June 24, 2023 • 40 mins
Today's conversation with firefighters Brent Harding and Seth Weaver along with clinician Dan Fast and Captain Seth Francis will uncover the immense impact sleep quality has on our physical and mental health and explore how firefighters can improve their sleep despite the unique challenges they face.
Dan Fast shares his expertise on sleep, debunking the myth of needing 8 hours a night and revealing how our daily activities influence our sleep quality. Captain Seth Francis opens up about his journey from volunteer to full-time firefighter, and how maintaining a positive attitude can be a protective factor for mental well-being. Plus, we'll discuss the importance of habit stacking and creating a sleep sanctuary in the bedroom to promote better sleep quality.
But what if trauma and unresolved issues are keeping you awake at night? We dive into coping mechanisms, trauma work, and therapeutic modalities like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), EMDR, and Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART) that can help process traumatic experiences and improve sleep. Listen in as we explore the power of trusting our brains and seeking help from peer support, clinicians, and other resources to find our way to better sleep and overall well-being. Don't miss this enlightening conversation on the crucial role of sleep in the lives of firefighters and beyond.
Thank you for joining us for another episode of our Firefighter Support podcast, where our mission is to empower firefighters to strengthen their resiliency through mental wellness, physical health, and human connection. This podcast is available across any platform where you can find podcasts, including YouTube.
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Episode Transcript
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Brent Harding (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of our
firefighter support podcast.
We are excited to have with ustoday Dan fast, a new clinician
in town, captain Seth Francisand also Seth We were joining us
again.
Before we get into our topic,let's get an introduction from
ban and captain Francis.
Dan, why don't you kick us offand tell us a little bit about
you and how you got intoclinician work?
Dan Fast (00:19):
Yeah, thanks.
So I am the clinic director ofthe Logan sandstone psychology
and I got into this because, youknow, i I've experienced a lot
of crises in my life, a lot ofdeath and suicide, that I've
been surrounded by andexperienced my own mental health
challenges over over the courseof my life, and so, you know,
(00:42):
in my journey I found someonethat helped me be better
essentially, and or becomebetter and grow into the person
that I am now, and so I wantedto give back and be that one
person for someone else, and Somy experiences and background is
in marriage and family therapy.
So I work a lot with couples andfamilies and individuals as
(01:03):
well, but the system of, or theframework of, therapy that I do
is systemic and we're all partof a system.
We're all affected by everyonearound us and we're not isolated
from that, and so I'm asystemic therapist and I like to
bring in a lot of people to dothat work, because while
something might affect you, itaffects everyone in your system,
(01:24):
and so it's important toincorporate that.
So that's a little bit about me.
Brent Harding (01:29):
Yeah, that's great.
Maybe just one quick follow-upon that is going through it
yourself and kind of seeing whatis kind of your Outlook on
change.
You know, it seems like like ifonce you experience kind of
that change yourself, gettingfrom a bad spot to a better spot
, and then you just kind of havethis renewed sense of what
other people can accomplish andchange from, no matter what's
(01:49):
kind of happened to them intheir life.
Dan Fast (01:51):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Let me say this most peoplecome into my office expecting
change And they don't knowwhat's required of them to get
there.
At the same time, i didn't knowwhat was required of me, and
what I think that I've learnedover the years in myself seeing
other people change is It comesdown to consistency and effort
(02:11):
and patience with yourself andresilience and developing some
of those things.
So my outlook on change is It'spossible.
A lot of people think that it's.
It's not.
You know, i have couples comein and they're like my husband
can't change or my wife can'tchange or my kids can't change.
But that thought in and ofitself is limiting.
You know what I mean.
And so my thought on changescan you change?
(02:34):
Do you believe that you canchange?
And if so, then change ispossible.
And I think that personally, ifwe're not trying to like grow
and progress, i mean we're goingto stay stagnant, we're not
going to.
We're not going to get to Wherewe want to be.
We're not going to be theperson that we want to be If
we're stuck in that.
Brent Harding (02:53):
Yeah, no, i think that's a great point, because I
think a lot of times We justfeel like naturally, that change
is going to occur, like if Ijust keep plugging along, you
know, i mean these things in mylife that I don't like, whether
it's my relationship or Certainbehaviors I have, or sleep
deprivation or whatever likeI'll just keep plugging along
and eventually it'll get better.
(03:13):
But I think we misunderstand ormaybe don't appreciate the
value of having the right toolsto facilitate the change right,
and so I think that's great Andthat's why we love having
clinicians here is because theyhave all the training in the
tools and and things to give usa different perspective, that,
even though firefighters thinkwe know it all, there's probably
one or two, maybe two things wedon't know yet And so we're
(03:35):
hoping clinicians can kind offill those gaps.
Dan Fast (03:37):
So yeah, well, i'm happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, captain.
Brent Harding (03:41):
Francis Tell us tell us, give us the a picture
of the deep mind.
Oh man, there's not a lot ofdeepness here.
Seth Francis (03:49):
Seth Francis, captain, paramedic, been with
lovin fire for 17 years,volunteer firefighter before
that for five years, still a newcaptain, going on Two and a
half years as a captain now, sostill learning quite a bit.
Brent Harding (04:04):
And yeah, where did you?
I didn't know you were avolunteer.
Where was?
you doing that in mending.
Seth Weaver (04:08):
Yep.
Brent Harding (04:09):
Cool.
What was the transition likefor you going from volunteer to?
Seth Francis (04:12):
full time.
I was green, so green It was.
It was scary.
It was scary, but it was fun.
Brent Harding (04:19):
Yeah, awesome, and tell us a little bit about
your career with logan.
Is you kind of have Like, didyou always hope you're gonna
promote up the ladder to becaptain?
Is that something that kind ofyou know changed later on or no,
for a long time I wasn't.
Seth Francis (04:32):
I had no desire at all to be a captain.
I wanted to be an engineer andBecome an engineer.
I went and got my medic tobecome an engineer, and then
from there, it's just like man,let's just keep moving on.
And so here I am.
Seth Weaver (04:48):
Yeah, battalion chief next for south francis.
there We'll see it.
Brent Harding (04:52):
Speaking of couples counseling, i don't know
if that applies to, like firecrews, but maybe we should do a
life session.
Seth Francis (04:57):
We probably have some counseling for the two of
us A live session for you too.
Seth Weaver (05:01):
I love them, but I hate them at the same time.
It's it confuses me.
Brent Harding (05:05):
Well, so one of the things we wanted to go over
today and me and seth I had achance to go to a conference in
rena where they talked a lotabout sleep and the impact that
has for better, for worse onfirefighters and Both on and off
shift, and so, seth, you gotyour.
You took much better notes atthe conference than.
I did, i can kick us off alittle bit, tell us a little bit
(05:27):
about some of the things thatwe walked away with from the
conference and what Stood out toyou.
Seth Weaver (05:32):
That's pretty interesting.
It was over Cognitivebehavioral therapy for sleep
insomnia is what the main pointwas, but there was a lot of
facts in there that I don'tthink many of us realized are
happening with this, with oursleep.
So 40 percent of firefightershave a sleep disorder is what
the study found, with 80 percentNot knowing that.
(05:54):
So those are pretty highnumbers whenever you look at it.
I think last time I readthere's something like Just over
a million firefighters in theunited states and then there you
got another 300 000 that arejust EMTs or paramedics,
specifically on the medical side, and so you look at that
combination, that's a largenumber that have sleep disorders
.
And if you know firefighters,we don't like to do tests, we
(06:16):
don't like to be analyzed, andso I'm imagining that number is
pretty low because there's a lotof them out there that just
said no, not doing this, and sowe don't know.
So if you look at those numbers, a lot of us don't know that
they do.
But the effects of sleepinsomnia are great.
We already have enough scares.
We've already talked aboutcancer, poor nutrition, health
(06:37):
Whenever we're not gettingenough sleep or getting enough
quality sleep.
You know we all nap, but ifit's not quality sleep it leads
to.
It leads to cardiovasculardisease, anxiety, depression
take a hit there too, and thendiabetes even comes out of it.
And then we get into our moodswings.
So how we interact with peopleand our families and stuff are
(06:57):
huge too.
I met him in Somnia So it waspretty interesting to listen to
him kind of talk about that Andthen he got into kind of ways we
can improve it.
So I'm a big fan of like if Iknow how it works, then I can
fix it.
You know, i don't like justlistening to people teach me how
it works And that can fix it.
And so we went over the sleepcycle and kind of why we need
(07:18):
each stage of sleep And if wedon't get it, what's happening
to us.
So it was a good conference Didyou?
Brent Harding (07:23):
did it have a good definition in there for
what a sleep like?
what classifies as a sleepdisorder Like is that me, and on
average, you're getting so much, Yeah, there was a few.
Seth Weaver (07:31):
The biggest one was , like their sleep deprivation,
where you're not getting enoughsleep.
Sleep insomnia is where andcorrect me if I'm wrong, you
might know a better definitionbut it was your ability to not
go to sleep Or get a qualitynight's sleep.
So whenever you do fall asleep,you're not sleeping well.
So maybe you're only gettinginto stage one and REM sleeping.
(07:52):
You're not hitting stage twoand three and you need
everything to get it proper.
You can't just have nitpickingstages there And so yeah, right,
no, that's exactly right.
Dan Fast (08:02):
And with that, with the sleep stages, there's four
sleep stages, but you'resupposed to have at least four
to five cycles of that eachnight, and so if it's fragmented
and you're only getting likeone or two, i mean that's that
insomnia that we're talkingabout that can disrupt and
create a number of those issuesfor people.
Seth Weaver (08:20):
That's why sometimes you get eight hours of
sleep at night and you wake upand you're like why do I feel
like crap?
It's because you're not gettingquality sleep.
You're not going through thatcycle a couple of times like you
should.
You're jumping around andyou're disturbing your own sleep
and you don't even know it,just by what you do during the
day.
that was the part I liked.
You talked about some of thethings you do during the day
that affect you at night.
Brent Harding (08:41):
That's one of the things that I remember from the
conference is he pointed outthat you have to have eight
hours of sleep.
That's a myth, yep.
Really it's more like four orfive, as long as it's quality
Quality.
