David Novo-Lake (De Novo Research)

Episode Transcript
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Preroll (00:00):
Welcome to Flowstars candid conversations between
doctor Peter O'Toole and the bighitters of flow cytometry
brought to you by BeckmanCoulter at Bite Size Bio.

Peter O'Toole (00:10):
Today on Flowstars, I'm joined by Dave
Lobo, and he talks about hishumble origins of his flow
cytometry software company. Howinspiring it was to work with
the one and only Howard Shapiro,and cooking chicken tikka
masala. All this and more comingup in this episode. Hi. I'm
Peter O'Toole from University ofYork, and welcome to Flowstars.

(00:33):
And today, I'm joined by DavidDave Novo. God, I could have
nearly called you David. D o

David Novo-Lake (00:38):
e. Sorry.

I I I would say, usually, I'd introduce you guys
to where they're from. But, Deb,you're retired.

I'm retired. Semi retired, yeah. Mhmm.

At this moment. Are you busier now you retired
than before you retired?

Maybe no. Maybe just as busy. But I am doing
things that are a little maybemore interesting to me at the
moment with with it, with all ofthat.

I'm sure your company would love to have heard
you just say that now it's moreinteresting. Maybe it's either
way from it. So I guess, maybemaybe to introduce you to the
audience a bit more. I guessyou're, certainly from my
perspective, most famous forsoftware analysis. Would you say
that's fair?

Well, considering I'm not really known
for anything else at all in theworld, then then that probably
is my, by far most well knownthing. My my opera singing
leaves a lot to be desired, so.So you opera sing? Only in the
shower.

Well, we'll get a rendition later. Everyone can
listen. Dave, sing some opera.So I said, okay. So we know what
you're famous for.
And with FCS Express, thesoftware side, bringing it all
through. I'm gonna startslightly different to the
others. What was the first jobyou ever wanted to do? So when
you were eight, nine, 10 yearsof age,

what was the first thing you ever imagined
being when you grew up? I mean,I don't My memory doesn't go
back that far. I have a terriblememory for the most part. The
one thing though that I doremember being fascinated by
probably the earliest was thestock market, and I was maybe
like 12 or 11 or something. Andmy grandfather was always

(02:32):
checking his CDs and checking,he was a very, looking back I
realized he was a veryconservative investor and he was
always checking his interestrates and CDs, but he also had
some stocks and at that point,like you couldn't find anything
online, you didn't do anything,so he not far from his where he

(02:52):
lived was a stockbroker, and wewould go in once a week to the
stockbroker's office, this likesatellite office, and there'd be
like stocks go stock tickergoing along, and it was all very
exciting.
And that's the one thing Iremember first is being like,
oh, this, and then I learned,you know, the people there
taught me about what's anoption, and what's a stock, and

(03:15):
what's a put, and what's a call,and it seemed like such a
fascinating field. And Iremember when I was like 13 or
so, I put $800 of my own moneyinto Commodore sixty four,
Commodore stock. Yeah. AndCommodore subsequently went
bankrupt about a year later, andI lost my $800, and that was my

(03:40):
final a long pause in myinvesting after after that. But
I do remember thinking that thatwould be a really awesome
career.
Right.

I think you integrated it again. You now
have some stocks and shares now.

Yes. Now I do have. I I've sort of dipped back
into it again.

If that was what you saw at that point, you got
burned to that point, so whendid you what what was your next
option going forward? What doyou think? Oh, I'm not gonna be
a stockbroker now. I'm going todo something else. What was the
next?

Oh, I mean, I'm not one of those people who had
and growing older, realizethere's not many people who
actually did have this linearvision and then accomplished
their vision and everything wenton. I was just a teenager who

(04:35):
whatever sorta came up, youknow, I didn't really think too
much about my future or whateverat that at that time, and it
really was many, you know, notuntil my, you know, early
twenties where I startedthinking about, you know, what I
wanted to do. I did always lovescience during high school, and

(04:55):
I did always think that it wouldbe sort of as a vague thing cool
to be a scientist, whatever thatmeant. Yeah. So that did kinda
guide an overarching thing, butI didn't have anything really
specific.

So what was your first degree in?

My first degree was in biology and pharmacology
from McMaster University inCanada, in Hamilton. And again,
you know, talking about, youknow, sort of non linear, when I
I I never even, know, McMaster'snot a super famous school or
anything even within Canada,although it's it's known. But it

(05:33):
just had the distinction ofbeing far enough away from home
that my parents couldn't visiteasily and close enough that I
could go home without muchtrouble. It's about an hour and
a half drive from Toronto whereI grew up and where my parents
lived. So, you know, that's whyI kinda ended up up there
instead of anywhere else.

So so so from your undergraduate, so you
still, I I guess like me,undergraduate, graduating,
probably still didn't know whatto do.

Yeah. I mean, that's it it was all very
random. My the undergraduateprogram that I did was a co op
program, and so I did it, and I,you know, did some of the co op
work terms, is basically, it wasfive years instead of four, but

(06:26):
about at the end of it you hadworked for a year and a half in
various jobs. And you know,again, I sort of knew that I
wanted to I I did think after myundergrad I was gonna go on and
do postgraduate studies, but notreally where or why or how. But
that's when I sort of fell intoflow cytometry kinda randomly.

(06:49):
And through a whole series ofvery lucky chances ended up at
UCLA.

And how was that move as a Canadian going to
UCLA?

Oh, it was wonderful. I loved UCLA. As
somebody who grew up with sixmonths of winter, I mean, you
cannot cannot be. I mean, UCLAis a great school and whatnot,
of course. But, you know, to behonest, the reason that I even
applied there so Howard I wasworking with Howard Shapiro at

(07:24):
the time, and I applied to abunch of places, including
Purdue and whatever, that hadwell known flow cytometry
programs.
But it actually worked out thatif you applied to UCLA, the
application was $25. And if theywanted you potentially to be
part of the program, they wouldfly you out to LA for a weekend.

(07:47):
And it was February in Boston,and I hadn't seen Sun for like
three weeks, and I'd alreadywritten all these applications.
So I was like, alright. Like, Ichanged the name from Purdue to
UCLA on the application letterat the time, and sent it in.
And fortunately, they asked meto come by, and it was a
beautiful weekend in Los Angelesthat weekend. And again, it was

(08:12):
February, and I'm like, well, ifI have to go somewhere for, you
know, four years, there's WestLafayette, Indiana at Purdue,
and there's Los Angeles. And soI said, alright, UCLA's a pretty
good school, and ended up there.So again, I wish I could say it
was because of a concertedevaluation of the intellectual

(08:35):
rigor at the variousuniversities, but it really was
because Los Angeles has muchbetter weather.

