March 28, 2025 • 37 mins
Join host Miguel Sanchez on First Gen 101 as he interviews Miguel Lluesma, an inspiring first-generation attorney. In this episode, Miguel Lluesma shares his journey from the pivotal moments that sparked his passion for law to the challenges of law school and his impactful career in social justice. Learn about the profound influence of social events, the rigorous process of preparing for the LSAT, preparing for the bar exam, and his transition from law school to practicing as an attorney. Discover valuable insights and tips for anyone considering a career in law, especially for first-generation students navigating this demanding field. Don't miss this compelling story of resilience, purpose, and the pursuit of justice.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Miguel Sanchez (00:10):
Welcome to First Gen 101, the podcast where
first generation graduates sharetheir stories and career tips.
I am your host, Miguel Sanchez.
In this episode, Miguel Lluesmashares his inspiring path to
becoming an attorney.
From the pivotal moments thatsparked his passion for law to
the challenges of law school,Miguel's story one of resilience
(00:33):
and purpose.
If you're considering a careerin law, this episode is a must
listen.
Welcome to another episode ofFirst Gen 101.
we have Miguel Lluesma.
thank you for joining me today.
Miguel Lluesma (00:49):
Thank you for having me.
Miguel Sanchez (00:51):
Known each other for several years now,
attend the same church, and Iremember when you left off to
law school.
I remember how exciting that daywas for the church the church
hosted a farewell, during thetime I remember how excited you
were So let's start with that.
(01:11):
Why did you decide to become alawyer?
Miguel Lluesma (01:14):
Yeah, I'll go all the way back when I was a
kid.
I was always very argumentative.
And adults would always jokearound and tell me, you should
be a lawyer?
someday.
And I would laugh it off becauseI never thought I would go to
law school and go through thatprocess.
I thought was too difficult andthat someone like me wouldn't be
able to do it.
But over the years, there werecertain things happening around
(01:37):
me, that kind of started puttinga fire inside of me.
And, just the first Time thishappened would be, when I was in
college, when Trayvon Martin waskilled by George Zimmerman, I
remember being, either afreshman or a sophomore.
I can't remember exactly aroundthe time, but, I remember
feeling really impacted by whathappened then.
(01:58):
And for those who might not knowthe story, that was, a young,
Black man who was, walking homefrom the store.
During All Star Weekend forbasketball, sometime in
February.
A self proclaimed neighborhoodwatch guy, George Zimmerman,
followed him.
There was an altercation, andeventually Trayvon Martin was
shot and killed, it sparked ahuge outrage in the country
(02:21):
over, you know, violence, theway that we treat Black people
in this country.
And then also, since he was selfproclaimed Neighborhood Watch,
there was also some aspect oflaw enforcement in there.
And then, in the months thatfollowed, there were other,
incidents with law enforcementand unarmed Black men.
I remember watching that, andfeeling like, man, this isn't
(02:44):
right.
Something's off.
Something's wrong.
I also felt somewhat, personalbecause I'm brown.
And I've had my run ins with lawenforcement.
Sometimes I was guilty.
Sometimes I wasn't.
Sometimes I was getting pulledover for running a stop sign.
And sometimes I was gettingpulled over just because of the
way that I looked or the type ofcar that I drove.
So all these stories that I washearing, which started with
(03:07):
Trayvon Martin.
Really resonated with me thiswas one of the first times that
I noticed, injustice.
It didn't seem right to me thatan unarmed.
American citizen walking homefrom the store or driving their
vehicle or just being at a park,could have a run in with law
(03:27):
enforcement or any other personfor that matter and looked at
like they were either less thanhuman, or with no type of value,
the aftermath is a lot of thesepeople who perpetuate some of
these injustices, for example,George Zimmerman got away with
(03:47):
it.
There was a court case.
He was arrested at some point.
He was brought in and he had atrial, I'm not complaining about
the trial process.
I think that's something that weall have a right to.
It's in our constitution.
It's a wonderful thing to beable to have your voice heard.
However, I was noticing that alot of these people were getting
off.
They were going into thecourtroom.
Had an attorney present andWe're getting away with
(04:09):
something we all witnessed.
Fast forward a couple of years,then it was Philando Castile.
Then it was Brianna Taylor.
Then it was, you know, MichaelBrown.
It was, all these differentpeople, Tamir Rice.
And then ultimately it got toGeorge Floyd.
When George Floyd happened, Thatwas like my final straw.
I was protesting, commenting onFacebook, getting into arguments
(04:35):
with people at Thanksgiving.
It was like I finally had enoughand so a mentor of mine sat me
down and said, you know What areyou doing with yourself now at
the time?
I was working at a doctor'soffice.
Doing a little bit ofconstruction work and I really
didn't know what I was doingwith my career My mentor sat me
down and said you're reallysmart and very passionate about,
(04:58):
fighting for, people that don'thave a voice or, standing up
against injustices.
You do a lot of ministry work inthe church.
Have you considered going to lawschool?
I said, no, why would I do that?
And he said, right now you'rejust, a Facebook champion.
You're complaining a lot and youhave some good ideas standing up
for people and saying that thisis wrong.
(05:18):
You know, we should do this.
But you're not really making anyprogress.
And you don't really have acareer yet.
So like?
Why don't you think about that?
I remember I was sitting down atthe dinner table with him and my
father And my dad was sittingdown with me and said if you go
to law school and begin thisfight against all these
(05:40):
injustices, representing peoplewho don't have a voice to be
able to you know stand in thegap against all sorts of
different types of systems thatare set up.
i'll help you you have myfinancial commitment.
So I said, Okay.
Let me take some time to thinkabout this because this is a big
decision.
That night I've never sharedthis part of the story with
anyone except for maybe my wife.
(06:00):
But that night I ended upwatching the movie Just Mercy by
Brian Stevenson.
Michael B.
Jordan.
was the main character.
He played Brian Stevenson, whowas an attorney.
It was about his life and how hehelped get someone off of death
row who was incarcerated for acrime they didn't commit.
They exhausted all of theirresources trying to figure out
(06:21):
how to get this guy off of deathrow in Alabama facing all sorts
of obstacles.
Specific the main one was racismIt's a racist court system that
was rigged against this man.
He was a black man.
Brian stevenson was a blackattorney I was watching that
movie and I had already read thebook but somehow the movie just
impacted me more I remember thatnight, getting down on my knees
(06:44):
and weeping, uncontrollably,because of everything that was
going on in the world around me,from Trayvon Martin to George
Floyd, I was thinking about allthe times that I was in similar
situations where my life couldhave ended, I was thinking about
all of the people who havestories of their run ins with
(07:06):
law enforcement or the courtsystem.
I'm not even talking about just,those situations, even going as
far as people who areundocumented immigrants.
We've all been in situationswhere we might have gotten an
eviction letter and we don'tknow where we're gonna go.
We might be homeless I thoughtabout all of my experiences and
I just wept and wept I got Downon my knees and I asked God if
(07:26):
this is where you want me to goIf you want me to take this
Avenue If you want me to listento my mentor if you want me to
stop going on Facebook tocomplain if you want me to move
forward go to law school andbecome an attorney and be a
voice then open the doors if youopen them, I'll run through
them.
I won't complain.
I won't stop.
I'll just go through as long asthose doors keep opening.
(07:48):
I remember going to sleep thatnight, exhausted, tired,
frustrated, but somewhatencouraged.
The next day I told my mentorand my dad, I need a little bit
of help studying for the LSATsbecause I'm gonna, do it.
I need some time off work.
I need, you know, a little bitof.
(08:09):
a little bit of money up frontto pay for the course.
And I'm going to do it.
And that was the beginning.
Miguel Sanchez (08:17):
if you are someone who's thinking about law
school, really think about your,why, why do I want to be a
lawyer?
We are going to get into thepreparation to go to law school,
which, Miguel already alluded.
It's cost money.
And so really be clear about whydo you want to be a lawyer?
And then once you get to lawschool, you'll have.
The space and time to thinkabout the different ways that
(08:38):
you can, get a job becausethat's what most people want
right after law school.
It makes sense, but really, yourtime in law school is going to
help you explore and figure outdifferent ways how you can
implement your why.
So going back to.
The law school preparation, youmentioned the LSAT.
And for those of you listening,the LSAT is a standardized test
(08:59):
that most law schools require.
Miguel, can you tell us moreabout that process?
