August 30, 2025 • 56 mins
Copywriter Chris Cimorelli joins me to talk about his latest promotion. This newsletter promotion generated $4.5 million in subscription sales in the first 24-hours, making it the #1 single sales day for a promotion at Agora over the past 7-years. It went on to sell $8.8 million in subscriptions over it's 5-day launch window.
FinPub Pro is produced by The Financial Marketing Summit, the #1 networking and marketing conference for financial newsletter publishers, trader educators, and digital financial media.
John Newtson, host and founder of The Financial Marketing Summit can be reached via LinkedIn at John Newtson
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Newtson (00:02):
All right, hey everyone.
So I'm start with.
A few years ago I had Mark Fordon here and it was in the
depths of FinPub's kind ofcrisis, when everybody was
pulling promos, when everyone,because of FTC stuff and things
were going south, and he saidsomething really kind of like
uncomfortable.
He said that he wasn't sure ifour model, meaning the Agora
(00:27):
model, really had a future,basically.
And then recently I heard arumor that after Chris
Cimorelli's latest promo, whichdid what $4.5 million on day one
and $8.8 million over the nextcouple of days there was a rumor
that Mark said something alongthe lines of this promo restored
(00:48):
his faith in our newslettermodel.
So my first question, chris, ishow does it feel to have
restored the faith of a verywealthy man in the model that
made him wealthy?
Chris Cimorelli (00:58):
It almost felt as good as putting up Agora's
best sales number in seven years.
It was my personal best.
It actually beat my personalbest day one number by by three
times and it honestly itsurpassed the expectations of
every single person at paradigmpress.
Um, we literally did a, a polllike um, you know, like a bet.
(01:20):
Um, within the, the entire,like Slack channel of you know,
the graphic designers and theproducers and the videographers
and the marketers and everyonewho was on this project, it's
like what do you think the dayone total is going to be?
One person guessed like 3.2,which was the highest mark, and
it did 1.2 million more thanthat.
So that felt spectacular.
(01:41):
And, yeah, I saw that emailcome through from Mark Ford,
which was pretty cool.
I've spoken with Mark a fewtimes over the years.
I'd like to catch up with himnext time I'm in Florida.
But, definitely it does feel,and there's something I want to
say that just you know it reallyis a team effort and it really
(02:04):
shows you what happens when youhave a well-oiled machine at
your company.
I'm going to be the last personto tell you that, like, the
copywriter is the most importantingredient, like, yes, the copy
is really important, but havinga team of very, very
professional, driven,fast-working people is the only
way that you can get those kindof numbers today.
John Newtson (02:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So just to back up for a second, everybody this here, if you
don't know him, is ChrisCimorelli.
He's more than just acopywriter, though.
He's clearly an awesomecopywriter and, like I said, put
up the best numbers in Agorapretty much in a very long
period of time really.
And you are also an editor,you're an analyst, yeah.
(02:47):
So let's back up before we diginto this promo, because there's
a lot of stuff to talk aboutwith this promo.
What's your background inFinbub?
Chris Cimorelli (02:54):
So I started with the Agora Companies in 2014
.
It's a bit of a funny story.
I was an English major incollege.
I wanted to be a teacher.
I loved those movies, like youknow, um to serve with love and
freedom, writers and my stuffand I wanted to save the world.
I had these grandiose visionsof of doing that and I ended up
getting a job in Baltimore Cityteaching in an alternative high
(03:17):
school and I left after threemonths because my students were
at a three grade, third gradereading level.
None of them had two parents inthe household.
It was an alternative highschool so it was like worse than
like the typical bad highschool in inner city.
It was actually completelyuntenable.
So here I am, fresh out ofcollege with an English degree,
living in Mount Vernon by Agora.
(03:38):
Don't know what Agora is.
Start looking for writingediting jobs and see this
advertisement for six figurecopywriter and I decided that's
what I wanted to do with my life.
I wanted to write for a livingbecause I loved writing again,
English major and money soundedgood, really good when you're
fresh out of college and shitout of luck and fresh out of a
job.
So I ended up applying to.
You know I mean almost morethan half a dozen positions.
(04:01):
They eventually threw me a boneand they're like hey, we're
hiring an editorial assistant atthe Sovereign Society in Delray
Beach, Florida, and by thispoint I'd moved back home to
Charleston, South Carolina, andI had no interest in moving to
Florida.
But I'm like I really want towork for this company and I just
want to get my foot in the door.
I want to write copy, I justneed to get my foot in the door.
(04:22):
I look at the Sovereign Societyand it ended up being perfect
timing going there when I didbut it was at the time you know
very much like I could guess Icould say this the redheaded
stepchild of Agora is doingmaybe $6 million a year.
It wasn't profitable.
We had this other division ofthat company called Dent
Research with Harry Dent, whichwas actually successful and
(04:43):
profitable.
But it was kind of a risk on mypart.
But it ended up being very,very fortuitous because a year
later we had a man step in whoended up becoming my copy mentor
for many years Aaron DeHogue,who grew Sovereign Society,
changed his name to Bandy Hill,grew it 2,000% in three years.
So I got to watch thatevolution and study under him,
and also very elite copywriterslike Angel Suarez.
(05:03):
And, of course, I was in theindustry at the same time that
guys like Jared Feintuck wereputting up $10 million with
every single promotion theywrote for Money Matt Press.
So everything worked out prettywell for me.
A lot of luck involved Wouldnever have figured out what
Agora was if I wasn't livingdown the street in Baltimore,
Maryland, 12 years ago, and I'mback in Baltimore today.
(05:25):
I decided to move back here soI could be close to the
headquarters operations ofParadigm Press, but so I mean,
I've been writing copy.
I ended up getting into copy in2016,.
Basically, I've put up I don'teven know what the number is
anymore it's 85 million maybe atthis point but I've always, as
a copywriter, really cared abouttrading and understanding the
(05:46):
financial markets.
I've made a lot of money.
I've lost a lot of money withmy own trading and I think
that's what makes me able towrite things like this promotion
, where I think when peoplewrite this, they can tell that
whoever wrote this has a really,really firm grasp of the
narratives behind the stocksthat were selected, and it just
requires that little bit ofextra insight that I have been
(06:10):
cultivating very intentionallyfor a number of years, to the
point now where I'm actually theanalyst on our microcap
newsletter with James Altucher.
I've been managing that productessentially for a year.
I pick most of the investmentson it.
I run them by him because I'mnot a Wall Street guy.
I never worked on Wall Street,I never managed money, I didn't
even have a finance degree I wasan English major but it's
(06:32):
actually turned out to be a very, very successful product and
the readers have responded to itvery well.
And I've now in the last yearin my personal trading account
I've made 1,000% gains 18different times in 18 different
trades.
So 1,000% gains, 18 differenttimes and 18 different trades.
So now we're launching a newproduct where it's just like a
swing for the fences, like gobig or go home, like speculative
options trading service, whereit's just like I have cracked
the 10X code.
I figured out the exactarchitecture of how 1,000% gains
(06:54):
happen.
I've done it 18 times in thelast year.
I've never been putting up hugeamounts of money, but I've made
hundreds of thousands ofdollars on these 18 trades,
never investing more than like3,300 bucks, I think was the
largest position size.
So for financial copywriters.
(07:14):
Something always occurred to methat was very strange.
I always thought it was strangehow many financial copywriters
I would talk to and they justput their money in an index fund
, just like have you no soul,have you no drive?
Do you know?
Desire to like lose money, totake risks and then figure out
the emotionality of that Cause.
That's, I think, what makes youreally really good.
Making money is good, but likesometimes when you lose money in
(07:36):
the market, like that's thebest teacher you can ever make
and that can be your catalyst towriting really, really, really
killer copy, because now you getit when you make a decision
about your money and then youscrew it up, which I've done,
like full disclosure I've done,I've made it back, but that's a
journey that really puts you inin the mind and heart and soul
(07:57):
of your subscriber now.
John Newtson (07:59):
So yeah, that's awesome.
So let's talk about this.
Well, actually that thatreminds me of some things that
you know I remember Portertalking talking about how, like
you know, he likes to to writethese dense promos, because he's
like, if you're an actualinvestor or trader, you want to
talk, you want the information,and if it's just, uh, if it's
(08:20):
super light on any type of meat,then what you really have, what
you're really getting, is thecustomer who is not a real
investor and that is not a greatcustomer.
He doesn't keep buying products, he doesn't stick around
because he's not really in themarkets, and so I think what you
have is actually you have thisand customers that you would see
(08:42):
a very obvious like breakup ofpeople who, like, actually are
in the markets and who are notstart to show up.
Not with everybody.
There's some writers who can doit, but I think there's a lot
of people who write things thatare much more well, just light.
Chris Cimorelli (09:02):
No, no, I know exactly what you're getting at
and this is something that we dovery intentionally at Paradigm
Press.
I mean, yes, most of my salesare still from Banyan by virtue
of the fact that I spent longerthere.
I've been in Paradigm for twoand almost two and a half years
now.
However, working for thatoperation has definitely helped
me up my game.
(09:22):
I mean, there are copywriterswith more sales than me.
I'm doing very well right now,obviously, but we always want to
have like a story and ourpublisher, matt Inslee.
He always says something likeit needs to be weird, there's
gotta be something weird aboutit.
Like he really, really caresabout that weirdness, that very
(09:43):
unique edge and specificity thatyou haven't seen anywhere else,
and just something that justbreaks up the pattern that just
you know, uh, just taps intosomething raw.
John Newtson (09:56):
I'd love that because to me that is classic,
like classic newsletter.
Right, the newsletter world wasalways like this weird dude in
his basement who had this crazyexperience maybe on Wall Street
and he figured something out andhe's taking a weird angle or
he's going after weird marketsor he's doing things that you
don't see elsewhere and likepart of the problem I think we
(10:19):
have is with trading andinvesting kind of being
mainstream, that a lot of whatwe say sounds like what you see
elsewhere now and it's very hardto stick out if you're not to
use his words weird.
Chris Cimorelli (10:34):
Well, we have gurus like James Altucher, who
is genuinely a weird guy, and Imean that as a compliment.
I've followed him for muchlonger than I've worked with him
.
I always found him very, veryinteresting.
He's a Renaissance man and Ithink that people see him and
they're just like.
This guy is clearly brilliantand he's strange as hell and
(10:57):
I've never seen anyone like him.
It's funny.
I was actually.
I took a trip to Germany with mychoir in June and,
unfortunately, we were launchinga promotion that I wrote for
james and someone on in my choirwas sitting behind me on the
plane while I'm like typingedits on the video, like on the
plane, like 3 am in the morning,30, 50, 000 feet in the air,
(11:21):
and then when we got off theplane, this this rachel is her
name she was like I have to knowwhat you were doing on your
computer because that guy onyour screen just looked so
strange and I've never seenanyone like him and that's
that's the point.
He's not buttoned up, hedoesn't wear a suit and tie, and
jim rickards is kind of thesame way.
Jim rickards has a kind of astrange quality to him.
(11:42):
This is like like he's very,very soft-spoken but like, very,
very elite but at the same timevery contrarian.
Like has a kind of likedarkness to him.
He's a very, very sweet manactually, but like his worldview
is very much like.
There are problems and I'm goingto make sure that you're aware
of them and I have knowledgeabout how bad it is that you do
(12:04):
not have Distinct characters.
Exactly that's what they are.
They're characters.
I have a bit of an actingbackground on the side.
I always liked doing theaterand choir and stuff like that.
You've got to have somethingdistinct.
If you're just buttoned up witha suit and tie at the same
point, it's like how are youreally so different than the
(12:26):
guys I see on CNBC?
Like I can, I can get that forfree.
I mean, I you know you pay $50a month for cable, but at the
same time it's just like I'malready.
I'm already paying for that.
John Newtson (12:35):
Right, yeah, yeah.
So let's, let's, let's talkabout this promo.
If I remember correctly, thiswas a kind of a all the editors
get together and do one bigpromo, so there's that element
of it.
But then there is the like youwant to walk through what the
(12:56):
thematic is of this promo andthen we can get into, kind of
like the what you did.
Chris Cimorelli (13:02):
Absolutely so.
And did we say?
What this ended up doing on dayone was like 4.4 million
dollars.
Yeah, that's what it started,yeah, yeah, and and you and you
have to understand that likethere is a certain architecture
to putting up a number like that.
So I mean, it's really startedwith a conversation in may or
where matt, our publisher, waslike we need another like three
editor summit for pmg, theparadigm mastermind, that's our
(13:25):
all-in, basically service, whereit's just like for the price of
one backend, you get access toour top three guys.
