April 10, 2025 • 56 mins
Mark Heartfield, a Class A PGA member since 1986 and former Director of Golf at Sankaty Golf Club, shares his teaching philosophy and career journey spanning over three decades in golf. His approach emphasizes understanding each player's unique swing characteristics rather than imposing a system, helping students realize their full potential through personalized instruction and course management strategies.
• Started playing golf at 15, played collegiately at Stetson University, and turned professional immediately after graduation
• Worked at prestigious clubs including Hyannisport, Plymouth Country Club, Baltusrol (under Bob Ross), and 33 years at Sankity Head
• Believes teaching should be individualized rather than system-based, saying "it's all a puzzle to try to solve"
• Begins lessons with comprehensive assessment including questionnaire and TrackMan yardage session
• Uses sports analogies to help students understand swing mechanics (tennis forehand for golf swing)
• Encourages young players to continue playing multiple sports through high school
• Teaches putting with emphasis on routine, alignment with a line on the ball, and distance control
• Recommends creative practice like the "kiss the fringe" drill for lag putting improvement
• Shares personal battle with melanoma and importance of sun protection on the course
• Advocates for simplicity in teaching, avoiding overly technical jargon that confuses students
For more information about Mark Heartfield, visit www.markheartfield.com or find him at The Ridge Club on Cape Cod.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another edition of the Flag
Hunters Golf Podcast.
I am your host, jesse Perriman,along with my brother from
another mother, justin Tang,welcoming you to this spring
edition of the Flag Hunters GolfPodcast.
And this week we have a greatepisode, one of my favorites
really.
(00:21):
It's really an enrichingconversation with Justin, myself
and a fellow by the name ofMark Hartfield.
Mark has been a Class A PGAmember since 1986.
He spent 33 seasons at theSankity Head Golf Club as a
director of golf quite a longtime and he is now the current
(00:41):
director of instruction at theRidge Club.
So we want to really honorthose head professionals and
directors of instruction thathave been at it for a long time,
that have been really thestewards of the game, passing
down information that theylearned from previous
generations, generations and toteach us currently and to plant
(01:10):
great seeds moving forward forfuture generations to not only
play golf at a high level but tothoroughly enjoy this game and
to really realize the best thatwe can be, or at least realize
what our intentions are, andMark epitomizes that.
At least realize what ourintentions are.
And Mark epitomizes that.
When I think of a head pro,mark is that prototype that
really exemplifies all of thethings that I just described.
(01:33):
So I'm not going to give toomuch away here in the
introduction, but I want to giveMark a big thanks for coming on
and being patient with adelayed release.
We recorded this in March andthis intro is being recorded.
Master's Week Happy Master'sWeek everyone.
So if you want more informationabout Mark and I would
(01:54):
encourage you to do so please goto MarkHartfieldcom.
It's just like it sounds.
It's all one word.
He is a wealth of informationand you're going to hear it here
, and both Justin and Ithoroughly enjoyed chatting with
Mark.
We enjoyed making hisacquaintance and I'm sure that
we're going to continue to be incontact with him moving forward
(02:14):
in the future.
And also a big thanks and ashout-out to Mizuno Golf and
Gemma Max Grips.
Cheers everyone and have afantastic week.
Hello, this is Jesse Perrimanof the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast
(02:47):
.
Welcome you to another editionwith my friend, my brother, from
all the way around the world.
His name is Justin Tang.
He is an instructor at theTanamera Golf Club in Singapore,
and our guest today is MarkHartfield.
He is the director ofinstruction at the Ridge Club in
a very cold and blustery CapeCod this time of year, this time
as we're approaching the secondweek of March.
(03:08):
Mark, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Thanks for having me, Jesse and Justin.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Hey, thanks Matt for coming on.
You're Cape Cod's swing doctor,golf Digest's top teacher.
Thank you for gracing us withyour presence.
Can you share with ourlisteners how you got into golf?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, I started actually at the age of 15.
It was my sophomore year ofhigh school.
I tried out for the golf team,didn't make the varsity team,
played on the JV team and I justfell in love with the game.
I was a tennis player prior tothat.
By the time I was a senior, Iwas captain of the high school
(03:52):
team and I ended up going toStetson University in Florida,
which is a very small DivisionOne school in Florida.
I played there all 40 years inFlorida.
I played there all four years.
Sam Ryder actually graduatedfrom Stetson and I was there all
(04:17):
four years and we had a prettygood team.
We were competing against theFlorida Florida States Miami's
of the world, which was a littleout of our league, but we had a
good team and it was a lot offun.
The day I graduated from StetsonI turned professional and I
actually moved to the Cape and Iwas the assistant pro at the
Hyannisport Club, which is abeautiful Donald Ross course on
(04:41):
the Cape.
It's the home of where theKennedys, jfk, lived in the
summers.
The Kennedy family is stillthere in the summers and so
pretty affluent club.
And then, after I was onlythere one year, I ended up going
to another Donald Ross course,plymouth Country Club.
I was there for two years andafter Plymouth I went to Neshada
(05:06):
Country Club in Concord, mass.
They used to host the DigitalSeniors Championship, one of the
senior tour events in NewEngland, and following that I
kind of got the break of my golflife.
I was hired by a gentleman namedBob Ross who was one of my
mentors.
(05:26):
Bob was probably the best knownhead professional in the
country, had a great reputationfor moving staff on to their own
jobs and he was a fine player,teacher, merchandiser of the
Year, teacher, merchandiser ofthe Year, professional of the
Year just a great guy to workfor, very well-rounded.
(05:58):
And I got a lucky break andworked for him for two years and
after the second year I washired for a small 33 year career
.
Loved every minute of it and my.
On the very final year my 34thyear actually I was put in a
(06:21):
position to be the executivedirector of the US Mid-Am, the
US Mid-Am.
We hosted the US Mid-Am and itwas kind of cool because it was
our club's 100-year anniversaryand it was just a great way to
go out.
So then I retired from there.
I'm a member there now, whichwas a nice treat.
They gave me a membership.
(06:43):
I get to go back whenever Iwant to play.
And then this job where I amtoday at the Ridge Club, kind of
fell in my lap and I'm lovingevery minute of it.
It's really where my passionhas always been, in teaching, so
I'm happy to be at the RidgeClub.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You missed.
You missed one point.
Baltus Roll, you were theassistant professional.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, no, that's where Bob Ross hired me.
I'm sorry I might not mentionthe club name, but Bob was the
head pro at Baltus Roll and justthe best guy.
So that's a Tillinghast course.
They have 36 holes, so kind ofgoing from the Donald Ross
courses to a Tillinghast course.
They have 36 holes, so kind ofgoing from the Donald Ross
courses to the Tillinghastcourse.
I've been pretty fortunate inthe clubs where I've worked.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
There must have been some really interesting things
that you saw during your time atBaltusro.
What were some of the highprofile tournaments that were
held there?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
what were some of the high profile tournaments that
were held there.
So during my two years there,um, we had hosted the uh us
women's open the year before Iarrived, um, so then they had a
little pause in betweentournaments, so unfortunately I
wasn't there during any of thethe major championships that
they had.
But, um, they're right up therein the in hosting the most
majors of any club in thecountry.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
You mentioned that you are a very high level tennis
player.
Did tennis help you in learninggolf or did you learn it?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
concurrently and I wouldn't say I was a high level
player.
I was a pretty good juniortennis player.
I stopped playing when I fellin love with golf at 15.
So the similarities I see, andI actually use this quite a bit
in my teaching.
I think for a right-handedplayer, a forehand top spin in
(08:43):
tennis is actually very similar,uh, to a golf swing.
And, um, anybody that I know iscoming to me for a lesson that
is a tennis player.
I seem to always go thatdirection.
Um, and I know, um, uh, a lotof really good tennis players
end up going to play golf.
Um, um, I don't know if you'veever seen that is not pretty,
(09:09):
but I guess he's prettyeffective with it and it looks
like he's hitting a top spinwith his with his t-shot yeah, I
think he's a scratch player, atleast close to it yeah, um, I
did get to know uh and play withuh Yvonne Lendl quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Whoa, that's a classic.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, he actually had aspirations of becoming a tour
player, yeah, and he got veryclose and he has a couple of
daughters that ended up beingvery good junior players as well
.
So, yeah, I think the sportsrelate to each other very well
so we can already get a glimpseof your teaching philosophy.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
You kind of relate the golf swing to a student's
experience in prior sports.
Is there an assumption?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I I do.
That's a good assumption.
I've worked with some hockeyplayers.
Actually Bobby Orr was a memberat our club, the Ridge Club.
He just moved out last, at theend of last summer.
We have the whole Kachuk familythat are top players there.
(10:21):
I think a lot of hockey playershave similar emotions to golf
and even just the release pointsand things like that, they know
how to generate the speed andthe power.
Obviously there's quite a fewbaseball players that are also
good golfers.
So it's that baseball pitcheror Tom Brady throwing a football
(10:50):
.
They know how to generate thespeed and the power.
So I think players that grow upplaying all kinds of sports
I've had a couple of dads say doyou think he should stop
playing basketball because he'sreally falling in love with golf
(11:11):
?
Absolutely not.
Let his legs get stronger, letthe athletic motion take over.
I think playing other sports isa very positive aspect.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Could you expand a little bit on when juniors
should specialize?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I would say even all the way through high school.
I would continue playing allthe way through high school.
If you want to go away and playon a division one collegiate
team, that could be the time tostart to put the other sports
aside.
If somebody is a extremely highlevel golfer, maybe you want to
(11:56):
just do it.
Stop because of avoiding injury.
But I find nothing wrong withplaying other sports because
it's strengthening other bodyparts that we use for golf.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Well, I guess some tour pros also maintain their
enthusiasm for fishing.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Oh, I love to fish.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
That's good for the throwing motion of the trail.
Yeah, absolutely.
Good for the throwing motion ofthe trail.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Could we expand a little bit onyour philosophy?
If Jesse and I would come toyou for lessons, what?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
can we expect from Mark Hartfield?
So I would love to I alwaysstart off, by the way, with the
assessment of trying to get toknow the student.
