March 3, 2022 • 40 mins
Mark Ford has been in involved in dozens of multimillion-dollar businesses. He helped Bill Bonner build the Agora Companies, which has dominated the financial publishing industry for over a decade, and broke over a $1 billion in top-line revenue.
I met him the first time back in 2016 or 17 when my former business partner was managing the affiliate program for his Palm Beach Letter. Today we talk about the state of the digital publishing business focused on retail and self-directed investors. Plus, what ideas engage investors online and more.
Mark's knowledge of the business is what you would expect from someone who helped build a billion-dollar company in the industry - extraordinary.
In this conversation he and I discuss what it takes to engage a self-directed retail investor audience - ideas, worldview, and more.
When we turn to the future of the industry he then says some remarkable things.
This conversation is one you don't want to miss if you're building or work in a financial publishing business or, are hoping to build an engaged retail investor audience online today.
FinPub Pro is produced by The Financial Marketing Summit, the #1 networking and marketing conference for financial newsletter publishers, trader educators, and digital financial media.
John Newtson, host and founder of The Financial Marketing Summit can be reached via LinkedIn at John Newtson
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Newtson (00:00):
All right.
Well, thanks, mark, for joiningme today.
I'm really excited to have youon to talk with the Financial
Marketing Summit community aboutthe industry trends right now.
So thanks for being here.
Great to be with you.
John, if I remember the storyright, I think you joined Agora
(00:23):
when maybe it was somewherearound $6 million in revenue or
something like that, andobviously it's grown into a
behemoth of a business andyou've had a huge impact on the
industry.
You guys have been the dominantplayer in the industry and then
now, in 2022, we're kind of ina period of time where I feel
like there's just a lot ofthings changing in the industry.
(00:46):
And so, first and foremost, wehave the, the increased
regulation, kind of a regulatoryattention, I should say, from
the FTC and kind of the impactsthat's having on the business.
We have the mainstreaming ofthe industry becoming a much
bigger industry as our customerbase grows and as more and more
(01:07):
individual investors becomedo-it-yourself investors and
come online looking forinformation.
And then we have all theseintersections intersections with
FinTech, intersections withother digital platforms like
broker-dealers, capital marketsand I did an interview with a
gentleman named Ian Rosen, whowas the GM of MarketWatch at one
(01:29):
point and CEO of StockTwits andhe's part of a fintech called
Tiffin and they just raised $100million and they're buying up a
bunch of small publishers andhe had a really interesting
point and he's like, from thetech perspective, it used to be
that developing technology andFinTech that was the hard thing,
but that's not really the hardthing for those guys anymore.
(01:50):
The hard thing is what you guyshave done, which is build
audience, particularly at scalewithin the financial sector, and
that is the most valuable thingright now and I think that you
know.
First and foremost, I'd love toget your take on what it is
that engages investors right,because traditionally, the
(02:14):
newsletter space I would sayfocused on alternatives, had
personalities, but you guys havebecome the masters of this
model of using content inpromotion to engage investors.
So when you think about whatideas sell or engage investors,
how do you even think about thatfrom a framework?
Mark Ford (02:41):
Well, there's a very traditional way of looking at it
, which is to imagine thatinvestors, or rather people that
are willing to pay money to getinvestment information, are
motivated by either fear orgreed, and fear certainly plays
(03:04):
a role with many of ourcustomers.
But greed, I think, is a badterm to use because it short
circuits all the other emotionsthat are at play when people are
looking to improve are at playwhen people are looking to
(03:32):
improve their stock marketportfolio performance or their
wealth, and, in fact, greed isprobably a very rare motivation.
It's mostly about other thingslike Other things like
self-esteem and righting wrongs,and also curiosity and also
worldview.
A big part of it has to do withpeople had a like-minded view
(04:24):
of the world.
So, I think, go ahead.
John Newtson (04:29):
Well, I was just going to hone in on that.
The worldview aspect, I feellike, is one of those things
that has been that's easily lost, especially in people who come
at this business from kind oflearning, a copywriting
perspective, or they're comingat it from a very active trading
perspective and they'rethinking about, like the
technical analysis, they'rethinking about, maybe,
(04:50):
individual stock picks, butthey're not stepping back and
saying no, like when you build afranchise or you're building a
publication, you have to take aview on the world and be able to
communicate that.
So that's a pretty do you thinkthat's pretty foundational,
then, to messaging.
Mark Ford (05:09):
Yeah, and I can understand how now with them.
If somebody is coming into thebusiness now as a younger person
, you might think it's all abouttrading and profits.
But you're not going to reallybuild a big file that way.
Where you know, agora is.
I don't know how big our unpaidfile is.
(05:33):
It's three or four million,maybe five million, but the paid
file is a million and a halfand that's not counting a major
part of our business that wejust sold and you can't get
those kind of numbers.
Traders represent maybe at best5% of our files.
Certainly professional tradersare really not the target.
(06:00):
We're looking for individualamateur investors that want help
.
The traders among them are asmall percentage of your file.
So if you want to develop thefile of 1,000 people willing to
pay you $10,000, you're going toneed at least 50,000 paid
(06:22):
subscribers to listen to yourgeneral investment advice.
So, yes, it would be a mistaketo think that it's all about
profits and making quick bucksand so on, and often the younger
copywriters.
That's something that thesituation has to deal with,
because it's hard for them tobelieve that if they go for a
(06:45):
longer game in terms ofdeveloping relationship with a
customer, that in the endeverybody will be better off,
including them, because theirroyalties will be longer and
stronger.
John Newtson (07:00):
Yeah, and that's like I remember the, like these
old great magalog packages,right, I mean you go back to
bookalogs like plague of theblack debt, and I remember there
was a promo I think it wasignore china, lose money, and
it's these big macro kind oftheses and it seemed like the
copy was selling kind of a macroum and um view on the world,
(07:21):
and then the back ends were muchmore like active, but the front
end product and ideas werethese big kind of macro trends
often.
And then I feel like, probablylike the last five, six years,
that this kind of uptick inactive trading everybody gets so
excited about, I would say someof the trader educators on on
(07:43):
that use a lot of social, whohave maybe a younger demographic
and they're thinking, oh well,this is the future, but like,
demographically, that's still,you know, the younger, younger I
mean the first millennial justhit 40 last year Our market is
still very much an olderinvestor, because that's when
(08:04):
you get really serious about themarkets is my view.
And so the I feel like, thoughthere's this boom in trading
promos that maybe because partof it was we had the, the crypto
boom, we had, um, the cannabisboom, and so I feel like a lot
of the copywriters that came up.
Um, and I say this is somebodywho was a copywriter for years.
(08:25):
I was used to write for claytonmake peace and um, uh, I worked
in the trading niche when Istarted and it seemed like the
the trading promos were so muchfocused on gains, big winners
and systems that you have ageneration of copywriters that
don't understand how to write abig idea promo.
Mark Ford (08:46):
Yeah, I agree, I agree with you and they also.
They find it difficult to writethose type of promos under
strict regulatory controls.
Controls because, you know,when the you know we talked
(09:07):
about it before, the FTC is hasbeen pretty active, we had a
dealing with them ourselves andand their their rules are, you
know, they're tough, they'rereasonable rules, but what
they're trying to eliminate, Ithink correctly, is people that
(09:30):
are giving misleadingimpressions about track record,
for example, for an analyst,track record by cherry picking
winners and so on.
And if that's your only game,you know, if that's as a
copywriter, if the only thingyou know how to do is just, you
know, look at the track recordand extrapolate, extract, cherry
(09:53):
picked examples and put themrepeatedly on a page, and what
are you going to do when you'renot allowed to do that anymore?