How did you prepare for theLSAT?
What was some of the frustratingaspects of studying and taking
that exam
Miguel Lluesma (09:14):
Yeah.
When I took the LSAT, it wasaround 2020 during the pandemic,
which was a unique time.
I was working every day inperson at a doctor's office.
Considered essential.
I didn't have the opportunity tostay home and study all day.
worked nine to five, and when Igot home, I would, go online and
take, practice LSATs to seewhere I was at and what I would
(09:35):
need.
I had no idea what the examlooked like.
At the time it was readingcomprehension, logical
reasoning, and analyticalreasoning, which was the logic
games.
I've never done anything likethat before.
I did logic games in collegewhen I took a philosophy course.
I had no idea what the testlooked like, what we were being
asked.
it's an entrance exam into lawschool.
I thought I'd be asked Basicthings about.
(09:56):
the law, but it turns out that'snothing like the exam is not
that at all So I started to getfamiliarized with it by just
googling free LSAT exams And Iwould take them now I set myself
up for failure Because the examsI took, were a lot easier than
what I would be presented with,after taking a course in the
(10:19):
LSAT itself.
And I ended up scoring reallyhigh on the first one, and I
said, Oh, this is gonna be apiece of cake.
I don't even need to study.
I was wrong.
Thankfully, I had someone sit medown and say, you know, you
really need to take a course,you need to do this, try this
practice exam, use this website.
When I did that, my LSAT scorestarted, dropping down gradually
(10:42):
to, some more average scores andeventually some really low ones
that discouraged me.
But I went online, found acouple of different courses, and
I just found whichever one wasthe most affordable.
Now you had mentioned one of thebarriers, is pricing and,
getting finance for thesethings.
(11:02):
I think my LSAT course wassomewhere around 1, 500 to 2,
000.
I don't remember the exactnumber, but that's, pretty
pricey for someone who, Had justgotten laid off a few, you know,
like a year before, didn't haveany work.
Like I said, I was working atthe doctor's office, and wasn't,
making a lot of money.
It was during the pandemic, soeverything was slow.
(11:23):
You know, I don't know if peopleremember, but we were all
struggling.
We were so excited to just get afew, you know, 1000 bucks from
the government for thosestimulus checks.
That's how rough times were.
I didn't really have the moneyfor that.
But I remembered my dad saying,listen, if you do this, I'll
help.
I also remember getting down onmy knees and praying and asking
if you open the door, I'll runthrough it.
(11:44):
The first door was getting themoney to be able to pay for that
course and thankfully my fatherwas able to cover the full price
of it.
I was able to get the course itwas like three or four times a
week online during the pandemic.
I couldn't go in person.
They sent us the materialsthrough the mail, the first
class The instructor introducedhimself.
(12:07):
He explained each part and whatwe would be doing going forward.
Then we started doing practiceproblems the first one we did
was reading comprehension, whichI struggled with the most.
Then we did logical reasoningand so to break it down for all
the listeners, readingcomprehension was like a short
essay.
You had to read through it.
And then they would ask you,multiple choice questions after
(12:29):
the short essay, and they wouldAsk you a question that was
hidden inside the essay.
And it's something that you kindof had to think about.
Like it wasn't explicitly rightin front of you.
After practice you'd read a fewsentences and be able to find
exactly what they were asking.
Then you'd, answer the question.
Then there was logicalreasoning, which was like maybe
(12:50):
a.
Three to four sentence,question, and you had to give
the best answer.
This is something that I reallystruggled with, all throughout
law school because I'm used tothere being a right answer.
I know they changed the LSATformat so I don't know how it is
now, but at the time, there wasfour answers.
One of them was a bad answer,probably a wrong answer.
(13:10):
A third one was a misdirect.
It was like, Oh, this could bethe answer, but really they want
to, see you get to somethingelse.
And then there were two answersthat were really good, but one
of them was better than theother, but they both could have
been right, and you had to pick,the right answer, which was the
best answer.
so that was the LSAT experience.
It was long, it was hard, Thebest advice that I got before
(13:32):
the actual exam day was don'tworry.
You're never going to rememberyour LSAT score after you take
it and you get into law school.
Just take it, get in, and keeppushing forward.
So that's what I did.
I ended up, taking the LSAT.
I don't remember my exact score.
But, yeah, I scored somethinglike in an average area it
really was something that was inthe back of my mind after I took
(13:54):
it and I was just so excited toget A law school acceptance
letter that it was just I wasdone with it moved on but that
was the LSAT experience
Miguel Sanchez (14:02):
thank you for sharing and I'm glad you
described in detail because Oneof the things I notice with
first gen law students or firstgen prospective students is
their lack of knowledge.
This is not their fault.
The LSAT.
And I'm sure it's similar withother entrance exams for other
schools.
(14:22):
It's a big part of yourapplication.
So if you're considering lawschool, I'm going to leave some
links, on the show notes so youcan review, more about the LSAT
if that's something that you arelooking into.
But going from there, youattended Roger Williams Law
School in, Rhode Island.
How was the experience ofleaving New York to Rhode
(14:43):
Island?
Miguel Lluesma (14:44):
I love New York.
I'm a Yankee fan.
I love New York pizza.
I'm a typical New Yorker.
It was hard to leave New York.
My family is here.
I have my mom, my dad, mysister, my brother in law,
they're in North Jersey, NewYork area.
Our church is in New York.
It's where I've been my wholelife.
All my friends are there.
So it's difficult leaving to goto a new place.
(15:04):
And on top of that, I was newlymarried.
It was my wife's first timeleaving the state and we're
going to, a completely differentarea.
You know, Rhode Island is.
I'd never been there before inmy entire life.
It's a really small state.
You can get from one end to theother in an hour.
Take me an hour just to get toNew York city from where we live
so just to get, a picture of,how big and massive New York is
(15:26):
versus Rhode Island.
And then on top of that, we'respoiled in New York.
You know, I brought up pizza.
Our pizza really is amazing.
And you go to other states.
And it's just, not as good.
Also, everything closes reallyearly.
Especially where we lived.
We were in Barrington, RhodeIsland and everything closed at
like 8 or 9 o'clock.
So, if you were coming home, 9,30, 10 o'clock at night from
school, work, studying, maybe achurch event or something, You
(15:50):
were out of luck for dinner.
You just have to either, makesome ramen noodles at home and
be good with that or have a bowlof cereal.
And then just wait until thenext day for things to open up
again.
Whereas in New York, things areopen till midnight, one, two
o'clock in the morning,sometimes, especially in the
city.
So that was an adjustment.
It was also difficult to be thatfar away from so many support
systems.
One of the things that youreally need to rely on when you
(16:12):
are in law school is yourfriends, your family, your
religious community.
Those are really importantaspects, of life If you don't
have those it's hard because lawschool can feel lonely even when
you have people there it's atough experience, but rhode
island was beautiful.
I loved it.
The seafood was amazingEverybody was really nice.
Everywhere I went, I felt like,family.
(16:33):
We visited a church out there.
Everybody at law school waskind.
My wife found a job working witha family out there and they were
wonderful.
They all treated us like we wereone of them.
It was a really nice experiencein that aspect.
Miguel Sanchez (16:46):
Location is such a big part of education and
making sure that you are at theright place, especially if you
have a list of law schools it'sreally important to visit the
schools you're applying to.
Because you will be living therefor the next three or four
years.
As Miguel mentioned, at timesyou can feel lonely or not
(17:07):
really close to your supportsystem.
It can also be a goodexperience, a good maturing
experience.
sometimes you learn things thatyou normally wouldn't learn when
you're, at home, with yourcommunity.
But all in all, as you'redeciding to go to law school,
and as you're putting your listtogether.
Be sure to visit as many schoolsso that you can see the
(17:28):
community and see if it's theright fit So now you're at Roger
Williams is your first semesterin law school Did you ever feel
like I should not be doing this?
How and why am I here?
Miguel Lluesma (17:42):
law school in general is not easy.
It's very difficult and theymake it so on purpose because
you're trying to weed out peoplethat, are not serious about
being there.
And you really want people thatare gonna, focus.
You know, pass the bar exam andbecome an attorney a lot of
these people are going to becomeyour politicians.
When you see them on TV, winningtheir elections, they're going
(18:03):
to say, Oh, so and so went tothis law school.
So you're a representative ofthat law school well beyond your
time there.
