September 19, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of the First Gen 101 podcast, host Miguel Sanchez chats with Nick Moustakas, a recent graduate of the Elisabeth Haub School of Law. They delve into Nick's transformative journey through law school, from initial doubts and challenges to successful bar exam preparation. Nick shares his insights on what sparked his interest in law, the importance of mentorship, and how he overcame the stresses of studying and the bar exam. This episode is a must-listen for prospective law students and anyone interested in the personal and professional growth that comes with a legal education.
00:00 Introduction: The Law School Transformation
00:36 Guest Introduction: Meet Nick Moustakas
00:48 Post-Graduation Reflections
01:37 The Spark: Why Law?
03:02 College Journey and Decisions
05:59 Parental Support and High School Challenges
07:25 Guidance Counselor's Impact
11:33 Law School Preparation: The LSAT Challenge
14:09 Orientation and First Impressions
18:00 Navigating the First Semester
19:36 Deciding to Stay in Law School
19:57 Communicating Doubts to Family
21:16 Finding a Groove in 2L Year
24:08 Choosing a Law Specialization
26:02 Importance of Mentorship
29:06 Bar Exam Preparation
32:37 Reflecting on Law School Experience
40:04 Future Aspirations
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nick Moustakas (00:00):
How do you think law school transform you?
(00:03):
In a lot of ways they tell youit's gonna happen.
You don't think it's gonnahappen, but it happens, I think
differently.
I really do, and I can't explainit.
Maybe it's more analytical.
You look at everything.
With a question mark in yourhead.
You question everything.
(00:24):
At least I do.
I look at every situation and Ilook at both sides, and I think
it really does.
Law school really does do that.
Mm-hmm.
Miguel Sanchez (00:36):
Welcome to another episode of the First Gen
101 podcast.
Today we have Nick Moustakas.
Nick, thank you for being heretoday.
Nick Moustakas (00:46):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having, me on.
Miguel Sanchez (00:48):
You graduated from the Elisabeth House School
of Law in 2024.
How has that year been since yougraduated?
it?
Nick Moustakas (00:57):
It's been good.
It's been eventful.
This
Miguel Sanchez (01:00):
summer
Nick Moustakas (01:00):
summer right after Is like a blur.
It's almost like it didn'thappen.
Like I, when I think of lastsummer now,'cause it, studying
for the bar, take the bar.
It's just, it's so weird
Miguel Sanchez (01:14):
Think
Nick Moustakas (01:14):
even think about that summer.
It really feels like it didn'texist.
Like when I think of lastsummer, I think of two years ago
because the bar just consumesyou so much.
The bar is a big.
Big event and keep you verybusy.
Definitely.
And then after that, juststarted working.
So it's it's just been, straightthrough from there.
Miguel Sanchez (01:37):
We'll get to the bar exam because that in and
of itself has its own challengesbefore we get there, at what
point did you decide that youwanted to be a lawyer?
One of the things that I ask ourguests in the podcast is there's
usually something that happenedin in students that creates that
(01:57):
motivation or sort of thatmoment that sparks interest in
law.
What was that for you?
Nick Moustakas (02:04):
Yeah, for me, I think back to I did a high
school mock trial class and Ithink I had, an idea of wanting
to.
Potentially be a lawyer beforethen.
So I think I took that class inmy senior year of high school
and I think I had thoughts ofbeing a lawyer before then.
But of course, you don't reallyknow for sure, right?
(02:28):
I think you start to get anidea, but it's, you don't know
for sure at that point.
And I think I found thatexperience to be a lot of fun.
So I just remember, asking awitness a question on the stand
and
Miguel Sanchez (02:42):
you
Nick Moustakas (02:43):
I think it was a, I think it was a, I was cross
examining them and it went welland I was like, this is what I
wanna do.
And so I think that really iswhat kind of sparked my interest
from there.
Miguel Sanchez (02:57):
so it sounds like it started in high school,
going into college.
What, did you attend schoolafter high school?
Yeah,
Nick Moustakas (03:05):
Yeah, so I did a year at Duchess Community
College in Poughkeepsie.
I was a criminal justice major.
It didn't really, at that point,it wasn't solidified that I
wanted to go to law school.
I just, I was a criminal justicemajor.
I thought about possiblybecoming a police officer.
And then I and then Itransferred to PACE and
(03:27):
Pleasantville officer my firstyear.
And that's when I found outabout Pace's three plus three
program which I didn't end updoing, but it.
Really solidified my choice togo to law school.
So it wasn't solidified when Istarted college that I was
definitely gonna go to lawschool.
(03:47):
I didn't have that figured outtill, another year later.
But yeah.
Miguel Sanchez (03:54):
So for our listeners, the three plus three
program, and there are undergradinstitutions that.
Have these partnerships, whetherit's with the law school within
the university or even other lawschools a student can study
three years of undergrad and ifthey meet all the requirements
(04:16):
and they take the right courses,they can take their senior year
to be their first year in lawschool so that they complete law
school in a shorter.
Time.
In other words, three years ofundergrad, three years of law
school, where if they're doneseparately, it would be four
(04:37):
years of undergrad, three yearslaw school doing it.
Full-time.
And the idea is to get studentsto accelerate in some way, if
that's something that thestudent has if they wanna be
lawyers.
So you attended PACE undergradand did you work during
undergrad?
(04:57):
What was your undergradexperience like?
Nick Moustakas (05:00):
Yeah.
So for me, undergrad I, first ofall, I was a commuter, so I
commuted from here in DutchessCounty.
Down at Pleasantville.
It was about a, 45 minute drive.
So it wasn't anything crazy.
And I did work.
My dad owns a small businessthat's like seasonal work for
the first part of the schoolyear up until Around November or
(05:23):
so, I would work with him when Iwasn't in school.
And then during the winter Iwould, find a job working at a
retail store or something likethat.
Until the time for working withmy dad started again in the
spring.
Miguel Sanchez (05:37):
And what type of work does your dad do?
If he's still doing the samework or back
Nick Moustakas (05:42):
Yeah.
He owns a driveway seal coatingbusiness.
So it's a, like paving over orsteel coating over blacktop on
driveways to keep it intact andmain maintain it and help it
help the blacktop last longer.
Miguel Sanchez (05:59):
Or your parents what was when you them that you
wanted to go to law school, youstarted preparing for law
school, how did your parentssupport you or what was their
advice to you in the process?
Nick Moustakas (06:14):
Yeah, I think my parents were absolutely like.
Onboard with me the whole time.
They were always verysupportive.
I remember, in high school whenhere's a spoiler for you.
I wasn't the greatest highschool student, okay?
I just not, not that committedin high school.
Which, you're a teenager andyou're doing what you.
(06:37):
Wanna do.
And so I'll preface it withthat.
And I remember when I told myguidance counselor that I
possibly wanted to go to lawschool, my parents were there.
And I remember him, him saying Ithat might be a little
farfetched.
It might be a little out ofreach.
Miguel Sanchez (06:53):
You.
Nick Moustakas (06:54):
At the,'cause at the time, I wasn't getting into
Harvard, that's for sure.
From undergrad from high school.
I remember my parents just beingso furious with that statement
just'cause they were like, ifyou wanna do something, you can
absolutely do it.
And clearly they were right.
So they've always been verysupportive.
Miguel Sanchez (07:13):
Nick, when you, that experience you're sharing
with us, I've heard that.
Similar statement at least fourtimes now in previous episodes.
And now I'm wondering why do youthink that is?
And why do you think and thereare a lot of great guidance
counselors out there, don't getme wrong, but why would someone,
(07:33):
I guess from your perspective,why someone who's there to
support a student.
Say something like that.
Have you ever thought aboutmaybe there's something about
the way students are beingadvised what are your thoughts
about, hearing something likethat?
Nick Moustakas (07:50):
I understand why my parents were very upset about
it, but for me it just lit afire under me, I think, and
wanted to prove him wrong.
I remember a friend of mine tooI told him I wanted to go to law
school and he was like.
Come on.
And I think those kinds ofthings excite you and light a
fire under you and motivate youto prove people wrong.
(08:12):
And I think that's certainlywhat it did for me.
Now why do, why might a guidancecounselor, say that?
I think they try to find a good,happy medium of.
Motivating people, but alsokeeping expectations realistic
(08:33):
Now in high school, is thatentirely necessary to keep
expectations realistic?
I guess I think so.
You certainly don't wanna justtell someone, oh yeah, you can
just go and go to law school orgo to medical school or do
whatever.
