April 11, 2025 • 34 mins
Welcome to First Gen 101, the podcast where first-generation graduates share their stories and career tips. In this episode, host Miguel Sanchez interviews John Manna, who shares his fascinating journey from being a performing musician to graduating from law school. John elaborates on his academic interests, the challenges of law school, the importance of networking, and how his passion for music has complemented his legal studies. He also discusses practical career advice for aspiring lawyers and the value of a JD in various career paths. Don't miss this motivational episode packed with insights and inspiration!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Miguel Sanchez (00:10):
Welcome to First Gen 1 0 1, the podcast
where first generation graduatesshare their stories and career
tips.
I'm your host, Miguel Sanchez.
In this episode, John Mannashares his remarkable journey
from life as a performingmusician to graduating from law
school.
Whether you're exploring acareer pivot or need
(00:30):
inspiration, John's story willmotivate you to keep pushing
forward.
Hello everyone.
And welcome back to anotherepisode of the first gen 1 0 1
podcast.
Today we have John Manna.
John, thank you for being heretoday.
(00:50):
John, I mentioned this a fewminutes ago before we went live.
And one of the things thatreally excited me about this
session is that you are also amusician.
Not only did you go to lawschool as a first gen student,
but you're a musician.
And it's just really a joy tosee someone very passionate, not
(01:10):
only about their education, butalso about music.
you play mainly guitar from whatI understand.
And I know you are also asongwriter.
Before we go into that, why didyou decide to go to law school?
Go from music to then lawschool.
How did that happen?
John Manna (01:28):
Yeah, I had been performing and writing and
recording music for for most ofmy life, starting at a
relatively young age.
And for a while, that was what Iwould've said that I wanted to
do.
I guess for what it's worthgoing through my life high
school and undergrad, I wasalways able to relatively
balance my, Musical interestswith whatever I was doing full I
(01:51):
ended up going to undergrad incriminal justice.
I went to, I actually, I went toJustice community college for
two years after high school andmajored in criminal justice.
And then I ended up transferringto SUNY Newpaltz after two years
at DCC, after getting myassociates and there, I majored
in sociology with concentrationin criminology.
(02:11):
So I was always.
Interested academically in themore criminal justice and route
whereas outside of school I hada very active creative as well.
There's the whole stereotypicalstarting artist.
(02:35):
There, There's a lot of merit tothat and I have a lot of respect
for people who have those sortsof creative ambitions and I go
all in on that.
And for whatever reason thatjust didn't really feel like
that was what I should be doing.
It didn't, I didn't really feellike that life was for me.
People do it.
For for some, maybe it's abigger risk than others and
(02:57):
maybe they get some success outof it.
Maybe people who go all in onmusic.
Because they're putting all oftheir eggs in one basket,
they're able to put more workinto it.
And maybe that ends up payingoff for some of them.
something that I was thinkingabout a something interested in
passion?
Potentially make my chancesbetter and would they pay off in
(03:18):
the long run?
And at the end of the day, Ijust didn't really feel like
that was something that I wantedto do.
I was still fortunately able todo what I wanted to do and get a
lot of stuff done with mymusical interests alongside me
going to school and working andall of that.
So I was thinking okay, like, Idon't really think going all in
on music is right I end myundergrad experience.
(03:42):
with what I had majored in thething is too, with me, a lot of
my friends and a lot of thepeople that I was spending most
of the time with most of my timewith, they were all also
musicians.
So I was going off on my own, orat least it felt like I was in a
lot of, in a lot of ways.
Wanting to continue my educationin it really felt like being, I
(04:03):
was a first gen bachelor's gradas well, and it really did feel
like uncharted territory.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing when I was picking majors.
I wasn't really, I would pick amajor and then, af I would pick
a major.
It almost felt to get that outof the way.
And then afterwards I would lookup what are potential jobs that
I could do with this.
And it was towards the end of mytime in undergrad when I started
(04:23):
thinking to myself, okay I'minterested in law academically,
but I am a musician and I alsofeel like that's a big part of
my identity.
And I was thinking what could Ido?
Outside of that what could I dothat maybe incorporates a little
bit of both?
And I ended up at the time inundergrad, coming to the
conclusion that I I thought thatI was that I wanted to go and
(04:50):
combine both of those passionsin my life and go for
entertainment law.
And I remember talking to one ofmy professors at and pitching
that idea to him.
And he said he thought that wasan excellent idea.
Some people, maybe they thinkabout wanting to go to law
school their entire lives.
And that's and that could be avery good thing for some people.
In my case, it was the very lastsemester of undergrad, and it
(05:10):
was in some cases, even thesummer after undergrad was when
I finally made the decision thatI wanted to go to law school and
ended up studying for the LSAT,signing up for the LSAT later
that following year.
Because I didn't make decisionlaw school until my semester of
undergrad, It's not like I wasset up to start law school the
following year.
(05:31):
take a year off, figure out whateven the LSAT was, figure out
what law schools werepotentially good options.
And then ended up taking theyear to study for the LSAT,
which was another thing, anotherthing I was doing relatively
which it didn't really feel likeI had a lot of people to go do,
to ask for questions about LSATprep and all of that and what I
should really be expecting, howvaluable of a score should I be
(05:53):
trying to go for how what arethe best ways to study.
Some of that was on me.
I wasn't very Using theresources I had and going on the
internet.
So like I was just doing it onmy own and yeah ended up taking
the next year to study for theLSATs.
I got a relatively average scoreon the LSAT the first time I
could have taken it again andthat's something that I would
(06:15):
think about later too as well.
Should I have taken it again?
Should I have gotten a tutor?
I really only Studied mostly bymyself just in my local library
in my hometown Did some researchafter that, ended up applying to
a few schools and got into PaceLaw School, which at the time I
was living in Fishkill, NewYork.
So that was about 50 minutes toan hour from Pace in White
(06:35):
Plains.
That was also towards thebeginning of the pandemic at the
time.
So I knew that at least in thebeginning of my law school
career, it Yeah, then I endedup, fortunately getting into
PACE and accepted for thefollowing year.
So I had a gap year in betweenfinishing undergrad and law
(06:57):
school.
But honestly, I guess to kind ofpinpoint, answer your question,
it was just, I didn't, there wasnever a point in my life where I
thought I wanted to be a lawyer.
Even I decided I wanted to go tolaw school, one thing I would
always hear people talk aboutis, okay, a law degree is useful
even if you're not practicinglaw.
And I see that a lot now, like alot of my colleagues that I have
(07:18):
now, having graduated, a lot ofthem are very talented in what
they're doing.
They're not all practicingattorneys.
Some of them get into jobs withcorporations or companies where
their law degree is still a veryvaluable asset to their skillset
Depending on what you on whatyour interests are, that can
potentially be a valuable andworthwhile route to take for
some people.
(07:38):
So that was another thing I wasthinking when I was gonna law
school is okay.
It seems like the way ofthinking that it seems that you
get from law school and a lot ofthe analytical reasoning skills
and the way to issue spot, itseems like those sorts of skills
are very valuable no matter whatyou do.