And some people were pitchingwhat they thought the best idea
would be.
Some people wanted to make itabout energy and electricity,
because utility bills are goingup and AI is very, very hungry
for power, and that was like anidea that like they could all
(13:47):
comment on, and I was like Ijust don't think electricity is
really the right thing and likethis is May, so it's just like
that.
That trade war is still very,very much a hot topic and I'm
like I think that's the topic.
I think that Trump has nowrevealed in the last few weeks
that like everything is aboutChina, everything comes back to
China, and it's just sort ofbacking into this narrative and
(14:09):
we don't reveal China untilmaybe 30, 40 minutes into the
promotion.
But it's basically this ideathat we're about ready to enter
a new season, even a new age.
In America we don't call itgolden age because that's just a
term that's out there but it'sthis idea that you know, we have
three guys who havecollectively, through their
(14:30):
independent research, allarrived at the same conclusion.
So that's what we're holdingthis all-in summit because
historically, when the three ofthese guys align, magic can
happen.
You know it's how they pickedPalantir Technologies.
You know, in late 2020, early2024.
You know, in January 2024, theyear it became the number one
stock in the S&P 500.
It's how they picked MPMaterials.
(14:51):
Before, like a couple of them,like James's option service had
like a 900% gain on MP Materials, the pick was something called
USAR.
That's the ticker USA RareEarths and it's like MP
Materials, a rare earth metalscompany.
Mp Materials is the only rareearth manufacturer in the
(15:13):
country.
Usar is more similar to JimRickards' birthright thesis,
which, if you're listening to afinancial newsletter podcast,
you would probably know whatthat promotion is.
But it's this idea that Trumpis unleashing the $150 trillion
secret trust fund or birthrightof minerals.
You know oil, gold, silver,copper, natural gas, that we
(15:34):
have uh on us land, and so thiscompany is more aligned with
that thesis than something likemp materials, which is already
producing the metals.
Usa rare earths owns, uh, thelargest rare earth site outside
of China, and it's notprofitable yet because there's
not a mine yet, it's not set upmine, they just own the mineral
(15:55):
rights.
So it's one of those birthrightcompanies.
So you start with this idea thatthey're all in on the same idea
and it's at the center ofAmerica's biggest transformation
in 50 years and it touchesevery single major theme that's
going on in the market right now.
Because what does rare earthstouch?
Well, technology, because youneed rare earths and technology.
So it's at the center of, like,the ai revolution.
It's also at the center of, youknow, reshoring, you know
(16:16):
american manufacturing of, ofreclaiming, you know energy and
mineral sovereignty andunleashing the birthrights.
Um, and there was like two otherthings.
But it's just like going downthis list which is like, hey,
all of these hot, hot topicsthat you see in the news that
you've heard from us, there'sone idea, all three of them have
come to it, and this one stockwe predict could go up 1,494% by
(16:41):
this time next year.
How do we get to that number?
Very simply, you take thecompany's market cap and then
you figure out like how manyminerals that the company
actually have and it cap andthen you figure out like how
many minerals of the companyactually have, and it turned out
like the best estimate I sawwas like 22 billion dollars.
So it's like a one point to onepoint.
So you just go to percentagecalculatorcom 1494.
(17:01):
Now you have a very unique,very specific number that feels
real.
It's not just saying it's gonnago up a thousand percent, like
anyone can say.
That doesn't seem like a baseanything.
You need a specific number.
So that's how we got that.
But then it starts with jimrecords, because of course he's
the one who's brought in themost fronted names of the last,
you know, six months and he'slike this story that we're about
to talk about.
Yes, it does have to do with mybirthright, pieces I've shared
(17:22):
with you, but in a way it'sbigger because this impacts the
core of america itself.
Then it goes to james and andit's like James basically says
what Trump is planning right nowcould literally double the size
of the US stock market.
And there's one investment youneed to own.
It's the same investment we'veall put our finger on that is
(17:45):
really at the center of this bigtransformation.
We call it America 2.0, whichis just a term that just ripped
off from an old Banyan promotionthat Aaron DeHoe wrote.
It's just a good term, but alsothat was a manufacturing idea,
that promotion you know back inthe day.
And then it gets to Enrique, thethird guy, who's, you know, not
(18:06):
as well known to our file, buthe's got serious street cred.
He managed over a billiondollars on Wall Street.
So he's the only guy on ourfile who can say that they're
like oh, we got like a $4billion fund manager.
That's pretty freaking hot.
And then he gets up and heshows this chart of America in
1990.
And it shows by state theaverage employer by sector, and
(18:29):
of course it was manufacturing.
Two thirds of the country wasthis one color in 1990.
And then you fast forward totoday and it shows you that in
three quarters of the countrythe top like highest average
employer per state is healthcare.
So now you go to this like whoa,like we went from a country, a
real country, a proper country,a first world country that made
(18:52):
things that you know employedpeople in high paying jobs where
they had function and purposeand actually saw the product of
their work, to a country thattakes care of sick people and we
really suck at doing that andyet that's our primary function
now.
So now it's like you've really,like, brought an emotional
charge to this.
We're like you're kind ofpissed off, but also like you
(19:12):
understand that there's hope atthe center of this.
And even if you don't likedonald trump, we don't make this
about trump.
Really.
We just make it about, likethis policy in this inevitable
shift in dynamic that we'retalking about.
So so now you've got the threeof them.
They've each made their pitchabout, like, why this thing
matters, and then jim comes backin and reveals we're talking
about china.
And then you back into the rareearth thing.
(19:34):
But it's also like china, youknow, like their economy's
literally gone up 10 000 overthe last 50 years.
So 50 years is a big theme here.
What happened 50 years ago?
We?
We basically started, you know,uh, offshoring our
manufacturing center.
China's manufacturing center isfive trillion trillion a year
roughly, and you know we get 80%of our pharmaceuticals, 90% of
(19:54):
our antibiotics, you know, and,of course, like 90% of our rare
earth metals which we need, andall the advanced technology,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah blah, and from there
the rest of the promotion iscake.
John Newtson (20:05):
That's like half the promotion though I love that
, so that.
So the birthright piece is kindof the weirdness on the front
yeah, I guess you could say it's.
Chris Cimorelli (20:13):
I don't know if it's the weirdness because it's
unexpected, I guess, except forjim's file yeah, yeah, I guess
for people who are not familiarwith that thesis, it would be
unexpected.
It's kind of like putting themin familiar territory, so it's
like touching base with, likehey, where we've been.
But it's also just one of theseideas that's very, very easy to
articulate to a cold reader,because it's just like oh, ok,
(20:37):
yeah, I know we have a lot ofminerals and I guess I've heard
that Trump wants to unleash this, and you guys put up this big
gain already and you foundsomething that you're saying is
50 times bigger, so it has 50times more of these elements.
But then from there, you know,after the all-in pick, which is
one of five stocks we pitch,they each have their own and Jim
pitches an AI drone company,james pitches an AI automation
(20:58):
factory company, and thenEnrique pitches an AI power
company, because we're going toneed and that's where the
electricity thesis comes backinto this, because it's an
important element to the storybut it was only a piece of it.
And then there was a finalall-in piece at the end that's
worked with 30, 40, 50, 100large companies over the years.
It's basically a manufacturinggiant, united states, that no
(21:19):
one knows by name, right?
Um?
So that's how the architectureof of this worked and it was a
very it's a two-hour promotion,essentially hour an hour and 40
minutes Very, very rich indetail, packed with story, lots
of emotional elements to it,like America and feel good and
also Trump, but also AI, butalso minerals, so it's got
something for every singleperson.
John Newtson (21:42):
And once you put those three guys, they each have
their own unique take wherethey're showing their own
individual side of themselvesand the way they approach the
markets then also like it buildsinto this, just like unit, it's
like yeah and that and that Ithink about that, um, that
comparison of like 1990 to todayand the move from manufacturing
(22:04):
to to health care, because whenyou see it like you say there's
an emotional thing, there's athere's, there's an emotional
part, but it's also like there'sa paradigm, like you know what
I mean.
It makes something that vaguefeeling that people have about
what's happened to our economyseem very concrete and it just
putting those two up next toeach other by itself creates a
narrative.
Chris Cimorelli (22:24):
Yeah, right, because we've been frogs in
boiling water for so long.
It's like we understand there'ssomething, we went wrong
somewhere, but you don't reallythink of it, and I just made
sure to put this into very, veryclear terms where it's just
like these free trade deals weredumb.
And just do the side by sidecomparison of China's economy 50
years ago Ours was 10 timeslarger, and then we show what it
(22:46):
is now and it's like there'sjust two thirds the size of ours
, and it's all because of thisone thing.
And now Trump is reversing theone thing.
It's very, very simple, butit's also just like you can't
really argue with it.
That is the truth.
Like that is where we have been.
That's why people have votedfor Trump, love him or hate him,
(23:07):
and but then you bring that upas well.
It's just like it doesn'tmatter how you feel about Trump.
You know this is happening fora reason.
You know exactly why, if you'rean intelligent, reasonable
person, which I think anyfinancial newsletter subscriber
is, or at least thinks they are.
John Newtson (23:20):
We all think we are right, like we all think we
are, but also like that kind oflike paradigm shift when you see
things like that, like has areally like, a really strong.
It's not just an emotionalimpact, it's, I think of it as,
like this moment when you havemoments like that in your promo,
all of a sudden you'veexplained the world in a new way
(23:41):
that makes everything else makesense to somebody, and so like
they're suddenly really open andengaged to your message,
because it's like holy shit, Inever thought about that, and
that moment is like I got tohear what else they're going to
say.
But also like this is theperson who made me see that
(24:01):
thing that I didn't see, andit's impacted me so much that,
like I'm in on this conversationnow.
Chris Cimorelli (24:05):
And once you understand it, then you
understand this is literally thebiggest story.
This is the only story andobviously, if we're reversing 50
years of damage, that hascreated a five trillion dollar a
year business for china.
There's crap, tons of moneyit's about to pour into the usa.
There's this recurring ideathat, like, uh, morgan stanley
(24:27):
said this is a 10 trilliondollar opportunity, and then our
guys are like this is a 10trillion dollar opportunity and
then our guys are like this isnot 10 trillion dollars because
trump has already guaranteed 10trillion dollars in investments.
You think that we're done?
We're not done.
We're nowhere close.
That's from like a handful ofcompanies and actually sovereign
nations that have agreed to putup 10 trillion dollars in
investment in the us because,guess what, they don't want to
(24:48):
work with tiny either.
They're like we're gettingscrewed over by them.
They interfere with ourelections.
They house put up $10 trillionin investment in the US Because,
guess what, they don't want towork with China either.
They're like we're gettingscrewed over by them.
They interfere with ourelections, they house cyber
criminals.
They do this, that and theothers.
It's like we kind of prefer towork with the US.
Actually, it's just likethey're bullies too, but at
least they're not evil sometimesno-transcript.
John Newtson (26:02):
The discord and I think we've had it separately
offline before um is that inthis, especially in 22, like
when, after the dip, we'vetalked about this thing, that
for such a long time we hadcopywriters who came up, you
know, during the longest bullmarket in history that had, you
know, crypto come in, and youlook back to all those promos.
(26:24):
I don't have that document thathas like the lead headlining,
lead complexes from all thepromos that did like 10 million
and above, right on the back end, and all of those during that
peak period of, like you know,2016 to like 20, they were all
profit centric.
It was a new mechanism on ablack box system with thousands,
(26:44):
all this stuff right.
And one of the conversationsthat we were having in the dark
part of FinPub was that it'sgoing to take a while for
writers to adjust to the oldschool idea of an investment
thesis and building aninvestment thesis and not just
selling potential gains.
And that was part of the FTCissues too, because an investing
(27:06):
thesis promo is not going totrigger things in the same way
as hey, this is going to make.
Look at these thousand percentgains that are all cherry picked
, right.
And so to me when you talk aboutthis like this, is that idea
Exactly Like?
(27:27):
You've built this amazinginvestment thesis that plugs
into the zeitgeist of the times.
It's dense with information.
How long was it?
You said it was like an hourHour and a half An hour, 40
minutes Dense, dense informationGoing into individual stocks.
We have a big macro thesisGoing down to the individual
stocks from all the differenteditors and it's not a make
1,000% because we have thissecret system that does X and Y
(27:50):
or whatever, and you make athousand percent because we have
this secret system that does Xand Y or whatever and you make a
bunch of money.
It's a real like, engaginginvestment thesis.
That like is a promo and thatagain is like.
This is classic to me FinPub.