But if you get four to fivehours of quality sleep, there's
no reason for you to feel likeyou have to have eight, or I
think sometimes we get ourselvesinto a mental rut of if I don't
(09:02):
get eight, then I've alreadyset myself up for failure for
the day, and the reality isthat's not true at all.
Seth Weaver (09:07):
Right, Like if you got a few good quality hours.
you're just.
The national recommendation isseven hours of sleep, officially
from the Sleep Foundation.
But yeah, if you're gettinggood cycles all the way through
and then that four to five hours, you're just fine.
There's no problems there.
Brent Harding (09:23):
Yeah, And so anybody can chime in on this.
But what, like during sleep,there's specific functions your
brain is doing.
It's not like your brain shutsoff during that time.
Right From what I've understood, it's like while you're getting
good sleep you're kind ofbanking those memories.
Seth Weaver (09:38):
Correct.
Brent Harding (09:38):
Is that right?
And it's almost like somebodycompared it to like doing a
firmware update on your phone orcomputer.
It's like when you're sleepingit gives your brain time kind of
process stuff, kind of installthe new updates, so that when
you wake up the next day you'rekind of I don't know at full
function or whatever.
Dan Fast (09:54):
Yeah, i mean, there's a number of things that the
brain does, like cellregeneration, for when you're
asleep, but to what you'retalking about as well is the
brain is logging the experienceof the day, storing it in
long-term memory or things thatit's going to need to recall,
essentially to protect you goingforward.
Right, and that's why we knowthat people that you know have
(10:15):
experienced trauma, typicallythey have a hard time falling
asleep because the brain ishaving a really hard time
falling asleep or staying asleep.
The brain is having a hard timelogging those things right.
So, yeah, in addition to thatcell regeneration and things
along those lines, to be able tohelp you properly function I
(10:35):
mean, when we think about sleep,it is a biological function
There is a necessity for us toget proper sleep so that we can
do the things that are necessarythroughout our day, and without
that, we've run into thoseproblems anxiety, depression,
obesity, diabetes things likethat.
Brent Harding (10:53):
Yeah, so maybe Captain Francis give us a
picture of having the mostexperienced firefighter here,
because sometimes it's good andwell to talk about all the
ideals right, it's ideal to getX amount of hours of sleep and
hit all these cycles, but shiftwork kind of screws that up,
especially B-shifts 72.
Seth Francis (11:12):
I swear, you guys are up every single night like
sleep all day, you're in allnight.
We're our worst enemies onsleep too.
You know, at work We'll stay upand shoot the shit or watch a
movie, and then we'll try and goto bed, and it's after midnight
And then what happens?
We have a call.
So it's like you know weprobably need to do better and
(11:33):
go to sleep a little earlier.
But you know, it's kind of likea little vacay when we're away
from home, enjoy each other'scompany.
But yeah, i believe we're ourown worst enemies on that.
We could do a little better.
Brent Harding (11:44):
Has it changed it all for you over the career,
for different sleep patterns,like maybe year one and two, or
you didn't have that many callsbehind you, versus now you have,
you know, a ton of calls behindyou that maybe you're getting
less sleep Yeah.
Seth Francis (11:59):
No, well, i'd say I'm getting the worst sleep now
as I have ever.
Just being a captain, i'm uplistening to the radio making
sure everybody's okay If I'vegot a crew out on a transfer.
I can't sleep.
But I'd say my sleep is worseas a captain now But I still get
, you know that, good four orfive hours hopefully, yeah.
Brent Harding (12:22):
And so maybe we can jump into some of the things
that we can do to get bettersleep.
I know one thing that I don'tknow if this is from the
conference or from somethingelse I was looking at, but I was
talking specifically aboutfirefighters and shift work, and
while it's never ideal to haveto get up in the middle of the
night, the attitude that youhave when you wake up is either
(12:42):
gonna Well, it's a catalysteither way for positive or
negative.
And so if you wake up and Youknow you're getting a call, and
you're just super angry andfrustrated and you're just you
know It's some frequent flyernot that it ever happens to you
guys, but Riverwalk Parkway, butyou know and but that just
propels the negative aspect ofhaving to get up in the middle
(13:05):
of the night.
Seth Francis (13:05):
That's just like or is gasoline on the fire?
That's a lot.
It goes downhill.
You've got to wake up and evenif you've only been asleep an
hour, you got to have thatmental.
You know like, hey, let's go ona call, yeah.
And then things go good.
But if you do wake up andyou're just pissed off, It's
yeah, that never happens, thatbe.
Brent Harding (13:25):
Well, it's hard, right, it's super hard to
maintain that attitude, but ifyou think about it, this isn't
just about like trying to be theultra optimistic person, but
it's actually for my well-being.
The guy, the article I wasreading and it compared it to an
airbag.
Right, it's never good to getin a car wreck, right, but if
you can maintain a semi positiveattitude when you get up in the
middle of the night, it justmakes it a softer landing on
(13:47):
your body versus this jarring.
I mean imagine cracks with noairbag or that's going to have
much more significant injuriesthan Somebody had an airbag seat
belt, all the protections, andso they just kind of framed it
as our attitude.
Is that Kind of protection forour mental?
Seth Francis (14:02):
well-being definitely a positive attitude.
It is what you need to have inthe fire service on those middle
of the night calls.
Dan Fast (14:08):
Well, and I'm sure it also helps like work to be
better as a team.
Seth Francis (14:12):
Oh, yeah, if you've got someone that's woke
up and they're just pissed offThat the team doesn't function.
Dan Fast (14:18):
Yeah, throws that dynamic off, and then It makes
it hard to work together.
Brent Harding (14:22):
Yeah, I just trust the captain's gonna fix it
.
Seth Weaver (14:29):
This is a story about life, though, like in
everything, you have a choice.
You can choose to be happy oryou can choose to be negative.
So if we just keep implementingthat into whenever it's tough
which it's tough at 4 am,whenever you're going on like a
dumb call, it's tough to chooseto be happy to go on that call.
But if we can do it, then wecan do it with everything in
life And it just rolls into thenext day and the next week and
(14:50):
whenever those really hardmoments come.
Once again, we've already beenthrough it, waking up at night
and choosing to be happy.
We can keep it going.
Brent Harding (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, and maybe even just telling yourself
I can, you know, hopefullywe'll get some catch up on this
in the morning or get a good napor something, you know, if the
captain lets us but maybe walkthrough some of the other things
, that some of the other stufffrom the conference, those kind
of bullet points that they gaveus of some steps you can take to
fall asleep faster and to getbetter quality.
Seth Weaver (15:17):
So I want to talk a little bit about that sleep
cycle.
So there's stage one, which isa light sleep.
Stage two I just call it kindof medium sleep.
Stage three is deep and thenyou have REM rem after that And
that's the full cycle of sleepthat you need to get.
That they talked about, andthere's some contributing
factors during the day that whatwe do Determines if we get a
(15:37):
full cycle or if we jump around.
One of the things they hit onpretty hard was that alcohol
lowers our quality of sleep andmakes it more disruptive.
Most people think, hey, let mehave a couple of shots to go to
sleep, put me to sleep.
But what they don't realize isthey're actually disrupting
their sleep by doing that.
The recommendation was Withinthree hours of bed.
(15:57):
You don't drink alcohol withinthree hours of bed because what
happens is it puts you to sleepquicker, but as it metabolizes
in your body it actually does anadrenaline dump And so it wakes
you up after a short amount oftime, or it makes you kind of
start stirring and get crazylegs in your sleep, and so that
will affect your sleep quality.
So while it might put you tobed fast, you're not going to
(16:18):
get the quality of sleep youneed.
Dan Fast (16:20):
Well, and I would agree with that and in, in
addition to that, conditioningyourself to do that every night
And let's say there was one timewhere you didn't have the
opportunity That's going toinhibit your ability to fall
asleep, when you're staying uplater or longer and Or not
getting the rest that your bodyneeds.
Seth Weaver (16:36):
Yeah, whenever you drink within three hours of
going to bed, i believe theysaid you spend majority of your
sleep time in REM, so you're notgetting all the stages like you
need.
You just sitting REM sleep andso it's not a quality sleep.
You need your cycles To gothrough.
So that was pretty interestingand they talked about a lot of
us might take some melatonin orsomething to help us Go to bed.
Well, whenever they do, thestudy about that actually
(16:59):
increases Your ability to go tosleep by 10 to 30 minutes.
That's it.
That's all it does for.
So you're going to sleep sooner, for 10 to 30 minutes, but
whenever you stop, you're rightback where you started.
So it does not fix insomnia.
It puts a band-aid over.
It helps you for that littlebit 10 to 30 minute window, but
other than that, you're notfixing the problem.
So we need to look at okay,what's causing me to have
(17:21):
insomnia and how can I fix this?
Dan Fast (17:23):
right.
I mean I don't know about youguys, but anytime I take
melatonin to go to sleep I'mback up in like 30 minutes.
You know like Didn't get you alittle nap and now you're up for
forever.
Yep Yeah.
Seth Weaver (17:34):
Yeah, so that was some of some good stuff they
gave to us, just about thoselittle things there, but some of
the changes we can make.
You know, it's like theyrecommended going to waking up
at the same time every day.
That was a big push they had asfar as going to bed and they
said that's gonna, you know,very in our day-to-day schedule
when we go to sleep.
But they recommended make sureyou're getting up at the same
(17:56):
time every day.
It helps train your body Toknow when it's time to sleep,
when it's time to wake up, andso it can start regulating going
through those cycles for you.
Brent Harding (18:05):
Oh, that was pretty neat, yeah, something
that's hard to do on shift allthe time.
But I think it makes it thatmuch more critical if our sleep
practices are good On the fouroff, like because we need it.
Like those four off we need Thesleep because we know the two
on are going to be a little bitrougher, but I even found it
interesting.
Seth Weaver (18:23):
So whenever I was a probationary firefighter, i was
determined to get up beforeeverybody else.
Even if I took a transfer at 3am And I got back at 5, my alarm
was going off at 6 30 and I wasgetting up and I found
Throughout my day I felt alittle happier than normal.
Now I'm not on probation, thatdrive to beat everybody up isn't
(18:44):
quite there.
So I come back and it's hardfor me to get out of bed after a
late night transfer And so I'msleeping till 9 10 o'clock
trying to make up for that latenight transfer.
