Copywriting for financial newsletters with Patrick Bove, top FinPub Copy Chief

Patrick Bove is copy chief at Legacy Reserach.

He's been writing copy in financial since 2008.

And has a growing team of nearly 30 copywriters writing for him.

In this conversation, Patrick explains what ideas are selling now.

The market has changed.

That means the ideas you use to sell subscriptions has to change, too.

Patrick talks about the current hot spots in the market. 

More fundamentally, he talks about how your promotional copy has to adjust to the market conditions. 

When I asked Patrick about what ideas are working now in Finpub he did NOT start talking about promotion types - he started talking about interest rates.

And how interest rates are impacting the world.

Why? Because when the market environment changes on a fundamental level, the ideas customers respond to also have to change.

"Yesterday's big promos are just fossils. You can't dig them up and make them work the same way."

In this conversation, Patrick also invites any copywriter who has sold $10 million or more in a year, or 50,000 front-end names in a year to join him at the Legacy Research Conversion Summit, an invite-only financial copywriter meeting with many of the top performing copywriters in the industry to talk copy.

FinPub Pro is produced by The Financial Marketing Summit, the #1 networking and marketing conference for financial newsletter publishers, trader educators, and digital financial media.

John Newtson, host and founder of The Financial Marketing Summit can be reached via LinkedIn at John Newtson

Episode Transcript

John Newtson (00:02):
All right.
Hey everyone.
I'm excited today to havePatrick Bove, who is the copy
chief over at Legacy Research,with us.
Patrick, thanks for being here.

Patrick Bove (00:08):
Oh, good to be here, John.

John Newtson (00:11):
I'm excited to talk to you because you have
been a copy chief in the spacefor quite a while now, Going
back to your Stansberry before.
How long have you been writingcopy?

Patrick Bove (00:21):
Almost five years.
I mean copy chief chief forfive years writing copy, since
about 2008.

John Newtson (00:26):
So the last, the last worldwide meltdown um, I've
come full cycle one of the few,few people who are still here
who've survived and thrived umsince then.
Um, and I guess that's actuallymaybe a great kind of place to
jump into this is that there's alot of things we can talk about
with copy.
But I am fascinated right nowwith kind of the groups who are

(00:52):
capturing the current state ofthe market successfully and
people who still haven't quitegotten the message.
That kind of what you talkabout is different.
So how would you characterize,like the change that we've seen
over the last few years andmaybe even throw it back to 2008
?
What do you see as different orthe same?

Patrick Bove (01:13):
I think it's just as dramatic, or worse
potentially than that, and it'shaving lived through those
cycles, you know this is alearning-based business, which
is amazing, right?
We all get to think and writeand measure the results and we
know, either anecdotally orthrough working in a business,

(01:35):
what's working and we try to domore of what's working, less of
what's not.
And when you end up in a biglong-running trend, whatever it
is, you can get reallycomfortable.
And it is a wonderful thingbecause you the beginnings of

(02:04):
this business really which arenot literally the beginnings,
but let's just say thebeginnings of Agora, because
that was such a big developmentthe growth and flourishing of
these businesses has beenperfectly correlated with
falling interest rates.
They did nothing but fallthrough practically the entire
history of this business, with afew ups and downs along the way

(02:26):
, but the general trend was downand most people don't want to
talk about interest ratesbecause on the surface, of
course, they're very boring andI don't generally like to talk
about them either.
But the price of money is themost important price in the
world, as it's been said, and itaffects us because, hey, when
money's cheap or free assetstend to levitate, just about

(02:48):
anything goes up.
You have crazy things like theNFT boom.
You have people piling intocollectibles and it's
predictable and exciting andit's a different sort of market
to sell into.
But when the price of money isrising, all of a sudden there's
an opportunity cost to takingthat risk when you could have 5%
, 6% risk-free.

(03:09):
And so investors are not asexcited, not ready to throw down
.
They're just a bit on the fence, a bit more skeptical, and
that's the environment we're innow.
But the strange thing is isit's not, I would not say at all
, we're in a bearish market.
In the newsletter businesstoday.
My fear is that we're goinginto a massive bear market, but

(03:31):
today at least, there are stillpockets of excitement and greed.
In crypto, bitcoin's had afantastic year, no question.
In AI, well, you could argue AImay be holding the entire stock
market up, when you talk aboutthe Magnificent Seven and those
giant tech stocks that areliterally dragging the Nasdaq
higher while the rest of thecompanies are floundering.

(03:52):
It's a pretty strange timebecause we have this kind of a
splintering going on in themarket, where there's tons of
things to be afraid of for sureor concerned about, but there's
a lot to be excited about aswell.
So we end up with this kind ofa weird blended market and,
depending on what you're selling, that will dictate your
approach, so that will dictate awinning approach.