So it I also have my musicalpassions that I can continue
(08:01):
that feels like I can continueregardless lemme just keep my
education going Lemme get a lawdegree that it seems like maybe
i'll figure out I have otherinterests in this field that I
maybe didn't know were there atfirst but either way, it seems
like it'll be a worthwhileexperience and it seems Skillset
and experiences that could helpme in my career in ways that
maybe I'm not to see
Miguel Sanchez (08:24):
One of the things that jumps at me, and
this is something that we tellprospective students, and that
is the JD is going to give you,as you mentioned, the skills and
the knowledge to apply that indifferent career paths.
Whether it's litigation orin-house counsel, or other
(08:46):
careers, having that JD is gonnagive you those opportunities.
In fact I keep up with alumni onLinkedIn and I can tell you that
every other week someone haschanged jobs gone somewhere else
because partly you're able to dothat with a JD.
So it just gives you moreversatility.
And so during that gap year.
(09:08):
What did you do besidespreparing for the LSAT?
Did you have a law related job?
What were you doing in that, inthat year?
John Manna (09:16):
So when I was finishing up undergrad actually
not law related at all.
I was working at a pizzeria formy entirety of the time in
undergrad.
I was working part-time at apizzeria, I also worked briefly
for a brewery at one point thatwas starting in my summer after
finishing undergrad.
And then, I didn't really havethat much experience working in
(09:40):
the legal industry before lawschool.
I really didn't.
Interned at a local courthouseduring one of my final semesters
of undergrad, But, I was inundergrad, I wasn't in law
school at that point, so aninternship at the courthouse
what that really meant was I wasjust observing local small
claims, and honestly and trafficticket proceeding.
(10:04):
It wasn't really something whereI was, Getting much intellectual
legal work experience and Ithink some of that probably came
from me being a first gen or aperspective first gen law
student at that point maybe Iwas telling someone else who
wanted to go to law school andwas thinking about studying for
(10:26):
the LSAT, maybe I would suggestlooking for some sort of
courthouse work or law firm workwhether it's part-time or just
even as an unpaid intern to getsome experience if they're able
to do that.
And I do think that's somethingthat could be valuable.
In my case, I really didn't getmuch experience like that before
law school.
I, during while I was studyingfor the LSATs I studied mostly
(10:49):
during the day again at, Thelocal library Monday through
Friday.
But aside from that, I wasworking at a brewery on
weekends.
And I also worked seasonally atthe Michael at Michael Kors
actually for that winter season.
So I was doing those two thingsand I would tell people at those
jobs about how I was studyingfor the LSAT.
And they were all very excitedfor me on the journey that I was
(11:13):
I didn't really get much legalexperience.
I didn't really have a fullygrasp what I was really getting
into at that point I wasstudying for the LSAT and that
was getting me into theheadspace for what it's worth,
but as I'm sure, the LSATitself, Doesn't really test
substantively on really anythinghaving to do with law.
It's more of a standardized testthat has to do with your,
critical thinking and readingcomprehension.
(11:34):
But at the time it felt like aHail Mary with me with me
studying for the LSAT.
I hadn't really had any realexperience in the legal field
aside from, I took theoccasional Law class in in
undergrad.
And actually when I was at SUNYNew Paltz, I took criminal law,
which I didn't realize it at thetime, but that professor who
(11:56):
taught me criminal law at SUNYNewpaltz for undergrad actually
ran it like a traditional lawschool class.
Like they did the cold callingjust holding up the attendance
sheet, calling on a random namefrom the very beginning of the
class.
We were reading cases, and atthe time, I was thinking, this
guy's out of his mind.
Why is who conducts in classlike this?
Little did I know that reallyhave that much actual legal
(12:19):
field experience prior to lawschool.
And by the time I took the LSAT,it was that February during my
gap year.
And then March that followingMarch, 2020, that was when that
was when the COVID pandemicreally started.
And that was when at that pointthere was the stay at home
policy.
So there was, I going into lawschool, I A of me figuring out
(12:42):
what attorneys do and what theactual legal profession requires
that came with actually gettinginto law school and now.
Miguel Sanchez (12:51):
In adding to that point of not having much
exposure And this is justgeneral advice to prospective
law students.
If you can, as John said, havethat law related job, if you
decide to take the gap year,what I think what it really does
is put you in a place where youcan understand The legal
(13:14):
culture, just like medicine andother fields, there's a culture,
there's a way of doing things.
So think about having that legaljob so you can understand the
culture that's in the legalspace.
So you're taking the LSAT.
we're now have to be home for arelatively long time and then
you start law school and it's anunusual time because if I recall
(13:37):
properly at the time classeswere set up in this schedule
where you didn't go to classevery day there was some sort of
pattern that to be honest Idon't remember What was the most
challenging aspect of startinglaw school?
John Manna (13:51):
I remember first hearing what the term big law
meant or what the term big lawwas probably a few weeks into my
first semester.
I didn't really know very muchabout What sizes and law firms
really meant, what it reallytook to get to specific law
(14:12):
firms versus others, what thoselaw firms really looked at.
I had no idea going into lawschool that I.
by going to a specific lawschool or by not going to a
certain law school, that alonewas arguably making your journey
or your prospects easier orharder than potentially others.
(14:33):
That was something that was.
Very new to me.
Also the value in the potentialvalue, depending on what your
goals are in class rank, thatwas something that was also very
new to me.
I couldn't say that duringundergrad I was a as invested of
(14:54):
a student, frankly, I wouldn'thave said that I was a very
passionate student in undergrad.
And that was because.
I was in part because I didn'treally know what I was doing at
the time.
I hadn't really, I was thinkingmuch more short term.
I hadn't really been thinking asmuch about my long term goals.
So because of that, class rankwasn't really something that I
ever really thought about inundergrad.
(15:14):
And I was suddenly in lawschool, that was something that
a lot of people were talkingabout.
The curve I hadn't All of yourstudy habits and how you looked
at finals and how you thoughtabout this semester in your
first year specifically and Idon't really remember hearing
(15:36):
about that until orientation ormaybe shortly after I got the
Pace.
And that wasn't really somethingthat kind of clicked for me of
what that really entailed forfor your finals in law school
until that were relativelysurprising.
And it did make it somewhatintimidating at times.
One thing that you'll hear allthe time in law school for
(15:58):
various reasons is impostersyndrome.
That was something that was thephrase that Certainly became
part of my regular vocabularygoing into law school was
feeling like I you know, whenyou're when you go into law
school when you start somethingthat's even if you do have
(16:20):
experience or even if people whohave done it before, it's still
very new.
You're still getting thrust intoa whole new group of people
doing work that You've reallyhad to do before again, even if
you've worked in a law firm Mostpeople will tell you that the
work that attorneys do is verydifferent than what you actually
do in law school so just havingto do that sort of dense case
(16:42):
reading it, it's a very newexperience even for people who
Do know people or even if you'vedone the research and I've heard
about what it's like, it's stillsomething that's really new for
you once you're doing it.
And everyone remembers, I think,and everyone probably had, most
people probably have thisexperience at the beginning of
law school.
As you start hearing about whatother people are doing, maybe a
few weeks into your firstsemester, you start hearing, oh,
(17:04):
so and so's doing this manypractice problems or so and so
has is already starting tooutline.