Because they might think theydon't have to, they can do it
without putting in the hard workthat it takes to get there.
(08:54):
So I think they try to manageexpectations, if I had to guess.
But.
I'm not really sure if that, ifI had to guess, it's definitely
to keep expectations.
Well managed, at the same time,maybe they're trying to light a
fire under their people, I don'tknow.
I don't know.
I know that guidance counselor,I know him personally.
He actually does the same kindof work that my dad does during
the summer.
(09:14):
And he is a great guy and.
I remember I called him when Ifound out I got into law school
and he was like you proved mewrong.
So it was he's a good guy and Ithink he, I think it was part
him trying to motivate me.
'cause he knew me well.
He knew what motivated me.
But, also trying to manage myexpectations a little bit, which
is fair.
Miguel Sanchez (09:35):
And I, and it jumps at me because one of the
things that, that that we'veheard in past episodes is that,
the reason why I started, if youremember that moment, is because
there are specific moments inpeople's life, whether it's
something that happened to them.
if there was a person, whetherit's a mentor or in this case,
someone who who made a statementthat can really either motivate
(09:58):
someone even discourage someone.
And so that, that could go bothways.
So I'm always curious to, toknow perspectives about that.
So you going through college andyou realize that maybe the three
plus three program was not thebest fit at that point.
and before we jump into theactual application process.
(10:19):
Did you ever have any lawrelated internships during
college?
Any experiences, that sort ofgave you an insight to what it's
like to be a lawyer?
Nick Moustakas (10:32):
I didn't have any internships that were law
related in college.
I did shadow an attorney oncefor a couple of days down in
White Plains.
And, that was, it was, it was acouple days, so it wasn't a
great, real insight into whatbeing an attorney is but it was
good to see, like just what aday or two might look like.
(10:55):
So I didn't do anything beyondthat really.
I did Model un, which there,there were certainly, some
people who would be like on theboards and things like that, who
were went to law school orthings like that and, had brief
conversations with them aboutit.
One of my professors was alawyer who just graduated from
(11:15):
Case when she was teaching aclass and she knew everybody in
the class.
Was interested in going to lawschool.
So she would talk about it alot.
but yeah, those were myexperiences.
in undergrad, I didn't do any,long-term internships though.
Miguel Sanchez (11:31):
And so going into the actual law school
process.
'cause think, and again, youknow this, going through the law
school education and theprocess, it's very unique and
it's very demanding.
And I wanna make sure that wespend enough time on that
because I think that's reallyhelpful to prospective law
students, especially first genwho don't know what to expect
and just don't know what it'slike to go to law school and to
(11:52):
go through that process.
So you decide to go to lawschool and.
What was the har, what was the,I guess the cha the, what was
the hardest piece of preparingfor law school?
Is it the lsat?
Is it deciding where you'regonna go?
What was the biggest challengebefore getting into law school?
Nick Moustakas (12:13):
Yeah, so I think as far as challenges.
Where I wanted to go wasdefinitely the lowest on the
list.
Just'cause I, I went to Pace, Iwas, I liked Pace and I knew the
head of law school and I was, Iwanted to do the three, three
program for a while.
It wasn't until Covid happenedthat, I decided it was best to
(12:36):
just hold off.
wait till there.
I'll wait till I graduate andthen I, hopefully be in person
for my first year.
So
Miguel Sanchez (12:44):
because
Nick Moustakas (12:44):
I wanted to do the three three program pace was
always like my top choice, just'cause the, the three three
program was always there.
So that was definitely the, onthe low end of stressors for
preparing for law school.
At least for me, I think thehighest, the highest stressor,
the highest challenge.
The biggest challenge was thelsat, I think for me.
(13:06):
I didn't do any kind ofcommercial tutoring or anything
like that.
I really just, Taught myself forthe most part.
I remember I did a, like a oneor two night quick little trial
course at pace, I think.
And that was helpful.
(13:26):
But the LSAT's tough andespecially teaching yourself was
difficult.
And, I was just trying to getwhatever score I needed to.
Get into law school.
It was a tough challenge to, toget there and to do the practice
over and over again when you'rejust, some of those things, some
(13:50):
of those questions just, I haveno idea what I was doing, so
that was definitely the biggestchallenge for me.
Miguel Sanchez (13:56):
And after you take the lsat, you think you're
done.
And then you law school and yourealize you have to continue
putting all those hours intostudying.
and then we'll talk about thatin a moment.
how was the day beforeorientation?
Was it something like, ah, I'mjust gonna go, or were there
concerns, or maybe, hesitations,nervous?
(14:18):
What did that night beforeorientation look like for you?
Nick Moustakas (14:22):
Yeah, I'll tell you this.
I remember the weekend before Iwent out to to the Hamptons with
my now fiance and her family.
They, her uncle, I think, renteda house for the weekend or
something like that and invitedus to go, which was very nice.
And I remember on Saturday therewas a
Miguel Sanchez (14:42):
huge
Nick Moustakas (14:44):
storm coming in and they were, I think, telling
people to evacuate because itwas gonna be real bad.
And that's Saturday and myorientation's Monday.
I was planning on leaving Sundaymorning and I'm like, I gotta
get outta here.
'cause if I get stuck here and Imiss my orientation, it's gonna
be a disaster.
So I left I left like Saturdayaround two o'clock and it, I
(15:09):
didn't get home till about 10:00PM and that's from.
The Hamptons to Poughkeepsie.
It shouldn't take you eighthours to get home.
But there was so much trafficbecause everybody was, people
were evacuating there, just, itjust took forever.
So anyway, that was two daysbefore, but the day before, I
think I was just trying tofigure out what I needed to.
(15:31):
Due, there was some homeworkthat they asked us to complete
before we went, That I still hadto get done.
So it was a lot of that, a lotof kind of rereading through
everything, making sure I was,felt prepared to go in.
And and, just letting the nervespull down a little bit.
Miguel Sanchez (15:51):
So you go to the process of orientation and
then you, and you might rememberthat it's very general and a lot
of people speaking and givingyou support and advice to start
your education.
But then really, and so from myexperience I see that into the
second or third week, maybe themonth in of your first semester.
(16:13):
That's when.
In my experience, I see people'sfaces change.
A lot of them seem concerned orworried or just stressed because
now they're really going throughthe readings and the classes, et
cetera.
what point in your firstsemester did you realize this is
unlike anything I've done?
Or was it like unlike anythingyou've done, what was that sort
(16:34):
of realization that this is morethan just undergrad, it's
requires more time.
Nick Moustakas (16:40):
Driving home from orientation the very first.
day.
It was, I was going through it.
I was like, I was ready to, Iwas already ready to leave.
Miguel Sanchez (16:50):
Oh
Nick Moustakas (16:50):
I left orientation, literally the first
day of orientation thinking thisis just not for me.
And.
Miguel Sanchez (16:57):
and
Nick Moustakas (16:59):
I think, the people they brought in to speak
were all very, good.
And, they brought in studentswhich was good.
Gave you some good insight forme.
That insight just scared thehell outta me.
And I thought this was justgonna be crazy, right?
I didn't understand how the,there was the curve, right?
Miguel Sanchez (17:22):
And
Nick Moustakas (17:22):
That scares everybody.
And they really pushed on howthere all, there's all these
readings every night, you'regonna have all these readings.
And it really just, I think,scared me a bit.
And I didn't think I could keepup with all of that.
(17:43):
Yeah, it was the leavingorientation that I was like, oh
man, what did I get myself into?
Miguel Sanchez (17:49):
There are instances when, working in
admissions, I've seen.
people who will drop and theyjust decide, this is definitely
not for me.
And we understand why when youstarted going through your
classes and doing your readings,were you one of those students
who studied as a group?
(18:11):
Did you study on your own?
How did you get and push throughthat?
The material and the readings,because the readings the, forget
about the time you spendreading, but the readings
themselves are just verychallenging because it's, the
language is that it's verydifferent.
was that process of gettingthrough being successful?
Was it mostly on your own?
Did you rely on other peers,Dean, scholars?
(18:32):
What was that process like foryou?
Nick Moustakas (18:34):
Yeah.
So for me, I was definitely, Idefinitely read on my own,
studied on my own.
Frankly, during my whole firstsemester, honestly, I was a foot
out the door.
I was not planning on going backafter the first semester, so I
really didn't put in.
(18:55):
The effort that I should haveduring my first semester.
And so I ended up waiting a longtime to start studying for
finals, which I, any perspectivefirst year law students, please
don't do that.
