Mastering Modern Golf Instruction: Eric Schjolberg on Personalized Coaching and Breaking Traditional Beliefs

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Unlock the secrets of golf mastery with insights from Eric Schjoberg, a distinguished
 coach from McCormick Ranch in Scottsdale, Arizona, who joins us for an enlightening conversation on the Flag Hunters Golf Podcast. Dive into Eric's captivating journey from an injury-battered aspiring golfer to a renowned coach, sharing how the teachings of David Leadbetter reshaped his path. Eric's analytical approach and perseverance are a testament to the transformational power of finding the right guidance and methodology in golf coaching.

Discover a fresh perspective on modern golf instruction as we challenge outdated techniques and emphasize the value of personalized teaching. Eric critiques traditional concepts, like the infamous 80-20 weight distribution attributed to Jack Nicklaus, and advocates for an individualized approach to coaching that prioritizes mechanics and personal feel. From humor-laden anecdotes about Butch Harmon to the exploration of how coaches like Kelvin Miyahura and Hugh Marr influence the game, this episode is a treasure trove of insights for golfers and coaches alike.

Connect with Eric as he shares his coaching philosophy and invites listeners to enhance their golf skills through his services. Visit ejsgolf.com for more information and access to his wealth of resources. Whether you're a beginner looking to improve your technique or an experienced coach seeking to refine your methods, this episode offers wisdom and practical tips to elevate your understanding and enjoyment of the game.

  To reach Eric, his website is www.EJSGolf.com
  To reach Justin, his email is [e-mail]
  To reach Jesse, text him @ [phone]
    A big THANK YOU to TaylorMade AND JUMBOMAX Grips for their incredible support. 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, this is Jesse Perryman from the Flag Hunters
podcast Flag Hunters golfpodcast Welcoming you after a
little bit of a layoff, had somestuff to deal with and had some
computer issues, but we're backonline and ready to roll.
This week our guest is a man bythe name of Eric Schoelberg.

(00:21):
He is out of McCormick Ranch inScottsdale, arizona, and it's a
great general discussion.
I won't bore you with thedetails, because the details are
full of great pearls of wisdomthroughout this conversation
with Justin, eric and myself,and I will make sure to have all
of Eric's contact informationin the show notes available to

(00:45):
reach out to him if you're inthe Scottsdale area or if you
want to imply his wisdom in yourgame his website, his digital
availability to help you and allof us get better playing this
game.
Eric's a good one, folks, has agreat background, has a great
training platform and overallgood practical information that

(01:13):
has been tried and testedthroughout the decades.
I encourage all of you to get ahold of him.
He's a good one, folks, andthat's all for this week.
Hope you're hitting themstraight.
Cheers, hello and welcome tothe flag hunters golf Golf

(01:43):
Podcast, where we go deep, andthis week we're going deep Once
again.
I'm welcoming my friend,colleague, podcast partner and
general commiserator, justinTang out of the Tanimera Golf
Club in Singapore, and our guestthis week is Eric Schulberg,
who teaches out at McCormickRanch in sunny Scottsdale,

(02:07):
arizona, where it's always sunnyit's probably perfect this time
of year, but hey, eric, welcome.
We appreciate you coming on,thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, hey, thanks for having me.
It's an honor to be on andreally looking forward to
talking to you guys, and I lovegoing deep on golf anytime I get
the chance to talk more aboutit, so I'm looking forward to it
hey, maybe a quick intro forour listeners.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
How do you get started in golf?

Speaker 2 (02:32):
yeah, let me breathe.
I'm like probably a lot of uh,a lot of golf coaches had the
dream uh to play my um.
Ideas and dreams of that endedreally early with injuries
around 19 with my back, a lot ofinjuries throughout my uh
trying to come back around 19with my back, a lot of injuries
throughout my uh trying to comeback.
I've ended up having a lot ofsurgeries, but anyways, it led
to golf but.
But, looking back, it led toteaching golf.

(02:52):
But looking back onto it prior,I was um, as a kid since I'm
I'm older, I'm 52 before theinternet I was gathering golf,
digest, golf magazines that weretip top, tip magazines and even
as as a kid this is before Iknew I wanted to go coaching
route I was ripping out magazinearticles, categorizing them,
and I'm so glad I saved so muchof my stuff because it's so cool

(03:14):
looking back on it now, how Icategorize it, to how I would do
it now, you know, with how myinfluences have changed and
everything, but really what?
So I was always that guy and II'm sure I told everybody wrong
stuff, but I was the guy that asa kid that everybody came to
with questions um, hey, how doyou do this?
Because I was always reading onit.
I mean, I'm sure I was justtelling them what I read that
day in the in the magazine, youknow, at 14 or 15 years old.

(03:37):
But I was also just really, umreally intrigued by the swing.
And the truth about my golf gameis I was a terrible golfer.
My brother was really good, hewas a scratch golfer, he was
playing in all big state events.
My dad was a scratch golfer,playing in mid-ams and big stuff
at a caddy for him.
And I was absolutely brutallyhorrible.
Until about 14 years old I was10 or 12 handicap and the reason

(03:59):
I say it's horrible at that isbecause I practiced a lot, I
worked very hard the game andthat's the best I could get, the
best I get with coaching.
Well, I found David Ledbetterand his teachings and within two
years I was a plus two handicap.
So I was a very analyticalperson, which I'm still very
analytical.
I just needed and this is whatDavid and coaches back then

(04:20):
would laugh at me because I'dsay well, how do I get to this
position?
How do I get here?
Tell me, that's crazy forthinking about that stuff.
And then Ledbetter came around.
He said well, this is how youdo this, this is how you get to
this position, this is where youshould be at here.
And it all clicked to me reallyquick because I already put so
much effort into it, I didn'tneed to work on that and how to
practice.
So Ledbetter is my initial, I'dsay, mentor as far as how I

(04:47):
went as a coach.
But that's a quick summary kindof how I got into coaching.
Injuries got me out of it andthen Leadbearer kind of really
got me going after I became agood golfer.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
Did you work under David Sagan?
Did you work under David?

Speaker 2 (05:02):
I never worked under him.
No, just read everything Icould read on him, but never
worked under him.
No, just just read everything Icould read on him, and, but
never worked under him.
No, and and met a lot of peoplethat worked under him.
So I feel like I feel like Iknow him, but don't yeah, david
is one of those guys.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
That has been grossly misunderstood.
Everyone thinks of him as atechnical coach, but I think if
you've worked with him in person, if you've really spoken to him
about instruction, he'sanything but that.
He is actually maybe one of themost holistic instructors ever.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, why?

Speaker 3 (05:40):
do you think?

