August 7, 2025 • 29 mins
🎧 Ever wondered what it's like to navigate law school as a first-gen student? Join us on the latest episode of "First Gen 101" as Jonathan Campozano shares his personal experiences and tips for future law students. Don’t miss it! ⚖️ #LawSchool #FirstGenSuccess
In this episode of First Gen 101, host Miguel Sanchez interviews Jonathan Campozano, a practicing immigration attorney. Jonathan shares insights into his journey through law school, how he managed the challenges as a first-generation student, and the importance of finding supportive mentors and student groups. He discusses his work in the immigration clinic under Professor Vanessa Merton, his internships, and offers practical advice for preparing for and succeeding in law school. Tune in to hear about Jonathan's transformative experience and his career path in immigration law.
00:00 Introduction
01:05 Meet Jonathan Campuzano
01:40 Jonathan's Journey to Law School
05:34 Challenges and Preparation for Law School
08:03 First Year Law School Experiences
12:25 Finding Community and Support
17:24 Immigration Clinic and Mentorship
21:01 Memorable Experiences and Career Impact
24:10 Advice for First Generation Law Students
28:30 Conclusion and Final Tips
🔔 Subscribe to this podcast and follow us on:
📱 Facebook: First Gen 101
📸 Instagram: @firstgen101podcast
🎵 TikTok: @firstgen101
🌐 Website: podcast.firstgen101.com
🎤 Do you want to be a podcast guest or know someone with an inspiring story who should be on the podcast?
📧 Send an email to miguel@firstgen101.com
🙏 Thank you for listening! Please leave a ⭐️ rating and review!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jonathan Campozano (00:03):
I would recommend if, if you are going
to law school, search forstudent groups that, that align
with your experience and see howyou can, can interact with
others.
Because if you don't, law schoolcan sometimes be lonely and it's
very stressful at times.
And so interacting with others,even if you don't have the time,
make the time.
(00:25):
Professor Merton somehow wasgoing in a million directions,
but found the time to focus onyou, and that's what she was
able to do for me.
She was invested in my growth,not just as an attorney, as a
person, always engaging andthoughtful and provoking
conversation, whether it was atearly in the morning or late at
(00:50):
night, past midnight sometimes,but she would always.
Find a way to to be there foryou, to be there to show the way
of how to be a great immigrationattorney.
Miguel Sanchez (01:07):
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to another episodeof First Gen 1 0 1.
My name is Miguel Sanchez andtoday I have Jonathan Campuzano.
Jonathan, thank you for joiningus today.
Jonathan Campozano (01:20):
Thank you So much for having me, Miguel.
Miguel Sanchez (01:22):
This is another episode focusing on the
experience as a first generationstudent in a law school.
I met Jonathan at the ElizabethHobbs School of Law, And at the
time.
He was, in the immigrationclinic and Jonathan, let's start
with that.
What are you doing now?
Are you practicing immigrationlaw?
Jonathan Campozano (01:44):
Yeah, I'm practicing immigration law now.
I began my career after lawschool in immigration law.
But in between, from when Ibegan to now, I actually worked
in government for some time atthe state level and then at the
local level as well.
Miguel Sanchez (02:01):
So we'll go deeper into that, later on, but
one of the fascinating thingsabout earning a JD is it's such
a robust degree that you canapply it and practice in
different areas.
you can do different things.
And Jonathan, I'm sure he'lltell us more about that later
on.
But let's start.
(02:22):
Why did you go to law school?
At what point in your life didyou decide you wanted to be an
attorney?
Jonathan Campozano (02:28):
probably my third year of college.
For the second or third yearthe, I had done a few
internships at different lawfirms.
An accounting law firm anadoption law firm.
But not until I did aninternship at an immigration law
firm.
It was, is when I realized,okay, I had a personal interest
in immigration because of myfamily background.
(02:49):
My father came to the UnitedStates from Ecuador.
My grandparents on my mother, onmy mother's side came here from
Puerto Rico.
And so I always had a personalinterest, in my family story,
and it's immigration story.
Now it was something where,okay, I see a future where I
apply, I can connect my interestpersonally and professionally.
And so after I interned at animmigration law firm, that's
(03:11):
when my interest peaked and Iknew.
Miguel Sanchez (03:16):
Did you have any role models who were
attorneys that you looked up to?
How did you get mentorship infinding the right school or
preparing for law school?
Jonathan Campozano (03:27):
I did a lot of it on my own, honestly.
My parents didn't go to lawschool.
I don't have a lot of familyhere in the United States.
And so my network, family wise,to try to get insight
professionally was very limited.
So my mentorship came throughthe places where I worked,
(03:49):
whether it was the attorney atthe immigration law firm, Robin
bca, and then later on when Iwas in law school, Professor
Vanessa Merton, tho, those werereally the two core mentors that
I had throughout my law schoolexperience.
But outside of that goingthrough, looking at law schools,
figuring out where I wanted toapply, where I wanted to go.
(04:11):
It it was really a trial anderror figuring it out on my own,
Miguel Sanchez (04:17):
Your parents did not go to law school.
They're not lawyers.
And so when you told them youwere going to law school or you
were thinking about going to lawschool, what did they say to
you?
what was their reaction?
How did they to that?
Jonathan Campozano (04:32):
very excited.
Especially in Hispanic culture,being a lawyer is so respected
in in Latin America lawyers arereferred to as doctor where here
in the United States, we holddoctors to, in high regard and
so they, they were excited.
But, Outside of the excitementand encouragement, figuring out
(04:55):
the ways or how to go, it it wasa lot on me.
I had the support financiallyand emotionally but figuring out
exactly finding the path, a lotof it was searches.
and videos like these in the
Miguel Sanchez (05:12):
So really the heart of this podcast, and I've
mentioned this at otherepisodes, it's to bridge that
gap.
And as you mentioned really thegoal is for future students or
prospective students to lookback and listen to this
conversation and find theinformation and some of the
experiences to help them makethe best choices.
