, buttraditional elements of
advertising so data versus thepot of creative and messaging
(10:46):
and context.
What are you seeing in that sortof, uh, that space right now?
Jeremy Freedman (10:51):
I don't think it's an either or.
I think it's really acombination of those two things
that lead to success.
Data, you know, for years hashad a lot of hype behind it in
the ability to find users wherethey are online, speak to
specific customers.
I.
Um, that space is evolvingrapidly with all of the changes
to the ways browsers, allowcookie storage, privacy
(11:13):
regulations around the world.
So that is kind of one of themost, the most influx elements
of, I think, the digitaladvertising industry.
What's never changed all of thistime though, is the importance
of good creative.
You could be speaking tosomebody and it might be the
exact right person for yourcustomer, but if the message
that you're giving them isn'tthe right message and it isn't
(11:33):
being told in an entertaining oreffective way, then you know it,
it's just not gonna work.
So I think that the crutch thatpeople sometimes use is, okay,
well we've got all of thisamazing technology, gets us in
the right places at the righttime, and then we kind of forget
the basics of.
Okay, listen, the creative stillhas to be good.
Uh, I still have to not want toskip that ad or I have to take
(11:55):
notice of that ad.
So I think it really is acombination of, as you said,
what we might have calledtraditional elements and some of
the technology based, pieces.
Ben Wise (12:05):
I, every few years I feel like there's a new study
that looks at that exactquestion.
So anywhere between, you know,50 to 70% ish I've seen, um,
that says, you know, the ROI orthe impact of your marketing is,
let's say 50%.
Based on the creative messageand the creative elements that
you put in front of them.
So regardless of how advancedyour technology and your
(12:25):
targeting and your measurementis, the creative element is
always going to be essential.
What I think is interestingthough, is like moving forward,
the more that we can build someof that technology and data and
targeting and all that stuffthat we do, and almost take for
granted on the media side, butuse that to better inform some
of the creative.
I think is a really bigopportunity to make that other
(12:46):
50% on the creative side workeven harder.
Um, I think if you were to askanybody that doesn't work in the
industry, Hey, do you ever clickon an ad?
They'd all say, no.
I'm, I'm perfectly capable oftuning out every ad I ever see
yet.
People in the industry know thatthat's obviously not true.
Ads are seen, they're clickedon.
They're impactful, but peopledon't think of them as ads
(13:06):
because they're relevant and,and I think when you make a
really good, relevant ad that'sentertaining.
Well targeted, well timed.
I don't see it as an ad, as auser.
I see it as just good content,and maybe I'll read the content.
I'll click on the content andI'll be completely oblivious to
the fact that I just clicked onan ad and continue thinking
that.
I never do.
Corby Fine (13:27):
So I'm gonna get to the relevant thing'cause I think
that's an important word.
But first I'm gonna bring in thehot topic of the day, which is
really all about generative ai.
And the reason that it makessense to talk about now is you
both just said something reallyinteresting, which was this.
Value of creative.
Okay.
Check.
We all buy into the fact thatthe, the message, and if looked
(13:49):
at as value add and as content,as entertaining and educating
and in, you know, exciting isgoing to drive some sort of
engagement.
And at the same time, the moredata and understanding of the
prospect, the lead, the, thetrigger points, right?
So if you think about a futureof the neuroscience knowledge of
what makes people tick, mashedup with.
(14:12):
The markers of identification ofwho they actually are at the
other end of the machine.
And I'm not talking like gettingto creepy biometric stuff, but
like having a good probabilityplus an understanding of what
from a neurological perspectivemakes people tick.
Now you're into this world of,oh, I got a lot of different
ways to create this stuff, toengage with all of these
(14:34):
different either individuals orsmall segments.
One of the promises ofgenerative AI is this ability to
mass produce, mass create, anddo things and more efficiently.
So my question is, do weactually see the influx and the
increased use of this kind oftechnology taking advantage of
(14:55):
that mass amount of data, massamount of channel distribution,
therefore mass need for output?
And who's doing it well?
Like what?
What is ethical legal?
Relevant and actually working,and I don't know if you guys
have any examples of that.
Jeremy Freedman (15:14):
I mean, I think that we're at a really big
inflection point, and I thinkthat right now a lot of the
possibilities are a lot largerthan the things that are
actually.
Happening in market.
I think we're at the verybeginning of this, and I think
the way that you kind of brokethat down, you know, if we
rewound and did a five yearsago, six years ago, seven years
ago, version of that, we'd betalking about dynamic creative,
(15:34):
right?
