Mastering Advanced Golf Techniques: John Erickson from advancedballstriking.com and Louis Brown on Club Transition and Mental Strategy for Championship Success

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, this is Jesse Perryman, and welcome to this
week's edition of the FlagHunters Golf Podcast.
This one's a great one, folks.
I'm going to keep this introshort and simple.
This intro or, excuse me, thispodcast is with a man that I
have a lot of respect for.
That has been a very deepinfluence in my golf life.

(00:22):
His name is John Erickson.
John is the founder of advancedball striking.
He and Bradley Hughes havebuilt the advanced ball
strikingcom website that hasforums about just about anything
that you can imagine in golf,but primarily it's centralized

(00:44):
around the methodology that Johnhas taught us, as well as Brad
and equipment and things likethat.
So we've got the founder ofAdvanced Ball Striking, john
Erickson, and the reigning USGASenior Amateur Champion, lewis
Brown.
Lewis's story is phenomenal.

(01:04):
It's a great story and what'spertinent about this
conversation is a little bitover a year ago, john started
working with Lewis on histransition.
Lewis wasn't really happy withthe way he was transitioning the
golf club.
He wanted the club to come in alittle bit shallower and John

(01:25):
gave him a couple of tidbits towork on and it really helped him
.
It helped him get the club alittle bit lower down on plane
coming into entry, which wewould call the 430 path.
Those who are ABS students andfamiliar with the workings of
John and Brad know this conceptvery well.
The workings of John and Bradknow this concept very well and

(01:50):
Lewis took it to heart, workedon it for a year and then played
in his first tournament in ayear in the USGA Senior Amateur,
which was on a tough golfcourse, and he won, beat
everybody.
So he beat the best amateurevent in the world for men that
are 55 and over.
And Lewis's story is great.

(02:10):
So I'm not going to bore youwith the details here.
The details really are enrichedand alive in this conversation.
It's one of the bestconversations I've been a part
of.
We take it deep, so enjoy thisepisode, folks.
I was an absolute proudparticipant.
I'm humbled and honored toshare this with you.

(02:31):
And, before I forget, pleaserate, review and subscribe on
any of the platforms that youmay listen to this podcast on
and also to.
This episode is brought to youby Jumbo Max.
Jumbo Max scripts.
Are you curious?
Thanks everyone.
I hope your week has been greatand the rest of your week I

(02:55):
wish you nothing but the bestand happy Thanksgiving, happy
holidays to all and I pray thateveryone has a spirit of
gratitude and their heart isfull of joy.
Cheers, hello and welcome to avery special edition of the Flag

(03:27):
Hunters Golf Podcast.
This is a good one, folks.
We're talking to the founder ofAdvanced Ball Striking, my good
friend, probably my biggestinfluence in golf.
He's been on the pod before.

(03:49):
He's been on the pod before.
Those of you who are members ofthe Advanced Ball Striking
community know him well andthose who have thought about it
or seen it in passing and you'reclicking on to the podcast,
maybe this might be a tippingpoint, because our mutual guest
is a very, very special man bythe name of Lewis Brown, and he
is the current USGA senior andchampion who just recently won

(04:10):
last month, in September, as ofthis recording.
So once again, lewis, thanksfor coming on and congrats to
this incredible achievement.
Not too many of those thathappen on a yearly basis and you
got one of them, pal.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, thank you, jesse, and it's great to be with
you guys.
And John is nearly a lifelongfriend of mine.
We met at the Junior WorldTournament at Torrey Pines in
1981.
So he's a dear friend and greatto be with you guys.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Thanks Lewis, thanks John.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's great to be here.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
So let's, let's dive right in.
I mean, lewis, you just won andyou've got a story before that
which I'm a hundred percent surewe'll touch on.
But let's just briefly talkabout that magical week and
winning the Senior AmChampionship.
I mean, how did you prepare forit?

(05:13):
What did you do?
And in week, how were youfeeling?
How did you play?
I mean, you obviously playedthe best, but was your ball
striking great through everymatch?
Did you have a cakewalk?
Did you have some matches whereyou were in a dogfight?
Let's get right into it.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Well, lots of questions in there.
Which one do you want me toaddress first?

Speaker 1 (05:39):
Whichever one you want pal.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well, okay, so you know, normally when someone
plays in a big tournament, anduh, and this tournament started
on my birthday, actually augustthe 24th and um, but I had not
played a single golf tournamentall year, um, I'm, you know, um,
I do run a business, I'm in theinvestment business and I got a

(06:04):
late start in my business, so,so I have no interest in
stopping right now.
So I didn't really have anytournaments on my schedule this
year, but I play a lot ofbusiness golf.
I do work on my game.
I've always tried to not let mygame deteriorate.
I've always tried to not let mygame deteriorate.

(06:25):
But I did sign up for thequalifier because the US Senior
Amateur was the one golftournament that I knew could
really move the needle in termsof my.
You know what I've done in thegame.
I've.

(06:45):
You know, my first USDA eventwas in 1981, the US Junior.
I've won tournaments in thestate of Georgia.
You know quite a few, and I'vewon some pro tournaments, done
some things.
Obviously, I didn't doeverything that I wanted to do
as a competitive player, but hada pretty good record, did quite

(07:06):
a bit.
I was pretty proud of it.
But at this point, you know I'mnot really a tournament golfer,
I don't go out and play aschedule like a lot of people,
so but there was one tournamentthat I thought could really,
let's just say, that motivatedme and that was the US Senior
Amateur.
So I qualified for it on Julythe 8th.
I did, you know, a few weeksbefore that start prepping and I

(07:30):
will say I kind of found alittle feel in my golf swing
that helped me.
And you know, my firstcompetitive round was that July
8th qualifier to July 8thqualifier.
And you know, when you haven'tplayed a comparative round all
year, you know you're not realsure how you're going to feel
out there.

(07:51):
There have been times I've goneout when I haven't played in a
while and you know you get alittle uncomfortable, a little
unsure, a little insecure.
You know, I mean we all feelthat in golf sometimes.
But this time, you know, I wasjust hitting the ball really
really well, very solid, verystraight, and I started making
some birdies and I had a goodday and I made it.
So um shot 69 and of coursecalled eagles landing here in

(08:12):
atlanta.
Um finished second.
So and the way I played I justfelt like man.
You know, that's some.
There's some pretty good golfin there, you know, like hitting
a lot of real quality shots,putting really well.
I've always had a pretty goodshort game.
It was not always on because Idon't play all the time, but you

(08:33):
know, when it's, when it's good, it's, it's pretty good, you
know it's.
I can get up and down from alot of places.
So anyway, um, I, but the termup wasn't for six weeks.
So you know, for over that sixweeks I just tried to do a
little something every day,maybe take one day off a week or
something.
But you know, I was out inCalifornia playing Pueblo and I

(08:58):
played Cypress Point, where youwere, jesse, and that was in
June, let's see.
No, I'm sorry, the qualifier wasJuly, so it was like late July
and I went up to see John, up inNorthern California, and but I
told him I was going to be therelike three days and I said well
, john, I kind of need to find aplace to.
You know, do a little work.

(09:19):
You know I don't want to gothree days without, without
practicing or playing.
So he helped me get on a courseand I went and played Green
Valley there in Fairfield, andthen the next day I found a
driving range within a drivingdistance of John's property up
in wine country and it was likea little muni with a driving

(09:42):
range.
I drove 30 minutes to go thereand hit off mats, grass on the
range, but the balls were decentand, you know, for me it was
just, I would just want reps,you know, I just want to do my
routine, I want to see the ballgoing to my target and that's
all I did, you know.
And so all that kind of playsinto.
You know the ingredients thatwent behind me.

(10:02):
You know being prepared whenthe bell rang on August 24th.
And you know, in match play, youknow, sometimes a player who's
maybe not the best player canwin a match play event because
they just beat the people thatare playing.
But I am pretty proud that Ifinished one shot back of the
medalist in the stroke play on avery difficult golf course, the

(10:26):
honors course.
Um, you know, 13 over made thematch play top 64.
So, um, I shot one or one under, um, you know, um, it was an
interesting 36 hole.
But I played pretty solid andevery time I had hiccups and,
you know, looked like somethingbad was about to happen, I would

(10:47):
bounce back with something goodand uh.
So yeah, I mean, um, and justmaybe to finish that part of
your question, I I was onlylosing in one match and that was
my quarterfinal match.
I lost, I had the lead and Ilost in the back nine and I was
two down with four to go.

(11:09):
I was never down in a matchotherwise and I was able to win
15, 16, and 17.
Now the fellow chipped in on meon 18 to send it into extra
holes and I won extra holes.
On 18 to send it into extraholes and I won extra holes.
So, um, yeah, there were, therewere tough matches, but, like I
said, I was never losing, otherthan that one time.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Wow, what a great week.
Wow, that's awesome.
The thing that really kind oftrips me out, lewis, is that you
didn't you didn't play anycompetitive golf for a year.
So I mean you were.