Speaker 2 (05:40):
that he did get turned.
I've heard him talk about thisexact topic that you're talking
about, and why do you think hedid get turned into the
technical and that's it.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
It's marketing, right , so it's easier to sell that.
Oh, step one, step two, and Ithink he's got this 11-piece
thing that he teaches to all thecertified instructors.
So from a marketing, from apedagogical standpoint, it's
easier to sell certifications,sell books, if you go hey, this

(06:12):
is the 15-step swing, this isthe five-step move, blah, blah,
blah.
You can't sell a golfinstruction book and say, hey,
you know what it's holisticstuff, it's not for everybody,
because there'll be too muchmaterial.
And what do the average retailgolfer want?
They think golf is easy, balldoesn't move.

(06:33):
So let's find something easy.
$50 book, five steps, let's go.
Jim McLean, eight steps swing.
You think about the golf swing,right, there are only two
positions set up and finish.
Everything else in between is amotion.
So it is hand-eye coordination.
Yes, it is set up, it's a bitof everything.

(06:56):
So David said something thatreally, really resonated with me
.
You can put someone on track,man foresight, three degree ease
into out, three degrees face topath, then you've got your
vertical swing plane at 60, 45,whatever the case may be.
He said, but it doesn't tellyou, the machine does not tell

(07:19):
you how the golfer get got thosenumbers.
When he said that it struck melike a stack of bricks.
I'm like that's absolutely true.
The thing doesn't tell you howhe got there.
I don't know what Jim Furyk'snumbers are, I don't know what
Gary Woodland's numbers are, butif both of them have a zero out

(07:41):
path, it certainly doesn't lookthe same how they got there no,
that's that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
I know I it.
That that's.
It's a great, that's a greatstatement.
He says I, I can get.
I can get trapped in times, Ithink, as a coach, especially in
the past, and getting toopositional at times and
especially I think I do it moreand I look at my own golf swing.
I can get too trapped in thatmode and that can be death.
Position Positioning.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
Yeah.
So there's this thing I'd liketo discuss with you, eric
Relative and absoluteinstruction.
So relative to a person's feelsand absolute to what the camera
shows.
So some of my students get ashock.
If they're too inside out onthe way down, I say, hey, you're
going to feel like you'reslicing the heck out of the golf

(08:29):
ball.
No, I don't want to do that, Idon't want to come over the top.
I say, just do it, let's seewhat the camera says.
And they're shocked becausetypically when they do the
opposite, the extreme opposite,what they tend to end up with is
something in the middle.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yep, nice tight draw probably from that one.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, yeah, and tell me right, if this is your
experience, a lot of studentsdon't want to buy into the, the
extremes of it, and I know I'mgetting ahead of myself.
I want to talk about the johnjacobs method, but what I like
to tell golfers is this right,what you feel and what you see
are totally different things.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of credos to it, I think
you know.
I like to, like you said, showpeople the difference.
You know.
I, for instance, said a guytoday same scenario, way inside
eight to 10 out, and I'm justlike we got it way over the top.
And one of the videos I like toshow is there's one of Alex
Noren, or you can find back inthe day.

(09:31):
There's one also of I'mforgetting his name.
He won the US.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Corey.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Pavin, corey Pavin.
Yeah, and I showed him this.
I'm like, just do it, just dothis.
And you know, and he tried todo it, and this is what I talked
about.
Tight draw, like just do it,just do this.
And you know, and he tried todo it, and this is what I talked
about tight draw.
He ended up plus three, you know, on his path and he's like that
just felt awful.
You know he's like well, youknow, look at the video and
let's look at it.
You're a plus three.

(10:01):
So that's the field we'retrying to go for, is that?
And I him to get more insideand he had gone so far to the
extreme inside, and you know.
So I showed him here's acheckpoint you can walk, check
and I'm big into using forcheckpoint.
I like to look at p6 a lot.
Um, you know, when you videoand say, hey, if this club's a
little bit behind your handsthere, we're probably in a
pretty good spot for coming fromthe inside.

(10:21):
You know, if this club at p6,which is parallel to the grounds
outside your hand line, the petis, you're probably coming
across a little bit.
So he didn't have anycheckpoints before he came to me
, so he had just taken this asfar inside as he could.
And now he said he was hittingbehind it when he came to see me
because he got too far inside.
So we got that better and thatfixed his um hitting his low
point, moved up to four in frontafter that too.

(10:43):
But you're so right that peopledon't, especially ones that are
over the top and went to theinside or a little more inside
out.
They hate that thought ofcoming over the top because
they've worked hard to get outof it.
They associate bad golfers withthat move.
So you tell them to do that.
But typically when I show thembetter golfers practicing that
move, they're like oh okay, Iguess it's okay for me to try it

(11:04):
and then then to see theresults.
Hopefully you can stick with itwith some checkpoints.
But yeah, I agree a hundredpercent with you, this field
thing getting them to feel it.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah, and I think that is really the Rosetta stone
to understanding all the golfmagazines that we see out there
today.
You find you find you pick upany generic magazine out there
and they will talk about curinggolf faults with seemingly very

(11:36):
diametrically opposed drills,and I think that really stems
from a feel versus realdifference and really
understanding what I feel is notreal.
Yeah, I think once you look atthat, then you can understand
what these top players aresaying.
Like, for example, jackNicklaus used to say I can't

(11:58):
throw the club down, I can'trelease the club early enough,
and then you've got another guysaying, hey, you've got to hang
on for dear life the club earlyenough.
And then you got another guysaying, hey, you gotta hang on
for dear life.
Yeah, it's like, hey, both aregreat players, but these two,
these two uh tips orinstructionals, seem to be at
the opposite ends of thespectrum well, I feel like
that's what the I try.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
You should never pay attention to what other players
say they're feeling or getadvice on the feel.
I try to never give any heelsaway to anybody.
Like well, what?
Like well, what should I befeeling?
I go.
I have no idea what you shouldfeel, but let me show you how
you can gain a feel by doingthis move.
Let's close your eye.
I'll go through a bunch ofdifferent steps of doing this.
Let's do this drill, do it afew times.
I'll usually have to do it withtheir eyes closed and I go

(12:39):
let's later.
But you got to figure out how topick it up, because each day
we're not going to have the samefeel that we can go back to.
A lot of times it's going to begone the next day because our
body feels different.
I do think, though, that what Inotice is some like I feel like
you get the, the player that'sless supported, let's say, and
maybe not as good as golfer,versus the higher level, and
they still have a disassociationbetween feeling real, but I

(13:01):
feel like sometimes theirs getsa little closer because they
have a better perception ofwhere the club face is in space.
The better player.
So I feel like although they'renot correct in the end, because
I think one of the worst thingsthat ever happened to golf was
jack nicholas had this articleway back I think it was in the
70s some point that talked abouthow we're supposed to move our
weight and it was 80, 20, get 80back.

(13:22):
You know, and that to me isevery golfer I see that's, I'd
say, most every golfer I see hasstruggles with that move and
they all say 80-20.
And I think it all stemmed fromarticles back in the past of 80%
of your weight, your mass,getting to your back foot.
And then you know, whatever, 20on the lead foot, and it's just
, it's destroyed golfers becausethey're on their back foot at
the top of the backswing.