It's very important for them tomake this process difficult.
When you're a first law student,it's just even more barriers.
It was difficult that firstsemester.
Every day I felt like I didn'tbelong.
Like I was in the wrong place.
(18:27):
I felt like they made a mistakepicking me.
Did I really do well enough onthe LSAT to get into here?
Do I really understand what'sgoing on?
I'm looking at the person nextto me thinking they must be
smarter than me.
This person's an overachiever.
This person's answering all thequestions, this person's getting
cold called and, not afraid.
I would just sit there wonderingto myself, I did have imposter
syndrome and the one thing thatreally helped me, was the dean
(18:52):
of the law school.
He was a really good guy.
Very down to earth, verypersonable, very friendly.
You never felt like he was uphere and we were down here.
And, on the first day on ourorientation, when we all got to
law school, He said somethingthat I would always have to tell
myself whenever I would havethose thoughts of being an
imposter.
(19:13):
He said, I want every one of youto know that you were
specifically chosen.
We carefully looked over eachand every application and we
chose you for a reason and youare supposed to be here.
And not only are you supposed tobe here, He says, we are all
(19:33):
here to do this together, andyou're supposed to be here, and
we want you here, and we'rehappy that you're here.
And when he said that, I feltlike a lot of weight lifted.
It was like, wow, somebody who'sthat important, a dean of a law
school who's also an attorney,is telling me that I'm their
colleague, that, I'm supposed tobe here, that they chose me,
(19:53):
that they carefully looked atthat application and, you know,
in that moment, I feltreassured.
Now again, the thoughts come inevery single day, but those
words kept coming back to meevery single day.
I would just recite them in myhead and think, okay, I got
this.
I can do it.
And I did.
Miguel Sanchez (20:10):
Typically, the 1L year, the first year in law
school is the hardest becauseyou're trying to figure it out
as you are in a brand newexperience.
And it helps to have peoplearound you helping you.
did.
you have any mentors?
I know you talked about a mentorwho.
(20:31):
instilled, the interest to go tolaw school or motivated you to
go to law school?
Did you have any mentors in lawschool that helped you navigate
the process?
Miguel Lluesma (20:43):
One bit of advice that I would give to
people, especially who are firstgen, or if you're just, you
know, even if you're not firstgen, if you're in law school and
you feel like you don't havesomeone, you know, in your
corner or whatever, find one.
There are a lot of people atRoger Williams that were willing
to be that for a lot ofdifferent students.
And there are two people, thatespecially helped me.
(21:03):
One of them was, one of myprofessors.
He taught me, evidence.
He taught a, racism anddiversity class.
Regarding the law, he and Iquickly connected.
I would ask him a lot ofquestions.
He would help me and theneventually, I'd be in his office
during office hours, gettingsome help on some assignments or
talking about some cases orwhatever current event might
have been going on at the time.
(21:23):
We.
Fast became friends and realizedwe had a lot in common.
He became a mentor for me andnot only a mentor, but a
personal friend.
The other professor was theprofessor that actually helped
me.
the most, as far as my careerpath.
Professor Warnberg, she was incharge of the New York Pro Bono
Scholars program, which I was apart of.
(21:45):
She's the one who told me aboutit, got me set up, told me what
I needed to do to accomplisheverything.
She taught one of the classes.
Helped me get my internship andwrote my recommendation letter.
Like she was unbelievablyhelpful.
The two of them prepared me themost for everything that would
happen in law school, and alsohelped me outside of law school.
(22:08):
If I had a question aboutsomething, they were the people
I would go to.
They'd give me an answer.
Even till this day, I haveevidence questions before trial,
and I'll reach out to myprofessor, Professor Freeman,
and say, Hey, I remember goingover this in class one time, I
just wanted your two cents.
I'll send him a quick email, andhe'll write me back within the
hour, or give me a call, and,we'll have a brief chat, catch
up.
(22:28):
I did have those two mentors.
On top of that, I had, Firstyear, I had some really good
teachers that understood thefrustrations, the fear, the
uncertainty, about being a firstyear law school, a law school
student, and they really cateredto us in a way that, didn't
hinder us.
They didn't baby us and hold ourhand all the way through, but
(22:50):
they encouraged us, they werehard on us when they needed to
be, but also very helpful inlaying out the groundwork for
what year one would look likebecause it was a stressful year.
It wasn't easy.
Miguel Sanchez (23:01):
When I meet prospective students, many of
them often ask, what is thefastest way I can get out of law
school?
How fast can I get my degree?
And I typically point that youhave to develop relationships
while you're in law school,build your network.
Doing law school fast track isnot generally the best way to do
(23:23):
it because you will missBuilding those relationships
that are going to be helpfuleven after law school, like in
your example, you still reachout to this professor when you
have evidence questions.
How was that transition for youfrom law school to a career that
you're in now?
And if you can tell us aboutwhat you do.
Miguel Lluesma (23:43):
I started doing the New York pro bono scholars
program at the Bronx Defender'soffice.
For those who don't know, thepro bono scholar program is
unique to New York, for yourfinal semester of law school,
you finish early.
It's still three years, but youget all of your coursework done
in two and a half.
She helped me figure out how toget my coursework done in the
two and a half years.
And then for my final semester,with the New York pro bono
(24:05):
scholars program, you offer probono services.
So you're not getting paid.
It's more of an extern ship.
And you go to like a non profitorganization, or a public
defender's office, or a DA'soffice, and you work under a
supervising attorney,practicing.
They sign off, on all of yourwork, but you're getting
experience of what it actuallyis like to be an attorney, in an
(24:25):
actual office, and you get tostart helping people right off
the bat.
So for any other social justicewarriors that are listening, if
you really want to get to workquick, and you want to help
people do the new pro bonoscholars program there are a lot
of people that are in need ofit.
And there are a lot oforganizations and, like public
defender's offices, DA's officesthat participate.
The return for you as a studentis that you get to take the bar
(24:49):
exam early.
Now it's difficult because it'sthe bar exam.
It's way harder than the LSATever was.
It's definitely the hardest examthat I've ever taken.
And to take it early beforeyou're done, is not an easy
thing to do.
(25:09):
If you really want to do the NewYork Pro Bono Scholars Program,
you want to get out of lawschool fast, you want to take
the bar exam, I recommend doingit, but you still need to be
patient.
You still need to be diligent,and really take, that time
seriously because you don't havethe same amount of studying time
that your colleagues do in lawschool where they finish, in the
spring semester and then havethose few months in the
(25:31):
summertime to study for the Julybar exam.
So you're actually taking it inFebruary.
Then once you're done, you startworking at the, office you're
doing pro bono for.
When you complete that work, yougraduate.
So you actually graduate maybe aweek or two after your
colleagues in law school, buthopefully you'll have passed the
bar exam, before that.
(25:51):
So you'll actually be.
Ready to get admitted beforeeverybody else.
And it gives you a head start onthe application process.
Because one thing that's veryattractive to law firms and
other offices is if you arealready done with the bar exam,
they don't have to worry aboutyou studying and failing the bar
exam.
They don't have to invest thattime.
(26:12):
They can say, Oh, no, youalready passed.
Great.
So you're very marketable.
I thought that was very helpfulfor me because I was a first
generation law student.
I didn't have other lawyersthat, had jobs waiting for me.
I had a harder time findinginternships in year two than
some of my other classmatesbecause they had either a family
member or a family friend thatwas already an attorney to hire
(26:33):
them for the summer.
So I didn't have any of thoseavenues.
The pro bono scholars programwas my ticket into an
internship.
Unfortunately, at the time, theBronx Defender's Office was
going through a strike, so theyweren't sure if I'd be able to
stay on, it was a tough timebecause I wanted to stay there,
I really enjoyed the job, but Iwasn't able to get an interview
afterwards.
(26:55):
So I called my professor, mymentor.
We talked about what avenues Imight have, where I could work,
what this would look like.
She helped me put together myresume.
At the end of that, I sent out acouple of different applications
to a couple of differentoffices.
The job offer that I acceptedwas the Center for Safety and
Change in Rockland County, wherewe help women, children, and
(27:15):
some men, with getting orders ofprotection when they're
survivors of domestic violence.
We help undocumented immigrantsfind pathways to citizenship,
especially when they're victimsof crimes.
We help with custody orders,visitation, divorce, different
types of family law, andimmigration law.
It's great.
Work to help people that don'thave voices.