It's just not in your bestinterests, in my opinion.
(19:16):
It worked out fine.
I was able to push through andget it done and I did.
Good enough consideringconsidering that I waited so
long to start studying.
But that was a challenge,waiting till the end to realize
that, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonnastay, it wasn't until probably
two weeks before finals that Iwas committed to staying after
(19:39):
the first semester.
And so I, so that's when Idecided to put in the effort.
But.
That was the biggest part, wasjust, finding, okay, how do I do
enough to just get by here Atleast and save face because like
I said, I was a foot out thedoor the whole time.
Miguel Sanchez (19:57):
When through this process of, doubting and,
maybe leaving law school acertain point, did you
communicate that to yourparents?
How was that?
Nick Moustakas (20:08):
Yeah, so I was.
Completely open about it.
I told my fiance I was my, nowmy now fiance, she was, we
weren't engaged at the time, butI told her, I, I think I'm done.
I told my parents, I'm done.
I'm not doing this.
This is crazy.
It's not gonna work out.
And they were just, verysupportive.
(20:29):
Frankly, they were, they said,oh, if you don't think you, you
can do it, then don't do it.
Don't make a decision thatyou're gonna regret later on.
But they reassured me that theyweren't telling me that because
they also thought I couldn't doit.
It was, they wanted me to knowthey knew I had the ability to
(20:55):
push through and to, it'll goaway eventually.
These scary feelings will goaway eventually.
And eventually you'll find yourfooting and you'll hit a groove
and it'll all be okay.
And they were a hundred percentbut they were completely
supportive if I wanted to makethe choice to, to not go through
with it.
Miguel Sanchez (21:16):
something that I hear from students, especially
as they go into their secondyear.
I don't know that it happensgoing into your second year,
your 2L Year year, but for manystudents that's when I notice
it.
In some ways it somethingclicks, and wanna say there's
some sort of like magic, I don'twanna put it that way, but
(21:38):
there's something that happensin the process that you finally
get it it seems lessoverwhelming than it was during
your first semester.
What would you say for you wasthat moment, or what do you
think clicked that you felt?
Okay, I understand you mentionedgetting to a groove.
When did you feel like you had abetter understanding of what was
(21:59):
going on
Nick Moustakas (22:01):
Like you said, It was.
the very beginning of my twoyear?
Miguel Sanchez (22:06):
Even during
Nick Moustakas (22:07):
My second semester of my first year, it
was still new.
I think I enjoyed the classes alittle more.
I think I found the classes moreinteresting.
I think I, what is it nearsecond semester?
It's contracts, property CommLaw, and le and, legal writing.
I think I found those topics alittle more interesting and they
(22:29):
jelled with me a little more.
But it wasn't until my secondsemester, my second year, first
semester that I felt extremelycomfortable.
I was taking evidence withProfessor Griffin and.
It just clicked with me.
Evidence just clicked with meand it was the first class that
(22:52):
I felt like I knew what I wasdoing.
It's just something about theway you applied the rules that
just felt natural to me.
And it just worked.
It just clicked in my brain andI was able to.
Take that confidence and buildon it.
And my grades greatly improvedfrom my from my first year.
(23:15):
And I really think evidence waslike the first class that gave
me some confidence to, to thinkokay, I can do this.
Like I was completelycomfortable at that point.
Miguel Sanchez (23:26):
For our prospective students or just
anybody who may be interested inlaw school.
Nick mentioned a few courses andas a one LE as a one L student
in the first year, one L firstyear, we use the terms
interchangeably.
You are assigned the sameclasses and everyone takes the
same courses.
(23:47):
They are the foundationalcourses that not only are and
are vital for law school, butthey're also part of the bar
exam, which, we'll, I wannatouch on that in a moment.
And then second and third year,you start taking courses that
interest you depending on whatyou wanna pursue or just general
electives that you wanna learnabout different topics.
(24:08):
And on that note, and we haven'ttalked about this yet, what area
of law.
Were you interested at the timeand are you practicing the area
of law that you came in thinkingabout, what was that process of
deciding, what interests, whatarea of law versus what you're
doing now?
(24:29):
Yeah,
Nick Moustakas (24:29):
so I think when I came into law school I wanted
to do corporate law stuff Ithink I found it interesting
and.
How that translated.
Now I work in a general practicefirm we handle everything which
includes some corporate work.
So I, I do, we do real estate.
(24:49):
We do estate administration,estate planning municipal law
just kind of everything, right?
It's not what I imagined doing,like when I first came to law
school to an extent, but I don'tknow.
If many people stay on the same,
Miguel Sanchez (25:09):
mm-hmm.
Nick Moustakas (25:10):
do the same, follow the path that they wanted
to do.
I don't know why I wanted to docorporate law, frankly.
I think it just sounded great,but yeah, I didn't end up
following that path, but I thinkthat's, I think that's extremely
common.
Miguel Sanchez (25:24):
No, it's more common than even when I came in,
into the admissions world.
I've heard, and even recently aswe are preparing the next class,
is I wanna pursue this area oflaw and the very, very keen on
it and I'm glad to see that.
And we often do just advise,hey, that might be an interest
that will stick with you.
(25:46):
But also be open-minded to otherpractices as you go through law
school for many reasons.
It could be just the economy isnot favorable to the area of law
that you're interested, or youmight just find other interests
as you take classes or as youmeet professors.
One of the things that I wannaemphasize, and I wanna get your
take on this, how was theprocess of mentorship?
(26:09):
Because that is a big, I findthat's a big element that.
Help students get through lawschool, especially as a first
gen student.
What was the process and how didyou find mentors in law school?
Who did you go to for supportwhen you needed additional
guidance?
Nick Moustakas (26:28):
That's a great question.
I didn't, I had a great mentor.
I had Stephanie Dedo.
She was she teaches in the ASAPprogram and she, and the bar
classes and things like that.
I remember I had a class withher during my second year, my
first semester.
And I knew that she wasknowledgeable on kind of the
(26:52):
whole.
Overall law school experience.
She wasn't, it was like aprofessor who was teaching one
of the big classes who, she wasa good mentor in just talking
about the process.
And I think she was great.
She was always there to take aquestion when I had it.
So she was a good mentor.
(27:12):
And then I also think I had afriend who is from the same area
as me in Duchess County.
We were in law school together.
We met during our orientationweek.
And he had a similar kind ofexperience as me, I think,
where, he was the firstgeneration law student didn't
(27:33):
know many.
Miguel Sanchez (27:35):
attorney.
Nick Moustakas (27:36):
And so he was always good to just talk to
about, like all that's going on,like all the experiences that we
were experiencing together.
'cause we took a lot of classestogether and just, not.
Being it was good to have afriend that was in a similar
spot.
So he wasn't, I wouldn't say hewas a mentor, but it was just a
(27:57):
great person to talk to about,all the new experiences.
'cause like I said we reallyjust
Miguel Sanchez (28:03):
were
Nick Moustakas (28:05):
not experience at all with Knowing attorneys or
networking and things like that.
So it was good to, to have thatperson as well.
Miguel Sanchez (28:14):
One of the things that I've noticed about
students as far as buildingcamaraderie, all law students
are sectioned.
In other words, when you arrive,have the class, whether it's a
hundred ten, two hundred ten,whatever the number is, and
you're typically divided intosections.
And that's a common practice inall law schools.
(28:37):
And I find that students who arein the same section tend to
really bond.
Especially with sharedexperiences and that bond goes
even after law school and you gothrough your process and then
there's a bar exam, so yougraduate.
You have that moment ofattending commencement and
celebrating with your families.
But then unlike other graduatedegrees, it doesn't end there.
(29:00):
There's still the bar exam ifyou want to practice law and
that usually it's shortly aftergraduation.
Tell me about your bar prepprocess, because that in and of
itself, it's a big deal.
It your ability to practice lawreally hangs on that.
the bar preparation like for youand how was that those moments
(29:22):
leading up to taking the barexam?
Nick Moustakas (29:26):
Yeah, so for me was a little unorthodox.
I knew that the first year.
Subjects were not going to be mystrong suit.
like I said, I was a foot outthe door right for at least the
first semester, and I just was,I felt that I did not have a
(29:48):
good grasp on those subjects.
So I started as soon as the barcourses opened up in March.
And it wasn't just it wasn'tjust, do a little bit here and
do a little bit there I wasfull-time pretty much.
To the extent I could be while Iwas still in class.
We had about a month left or so,so I was when I wasn't in
(30:08):
school, I was studying for thebar.