Brilliant. Where do you live now?

Now I still live in Los Angeles. So you're
still enjoying the weather? I'mstill enjoying the weather.

Do you not miss the snow?

We get, you know, there's easy enough here
to find snow. There's mountainsare an hour and a half away, and
really big mountains likeMammoth, like world class skiing
is like five hours away, and Igo visit my parents. So I get my
two, three weeks of snow a year,and that's more than enough.
These days actually, even when Ivisit my parents, I think
because of global warming, Idon't even get snow a lot of the

(09:17):
time anymore anyway.

Yeah. What were your what was your parents take
when you said, you know, youwere only an hour and a half
away. It's long enough, farenough away to start with, but
then you well, that's quite abig distance. How were they
then?

I imagine they were would have preferred me to
be closer to home, but Itraveled a lot before then, and
I think that they were used tome sort of running off, and they
like to travel as well, soeverybody visited. It wasn't a
big, a too big drama.

I'd usually ask who your inspirations are, but
you've already mentioned thatyou were you were working with
Howard Shapiro. I'd imagine he'sone of your biggest influences?

Yeah. I mean, scientifically, absolutely. He's
sort of a combination of a, youknow, scientific so I worked
with him, for him for about ayear almost at his lab in
Boston. And, you know, sayinghis lab is conjures up maybe

(10:19):
something grander than what itwas. It it was him and a
wonderful woman named NancyPerlmutter, who I'm still
friends with to this day, and itwas the three of us, and that
was his lab.
So, you know, we saw each otherevery day in this small
environment. You know, we we hada lot in common. I mean, Howard

(10:42):
was Jewish, Nancy's Jewish, I'mJewish, so it was this very, so
Howard became kind of like asurrogate father slash
grandfather figure, and I wasinvited to his house for Jewish
holidays and whatever, and itbecame kind of like, you know,
definitely close much closerthan an employee. I wouldn't say

(11:03):
like a son. That's probably abit much.
But, you know, let's say anephew, you know, maybe is is
what it turned out to be like.So he was a mentor in many ways.

Tick tock, I I unfortunately, obviously, I
never got to record with Howardhimself. So it would be good
just to reflect a little bit.How much guitar playing did you
have to listen to?

You know, in the office, it was more or less
strictly band. So I didn't haveto to listen to too much on a
day to day basis, but definitelywherever we went, you know, he
was constantly in demand and soI did hear live renditions of

(11:48):
his songs a lot. He wasrecording his his little album.
His son Peter helped him recorda CD shortly around the time
where I started. So that was Iwas hearing a little bit of
practicing and various editingof the of the songs then over
and over for the first coupleweeks, but that that was about

(12:10):
it.

That's cool. It was really nice to hear that he
was he was like a father figure.Grandfather, father, grandfather
figure. It's quite nice to hearjust, you know, how Warren was
welcoming, and and how how thelab wasn't a massive lab.

No, and it wasn't. You know, towards the I
think before I came, Howard didHe had written all his books,
obviously, and he did a lot moreof his own research. By the time
I came, he was doing a lot ofcontract work for, you know,

(12:48):
people would come to him onoccasion with very obscure
questions about what's the bestway to do this and what's the
best way to do that, and hewould sort of set up a flow
cytometer and show some proof ofprinciple that he thought, and
then, you know, then they wouldsort of move on. So he did a
lot. He helped a lot of people.
He wasn't really doing too muchof his own research at the time.

Actually, one of his passions was obviously to
support ACE monitoring in Africaand low middle income countries.
Do you think that's alsoinfluenced you? Because you
obviously got you're involved inthe open an an open source
project to yourself, aren't

Yeah. That was a Howard's passion towards the
end was to basically use supercheap microscopes as much as
possible to do some kind of lowresolution cytometry for
monitoring various diseases. Itwas interesting to me that, you

(13:53):
know, this was like a sort often year more or less
unsuccessful effort of his totry and get large manufacturers
to buy into this vision. I'veheard various reasons why it

(14:13):
didn't happen that I'm not gonnaget into.

No, no, no.

You know, that's not But the one thing
that I did see, what'sinteresting is that I did learn
that you can't really Howardnever Howard at this point was
older. He was not about to starton a major venture on his own.
But I did realize that if you goand rely on other people and
large organizations, it's like apipe dream sometimes where, yes,

(14:41):
they have infinite resources andso much money and so much
talent, but, you know, in orderto justify moving the giant
monster there, you need to havea large incentive and it's a
very very difficult route totake. And if you wanna do
something, you gotta do it onyour own and get things at least

(15:02):
to a certain point where you'vegot some momentum and then often
maybe a bunch of people willjump on the bandwagon after
you've gotten to that point. Andso talking about the cytometry,
we are I've a group that'strying to build and design open
source flow cytometer for use,you know, other things, people

(15:25):
in the third world who aredeveloping countries who could
build it at lower cost.
And as a shameless plug, ifanybody wants to get involved in
that, we can use as much help asas we can at
opencytometryhardware.org. But Ido I think it's up to us to take
it to a certain point, not tojust keep going to the
manufacturers and trying topitch the idea, but we need to

(15:47):
build it, we need to make ithappen, and then once it's there
and we've shown that it's usefulfor various things, then we can
talk to other people tohopefully get, you know, more
wide spread adoption or or makeit available to more people in
in in more different ways.

Yeah. No. I I I think it's the right way to go
about it. I if you it's notcompeting with the companies. So
competition or anything, but atthe same time, they're they're
commercial companies.
They they do have a remit. Youknow, they are charged with
certain tasks. As I guess in theacademic world, we're grant
funded to do certain researchprojects, not to then use that

(16:25):
funding to do a lot of otherthings with. That's probably not
so dissimilar. But, you know, II think where there's a
potential success story, that'swhen they will come in, I think.
Because they want to beassociated with that success.
And they can see they won't beburning money, but they'll get
something deliverable positiveout of it. So I I think he's got

(16:45):
a good shout. And I think theopen source project itself, I
think is the right time. I Ithink so I think your timing is
good.
I think Howard was probably abit premature in the way that
people are open minded to todifferent approaches. Because
we're so used to off the shelfproducts with good support that,

(17:07):
you know, an open source projectneeds you need to be a bit more
geeky. But I think with thethree d printers now, with
software, the way it's driving,it's now not super geeky. Yeah.
It's been in the possibilitiesof a hobbyist or to someone
who's got a PhD student who juststarted their PhD can probably
put this together, and thatmakes a big difference.
I don't think that was the caseeven ten years ago.