(27:36):
I'm passionate about socialjustice.
Two very large groups that areoften oppressed are immigrants
and women.
Especially women of color.
So to be able to have those twodemographics, to be able to
represent those twodemographics, is exactly what I
would want to have done out oflaw school.
So to be able to be presentedwith that opportunity right
(27:57):
away, was awesome.
Miguel Sanchez (28:01):
in your experience at the, Bronx
Defenders and, now at the Centerfor Safety and Change what has
been the most challenging aspectof doing social justice work.
Miguel Lluesma (28:11):
The most challenging aspect, I would say,
is I'm trying.
I don't want to get too deepinto the legalities of the
systemic oppression that we seegoing on.
But basically, the legal systemsthat are set up.
There are a lot of barriers thatexist, especially for people of
color.
For immigrants, it's not easy.
(28:33):
And just a plain example is evenhaving access to an attorney.
Attorneys are expensive, So it'sreally not easy to get an
attorney.
And everyone, when you go into acourtroom, desperately needs an
attorney.
Thankfully, there are some waysthat people, can, Get an
attorney that, you know, there'spro bono work that's provided
Also in Rockland County, we havesomething called an 18 B panel
(28:56):
where attorneys that, are paidfor by the county and they
represent people who, are undera certain income level that
wouldn't be able to afford anattorney otherwise.
I would say that that's probablyone of the biggest barriers just
to be able to get properrepresentation.
There are a lot of people who goto court that have a lot of
money.
(29:16):
They can afford to get, youknow, the top, top attorney in
New York City to represent them.
And they get everything thatthey want in the courtroom.
And then there are those whohave absolutely nothing.
They come to this country with,very minimal things.
There are people who have been,working two jobs, nine to five,
and then six to midnight withfive kids and trying their best
(29:38):
to survive in this world.
They don't have time to findsomeone to represent them in
whatever case they might begoing on in.
That's one huge barrier, onehuge challenge that I see, which
is why I wanted to do the probono work, why I wanted to work
at a not for profit, because Iwanted to be able to help people
who, can't afford to get helpand really need good attorneys.
(29:59):
Thankfully there are a lot ofgood attorneys out there who do
this kind of work.
One of the other biggestchallenges, at least for me
personally, and from mytransition from the Bronx
defenders to the center forsafety and change was being on
one side of the law and then theother.
So at the public defender'soffice, I was representing
people that were allegedlyaccused of certain types of
(30:20):
crimes.
I was defending them trying tofigure out ways for them to
face, minimal jail time, to,make sure that, justice was fair
for them.
I believe that, if someonecommits a crime, you know, there
should be a punishment, but thenwe have to have a conversation
about what a fair punishment is.
So that was one of the reasonswhy I wanted to be at the Bronx
Defender's Office.
Then transitioning to The Centerfor Safety and Change where
(30:43):
you're on the other side of theaisle.
Now, you're usually doing,orders of protection for people
that are victims of crimes.
So the people that I wasdefending now I'm going up,
against.
That was a challenge for me.
I still have a heart for both.
There are a lot of people whothink that, if you commit a
crime or if you're guilty ofsomething you don't deserve
(31:04):
representation and you shouldjust go straight to jail and,
throw away the key.
That's not the way ourconstitution was set up.
That's not justice.
That's not fair.
So I have a heart.
for working at public defender'soffice, but at the same time, I
also have a heart for workingfor people that are victims of
domestic violence and sexualassault and many other types of
crimes.
You want them to be heard.
You want them to get justice aswell.
(31:26):
Finding that balance is achallenge in and of itself.
Miguel Sanchez (31:29):
I want to go back to the bar exam And this
will be our last section oftoday's episode.
Preparing for the LSAT bringsits challenges as you discussed.
going to law school has its setof challenges.
How was it like studying andtaking the bar exam
Miguel Lluesma (31:53):
I'm gonna need therapy after this session
because bringing up a traumaticexperience.
I say that lightly, but alsosomewhat serious.
It was horrible.
When I say it was horrible.
And a traumatic experience.
I don't want to scare peopleaway.
And I don't want people to thinkthat it's impossible.
Because it's not at the end ofthe day, there are thousands of
attorneys in this country.
(32:14):
While it is, a profession that,really tries to keep it small,
there are a lot of people thatpass the bar exam It's not
impossible.
You can do it for me It was verydifficult.
It was also a very difficulttime.
There were a couple of thingsthat happened in my personal
life, there were some trialsthat were going on.
And then on top of that, I'mstudying for the bar exam.
(32:35):
You're studying day and night,seven days a week, nonstop.
You are in this period ofloneliness.
There are very few people thatcan understand.
what you're going through whenyou're taking the bar exam.
It's also difficult if you'remarried or have children or have
someone that depends on you ormaybe you depend on that person.
(32:58):
It is very difficult on them aswell.
There were times where, I tookthe bar exam in February, which
means I was studying duringChristmas, Christmas Eve, New
Year's Eve, New Year's.
I had to step away and say, hey,thanks for dinner.
But I have to go study for thenext two or three hours.
It is not easy.
It's not easy for them too,because you're not there.
If you have small children,little Johnny has a basketball
(33:19):
game, but you have to study forthe bar exam.
I had, one professor tell us astory about how her sister
scheduled her wedding The daybefore the bar exam, and she was
supposed to be the maid ofhonor, and she told her sister.
I can't go.
Now, the person that told usthat said, you don't have to
(33:40):
make the same sacrifices if youhave to go to a wedding, go to a
wedding.
If you have to celebrateChristmas, celebrate Christmas,
but make sure you supplementthat time, with more studying
time in one of those other days.
This professor that told us thatstory said that for her, she
needed to study that day.
Otherwise she wouldn't havepassed.
You have to be mindful of yourschedule.
You have to be mindful of what'sgoing on at that time of life.
(34:02):
You're going to be missingthings.
But it is worth it.
And like I said, it's notimpossible.
The exam day was terrible.
I got a parking ticket outsideof, the armory in New York City
because I parked in front of afire hydrant.
I thought I failed and mostpeople that took that exam
thought they failed.
When all of the law studentswere walking into the building
to take the exam, we were allnervous, but kind of excited
(34:26):
talking.
At lunchtime, we were chatting abit.
By the time we left that exam,the final day, there was nothing
but Silence.
I've never heard anywhere in NewYork City as quiet as the final
hour of that bar exam.
The mood was different.
Everybody was just like, whatthe heck just happened?
It feels like you got hit by atruck.
(34:48):
I think I slept for 16 hoursstraight the next day.
I went to bed and didn't wakeup.
I got 8 hours of sleep, woke upfor maybe 30 minutes, had
something to eat, went rightback to sleep for another 8
hours.
It was such a mentally,physically, and I would even say
emotionally and spirituallydraining.
When I found out that I passedthe bar exam, I was overcome
(35:11):
with joy.
So much pressure was lifted.
I did cry because I was like,This is crazy.
I thought I failed.
I ended up passing.
But it was extremelyencouraging, to say I passed the
bar exam.
This is a big deal, especiallyfor someone like me, who never
did that well in school.
To have this accomplishment washuge and to be able to share it
(35:32):
with friends, family, people inthe church I knew were praying
for me, was really awesome.
It was even more, joyful for meto be able to know.
All right, that's out of the wayNow it's time to get to real
work.
I'm excited to be here.
I'm thankful for all of theopportunities that god continues
to give me Like I said at thebeginning of the podcast I told
(35:55):
him to open the doors and Iwould run through them And he's
still opening the doors and i'mstill running through each and
every day I wouldn't have beenable to do this without the
support of my community myfamily I'm a first generation
law student, so I didn't havesome of the resources that
others had, to have, like Isaid, my church community, my
wife, my parents, my friends,was crucial.
(36:17):
So if you're a first generationlaw student listening, today,
find that support system, tap ineach and every day.
Don't be afraid to ask for help.
Don't be afraid to go up to yourlaw professor and ask them for
help.
They want to help you.
They'll seem scary on day one.
But that's not really them.
law professors are human beingswho had to go through a first
(36:37):
year of law school, had to takethe LSAT, had to take the bar
exam, had to get admitted andthen had to go to that first job
interview.
So, be encouraged, and just,Open those doors and keep
running through them.
Miguel Sanchez (36:51):
I Don't think there's any, better way to end,
Thank you for sharing yourexperience as a first gen law
student.