This is like the thing thatmade FinPub great to begin with.
Chris Cimorelli (28:06):
I think I I I love the way that you're
articulating this because youknow it was funny, because when
I started writing copy, it wasin that very bubbly territory.
Like I basically startedwriting sales copy a transition
from editorial in 2016.
And that was like the start oflike the real bull market and
that's when, just like greedtook over over and and as I was
(28:28):
starting my copy career, I thinkthat was probably good for me,
because I saw some of the thingsthat people were writing in
2015 that were still very muchthat kind of classic finpub
style and like this is socreative and like I don't know
how they came up with this.
Now that I've really likeingratiated myself in the
financial markets for 10 years,it's very easy for me to come up
(28:50):
with a story like this.
That central stock was my idea.
I recommended it in our otherservice that I managed with
James, but I was like that isthe pick for this.
It touches all of these guys.
The only person I would havebeen worried about rejecting it
would have been James, and we'dalready recommended it in
another service that I manage.
So that's where this is.
(29:15):
This was a lot of.
Also, this is just a lot of funto write, like, I have to say,
because it is just this rich andcompelling idea that's
satisfying in its own right.
And something we haven't talkedabout is that we really made
this like an event for thereaders where they didn't leave
feeling like they got pitchedsomething, Cause that's the
(29:37):
worst feeling in the world,Right, that just happened to me,
you know, the other day.
It's just like I I sawsomething that I wanted and I
set up a call and then, likethey're just going through like
30 minutes of of questions andit's this, you know's this sales
architecture, where it's justlike they're asking you
questions to get you to say yes,I'm just like.
I really would just love tojust make this person shut up
(29:59):
and be like I have $85 millionin sales, I know exactly what
you're doing.
Can we just get to the point?
I'm a warm client.
Let's just cut to the chase.
I should just say that I shouldjust say that, John, but for I
should just say that I shouldjust say that.
But um, for this, we, we gavethem a free report.
The second they signed up forthe hot list.
I think they had to enter theirphone number as well, but it
was basically like anatomy of asix thousand percent gain and
(30:21):
that was the peak return of thatmp materials, that rare earth
options trade that we hadrecommended like a month or two
prior to this promotion goingout.
And so it's just like, well, Ikind of want that report like
anatomy of a 6,000% gain.
It's like sure, I want to knowwhat the anatomy of a 6,000%
gain is.
How do you do that?
How did you do that?
So they get that for free.
(30:43):
But then when they come to thepromotion, it's just like if you
stay to the end, you get thisother report and it names
projects like Northern DynastyMinerals, you know, owns the
Pebble Project in Alaska.
It also names what else did wegive away?
I mean stuff like ProjectColossus with like Elon Musk,
you know.
It's just like obviously likeTesla's playing on that, but
(31:05):
it's like so is Dell, so is AMD,so it's those kind of like big,
like physical, literal projectslike lithium mines, things like
that, Structurally, the onesthat you you give away directly
and you really do, those comefirst before you tease some
things at the end.
No, because they don't get thatpromotion until after.
But we don't.
We don't suggest that there'sanything in that report that
(31:27):
like they've got to have, likethat there's anything in that
report that like they've got tohave like it's interesting
enough, where it's just like Ikind of want that report.
But I think it's sort of likeunderstood that like you're not
getting this one big, frigginawesome idea.
It's like I want the one bigfriggin awesome idea.
It's like I appreciate yougiving me something.
And I wrote that report.
I picked those 10 projects, Ipicked the 10 companies like you
(31:48):
could invest in and it'sattached to them.
So it's just like so it's gotgood value because you've got an
analyst who's actually pickingthis stuff and analyst slash
copywriter who's doing it.
So anyone who got their reportwas like oh, this is kind of
cool and it's like it's got amap.
It shows like where theprojects are.
It's like literally it's like aroadmap.
So doing that does two thingsit boost conversions because it
(32:10):
gets them to stay to the end andit just gives them that feeling
just like like oh, I feel good,I don't feel pitched, because
you gave me a compelling storyand you're offering me something
for free, which also boostsconversions, but it also doesn't
piss people off, which is goodfor future conversions as well.
John Newtson (32:28):
Nice, and so I'd love for every copywriter who's
listening to hear, listen tothat really closely, especially
the ones who are kind of likestruggling right now.
Was it you that was telling methat, like a couple weeks ago,
that you're hot.
Chris Cimorelli (32:42):
Someone was asking if you're hiring
copywriters and you're like,yeah, we had this conversation,
or this does happen to me a lotwhere, like I have, have people
like dropping my, my dms andlinkedin and they ask me are you
hiring at paradigm?
And it's a copywriter, andsometimes it's copywriters I've
worked with like goodcopywriters and I, I, I I'd have
to tell them.
It's like you're asking thewrong question, the, the, the.
(33:06):
The right way to do this iswhat do you want to write about?
And sometimes I can't get ananswer, john, which is
concerning.
It's just like, why do you want?
Why would you want to writehere?
I mean, I understand like, like, yeah, paradigm's like the best
in the industry right now, likewe're putting the best numbers.
But I can also tell you I'vehad some promotions.
(33:26):
Can I swear on here, john?
Am I allowed to swear on here?
I've had some promotions.
Apparently I'm completely shit.
The fucking bed.
Like I had a promotion that didlike a quarter of a million
dollars, which, especially atparadigm, sucks, it sucks.
It was like one of the worstthings I ever wrote and I wrote
that at paradigm.
Actually, no, no, funny story.
The first thing I did atparadigm, um, like after I
(33:50):
transferred from fromanyan Hilland went there, it was a backend
for Jim Rickards and I wrotethis idea.
Matt didn't like it, our copychief, patrick, they didn't like
it.
They're like we're going to dothis, we're going to do a live,
we're going to do Bill O'Reilly,we're doing it live, except
it's with Jim Rickards and itand it's going to be the
emergency banking summit andit's going to lead to this
(34:10):
landing page.
We're going to take some of thecopy of your book, put it on
that landing page.
John, this thing did $20,000.
It's my first promotion toParadigm.
It has a hot list in everythingit does $20,000.
And, to the credit of the teamthere, we got into a Zoom call
(34:31):
like this the next day and I waslike this can't happen again.
And they were like you're right, it can't happen again.
And so on the next promotion,they basically gave me free
reign and that promotion didokay.
It ended up doing $800,000,$900,000 over the next year,
which is fine, but where was Igoing with this?
(34:52):
Yeah, you have to have an idea.
You can't just be like, hey, Iwant to write for you.
It's like why, what is youridea?
Or it'll be like, well, whatservices need some TLC?
And it's just like, honestly,if we have services that have
TLC, we'll just won't marketthem.
We'll market whatever is hotand fresh and we'll keep them on
the back burner because it hasgood track record and servicing
(35:13):
our readers and it might bemarketable someday, but it's not
now, so we're just not going toworry about it.
We're going to market what wecan market, because we can make
$100 million a year doing thatand keep that stuff for later,
so it's what is your deal?
John Newtson (35:25):
What you?
Chris Cimorelli (35:26):
want to write about?
What do you want to write about?
What do you care about?
This is what I'm talking about,john.
There's so many financialcopywriters who don't even have
like stocks that they care about.
And don't talk to me abouttesla.
I don't want to hear abouttesla.
Shut up, shut up, shut up.
John Newtson (35:40):
Have another stock that you care about besides
tesla yeah, and that, so thatthis is where that whole deal
like this is.
Again, this is classicnewsletter and like right now,
this period in time, the entireworld is shifting right, like
the whole geopolitical order ischanging, which then means the
entire economic system ischanging the supply chain,
(36:01):
everything is changing right andit's a newsletter writer's
market.
If you, if you love big ideas,if you love like the impacts of
those torn through, like, likemarkets and portfolios and
everything.
It's a fascinating fucking timeright to write and talk about
markets.
It's one of the mostfascinating times probably since
like, yeah, like it's back toclassic.
(36:34):
You know, I came up underclayton make peace and he was
one of the you know last likethe bridge direct mail to you
know copywriters to hear, and Iremember like telling all the
stories about direct mail andwhat they would, him and
bensavenga and they were like,yeah, they would have people
write, hit them up and say, hey,we need a package.
But just as often he'd be likeI have this idea that I need to
write and I'm going to findsomeone to pay me for it and he
(36:54):
would pitch it to them.
And that's the world we're in.
Is that like there should bethings that you're just like.
Someone should be writing aboutthis.
I got to write about this, andpitching that to people is going
to get you more work than thekind of very meek like well,
what do you have?
Chris Cimorelli (37:11):
Well, and I have to say, john, you're
absolutely right.
So this idea, this all-insummit, as I said and I'm not
dunking on the leadership ofParahab at all They've helped me
up my game a lot.
When I submit shit copy, theytell me it sucks, and then that
pisses me off and I go fix itand I'm like you're right, and
then it's better and that's howI am making the sales, the money
(37:33):
I do.
But they weren't necessarilyeager about this.
Like china tariff trade idea,because and this actually became
a real issue what if trumpmakes a tweet where he's like I
love g, g and our best friends,we're selling the uS to China?
Obviously, he's not going tosay that.
(37:54):
But what if he's going to saywe have a deal, we worked it out
before this deadline.
And so the weekend after wefilmed this, a news article came
out that Scott Besson, treasurySecretary of the United States,
and officials from China aremeeting in Switzerland and
they're basically like we'regoing to do another 90-day pause
(38:17):
and we're like fuuuuuck.
But like we, like everyone, wasjust like well, we recorded
evergreen pickups, we're justgoing to do the evergreen
pickups.
And I was like guys, guys, Iknow that you're pissed off
right now, because you said thiswould happen and it's happening
(38:38):
.
However, I have a hunch, a very,very strong hunch, knowing
Donald Trump as well as I do.
I haven't even read the art ofthe deal, but I feel like I do
understand the man's psychologya little bit.
He's going to maximize hisleverage.
He's going to wait until theabsolute last minute to announce
officially that this next pauseis on the table, because that's
(39:01):
what the news shows.
It's like like Besson and thesetrade officials in China agreed
on this, but Trump gets thelast say.
Why would he be like, yeah,that's fine.
No, he's going to make Chinasweat.
How do I know this?
Because he's Donald Trump andthat's what he does.
You know anything about how tomake a deal and maximize
leverage, which he is theperfect person at doing?
(39:23):
That that's what he's going todo.
Sure enough, he did not waituntil August 12th, which was the
deadline.
He waited until about 3 pm, 2pm, august 11th.
3 pm 2 pm august 11th.
So we cut our deadline short bylike a day, by which point we'd
already made eight and a halfmillion dollars, so we're like
(39:44):
I'm fine there you go close thecampaign, we'll save an
evergreen version, roll it outwhen this next 90 days expires.
But you know, I but my point iswhat you said I had to really
fight for this idea and, totheir credit, when a copywriter
is really, really impassionedabout an idea and they make a
really, really compellingargument about why they need to
(40:05):
do it this way, they will listen.
And it does require just somelike, not putting your foot down
, not being a dick, but justmaking a really good argument.
And it's not a copy argument,it's like a business argument,
it's just like.
I think this is the rightbusiness move.
(40:25):
This is the story.
And is there a risk?
Yeah, there's a little bit of arisk, but that's also why we
got the reward that we did andand and.
When this dropped, like all this, like tension about like, will
Trump, you know, extend the?
But we'll only.
That's like in the news rightnow.
Like now it's this fever pitchand like, at the same time, like
(40:46):
he's announcing this deal withIndia and with Europe, et cetera
, et cetera, et cetera.
So now it's getting really hotagain.
It's in the news everyone'sgods are shining on you, exactly
exactly, or yeah, my, my, youknow, mother in heaven, or
something like that looking outfor me um so but it's like, yeah
(41:12):
, yeah, go ahead.
John Newtson (41:12):
No, no, I was just gonna say, like you know,
people have to remember, likethe, this is like the, the, the
elegance of Bonner calling thecompany the Agora, because it
was a market, which is Greekterm for market.
It's the marketplace of ideas,and so, like the ideas matter
and it felt, I think it feltlike for a while during that
boom that the ideas didn'tmatter so much, yeah, and that
(41:34):
you know it's a mean reversion.
We're back to the industry.
Ideas kind of ruled theindustry for a long time.
Chris Cimorelli (41:41):
And you know the reason that this business
really appeals to someone likeme, like I.
Again, english major college, Istudied Latin.
I understood what the Agora wasand I'm like that's a really
interesting and provocative andlike just intelligent way to
label and market your financialnewsletter business.
Because at the time I had nointerest in finance at all.