And that's something where ifyou know nothing about law
school, some of that could be ahelpful wake up call of oh,
maybe I should start thinkingabout.
Maybe there is something that Ishould take from what this other
person is doing.
But one thing that I've that Ilearned in law school not even
(17:26):
having to do substantively withlaw is the importance of
trusting your own instincts.
There.
There are always, There areusually things that you can get
from other people that arehelpful.
But at the end of the day, youhave to you have trust that you
know what's best you, becauseyou've point where in law school
You have trust that you havewhat it through And doesn't mean
(17:50):
You should completely ignorewhat other people are doing but
you also shouldn't let thatstress you out at the same time
you it's helpful to get adviceand potentially borrow study
habits and tactics from otherpeople.
But you have to, at the end ofthe day, always trust what
you're doing too, and trust thatYou know what's best for you
Miguel Sanchez (18:07):
So in this process of feeling some sort of
this imposter syndrome that youdescribed, how did there, at any
point, did you communicate thatto your family?
How was Your relationship withyour family in relation to law
school.
Did you talk to them about thisregularly?
Was this something that you keptto yourself?
(18:27):
How was that dynamic?
John Manna (18:29):
Interesting question.
I think that one, one thing thatmade those feelings of imposter
syndrome, I would saycomplicated or difficult to
really solve or deal with was inpart the fact that I was at the
time I was commuting to lawschool from Fishkill.
It was hybrid.
So I was going in person two,maybe three times a week at
(18:51):
most.
And then the rest of the timewas remote.
And, relatively.
soon into law school.
I did start fortunately makingfriends at my class, but because
of it being hybrid because of mecommuting, it did really feel
like I wasn't fully inculcatedin the law school culture at
that point.
that's something that I thinkended up really.
(19:13):
It served in my favor reallywell once I started getting more
involved in the community of lawschool, because then Once you
start getting connecting withpeople and you're able to vent
those sorts of feelings that youhave, you'll find that a lot of
people, like one of the, one ofthe solutions and one of thees
for that is hearing that a lotof people feel the exact same
(19:33):
way as you.
And having those sorts of peoplethat you can just vent to of
here's how I'm feeling.
Is this normal?
Here's what I'm doing.
Is this normal or should I bedoing more?
And then having someone tell youit's okay.
Everyone feels like that.
Don't let that freak you out.
What, what these other peopleare doing you're doing just
fine.
Trust me.
Here's what I did.
And it works just well for meand you're already doing better,
(19:53):
having those sorts ofconnections that you can really
vent to and have them vent toyou as well, whether it's in
your class, whether they'reupperclassmen who become your
mentors, I think that'ssomething that.
I Ended up being very helpfulto, to get to that point.
However, again, in the beginningof my one L year it took a
little bit for me to get to thatpoint, having been in a class
(20:14):
that was hybrid and commutingabout an hour and still feeling
like I wasn't really, it took alittle bit for the culture of
law school kind of cometogether,
Miguel Sanchez (20:24):
Part of the law school process, I think also,
and this is from feedback I hearfrom other students, alumni, I.
is building thatself-confidence, As you
mentioned, trust your your ownprocess, your own way of doing
things.
So building thatself-confidence.
how did you think, how do youthink being a musician helped
(20:45):
you with that self-confidence?
Do you think you were able tomaybe pick it up faster because
You're used to going up in frontof people and performing and
sometimes you're at rooms whereyou play, maybe you thought you,
you play your best and nobodyclaps.
Do you think that had some, insome way help you get through
(21:05):
that process of buildingself-confidence in law school?
John Manna (21:10):
that wasn't necessarily something that I was
always thinking about, and howthose two kind of work in tandem
together, but I think thatcertainly played a role in my
overall confidence and myself-assurance in the sense that
you're absolutely right.
When you're a musician and orany type of artist and you are
putting yourself out there,whether you're performing live,
(21:31):
whether you're promoting songsor anything that you've written
or anything that you've donethere has to be a, Of not caring
what people think and you haveto either the easy way or the
hard way develop a relativelydoing pretty well, and even if
your, a lot of your work seemsto be you still will always have
(21:54):
that sort of apprehension stillhave to build up for things like
that.
And I think that, again, even ifI wasn't think of consciously,
that if not in my ability to dothe work, but also in just the
(22:15):
way I, Conducted myself with mycolleagues and wasn't really
afraid generally to introducemyself to people and to smile
and say good morning and thingsthat seem small, but I think can
play a big role in improvingyour law school experience.
that certainly played a big rolein in my con, in my confidence
and also just having an outletlaw.
(22:37):
It's very.
It.
works your logical andreasonable and rational side of
your brain.
And then In a lot of ways, musicseems to work the exact opposite
of your brain.
Having that sort of balance atthe end of the day, when I could
go home and, try to write a songor just play guitar and just as
an outlet, like having that sortof balance, I think.
(23:00):
Kept me sane and I, a lot ofpeople have something like that
for them, whether it's music orit's sports or exercise or sort
of activity it helps you not getas much tunnel
Miguel Sanchez (23:16):
you were thinking about entertainment
law.
Did you continue that path?
What changed and tell us aboutwhat you do now?
I.
John Manna (23:27):
end up continuing actually that path for
entertainment law That was likeI said the original catalyst
that made me interested in lawschool.
And obviously your first year oflaw school, you take all of the
core or most of the core barclasses.
You don't have much say in whatclasses you take your first
year.
Your second year is the yearwhere you start to have much
(23:50):
more freedom.
There's still some requirements,but for the most part, you have
freedom in what you decide totake in law school.
And I did end up seeing thatentertainment Law was a class,
fortunately, that Pace, thatpays offered.
I took that my first, second, myfirst two l semester, I took
Entertainment Law.
And I did end up finding itfairly interesting.
(24:15):
It was, it actually is fairlymusician focused class, too,
which at, which at the time Idid I did appreciate.
However, I think I started tolearn more about what
entertainment law entailed and Istarted seeing that as easy of a
process to simply, for example,apply for an entertainment law
firm.
(24:35):
It seemed like a lot of it a lotof it seemed to be more solo
practitioners.
It seemed like it was verycompetitive, especially if you
wanted to, for example, go forAn in-house counsel position at
a record label, I ended upworking my summer and went out
at the Legal Aid Society of SanDiego which I actually got
through the Pace public interestlaw affair.
(24:59):
And then I ended up reallyenjoying my time working for
Legal Aid in San Diego thatsummer.
I think.
That was when I started feelinglike more doors were opening and
I started feeling okay I know Ioriginally wanted to do
entertainment law but now Iactually did this other legal
job that had nothing to do withentertainment and I Actually
(25:19):
really enjoyed it and I feltlike I got a lot of meaning out
of this other job Into my secondyear of law school I was still
interested and open toentertainment law But I felt
like my horizons were startingto broaden and I started feeling
okay this is starting to not,this is starting to feel less
like something I'm doing just tosee what happens.
And it's starting to feel like Iactually can start to build
(25:40):
other interests in the legalfield that I didn't think that I
didn't to my second year of lawschool, I started also getting
involved with the Pace LawAdvocacy Program.