That was about late March, Ithink.
And for people that don't know,typically you start around
graduation, which is towards theend of May, mid.
And it's about 10 weeks ofstudying, but I just knew I was
going to spend a lot of time onthose subjects that I, that
(30:29):
those core subjects that Ididn't, that I just didn't feel
confident in.
And and so I started prettyearly.
And the good part of that was itgave me a ton of time to be
comfortable with.
Not understanding something,having to go back and relearn it
if I needed to.
(30:49):
And I felt, by the end of it, Ijust felt like I, I couldn't do
any more, and not from a beingtired standpoint, but just I
just didn't know what else to doanymore.
Like I've, I had just done somuch by the last, week before
the test, I.
I just ran out of things.
(31:10):
I was starting to do essays overagain and things like that
because I was, I just overprepared, but I was happy that I
did.
Miguel Sanchez (31:20):
this, what you are describing is really
important and how, startingyour, you basically, you started
Bar Prep, as you said, muchearlier than what's typical.
that is a big point because youknew where your needed to
improve.
And so that's a good way toapproach it because there,
(31:43):
there's students that could say,Hey, I'll Bar Prep will take
care of that for me.
But it's really important thatas a mature person to say, Hey,
I really struggle in this part.
I need to address it becausechallenging about the bar among.
Besides the content itself isyou sit for the bar exam if you
(32:04):
take it in July, and then youdon't get your score until
October or November, October,November.
So you have all those monthswhere you're just waiting and
you don't know what's gonnahappen, then if you don't pass,
then you have to go through theprocess again.
the winter.
So taking that approach wasreally smart.
And then, and all of you who arelistening make a special note to
(32:26):
that, that when you're in lawschool, be very frank and honest
with yourself and say, Hey, thisis what I need to work on.
And do it as we get to as, as westart closing.
Nick, one of the things thatI've, I hear regularly, and I
heard this yesterday duringcommencement, the idea that law
school.
(32:46):
a transformative experience.
do you think law schooltransform you
Nick Moustakas (32:54):
In a lot of ways definitely not the same one.
I think I'm, I think I'm alittle more serious than I was
for better or for worse, whoknows, but that's one thing I,
and I, and the other is that Ithink I, they tell you it's
gonna happen.
You don't think it's gonnahappen.
(33:15):
It happens, I think differently.
I really do.
And I can't explain it.
Maybe it's more analytical.
You look at everything with aquestion mark in your head.
You question everything.
At least I, do.
I look at every situation and Ilook at both sides, and I think
it really.
(33:36):
Does law school really does dothat?
I think it's just gotta be thecases.
Reading those cases you see justhow the judges write.
They're for the most part, theyusually, they analyze both sides
when the judges write opinions.
I think that just trains you toalways look at it like that.
(33:57):
So I think that's definitelysomething where, you know, it
just, it changes the way youthink.
They tell you it's going tohappen.
You always hear it and you'relike, no, what do you mean it's
gonna change the way I think.
What does that even mean?
And it does, you thinkdifferently.
Miguel Sanchez (34:13):
What was your favorite part law school?
Nick Moustakas (34:19):
I think one learning was.
is just.
Fun gosh, go and tell highschool me that, he is probably
laugh in your face.
But it's fun.
I found the materialinteresting.
And then I, the other thing wasbeing a dean scholar, I was a
dean scholar for evidence in mylast year.
And that was probably like justthe best experience that I had
(34:41):
during law school.
Itself, I, I also Intern at thefirm that I work at now, and
that was a fantastic experienceas well.
But as far as like in school,being a Dean Scholar was my
favorite part.
I just loved teaching thesubject, evidence.
It was by far my favoritesubject.
I, and I was passionate about,helping other people learn it.
(35:04):
Who, evidence is a hard subjectfor a lot of people.
It's, they don't, for me, Ithought it was, it just clicked
in my brain.
For other people it does theopposite.
And I loved helping other peoplelearn how to get it to click.
Miguel Sanchez (35:22):
what is a Dean scholar?
Nick Moustakas (35:24):
So Dean Scholar is someone who, it holds
sessions each week for aparticular professor and a
particular subject.
So typically your professors andyour, especially in your first
year will you'll only have themfor one subject.
So all my professors weredifferent in my first year.
So each professor has a deanscholar for a particular class.
(35:47):
So for me, I was ProfessorGriffin's evidence Dean Scholar.
And they hold a weekly weeklysession or two weekly sessions
where the class can attend andyou go over the material, that
was covered the week prior tohelp reinforce that material and
to answer any questions thatpeople would feel.
Nervous about asking theprofessor.
(36:08):
'cause they can, there's 75people typically I think, around
in each class, people will getnervous about asking a question
in front of everyone or askingthe professor a question.
So people will come and, ask askquestions or, We'd go over the
material.
We would do hypos to, make surewe're understanding the
material.
And that's the gist of it, likea, like a class tutor is how I
(36:31):
would describe it.
Miguel Sanchez (36:32):
Great.
For those of you who areconsidering pace Dean Scholar is
actually very unique to Pace andit's one of the ways that we
support our studentsacademically.
And what do you miss about lawschool?
Now you're working, and Isuppose you're not doing a lot
of studying.
Maybe you're doing professionaldevelopment and stuff, but what
do you miss about.
Law school generally?
Nick Moustakas (36:55):
I think the, I'm learning every day at work,
right?
Because I'm.
A new attorney.
Every day is a new, I'm learningsomething new.
Whether it's aboutprofessionalism or how to how to
be a better writer or just fromexperience.
(37:15):
I have very experiencedattorneys that, that I work
with.
So I do learn every day, butit's a, but I've missed I do the
really intellectual Learningpart of law school.
I think learning a new subjectis fun.
Especially when you have a greatprofessor.
There's just, you are, you'renot, I wouldn't say you're
(37:39):
excited to go to class, let's behonest, but you don't mind going
to that class, that's a greatthing.
And I miss that.
Learning a new subject andgetting it, understanding it,
that's a great feeling.
When it clicks, a lot of lawschool classes, and this is good
information for people who areconsidering it's not like in, in
(38:03):
undergrad and like in highschool, you do things by units.
You do that in law school too,but in law school, for me at
least the whole semester, you'rejust like, how is this gonna fit
together?
Like high school and undergrad,the units are like all separate
and they really don't all fittogether in the end.
(38:25):
And so you can understand eachindividual unit as you go.
But in law school, I, at leastin my experience, the whole
semester, you are justwondering.
What in the world is going onand then you're, then you study
for your finals and all of asudden you see how all of these
(38:47):
things intertwine and you zoomout and you understand it.
Maybe during the semester youwere just like, I don't
understand what in the worldthis means.
I don't get this.
And then at the end it all fitslike a puzzle.
It's.
And it's a good feeling when youfinally get to that point and
(39:10):
you did all your studying andyou feel confident going into a
test and you just understand itall.
That's a great, that's a greatfeeling.
I.
Miguel Sanchez (39:18):
I like how you explained it that when you look
at it individually zooming in,you don't get to see how it
fits.
But once you zoom out and seethe big picture, then you see
how it fits and maybe you seepatterns.
And that's great because forthose who are considering law
school or who are going throughlaw school.
(39:40):
It's important to have thatfocus, but also step back and
take a mindful approach.
Not a mindful, but really anintentional approach of, let me
see how this all fits in, and beintentional about it so that you
don't just get stuck and thenyou don't see where this is
going.
And maybe that could be a reasonwhy many students get frustrated
(40:01):
and even end up leaving.
So I'm glad you mentioned that.
To close, Nick, what does thefuture look like?
Nick Moustakas (40:08):
Yeah.
So I think, like I said, thefirm I work at, I, the attorneys
are the, just, there's a lot ofexperience there.
And they're great to work with.
And I, I hope I'm I plan to bepeer for a long time at this
firm.
There's a lot of growthpotential and just a lot to
learn from from some verywell-respected attorneys.
(40:31):
So I think, for me, I think asfar as growth, like I, I just, I
want to get to the point where Ifeel.
I totally know what I'm doing.
I think it's normal when youstart anything.
And I've been there for alittle, a little less than a
year now, but you're still newand you're still new to practice
and I just hope, I can grow intoa better, a great lawyer and a
(40:55):
complete lawyer who's, versed.
And I think the.
People who work at this firmget, definitely give me the
opportunity to do that.
Because that's how I woulddescribe how I would describe
the partners at this firm arejust, complete attorneys.