(42:04):
I I was very skinny, I didn'thave a muscle on my body, I was
just a dude who just likedreading books.
I'm like money, oh, it's sobase, it's so pretentious.
I was the pretentious one, butI was like there's something
interesting about the way thatthey're pitching this company
(42:24):
and I think that's why thebusiness is as successful as it
is, because it attracts themoney people, but it also
attracts these weird libertarianpeople.
John Newtson (42:34):
And then it attracts people like me who's
kind of like in the middlesomewhere, where it's like I'm
weird but I also like money well, that's the thing, is like this
point that's what's so greatabout it to me is like this like
there's this weird intellectualintersection of the economy,
politics, um, companies,investments, stock markets and
(42:55):
kind of like the you know thisconstant dance that's happening
between them, history like, butthe practical, like, you know,
you come up with a thesis or anidea or an opinion and you can
tell whether you made or lostmoney on it, right, and so
there's like this very in yourface, aggressive kind of aspect
(43:17):
to it.
Chris Cimorelli (43:18):
um, yeah, but it's.
It's also I mean this is gonnasound really hokey in a very
kumbaya, but it's really aboutthe search for truth is what I
think, and that's what gets backto that intellectual core of it
.
Money, like it or not, is at thecenter of everything, and I
mean, I think that working forthis company has made me,
honestly, a better voter.
It's also maybe just moresympathetic to the plights of
(43:40):
every person, no matter likewhat side they fall on the aisle
, because it all comes down tomoney and financial anxiety and
there's a lot of financialanxieties these days.
And finding that core truth,you know, with this big,
intelligent idea and not justshowing yourself as some used
car salesman in a shitty suit uh, really appeals to a lot of
(44:02):
people right now, and they'renot necessarily looking for
salvation, they're just lookingfor, like something, some
guiding light, something thatbrings some meaning to the chaos
of this moment.
And I think that we articulatedthat extremely well with this
(44:22):
promotion, where we basicallyrecapped 50 years of american
history and explained whyeverything's about to turn, and
it's like if you've been waitingfor something.
This is the thing, yeah yeah,that's, that's awesome.
John Newtson (44:41):
I love that I love that.
So what do you think is?
What do you think is missingfor some?
Not just promos, but it's.
There's a malaise in a lot ofpublishing businesses right now.
Chris Cimorelli (45:00):
There is, there still is.
Yeah, we've, we've gotten overhours and a lot of that is just
like the, the brain power, and alot of it is is the leadership
Um, matt is.
He's a workhorse, he really isUm and but he also is a nice guy
who knows how to have fun andhe's very, very human.
(45:23):
It's an interesting questionbecause I do see this a lot in
our business, where I still seea lot of those stale, safe
headlines and look, sometimesthat works, like Alex Green's
Next's, like next magnificentseven.
I still see ads for that andI'm like that's, that's working.
Don't stop it, don't fight it.
(45:46):
I mean, he does, you know, and Ithink the oxford club kind of
fits in that kind of like.
It's the oxford club.
It has that elegance in thatsense of elitism to it very
intentionally.
So that is kind of the demothat you want to serve with with
that, so, so I give them a passis what I'm trying to say.
(46:06):
And and obviously that's one ofthe most stable, you know,
businesses in in the industry.
But I I think that because it'shard, because I do see a lot of
copywriters who are just likeoh, I want to write about this
(46:27):
idea that I like.
Okay, does the market like it?
Is there any news?
No, don't write about it.
Find an idea that you like andlike it because it's relevant.
Find an idea that's relevant,that's different.
And but honestly, john, like Ispend a lot of time after hours
(46:48):
when the market's closed, whenbusiness is closed, just like
looking on my robin hood account, just like chart go a little
bit pretty, I'll scroll down,like what are the related stocks
to this stock.
I've never heard of this oneJust doing research which sparks
a thought, an original thought,and it's just poking around and
(47:10):
finding this stuff, organically, researching stocks, reading
Something's going to come to you.
But you have to have theseconversations with your peers in
your business and it can beoutside of your company too Just
someone who cares about theseconcepts, and just have these
conversations until that sparkcomes to you.
But you need to have thosepeople.
(47:30):
No man is an Island.
There's no copy cave.
Get out of your stupid copycave because you're writing
shitty copy inside of it.
You think it's brilliantbecause it's you and you're in
love with yourself and you lovethe way you look in the mirror,
but actually it's not that great.
I had the same problem everyfirst draft.
I'm like this is the best thingI've ever written.
I submit it and they're likethis has a lot of problems.
(47:52):
I look at at it.
I'm like you're right, I waslike drunk last night, like or
something.
I wasn't drunk, I was on, butit's something like that.
Have conversations.
Have conversations with peoplewho don't just care about money
and about the business but aboutthe ideas, intelligent people,
and that's an example of likethat's something Matt is very
good at, matt very good at thebusiness.
(48:13):
But also just like we have aSlack channel called YOLO Trades
and it's just us beingdegenerates and being like I
want to buy this.
This stock looks like it wantsto go up, let's go.
Like that's the attitude,that's the vibe, but it's just
like we've got a little bit ofdiscretionary income that we
want to waste and gamble becauseit's fun.
(48:34):
Right, like you've got to havethe fun, you've got to have,
have fun, have fun.
That's it.
That's it.
That's the trick, john justhave some damn fun, enjoy the
business because it's sofreaking cool and and surround
yourself with people who areexcited about it.
You know as well.
That's it.
I think it's the secret wisewords from chris simirelli.
John Newtson (48:56):
I try, I love this man.
Thank you, uh, thanks for doingthis.
Um, yeah, thank you.
Any any parting thoughts to uhthe finpub world here, other
than, like, eat my dust?
Chris Cimorelli (49:10):
no, no, because I'm.
I'm wrapping up anotherpromotion right now that we're a
little skeptical about becauseit's a rushed job.
It has to go out before theFOMC meeting in September.
So you know, we're going to seeif I can do it again.
Chances are I'm not and that Imight be humbled Once again.
It happens to the best of us.
It's this service I'm launching, where I am going after 1000%
(49:36):
winners.
I figured out the architectureof it, I've cracked the 10 X
code and it's, but it's.
It's a much morestraightforward, greedy
promotion, and so it doesn'treally have that much of the the
bigness and grandeur to it.
But what it does have is thisjust really really strangeness
to it, where it's just likeyou've never seen someone have
this many, many, a thousandpercent winners.
So there is this bigger element.
John Newtson (49:58):
Yeah, yeah, in recent that that that helps too.
Chris Cimorelli (50:03):
So there is this bigness to it in the sense
that, like, yeah, there's thisbig thing that's going to happen
on September 17th.
I used this same thing one yearago to make three of these
1000% winners.
Here they are I mean basicallysix figures of those three
trades.
John Newtson (50:22):
But it's not a marketing gimmick or it's not a
repackaging of other things tomake it seem like 1000% gains.
It's.
Here is a real money trackrecord.
Yeah, I actually made thesetrades.
Here's the stuff.
Yeah, that's.
There's a, there's an immediacyand I think power to that.
(50:44):
That's different thanrepackaging stuff that like, oh,
this could, if you got in hereand got out there, he could have
made this.
Um, you know what I mean?
There's a.
The visceralness gets lost inthat.
Chris Cimorelli (50:56):
In my in kudos to those copywriters who know
how to write that copy, becauseI don't know how to do it.
Like I'm I'm very simple.
In some ways.
It's why I tried to get as muchactual financial knowledge as I
can, because I'm like I don'tknow how to do some of this
clever shit y'all are doing,like this thing and stuff.
I'm like I'm just like, how didyou get so creative to
(51:17):
manufacture an argument thatdoesn't really exist?
I'm like I'm like like kudos.
Honestly, I'm like, yeah right,you're a better sales person
than I am.
Um, I have to rely on real,actual, tangible, physical
evidence.
John Newtson (51:38):
Um, no, but so so yeah, you're an embarrassment
okay, just an embarrassment it'sjust an embarrassment, like you
can't just manufacture stuffout of your ass and sell it I
don't, I don't, I'm not good atit, I'm really not no, that's
not, I don't think.
I see, I see really creativepromotion sometimes and I'm
really not.
Chris Cimorelli (51:54):
No, that's not, I don't think that's anything
to be ashamed of.
I see, I see really creativepromotion sometimes and I'm like
I can't do that and it makes mefeel very inadequate actually.
Or I'm like yeah, like I.
John Newtson (52:02):
I'm like I don't know, this is just something
about, like the, I think,careers is you figure out what
this is?
Chris Cimorelli (52:11):
not trying to do the things.
John Newtson (52:13):
Yeah, absolutely true, yeah, yeah, and so, and
you're, and you know, yourmarket always comes back around.
You know, one of the one of thethings when clayton uh, maybe
he's passed away um, uh, youknow, one of the many tragedies
of that was that I felt like,for for the last part of his
career, the market was not hismarket, right, like, um, he
(52:35):
killed it in times of anxiety,times of fear, times of, and so
I felt like, you know,post-covid, like when things got
set, like that was exactly thetime, like we're entering a
market that like he had crushedit again, um, because it's the
kind of thing that he did sowell, and so, like, yeah, I was
(52:57):
like you know but Well, I dothink that there is an emerging
renaissance for people who whowant to claim it, and I am also
very glad that there is sometalks about how this promotion
reinvigorated the industry.
Chris Cimorelli (53:12):
It's not the best promotion ever.
It has not even broken 10million yet it will when we do a
second campaign with it, whichwe will do.
Obviously, there's a promotionout there that have done 30, 20,
$30 million.
However, it is a sign that like, oh, we're not, we're not,
we're not out, we're not done.
John Newtson (53:30):
I mean it's been, it's been a minute.
Chris Cimorelli (53:38):
It has.
You know, it was the best oneday sales number in agora in, I
think, six and a half, sevenyears.
Yeah, so it feels good for alot of people.
Um, because 2020 and 2021 arealso pretty decent freaking
years and we beat that too, yousaid you said.
John Newtson (53:50):
You said something to me before too that I thought
was really interesting.
Interesting just to wrap it upwith, was that you didn't say it
this way, but in my head Iheard it a little bit, like a
little bit, there's a little bitof an aspect of the four minute
mile here where we stoppedbelieving that we could do this
again.
Yeah right, and that that isone of those things.
(54:11):
If you, if you kind of likeelaborate on that.
Chris Cimorelli (54:15):
I think that's a great way to end this call,
cause I do have to jump onto ourthree o'clock copy call at
paradigm in in about one minute.
Um, I can be a minute late.
I've I've got a little bit ofof wiggle room with them now.
Um, it is the the problem ofself-limiting beliefs and this
is, this is something you see inlike a lot of the old school,
(54:38):
like dating copy, like you knowthat stuff that you like
stumbled upon at like 1 am.
It's like this guy has thesecret formula to make women
love you.
It's all about self-limitingbeliefs and I don't like being
underestimated.
I've never underestimatedmyself.
I've always held myself to ahigh standard and this is going
to be a big message in my 10Xtrader promotion is I wanted to
(54:58):
believe that 1000% gains arepossible.
I manifested that shit.
But it really is just aboutchoosing to believe that this
can be done and then just goingand doing it and doing the hard
work, but also enjoying thejourney and loving the process
and really, really, you have tohave joy in it.
You really do.
For me, the money is not thefirst thing, it is.
(55:20):
I genuinely enjoy working inthis business, these kind of
intellectual conversations thatalso have to do with business,
but just finding truth or whatkeep me alive.
Quite frankly, I would blow myhead off if all I did was just
like have mind-numbingconversations all day, or it was
just honestly probably stillteaching.
That probably would have killedme too.
But I I think, yeah, just justbelieving that it can be done to
(55:42):
remove your self-limitingbeliefs, because they are
probably killing you in yourbusiness.
And with that said, john, thankyou sir, go ahead, please wrap
it up.
John Newtson (55:51):
No, no, I was just gonna finish, I was just gonna
say thanks for doing this and Ithink with that, like the way
that, like that, that belief inthe copy is, is that like, don't
believe that it's good enough,go back to it and be like, how
can you make this excellent,because it's gonna matter and
you know, like some of my bestpromotions at banyan, like I
wrote this first called onetrade.
Chris Cimorelli (56:10):
I literally spent 18 months writing that
promotion.
I don't know how I took thatlong, but it ended up being like
$10 million promotion.
It was worth it.
Um, but that's extreme.
We don't have that kind of timethese days.
But go back and rewrite it.
You're never, ever, ever goingto get it right.
And first try.
Awesome, okay, all right.