(13:42):
And that may have been what hefelt.
But we can go through now, Imean, and look at these books
that were written a long timeago and say, well, I'm sorry,
they're actually just talkingabout fields, that really wasn't
what was happening in theirgolf swing.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
You know when, when I understood that, I felt that my
, my teaching went to the nextlevel, it went to the
stratosphere.
Because now when I look at mystash of golf books in my
library I go, oh okay, I can usethis feel on this guy for that
fault and try to, as you say,not exactly tell them what them

(14:24):
what to feel, but hey, like whatthe golfing machine says, let
mechanics produce and let feelreproduce.
I said, hey, I usually tell mymy guys don't ever tell me what
you're feeling because the veryact of you trying to categorize
the feel you may corrupt that,that sense.
It Just realize, okay, this,whatever, whatever is this and

(14:49):
just repeat this or that.
Yeah like that and it just, itjust helps.
Helps my guys when I explain itto them the way you just
explained it.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, I mean we're trying to do whatever we can to
get them better as quick aspossible, right?
Yeah?
Yeah, we know that's.
The quickest way is to get themto be able to reproduce some
kind of field they're gaining.
You know how we get thereTeachers may get there different
ways, or instructors may getthere different ways, but
hopefully in the end they'reable to gain those fields that

(15:25):
we're trying to get them to get.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Yeah, let's go back to how you've actually started
playing golf, get on the path toimprovement.
You mentioned that you arenaturally a curious person and
through interviewing topinstructors such as yourself
over the years, I realized thatand obviously this is true in
all facets of our life.
Our experiences shape us towhere we are today, and I think

(15:53):
being curious is such animportant part of being great at
anything, because that leadsyou to think of, to be solution
oriented.
Most of the lesser instructorsthat I've also had the privilege
of observing.
They just do the same thingover and over and over again and

(16:14):
, as Einstein said, you keepdoing the same thing but
expecting a different result.
That's the very definition ofinsanity, Correct?
So with that in mind, right,what are your, what's your
philosophy Like?
When a student walks through toyour studio, is there a process

(16:37):
that you put them through?

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, I would say there is an absolute process,
and I feel like that's what I'vegotten better at forming
throughout the years, I guess,is putting a process in place,
which I don't find a bad thing.
I remember watching this thingwhere Butch Harmon said

(16:59):
something kind of negativetowards Stack and Tilt about
this process.
Oh, everybody comes in, it'sjust this process.
And then the interviewer goes.
So okay, and then he's talkingto Butch for a little bit.
He goes, so Butch, what's itlike when somebody comes and
sees you?
He goes well, the first thing Ido is I ask him this, then I
ask him this, then we do this,we do this and he goes.
That kind of sounds like aprocess you got there.
Processes are pretty good.

(17:25):
Right to go through a process,as long as you have a good one
of what you're doing.
I mean, first off, I try to getto know the player.
Um, I want to know who they are, what they're thinking, what is
their, what is in their headabout what this golf swing is,
what do they do for a living?
I like to know because I wantto know are they analytical, are
they non-analytical?
Are they?
Are they gonna be moretouchy-feely, do they?
Are they gonna be an engineerwhere I'm talking numbers and
data to them, like I kind of gota picture of that first, and
then I want to see how theirhead's been.

(17:47):
I want to say what is theirpicture of the golf swing
already in their head?
And usually I feel like we'refighting that a lot for a lot of
golfers is what this crazypicture they have in their head
is, and debunking myths I feellike is a big part of my job
nonstop.
So after I get those thingsdown, I'm looking at their swing

(18:08):
and during this time I've alsodone a little evaluation.
I just do a quick TPI to seewhere I've asked about injuries,
I'm seeing how they can move,trying to find out if there's
restrictions before we get intothings, and a lot of times I'm
doing some of these things whileI'm doing the initial videos.
Let's say we're doing the firstlesson, gathering data, so I'll
use video, I'll use my TrackMan, I'll use Sportsbox to get some

(18:32):
better, a little deepermeasurements if I want to use
those, and then after that it'sjust finding honing in.
I like to spend time with themafter this first lesson, which I
always do, my first lesson fortwo hours, because I feel like
it takes time to explain thesethings to them and I want to

(18:54):
give them a clear picture ofwhere we're going to go, and my
philosophy really boils aroundis and this probably goes back
to Leadbetter, but I trulybelieve on my own is just that
Do we want the tail to wag thedog or the dog to wag the tail
like?
I believe this, the way we moveour body, is just so important
and I it's very I don't, I don'tthink I've ever seen anybody
move their body really good andnot be a decent golfer, you know
, like with good tilts and notswaying, not, not up.

(19:16):
And I've never, like I justhaven't seen it.
I see a lot of bad golfers thathave poor body motions, like.
So I I usually will start myassuming they don't have a good
body motion.
I start off working on theirbody, which is, you know,
working on some rotationaldrills, just club across the,
you know, chest getting.
I'd like I love mirror work, um, getting them in a mirror with
some lines on showing them howwe move, and it's very hard for

(19:39):
most of them and I show it and Ijust tell them right there.
You figure this part out whichcan be done at home, not in a
golf course.
You can become a really goodgolfer because I'll tell them
that story.
There's not any I don't know agood golfer yet or a bad golfer
that can do this move and it canbe done all at home.
But not a lot of people want tospend time on that, on just
working on their rotation.
So I try to.

(20:10):
I try to go for low hangingfruit as best as I can, you know
, and I also try to find outwhat do they want out of this.
I think we're delivering in ourlesson.
You know, I'd say in the pastwhere I may have gone wrong
years ago was I tried to deliverwhat I wanted and that was to
them go home and practice, youknow, and I never thought people
would practice a ton every day,but I wanted them to put in
some amount of practice dailyand my daily practice, I tell
people, is at home, like youdon't have to go to range,

(20:32):
there's tons of stuff you can doin mirror at home.
Commit to five to 15 minutes aday and you're the fruits of
your labor are going to be,you're going to become a good
golfer if you can commit to thatand it's not asking a ton.
But I found out that a lot ofpeople don't want to do that.
So I prescribe what they wantand I find out what they want
and then I try to give them whatthey want.
So if somebody's going topractice more, they'll get a

(20:54):
little different story from me.
Or some just tell me no, Idon't want to embarrass myself,
I need to quit to learn.
Stop chunking this thing.
So that person is going to geta way different lesson than the
other person.
So, um, you know, I think longand short of it.
I'd say, if you boil everythingdown to it, I just want golfers
to strike the ball better.
I, I, I, it's all to me.
So much golf is boiled aroundlow point, getting a consistent

(21:16):
low point.
So we've come.
Consistent blows my mind and Ilook a lot at like golf
professionals say what do all ofthem do?
What do?
And then, what do amateurs notdo?
Well, most amateurs don't hitthe ball first, but every pro
does Right.
So it seems like somethingshould be probably a priority

(21:37):
that we should.
So every lesson that's cominginto me I don't care who you are
First lesson, where we are,we're working on hitting that
ball.
First.
We're doing drills that are forare performed around impact.
Um, we're going to start withball striking and we'll build up
from there, but it's everythingI do is built around, I'd say,
ball striking and becoming abetter ball striker.
Um, you know, if you're a pro,you obviously don't need to work

(21:58):
on getting um your low pointmore forward.
I don know you may needconsistency, help with it, but
probably not.
So that's a different story.