I have a whole sheet made up ofquestions that, like one of
them would be the sportsquestion Do you play other
sports and do you have anyinjuries, and what's your
(13:00):
current handicap and what's youraspiration of in the game?
You know what's your aspirationof in the game.
You know what are your goals.
And then I want to learn alittle bit about their shot
patterns.
And do you hit it left to rightor right to left?
I want to know what theirfavorite part of the game is and
their least favorite part ofthe game.
So it's a pretty extensivequestionnaire.
(13:21):
And then I I also like to do atrack man session with them to
understand their yardages.
I just call it a track manyardage session.
It takes like 45 minutes.
I let each student hit shotsuntil and they go all the way
from lob wedge all the way upthrough driver, and when they
(13:44):
tell me that they hit a reallysolid shot, that's the one that
I'm going to record, and Irecord their carry distance as
well as their total distance.
I don't think enough people payattention to the carry distance
.
At the Ridge Club we have a lotof false fronts and elevated
(14:07):
greens.
I think we have 12 of the 18holes that have elevated greens.
So if you're not carrying theball up onto the putting surface
, it's coming back down the hilland hitting those false fronts.
So they learn a lot about that.
They all think they hit theball further than they do with
(14:28):
every club.
So it's a little enlighteningsometimes to share that
information with them.
But but it's part of my initialassessment.
And then I use TrackMan onalmost every lesson, and not
necessarily because I need to, Ilike to.
I think it's a.
It's almost like having twoteachers at the same time.
(14:51):
For me it's just backing up mywhat I'm seeing with my eyes.
I use video as well and then Ilook at shot patterns and and my
.
Basically, my philosophy toanswer your question is if
somebody's slicing it too much,I want to get them to learn how
to hook it.
If they're hooking it too much,I want to teach them how to
(15:13):
slice it, and my goal I call itkind of counterbalancing You're
too far this way, you're too farthat way.
I'm always trying to zoom in onuh, on the target, and hope
that those track band numbersstart to show some improvement.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
What you just said in the last three minutes
resonates so much with us.
I've seen so so many high levelcoaches just screen their
players like oh, your trackmannumbers.
Xyz, four sizes, there's sportsboxes.
You gotta do this without evenunderstanding how those numbers
(15:50):
came about, like what DavidLedbetter used to say.
It says track man tells you thepath is five degrees inside out
, but it doesn't tell you how itgot there.
And you still need to educate,still need to understand what
the students intentions are andwhat he's doing to create the in
(16:12):
to out path.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, so I think there's the, the what is
happening, the how is ithappening, and then our goal as
instructors is why is ithappening?
And trying to figure out thewhy is the hard part, but it's
the most important part as well.
So I kind of pride myself ontrying to solve that puzzle.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
You mentioned another thing that really strikes deep,
with Jesse and I solving thepuzzle.
A lot of lesser golf pros don'tthink that the golf swing is a
puzzle to be solved.
They think all they need to dois to shoebox players into a
(16:57):
particular method.
It could be theright-sidedsided swing,
left-sided swing or the thecenter post swing, for example
right.
Can you elaborate a little biton the differences between a
system or framework versus amethod?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
well, I am so not a system teacher.
I like to look at what eachindividual does, look at their
body types I don't measure, bythe way, I probably should and
keep in mind transitioning frombeing a head professional at
Syncity to now a director ofinstruction I mean, you wear so
(17:37):
many hats as a head professionaland I didn't have the time when
I was there, and it's a busy,busy place In the summer.
I'm there for seven months inthe summer and it's busy, so
I've got my hand in everything.
I also own the golf shop there,which was was great, but it's
so time consuming.
(17:58):
And now to be able to put allmy energy into instruction and
learn more about instruction,this is my passion and I have
fallen in love with teaching andI study it like nobody else
studies it.
I use Sportsbox.
I'm not an expert at it, so Ihesitate to use it a little bit,
(18:20):
but I want to learn more aboutthe biomechanics and sequencing
and things like that which I'mstudying now.
But yeah, I think it's all.
It's all a puzzle to try to tryto solve and I'm just.
I'm learning, I think, everysingle day.
I want to show you a picture ofwhy, why I don't think he can
(18:41):
have a system.
Can you guys see that?
Yes, sir.
So look at the difference.
I'll go to the top one first.
Look at the difference in thosethree swings, right.
And then these were the fourguys that when COVID first came
back, they started showing golfon TV.
This was the event at Seminole.
(19:03):
And those happen to be the fourplayers Matt Wolfe, dustin
Johnson, rory McIlroy and RickyFowler.
All so different and you can'ttake a model and put those four
guys into a model You'd probablydestroy.
Of the seven pictures modelyou'd destroy.
You'd probably destroy.
Of the seven pictures there,you'd destroy six of them.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Hang on, just for clarity's sake for our listeners
.
What Mark was showing us was apicture of seven tour pros at
the top of their backstrings,every one of them different from
each other.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yes, yeah.
So that to me, is part of thepuzzle that we're trying to
solve.
And doing match.
I call them matchups.
You know, if somebody has areally strong grip, most likely
they're going to be more of arotator, and if somebody's got a
weak grip, they're going torelease it a little bit more.
(19:59):
So these are all the littledifferences that I look at when
I assess somebody for the firsttime and then I told you about,
you know, somebody's hitting ittoo far right.
If we can get them to learn howto hit a draw.
I call it you've probably heardthis before, but it's the
Goldilocks theory You're too farright, I'm going to get you too
(20:21):
far left, or we're going tofind it just right.
So and same with trajectorySomebody hits it too high, the
next guy hits it too low.
And, by the way, my game wentfrom think of being on an island
.
For 33 years I spent everywinter in Florida.
I had two head pro jobs downthere as well.
For 20 years I went back andforth and doing the wind and
(20:44):
wind, and wind.
And now you go somewhere whereit's not windy and my whole
trajectory changes.
So it's kind of fun being ableto work with people that hit at
different trajectories anddifferent curvatures and, and
you know, just trying to, I justtry to chip away and make
everybody a little bit better.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
You talk about neutralizing the swing.
I would imagine you've read thebook Practical Golf from John
Jacobs.
By John Jacobs, I have it'sprobably up.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I have a library here .
It's probably up in my librarysomewhere.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yeah, and Jim Hardy, whom I believe you've studied,
from I haven't studied.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I've listened to some of his stuff for the.
You know the different planes,I'm familiar with him, but I
haven't really studied with himnow.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
So I think Jim Hardy spent a lot of time with John
Jacobs and he used to say right,if the next ball is not better,
then the information you'regiving your student probably is
not correct or he's just notdoing it.
And I like what you said aboutneutralizing the swing, because
I often say this the golf swingis not as difficult as the game
(21:57):
of golf.
The ball is not moving likeother sports.
So once you understand how thetool is being used, you get your
body into a golf-like position.
Then hitting the ball should bea fairly straightforward task,
right.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
So I don't think we spend enough time with the
fundamentals.
So it's just this winter.
This is an interesting story.
So to show you that I'm justdiving into this business now
and trying to learn as much as Ican, I went down to Florida.
I drove down from Massachusetts.
It's 1200 mile drive and Istopped at different places and
(22:37):
met with different people alongthe way and I witnessed and
watched.
I spent a whole day with BradFaxon on the putting green.
I worked with and observedJason Bale, who just won the
(22:59):
2025 PGA Teacher of the YearAward.
I watched him give eight.
He's Lucas Glover's coach.
I watched him give eightlessons and I'm just trying to
learn.
I watched Craig Shanklin.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that name.
He's an old legend.
He's 85 years old.
I went and spent some time withhim and just trying to learn as
much as I can A little.
You know odds and ends.
(23:19):
I call them nuggets.
If I could take a little nuggetaway from each one of these
guys and just kind of strengthenmy teaching skills, to me it
was all worthwhile.
And then I went to the, to thePGA teaching and coaching summit
at the PGA show.
That was a two day seminar Justagain, just trying to soak it
(23:42):
all in and learn as much as Ican it's.
It's enjoyable for me too.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
You were obviously a player in your prime.
You shot a 65 before.
How did you get so good?
And I want to use that andsegue into your thoughts on how
golf instruction has changedyeah, good question, um, I'll
tell you what.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I'll tell you how I got good if you can tell me how
I can get it back.
I, uh, I've been going throughso I'm 65 now, so uh've kind of
I'm not on my a game per se, butI still hit balls literally
every day.
I try to hit balls, even ifit's for 15 minutes.
(24:30):
Um, just again trying to getbetter, I still feel like I can
still play great golf.
It just isn't quite happeningthe way I visualize it, but I
think a lot of it was when I wasyounger, when I first started
playing as a sophomore in highschool.
When I tell you, I like doveinto it.
(24:51):
I would play some days 36 holesa day.
My mom would drop me off at theclub in the morning and pick me
up before dinnertime.
I worked for my dad so he wasvery flexible with giving me
either a morning off or anafternoon off.
But it was the love of the gameand I played.
(25:14):
I didn't really practice, wedidn't have the best driving
range, but I played a lot ofgolf and I play.
I competed a lot.
Everything I could play in Iwanted to play in.
Um, I can't give that any more.
Um, you know praise and foryoung people's you gotta play
the game.
(25:34):
They spend so much time on therange beating balls and that's
not where you learn how to playthe game and learn how to score.
So, getting my students out onthe golf course and really
teaching them how to play thegame, you know a perfect example
, I use this a lot.
You're standing by the 150 yardmarker and it's one of our
(25:58):
elevated greens and the pins inthe back right and it's blowing
into your face 20 miles an hourand joe or sally are standing
next to the 150 marker andthey're pulling their 150 or
maybe 160 club out.
And I'm saying every mile anhour into the wind is a yard and
(26:20):
believe me, I learned that fromplaying golf at Zankity.
It's like one mile an hourequals one yard.
When you're into the winddownwind it helps you half a
yard, into the wind it hurts youa full yard.
So now you got 20 yardsdifference there with the wind.
You've got an elevated green,that's another 10, a back pin
(26:42):
that's another 10.
So you're looking at 190 yardshot and nobody, nobody makes
those adjustments.