(05:34):
And so as you were exploring lawschool and preparing for law
school, what was the hardestpart of preparing for law
school?
For those of you listening whoare interested in law school,
there are many requirements Whatwas the hardest part of
preparing for law school?
Jonathan Campozano (05:52):
Definitely studying for the LSAT and being
dedicated at it.
I did a program that wasactually hosted at Elisabeth
Haub School of Law, which wasthe focus approach which was
every Saturday for a few monthsI believe from 9:00 AM to 2:00
PM just hammering down on thedifferent parts of the LSAT.
But then the responsibility wason me applying that practice
(06:15):
throughout the week.
And so that was definitely a bigchallenge.
Just figuring out where am Igonna get the best offer based
on figuring out how that'scalculated?
The LSAT score goes into it, theGPA goes into it and figuring
out.
If I do this, how, how can Ifigure out how to pay for this
Miguel Sanchez (06:34):
did you get a chance to visit other law
schools?
How did that process look likefor you in selecting the school?
Jonathan Campozano (06:40):
I don't think I visited any other law
schools except pace.
Now, when we talk about thisnow, maybe I should have.
but like you said, I'm fromWestchester.
I went to college inWestchester.
I grew up in Westchester.
And so it, it just.
Made the most sense for what Iwanted to do.
I went to SUNY schools in partthinking, okay, if I do law
(07:02):
school, I want to go to lawschool at, with no debt or as
little debt as possible.
And so thinking about making acommute to the city or moving to
the city.
It just wasn't the right Fit forme at that time.
And so pace in terms ofproximity and then compared with
the other schools, the offersthat I received it was one of
(07:22):
the best ones.
And so that definitely helped me
Miguel Sanchez (07:29):
One of the.
things that we highlight forprospective law students is, and
I, and you mentioned this justnow, it's the importance of
visiting schools.
If you are applying to differentschools and the schools are not
within your area, or not withinDistance where you can just
drive or take publictransportation.
You will be living in this areafor the next three or four
(07:52):
years.
So it's really important thatyou visit as many schools as you
can, because it will help yousee the area where you're gonna
live and you wanna be sure thatyou make the best decision.
when you started your firstsemester, at what point did you
realize This is not likeundergrad.
What was the most challengingpart of being a law student in
(08:14):
your first semester?
Jonathan Campozano (08:17):
So I, I went into law school pretty blind.
Like, I I didn't know much.
I understood, three years beforelaw school started, I was
emailing asking if I can join aclinic, not realizing that
classes are selected for you inthe first year.
And so when I realize it's notlike undergrad you get called on
(08:41):
unexpectedly, law school uses.
Most professors use the Socraticmethod.
You get called on randomly, puton the spot, and so that can be
very intimidating.
then once you're in your secondyear, your third year, you
realize As stressful as that canbe, it's building you for
practice in the court.
But in my first semester, Iwould hear my professors talk
(09:03):
about, Oh, Thanksgiving break oraround that time is the best
time to start preparing youroutline.
And I would hear about theoutline hear about the outline.
and.
I was afraid of asking to andseeming I don't know what I'm
what I'm doing when everyoneelse is reacting okay, yeah,
definitely gonna prepare myoutline.
(09:24):
I had no idea what the outlinewas but luckily I was invited
into a study group.
To prepare the outline still atthat point, when we have the
invitation down, I have no ideawhat we're gonna do when we meet
up to to prepare the outline.
And I realized it was just afancy way to say study.
guide.
So, when I look back now, Ishould have just asked and just
(09:47):
even if it was to a classmate,et cetera, but you.
Everyone you're trying to doyour best.
You're trying to you.
have three years to impress yourprofessors, your fellow
students.
But I wish I would've just askedinstead of going through
September, October and ofNovember, not understanding what
(10:09):
it is that we should have beenpreparing.
Miguel Sanchez (10:12):
I wanna expand expand on that that point about
asking for help.
And when I talk to law students,typically around Thanksgiving or
October, and I see their facehas changed, that excitement
that they came in August turnsinto panic and you see that
(10:33):
change.
And generally.
I'll ask them, what's going on.
And usually they will tell memore or less, there's so many
things that I didn't know comingin that I'm figuring out now and
not just figuring out what Ihave to do, but also learning
the material.
And a lot of times, and I dothis often, I tell them just ask
(10:55):
for help as faculty, ask otherstudents, what do you think is,
why do you think it's so hard toask for help?
Jonathan Campozano (11:06):
You are going into an environment that
maybe you're not familiar with,and you don't want to appear at
least to yourself, clueless, Andthen appear clueless to others.
And so you just stay quiet andmaybe this is maybe my
subjective point of view, butyou just don't want to come off
(11:26):
as you don't know what you'redoing.
But I remember duringorientation.
I would see professors,especially during we're taking
attendance or if they wouldrecognize a last name.
Oh, is so and so your brother oryour cousin or your uncle me.
And meanwhile, I'm there theydon't, they have no idea who I
am but at least thoseindividuals.
(11:48):
They had some sort of resource.
They had a physical Google thatthey can go to ask, Hey, when I
go to my first semester, whatshould I do?
They tho those students alreadyhad outlines sent to them before
the semester even started.
so yeah, that, that's.
That's the difficult thing.
And you just wanna make surethat the opportunity to attend
(12:12):
law school, you make the most ofit.
And I think sometimes we put somuch pressure on ourselves that
We don't think we can go up fora breath of air and ask for
Miguel Sanchez (12:25):
As you were going through your first year in
law school you mentioned this inthe beginning, you joined this
study group.
Did you find other students thatwere also struggling?
And how did you find otherpeople that were also
struggling?
And how were you able to helpeach other?
How did finding your communitywork out for you?
(12:47):
At least during your first year?
Jonathan Campozano (12:50):
Thankfully, that study group stuck with me
through the first semester andthe second semester because we
were in the same section whichwas another thing that I had no
idea about going into lawschool.