(12:05):
Well, if, if there's any twopeople that can pull this off,
it would be you too.
Um and and I'm not saying thatsarcastically, I mean, given
given the information that Johnnow possesses, and uh, and him
sharing it with you doesn'tsurprise me because, uh, folks

(12:25):
who are listening, I'm not goingto say this lightly.
I'm I'm a proud member of theadvanced ball strike community,
so I have a pretty good idea ofwhat my interpretation is of a
good golf swing, and, and I mean, you don't necessarily have to
play great or have a great golfswing to play good golf, but

(12:49):
when you see a good golf swingthat is structurally sound and
doesn't have a lot of any movingparts that are going to go awry
, there's a good chance thatthat person that possesses that
golf swing is going to play wellconsistently.
So within that year, youstarted, you and John started

(13:11):
doing a little something withyour transition.
Let's get into that.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Well, yeah, the last tournament I played and I still
haven't played a real golftournament I played a few member
guests, you know this fall, butthe last sort of real
individual event that I playedin was this our state senior
amateur in September of lastyear in 23.
So I actually visited John outin in this property and up in

(13:42):
the Hawaiian country back inlast year.
I was at John's house in Juneof 23 of last year and you know
we swung and hit some at hishome in his practice facility
and you know I told John what Iwas working on.
I do have a teaching pro herein Atlanta and I mean I would

(14:03):
consider that more of acollaboration because I used to
teach a long time ago and I knowa lot about the swing, I know a
lot about my swing, but thenyou know, so I was spending time
with John and he was watchingme and so he you know, and just
to kind of put into a nutshellwhat I have been working on

(14:24):
really for a long, very, verylong time, I mean back when I
played professionally in my 20sI had a good enough golf swing
to have won on the AustralianTour and got Rookie of the Year
I won in Canada.
I finished runner-up in theCalifornia State Open, I don't
know.
I think three or four timesLost a couple of playoffs.

(14:46):
I mean I could play, but therewere some things about my swing
I didn't like and particularly Iwanted to get my club on plane
earlier in my downswing, and forme to do that I had to flatten
it and I really had to flattenthe shaft.
For me to do that I had toflatten it and I really had to
flatten the shaft.
I used to always sort of have avertical wrist cut right wrist

(15:09):
at the end of my backswing,which I didn't know better as a
kid.
That would sort of send theclub a little bit across the
line at the top and so I couldfind the slot late in the
downswing.
But you know, if I got quickunder pressure, of course things
could go awry.
When my rhythm was good I hitthe ball great.

(15:33):
But that was a tough thing tochange.
I mean, changing a golf swingafter many decades is difficult.
So anyway, for years I'd kindof been moving in that direction
.
So anyway, for years I'd kindof been moving in that direction
.
And you know, and I was in thepast few years.
Really I was working on it.
So when I was with John wetalked about the transition and

(15:54):
he introduced to me this, thisidea of what he calls tripping
the shaft, almost pushing up onthe handle to make the head of
the club go down, which you knowputs it into more of a for lack
of a better term like a JohnRahm sort of position, more
horizontal with the shaft andand, look, I mean I have been

(16:14):
trying to get the shaft to movein that direction, which was
very foreign for how I hadalways played.
But but you know, know,sometimes you just have to make
it move a lot to get it whereyou want.
And that's the beauty of havingvideo, because with video you
never have to guess, you can seeit, because it's all geometry,

(16:35):
you can just draw a line and so,yeah, for me to to get the club
where I want it.
That idea of chipping the shaftreally helped me move it more,
you know, move it more and getit over there.
And you know, even now I'd sayit's not something I completely
own or feel 100% comfortablewith, but I'm getting there.

(16:57):
And so I played in the US JuniorAmateur last year at the Martis
Camp near Lake Tahoe.
I did qualify for it.
It was one of two tournamentsthat I playedateur last year at
Martis Camp near Lake Tahoe.
I did qualify for it.
It was one of two tournamentsthat I played in last year.
I'm sorry, three tournaments Iplayed in last year and I played
well.
You know I was highly seeded,you know, in the stroke play and

(17:18):
then in my first match I reallyhit the ball well.
I was under par and lost to aguy who had a really good day
and I was very much doing thekind of stuff that John talked
to me about doing.
I could feel it.
I was sort of aware of that.
I was turning to kind of getthe club around me and then

(17:39):
feeling the shaft, feeling thatmove to kind of.
I don't know how much you wantto get into this, but when I
play golf and John and I havetalked about this I'm not trying
to do it on the golf course awhole lot.
I'm aware of it and I'm feelingit.
I'm not going to abandon thethought altogether because if I

(17:59):
do, I know that club's going tostart working back the way I
don't like.
But yeah, I definitely had thatfeel out there in Tahoe and so
anyway, this year, you know, Ikind of got going and I feel
like I made a lot of progresswith it.
This year I saw some videos ofmy swing up there in Chattanooga

(18:19):
and no question that the workI've done to get the club on
plane a little bit better hashas narrowed my window of my
pattern of shots quite a bit,and and so, yeah, it's been a

(18:39):
been a big help.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, john Q, john Erickson, what's he talking
about?
I know what he's talking about,but my goodness, I mean, you
know, I wanted to touch on onething before you start and I
wanted to just kind of lead intothis with you, john, that, uh,
that Lewis said something.
You know, you gotta, you gottamove a mile to move an inch.

(19:05):
I think that's important, youknow.
So thank you for saying that,lewis.
Go ahead, john.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah Well, um, you know my journey has been similar
to Lewis.
You know I played on the tourand all that.
People probably, you know, knowmy background a little bit.
But getting into teaching Ifelt like there was a need for
advanced teaching concepts.
You know there's a lot of grip,stance and posture teachers out

(19:34):
there and a lot of just kind ofone swing gimmick stuff.
But you know my experience onthe tour I didn't really realize
at the time, but I was.
It was really prepping me tohave a better understanding of
the golf swing and I was alwaysvery curious about the mechanics
and the details on.
You know what great ballstrikers are doing.

(19:55):
So, that being said, you know,starting the advanced ball
striking, um class and and themodules and all that, ultimately
, you know it kind of comes downto Hogan at some point, because
I think Ben Hogan was thegreatest ball striker and I
think in any sport that youwould look at, or any position

(20:18):
or whatever, you know at somepoint you're going to look at
the person that was the greatestright.
So you know I've had many goodstudents over the years, you
know, want to talk more about,you know, ben Hogan.
So I basically thought well,you know, I should probably try
and really break that down anddo a module series based upon

(20:38):
what I believe Hogan was doingswinging the club.
Now, this isn't an easy thing todo because you've got to really
get inside that kind of swingand while I had a lot of
elements of that, I didn't haveall the elements of that and it
took me really, I've got to say,probably six to eight years to
really figure it out what wasgoing on.

(21:00):
And there were a couple ofthings that happened where I
just had these kind of ahamoments of like, wow, this is,
this is in fact what hogan wasdoing, particularly a transition
and the way he moved laterallyand tripped the shaft while the
lateral move was going.
And it's not something that Iwas ever taught, not something

(21:21):
that I ever did while I wasplaying on tour, you know, and
also the equipment and andeverything too, and and the
whole thing.
It's a kind of a completepackage.
So, putting putting thattogether, I'm kind of in the
finishing stages of, you know,this Hogan module course, which
I'll be getting out here prettysoon.
I've been saying that for awhile, but I am actually almost
done with it now, one of thethings I wanted to do is just

(21:53):
kind of test out some of theseconcepts with some good players,
because this is really advancedstuff at this point.
This isn't just you grip itlike this and you extend back
and swing through.
This is real technical, veryadvanced stuff.
And I believe that Hogan wasvery technically advanced and I
think a lot of people just don'tunderstand what he was doing,
because I think to understandwhat he's doing, you've got to
be able to do it to some degreeyourself, you know, to really

(22:15):
get inside it.
And, um, you know, I had somebig breakthroughs in my own ball
striking.
So you know, I ran this byLewis and you know I I knew what
he was trying to do and Ithought, well, you know, maybe I
should share this with them,because I think this is pretty,
pretty important stuff.
And I showed him, you know, theHogan transition move and,

(22:40):
being a good player, heunderstood.
You know what it was.
The thing that's nice about itis it's actually a mechanical
trigger rather than a feel thing.
It's not like you're, you knowyou're trying to transition the
club with some kind of a kind ofa feel or, you know, just
letting the club.
You know, drop by gravity orsomething, or you know taking it

(23:01):
way outside and slinging itdown behind you.
I mean, there's a lot of waysto flatten the shaft, as we know
.
But hogan's method wasdifferent and while while in the
ABS course I don't particularlyteach a specific kind of
backswing, because we've seenevery kind of backswing work and
, you know, win majorchampionships, guys taking it
outside and inside, whipping itin and out and upright and flat,

(23:21):
and you know just abouteverything.
I don't really focus too muchon that, but with Hogan, hogan's
method it's very specific abouthow you have to take the club
back and I didn't reallyunderstand that as much as I do
now.
Now I'm completely convincedthat you have to have an earlier
handset to trip the shaftproperly.
Lewis already had that.
So, knowing that he had thatbackswing, he took it a little

(23:46):
bit more to the inside, likeGeorge Knudsen.
I thought that would be perfectto apply.
He'd have the perfect swing toto.
You know, work on this.
So so we you know I'd sharedthat with them and we spent some
time to quite a bit of videoand and just worked on it here,
spent a couple of days, and thenwe went out and played out at
Richmond country club and playedsome golf and just had a good

(24:07):
time, played one out and knockedthe persimmons around and stuff
.
But I think, you know, it was agood thing that Lewis was able
to have that information andthen to apply it and he had
quite a bit of time.
So I think he played you saidhe played the one tournament,
but almost a year between thatand this tournament, a time to