They're not just good at onething or focus on one thing.
They have a lot of experienceand a lot of things, and I hope
(41:17):
to to learn from them.
Miguel Sanchez (41:20):
Nick, thank you again.
I'm so happy that you sharedyour experiences and you were so
open.
I'm glad that during thosemoments when you felt like were
ready to quit, that you didn't,and you now you're seeing how
worth it was for you to stick itout for the three years and
through the bar exam.
So Nick, thank you very much.
I appreciate your time.
(41:40):
For those of you listening,thank you for following and
watch out for the next episode.
Thank you, Nick.
Nick Moustakas (41:46):
Thank you.
How do you think law school transform you?
(00:03):
In a lot of ways they tell youit's gonna happen.
You don't think it's gonnahappen, but it happens, I think
differently.
I really do, and I can't explainit.
Maybe it's more analytical.
You look at everything.
With a question mark in yourhead.
You question everything.
(00:24):
At least I do.
I look at every situation and Ilook at both sides, and I think
it really does.
Law school really does do that.
Mm-hmm.
Miguel Sanchez (00:36):
Welcome to another episode of the First Gen
101 podcast.
Today we have Nick Moustakas.
Nick, thank you for being heretoday.
Nick Moustakas (00:46):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having, me on.
Miguel Sanchez (00:48):
You graduated from the Elisabeth House School
of Law in 2024.
How has that year been since yougraduated?
it?
Nick Moustakas (00:57):
It's been good.
It's been eventful.
This
Miguel Sanchez (01:00):
summer
Nick Moustakas (01:00):
summer right after Is like a blur.
It's almost like it didn'thappen.
Like I, when I think of lastsummer now,'cause it, studying
for the bar, take the bar.
It's just, it's so weird
Miguel Sanchez (01:14):
Think
Nick Moustakas (01:14):
even think about that summer.
It really feels like it didn'texist.
Like when I think of lastsummer, I think of two years ago
because the bar just consumesyou so much.
The bar is a big.
Big event and keep you verybusy.
Definitely.
And then after that, juststarted working.
So it's it's just been, straightthrough from there.
Miguel Sanchez (01:37):
We'll get to the bar exam because that in and
of itself has its own challengesbefore we get there, at what
point did you decide that youwanted to be a lawyer?
One of the things that I ask ourguests in the podcast is there's
usually something that happenedin in students that creates that
(01:57):
motivation or sort of thatmoment that sparks interest in
law.
What was that for you?
Nick Moustakas (02:04):
Yeah, for me, I think back to I did a high
school mock trial class and Ithink I had, an idea of wanting
to.
Potentially be a lawyer beforethen.
So I think I took that class inmy senior year of high school
and I think I had thoughts ofbeing a lawyer before then.
But of course, you don't reallyknow for sure, right?
(02:28):
I think you start to get anidea, but it's, you don't know
for sure at that point.
And I think I found thatexperience to be a lot of fun.
So I just remember, asking awitness a question on the stand
and
Miguel Sanchez (02:42):
you
Nick Moustakas (02:43):
I think it was a, I think it was a, I was cross
examining them and it went welland I was like, this is what I
wanna do.
And so I think that really iswhat kind of sparked my interest
from there.
Miguel Sanchez (02:57):
so it sounds like it started in high school,
going into college.
What, did you attend schoolafter high school?
Yeah,
Nick Moustakas (03:05):
Yeah, so I did a year at Duchess Community
College in Poughkeepsie.
I was a criminal justice major.
It didn't really, at that point,it wasn't solidified that I
wanted to go to law school.
I just, I was a criminal justicemajor.
I thought about possiblybecoming a police officer.
And then I and then Itransferred to PACE and
(03:27):
Pleasantville officer my firstyear.
And that's when I found outabout Pace's three plus three
program which I didn't end updoing, but it.
Really solidified my choice togo to law school.
So it wasn't solidified when Istarted college that I was
definitely gonna go to lawschool.
(03:47):
I didn't have that figured outtill, another year later.
But yeah.
Miguel Sanchez (03:54):
So for our listeners, the three plus three
program, and there are undergradinstitutions that.
Have these partnerships, whetherit's with the law school within
the university or even other lawschools a student can study
three years of undergrad and ifthey meet all the requirements
(04:16):
and they take the right courses,they can take their senior year
to be their first year in lawschool so that they complete law
school in a shorter.
Time.
In other words, three years ofundergrad, three years of law
school, where if they're doneseparately, it would be four
(04:37):
years of undergrad, three yearslaw school doing it.
Full-time.
And the idea is to get studentsto accelerate in some way, if
that's something that thestudent has if they wanna be
lawyers.
So you attended PACE undergradand did you work during
undergrad?
(04:57):
What was your undergradexperience like?
Nick Moustakas (05:00):
Yeah.
So for me, undergrad I, first ofall, I was a commuter, so I
commuted from here in DutchessCounty.
Down at Pleasantville.
It was about a, 45 minute drive.
So it wasn't anything crazy.
And I did work.
My dad owns a small businessthat's like seasonal work for
the first part of the schoolyear up until Around November or
(05:23):
so, I would work with him when Iwasn't in school.
And then during the winter Iwould, find a job working at a
retail store or something likethat.
Until the time for working withmy dad started again in the
spring.
Miguel Sanchez (05:37):
And what type of work does your dad do?
If he's still doing the samework or back
Nick Moustakas (05:42):
Yeah.
He owns a driveway seal coatingbusiness.
So it's a, like paving over orsteel coating over blacktop on
driveways to keep it intact andmain maintain it and help it
help the blacktop last longer.
Miguel Sanchez (05:59):
Or your parents what was when you them that you
wanted to go to law school, youstarted preparing for law
school, how did your parentssupport you or what was their
advice to you in the process?
Nick Moustakas (06:14):
Yeah, I think my parents were absolutely like.
Onboard with me the whole time.
They were always verysupportive.
I remember, in high school whenhere's a spoiler for you.
I wasn't the greatest highschool student, okay?
I just not, not that committedin high school.
Which, you're a teenager andyou're doing what you.
(06:37):
Wanna do.
And so I'll preface it withthat.
And I remember when I told myguidance counselor that I
possibly wanted to go to lawschool, my parents were there.
And I remember him, him saying Ithat might be a little
farfetched.
It might be a little out ofreach.
Miguel Sanchez (06:53):
You.
Nick Moustakas (06:54):
At the,'cause at the time, I wasn't getting into
Harvard, that's for sure.
From undergrad from high school.
I remember my parents just beingso furious with that statement
just'cause they were like, ifyou wanna do something, you can
absolutely do it.
And clearly they were right.
So they've always been verysupportive.
Miguel Sanchez (07:13):
Nick, when you, that experience you're sharing
with us, I've heard that.
Similar statement at least fourtimes now in previous episodes.
And now I'm wondering why do youthink that is?
And why do you think and thereare a lot of great guidance
counselors out there, don't getme wrong, but why would someone,
(07:33):
I guess from your perspective,why someone who's there to
support a student.
Say something like that.
Have you ever thought aboutmaybe there's something about
the way students are beingadvised what are your thoughts
about, hearing something likethat?
Nick Moustakas (07:50):
I understand why my parents were very upset about
it, but for me it just lit afire under me, I think, and
wanted to prove him wrong.
I remember a friend of mine tooI told him I wanted to go to law
school and he was like.
Come on.
And I think those kinds ofthings excite you and light a
fire under you and motivate youto prove people wrong.
(08:12):
And I think that's certainlywhat it did for me.
Now why do, why might a guidancecounselor, say that?
I think they try to find a good,happy medium of.
Motivating people, but alsokeeping expectations realistic
(08:33):
Now in high school, is thatentirely necessary to keep
expectations realistic?
I guess I think so.
You certainly don't wanna justtell someone, oh yeah, you can
just go and go to law school orgo to medical school or do
whatever.
Because they might think theydon't have to, they can do it
without putting in the hard workthat it takes to get there.
(08:54):
So I think they try to manageexpectations, if I had to guess.
But.
I'm not really sure if that, ifI had to guess, it's definitely
to keep expectations.
Well managed, at the same time,maybe they're trying to light a
fire under their people, I don'tknow.
I don't know.
I know that guidance counselor,I know him personally.
He actually does the same kindof work that my dad does during
the summer.
(09:14):
And he is a great guy and.
I remember I called him when Ifound out I got into law school
and he was like you proved mewrong.
So it was he's a good guy and Ithink he, I think it was part
him trying to motivate me.