(04:13):
So the same type of approachthat works right now in crypto
or AI, it may not work in othersectors of the market, and
writers that are a bit tone deafto that for sure they're going
to struggle.
They're 100% going to struggle,because they're not talking to
the customer, they're notentering that conversation.
That's in the customer's mind,as we like to say, has been said

(04:35):
for years, and when we do agood job of that, we tend to
sell a lot more.

John Newtson (04:39):
You know I love and I can't emphasize how much I
love the fact that when I askedyou about what's working in
copyright now, the first thingyou start going to is talking
about the general actual marketenvironment.
And because I do think thatthere's this huge disconnect
with a lot of I would say a lotof not just junior writers,
mid-level writers, but also somepublishers and marketers who

(05:04):
have spent so much time focusedon the craft of marketing and
copy that because of the factthat we were in this environment
that was the longest bullmarket in history, for so long
we're able to not think aboutthe market the way that they
have to now.
And I think that this period oftime demonstrates more than

(05:26):
anything in recent years thatyour business is tied to the
market and copy lives or dies byhow it engages with those ideas
.
Do you find that?
I mean, let me say this firstbut you guys at legacy and I
would say it stands veryberry aswell and over at Investor Place

(05:47):
, I feel like are the groupsthat have most consistently
stayed in what I think of as theclassic newsletter approach of
talking about the markets very,very fundamentally and haven't
strayed from that and justchased, you know, here make a
10,000%.
Here I mean, you're noddingyour head, so I'm assuming you
would agree with that.

Patrick Bove (06:07):
Yeah, I mean there's with few exceptions,
like with crypto, which brokeeverybody's brain with what was
possible.
You know that was.
It's all in context, though.
But yeah, I think there's beena solid investment backing to
this business.
We haven't gone totally crazy,you know.
I think we've shown somerestraint.
It's hard, I mean.

(06:28):
I understand why people do pushthe envelope in a roaring bull
market because there's money tobe made and investors are
willing to believe anything,because anything seems possible.
And it's true.
It's a shared delusion, but themoney is real in the moment.
If you can grab it and reachout and hold on and get out at

(06:49):
the right time.
It's real, but it's a delusionnonetheless.
So I think the best thing youcould ever do is arm your
customers with that informationand just lay out the true risks
upside the downside.
We've done a really good jobhere, talking about position
sizing, which is just huge.
Don't risk more than you canafford to lose.
Don't put more the true risksupside the downside.
We've done a really good jobhere, talking about position
sizing, which is just huge.
Don't risk more than you canafford to lose.
Don't put more than 500 bucksor a thousand bucks into this

(07:11):
little tiny crypto, and we tryour best to do that so that we
don't blow our customers up whenthe market inevitably turns,
because ultimately they're goingto remember, they're going to
resent the fact that if we ledthem down the wrong path.
So that's something that we'realways thinking about and trying
to balance between um, we'renot like we're fiduciaries in a
true financial sense, but tryingto be advocates for our readers

(07:33):
and concerned for their welfare, but at the same time, you know
, we have we're, of course, wehave to sell.
So, um, we have to walk thatline and it's and.
But during the boom years, Ithink just, yeah, it was just
crazy bonkers.
What was going on in themarkets?
All these possibilities werepopping up left and right, all

(07:54):
of them.
There was money floating in theair.
And I remember that feelingbecause when I got, I remember
when I got married in 2006, itwas in Las Vegas and that was
just right into the teeth ofthat housing boom that would
turn into the Great Recession.
And the pastor that married Igot married at the MGM Grand,
and the pastor who married uswas also in real estate, of

(08:14):
course, you know, because it'sVegas, and I remember him saying
, like Patrick, there's justmoney floating in the air.
And there was, there was.
There was cheap money floatingin the air, and when you have
cheap money it has to gosomewhere.
It can't just sit in cash.
It flows into anything that'sreal, tangible or scarce, and
and real estate was one of them.
So and I was a completely newwet behind the ears copywriter

(08:37):
at that point barely evenstarted with copy more on the
editorial side, and I didn'treally truly understand what was
happening.
It just seemed like well, isn'tthat great.
Wow, you could just buysomething and do nothing and its
value will go up, and then youcould make money.
Wow.
And I remember the feeling ofFOMO that existed back there in
the housing market, and Irecognized the feeling of FOMO

(08:58):
so well in myself as an investor.
I'm sure you did too.
When that feeling where youjust feel like this itch like
gosh I don't know if I ownenough it's almost like you're
regretting something that hasn'teven happened yet.
You're picturing yourself inthe future, looking back and
shaking your finger at yourformer self why didn't you take
action?
That's such a powerful feelingand in our business that's a