(24:28):
just kind of work on that, andyou know, let it do it the right
way, not be in a rush but justwork on it, work on it.
And you've really got toexaggerate things a lot.
You know I do that in theteaching.
It's like let's just takethings to the extreme to try and
get the club shaft to maybemove an inch.
You know you move it a, youmove it a foot.
You know you exaggeratesomething by a foot to over time

(24:51):
and after a couple of monthsnow you've actually moved the
shaft maybe an inch or half inchor something.
But golf is a very precise gameand moving it an inch meaning
you don't have to think about itthis is just your natural swing
.
You just take it back and youswing through and it's actually,
you know, you move the needle.
You know, so to speak andthat's my approach towards

(25:13):
teaching is to try and reallyexaggerate things, get the feel,
and then you come backsomewhere.
So I think you know it wasclear that that's what was
happening in Lewis's swingbecause throughout the year he'd
sent me, you know, every monthor so he'd send me some things
and I'd take a look and I waslike, yeah, I could see that it
was happening and it wasimproving and he was getting the

(25:36):
shaft and the club head and theclub face to where he wanted to
have it.
So, that being said, to go outand just win the US Senior
Amateur Championship, I don'tthink I was expecting that, but
it's an incredibleaccomplishment and I'm not
really here to take credit forit or anything, but I think it

(25:57):
probably had some maybe littleeffect in just helping Lewis get
the club to where he wants.
There's a lot more to winningtournaments than just having a
great golf swing.
You still have to processthings, think well, strategize,
you know, be prepared and playsmart and position the ball
correctly, and you know there'sa lot more to just playing golf
and then winning tournaments andstuff, so.

(26:18):
So that's kind of kind of it.
And then I know, jesse, you,you know I shared this with you
too and then you know you go outand win your club championship
by seven shots and wipeeverybody out or whatever.
So I think it's encouraging.
Moving forward just in the kindof a beta testing really, of the
Hogan modules.
I think you know some prettypretty good results just right
here.
Both of you guys have, you know, done pretty well.

(26:40):
I mean, even for myself.
You know I hadn't through thepandemic.
I didn't play golf for twoyears at all.
My first round of golf wasplaying with you at Cypress
Point and I hadn't played in twoyears and went out and hit, you
know, 14 greens and a20-mile-an-hour wind.
I mean I don't think I wouldnormally have done that, but I
think good technique is reallyimportant for someone that maybe

(27:08):
doesn't play all the time.
I remembered when I was on tourI was always impressed by the
guys that didn't have topractice a lot.
You know they practiced somebut you'd see, a guy that wasn't
a ball beater, you know, didn'tpractice a whole lot and the
traveling is tough on the bodyand all that, especially on the
tours.
We were playing a lot ofdriving, you know, doing like 12
hour drives, 18 hour drivesbetween tournaments, and it's

(27:31):
pretty tough on your body.
Having good technique, I think,can really help you through
that stuff too.
So it doesn't surprise me youknow that Lewis could go out and
play some very good golf.
Does surprise me when I won thenational senior amateur um just
without playing.

(27:51):
But but then again, you knowhaving good technique right.
So that's really really helpful.
I think if you don't have goodtechnique, you can practice your
way into being a good player,right.
You got to keep on it.
You know you got to really be aball beater and hit a lot of
balls and all the timing stuff.
You know the golf swings thatare all real timing based and

(28:14):
you know you see more ballbeaters kind of doing that with,
I think, more like swingersreleases.
You know I've talked about thatover over time, but I think you
know Lewis has a real hittershitters release and holding
shaft flex and accelerating theclub through the strike.

(28:38):
So all the stuff that I like toteach, I mean I early on the abs
um course and the form and allthat, and maybe 2009 when I
started it 2010, I put lewis'sswing up as a model.
Really, you know, it's likethis is really what I teach, you
know, and, uh, we put somevideos up of him and we had a
lot of discussion about that,you know, back in that time.
So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it'sgood stuff, it's good, good golf

(28:59):
swing and, um, you know, it'sjust I feel blessed to just be a
tiny little part of that, Isuppose.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
I'll say yeah, like I said, john, that did help me
move in the direction I'm goingto move into.
I'm in a lot of progress thisyear on it and I do think that
concept that you showed medefinitely contributed to it.
And I do think that thatconcept that you showed me

(29:30):
definitely contributed to it,and you're right.
I mean, look, it's only onepart of being able to perform
and go out and play, you know.
But having good mechanics, Ilook at it as every golfer and
every golf swing has a window ofsuccess and some are so bad

(29:51):
that that window almost doesn'texist.
But you know, but I used toteach a way long time ago before
I went into business, and I waslike, ok, what is this guy's
chance of hitting a good shot?
But you know, when you gotreally good mechanics, it just
means your window of success ismuch wider and makes it a whole

(30:14):
lot easier to hit the center ofthe club and hit the ball
straight.
It still doesn't mean you'regoing to do it, because you do
need to hit the sweet spot andyou know it.
All it takes is a little bit ofdeviation with the club face
and you're hitting it off your,off your target.
But so much of the game ismental, as we know.
You know you gotta, you gottahave your head in the right

(30:34):
place to play your eight ball.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, probability, like kind of what you're talking
about.
You know I think golf is reallyincreasing the probability, you
know, of success, whether it'sdriving the ball in the fairway,
hitting greens, putting, and Iknow we talked a little bit
about.
You know of success whetherit's driving the ball in the
fairway, hitting greens, putting, and I know we talked a little
bit about.
You know what I call the piechart, you know, and basically

(30:58):
if you put a pin in the middleof a circle and you have a, you
know you divide that into fourquadrants.
You know long and left.
I would call that quadrant thered, usually a place you don't
really want to be, because ifyou're in the red zone your putt
for a right-handed golfer isgoing to be left to right and
downhill, so it's harder to makeleft to right downhill putts
than it is uphill, right to leftputts.

(31:21):
So I'd call the green zonewould be, say, short, right, and
so if you can set up your gearand your swing so that your
misses end up more in the greenzone, more often than the red
zone, then I think you'reincreasing the probability for
success.
And this move that we'retalking about here, flattening
the shaft, then it starts totake that left vector of

(31:43):
possibilities and you startmoving that to the right and
usually when you miss hit a shotit's because you're not hitting
it real solid.
So then that ball would tend tofall short and right, which
would leave you in easier up anddown.
Typically, if you miss thegreen, you're chipping uphill
right to left.
Or if you're on the green andyou've got a 20-foot, 30-foot

(32:13):
birdie putt, you're puttingright to left.
So this is something that'stalked about.
You know a lot in golf but Ithink it's a real reality.
And uh, to set your game up towhere your miss is, generally,
of course you know if there'swater short right or something,
again you can play away fromthis and you could play up
towards the left part of thegreen and your miss might be
stiff, you know, right by thepin or something.
But but uh, you know this isall strategy and ball

(32:33):
positioning stuff and I'm a ballcontrol guy.
That that's, that's what I like.
I mean the distance thing it's.
You know it's good to hit theball far and all that.
But really the way you playgood golf is is uh, with with
controlling the golf ball,especially with the wedges, and
short game, putting and keepingthe ball in the fairway,
especially in a tournament likeyou just played in a USG event
where there's some rough and youknow it's big premium on

(32:55):
getting the ball in the fairway.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Lewis, how was the course set up in terms of that?
Was there some pretty nastyrough?

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, there was, um, you know it.
Fortunately there was a chanceyou could get a decent lie.
But you could also get a reallybad lie.
Um, you know, I I did drive theball well, but you know I
missed some fairways and Iremember, and I remember one day
on the fifth hole I hit oneright and I just had to oh, this

(33:34):
was during the stroke play andI just had to hit a wedge out.
I mean, I only probably hit 80yards down the fairway and I hit
another wedge in there to threefeet and made par, you know.
But there were other times Idrove it in the rough and was
able to, you know, get a prettyclean lie.

(33:54):
You know it was sitting up okay.
So they I think they were alittle bit generous from that
standpoint.
It could have been worse.
Like I say, you can get somereally bad lies, but there was a
chance you could get a good lie.
But the golf course there ishard.
It's a Pete Dye course and it'snot.

(34:17):
Maybe it's not classic Pete Dye, like maybe some of the Palm
Springs courses.
You do see some of the Pete Dyestuff, but I mean it is a
classic golf course for sure.
I mean it's some of the PeteDye stuff, but but I mean it is
a classic golf course for sure.
I mean it's one of the Ibelieve it's ranked in the top
50 in America.
But the green complexes arevery difficult and, like I said,

(34:42):
13 or over.
Well, I told you earlier 13over may match plays.
So you know, I mean bogeys werereally easy to make and doubles
.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Wow, you know that's.
That's so cool.
What a great story, what agreat conversation, y'all.
I'm just thinking about all ofthis and and, and.
You know I'm going to go aheadand kind of segue in and put it
all together.
I mean, good technique is goingto give you a.
It's just, you know I'm goingto go ahead and kind of segue in
and put it all together.
I mean good technique is goingto give you.
It's just, you know, taking whatyou've always told me, john,

(35:15):
what you've said all along isstacking the deck in your favor,
and I think that mentally, thatcorrelates to a level of
surrender.
When you know, from balls tobones, that you've earned your
technique, you've earned theright to strike it solidly.
There's a part of your golfconsciousness that lets that

(35:36):
part go.
You know, that's just like oneless thing to worry about,
because you know what you gotunder the hood is going to hold
up.
You know that for a fact and Ithink that's very valuable and I
mean, hey, that's what all thegreats did.
I mean, you know, john, and I,john, you and I talk about this

(35:58):
all the time as far as greattechnique and how it holds up
under the gun and we'recelebrating lewis here and and
he's certainly a part of thisbut it it seems to me that men
and women that have had greattechnique throughout their
careers, they never reallydisappear.
You know, like Nick Price, forexample, if he disappeared he

(36:20):
would finish middle of the pack,primarily because he didn't
putt well.
But if he putted well heprobably won.
But he never went off the radarfor weeks at a time.
You know, same with Nick Faldo,same with a lot of players.
George Newton we celebrate andtalk about a lot.
His ball striking was a jokebecause his technique was

(36:43):
superior.
It was really really, reallygood.
And if you have that and you'vebuilt that within that's just
another part under competitionthat you know, especially coming
down the stretch, Whether it'sstroke play or match play, you
know really in your spine thatyou've got it under the gun.