No. Absolutely not. I mean, Howard was making
his own preamplifiers by hand.You know, now you can upload a
spec to China and and the twoweeks later you have a board for
for $12 that they printed justfor you, and he was really, you
know, you were shopping for theparts and you were scrounging

(17:49):
for everything and he built alot of, you know, if you needed
anything custom, everything wasvery limited. It's a thousand
times easier today and that'sour vision is that we can have
like this you know, you you cando this today, like come up with
an IKEA parts list and say,here's the IKEA parts list, and
then with instructions andvideos, show how to assemble the

(18:12):
IKEA parts list, and youliterally don't even have to
know how an op amp works.
Like, you you have to doideally, you know how to to
stick plug one cable intoanother cable and plug the thing
into the wall and just assemblethe parts. And, you know, of
course you will have to align ityourself and you will learn
really all the little bit of thenuts and bolts, but any person

(18:35):
who knows how to operate ascrewdriver should be able to
use it, I build it, I hope.

I think the the other part of this, and I'd to
know how far you've got alongwith the project at the moment.
In the microscopy world, you cannow buy three d printed
microscopes in flat. Oh, yeah.But just three d with a little
Raspberry Pi. Yeah.
Running it with a lens, camera,lens on it. The lens is the most

(19:01):
expensive part, I think, of thewhole Yeah. Yeah. Microscope. So
is it is it a similar ethos toactually Yeah.
You gotta assume in a lot of lowmiddle income countries, they
may not have easy access tothree d printers either. But in
this case, it's quite cheap.Just like you said, the IKEA, we
can just go to the themicroscope IKEA to and actually

(19:24):
sort of order the printed sheetsto put together. Yeah. Mean, I
think Open flexure certainlyworks that way.
And we've got a couple ofOpenFlexures. We put in some
OpenFlexures ourselves intodifferent low, middle income
countries at the moment to seehow we can maximize them because
they're still not perfect. Mhmm.

But they're good. Yeah. The open source
movement has done well. There'sI mean, don't remember the names
of them off the top of my headbecause I don't use them. But
when researching this, I sawthat there's at least four or
five there's like an open lightsheet microscopy project.
I mean, there it's amazing.Cytometry is a little flow
cytometry is a little moredifficult because the

(20:06):
electronics component, I mean,we have like, you know, ten
microseconds to acquire pulsefrom a cell and we're trying to
get, you know, many thousands ofpulses every second. And so the
the data acquisitionrequirements and component
requirements a little morestringent. You're not gonna be
able to just three d print awhole flow cytometer. But you

(20:29):
will be able to three d printmany of the components.
The idea is is that we'llprovide, you know and even
Thorlabs and most of thesepeople, for every single part
that they have, they have theCAD drawings for that part. You
can just download and print thatexact part. Of course, it won't
be to the specifications and thequality of the machine Thorlabs
piece, but often you don't needthat. So we hope to have all the

(20:53):
parts list up there and then youcan get the three d printed
versions and we may or may notneed custom three d printed
version components and we'llfigure out how to distribute
those. So the idea is to make itas cheap as possible but
actually really functional.
You know, we're sort ofenvisioning making two models.
One for teaching purposes forcourses that's like as cheap as

(21:17):
possible but still lets peopleassemble a fully functioning
site How cheap is cheap? That wedon't know yet. What's your
target? Well, mean, so SuwadDervish made a machine that's
probably under a hundred dollarsfor teaching purposes.

It is

not including some of the maybe maybe not
including one of the PMTs, buthe uses APDs and and detectors.
It's a beautiful piece. We sortof have competing balances
because if you make a supercheap machine, super super
cheap, you can't reuse any of itfor the research quality

(21:56):
instrument. And we don't haveenough resources and people
volunteering to build 25different instruments that are
each completely independent. Sowe're trying to strike a balance
between the parts that aredifficult to be able to reuse
those in both the teaching andthe research Makes But that'll
increase the price, obviously,of the teaching instrument

(22:17):
compared to what it could be ifwe solely designed a teaching
one.
So, you know, I'm hoping for,you know, under $23,000 in parts
to make the teaching instrument,and, you know, maybe even
cheaper. And then for, you know,under $10,000 in parts to be
able to make the researchinstrument. But we're still sort

(22:39):
of looking around and seeing,you know, by research
instrument, we're hoping for asix to eight color, you know,
thing, one or two lasers, likenothing super fancy for the
first step. But I don't know ifwe'll we'll push comes to shove,
we'll see if that can actuallyhappen.

If you were successful, would you say that
would be your greatestachievement, or would you still
go back to your software andyour your baby essentially with
FCS Express?

I mean, I guess it just depends how many people
uptake the cytometer. I mean, ifit turns out that, you know, by
the time I move on, there arethousands of installations of
the open source cytometer. Andand the open source cytometer,
to be fair, to be clear, it'snot just me. There there are and
are going to be a lot morepeople involved in it. But but

(23:35):
yeah, if it's if it really makesan impact in other people being
significant numbers of peoplebeing able to do more science
and being able to spreadcytometry around at a you know,
teach about it and and whatever,you know, my greatest
achievement, I don't know, butI'd be very proud of it,
certainly.

You seem Yeah. You seem very relaxed about it.
So now we're gonna take you backin time to when you started your
own business.

Mhmm.

Now I'd imagine right now you wouldn't quite be
so calm and you'd be almostshouting at me with excitement
and enthusiasm because a, youwere obviously younger it's
super edgy because you've a lotto lose. So, what was a, how did
you have the guts to step outand start your own business? And

(24:23):
what inspired you to do it? Andwhat what were you worried
about?