So, um, it's teaching thestudent that, but that stuff,
and then around the grain.
I mean, there's just you got toteach them to be creative and
try different shots and learnhow to hit low bump and run
(27:04):
shots and high flop shots.
And I love the short game andobviously the best way to cut
somebody's handicap down is, youknow, giving them a better
short game.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, we're loving this conversation.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
This is not a smart-ass question.
How do you figure out the windspeed on the golf course?
Of what?
The wind speed on the golfcourse you mentioned?
One mile is equivalent to oneyard.
Yes, how can our listenersestimate wind speeds when
they're out on the golf course?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
So first of all, there's apps, right.
So I have a weather app.
If I show up in the morning andit's windy and I want to know
how much the wind's blowing, popon your app.
It'll say 17 miles an hour Atleast it gives you an estimate.
And then if you're in the treesmaybe it's a little less.
If you're in a higher elevationit's going to be a little bit
(28:02):
more.
But that's a great question.
But it's just trust me thatthat is how it works.
And I've played in 40 mile anhour winds many, many times
where the ball doesn't even stayon the green.
But it's a great way to reallyunderstand what your yardages
(28:24):
are doing.
And then you know, along thatline out on the golf course,
teaching them that if you takemore club and hit it easier
you're taking spin off the ball.
And the more spin you have on aball, the higher the ball is
going to fly.
So trying to get them to takeextra club and make reduced
speed swings like maybe hit itat 60% or 70% just to take the
(28:48):
spin off.
And we all watch the tour eventsand you'll see a lot of the
better players that obviouslythey spin it a lot.
They'll hit sand wedges intogreens, they'll hit on, they'll
spin back, they'll roll off thefront of the green.
At Augusta we see it a lot Likethe ninth hole.
That happens a lot and havingthem understand that if you took
(29:11):
more club and hit it easier,you're flighting it better,
it'll keep the height down,it'll keep the spin off the ball
.
To me those are why why you gotto get out on the golf course
and you don't really learn thaton the driving range, especially
if you're on mats I like whatyou say about that.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
So there is technique , of technique I would describe
it as the overall motion and youcan hit the ball with it.
And then there's the skillaspect of golf, where you learn
to vary your technique toproduce different shots for the
situation on hand right so I've.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I've grown to call them part shots.
You're not hitting a full shot,you're hitting a partial shot
or a part shot.
And, um, when I grew up playingall those years at Sankity, I
learned how to hit all thesedifficult part shots.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
It's a great way to help your scoring for sure, and
we need not look further thantwo great champions, seve
Ballesteros and Tiger Woods.
Both were experts in troubleshots, both had great
imagination and you can't get,you can't develop that sort of
creativity at the range.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
It's just different from imagining a tree in front
of you versus having a real treein front of you right, yeah,
and I recommend, if you're onthe range and there are trees on
the range or off to the side,try to hit shots over them.
If you don't have trees, I lookat the clouds and I'll try to
(30:48):
hit a ball.
I call them windows.
You're trying to hit it into aparticular window so you'll see
different cloud heights andyou'll try to hit your shot so
it goes through that particularcloud.
So there's lots of ways ofbeing creative to try to
understand the trajectories.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I like your focus on the short game and I often say
this to my beginners.
I say if you can reduce thenumber of four putts and make
them three putts, reduce thethree putts and make them two
putts.
You would break 100 or 90fairly easily.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
If some of my students were here, you know
what they'd say.
Mark says three putting isunacceptable.
I do.
I teach them that it'sunacceptable because they start
to rely on oh, it's okay, I hadseven, three putts today.
I'm like no, you just tookseven shots and threw them out
the window.
(31:48):
Gone, they're gone.
I said if you're 60 feet you'vegot to learn how to two putt.
And just to get them thinkingthe right way, I mean we all
three putt on occasions, butit's trying to get them to think
a little bit differently.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Mark, how often do people practice 60-footers?
That's the issue.
So when they are faced with a60-footer on the golf course,
their mind goes blank.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yes, yeah, so you do have to practice.
We have three putting greens atthe Ridge Club practice greens,
one's kind of a combination ofa chipping and putting green,
and then two in front of theclubhouse that are massive
putting, just putting greens, nochipping, and so there are
(32:36):
areas to practice this.
And I think if you can teachsomebody to be a good lag putter
and then a really good shortputter so they make all their,
you know, say four feet and in,and their lag putts they can get
within four feet and in, thenyou know you really shouldn't be
three putting very often.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
That's such an awesome philosophy on putting.
All too often I see playerstake five balls, they park
themselves 12 feet from the holeand they try to make everyone
and obviously at 12 feet theprobability of making them is
not 100%.
So they are actually trainingthemselves to fail and they're
(33:17):
increasing training themselvesto fail and they're increasing
their frustration because youknow what?
It's not meant.
Not all of them are meant to goin.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Correct and I do, I think you.
Then you leave the puttinggreen, go to the first tee and
you just watch yourself missthree quarters of your 12
footers, and what kind ofattitude does that help you with
when you're going to the firsttee?
It doesn't.
Can I give you my thoughts onwhat would make somebody a
better putter?
(33:46):
I don't think people pay enoughattention to their routine, and
I have a routine that I use forevery one of my putting lessons
, and I've used it myself forover probably 12 years it would
be my guess of how long I'vebeen using this.
(34:06):
So I think that I'm a big fanof putting the line on the ball.
I don't know what you guys,your thoughts are on that, but I
love putting the line on theball.
I try to get all my students todo it as well.
So the first thing, weobviously have to look at what
we think the break's going to be, and whether you have to walk
to both sides or not.
(34:27):
That's up to you.
But from there I want you toput the line down and aim it
where you think the ball shouldstart.
So if it was a one foot breakright to left, you're going to
aim the line one foot to theright of the hole, then stand
behind and confirm that the lineis perfect.
(34:47):
If it's like, ah, that's closeenough, it's not going in.
So I use the term you have tolove the line, not like the line
.
And if you just say, yeah,that's pretty good, it's
probably not going in.
So it's a conviction.
Like so many people get overthe ball and they don't like the
look of the line, you got towalk back and take another look
(35:10):
at it.
And I'm not trying to say thatthis is going to slow down play
it shouldn't.
I time a bunch of my studentsto make sure they're not
spending too much time.
But then the key is from theside of the ball.
Your eyes need to be looking atthe hole and you take two
rehearsal strokes and I don'tcall them practice strokes
(35:32):
because we're really rehearsingthe shot we're about to play.
So two rehearsal strokes thathave to feel exactly the way
that you're about to hit thespots.
He's got to feel like if it's30 feet, I'm going to make a 30
foot practice stroke.
Now, a rank beginner, how dothey know what that is?
(35:53):
But if you do this time andtime again, it really works into
the system.
So then you so that's I callthat feel Then you put I have a
line on my putter, I connect theline on my putter to the line
on the ball to create a straightline.
And if you didn't have a line onthe putter, you just make it
(36:16):
perpendicular to the face, sothat gets takes care of
alignment.
And then the only thing you'rethinking about when you're
making the stroke is distancecontrol.
So people three putt becausethey knock it 10 feet by or 10
feet short.
They don't hit it 10 feet tothe right or 10 feet to the left
(36:36):
, so they're just not focusedenough on distance control.
So the feel of the practicestrokes create the feeling for
distance, the alignment is takencare of by the line on the ball
and setting your putter andyour feet lines and body lines
parallel to the line on the ball.
(36:56):
And then all you're thinking ofin your stroke is distance
control.
And it works.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Jesse is also a phenomenal putter.
Jesse, could you share a littlebit with our listeners on your
putting routine?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I think Mark said it best distance control.
I mean, if we think about thegreat putters, you know the
goats of the putters.
You throw Tiger.
You know Trevino, bobby Locke,gary Player, nicholas, all of
these great putters LaurenRoberts, ben Crenshaw their
(37:38):
distance control was, wasphenomenal and, and that's the
nucleus of what they work on-yeah, agree um, I, I don't use a
line but um, just because thatgets me a little bit too much in
my left brain.
But one thing that I found aboutthe line is I actually have
(38:00):
been using it in practice, soeven working on some of the
egregiously long putts, which Ilove.
By the way, and for everyonewho's listening, one of the best
drills that I've ever done inmy life is practicing stupid
long, radical breaking putts,because it gets you to figure
(38:23):
out the start line, first andforemost, and then if you can
really get those balls close,man it, just it, it.
It really creates so much moresynergy between your hands and
your creativity.
Yeah, um, I, I read that thatLauren Roberts did that when he
was an assistant pro at San LuisObispo Country Club and he used
(38:44):
to do that and go out andpractice in the practice green,
and I've been fortunate to seeLoren putt up close and personal
and his distance control isphenomenal.
I mean, that's it.
I agree 100%.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
I really like what you said, Jesse.
You make your practice sodifficult that your actual time
on the golf course seems easy incomparison.
You're not surprised.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Right.
So, there's another great drillalong those lines.
I call it kiss the fringe, soyou can get 50 feet away from
any fringe.
They don't put the flag on thefringe, so go to the fringe and
there's no hole.
We're not worrying about thehole, we're worrying about
distance and get a 50 footer andtry to lag it up where it
(39:34):
literally just taps the fringe.
I call it kiss the fringe soyou don't want them running
through up into the rough on theother side and the more you do
that.
And it's also good for those ofyou that play in shotgun
tournaments the putting greenspacked and everybody's aiming at
the five holes that are on theputting green and nobody's
hitting to the fringe.
(39:54):
And the reason you're out thereto practice before you're
around is just to get a feel forthe speed of the grain.
So the kiss the fringe drill isone of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
In college we called we called it quarters.
So we did the same thing.
We'd actually call it quarters.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
And we did that, but it was bouncing the quarters off
the table into a beer cup.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I love it, Ma I like what you talked about making two
rehearsal strokes.
It's almost as if the golfergave himself two mulligans
before he hits the actual putt.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Right, exactly.
So I do this in my short gameas well, by the way, chipping, I
think it's important to do.
And the only added part I'llsay on short game is the player
doesn't examine the lie enough.
They don't look.