Miguel just gave us so many tipsand so much advice that is
worth, re watching or sharingwith anyone else who is thinking
about law school.
That being said, thank you,Miguel.
Miguel Lluesma (37:09):
Thanks for having me.
Miguel Sanchez (37:10):
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoy the episode.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Don't forget to leave a review.
Until next time.
Welcome to First Gen 101, the podcast where
first generation graduates sharetheir stories and career tips.
I am your host, Miguel Sanchez.
In this episode, Miguel Lluesmashares his inspiring path to
becoming an attorney.
From the pivotal moments thatsparked his passion for law to
the challenges of law school,Miguel's story one of resilience
(00:33):
and purpose.
If you're considering a careerin law, this episode is a must
listen.
Welcome to another episode ofFirst Gen 101.
we have Miguel Lluesma.
thank you for joining me today.
Miguel Lluesma (00:49):
Thank you for having me.
Miguel Sanchez (00:51):
Known each other for several years now,
attend the same church, and Iremember when you left off to
law school.
I remember how exciting that daywas for the church the church
hosted a farewell, during thetime I remember how excited you
were So let's start with that.
(01:11):
Why did you decide to become alawyer?
Miguel Lluesma (01:14):
Yeah, I'll go all the way back when I was a
kid.
I was always very argumentative.
And adults would always jokearound and tell me, you should
be a lawyer?
someday.
And I would laugh it off becauseI never thought I would go to
law school and go through thatprocess.
I thought was too difficult andthat someone like me wouldn't be
able to do it.
But over the years, there werecertain things happening around
(01:37):
me, that kind of started puttinga fire inside of me.
And, just the first Time thishappened would be, when I was in
college, when Trayvon Martin waskilled by George Zimmerman, I
remember being, either afreshman or a sophomore.
I can't remember exactly aroundthe time, but, I remember
feeling really impacted by whathappened then.
(01:58):
And for those who might not knowthe story, that was, a young,
Black man who was, walking homefrom the store.
During All Star Weekend forbasketball, sometime in
February.
A self proclaimed neighborhoodwatch guy, George Zimmerman,
followed him.
There was an altercation, andeventually Trayvon Martin was
shot and killed, it sparked ahuge outrage in the country
(02:21):
over, you know, violence, theway that we treat Black people
in this country.
And then also, since he was selfproclaimed Neighborhood Watch,
there was also some aspect oflaw enforcement in there.
And then, in the months thatfollowed, there were other,
incidents with law enforcementand unarmed Black men.
I remember watching that, andfeeling like, man, this isn't
(02:44):
right.
Something's off.
Something's wrong.
I also felt somewhat, personalbecause I'm brown.
And I've had my run ins with lawenforcement.
Sometimes I was guilty.
Sometimes I wasn't.
Sometimes I was getting pulledover for running a stop sign.
And sometimes I was gettingpulled over just because of the
way that I looked or the type ofcar that I drove.
So all these stories that I washearing, which started with
(03:07):
Trayvon Martin.
Really resonated with me thiswas one of the first times that
I noticed, injustice.
It didn't seem right to me thatan unarmed.
American citizen walking homefrom the store or driving their
vehicle or just being at a park,could have a run in with law
(03:27):
enforcement or any other personfor that matter and looked at
like they were either less thanhuman, or with no type of value,
the aftermath is a lot of thesepeople who perpetuate some of
these injustices, for example,George Zimmerman got away with
(03:47):
it.
There was a court case.
He was arrested at some point.
He was brought in and he had atrial, I'm not complaining about
the trial process.
I think that's something that weall have a right to.
It's in our constitution.
It's a wonderful thing to beable to have your voice heard.
However, I was noticing that alot of these people were getting
off.
They were going into thecourtroom.
Had an attorney present andWe're getting away with
(04:09):
something we all witnessed.
Fast forward a couple of years,then it was Philando Castile.
Then it was Brianna Taylor.
Then it was, you know, MichaelBrown.
It was, all these differentpeople, Tamir Rice.
And then ultimately it got toGeorge Floyd.
When George Floyd happened, Thatwas like my final straw.
I was protesting, commenting onFacebook, getting into arguments
(04:35):
with people at Thanksgiving.
It was like I finally had enoughand so a mentor of mine sat me
down and said, you know What areyou doing with yourself now at
the time?
I was working at a doctor'soffice.
Doing a little bit ofconstruction work and I really
didn't know what I was doingwith my career My mentor sat me
down and said you're reallysmart and very passionate about,
(04:58):
fighting for, people that don'thave a voice or, standing up
against injustices.
You do a lot of ministry work inthe church.
Have you considered going to lawschool?
I said, no, why would I do that?
And he said, right now you'rejust, a Facebook champion.
You're complaining a lot and youhave some good ideas standing up
for people and saying that thisis wrong.
(05:18):
You know, we should do this.
But you're not really making anyprogress.
And you don't really have acareer yet.
So like?
Why don't you think about that?
I remember I was sitting down atthe dinner table with him and my
father And my dad was sittingdown with me and said if you go
to law school and begin thisfight against all these
(05:40):
injustices, representing peoplewho don't have a voice to be
able to you know stand in thegap against all sorts of
different types of systems thatare set up.
i'll help you you have myfinancial commitment.
So I said, Okay.
Let me take some time to thinkabout this because this is a big
decision.
That night I've never sharedthis part of the story with
anyone except for maybe my wife.
(06:00):
But that night I ended upwatching the movie Just Mercy by
Brian Stevenson.
Michael B.
Jordan.
was the main character.
He played Brian Stevenson, whowas an attorney.
It was about his life and how hehelped get someone off of death
row who was incarcerated for acrime they didn't commit.
They exhausted all of theirresources trying to figure out
(06:21):
how to get this guy off of deathrow in Alabama facing all sorts
of obstacles.
Specific the main one was racismIt's a racist court system that
was rigged against this man.
He was a black man.
Brian stevenson was a blackattorney I was watching that
movie and I had already read thebook but somehow the movie just
impacted me more I remember thatnight, getting down on my knees
(06:44):
and weeping, uncontrollably,because of everything that was
going on in the world around me,from Trayvon Martin to George
Floyd, I was thinking about allthe times that I was in similar
situations where my life couldhave ended, I was thinking about
all of the people who havestories of their run ins with
(07:06):
law enforcement or the courtsystem.
I'm not even talking about just,those situations, even going as
far as people who areundocumented immigrants.
We've all been in situationswhere we might have gotten an
eviction letter and we don'tknow where we're gonna go.
We might be homeless I thoughtabout all of my experiences and
I just wept and wept I got Downon my knees and I asked God if
(07:26):
this is where you want me to goIf you want me to take this
Avenue If you want me to listento my mentor if you want me to
stop going on Facebook tocomplain if you want me to move
forward go to law school andbecome an attorney and be a
voice then open the doors if youopen them, I'll run through
them.
I won't complain.
I won't stop.
I'll just go through as long asthose doors keep opening.
(07:48):
I remember going to sleep thatnight, exhausted, tired,
frustrated, but somewhatencouraged.
The next day I told my mentorand my dad, I need a little bit
of help studying for the LSATsbecause I'm gonna, do it.
I need some time off work.
I need, you know, a little bitof.
(08:09):
a little bit of money up frontto pay for the course.
And I'm going to do it.
And that was the beginning.
Miguel Sanchez (08:17):
if you are someone who's thinking about law
school, really think about your,why, why do I want to be a
lawyer?
We are going to get into thepreparation to go to law school,
which, Miguel already alluded.
It's cost money.
And so really be clear about whydo you want to be a lawyer?
And then once you get to lawschool, you'll have.
The space and time to thinkabout the different ways that
(08:38):
you can, get a job becausethat's what most people want
right after law school.
It makes sense, but really, yourtime in law school is going to
help you explore and figure outdifferent ways how you can
implement your why.
So going back to.
The law school preparation, youmentioned the LSAT.
And for those of you listening,the LSAT is a standardized test
(08:59):
that most law schools require.
Miguel, can you tell us moreabout that process?
How did you prepare for theLSAT?
What was some of the frustratingaspects of studying and taking
that exam
Miguel Lluesma (09:14):
Yeah.
When I took the LSAT, it wasaround 2020 during the pandemic,
which was a unique time.
I was working every day inperson at a doctor's office.
Considered essential.