John Newtson (56:31):
Thanks, hey, man, this is great, that's okay, all
right, thanks.
Chris Cimorelli (56:32):
Chris, hey man, this is great, this is awesome,
you're amazing, same Same.
John Newtson (56:37):
Love talking to you.
Love talking to you.
You too, dude, all right, takecare.
Bye, you too, bye.
All right, hey everyone.
So I'm start with.
A few years ago I had Mark Fordon here and it was in the
depths of FinPub's kind ofcrisis, when everybody was
pulling promos, when everyone,because of FTC stuff and things
were going south, and he saidsomething really kind of like
uncomfortable.
He said that he wasn't sure ifour model, meaning the Agora
(00:27):
model, really had a future,basically.
And then recently I heard arumor that after Chris
Cimorelli's latest promo, whichdid what $4.5 million on day one
and $8.8 million over the nextcouple of days there was a rumor
that Mark said something alongthe lines of this promo restored
(00:48):
his faith in our newslettermodel.
So my first question, chris, ishow does it feel to have
restored the faith of a verywealthy man in the model that
made him wealthy?
Chris Cimorelli (00:58):
It almost felt as good as putting up Agora's
best sales number in seven years.
It was my personal best.
It actually beat my personalbest day one number by by three
times and it honestly itsurpassed the expectations of
every single person at paradigmpress.
Um, we literally did a, a polllike um, you know, like a bet.
(01:20):
Um, within the, the entire,like Slack channel of you know,
the graphic designers and theproducers and the videographers
and the marketers and everyonewho was on this project, it's
like what do you think the dayone total is going to be?
One person guessed like 3.2,which was the highest mark, and
it did 1.2 million more thanthat.
So that felt spectacular.
(01:41):
And, yeah, I saw that emailcome through from Mark Ford,
which was pretty cool.
I've spoken with Mark a fewtimes over the years.
I'd like to catch up with himnext time I'm in Florida.
But, definitely it does feel,and there's something I want to
say that just you know it reallyis a team effort and it really
(02:04):
shows you what happens when youhave a well-oiled machine at
your company.
I'm going to be the last personto tell you that, like, the
copywriter is the most importantingredient, like, yes, the copy
is really important, but havinga team of very, very
professional, driven,fast-working people is the only
way that you can get those kindof numbers today.
John Newtson (02:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So just to back up for a second, everybody this here, if you
don't know him, is ChrisCimorelli.
He's more than just acopywriter, though.
He's clearly an awesomecopywriter and, like I said, put
up the best numbers in Agorapretty much in a very long
period of time really.
And you are also an editor,you're an analyst, yeah.
(02:47):
So let's back up before we diginto this promo, because there's
a lot of stuff to talk aboutwith this promo.
What's your background inFinbub?
Chris Cimorelli (02:54):
So I started with the Agora Companies in 2014
.
It's a bit of a funny story.
I was an English major incollege.
I wanted to be a teacher.
I loved those movies, like youknow, um to serve with love and
freedom, writers and my stuffand I wanted to save the world.
I had these grandiose visionsof of doing that and I ended up
getting a job in Baltimore Cityteaching in an alternative high
(03:17):
school and I left after threemonths because my students were
at a three grade, third gradereading level.
None of them had two parents inthe household.
It was an alternative highschool so it was like worse than
like the typical bad highschool in inner city.
It was actually completelyuntenable.
So here I am, fresh out ofcollege with an English degree,
living in Mount Vernon by Agora.
(03:38):
Don't know what Agora is.
Start looking for writingediting jobs and see this
advertisement for six figurecopywriter and I decided that's
what I wanted to do with my life.
I wanted to write for a livingbecause I loved writing again,
English major and money soundedgood, really good when you're
fresh out of college and shitout of luck and fresh out of a
job.
So I ended up applying to.
You know I mean almost morethan half a dozen positions.
(04:01):
They eventually threw me a boneand they're like hey, we're
hiring an editorial assistant atthe Sovereign Society in Delray
Beach, Florida, and by thispoint I'd moved back home to
Charleston, South Carolina, andI had no interest in moving to
Florida.
But I'm like I really want towork for this company and I just
want to get my foot in the door.
I want to write copy, I justneed to get my foot in the door.
(04:22):
I look at the Sovereign Societyand it ended up being perfect
timing going there when I didbut it was at the time you know
very much like I could guess Icould say this the redheaded
stepchild of Agora is doingmaybe $6 million a year.
It wasn't profitable.
We had this other division ofthat company called Dent
Research with Harry Dent, whichwas actually successful and
(04:43):
profitable.
But it was kind of a risk on mypart.
But it ended up being very,very fortuitous because a year
later we had a man step in whoended up becoming my copy mentor
for many years Aaron DeHogue,who grew Sovereign Society,
changed his name to Bandy Hill,grew it 2,000% in three years.
So I got to watch thatevolution and study under him,
and also very elite copywriterslike Angel Suarez.
(05:03):
And, of course, I was in theindustry at the same time that
guys like Jared Feintuck wereputting up $10 million with
every single promotion theywrote for Money Matt Press.
So everything worked out prettywell for me.
A lot of luck involved Wouldnever have figured out what
Agora was if I wasn't livingdown the street in Baltimore,
Maryland, 12 years ago, and I'mback in Baltimore today.
(05:25):
I decided to move back here soI could be close to the
headquarters operations ofParadigm Press, but so I mean,
I've been writing copy.
I ended up getting into copy in2016,.
Basically, I've put up I don'teven know what the number is
anymore it's 85 million maybe atthis point but I've always, as
a copywriter, really cared abouttrading and understanding the
(05:46):
financial markets.
I've made a lot of money.
I've lost a lot of money withmy own trading and I think
that's what makes me able towrite things like this promotion
, where I think when peoplewrite this, they can tell that
whoever wrote this has a really,really firm grasp of the
narratives behind the stocksthat were selected, and it just
requires that little bit ofextra insight that I have been
(06:10):
cultivating very intentionallyfor a number of years, to the
point now where I'm actually theanalyst on our microcap
newsletter with James Altucher.
I've been managing that productessentially for a year.
I pick most of the investmentson it.
I run them by him because I'mnot a Wall Street guy.
I never worked on Wall Street,I never managed money, I didn't
even have a finance degree I wasan English major but it's
(06:32):
actually turned out to be a very, very successful product and
the readers have responded to itvery well.
And I've now in the last yearin my personal trading account
I've made 1,000% gains 18different times in 18 different
trades.
So 1,000% gains, 18 differenttimes and 18 different trades.
So now we're launching a newproduct where it's just like a
swing for the fences, like gobig or go home, like speculative
options trading service, whereit's just like I have cracked
the 10X code.
I figured out the exactarchitecture of how 1,000% gains
(06:54):
happen.
I've done it 18 times in thelast year.
I've never been putting up hugeamounts of money, but I've made
hundreds of thousands ofdollars on these 18 trades,
never investing more than like3,300 bucks, I think was the
largest position size.
So for financial copywriters.
(07:14):
Something always occurred to methat was very strange.
I always thought it was strangehow many financial copywriters
I would talk to and they justput their money in an index fund
, just like have you no soul,have you no drive?
Do you know?
Desire to like lose money, totake risks and then figure out
the emotionality of that Cause.
That's, I think, what makes youreally really good.
Making money is good, but likesometimes when you lose money in
(07:36):
the market, like that's thebest teacher you can ever make
and that can be your catalyst towriting really, really, really
killer copy, because now you getit when you make a decision
about your money and then youscrew it up, which I've done,
like full disclosure I've done,I've made it back, but that's a
journey that really puts you inin the mind and heart and soul
(07:57):
of your subscriber now.
John Newtson (07:59):
So yeah, that's awesome.
So let's talk about this.
Well, actually that thatreminds me of some things that
you know I remember Portertalking talking about how, like
you know, he likes to to writethese dense promos, because he's
like, if you're an actualinvestor or trader, you want to
talk, you want the information,and if it's just, uh, if it's
(08:20):
super light on any type of meat,then what you really have, what
you're really getting, is thecustomer who is not a real
investor and that is not a greatcustomer.
He doesn't keep buying products, he doesn't stick around
because he's not really in themarkets, and so I think what you
have is actually you have thisand customers that you would see
(08:42):
a very obvious like breakup ofpeople who, like, actually are
in the markets and who are notstart to show up.
Not with everybody.
There's some writers who can doit, but I think there's a lot
of people who write things thatare much more well, just light.
Chris Cimorelli (09:02):
No, no, I know exactly what you're getting at
and this is something that we dovery intentionally at Paradigm
Press.
I mean, yes, most of my salesare still from Banyan by virtue
of the fact that I spent longerthere.
I've been in Paradigm for twoand almost two and a half years
now.
However, working for thatoperation has definitely helped
me up my game.
(09:22):
I mean, there are copywriterswith more sales than me.
I'm doing very well right now,obviously, but we always want to
have like a story and ourpublisher, matt Inslee.
He always says something likeit needs to be weird, there's
gotta be something weird aboutit.
Like he really, really caresabout that weirdness, that very
(09:43):
unique edge and specificity thatyou haven't seen anywhere else,
and just something that justbreaks up the pattern that just
you know, uh, just taps intosomething raw.
John Newtson (09:56):
I'd love that because to me that is classic,
like classic newsletter.
Right, the newsletter world wasalways like this weird dude in
his basement who had this crazyexperience maybe on Wall Street
and he figured something out andhe's taking a weird angle or
he's going after weird marketsor he's doing things that you
don't see elsewhere and likepart of the problem I think we
(10:19):
have is with trading andinvesting kind of being
mainstream, that a lot of whatwe say sounds like what you see
elsewhere now and it's very hardto stick out if you're not to
use his words weird.
Chris Cimorelli (10:34):
Well, we have gurus like James Altucher, who
is genuinely a weird guy, and Imean that as a compliment.
I've followed him for muchlonger than I've worked with him
.
I always found him very, veryinteresting.
He's a Renaissance man and Ithink that people see him and
they're just like.
This guy is clearly brilliantand he's strange as hell and
(10:57):
I've never seen anyone like him.
It's funny.
I was actually.
I took a trip to Germany with mychoir in June and,
unfortunately, we were launchinga promotion that I wrote for
james and someone on in my choirwas sitting behind me on the
plane while I'm like typingedits on the video, like on the
plane, like 3 am in the morning,30, 50, 000 feet in the air,
(11:21):
and then when we got off theplane, this this rachel is her
name she was like I have to knowwhat you were doing on your
computer because that guy onyour screen just looked so
strange and I've never seenanyone like him and that's
that's the point.
He's not buttoned up, hedoesn't wear a suit and tie, and
jim rickards is kind of thesame way.
Jim rickards has a kind of astrange quality to him.
(11:42):
This is like like he's very,very soft-spoken but like, very,
very elite but at the same timevery contrarian.
Like has a kind of likedarkness to him.
He's a very, very sweet manactually, but like his worldview
is very much like.
There are problems and I'm goingto make sure that you're aware
of them and I have knowledgeabout how bad it is that you do
(12:04):
not have Distinct characters.
Exactly that's what they are.
They're characters.
I have a bit of an actingbackground on the side.
I always liked doing theaterand choir and stuff like that.
You've got to have somethingdistinct.
If you're just buttoned up witha suit and tie at the same
point, it's like how are youreally so different than the
(12:26):
guys I see on CNBC?
Like I can, I can get that forfree.
I mean, I you know you pay $50a month for cable, but at the
same time it's just like I'malready.
I'm already paying for that.
John Newtson (12:35):
Right, yeah, yeah.
So let's, let's, let's talkabout this promo.
If I remember correctly, thiswas a kind of a all the editors
get together and do one bigpromo, so there's that element
of it.
But then there is the like youwant to walk through what the
(12:56):
thematic is of this promo andthen we can get into, kind of
like the what you did.
Chris Cimorelli (13:02):
Absolutely so.
And did we say?
What this ended up doing on dayone was like 4.4 million
dollars.
Yeah, that's what it started,yeah, yeah, and and you and you
have to understand that likethere is a certain architecture
to putting up a number like that.
So I mean, it's really startedwith a conversation in may or
where matt, our publisher, waslike we need another like three
editor summit for pmg, theparadigm mastermind, that's our
(13:25):
all-in, basically service, whereit's just like for the price of
one backend, you get access toour top three guys.
And some people were pitchingwhat they thought the best idea
would be.
Some people wanted to make itabout energy and electricity,
because utility bills are goingup and AI is very, very hungry
for power, and that was like anidea that like they could all
(13:47):
comment on, and I was like Ijust don't think electricity is
really the right thing and likethis is May, so it's just like
that.