And I get up and I'm stillgrumpy and groggy and feeling a
little bit more ill-temperedthan normal.
And so whenever they startedtalking about getting up at the
same time every day for thatyear I was on probation and
(19:04):
doing this I meant like I didfeel better.
Yeah, i wasn't getting as muchsleep at night, but yet I felt
better in my days because, idon't know, i guess that's why I
was helping my body regulate.
Dan Fast (19:16):
Well, a lot of people think that if, oh, i didn't get
a whole lot of sleep the nightbefore, so I'm going to try and
get some more tomorrow.
Let's say you sleep three hoursmore than what you would
normally do, so you wake up at 9instead of 6, or something like
that.
That's actually almost the sameeffect of having jet lag, like
your body's not used to that,and so you're kind of thrown
into this.
You're feeling more lethargic orirritable or things like that,
(19:40):
not feeling like you had a fullnight's rest, feeling like, man,
i could go back to sleep andsleep the rest of the day.
Right, we have that groggyfeeling.
Brent Harding (19:49):
Yeah, and there is some ways to make up for it.
I seem like in the class theytalked about.
you know, a good way to nap isas long as this before 3 pm And
Less than an hour I think, andso, oh man, i'm no good at that,
yeah, yeah, no naps at 7 pm.
That doesn't work, okay, yeah.
Seth Weaver (20:05):
So they talked about a couple of naps we can do
, and there's one that's madefor you.
It's called the coffee nap.
Brent Harding (20:10):
It applies to the energy drinks, yeah.
Seth Weaver (20:12):
Yeah, so there's a few things.
They talked about how toimprove our sleep time, but
basically it's we all have badhabits whenever it comes to
sleep and they say it's time toget rid of those bad habits and
put In good habits when it comesto sleep and that's all it is.
It's not our bodies Oh, i canonly fall asleep here.
No, it's a habit and so youjust got to unlearn it and force
yourself to learn a new habit.
But some of the things theytalked about, like naps, cannot
(20:35):
disrupt our night time sleep.
So they recommend like limitnaps to less than 45 minutes and
after like 3 pm, don't napafter 3 pm.
Try to get it done before 3 pmIf you're going to nap.
They said the optimal time 1 pmTo 3 pm Is that nap time.
So everybody put that on yourschedules now up on the board.
1 pm To 3 pm.
Brent Harding (20:55):
Pass that on all the battalion chiefs, like we
have to.
Seth Francis (20:58):
Now for that time we're turning off everything.
Seth Weaver (21:00):
Power naps, which are 30 minutes, they consider
they get you to stage 2 in yoursleep cycle And so you hit stage
1 and stage 2 for your powernap.
Then they have a restorativenap, which is a 90 minute, which
is usually one full sleep cycle.
But the coffee nap I thoughtwas pretty cool.
So you drink a cup of coffeeand then you go immediately to
(21:21):
bed, lay down and sleep for 20minutes and then get up after 20
minutes.
And what that does?
they said it gives a bettercaffeine effect.
So your adenosine receptors getkind of a refresh and they
absorb that caffeine better andso you get a better kick from
the caffeine whenever you get upafter 20 minutes now do they
recommend take naps in the samespot?
Seth Francis (21:43):
No, it doesn't matter.
Bed like in bed in bed.
Seth Weaver (21:46):
So that was another thing they went over.
They said the bed is for twothings out there It's for sex
and it's for sleep.
That's it.
No cell phones now Littledisclaimer that out there.
So they said no cell phones.
Don't lay in bed, don't look atyour phones.
(22:06):
Don't watch TV Like they wereeven recommended.
Don't get in there, read books,like whenever you lay in bed
You should train your body toknow hey, i'm laying in bed,
it's time for sleep now, becauseanything else you do in that
bed is training it to think it'sjust a comfort place, it's a
lounge.
We got recliners for that andso they said don't nap in the
recliners.
Whenever it's nap time, go toyour bed.
They said the bed should bethere for naps and for sleep,
(22:29):
and that's it.
Brent Harding (22:30):
And that's probably a tougher stigma, i
think, in the service, becauseyou feel like if you go to your
room to sleep you're being alittle bit more, even though it
doesn't make any sense, but youjust feel like you're being more
lazy than if you just take aquick nap in the recliner right,
or you're being more or likeless social or whatever, and so
that's probably Something that'sa little bit of a hump, i think
, for most crews to be able todo, because the norm definitely
(22:54):
is like I'm gonna take a quicknap.
Seth Weaver (22:56):
We do some target solutions in the recliner real
quick And but I don't know,buddy, all laying that recliner
and I fall in asleep sometimesAnd I always feel like I'm on
the verge of sleep.
So I'll be down for an hour andI just still wake up feeling
like total crap Because I'm likeI was just at the verge of
sleep the whole time.
The TV's going, people aremoving like I can never get.
Seth Francis (23:15):
Like that's one.
Seth Weaver (23:17):
Yeah, somebody snoring like they're dying.
Brent Harding (23:19):
Next to me There's a couple people on the
department that I can just fallasleep like that.
Seth Weaver (23:22):
They can, but just they're out and once again it
goes back to like, yeah, they'reasleep, they're laying there
asleep, but yet they have tosleep for three hours or
whatever it may be, like it'snot that quality that we're
looking for, and so That's whatI'm hoping to educate everybody
on like, yeah, you can go tosleep, but it doesn't mean
you're getting the sleep youneed.
Need to get quality sleep.
Brent Harding (23:42):
Where you're going through those sleep cycles
in Restoring everything so onething that jumped out of me too
with the whole like keepingeverything to your bed And just
as far as sleeping there is, ifit's not working, if you haven't
fallen asleep in like 20minutes, you have to get out of
bed.
Seth Weaver (23:57):
Yeah, 30 minutes.
Brent Harding (23:58):
Just don't lay there and wait to fall asleep,
otherwise you're messing up thatso they said 30 minutes as well
.
Seth Weaver (24:04):
So the study showed you lay in bed for 30 minutes.
If you can't fall asleep, getup, go do the dishes, full
laundry.
Most times we lay there becauseour brains are spinning at 100
miles an hour.
I think we've all had that.
We lay down and we can't shutit off.
So they said you go do thesetasks to help slow down your
brain and after you've done one,go try again for another 30
minutes.
Keep repeating that processuntil you fall asleep.
(24:24):
But the key there was, theysaid, you shouldn't be going to
bed until you're drowsy.
So you should be on the vergeof falling to sleep and saying,
okay, now I'm going to bed, soyou can go lay down and lights
out so that'll help retrain yourbrain as well.
Brent Harding (24:38):
It's kind of amazed me that how much I mean,
how much we're kind of likeAnimals in our dogs.
Like, if you're training a dogto do a certain task, right, a
pattern is everything and if thedog knows you do this task or
this behavior, you get thisreward and You establish this
pattern.
The dog is going to be lockedin and we'll do exactly what you
(24:58):
needed to do because you'veestablished a good pattern.
But then your kids or spouse orsomebody like gives a treat at
the wrong time and startsbreaking that pattern.
It is a ton of work, right, tobring the dog back to That
established pattern.
So it's just kind of impressedme like we're not much better
Right like for us to train ourbodies to sleep, we have to have
(25:19):
that pattern.
The pattern of this place isjust for sleeping, it's not for
looking at phone, not for any ofthat.
If it's not working, get up, godo something else.
And so it's almost like ourgoal is to protect that pattern,
establish the pattern, and thendo everything we can to protect
it, and so and then it's just,you know, it's almost seems too
simple to work, but I think, weover, complicate things a lot
(25:40):
sometimes and really just byBeing intentional about the
pattern we have and we're tryingto fall asleep, i think can go
a long way and getting to thatquality sleep cycle.
Dan Fast (25:50):
Yeah, and I would agree with that.
There's a concept that Ibelieve James clear brings up in
his book Atomic habits, and theidea is like habit stacking,
and so when we're talking aboutsleep hygiene or behaviors that
help us Follow sleep easier orbetter, one thing you got to do
is do a number of these thingsin order, right, kind as you're
(26:10):
talking about.
We're conditioned to kind offollow these patterns, but we
also have to do themconsistently, right?
if you were just to do thesepatterns, you know, two days out
of the week, it's not gonnaprove to be that beneficial for
you or that effective for you.
But if you're trying to do thisas much as you can, that your
schedule allows, or things likethat, you're gonna be able to
find that consistency in beingable to fall asleep, right.
(26:33):
So I think that's superimportant.
And if we're not like stackingthese things, like we're stop
eating Food at a specific timeor we stopped drinking caffeine
at that five o'clock because youknow You're gonna go to bed at
midnight or things like that,and then you have like this
routine where you are doing, youknow, whether it's meditation
or other things, to really windyourself down, to calm yourself
(26:55):
down, so that when you're ableto enter into that drowsiness
Right, it's like okay, i can goto sleep right after that, yeah,
so yeah And I kind of want tocircle back to Captain Fritz's
point is you know, sometimeswe're on shift.
Brent Harding (27:07):
That is like a little bit of a break, We get to
step outside of our normal life, And so I think there's room in
the pattern for that connectionwith our crew.
You know, movie time at night,like like no one's going to want
to disrupt that, to go to bedearly to get because I'm on my
pattern or whatever that I wantto.
I don't want to break thatpattern, And so I think the
(27:28):
human connection side of that isjust as important in my opinion
as the sleep side.
But it just seems to me likethere's room to adjust your
pattern And especially I lovethe like control the time you
get up and not necessarily thetime you go to bed, Because
that's the part.
No one's getting up early towatch a movie, right, Like you
control that part.
Seth Weaver (27:46):
But as far as hanging, out with the crew and
that kind of family time.
He said we'll make all that up.
All that will come into play.
As long as going to sleep atdifferent times, as long as
we're getting up at the sametime every day, it'll all kind
of come out with the wash, so tospeak.
But yeah, just those simplehabits, like I love staying up
with the guys, but I couldprobably not bust open an energy
(28:06):
drink at 11 o'clock, likeCaptain Francis here just
watched me.
Man, i love it.
I just I don't know Like put itaway, man.
Seth Francis (28:12):
Yeah, he tells me dude.