I didn't have the opportunity tostay home and study all day.
worked nine to five, and when Igot home, I would, go online and
take, practice LSATs to seewhere I was at and what I would
(09:35):
need.
I had no idea what the examlooked like.
At the time it was readingcomprehension, logical
reasoning, and analyticalreasoning, which was the logic
games.
I've never done anything likethat before.
I did logic games in collegewhen I took a philosophy course.
I had no idea what the testlooked like, what we were being
asked.
it's an entrance exam into lawschool.
I thought I'd be asked Basicthings about.
(09:56):
the law, but it turns out that'snothing like the exam is not
that at all So I started to getfamiliarized with it by just
googling free LSAT exams And Iwould take them now I set myself
up for failure Because the examsI took, were a lot easier than
what I would be presented with,after taking a course in the
(10:19):
LSAT itself.
And I ended up scoring reallyhigh on the first one, and I
said, Oh, this is gonna be apiece of cake.
I don't even need to study.
I was wrong.
Thankfully, I had someone sit medown and say, you know, you
really need to take a course,you need to do this, try this
practice exam, use this website.
When I did that, my LSAT scorestarted, dropping down gradually
(10:42):
to, some more average scores andeventually some really low ones
that discouraged me.
But I went online, found acouple of different courses, and
I just found whichever one wasthe most affordable.
Now you had mentioned one of thebarriers, is pricing and,
getting finance for thesethings.
(11:02):
I think my LSAT course wassomewhere around 1, 500 to 2,
000.
I don't remember the exactnumber, but that's, pretty
pricey for someone who, Had justgotten laid off a few, you know,
like a year before, didn't haveany work.
Like I said, I was working atthe doctor's office, and wasn't,
making a lot of money.
It was during the pandemic, soeverything was slow.
(11:23):
You know, I don't know if peopleremember, but we were all
struggling.
We were so excited to just get afew, you know, 1000 bucks from
the government for thosestimulus checks.
That's how rough times were.
I didn't really have the moneyfor that.
But I remembered my dad saying,listen, if you do this, I'll
help.
I also remember getting down onmy knees and praying and asking
if you open the door, I'll runthrough it.
(11:44):
The first door was getting themoney to be able to pay for that
course and thankfully my fatherwas able to cover the full price
of it.
I was able to get the course itwas like three or four times a
week online during the pandemic.
I couldn't go in person.
They sent us the materialsthrough the mail, the first
class The instructor introducedhimself.
(12:07):
He explained each part and whatwe would be doing going forward.
Then we started doing practiceproblems the first one we did
was reading comprehension, whichI struggled with the most.
Then we did logical reasoningand so to break it down for all
the listeners, readingcomprehension was like a short
essay.
You had to read through it.
And then they would ask you,multiple choice questions after
(12:29):
the short essay, and they wouldAsk you a question that was
hidden inside the essay.
And it's something that you kindof had to think about.
Like it wasn't explicitly rightin front of you.
After practice you'd read a fewsentences and be able to find
exactly what they were asking.
Then you'd, answer the question.
Then there was logicalreasoning, which was like maybe
(12:50):
a.
Three to four sentence,question, and you had to give
the best answer.
This is something that I reallystruggled with, all throughout
law school because I'm used tothere being a right answer.
I know they changed the LSATformat so I don't know how it is
now, but at the time, there wasfour answers.
One of them was a bad answer,probably a wrong answer.
(13:10):
A third one was a misdirect.
It was like, Oh, this could bethe answer, but really they want
to, see you get to somethingelse.
And then there were two answersthat were really good, but one
of them was better than theother, but they both could have
been right, and you had to pick,the right answer, which was the
best answer.
so that was the LSAT experience.
It was long, it was hard, Thebest advice that I got before
(13:32):
the actual exam day was don'tworry.
You're never going to rememberyour LSAT score after you take
it and you get into law school.
Just take it, get in, and keeppushing forward.
So that's what I did.
I ended up, taking the LSAT.
I don't remember my exact score.
But, yeah, I scored somethinglike in an average area it
really was something that was inthe back of my mind after I took
(13:54):
it and I was just so excited toget A law school acceptance
letter that it was just I wasdone with it moved on but that
was the LSAT experience
Miguel Sanchez (14:02):
thank you for sharing and I'm glad you
described in detail because Oneof the things I notice with
first gen law students or firstgen prospective students is
their lack of knowledge.
This is not their fault.
The LSAT.
And I'm sure it's similar withother entrance exams for other
schools.
(14:22):
It's a big part of yourapplication.
So if you're considering lawschool, I'm going to leave some
links, on the show notes so youcan review, more about the LSAT
if that's something that you arelooking into.
But going from there, youattended Roger Williams Law
School in, Rhode Island.
How was the experience ofleaving New York to Rhode
(14:43):
Island?
Miguel Lluesma (14:44):
I love New York.
I'm a Yankee fan.
I love New York pizza.
I'm a typical New Yorker.
It was hard to leave New York.
My family is here.
I have my mom, my dad, mysister, my brother in law,
they're in North Jersey, NewYork area.
Our church is in New York.
It's where I've been my wholelife.
All my friends are there.
So it's difficult leaving to goto a new place.
(15:04):
And on top of that, I was newlymarried.
It was my wife's first timeleaving the state and we're
going to, a completely differentarea.
You know, Rhode Island is.
I'd never been there before inmy entire life.
It's a really small state.
You can get from one end to theother in an hour.
Take me an hour just to get toNew York city from where we live
so just to get, a picture of,how big and massive New York is
(15:26):
versus Rhode Island.
And then on top of that, we'respoiled in New York.
You know, I brought up pizza.
Our pizza really is amazing.
And you go to other states.
And it's just, not as good.
Also, everything closes reallyearly.
Especially where we lived.
We were in Barrington, RhodeIsland and everything closed at
like 8 or 9 o'clock.
So, if you were coming home, 9,30, 10 o'clock at night from
school, work, studying, maybe achurch event or something, You
(15:50):
were out of luck for dinner.
You just have to either, makesome ramen noodles at home and
be good with that or have a bowlof cereal.
And then just wait until thenext day for things to open up
again.
Whereas in New York, things areopen till midnight, one, two
o'clock in the morning,sometimes, especially in the
city.
So that was an adjustment.
It was also difficult to be thatfar away from so many support
systems.
One of the things that youreally need to rely on when you
(16:12):
are in law school is yourfriends, your family, your
religious community.
Those are really importantaspects, of life If you don't
have those it's hard because lawschool can feel lonely even when
you have people there it's atough experience, but rhode
island was beautiful.
I loved it.
The seafood was amazingEverybody was really nice.
Everywhere I went, I felt like,family.
(16:33):
We visited a church out there.
Everybody at law school waskind.
My wife found a job working witha family out there and they were
wonderful.
They all treated us like we wereone of them.
It was a really nice experiencein that aspect.
Miguel Sanchez (16:46):
Location is such a big part of education and
making sure that you are at theright place, especially if you
have a list of law schools it'sreally important to visit the
schools you're applying to.
Because you will be living therefor the next three or four
years.
As Miguel mentioned, at timesyou can feel lonely or not
(17:07):
really close to your supportsystem.
It can also be a goodexperience, a good maturing
experience.
sometimes you learn things thatyou normally wouldn't learn when
you're, at home, with yourcommunity.
But all in all, as you'redeciding to go to law school,
and as you're putting your listtogether.
Be sure to visit as many schoolsso that you can see the
(17:28):
community and see if it's theright fit So now you're at Roger
Williams is your first semesterin law school Did you ever feel
like I should not be doing this?
How and why am I here?
Miguel Lluesma (17:42):
law school in general is not easy.
It's very difficult and theymake it so on purpose because
you're trying to weed out peoplethat, are not serious about
being there.
And you really want people thatare gonna, focus.
You know, pass the bar exam andbecome an attorney a lot of
these people are going to becomeyour politicians.
When you see them on TV, winningtheir elections, they're going
(18:03):
to say, Oh, so and so went tothis law school.
So you're a representative ofthat law school well beyond your
time there.
It's very important for them tomake this process difficult.
When you're a first law student,it's just even more barriers.
It was difficult that firstsemester.
Every day I felt like I didn'tbelong.
Like I was in the wrong place.
(18:27):
I felt like they made a mistakepicking me.
Did I really do well enough onthe LSAT to get into here?
Do I really understand what'sgoing on?