Right, and there's plenty to do, Plenty of successful packages
that can be written, but youneed more arrows in your quiver
than that.
And that's not to say, however,that big idea packages always
(10:16):
work.
You know, as I've explained tomy partners many times, that big
idea packages only work about20% of the time, 30% of the time
.
Most of the time it's veryconventional packages.
I'm not talking about tradinggreed, you know hyper.
There's a big differencebetween front end and back end.
But there are two or three andand Clayton knew this better
(10:39):
than anybody there are two orthree general, I would say
approaches to or aspects ofinvestor.
I'm going to just say investorfor the moment, although we know
that many of our subscribersdon't actually invest.
They just like reading about it.
But we'll call them investors.
(11:00):
Investor psychology is so.
You have the let's take a quicklook.
You have these macroeconomicpeople, the people that have a
view of how the world works froma macroeconomic point of view,
the permadears and so on, andthey want to buy your newsletter
(11:21):
to prove that they're rightabout their economic theories.
Then you have there's a versionof them that's different their
economic theories.
Then you have there's a versionof them that's different.
There's a version of kind of afire and brimstone gold guys
that feel that the world isgoing to hell in a handbasket.
These two overlap, but it's adifferent approach.
(11:43):
Then there are the investors whobelieve that the way to get
wealthy is through little tricksand gimmicks.
There's little things you cando.
You save a little money in tax.
You try this over there youinvest on Monday morning instead
of Monday afternoon, and that'sa whole different mentality.
And then there's people whotheir primary interest and these
(12:04):
are mostly people that areretired or just about to retire
is income, and what they want toknow is how they can boost
their income.
So there are those and there'sprobably two or three others I
haven't mentioned.
But what you'll see in themarket, if you have a perch,
like I've been lucky to haveover the past 20 years of having
, you know, I don't know 60 or80 promotions that are going out
(12:28):
every month that I can look atinside and out and see the
results on, you'll see thatthere are waves.
There are always waves.
And you go through all thesedifferent aspects, aspects of
buyer psychology.
You know the things that appealpsychology.
You know the things that appealSometimes.
(12:49):
You know huge gains appeal, butsometimes like small dollar
amounts.
You know how to put an extra$300 is more powerful or more
believable than how to make 360%on your next.
So these, so these things goback and forth and of course
(13:11):
that's.
That's one issue.
And then the other issue forthe copywriters you've got the
product that you're selling,which is an actual thing, with a
real track record and you can'tmake it turn into just anything
.
And so that's a.
You know, that's another issuetoo.
Some you know that's anotherissue too.
Some you know.
Again, from our perspectiveit's one we could manage because
(13:33):
we could put.
We could, you know, take athird of our promotions, keep
them going, keep the back endsgoing, but not do any front end
promotions, because we know thatwhole approach is just not
going to work for another sixmonths or a year and there's no
certain way of knowing, you know, when these things are coming
and going.
John Newtson (13:53):
So Well, so when you build a franchise, I mean
like it seems to me, like the,you know you have these
different market segments andthe, the, the worldview that you
present, like that.
I remember when you launchedPalm Beach letter, you had a
very kind of clear worldview.
You had a very clear kind ofeven the tone to it.
(14:15):
That is very different than,say, some of the more financial
franchises that were much moreaggressive.
So do you think, are you howmuch overlap is there between
these kind of like?
You know you have the guys,like you said, who are looking
for little tricks.
It's a different mentality.
So you have these differentmentalities of investors.
In a general franchise like, Ican't imagine you tapping more
(14:36):
than two or three of thosereally consistently then,
because they can be prettyvaried.
Right, like the super activeoptions trader is very different
than the income investor.
Mark Ford (14:48):
Okay, I'm not quite sure I answered the question,
but let me answer a question onthat I thought you might've
asked, which is that you canhave a franchise.
Generally, what we've done isyou create a franchise that has
a certain that's based in not itmust be based on the key idea
(15:11):
person in that franchise let'sjust say it's an analyst and
then from that franchise youdevelop backends that are
appropriate to it.
Now, if your guru, your analyst, has any integrity, he's only
going to allow you to do certainkinds of backends.
So when I was writing the frontend for Palm Beach Letter, you
(15:35):
know I was not interested inpromoting any backends that I
didn't feel were useful.
So, as far as you know, I waswilling to sell an option
service that sold puts but notmany other things.
But it turned out that that wasfine because I was able to
(15:57):
engage with the trader that wasgoing to be recommending and we
came up with a system thatreflected my own point of view
and even a few new bells andwhistles that I thought was
clever, that I took credit for,and and we it sold very well and
it was really kind of a breadand butter version of, you know,
(16:22):
selling puts with a couple oflittle twists, but it was
wrapped in.
It was wrapped in me and myvery conservative approach to
investing.
And so people felt, in fact, wesold hundreds of thousands of
dollars, maybe over a milliondollars worth of that product
before we ever launched theproduct, just by me talking
(16:44):
about what I was doingeditorially and asking them if
you wanted to sign up for a, ahot list.
You know.
So when we bring it out and we,I mean those people, just they
didn't even read the promotionand just signed up.
John Newtson (16:56):
Well, that's, I think that's, I mean.
There's a couple of things thatcome to mind to that one is I
mean, first and foremost is I'veread your editorial quite a bit
and your, your promotions, andyour editorial is so smoothly
transitions, it feels like, intoa promotion without even trying
that you can't even tell thedifference when, when it's when
it was, when it was especiallyin the early days of Palm beach
letter, when you were reallywriting a lot there, I don't
(17:18):
think you could tell thedifference easily between your
promotion and your editorial,which is, I think, a remarkable
thing for for people to notice.
Mark Ford (17:27):
Well, I'm you know, which is, I think, a remarkable
thing for people to notice.
Well, I've always said tocopywriters that the only
difference between good copy andgood editorial writing is one
is selling an idea and one isselling a manifestation of an
idea.
That's the only difference.
It's very little difference.
So when I was selling, when Iwas, in other words, for me,
(17:50):
there was no difference.
I was writing about, you know myskepticism of options, and now
I learned this and I learnedthis, and this is all true.
But I knew that people would beinterested because I knew that
I had a.
You know, one of the advantagesI've had in our business since
the very beginning is I've neverbeen interested in investing,
(18:10):
and so I've learned very littleand I've maintained a level of
ignorance that representsbeginning enthusiasts.
You know, I kind of know allthe terms, but I don't really
know and I don't really want to.
It feels painful to me.
So when I decided that we hadto have, you know, I had to have
a back end service to make thething viable, I just let people
(18:31):
come along with me, showed themmy, my doubts and concerns and
then and then show them how thisTom Dyson, who was my younger
partner who is showing me how todo it right, getting excited
about the discoveries, and so itwas all genuine and it was
(18:51):
seamless, because there wasn'tany.
I was literally selling the ideaof, you know, this type of
option strategy as I wasdiscovering it.
You know one of my best, one ofmy most productive emails I
don't know what I attached it to, but it was an email.
(19:11):
I was 60-something when I waswriting it and I had just read
my I've been in the business nowfor over 30 years at this time
and I read I just read my firstbook on Warren Buffett and I
wrote an essay about how amazingWarren Buffett is and what
Warren Buffett is, and thisthing sold like gangbusters.
I forget what it was, what weattached to.
(19:34):
It might have been even a freepremium or whatever, but I got a
huge response and I just youknow.
It just shows you that we oftenunderestimate the level of
sophistication of most of ourreaders, of our basic reader.
And also that our readers feel alittle bit intimidated.
So that's why readers don'treally for the front end, which
(20:00):
is the most important.