You're separated into sectionsfor your first year.
And so we de we were definitelyin solidarity in terms of
(13:10):
struggling and trying to figureout the best way to study but,
simple things like splitting up,Okay?
You you put together thisportion of the outline of the
this section of the syllabus.
And if you are better at this.
of the course then you go up tothe whiteboard and explain it to
us and just talking thingsthrough and being, I guess you
(13:32):
can say in, in a safe spacewhere you aren't afraid to ask
the dumb question, or if youdon't understand something,
feeling comfortable to say, youknow what, I don't get this do
the rest of you understand thisso that you can help me
understand.
Miguel Sanchez (13:47):
In that process of helping each other it sounds
like you found this close-knitgroup that support each other,
understood the challenges thatwere similar.
In that process, how do youbalance, and this is something
that that I always wonder'causeI didn't go to school myself,
but I spent enough, enough timewith law students that I've seen
(14:10):
this situation, how do youbalance those friendships or
those let's call'em friendshipswith that competitiveness of law
school?
Jonathan Campozano (14:21):
I guess I was lucky in the sense that my
group we didn't have that wherewe were going at each other's
necks.
We I think we sincerely andgenuinely wanted the other to to
do the best as possible.
But I do remember that therewere others who would isolate
themselves and study on theirown and not really appear as a
(14:45):
team member.
But.
That was their prerogative.
They wanted to just gun forfirst place and not associate
with others.
But whereas I felt comfort,comfort in understanding or
hearing others have similarstruggles to And
Miguel Sanchez (15:07):
We had a, an admitted student who came to the
law school.
And one of the things that sheasked when we were talking about
the bar exam, she looked at meand said, what is that?
What is a bar exam?
And.
I explained it and try to helpthem see why is that why that's
(15:28):
important.
You needed to pass the bar.
You need to pass the bar exam toget license to eventually
practice law.
What were some other things thatyou learned throughout your one
L year, your first year in lawschool that you didn't realize
you had to do to either practicelaw or to graduate I
Jonathan Campozano (15:45):
I learned that most professors, your grade
is based on just the final examand in part attendance, there
was homework, but it wasn'tnecessarily being calculated
into your grade.
And at least in undergrad, thedifference was where you're
doing homework, you're gettingsmall quizzes.
So you get a good sense of yourprogress, but really you don't
(16:08):
find out sometimes with certainprofessors how you're doing in
the course until you get yourfinal exam.
That, that was something that Ididn't realize in the first
year.
But then even things likeunderstanding there isn't just
the bar exam that you need to beable to get your license in New
York.
There's the NPRE, the NYLE andso even figuring that out when
(16:30):
it's like you thought oh, theone big thing is the bar exam,
but there's also this that youneed to be able to get your
license.
Miguel Sanchez (16:39):
to those of you who are listening and are
wondering about these exams.
I'm going to leave links on theshow notes to that will take you
to the New York State Board ofExaminers so you can learn more
about these exams and whythey're important.
So we finished one L year, youfinish your first year of law
school, you go into your secondyear, did your interest change?
(17:02):
You came in thinking aboutimmigration law, did that
interest remain?
I know for many students they'lloften realize, okay, I didn't
think this area of law that Iwas interested in is what I
thought it was.
Did that change that for you?
And if it didn't, what did youdo in your second and third year
to harness that interest or todevelop skills for that
(17:23):
interest?
Jonathan Campozano (17:24):
So I was lucky enough to be allowed to
participate in the immigrationclinic.
As a second year student,generally the three Ls get
priority because they're ontheir way out.
But luckily professor Mertonpicked me and allowed me to do
the clinic in my second year andthen my third year.
But what I, before we jump topast the first year something
(17:49):
that and your question remindedme, I was working for two hours
in between classes.
So the schedule was set up.
where you have a 9:00 AM classand like a1 or 2:00 PM class.
and I was going to animmigration law firm in between
looking back now, I probablyshouldn't have done that to be
able to focus on my studies.
that's just how invested I wasin wanting to pursue a career in
(18:13):
immigration law.
And I think that in part waswhat allowed Professor Merton to
feel comfortable enough to allowme to join the clinic as a
second year student.
So that interest remainedthroughout it was an amazing
experience.
Learned a lot And, probably the,the, there's a, there's a saying
(18:34):
that, The first year of lawschool is the hardest year.
The second year is the busiestyear and the third year, you
Miguel Sanchez (18:44):
That is true.
And having worked in the clinicWorking for faculty and working
with law students.
I do recall a lot of three Lsjust wanting to leave, but I'm
not gonna go into detail thispoint.
Now you are in the immigrationclinic, you are working under
professor Vanessa Merton.
How was it working withprofessor Merton?
(19:05):
How was she like a mentor?
How did she help you in pursuingyour interest for immigration
law?
Jonathan Campozano (19:12):
So when I was either interviewing for the
clinic or when I was.
When I joined the clinic, therewas a brief conversation with
Professor Merton where shewanted to understand your
weaknesses, your strengths, whatdo you want to improve?
And I always had a fear ofpublic speaking, and I shared
(19:34):
that with her.
Little did I know when I sharedthat with her every time we had
seminar.
she would go out of her way tocall on me every single class,
even for the smallest thing,even if she knew the answer or
someone else already answeredsome way, somehow she would find
a way me, not realizing that wasso that I can practice speaking
(19:58):
before a group.
Professor Merton called on me somuch that I got a gift or I
received a gift during a giftexchange during the holidays in
my first year.
And it a, It's this ball righthere.
It has a picture.
It's not that clear, but it's apicture of Vanessa Press Merton.
And it says there, Jonathan witha question mark.
That's how much she would callon me during class.
(20:21):
She somehow was going in amillion directions, but found
the time to focus on you, andthat's what she was able to do
for me.
She was invested.