Changing our different creativemessaging based on the user at
the other end.
And I think that what generativeAI will allow us to do is just
get so much better at that.
Because as you said, we'll havemass produced creative mass
variation.
A lot less of the, of the kindof cumbersomeness of that
process in the past that wassuch a barrier to entry for so
(15:56):
many brands because of the lackof ability to get that many
variations and also to pivot onthe fly in terms of what was
working and what wasn't.
Corby Fine (16:04):
So Ben, do you think that in that world of.
Mass produced, automated,creative, tied to really deep
knowledge of the individual.
Are we as marketers actually incontrol of the marketing, or is
this like a world of deep fakeswhere everything is essentially
like kind of within theparameters of allowable
(16:24):
messaging?
So personalized.
I'm, I, as a marketer, I'm outof control like this.
Like I get political ads, that'sa whole other thing.
But if you're talking about aburger or a baby diaper, or
dishwasher, soap.
Is it deep fake or is itadvertising if it's created
automatically based on all thesesignals?
Ben Wise (16:43):
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting question.
I, I think it's probably a waysfrom getting to that level yet.
Let's say the medium term, thenext few years, I think where
we're at is AI is not going toreplace the creative spark that
humans can bring to advertising.
That great idea that that corecreative concept.
(17:07):
The storytelling, that's still auniquely human thing.
10 years from now, who knows?
But right now, I would saythat's still very much a, a
uniquely human thing.
Where AI comes in is then beingable to take that creative
genius from the human and figureout those little tweaks for, you
know, a rainy day or a sunnyday, or, you know, take that
(17:29):
great idea from a TV ad, turn itinto a horizontal or vertical ad
for, for TikTok and, and aYouTube short.
or take what are the best imagesout of that creative video to
become your display ads or yoursocial ads.
Uh, and so I, I think, you know,and I think you mentioned this
in the question of like, howwill this impact the wild
(17:50):
fragmentation of options?
I think that makes it much moreaccessible to most advertisers
because you can make a fewassets based on your creative
concept and turn them into theassets you need across
everything.
But it.
Is still a long ways away fromreplacing that human element.
so as an example, I actually, I,I write a monthly newsletter and
(18:10):
I always, I do use Gemini andchat GPT to help me write it.
it requires a lot of editing orI take my writing and I use it
to do a little bit of editingand I'll pull out little, little
bits here and there it is.
And I'm not an exceptionalwriter by any means.
It is still a ways fromreplacing me as a writer, let
alone professional copywriters.
Corby Fine (18:31):
Yeah, I've been testing a bunch of different,
uh, writing platforms and therethere's no question you get
different output, which meansthat in some regard it's good
because it shows that there'ssort of independence of thought
in all of these differentmodels.
It's not like one thing tryingto take over the world, but at
the same time, uh, I also likethat some of them.
Like Grammarly for instance, areactually at a pro level, knowing
(18:54):
their audience and knowing it'sa student element.
Still trying to have a lack ofplagiarism won't even actually
create things.
It's just about editing.
And so I do think you think itfrom the perspective of, am I
looking to generate or am Ilooking to enhance, make better
and personalize?
Which kind of comes down to thatnext word.
And we talked about before aboutrelevance and yes, I do believe
(19:15):
that.
The ability to create somethingthat's meaningful for me as an
individual.
There's a lot of differentangles.
There's a lot of different data.
I might be responsive based onthe TV show, I'm watching the
YouTube show, I'm watching thebook I'm reading, and it might
just be in innate in me as tothe values and the beliefs that
I have, irrespective of what I'mdoing, right.
Sometimes while you're, whileyou're skiing, you're focused on
(19:36):
skiing and you're aware of thosethings, and sometimes when
you're watching a TV show,you're still thinking of skiing.
So the question is, Is relevancekind of back, is it the hot
word?
We were so focused on granulardata and very specifically
constructed audiences for awhile in the programmatic space.
Where is relevance now and uh,over the next couple of years in
(19:57):
terms of budgets?
What are you seeing?
Ben Wise (19:59):
Yeah, that's a great question and I think relevance
for a long time, I would say haskind of been king of, of
advertising and but, but how youactually execute that has
changed over time.
So, you know, five or 10 yearsago, maybe earlier days of
programmatic, it was all this,this wonderful vision of all
(20:21):
this data.
I can hit you with the exactright thing, the exact right
time, and I'm gonna fragment myaudiences and segment so, so
specifically that like, oh, whenI catch a Honda Odyssey driver
on a snowy day, that is also aTuesday afternoon when the least
play in Toronto and someone'swithin five kilometers of the
Scotiabank arena.