If they're in the rough andthey have a little short, little
pitch shot around the green andthey're in the rough, they just
(40:57):
automatically grab a club outof their bag, they walk over to
the ball.
They're going to use the sameclub, regardless of what the lie
is like.
And if that ball is sitting ontop of the rough or halfway down
or buried to the bottom, you'rereally looking at three
different shots.
And then, instead of thepractice strokes, I'm doing my
(41:18):
rehearsal strokes to try to feelthe texture of the grass.
Is it deep?
Is it grabbing my club?
Is my club going through itvery easily?
Is it into the grain?
Is it down grain?
So these are all the areas thatI put a lot of energy and focus
in.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Well, that's not something you can learn if
you're stuck in the range allthe time, that's right
especially hitting on mats yeah,could you share with our
listeners some distance controldrills?
Speaker 2 (41:52):
with um, with putting yes.
So I love the kiss, the friendsdrill.
I also use a ladder drill whereI'll put a tee at like 10 feet,
another one at 15 feet, anotherone at 20 feet, another one at
25 and 30 feet and you can takeone ball, two balls, three balls
(42:14):
, and you're trying to land theball between the different tees
and not go short of one of thetees you're aiming at or pass
them through to the next tee.
So it's just working on dyingthe ball into those little
segments, the better you get.
Instead of going in five footincrements, you go three foot
(42:34):
increments or and a putter'sgenerally 36 inches, 35.
So just lay your putter down,put a tee down, lay it down
again, put another tee down andjust try to work on getting the
ball to die within those two teemarkers, that's.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
That's one of my favorite ones too you mentioned
that you spent some time withbrad saxon.
Yeah, could you share a littlebit about what you've learned?
Speaker 2 (43:03):
yeah, so he had a really cool drill that I
actually never seen before.
He had a young high schoolstudent that was a like a
superstar high school kid and hehad him pull five different
clubs out of his bag.
I think he had a three wood, along iron.
He might've even had a hybrid,a three wood like a five iron.
(43:27):
I think he had a pitching wedgeand a putter was the last one
and Brad had him hit putts withall five of those different
clubs.
Why do you think he was doingthat?
Speaker 3 (43:42):
the different lengths so that he could vary his uh
control of the the club.
Yeah, so it's a feel it's afeel thing too.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
It's like to get it to hit with a club you've never
used and try to work on yourpace.
And this kid, he he had himmake, he made all five putts and
he was, I think, maybe seven,eight feet.
He made all five putts with thefive different clubs, not the
(44:12):
first time, but as as he workedon it.
And then Brad put, he worked alot on dying the ball in towards
the hole and talked a lot aboutthat with a couple of the
students that I watched, alwaystaking it from the high side and
trying to see the hole, theball coming in from the high
(44:33):
side.
And it makes sense because anyball that hits the high side of
a hole has got a chance to go in.
Once it gets low it's goingfurther away from the hole.
So and it also is a is a reallygood drill, just to work on
your pace, trying to get play.
These were pretty big breakers,so trying to throw it out to the
right and have it take thebreak and and die by the hole.
(44:56):
So a lot, of, a lot of distancecontrol drills.
Um, he spent a lot of time onplayers posture like an amazing
amount of time with the postureand um, making sure that he was
the putter was kind of comingback at a almost a perpendicular
(45:17):
angle to his belt line.
I found that interesting.
And even his toe lines, eyelines he liked his eyes a little
behind the ball and a littleinside the ball.
So those were areas that I paida lot of attention to because I
(45:38):
had never really been aroundtoo many great putting
instructors and I mean he'sobviously working with some of
the best.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
You know you talk about the eye line.
In the good old days it used tobe, eye line had to be directly
on top of the ball.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
I used to hold a ball on my bridge of my nose and
drop it and have it land on topof the other ball, and now I
think it's a little bit more onthe inside.
But that has a little to dowith the arc of the putt too,
and brad's big on, uh, on havinga little bit of an arc to it
another guy that's big on thatis justin lennon.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
I just went back to review his victory in 1997 at
Royal Troon.
It was almost as though he washitting an iron shot.
That was how far inside thetarget line his eyes were in
relation to the ball.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, and that kind of goes with his whole golf
swing too.
Very much a wrap, almost like abaseball swing, and that kind
of goes with his whole golfswing too.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
Yes, very much Baseball, almost like a baseball
swing Flat, flat, yeah, and Ithink it's also going to do with
him growing up in Texas.
Right, keep the ball under thewind.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Right.
So I think we're so lucky to bein this business.
It's a very unique businesswhere we share ideas with even
fellow competitors.
Like you see tour playershelping each other out.
Like what other sports do?
Players help each other andthen go try to beat their brains
(47:17):
in when they play.
Other and then go try to beattheir brains in when they play.
And in our, in my business, asan instructor, anybody that I
reached out to and asked if Icould come observe them, every
single one of them, like JasonBale did, and Brad did, and and
Craig Shanklin it's just a.
It's a very giving kind of goout community where we help and
(47:39):
support each other, and I thinkthat's a pretty cool part of our
business.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Who are some of the other instructors that have had
a big impact on your teachingphilosophy?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
So I've done some golf schools.
Do you remember John Redman?
Yes, john Redman.
Yes, john Redman is PaulAzinger's coach.
Yeah, and I played that way incollege.
I gripped it really strong andpeople used to say to me you
look like the Paul Azinger ofNew England.
(48:17):
And I said, well, why don't Igo to the guy that teaches Paul
Azinger?
So I did.
I went to him in Orlando and hehad a very unique style.
It's definitely not foreverybody, but because that's
what fit my game, I used him asmy instructor for a little while
(48:37):
, and I even had him to Sanfordto do a golf school with me too.
I mean, there's a lot ofteachers that I really admire.
I think Mark Blackburn rightnow is as good as they get.
I had the pleasure of helpinghim in a golf school at Sanford
as well with the director ofinstruction, jennifer Hudson,
(48:59):
who I hired, and he wasphenomenal.
Who else do I really pay muchattention to?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Sounds like you spent some time with.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Mike Adams.
I've been around him and I'vebeen to some of the Sportsbox
and Terry Rolls some of theSportsbox sessions that they've
done.
I even tune into their onlinesessions that they'll do, trying
to learn a little bit moreabout sports box.
I don't I told you I don't usethat measuring system that he
(49:34):
does, but it doesn't mean it'snot right, it's, it's just it.
It's like where do you stop inthis business?
There's so much information outthere.
Sportsbox is amazing.
I mean to be able to get thatkind of data in 3D and actually
prove to somebody what theactual numbers are is I think
(49:57):
the direction that this businessis going in numbers are is, I
think, the direction that thisbusiness is going in and force
plates and you know all the newtechnology and those are things
down the road I'll look atinvesting in.
I want to talk a little bitabout your battle with melanoma
(50:17):
and how it's changed yourperspective on life.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, I had quite a shock inNovember of I could tell you
what day it was and what time itwas.
When you get that phone callfrom a doctor and they tell you
you had melanoma cancer, it's abit of a shocker.
I had it right here on my face.
I had a brown spot that adermatologist in Florida froze
(50:40):
off and about a year later thesame area came back again and he
froze it off again, didn'tbiopsy it, and then shortly
after that the same area becamea little bit elevated and around
the bump I started to see theselittle dots.
And that's when a differentdermatologist did a biopsy on it
(51:03):
.
And then I found out I hadmelanoma and I had stage three B
, which is just a shy little bitof a way from stage four.
So it was a very serious case.
I had 11 surgeries, six weeksof radiation, a year of chemo.
The club, thank God, kept me on,as their pro told me to get
(51:27):
better.
My job was there when I gotback and I owe Sankity so much
for that.
It was awfully nice, so I didget better in time.
Awfully nice.
So I did get better in time andI had, you know, a lot of
plastic surgery and things likethat to look semi-presentable.
As my friends say, you're nevergood looking to begin with.
(51:48):
So what were you worried about?
Those are the friends you wantto have, right?
But anyway, it definitelychanges your perspective because
when a doctor tells you youhave about a 10 to 20 percent
chance of surviving this, it'spretty scary.
So you start to look at life alittle differently.
(52:10):
I definitely have a littlestronger faith from that and I'm
lucky to be here.
Speaker 3 (52:20):
I think it's important for our listeners to
remember that to be able to playthe game of golf puts us in a
better position than many peoplethat we know, and we need to be
constantly reminded of our goodfortune.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yes, we do, and as a plug for everybody out there
that hopefully I helped somebodyin this on this call wear the
best sunscreen every day.
Wear long sleeve shirts.
If you don't like long sleeveshirts, get the sleeves that you
can put on underneath the shortsleeve shirt.
Wear a big brim hat.
(52:59):
I still see people you know outthere without even wearing a
hat and that just blows me awaybecause it's it doesn't have
favorites out there, so you justhave to be so careful.
So please take my advice onthat.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
Thank you for the public awareness message, Jesse.
Any questions for Mark?
Speaker 1 (53:26):
No, this has been a fantastic conversation, mark, I
can't thank you enough forsharing your story and coming on
.
I think that we're all inalignment with the passion that
we have for the game, theendless hours of study and
contemplation and R&D and makingsure that, for both of you, you
(53:49):
get the proper information outto your students and the golf
world at large.
So my hat's off to both of youfor doing what you do.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
One last.
Can I give a last closing?
Of course, absolutely off toboth of you for doing what you
do.
One one, can I give a lastclosing?
Of course, absolutely.
I think the instructors todayare getting a little bit too
complicated with terminology.
When I hear people talking andI know there's the proper
terminology for like flexion andextension versus bowed and
(54:25):
cupped, and then when I start tohear people talking about gamma
forces and delta forces and doyou think Mrs McGillicuddy knows
what that is?
Speaker 3 (54:39):
She doesn't care whether it's delta, the navy
seal's coming man, keep yes keepit simple and and um,
repetitive.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Just continue to go over the same message over and
over.
Don't give them too muchinformation.
So I think simplicity and usingwords that everybody
understands is is the way to go.
Speaker 3 (55:05):
Where can our listeners find more about you,
what's the social media handlesand if they want to visit you at
St Cathy.