In my growth, not just as anattorney, but as a person always
engaging and thoughtful andprovoking conversation.
(20:42):
Whether it was at in the morningor early, late at night, past
midnight sometimes but she wouldalways find a way to, to be
there for you to be there, toshow the way of how to be a
great immigration attorney.
Miguel Sanchez (21:01):
What was your most memorable?
experience As a student internin the immigration clinic.
Jonathan Campozano (21:09):
Definitely a couple things.
Definitely all the times wheresome way, somehow Professor
Merton would be there until verylate at night.
and despite having done so muchwork, you just end up having a
conversation about anything,whether it was politics, whether
it was family whether it wasschoolwork or anything.
(21:34):
Those random moments that Ican't even, I can't remember
specifically, but just, I justremember always being able to
have a conversation with her atthe clinic.
But definitely the the tripsthat we took to Dilley, Texas.
That was definitely one of themost memorable experiences where
we went to close to the Texasborder and volunteered at a
(21:57):
detention center where we helpedwomen and children prepare for.
their credible fear interviews,so they, they're being
interviewed by asylum officersabout the reasons for why they
entered the United States.
And if they passed theinterview, they could continue
their process in trying topursue asylum here in the United
States.
And those were very gruelingdays, 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM Where
(22:20):
we and I think it was maybe 45minutes increments where we were
able to interview and preparethe woman and children.
And we did that for, we werethere for about a week, but it
was Monday through Friday.
And so that was an experiencemade possible by Professor
Merton.
And never forget the feeling,especially cause I had the
(22:43):
opportunity to go three times,but definitely the feeling after
the first time where I thinkmost, if not everyone in the
group really felt life put intoperspective and how lucky we are
sometimes and we don't
Miguel Sanchez (22:59):
And how did you make the connection to finding
your first job?
Was that instrumental in gettingyour first job?
How did it help the process?
Jonathan Campozano (23:10):
It's one thing when you're here in New
York and you meet with potentialclients or with your clients,
and there maybe three months,six months, maybe a year removed
from whatever they may have beenfleeing.
but at the border the woman andchildren may have suffered
before coming to the detentioncenter could have happened.
(23:31):
or a couple of weeks prior.
And so the detail is much moreintense because the memories are
much more vivid.
It definitely renewed myinterest or deepened my interest
in wanting to become animmigration attorney.
That's me to pursue a fellowshipwith Immigrant Justice Corps
(23:51):
that Professor Merton.
Really was a driving force inhelping me get that fellowship.
And so, yeah, that, thatexperience definitely, like I
said, deepened my interest inbecoming an immigration attorney
and wanting to help some of themost vulnerable.
Miguel Sanchez (24:10):
So for first generation law students it's the
preparing for law school that'snew.
And that's a challenge justpreparing for law school.
Then there's the actual lawschool Part, going to class, the
cold calling that you mentioned,outlining that in and of itself
presents challenges for firstgeneration law students.
(24:33):
And now you are leaving lawschool, you're graduating.
What are some of the thingsthat, looking back, you, you
want to advise first generationstudents as there.
preparing for their career?
Whether it's interview tips,networking, what are some things
that first generation lawstudents should know?
Jonathan Campozano (24:54):
I would say the professors want to help you
more than you think.
You see them, especially whenyou're fresh into law schools,
almost these big intimidatingfigures.
When in reality, when They'rethere.
And especially teaching brandnew students because they want
to.
make an impact on these newstudents who are pursuing a law
(25:17):
degree.
And I I would say thatdefinitely, I wish I would've
approached my professors more inthose moments of doubt and
insecurity.
But even before getting to lawschool, I wish I would have
reached out to current studentsat the law schools.
(25:37):
I wish I would've.
Attended more tours and speak toother law schools.
I wish I would've spoken tomembers of the Lawa at the law
school to get their feedback.
And I eventually did.
I would've done that beforegoing into law school,
especially since I didn't haveanyone to speak with.
(25:59):
about that experience.
I did know a couple of attorneysfrom the internships, their law
school experience was many yearsago and different from what was
happening at the time Iattended.
they
Miguel Sanchez (26:16):
So if you're thinking about applying to law
school.
As Jonathan said, connect withstudents, connect with faculty.
When I see a student who hasquestions, when I see a
prospective student who hasquestions about a program or a
career, I do my best to connectthem with The community, because
(26:36):
they can really as Jonathansaid, a real time, so to speak,
real time advice because they'rein law school.
I see that law school can be atransformative experience.
how would you say going to lawschool transform your life?
Jonathan Campozano (26:55):
I think in my day-to-day life, sometimes
it's difficult to switch mybrain from lawyer mode and turn
it off and not be so analytical.
in my personal life, sometimes.
I'll a apply, say, in aconversation, if something was
(27:15):
omitted, Oh then the implicationmust be that they meant this.
where it, They didn't say it.
So then it's not what they said,but lawyer mode takes my brain
into that, especially in mypersonal life.
I would say it's J just changingme personally.
I think my most cherished mecherished memories are.
(27:40):
The time that I spent, and Imentioned earlier Lawa, but I
didn't explain what it was.
It was, it's the Latin AmericanLaw Students Association at the
law school's, a student group.
And just The time that I spentwith them and being able to
spend time, share moments with.
Students of similar backgroundsnot just ethnically, but also
(28:01):
personally, they also didn'thave family members who went to
law school.
And just dealing with this withsimilar struggles.
So that, that was definitely,and I would recommend if you are
going to law school search forstudent groups that that align
with your experience and see howyou can can interact with others
because if you don't law schoolcan sometimes be lonely and it's
(28:24):
very stressful at times.
And so interacting with others,even if you don't
Miguel Sanchez (28:30):
before we close, is there anything that we
haven't discussed any tips youwanna leave for the audience
today?
Jonathan Campozano (28:40):
when I for the bar exam they set a schedule
nine to five.
I was a morning person.
So I would set it earlier.