This is the message for them.
(20:42):
that was really specific.
You can't see'cause there's novideo of a jar is firming his
brow possibly because he hatesthe leaves.
and, and to your point, I, Ithink maybe we got too granular
in a way that probably didn'tactually impact the results of
the campaign.
It's, it's, I think it's easy tosay we should do this because we
have the data that makes itcapable to do that, but it
(21:02):
doesn't necessarily makestrategic sense.
I would say over the last fewyears we've really seen a rise
in.
more guaranteed deals goingthrough programmatic.
and I think that is much morelike contextually focused.
Although, you know, the foundingof Google search ads, that was
all around contextual relevance.
I, I think that the key for anadvertiser marketer now is where
do you find the balance betweenbringing that data, bringing the
(21:25):
relevance or the contextualrelevance of the moment, um, and
what they're doing regardless ofmaybe all that data you have
about them, but also applyingsome like.
Human judgment and common sensethat yes, I can segment this
list of a million users down tothis group of eight people that
share these attributes, but isthat gonna actually drive
results?
And I think that's one of thethings I'm excited about AI is
(21:47):
that it will or should figureout what are those things that
actually impact the behavior andhave direct causation to the
output of your campaign.
So it's easy for everyone says,oh, you know, when it's raining,
you wanna advertise umbrellas.
Corby Fine (22:04):
Or food delivery services.
Ben Wise (22:06):
yeah, there there are a million things like that that
may or may not be true when wejust kind of use our gut
instinct, which might be righthalf the time.
Maybe that's generous.
Uh, but we never have theanalysis to, to back that up,
and there's just too manyfactors out there.
So we just randomly pick some,uh, and I think using more
automation AI tools will get usto the point where.
(22:27):
We can figure out what are thosereally driving factors behind
performance.
Um, and really lean into thoseand maybe ignore some of those
other things that we thoughtmight be relevant'cause they
kind of make sense, but don'tactually have any impact.
Corby Fine (22:40):
So Jeremy, I was more interested in your opinion
before the Leaf thing, so I, Idon't, no, I'm kidding.
Jeremy Freedman (22:46):
My parents are from Montreal.
You know, I come by it honestly.
Corby Fine (22:49):
what, what's your take on the, the whole relevance
factor?
I.
Jeremy Freedman (22:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the thing that we've
always talked about in theprogrammatic space, the, the,
thing that's always been sofancy and, and highlighted and
monopolized the conversation is,is you know, the audience
targeting data story.
But I really don't think thatthat was ever all a programmatic
in a previous role.
I, I ran education at Google andwhen I'd asked people for the
definition of programmatic,inevitably it was, we've got a
(23:15):
list of audiences and then weget target those audiences.
The reality is contextualtargeting has always been a
giant piece of the programmaticspace, and the tools have gotten
better over the years.
And so now when we're kind of atthis really big change point in
the industry with privacy, withcookie list, with all of that
stuff coming, audience targetingisn't going to look like it did
(23:37):
for the last 10 years.
It already doesn't it, it'salready changing.
And when we go and we do thesekind of privacy, are you ready
for cookie deprecation sessionswith customers?
I'm always surprised by thevariance in the way that people
perceive what they're currentlydoing and how that matches up
with reality.
Really simple question to abrand or to an agency is, you
know, what percentage of yourads right now do you think are
(24:00):
running on remarketing?
And you know, sometimes I'veseen customers say, oh, probably
about 80, 90%, and the answerhas been six.
Sometimes I've seen the inverse.
But I think the reality of thesituation is just like the first
question, success in digitaladvertising success in
programmatic is always about acombination of different things.
And so now we're at a placewhere systems, DSPs buying
(24:23):
platforms are intelligent enoughto read a webpage and determine
the context of that webpage.
If I want to target pages thatspecifically mention the Maple
Leaf, whether they're on asports website or just an
article about.
You know, the worst hockey fansin Canada, I guess I'm gonna
get, I'm gonna get some hatemail for that.
Um, the tool is smart enough tofigure that out, and that's
(24:45):
still targeting an audience, butit's not targeting an audience
list.
And then also, you know, we'reat this, as we said, inflection
point on ai.
AI's always been foundationaland programmatic.
One of the main things inprogrammatic has always been
about helping the systemunderstand what your goal is.
Whether that's a cost per click,cost per conversion, a specific
(25:05):
return on ad spend goal, andthen having the system use its
computer brain to optimize.
And 10 years ago, when I wasgetting started in this space,
or I guess 12 years ago now, youknow, there was a lot of ego
with us, ad ops people.