I applied.
and tried out for moot court atthe time during my summer of one
oh for the upcoming two L year.
And I ended up fortunatelygetting put on the Wechsler
(26:04):
First Amendment moot for thatfirst fall Fortunately, I got
put on a team with people that Iwas that I was friendly with for
my first year of law school.
And I ended up having a greatexperience with that as well.
We fortunately with the help ofmy colleagues, we advanced to
Octo finals in my firstcompetition.
(26:25):
So I think those sorts ofexperiences.
Also that along with my jobafter my, after one L started
making me feel like, okay, me.
what I I was still going intothe studio on weekends I was in
(26:47):
some cases working on musicvideos on weekends and I would
still So like a, another bigthing is I didn't feel like I
needed to necessarily evencombine law and music at that
point I was thinking like okayi'm still doing music like i'm
still playing out when I can i'mstill putting out music
relatively regularly I'm stillable to fortunately find time to
go into the studio and to workon these projects.
(27:08):
So that's not going anywhere andI'm still, and I'm still gonna
be able to do that no matterwhat.
So let's, maybe let's see whatthe rest of the legal field has
to offer.
And I started feeling like I wastaking more chances and trying
more in a way that I wasenjoying more than I expected.
And.
In a way that I started gettingmore and more excited for as
(27:30):
going into my third year of lawschool.
and this is part of the reasonwhy I think that building a
network is one of the bestthings that you could do in law
school because it'll help youwith your sense of purpose and
feeling like you belong But thenIt also comes in handy in ways
you might not be thinking atfirst.
I got my first.
(27:51):
After law school clerking for ajudge in Bergen County Superior
Court for in family law, it wasa one year position.
I got that job from someone thatI had met in law school who she
had graduated a year prior tome.
And she had said Hey, we havesome judges in Bergen County
that are looking for law clerksand This was I think this was
relatively, this wasn't too latein my three L year to the point
(28:13):
where I hadn't been reallysitting down and sending out
applications that, that much yetat that point.
So I was very open-minded.
Ended up getting an interviewand I was thinking, okay I don't
know exactly I could havecertain options, but this sort
of one year, this one yearclerkship experience after law
school seems like a great way toget good experience and to get
(28:36):
my foot in the door and see if Iif I like family law too and
see, like, that's something Ihaven't really tried yet and I
haven't really done very muchwith.
In law school yet.
So, it that was a goodopportunity for me to start my
legal career.
I'd heard about the value thatclerkships can offer in working
with the judiciary and gettingthat sort of perspective on
things.
It seemed like to me, that was agood opportunity to start with
(28:57):
and a good way to get someexperience.
And that was an opportunity thatI got in very large part, just
from meeting people in lawschool and from networking and
I.
very much so in helping me inhelping me get my job with the
(29:18):
clerkship after law school.
And then also it helped with methe I'm at law firm in the
financial district in now.
Miguel Sanchez (29:25):
Dean Anderson who is the Dean of Haub Law, he
generally starts his welcomeaddress to the incoming
students, the new class eachfall.
I.
more or less, he starts off bysaying that The school, your
(29:47):
class is also your network asyou said, John, it's not just
having that network in a passiveway, but you have to be
intentional about making thoseconnections in law school and
definitely after law school,because they will help you and
you should all also be helpingothers along the way.
And John, as we are coming tothe end, I wanna ask you two
(30:09):
last questions.
after you've been through thisprocess, If you could talk to
yourself back as a incoming oneL student, what would you say to
yourself?
John Manna (30:19):
With this sort of question is the, I'm happy with
the path That I've gone on andI'm happy with the choices that
I've made.
So if I was talking to myselfprior to my one L year, I
wouldn't really want to tellmyself anything that would very
much change any of the choicesthat I've made the good ones and
the bad ones too.
I've, where I've ended I'mhesitant myself make anything go
(30:44):
differently because I'm gratefulfor how things have been turning
out, but I think that I wouldwanna reassure myself that I'm
on a good path for me look backnow and I think wow, at the time
when I decided to sign up forthe LSAT at that point in my
life, I never fully understoodor imagined the opportunities,
(31:05):
the experiences, the people thatI would've meet, some of my best
friends that I'm that I stilltalk to and that I will probably
continue to talk to to this dayand onward from law school, from
jobs those sorts of experiences.
I, I would wanna reassure myselfthat I very much advanced my
personal and my professionallife.
(31:25):
In ways that I never thoughtpossible and I wouldn't want to
do anything different even themistakes and even the maybe the
classes I shouldn't have takenand even the Things like that,
but I would so I wouldn't wannatell myself anything that would
change that but I would wannamake sure that I reassured
myself that things were gonnawork out and that and that I was
in for a great worthwhilejourney
Miguel Sanchez (31:48):
It does sound like your law school experience
has been transformative.
the last question I have, John,is you are a songwriter.
If you could write a song aboutlaw school, about your law
school experience?
What would you title it?
John Manna (32:05):
what's funny is I have written a song.
I can't say it was about.
Law school in general, but Imentioned I worked for legal aid
society in san diego And I wasat that point in my life.
I'd never been to san diego.
I'd never i'd never been to thatcity I didn't know anyone in
that city So it felt like I wastaking a leap of faith like i'm
(32:26):
gonna go do this public interestjob for a summer San Diego.
san diego.
I don't know anyone there.
What am I doing out there?
I'm gonna drive there am I outof my mind?
So I remember thinking like thatwas I'm gonna I had never even,
I commuted to undergrad too.
Like I never really even left myfamily house at that point.
So it felt like I was taking ahuge leap of faith.
And I remember I wrote a song atthat point, which actually I
(32:49):
wrote that song in my one Lyear.
And it's, I actually recentlywas in the studio recording it?
so it should actually bepotentially coming out sometime
in 2025, hopefully.
It's called 99 cent dream.
And I wrote that kind of aboutjust feeling like I was taking a
step.
And Feeling okay, there's nobetter time to just take a
chance like this.
And who knows what's gonnahappen.
(33:11):
Maybe it is maybe it is weird ofme to be feeling like I should
that things like this will workout, but I'm just gonna take
this chance and see whathappens.
What do I have to lose?
Now is the, there's not gonna bea more convenient time to get
these sorts of experiences.
That, that is an example of asong that I did write in part
about a transformativeexperience that I was going
through in law school.
Miguel Sanchez (33:35):
Are we looking out for it and for our listeners
John, how if someone wants tolisten to your work how should
people connect with you, whatyour social media pages,
websites?
How would you like to pointpeople to you?
John Manna (33:49):
It's funny in my job and everything.
I go as on Spotify and Applemusic and my website, Johnny
manna.com, but that'sJ-O-H-N-N-Y-M-A-N-N-A, and
that's on all the streamingservices and that's my website
as well.
And that's also my handle onInstagram, you could also find
(34:11):
me on Instagram by justsearching John Manna as well.
But if you type in either JohnManna or Johnny Manna into
Google, you most you.
Miguel Sanchez (34:20):
That's great.
And we'll definitely add thoseto our show notes and we'll also
have them on the screen.