But my piece of advice, if forthe day you get to the bar exam
is during your lunch break orthe breaks that you give
yourself.
pick a sitcom Because theepisodes are short.
(29:03):
And so if you give yourself 40minutes to an hour, you can get
two to three episodes and itfeel like you're watching a lot.
And so if you noticed Dwightover my shoulder, the show that
I watched during the bar examwas The Office.
And so that definitely helped metrick me mentally to feel like I
was giving myself a lot of freetime when I actually was just
giving myself the normal amount.
(29:23):
of time.
Miguel Sanchez (29:26):
So I guess we can say the office led you to
your in an office.
Jonathan, thank you for sharingyour story with us.
Thank you for your time.
And for all of you catch thenext episode, make sure to
subscribe.
Thank you for being here,Jonathan.
Jonathan Campozano (29:42):
Thank you.
I would recommend if, if you are going
to law school, search forstudent groups that, that align
with your experience and see howyou can, can interact with
others.
Because if you don't, law schoolcan sometimes be lonely and it's
very stressful at times.
And so interacting with others,even if you don't have the time,
make the time.
(00:25):
Professor Merton somehow wasgoing in a million directions,
but found the time to focus onyou, and that's what she was
able to do for me.
She was invested in my growth,not just as an attorney, as a
person, always engaging andthoughtful and provoking
conversation, whether it was atearly in the morning or late at
(00:50):
night, past midnight sometimes,but she would always.
Find a way to to be there foryou, to be there to show the way
of how to be a great immigrationattorney.
Miguel Sanchez (01:07):
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to another episodeof First Gen 1 0 1.
My name is Miguel Sanchez andtoday I have Jonathan Campuzano.
Jonathan, thank you for joiningus today.
Jonathan Campozano (01:20):
Thank you So much for having me, Miguel.
Miguel Sanchez (01:22):
This is another episode focusing on the
experience as a first generationstudent in a law school.
I met Jonathan at the ElizabethHobbs School of Law, And at the
time.
He was, in the immigrationclinic and Jonathan, let's start
with that.
What are you doing now?
Are you practicing immigrationlaw?
Jonathan Campozano (01:44):
Yeah, I'm practicing immigration law now.
I began my career after lawschool in immigration law.
But in between, from when Ibegan to now, I actually worked
in government for some time atthe state level and then at the
local level as well.
Miguel Sanchez (02:01):
So we'll go deeper into that, later on, but
one of the fascinating thingsabout earning a JD is it's such
a robust degree that you canapply it and practice in
different areas.
you can do different things.
And Jonathan, I'm sure he'lltell us more about that later
on.
But let's start.
(02:22):
Why did you go to law school?
At what point in your life didyou decide you wanted to be an
attorney?
Jonathan Campozano (02:28):
probably my third year of college.
For the second or third yearthe, I had done a few
internships at different lawfirms.
An accounting law firm anadoption law firm.
But not until I did aninternship at an immigration law
firm.
It was, is when I realized,okay, I had a personal interest
in immigration because of myfamily background.
(02:49):
My father came to the UnitedStates from Ecuador.
My grandparents on my mother, onmy mother's side came here from
Puerto Rico.
And so I always had a personalinterest, in my family story,
and it's immigration story.
Now it was something where,okay, I see a future where I
apply, I can connect my interestpersonally and professionally.
And so after I interned at animmigration law firm, that's
(03:11):
when my interest peaked and Iknew.
Miguel Sanchez (03:16):
Did you have any role models who were
attorneys that you looked up to?
How did you get mentorship infinding the right school or
preparing for law school?
Jonathan Campozano (03:27):
I did a lot of it on my own, honestly.
My parents didn't go to lawschool.
I don't have a lot of familyhere in the United States.
And so my network, family wise,to try to get insight
professionally was very limited.
So my mentorship came throughthe places where I worked,
(03:49):
whether it was the attorney atthe immigration law firm, Robin
bca, and then later on when Iwas in law school, Professor
Vanessa Merton, tho, those werereally the two core mentors that
I had throughout my law schoolexperience.
But outside of that goingthrough, looking at law schools,
figuring out where I wanted toapply, where I wanted to go.
(04:11):
It it was really a trial anderror figuring it out on my own,
Miguel Sanchez (04:17):
Your parents did not go to law school.
They're not lawyers.
And so when you told them youwere going to law school or you
were thinking about going to lawschool, what did they say to
you?
what was their reaction?
How did they to that?
Jonathan Campozano (04:32):
very excited.
Especially in Hispanic culture,being a lawyer is so respected
in in Latin America lawyers arereferred to as doctor where here
in the United States, we holddoctors to, in high regard and
so they, they were excited.
But, Outside of the excitementand encouragement, figuring out
(04:55):
the ways or how to go, it it wasa lot on me.
I had the support financiallyand emotionally but figuring out
exactly finding the path, a lotof it was searches.
and videos like these in the
Miguel Sanchez (05:12):
So really the heart of this podcast, and I've
mentioned this at otherepisodes, it's to bridge that
gap.
And as you mentioned really thegoal is for future students or
prospective students to lookback and listen to this
conversation and find theinformation and some of the
experiences to help them makethe best choices.
(05:34):
And so as you were exploring lawschool and preparing for law
school, what was the hardestpart of preparing for law
school?
For those of you listening whoare interested in law school,
there are many requirements Whatwas the hardest part of
preparing for law school?
Jonathan Campozano (05:52):
Definitely studying for the LSAT and being
dedicated at it.
I did a program that wasactually hosted at Elisabeth
Haub School of Law, which wasthe focus approach which was
every Saturday for a few monthsI believe from 9:00 AM to 2:00
PM just hammering down on thedifferent parts of the LSAT.
But then the responsibility wason me applying that practice
(06:15):
throughout the week.
And so that was definitely a bigchallenge.
Just figuring out where am Igonna get the best offer based
on figuring out how that'scalculated?