I'll get to all three. Sure. So it's not as
exciting as as today where, youknow, people go and they start
their thing and they take theirwhole bank account out and then
they get $10,000,000 and they'vegot two years to spend it and
things weren't that crazy when Istarted. When I started writing

(24:52):
the software, I was working forHoward, and it was a very
pragmatic thing. The first paperthat Howard and I published
together, which actually is todate the paper I'm most proud
of, even in spite of all the fewPhD papers that I published, was
a paper that required us to do aratio metric analysis of the

(25:17):
dies we were using.
And at that time, there wasWinMDI, which was a software we
used all the time written by JoeTrotter. It was a free software.
And there was Winlist, we'rereally, at the time was, and it
was an expensive software, Iremember correctly, it was 3 or

(25:38):
$4,000 at a time when 3 or$4,000 was a lot of money. And
Howard wasn't gonna buy that todo the analysis. And so we
needed something to do thisratio metric analysis of flow
data.
And I was living in Boston andand like I mentioned, it was me

(25:58):
and Nancy. And when I moved toBoston, all I knew of Howard was
his book. I'd never met himbefore, and it said that he was
affiliated with Harvard, And soI imagined his lab, of course I
don't know anything about Bostonand all I had was an address,
but I imagined, oh, that's onthe Harvard campus and Howard

(26:21):
has a lab at Harvard and there'sgonna be all these Harvard
students and whatever. Howard'slab was not on Harvard campus.
It was a good twenty minute walkaway.
And so I basically knew nobodyin Boston and I was there for
like about a year and wasworking a lot. And so basically
had a lot of spare time where Ididn't know anybody and spent

(26:42):
time writing this tool to makethese ratio metric parameters
and then I would want it to plotthe ratio metric parameters and
then I wanted to gate the ratiometric parameters and then I,
you know, so it slowly evolvedand I worked on this, you know,
sort of in my spare time there,which I had a lot of because I
didn't have any sort of life.And when I was done at Howard's

(27:07):
lab, I realized that I almosthad something that was as fully
functional as WinMDI. And so Ihad the summer before I started
my PhD in February or 02/2001,and so I worked very hard that

(27:30):
summer to sort of polish off asmuch as I could. And concomitant
with starting my PhD, I sent anemail to the Purdue mailing list
and made a crappy little websiteabout that this software was
available, and if you wanted toget it, could download a copy of

(27:51):
the software.
So I actually it was actually avery low stress situation for me
because I was doing my PhD and Iwas starting my I had a salary
as a PhD, and I was doing itvery much as a part time thing
to get your money and extramoney above and beyond. So were
you charging for the downloads?I was charging for the software,

(28:12):
yeah, if you purchased it. Afterthirty days, it was a whopping
$99 at that time for versionone. Paul Robinson was actually,
I think, customer number three,and I think he actually never
installed nor used the softwarefor about twenty years until
many versions later.
He just did it to support somepoor putts who was trying to

(28:35):
sell flow software on theInternet, and and and I
appreciate him for that to thisday. And basically, over I just
did it really part time. Therewas no stress. If I made $5,000,
that means I could go to thatmany more pubs or bars in LA on
top of my whopping grad schoolsalary. And if I didn't make

(28:57):
anything, I didn't makeanything.
There was really no expenses. Mymom was a bookkeeper and she did
all the books and everything forthe first few years from Canada
while I was doing my PhD. But itbecame, you know, somewhat
successful, and people wereusing it, and people were buying

(29:17):
it, and it enabled me to travelto conferences. My PhD
supervisor was veryunderstanding of me taking time
off a couple times a year to goto flow conferences and whatnot,
and I did, I went to Citeaux andanything that was sort of close
by Los Angeles I went to, andhad a little booth and did my
thing. And it sort of took off,at least enough that by the end

(29:42):
of my PhD, I sort of had achoice of do I wanna continue on
in academia, or do I wanna givethis thing a try full time, and
decided to to give it a try fulltime.

So you went well, I suppose, so you went straight
off. You had I guess you werealready getting some income, but
Yes. You're worried that thepeople who are gonna buy it have
bought it. So where's your moneygonna come from? Is it not good?
Yeah. Are you not worried aboutthat?

That was always that's always the nature of a
business, you know, where you'regonna get more customers and,
you know, you sort of try tomake a new version and get
customers to upgrade to the newversion. My major worry was that
I really did have a worry thatif this thing flopped, because
it's, you know, a big jump to gofrom making an extra $40,000 a

(30:35):
year that I could live on as asingle person, you know, even
without my extra PhD salary, butI could, you know, live with 23
roommates and eat ramen andsurvive on that. But like if it
didn't really take off andeventually one day be able to
support a better lifestyle, youknow, it's kinda throwing my

(30:56):
academic career in the toiletbecause you know once you've
been gone from academia forhowever many years, probably not
that many, you're never gonnaget hired back as a postdoc when
you you know, oh I finished myPhD six years ago and my
business flopped, will you hireme as a postdoc? I knew that
wasn't gonna happen. So thatpart was a little bit nerve

(31:17):
wracking certainly and whatwould I do in that event then?
And, you know, at the end of theday, I spoke to a bunch of
people including my parents, Iremember, and they were just
like, you'll figure it out.Like, something's gonna happen.
And and you just sort of have tohave faith.

That I'd say, obviously, it worked out well.
Mhmm. Were there any difficulttimes when actually it wasn't
going so well, and you'rethinking, oh, no. I I you know,
you maybe got a staff. What werethose dark moments of thinking,
this is all gonna collapsearound me?
Did you have one of thosemoments? Any of those moments?

There was in in this in the first week, I got we
gotten to the point where wehired three people working for
me, and we've gotten to thepoint where things were I
wouldn't say it was ever like,oh, I couldn't pay the next
paycheck, but we didn't seereally any way we had sort of

(32:24):
stagnated and as trying as hardas we must might, we didn't see
a a big path forward. And thatwas a little bit, you know, oh,
what are we gonna do? And and wewere just basically breaking
even given all the salaries andeverything. But fortunately,

(32:45):
that didn't last for very long.I was really really lucky.
We were at a ASH meeting in SanDiego in December, and I don't
even remember the year, I'd haveto look it up. And a gentleman
by the name of Ken Bloom, whowas the chief medical officer at
US labs at the time, basicallycame over and said, hey, we're

(33:09):
doing flow cytometry, you know,basically clinical flow. Doctors
in the hospitals send us forleukemia lymphoma. This is the
very beginning of sort ofoutsourcing leukemia lymphoma
analysis to third party flowlabs that that is now very
common here in The US. And it'slike it's incredibly
inefficient.
We're doing analysis in Excel.We're taking it from this from

(33:32):
like I think they were using afax scan at the time. So taking
it from CellQuest and we'reexporting it to Excel and we're
trying to create reports andfrom Excel we paste it into Word
and we it's incrediblyinefficient and I see that your
software has a whole reportingcapability and if you just add
these you know three featureswe'll be able to implement it.