(37:05):
It's really powerful.
I felt it this year for thefirst time.
Or I knew coming down thestretch in a few tournaments
that the fear of losing a ball,right or left, didn't even enter
my mind.
It was a matter of I'm gonnahit this thing as hard as I

(37:26):
possibly can.
And uh, that has a hundredpercent do with.
You know what we're talkingabout here.
I mean, I've been a ABSpractitioner for four years.
I know what it's like to do alot of work off the golf course,
to beat on a bag, to thinkabout it, think about how to

(37:48):
follow this instruction andtrain the pressures, and this
year it just clicked.
And then, adding on to trippingthe shaft, uh, the hogan modules
are.
I've I've been fortunate enoughto have sneak peek, to start to
work on them and I can alreadytell that there's something
different back there intransition, that there's

(38:11):
something different.
I mean, john, you and I talkedabout it the other day.
Lewis, john and I had thisconversation where I I felt
tripping the shaft in real time,not thinking about it, I don't
think about it, I don't have aswing thought, but I felt it
real time.
And what was interesting wasbut I felt it real time.
And what was interesting washow much more time I had from
the top of the backswing toactually hitting the golf ball I

(38:36):
guess that's the best way I candescribe it Like whoa, my
body's tripping out, going.
What do I do with all this timeback there?
Because the transition andtripping of the shaft and
getting it back down to.
You know, golf machine, speak,the elbow point, or the original
shaft, plane getting it down,that that you have at address,

(38:58):
that, combined with the gravitydrop, you know the, the free
ride down in this, it's now theshaft is coming down into a
position where you can hit it ashard as you want, you can let
that thing absolutely rip.
And now that part of, at leastfor me, being a student and

(39:22):
having this conversation andbasically trying to figure out
how hogan did what he did andhow is that, even in the sphere
of applicability, now we havethat bridge.
And now actually Hogan's swingto me makes the most sense out
of everything, even though foryears, for years, it was

(39:44):
shrouded in this zen like StarWars mystery that it was just
you, you couldn't, you couldn'tquite get what he was doing.
And then, and then, on top ofthat, the importance of the
equipment too.

(40:04):
Like John told me, point blank,he goes hey, dude, when you
start working on this stuff,you're going to want your clubs
to be heavy, heavier than theyalready are.
Well, I get that now I, I getit.
It's to me.
It's, uh, the more complex thatmy interpretation of hogan was

(40:26):
versus, as it is now in theapplicability of this technology
, of this information, it makesthe most sense and it's the most
simple.
And it seems to like John Imean you and Lewis can probably
really edify this a lot morethan me, because I'm just at the
beginning of this journey thatit just goes with nature, like
everything about it just goeswith nature.

(40:48):
Like everything about it justgoes with nature, like, oh, this
is how it's supposed to be, oh,okay, well, no wonder ben hogan
would never really hit it bad.
He never really would hit itbad.
Maybe he might miss hit a shotor something, but but but as I

(41:10):
see it now, it makes the mostsense.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
So boys care to touch on that well, um, you know I'm
a big believer in, you know,holding shot flex through the
strike.
So what is that For one?
It's putting feel in your hands.
It's putting pressure in yourhands.
So if you were to take a cluband push it against a door, jam

(41:38):
and flex the shaft, all of asudden you'd feel a lot more in
your hands than if you didn't dothat right.
So it's that feel that's goingto give you the awareness of
where the leading edge of theclub face is at, and also your
low point control, club facecontrol and your path and all
that.
So that's really critical.
Also, the ball tends to respondbetter when you're holding

(42:03):
shaft flex, because now you'rehitting it not just with the
weight of the club head itself,but you're also hitting it with
the shaft.
It's like if you hit somebodywith a two by four right, you're
hitting it with a whole boardright.
So you're hitting it holdingshaft flex.
I think that's the.
You know, that's the secret ofgreat golf and that's the holy
grail.
So a lot of great players havedone that in a lot of different

(42:28):
ways to do that.
So the question is, is there abest way to do that?
You know, we've seen a lot ofdifferent ways of doing it.
But when I look at Hogan'stechnique, knowing what I know
now, I actually think that froma technical standpoint it's
actually the best way to do itbecause it's not relying upon
other things that are moredifficult, like trying to time

(42:49):
certain things or trying to usejust a gravity drop at the top,
you know, because it's easy tointerfere with that.
So when you have the thismechanical motion and again it's
not just one thing, because youknow, that's why I'm not a
Hogan secret guy because if youdo one thing you have to do it

(43:12):
affects something else, right?
So for you to trip the shaft,it's not just that, because
you've got to move laterally atthe same time that that's
happening to make that work.
Because now you're starting thedownswing, you're moving the
club towards the ball, but theshaft is flattening and that's
done by the lateral move.
And then it's like well, what'sthe lateral move?

(43:34):
How does that happen?
Then you start talking about,you know, stance width.
You know Hogan had a prettywide stance, as did Trevino and
Moe and Knudsen I mean a lot ofthese guys are great strikers
Started with a little widerstances.
Well, wider stance is going toallow for more lateral movement,
right?
So why would you want to movelaterally?
Well, if you move laterally,then you're allowed to save the

(43:58):
rotation so you can start thedownswing, start the club and
the arms towards the ball, butyou're not opening up your torso
, you're not opening up yourshoulders yet.
So we see a lot of that earlyopening stuff in the modern
swings now where it's.
You know, people are reallychasing the velocity thing and
just trying to get as much clubhead speed.
You know that that's all goodfor hitting the ball far, but

(44:20):
the ball control stuff, that's,that's all.
That's a different, it's adifferent avenue to that.
So that that's what interestsme is, you know, ball control,
how going to Hogan would be.
You know one of the great ballcontrollers and I would say that
you know.
People have asked me you know,who do you think is better,
hogan or Moe?
I mean, I never saw Hogan playpersonally, I did Moe.
I spent a lot of time with Moeand I think Moe was certainly

(44:43):
the greatest straight hitter.
You know, just straight.
Moe didn't work the ball, hedidn't shape the ball, he didn't
draw and fade, he just hit itstraight.
He just said, oh, I don't needto draw and fade the ball, I
just hit it straight every time,you know.
So you know there's an argumentfor that.
But then you know the argumentagainst that would be you know,
let's say that you know, in theBellotto ball era, when we into

(45:13):
the green have it hit and thenspin back, and then you can
access that, that pin placement,and I'm talking more with like
mid irons and that sort of thing, of course you could just throw
a little wedge in there.
But you're coming in there witha five iron or something and
you really need to get it closeand your pins tucked behind a
bunker and you can't just gostraight at the pin it's.
You're not gonna be able to,you know it's.
It's kind of too risky that way.

(45:34):
So you would just sweep it in,draw it in, have it hit and spin
it back.
Or a front right position whereyou hit it.
Uh, you know, cut the ball in,or if it's into the wind, you're
gonna hit a lower shot.
If it's a back right pinplacement, you can skip't.
Skip it in or into the wind.
He had a low trajectory shot andHogan, you know he, he talked
about, you know he wasn't ayardage guy, right?

(45:55):
So he didn't didn't play withyardage, it was always about the
shot that he wanted to hit.
And you know they asked himwell, what club do you hit from
150 or whatever?
And it's like, well, it depends, right.
I mean he could hit an 8-iron,he could hit a 5-iron, it
depends upon the trajectory.
Hogan pulled the club basedupon trajectory.
So if he wanted to come in low,he'd hit a 5-iron and he would

(46:18):
just take a little half swingand just fire that thing in
there low into the wind orsomething with a 5-iron, higher
with an 8-iron or 7-iron.
So it's a different way ofplaying golf and not being as
obsessed about yardages.
And this is the club you knowthat you're going to hit.
And so my point here is that Ithink this is what separates the

(46:40):
really great ball strikers arethe ones that can really really
shape, shape the ball, curve itleft to right.
I Tiger didn't?
He talk about the nine windowsor something when he would
practice, you know, through thedifferent panes of glass in his
mind or whatever.
So, and you know there'stechnical reasons why Hogan's

(47:02):
swing, the way it's set up,would allow him to have that
kind of ball control and so, ascompared with, say, mo, where it
was just hitting it straightall the time, so both great
strikers, but I'm going to saythat the ball control guys is
going to ultimately come out asthe greatest.