That trade war is still very,very much a hot topic and I'm
like I think that's the topic.
I think that Trump has nowrevealed in the last few weeks
that like everything is aboutChina, everything comes back to
China, and it's just sort ofbacking into this narrative and
(14:09):
we don't reveal China untilmaybe 30, 40 minutes into the
promotion.
But it's basically this ideathat we're about ready to enter
a new season, even a new age.
In America we don't call itgolden age because that's just a
term that's out there but it'sthis idea that you know, we have
three guys who havecollectively, through their
(14:30):
independent research, allarrived at the same conclusion.
So that's what we're holdingthis all-in summit because
historically, when the three ofthese guys align, magic can
happen.
You know it's how they pickedPalantir Technologies.
You know, in late 2020, early2024.
You know, in January 2024, theyear it became the number one
stock in the S&P 500.
It's how they picked MPMaterials.
(14:51):
Before, like a couple of them,like James's option service had
like a 900% gain on MP Materials, the pick was something called
USAR.
That's the ticker USA RareEarths and it's like MP
Materials, a rare earth metalscompany.
Mp Materials is the only rareearth manufacturer in the
(15:13):
country.
Usar is more similar to JimRickards' birthright thesis,
which, if you're listening to afinancial newsletter podcast,
you would probably know whatthat promotion is.
But it's this idea that Trumpis unleashing the $150 trillion
secret trust fund or birthrightof minerals.
You know oil, gold, silver,copper, natural gas, that we
(15:34):
have uh on us land, and so thiscompany is more aligned with
that thesis than something likemp materials, which is already
producing the metals.
Usa rare earths owns, uh, thelargest rare earth site outside
of China, and it's notprofitable yet because there's
not a mine yet, it's not set upmine, they just own the mineral
(15:55):
rights.
So it's one of those birthrightcompanies.
So you start with this idea thatthey're all in on the same idea
and it's at the center ofAmerica's biggest transformation
in 50 years and it touchesevery single major theme that's
going on in the market right now.
Because what does rare earthstouch?
Well, technology, because youneed rare earths and technology.
So it's at the center of, like,the ai revolution.
It's also at the center of, youknow, reshoring, you know
(16:16):
american manufacturing of, ofreclaiming, you know energy and
mineral sovereignty andunleashing the birthrights.
Um, and there was like two otherthings.
But it's just like going downthis list which is like, hey,
all of these hot, hot topicsthat you see in the news that
you've heard from us, there'sone idea, all three of them have
come to it, and this one stockwe predict could go up 1,494% by
(16:41):
this time next year.
How do we get to that number?
Very simply, you take thecompany's market cap and then
you figure out like how manyminerals that the company
actually have and it cap andthen you figure out like how
many minerals of the companyactually have, and it turned out
like the best estimate I sawwas like 22 billion dollars.
So it's like a one point to onepoint.
So you just go to percentagecalculatorcom 1494.
(17:01):
Now you have a very unique,very specific number that feels
real.
It's not just saying it's gonnago up a thousand percent, like
anyone can say.
That doesn't seem like a baseanything.
You need a specific number.
So that's how we got that.
But then it starts with jimrecords, because of course he's
the one who's brought in themost fronted names of the last,
you know, six months and he'slike this story that we're about
to talk about.
Yes, it does have to do with mybirthright, pieces I've shared
(17:22):
with you, but in a way it'sbigger because this impacts the
core of america itself.
Then it goes to james and andit's like James basically says
what Trump is planning right nowcould literally double the size
of the US stock market.
And there's one investment youneed to own.
It's the same investment we'veall put our finger on that is
(17:45):
really at the center of this bigtransformation.
We call it America 2.0, whichis just a term that just ripped
off from an old Banyan promotionthat Aaron DeHoe wrote.
It's just a good term, but alsothat was a manufacturing idea,
that promotion you know back inthe day.
And then it gets to Enrique, thethird guy, who's, you know, not
(18:06):
as well known to our file, buthe's got serious street cred.
He managed over a billiondollars on Wall Street.
So he's the only guy on ourfile who can say that they're
like oh, we got like a $4billion fund manager.
That's pretty freaking hot.
And then he gets up and heshows this chart of America in
1990.
And it shows by state theaverage employer by sector, and
(18:29):
of course it was manufacturing.
Two thirds of the country wasthis one color in 1990.
And then you fast forward totoday and it shows you that in
three quarters of the countrythe top like highest average
employer per state is healthcare.
So now you go to this like whoa,like we went from a country, a
real country, a proper country,a first world country that made
(18:52):
things that you know employedpeople in high paying jobs where
they had function and purposeand actually saw the product of
their work, to a country thattakes care of sick people and we
really suck at doing that andyet that's our primary function
now.
So now it's like you've really,like, brought an emotional
charge to this.
We're like you're kind ofpissed off, but also like you
(19:12):
understand that there's hope atthe center of this.
And even if you don't likedonald trump, we don't make this
about trump.
Really.
We just make it about, likethis policy in this inevitable
shift in dynamic that we'retalking about.
So so now you've got the threeof them.
They've each made their pitchabout, like, why this thing
matters, and then jim comes backin and reveals we're talking
about china.
And then you back into the rareearth thing.
(19:34):
But it's also like china, youknow, like their economy's
literally gone up 10 000 overthe last 50 years.
So 50 years is a big theme here.
What happened 50 years ago?
We?
We basically started, you know,uh, offshoring our
manufacturing center.
China's manufacturing center isfive trillion trillion a year
roughly, and you know we get 80%of our pharmaceuticals, 90% of
(19:54):
our antibiotics, you know, and,of course, like 90% of our rare
earth metals which we need, andall the advanced technology,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah blah, and from there
the rest of the promotion iscake.
John Newtson (20:05):
That's like half the promotion though I love that
, so that.
So the birthright piece is kindof the weirdness on the front
yeah, I guess you could say it's.
Chris Cimorelli (20:13):
I don't know if it's the weirdness because it's
unexpected, I guess, except forjim's file yeah, yeah, I guess
for people who are not familiarwith that thesis, it would be
unexpected.
It's kind of like putting themin familiar territory, so it's
like touching base with, likehey, where we've been.
But it's also just one of theseideas that's very, very easy to
articulate to a cold reader,because it's just like oh, ok,
(20:37):
yeah, I know we have a lot ofminerals and I guess I've heard
that Trump wants to unleash this, and you guys put up this big
gain already and you foundsomething that you're saying is
50 times bigger, so it has 50times more of these elements.
But then from there, you know,after the all-in pick, which is
one of five stocks we pitch,they each have their own and Jim
pitches an AI drone company,james pitches an AI automation
(20:58):
factory company, and thenEnrique pitches an AI power
company, because we're going toneed and that's where the
electricity thesis comes backinto this, because it's an
important element to the storybut it was only a piece of it.
And then there was a finalall-in piece at the end that's
worked with 30, 40, 50, 100large companies over the years.
It's basically a manufacturinggiant, united states, that no
(21:19):
one knows by name, right?
Um?
So that's how the architectureof of this worked and it was a
very it's a two-hour promotion,essentially hour an hour and 40
minutes Very, very rich indetail, packed with story, lots
of emotional elements to it,like America and feel good and
also Trump, but also AI, butalso minerals, so it's got
something for every singleperson.
John Newtson (21:42):
And once you put those three guys, they each have
their own unique take wherethey're showing their own
individual side of themselvesand the way they approach the
markets then also like it buildsinto this, just like unit, it's
like yeah and that and that Ithink about that, um, that
comparison of like 1990 to todayand the move from manufacturing
(22:04):
to to health care, because whenyou see it like you say there's
an emotional thing, there's athere's, there's an emotional
part, but it's also like there'sa paradigm, like you know what
I mean.
It makes something that vaguefeeling that people have about
what's happened to our economyseem very concrete and it just
putting those two up next toeach other by itself creates a
narrative.
Chris Cimorelli (22:24):
Yeah, right, because we've been frogs in
boiling water for so long.
It's like we understand there'ssomething, we went wrong
somewhere, but you don't reallythink of it, and I just made
sure to put this into very, veryclear terms where it's just
like these free trade deals weredumb.
And just do the side by sidecomparison of China's economy 50
years ago Ours was 10 timeslarger, and then we show what it
(22:46):
is now and it's like there'sjust two thirds the size of ours
, and it's all because of thisone thing.
And now Trump is reversing theone thing.
It's very, very simple, butit's also just like you can't
really argue with it.
That is the truth.
Like that is where we have been.
That's why people have votedfor Trump, love him or hate him,
(23:07):
and but then you bring that upas well.
It's just like it doesn'tmatter how you feel about Trump.
You know this is happening fora reason.
You know exactly why, if you'rean intelligent, reasonable
person, which I think anyfinancial newsletter subscriber
is, or at least thinks they are.
John Newtson (23:20):
We all think we are right, like we all think we
are, but also like that kind oflike paradigm shift when you see
things like that, like has areally like, a really strong.
It's not just an emotionalimpact, it's, I think of it as,
like this moment when you havemoments like that in your promo,
all of a sudden you'veexplained the world in a new way
(23:41):
that makes everything else makesense to somebody, and so like
they're suddenly really open andengaged to your message,
because it's like holy shit, Inever thought about that, and
that moment is like I got tohear what else they're going to
say.
But also like this is theperson who made me see that
(24:01):
thing that I didn't see, andit's impacted me so much that,
like I'm in on this conversationnow.
Chris Cimorelli (24:05):
And once you understand it, then you
understand this is literally thebiggest story.
This is the only story andobviously, if we're reversing 50
years of damage, that hascreated a five trillion dollar a
year business for china.
There's crap, tons of moneyit's about to pour into the usa.
There's this recurring ideathat, like, uh, morgan stanley
(24:27):
said this is a 10 trilliondollar opportunity, and then our
guys are like this is a 10trillion dollar opportunity and
then our guys are like this isnot 10 trillion dollars because
trump has already guaranteed 10trillion dollars in investments.
You think that we're done?
We're not done.
We're nowhere close.
That's from like a handful ofcompanies and actually sovereign
nations that have agreed to putup 10 trillion dollars in
investment in the us because,guess what, they don't want to
(24:48):
work with tiny either.
They're like we're gettingscrewed over by them.
They interfere with ourelections.
They house put up $10 trillionin investment in the US Because,
guess what, they don't want towork with China either.
They're like we're gettingscrewed over by them.
They interfere with ourelections, they house cyber
criminals.
They do this, that and theothers.
It's like we kind of prefer towork with the US.
Actually, it's just likethey're bullies too, but at
least they're not evil sometimesno-transcript.
John Newtson (26:02):
The discord and I think we've had it separately
offline before um is that inthis, especially in 22, like
when, after the dip, we'vetalked about this thing, that
for such a long time we hadcopywriters who came up, you
know, during the longest bullmarket in history that had, you
know, crypto come in, and youlook back to all those promos.
(26:24):
I don't have that document thathas like the lead headlining,
lead complexes from all thepromos that did like 10 million
and above, right on the back end, and all of those during that
peak period of, like you know,2016 to like 20, they were all
profit centric.
It was a new mechanism on ablack box system with thousands,
(26:44):
all this stuff right.
And one of the conversationsthat we were having in the dark
part of FinPub was that it'sgoing to take a while for
writers to adjust to the oldschool idea of an investment
thesis and building aninvestment thesis and not just
selling potential gains.
And that was part of the FTCissues too, because an investing
(27:06):
thesis promo is not going totrigger things in the same way
as hey, this is going to make.
Look at these thousand percentgains that are all cherry picked
, right.
And so to me when you talk aboutthis like this, is that idea
Exactly Like?
(27:27):
You've built this amazinginvestment thesis that plugs
into the zeitgeist of the times.
It's dense with information.
How long was it?
You said it was like an hourHour and a half An hour, 40
minutes Dense, dense informationGoing into individual stocks.
We have a big macro thesisGoing down to the individual
stocks from all the differenteditors and it's not a make
1,000% because we have thissecret system that does X and Y
(27:50):
or whatever, and you make athousand percent because we have
this secret system that does Xand Y or whatever and you make a
bunch of money.
It's a real like, engaginginvestment thesis.
That like is a promo and thatagain is like.
This is classic to me FinPub.
This is like the thing thatmade FinPub great to begin with.
Chris Cimorelli (28:06):
I think I I I love the way that you're
articulating this because youknow it was funny, because when
I started writing copy, it wasin that very bubbly territory.
Like I basically startedwriting sales copy a transition
from editorial in 2016.