(33:56):
And so they actually paid todevelop the three features that
they needed which had to do withreporting, extra reporting
features they needed, and theypaid well for it, and that saved
us a lifeline, and then theybought a license to the
software. And then after thateverything was really great

(34:17):
because the clinical, otherclinical labs saw how it was
really a quantum leap inefficiency and quality in terms
of what clinical labs weredoing.
And we were able to really tapinto that clinical market in The
US at least. And eventually gotregistered as a medical device

(34:39):
with the FDA which further madethat thing. And so we had a very
huge presence in the clinicalflow market, and from then on I
was never really worried we weregonna go bankrupt or there was
never really a stress.

How many staff did you grow to?

By the time we sold the company a couple years
ago, it was about 25 people. Sonot huge, but certainly enough
to keep me busy. And talkingabout what's more interesting,
it wasn't it wasn't when we soldthat, you know, the flow
cytometry and the date the dataanalysis part was still really
great and the softwaredevelopment part was really
great. But there's just so muchb s that goes along with running

(35:24):
even a 25 person company thattook like 75% of my time. That
was completely uninteresting andeverything from you know taxes
to HR, just administration, tonsof administration, your website
is falling apart, your thisneeds to be upgraded, the virus

(35:46):
scanners aren't working, thethis and you know we never,
we're not big enough that wecould have a dedicated IT person
and a dedicated full timeaccountant and a dedicated this
and a dedicated that.
So I ended up having, you know,5% of my time involved in a lot
of different stuff that wasn'tsuper interesting, really.

But, yeah, I I just working through this. So
you'll be Would you clad toyourself as retired now? Sort of
I mean not

based on my amount of free time, certainly
not.

But I've got to ask, how young are you? See, not
even how old are you. How youngare

you? So I'm in I'm 50, 50 one right

now. And now into just following your hobbies,
your passions in the world.

Yeah. So fortunately for me, my passion
sort of dovetail a lot with whatI was doing. So I'm still
working for currently for thecompany that purchased FCS
Express. So I'm still involvedwith that and helping them out
on a sort of consulting basisand not consulting, but, like,
special projects and questionsthat they have, and I'm still

(37:03):
continuing to do some work forthem on a regular basis. But
then in my spare time, one thingI definitely am devoting more
time to is my health.
I have too many friends who arestarting, you know, as you get
into your fifties, everybodystarts developing odd diseases

(37:23):
and high blood pressure and thisand that. So one of the things
I'm definitely focusing on ismaking sure that I have time to
work out and and exercise and doall the things that I didn't do
for the thirty years I wasrunning the company. I'll take

a look. What's your exercising regime? What are
you doing to keep it?

Oh, quite a bit. So I have bad knees, so it
sort of takes takes a lot ofthings off the table, but I bike
a few times a week, and I swim,and do a class at the local
fitness place calledOrangetheory, know, sort of a
cardio kind of thing. So I'mtrying to keep at least a few

(38:04):
hours a week, just keep in shapeand keep all those old age
diseases under control.

See, it's interesting. So you've the bad
knees. Always hear people intheir fifties who have exercised
a lot that blame their exerciseon their bad knees. Here you are
having not done much exerciseand got bad knees. I think it is
just whichever.
And actually, have you triedbuilding knee strength up so you
can do more?

So on top of my bad knees, actually tore the
meniscus in my knee exercising ayear ago, so I've just given up
on my knees. But everythingelse, so I do do a lot of
biking, is, you know, sort ofstrengthens the rest and
supposedly will help stabilizeall of that. But you know, what

(38:52):
can you do? What are the helpyou do? So I do aside so so one
of my hobbies now is both my joband my hobby is that I have I
run a small research team, meand a couple people, and we
actually do research.
And so I love it. It's you know,there's a lot of ideas came up

(39:18):
over the last twenty years or soabout different ways of doing
things that you can never reallypursue because I had a business
to run and I didn't really haveenough time nor resources to pay
somebody to just be, do researchwith no economic But fortunately

(39:38):
now I'm in a position where Ican do that. So that's a hobby
actually, so I do research a fewhours a day, maybe half the day
is usually doing differentprojects. I try to spend more
time doing it, but witheverything else that's involved,
it ends up being four or fivehours. So that's kind of a
hobby.

(40:00):
Again, combines what I reallylove with not really much
stress, although I would like toget some papers out eventually,
which again, when you have nostress, it's the stress of of
having to publish or perishactually probably is useful for
getting things out the door. I Ihave a tendency to try to keep
looking and making it moreperfect and more perfect and

(40:21):
more perfect and answer everyquestion, and I feel like
sometimes you

just Yeah. But that's not good. You're better
to do a part a and part b andcome out with Yeah. And then
follow it up with more, and youknow that.

That's what I need advice from more academics
to to to get tell me when tokick the thing out the door and
and it's good enough, you know?And it's funny because in my job
and in in the company, there wasalways, you know, nothing was
ever perfect. You're alwaysmaking decisions about when is
it good enough to release, whenis the documentation good

(40:52):
enough, when is the website goodenough, because you really there
was really the longer youdawdled, there was a real
economic penalty to it. And withthis with these projects, you
know, I could use some maybeeconomic penalty a little bit
somehow.