(47:23):
The greatest ball control isgoing to be the greatest TD
Green player.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yeah, yeah, shuffler's doing that today.
Yeah yeah, big time ballcontrol.
Yeah, lewis, I'm curious aboutum.
You know we're talking abouthogan and we're talking about
this methodology.
We're talking about trippingthe shaft, um, did you, did you
really notice?
Um, I mean, were there, werethere things that really stood

(47:52):
out when you were working onthis and as you were getting it
ingested into your own swingnervous system, that was really,
I mean, did the ball dosomething differently than
before?
Did you have more control?
Did you have more low pointcontrol, like what was sort of
the manifestation that, one ofthe manifestations that really

(48:14):
stood out to you?

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Well, I had been working on getting the club
flatter and you know, on planeearlier in my downswing, like I
said before.
So I think that you know theway John was explaining it to me
.
The idea was that it was atransitional move and you know

(48:40):
he talked about the way you gointo the left.
But I already did that.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
Yeah, you did.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah, I did that.
So, yeah, I mean for me, I meanit's not like I found new
positions.
I've never been in before I'vebeen able to get the club flat.
But this was just an easiersort of trigger maybe or easier
thought for me.
It just helped me.

(49:07):
Like I said before, it helped memake a bigger move in that
direction.
It helped me make a bigger movein that direction and I liked
it being more of a transitionalfeeling right at the very end of
the backswing, because you know, if I tried to flatten it out
too much on the backswing, itwould almost want to steepen
back up a little bit, you know,in the transition.

(49:27):
So, yeah, that was kind of theyeah, that was sort of the feel,
and I can relate to what yousaid earlier about how you know
it feels like you've got time,you know, because that's a
transitional move.
You know the club sort of dropsand that sort of transitional
move and then you move into yourdown turn, you actually start

(49:50):
rotating towards the target andaccelerating and, um, yeah, so I
, I can, I can kind of feelthose those dynamics in there,
um, and and you know it, and itfelt good, I mean I, I like, I
like what john showed me that itwas.
It was really helpful.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yeah, it's been, uh, john, I mean it's it's uh
undoubtedly starting to takehold and and my action and uh,
like I said, one something thatand John, you and I have spoken
about this, but getting the cluband slotting the club, you know
, to me slotting the club andgetting you know, coming in from
what we would call the 430 andcoming from the inside, rotating

(50:40):
through the strike, I thinkworking on tripping the shaft
has allowed me to get it downthere even deeper.
And how that correlates for meis I now have permission to take
a rip at it and I mean toreally accelerate how as hard as

(51:02):
I possibly can.
There's an element there of Ican completely let go of control
because the club is now in aspot where I can do that.
There's no compensatory movesthat need to be made.
I don't need to because I'mcoming in shallower.
I don't need to slow down mypivot to shallow the golf club

(51:25):
as a compensation.
Or am I going to do more, hipthrust forward and get the club
behind me and stuck and thenpivot, stall, you chuck your
hands at it and then it'spotluck, like that is all gone
on a deeper level for me andlike, as I said before, I mean

(51:47):
having.
I mean I'm sure that peoplethat listen have had those
sensations before, where youknow you're getting it down
there deep and in your, in yourdownswing and and it's like you
can do whatever you want to dowith the golf club.

(52:08):
Working on has actually allowedme to feel more of holding
shaft flex, because my shouldersseem to be infinitely more
closed because of thetransitional move.
John, you mentioned wide stance.
It's almost as if my feet wantto get a little bit wider.

(52:30):
Um, you know, just by nature tosupport this really athletic
killer move.
I mean it's wild, um, and I'msure that if I saw my swing on
video right now I probablywouldn't even be close to how it
actually feels it doesn't haveto move much.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
The thing is the objective I'm having, working
with students coming up with theHogan module stuff.
It's not trying to geteveryone's swing to look like
Ben Hogan, it's basically takingthe core, fundamental
principles of what he was doingand apply that to each
individual's golf swing.
And I would say you know one of, if we were to start at address

(53:17):
.
I mean, there's a certain wayyou'd want to set up to the, to
the golf ball there, right, andthen there's a way that you
would take the backs when youdefinitely are not going to be
taking it outside.
You know you're not going to dothat.
It's, if anything, it's goingto be a pull to the inside
because that makes tripping theshaft easier.
George Knutson's a perfectexample.
It was always a mystery to mehow these guys would pull away
inside and they get to thetransition and then they'd

(53:39):
flatten the shaft again.
You know it's like because mostpeople when they take it inside
they want to come over the top,they want to go inside and
steepen Right.
So that was kind of amysterious thing for me until I
had the aha moment of like oh,oh, okay, this is what it is.
You know, it was just, I wasjust experimenting with some

(53:59):
stuff and all of a sudden it wasjust like wow, boom, that's,
that's what it is, and um, andapplied that and then tested it
out, you know myself, to makesure that it was legitimate.
You know, kind of discovery atleast a personal discovery,
obviously not a discoverybecause people like hogan and
newton already knew this a longtime ago, right, um, you know

(54:22):
it's like unearthing, these, uh,artifacts from the past or
something really is more what itis.
But, uh, so that you know thatfundamental, there's a certain
way you got to take thebackswing and then you got to
flatten the shaft of transitionand then the hands are moving.
You know they're moving down tothe right hip pocket.
When you look at Hogan, hishands were very close to his
body.

(54:42):
You know, when I call it P3 orthe parallel before impact, his
hands are just grazing his rightthigh.
Newt's in the same thing,trevino, the same thing, right.
So you know that would be afundamental there, right, and
holding shaft flex andaccelerating and the delayed you
know the delayed rotation,staying very close and then
accelerating the torso pivotrotation.
So that's all moving throughthe strike, right.

(55:04):
So the hips are opening throughthe strike shoulders, through
the strike right, not what'shappened?
A lot of the stuff that'shappening now, where it's just
like a big race from the top andthen everything stalls and you
see people's hips goingbackwards and stuff the strike
with all the you know thejumping and leaping and all the
stuff that's going on to try,and you know, uh, use a swingers
release to increase you knowclubhead velocity stuff.

(55:26):
But this is, you know, this isball control stuff.
So stabilizing low, hitting intoa firm left knee.
Hogan never had his left kneelocked up at impact right.
It was always flexation in theleft knee and then it was
straightened later right intothe finish.
Knudsen never even reallystraightened it right, just keep
it flexed right on through.
Same with Mo right.

(55:47):
That's really good forstabilizing low point right.
So.
And you know, turning, turningthis around so that the hip
clearing is really motivatedmore by the rotation of the
torso.
The torso turns and then itruns out of room, starts pulling
on the hip and then the hipgoes right.
So a lot of people are teaching, you know, slam the left foot,
dance, lock up the left knee,get, you know just anything to

(56:09):
just get velocity going, butwhat happens is the velocity
gets too fast, there's overacceleration.
As soon as you know,acceleration itself as a
mathematical number reaches zero, then the shaft's going to
release, right.
So that's happening on thedownswing for most people.
What we're trying to do is getthat to happen all the way down

(56:30):
to impact or beyond.
Right Hogan talked about, youknow, he felt like he was
reaching maximum velocity with18 inches past the ball or
something.
You know.
Gary player, every video yousee him talking about it's like
accelerate, accelerate,accelerate, accelerate,
accelerate.
It's like, yeah, it's not.
This is nothing new here, right, I mean, you know this isn't
some new discovery or whatever.
It's just looking back andsaying you know, what are these

(56:51):
ball control guys really doing?
What?
What do they have in common?
So so when I, you know, when Isee Gary Player swing, I say
very Hogan kind of swing.
I see Knutson, I see very Hogankind of swing.
I see Nick Faldo very Hogankind of swing.
Another thing would be, you know, not a lot of activity with the
right elbow going through thestrike, that right elbow stays
pretty rigid.
You know, through the strikeit's not straightening.

(57:12):
Because you start straighteningthat right elbow out, it starts
closing the club face down.
Now you're opening up the leftside of the golf course when you
do that.
So so keeping that right elbowrigid through the strike now
you're going to lose a littlebit of power that way for most
people because it is a powersource.
But then you have to substitutethat and that's what we do in
the advanced ball strikingclasses train, what we call
module three, increasing thepost impact pivot thrust through

(57:35):
the strike.
So you exchange that, you pickup the rotational speed and lock
up the elbow for the accuracy,because we want the ball control
.
We don't want to give that upright.
So that's basically.
You know those fundamentalsthat you would want to see.
And then, of course, you knowmoving through the strike.
You know you'd see Hogan ifyou're from a down the line.
But you see his hands justdisappear real fast behind his

(57:57):
body right and the club facestays looking at the target a
long time.
And you see that angle betweenthe shaft and the left forearm
is a big angle.
Right, it's not.
There's no handle raising right.
His hands never go up like alot of players do.
You know?
I'm not even talking about adress, I'm just talking about
the handles we're actuallyraising up through the strike,
and hogan would be the opposite.

(58:18):
If anything, it was doing theopposite of that.
It was almost compressing downinto what I call a heel heavy.
Do it and feel like you'retaking on.
You know the heel would behitting into the ground first
rather than the toe raising,which then you know, then the
whole flat line angle thing.
You get into that and you knowI've got a lot of discussion
about the advantages.
Again, it's not necessary thatyou play, you know super flat

(58:42):
line angles but you're tippingthe, the hand in your, uh, in
your favor.
You're definitely becauseyou're again flatter line angles
are going to help keep the ballout of the red zone right and
as well as help you just engagethe pivot rotation and the torso
rotation, because the flatterthe club is, the more your body

(59:04):
just naturally wants to turnaround that If it's upright you
tend to start swinging up overyour head and down and it's a
lot of arms, arms and handsgoing on and not as much body
right.
So all these things combined,you know, if you look at what
Hogan was doing, he kind of hadeverything really correct.
I mean, I just look at that.
I don't really think there'sanything I'd change.