What readers are looking for issomebody that they can trust,
because they know they'll neverreally understand all these
terms.
It's like talking to aninsurance agent you know you're
never going to know what thehell you're buying, but at least
if the guy seems honest, you'rewilling to go ahead, and so I
think that's why.
So some people are looking for aperson that has the same
(20:22):
geopolitical views.
Some people are looking forsomebody that has the same like
moral, ethical views.
Some people are looking forsomebody that has the kind of
approach to living life likelittle bits and pieces making.
You know that makes them feelcomfortable, and so that's what
all that other stuff is reallyabout.
(20:43):
It's about that that whatyou're doing is you're
introducing yourself to peoplethat you know want to be in the
investment business.
You know individual investmentbusiness, but they're amateurs
and they know they'll always beamateurs.
So they need guidance and theydon't want to be taken.
But they're not idiots, youknow.
(21:03):
They know that they'revulnerable to be taking
attention, to be taken advantageof, and so they do what?
The only thing you can do.
They use their emotionalintelligence to try to figure
out whether the person that umthey're thinking about
subscribing to is trustworthy,and knowledgeable and so on.
John Newtson (21:22):
I love that that's .
That's an interesting like wayto frame it, that they're using
their emotional intelligence onthat, which makes total sense
because there's this big elementof identity then in what they
buy, like I will buy for aperson who's this, but I
wouldn't buy from right.
Mark Ford (21:37):
but I'm glad you said that because there's a
corollary, contrary corollary tothat, which is that in in every
and this is more for publishersand for copywriters but but
within every group of 10,000 or100,000 or a million subscribers
, financial news subscribersthere's a portion, there's
(22:00):
always a proportion of them thatare like crazy traders and want
to make crazy money, and theyexist in every segment.
I mean, you know, I remember,you know my partner, bill Bonner
.
He writes, just, you know,everything is doom and gloom and
(22:22):
I remember seeing he wrote oneparticularly you know gloomy
piece about how you should justnever get near stocks and
they're all terrible.
And then right after that, likeright in the middle of it was
like a little ad for anotherservice and the ad said, like
how to make a thousand timesyour money or whatever, and I
(22:42):
looked at the numbers and thatthing was exploding.
People were, you know, theytook a pause from hearing why
they should never invest instocks.
Now, not all of them, obviously,a tiny percentage of them.
So you do need to remember that, as a business person,
publisher, that there are alwaysgoing to be some people that
(23:02):
just are in it for the biggestpromises and yeah, but so
they'll be there for you.
But my general point is I thinkyou shouldn't be there for you.
But I my my general point is Idon't.
I think you shouldn't belooking for them on the front
end.
You know, look for the peoplethat are going to stay with you
because they appreciate yourperspective, your approach, your
(23:23):
view of the world well, I thinkthat's.
John Newtson (23:25):
it's such an interesting thing because the
because of where I'm at in thepublishing, I don't have your
view of as many businesses,obviously, but with the
conference we see lots of smallpublishers, we see lots of small
trader educators.
I know a lot of your publishersand then when I see the
(23:45):
businesses that are stable inrevenue versus the ones that
might kind of have like a bigrun-up and then they disappear,
that front end piece is verymuch different.
It's the the more aggressivethat copy is on the front, it
seems more volatile to customersabsolutely, yeah, 100.
Mark Ford (24:04):
and and not just the piece itself but the franchise
itself.
The first, uh, the firstsuccessful package I wrote was
for an investment club.
This was back in I don't knowwhat in the early 80s.
It was the first promotion Iever wrote and it turned into
(24:25):
what's now the oxford club,which is one of the um, the
publishing franchises, and thathas never really changed from
that first promotion I wrote.
Well, it's changed in a sensethat when I wrote it I was
making stuff up.
Now it's actually real.
They really do have thesemansions all over the place and
(24:47):
these great people behind them.
I was writing about what I wouldlike it to be and it's so solid
their franchise that it's veryhard to write a promotion for
them that doesn't have somesolidity.
And of all the franchises, thegroup publishing groups and
(25:10):
investment side in Agora thathas had it hasn't had the
greatest growth, but it's it'shad the most steady growth,
continued growth, and there's alot to be said for that because
it's it's.
You know it's great fun to gofrom, you know, a hundred
million dollars to $300 million,but when you drop back down to
$80 million, boy, that's not funat all.
John Newtson (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, and it is.
The Oxford Club is one of theones that I feel like, because I
remember the Oxford Club.
They were a big, they were oneof the more successful ones back
when you did way back withEarlier to Rise, when you did a
marketing conference, like aone-time marketing conference
that you sold out to the space,and I remember the Oxford Club
(25:53):
was one of the ones.
I think at the time theymight've been 60 million, I
think they said, or somethinglike that yeah, yeah, and
they're still here and a lot ofpublishers came up after them
and have disappeared, butthey're still stable, that's
right, yeah, yeah.
Mark Ford (26:08):
Yeah, so that's again , you know, if you're a
copywriter, that this stuff maynot be as important to you.
But if you you know, if youdecide to get into the business
of, you know, sellinginformation, then it is
important to know.
I mean, what you're alwayslooking for is lifetime value,
and that you know your lifetimevalue means it comes from, uh,
(26:32):
from years of relationship, andyou know your customers won't
stay with you unless you'regiving them value.
Eventually they'll.
You can fool them once, you canfool them twice, but after that
they're pretty much gone right,yeah, so let me.
John Newtson (26:47):
Let me switch a little bit because I know we
don't have too much time, but,um, the the kind of direction of
the space going mainstream, andthat has to do with the fact
that we've been in a bull marketof a self-directed investor for
probably close to 10 years andthat's going to continue.
I think it's a generationaltransformation of how people
(27:09):
choose to invest.
What do you think the directionof the industry is?
Mark Ford (27:15):
Well, yeah, it's a good question.
I don't know the answer.
There are times when I thinkthat we're at the end of our
industry.
Honestly, I think that thereare between.
Well, I would just say, becauseof the general, the way the
(27:38):
media has developed, the accessto alternative information, the
ability of regulators to squashthings, you know, I've seen
other sectors of our generalindustry disappear and sometimes
(28:04):
I think this may be true to us.
However, so far it hasn'texcuse me, so far it hasn't
happened.
Generally, what happens is yougo into slumps and things change
, and and so you know, I'mcertainly not going to give up
on it, but it is different, verydifferent.
The fundamental way that it'sdifferent from back in the
(28:26):
direct mail days is was apparentto me 20 years ago, which is
that was apparent to me 20 yearsago, which is that and this is
something we introduced to Goraa couple of years ago to be a
good business today, you'regoing to have to be.
Authenticity and transparencyare key.
You can't pretend to be abusiness that you're not,
(28:50):
because everything istransparent today.
People will find out who youreally are and what you've done,
and so on, and all these thingsare on the permanent record.
So, yeah, so on the one hand, itmakes for a lot more
competition because everybodycan see what everybody else is
(29:12):
doing and you know, likeconstantly and make adjustments
and knock each other off, and sothere are many, many more
players than there ever were inour business.
Also, the barrier of entry issmaller business and also the
(29:32):
barrier of entry is smaller.
But also because of all thatcompetition, uh, the, the cost,
the media cost, is high, youknow it's it's like at optimal,
it's kind of at peaking levelsall the time, because you've got
a bunch of it's like um beingon worth avenue or on, uh, fifth
avenue, new york, you know, a,you can make money there, but
the rent is so high you've gotto have really good game, and so
(29:54):
I think that's kind of where weare right now.
So it's a lot of pressure andyou know, I do think people,
businesses will survive, butthey're the guy you're going to,
since you need transparency andyou don't have authenticity.