Seth Weaver (28:13):
And I'm like no, it's movie time, let's go, and
you know.
But yet movie's over And I'mstill wide awake, man, i still
got the ceiling I could probablydo without.
So it's just changing thosehabits in myself that I know I
can improve my quality of sleepand still enjoy the quality of
the time with the crew.
Seth Francis (28:28):
Now, what do you guys think about banking hours
of sleep?
Can you bank hours inanticipation of not getting good
quality sleep?
They never mention it.
Seth Weaver (28:38):
But what they did mention was something if we are
sleep deprived.
So remember, sleep insomnia,sleep deprived two different
things.
If we're sleep deprived, thenit takes up to three days to
recover from being sleepdeprived.
Oh man, three full days.
So as far as banking like onenight of some extra sleep, i
don't think does much for usBecause, like we said, if we're
(29:01):
sleeping in, we're still kind ofnot doing ourselves any favor
by sleeping in.
As Dan mentioned, we need toget up at the same time every
day and kind of keep our body inthat cycle.
And so I mean, i don't know,i'm not an expert on it, they
didn't talk much about it, butI'd assume just from the
information I know like that's atough one to do.
Brent Harding (29:22):
It seems like our mindset needs to shift from
counting hours to countingcycles, right, like quality,
like that.
Yeah, it's not about the hoursyou spend sleeping, it's about
how many of those quality cyclesthat you make it through and
get that quality sleep.
Because I'd imagine if you'vegot on your four off, if you
have four solid quality sleepdays, then you could probably
(29:43):
survive a rougher better than ifyou didn't do that.
But yeah, i don't think it andfrom what I've understood, i
don't think it works as I missthree hours here.
So I'm going to make up threehours here ahead of time.
But it certainly helps to haveto come on shift or to like like
even the night before shift.
You know, this may be my lastgood night's sleep for a couple
days.
(30:03):
I'm going to make sure it'sawesome And I go to bed on time
and whatever right, so that Ican function at my best.
Seth Weaver (30:09):
I don't think it's as much banking hours as it is
having a relaxed state of mindLike all right, i'm going to bed
now.
This is going to feel good.
I already felt tired And moreor less you're like mentally
getting prepared to come in andget your butt kicked all night.
you know.
Brent Harding (30:23):
So one and just kind of wrap up on this part of
sleeping which I think isprobably the hardest at times
throughout your career infirefighting is those moments
when you are laying in bed andyou know some of those rougher
calls start coming back And somelike for me it's weird, it's
like sometimes it's a recent one, but a lot of the times it's
(30:43):
just weird.
It's like you'll be layingthere And it's like this call
from like six years ago, likecomes back and it's like why is
that in my head right now?
And then that keeps you fromsleeping.
What and this goes foreverybody, but just kind of,
what have you done or what haveyou found has been most helpful,
as maybe some of those callsstart creeping back up in the
(31:03):
middle of the night to kind of Idon't know process it or to get
through it, so that you know,because sometimes it seems to
linger for a long time.
Seth Weaver (31:12):
But you got 17 years on.
Seth Francis (31:14):
Yeah, i wish I knew.
I would like to have thatanswer as well.
Yeah, because sometimes they docome back, but you just gotta
tuck them away.
Seth Weaver (31:22):
And I don't think I have a healthy way to cope with
it because, like, I woke up at4 am from a bad dream this
morning, So I'm laying there.
what I did?
I distracted my mind.
I pulled up my cell phone andstarted scrolling Instagram.
Until I forgot about it, andthen I fell asleep again.
I got like two more hours ofsleep, so And I think that's it
right.
Brent Harding (31:39):
Like we're gonna find a way to cope with it.
It's whether the coping isactually helping or just kicking
the can down the road.
Because, like, like we'vetalked a lot about the sleep
when we did the conference butfor me, like I can't remember
the last time I fell asleep justbecause I wanted to.
It's always like I fall asleepwatching something And whether
it's at home or on shift, likeeven if I go back to my room,
everybody's going to bed.
I'm usually watching somethingon my phone and I'll wake up
(32:01):
with my phone.
Seth Weaver (32:02):
That's that habit, that's what's happening, and so
it's part of those habits, right?
Brent Harding (32:05):
But it's been my way to like turn off my brain so
that I don't think about thisother stuff, this other baggage
while I'm trying to fall asleep.
It's distracted myself, likeyou said.
some guys it's alcohol or someguys you know whatever they're
trying to do, but they foundsome way to fall asleep.
But there's got to be a betterway, dan, solve our problems.
Yeah, let me help you, right.
Dan Fast (32:26):
So a lot of what you're talking about, too, is
like these whether it'sflashbacks or these anxious
thoughts that you're having,whether it's right before bed,
when you're falling asleep, oreven when you are asleep, you'll
wake up from having some ofthese nightmares or these images
fresh in your mind, And thatactivates the brain, right,
Because the brain has a hardtime differentiating between
(32:49):
what's reality and what's goingon when you're dreaming some of
these things, right?
And so I mean doing a lot oftrauma work or even working with
thoughts, specifically thoughtsthat are anxious thoughts.
being able to use things likeCBT or there's, you know,
specific modalities out therelike EMDR or ART accelerated
(33:11):
resolution therapy that can helpkind of process those images so
that they don't disturb you, sothat when you do lay down to go
to sleep that they're not asstrong or they're not as present
, Because those absolutely willdisrupt those regular cycles
that you need.
And so being able to go to that.
and so that's kind of where wecome in as clinicians.
(33:32):
we're trained in that, or atleast a number of us are, and we
work with people through thoseso that they're not disrupted by
that, Because what we know isif people's sleep is disrupted,
they're at a greater risk forsuicide, for anxiety and
depression, and that kind ofjust perpetuates itself.
And so if you're never fullytaking care of these things,
(33:53):
they're always gonna be there,Just like you guys were talking
about.
you kind of just push it awayand it works right, Like you'll
whip out your phone and you kindof aren't thinking about these
things anymore.
but it doesn't mean it's gone,It's just gone for the time,
right, And it'll come back.
And so being able to processthrough these things with a
mental health professional Ithink will prove to be
(34:16):
beneficial for anyone that'sstruggling with something like
this.
Brent Harding (34:19):
Yeah, and I think you said it at the beginning.
Right Like when we're trying tosleep, it's our brain's time to
like process the experiences ofthe day right And so yeah, on a
traumatic call, especially ifwe had one that day.
Like our brain's gonna beworking overtime while we're
trying to sleep to try toprocess that.
And so it makes sense to talk toa trained professional to help
(34:43):
get the correct processing done.
It seems like I don't know fromsome of the.
I mean, it's not like nothing'san overnight fix, but it just
seems like the more I've beenable to process some of those
calls, the less they come back.
Or when they do come back, it'snot Nearly as impactful as it
was once.
Dan Fast (35:01):
It's kind of been through that correct Processing
mode well, and a lot of peoplestruggle even reaching REM sleep
.
Like there's a lot of peoplethat don't make REM at all right
.
They don't make it to thatstage, which is why.
So REM stands for rapid eyemovement, right, and a lot of
the trauma modalities that areout there right now Activate
(35:23):
that rapid eye movement.
So when you go in and do these,that's how your brain is
processing these images, and ifit's unable to do so, we have to
do that in real time whenyou're conscious, to be able to
activate that.
And the cool thing about thebrain is the brain knows how to
do these things right.
Sometimes there's things thatget in the way of being able to
(35:43):
do that right, and so we kind ofimplement those modalities in A
therapeutic setting to helppeople do that right.
It's fascinating, it's.
It's.
Seth Weaver (35:53):
Crazy.
It's been neat.
I can speak from my personalexperience where for a long time
I never remembered my dreams,and I think that was my way of
coping for a long time, as Ijust finally started blocking
everything out.
I could wake up with a baddream.
And I'd wake my life up and sheoh, what's wrong?
I don't know.
Like I don't know, i just had abad dream out, i don't know
what about, couldn't tell heranything about it, and I've been
(36:13):
doing that ART therapy.
I'm dreaming and rememberingagain, which has been really
weird.
It kind of shifted the brain.
But at least now I know like,hey, i'm processing these things
again, like they're coming backand now I can talk about them,
i can work through them, andThere are things that I don't
think about anymore, but yetthere's still some.
So I could just I'm goingthrough my bucket, i'm clearing
(36:34):
it out as I got.
It was pretty interesting tosee how my brain adapted once I
started doing ART.
Dan Fast (36:40):
Yeah, that's powerful.
Brent Harding (36:41):
I'm glad I'm not crazy, because I did ART for the
first time like three or fourweeks ago And my sleep was so
weird.
After that, like like I andit's just weird dreams, but like
I, like I never before that hadlike yeah, same thing, like I'd
wake up.
I didn't know if I dreamt ornot.
And Now after that, for atleast a couple weeks after doing
it, like I would wake up andI'd remember the dream for like
(37:03):
the first couple minutes Andthen it would like then you
can't remember it anymore.
Yeah, but I didn't make theconnection until you said it.
Dan is like, rem is like, andthen ART, or basically the same
thing.
Seth Weaver (37:12):
Ert is like a conscious like REM.
Yeah, and I thought that makesso much sense going into it.
I was telling her I was likeyou can't hypnotize me, you
crazy lady.
I was having a very rednecklike you ain't gonna fool me and
I let her try it and, sureenough, i came out of there
thinking like, oh, that was justweird, that didn't help.
But then I tried to sleep and Istarted doing these things.
Brent Harding (37:31):
I was like, okay, it did, it had a bit of a turn
right, because the whole time Ifelt the same way.
I was like, yeah, i don't thinkI'm doing.
I didn't want to tell him Likeassess myself.
Seth Weaver (37:42):
I was like, i felt like once again I don't know
what to do in my hands And it'stotally weird and people are
super skeptical of it too, right.
Dan Fast (37:49):
But in that process of therapy it's like trust your
brain, because your brain knowswhat to do.
And it's gonna feel weird Andit's gonna feel hokey, but like,
yeah, the brain, the brain isso powerful, right, and so we
just have to trust that yeah.
Brent Harding (38:04):
Well and I think that's a great way to end is
just remembering that.
You know, we really alreadyhave all the tools we need, like
they're there.