We didn't want to turn on theai, we wanted to do it
ourselves.
We thought that we were smarterthan the computer.
And I think, you know, a decadelater, a decade plus later, I
(25:26):
don't think that that's trueanymore.
I think the systems have gottenso much more intelligent.
Human optimization really doespale in comparison.
Corby Fine (25:35):
It's well put.
and I won't hold the hockeything against you, but hate mail
will definitely be coming.
Um, so we talked a lot about theremoval of the word digital.
All of these channels are nowenabled.
We've got context, we've gotaudiences, we've got data.
We've got AI capabilities tomass produce and target and
build creative.
We understand the value of bothsides of the, the coin in terms
(25:58):
of proper targeting and propercontext.
Everything needs to be relevant.
Okay?
So a new advertiser shows up atGoogle's door, not just for the
free lunch and says to you, Ihave a hundred bucks.
How am I supposed to think aboutdistribution of that money in
terms of percentages totechnology, to data, to media
(26:23):
itself, to learnings andinsights?
There's just so many options.
Where do we start?
Jeremy Freedman (26:29):
I think the first question would be, what's
the objective?
It sounds really, really simple,but I think that there's always
a risk with any technology ofthinking that technology in
itself is the answer, and it'snot.
It's a tool.
It's meant to help you achievewhatever your objective is.
So I think that that's the veryfirst question off the bat,
followed by what, what type ofdata does that advertiser have?
(26:52):
What are the creative assets?
Have they been built yet?
Is that something that, youknow, needs kind of prep work
and strategy and advice?
Or are we kind of ready to go?
Are there any existingagreements with publishers or
vendors?
So we kind of go through thatlist and really try to
understand what is somebodytrying to achieve on our
platform.
I.
Ben Wise (27:10):
And then once we kind of have that side, I, I think,
you know, going back to theoriginal.
Or, or one of the earlierquestions around like chief
Digital Officer, chief CustomerOfficer, I would ask a million
questions to understand whatthey know about their consumer.
'cause I think, you know, youhave an objective and that needs
to be grounded in what yourconsumer is looking for.
(27:32):
What is the value you bring toyour consumer?
What are the behaviors?
What do we know about yourconsumers?
Um, and, and try to take thatconsumer centric view.
so before we had anyrecommendations for anybody, we
probably would've, you know,finished the free lunch, of just
asking them questions.
So, Corey, we're not gonna makeyou answer all those questions.
We'll make a few assumptions, tokeep things simple.
(27:54):
So this podcast doesn't end upat like three hours long, which
it could, let's say for the, forthe sake of argument, we're,
we're talking specific toprogrammatic and, and looking.
Specifically in, you know, theDSP that we work on DV 360 at
Google.
so, you know, a little bit ofour Google bias there, but you
get what you get.
Um, yeah, it does.
We'd like to think so.
Thank you Corey.
(28:15):
Um, I think maybe we could takeit like from two different
angles.
'cause a lot of advertisers willcome and they'll have a, you
know, a lower funnel, moreperformance oriented campaign,
or sometimes they'll have aupper funnel, more kind of brand
awareness type campaign.
And let's, let's look at thosetwo.
Maybe a bit separately.
Um, so if it's lower funnel, Ithink from a programmatic
perspective, we're gonna belooking at a much heavier
(28:36):
waiting on display than youwould be on some other formats
like video or audio orbillboards or whatever.
You know, as a starting point, Iwould say in and around 50, 60%
as a starting point of that isgonna go towards display.
And then I think you still wantsome other formats.
I think understanding theinterplay between, a mid.
(28:56):
Funnel consideration tactic andupper funnel awareness tactic
because that does flow down to,to getting users into the funnel
who then purchase.
and you know, if they had datahistory of what that looks like,
you know, you'd go a little bitdeeper into that.
Um, I think within the world ofdisplay, there's all sorts of
options.
You know, lower funnel, I'd bereally keen to use a lot of
(29:16):
native ads.
I think those, you know, we, wehear a lot of really positive
feedback from our clients on howeffective those are.
on the lower funnel, again, alittle bit dependent on what
kind of assets you have.
and then when you kind of getinto that other, you know, 30 or
40%, start to think of, videoaction campaigns, skippable ads,
things like that.
Audio ads.
I really like podcast ads.
(29:37):
I think they really res, and I'mnot just saying that'cause this
is a podcast.
I don't know.
Do you sell ads on this?
Do we?
Um,
Corby Fine (29:44):
No, I do this out of the love of educating the market
Ben Wise (29:46):
uh, what a guy.