Speaker 2 (55:14):
Well, I'm at the Ridge Club now, so that's right,
if they're on Cape Cod, theycan find me for sure at the
ridge club.
I have a website, it'smarkhartfieldcom, and hartfield
is h-e-a-r-t.
F-i-e-l-d.
I'm on instagram.
I don't do a lot of posting onfacebook, but I I have facebook
(55:35):
account as well, but I haveFacebook account as well, but I
occasionally I'll post somethings on on Instagram, and no
Twitter or any of the others,but Instagram or my website
Perfect.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
Thank you so much for your time again, Matt.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
You're welcome.
Thank you guys very much, itwas a pleasure.
Hello and welcome to another edition of the Flag
Hunters Golf Podcast.
I am your host, jesse Perriman,along with my brother from
another mother, justin Tang,welcoming you to this spring
edition of the Flag Hunters GolfPodcast.
And this week we have a greatepisode, one of my favorites
really.
(00:21):
It's really an enrichingconversation with Justin, myself
and a fellow by the name ofMark Hartfield.
Mark has been a Class A PGAmember since 1986.
He spent 33 seasons at theSankity Head Golf Club as a
director of golf quite a longtime and he is now the current
(00:41):
director of instruction at theRidge Club.
So we want to really honorthose head professionals and
directors of instruction thathave been at it for a long time,
that have been really thestewards of the game, passing
down information that theylearned from previous
generations, generations and toteach us currently and to plant
(01:10):
great seeds moving forward forfuture generations to not only
play golf at a high level but tothoroughly enjoy this game and
to really realize the best thatwe can be, or at least realize
what our intentions are, andMark epitomizes that.
At least realize what ourintentions are.
And Mark epitomizes that.
When I think of a head pro,mark is that prototype that
really exemplifies all of thethings that I just described.
(01:33):
So I'm not going to give toomuch away here in the
introduction, but I want to giveMark a big thanks for coming on
and being patient with adelayed release.
We recorded this in March andthis intro is being recorded.
Master's Week Happy Master'sWeek everyone.
So if you want more informationabout Mark and I would
(01:54):
encourage you to do so please goto MarkHartfieldcom.
It's just like it sounds.
It's all one word.
He is a wealth of informationand you're going to hear it here
, and both Justin and Ithoroughly enjoyed chatting with
Mark.
We enjoyed making hisacquaintance and I'm sure that
we're going to continue to be incontact with him moving forward
(02:14):
in the future.
And also a big thanks and ashout-out to Mizuno Golf and
Gemma Max Grips.
Cheers everyone and have afantastic week.
Hello, this is Jesse Perrimanof the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast
(02:47):
.
Welcome you to another editionwith my friend, my brother, from
all the way around the world.
His name is Justin Tang.
He is an instructor at theTanamera Golf Club in Singapore,
and our guest today is MarkHartfield.
He is the director ofinstruction at the Ridge Club in
a very cold and blustery CapeCod this time of year, this time
as we're approaching the secondweek of March.
(03:08):
Mark, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Thanks for having me, Jesse and Justin.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Hey, thanks Matt for coming on.
You're Cape Cod's swing doctor,golf Digest's top teacher.
Thank you for gracing us withyour presence.
Can you share with ourlisteners how you got into golf?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, I started actually at the age of 15.
It was my sophomore year ofhigh school.
I tried out for the golf team,didn't make the varsity team,
played on the JV team and I justfell in love with the game.
I was a tennis player prior tothat.
By the time I was a senior, Iwas captain of the high school
(03:52):
team and I ended up going toStetson University in Florida,
which is a very small DivisionOne school in Florida.
I played there all 40 years inFlorida.
I played there all four years.
Sam Ryder actually graduatedfrom Stetson and I was there all
(04:17):
four years and we had a prettygood team.
We were competing against theFlorida Florida States Miami's
of the world, which was a littleout of our league, but we had a
good team and it was a lot offun.
The day I graduated from StetsonI turned professional and I
actually moved to the Cape and Iwas the assistant pro at the
Hyannisport Club, which is abeautiful Donald Ross course on
(04:41):
the Cape.
It's the home of where theKennedys, jfk, lived in the
summers.
The Kennedy family is stillthere in the summers and so
pretty affluent club.
And then, after I was onlythere one year, I ended up going
to another Donald Ross course,plymouth Country Club.
I was there for two years andafter Plymouth I went to Neshada
(05:06):
Country Club in Concord, mass.
They used to host the DigitalSeniors Championship, one of the
senior tour events in NewEngland, and following that I
kind of got the break of my golflife.
I was hired by a gentleman namedBob Ross who was one of my
mentors.
(05:26):
Bob was probably the best knownhead professional in the
country, had a great reputationfor moving staff on to their own
jobs and he was a fine player,teacher, merchandiser of the
Year, teacher, merchandiser ofthe Year, professional of the
Year just a great guy to workfor, very well-rounded.
(05:58):
And I got a lucky break andworked for him for two years and
after the second year I washired for a small 33 year career
.
Loved every minute of it and my.
On the very final year my 34thyear actually I was put in a
(06:21):
position to be the executivedirector of the US Mid-Am, the
US Mid-Am.
We hosted the US Mid-Am and itwas kind of cool because it was
our club's 100-year anniversaryand it was just a great way to
go out.
So then I retired from there.
I'm a member there now, whichwas a nice treat.
They gave me a membership.
(06:43):
I get to go back whenever Iwant to play.
And then this job where I amtoday at the Ridge Club, kind of
fell in my lap and I'm lovingevery minute of it.
It's really where my passionhas always been, in teaching, so
I'm happy to be at the RidgeClub.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You missed.
You missed one point.
Baltus Roll, you were theassistant professional.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, no, that's where Bob Ross hired me.
I'm sorry I might not mentionthe club name, but Bob was the
head pro at Baltus Roll and justthe best guy.
So that's a Tillinghast course.
They have 36 holes, so kind ofgoing from the Donald Ross
courses to a Tillinghast course.
They have 36 holes, so kind ofgoing from the Donald Ross
courses to the Tillinghastcourse.
I've been pretty fortunate inthe clubs where I've worked.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
There must have been some really interesting things
that you saw during your time atBaltusro.
What were some of the highprofile tournaments that were
held there?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
what were some of the high profile tournaments that
were held there.
So during my two years there,um, we had hosted the uh us
women's open the year before Iarrived, um, so then they had a
little pause in betweentournaments, so unfortunately I
wasn't there during any of thethe major championships that
they had.
But, um, they're right up therein the in hosting the most
majors of any club in thecountry.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
You mentioned that you are a very high level tennis
player.
Did tennis help you in learninggolf or did you learn it?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
concurrently and I wouldn't say I was a high level
player.
I was a pretty good juniortennis player.
I stopped playing when I fellin love with golf at 15.
So the similarities I see, andI actually use this quite a bit
in my teaching.
I think for a right-handedplayer, a forehand top spin in
(08:43):
tennis is actually very similar,uh, to a golf swing.
And, um, anybody that I know iscoming to me for a lesson that
is a tennis player.
I seem to always go thatdirection.
Um, and I know, um, uh, a lotof really good tennis players
end up going to play golf.
Um, um, I don't know if you'veever seen that is not pretty,
(09:09):
but I guess he's prettyeffective with it and it looks
like he's hitting a top spinwith his with his t-shot yeah, I
think he's a scratch player, atleast close to it yeah, um, I
did get to know uh and play withuh Yvonne Lendl quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Whoa, that's a classic.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, he actually had aspirations of becoming a tour
player, yeah, and he got veryclose and he has a couple of
daughters that ended up beingvery good junior players as well
.
So, yeah, I think the sportsrelate to each other very well
so we can already get a glimpseof your teaching philosophy.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
You kind of relate the golf swing to a student's
experience in prior sports.
Is there an assumption?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I I do.
That's a good assumption.
I've worked with some hockeyplayers.
Actually Bobby Orr was a memberat our club, the Ridge Club.
He just moved out last, at theend of last summer.
We have the whole Kachuk familythat are top players there.
(10:21):
I think a lot of hockey playershave similar emotions to golf
and even just the release pointsand things like that, they know
how to generate the speed andthe power.
Obviously there's quite a fewbaseball players that are also
good golfers.
So it's that baseball pitcheror Tom Brady throwing a football
(10:50):
.
They know how to generate thespeed and the power.
So I think players that grow upplaying all kinds of sports
I've had a couple of dads say doyou think he should stop
playing basketball because he'sreally falling in love with golf
(11:11):
?
Absolutely not.
Let his legs get stronger, letthe athletic motion take over.
I think playing other sports isa very positive aspect.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Could you expand a little bit on when juniors
should specialize?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I would say even all the way through high school.
I would continue playing allthe way through high school.
If you want to go away and playon a division one collegiate
team, that could be the time tostart to put the other sports
aside.
If somebody is a extremely highlevel golfer, maybe you want to
(11:56):
just do it.
Stop because of avoiding injury.
But I find nothing wrong withplaying other sports because
it's strengthening other bodyparts that we use for golf.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Well, I guess some tour pros also maintain their
enthusiasm for fishing.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Oh, I love to fish.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
That's good for the throwing motion of the trail.
Yeah, absolutely.
Good for the throwing motion ofthe trail.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Could we expand a little bit onyour philosophy?
If Jesse and I would come toyou for lessons, what?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
can we expect from Mark Hartfield?
So I would love to I alwaysstart off, by the way, with the
assessment of trying to get toknow the student.
I have a whole sheet made up ofquestions that, like one of
them would be the sportsquestion Do you play other
sports and do you have anyinjuries, and what's your
(13:00):
current handicap and what's youraspiration of in the game?
You know what's your aspirationof in the game.
You know what are your goals.
And then I want to learn alittle bit about their shot
patterns.
And do you hit it left to rightor right to left?
I want to know what theirfavorite part of the game is and
their least favorite part ofthe game.
So it's a pretty extensivequestionnaire.
(13:21):
And then I I also like to do atrack man session with them to
understand their yardages.
I just call it a track manyardage session.
It takes like 45 minutes.