Our brain is capable of fixingitself And sometimes we just
need that little extra coaching,and that can come from, you
know, the peer support team,which is exactly why we're here
doing podcasts and trying tohelp support people in any way
we can, whether it's privately,by Just providing some of the
(38:26):
information you want to kind ofdo the self-help on your own or
providing access, easy accessand private access To all our
vetted clinicians, like Dan, theothers on the website.
But we hope that anybody that'slistening is willing to reach
out and talk to any one of us,because we're always happy to at
least get you pointed in theright direction and get you
started on Path to better sleep,if nothing else.
(38:47):
So Thanks everybody for beinghere today and we'll catch you
on the next one.
Dan Fast (38:51):
Thanks, thank you, thank you.
Welcome to another episode of our
firefighter support podcast.
We are excited to have with ustoday Dan fast, a new clinician
in town, captain Seth Francisand also Seth We were joining us
again.
Before we get into our topic,let's get an introduction from
ban and captain Francis.
Dan, why don't you kick us offand tell us a little bit about
you and how you got intoclinician work?
Dan Fast (00:19):
Yeah, thanks.
So I am the clinic director ofthe Logan sandstone psychology
and I got into this because, youknow, i I've experienced a lot
of crises in my life, a lot ofdeath and suicide, that I've
been surrounded by andexperienced my own mental health
challenges over over the courseof my life, and so, you know,
(00:42):
in my journey I found someonethat helped me be better
essentially, and or becomebetter and grow into the person
that I am now, and so I wantedto give back and be that one
person for someone else, and Somy experiences and background is
in marriage and family therapy.
So I work a lot with couples andfamilies and individuals as
(01:03):
well, but the system of, or theframework of, therapy that I do
is systemic and we're all partof a system.
We're all affected by everyonearound us and we're not isolated
from that, and so I'm asystemic therapist and I like to
bring in a lot of people to dothat work, because while
something might affect you, itaffects everyone in your system,
(01:24):
and so it's important toincorporate that.
So that's a little bit about me.
Brent Harding (01:29):
Yeah, that's great.
Maybe just one quick follow-upon that is going through it
yourself and kind of seeing whatis kind of your Outlook on
change.
You know, it seems like like ifonce you experience kind of
that change yourself, gettingfrom a bad spot to a better spot
, and then you just kind of havethis renewed sense of what
other people can accomplish andchange from, no matter what's
(01:49):
kind of happened to them intheir life.
Dan Fast (01:51):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Let me say this most peoplecome into my office expecting
change And they don't knowwhat's required of them to get
there.
At the same time, i didn't knowwhat was required of me, and
what I think that I've learnedover the years in myself seeing
other people change is It comesdown to consistency and effort
(02:11):
and patience with yourself andresilience and developing some
of those things.
So my outlook on change is It'spossible.
A lot of people think that it's.
It's not.
You know, i have couples comein and they're like my husband
can't change or my wife can'tchange or my kids can't change.
But that thought in and ofitself is limiting.
You know what I mean.
And so my thought on changescan you change?
(02:34):
Do you believe that you canchange?
And if so, then change ispossible.
And I think that personally, ifwe're not trying to like grow
and progress, i mean we're goingto stay stagnant, we're not
going to.
We're not going to get to Wherewe want to be.
We're not going to be theperson that we want to be If
we're stuck in that.
Brent Harding (02:53):
Yeah, no, i think that's a great point, because I
think a lot of times We justfeel like naturally, that change
is going to occur, like if Ijust keep plugging along, you
know, i mean these things in mylife that I don't like, whether
it's my relationship or Certainbehaviors I have, or sleep
deprivation or whatever likeI'll just keep plugging along
and eventually it'll get better.
(03:13):
But I think we misunderstand ormaybe don't appreciate the
value of having the right toolsto facilitate the change right,
and so I think that's great Andthat's why we love having
clinicians here is because theyhave all the training in the
tools and and things to give usa different perspective, that,
even though firefighters thinkwe know it all, there's probably
one or two, maybe two things wedon't know yet And so we're
(03:35):
hoping clinicians can kind offill those gaps.
Dan Fast (03:37):
So yeah, well, i'm happy to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, captain.
Brent Harding (03:41):
Francis Tell us tell us, give us the a picture
of the deep mind.
Oh man, there's not a lot ofdeepness here.
Seth Francis (03:49):
Seth Francis, captain, paramedic, been with
lovin fire for 17 years,volunteer firefighter before
that for five years, still a newcaptain, going on Two and a
half years as a captain now, sostill learning quite a bit.
Brent Harding (04:04):
And yeah, where did you?
I didn't know you were avolunteer.
Where was?
you doing that in mending.
Seth Weaver (04:08):
Yep.
Brent Harding (04:09):
Cool.
What was the transition likefor you going from volunteer to?
Seth Francis (04:12):
full time.
I was green, so green It was.
It was scary.
It was scary, but it was fun.
Brent Harding (04:19):
Yeah, awesome, and tell us a little bit about
your career with logan.
Is you kind of have Like, didyou always hope you're gonna
promote up the ladder to becaptain?
Is that something that kind ofyou know changed later on or no,
for a long time I wasn't.
Seth Francis (04:32):
I had no desire at all to be a captain.
I wanted to be an engineer andBecome an engineer.
I went and got my medic tobecome an engineer, and then
from there, it's just like man,let's just keep moving on.
And so here I am.
Seth Weaver (04:48):
Yeah, battalion chief next for south francis.
there We'll see it.
Brent Harding (04:52):
Speaking of couples counseling, i don't know
if that applies to, like firecrews, but maybe we should do a
life session.
Seth Francis (04:57):
We probably have some counseling for the two of
us A live session for you too.
Seth Weaver (05:01):
I love them, but I hate them at the same time.
It's it confuses me.
Brent Harding (05:05):
Well, so one of the things we wanted to go over
today and me and seth I had achance to go to a conference in
rena where they talked a lotabout sleep and the impact that
has for better, for worse onfirefighters and Both on and off
shift, and so, seth, you gotyour.
You took much better notes atthe conference than.
I did, i can kick us off alittle bit, tell us a little bit
(05:27):
about some of the things thatwe walked away with from the
conference and what Stood out toyou.
Seth Weaver (05:32):
That's pretty interesting.
It was over Cognitivebehavioral therapy for sleep
insomnia is what the main pointwas, but there was a lot of
facts in there that I don'tthink many of us realized are
happening with this, with oursleep.
So 40 percent of firefightershave a sleep disorder is what
the study found, with 80 percentNot knowing that.
(05:54):
So those are pretty highnumbers whenever you look at it.
I think last time I readthere's something like Just over
a million firefighters in theunited states and then there you
got another 300 000 that arejust EMTs or paramedics,
specifically on the medical side, and so you look at that
combination, that's a largenumber that have sleep disorders
.
And if you know firefighters,we don't like to do tests, we
(06:16):
don't like to be analyzed, andso I'm imagining that number is
pretty low because there's a lotof them out there that just
said no, not doing this, and sowe don't know.
So if you look at those numbers, a lot of us don't know that
they do.
But the effects of sleepinsomnia are great.
We already have enough scares.
We've already talked aboutcancer, poor nutrition, health
(06:37):
Whenever we're not gettingenough sleep or getting enough
quality sleep.
You know we all nap, but ifit's not quality sleep it leads
to.
It leads to cardiovasculardisease, anxiety, depression
take a hit there too, and thendiabetes even comes out of it.
And then we get into our moodswings.
So how we interact with peopleand our families and stuff are
(06:57):
huge too.
I met him in Somnia So it waspretty interesting to listen to
him kind of talk about that Andthen he got into kind of ways we
can improve it.
So I'm a big fan of like if Iknow how it works, then I can
fix it.
You know, i don't like justlistening to people teach me how
it works And that can fix it.
And so we went over the sleepcycle and kind of why we need
(07:18):
each stage of sleep And if wedon't get it, what's happening
to us.
So it was a good conference Didyou?
Brent Harding (07:23):
did it have a good definition in there for
what a sleep like?
what classifies as a sleepdisorder Like is that me, and on
average, you're getting so much, Yeah, there was a few.
Seth Weaver (07:31):
The biggest one was , like their sleep deprivation,
where you're not getting enoughsleep.
Sleep insomnia is where andcorrect me if I'm wrong, you
might know a better definitionbut it was your ability to not
go to sleep Or get a qualitynight's sleep.
So whenever you do fall asleep,you're not sleeping well.
So maybe you're only gettinginto stage one and REM sleeping.
(07:52):
You're not hitting stage twoand three and you need
everything to get it proper.
You can't just have nitpickingstages there And so yeah, right,
no, that's exactly right.
Dan Fast (08:02):
And with that, with the sleep stages, there's four
sleep stages, but you'resupposed to have at least four
to five cycles of that eachnight, and so if it's fragmented
and you're only getting likeone or two, i mean that's that
insomnia that we're talkingabout that can disrupt and
create a number of those issuesfor people.
Seth Weaver (08:20):
That's why sometimes you get eight hours of
sleep at night and you wake upand you're like why do I feel
like crap?
It's because you're not gettingquality sleep.
You're not going through thatcycle a couple of times like you
should.
You're jumping around andyou're disturbing your own sleep
and you don't even know it,just by what you do during the
day.
that was the part I liked.
You talked about some of thethings you do during the day
that affect you at night.
Brent Harding (08:41):
That's one of the things that I remember from the
conference is he pointed outthat you have to have eight
hours of sleep.
That's a myth, yep.
Really it's more like four orfive, as long as it's quality
Quality.
But if you get four to fivehours of quality sleep, there's
no reason for you to feel likeyou have to have eight, or I
think sometimes we get ourselvesinto a mental rut of if I don't
(09:02):
get eight, then I've alreadyset myself up for failure for
the day, and the reality isthat's not true at all.
Seth Weaver (09:07):
Right, Like if you got a few good quality hours.
you're just.
The national recommendation isseven hours of sleep, officially
from the Sleep Foundation.
But yeah, if you're gettinggood cycles all the way through
and then that four to five hours, you're just fine.
There's no problems there.
Brent Harding (09:23):
Yeah, And so anybody can chime in on this.
But what, like during sleep,there's specific functions your
brain is doing.
It's not like your brain shutsoff during that time.