Speaker 3 (22:07):
You know, I said this on an interview with Mark
Immelman.
I said what's the one thingthat all pros have in common,
all really good players have incommon?
And then I said this is notimpact you said it's not impact.
It's not impact it's not impact, it's not the common thing,
because if you look, if youreally, if you really put all
these top pros under the themagnifying glass, all of them

(22:30):
look different at impact you'resaying straighter.
Yes, some guys have more shaftlean, some guys have a
straighter leg.
Oh yeah, some guys have morerotational and whatever you you
look at Louis Oosthuizen, he'sgot left wrist extension very
different from Sergio Garcialeft wrist affliction.

(22:50):
But the common thing is thiswhere the club hits the ground,
it hits the ground after it hitsthe ball.
So when I explain that togolfers, as you say, it's like
someone turned the lights on.
It's like, oh, I didn't realizethat.
What do you mean by hit theground?
And I find that, just going backto what you were saying about

(23:12):
string pictures, I kind of feelthat instructors like yourself
and myself, we're like artists.
We need to paint pictures inpeople's head.
And back to what you said, alot of golfers cannot imagine
themselves swinging like, say,call it a fret couples.
They cannot imagine mr abc,myself, swinging like that.

(23:33):
All they can see is this shittystring of themselves cutting
across that bad setup and andall of that.
Yeah, and you said somethingthat really, really resonated
with me move the body well, butbefore that, how does one get
into position to move the bodywell?

(23:54):
And too often I see golferswith maybe too much extension in
the upper body and and too muchextension in the upper body and
too much flexion in the lowerbody and that results in too
much weight in the heels andit's just impossible to set the
club correctly.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
Keep the hands in front of ourselves during the P1
, p2, the takeaway phase of thegolf swing, and I know you are a
big guy on the takeaway, soplease dispense your pearls of
wisdom for all this well, I, Isay this, it's, you know, I, I

(24:32):
would say, one of the things Ifeel like that's hard, uh, in
our industry, and maybe both ofyou could tell me your, your um
thoughts on it um, relaying tostudents the importance of setup
.
They're there, they've spent alot of money to come see you,
they want these tricks, theywant this thing.

(24:52):
They haven't heard of beforethen, this dumb little setup
issue where so much can besolved at setup.
And so maybe that's my poor job, I guess, and maybe not
relaying it well enough at times, but I feel like just trying to
get that across to people isjust the importance of it, and I
feel like why?
Because anybody can do it,anybody can get in good posture

(25:13):
and how can I?
not see people.
I don't see most people in goodpostures.
People have horrible posturesand you know, even you know it's
, it's, it's, um, it's not thathard to get in a good one, and
you know it's.
So I you know why takeaway, whyis it so important to me?
Um, I, just my belief is, if Istart the backswing, um, you

(25:36):
know, typically we we see thisright and most swings we see a
person go like this the hands goout, club goes back, right.
So if you're looking down theline, you see somebody's hands
go out in the club, they getbehind them and the club head is
wide open or toes point way upor even wide open here, right,
so this is a typical takeawaythat we see.

(25:57):
Right, what did we not see whenI just did that?
My body move at all.
So I'm a firm believer if Idon't get my body involved from
the very beginning, that I'mnever going to recruit it
correctly again.
It's just, it's too late, right?
What am I going to do if Idon't have any movement there?
So I just feel like, if we canget started from I even try my
students get to p like a one anda half just over their thigh.

(26:19):
Yeah, if they can get just totheir thigh, feeling just, you
know, like if you put that clubin your belly button and move it
just to your thigh with yourarms extended, you'll kind of
see what that move is.
Your belly button, chest, movea little bit.
Now some people will feel theirback, their, you know, their lat
moving it back.
Some will feel their chest,some will feel their belly
taking it back, you know, somefeel it somewhere else in their

(26:40):
core.
I, you know it, I don't likethem feeling in their hips
because then they over-rotatetheir hips and suck the blood
too far inside.
But yeah, it's a really simplethought.
I just like to feel them get itstarted.
That way the whole body isrecruited and I feel like then
you're kind of off to the races.
It's a lot easier from thatpoint to keep the body moving
and keeping some of that youknow, I say some of that, some

(27:02):
of those dimensions that I liketo keep, of keeping my hands,
you know, kind of this hub handsin front of the chest longer
and so completely gone from it.
So, um, yeah, I, I think it'ssuper critical and it's
something that can be one ofthose things again that can be
practiced at home.
You don't need a range to workon this thing.
Do it in a mirror.
You don't even need a mirrorreally, but you can just do it
and set a couple alignmentsticks up, um, for you know, to

(27:25):
have drills, uh, put a ballbehind your club and just push
it straight back is another way.
You're going to be in a goodposition.
We do that, you'll find out.
Your hands are never going togo out doing that in the club
back, you're going to move yourhands a little bit inwards and
your club will stay out withoutyou doing anything, just gonna
happen.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
Absolutely, absolutely, like from down the
line view.
A lot of people don'tunderstand that the hands need
to stay in for the club to stayout.
Yeah, it's, it's such arevelation for them.
Yeah, and you know you.
You mentioned about theimportance of the setup.
So what I normally say to getpeople's attention is this the

(28:01):
setup and the backswing is 90 ofyour golf game.
That gets their attention andthen the importance of takeaway.
I always say this right thetakeaway is like a rolex watch.
Everything moves together insync.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
I love it I love it.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yeah, so the the 90 thing was taught to me by my
mentor, calvin Mayer.
Here, so one of the first fewguys that uh overlaid anatomy on
the golf swing.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
And that was his uh finding.
You may have heard of him.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Oh, I've read as much of this stuff as I can and you
know, try to.
I try to keep it between myears because that I love.
I wish he was still around.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Oh, he is still around, but he's retired from
teaching golf he is still around.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Kelvin Miyahura is still around.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
Yeah, he's still around.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
I didn't know he was.
I thought he was gone.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
No, no, he is.
I speak to him every week.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
I had no idea.
Okay, I thought he was gone.
He's just out of golf.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
No, he fell sick.
And then he in 2017, yeah, andthen he decided to retire oh
okay, I, I guess, I, I guess, I.
I thought he passed when he gotsick no, no, no, you, we can
take this offline, but if you,if you need anything about his
stuff, okay, because I tried tofind as much stuff as his I can

(29:22):
and I tried to read everything Icould on his and um.
I got it, man, I got youcovered bro.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Okay, gosh, wow, that's crazy.
I can't believe this.
That's amazing.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
I don't know the power of the internet.
Right here I am in Singapore,you in Arizona and Kelvin in in
Hawaii connected through theinternet.
It's insane.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Yeah, it's insane, amazing.
Yeah, that's crazy Okay.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
So let's talk about your main influences, Like who,
who are your?
Whose teachings have reallymade you into the top instructor
that you are today?

Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, I obviously David Ledbetter when?
Um still to this day, um, butI've never, I've never worked
with him personally.
Um, everything that he does.
He formed so many of my earlythoughts and everything through
all the readings I did of his,and it still obviously sticks
with me today.
Um, um, and I try to, you know,hear, read or listen by every

(30:21):
book or everything I can that hehas to say I try to listen to
or read or whatever.
Um, I'm a big reader.
I like, I like to read things,not just see, not just watch
videos.
Um, I feel like I get more outof it.
But, um, you know, hugh Marr isa big mentor of mine.
Um, for sure, we work togethernow.

(30:41):
I share lessons of mine withhim.
And, hey, what do you thinkabout what I'm doing here?
Blah, blah, blah.
You know stuff like that.
He's a great friend of ours oh,really good, good, yeah, good,
yeah, I love you man.
He's incredible and doing great, great things for coaches out
there too.
Um, uh, dr mark bull, uh, Ilike to work with he.

(31:03):
He's a guy that has 3d yes, yes, he has opened my mind to he.
What he does for me is he makesme question everything, so I
say something, and then he sayssomething like oh no, oh, geez,
okay, I gotta go rethink thatagain, but um so, did you get
his?

Speaker 3 (31:21):
uh, he, he put out this manual of coaching and it's
not exactly it.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
I have all four.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
It's not exactly a manual.
But no, I said to him like heylook, dude, this thing is like a
compendium of Yoda like things.
Yeah, I said I can't make itpast to every time I read it.
I read one line.
I go like OK, I've got to comeback to this like in a week's
time, like that's so funny.
Yeah, that's so funny because Iread one.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
That's.
That's what it is, because I Ihave all four of them, and when
I get it I'll read it all, andthen I can.
I do one a day yeah because it'susually one of them is so deep.
That's all you think about some.
Some aren't.
They're little quips, he'll say, but, like you said, they are
there, they are.
That's so funny too, yeah, thatyou read that.
Um, I love it.
He, he, just, he makes youthink about move.

(32:12):
I guess before really meetinghim, I had not thought about
movement the way I did, and now,um, he, he makes me.
I mean, it tells you how muchmore I need to learn being
around him Also, but justunderstanding the questions you
ask people matter.
There's so many things that gointo it that I've just learned

(32:33):
from him and just how we moveand what we're like.
You said something earlier aboutour environment, how it
influences us.
Yeah, I just started startedworking a guy that came in from,
um, you know, the east coast ofireland.
I mean, what do you think?
He is like?
The ball barely gets off theground and he's like, but that's
what he needed when he grew upright and and playing golf, he

(32:56):
had formed a shot that's as lowas can be and runs, but his
environment formed us.
So understanding environment'shuge, but, um, so, yeah, dr bull
.
And then, um, you know anotherone is, uh, we know is, uh, tony
manzoni.
So, um, one of the things andtony's no longer around but one
of the things is I in myteaching and I found that is I
always this 80 20 thing alwaysbothered me in my coaching and I

(33:19):
never understood becauseeverybody kept coming in there
on their back foot.
I'm like this is just crazy andand I never um, I I'm not gonna
say I'm not a stacking tilt guy,I've read it.
I like so much of what they do,um, but I I don't teach 100
everything they say, um, so butI always I've taught a lot about
and and one of the things I didwhen, um, I like doing a lot of

(33:42):
drills where I call it heelstogether, toes apart, feet
together, so you have basicallyone axis to turn around Right,
and I start to see people starthitting the ball well, and you
see chaos happen when feet getapart.
So in my teaching I justgravitated to those more
swinging around this left leg,more being more on this left
side.
And then I found Tony Manzoni.
I'm like, oh my, my gosh,that's exactly what he's talking

(34:04):
about and just kind of you know, and not that I thought I was
doing anything crazy, just I'mon my own doing this.
It's just, I never even reallythought about it.
I is.
This is just how I was teachingmore people.
I'd put on their left side,staying there swinging around
their left leg and they hit theball so much better.
But I really didn't know and Ihad no idea that there were
other people out there doingthat.
And you know, you knew StaticTilt did some stuff.

(34:24):
But also I had no idea Tony wasdoing it and when I found out
that I was like, oh, this isamazing.
So it was neat to see what hehad put down in the book and in
words that I hadn't even Ididn't even really know that's
what I was doing.
But I was doing it because Ifound out that's what is for

(34:46):
them to be a little um, theydon't is to get them more off
their trail side and they becomebetter golfers that way.
So I'd say those are my umbiggest.
I'd say you know I have a bunchof others.
You know that I'd say are kindof influenced.
Those are my biggest ones.
I say that influence me.
I'm like.
I'm like coach.
You know scott kowks a lot too.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Oh yeah, um, yeah, I so I've done all of his uh
classes yeah, I started at six.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Was there some before that?
So I didn't.
Six is where I started.
So plenty, yeah, so yeah, um,those are.
He's incredible with this stuff.
Um, there's a lot, there's somany good.
You know you can find so muchgood stuff out there.
Um, it's a matter offormulating into your own, I
think.

(35:27):
Uh figure out what you're gonnado in order to make the golfers
that come see you better?

Speaker 3 (35:32):
exactly so.
Just earlier we talked aboutwhat why do.
Why did david let better get sotechnical in quotation marks?
It's because if we tried towrite a book about what we just
discussed in the last 10 minutes, I don't know, it's going to be
a thousand pages.
No one's going to buy it you'reright and I think, like

(35:54):
instructors such as yourself,who, who's so open-minded, so
curious for for improvingthemselves, when you kind of go
out there, it becomes like anart form, like I learned this
from Tony Manzoni, I learnedthis from John Jacobs kind of
like put it in together and it'slike an algorithm, right as you
say, your process, like what?