I've I've got an interesting question. So
throughout the time with FCSExpress, I guess your main
competitors were FlowJo.Correct. How competitive did you
feel them as competitors, orwere you just you just getting
on with your own thing, or didyou feel that as competition?
You know, what were youremotions about that?
I I know what I'd be like. I'dI'd be constantly looking. I in
a friendly way, if that makessense. But

We definitely always kept an eye on what Flo
Jo was doing. At the beginning,actually, Adam Treister and I,
who was the founder of Flo Joalong with Mario Roterer, but
Adam was sort of working on itfull time. We were great
friends. At the beginning, FloJo was only on and I still like

(41:52):
Adam and think he's wonderful. Ihaven't seen him in a long time,
but but Flojo was really on theMac only and FCS Express was on
the PC.
And believe it or not in in theSaito in Montpellier, we
actually shared a booth togetherand we both saw our job as

(42:13):
trying to fight the entrenched,the CellQuest and get some of
these CellQuest users and othersto just switch to one of ours.
We didn't really, if you wantedto be a Mac, you were on a Mac,
if you wanted to be on PC, youwere on PC. And we had that site
in Montpellier, very fondmemories of it. We gave away
bottles of wine, and we had wineat the booth, and it was a great

(42:36):
was a great time. You know, onceFlojo came out with a PC
version, it put a damper on theKumbaya relationship that we had
and definitely became morecompetitors.
And you know, I will definitelysay towards the end it was
certainly frustrating. You know,again, we had a big clinical

(42:58):
market which we kinda had toourselves and that was very
allowed things to go stressfree. And on the research
market, we really wereconstantly butting our heads
against Flo Jo and and you knowone of the things that was
really challenging is you thinkthat scientists are working on
the cutting edge. They alwayswanna be new. They always wanna

(43:21):
be innovative.
They're like at the but you knowscientists are as stodgy as
anybody else and you try to takethe tools that they're used to
and give them something new, andit's out of their cold, dead
hands can you claw things awaysometimes. So eat I don't I
don't know if you've experiencedthat.

I was joking. We have both FCS Express and we
have FlowJo, because you can'tget FlowJo users to use FCS
Express.

Mhmm. You just it

just doesn't. They just

Yeah.

They they went to it.

And one of the things was is at the beginning,
it was because, oh, FlowJo hasthis feature, and we really use
this feature, and it has thatfeature. And over the years, we
narrowed down, like, we had waysthere were legitimate things
that that that Flo Jo could do.And and if you use those, there
was really no way of doing themin FCS Express. But over the

(44:22):
years, we winnowed those awayone by one by one. And at some
point I realized, okay, it hasno longer anything to do with
the lack or not lack of featuresin the software.
It's just scientists are asstodgy or stodgier than anybody
else. And it makes sense,everybody has stuff to do and
it's really time consuming tolearn a new software

(44:44):
potentially. And if you spentten years banging your head
against a certain wall and nowyou know how to make that wall
do exactly what you want, you'reperfectly happy with it. And so
you know, that was definitely achallenge towards the end of
trying to figure out what we cando to because really, Flo Jo

(45:05):
controls such a big part of themarket that if you wanna grow on
the research side, you've gottatake users away from Flo Jo.

I'm sure there'll be FCS express users that feel
exactly the same way the otherway. You're right, and that's
also to do with the instrumentsthat they use, or the
manufacturer's instruments theyuse, or a reagent company that
they swear by. I think somewould actually divorce their
partners rather than divorce getmove from what they're using.

No. No. Absolutely. And there's network
effects like, you know, we'vehad FCS Express users go to a
lab, and they're like, oh, thewhole lab uses FlowJo, and
nobody will talk to me. Youknow?
They're like, you know, like,they won't look at my data. They
won't, like, help me analyze it.They won't do anything. And so,
you know, Flo Jo, you know,started before us, and they were

(46:00):
working full time while I wasstill in grad school and got a
lot of and so they just had theyhad a big head start. And so by
the time I decided to go fulltime, and again at the beginning
it was just me and and acolleague full time, they had an
entrenched user base long beforewe got started.

(46:21):
So again, it was just difficult.

Well, York, we have both. I think the very
first one I had was actuallybesides Winlist and WinMDI using
those. I think the first I hadwas actually FCS Express for
ratio metric analysis. Oh,really? I'm pipelining batch
batch processing lots and lotsof data through.
So there you are. From rightback Oh, great. Actually
started, which FlowJo didn'thave a good option for at time.

(46:46):
But then we did get FlowJo aswell, and now we got both
parties working concurrently. Sowe talked about difficult times.
Would you say that time when youbefore you got that contract was
the most difficult time in yourcareer, or there'd been other
more challenging times for otherreasons?

No, that was the most difficult time. I mean,
it's always been a challengebalancing, you know, certainly
balancing family. Like, therenever really were economic
challenges. I mean, I nevertried to grow the company beyond
my means and and take largerisks and bring on 50 staff that
like, okay, we're gonna increaseour revenue 10 x so that I can

(47:25):
pay them. Like I only hiredpeople and did things that we
could actually afford to do.
And again, it's it's a differentfrom the VC model right now.
It's a very old mom and popmodel, you know, where the VC
model, that's not enough to grow15. Like all I needed to do was
feed my family and pay mymortgage. Like that's all I
really wanted to have. Right?

(47:47):
But that's not enough for a VCmodel these days and the VC
model you need to like gain 50 xlike every year or else you're
kicked to the curb. So there's alot even if your company is
doing exceptionally well, youknow, by any standard and
growing 15% a year, that's notenough and you're still under

(48:07):
stress in order to get that 50 xreturn, you know. Whereas for
me, like, we it was never at thepoint after that where I
couldn't

feed myself. Do you think that's so I'm just
reflecting for what you saidmuch earlier, and the way you
got burned when you did yourfirst stock market bit. Would
you say that's made you alsomore risk adverse and like to do
things conservatively andcarefully and within your means
rather than putting all yourmoney on a certain stock and

(48:37):
knowing that it could go flat?Do think that actually that was
actually a good lesson at thatpoint?

Yeah. I mean, that may have percolated through
in some way. My grandfatherowned multiple businesses and
liked to talk about them andwhatever, and he was a bit of a
role model for me in terms of,you know, what it's kind of like
what you want out a business andit's very personal. Right? Some

(49:03):
people wanna be billionaires.
And if you wanna be abillionaire, you can't do it
without, either beingexceptionally lucky and being in
the right place at the righttime times the power of
infinity, which happensoccasionally. Or you just have
to take huge risks. But if youraspiration is not to be a
billionaire, and your aspirationis just to have a comfortable

(49:27):
life and do somethinginteresting, and you know, then
you don't have to go take allthose risks and and you know, so
you sort of can define upfrontwhat your goals really are.

I I think you mentioned because family side
and that's important. You can'tIt's a very big risk to go for
all out because it would thenimpact your family as well. So
do you have children?

I have three children, yeah.