Yeah,
Jeremy Freedman (29:48):
What a beautiful sentiment.
Ben Wise (29:50):
Until you hit a threshold, in which case we're
talking monetization and we'llsell your ads all day, Corby.
But I, I do think, you know,podcast ads from kind of that,
that mid funnel perspective doreally well.
and then depending on how muchyou put into that, I would also
consider maybe some more upperfunnel awareness.
again, depending on the, thesize of that budget.
then I would want to go a littlebit deeper on what your
(30:11):
measurement looks like.
So are we measuring to, youknow, is it number of
acquisitions, is it a cost peracquisition, is it a return on
ad spend?
Um, depending on their data setup, I'd love to be a little more
advanced than those types ofthings, which I'd say are
probably more media metrics.
But what is like a, a businessmetric of profitability or, or
revenue that might be a littlebit more important?
(30:33):
Thinking of like the way this,of the CMO is gonna be looking
at the business and can we setup.
Some kind of customized biddingsolutions, in the platform to
help you optimize and measuretowards, that more specific
business outcome.
so lots of different things wecould do there.
and then obviously what doesthat cadence look like on an
ongoing basis to optimize,adjust, and tweak as you, as you
(30:57):
go through the campaign?
Jeremy Freedman (31:00):
What's interesting about that is I bet
you that that answer would looktotally different in 12 to 18
months.
'cause now that Google hasproducts like P max and Demand
Gen, a lot of that strategy workis starting to get offloaded
into the system, into the ai,into the computer's algorithm to
figure out budget allocationacross these various channels.
(31:20):
So I think that we're alsoseeing this kind of bifurcation
in the industry.
Where now there are tools totake all that complexity
completely out of it for a freshadvertiser, for a small
business, for a medium business.
But we also still have toolsthat allow, you know, intense
flexibility that Ben describedfor a more strategically,
established customer.
Ben Wise (31:40):
Yeah.
I think that's such aninteresting link to the earlier
part of the conversation of likethe human element that can't be
replaced by AI of.
What is your, your brand about?
What is your strategy?
What's the creative idea?
What do you know about yourcustomer?
And then when it comes to maybesome of those more data heavy
pieces of like what is the rightallocation?
What is the, the bidding, how dowe optimize that?
(32:02):
Things that happen at a level ofdata that we are not capable of
doing as humans.
That's the kind of thing thatmoves over to the, to the
machines and the ai, and youkind of get the best of both
worlds.
Bring those together, I think.
Corby Fine (32:14):
Unaided plug.
I'm running our first p maxcampaign right now, so we can
follow up on that later.
But it is, uh, it is definitelyallowing us as an organization
and me as an advertiser to.
To your point, simplify theamount of work I need to do and
trust in the machine to somedegree.
Uh, and so far, so good.
but we'll, we'll have a separateconversation on that.
(32:35):
and I think the two things thatI wanna highlight in all of that
was, one, know your objective.
Why are you even having this ahundred dollars allocation
conversation and two.
Be prepared to measure it at theend of the day.
And again, measurement from theperspective of very explicit
lead generation filled in aform, bought something all the
way to more inferred, softerkind of measurement KPIs around
(32:57):
brand lift and recognition andconsideration.
But I.
You don't know why you'regetting into something and you
don't know what you're gonnaactually tell your organization,
your boss, your clients, yourwhoever, your investors.
At the end of the day, you havea bigger problem.
And the technology, to yourpoint Jeremy, it's just
technology.
It's not gonna solve anything.
so, you know, I reallyappreciate that it was very
detailed and obviously clientsare gonna talk to you in more
(33:19):
specificity, and that fiveminute or 10 minute answer
becomes much, much, much
Ben Wise (33:24):
yeah.
yeah.
And most clients aren't comingin saying, this is our first
campaign.
They've got all sorts ofbenchmark data, what's worked
than it, and it's, it's muchmore about the ongoing tweaking
and optimization and improvementfor, for most people then kind
of that blank slate.
Although the blank slate isdefinitely a, a fun exercise to
try.
Corby Fine (33:41):
Awesome.
well, Jeremy Friedman, Ben Wise,both, in charge of programmatic
within Google Canada, helpingadvertisers, marketers, agencies
across the country really takefull advantage of.
All of the things we talkedabout today and, and again, over
the next 12 to 18 months, a lotmore to come.
So thank you both for being withme and really appreciate your
insights.
Jeremy Freedman (34:01):
Thanks so much for having us.
Ben Wise (34:03):
Thank you.
Corgis is fun.
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