I let each student hit shotsuntil and they go all the way
from lob wedge all the way upthrough driver, and when they
(13:44):
tell me that they hit a reallysolid shot, that's the one that
I'm going to record, and Irecord their carry distance as
well as their total distance.
I don't think enough people payattention to the carry distance
.
At the Ridge Club we have a lotof false fronts and elevated
(14:07):
greens.
I think we have 12 of the 18holes that have elevated greens.
So if you're not carrying theball up onto the putting surface
, it's coming back down the hilland hitting those false fronts.
So they learn a lot about that.
They all think they hit theball further than they do with
(14:28):
every club.
So it's a little enlighteningsometimes to share that
information with them.
But but it's part of my initialassessment.
And then I use TrackMan onalmost every lesson, and not
necessarily because I need to, Ilike to.
I think it's a.
It's almost like having twoteachers at the same time.
(14:51):
For me it's just backing up mywhat I'm seeing with my eyes.
I use video as well and then Ilook at shot patterns and and my
.
Basically, my philosophy toanswer your question is if
somebody's slicing it too much,I want to get them to learn how
to hook it.
If they're hooking it too much,I want to teach them how to
(15:13):
slice it, and my goal I call itkind of counterbalancing You're
too far this way, you're too farthat way.
I'm always trying to zoom in onuh, on the target, and hope
that those track band numbersstart to show some improvement.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
What you just said in the last three minutes
resonates so much with us.
I've seen so so many high levelcoaches just screen their
players like oh, your trackmannumbers.
Xyz, four sizes, there's sportsboxes.
You gotta do this without evenunderstanding how those numbers
(15:50):
came about, like what DavidLedbetter used to say.
It says track man tells you thepath is five degrees inside out
, but it doesn't tell you how itgot there.
And you still need to educate,still need to understand what
the students intentions are andwhat he's doing to create the in
(16:12):
to out path.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, so I think there's the, the what is
happening, the how is ithappening, and then our goal as
instructors is why is ithappening?
And trying to figure out thewhy is the hard part, but it's
the most important part as well.
So I kind of pride myself ontrying to solve that puzzle.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
You mentioned another thing that really strikes deep,
with Jesse and I solving thepuzzle.
A lot of lesser golf pros don'tthink that the golf swing is a
puzzle to be solved.
They think all they need to dois to shoebox players into a
(16:57):
particular method.
It could be theright-sidedsided swing,
left-sided swing or the thecenter post swing, for example
right.
Can you elaborate a little biton the differences between a
system or framework versus amethod?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
well, I am so not a system teacher.
I like to look at what eachindividual does, look at their
body types I don't measure, bythe way, I probably should and
keep in mind transitioning frombeing a head professional at
Syncity to now a director ofinstruction I mean, you wear so
(17:37):
many hats as a head professionaland I didn't have the time when
I was there, and it's a busy,busy place In the summer.
I'm there for seven months inthe summer and it's busy, so
I've got my hand in everything.
I also own the golf shop there,which was was great, but it's
so time consuming.
(17:58):
And now to be able to put allmy energy into instruction and
learn more about instruction,this is my passion and I have
fallen in love with teaching andI study it like nobody else
studies it.
I use Sportsbox.
I'm not an expert at it, so Ihesitate to use it a little bit,
(18:20):
but I want to learn more aboutthe biomechanics and sequencing
and things like that which I'mstudying now.
But yeah, I think it's all.
It's all a puzzle to try to tryto solve and I'm just.
I'm learning, I think, everysingle day.
I want to show you a picture ofwhy, why I don't think he can
(18:41):
have a system.
Can you guys see that?
Yes, sir.
So look at the difference.
I'll go to the top one first.
Look at the difference in thosethree swings, right.
And then these were the fourguys that when COVID first came
back, they started showing golfon TV.
This was the event at Seminole.
(19:03):
And those happen to be the fourplayers Matt Wolfe, dustin
Johnson, rory McIlroy and RickyFowler.
All so different and you can'ttake a model and put those four
guys into a model You'd probablydestroy.
Of the seven pictures modelyou'd destroy.
You'd probably destroy.
Of the seven pictures there,you'd destroy six of them.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Hang on, just for clarity's sake for our listeners
.
What Mark was showing us was apicture of seven tour pros at
the top of their backstrings,every one of them different from
each other.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yes, yeah.
So that to me, is part of thepuzzle that we're trying to
solve.
And doing match.
I call them matchups.
You know, if somebody has areally strong grip, most likely
they're going to be more of arotator, and if somebody's got a
weak grip, they're going torelease it a little bit more.
(19:59):
So these are all the littledifferences that I look at when
I assess somebody for the firsttime and then I told you about,
you know, somebody's hitting ittoo far right.
If we can get them to learn howto hit a draw.
I call it you've probably heardthis before, but it's the
Goldilocks theory You're too farright, I'm going to get you too
(20:21):
far left, or we're going tofind it just right.
So and same with trajectorySomebody hits it too high, the
next guy hits it too low.
And, by the way, my game wentfrom think of being on an island
.
For 33 years I spent everywinter in Florida.
I had two head pro jobs downthere as well.
For 20 years I went back andforth and doing the wind and
(20:44):
wind, and wind.
And now you go somewhere whereit's not windy and my whole
trajectory changes.
So it's kind of fun being ableto work with people that hit at
different trajectories anddifferent curvatures and, and
you know, just trying to, I justtry to chip away and make
everybody a little bit better.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
You talk about neutralizing the swing.
I would imagine you've read thebook Practical Golf from John
Jacobs.
By John Jacobs, I have it'sprobably up.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I have a library here .
It's probably up in my librarysomewhere.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yeah, and Jim Hardy, whom I believe you've studied,
from I haven't studied.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I've listened to some of his stuff for the.
You know the different planes,I'm familiar with him, but I
haven't really studied with himnow.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
So I think Jim Hardy spent a lot of time with John
Jacobs and he used to say right,if the next ball is not better,
then the information you'regiving your student probably is
not correct or he's just notdoing it.
And I like what you said aboutneutralizing the swing, because
I often say this the golf swingis not as difficult as the game
(21:57):
of golf.
The ball is not moving likeother sports.
So once you understand how thetool is being used, you get your
body into a golf-like position.
Then hitting the ball should bea fairly straightforward task,
right.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
So I don't think we spend enough time with the
fundamentals.
So it's just this winter.
This is an interesting story.
So to show you that I'm justdiving into this business now
and trying to learn as much as Ican, I went down to Florida.
I drove down from Massachusetts.
It's 1200 mile drive and Istopped at different places and
(22:37):
met with different people alongthe way and I witnessed and
watched.
I spent a whole day with BradFaxon on the putting green.
I worked with and observedJason Bale, who just won the
(22:59):
2025 PGA Teacher of the YearAward.
I watched him give eight.
He's Lucas Glover's coach.
I watched him give eightlessons and I'm just trying to
learn.
I watched Craig Shanklin.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that name.
He's an old legend.
He's 85 years old.
I went and spent some time withhim and just trying to learn as
much as I can A little.
You know odds and ends.
(23:19):
I call them nuggets.
If I could take a little nuggetaway from each one of these
guys and just kind of strengthenmy teaching skills, to me it
was all worthwhile.
And then I went to the, to thePGA teaching and coaching summit
at the PGA show.
That was a two day seminar Justagain, just trying to soak it
(23:42):
all in and learn as much as Ican it's.
It's enjoyable for me too.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
You were obviously a player in your prime.
You shot a 65 before.
How did you get so good?
And I want to use that andsegue into your thoughts on how
golf instruction has changedyeah, good question, um, I'll
tell you what.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I'll tell you how I got good if you can tell me how
I can get it back.
I, uh, I've been going throughso I'm 65 now, so uh've kind of
I'm not on my a game per se, butI still hit balls literally
every day.
I try to hit balls, even ifit's for 15 minutes.
(24:30):
Um, just again trying to getbetter, I still feel like I can
still play great golf.
It just isn't quite happeningthe way I visualize it, but I
think a lot of it was when I wasyounger, when I first started
playing as a sophomore in highschool.
When I tell you, I like doveinto it.
(24:51):
I would play some days 36 holesa day.
My mom would drop me off at theclub in the morning and pick me
up before dinnertime.
I worked for my dad so he wasvery flexible with giving me
either a morning off or anafternoon off.
But it was the love of the gameand I played.
(25:14):
I didn't really practice, wedidn't have the best driving
range, but I played a lot ofgolf and I play.
I competed a lot.
Everything I could play in Iwanted to play in.
Um, I can't give that any more.
Um, you know praise and foryoung people's you gotta play
the game.
(25:34):
They spend so much time on therange beating balls and that's
not where you learn how to playthe game and learn how to score.
So, getting my students out onthe golf course and really
teaching them how to play thegame, you know a perfect example
, I use this a lot.
You're standing by the 150 yardmarker and it's one of our
(25:58):
elevated greens and the pins inthe back right and it's blowing
into your face 20 miles an hourand joe or sally are standing
next to the 150 marker andthey're pulling their 150 or
maybe 160 club out.
And I'm saying every mile anhour into the wind is a yard and
(26:20):
believe me, I learned that fromplaying golf at Zankity.
It's like one mile an hourequals one yard.
When you're into the winddownwind it helps you half a
yard, into the wind it hurts youa full yard.
So now you got 20 yardsdifference there with the wind.
You've got an elevated green,that's another 10, a back pin
(26:42):
that's another 10.
So you're looking at 190 yardshot and nobody, nobody makes
those adjustments.
So, um, it's teaching thestudent that, but that stuff,
and then around the grain.
I mean, there's just you got toteach them to be creative and
try different shots and learnhow to hit low bump and run
(27:04):
shots and high flop shots.
And I love the short game andobviously the best way to cut
somebody's handicap down is, youknow, giving them a better
short game.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, we're loving this conversation.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
This is not a smart-ass question.
How do you figure out the windspeed on the golf course?
Of what?
The wind speed on the golfcourse you mentioned?
One mile is equivalent to oneyard.
Yes, how can our listenersestimate wind speeds when
they're out on the golf course?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
So first of all, there's apps, right.
So I have a weather app.
If I show up in the morning andit's windy and I want to know
how much the wind's blowing, popon your app.