The LSAT score goes into it, theGPA goes into it and figuring
out.
If I do this, how, how can Ifigure out how to pay for this
Miguel Sanchez (06:34):
did you get a chance to visit other law
schools?
How did that process look likefor you in selecting the school?
Jonathan Campozano (06:40):
I don't think I visited any other law
schools except pace.
Now, when we talk about thisnow, maybe I should have.
but like you said, I'm fromWestchester.
I went to college inWestchester.
I grew up in Westchester.
And so it, it just.
Made the most sense for what Iwanted to do.
I went to SUNY schools in partthinking, okay, if I do law
(07:02):
school, I want to go to lawschool at, with no debt or as
little debt as possible.
And so thinking about making acommute to the city or moving to
the city.
It just wasn't the right Fit forme at that time.
And so pace in terms ofproximity and then compared with
the other schools, the offersthat I received it was one of
(07:22):
the best ones.
And so that definitely helped me
Miguel Sanchez (07:29):
One of the.
things that we highlight forprospective law students is, and
I, and you mentioned this justnow, it's the importance of
visiting schools.
If you are applying to differentschools and the schools are not
within your area, or not withinDistance where you can just
drive or take publictransportation.
You will be living in this areafor the next three or four
(07:52):
years.
So it's really important thatyou visit as many schools as you
can, because it will help yousee the area where you're gonna
live and you wanna be sure thatyou make the best decision.
when you started your firstsemester, at what point did you
realize This is not likeundergrad.
What was the most challengingpart of being a law student in
(08:14):
your first semester?
Jonathan Campozano (08:17):
So I, I went into law school pretty blind.
Like, I I didn't know much.
I understood, three years beforelaw school started, I was
emailing asking if I can join aclinic, not realizing that
classes are selected for you inthe first year.
And so when I realize it's notlike undergrad you get called on
(08:41):
unexpectedly, law school uses.
Most professors use the Socraticmethod.
You get called on randomly, puton the spot, and so that can be
very intimidating.
then once you're in your secondyear, your third year, you
realize As stressful as that canbe, it's building you for
practice in the court.
But in my first semester, Iwould hear my professors talk
(09:03):
about, Oh, Thanksgiving break oraround that time is the best
time to start preparing youroutline.
And I would hear about theoutline hear about the outline.
and.
I was afraid of asking to andseeming I don't know what I'm
what I'm doing when everyoneelse is reacting okay, yeah,
definitely gonna prepare myoutline.
(09:24):
I had no idea what the outlinewas but luckily I was invited
into a study group.
To prepare the outline still atthat point, when we have the
invitation down, I have no ideawhat we're gonna do when we meet
up to to prepare the outline.
And I realized it was just afancy way to say study.
guide.
So, when I look back now, Ishould have just asked and just
(09:47):
even if it was to a classmate,et cetera, but you.
Everyone you're trying to doyour best.
You're trying to you.
have three years to impress yourprofessors, your fellow
students.
But I wish I would've just askedinstead of going through
September, October and ofNovember, not understanding what
(10:09):
it is that we should have beenpreparing.
Miguel Sanchez (10:12):
I wanna expand expand on that that point about
asking for help.
And when I talk to law students,typically around Thanksgiving or
October, and I see their facehas changed, that excitement
that they came in August turnsinto panic and you see that
(10:33):
change.
And generally.
I'll ask them, what's going on.
And usually they will tell memore or less, there's so many
things that I didn't know comingin that I'm figuring out now and
not just figuring out what Ihave to do, but also learning
the material.
And a lot of times, and I dothis often, I tell them just ask
(10:55):
for help as faculty, ask otherstudents, what do you think is,
why do you think it's so hard toask for help?
Jonathan Campozano (11:06):
You are going into an environment that
maybe you're not familiar with,and you don't want to appear at
least to yourself, clueless, Andthen appear clueless to others.
And so you just stay quiet andmaybe this is maybe my
subjective point of view, butyou just don't want to come off
(11:26):
as you don't know what you'redoing.
But I remember duringorientation.
I would see professors,especially during we're taking
attendance or if they wouldrecognize a last name.
Oh, is so and so your brother oryour cousin or your uncle me.
And meanwhile, I'm there theydon't, they have no idea who I
am but at least thoseindividuals.
(11:48):
They had some sort of resource.
They had a physical Google thatthey can go to ask, Hey, when I
go to my first semester, whatshould I do?
They tho those students alreadyhad outlines sent to them before
the semester even started.
so yeah, that, that's.
That's the difficult thing.
And you just wanna make surethat the opportunity to attend
(12:12):
law school, you make the most ofit.
And I think sometimes we put somuch pressure on ourselves that
We don't think we can go up fora breath of air and ask for
Miguel Sanchez (12:25):
As you were going through your first year in
law school you mentioned this inthe beginning, you joined this
study group.
Did you find other students thatwere also struggling?
And how did you find otherpeople that were also
struggling?
And how were you able to helpeach other?
How did finding your communitywork out for you?
(12:47):
At least during your first year?
Jonathan Campozano (12:50):
Thankfully, that study group stuck with me
through the first semester andthe second semester because we
were in the same section whichwas another thing that I had no
idea about going into lawschool.
You're separated into sectionsfor your first year.
And so we de we were definitelyin solidarity in terms of
(13:10):
struggling and trying to figureout the best way to study but,
simple things like splitting up,Okay?
You you put together thisportion of the outline of the
this section of the syllabus.
And if you are better at this.
of the course then you go up tothe whiteboard and explain it to
us and just talking thingsthrough and being, I guess you
(13:32):
can say in, in a safe spacewhere you aren't afraid to ask
the dumb question, or if youdon't understand something,
feeling comfortable to say, youknow what, I don't get this do
the rest of you understand thisso that you can help me
understand.
Miguel Sanchez (13:47):
In that process of helping each other it sounds
like you found this close-knitgroup that support each other,
understood the challenges thatwere similar.