Does any any of them followed in your footsteps?
What are

they all doing? Well, so they're still a bit
young to be following in myfootsteps. I don't even think
that they know I think that theycould tell you that I do flow
cytometry, but they couldn'treally tell you what it is.

How old are

The oldest is 14 and the youngest is six.

Very

good. Little one there who's 11.

Now you need to go and ask your 16, 11, 40 year
old, what do you want to be whenyou grow up? And then they'll
remember it. When they're inthis position, what was the
first job that they wanted todo?

Yeah. Well, actually, my the middle son in
particular is very engineeringrelated. We do have a three d
printer at home, and he loves toprint up things. And so he's
actually, like, all excited whenwe get to the point in the open
source project where we're gonnaprint up parts and he wants to
help design them and whatever.So we may may get a little flow

(50:43):
cytometrist side of it somehow.

I'm gonna throw some quick fire questions at
you. Mhmm. Are you an early birdor night owl?

By tendency, a night owl, by necessity, and
having three kids, it's my jobto get them to school in the
morning, so I'm an early birdmost days.

PC or Mac? Oh, PC. Now, I was always confused,
wasn't Considering consideringwhat we've just been speaking
about is the most dumb questionI think you've ever asked in a
quick fire. McDonald's or BurgerKing?

They're both And you've got

three kids. You gotta go to one.

Yeah. I mean, McDonald's. It's gotta it's
gotta be McDonald's, I guess.

What what's your go to when you go to McDonald's?

I guess a Big Mac would be the the Okay. I
mean, you're really it's it'snot a preferred location,
believe me. That's for sure.

It's not that bad. Tea or coffee?

Sorry? Tea or coffee? Coffee. Chocolate or
cheese? Cheese.

Beer or wine?

Beer.

Okay.

Feel like I'm gonna come out there like, then
after you punch it all on thecomputer, you're gonna be like,
oh, 80% chance of being a felon,20 chance of being homeless
based on the

I can't say what I

was gonna say. We'll come

to it after we stop recording. If you were to
go out for dinner and someonewas to order, what would be your
favorite food to eat at?

Oh, I love Indian food. I really love
Indian food.

You must love coming to The UK, though.

I love coming to The UK, and in the last site,
was at Rachel Walker's place.

Yeah. Down at Baybraham. I'm doing a course
down there, I think, weren'tyou, with Rachel?

Yeah. Yep. And I went into Cambridge every
night to eat, even though wewere sort of out a little bit
where her where the Baybrahamis. I went into Cambridge every
day just to eat Indian food, andyeah, it was awesome.

Me flip that the other way. What would be the
worst food that could be servedin front of you? Yeah, you're an
invited speaker, they take youout somewhere, it's a set menu,
and what is the worst thing theycould put in front of you?

There's not much I won't eat. Know? If I had
to be stereotypical, a plate oflike roasted vegetables or
something like that, it wouldn'tbe bad, but be exceptionally
boring. Probably. But there's noreal style of food that I that I
don't like.

Okay. Do you prefer to eat in or eat out?

I love to cook. I do love What's signature dish?
I make a really mean chickentikka masala, to be honest.
Okay. As well as Cajun food,both because they're I I enjoy
that they're very complicated tomake, and I do feel like a

(54:00):
scientist, you're measuring out40 different spices and adding
them at different times andcooking them. It's not so
different from following aprotocol and an experiment at
that point.

Do you know what? I nailed a chicken cicapatia
recently. Oh, good. And it'sdefinitely not from recipe
because those spices vary in theflavor of them.

Yeah.

I'm over the batch and it's constant tasting
all the way through. But it'sthe first time I've actually got
it just right. So many timesit's, ah, it's okay. I'd rather
go to my local. Sure.
But no, I

So that's what I'm missing. So I actually spent
some time and there there aren'tany to take a proper Indian
cooking class. I need to likerent an Indian grandma from
somebody and because I knowthere's so much subtlety in
terms of like putting the spicesin the oil before you cook
exactly the right amount oftime, and the oil has to be the

(54:58):
right heat, and it brings outthe flavors, and But like,
that's hard to figure out onyour own is how to how to do
that.

Please. And still later on, might have to add some
more smoke pack paprika or somemore cumin or some more cinnamon
or some more coriander or somelike

Yeah. Now if there was a like three hour a
day, once a week Indian cookingclass somewhere in Los Angeles,
I would 100% take it for, youknow, whatever, six months and
and really learn. It's it'ssuper fun and the food is so
good. TV or book? It depends.

(55:39):
It depends. I love reading and Iread a lot.

What sort of genre? Sci

fi, fantasy is my Oh,

okay. Is my What about TV? What's your t what's
your TV sin? What what's a Godconfess

to you've never

confessed to.

Ultraviolent movies are like my I do love a
good action movie with, youknow, John Wick level of Okay.
Of destruction. And that is asecret pleasure because I have
to watch them when my wife's notaround because she can't stand
them. So it's like reallysomething I gotta do if she's
like gone away somewhere and Ican sneak in an hour. It's it's

No. It's a good action movie. I can go that's
not bad. So what was yourfavorite film?

I think The Shawshank Redemption is up there
as one that I really, reallyloved and

Okay. Georgetown Redemption's good. I asked this
all year long. What's yourfavorite Christmas film?

Oh, I don't have one. I never got into them.
Coming from a Jewish background,I never got into too much of the
Come

on. Die Hard, surely for you.

I'm not gonna get drawn into that debate.
Sure. That that has

to Okay. Star Wars or Star Trek?

I'll say Star Trek. I feel it's a little more
long lived. Okay. There's lotsof different versions.

Spectral or mixing or compensation?

Oh, don't get me started, Peter.

That's a quick answer. Quick

one. They're both one and the same.

That's what Mario said. Beg to differ still
subtly, because the additiverather than subtractive purpose.
Favorite color?

Green.

Again, not Fitsi, not GFP. Oh.

See, remember, I don't actually run
experiments, so all of thestuff's just data. The fact that
it came from a dye, a moleculeor not, that's a nice
coincidence, but

I know. You said at the very start that you like
copper music. What what is yourfavorite music? What is your
what do you listen to?

Oh, for real, my favorite music is probably
seventies funk, parliament, andand James Brown, and those sorts
of I mean, it dates me, I haveto say. I wish it was something
a little more modern, but, youknow, I still think when I'm
cooking and you've got someparliament going on really loud,

(58:35):
it's a it's a great day.