And that was like the start oflike the real bull market and
that's when, just like greedtook over over and and as I was
(28:28):
starting my copy career, I thinkthat was probably good for me,
because I saw some of the thingsthat people were writing in
2015 that were still very muchthat kind of classic finpub
style and like this is socreative and like I don't know
how they came up with this.
Now that I've really likeingratiated myself in the
financial markets for 10 years,it's very easy for me to come up
(28:50):
with a story like this.
That central stock was my idea.
I recommended it in our otherservice that I managed with
James, but I was like that isthe pick for this.
It touches all of these guys.
The only person I would havebeen worried about rejecting it
would have been James, and we'dalready recommended it in
another service that I manage.
So that's where this is.
(29:15):
This was a lot of.
Also, this is just a lot of funto write, like, I have to say,
because it is just this rich andcompelling idea that's
satisfying in its own right.
And something we haven't talkedabout is that we really made
this like an event for thereaders where they didn't leave
feeling like they got pitchedsomething, Cause that's the
(29:37):
worst feeling in the world,Right, that just happened to me,
you know, the other day.
It's just like I I sawsomething that I wanted and I
set up a call and then, likethey're just going through like
30 minutes of of questions andit's this, you know's this sales
architecture, where it's justlike they're asking you
questions to get you to say yes,I'm just like.
I really would just love tojust make this person shut up
(29:59):
and be like I have $85 millionin sales, I know exactly what
you're doing.
Can we just get to the point?
I'm a warm client.
Let's just cut to the chase.
I should just say that I shouldjust say that, John, but for I
should just say that I shouldjust say that.
But um, for this, we, we gavethem a free report.
The second they signed up forthe hot list.
I think they had to enter theirphone number as well, but it
was basically like anatomy of asix thousand percent gain and
(30:21):
that was the peak return of thatmp materials, that rare earth
options trade that we hadrecommended like a month or two
prior to this promotion goingout.
And so it's just like, well, Ikind of want that report like
anatomy of a 6,000% gain.
It's like sure, I want to knowwhat the anatomy of a 6,000%
gain is.
How do you do that?
How did you do that?
So they get that for free.
(30:43):
But then when they come to thepromotion, it's just like if you
stay to the end, you get thisother report and it names
projects like Northern DynastyMinerals, you know, owns the
Pebble Project in Alaska.
It also names what else did wegive away?
I mean stuff like ProjectColossus with like Elon Musk,
you know.
It's just like obviously likeTesla's playing on that, but
(31:05):
it's like so is Dell, so is AMD,so it's those kind of like big,
like physical, literal projectslike lithium mines, things like
that, Structurally, the onesthat you you give away directly
and you really do, those comefirst before you tease some
things at the end.
No, because they don't get thatpromotion until after.
But we don't.
We don't suggest that there'sanything in that report that
(31:27):
like they've got to have, likethat there's anything in that
report that like they've got tohave like it's interesting
enough, where it's just like Ikind of want that report.
But I think it's sort of likeunderstood that like you're not
getting this one big, frigginawesome idea.
It's like I want the one bigfriggin awesome idea.
It's like I appreciate yougiving me something.
And I wrote that report.
I picked those 10 projects, Ipicked the 10 companies like you
(31:48):
could invest in and it'sattached to them.
So it's just like so it's gotgood value because you've got an
analyst who's actually pickingthis stuff and analyst slash
copywriter who's doing it.
So anyone who got their reportwas like oh, this is kind of
cool and it's like it's got amap.
It shows like where theprojects are.
It's like literally it's like aroadmap.
So doing that does two thingsit boost conversions because it
(32:10):
gets them to stay to the end andit just gives them that feeling
just like like oh, I feel good,I don't feel pitched, because
you gave me a compelling storyand you're offering me something
for free, which also boostsconversions, but it also doesn't
piss people off, which is goodfor future conversions as well.
John Newtson (32:28):
Nice, and so I'd love for every copywriter who's
listening to hear, listen tothat really closely, especially
the ones who are kind of likestruggling right now.
Was it you that was telling methat, like a couple weeks ago,
that you're hot.
Chris Cimorelli (32:42):
Someone was asking if you're hiring
copywriters and you're like,yeah, we had this conversation,
or this does happen to me a lotwhere, like I have, have people
like dropping my, my dms andlinkedin and they ask me are you
hiring at paradigm?
And it's a copywriter, andsometimes it's copywriters I've
worked with like goodcopywriters and I, I, I I'd have
to tell them.
It's like you're asking thewrong question, the, the, the.
(33:06):
The right way to do this iswhat do you want to write about?
And sometimes I can't get ananswer, john, which is
concerning.
It's just like, why do you want?
Why would you want to writehere?
I mean, I understand like, like, yeah, paradigm's like the best
in the industry right now, likewe're putting the best numbers.
But I can also tell you I'vehad some promotions.
(33:26):
Can I swear on here, john?
Am I allowed to swear on here?
I've had some promotions.
Apparently I'm completely shit.
The fucking bed.
Like I had a promotion that didlike a quarter of a million
dollars, which, especially atparadigm, sucks, it sucks.
It was like one of the worstthings I ever wrote and I wrote
that at paradigm.
Actually, no, no, funny story.
The first thing I did atparadigm, um, like after I
(33:50):
transferred from fromanyan Hilland went there, it was a backend
for Jim Rickards and I wrotethis idea.
Matt didn't like it, our copychief, patrick, they didn't like
it.
They're like we're going to dothis, we're going to do a live,
we're going to do Bill O'Reilly,we're doing it live, except
it's with Jim Rickards and itand it's going to be the
emergency banking summit andit's going to lead to this
(34:10):
landing page.
We're going to take some of thecopy of your book, put it on
that landing page.
John, this thing did $20,000.
It's my first promotion toParadigm.
It has a hot list in everythingit does $20,000.
And, to the credit of the teamthere, we got into a Zoom call
(34:31):
like this the next day and I waslike this can't happen again.
And they were like you're right, it can't happen again.
And so on the next promotion,they basically gave me free
reign and that promotion didokay.
It ended up doing $800,000,$900,000 over the next year,
which is fine, but where was Igoing with this?
(34:52):
Yeah, you have to have an idea.
You can't just be like, hey, Iwant to write for you.
It's like why, what is youridea?
Or it'll be like, well, whatservices need some TLC?
And it's just like, honestly,if we have services that have
TLC, we'll just won't marketthem.
We'll market whatever is hotand fresh and we'll keep them on
the back burner because it hasgood track record and servicing
(35:13):
our readers and it might bemarketable someday, but it's not
now, so we're just not going toworry about it.
We're going to market what wecan market, because we can make
$100 million a year doing thatand keep that stuff for later,
so it's what is your deal?
John Newtson (35:25):
What you?
Chris Cimorelli (35:26):
want to write about?
What do you want to write about?
What do you care about?
This is what I'm talking about,john.
There's so many financialcopywriters who don't even have
like stocks that they care about.
And don't talk to me abouttesla.
I don't want to hear abouttesla.
Shut up, shut up, shut up.
John Newtson (35:40):
Have another stock that you care about besides
tesla yeah, and that, so thatthis is where that whole deal
like this is.
Again, this is classicnewsletter and like right now,
this period in time, the entireworld is shifting right, like
the whole geopolitical order ischanging, which then means the
entire economic system ischanging the supply chain,
(36:01):
everything is changing right andit's a newsletter writer's
market.
If you, if you love big ideas,if you love like the impacts of
those torn through, like, likemarkets and portfolios and
everything.
It's a fascinating fucking timeright to write and talk about
markets.
It's one of the mostfascinating times probably since
like, yeah, like it's back toclassic.
(36:34):
You know, I came up underclayton make peace and he was
one of the you know last likethe bridge direct mail to you
know copywriters to hear, and Iremember like telling all the
stories about direct mail andwhat they would, him and
bensavenga and they were like,yeah, they would have people
write, hit them up and say, hey,we need a package.
But just as often he'd be likeI have this idea that I need to
write and I'm going to findsomeone to pay me for it and he
(36:54):
would pitch it to them.
And that's the world we're in.
Is that like there should bethings that you're just like.
Someone should be writing aboutthis.
I got to write about this, andpitching that to people is going
to get you more work than thekind of very meek like well,
what do you have?
Chris Cimorelli (37:11):
Well, and I have to say, john, you're
absolutely right.
So this idea, this all-insummit, as I said and I'm not
dunking on the leadership ofParahab at all They've helped me
up my game a lot.
When I submit shit copy, theytell me it sucks, and then that
pisses me off and I go fix itand I'm like you're right, and
then it's better and that's howI am making the sales, the money
(37:33):
I do.
But they weren't necessarilyeager about this.
Like china tariff trade idea,because and this actually became
a real issue what if trumpmakes a tweet where he's like I
love g, g and our best friends,we're selling the uS to China?
Obviously, he's not going tosay that.
(37:54):
But what if he's going to saywe have a deal, we worked it out
before this deadline.
And so the weekend after wefilmed this, a news article came
out that Scott Besson, treasurySecretary of the United States,
and officials from China aremeeting in Switzerland and
they're basically like we'regoing to do another 90-day pause
(38:17):
and we're like fuuuuuck.
But like we, like everyone, wasjust like well, we recorded
evergreen pickups, we're justgoing to do the evergreen
pickups.
And I was like guys, guys, Iknow that you're pissed off
right now, because you said thiswould happen and it's happening
(38:38):
.
However, I have a hunch, a very,very strong hunch, knowing
Donald Trump as well as I do.
I haven't even read the art ofthe deal, but I feel like I do
understand the man's psychologya little bit.
He's going to maximize hisleverage.
He's going to wait until theabsolute last minute to announce
officially that this next pauseis on the table, because that's
(39:01):
what the news shows.
It's like like Besson and thesetrade officials in China agreed
on this, but Trump gets thelast say.
Why would he be like, yeah,that's fine.
No, he's going to make Chinasweat.
How do I know this?
Because he's Donald Trump andthat's what he does.
You know anything about how tomake a deal and maximize
leverage, which he is theperfect person at doing?
(39:23):
That that's what he's going todo.
Sure enough, he did not waituntil August 12th, which was the
deadline.
He waited until about 3 pm, 2pm, august 11th.
3 pm 2 pm august 11th.
So we cut our deadline short bylike a day, by which point we'd
already made eight and a halfmillion dollars, so we're like
(39:44):
I'm fine there you go close thecampaign, we'll save an
evergreen version, roll it outwhen this next 90 days expires.
But you know, I but my point iswhat you said I had to really
fight for this idea and, totheir credit, when a copywriter
is really, really impassionedabout an idea and they make a
really, really compellingargument about why they need to
(40:05):
do it this way, they will listen.
And it does require just somelike, not putting your foot down
, not being a dick, but justmaking a really good argument.
And it's not a copy argument,it's like a business argument,
it's just like.
I think this is the rightbusiness move.
(40:25):
This is the story.
And is there a risk?
Yeah, there's a little bit of arisk, but that's also why we
got the reward that we did andand and.
When this dropped, like all this, like tension about like, will
Trump, you know, extend the?
But we'll only.
That's like in the news rightnow.
Like now it's this fever pitchand like, at the same time, like
(40:46):
he's announcing this deal withIndia and with Europe, et cetera
, et cetera, et cetera.
So now it's getting really hotagain.
It's in the news everyone'sgods are shining on you, exactly
exactly, or yeah, my, my, youknow, mother in heaven, or
something like that looking outfor me um so but it's like, yeah
(41:12):
, yeah, go ahead.
John Newtson (41:12):
No, no, I was just gonna say, like you know,
people have to remember, likethe, this is like the, the, the
elegance of Bonner calling thecompany the Agora, because it
was a market, which is Greekterm for market.
It's the marketplace of ideas,and so, like the ideas matter
and it felt, I think it feltlike for a while during that
boom that the ideas didn'tmatter so much, yeah, and that
(41:34):
you know it's a mean reversion.
We're back to the industry.
Ideas kind of ruled theindustry for a long time.
Chris Cimorelli (41:41):
And you know the reason that this business
really appeals to someone likeme, like I.
Again, english major college, Istudied Latin.
I understood what the Agora wasand I'm like that's a really
interesting and provocative andlike just intelligent way to
label and market your financialnewsletter business.
Because at the time I had nointerest in finance at all.
(42:04):
I I was very skinny, I didn'thave a muscle on my body, I was
just a dude who just likedreading books.
I'm like money, oh, it's sobase, it's so pretentious.
I was the pretentious one, butI was like there's something
interesting about the way thatthey're pitching this company
(42:24):
and I think that's why thebusiness is as successful as it
is, because it attracts themoney people, but it also
attracts these weird libertarianpeople.