(36:15):
What you observed about ButchHarmon.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
Great instructors like yourself.
When I observe them, it's kindof going like okay, I've seen
enough.
In their head it goes click,click, click, click, click, boom
, this is what comes out.
But before you have the click,click, click, you're going to
have the material inside.
Man, yeah.
And the better the player youteach, the more granular the

(36:41):
information needs to be.
You can't be just telling me asetup okay, maybe if you're a 24
handicapper, you're justgetting a generic setup.
But if you're a better player,like, okay, what's the angle of
the right femur from face on?
How is that going to affectyour ground forces?
For example, what's the lengthof your limbs in relation to

(37:02):
your hips?
How is that going to inform usabout stance width?
The wider the stance, is itgoing to increase our horizontal
ground forces?
And then you kind of look atthat against the kinematic
sequence.
Is that what we want?
Against what the ball flightproduce looks like.
And this is an ongoing exerciseand the really, really good

(37:25):
instructors such as yourselfdon't skip a beat.
You can't tell he's allchecking something, it's just
all in the head whirring in thebackground.
And that's the amazing thingabout guys such as yourself.
Well you know, hats off to you,man.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Oh, no, hats off to you.
I appreciate the kind words.
I still feel like you know.
One thing I've learned in golfis that if you ask me what I
knew 15 years ago, maybe 20years, I'd say I knew a lot.
You ask me today, I'm going totell you I don't know that much.
I feel like the gap has gottenwider and wider and it's just
because I think the more youlearn, you know, the more you

(38:04):
know you don't know.
And I think just the constantcalculus that you know good
coaches have you know, such asyou guys, that you want to be
able to help everybody.
You want to know those things.
And I think the hard thingabout golf is is that you know.
You look at something and sayyou see something on your launch

(38:25):
monitor.
Like to me, every change I makelike has to affect something,
otherwise why am I doing it likeI'm not changing somebody's
like takeaway unless I know thatthere's something I want to to
reflect eventually on this ballflight that I'm going to see in
my launch monitor.
So there has to be this thereis always going to be cause
effect for any changes we make.
So what are they going to beand are they going to be the

(38:45):
ones that you want, right?
So that's the thing that takesa while to learn.
If I change this wrist angle,or I change this, or if I change
, if I put this foot out alittle more, or if I open it up
my left foot, so is that goingto change the ground reaction
forces?
So then, how does that changethe way the person comes through
impact?
There's these calculations thatthe better you get, hopefully

(39:06):
you're a lot better predictingthose and what the result is
going to be, instead of at thevery beginning, when someone's
like, oh, do this drill, I saw,you know, let's see if this one
works, or what, right.
So and I explain that to thestudents, like, okay, we're
gonna do this to see if thishappens, you know, and there's
times I've had to say, oh well,oops, that's not happening.
Okay, we're not getting it.

(39:26):
You know, let's, let's, let'sgo this, let's do this.
Uh, over here to do it, youknow, but it's, it's not.
You know, hopefully we getbetter at it every day, but it's
, um, you know, that calculus,like you're saying, of knowing
what you're going to, the changeyou make and the result that's
going to come out of it is iswhat we're, I think, striving
for.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
Basically, I think.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
I think what we're saying is you need experience in
so many words, a boatload, aboatload right Of experience.
But you know, and I'd say, gotit.
You have to be around, you haveto, and I think you nailed on a
lot of it.
But if you want to be a goodgolf coach which is probably a
lot of things you have to wantto go under the hood, because I

(40:07):
just don't, I don't think, youknow, maybe if there was some
teaching out there that we got,you know, like I think everybody
ought to be a golf coach shouldhave to go through a ton of
anatomy first before they docoaching.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
And I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
I wasn't given any of that when I started.
So I'm probably telling I'msure I was telling people stuff
back in the day to do stuff.
There was no way they could do,you know, like I didn't know.
I had no idea how it wasconnected to what when I started
and they didn't you know.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
PJ any of it, so you had you have to learn it on your
own right.
Yeah, so that's why.
That's why tpi has found aniche for themselves.
Yeah, yeah, and we mentionedexperience.
I just want to say that I'm soprivileged to be teaching this
game next year my 20th year nowso privileged to be, to be doing
this, and it's.
It's fun, right.
Like meeting instructors suchas yourself on Zoom.
I learn from each interview Iconduct.

(41:04):
It makes me a better coach.
That's what makes me do this,and I'm sure it's the same for
Jesse and our common mentor,huma.
He really challenged me, right.
He said if you can't fix aproblem in three balls, you
don't know what you're doing.
Yeah, who?

Speaker 2 (41:21):
told you that Humor.
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
It's so true.
I'm like wow.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
So every time.
So so right now on Instagram,when I, when I do videos of my
kids and golfers, I put hashtagthe three ball challenge and
it's a personal challenge tomyself.
Yeah, I can't fix this in threeshots, I don't know what I'm
doing.
I better go go check the causeand effect manual again.

(41:48):
Yeah, and I think I think againit's about challenging yourself
as an instructor.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
That takes you to the next level it does and you know
and he will tell you.
You don't have to come up withthat answer in 30 seconds.
Watching him, like you know, hesaid sometimes he's sat there
15 minutes looking at this goingoh what?
You know, 30 minutes.
What am I doing here with thisguy?
But took his time to come upwith it and then does it, which
is way I mean way better thanjust throwing stuff out, like I

(42:16):
see it all the time.
I'm sure you guys have all seenother coaches do it.
They start throwing all thisstuff out, seeing what sticks on
the wall, and that doesn't getconfidence from the players.
They get confidence when youfix it quickly.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
It's what I call the problem of having too many toys.
You've got too many toys toplay with the golfers.
Sometimes you get confusedyourself, but at the same time
you've got to have all thosetoys.
But it's again experienceknowing what toy to use to fix
that particular problem.
And really it goes back to yourprocess about understanding the

(42:52):
golfer as a human being.
It's not just a golfer If he'sstuck in an office all day,
hasn't played any sports hiswhole life, like okay, we got to
use the, the easiest fix forhim.
He's not gonna have time to go.
Try to understand why you needto have your setup in xyz

(43:13):
position, just give it to him,whereas a more curious guy such
as yourself like I, gottaexplain why we're doing this and
the knock-on effects, the downthe line effects yeah for sure.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
Yeah, I mean, it's everybody's different and I
think that's what makes it sofun.
Every, all your, all ourlessons, it's what you know.
I'm giddy waking up everymorning, coach.
Everything is different everyhour, every two hours.
However we do it, you knoweverything's always changing and
it's even somebody you coachall the time that comes in
weekly to see you or whatever.
Their body is changing, theirquestions are changing, you know

(43:46):
, or you're going to a new levelupwards.
So that challenges you too.
You know.
Why are they not getting betterquick enough?
You know.
So there's, you know.
Then there's so many facets ofthe game to get into.
Um, they're just, you know,wonderful that make our job, you
know, so great.
So I'd say I don't know.
But I've always thought this Idon't know how interested I'd be
in this game of golf anymore If, if we had not had the

(44:09):
explosion of what happened aftertrack man.
You know we got.
I don't think I would enjoy itthat much.
I don't even know if I'd bedoing it right now.
I really don't, because whatwas it?
It was I would.
I would maybe try to get asecret out of you guys, because
I found out you guys are doingsomething good with people.
I'm like, hey, you would maybewouldn't want to tell me your
secret or the stuff that was outthere.