Right From what I've understood, it's like while you're getting
good sleep you're kind ofbanking those memories.
Seth Weaver (09:38):
Correct.
Brent Harding (09:38):
Is that right?
And it's almost like somebodycompared it to like doing a
firmware update on your phone orcomputer.
It's like when you're sleepingit gives your brain time kind of
process stuff, kind of installthe new updates, so that when
you wake up the next day you'rekind of I don't know at full
function or whatever.
Dan Fast (09:54):
Yeah, i mean, there's a number of things that the
brain does, like cellregeneration, for when you're
asleep, but to what you'retalking about as well is the
brain is logging the experienceof the day, storing it in
long-term memory or things thatit's going to need to recall,
essentially to protect you goingforward.
Right, and that's why we knowthat people that you know have
(10:15):
experienced trauma, typicallythey have a hard time falling
asleep because the brain ishaving a really hard time
falling asleep or staying asleep.
The brain is having a hard timelogging those things right.
So, yeah, in addition to thatcell regeneration and things
along those lines, to be able tohelp you properly function I
(10:35):
mean, when we think about sleep,it is a biological function
There is a necessity for us toget proper sleep so that we can
do the things that are necessarythroughout our day, and without
that, we've run into thoseproblems anxiety, depression,
obesity, diabetes things likethat.
Brent Harding (10:53):
Yeah, so maybe Captain Francis give us a
picture of having the mostexperienced firefighter here,
because sometimes it's good andwell to talk about all the
ideals right, it's ideal to getX amount of hours of sleep and
hit all these cycles, but shiftwork kind of screws that up,
especially B-shifts 72.
Seth Francis (11:12):
I swear, you guys are up every single night like
sleep all day, you're in allnight.
We're our worst enemies onsleep too.
You know, at work We'll stay upand shoot the shit or watch a
movie, and then we'll try and goto bed, and it's after midnight
And then what happens?
We have a call.
So it's like you know weprobably need to do better and
(11:33):
go to sleep a little earlier.
But you know, it's kind of likea little vacay when we're away
from home, enjoy each other'scompany.
But yeah, i believe we're ourown worst enemies on that.
We could do a little better.
Brent Harding (11:44):
Has it changed it all for you over the career,
for different sleep patterns,like maybe year one and two, or
you didn't have that many callsbehind you, versus now you have,
you know, a ton of calls behindyou that maybe you're getting
less sleep Yeah.
Seth Francis (11:59):
No, well, i'd say I'm getting the worst sleep now
as I have ever.
Just being a captain, i'm uplistening to the radio making
sure everybody's okay If I'vegot a crew out on a transfer.
I can't sleep.
But I'd say my sleep is worseas a captain now But I still get
, you know that, good four orfive hours hopefully, yeah.
Brent Harding (12:22):
And so maybe we can jump into some of the things
that we can do to get bettersleep.
I know one thing that I don'tknow if this is from the
conference or from somethingelse I was looking at, but I was
talking specifically aboutfirefighters and shift work, and
while it's never ideal to haveto get up in the middle of the
night, the attitude that youhave when you wake up is either
(12:42):
gonna Well, it's a catalysteither way for positive or
negative.
And so if you wake up and Youknow you're getting a call, and
you're just super angry andfrustrated and you're just you
know It's some frequent flyernot that it ever happens to you
guys, but Riverwalk Parkway, butyou know and but that just
propels the negative aspect ofhaving to get up in the middle
(13:05):
of the night.
Seth Francis (13:05):
That's just like or is gasoline on the fire?
That's a lot.
It goes downhill.
You've got to wake up and evenif you've only been asleep an
hour, you got to have thatmental.
You know like, hey, let's go ona call, yeah.
And then things go good.
But if you do wake up andyou're just pissed off, It's
yeah, that never happens, thatbe.
Brent Harding (13:25):
Well, it's hard, right, it's super hard to
maintain that attitude, but ifyou think about it, this isn't
just about like trying to be theultra optimistic person, but
it's actually for my well-being.
The guy, the article I wasreading and it compared it to an
airbag.
Right, it's never good to getin a car wreck, right, but if
you can maintain a semi positiveattitude when you get up in the
middle of the night, it justmakes it a softer landing on
(13:47):
your body versus this jarring.
I mean imagine cracks with noairbag or that's going to have
much more significant injuriesthan Somebody had an airbag seat
belt, all the protections, andso they just kind of framed it
as our attitude.
Is that Kind of protection forour mental?
Seth Francis (14:02):
well-being definitely a positive attitude.
It is what you need to have inthe fire service on those middle
of the night calls.
Dan Fast (14:08):
Well, and I'm sure it also helps like work to be
better as a team.
Seth Francis (14:12):
Oh, yeah, if you've got someone that's woke
up and they're just pissed offThat the team doesn't function.
Dan Fast (14:18):
Yeah, throws that dynamic off, and then It makes
it hard to work together.
Brent Harding (14:22):
Yeah, I just trust the captain's gonna fix it
.
Seth Weaver (14:29):
This is a story about life, though, like in
everything, you have a choice.
You can choose to be happy oryou can choose to be negative.
So if we just keep implementingthat into whenever it's tough
which it's tough at 4 am,whenever you're going on like a
dumb call, it's tough to chooseto be happy to go on that call.
But if we can do it, then wecan do it with everything in
life And it just rolls into thenext day and the next week and
(14:50):
whenever those really hardmoments come.
Once again, we've already beenthrough it, waking up at night
and choosing to be happy.
We can keep it going.
Brent Harding (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, and maybe even just telling yourself
I can, you know, hopefullywe'll get some catch up on this
in the morning or get a good napor something, you know, if the
captain lets us but maybe walkthrough some of the other things
, that some of the other stufffrom the conference, those kind
of bullet points that they gaveus of some steps you can take to
fall asleep faster and to getbetter quality.
Seth Weaver (15:17):
So I want to talk a little bit about that sleep
cycle.
So there's stage one, which isa light sleep.
Stage two I just call it kindof medium sleep.
Stage three is deep and thenyou have REM rem after that And
that's the full cycle of sleepthat you need to get.
That they talked about, andthere's some contributing
factors during the day that whatwe do Determines if we get a
(15:37):
full cycle or if we jump around.
One of the things they hit onpretty hard was that alcohol
lowers our quality of sleep andmakes it more disruptive.
Most people think, hey, let mehave a couple of shots to go to
sleep, put me to sleep.
But what they don't realize isthey're actually disrupting
their sleep by doing that.
The recommendation was Withinthree hours of bed.
(15:57):
You don't drink alcohol withinthree hours of bed because what
happens is it puts you to sleepquicker, but as it metabolizes
in your body it actually does anadrenaline dump And so it wakes
you up after a short amount oftime, or it makes you kind of
start stirring and get crazylegs in your sleep, and so that
will affect your sleep quality.
So while it might put you tobed fast, you're not going to
(16:18):
get the quality of sleep youneed.
Dan Fast (16:20):
Well, and I would agree with that and in, in
addition to that, conditioningyourself to do that every night
And let's say there was one timewhere you didn't have the
opportunity That's going toinhibit your ability to fall
asleep, when you're staying uplater or longer and Or not
getting the rest that your bodyneeds.
Seth Weaver (16:36):
Yeah, whenever you drink within three hours of
going to bed, i believe theysaid you spend majority of your
sleep time in REM, so you're notgetting all the stages like you
need.
You just sitting REM sleep andso it's not a quality sleep.
You need your cycles To gothrough.
So that was pretty interestingand they talked about a lot of
us might take some melatonin orsomething to help us Go to bed.
Well, whenever they do, thestudy about that actually
(16:59):
increases Your ability to go tosleep by 10 to 30 minutes.
That's it.
That's all it does for.
So you're going to sleep sooner, for 10 to 30 minutes, but
whenever you stop, you're rightback where you started.
So it does not fix insomnia.
It puts a band-aid over.
It helps you for that littlebit 10 to 30 minute window, but
other than that, you're notfixing the problem.
So we need to look at okay,what's causing me to have
(17:21):
insomnia and how can I fix this?
Dan Fast (17:23):
right.
I mean I don't know about youguys, but anytime I take
melatonin to go to sleep I'mback up in like 30 minutes.
You know like Didn't get you alittle nap and now you're up for
forever.
Yep Yeah.
Seth Weaver (17:34):
Yeah, so that was some of some good stuff they
gave to us, just about thoselittle things there, but some of
the changes we can make.
You know, it's like theyrecommended going to waking up
at the same time every day.
That was a big push they had asfar as going to bed and they
said that's gonna, you know,very in our day-to-day schedule
when we go to sleep.
But they recommended make sureyou're getting up at the same
(17:56):
time every day.
It helps train your body Toknow when it's time to sleep,
when it's time to wake up, andso it can start regulating going
through those cycles for you.
Brent Harding (18:05):
Oh, that was pretty neat, yeah, something
that's hard to do on shift allthe time.
But I think it makes it thatmuch more critical if our sleep
practices are good On the fouroff, like because we need it.
Like those four off we need Thesleep because we know the two
on are going to be a little bitrougher, but I even found it
interesting.
Seth Weaver (18:23):
So whenever I was a probationary firefighter, i was
determined to get up beforeeverybody else.
Even if I took a transfer at 3am And I got back at 5, my alarm
was going off at 6 30 and I wasgetting up and I found
Throughout my day I felt alittle happier than normal.
Now I'm not on probation, thatdrive to beat everybody up isn't
(18:44):
quite there.
So I come back and it's hardfor me to get out of bed after a
late night transfer And so I'msleeping till 9 10 o'clock
trying to make up for that latenight transfer.
And I get up and I'm stillgrumpy and groggy and feeling a
little bit more ill-temperedthan normal.
And so whenever they startedtalking about getting up at the
same time every day for thatyear I was on probation and
(19:04):
doing this I meant like I didfeel better.
Yeah, i wasn't getting as muchsleep at night, but yet I felt
better in my days because, idon't know, i guess that's why I
was helping my body regulate.
Dan Fast (19:16):
Well, a lot of people think that if, oh, i didn't get
a whole lot of sleep the nightbefore, so I'm going to try and
get some more tomorrow.
Let's say you sleep three hoursmore than what you would
normally do, so you wake up at 9instead of 6, or something like
that.