You will see them on the bottomof the screen as John mentioned.
So John, thank you very much forspending your time with us for
the rest.
Be on the lookout for our nextepisode.
Thank you for tuning in.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoy the episode.
(34:40):
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Don't forget to leave a review.
Until next time.
Welcome to First Gen 1 0 1, the podcast
where first generation graduatesshare their stories and career
tips.
I'm your host, Miguel Sanchez.
In this episode, John Mannashares his remarkable journey
from life as a performingmusician to graduating from law
school.
Whether you're exploring acareer pivot or need
(00:30):
inspiration, John's story willmotivate you to keep pushing
forward.
Hello everyone.
And welcome back to anotherepisode of the first gen 1 0 1
podcast.
Today we have John Manna.
John, thank you for being heretoday.
(00:50):
John, I mentioned this a fewminutes ago before we went live.
And one of the things thatreally excited me about this
session is that you are also amusician.
Not only did you go to lawschool as a first gen student,
but you're a musician.
And it's just really a joy tosee someone very passionate, not
(01:10):
only about their education, butalso about music.
you play mainly guitar from whatI understand.
And I know you are also asongwriter.
Before we go into that, why didyou decide to go to law school?
Go from music to then lawschool.
How did that happen?
John Manna (01:28):
Yeah, I had been performing and writing and
recording music for for most ofmy life, starting at a
relatively young age.
And for a while, that was what Iwould've said that I wanted to
do.
I guess for what it's worthgoing through my life high
school and undergrad, I wasalways able to relatively
balance my, Musical interestswith whatever I was doing full I
(01:51):
ended up going to undergrad incriminal justice.
I went to, I actually, I went toJustice community college for
two years after high school andmajored in criminal justice.
And then I ended up transferringto SUNY Newpaltz after two years
at DCC, after getting myassociates and there, I majored
in sociology with concentrationin criminology.
(02:11):
So I was always.
Interested academically in themore criminal justice and route
whereas outside of school I hada very active creative as well.
There's the whole stereotypicalstarting artist.
(02:35):
There, There's a lot of merit tothat and I have a lot of respect
for people who have those sortsof creative ambitions and I go
all in on that.
And for whatever reason thatjust didn't really feel like
that was what I should be doing.
It didn't, I didn't really feellike that life was for me.
People do it.
For for some, maybe it's abigger risk than others and
(02:57):
maybe they get some success outof it.
Maybe people who go all in onmusic.
Because they're putting all oftheir eggs in one basket,
they're able to put more workinto it.
And maybe that ends up payingoff for some of them.
something that I was thinkingabout a something interested in
passion?
Potentially make my chancesbetter and would they pay off in
(03:18):
the long run?
And at the end of the day, Ijust didn't really feel like
that was something that I wantedto do.
I was still fortunately able todo what I wanted to do and get a
lot of stuff done with mymusical interests alongside me
going to school and working andall of that.
So I was thinking okay, like, Idon't really think going all in
on music is right I end myundergrad experience.
(03:42):
with what I had majored in thething is too, with me, a lot of
my friends and a lot of thepeople that I was spending most
of the time with most of my timewith, they were all also
musicians.
So I was going off on my own, orat least it felt like I was in a
lot of, in a lot of ways.
Wanting to continue my educationin it really felt like being, I
(04:03):
was a first gen bachelor's gradas well, and it really did feel
like uncharted territory.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing when I was picking majors.
I wasn't really, I would pick amajor and then, af I would pick
a major.
It almost felt to get that outof the way.
And then afterwards I would lookup what are potential jobs that
I could do with this.
And it was towards the end of mytime in undergrad when I started
(04:23):
thinking to myself, okay I'minterested in law academically,
but I am a musician and I alsofeel like that's a big part of
my identity.
And I was thinking what could Ido?
Outside of that what could I dothat maybe incorporates a little
bit of both?
And I ended up at the time inundergrad, coming to the
conclusion that I I thought thatI was that I wanted to go and
(04:50):
combine both of those passionsin my life and go for
entertainment law.
And I remember talking to one ofmy professors at and pitching
that idea to him.
And he said he thought that wasan excellent idea.
Some people, maybe they thinkabout wanting to go to law
school their entire lives.
And that's and that could be avery good thing for some people.
In my case, it was the very lastsemester of undergrad, and it
(05:10):
was in some cases, even thesummer after undergrad was when
I finally made the decision thatI wanted to go to law school and
ended up studying for the LSAT,signing up for the LSAT later
that following year.
Because I didn't make decisionlaw school until my semester of
undergrad, It's not like I wasset up to start law school the
following year.
(05:31):
take a year off, figure out whateven the LSAT was, figure out
what law schools werepotentially good options.
And then ended up taking theyear to study for the LSAT,
which was another thing, anotherthing I was doing relatively
which it didn't really feel likeI had a lot of people to go do,
to ask for questions about LSATprep and all of that and what I
should really be expecting, howvaluable of a score should I be
(05:53):
trying to go for how what arethe best ways to study.
Some of that was on me.
I wasn't very Using theresources I had and going on the
internet.
So like I was just doing it onmy own and yeah ended up taking
the next year to study for theLSATs.
I got a relatively average scoreon the LSAT the first time I
could have taken it again andthat's something that I would
(06:15):
think about later too as well.
Should I have taken it again?
Should I have gotten a tutor?
I really only Studied mostly bymyself just in my local library
in my hometown Did some researchafter that, ended up applying to
a few schools and got into PaceLaw School, which at the time I
was living in Fishkill, NewYork.
So that was about 50 minutes toan hour from Pace in White
(06:35):
Plains.
That was also towards thebeginning of the pandemic at the
time.
So I knew that at least in thebeginning of my law school
career, it Yeah, then I endedup, fortunately getting into
PACE and accepted for thefollowing year.
So I had a gap year in betweenfinishing undergrad and law
(06:57):
school.
But honestly, I guess to kind ofpinpoint, answer your question,
it was just, I didn't, there wasnever a point in my life where I
thought I wanted to be a lawyer.
Even I decided I wanted to go tolaw school, one thing I would
always hear people talk aboutis, okay, a law degree is useful
even if you're not practicinglaw.
And I see that a lot now, like alot of my colleagues that I have
(07:18):
now, having graduated, a lot ofthem are very talented in what
they're doing.
They're not all practicingattorneys.
Some of them get into jobs withcorporations or companies where
their law degree is still a veryvaluable asset to their skillset
Depending on what you on whatyour interests are, that can
potentially be a valuable andworthwhile route to take for
some people.
(07:38):
So that was another thing I wasthinking when I was gonna law
school is okay.
It seems like the way ofthinking that it seems that you
get from law school and a lot ofthe analytical reasoning skills
and the way to issue spot, itseems like those sorts of skills
are very valuable no matter whatyou do.
So it I also have my musicalpassions that I can continue
(08:01):
that feels like I can continueregardless lemme just keep my
education going Lemme get a lawdegree that it seems like maybe
i'll figure out I have otherinterests in this field that I
maybe didn't know were there atfirst but either way, it seems
like it'll be a worthwhileexperience and it seems Skillset
and experiences that could helpme in my career in ways that
maybe I'm not to see
Miguel Sanchez (08:24):
One of the things that jumps at me, and
this is something that we tellprospective students, and that
is the JD is going to give you,as you mentioned, the skills and
the knowledge to apply that indifferent career paths.