John Newtson (42:34):
And then it attracts people like me who's
kind of like in the middlesomewhere, where it's like I'm
weird but I also like money well, that's the thing, is like this
point that's what's so greatabout it to me is like this like
there's this weird intellectualintersection of the economy,
politics, um, companies,investments, stock markets and
(42:55):
kind of like the you know thisconstant dance that's happening
between them, history like, butthe practical, like, you know,
you come up with a thesis or anidea or an opinion and you can
tell whether you made or lostmoney on it, right, and so
there's like this very in yourface, aggressive kind of aspect
(43:17):
to it.
Chris Cimorelli (43:18):
um, yeah, but it's.
It's also I mean this is gonnasound really hokey in a very
kumbaya, but it's really aboutthe search for truth is what I
think, and that's what gets backto that intellectual core of it
.
Money, like it or not, is at thecenter of everything, and I
mean, I think that working forthis company has made me,
honestly, a better voter.
It's also maybe just moresympathetic to the plights of
(43:40):
every person, no matter likewhat side they fall on the aisle
, because it all comes down tomoney and financial anxiety and
there's a lot of financialanxieties these days.
And finding that core truth,you know, with this big,
intelligent idea and not justshowing yourself as some used
car salesman in a shitty suit uh, really appeals to a lot of
(44:02):
people right now, and they'renot necessarily looking for
salvation, they're just lookingfor, like something, some
guiding light, something thatbrings some meaning to the chaos
of this moment.
And I think that we articulatedthat extremely well with this
(44:22):
promotion, where we basicallyrecapped 50 years of american
history and explained whyeverything's about to turn, and
it's like if you've been waitingfor something.
This is the thing, yeah yeah,that's, that's awesome.
John Newtson (44:41):
I love that I love that.
So what do you think is?
What do you think is missingfor some?
Not just promos, but it's.
There's a malaise in a lot ofpublishing businesses right now.
Chris Cimorelli (45:00):
There is, there still is.
Yeah, we've, we've gotten overhours and a lot of that is just
like the, the brain power, and alot of it is is the leadership
Um, matt is.
He's a workhorse, he really isUm and but he also is a nice guy
who knows how to have fun andhe's very, very human.
(45:23):
It's an interesting questionbecause I do see this a lot in
our business, where I still seea lot of those stale, safe
headlines and look, sometimesthat works, like Alex Green's
Next's, like next magnificentseven.
I still see ads for that andI'm like that's, that's working.
Don't stop it, don't fight it.
(45:46):
I mean, he does, you know, and Ithink the oxford club kind of
fits in that kind of like.
It's the oxford club.
It has that elegance in thatsense of elitism to it very
intentionally.
So that is kind of the demothat you want to serve with with
that, so, so I give them a passis what I'm trying to say.
(46:06):
And and obviously that's one ofthe most stable, you know,
businesses in in the industry.
But I I think that because it'shard, because I do see a lot of
copywriters who are just likeoh, I want to write about this
(46:27):
idea that I like.
Okay, does the market like it?
Is there any news?
No, don't write about it.
Find an idea that you like andlike it because it's relevant.
Find an idea that's relevant,that's different.
And but honestly, john, like Ispend a lot of time after hours
(46:48):
when the market's closed, whenbusiness is closed, just like
looking on my robin hood account, just like chart go a little
bit pretty, I'll scroll down,like what are the related stocks
to this stock.
I've never heard of this oneJust doing research which sparks
a thought, an original thought,and it's just poking around and
(47:10):
finding this stuff, organically, researching stocks, reading
Something's going to come to you.
But you have to have theseconversations with your peers in
your business and it can beoutside of your company too Just
someone who cares about theseconcepts, and just have these
conversations until that sparkcomes to you.
But you need to have thosepeople.
(47:30):
No man is an Island.
There's no copy cave.
Get out of your stupid copycave because you're writing
shitty copy inside of it.
You think it's brilliantbecause it's you and you're in
love with yourself and you lovethe way you look in the mirror,
but actually it's not that great.
I had the same problem everyfirst draft.
I'm like this is the best thingI've ever written.
I submit it and they're likethis has a lot of problems.
(47:52):
I look at at it.
I'm like you're right, I waslike drunk last night, like or
something.
I wasn't drunk, I was on, butit's something like that.
Have conversations.
Have conversations with peoplewho don't just care about money
and about the business but aboutthe ideas, intelligent people,
and that's an example of likethat's something Matt is very
good at, matt very good at thebusiness.
(48:13):
But also just like we have aSlack channel called YOLO Trades
and it's just us beingdegenerates and being like I
want to buy this.
This stock looks like it wantsto go up, let's go.
Like that's the attitude,that's the vibe, but it's just
like we've got a little bit ofdiscretionary income that we
want to waste and gamble becauseit's fun.
(48:34):
Right, like you've got to havethe fun, you've got to have,
have fun, have fun.
That's it.
That's it.
That's the trick, john justhave some damn fun, enjoy the
business because it's sofreaking cool and and surround
yourself with people who areexcited about it.
You know as well.
That's it.
I think it's the secret wisewords from chris simirelli.
John Newtson (48:56):
I try, I love this man.
Thank you, uh, thanks for doingthis.
Um, yeah, thank you.
Any any parting thoughts to uhthe finpub world here, other
than, like, eat my dust?
Chris Cimorelli (49:10):
no, no, because I'm.
I'm wrapping up anotherpromotion right now that we're a
little skeptical about becauseit's a rushed job.
It has to go out before theFOMC meeting in September.
So you know, we're going to seeif I can do it again.
Chances are I'm not and that Imight be humbled Once again.
It happens to the best of us.
It's this service I'm launching, where I am going after 1000%
(49:36):
winners.
I figured out the architectureof it, I've cracked the 10 X
code and it's, but it's.
It's a much morestraightforward, greedy
promotion, and so it doesn'treally have that much of the the
bigness and grandeur to it.
But what it does have is thisjust really really strangeness
to it, where it's just likeyou've never seen someone have
this many, many, a thousandpercent winners.
So there is this bigger element.
John Newtson (49:58):
Yeah, yeah, in recent that that that helps too.
Chris Cimorelli (50:03):
So there is this bigness to it in the sense
that, like, yeah, there's thisbig thing that's going to happen
on September 17th.
I used this same thing one yearago to make three of these
1000% winners.
Here they are I mean basicallysix figures of those three
trades.
John Newtson (50:22):
But it's not a marketing gimmick or it's not a
repackaging of other things tomake it seem like 1000% gains.
It's.
Here is a real money trackrecord.
Yeah, I actually made thesetrades.
Here's the stuff.
Yeah, that's.
There's a, there's an immediacyand I think power to that.
(50:44):
That's different thanrepackaging stuff that like, oh,
this could, if you got in hereand got out there, he could have
made this.
Um, you know what I mean?
There's a.
The visceralness gets lost inthat.
Chris Cimorelli (50:56):
In my in kudos to those copywriters who know
how to write that copy, becauseI don't know how to do it.
Like I'm I'm very simple.
In some ways.
It's why I tried to get as muchactual financial knowledge as I
can, because I'm like I don'tknow how to do some of this
clever shit y'all are doing,like this thing and stuff.
I'm like I'm just like, how didyou get so creative to
(51:17):
manufacture an argument thatdoesn't really exist?
I'm like I'm like like kudos.
Honestly, I'm like, yeah right,you're a better sales person
than I am.
Um, I have to rely on real,actual, tangible, physical
evidence.
John Newtson (51:38):
Um, no, but so so yeah, you're an embarrassment
okay, just an embarrassment it'sjust an embarrassment, like you
can't just manufacture stuffout of your ass and sell it I
don't, I don't, I'm not good atit, I'm really not no, that's
not, I don't think.
I see, I see really creativepromotion sometimes and I'm
really not.
Chris Cimorelli (51:54):
No, that's not, I don't think that's anything
to be ashamed of.
I see, I see really creativepromotion sometimes and I'm like
I can't do that and it makes mefeel very inadequate actually.
Or I'm like yeah, like I.
John Newtson (52:02):
I'm like I don't know, this is just something
about, like the, I think,careers is you figure out what
this is?
Chris Cimorelli (52:11):
not trying to do the things.
John Newtson (52:13):
Yeah, absolutely true, yeah, yeah, and so, and
you're, and you know, yourmarket always comes back around.
You know, one of the one of thethings when clayton uh, maybe
he's passed away um, uh, youknow, one of the many tragedies
of that was that I felt like,for for the last part of his
career, the market was not hismarket, right, like, um, he
(52:35):
killed it in times of anxiety,times of fear, times of, and so
I felt like, you know,post-covid, like when things got
set, like that was exactly thetime, like we're entering a
market that like he had crushedit again, um, because it's the
kind of thing that he did sowell, and so, like, yeah, I was
(52:57):
like you know but Well, I dothink that there is an emerging
renaissance for people who whowant to claim it, and I am also
very glad that there is sometalks about how this promotion
reinvigorated the industry.
Chris Cimorelli (53:12):
It's not the best promotion ever.
It has not even broken 10million yet it will when we do a
second campaign with it, whichwe will do.
Obviously, there's a promotionout there that have done 30, 20,
$30 million.
However, it is a sign that like, oh, we're not, we're not,
we're not out, we're not done.
John Newtson (53:30):
I mean it's been, it's been a minute.
Chris Cimorelli (53:38):
It has.
You know, it was the best oneday sales number in agora in, I
think, six and a half, sevenyears.
Yeah, so it feels good for alot of people.
Um, because 2020 and 2021 arealso pretty decent freaking
years and we beat that too, yousaid you said.
John Newtson (53:50):
You said something to me before too that I thought
was really interesting.
Interesting just to wrap it upwith, was that you didn't say it
this way, but in my head Iheard it a little bit, like a
little bit, there's a little bitof an aspect of the four minute
mile here where we stoppedbelieving that we could do this
again.
Yeah right, and that that isone of those things.
(54:11):
If you, if you kind of likeelaborate on that.
Chris Cimorelli (54:15):
I think that's a great way to end this call,
cause I do have to jump onto ourthree o'clock copy call at
paradigm in in about one minute.
Um, I can be a minute late.
I've I've got a little bit ofof wiggle room with them now.
Um, it is the the problem ofself-limiting beliefs and this
is, this is something you see inlike a lot of the old school,
(54:38):
like dating copy, like you knowthat stuff that you like
stumbled upon at like 1 am.
It's like this guy has thesecret formula to make women
love you.
It's all about self-limitingbeliefs and I don't like being
underestimated.
I've never underestimatedmyself.
I've always held myself to ahigh standard and this is going
to be a big message in my 10Xtrader promotion is I wanted to
(54:58):
believe that 1000% gains arepossible.
I manifested that shit.
But it really is just aboutchoosing to believe that this
can be done and then just goingand doing it and doing the hard
work, but also enjoying thejourney and loving the process
and really, really, you have tohave joy in it.
You really do.
For me, the money is not thefirst thing, it is.
(55:20):
I genuinely enjoy working inthis business, these kind of
intellectual conversations thatalso have to do with business,
but just finding truth or whatkeep me alive.
Quite frankly, I would blow myhead off if all I did was just
like have mind-numbingconversations all day, or it was
just honestly probably stillteaching.
That probably would have killedme too.
But I I think, yeah, just justbelieving that it can be done to
(55:42):
remove your self-limitingbeliefs, because they are
probably killing you in yourbusiness.
And with that said, john, thankyou sir, go ahead, please wrap
it up.
John Newtson (55:51):
No, no, I was just gonna finish, I was just gonna
say thanks for doing this and Ithink with that, like the way
that, like that, that belief inthe copy is, is that like, don't
believe that it's good enough,go back to it and be like, how
can you make this excellent,because it's gonna matter and
you know, like some of my bestpromotions at banyan, like I
wrote this first called onetrade.
Chris Cimorelli (56:10):
I literally spent 18 months writing that
promotion.
I don't know how I took thatlong, but it ended up being like
$10 million promotion.
It was worth it.
Um, but that's extreme.
We don't have that kind of timethese days.
But go back and rewrite it.
You're never, ever, ever goingto get it right.
And first try.
Awesome, okay, all right.
John Newtson (56:31):
Thanks, hey, man, this is great, that's okay, all
right, thanks.
Chris Cimorelli (56:32):
Chris, hey man, this is great, this is awesome,
you're amazing, same Same.
John Newtson (56:37):
Love talking to you.
Love talking to you.
You too, dude, all right, takecare.
Bye, you too, bye.
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