(59:24):
You know everything looks likeit was very well engineered,
almost, you know, just theperfect kind of engineering job.
And then you know there's anargument that Hogan was the
greatest player that ever livedtoo, because if you look at the
percentage of like even hismajor championship wins compared

(59:46):
with other people, you know thetournaments that he won, majors
that he entered, and also inthat era with Hogan, um, there
were tournaments back then.
There were actually majors,like the world championship of
golf at Tam O'Shanter.
That was a major championshipback then and it's not
considered a major because, youknow, people weren't really

(01:00:08):
talking about majors that muchback then.
Right in the bobby jones era,you know, the us amateur was
considered a major championship,right.
So you have these differenteras, right.
So you have the hickory era andwalter hagen and jones, and you
know people could, you couldargue walter hagen was the
greatest golfer.
You know with what?
All the tournaments and majorchampionships that he won, um,

(01:00:31):
so different eras of golf.
And you know things aredifferent now.
But I think the physics haven'tchanged.
You know the laws of physicshaven't changed.
What mass does line goals?
You know what we're talkingabout with Hogan, with shallower
entries, what Mo was doing.
The laws of physics haven'tchanged and I think everybody

(01:00:53):
would do better with better ballcontrol.
So that's just some thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
I agree, boy Lewis want to add on that Masterclass.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
John's the guru.
I'm not, no, but he's a smartguy and people should listen to
what he has to say.
I know that not, no, but he's asmart guy and people should
listen to what he has to say.
I know that he's studied theseguys a lot.
I do look at a lot of the modernswings and I know there's I do

(01:01:27):
kind of like the idea of thethree imperatives of the golf
machine.
I mean, I like to think there'sreally just three things you
have to do.
You know, really to beproficient, you know there are
preferences for how to do things.
But you know where I go topractice with the teacher I work

(01:01:50):
with here.
He's got some little sequencephotos and he likes to show
Raymond Floyd next to MillerBarber, because they were the
opposite in their backswing.
Floyd, he sort of tripped theshaft on his takeaway and then

(01:02:11):
Barber was the other way.
They were like 180 degreesdifference, but then they ended
up at the same place and sothat's kind of how I like to
look at it.
But I do like I like the factthat John has studied this and
he understands the physics andsort of the dynamics of what

(01:02:31):
makes it work.
And those are preferences, youknow, but there are different
ways of getting it done.
I think, technically speaking,like we said before, it's just
that you want to make that, thatwindow of success, as as wide
as you can, you know.
So then you can just go to thelaw force, like you said, jesse,
and trust it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's very powerful.
I mean, you know whoever'slistening to this.
I mean this really is.
It's really kind of proof inthe pudding that, yes, there's

(01:03:12):
preferences that we have.
Like you said, lewis, and thethe possibilities and the work
working on your golf swing in away that you know has been
proven time and time again.
You know from the best you know.
For me, at least as a student,that has been so valuable.

(01:03:32):
Valuable because I could justkeep telling myself, hey, I'm
working on this stuff reallyremarkable and enriching journey
of creating something that isnot only unique to me but

(01:04:01):
something that I can be veryproud of.
Um, and having it show up whenyou want it to, or you know when
you need it to, especiallyunder the gun, is, or you know
when you need it to, especiallyunder the gun is it's really a
joy, it's.

(01:04:22):
It's to me it's more fun to beable to hit a golf shot than get
it up and down.
It really I mean not thatgetting it up and down isn't
isn't necessary, it certainly isbut to hit like a five iron
from however long when you needto and you just you stuff it
because you made an incrediblyproficient golf swing when you
needed it to.
You know, I think about howsudden be the right club today.

(01:04:44):
Right, I mean, how good wasthat shot action was really good
.
And having that and working,you know, having the information
and working toward that andthen having it manifest, is it's
really hard to put into words.
I mean, I know that you canidentify with that lewis as well
.
Um, yeah, um, yeah, it's worthit.

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
It's worth it, 100 worth it one thing I'd like to
touch on with lewis.
I know you with Bob Rotella alot and on the mental side of
things, and we talked about thatas well, and some of the things
that he talked to you about arejust really staying present in
the moment, right Out there.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
Well, yeah, you know, I mean that's sort of a common
thread probably amongst you knowany sort of performance coach.
But I mean I worked with Bobway back, you know, when I was
playing in my 20s.
And then, you know, and morejust recently, or say the last
six years, when I started backplaying some tournaments, you

(01:05:51):
know I've had some conversationsand spent some time with him.
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of,especially for people who are,
who are analytical, like all ofus are, you know, I think it's
if you really want to get thebest out of yourself, out of
your potential, it's learninghow to turn the brain off and,

(01:06:14):
uh, or at least learning how tomake you know I'm not sure that
was accurate, but let's just sayputting it in the right place.
You know, it's not like it'soff, but um, but the con, but
the conscious mind maybe goesinto a place a lot like um.
You know bob has about StephCurry and you know he's such an
amazing shooter from from wayout.

(01:06:36):
He actually does drills.
He has some drills that helphim react to his target.
They sort of train him to reactto his target and not have
conscious thought, and so that'ssort of the paradox of all this

(01:06:56):
.
It's like we're talking aboutall this stuff that we want to
be doing technically, which isgood.
You know we're all saying it'sit's the window of success, you
want to have it, but butperformance?
But when you go perform, youknow you've done the work.
It's like, okay, that's thereason you do the work, so that

(01:07:19):
when you go play it's there.
And when you go play you haveto trust it and let it go.
And golf is a unique game inthat you know there's a lot of
time to think about things andit's not really a reaction sport
like basketball or or tennis,so, um, so yeah, there's a lot

(01:07:42):
you know to it.
I mean, with performance, yeah,it's, it's it's being the
president, but it's also aboutjust not getting too caught up
and worried about the outcome.
You know which.
We're all.
We're all I mean that's justour human nature is everybody
cares about the outcome.
But you watch the best playersin the world when you know they

(01:08:03):
care about the outcome, butthey're so into what they're
doing that you know they're notstressing over the outcome.
They're very much tending totheir business.
And that's what you said aboutstaying in the present, just
focusing on what's in front ofyou and not thinking about pars,
birdies and bogeys and 75s or65s.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
Yeah, thinking about.
You.
Know, I always go back thinkingabout Mo because I spent so
much time with Mo.
But you know, and you saw MoLewis when we were up in Canada,
and remember how he would justrapid fire golf balls, right,
he'd line up six in a row andjust go.
He'd have three balls in theair at the same time.
You know, and I think thatthere's two of that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
He was hitting golf balls like Steph Curry shoots
basketballs.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
Yeah, yeah, and I think he was training himself to
do that exact thing, just toget the mind into a different
place.
You don't have time to thinkabout anything If you're just,
you know, ball target, boom,boom, boom, boom.
You know, you put your brain ina different place.
You don't have time to bethinking about standing over the
ball and like, okay, what am Igoing to do here?

(01:09:14):
Where's my backswing going?
Or what am I trying to do?
You just ball target, boom, theball's there.
There's a ball on the groundnow.
The ball's in the air, ball'son the ground, ball's in the air
, ball's on the ground, ball'sin the air.
And Mo played very, very fast,right.
So I think there's something tothat.
You know of the reaction sportkind of bringing that element

(01:09:39):
into golf.
I think Trevino looked like thata little bit.
You know he'd get over and he'djust do a little foot shuffle
thing, tap the club behind theball, you know, and just send it
on its way.
He just made it look easy,right, as compared with some
players who are just standingover the ball forever and you
know they're making it look likeit's a difficult thing, you
know, as compared with the, youknow the guys who just get up

(01:10:01):
there and say, okay, time to hitthe shot.
There's the ball here I am, youknow, step into it.
And I know we talked a littlebit too about, you know, mo was
really.
He didn't.
He never stood behind the balland looked at the ball to the
target.
He didn't believe in that.
You know.
He said golf is played from, uh, from the side, you know.
So he would just come in fromthe side and hit the shot.

(01:10:22):
He'd never get behind it and Iget behind him, look, um.
But you know, I think it'sinteresting these different
approaches, right, like whatyou're saying, there's a lot of
different ways to do it, andthose commonalities are the
things that I really try andfocus on.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Yeah, yeah, go ahead, lotus, were you going to say
something?

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
No, no, I think John makes a good point.
I mean, that's a lot of what Ithink Rotel and some of the
others are trying to get guys todo.
You do all your work and thenthere's a time to go trust it
and let it go.
It's tough in golf because eventhe best players hit so many

(01:11:10):
shots that are not good shots ornot what they want Right.
There's no perfection.
So you know you, just you haveto.
I mean, rotella's first book wascalled Golf is Not a Game of
Perfect and it was veryappropriately titled.
You know.
So, if we get, you know and I'dbe guilty of it, I know that

(01:11:34):
it's just by nature.
And you know, I think that'spart of what's making me better
is not trying to be too perfect.
Just, you know, that's why it'sgood to have a good short game.
You know you don't have to.
You don't have to hit greatshots all the time and you don't
have to figure out why you hita bad shot.
You know yeah, you know yeah.
So yeah, that's you know.