'cause he knew me well.
He knew what motivated me.
But, also trying to manage myexpectations a little bit, which
is fair.
Miguel Sanchez (09:35):
And I, and it jumps at me because one of the
things that, that that we'veheard in past episodes is that,
the reason why I started, if youremember that moment, is because
there are specific moments inpeople's life, whether it's
something that happened to them.
if there was a person, whetherit's a mentor or in this case,
someone who who made a statementthat can really either motivate
(09:58):
someone even discourage someone.
And so that, that could go bothways.
So I'm always curious to, toknow perspectives about that.
So you going through college andyou realize that maybe the three
plus three program was not thebest fit at that point.
and before we jump into theactual application process.
(10:19):
Did you ever have any lawrelated internships during
college?
Any experiences, that sort ofgave you an insight to what it's
like to be a lawyer?
Nick Moustakas (10:32):
I didn't have any internships that were law
related in college.
I did shadow an attorney oncefor a couple of days down in
White Plains.
And, that was, it was, it was acouple days, so it wasn't a
great, real insight into whatbeing an attorney is but it was
good to see, like just what aday or two might look like.
(10:55):
So I didn't do anything beyondthat really.
I did Model un, which there,there were certainly, some
people who would be like on theboards and things like that, who
were went to law school orthings like that and, had brief
conversations with them aboutit.
One of my professors was alawyer who just graduated from
(11:15):
Case when she was teaching aclass and she knew everybody in
the class.
Was interested in going to lawschool.
So she would talk about it alot.
but yeah, those were myexperiences.
in undergrad, I didn't do any,long-term internships though.
Miguel Sanchez (11:31):
And so going into the actual law school
process.
'cause think, and again, youknow this, going through the law
school education and theprocess, it's very unique and
it's very demanding.
And I wanna make sure that wespend enough time on that
because I think that's reallyhelpful to prospective law
students, especially first genwho don't know what to expect
and just don't know what it'slike to go to law school and to
(11:52):
go through that process.
So you decide to go to lawschool and.
What was the har, what was the,I guess the cha the, what was
the hardest piece of preparingfor law school?
Is it the lsat?
Is it deciding where you'regonna go?
What was the biggest challengebefore getting into law school?
Nick Moustakas (12:13):
Yeah, so I think as far as challenges.
Where I wanted to go wasdefinitely the lowest on the
list.
Just'cause I, I went to Pace, Iwas, I liked Pace and I knew the
head of law school and I was, Iwanted to do the three, three
program for a while.
It wasn't until Covid happenedthat, I decided it was best to
(12:36):
just hold off.
wait till there.
I'll wait till I graduate andthen I, hopefully be in person
for my first year.
So
Miguel Sanchez (12:44):
because
Nick Moustakas (12:44):
I wanted to do the three three program pace was
always like my top choice, just'cause the, the three three
program was always there.
So that was definitely the, onthe low end of stressors for
preparing for law school.
At least for me, I think thehighest, the highest stressor,
the highest challenge.
The biggest challenge was thelsat, I think for me.
(13:06):
I didn't do any kind ofcommercial tutoring or anything
like that.
I really just, Taught myself forthe most part.
I remember I did a, like a oneor two night quick little trial
course at pace, I think.
And that was helpful.
(13:26):
But the LSAT's tough andespecially teaching yourself was
difficult.
And, I was just trying to getwhatever score I needed to.
Get into law school.
It was a tough challenge to, toget there and to do the practice
over and over again when you'rejust, some of those things, some
(13:50):
of those questions just, I haveno idea what I was doing, so
that was definitely the biggestchallenge for me.
Miguel Sanchez (13:56):
And after you take the lsat, you think you're
done.
And then you law school and yourealize you have to continue
putting all those hours intostudying.
and then we'll talk about thatin a moment.
how was the day beforeorientation?
Was it something like, ah, I'mjust gonna go, or were there
concerns, or maybe, hesitations,nervous?
(14:18):
What did that night beforeorientation look like for you?
Nick Moustakas (14:22):
Yeah, I'll tell you this.
I remember the weekend before Iwent out to to the Hamptons with
my now fiance and her family.
They, her uncle, I think, renteda house for the weekend or
something like that and invitedus to go, which was very nice.
And I remember on Saturday therewas a
Miguel Sanchez (14:42):
huge
Nick Moustakas (14:44):
storm coming in and they were, I think, telling
people to evacuate because itwas gonna be real bad.
And that's Saturday and myorientation's Monday.
I was planning on leaving Sundaymorning and I'm like, I gotta
get outta here.
'cause if I get stuck here and Imiss my orientation, it's gonna
be a disaster.
So I left I left like Saturdayaround two o'clock and it, I
(15:09):
didn't get home till about 10:00PM and that's from.
The Hamptons to Poughkeepsie.
It shouldn't take you eighthours to get home.
But there was so much trafficbecause everybody was, people
were evacuating there, just, itjust took forever.
So anyway, that was two daysbefore, but the day before, I
think I was just trying tofigure out what I needed to.
(15:31):
Due, there was some homeworkthat they asked us to complete
before we went, That I still hadto get done.
So it was a lot of that, a lotof kind of rereading through
everything, making sure I was,felt prepared to go in.
And and, just letting the nervespull down a little bit.
Miguel Sanchez (15:51):
So you go to the process of orientation and
then you, and you might rememberthat it's very general and a lot
of people speaking and givingyou support and advice to start
your education.
But then really, and so from myexperience I see that into the
second or third week, maybe themonth in of your first semester.
(16:13):
That's when.
In my experience, I see people'sfaces change.
A lot of them seem concerned orworried or just stressed because
now they're really going throughthe readings and the classes, et
cetera.
what point in your firstsemester did you realize this is
unlike anything I've done?
Or was it like unlike anythingyou've done, what was that sort
(16:34):
of realization that this is morethan just undergrad, it's
requires more time.
Nick Moustakas (16:40):
Driving home from orientation the very first.
day.
It was, I was going through it.
I was like, I was ready to, Iwas already ready to leave.
Miguel Sanchez (16:50):
Oh
Nick Moustakas (16:50):
I left orientation, literally the first
day of orientation thinking thisis just not for me.
And.
Miguel Sanchez (16:57):
and
Nick Moustakas (16:59):
I think, the people they brought in to speak
were all very, good.
And, they brought in studentswhich was good.
Gave you some good insight forme.
That insight just scared thehell outta me.
And I thought this was justgonna be crazy, right?
I didn't understand how the,there was the curve, right?
Miguel Sanchez (17:22):
And
Nick Moustakas (17:22):
That scares everybody.
And they really pushed on howthere all, there's all these
readings every night, you'regonna have all these readings.
And it really just, I think,scared me a bit.
And I didn't think I could keepup with all of that.
(17:43):
Yeah, it was the leavingorientation that I was like, oh
man, what did I get myself into?
Miguel Sanchez (17:49):
There are instances when, working in
admissions, I've seen.
people who will drop and theyjust decide, this is definitely
not for me.
And we understand why when youstarted going through your
classes and doing your readings,were you one of those students
who studied as a group?
(18:11):
Did you study on your own?
How did you get and push throughthat?
The material and the readings,because the readings the, forget
about the time you spendreading, but the readings
themselves are just verychallenging because it's, the
language is that it's verydifferent.
was that process of gettingthrough being successful?
Was it mostly on your own?
Did you rely on other peers,Dean, scholars?
(18:32):
What was that process like foryou?
Nick Moustakas (18:34):
Yeah.
So for me, I was definitely, Idefinitely read on my own,
studied on my own.
Frankly, during my whole firstsemester, honestly, I was a foot
out the door.
I was not planning on going backafter the first semester, so I
really didn't put in.
(18:55):
The effort that I should haveduring my first semester.
And so I ended up waiting a longtime to start studying for
finals, which I, any perspectivefirst year law students, please
don't do that.
It's just not in your bestinterests, in my opinion.
(19:16):
It worked out fine.
I was able to push through andget it done and I did.
Good enough consideringconsidering that I waited so
long to start studying.
But that was a challenge,waiting till the end to realize
that, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonnastay, it wasn't until probably
two weeks before finals that Iwas committed to staying after
(19:39):
the first semester.
And so I, so that's when Idecided to put in the effort.
But.
That was the biggest part, wasjust, finding, okay, how do I do
enough to just get by here Atleast and save face because like
I said, I was a foot out thedoor the whole time.