In that process, how do youbalance, and this is something
that that I always wonder'causeI didn't go to school myself,
but I spent enough, enough timewith law students that I've seen
(14:10):
this situation, how do youbalance those friendships or
those let's call'em friendshipswith that competitiveness of law
school?
Jonathan Campozano (14:21):
I guess I was lucky in the sense that my
group we didn't have that wherewe were going at each other's
necks.
We I think we sincerely andgenuinely wanted the other to to
do the best as possible.
But I do remember that therewere others who would isolate
themselves and study on theirown and not really appear as a
(14:45):
team member.
But.
That was their prerogative.
They wanted to just gun forfirst place and not associate
with others.
But whereas I felt comfort,comfort in understanding or
hearing others have similarstruggles to And
Miguel Sanchez (15:07):
We had a, an admitted student who came to the
law school.
And one of the things that sheasked when we were talking about
the bar exam, she looked at meand said, what is that?
What is a bar exam?
And.
I explained it and try to helpthem see why is that why that's
(15:28):
important.
You needed to pass the bar.
You need to pass the bar exam toget license to eventually
practice law.
What were some other things thatyou learned throughout your one
L year, your first year in lawschool that you didn't realize
you had to do to either practicelaw or to graduate I
Jonathan Campozano (15:45):
I learned that most professors, your grade
is based on just the final examand in part attendance, there
was homework, but it wasn'tnecessarily being calculated
into your grade.
And at least in undergrad, thedifference was where you're
doing homework, you're gettingsmall quizzes.
So you get a good sense of yourprogress, but really you don't
(16:08):
find out sometimes with certainprofessors how you're doing in
the course until you get yourfinal exam.
That, that was something that Ididn't realize in the first
year.
But then even things likeunderstanding there isn't just
the bar exam that you need to beable to get your license in New
York.
There's the NPRE, the NYLE andso even figuring that out when
(16:30):
it's like you thought oh, theone big thing is the bar exam,
but there's also this that youneed to be able to get your
license.
Miguel Sanchez (16:39):
to those of you who are listening and are
wondering about these exams.
I'm going to leave links on theshow notes to that will take you
to the New York State Board ofExaminers so you can learn more
about these exams and whythey're important.
So we finished one L year, youfinish your first year of law
school, you go into your secondyear, did your interest change?
(17:02):
You came in thinking aboutimmigration law, did that
interest remain?
I know for many students they'lloften realize, okay, I didn't
think this area of law that Iwas interested in is what I
thought it was.
Did that change that for you?
And if it didn't, what did youdo in your second and third year
to harness that interest or todevelop skills for that
(17:23):
interest?
Jonathan Campozano (17:24):
So I was lucky enough to be allowed to
participate in the immigrationclinic.
As a second year student,generally the three Ls get
priority because they're ontheir way out.
But luckily professor Mertonpicked me and allowed me to do
the clinic in my second year andthen my third year.
But what I, before we jump topast the first year something
(17:49):
that and your question remindedme, I was working for two hours
in between classes.
So the schedule was set up.
where you have a 9:00 AM classand like a1 or 2:00 PM class.
and I was going to animmigration law firm in between
looking back now, I probablyshouldn't have done that to be
able to focus on my studies.
that's just how invested I wasin wanting to pursue a career in
(18:13):
immigration law.
And I think that in part waswhat allowed Professor Merton to
feel comfortable enough to allowme to join the clinic as a
second year student.
So that interest remainedthroughout it was an amazing
experience.
Learned a lot And, probably the,the, there's a, there's a saying
(18:34):
that, The first year of lawschool is the hardest year.
The second year is the busiestyear and the third year, you
Miguel Sanchez (18:44):
That is true.
And having worked in the clinicWorking for faculty and working
with law students.
I do recall a lot of three Lsjust wanting to leave, but I'm
not gonna go into detail thispoint.
Now you are in the immigrationclinic, you are working under
professor Vanessa Merton.
How was it working withprofessor Merton?
(19:05):
How was she like a mentor?
How did she help you in pursuingyour interest for immigration
law?
Jonathan Campozano (19:12):
So when I was either interviewing for the
clinic or when I was.
When I joined the clinic, therewas a brief conversation with
Professor Merton where shewanted to understand your
weaknesses, your strengths, whatdo you want to improve?
And I always had a fear ofpublic speaking, and I shared
(19:34):
that with her.
Little did I know when I sharedthat with her every time we had
seminar.
she would go out of her way tocall on me every single class,
even for the smallest thing,even if she knew the answer or
someone else already answeredsome way, somehow she would find
a way me, not realizing that wasso that I can practice speaking
(19:58):
before a group.
Professor Merton called on me somuch that I got a gift or I
received a gift during a giftexchange during the holidays in
my first year.
And it a, It's this ball righthere.
It has a picture.
It's not that clear, but it's apicture of Vanessa Press Merton.
And it says there, Jonathan witha question mark.
That's how much she would callon me during class.
(20:21):
She somehow was going in amillion directions, but found
the time to focus on you, andthat's what she was able to do
for me.
She was invested.
In my growth, not just as anattorney, but as a person always
engaging and thoughtful andprovoking conversation.
(20:42):
Whether it was at in the morningor early, late at night, past
midnight sometimes but she wouldalways find a way to, to be
there for you to be there, toshow the way of how to be a
great immigration attorney.
Miguel Sanchez (21:01):
What was your most memorable?
experience As a student internin the immigration clinic.
Jonathan Campozano (21:09):
Definitely a couple things.
Definitely all the times wheresome way, somehow Professor
Merton would be there until verylate at night.
and despite having done so muchwork, you just end up having a
conversation about anything,whether it was politics, whether
it was family whether it wasschoolwork or anything.
(21:34):
Those random moments that Ican't even, I can't remember
specifically, but just, I justremember always being able to
have a conversation with her atthe clinic.
But definitely the the tripsthat we took to Dilley, Texas.