That's actually almost the sameeffect of having jet lag, like
your body's not used to that,and so you're kind of thrown
into this.
You're feeling more lethargic orirritable or things like that,
(19:40):
not feeling like you had a fullnight's rest, feeling like, man,
i could go back to sleep andsleep the rest of the day.
Right, we have that groggyfeeling.
Brent Harding (19:49):
Yeah, and there is some ways to make up for it.
I seem like in the class theytalked about.
you know, a good way to nap isas long as this before 3 pm And
Less than an hour I think, andso, oh man, i'm no good at that,
yeah, yeah, no naps at 7 pm.
That doesn't work, okay, yeah.
Seth Weaver (20:05):
So they talked about a couple of naps we can do
, and there's one that's madefor you.
It's called the coffee nap.
Brent Harding (20:10):
It applies to the energy drinks, yeah.
Seth Weaver (20:12):
Yeah, so there's a few things.
They talked about how toimprove our sleep time, but
basically it's we all have badhabits whenever it comes to
sleep and they say it's time toget rid of those bad habits and
put In good habits when it comesto sleep and that's all it is.
It's not our bodies Oh, i canonly fall asleep here.
No, it's a habit and so youjust got to unlearn it and force
yourself to learn a new habit.
But some of the things theytalked about, like naps, cannot
(20:35):
disrupt our night time sleep.
So they recommend like limitnaps to less than 45 minutes and
after like 3 pm, don't napafter 3 pm.
Try to get it done before 3 pmIf you're going to nap.
They said the optimal time 1 pmTo 3 pm Is that nap time.
So everybody put that on yourschedules now up on the board.
1 pm To 3 pm.
Brent Harding (20:55):
Pass that on all the battalion chiefs, like we
have to.
Seth Francis (20:58):
Now for that time we're turning off everything.
Seth Weaver (21:00):
Power naps, which are 30 minutes, they consider
they get you to stage 2 in yoursleep cycle And so you hit stage
1 and stage 2 for your powernap.
Then they have a restorativenap, which is a 90 minute, which
is usually one full sleep cycle.
But the coffee nap I thoughtwas pretty cool.
So you drink a cup of coffeeand then you go immediately to
(21:21):
bed, lay down and sleep for 20minutes and then get up after 20
minutes.
And what that does?
they said it gives a bettercaffeine effect.
So your adenosine receptors getkind of a refresh and they
absorb that caffeine better andso you get a better kick from
the caffeine whenever you get upafter 20 minutes now do they
recommend take naps in the samespot?
Seth Francis (21:43):
No, it doesn't matter.
Bed like in bed in bed.
Seth Weaver (21:46):
So that was another thing they went over.
They said the bed is for twothings out there It's for sex
and it's for sleep.
That's it.
No cell phones now Littledisclaimer that out there.
So they said no cell phones.
Don't lay in bed, don't look atyour phones.
(22:06):
Don't watch TV Like they wereeven recommended.
Don't get in there, read books,like whenever you lay in bed
You should train your body toknow hey, i'm laying in bed,
it's time for sleep now, becauseanything else you do in that
bed is training it to think it'sjust a comfort place, it's a
lounge.
We got recliners for that andso they said don't nap in the
recliners.
Whenever it's nap time, go toyour bed.
They said the bed should bethere for naps and for sleep,
(22:29):
and that's it.
Brent Harding (22:30):
And that's probably a tougher stigma, i
think, in the service, becauseyou feel like if you go to your
room to sleep you're being alittle bit more, even though it
doesn't make any sense, but youjust feel like you're being more
lazy than if you just take aquick nap in the recliner right,
or you're being more or likeless social or whatever, and so
that's probably Something that'sa little bit of a hump, i think
, for most crews to be able todo, because the norm definitely
(22:54):
is like I'm gonna take a quicknap.
Seth Weaver (22:56):
We do some target solutions in the recliner real
quick And but I don't know,buddy, all laying that recliner
and I fall in asleep sometimesAnd I always feel like I'm on
the verge of sleep.
So I'll be down for an hour andI just still wake up feeling
like total crap Because I'm likeI was just at the verge of
sleep the whole time.
The TV's going, people aremoving like I can never get.
Seth Francis (23:15):
Like that's one.
Seth Weaver (23:17):
Yeah, somebody snoring like they're dying.
Brent Harding (23:19):
Next to me There's a couple people on the
department that I can just fallasleep like that.
Seth Weaver (23:22):
They can, but just they're out and once again it
goes back to like, yeah, they'reasleep, they're laying there
asleep, but yet they have tosleep for three hours or
whatever it may be, like it'snot that quality that we're
looking for, and so That's whatI'm hoping to educate everybody
on like, yeah, you can go tosleep, but it doesn't mean
you're getting the sleep youneed.
Need to get quality sleep.
Brent Harding (23:42):
Where you're going through those sleep cycles
in Restoring everything so onething that jumped out of me too
with the whole like keepingeverything to your bed And just
as far as sleeping there is, ifit's not working, if you haven't
fallen asleep in like 20minutes, you have to get out of
bed.
Seth Weaver (23:57):
Yeah, 30 minutes.
Brent Harding (23:58):
Just don't lay there and wait to fall asleep,
otherwise you're messing up thatso they said 30 minutes as well
.
Seth Weaver (24:04):
So the study showed you lay in bed for 30 minutes.
If you can't fall asleep, getup, go do the dishes, full
laundry.
Most times we lay there becauseour brains are spinning at 100
miles an hour.
I think we've all had that.
We lay down and we can't shutit off.
So they said you go do thesetasks to help slow down your
brain and after you've done one,go try again for another 30
minutes.
Keep repeating that processuntil you fall asleep.
(24:24):
But the key there was, theysaid, you shouldn't be going to
bed until you're drowsy.
So you should be on the vergeof falling to sleep and saying,
okay, now I'm going to bed, soyou can go lay down and lights
out so that'll help retrain yourbrain as well.
Brent Harding (24:38):
It's kind of amazed me that how much I mean,
how much we're kind of likeAnimals in our dogs.
Like, if you're training a dogto do a certain task, right, a
pattern is everything and if thedog knows you do this task or
this behavior, you get thisreward and You establish this
pattern.
The dog is going to be lockedin and we'll do exactly what you
(24:58):
needed to do because you'veestablished a good pattern.
But then your kids or spouse orsomebody like gives a treat at
the wrong time and startsbreaking that pattern.
It is a ton of work, right, tobring the dog back to That
established pattern.
So it's just kind of impressedme like we're not much better
Right like for us to train ourbodies to sleep, we have to have
(25:19):
that pattern.
The pattern of this place isjust for sleeping, it's not for
looking at phone, not for any ofthat.
If it's not working, get up, godo something else.
And so it's almost like ourgoal is to protect that pattern,
establish the pattern, and thendo everything we can to protect
it, and so and then it's just,you know, it's almost seems too
simple to work, but I think, weover, complicate things a lot
(25:40):
sometimes and really just byBeing intentional about the
pattern we have and we're tryingto fall asleep, i think can go
a long way and getting to thatquality sleep cycle.
Dan Fast (25:50):
Yeah, and I would agree with that.
There's a concept that Ibelieve James clear brings up in
his book Atomic habits, and theidea is like habit stacking,
and so when we're talking aboutsleep hygiene or behaviors that
help us Follow sleep easier orbetter, one thing you got to do
is do a number of these thingsin order, right, kind as you're
(26:10):
talking about.
We're conditioned to kind offollow these patterns, but we
also have to do themconsistently, right?
if you were just to do thesepatterns, you know, two days out
of the week, it's not gonnaprove to be that beneficial for
you or that effective for you.
But if you're trying to do thisas much as you can, that your
schedule allows, or things likethat, you're gonna be able to
find that consistency in beingable to fall asleep, right.
(26:33):
So I think that's superimportant.
And if we're not like stackingthese things, like we're stop
eating Food at a specific timeor we stopped drinking caffeine
at that five o'clock because youknow You're gonna go to bed at
midnight or things like that,and then you have like this
routine where you are doing, youknow, whether it's meditation
or other things, to really windyourself down, to calm yourself
(26:55):
down, so that when you're ableto enter into that drowsiness
Right, it's like okay, i can goto sleep right after that, yeah,
so yeah And I kind of want tocircle back to Captain Fritz's
point is you know, sometimeswe're on shift.
Brent Harding (27:07):
That is like a little bit of a break, We get to
step outside of our normal life, And so I think there's room in
the pattern for that connectionwith our crew.
You know, movie time at night,like like no one's going to want
to disrupt that, to go to bedearly to get because I'm on my
pattern or whatever that I wantto.
I don't want to break thatpattern, And so I think the
(27:28):
human connection side of that isjust as important in my opinion
as the sleep side.
But it just seems to me likethere's room to adjust your
pattern And especially I lovethe like control the time you
get up and not necessarily thetime you go to bed, Because
that's the part.
No one's getting up early towatch a movie, right, Like you
control that part.
Seth Weaver (27:46):
But as far as hanging, out with the crew and
that kind of family time.
He said we'll make all that up.
All that will come into play.
As long as going to sleep atdifferent times, as long as
we're getting up at the sametime every day, it'll all kind
of come out with the wash, so tospeak.
But yeah, just those simplehabits, like I love staying up
with the guys, but I couldprobably not bust open an energy
(28:06):
drink at 11 o'clock, likeCaptain Francis here just
watched me.
Man, i love it.
I just I don't know Like put itaway, man.
Seth Francis (28:12):
Yeah, he tells me dude.
Seth Weaver (28:13):
And I'm like no, it's movie time, let's go, and
you know.
But yet movie's over And I'mstill wide awake, man, i still
got the ceiling I could probablydo without.
So it's just changing thosehabits in myself that I know I
can improve my quality of sleepand still enjoy the quality of
the time with the crew.
Seth Francis (28:28):
Now, what do you guys think about banking hours
of sleep?
Can you bank hours inanticipation of not getting good
quality sleep?
They never mention it.
Seth Weaver (28:38):
But what they did mention was something if we are
sleep deprived.
So remember, sleep insomnia,sleep deprived two different
things.
If we're sleep deprived, thenit takes up to three days to
recover from being sleepdeprived.