You have to have somethingsolid to sell, something that
(30:16):
does distinguish you in some way, and it's, I think it's going
to be very hard for the wannabesand the you know, to the people
that are knocking each otheroff to just they'll have a
moment and then it'll be, it'llbe gone.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion at all.
John Newtson (30:34):
No, you did Absolutely.
I think that that there's twothings that that first, I have a
comment, which is the mediacost issue, I feel like is
something that too many peopleare ignoring right now, because
I see so I see a lot.
This is the first time we'vebeen running the Financial
Marketing Summit for almost 10years now.
This is the first time in thehistory of the industry, as far
(30:54):
as I know, where we have mediaagencies that primarily were
serving our space.
I have more media agencies inthe 25 to $70 million range than
I have publishers.
That means that, obviously,media agencies are fundamentally
a parasitic revenue model.
Right, they're only as big as apercentage of their customer
base, and their customer basenow includes a different mix of
(31:19):
people where we have actualissuers, like the reggae and
crowdfunding space that isreliant on either a newsletter
covering the issue or amarketing campaign, and I've
seen guys doing a reggaecampaign and they're spending
$10,000 a day on Facebook tofill it.
And so the media just from thatone segment, competition is
(31:43):
coming.
Then we see some of these otherplatforms that are coming in
and trying to go after theinvestor.
Um, there's a lot more moneycoming into the space, which is
click competition.
So I think you're right likethat.
You have to have a higher levelof game just to stay alive yeah
, yeah, and there's some goodand some bad about the.
Mark Ford (32:03):
The good is that um, uh, in other words.
In other words, what'shappening is we're starting to
compete with actual moneymanagement firms, hedge funds
and so on, and the difference,the problem there is that for us
(32:23):
in the newsletter industry, ahigh lifetime value for a
customer might be $600 or $700.
For them, a modest is $5,000.
So that's a lot more money tospend to acquire a customer.
And the bad news is for us isbecause, you know, obviously we
(32:45):
would need to figure out how toget our lifetime value up a lot
higher.
We would need to figure out howto get our lifetime value up a
lot higher.
But the good news is that whenyou have all that money to spend
, you don't have to have suchcrazy copy.
Fisher Investments is all overthe place.
With very modest initialentries.
You can have a much longercustomer onboarding, whatever
(33:08):
they call it today, and so Ithink that's generally good for
the business.
But again, like it's to me,it's authenticity and
transparency.
If you don't have a somethingyou know, an actual business
product that is really good andsolid and has value, then it's
(33:33):
like you're trying to build abusiness on swamp water.
It's just more than ever andyou need that, and that's why I
feel kind of generallyoptimistic.
I guess I'd put it this way Ourbusiness as we know it probably
will disappear, but people thatare smart in our business and
understand the fundamentals willcontinue and reshape their
(33:56):
business into whatever it needsto be, and whether that means
offering alternative services,offering.
You know, at Agora we'reoffering a lot more technical
solutions for, like family stoplosses and all kinds of things
like that that people enjoy.
So we'll see how that goes, butI generally feel optimistic
about it.
John Newtson (34:17):
Yeah, I think that there's definitely the
opportunity with the tools kindof inside of the business.
But I also see because, if Ilook at other areas of financial
and how they're kind of movinglike reaching towards us, in the
sense of you have platforms,you have VCs out there who are
trying to do media and contentand really, like I did a big
(34:37):
presentation for FMS last yearon all these different trends
and one of them is how all thebusiness development functions
and capital raise functions intraditional finance are actually
merging with a content mediamodel and so as we see that
happen more, I think that one ofthe things that I've definitely
(34:57):
learned from you guys about thenewsletter industry is that
it's focused a lot of times onalternative ideas, fringe ideas,
early ideas, things that youcan't get in the mainstream, or
else why would you pay for it?
Ideas, early ideas, things thatyou can't get in the mainstream
, or else why would you pay forit?
As the power of having anaudience and the power of your
audience is unrivaled in theretail space.
I mean, I know people out therewho are trying to.
(35:20):
They're so eager to find a wayto get a company into your
ecosystem because for arecommendation on an earned
media basis that because itcould drive two, three $400
million in volume for theirpublic company.
And I think that with that kindof power, I think that we're
moving into an area like thebusiness is going to change, but
(35:41):
it's going to be more like arevenue strategy change that
we're going to start to seewhere, taking the worldview and
the ability to engage us and theinvestor and merging it with
some of these VC models and orpartnering with accelerators and
groups where you can createsomething, where they can
attract a more unique deal flowright Companies and now the
(36:03):
franchise has unique earlyopportunities because I've
talked to a lot of capitalmarkets players has unique early
opportunities because I'vetalked to a lot of capital
markets players guys who arepretty sophisticated, a couple
of guys who have multiplebillions in income themselves
from taking companies public andwhat they're telling me is that
the capital market process haskind of changed so much because
so many of these brokers thatthey used to rely on have moved
(36:24):
to asset management models thatthey want publishers to come in,
work with them to earlier andget customers into deals way
earlier than they ever wouldhave allowed them before,
because there isn't anybody inthat spot that could fill that
piece of the capital life cycle.
And so just we have one guy.
(36:45):
He was Dr Ghosh, he was thehead of macroeconomics for
mubadala, which is the uaesovereign wealth fund.
He invests like um, he workedat bridgewater, raised a billion
or something like that for forthem, um, and he's all about
impact investing and alternativeenergy and things like that and
(37:05):
he gets chunks of of uh dealflow from companies that are
raising with Bill Gates's familyoffice or his breakthrough
energy, his VC fund, and he'ssaying, well, maybe I could find
relationships in the publishingworld to slice off pieces of
these deals that are getting inat the same time as those guys.
We're talking about some of themost sophisticated investors in
(37:27):
alternative energy, and if hecould find a publishing partner,
he would love to be able totake that and say, hey, now we
have customers who can co-investat the same time as these
traditionally A-level investors,because that capital power all
of a sudden is there, and so Ibelieve fundamentally that that
(37:49):
is one of those areas that we'regoing to see.
Mark Ford (37:52):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're right.
We have one of our oursuperstars is very much, you
know working towards that asbusiness.
I mean for for Bill and for meit's it brings us away from what
we, what we're interested indoing, staying on the idea side
(38:13):
and staying behind the FirstAmendment and so on.
But I think you're probablyright.
It's just the logic of movingthat direction is so strong and
the the rewards are so evidentthat I I don't see how people
resist.
To tell you the truth, yeah,it's more of.
John Newtson (38:35):
It's more of a question of like, how do you,
how do you do it when you havesuch an established revenue
model and you know business thatyou don't want to put at risk
because you have relied on thefirst amendment business and so
it is a more complicatedenvironment, I think.
Mark Ford (38:48):
But Well, if you figure it out, let me know.
John Newtson (38:51):
We have a lot.
We've spent a lot of time andwe spend a lot of time talking
about it internally with oursmall group.
That's great.
There are some models thatwe've developed actually that I
think we're going to work reallywell.
Mark Ford (39:03):
Oh, I'm serious, Let me know.
John Newtson (39:05):
Oh yeah, no, I'd love to run them by you.
Probably not on a recorded callfor everybody, but Right,
probably not.
But no, I hate Mark.
I know you have to go here in aminute, so thank you so much
for taking the time.
I really enjoyed talking to you.
I just to reiterate, exceptthat I said in an email like
you've had a huge influence onme going back to you know, awai
(39:29):
earlier to rise like all yourbooks, when we started our
accelerator group, the firstthing that we did was we bought
copies of Ready Fire Aim foreverybody.