Whether it's litigation orin-house counsel, or other
(08:46):
careers, having that JD is gonnagive you those opportunities.
In fact I keep up with alumni onLinkedIn and I can tell you that
every other week someone haschanged jobs gone somewhere else
because partly you're able to dothat with a JD.
So it just gives you moreversatility.
And so during that gap year.
(09:08):
What did you do besidespreparing for the LSAT?
Did you have a law related job?
What were you doing in that, inthat year?
John Manna (09:16):
So when I was finishing up undergrad actually
not law related at all.
I was working at a pizzeria formy entirety of the time in
undergrad.
I was working part-time at apizzeria, I also worked briefly
for a brewery at one point thatwas starting in my summer after
finishing undergrad.
And then, I didn't really havethat much experience working in
(09:40):
the legal industry before lawschool.
I really didn't.
Interned at a local courthouseduring one of my final semesters
of undergrad, But, I was inundergrad, I wasn't in law
school at that point, so aninternship at the courthouse
what that really meant was I wasjust observing local small
claims, and honestly and trafficticket proceeding.
(10:04):
It wasn't really something whereI was, Getting much intellectual
legal work experience and Ithink some of that probably came
from me being a first gen or aperspective first gen law
student at that point maybe Iwas telling someone else who
wanted to go to law school andwas thinking about studying for
(10:26):
the LSAT, maybe I would suggestlooking for some sort of
courthouse work or law firm workwhether it's part-time or just
even as an unpaid intern to getsome experience if they're able
to do that.
And I do think that's somethingthat could be valuable.
In my case, I really didn't getmuch experience like that before
law school.
I, during while I was studyingfor the LSATs I studied mostly
(10:49):
during the day again at, Thelocal library Monday through
Friday.
But aside from that, I wasworking at a brewery on
weekends.
And I also worked seasonally atthe Michael at Michael Kors
actually for that winter season.
So I was doing those two thingsand I would tell people at those
jobs about how I was studyingfor the LSAT.
And they were all very excitedfor me on the journey that I was
(11:13):
I didn't really get much legalexperience.
I didn't really have a fullygrasp what I was really getting
into at that point I wasstudying for the LSAT and that
was getting me into theheadspace for what it's worth,
but as I'm sure, the LSATitself, Doesn't really test
substantively on really anythinghaving to do with law.
It's more of a standardized testthat has to do with your,
critical thinking and readingcomprehension.
(11:34):
But at the time it felt like aHail Mary with me with me
studying for the LSAT.
I hadn't really had any realexperience in the legal field
aside from, I took theoccasional Law class in in
undergrad.
And actually when I was at SUNYNew Paltz, I took criminal law,
which I didn't realize it at thetime, but that professor who
(11:56):
taught me criminal law at SUNYNewpaltz for undergrad actually
ran it like a traditional lawschool class.
Like they did the cold callingjust holding up the attendance
sheet, calling on a random namefrom the very beginning of the
class.
We were reading cases, and atthe time, I was thinking, this
guy's out of his mind.
Why is who conducts in classlike this?
Little did I know that reallyhave that much actual legal
(12:19):
field experience prior to lawschool.
And by the time I took the LSAT,it was that February during my
gap year.
And then March that followingMarch, 2020, that was when that
was when the COVID pandemicreally started.
And that was when at that pointthere was the stay at home
policy.
So there was, I going into lawschool, I A of me figuring out
(12:42):
what attorneys do and what theactual legal profession requires
that came with actually gettinginto law school and now.
Miguel Sanchez (12:51):
In adding to that point of not having much
exposure And this is justgeneral advice to prospective
law students.
If you can, as John said, havethat law related job, if you
decide to take the gap year,what I think what it really does
is put you in a place where youcan understand The legal
(13:14):
culture, just like medicine andother fields, there's a culture,
there's a way of doing things.
So think about having that legaljob so you can understand the
culture that's in the legalspace.
So you're taking the LSAT.
we're now have to be home for arelatively long time and then
you start law school and it's anunusual time because if I recall
(13:37):
properly at the time classeswere set up in this schedule
where you didn't go to classevery day there was some sort of
pattern that to be honest Idon't remember What was the most
challenging aspect of startinglaw school?
John Manna (13:51):
I remember first hearing what the term big law
meant or what the term big lawwas probably a few weeks into my
first semester.
I didn't really know very muchabout What sizes and law firms
really meant, what it reallytook to get to specific law
(14:12):
firms versus others, what thoselaw firms really looked at.
I had no idea going into lawschool that I.
by going to a specific lawschool or by not going to a
certain law school, that alonewas arguably making your journey
or your prospects easier orharder than potentially others.
(14:33):
That was something that was.
Very new to me.
Also the value in the potentialvalue, depending on what your
goals are in class rank, thatwas something that was also very
new to me.
I couldn't say that duringundergrad I was a as invested of
(14:54):
a student, frankly, I wouldn'thave said that I was a very
passionate student in undergrad.
And that was because.
I was in part because I didn'treally know what I was doing at
the time.
I hadn't really, I was thinkingmuch more short term.
I hadn't really been thinking asmuch about my long term goals.
So because of that, class rankwasn't really something that I
ever really thought about inundergrad.
(15:14):
And I was suddenly in lawschool, that was something that
a lot of people were talkingabout.
The curve I hadn't All of yourstudy habits and how you looked
at finals and how you thoughtabout this semester in your
first year specifically and Idon't really remember hearing
(15:36):
about that until orientation ormaybe shortly after I got the
Pace.
And that wasn't really somethingthat kind of clicked for me of
what that really entailed forfor your finals in law school
until that were relativelysurprising.
And it did make it somewhatintimidating at times.
One thing that you'll hear allthe time in law school for
(15:58):
various reasons is impostersyndrome.
That was something that was thephrase that Certainly became
part of my regular vocabularygoing into law school was
feeling like I you know, whenyou're when you go into law
school when you start somethingthat's even if you do have
(16:20):
experience or even if people whohave done it before, it's still
very new.
You're still getting thrust intoa whole new group of people
doing work that You've reallyhad to do before again, even if
you've worked in a law firm Mostpeople will tell you that the
work that attorneys do is verydifferent than what you actually
do in law school so just havingto do that sort of dense case
(16:42):
reading it, it's a very newexperience even for people who
Do know people or even if you'vedone the research and I've heard
about what it's like, it's stillsomething that's really new for
you once you're doing it.
And everyone remembers, I think,and everyone probably had, most
people probably have thisexperience at the beginning of
law school.
As you start hearing about whatother people are doing, maybe a
few weeks into your firstsemester, you start hearing, oh,
(17:04):
so and so's doing this manypractice problems or so and so
has is already starting tooutline.
And that's something where ifyou know nothing about law
school, some of that could be ahelpful wake up call of oh,
maybe I should start thinkingabout.
Maybe there is something that Ishould take from what this other
person is doing.