Oh man, three full days.
So as far as banking like onenight of some extra sleep, i
don't think does much for usBecause, like we said, if we're
(29:01):
sleeping in, we're still kind ofnot doing ourselves any favor
by sleeping in.
As Dan mentioned, we need toget up at the same time every
day and kind of keep our body inthat cycle.
And so I mean, i don't know,i'm not an expert on it, they
didn't talk much about it, butI'd assume just from the
information I know like that's atough one to do.
Brent Harding (29:22):
It seems like our mindset needs to shift from
counting hours to countingcycles, right, like quality,
like that.
Yeah, it's not about the hoursyou spend sleeping, it's about
how many of those quality cyclesthat you make it through and
get that quality sleep.
Because I'd imagine if you'vegot on your four off, if you
have four solid quality sleepdays, then you could probably
(29:43):
survive a rougher better than ifyou didn't do that.
But yeah, i don't think it andfrom what I've understood, i
don't think it works as I missthree hours here.
So I'm going to make up threehours here ahead of time.
But it certainly helps to haveto come on shift or to like like
even the night before shift.
You know, this may be my lastgood night's sleep for a couple
days.
(30:03):
I'm going to make sure it'sawesome And I go to bed on time
and whatever right, so that Ican function at my best.
Seth Weaver (30:09):
I don't think it's as much banking hours as it is
having a relaxed state of mindLike all right, i'm going to bed
now.
This is going to feel good.
I already felt tired And moreor less you're like mentally
getting prepared to come in andget your butt kicked all night.
you know.
Brent Harding (30:23):
So one and just kind of wrap up on this part of
sleeping which I think isprobably the hardest at times
throughout your career infirefighting is those moments
when you are laying in bed andyou know some of those rougher
calls start coming back And somelike for me it's weird, it's
like sometimes it's a recent one, but a lot of the times it's
(30:43):
just weird.
It's like you'll be layingthere And it's like this call
from like six years ago, likecomes back and it's like why is
that in my head right now?
And then that keeps you fromsleeping.
What and this goes foreverybody, but just kind of,
what have you done or what haveyou found has been most helpful,
as maybe some of those callsstart creeping back up in the
(31:03):
middle of the night to kind of Idon't know process it or to get
through it, so that you know,because sometimes it seems to
linger for a long time.
Seth Weaver (31:12):
But you got 17 years on.
Seth Francis (31:14):
Yeah, i wish I knew.
I would like to have thatanswer as well.
Yeah, because sometimes they docome back, but you just gotta
tuck them away.
Seth Weaver (31:22):
And I don't think I have a healthy way to cope with
it because, like, I woke up at4 am from a bad dream this
morning, So I'm laying there.
what I did?
I distracted my mind.
I pulled up my cell phone andstarted scrolling Instagram.
Until I forgot about it, andthen I fell asleep again.
I got like two more hours ofsleep, so And I think that's it
right.
Brent Harding (31:39):
Like we're gonna find a way to cope with it.
It's whether the coping isactually helping or just kicking
the can down the road.
Because, like, like we'vetalked a lot about the sleep
when we did the conference butfor me, like I can't remember
the last time I fell asleep justbecause I wanted to.
It's always like I fall asleepwatching something And whether
it's at home or on shift, likeeven if I go back to my room,
everybody's going to bed.
I'm usually watching somethingon my phone and I'll wake up
(32:01):
with my phone.
Seth Weaver (32:02):
That's that habit, that's what's happening, and so
it's part of those habits, right?
Brent Harding (32:05):
But it's been my way to like turn off my brain so
that I don't think about thisother stuff, this other baggage
while I'm trying to fall asleep.
It's distracted myself, likeyou said.
some guys it's alcohol or someguys you know whatever they're
trying to do, but they foundsome way to fall asleep.
But there's got to be a betterway, dan, solve our problems.
Yeah, let me help you, right.
Dan Fast (32:26):
So a lot of what you're talking about, too, is
like these whether it'sflashbacks or these anxious
thoughts that you're having,whether it's right before bed,
when you're falling asleep, oreven when you are asleep, you'll
wake up from having some ofthese nightmares or these images
fresh in your mind, And thatactivates the brain, right,
Because the brain has a hardtime differentiating between
(32:49):
what's reality and what's goingon when you're dreaming some of
these things, right?
And so I mean doing a lot oftrauma work or even working with
thoughts, specifically thoughtsthat are anxious thoughts.
being able to use things likeCBT or there's, you know,
specific modalities out therelike EMDR or ART accelerated
(33:11):
resolution therapy that can helpkind of process those images so
that they don't disturb you, sothat when you do lay down to go
to sleep that they're not asstrong or they're not as present
, Because those absolutely willdisrupt those regular cycles
that you need.
And so being able to go to that.
and so that's kind of where wecome in as clinicians.
(33:32):
we're trained in that, or atleast a number of us are, and we
work with people through thoseso that they're not disrupted by
that, Because what we know isif people's sleep is disrupted,
they're at a greater risk forsuicide, for anxiety and
depression, and that kind ofjust perpetuates itself.
And so if you're never fullytaking care of these things,
(33:53):
they're always gonna be there,Just like you guys were talking
about.
you kind of just push it awayand it works right, Like you'll
whip out your phone and you kindof aren't thinking about these
things anymore.
but it doesn't mean it's gone,It's just gone for the time,
right, And it'll come back.
And so being able to processthrough these things with a
mental health professional Ithink will prove to be
(34:16):
beneficial for anyone that'sstruggling with something like
this.
Brent Harding (34:19):
Yeah, and I think you said it at the beginning.
Right Like when we're trying tosleep, it's our brain's time to
like process the experiences ofthe day right And so yeah, on a
traumatic call, especially ifwe had one that day.
Like our brain's gonna beworking overtime while we're
trying to sleep to try toprocess that.
And so it makes sense to talk toa trained professional to help
(34:43):
get the correct processing done.
It seems like I don't know fromsome of the.
I mean, it's not like nothing'san overnight fix, but it just
seems like the more I've beenable to process some of those
calls, the less they come back.
Or when they do come back, it'snot Nearly as impactful as it
was once.
Dan Fast (35:01):
It's kind of been through that correct Processing
mode well, and a lot of peoplestruggle even reaching REM sleep
.
Like there's a lot of peoplethat don't make REM at all right
.
They don't make it to thatstage, which is why.
So REM stands for rapid eyemovement, right, and a lot of
the trauma modalities that areout there right now Activate
(35:23):
that rapid eye movement.
So when you go in and do these,that's how your brain is
processing these images, and ifit's unable to do so, we have to
do that in real time whenyou're conscious, to be able to
activate that.
And the cool thing about thebrain is the brain knows how to
do these things right.
Sometimes there's things thatget in the way of being able to
(35:43):
do that right, and so we kind ofimplement those modalities in A
therapeutic setting to helppeople do that right.
It's fascinating, it's.
It's.
Seth Weaver (35:53):
Crazy.
It's been neat.
I can speak from my personalexperience where for a long time
I never remembered my dreams,and I think that was my way of
coping for a long time, as Ijust finally started blocking
everything out.
I could wake up with a baddream.
And I'd wake my life up and sheoh, what's wrong?
I don't know.
Like I don't know, i just had abad dream out, i don't know
what about, couldn't tell heranything about it, and I've been
(36:13):
doing that ART therapy.
I'm dreaming and rememberingagain, which has been really
weird.
It kind of shifted the brain.
But at least now I know like,hey, i'm processing these things
again, like they're coming backand now I can talk about them,
i can work through them, andThere are things that I don't
think about anymore, but yetthere's still some.
So I could just I'm goingthrough my bucket, i'm clearing
(36:34):
it out as I got.
It was pretty interesting tosee how my brain adapted once I
started doing ART.
Dan Fast (36:40):
Yeah, that's powerful.
Brent Harding (36:41):
I'm glad I'm not crazy, because I did ART for the
first time like three or fourweeks ago And my sleep was so
weird.
After that, like like I andit's just weird dreams, but like
I, like I never before that hadlike yeah, same thing, like I'd
wake up.
I didn't know if I dreamt ornot.
And Now after that, for atleast a couple weeks after doing
it, like I would wake up andI'd remember the dream for like
(37:03):
the first couple minutes Andthen it would like then you
can't remember it anymore.
Yeah, but I didn't make theconnection until you said it.
Dan is like, rem is like, andthen ART, or basically the same
thing.
Seth Weaver (37:12):
Ert is like a conscious like REM.
Yeah, and I thought that makesso much sense going into it.
I was telling her I was likeyou can't hypnotize me, you
crazy lady.
I was having a very rednecklike you ain't gonna fool me and
I let her try it and, sureenough, i came out of there
thinking like, oh, that was justweird, that didn't help.
But then I tried to sleep and Istarted doing these things.
Brent Harding (37:31):
I was like, okay, it did, it had a bit of a turn
right, because the whole time Ifelt the same way.
I was like, yeah, i don't thinkI'm doing.
I didn't want to tell him Likeassess myself.
Seth Weaver (37:42):
I was like, i felt like once again I don't know
what to do in my hands And it'stotally weird and people are
super skeptical of it too, right.
Dan Fast (37:49):
But in that process of therapy it's like trust your
brain, because your brain knowswhat to do.
And it's gonna feel weird Andit's gonna feel hokey, but like,
yeah, the brain, the brain isso powerful, right, and so we
just have to trust that yeah.
Brent Harding (38:04):
Well and I think that's a great way to end is
just remembering that.
You know, we really alreadyhave all the tools we need, like
they're there.
Our brain is capable of fixingitself And sometimes we just
need that little extra coaching,and that can come from, you
know, the peer support team,which is exactly why we're here
doing podcasts and trying tohelp support people in any way
we can, whether it's privately,by Just providing some of the
(38:26):
information you want to kind ofdo the self-help on your own or
providing access, easy accessand private access To all our
vetted clinicians, like Dan, theothers on the website.
But we hope that anybody that'slistening is willing to reach
out and talk to any one of us,because we're always happy to at
least get you pointed in theright direction and get you
started on Path to better sleep,if nothing else.
(38:47):
So Thanks everybody for beinghere today and we'll catch you
on the next one.
Dan Fast (38:51):
Thanks, thank you, thank you.
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