If you're going to build apublishing business like this is
this is like direct response,publishing 101.
Like you have to know thisstuff.
So that's good.
Mark Ford (39:49):
I'm glad to hear that .
Thank you, and if any of you,your readers, want to follow my
insightful advice on how topersuade your wife not to watch
the movie that she wants towatch with you and how to deal
with your bad eating habits,they can follow me at
(40:09):
markfordnet.
John Newtson (40:11):
Wonderful.
I'll post that link with this.
Thanks so much, mark.
All right, john Pleasure.
Thanks, bye.
Bye, take care Bye.
All right.
Well, thanks, mark, for joiningme today.
I'm really excited to have youon to talk with the Financial
Marketing Summit community aboutthe industry trends right now.
So thanks for being here.
Great to be with you.
John, if I remember the storyright, I think you joined Agora
(00:23):
when maybe it was somewherearound $6 million in revenue or
something like that, andobviously it's grown into a
behemoth of a business andyou've had a huge impact on the
industry.
You guys have been the dominantplayer in the industry and then
now, in 2022, we're kind of ina period of time where I feel
like there's just a lot ofthings changing in the industry.
(00:46):
And so, first and foremost, wehave the, the increased
regulation, kind of a regulatoryattention, I should say, from
the FTC and kind of the impactsthat's having on the business.
We have the mainstreaming ofthe industry becoming a much
bigger industry as our customerbase grows and as more and more
(01:07):
individual investors becomedo-it-yourself investors and
come online looking forinformation.
And then we have all theseintersections intersections with
FinTech, intersections withother digital platforms like
broker-dealers, capital marketsand I did an interview with a
gentleman named Ian Rosen, whowas the GM of MarketWatch at one
(01:29):
point and CEO of StockTwits andhe's part of a fintech called
Tiffin and they just raised $100million and they're buying up a
bunch of small publishers andhe had a really interesting
point and he's like, from thetech perspective, it used to be
that developing technology andFinTech that was the hard thing,
but that's not really the hardthing for those guys anymore.
(01:50):
The hard thing is what you guyshave done, which is build
audience, particularly at scalewithin the financial sector, and
that is the most valuable thingright now and I think that you
know.
First and foremost, I'd love toget your take on what it is
that engages investors right,because traditionally, the
(02:14):
newsletter space I would sayfocused on alternatives, had
personalities, but you guys havebecome the masters of this
model of using content inpromotion to engage investors.
So when you think about whatideas sell or engage investors,
how do you even think about thatfrom a framework?
Mark Ford (02:41):
Well, there's a very traditional way of looking at it
, which is to imagine thatinvestors, or rather people that
are willing to pay money to getinvestment information, are
motivated by either fear orgreed, and fear certainly plays
(03:04):
a role with many of ourcustomers.
But greed, I think, is a badterm to use because it short
circuits all the other emotionsthat are at play when people are
looking to improve are at playwhen people are looking to
(03:32):
improve their stock marketportfolio performance or their
wealth, and, in fact, greed isprobably a very rare motivation.
It's mostly about other thingslike Other things like
self-esteem and righting wrongs,and also curiosity and also
worldview.
A big part of it has to do withpeople had a like-minded view
(04:24):
of the world.
So, I think, go ahead.
John Newtson (04:29):
Well, I was just going to hone in on that.
The worldview aspect, I feellike, is one of those things
that has been that's easily lost, especially in people who come
at this business from kind oflearning, a copywriting
perspective, or they're comingat it from a very active trading
perspective and they'rethinking about, like the
technical analysis, they'rethinking about, maybe,
(04:50):
individual stock picks, butthey're not stepping back and
saying no, like when you build afranchise or you're building a
publication, you have to take aview on the world and be able to
communicate that.
So that's a pretty do you thinkthat's pretty foundational,
then, to messaging.
Mark Ford (05:09):
Yeah, and I can understand how now with them.
If somebody is coming into thebusiness now as a younger person
, you might think it's all abouttrading and profits.
But you're not going to reallybuild a big file that way.
Where you know, agora is.
I don't know how big our unpaidfile is.
(05:33):
It's three or four million,maybe five million, but the paid
file is a million and a halfand that's not counting a major
part of our business that wejust sold and you can't get
those kind of numbers.
Traders represent maybe at best5% of our files.
Certainly professional tradersare really not the target.
(06:00):
We're looking for individualamateur investors that want help
.
The traders among them are asmall percentage of your file.
So if you want to develop thefile of 1,000 people willing to
pay you $10,000, you're going toneed at least 50,000 paid
(06:22):
subscribers to listen to yourgeneral investment advice.
So, yes, it would be a mistaketo think that it's all about
profits and making quick bucksand so on, and often the younger
copywriters.
That's something that thesituation has to deal with,
because it's hard for them tobelieve that if they go for a
(06:45):
longer game in terms ofdeveloping relationship with a
customer, that in the endeverybody will be better off,
including them, because theirroyalties will be longer and
stronger.
John Newtson (07:00):
Yeah, and that's like I remember the, like these
old great magalog packages,right, I mean you go back to
bookalogs like plague of theblack debt, and I remember there
was a promo I think it wasignore china, lose money, and
it's these big macro kind oftheses and it seemed like the
copy was selling kind of a macroum and um view on the world,
(07:21):
and then the back ends were muchmore like active, but the front
end product and ideas werethese big kind of macro trends
often.
And then I feel like, probablylike the last five, six years,
that this kind of uptick inactive trading everybody gets so
excited about, I would say someof the trader educators on on
(07:43):
that use a lot of social, whohave maybe a younger demographic
and they're thinking, oh well,this is the future, but like,
demographically, that's still,you know, the younger, younger I
mean the first millennial justhit 40 last year Our market is
still very much an olderinvestor, because that's when
(08:04):
you get really serious about themarkets is my view.
And so the I feel like, thoughthere's this boom in trading
promos that maybe because partof it was we had the, the crypto
boom, we had, um, the cannabisboom, and so I feel like a lot
of the copywriters that came up.
Um, and I say this is somebodywho was a copywriter for years.
(08:25):
I was used to write for claytonmake peace and um, uh, I worked
in the trading niche when Istarted and it seemed like the
the trading promos were so muchfocused on gains, big winners
and systems that you have ageneration of copywriters that
don't understand how to write abig idea promo.
Mark Ford (08:46):
Yeah, I agree, I agree with you and they also.
They find it difficult to writethose type of promos under
strict regulatory controls.
Controls because, you know,when the you know we talked
(09:07):
about it before, the FTC is hasbeen pretty active, we had a
dealing with them ourselves andand their their rules are, you
know, they're tough, they'rereasonable rules, but what
they're trying to eliminate, Ithink correctly, is people that
(09:30):
are giving misleadingimpressions about track record,
for example, for an analyst,track record by cherry picking
winners and so on.
And if that's your only game,you know, if that's as a
copywriter, if the only thingyou know how to do is just, you
know, look at the track recordand extrapolate, extract, cherry
(09:53):
picked examples and put themrepeatedly on a page, and what
are you going to do when you'renot allowed to do that anymore?
Right, and there's plenty to do, Plenty of successful packages
that can be written, but youneed more arrows in your quiver
than that.
And that's not to say, however,that big idea packages always
(10:16):
work.
You know, as I've explained tomy partners many times, that big
idea packages only work about20% of the time, 30% of the time
.
Most of the time it's veryconventional packages.
I'm not talking about tradinggreed, you know hyper.
There's a big differencebetween front end and back end.
But there are two or three andand Clayton knew this better
(10:39):
than anybody there are two orthree general, I would say
approaches to or aspects ofinvestor.