(01:11:55):
That's the beauty of it.
We're still finding ways to geta little better, even after all
these years yeah, such theallure of golf too.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Just, you always want to get better.
That's so well said.
Everybody can identify withthat.
Were you going to say something, john?

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
no, I was, yeah, I was just saying um, you know,
one of the things that helped meout mentally, you know, was
having good technique and beingconfident in that, and I and I
did practice the rapid firething a lot.
After seeing mo do that,working with mo a little bit on
that kind of concept, I would goout and just line up five or

(01:12:34):
six balls and just fire boom,boom, boom and just work on that
, and doing that it really doesput your mind in a different
place.
And then once you startrealizing that you actually hit
the ball better by doing thatrapid firing and you just hit
one good, then that feeling isright there.
You just bring it to the nextball Bam Good, right there, bam
Good, bam Bam.

(01:12:54):
You want to have that approach.
So you pull the club out of thebag.
You know you've got your shotin mind, of what you're going to
do, whether it's a little draw,a little fade, high, low,
whatever the shot.
And then, knowing what thatfeels like in the body, I know
that if I'm going to hit thiskind of shot it needs to feel
like that.
So I might take a littlepractice.
Okay, that's, that's what I wantit to feel like and then boom,

(01:13:15):
get over the ball, tap, tap, tap, send it on its way, committing
to that feeling of what it isyou're trying to do A hundred
and 10%, just completely committo it and then just back away
and so I just live with theresults.
Yeah, I gave it a hundred and10%.
It went at the pan, it went inthe bunker, wherever it goes.
But the best chance of apositive outcome is to commit

(01:13:39):
110% to the shots that you'regoing to hit.
Commit to it, send that thingon its way and, more likely than
not, that ball is going to endup more or less where you want
it.
The key to good golf is nothaving a lot of horrible shots.
Right, it's the horrible onesthat you know.
You can get by with some misshits, but you don't want to be

(01:13:59):
just mapping it.
You know two fairways over andstuff, right, yeah, Right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Yeah, yeah, you know what's what's really helped me.
Gents, since we're on the topicof staying in the present
moment and accepting, you know Ilove.
I love that first Rotella bookgolf is not a game, perfect was
just phenomenal book.
And also like the sort of thecredo in my head of perfect is

(01:14:30):
the enemy of good, and sometimesa good shot might be a mishit
and you only in retrospect didyour subconscious maybe save
yourself from from certaindisaster.
And but I think also too thatyou know one of the gifts of
really trying to be in thepresent moment, just like you,

(01:14:53):
what you said too, that you knowone of the gifts of really
trying to be in the presentmoment, just like what you said,
lewis and John, giving yourself110% commitment for that shot
and living and accepting theoutcome.
One of the fruits of that forme has been to also recognize
and notice that I mean, we'rehuman beings, we're going to
have negative thoughts, and notso much for me is to deny those

(01:15:17):
negative thoughts but to notbecome attached to them.
You know, that's been a bigrevelation for me and I really
attribute that for me to mymeditation practice and I really
attribute that for me to mymeditation practice, having that
extra second for my consciousmind to say, okay, I don't need
to.
You know that moving on, it'sjust like a cloud in the sky

(01:15:40):
moving on or changing thechannel.
I don't have to accept thatthought and that's been a great
gift to me, but it really hasbeen a big part of working on.
I mean, this whole thing blendstogether, gents, as you know.
But the attitude, the awarenessin the present moment, being

(01:16:07):
110% committed to the golf shot,if you could do all of those
things, it's really going toallow all of the work that
you've done to even come througheven more, because you're not
mentally interfering with yourgolf swing by either talking
yourself out of the golf shot ormaking a dumb play which you

(01:16:30):
know you shouldn't be making.
And then you have some conflictthere.
And for me, this stuff whileknowing that what I've been
working on for the last fouryears is true and technically
sound for me is allowing me toaccess both sides and have sort

(01:16:50):
of a mind-body coherence, whichhas been probably the greatest
gift for me and a bigrealization this year, just kind
of adding on to it.
But I still like, in closing,this thought I mean, tiger Woods
has this process.
I've said it many times and Ijust think it's so incredible

(01:17:11):
that after he hit a golf shot,he'd give himself a 10-foot
radius to do whatever he neededto do Throw a fit, throw a
tantrum, draw an F-bomb, saysome pretty derogatory things to
himself, like he did.
But as soon as he got out ofthat 10 foot circle of the

(01:17:32):
previous golf shot, that shotwas gone, his it was.
The energy of that shot hascompletely left his body.
So he's able to 110% commit tothe next shot.
And you can argue and say thatTiger and Nicholas and Ben Hogan
probably were the greatestfocusers of all time, that

(01:17:56):
there's no way they could havedone what they did without this
level of concentration.
But that's attainable.
And, uh, you having a verytechnically proficient golf
swing is also attainable in myopinion.

(01:18:17):
That's my soapbox yeah, it cango deep, yeah, yeah yeah, and
you know this, this conversationis more toward the better
player.
The better player is going toidentify with this.
You know, this is sort of anextension of ABS and you know,
one thing I also wanted tocircle back on in closing that

(01:18:39):
loop is, lewis, you know, notletting the conversation go by
the wayside of not onlycelebrating your incredible
achievement a couple of monthsago winning the senior amateur
but also a couple of thepersonal challenges that you had
to overcome.
And you know, knowing you andknowing your story, of a decent

(01:19:02):
amount it's, that's a, you'vetraveled a long way and traveled
, and it's been a long road tohoe.
And then here you are, comingout the other side of it Just
kind of give us a little bit ofa background and what you've had
to, what you've dealt with overthe last few years and what
you've overcome and how you'veovercome it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:24):
Well, okay, thanks for that.
I mean, it is sort of part ofthe story of my recent success
and you know, I guess in winningour state senior in the US
senior tournaments Back in 2017,you know, at that time I wasn't

(01:19:46):
really playing any competitivegolf but I was still playing
golf and, like I said, alwayssort of trying to keep my game
from deteriorating because Ienjoy playing and playing
business golf.
But anyway, I got diagnosedwith like neck cancer and from a

(01:20:07):
virus, hpv and it's not thatfatal, so I was not too worried
about it killing me.
I mean, there was a chance ofthat happening.
But the doctor said we know howto treat this and you're going
to be fine.
But you know it was seven weeksof radiation and then some
little chemo and you know.

(01:20:30):
So after that it's toughtreatment, it's a lot of
radiation, it does a lot ofdamage.
I came out of that and we'll seethat was January of 2018 and I
won our state senior name in2020.
So that was really, I don'tknow, maybe probably one of the

(01:20:53):
most gratifying wins I ever had.
Just that I was able to bounceback from all that and win a
tournament against a bunch ofgood players and the way I
played had something to do withthat too.
I just I led it from wire towire but then I had, you know, I
also, when I came out of thetreatment, I had a car accident

(01:21:16):
that really could have probablyalmost injured my golf, and it
would have.
I had nerve damage from it andI couldn't lift my arm.
I couldn't lift my arm.
So I was saying to myself thisis worse than cancer, because I

(01:21:38):
was diagnosed with a nervedamage which caused my trapezius
muscle to not function and somy shoulder blade had fallen,
couldn't lift my arm.
I could swing a little bit andplay, but it was going to get
progressively worse and it waspainful.
And the doctors in Atlanta Iwas seeing the best doctors at
Emory Hospital they didn't haveanything for me.
So through my own efforts Ifound a guy at Mayo Clinic who

(01:22:10):
had the surgery that you know itdidn't fix the nerve damage,
but it fixed my dysfunction withthe trapezius muscle.
It's kind of complicated, butanyway I bounce back from all
that.
And then you know, even lastyear or two I've had some issues
from the radiation causing someother nerve damage.
It's had some effects on me.
It has some effects on myeating and so forth and

(01:22:31):
swallowing, but I don't know.
I kind of look at it like it.
Just that stuff just kind ofmakes you tougher or I guess you
can just roll over and let itget to you, um, but maybe in
some way it has maybe a littlemore determined with the golf.
I don't know that for sure, butI I do think it it's.
It makes me pretty determinedthat I love playing golf and if

(01:22:54):
I'm gonna go play a tournament Iwant to be my best.
And you know, deep down I I'vealways kind of released.
You know, since I quit playingmany, many years ago, I'm
competitive golf.
You know, I've always thoughtwell, I wanted, you know, I
would love to go back and seehow good I could get again.
You know, and even though Idon't play a lot of tournaments,

(01:23:14):
I still am driven by that, bythat idea of let's see how good
we could get.
And you really have to do it ina tournament.
I mean, you know, it's onething to go in a money game and
make seven or eight or ninebirdies or something you know,
and shoot a low score, but, as afriend of mine said, there's a

(01:23:34):
lot of guys who can throw in thebullpen, but you got to go do
it in the game and so you got todo it in a tournament.
I mean you got to go shoot thescores and you got to follow
them up and you got to playunder pressure and you got to
follow them up and you got toplay under pressure, and so

(01:23:57):
that's.
You know, for me I can sort oftake back now and I'm not I'm
not that I'm done or I'm goingto wrestle my laurels at all,
but you know I can be prettyproud and fulfilled of what I've
been able to do.
And you know, I said the healthstuff.
It probably just made me alittle more determined.
I mean I'm pretty good now.
I mean the health stuff, itprobably just made me a little
more determined.
I mean I'm pretty good now.
I mean the shoulder workspretty good.
I'm probably 80% there.
I don't have cancer anymore.