I'm looking at the person nextto me thinking they must be
smarter than me.
This person's an overachiever.
This person's answering all thequestions, this person's getting
cold called and, not afraid.
I would just sit there wonderingto myself, I did have imposter
syndrome and the one thing thatreally helped me, was the dean
(18:52):
of the law school.
He was a really good guy.
Very down to earth, verypersonable, very friendly.
You never felt like he was uphere and we were down here.
And, on the first day on ourorientation, when we all got to
law school, He said somethingthat I would always have to tell
myself whenever I would havethose thoughts of being an
imposter.
(19:13):
He said, I want every one of youto know that you were
specifically chosen.
We carefully looked over eachand every application and we
chose you for a reason and youare supposed to be here.
And not only are you supposed tobe here, He says, we are all
(19:33):
here to do this together, andyou're supposed to be here, and
we want you here, and we'rehappy that you're here.
And when he said that, I feltlike a lot of weight lifted.
It was like, wow, somebody who'sthat important, a dean of a law
school who's also an attorney,is telling me that I'm their
colleague, that, I'm supposed tobe here, that they chose me,
(19:53):
that they carefully looked atthat application and, you know,
in that moment, I feltreassured.
Now again, the thoughts come inevery single day, but those
words kept coming back to meevery single day.
I would just recite them in myhead and think, okay, I got
this.
I can do it.
And I did.
Miguel Sanchez (20:10):
Typically, the 1L year, the first year in law
school is the hardest becauseyou're trying to figure it out
as you are in a brand newexperience.
And it helps to have peoplearound you helping you.
did.
you have any mentors?
I know you talked about a mentorwho.
(20:31):
instilled, the interest to go tolaw school or motivated you to
go to law school?
Did you have any mentors in lawschool that helped you navigate
the process?
Miguel Lluesma (20:43):
One bit of advice that I would give to
people, especially who are firstgen, or if you're just, you
know, even if you're not firstgen, if you're in law school and
you feel like you don't havesomeone, you know, in your
corner or whatever, find one.
There are a lot of people atRoger Williams that were willing
to be that for a lot ofdifferent students.
And there are two people, thatespecially helped me.
(21:03):
One of them was, one of myprofessors.
He taught me, evidence.
He taught a, racism anddiversity class.
Regarding the law, he and Iquickly connected.
I would ask him a lot ofquestions.
He would help me and theneventually, I'd be in his office
during office hours, gettingsome help on some assignments or
talking about some cases orwhatever current event might
have been going on at the time.
(21:23):
We.
Fast became friends and realizedwe had a lot in common.
He became a mentor for me andnot only a mentor, but a
personal friend.
The other professor was theprofessor that actually helped
me.
the most, as far as my careerpath.
Professor Warnberg, she was incharge of the New York Pro Bono
Scholars program, which I was apart of.
(21:45):
She's the one who told me aboutit, got me set up, told me what
I needed to do to accomplisheverything.
She taught one of the classes.
Helped me get my internship andwrote my recommendation letter.
Like she was unbelievablyhelpful.
The two of them prepared me themost for everything that would
happen in law school, and alsohelped me outside of law school.
(22:08):
If I had a question aboutsomething, they were the people
I would go to.
They'd give me an answer.
Even till this day, I haveevidence questions before trial,
and I'll reach out to myprofessor, Professor Freeman,
and say, Hey, I remember goingover this in class one time, I
just wanted your two cents.
I'll send him a quick email, andhe'll write me back within the
hour, or give me a call, and,we'll have a brief chat, catch
up.
(22:28):
I did have those two mentors.
On top of that, I had, Firstyear, I had some really good
teachers that understood thefrustrations, the fear, the
uncertainty, about being a firstyear law school, a law school
student, and they really cateredto us in a way that, didn't
hinder us.
They didn't baby us and hold ourhand all the way through, but
(22:50):
they encouraged us, they werehard on us when they needed to
be, but also very helpful inlaying out the groundwork for
what year one would look likebecause it was a stressful year.
It wasn't easy.
Miguel Sanchez (23:01):
When I meet prospective students, many of
them often ask, what is thefastest way I can get out of law
school?
How fast can I get my degree?
And I typically point that youhave to develop relationships
while you're in law school,build your network.
Doing law school fast track isnot generally the best way to do
(23:23):
it because you will missBuilding those relationships
that are going to be helpfuleven after law school, like in
your example, you still reachout to this professor when you
have evidence questions.
How was that transition for youfrom law school to a career that
you're in now?
And if you can tell us aboutwhat you do.
Miguel Lluesma (23:43):
I started doing the New York pro bono scholars
program at the Bronx Defender'soffice.
For those who don't know, thepro bono scholar program is
unique to New York, for yourfinal semester of law school,
you finish early.
It's still three years, but youget all of your coursework done
in two and a half.
She helped me figure out how toget my coursework done in the
two and a half years.
And then for my final semester,with the New York pro bono
(24:05):
scholars program, you offer probono services.
So you're not getting paid.
It's more of an extern ship.
And you go to like a non profitorganization, or a public
defender's office, or a DA'soffice, and you work under a
supervising attorney,practicing.
They sign off, on all of yourwork, but you're getting
experience of what it actuallyis like to be an attorney, in an
(24:25):
actual office, and you get tostart helping people right off
the bat.
So for any other social justicewarriors that are listening, if
you really want to get to workquick, and you want to help
people do the new pro bonoscholars program there are a lot
of people that are in need ofit.
And there are a lot oforganizations and, like public
defender's offices, DA's officesthat participate.
The return for you as a studentis that you get to take the bar
(24:49):
exam early.
Now it's difficult because it'sthe bar exam.
It's way harder than the LSATever was.
It's definitely the hardest examthat I've ever taken.
And to take it early beforeyou're done, is not an easy
thing to do.
(25:09):
If you really want to do the NewYork Pro Bono Scholars Program,
you want to get out of lawschool fast, you want to take
the bar exam, I recommend doingit, but you still need to be
patient.
You still need to be diligent,and really take, that time
seriously because you don't havethe same amount of studying time
that your colleagues do in lawschool where they finish, in the
spring semester and then havethose few months in the
(25:31):
summertime to study for the Julybar exam.
So you're actually taking it inFebruary.
Then once you're done, you startworking at the, office you're
doing pro bono for.
When you complete that work, yougraduate.
So you actually graduate maybe aweek or two after your
colleagues in law school, buthopefully you'll have passed the
bar exam, before that.
(25:51):
So you'll actually be.
Ready to get admitted beforeeverybody else.
And it gives you a head start onthe application process.
Because one thing that's veryattractive to law firms and
other offices is if you arealready done with the bar exam,
they don't have to worry aboutyou studying and failing the bar
exam.
They don't have to invest thattime.
(26:12):
They can say, Oh, no, youalready passed.
Great.
So you're very marketable.
I thought that was very helpfulfor me because I was a first
generation law student.
I didn't have other lawyersthat, had jobs waiting for me.
I had a harder time findinginternships in year two than
some of my other classmatesbecause they had either a family
member or a family friend thatwas already an attorney to hire
(26:33):
them for the summer.
So I didn't have any of thoseavenues.
The pro bono scholars programwas my ticket into an
internship.
Unfortunately, at the time, theBronx Defender's Office was
going through a strike, so theyweren't sure if I'd be able to
stay on, it was a tough timebecause I wanted to stay there,
I really enjoyed the job, but Iwasn't able to get an interview
afterwards.
(26:55):
So I called my professor, mymentor.
We talked about what avenues Imight have, where I could work,
what this would look like.
She helped me put together myresume.
At the end of that, I sent out acouple of different applications
to a couple of differentoffices.
The job offer that I acceptedwas the Center for Safety and
Change in Rockland County, wherewe help women, children, and
(27:15):
some men, with getting orders ofprotection when they're
survivors of domestic violence.
We help undocumented immigrantsfind pathways to citizenship,
especially when they're victimsof crimes.
We help with custody orders,visitation, divorce, different
types of family law, andimmigration law.
It's great.
Work to help people that don'thave voices.
(27:36):
I'm passionate about socialjustice.
Two very large groups that areoften oppressed are immigrants
and women.
Especially women of color.
So to be able to have those twodemographics, to be able to
represent those twodemographics, is exactly what I
would want to have done out oflaw school.
So to be able to be presentedwith that opportunity right
(27:57):
away, was awesome.