I'm going to just say investorfor the moment, although we know
that many of our subscribersdon't actually invest.
They just like reading about it.
But we'll call them investors.
(11:00):
Investor psychology is so.
You have the let's take a quicklook.
You have these macroeconomicpeople, the people that have a
view of how the world works froma macroeconomic point of view,
the permadears and so on, andthey want to buy your newsletter
(11:21):
to prove that they're rightabout their economic theories.
Then you have there's a versionof them that's different their
economic theories.
Then you have there's a versionof them that's different.
There's a version of kind of afire and brimstone gold guys
that feel that the world isgoing to hell in a handbasket.
These two overlap, but it's adifferent approach.
(11:43):
Then there are the investors whobelieve that the way to get
wealthy is through little tricksand gimmicks.
There's little things you cando.
You save a little money in tax.
You try this over there youinvest on Monday morning instead
of Monday afternoon, and that'sa whole different mentality.
And then there's people whotheir primary interest and these
(12:04):
are mostly people that areretired or just about to retire
is income, and what they want toknow is how they can boost
their income.
So there are those and there'sprobably two or three others I
haven't mentioned.
But what you'll see in themarket, if you have a perch,
like I've been lucky to haveover the past 20 years of having
, you know, I don't know 60 or80 promotions that are going out
(12:28):
every month that I can look atinside and out and see the
results on, you'll see thatthere are waves.
There are always waves.
And you go through all thesedifferent aspects, aspects of
buyer psychology.
You know the things that appealpsychology.
You know the things that appealSometimes.
(12:49):
You know huge gains appeal, butsometimes like small dollar
amounts.
You know how to put an extra$300 is more powerful or more
believable than how to make 360%on your next.
So these, so these things goback and forth and of course
(13:11):
that's.
That's one issue.
And then the other issue forthe copywriters you've got the
product that you're selling,which is an actual thing, with a
real track record and you can'tmake it turn into just anything
.
And so that's a.
You know, that's another issuetoo.
Some you know that's anotherissue too.
Some you know.
Again, from our perspectiveit's one we could manage because
(13:33):
we could put.
We could, you know, take athird of our promotions, keep
them going, keep the back endsgoing, but not do any front end
promotions, because we know thatwhole approach is just not
going to work for another sixmonths or a year and there's no
certain way of knowing, you know, when these things are coming
and going.
John Newtson (13:53):
So Well, so when you build a franchise, I mean
like it seems to me, like the,you know you have these
different market segments andthe, the, the worldview that you
present, like that.
I remember when you launchedPalm Beach letter, you had a
very kind of clear worldview.
You had a very clear kind ofeven the tone to it.
(14:15):
That is very different than,say, some of the more financial
franchises that were much moreaggressive.
So do you think, are you howmuch overlap is there between
these kind of like?
You know you have the guys,like you said, who are looking
for little tricks.
It's a different mentality.
So you have these differentmentalities of investors.
In a general franchise like, Ican't imagine you tapping more
(14:36):
than two or three of thosereally consistently then,
because they can be prettyvaried.
Right, like the super activeoptions trader is very different
than the income investor.
Mark Ford (14:48):
Okay, I'm not quite sure I answered the question,
but let me answer a question onthat I thought you might've
asked, which is that you canhave a franchise.
Generally, what we've done isyou create a franchise that has
a certain that's based in not itmust be based on the key idea
(15:11):
person in that franchise let'sjust say it's an analyst and
then from that franchise youdevelop backends that are
appropriate to it.
Now, if your guru, your analyst, has any integrity, he's only
going to allow you to do certainkinds of backends.
So when I was writing the frontend for Palm Beach Letter, you
(15:35):
know I was not interested inpromoting any backends that I
didn't feel were useful.
So, as far as you know, I waswilling to sell an option
service that sold puts but notmany other things.
But it turned out that that wasfine because I was able to
(15:57):
engage with the trader that wasgoing to be recommending and we
came up with a system thatreflected my own point of view
and even a few new bells andwhistles that I thought was
clever, that I took credit for,and and we it sold very well and
it was really kind of a breadand butter version of, you know,
(16:22):
selling puts with a couple oflittle twists, but it was
wrapped in.
It was wrapped in me and myvery conservative approach to
investing.
And so people felt, in fact, wesold hundreds of thousands of
dollars, maybe over a milliondollars worth of that product
before we ever launched theproduct, just by me talking
(16:44):
about what I was doingeditorially and asking them if
you wanted to sign up for a, ahot list.
You know.
So when we bring it out and we,I mean those people, just they
didn't even read the promotionand just signed up.
John Newtson (16:56):
Well, that's, I think that's, I mean.
There's a couple of things thatcome to mind to that one is I
mean, first and foremost is I'veread your editorial quite a bit
and your, your promotions, andyour editorial is so smoothly
transitions, it feels like, intoa promotion without even trying
that you can't even tell thedifference when, when it's when
it was, when it was especiallyin the early days of Palm beach
letter, when you were reallywriting a lot there, I don't
(17:18):
think you could tell thedifference easily between your
promotion and your editorial,which is, I think, a remarkable
thing for for people to notice.
Mark Ford (17:27):
Well, I'm you know, which is, I think, a remarkable
thing for people to notice.
Well, I've always said tocopywriters that the only
difference between good copy andgood editorial writing is one
is selling an idea and one isselling a manifestation of an
idea.
That's the only difference.
It's very little difference.
So when I was selling, when Iwas, in other words, for me,
(17:50):
there was no difference.
I was writing about, you know myskepticism of options, and now
I learned this and I learnedthis, and this is all true.
But I knew that people would beinterested because I knew that
I had a.
You know, one of the advantagesI've had in our business since
the very beginning is I've neverbeen interested in investing,
(18:10):
and so I've learned very littleand I've maintained a level of
ignorance that representsbeginning enthusiasts.
You know, I kind of know allthe terms, but I don't really
know and I don't really want to.
It feels painful to me.
So when I decided that we hadto have, you know, I had to have
a back end service to make thething viable, I just let people
(18:31):
come along with me, showed themmy, my doubts and concerns and
then and then show them how thisTom Dyson, who was my younger
partner who is showing me how todo it right, getting excited
about the discoveries, and so itwas all genuine and it was
(18:51):
seamless, because there wasn'tany.
I was literally selling the ideaof, you know, this type of
option strategy as I wasdiscovering it.
You know one of my best, one ofmy most productive emails I
don't know what I attached it to, but it was an email.
(19:11):
I was 60-something when I waswriting it and I had just read
my I've been in the business nowfor over 30 years at this time
and I read I just read my firstbook on Warren Buffett and I
wrote an essay about how amazingWarren Buffett is and what
Warren Buffett is, and thisthing sold like gangbusters.
I forget what it was, what weattached to.
(19:34):
It might have been even a freepremium or whatever, but I got a
huge response and I just youknow.
It just shows you that we oftenunderestimate the level of
sophistication of most of ourreaders, of our basic reader.
And also that our readers feel alittle bit intimidated.
So that's why readers don'treally for the front end, which
(20:00):
is the most important.
What readers are looking for issomebody that they can trust,
because they know they'll neverreally understand all these
terms.
It's like talking to aninsurance agent you know you're
never going to know what thehell you're buying, but at least
if the guy seems honest, you'rewilling to go ahead, and so I
think that's why.
So some people are looking for aperson that has the same
(20:22):
geopolitical views.
Some people are looking forsomebody that has the same like
moral, ethical views.
Some people are looking forsomebody that has the kind of
approach to living life likelittle bits and pieces making.
You know that makes them feelcomfortable, and so that's what
all that other stuff is reallyabout.