That was definitely one of themost memorable experiences where
we went to close to the Texasborder and volunteered at a
(21:57):
detention center where we helpedwomen and children prepare for.
their credible fear interviews,so they, they're being
interviewed by asylum officersabout the reasons for why they
entered the United States.
And if they passed theinterview, they could continue
their process in trying topursue asylum here in the United
States.
And those were very gruelingdays, 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM Where
(22:20):
we and I think it was maybe 45minutes increments where we were
able to interview and preparethe woman and children.
And we did that for, we werethere for about a week, but it
was Monday through Friday.
And so that was an experiencemade possible by Professor
Merton.
And never forget the feeling,especially cause I had the
(22:43):
opportunity to go three times,but definitely the feeling after
the first time where I thinkmost, if not everyone in the
group really felt life put intoperspective and how lucky we are
sometimes and we don't
Miguel Sanchez (22:59):
And how did you make the connection to finding
your first job?
Was that instrumental in gettingyour first job?
How did it help the process?
Jonathan Campozano (23:10):
It's one thing when you're here in New
York and you meet with potentialclients or with your clients,
and there maybe three months,six months, maybe a year removed
from whatever they may have beenfleeing.
but at the border the woman andchildren may have suffered
before coming to the detentioncenter could have happened.
(23:31):
or a couple of weeks prior.
And so the detail is much moreintense because the memories are
much more vivid.
It definitely renewed myinterest or deepened my interest
in wanting to become animmigration attorney.
That's me to pursue a fellowshipwith Immigrant Justice Corps
(23:51):
that Professor Merton.
Really was a driving force inhelping me get that fellowship.
And so, yeah, that, thatexperience definitely, like I
said, deepened my interest inbecoming an immigration attorney
and wanting to help some of themost vulnerable.
Miguel Sanchez (24:10):
So for first generation law students it's the
preparing for law school that'snew.
And that's a challenge justpreparing for law school.
Then there's the actual lawschool Part, going to class, the
cold calling that you mentioned,outlining that in and of itself
presents challenges for firstgeneration law students.
(24:33):
And now you are leaving lawschool, you're graduating.
What are some of the thingsthat, looking back, you, you
want to advise first generationstudents as there.
preparing for their career?
Whether it's interview tips,networking, what are some things
that first generation lawstudents should know?
Jonathan Campozano (24:54):
I would say the professors want to help you
more than you think.
You see them, especially whenyou're fresh into law schools,
almost these big intimidatingfigures.
When in reality, when They'rethere.
And especially teaching brandnew students because they want
to.
make an impact on these newstudents who are pursuing a law
(25:17):
degree.
And I I would say thatdefinitely, I wish I would've
approached my professors more inthose moments of doubt and
insecurity.
But even before getting to lawschool, I wish I would have
reached out to current studentsat the law schools.
(25:37):
I wish I would've.
Attended more tours and speak toother law schools.
I wish I would've spoken tomembers of the Lawa at the law
school to get their feedback.
And I eventually did.
I would've done that beforegoing into law school,
especially since I didn't haveanyone to speak with.
(25:59):
about that experience.
I did know a couple of attorneysfrom the internships, their law
school experience was many yearsago and different from what was
happening at the time Iattended.
they
Miguel Sanchez (26:16):
So if you're thinking about applying to law
school.
As Jonathan said, connect withstudents, connect with faculty.
When I see a student who hasquestions, when I see a
prospective student who hasquestions about a program or a
career, I do my best to connectthem with The community, because
(26:36):
they can really as Jonathansaid, a real time, so to speak,
real time advice because they'rein law school.
I see that law school can be atransformative experience.
how would you say going to lawschool transform your life?
Jonathan Campozano (26:55):
I think in my day-to-day life, sometimes
it's difficult to switch mybrain from lawyer mode and turn
it off and not be so analytical.
in my personal life, sometimes.
I'll a apply, say, in aconversation, if something was
(27:15):
omitted, Oh then the implicationmust be that they meant this.
where it, They didn't say it.
So then it's not what they said,but lawyer mode takes my brain
into that, especially in mypersonal life.
I would say it's J just changingme personally.
I think my most cherished mecherished memories are.
(27:40):
The time that I spent, and Imentioned earlier Lawa, but I
didn't explain what it was.
It was, it's the Latin AmericanLaw Students Association at the
law school's, a student group.
And just The time that I spentwith them and being able to
spend time, share moments with.
Students of similar backgroundsnot just ethnically, but also
(28:01):
personally, they also didn'thave family members who went to
law school.
And just dealing with this withsimilar struggles.
So that, that was definitely,and I would recommend if you are
going to law school search forstudent groups that that align
with your experience and see howyou can can interact with others
because if you don't law schoolcan sometimes be lonely and it's
(28:24):
very stressful at times.
And so interacting with others,even if you don't
Miguel Sanchez (28:30):
before we close, is there anything that we
haven't discussed any tips youwanna leave for the audience
today?
Jonathan Campozano (28:40):
when I for the bar exam they set a schedule
nine to five.
I was a morning person.
So I would set it earlier.
But my piece of advice, if forthe day you get to the bar exam
is during your lunch break orthe breaks that you give
yourself.
pick a sitcom Because theepisodes are short.
(29:03):
And so if you give yourself 40minutes to an hour, you can get
two to three episodes and itfeel like you're watching a lot.
And so if you noticed Dwightover my shoulder, the show that
I watched during the bar examwas The Office.
And so that definitely helped metrick me mentally to feel like I
was giving myself a lot of freetime when I actually was just
giving myself the normal amount.
(29:23):
of time.
Miguel Sanchez (29:26):
So I guess we can say the office led you to
your in an office.
Jonathan, thank you for sharingyour story with us.
Thank you for your time.
And for all of you catch thenext episode, make sure to
subscribe.
Thank you for being here,Jonathan.
Jonathan Campozano (29:42):
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!