It'll say 17 miles an hour Atleast it gives you an estimate.
And then if you're in the treesmaybe it's a little less.
If you're in a higher elevationit's going to be a little bit
(28:02):
more.
But that's a great question.
But it's just trust me thatthat is how it works.
And I've played in 40 mile anhour winds many, many times
where the ball doesn't even stayon the green.
But it's a great way to reallyunderstand what your yardages
(28:24):
are doing.
And then you know, along thatline out on the golf course,
teaching them that if you takemore club and hit it easier
you're taking spin off the ball.
And the more spin you have on aball, the higher the ball is
going to fly.
So trying to get them to takeextra club and make reduced
speed swings like maybe hit itat 60% or 70% just to take the
(28:48):
spin off.
And we all watch the tour eventsand you'll see a lot of the
better players that obviouslythey spin it a lot.
They'll hit sand wedges intogreens, they'll hit on, they'll
spin back, they'll roll off thefront of the green.
At Augusta we see it a lot Likethe ninth hole.
That happens a lot and havingthem understand that if you took
(29:11):
more club and hit it easier,you're flighting it better,
it'll keep the height down,it'll keep the spin off the ball
.
To me those are why why you gotto get out on the golf course
and you don't really learn thaton the driving range, especially
if you're on mats I like whatyou say about that.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
So there is technique , of technique I would describe
it as the overall motion and youcan hit the ball with it.
And then there's the skillaspect of golf, where you learn
to vary your technique toproduce different shots for the
situation on hand right so I've.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I've grown to call them part shots.
You're not hitting a full shot,you're hitting a partial shot
or a part shot.
And, um, when I grew up playingall those years at Sankity, I
learned how to hit all thesedifficult part shots.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
It's a great way to help your scoring for sure, and
we need not look further thantwo great champions, seve
Ballesteros and Tiger Woods.
Both were experts in troubleshots, both had great
imagination and you can't get,you can't develop that sort of
creativity at the range.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
It's just different from imagining a tree in front
of you versus having a real treein front of you right, yeah,
and I recommend, if you're onthe range and there are trees on
the range or off to the side,try to hit shots over them.
If you don't have trees, I lookat the clouds and I'll try to
(30:48):
hit a ball.
I call them windows.
You're trying to hit it into aparticular window so you'll see
different cloud heights andyou'll try to hit your shot so
it goes through that particularcloud.
So there's lots of ways ofbeing creative to try to
understand the trajectories.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I like your focus on the short game and I often say
this to my beginners.
I say if you can reduce thenumber of four putts and make
them three putts, reduce thethree putts and make them two
putts.
You would break 100 or 90fairly easily.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
If some of my students were here, you know
what they'd say.
Mark says three putting isunacceptable.
I do.
I teach them that it'sunacceptable because they start
to rely on oh, it's okay, I hadseven, three putts today.
I'm like no, you just tookseven shots and threw them out
the window.
(31:48):
Gone, they're gone.
I said if you're 60 feet you'vegot to learn how to two putt.
And just to get them thinkingthe right way, I mean we all
three putt on occasions, butit's trying to get them to think
a little bit differently.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Mark, how often do people practice 60-footers?
That's the issue.
So when they are faced with a60-footer on the golf course,
their mind goes blank.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yes, yeah, so you do have to practice.
We have three putting greens atthe Ridge Club practice greens,
one's kind of a combination ofa chipping and putting green,
and then two in front of theclubhouse that are massive
putting, just putting greens, nochipping, and so there are
(32:36):
areas to practice this.
And I think if you can teachsomebody to be a good lag putter
and then a really good shortputter so they make all their,
you know, say four feet and in,and their lag putts they can get
within four feet and in, thenyou know you really shouldn't be
three putting very often.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
That's such an awesome philosophy on putting.
All too often I see playerstake five balls, they park
themselves 12 feet from the holeand they try to make everyone
and obviously at 12 feet theprobability of making them is
not 100%.
So they are actually trainingthemselves to fail and they're
(33:17):
increasing training themselvesto fail and they're increasing
their frustration because youknow what?
It's not meant.
Not all of them are meant to goin.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Correct and I do, I think you.
Then you leave the puttinggreen, go to the first tee and
you just watch yourself missthree quarters of your 12
footers, and what kind ofattitude does that help you with
when you're going to the firsttee?
It doesn't.
Can I give you my thoughts onwhat would make somebody a
better putter?
(33:46):
I don't think people pay enoughattention to their routine, and
I have a routine that I use forevery one of my putting lessons
, and I've used it myself forover probably 12 years it would
be my guess of how long I'vebeen using this.
(34:06):
So I think that I'm a big fanof putting the line on the ball.
I don't know what you guys,your thoughts are on that, but I
love putting the line on theball.
I try to get all my students todo it as well.
So the first thing, weobviously have to look at what
we think the break's going to be, and whether you have to walk
to both sides or not.
(34:27):
That's up to you.
But from there I want you toput the line down and aim it
where you think the ball shouldstart.
So if it was a one foot breakright to left, you're going to
aim the line one foot to theright of the hole, then stand
behind and confirm that the lineis perfect.
(34:47):
If it's like, ah, that's closeenough, it's not going in.
So I use the term you have tolove the line, not like the line
.
And if you just say, yeah,that's pretty good, it's
probably not going in.
So it's a conviction.
Like so many people get overthe ball and they don't like the
look of the line, you got towalk back and take another look
(35:10):
at it.
And I'm not trying to say thatthis is going to slow down play
it shouldn't.
I time a bunch of my studentsto make sure they're not
spending too much time.
But then the key is from theside of the ball.
Your eyes need to be looking atthe hole and you take two
rehearsal strokes and I don'tcall them practice strokes
(35:32):
because we're really rehearsingthe shot we're about to play.
So two rehearsal strokes thathave to feel exactly the way
that you're about to hit thespots.
He's got to feel like if it's30 feet, I'm going to make a 30
foot practice stroke.
Now, a rank beginner, how dothey know what that is?
(35:53):
But if you do this time andtime again, it really works into
the system.
So then you so that's I callthat feel Then you put I have a
line on my putter, I connect theline on my putter to the line
on the ball to create a straightline.
And if you didn't have a line onthe putter, you just make it
(36:16):
perpendicular to the face, sothat gets takes care of
alignment.
And then the only thing you'rethinking about when you're
making the stroke is distancecontrol.
So people three putt becausethey knock it 10 feet by or 10
feet short.
They don't hit it 10 feet tothe right or 10 feet to the left
(36:36):
, so they're just not focusedenough on distance control.
So the feel of the practicestrokes create the feeling for
distance, the alignment is takencare of by the line on the ball
and setting your putter andyour feet lines and body lines
parallel to the line on the ball.
(36:56):
And then all you're thinking ofin your stroke is distance
control.
And it works.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Jesse is also a phenomenal putter.
Jesse, could you share a littlebit with our listeners on your
putting routine?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
I think Mark said it best distance control.
I mean, if we think about thegreat putters, you know the
goats of the putters.
You throw Tiger.
You know Trevino, bobby Locke,gary Player, nicholas, all of
these great putters LaurenRoberts, ben Crenshaw their
(37:38):
distance control was, wasphenomenal and, and that's the
nucleus of what they work on-yeah, agree um, I, I don't use a
line but um, just because thatgets me a little bit too much in
my left brain.
But one thing that I found aboutthe line is I actually have
(38:00):
been using it in practice, soeven working on some of the
egregiously long putts, which Ilove.
By the way, and for everyonewho's listening, one of the best
drills that I've ever done inmy life is practicing stupid
long, radical breaking putts,because it gets you to figure
(38:23):
out the start line, first andforemost, and then if you can
really get those balls close,man it, just it, it.
It really creates so much moresynergy between your hands and
your creativity.
Yeah, um, I, I read that thatLauren Roberts did that when he
was an assistant pro at San LuisObispo Country Club and he used
(38:44):
to do that and go out andpractice in the practice green,
and I've been fortunate to seeLoren putt up close and personal
and his distance control isphenomenal.
I mean, that's it.
I agree 100%.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
I really like what you said, Jesse.
You make your practice sodifficult that your actual time
on the golf course seems easy incomparison.
You're not surprised.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Right.
So, there's another great drillalong those lines.
I call it kiss the fringe, soyou can get 50 feet away from
any fringe.
They don't put the flag on thefringe, so go to the fringe and
there's no hole.
We're not worrying about thehole, we're worrying about
distance and get a 50 footer andtry to lag it up where it
(39:34):
literally just taps the fringe.
I call it kiss the fringe soyou don't want them running
through up into the rough on theother side and the more you do
that.
And it's also good for those ofyou that play in shotgun
tournaments the putting greenspacked and everybody's aiming at
the five holes that are on theputting green and nobody's
hitting to the fringe.
(39:54):
And the reason you're out thereto practice before you're
around is just to get a feel forthe speed of the grain.
So the kiss the fringe drill isone of my favorites.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
In college we called we called it quarters.
So we did the same thing.
We'd actually call it quarters.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
And we did that, but it was bouncing the quarters off
the table into a beer cup.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I love it, Ma I like what you talked about making two
rehearsal strokes.
It's almost as if the golfergave himself two mulligans
before he hits the actual putt.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Right, exactly.
So I do this in my short gameas well, by the way, chipping, I
think it's important to do.
And the only added part I'llsay on short game is the player
doesn't examine the lie enough.
They don't look.
If they're in the rough andthey have a little short, little
pitch shot around the green andthey're in the rough, they just
(40:57):
automatically grab a club outof their bag, they walk over to
the ball.
They're going to use the sameclub, regardless of what the lie
is like.
And if that ball is sitting ontop of the rough or halfway down
or buried to the bottom, you'rereally looking at three
different shots.
And then, instead of thepractice strokes, I'm doing my
(41:18):
rehearsal strokes to try to feelthe texture of the grass.
Is it deep?
Is it grabbing my club?
Is my club going through itvery easily?
Is it into the grain?
Is it down grain?
So these are all the areas thatI put a lot of energy and focus
in.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Well, that's not something you can learn if
you're stuck in the range allthe time, that's right
especially hitting on mats yeah,could you share with our
listeners some distance controldrills?