(20:43):
It's about that that whatyou're doing is you're
introducing yourself to peoplethat you know want to be in the
investment business.
You know individual investmentbusiness, but they're amateurs
and they know they'll always beamateurs.
So they need guidance and theydon't want to be taken.
But they're not idiots, youknow.
(21:03):
They know that they'revulnerable to be taking
attention, to be taken advantageof, and so they do what?
The only thing you can do.
They use their emotionalintelligence to try to figure
out whether the person that umthey're thinking about
subscribing to is trustworthy,and knowledgeable and so on.
John Newtson (21:22):
I love that that's .
That's an interesting like wayto frame it, that they're using
their emotional intelligence onthat, which makes total sense
because there's this big elementof identity then in what they
buy, like I will buy for aperson who's this, but I
wouldn't buy from right.
Mark Ford (21:37):
but I'm glad you said that because there's a
corollary, contrary corollary tothat, which is that in in every
and this is more for publishersand for copywriters but but
within every group of 10,000 or100,000 or a million subscribers
, financial news subscribersthere's a portion, there's
(22:00):
always a proportion of them thatare like crazy traders and want
to make crazy money, and theyexist in every segment.
I mean, you know, I remember,you know my partner, bill Bonner
.
He writes, just, you know,everything is doom and gloom and
(22:22):
I remember seeing he wrote oneparticularly you know gloomy
piece about how you should justnever get near stocks and
they're all terrible.
And then right after that, likeright in the middle of it was
like a little ad for anotherservice and the ad said, like
how to make a thousand timesyour money or whatever, and I
(22:42):
looked at the numbers and thatthing was exploding.
People were, you know, theytook a pause from hearing why
they should never invest instocks.
Now, not all of them, obviously,a tiny percentage of them.
So you do need to remember that, as a business person,
publisher, that there are alwaysgoing to be some people that
(23:02):
just are in it for the biggestpromises and yeah, but so
they'll be there for you.
But my general point is I thinkyou shouldn't be there for you.
But I my my general point is Idon't.
I think you shouldn't belooking for them on the front
end.
You know, look for the peoplethat are going to stay with you
because they appreciate yourperspective, your approach, your
(23:23):
view of the world well, I thinkthat's.
John Newtson (23:25):
it's such an interesting thing because the
because of where I'm at in thepublishing, I don't have your
view of as many businesses,obviously, but with the
conference we see lots of smallpublishers, we see lots of small
trader educators.
I know a lot of your publishersand then when I see the
(23:45):
businesses that are stable inrevenue versus the ones that
might kind of have like a bigrun-up and then they disappear,
that front end piece is verymuch different.
It's the the more aggressivethat copy is on the front, it
seems more volatile to customersabsolutely, yeah, 100.
Mark Ford (24:04):
and and not just the piece itself but the franchise
itself.
The first, uh, the firstsuccessful package I wrote was
for an investment club.
This was back in I don't knowwhat in the early 80s.
It was the first promotion Iever wrote and it turned into
(24:25):
what's now the oxford club,which is one of the um, the
publishing franchises, and thathas never really changed from
that first promotion I wrote.
Well, it's changed in a sensethat when I wrote it I was
making stuff up.
Now it's actually real.
They really do have thesemansions all over the place and
(24:47):
these great people behind them.
I was writing about what I wouldlike it to be and it's so solid
their franchise that it's veryhard to write a promotion for
them that doesn't have somesolidity.
And of all the franchises, thegroup publishing groups and
(25:10):
investment side in Agora thathas had it hasn't had the
greatest growth, but it's it'shad the most steady growth,
continued growth, and there's alot to be said for that because
it's it's.
You know it's great fun to gofrom, you know, a hundred
million dollars to $300 million,but when you drop back down to
$80 million, boy, that's not funat all.
John Newtson (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, and it is.
The Oxford Club is one of theones that I feel like, because I
remember the Oxford Club.
They were a big, they were oneof the more successful ones back
when you did way back withEarlier to Rise, when you did a
marketing conference, like aone-time marketing conference
that you sold out to the space,and I remember the Oxford Club
(25:53):
was one of the ones.
I think at the time theymight've been 60 million, I
think they said, or somethinglike that yeah, yeah, and
they're still here and a lot ofpublishers came up after them
and have disappeared, butthey're still stable, that's
right, yeah, yeah.
Mark Ford (26:08):
Yeah, so that's again , you know, if you're a
copywriter, that this stuff maynot be as important to you.
But if you you know, if youdecide to get into the business
of, you know, sellinginformation, then it is
important to know.
I mean, what you're alwayslooking for is lifetime value,
and that you know your lifetimevalue means it comes from, uh,
(26:32):
from years of relationship, andyou know your customers won't
stay with you unless you'regiving them value.
Eventually they'll.
You can fool them once, you canfool them twice, but after that
they're pretty much gone right,yeah, so let me.
John Newtson (26:47):
Let me switch a little bit because I know we
don't have too much time, but,um, the the kind of direction of
the space going mainstream, andthat has to do with the fact
that we've been in a bull marketof a self-directed investor for
probably close to 10 years andthat's going to continue.
I think it's a generationaltransformation of how people
(27:09):
choose to invest.
What do you think the directionof the industry is?
Mark Ford (27:15):
Well, yeah, it's a good question.
I don't know the answer.
There are times when I thinkthat we're at the end of our
industry.
Honestly, I think that thereare between.
Well, I would just say, becauseof the general, the way the
(27:38):
media has developed, the accessto alternative information, the
ability of regulators to squashthings, you know, I've seen
other sectors of our generalindustry disappear and sometimes
(28:04):
I think this may be true to us.
However, so far it hasn'texcuse me, so far it hasn't
happened.
Generally, what happens is yougo into slumps and things change
, and and so you know, I'mcertainly not going to give up
on it, but it is different, verydifferent.
The fundamental way that it'sdifferent from back in the
(28:26):
direct mail days is was apparentto me 20 years ago, which is
that was apparent to me 20 yearsago, which is that and this is
something we introduced to Goraa couple of years ago to be a
good business today, you'regoing to have to be.
Authenticity and transparencyare key.
You can't pretend to be abusiness that you're not,
(28:50):
because everything istransparent today.
People will find out who youreally are and what you've done,
and so on, and all these thingsare on the permanent record.
So, yeah, so on the one hand, itmakes for a lot more
competition because everybodycan see what everybody else is
(29:12):
doing and you know, likeconstantly and make adjustments
and knock each other off, and sothere are many, many more
players than there ever were inour business.
Also, the barrier of entry issmaller business and also the
(29:32):
barrier of entry is smaller.
But also because of all thatcompetition, uh, the, the cost,
the media cost, is high, youknow it's it's like at optimal,
it's kind of at peaking levelsall the time, because you've got
a bunch of it's like um beingon worth avenue or on, uh, fifth
avenue, new york, you know, a,you can make money there, but
the rent is so high you've gotto have really good game, and so
(29:54):
I think that's kind of where weare right now.
So it's a lot of pressure andyou know, I do think people,
businesses will survive, butthey're the guy you're going to,
since you need transparency andyou don't have authenticity.
You have to have somethingsolid to sell, something that
(30:16):
does distinguish you in some way, and it's, I think it's going
to be very hard for the wannabesand the you know, to the people
that are knocking each otheroff to just they'll have a
moment and then it'll be, it'llbe gone.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion at all.
John Newtson (30:34):
No, you did Absolutely.
I think that that there's twothings that that first, I have a
comment, which is the mediacost issue, I feel like is
something that too many peopleare ignoring right now, because
I see so I see a lot.
This is the first time we'vebeen running the Financial
Marketing Summit for almost 10years now.