Miguel Sanchez (28:01):
in your experience at the, Bronx
Defenders and, now at the Centerfor Safety and Change what has
been the most challenging aspectof doing social justice work.
Miguel Lluesma (28:11):
The most challenging aspect, I would say,
is I'm trying.
I don't want to get too deepinto the legalities of the
systemic oppression that we seegoing on.
But basically, the legal systemsthat are set up.
There are a lot of barriers thatexist, especially for people of
color.
For immigrants, it's not easy.
(28:33):
And just a plain example is evenhaving access to an attorney.
Attorneys are expensive, So it'sreally not easy to get an
attorney.
And everyone, when you go into acourtroom, desperately needs an
attorney.
Thankfully, there are some waysthat people, can, Get an
attorney that, you know, there'spro bono work that's provided
Also in Rockland County, we havesomething called an 18 B panel
(28:56):
where attorneys that, are paidfor by the county and they
represent people who, are undera certain income level that
wouldn't be able to afford anattorney otherwise.
I would say that that's probablyone of the biggest barriers just
to be able to get properrepresentation.
There are a lot of people who goto court that have a lot of
money.
(29:16):
They can afford to get, youknow, the top, top attorney in
New York City to represent them.
And they get everything thatthey want in the courtroom.
And then there are those whohave absolutely nothing.
They come to this country with,very minimal things.
There are people who have been,working two jobs, nine to five,
and then six to midnight withfive kids and trying their best
(29:38):
to survive in this world.
They don't have time to findsomeone to represent them in
whatever case they might begoing on in.
That's one huge barrier, onehuge challenge that I see, which
is why I wanted to do the probono work, why I wanted to work
at a not for profit, because Iwanted to be able to help people
who, can't afford to get helpand really need good attorneys.
(29:59):
Thankfully there are a lot ofgood attorneys out there who do
this kind of work.
One of the other biggestchallenges, at least for me
personally, and from mytransition from the Bronx
defenders to the center forsafety and change was being on
one side of the law and then theother.
So at the public defender'soffice, I was representing
people that were allegedlyaccused of certain types of
(30:20):
crimes.
I was defending them trying tofigure out ways for them to
face, minimal jail time, to,make sure that, justice was fair
for them.
I believe that, if someonecommits a crime, you know, there
should be a punishment, but thenwe have to have a conversation
about what a fair punishment is.
So that was one of the reasonswhy I wanted to be at the Bronx
Defender's Office.
Then transitioning to The Centerfor Safety and Change where
(30:43):
you're on the other side of theaisle.
Now, you're usually doing,orders of protection for people
that are victims of crimes.
So the people that I wasdefending now I'm going up,
against.
That was a challenge for me.
I still have a heart for both.
There are a lot of people whothink that, if you commit a
crime or if you're guilty ofsomething you don't deserve
(31:04):
representation and you shouldjust go straight to jail and,
throw away the key.
That's not the way ourconstitution was set up.
That's not justice.
That's not fair.
So I have a heart.
for working at public defender'soffice, but at the same time, I
also have a heart for workingfor people that are victims of
domestic violence and sexualassault and many other types of
crimes.
You want them to be heard.
You want them to get justice aswell.
(31:26):
Finding that balance is achallenge in and of itself.
Miguel Sanchez (31:29):
I want to go back to the bar exam And this
will be our last section oftoday's episode.
Preparing for the LSAT bringsits challenges as you discussed.
going to law school has its setof challenges.
How was it like studying andtaking the bar exam
Miguel Lluesma (31:53):
I'm gonna need therapy after this session
because bringing up a traumaticexperience.
I say that lightly, but alsosomewhat serious.
It was horrible.
When I say it was horrible.
And a traumatic experience.
I don't want to scare peopleaway.
And I don't want people to thinkthat it's impossible.
Because it's not at the end ofthe day, there are thousands of
attorneys in this country.
(32:14):
While it is, a profession that,really tries to keep it small,
there are a lot of people thatpass the bar exam It's not
impossible.
You can do it for me It was verydifficult.
It was also a very difficulttime.
There were a couple of thingsthat happened in my personal
life, there were some trialsthat were going on.
And then on top of that, I'mstudying for the bar exam.
(32:35):
You're studying day and night,seven days a week, nonstop.
You are in this period ofloneliness.
There are very few people thatcan understand.
what you're going through whenyou're taking the bar exam.
It's also difficult if you'remarried or have children or have
someone that depends on you ormaybe you depend on that person.
(32:58):
It is very difficult on them aswell.
There were times where, I tookthe bar exam in February, which
means I was studying duringChristmas, Christmas Eve, New
Year's Eve, New Year's.
I had to step away and say, hey,thanks for dinner.
But I have to go study for thenext two or three hours.
It is not easy.
It's not easy for them too,because you're not there.
If you have small children,little Johnny has a basketball
(33:19):
game, but you have to study forthe bar exam.
I had, one professor tell us astory about how her sister
scheduled her wedding The daybefore the bar exam, and she was
supposed to be the maid ofhonor, and she told her sister.
I can't go.
Now, the person that told usthat said, you don't have to
(33:40):
make the same sacrifices if youhave to go to a wedding, go to a
wedding.
If you have to celebrateChristmas, celebrate Christmas,
but make sure you supplementthat time, with more studying
time in one of those other days.
This professor that told us thatstory said that for her, she
needed to study that day.
Otherwise she wouldn't havepassed.
You have to be mindful of yourschedule.
You have to be mindful of what'sgoing on at that time of life.
(34:02):
You're going to be missingthings.
But it is worth it.
And like I said, it's notimpossible.
The exam day was terrible.
I got a parking ticket outsideof, the armory in New York City
because I parked in front of afire hydrant.
I thought I failed and mostpeople that took that exam
thought they failed.
When all of the law studentswere walking into the building
to take the exam, we were allnervous, but kind of excited
(34:26):
talking.
At lunchtime, we were chatting abit.
By the time we left that exam,the final day, there was nothing
but Silence.
I've never heard anywhere in NewYork City as quiet as the final
hour of that bar exam.
The mood was different.
Everybody was just like, whatthe heck just happened?
It feels like you got hit by atruck.
(34:48):
I think I slept for 16 hoursstraight the next day.
I went to bed and didn't wakeup.
I got 8 hours of sleep, woke upfor maybe 30 minutes, had
something to eat, went rightback to sleep for another 8
hours.
It was such a mentally,physically, and I would even say
emotionally and spirituallydraining.
When I found out that I passedthe bar exam, I was overcome
(35:11):
with joy.
So much pressure was lifted.
I did cry because I was like,This is crazy.
I thought I failed.
I ended up passing.
But it was extremelyencouraging, to say I passed the
bar exam.
This is a big deal, especiallyfor someone like me, who never
did that well in school.
To have this accomplishment washuge and to be able to share it
(35:32):
with friends, family, people inthe church I knew were praying
for me, was really awesome.
It was even more, joyful for meto be able to know.
All right, that's out of the wayNow it's time to get to real
work.
I'm excited to be here.
I'm thankful for all of theopportunities that god continues
to give me Like I said at thebeginning of the podcast I told
(35:55):
him to open the doors and Iwould run through them And he's
still opening the doors and i'mstill running through each and
every day I wouldn't have beenable to do this without the
support of my community myfamily I'm a first generation
law student, so I didn't havesome of the resources that
others had, to have, like Isaid, my church community, my
wife, my parents, my friends,was crucial.
(36:17):
So if you're a first generationlaw student listening, today,
find that support system, tap ineach and every day.
Don't be afraid to ask for help.
Don't be afraid to go up to yourlaw professor and ask them for
help.
They want to help you.
They'll seem scary on day one.
But that's not really them.
law professors are human beingswho had to go through a first
(36:37):
year of law school, had to takethe LSAT, had to take the bar
exam, had to get admitted andthen had to go to that first job
interview.
So, be encouraged, and just,Open those doors and keep
running through them.
Miguel Sanchez (36:51):
I Don't think there's any, better way to end,
Thank you for sharing yourexperience as a first gen law
student.
Miguel just gave us so many tipsand so much advice that is
worth, re watching or sharingwith anyone else who is thinking
about law school.
That being said, thank you,Miguel.
Miguel Lluesma (37:09):
Thanks for having me.
Miguel Sanchez (37:10):
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoy the episode.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Don't forget to leave a review.
Until next time.
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