Speaker 2 (41:52):
with um, with putting yes.
So I love the kiss, the friendsdrill.
I also use a ladder drill whereI'll put a tee at like 10 feet,
another one at 15 feet, anotherone at 20 feet, another one at
25 and 30 feet and you can takeone ball, two balls, three balls
(42:14):
, and you're trying to land theball between the different tees
and not go short of one of thetees you're aiming at or pass
them through to the next tee.
So it's just working on dyingthe ball into those little
segments, the better you get.
Instead of going in five footincrements, you go three foot
(42:34):
increments or and a putter'sgenerally 36 inches, 35.
So just lay your putter down,put a tee down, lay it down
again, put another tee down andjust try to work on getting the
ball to die within those two teemarkers, that's.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
That's one of my favorite ones too you mentioned
that you spent some time withbrad saxon.
Yeah, could you share a littlebit about what you've learned?
Speaker 2 (43:03):
yeah, so he had a really cool drill that I
actually never seen before.
He had a young high schoolstudent that was a like a
superstar high school kid and hehad him pull five different
clubs out of his bag.
I think he had a three wood, along iron.
He might've even had a hybrid,a three wood like a five iron.
(43:27):
I think he had a pitching wedgeand a putter was the last one
and Brad had him hit putts withall five of those different
clubs.
Why do you think he was doingthat?
Speaker 3 (43:42):
the different lengths so that he could vary his uh
control of the the club.
Yeah, so it's a feel it's afeel thing too.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
It's like to get it to hit with a club you've never
used and try to work on yourpace.
And this kid, he he had himmake, he made all five putts and
he was, I think, maybe seven,eight feet.
He made all five putts with thefive different clubs, not the
(44:12):
first time, but as as he workedon it.
And then Brad put, he worked alot on dying the ball in towards
the hole and talked a lot aboutthat with a couple of the
students that I watched, alwaystaking it from the high side and
trying to see the hole, theball coming in from the high
(44:33):
side.
And it makes sense because anyball that hits the high side of
a hole has got a chance to go in.
Once it gets low it's goingfurther away from the hole.
So and it also is a is a reallygood drill, just to work on
your pace, trying to get play.
These were pretty big breakers,so trying to throw it out to the
right and have it take thebreak and and die by the hole.
(44:56):
So a lot, of, a lot of distancecontrol drills.
Um, he spent a lot of time onplayers posture like an amazing
amount of time with the postureand um, making sure that he was
the putter was kind of comingback at a almost a perpendicular
(45:17):
angle to his belt line.
I found that interesting.
And even his toe lines, eyelines he liked his eyes a little
behind the ball and a littleinside the ball.
So those were areas that I paida lot of attention to because I
(45:38):
had never really been aroundtoo many great putting
instructors and I mean he'sobviously working with some of
the best.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
You know you talk about the eye line.
In the good old days it used tobe, eye line had to be directly
on top of the ball.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
I used to hold a ball on my bridge of my nose and
drop it and have it land on topof the other ball, and now I
think it's a little bit more onthe inside.
But that has a little to dowith the arc of the putt too,
and brad's big on, uh, on havinga little bit of an arc to it
another guy that's big on thatis justin lennon.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
I just went back to review his victory in 1997 at
Royal Troon.
It was almost as though he washitting an iron shot.
That was how far inside thetarget line his eyes were in
relation to the ball.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, and that kind of goes with his whole golf
swing too.
Very much a wrap, almost like abaseball swing, and that kind
of goes with his whole golfswing too.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
Yes, very much Baseball, almost like a baseball
swing Flat, flat, yeah, and Ithink it's also going to do with
him growing up in Texas.
Right, keep the ball under thewind.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Right.
So I think we're so lucky to bein this business.
It's a very unique businesswhere we share ideas with even
fellow competitors.
Like you see tour playershelping each other out.
Like what other sports do?
Players help each other andthen go try to beat their brains
(47:17):
in when they play.
Other and then go try to beattheir brains in when they play.
And in our, in my business, asan instructor, anybody that I
reached out to and asked if Icould come observe them, every
single one of them, like JasonBale did, and Brad did, and and
Craig Shanklin it's just a.
It's a very giving kind of goout community where we help and
(47:39):
support each other, and I thinkthat's a pretty cool part of our
business.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Who are some of the other instructors that have had
a big impact on your teachingphilosophy?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
So I've done some golf schools.
Do you remember John Redman?
Yes, john Redman.
Yes, john Redman is PaulAzinger's coach.
Yeah, and I played that way incollege.
I gripped it really strong andpeople used to say to me you
look like the Paul Azinger ofNew England.
(48:17):
And I said, well, why don't Igo to the guy that teaches Paul
Azinger?
So I did.
I went to him in Orlando and hehad a very unique style.
It's definitely not foreverybody, but because that's
what fit my game, I used him asmy instructor for a little while
(48:37):
, and I even had him to Sanfordto do a golf school with me too.
I mean, there's a lot ofteachers that I really admire.
I think Mark Blackburn rightnow is as good as they get.
I had the pleasure of helpinghim in a golf school at Sanford
as well with the director ofinstruction, jennifer Hudson,
(48:59):
who I hired, and he wasphenomenal.
Who else do I really pay muchattention to?
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Sounds like you spent some time with.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Mike Adams.
I've been around him and I'vebeen to some of the Sportsbox
and Terry Rolls some of theSportsbox sessions that they've
done.
I even tune into their onlinesessions that they'll do, trying
to learn a little bit moreabout sports box.
I don't I told you I don't usethat measuring system that he
(49:34):
does, but it doesn't mean it'snot right, it's, it's just it.
It's like where do you stop inthis business?
There's so much information outthere.
Sportsbox is amazing.
I mean to be able to get thatkind of data in 3D and actually
prove to somebody what theactual numbers are is I think
(49:57):
the direction that this businessis going in numbers are is, I
think, the direction that thisbusiness is going in and force
plates and you know all the newtechnology and those are things
down the road I'll look atinvesting in.
I want to talk a little bitabout your battle with melanoma
(50:17):
and how it's changed yourperspective on life.
Well, thank you.
Yeah, I had quite a shock inNovember of I could tell you
what day it was and what time itwas.
When you get that phone callfrom a doctor and they tell you
you had melanoma cancer, it's abit of a shocker.
I had it right here on my face.
I had a brown spot that adermatologist in Florida froze
(50:40):
off and about a year later thesame area came back again and he
froze it off again, didn'tbiopsy it, and then shortly
after that the same area becamea little bit elevated and around
the bump I started to see theselittle dots.
And that's when a differentdermatologist did a biopsy on it
(51:03):
.
And then I found out I hadmelanoma and I had stage three B
, which is just a shy little bitof a way from stage four.
So it was a very serious case.
I had 11 surgeries, six weeksof radiation, a year of chemo.
The club, thank God, kept me on,as their pro told me to get
(51:27):
better.
My job was there when I gotback and I owe Sankity so much
for that.
It was awfully nice, so I didget better in time.
Awfully nice.
So I did get better in time andI had, you know, a lot of
plastic surgery and things likethat to look semi-presentable.
As my friends say, you're nevergood looking to begin with.
(51:48):
So what were you worried about?
Those are the friends you wantto have, right?
But anyway, it definitelychanges your perspective because
when a doctor tells you youhave about a 10 to 20 percent
chance of surviving this, it'spretty scary.
So you start to look at life alittle differently.
(52:10):
I definitely have a littlestronger faith from that and I'm
lucky to be here.
Speaker 3 (52:20):
I think it's important for our listeners to
remember that to be able to playthe game of golf puts us in a
better position than many peoplethat we know, and we need to be
constantly reminded of our goodfortune.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yes, we do, and as a plug for everybody out there
that hopefully I helped somebodyin this on this call wear the
best sunscreen every day.
Wear long sleeve shirts.
If you don't like long sleeveshirts, get the sleeves that you
can put on underneath the shortsleeve shirt.
Wear a big brim hat.
(52:59):
I still see people you know outthere without even wearing a
hat and that just blows me awaybecause it's it doesn't have
favorites out there, so you justhave to be so careful.
So please take my advice onthat.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
Thank you for the public awareness message, Jesse.
Any questions for Mark?
Speaker 1 (53:26):
No, this has been a fantastic conversation, mark, I
can't thank you enough forsharing your story and coming on
.
I think that we're all inalignment with the passion that
we have for the game, theendless hours of study and
contemplation and R&D and makingsure that, for both of you, you
(53:49):
get the proper information outto your students and the golf
world at large.
So my hat's off to both of youfor doing what you do.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
One last.
Can I give a last closing?
Of course, absolutely off toboth of you for doing what you
do.
One one, can I give a lastclosing?
Of course, absolutely.
I think the instructors todayare getting a little bit too
complicated with terminology.
When I hear people talking andI know there's the proper
terminology for like flexion andextension versus bowed and
(54:25):
cupped, and then when I start tohear people talking about gamma
forces and delta forces and doyou think Mrs McGillicuddy knows
what that is?
Speaker 3 (54:39):
She doesn't care whether it's delta, the navy
seal's coming man, keep yes keepit simple and and um,
repetitive.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Just continue to go over the same message over and
over.
Don't give them too muchinformation.
So I think simplicity and usingwords that everybody
understands is is the way to go.
Speaker 3 (55:05):
Where can our listeners find more about you,
what's the social media handlesand if they want to visit you at
St Cathy.
Speaker 2 (55:14):
Well, I'm at the Ridge Club now, so that's right,
if they're on Cape Cod, theycan find me for sure at the
ridge club.
I have a website, it'smarkhartfieldcom, and hartfield
is h-e-a-r-t.
F-i-e-l-d.
I'm on instagram.
I don't do a lot of posting onfacebook, but I I have facebook
(55:35):
account as well, but I haveFacebook account as well, but I
occasionally I'll post somethings on on Instagram, and no
Twitter or any of the others,but Instagram or my website
Perfect.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
Thank you so much for your time again, Matt.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
You're welcome.
Thank you guys very much, itwas a pleasure.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!