This is the first time in thehistory of the industry, as far
(30:54):
as I know, where we have mediaagencies that primarily were
serving our space.
I have more media agencies inthe 25 to $70 million range than
I have publishers.
That means that, obviously,media agencies are fundamentally
a parasitic revenue model.
Right, they're only as big as apercentage of their customer
base, and their customer basenow includes a different mix of
(31:19):
people where we have actualissuers, like the reggae and
crowdfunding space that isreliant on either a newsletter
covering the issue or amarketing campaign, and I've
seen guys doing a reggaecampaign and they're spending
$10,000 a day on Facebook tofill it.
And so the media just from thatone segment, competition is
(31:43):
coming.
Then we see some of these otherplatforms that are coming in
and trying to go after theinvestor.
Um, there's a lot more moneycoming into the space, which is
click competition.
So I think you're right likethat.
You have to have a higher levelof game just to stay alive yeah
, yeah, and there's some goodand some bad about the.
Mark Ford (32:03):
The good is that um, uh, in other words.
In other words, what'shappening is we're starting to
compete with actual moneymanagement firms, hedge funds
and so on, and the difference,the problem there is that for us
(32:23):
in the newsletter industry, ahigh lifetime value for a
customer might be $600 or $700.
For them, a modest is $5,000.
So that's a lot more money tospend to acquire a customer.
And the bad news is for us isbecause, you know, obviously we
(32:45):
would need to figure out how toget our lifetime value up a lot
higher.
We would need to figure out howto get our lifetime value up a
lot higher.
But the good news is that whenyou have all that money to spend
, you don't have to have suchcrazy copy.
Fisher Investments is all overthe place.
With very modest initialentries.
You can have a much longercustomer onboarding, whatever
(33:08):
they call it today, and so Ithink that's generally good for
the business.
But again, like it's to me,it's authenticity and
transparency.
If you don't have a somethingyou know, an actual business
product that is really good andsolid and has value, then it's
(33:33):
like you're trying to build abusiness on swamp water.
It's just more than ever andyou need that, and that's why I
feel kind of generallyoptimistic.
I guess I'd put it this way Ourbusiness as we know it probably
will disappear, but people thatare smart in our business and
understand the fundamentals willcontinue and reshape their
(33:56):
business into whatever it needsto be, and whether that means
offering alternative services,offering.
You know, at Agora we'reoffering a lot more technical
solutions for, like family stoplosses and all kinds of things
like that that people enjoy.
So we'll see how that goes, butI generally feel optimistic
about it.
John Newtson (34:17):
Yeah, I think that there's definitely the
opportunity with the tools kindof inside of the business.
But I also see because, if Ilook at other areas of financial
and how they're kind of movinglike reaching towards us, in the
sense of you have platforms,you have VCs out there who are
trying to do media and contentand really, like I did a big
(34:37):
presentation for FMS last yearon all these different trends
and one of them is how all thebusiness development functions
and capital raise functions intraditional finance are actually
merging with a content mediamodel and so as we see that
happen more, I think that one ofthe things that I've definitely
(34:57):
learned from you guys about thenewsletter industry is that
it's focused a lot of times onalternative ideas, fringe ideas,
early ideas, things that youcan't get in the mainstream, or
else why would you pay for it?
Ideas, early ideas, things thatyou can't get in the mainstream
, or else why would you pay forit?
As the power of having anaudience and the power of your
audience is unrivaled in theretail space.
I mean, I know people out therewho are trying to.
(35:20):
They're so eager to find a wayto get a company into your
ecosystem because for arecommendation on an earned
media basis that because itcould drive two, three $400
million in volume for theirpublic company.
And I think that with that kindof power, I think that we're
moving into an area like thebusiness is going to change, but
(35:41):
it's going to be more like arevenue strategy change that
we're going to start to seewhere, taking the worldview and
the ability to engage us and theinvestor and merging it with
some of these VC models and orpartnering with accelerators and
groups where you can createsomething, where they can
attract a more unique deal flowright Companies and now the
(36:03):
franchise has unique earlyopportunities because I've
talked to a lot of capitalmarkets players has unique early
opportunities because I'vetalked to a lot of capital
markets players guys who arepretty sophisticated, a couple
of guys who have multiplebillions in income themselves
from taking companies public andwhat they're telling me is that
the capital market process haskind of changed so much because
so many of these brokers thatthey used to rely on have moved
(36:24):
to asset management models thatthey want publishers to come in,
work with them to earlier andget customers into deals way
earlier than they ever wouldhave allowed them before,
because there isn't anybody inthat spot that could fill that
piece of the capital life cycle.
And so just we have one guy.
(36:45):
He was Dr Ghosh, he was thehead of macroeconomics for
mubadala, which is the uaesovereign wealth fund.
He invests like um, he workedat bridgewater, raised a billion
or something like that for forthem, um, and he's all about
impact investing and alternativeenergy and things like that and
(37:05):
he gets chunks of of uh dealflow from companies that are
raising with Bill Gates's familyoffice or his breakthrough
energy, his VC fund, and he'ssaying, well, maybe I could find
relationships in the publishingworld to slice off pieces of
these deals that are getting inat the same time as those guys.
We're talking about some of themost sophisticated investors in
(37:27):
alternative energy, and if hecould find a publishing partner,
he would love to be able totake that and say, hey, now we
have customers who can co-investat the same time as these
traditionally A-level investors,because that capital power all
of a sudden is there, and so Ibelieve fundamentally that that
(37:49):
is one of those areas that we'regoing to see.
Mark Ford (37:52):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're right.
We have one of our oursuperstars is very much, you
know working towards that asbusiness.
I mean for for Bill and for meit's it brings us away from what
we, what we're interested indoing, staying on the idea side
(38:13):
and staying behind the FirstAmendment and so on.
But I think you're probablyright.
It's just the logic of movingthat direction is so strong and
the the rewards are so evidentthat I I don't see how people
resist.
To tell you the truth, yeah,it's more of.
John Newtson (38:35):
It's more of a question of like, how do you,
how do you do it when you havesuch an established revenue
model and you know business thatyou don't want to put at risk
because you have relied on thefirst amendment business and so
it is a more complicatedenvironment, I think.
Mark Ford (38:48):
But Well, if you figure it out, let me know.
John Newtson (38:51):
We have a lot.
We've spent a lot of time andwe spend a lot of time talking
about it internally with oursmall group.
That's great.
There are some models thatwe've developed actually that I
think we're going to work reallywell.
Mark Ford (39:03):
Oh, I'm serious, Let me know.
John Newtson (39:05):
Oh yeah, no, I'd love to run them by you.
Probably not on a recorded callfor everybody, but Right,
probably not.
But no, I hate Mark.
I know you have to go here in aminute, so thank you so much
for taking the time.
I really enjoyed talking to you.
I just to reiterate, exceptthat I said in an email like
you've had a huge influence onme going back to you know, awai
(39:29):
earlier to rise like all yourbooks, when we started our
accelerator group, the firstthing that we did was we bought
copies of Ready Fire Aim foreverybody.
If you're going to build apublishing business like this is
this is like direct response,publishing 101.
Like you have to know thisstuff.
So that's good.
Mark Ford (39:49):
I'm glad to hear that .
Thank you, and if any of you,your readers, want to follow my
insightful advice on how topersuade your wife not to watch
the movie that she wants towatch with you and how to deal
with your bad eating habits,they can follow me at
(40:09):
markfordnet.
John Newtson (40:11):
Wonderful.
I'll post that link with this.
Thanks so much, mark.
All right, john Pleasure.
Thanks, bye.
Bye, take care Bye.
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