That's cool. Do you know what? I realized just
I've spent too much timechatting to you. I'm sorry. Very
quickly, besides Howard, haveyou had any other inspirations?
Who's inspired you in yourcareer or in your life?

You know, from a career point of view, you
know, again, although I don'trealize it overtly, but I think
just the example set by mygrandfather certainly as a, you
know, he was a very much like,just go out and do it. He also
retired at his low fifties,early fifties, after a string of

(59:15):
successful businesses inMontreal. And it never because
of him, it never really seemedscary to start a business. It's
just like that's what you do.You start a business.
Yeah. Like that's fine. It's notintimidating. It's not like if
he could do it and he's youknow, just my grandfather. So it
didn't seem very strange whichyou know sort of from a social

(59:37):
point of view always made meappreciate more about sort of
your culture and where you'refrom as opportunities that you
have.
And certainly if you don't havethose role models and you don't
even know, you know, everythingseems so intimidating and so
scary and so like But when youjust have these role models,

(01:00:00):
they're just normal people andthey're not like Uber geniuses
or Uber whatever, they're justyour grandfather. Missing that I
don't know where things are justmuch more difficult I think so.

Peter O'Toole (01:00:17):
My own dad started his own business. And
actually, if I think about itwhen I do my a levels, I
probably thought I'd end uprunning not his business,
although he probably wanted meto do that. Was definitely not
my cup of tea. But I probablythought I'd have a business, but
then when you get into science,that's a lot harder to find a
business to start up in science.So I think you've done really
well to find a niche and succeedat it.

David Novo-Lake (01:00:39):
Yeah. And I do the other thing that I think
definitely % influenced me is Idid a program in the Israeli
army when I was 18, and it was abasic training program where we
did, you know, basically basictraining in the Israeli army. It
was a program for foreigners tosort of see what that was like.
And while I'm not I'm very notnon military and not whatever,

(01:01:02):
but there was a certain attitudethere in the army that, you
know, you got a job to do.You're given and this is 'm I'm
sure universal to all armieseverywhere.
You're given a job, you're givena task, you're given a time
limit, and there's just noexcuses. There's no like, if you
have to load up the truck andthey give you four minutes to do
it, like, if you didn't do it infour minutes, you ran laps for

(01:01:25):
thirty minutes, you know, andthey didn't care, and nobody
cared. And that was, you know,when you're doing that for
months and months and you'regetting that attitude, that
really stuck with me throughoutuniversity and throughout my
life is that, you know, yougotta set yourself a goal and
you can make as many excuses asyou want, but at the end of the
day you didn't accomplish whatyou wanted to accomplish. And

(01:01:47):
that's all that matters at theend. And that's something that
really stuck with me, and Ithink is a big, changed my
attitude from the way I wasbefore certainly, and was
certainly a big help in my lifein terms of setting goals in
ways that I could achieve them.
Because if you set goals and youjust consistently don't achieve

(01:02:08):
them, what's the point? And thenon the corollary of like,
there's no excuses. Like you setyourself a goal, you just do
whatever you have to do to makeit happen. And that was I think
helpful in life and in business.So wasn't really a person, but
that was a big influence.

I've I've got two more very quick questions
because I think we're up to thehour already. If you could do
any job in the world for a dayor a week, just to try something
different, what job would it be?

Oh, an astronaut, for sure.

Okay. That that that's not not the first time
you've heard that, but not allthat common. And do you have any
regrets?

No. I don't have any regrets. I mean,
there's 10,000 things I couldhave done differently, and
potentially if I had done thosedifferently, my life could have
been better in 500 ways, butthey could have been worse. You
know, so I don't really believein regrets. I mean, I haven't

(01:03:07):
murdered anybody, so you know,probably regret that.
But you know, within the normalrealm of activities, I'm very
happy with the way things turnedout. I have a wonderful family,
a wonderful wife. I'm doing whatI love to do. And I always
loved, aside from theadministrative purpose crap that
went on, I always loved what Idid. It was never a chore to go

(01:03:27):
to work and deal and meet.
I got the opportunity to, youknow, because I was selling
stuff, I traveled around theworld and met almost every
single person who's been on theFlow Stars show over the years,
and it's such a wonderfulcommunity, and I met so many
nice people, and people were sosupportive and so friendly, and

(01:03:49):
I really have no regrets aboutthe, you know, nobody I had to
deal with was some MBA type thatI'm just trying to, you know,
schmooze money from. They're allreal people who I felt that I
was really helping them in theirscience, and they were all very
nice and very appreciative. Andto this day, I love going to
Saito in spite of the fact thatI have no real need to go. But

(01:04:13):
just to see all the people andto interact with them, it's a
wonderful community. So I have Isomehow lucked into what I feel
was a great job and a greatlife.

I should just to just to wrap up actually, do a
big thanks because it is thatcommunity, and you're very much
part of that community. And Ithink that's interesting where
you have sort of being morecommercially on the scene than
academically on the scene, butbeing very much part of the
academic community. If thatmakes sense. You know, your your
time and efforts in with Isaacas well. The support that you've

(01:04:49):
given all of us throughdeveloping FCS Express as users
who wanted you to put newfeatures in, how you responded
that, The amount of academicinput and impact you've had is
not insignificant.
And, you know, when you reflect,when you look back, you've been
extremely influential on theflow cytometry market, and you

(01:05:11):
should be super proud of that.I'm sure you are super proud of
that. But as a flow cytometristand someone who's used and
benefited from Essay Express, abig thanks for me and a big
thanks for many other people. SoI I just before I sign off, just
say, please, everyone who'swatched or listened, obviously,
go and have a look at the opensource project. And what was the
website, Dave?

It was opencytometryhardware.org.

So go and have a look at that, see what's going
on with it. You've heard himmention Paul Robinson, Howard
Shapiro, and others. Please goback and look at the other
Flowstars. Please do subscribeto the channel. But most of all,
Dave, thank you so much fortaking your time to join me
today.
We didn't even get to talk aboutyour courses that you're
running, and so please look outfor Dave's courses as well.
There won't be a better tutorwhen it comes to data analysis.

(01:05:55):
Dave, thank you very much.

Thank you, Peter. Thanks for having me. Was
a great chat.

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