But one thing that I've that Ilearned in law school not even
(17:26):
having to do substantively withlaw is the importance of
trusting your own instincts.
There.
There are always, There areusually things that you can get
from other people that arehelpful.
But at the end of the day, youhave to you have trust that you
know what's best you, becauseyou've point where in law school
You have trust that you havewhat it through And doesn't mean
(17:50):
You should completely ignorewhat other people are doing but
you also shouldn't let thatstress you out at the same time
you it's helpful to get adviceand potentially borrow study
habits and tactics from otherpeople.
But you have to, at the end ofthe day, always trust what
you're doing too, and trust thatYou know what's best for you
Miguel Sanchez (18:07):
So in this process of feeling some sort of
this imposter syndrome that youdescribed, how did there, at any
point, did you communicate thatto your family?
How was Your relationship withyour family in relation to law
school.
Did you talk to them about thisregularly?
Was this something that you keptto yourself?
(18:27):
How was that dynamic?
John Manna (18:29):
Interesting question.
I think that one, one thing thatmade those feelings of imposter
syndrome, I would saycomplicated or difficult to
really solve or deal with was inpart the fact that I was at the
time I was commuting to lawschool from Fishkill.
It was hybrid.
So I was going in person two,maybe three times a week at
(18:51):
most.
And then the rest of the timewas remote.
And, relatively.
soon into law school.
I did start fortunately makingfriends at my class, but because
of it being hybrid because of mecommuting, it did really feel
like I wasn't fully inculcatedin the law school culture at
that point.
that's something that I thinkended up really.
(19:13):
It served in my favor reallywell once I started getting more
involved in the community of lawschool, because then Once you
start getting connecting withpeople and you're able to vent
those sorts of feelings that youhave, you'll find that a lot of
people, like one of the, one ofthe solutions and one of thees
for that is hearing that a lotof people feel the exact same
(19:33):
way as you.
And having those sorts of peoplethat you can just vent to of
here's how I'm feeling.
Is this normal?
Here's what I'm doing.
Is this normal or should I bedoing more?
And then having someone tell youit's okay.
Everyone feels like that.
Don't let that freak you out.
What, what these other peopleare doing you're doing just
fine.
Trust me.
Here's what I did.
And it works just well for meand you're already doing better,
(19:53):
having those sorts ofconnections that you can really
vent to and have them vent toyou as well, whether it's in
your class, whether they'reupperclassmen who become your
mentors, I think that'ssomething that.
I Ended up being very helpfulto, to get to that point.
However, again, in the beginningof my one L year it took a
little bit for me to get to thatpoint, having been in a class
(20:14):
that was hybrid and commutingabout an hour and still feeling
like I wasn't really, it took alittle bit for the culture of
law school kind of cometogether,
Miguel Sanchez (20:24):
Part of the law school process, I think also,
and this is from feedback I hearfrom other students, alumni, I.
is building thatself-confidence, As you
mentioned, trust your your ownprocess, your own way of doing
things.
So building thatself-confidence.
how did you think, how do youthink being a musician helped
(20:45):
you with that self-confidence?
Do you think you were able tomaybe pick it up faster because
You're used to going up in frontof people and performing and
sometimes you're at rooms whereyou play, maybe you thought you,
you play your best and nobodyclaps.
Do you think that had some, insome way help you get through
(21:05):
that process of buildingself-confidence in law school?
John Manna (21:10):
that wasn't necessarily something that I was
always thinking about, and howthose two kind of work in tandem
together, but I think thatcertainly played a role in my
overall confidence and myself-assurance in the sense that
you're absolutely right.
When you're a musician and orany type of artist and you are
putting yourself out there,whether you're performing live,
(21:31):
whether you're promoting songsor anything that you've written
or anything that you've donethere has to be a, Of not caring
what people think and you haveto either the easy way or the
hard way develop a relativelydoing pretty well, and even if
your, a lot of your work seemsto be you still will always have
(21:54):
that sort of apprehension stillhave to build up for things like
that.
And I think that, again, even ifI wasn't think of consciously,
that if not in my ability to dothe work, but also in just the
(22:15):
way I, Conducted myself with mycolleagues and wasn't really
afraid generally to introducemyself to people and to smile
and say good morning and thingsthat seem small, but I think can
play a big role in improvingyour law school experience.
that certainly played a big rolein in my con, in my confidence
and also just having an outletlaw.
(22:37):
It's very.
It.
works your logical andreasonable and rational side of
your brain.
And then In a lot of ways, musicseems to work the exact opposite
of your brain.
Having that sort of balance atthe end of the day, when I could
go home and, try to write a songor just play guitar and just as
an outlet, like having that sortof balance, I think.
(23:00):
Kept me sane and I, a lot ofpeople have something like that
for them, whether it's music orit's sports or exercise or sort
of activity it helps you not getas much tunnel
Miguel Sanchez (23:16):
you were thinking about entertainment
law.
Did you continue that path?
What changed and tell us aboutwhat you do now?
I.
John Manna (23:27):
end up continuing actually that path for
entertainment law That was likeI said the original catalyst
that made me interested in lawschool.
And obviously your first year oflaw school, you take all of the
core or most of the core barclasses.
You don't have much say in whatclasses you take your first
year.
Your second year is the yearwhere you start to have much
(23:50):
more freedom.
There's still some requirements,but for the most part, you have
freedom in what you decide totake in law school.
And I did end up seeing thatentertainment Law was a class,
fortunately, that Pace, thatpays offered.
I took that my first, second, myfirst two l semester, I took
Entertainment Law.
And I did end up finding itfairly interesting.
(24:15):
It was, it actually is fairlymusician focused class, too,
which at, which at the time Idid I did appreciate.
However, I think I started tolearn more about what
entertainment law entailed and Istarted seeing that as easy of a
process to simply, for example,apply for an entertainment law
firm.
(24:35):
It seemed like a lot of it a lotof it seemed to be more solo
practitioners.
It seemed like it was verycompetitive, especially if you
wanted to, for example, go forAn in-house counsel position at
a record label, I ended upworking my summer and went out
at the Legal Aid Society of SanDiego which I actually got
through the Pace public interestlaw affair.
(24:59):
And then I ended up reallyenjoying my time working for
Legal Aid in San Diego thatsummer.
I think.
That was when I started feelinglike more doors were opening and
I started feeling okay I know Ioriginally wanted to do
entertainment law but now Iactually did this other legal
job that had nothing to do withentertainment and I Actually
(25:19):
really enjoyed it and I feltlike I got a lot of meaning out
of this other job Into my secondyear of law school I was still
interested and open toentertainment law But I felt
like my horizons were startingto broaden and I started feeling
okay this is starting to not,this is starting to feel less
like something I'm doing just tosee what happens.
And it's starting to feel like Iactually can start to build
(25:40):
other interests in the legalfield that I didn't think that I
didn't to my second year of lawschool, I started also getting
involved with the Pace LawAdvocacy Program.
I applied.
and tried out for moot court atthe time during my summer of one
oh for the upcoming two L year.