Miguel Sanchez (19:57):
When through this process of, doubting and,
maybe leaving law school acertain point, did you
communicate that to yourparents?
How was that?
Nick Moustakas (20:08):
Yeah, so I was.
Completely open about it.
I told my fiance I was my, nowmy now fiance, she was, we
weren't engaged at the time, butI told her, I, I think I'm done.
I told my parents, I'm done.
I'm not doing this.
This is crazy.
It's not gonna work out.
And they were just, verysupportive.
(20:29):
Frankly, they were, they said,oh, if you don't think you, you
can do it, then don't do it.
Don't make a decision thatyou're gonna regret later on.
But they reassured me that theyweren't telling me that because
they also thought I couldn't doit.
It was, they wanted me to knowthey knew I had the ability to
(20:55):
push through and to, it'll goaway eventually.
These scary feelings will goaway eventually.
And eventually you'll find yourfooting and you'll hit a groove
and it'll all be okay.
And they were a hundred percentbut they were completely
supportive if I wanted to makethe choice to, to not go through
with it.
Miguel Sanchez (21:16):
something that I hear from students, especially
as they go into their secondyear.
I don't know that it happensgoing into your second year,
your 2L Year year, but for manystudents that's when I notice
it.
In some ways it somethingclicks, and wanna say there's
some sort of like magic, I don'twanna put it that way, but
(21:38):
there's something that happensin the process that you finally
get it it seems lessoverwhelming than it was during
your first semester.
What would you say for you wasthat moment, or what do you
think clicked that you felt?
Okay, I understand you mentionedgetting to a groove.
When did you feel like you had abetter understanding of what was
(21:59):
going on
Nick Moustakas (22:01):
Like you said, It was.
the very beginning of my twoyear?
Miguel Sanchez (22:06):
Even during
Nick Moustakas (22:07):
My second semester of my first year, it
was still new.
I think I enjoyed the classes alittle more.
I think I found the classes moreinteresting.
I think I, what is it nearsecond semester?
It's contracts, property CommLaw, and le and, legal writing.
I think I found those topics alittle more interesting and they
(22:29):
jelled with me a little more.
But it wasn't until my secondsemester, my second year, first
semester that I felt extremelycomfortable.
I was taking evidence withProfessor Griffin and.
It just clicked with me.
Evidence just clicked with meand it was the first class that
(22:52):
I felt like I knew what I wasdoing.
It's just something about theway you applied the rules that
just felt natural to me.
And it just worked.
It just clicked in my brain andI was able to.
Take that confidence and buildon it.
And my grades greatly improvedfrom my from my first year.
(23:15):
And I really think evidence waslike the first class that gave
me some confidence to, to thinkokay, I can do this.
Like I was completelycomfortable at that point.
Miguel Sanchez (23:26):
For our prospective students or just
anybody who may be interested inlaw school.
Nick mentioned a few courses andas a one LE as a one L student
in the first year, one L firstyear, we use the terms
interchangeably.
You are assigned the sameclasses and everyone takes the
same courses.
(23:47):
They are the foundationalcourses that not only are and
are vital for law school, butthey're also part of the bar
exam, which, we'll, I wannatouch on that in a moment.
And then second and third year,you start taking courses that
interest you depending on whatyou wanna pursue or just general
electives that you wanna learnabout different topics.
(24:08):
And on that note, and we haven'ttalked about this yet, what area
of law.
Were you interested at the timeand are you practicing the area
of law that you came in thinkingabout, what was that process of
deciding, what interests, whatarea of law versus what you're
doing now?
(24:29):
Yeah,
Nick Moustakas (24:29):
so I think when I came into law school I wanted
to do corporate law stuff Ithink I found it interesting
and.
How that translated.
Now I work in a general practicefirm we handle everything which
includes some corporate work.
So I, I do, we do real estate.
(24:49):
We do estate administration,estate planning municipal law
just kind of everything, right?
It's not what I imagined doing,like when I first came to law
school to an extent, but I don'tknow.
If many people stay on the same,
Miguel Sanchez (25:09):
mm-hmm.
Nick Moustakas (25:10):
do the same, follow the path that they wanted
to do.
I don't know why I wanted to docorporate law, frankly.
I think it just sounded great,but yeah, I didn't end up
following that path, but I thinkthat's, I think that's extremely
common.
Miguel Sanchez (25:24):
No, it's more common than even when I came in,
into the admissions world.
I've heard, and even recently aswe are preparing the next class,
is I wanna pursue this area oflaw and the very, very keen on
it and I'm glad to see that.
And we often do just advise,hey, that might be an interest
that will stick with you.
(25:46):
But also be open-minded to otherpractices as you go through law
school for many reasons.
It could be just the economy isnot favorable to the area of law
that you're interested, or youmight just find other interests
as you take classes or as youmeet professors.
One of the things that I wannaemphasize, and I wanna get your
take on this, how was theprocess of mentorship?
(26:09):
Because that is a big, I findthat's a big element that.
Help students get through lawschool, especially as a first
gen student.
What was the process and how didyou find mentors in law school?
Who did you go to for supportwhen you needed additional
guidance?
Nick Moustakas (26:28):
That's a great question.
I didn't, I had a great mentor.
I had Stephanie Dedo.
She was she teaches in the ASAPprogram and she, and the bar
classes and things like that.
I remember I had a class withher during my second year, my
first semester.
And I knew that she wasknowledgeable on kind of the
(26:52):
whole.
Overall law school experience.
She wasn't, it was like aprofessor who was teaching one
of the big classes who, she wasa good mentor in just talking
about the process.
And I think she was great.
She was always there to take aquestion when I had it.
So she was a good mentor.
(27:12):
And then I also think I had afriend who is from the same area
as me in Duchess County.
We were in law school together.
We met during our orientationweek.
And he had a similar kind ofexperience as me, I think,
where, he was the firstgeneration law student didn't
(27:33):
know many.
Miguel Sanchez (27:35):
attorney.
Nick Moustakas (27:36):
And so he was always good to just talk to
about, like all that's going on,like all the experiences that we
were experiencing together.
'cause we took a lot of classestogether and just, not.
Being it was good to have afriend that was in a similar
spot.
So he wasn't, I wouldn't say hewas a mentor, but it was just a
(27:57):
great person to talk to about,all the new experiences.
'cause like I said we reallyjust
Miguel Sanchez (28:03):
were
Nick Moustakas (28:05):
not experience at all with Knowing attorneys or
networking and things like that.
So it was good to, to have thatperson as well.
Miguel Sanchez (28:14):
One of the things that I've noticed about
students as far as buildingcamaraderie, all law students
are sectioned.
In other words, when you arrive,have the class, whether it's a
hundred ten, two hundred ten,whatever the number is, and
you're typically divided intosections.
And that's a common practice inall law schools.
(28:37):
And I find that students who arein the same section tend to
really bond.
Especially with sharedexperiences and that bond goes
even after law school and you gothrough your process and then
there's a bar exam, so yougraduate.
You have that moment ofattending commencement and
celebrating with your families.
But then unlike other graduatedegrees, it doesn't end there.
(29:00):
There's still the bar exam ifyou want to practice law and
that usually it's shortly aftergraduation.
Tell me about your bar prepprocess, because that in and of
itself, it's a big deal.
It your ability to practice lawreally hangs on that.
the bar preparation like for youand how was that those moments
(29:22):
leading up to taking the barexam?
Nick Moustakas (29:26):
Yeah, so for me was a little unorthodox.
I knew that the first year.
Subjects were not going to be mystrong suit.
like I said, I was a foot outthe door right for at least the
first semester, and I just was,I felt that I did not have a
(29:48):
good grasp on those subjects.
So I started as soon as the barcourses opened up in March.
And it wasn't just it wasn'tjust, do a little bit here and
do a little bit there I wasfull-time pretty much.
To the extent I could be while Iwas still in class.
We had about a month left or so,so I was when I wasn't in
(30:08):
school, I was studying for thebar.
That was about late March, Ithink.
And for people that don't know,typically you start around
graduation, which is towards theend of May, mid.
And it's about 10 weeks ofstudying, but I just knew I was
going to spend a lot of time onthose subjects that I, that
(30:29):
those core subjects that Ididn't, that I just didn't feel
confident in.
And and so I started prettyearly.
And the good part of that was itgave me a ton of time to be
comfortable with.
Not understanding something,having to go back and relearn it
if I needed to.
(30:49):
And I felt, by the end of it, Ijust felt like I, I couldn't do
any more, and not from a beingtired standpoint, but just I
just didn't know what else to doanymore.