(44:31):
That was just, you know, crazy.
And you know they like to saythey did and and and there's a
lot of stuff that's just flatout wrong.
I mean, I know, I taught it,you know, so, um, you know, and
nowadays, with the evidence wehave, it's just I like this, so
it's evidence-based.
So that's why you tell mystudents, hey, this isn't me

(44:51):
just guessing, um, this isevidence-based.
So I and which to me, makes alot better than me just telling
somebody what to do this is.
We already know, we know itworks, I know the answer because
we have physics in our game,finally, instead of just
guessing.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Indeed, and with track man, with 3d motion
analysis, with four splits, youcould argue that there are no
more secrets left in the golfswing.
Yet improvement for somegolfers seem to be fleeting.
The PGA average is more or lessthe same.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
So what do you think?

Speaker 3 (45:37):
You hit the nail on the head.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
We are still all you have to do is people to me.
I tell people this I I do ayear-long program with over half
my students are in my year-longprogram.
We meet weekly and you know alot of them get really, really
good.
But there's there's always thispeople that after a certain
amount of time they're improving.
And what is the issue?

(45:59):
100%.
Always I talk to them and it'sthis hard conversation.
Their practice is horrible.
They're not doing what I said.
They don't have the ability, orI wouldn't say they don't have
the ability, but they haven'tlearned the ability yet to learn
to put their process over theresult.
So many people you go to thedriving range.
I think they did this study.
I know they did this study andI don't remember exactly how it

(46:20):
worked, but it was somethingabout they gave golfers five
balls and then told them to dothis certain move and if, after
two to three balls, most of themquit, if they hit it bad and if
they would have stayed with itthrough five, which the other
ones did they improved.
So it was a better move.
But most people couldn't handlehitting two bad shots in a row

(46:41):
with the result instead ofsaying, oh, this is just the
process I'm going through.
I'll work through it.
So people are too, you knowthey're result oriented, they
don't want to follow the process, and I just think it's the
human element where they have toget better at that.
It's the human element wherethey have to get better at that.
There's so much as a coach youcan do, but you cannot.

(47:01):
You can teach them how topractice too, but you can't be
in their mind and give them themental fortitude.
I think that's why golfers, Idon't think, have gotten better
for the most part as amateurs.
It all boils down to practice,because coaching to me for the
most part, well, I'd say there'sa lot of really good coaching
out there if they want to findit Okay.
So the good coaching is outthere.
So what's the problem?
Why aren't you getting better?
It's still you, the person.

(47:22):
So what's wrong?
Your practice stinks, and nowmaybe they haven't been taught
practice yet how to practiceproperly.
But if they have, which youknow, then it comes down to them
.
Why do you not have the abilityto focus on this?
Why can you hit 15 ballsinstead of a hundred and go
through this process, right?

Speaker 3 (47:42):
So human, basically the the one to pay the price for
what they want.
Yeah, price to be paid.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Huge and golf is one that's very uh.
I mean I tell my students,especially the new ones and
maybe I'm wrong in saying this,but I tell them it's very hard,
it's a very hard sport.
And I say, especially the onesthat come to me, new, and tell
me they're not trying to becomea PGA Tour player, and I'm like
I know you're not.
I'm glad we don't have to worryabout that.
It's not going to happen.

(48:12):
You're paying for me.
I'm going to be honest, rightfor me.
I'm gonna be honest, right, andyou know so somebody.
Maybe I'm too blunt at times,but I think they have to know
that this is a hard sport.
It doesn't mean we can't getthem hitting the ball and making
contact, you know, and gettingthe ball down, the getting down
being okay, but you know to actlike this game's easy.
I hear too often like, go backto when you were a little child

(48:32):
and be free, and when you justdid all this I'm like god, I
sucked as I sucked as a kid.
What do you mean?
How?
How is that true?
You know, like I hear that allthe time, I'm like that can't be
true, because I was terrible asa kid.
I see a lot of juniors come tome that are terrible.
So there's not.
It's just not this freedom aswe were kids.
I think it's a.
You know, there's some that getthrough it and they're the
anomalies I, yeah I think Ithink you hit the nail on the

(48:56):
head right.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
The golf swing is easy, I feel, but the game is
hard.
I mean it doesn't take take alot for someone to understand
how to use their tool and hitdecent shots correct.
Carry the ball 230, 240.
That doesn't mean you're goingto be shooting the 70s all the
time, because environmentchanges all the time.
Your physical condition changesfrom hole to hole.

(49:20):
Even uh, where your ball landschanges all the time, so it's a
tough game.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Everything is in the constant state of change yeah,
and I mean and I feel liketalking about low hanging fruit
improving people's scores.
You know it's pretty easy to do.
If you can track and measuremost golfers what they do on the
course.
You know you take your upper 80, shooter your pie, I tell
people most, any golfer, unlessthey're really good, you can

(49:47):
shave at least five strokes offthe run pretty easy going out
with them, maybe even 10, youknow just on the way they play.
You know they're going forfront pins with bad distances.
I mean you see it out there.
They look at their cart.
It says 180 to the pin.
They go grab whatever club theythink is a 180 club.
Well, it's like wait, there's alot of factors involved here
that are going into this.

(50:08):
Where's the pin right?
What are the slopes on thegreen?
Where's our hazards?
Do you really carry that thing180 or is that your best swing
ever?
That's your best swing ever?
You really hit that 165.
So, like you know, they came toa recent study in 2024 did

(50:31):
where 85% of shots by allamateurs come up short.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
What does that?

Speaker 2 (50:33):
say I mean, you know, people don't hit what they
think they can.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
Yeah, they don't really understand their averages
.
Right, and that's the greatthing.
Like a radar launch monitors,like track man for silent flight
scope, come in.
It gives you a true picture ofwhat you're actually doing.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Yeah, correct For sure.
So yeah, a lot, a lot, a lot ofstuff with golfers that you
know that just with a littlelittle little tweaks they can
shoot much better scores.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
What's the fastest way for golfers in general, the
lower the scores, besides goingout with you.
What's your observation?

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Oh, to lower the scores.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
Yes, in general.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
Oh, I think, improve.
If you're talking about scoring, I say just improve your.
I think there's a few stats youcan keep, very real simple but
improving.
We know there's a few stats youcan keep.
They're real simple, butimproving.
We know there's a directcorrelation in greens and
regulation to your score.
Mit did a study If you takeyour greens, hit in regulation
multiply that by two andsubtract it by 95, and then you

(51:32):
have your score there.
So it's pretty easy to see howimportant that is.
I like to add on to that thisis a real simple one penalty
strokes off the tee and then howmany times does it take you?
Three strokes within 30 yards.
And those are a few stats.
But you know, if you just keepthat, if you just keep greens
regulation, when you get better,yeah, let's add on some more

(51:53):
and let's get more in depth onhow close you are on the greens
and stuff like that.
But just starting wise, hitgreens, you know, aim for the
middle of the green.
I know that's hard.
But the other thing I thinkgolfers don't get the amateur
golfers.
They see, you know Tiger Woodsor whatever.
Somebody hit 20 feet left ofthe pin and this is what I think
is wrong in strokes gainedaverages, because they'll say,
OK, from 100 yards or 15 feetright.