And I ended up fortunatelygetting put on the Wechsler
(26:04):
First Amendment moot for thatfirst fall Fortunately, I got
put on a team with people that Iwas that I was friendly with for
my first year of law school.
And I ended up having a greatexperience with that as well.
We fortunately with the help ofmy colleagues, we advanced to
Octo finals in my firstcompetition.
(26:25):
So I think those sorts ofexperiences.
Also that along with my jobafter my, after one L started
making me feel like, okay, me.
what I I was still going intothe studio on weekends I was in
(26:47):
some cases working on musicvideos on weekends and I would
still So like a, another bigthing is I didn't feel like I
needed to necessarily evencombine law and music at that
point I was thinking like okayi'm still doing music like i'm
still playing out when I can i'mstill putting out music
relatively regularly I'm stillable to fortunately find time to
go into the studio and to workon these projects.
(27:08):
So that's not going anywhere andI'm still, and I'm still gonna
be able to do that no matterwhat.
So let's, maybe let's see whatthe rest of the legal field has
to offer.
And I started feeling like I wastaking more chances and trying
more in a way that I wasenjoying more than I expected.
And.
In a way that I started gettingmore and more excited for as
(27:30):
going into my third year of lawschool.
and this is part of the reasonwhy I think that building a
network is one of the bestthings that you could do in law
school because it'll help youwith your sense of purpose and
feeling like you belong But thenIt also comes in handy in ways
you might not be thinking atfirst.
I got my first.
(27:51):
After law school clerking for ajudge in Bergen County Superior
Court for in family law, it wasa one year position.
I got that job from someone thatI had met in law school who she
had graduated a year prior tome.
And she had said Hey, we havesome judges in Bergen County
that are looking for law clerksand This was I think this was
relatively, this wasn't too latein my three L year to the point
(28:13):
where I hadn't been reallysitting down and sending out
applications that, that much yetat that point.
So I was very open-minded.
Ended up getting an interviewand I was thinking, okay I don't
know exactly I could havecertain options, but this sort
of one year, this one yearclerkship experience after law
school seems like a great way toget good experience and to get
(28:36):
my foot in the door and see if Iif I like family law too and
see, like, that's something Ihaven't really tried yet and I
haven't really done very muchwith.
In law school yet.
So, it that was a goodopportunity for me to start my
legal career.
I'd heard about the value thatclerkships can offer in working
with the judiciary and gettingthat sort of perspective on
things.
It seemed like to me, that was agood opportunity to start with
(28:57):
and a good way to get someexperience.
And that was an opportunity thatI got in very large part, just
from meeting people in lawschool and from networking and
I.
very much so in helping me inhelping me get my job with the
(29:18):
clerkship after law school.
And then also it helped with methe I'm at law firm in the
financial district in now.
Miguel Sanchez (29:25):
Dean Anderson who is the Dean of Haub Law, he
generally starts his welcomeaddress to the incoming
students, the new class eachfall.
I.
more or less, he starts off bysaying that The school, your
(29:47):
class is also your network asyou said, John, it's not just
having that network in a passiveway, but you have to be
intentional about making thoseconnections in law school and
definitely after law school,because they will help you and
you should all also be helpingothers along the way.
And John, as we are coming tothe end, I wanna ask you two
(30:09):
last questions.
after you've been through thisprocess, If you could talk to
yourself back as a incoming oneL student, what would you say to
yourself?
John Manna (30:19):
With this sort of question is the, I'm happy with
the path That I've gone on andI'm happy with the choices that
I've made.
So if I was talking to myselfprior to my one L year, I
wouldn't really want to tellmyself anything that would very
much change any of the choicesthat I've made the good ones and
the bad ones too.
I've, where I've ended I'mhesitant myself make anything go
(30:44):
differently because I'm gratefulfor how things have been turning
out, but I think that I wouldwanna reassure myself that I'm
on a good path for me look backnow and I think wow, at the time
when I decided to sign up forthe LSAT at that point in my
life, I never fully understoodor imagined the opportunities,
(31:05):
the experiences, the people thatI would've meet, some of my best
friends that I'm that I stilltalk to and that I will probably
continue to talk to to this dayand onward from law school, from
jobs those sorts of experiences.
I, I would wanna reassure myselfthat I very much advanced my
personal and my professionallife.
(31:25):
In ways that I never thoughtpossible and I wouldn't want to
do anything different even themistakes and even the maybe the
classes I shouldn't have takenand even the Things like that,
but I would so I wouldn't wannatell myself anything that would
change that but I would wannamake sure that I reassured
myself that things were gonnawork out and that and that I was
in for a great worthwhilejourney
Miguel Sanchez (31:48):
It does sound like your law school experience
has been transformative.
the last question I have, John,is you are a songwriter.
If you could write a song aboutlaw school, about your law
school experience?
What would you title it?
John Manna (32:05):
what's funny is I have written a song.
I can't say it was about.
Law school in general, but Imentioned I worked for legal aid
society in san diego And I wasat that point in my life.
I'd never been to san diego.
I'd never i'd never been to thatcity I didn't know anyone in
that city So it felt like I wastaking a leap of faith like i'm
(32:26):
gonna go do this public interestjob for a summer San Diego.
san diego.
I don't know anyone there.
What am I doing out there?
I'm gonna drive there am I outof my mind?
So I remember thinking like thatwas I'm gonna I had never even,
I commuted to undergrad too.
Like I never really even left myfamily house at that point.
So it felt like I was taking ahuge leap of faith.
And I remember I wrote a song atthat point, which actually I
(32:49):
wrote that song in my one Lyear.
And it's, I actually recentlywas in the studio recording it?
so it should actually bepotentially coming out sometime
in 2025, hopefully.
It's called 99 cent dream.
And I wrote that kind of aboutjust feeling like I was taking a
step.
And Feeling okay, there's nobetter time to just take a
chance like this.
And who knows what's gonnahappen.
(33:11):
Maybe it is maybe it is weird ofme to be feeling like I should
that things like this will workout, but I'm just gonna take
this chance and see whathappens.
What do I have to lose?
Now is the, there's not gonna bea more convenient time to get
these sorts of experiences.
That, that is an example of asong that I did write in part
about a transformativeexperience that I was going
through in law school.
Miguel Sanchez (33:35):
Are we looking out for it and for our listeners
John, how if someone wants tolisten to your work how should
people connect with you, whatyour social media pages,
websites?
How would you like to pointpeople to you?
John Manna (33:49):
It's funny in my job and everything.
I go as on Spotify and Applemusic and my website, Johnny
manna.com, but that'sJ-O-H-N-N-Y-M-A-N-N-A, and
that's on all the streamingservices and that's my website
as well.
And that's also my handle onInstagram, you could also find
(34:11):
me on Instagram by justsearching John Manna as well.
But if you type in either JohnManna or Johnny Manna into
Google, you most you.
Miguel Sanchez (34:20):
That's great.
And we'll definitely add thoseto our show notes and we'll also
have them on the screen.
You will see them on the bottomof the screen as John mentioned.
So John, thank you very much forspending your time with us for
the rest.
Be on the lookout for our nextepisode.
Thank you for tuning in.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoy the episode.
(34:40):
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Don't forget to leave a review.
Until next time.
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