Like I've, I had just done somuch by the last, week before
the test, I.
I just ran out of things.
(31:10):
I was starting to do essays overagain and things like that
because I was, I just overprepared, but I was happy that I
did.
Miguel Sanchez (31:20):
this, what you are describing is really
important and how, startingyour, you basically, you started
Bar Prep, as you said, muchearlier than what's typical.
that is a big point because youknew where your needed to
improve.
And so that's a good way toapproach it because there,
(31:43):
there's students that could say,Hey, I'll Bar Prep will take
care of that for me.
But it's really important thatas a mature person to say, Hey,
I really struggle in this part.
I need to address it becausechallenging about the bar among.
Besides the content itself isyou sit for the bar exam if you
(32:04):
take it in July, and then youdon't get your score until
October or November, October,November.
So you have all those monthswhere you're just waiting and
you don't know what's gonnahappen, then if you don't pass,
then you have to go through theprocess again.
the winter.
So taking that approach wasreally smart.
And then, and all of you who arelistening make a special note to
(32:26):
that, that when you're in lawschool, be very frank and honest
with yourself and say, Hey, thisis what I need to work on.
And do it as we get to as, as westart closing.
Nick, one of the things thatI've, I hear regularly, and I
heard this yesterday duringcommencement, the idea that law
school.
(32:46):
a transformative experience.
do you think law schooltransform you
Nick Moustakas (32:54):
In a lot of ways definitely not the same one.
I think I'm, I think I'm alittle more serious than I was
for better or for worse, whoknows, but that's one thing I,
and I, and the other is that Ithink I, they tell you it's
gonna happen.
You don't think it's gonnahappen.
(33:15):
It happens, I think differently.
I really do.
And I can't explain it.
Maybe it's more analytical.
You look at everything with aquestion mark in your head.
You question everything.
At least I, do.
I look at every situation and Ilook at both sides, and I think
it really.
(33:36):
Does law school really does dothat?
I think it's just gotta be thecases.
Reading those cases you see justhow the judges write.
They're for the most part, theyusually, they analyze both sides
when the judges write opinions.
I think that just trains you toalways look at it like that.
(33:57):
So I think that's definitelysomething where, you know, it
just, it changes the way youthink.
They tell you it's going tohappen.
You always hear it and you'relike, no, what do you mean it's
gonna change the way I think.
What does that even mean?
And it does, you thinkdifferently.
Miguel Sanchez (34:13):
What was your favorite part law school?
Nick Moustakas (34:19):
I think one learning was.
is just.
Fun gosh, go and tell highschool me that, he is probably
laugh in your face.
But it's fun.
I found the materialinteresting.
And then I, the other thing wasbeing a dean scholar, I was a
dean scholar for evidence in mylast year.
And that was probably like justthe best experience that I had
(34:41):
during law school.
Itself, I, I also Intern at thefirm that I work at now, and
that was a fantastic experienceas well.
But as far as like in school,being a Dean Scholar was my
favorite part.
I just loved teaching thesubject, evidence.
It was by far my favoritesubject.
I, and I was passionate about,helping other people learn it.
(35:04):
Who, evidence is a hard subjectfor a lot of people.
It's, they don't, for me, Ithought it was, it just clicked
in my brain.
For other people it does theopposite.
And I loved helping other peoplelearn how to get it to click.
Miguel Sanchez (35:22):
what is a Dean scholar?
Nick Moustakas (35:24):
So Dean Scholar is someone who, it holds
sessions each week for aparticular professor and a
particular subject.
So typically your professors andyour, especially in your first
year will you'll only have themfor one subject.
So all my professors weredifferent in my first year.
So each professor has a deanscholar for a particular class.
(35:47):
So for me, I was ProfessorGriffin's evidence Dean Scholar.
And they hold a weekly weeklysession or two weekly sessions
where the class can attend andyou go over the material, that
was covered the week prior tohelp reinforce that material and
to answer any questions thatpeople would feel.
Nervous about asking theprofessor.
(36:08):
'cause they can, there's 75people typically I think, around
in each class, people will getnervous about asking a question
in front of everyone or askingthe professor a question.
So people will come and, ask askquestions or, We'd go over the
material.
We would do hypos to, make surewe're understanding the
material.
And that's the gist of it, likea, like a class tutor is how I
(36:31):
would describe it.
Miguel Sanchez (36:32):
Great.
For those of you who areconsidering pace Dean Scholar is
actually very unique to Pace andit's one of the ways that we
support our studentsacademically.
And what do you miss about lawschool?
Now you're working, and Isuppose you're not doing a lot
of studying.
Maybe you're doing professionaldevelopment and stuff, but what
do you miss about.
Law school generally?
Nick Moustakas (36:55):
I think the, I'm learning every day at work,
right?
Because I'm.
A new attorney.
Every day is a new, I'm learningsomething new.
Whether it's aboutprofessionalism or how to how to
be a better writer or just fromexperience.
(37:15):
I have very experiencedattorneys that, that I work
with.
So I do learn every day, butit's a, but I've missed I do the
really intellectual Learningpart of law school.
I think learning a new subjectis fun.
Especially when you have a greatprofessor.
There's just, you are, you'renot, I wouldn't say you're
(37:39):
excited to go to class, let's behonest, but you don't mind going
to that class, that's a greatthing.
And I miss that.
Learning a new subject andgetting it, understanding it,
that's a great feeling.
When it clicks, a lot of lawschool classes, and this is good
information for people who areconsidering it's not like in, in
(38:03):
undergrad and like in highschool, you do things by units.
You do that in law school too,but in law school, for me at
least the whole semester, you'rejust like, how is this gonna fit
together?
Like high school and undergrad,the units are like all separate
and they really don't all fittogether in the end.
(38:25):
And so you can understand eachindividual unit as you go.
But in law school, I, at leastin my experience, the whole
semester, you are justwondering.
What in the world is going onand then you're, then you study
for your finals and all of asudden you see how all of these
(38:47):
things intertwine and you zoomout and you understand it.
Maybe during the semester youwere just like, I don't
understand what in the worldthis means.
I don't get this.
And then at the end it all fitslike a puzzle.
It's.
And it's a good feeling when youfinally get to that point and
(39:10):
you did all your studying andyou feel confident going into a
test and you just understand itall.
That's a great, that's a greatfeeling.
I.
Miguel Sanchez (39:18):
I like how you explained it that when you look
at it individually zooming in,you don't get to see how it
fits.
But once you zoom out and seethe big picture, then you see
how it fits and maybe you seepatterns.
And that's great because forthose who are considering law
school or who are going throughlaw school.
(39:40):
It's important to have thatfocus, but also step back and
take a mindful approach.
Not a mindful, but really anintentional approach of, let me
see how this all fits in, and beintentional about it so that you
don't just get stuck and thenyou don't see where this is
going.
And maybe that could be a reasonwhy many students get frustrated
(40:01):
and even end up leaving.
So I'm glad you mentioned that.
To close, Nick, what does thefuture look like?
Nick Moustakas (40:08):
Yeah.
So I think, like I said, thefirm I work at, I, the attorneys
are the, just, there's a lot ofexperience there.
And they're great to work with.
And I, I hope I'm I plan to bepeer for a long time at this
firm.
There's a lot of growthpotential and just a lot to
learn from from some verywell-respected attorneys.
(40:31):
So I think, for me, I think asfar as growth, like I, I just, I
want to get to the point where Ifeel.
I totally know what I'm doing.
I think it's normal when youstart anything.
And I've been there for alittle, a little less than a
year now, but you're still newand you're still new to practice
and I just hope, I can grow intoa better, a great lawyer and a
(40:55):
complete lawyer who's, versed.
And I think the.
People who work at this firmget, definitely give me the
opportunity to do that.
Because that's how I woulddescribe how I would describe
the partners at this firm arejust, complete attorneys.
They're not just good at onething or focus on one thing.
They have a lot of experienceand a lot of things, and I hope
(41:17):
to to learn from them.
Miguel Sanchez (41:20):
Nick, thank you again.
I'm so happy that you sharedyour experiences and you were so
open.
I'm glad that during thosemoments when you felt like were
ready to quit, that you didn't,and you now you're seeing how
worth it was for you to stick itout for the three years and
through the bar exam.
So Nick, thank you very much.
I appreciate your time.
(41:40):
For those of you listening,thank you for following and
watch out for the next episode.
Thank you, Nick.
Nick Moustakas (41:46):
Thank you.
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