(52:14):
So or do we know where Tigeraimed or where do we do we know
where those people were aimingon that shot?
Right, Because they're aimingmost of the time to a certain
spot on the green Right and thatis their shot.
So they nailed it within two tothree yards.
They're not 15 feet away fromtheir target.
The target is their createdtarget, not the pin yeah.

(52:35):
So that is the big difference,I think, is that these guys are
creating their target, not thepin yeah.
So that is the big difference,I think, is that these guys are
creating their target, not thepin.
So, golfers, go create your owntarget on the green.
Forget where the pin is Now.
You may want to say, okay, mytarget is dead center of this
green and I bet most golfers outthere today if they did that
are going to shoot better scorenext round guaranteed.
Yeah, like what the bull weeklyused to to say, the center of

(52:59):
the green never moves yeah, itsounds like I haven't heard that
one boo, but it sounds like aboo saying for sure yeah, and he
was one of the top guys ingreens and regulation yeah, oh
god, I love that swing thatstrong grip held it off extreme
shaft lean.
But hey, whatever works, manlove his swing.

(53:20):
He likes fishing more though, Ithink, don't he?

Speaker 3 (53:23):
yeah, so it's like kind of like byron nelson, right
after he earned enough to buyhis wrench.
That was it.
Golf was simply a means to anend, as it was for bruce let's
keep bruce what a great golfgame, man I mean the stuff that
we heard about him.
He really owned his golf swingand that's kind of like staying
true to your own dna.

(53:44):
Imagine if someone came to himsaying hey, you cannot have
hands over the top inside out.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah, I don't think we would have heard of uh, bruce
, let's keep no, and you, youwonder how many golfers have
been we don't know of because ofstuff like that?
and you know I I say I've lookedback at my career over 10, 15
years ago.
I'm glad I didn't get certainpeople oh, I wasn't good enough
then to know to leave.
I wasn't good enough then.
And I think that's anotherthing launch monitors changed

(54:11):
and stuff is.
You know not you know, but Ithink I may have made changes
that I should have.
Who knows who knows right.
But you look at the, are yougoing to change Jim Furyk?
I mean if you just saw thatswing, somebody may go, oh, whoa
, I mean elbow behind him at P6.
I mean there's a lot of thingsin there.
You'd go, wow, don't do that.
But one of the best ballstrikers ever.

Speaker 3 (54:34):
Yeah, I guess what they see right Matchups, compens
, compensations and what haveyou, it's all uh.
And that we bought, it's allmatchups.
We're always matching these up,aren't we?
And it also depends, right, if,if jim furick came to us at
maybe 10 years old, you figurethat there's a runway to
optimize his move.
But if he came to us at collegeand when he was in college and

(54:57):
you try to change that, yeah,dansky, like Mike, mike Fury I
think Mike Fury was telling thestory about how he took Jim Fury
to to this particular college.
The college coach says hey,you're in, man, I can't wait to
get my hands on that sink.
Mike says we are out.
True story, wow, hands on thatsink mike says we are out true

(55:20):
story wow, jesse, and I alwaystalk about that.
Mike furick should be in the pgahall of fame I would definitely
agree, for sure definitelyagree.
So, uh, in closing, jesse, doyou have any questions for our
esteemed guest?
In closing, jesse, do you have?

Speaker 1 (55:37):
any questions for our esteemed guest.
No, you all have nailed it.
No, I really appreciate theinsight and you know me as an
overall student of the game.
I can appreciate where you guysreally do the golfing populace
a big service, helping populacea big service by demystifying

(56:09):
some things, which is great andjust really to help us all
understand what's possible, andthat's a big one.
That's a big one because I knowI speak for a lot of fellow
golf students, lifetime seekers,and that where sometimes we get
so down we don't think thatthere's a way out, and so it's
really great to have qualityinstructors out there to help us

(56:30):
find our own way.
Really Thanks, jesse, cheers toyou.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
Well, thank you To me that's so huge.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Jesse, you said that because I feel like we do have a
huge duty to do a good job atcoaches and because of that,
because there's so many peoplethat quit because of bad
coaching, how often do we readin blogs that, oh, I get way,
don't go to this or don't go getcoaching, you're going to get
way worse, and it's just likethat doesn't have to be the case
.
You shouldn't get way worse.
So it's like there is a big, wehave a big job to do to keep

(57:01):
golfers involved, to get golfersbetter and it it is
disheartening and I, we bothknow it that there are golfers
out there like you said.
I get disheartened that andhopefully we this, this coaching
and everything can continue ona mass to get better.
Like there's no problem withstudents.
I think only about 3% ofstudents take coaching, get
coaching or something.
So more people would beinvolved in golf.

(57:23):
The better we get as coaches,the more coaches get better.
Like it can just explode andget better.
So we demystify this that itdoesn't have to be this secret
thing out there.
What is this big secret that wehold or whatever, and and make
it down into a better learninglevel so we'd be more coaches.
So it's hopefully the future iscontinues on this route and we
can get better.

(57:44):
So there aren't any of thosefeelings someday, or less of
those feelings, cause that'sthat's why I coach because of
the fallacies and things thatI've heard growing up and one of
the one of the main reasons allthose fallacies and stuff I
heard growing up, they're justlike these are stuff I heard
growing up.
They're just like this is crazyand you still hear it today.
I mean it's a bad shot.
And they lift, they pick theirhead up or you know they're slow
down.
Your swing, jane, when she'sswinging 65 or 65 miles per hour

(58:04):
.
So it's like they're still outthere and you know we got to
somehow do a better job ofbreaking them down.
That's your job, justin.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
And yours too.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
And the fallacy world and the fallacies out there.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
But yeah, no thanks, speed up Mrs McDonald's sing.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
Yeah, don't slow down , don't slow enough, we don't
need slower.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
Thank you so much for your time, Eric.
Really appreciate you having onthe podcast.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
We appreciate you, eric.
Thank you, thank you guys.
Where can our listeners?

Speaker 3 (58:39):
find out more about you and the services you offer.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Yeah, just go to ejsgolfcom.
I have all my links there to,you know, instagram and YouTube
and everything there.
So just ejs, as in Sam golfcom.

Speaker 3 (58:55):
Wonderful.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Sounds great wonderful sounds great, thank
you guys appreciate you.