(01:24:17):
I do have some effects from allthat, but you know there's a
lot of people worse off than meand a lot of people had a lot
worse cancers than I did.
And that's how.
That's kind of how I had toframe it.
It's like man, you know I couldhave.
You know, I have colon canceror brain cancer.

(01:24:39):
I don't have that.
I've got something I can.
I can manage, so so so, yeah,that's that story.
Hopefully I didn't drag it outtoo long.
It's great.
No, but that's that's.
You know, that's a great.
Hopefully I didn't drag it outtoo long, it's great.

Speaker 3 (01:24:51):
No, but that's that's .
You know, that's a great.
It's a great thing to come backfrom something like that.
I mean, you know, and that hada little bit of a parallel with
Hogan too, right, I had the caraccident and came back and
played some of his best golf.
Even myself, when Vic Wilk andI were rear, ended up in Canada
and sent us home for eightmonths, you know, back damage
and stuff, and I came out andwas able to win the next year.

(01:25:11):
I think it does sort of giveyou an added little focus, like,
okay, you know, you, it putsthings in a perspective that you
didn't have before, right, andI think when you go through some
hardship and and you justsometimes it can help you just
get a little more focused whenyou come back.

(01:25:32):
So I think there are probably alot of things here that are
attributed to it, probably somethings you're not even thinking
of, maybe, like what you eat forbreakfast every day or
something.
It's just a lot of littlethings.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):
Well, there are a lot of elements that go into you
know accomplishing something andand, uh, you know you can't.
You can't go in and turn themout like I did, if you don't
putt well.

Speaker 3 (01:25:57):
So but yeah, that's got a lot to do with it too.

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
That's a little bit to do with it.
So you know, that's a wholenother.
That's a whole nother podcast.
That's a whole nother podcastoh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:26:15):
Well, you've always been a good putter, so that's um
.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
I've, yeah, I've always put it reasonably well.
Um, I, I would say it's more ofa.
I would say it's really more ofa.
I feel like an advantage for me.
I feel like I have an edge onthe greens more than I used to.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
Yep, that's a good power to have.

Speaker 2 (01:26:39):
Yeah, it's not there every day, though.
Some days I just don't go in.
It's kind of like we talkedabout with the full swing.
You can't let a bad shot or abad round or a bad putting round
, you know, change yourconfidence or what you think of
yourself, and that's what youtalk about with the acceptance.

(01:26:59):
When you hit a bad shot it'slike or tired reacting.
Well, you know, if you react ina way that's going to make you
question yourself the next time,then that's not a good reaction
, you know.
That's why the best thing to dois just throw those bad shots
away.
They're gonna happen, geez.
In golf it's like if you're halfof an inch off or a quarter

(01:27:20):
inch off or maybe even acentimeter off, you're probably
gonna hit a bad shot.
So you know, just accept it.
And you know, you know, but ifyou're, if you're talented, you
have good action, you're goingto have some good ones and enjoy
your good ones and and find away to score when you hit a bad
one, and then you know, when youget done with your round or

(01:27:41):
it's your tournament, then youknow, if you don't like how
you're, how you're hitting it,then Go do something about it.
You know, go get better, yeah,so, yeah, yeah, the mindset
stuff is, you know, it's equallyas important really.
I mean all this stuff.
That's why golf's a beautifulgame.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
Yeah, what did Hagen say?
What was his allowance perround?
Seven bad shots.
He said he used to give himselfseven bad shots before he got
mad, or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):
Yeah, yeah I've never heard that, but I kind of like
it.
You know, if you have seven badshots then you can be pretty
patient out there yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:25):
I mean I mean, and if you're a good player, I mean,
are you?
Are you really going to hitseven full swing bad shots?
I mean, think about it, ifyou're a good player, that'd be
a pretty bad day if you hitseven bad shots.

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
Hopefully not often.
Yeah, hopefully not often, butyou know, some days when you're
off you will yeah.
Yeah, Depends on how you defineit as a bad shot, but you want
to use it all in the first two.

Speaker 3 (01:28:51):
It depends on how you define it as a bad shot.

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):
Right, you saw it in the first two holes right?
I mean, I used to play a lotwith Alan Doyle and a bad shot
for him was like left side ofthe fairway, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:29:06):
Right, yeah, I kind of like that.
I mean, I like it too.
Hagan said he gave himself anallowance of seven bad shots and
then the thing that changed forHagen was he said he got better
when he stopped trying to domany a perfect thing.
I think that was his quote, endquote, something like that.

(01:29:30):
So here you got two of thegreatest players of all time
telling you that you're going tohit some bad shots.
You know that it's part of thegame.
Mistakes are part of the game.

Speaker 3 (01:29:44):
Newt's had the great comment.
You know you got to give upcontrol to gain control.
There was a little bit of a.
You've got to just be slightlyreckless when you're hitting
your shots.
You know what I mean.
You've got to give up control.
It can't be just boom, juststep into that thing, give up
control, just take a rip at itand send it on its way.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
I like that so slightly reckless, you know,
send it out.
That's why I like that.
So, uh, john, I've told youthis, john.
But Joe Durant, who plays onchampions tour now, um, you know
he he's a friend of mine andyou know Joe's always been, you
know, one of the top ballstrikers wherever he played EJ
tour, james tour, total driving.

(01:30:28):
It combines distance andaccuracy and greens and
regulation and all that he toldme I think it was maybe two or
three.
He said he figures every roundhe's going to hit maybe two or
three shots that he goes.
It's an outlier, almost likewhat was that?

(01:30:50):
It was like an accident.
It's like an's an outlier,almost like a.
Like what was that?
It was like an accident.
Yeah, it's like an accident,you know, maybe it was two shots
around and maybe overstating it.
So I mean, I don't see himhitting me, that was a bit every
now and then you know, likeanybody who's hit one, like what
was that?
You know well, it's just anaccident.
So you know, most people, or atleast human nature, will be like
well, why did I do that?

(01:31:11):
Well, it didn't do me good todo that.
It's like.
Well, it's just part of the.
You know, it just comes withthe game.
You know, Like if you hit 100shots with a 5-iron, a certain
percentage of them are going tobe shots.
You would call an accident.
It's like, well, that's reallynot what I do, that was just
sort of like an ass, like a foulball.

(01:31:33):
So when it happens, you justhave to put the club in the bag
and move on.
You know we're spending a lotof time now talking about the
mental game, but you know it's,I think, for the audience that's
very important, you know, forperformance and and you know,
hopefully that shot doesn't putyou in a place, you know, know
where you're OB or, or you knowthey could, though you know it

(01:31:54):
could be something like that.
But you just have to realizethat that's part of the game.
Everybody's going to do it andand you know, and you're never
and that's back to the golfstudy game of perfect, no matter
how much work you do, you'renot going to prevent that from
happening.
You're going to have a, you'regoing to hit some of those, but

(01:32:14):
hopefully it's, you know,hopefully it's a small
percentage and not a bigpercentage.

Speaker 1 (01:32:24):
Well, um, gents, this I can't tell you how enjoyable
this conversation has been forme and how enriching it's been.
Uh, I can't tell you howenjoyable this conversation has
been for me and how enrichingit's been.
I can't thank you enough forcoming on and sharing your
wisdom and your experience, andand and Louis you're you know.

(01:32:44):
Once again, congratulations foryour incredible accomplishment
and thank you for sharing yourstory and your thoughts, and we
hope to do this again.
I certainly wouldn't want thisto be a one-time conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):
Well, it's fun to be around people who love the game
and and it's fun to talk aboutit.
So I I I appreciate the inviteand we kind of got down into the
weeds, but for golf lovers, Ithink that's what they're like
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:33:17):
Just one thing real quick here before we go.
Now you told me a statisticabout yourself.
You're the only player that youwon the Georgia State Junior,
the Georgia State Amateur, theGeorgia State Open and the
Georgia State Senior Am.
The Georgia State open and theGeorgia State senior amateur Is
that correct.

Speaker 2 (01:33:35):
I've won all of those except for the junior.
I did not win that, but I wonthe state amateur, I won the
state open and I won the senioramateur.
I was told when I won thesenior amateur that I'm one of
three people who've ever won thestate amateur and the state

(01:33:56):
senior amateur.
I don't know that anybody'sever won those two and the state
open.
I don't think they have,because in order to do it you
have to turn pro and then turnamateur again.

(01:34:17):
I'm not sure it's something tonot be that proud of, but it's
probably not to me if people hada chance to do it.
I've been at it a long time, soI had a lot of chances and was
able to win some, thankfully.

Speaker 3 (01:34:32):
That's an incredible career down there in the state
of Georgia.
That's for sure Unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
We're a pretty strong golf state One thing we didn't
talk about tonight but I'm thefourth different Georgian to
have won the US Senior Amateurin the last 11 years.
Wow, I'm the fourth differentGeorgian to have won the state.
I mean the US Senior Amateur inthe last 11 years Wow.
Yeah that's strong.
Yeah, pretty strong.

(01:35:00):
You've got a pretty strongstate.
It's a great golf state, as youknow.

Speaker 1 (01:35:04):
Oh yeah, all right.
Well, gents, thanks again forcoming on.
Well, gents, thanks again forcoming on and I'll make sure to
put all the pertinentinformation in the show notes
that, for those who arelistening, particularly those
who are interested in advancedball striking, I'll make sure to
put the forum support andwebsite up.

(01:35:25):
And, guys, thanks again.
Okay, thank you.
Jesse.

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