(09:21):
primary motivating force.
I think a lot of copywritersdon't understand that we don't
create, that we can't trulycreate demand or belief in this
business.
It's very difficult.
You can only do it in rareoccasions when you have an
amazing guru with a followingthat's like deep that's been
with him forever.
They will go follow him intothe desert for sure if he

(09:43):
believes there's water.
But it's very difficult.
You cannot orchestrate belief.
All you can do is channel it.
So when you're in a bull marketit's just diverting this fire
hose of interest and excitement.
In a market like today, well,it's not a trickle, it's not
dripping out of the end of thehose, but it's not pouring out
either.
So you're in a differentenvironment where you can't

(10:05):
assume somebody is just ready tothrow down and buy whatever
you're selling.
You have to really meet themwhere they are and understand
and try to anticipate howthey're going to be feeling from
one quarter to the next.
And that's really difficult.
I think that's what a lot ofguys struggle with.
Is they think of good copy asjust copy that worked in the
past.
I'm going to try to emulate thestructure, I'm going to try to

(10:27):
take this theme.
But they don't realize thatstructure is sort of like the
fossil record.
It's a record of what's workedin the past.
You're digging for dinosaurbones doesn't mean you're going
to bring the dinosaur back.
It doesn't work that way.
You can put it together ondisplay in a museum but it's not
going to roar and shiver andjust like charge down the hall.
It's dead.
It existed and it's informativethat it once did.

(10:50):
Right, there's a history there.
But we can't bring somethingback.
So when the nature of themarket and the feelings
surrounding investing changes,the structure must adapt, and
I'm giving a talk all about thatat the upcoming event we have
in Baltimore.
I think it's really criticalhow structure is in itself a

(11:12):
living thing.
It's not some ossified likefossil that you can just pull
out and write something thatfollows in a precise, you know,
order or architecture thatworked before.
The structure itself is ananswer to the reader's feeling
and objections like and it mustbe suited to the world in which
it's released um, in that momentit's alive.

John Newtson (11:30):
So that's something I've been talking
about no, I love that and that,just um for everyone who who is
listening, the um you guys aredoing a copy or a senior, a
senior copywriting summit.
Um, meet up in balt Baltimorein a couple weeks here and let's
talk about that real quickbefore we go back in, because I

(11:50):
don't want to wait till the endto mention that, because it's
important for anyone out herewho is an experienced veteran
copywriter to know that this isgoing on.
So what do you got going on?
What are you guys doing?

Patrick Bove (12:01):
Yeah, we've never done this before.
It's going to be a lot of fun.
We're trying to attract the toptalent folks who might have an
interest in working with ussomeday.
Honestly, if they work with usor not, I don't really care.
I just love hanging out withgreat copywriters and marketers.
So, either way, if somethingcomes out of it soon or later,
it's really not a concern.

(12:22):
But we're just going to bringsome of the best minds together.
We've assembled a star-studdedcast of folks within MarketWise
to present on our learnings,what we've learned over the past
several years, what's worked,what hasn't worked, what we're
trying now, and we're going tohave a couple of days together
in Baltimore to just sittogether and talk about all

(12:42):
these things, answer questions,share our successes, our fears.
I'm going to be sharing somefears and what I'm doing about
it, about the future and how weadjust with the market.
But yeah, it's going to beunlike anything we've ever done
before.
We have I'll be speaking therewe have Justin Gershwin, who's
one of the top writers atMarketWise.
There we have Andrew Basaja,who's I mean he's sold over a

(13:05):
hundred million worth of copyhimself, you know, at Legacy,
which is just insane in thespace of a couple of years,
which is just mind blowing.
We have we have David Babineau,one of our top copywriters,
here, ryan Markish, johnAlexander, our marketing
director, so we're we got ourall-star cast together, and
Evaldo Albuquerque is going tobe there as well, which is

(13:25):
fantastic.
You know he's going to give atalk.
So, yeah, there's a lot tolearn, a lot to think about at a
time like this, a lot toreflect on, and we just want to
get together with somelike-minded folks who are really
at the top of their game andjust share what we've learned
and get to know them a littlebit better and just hang out for
a couple of days, and it justseems like the right thing to do
.
You know this business, you knowit continues to shrink in a

(13:49):
strange way.
You know there's a lot of andthere's businesses that go away
and there's businesses that getabsorbed, you know, and
market-wise, strangely, hasbecome this new Agora.
I mean, I never would havethought it would have happened
this fast.
It's really.
When I came down here in 2019,agora was still thriving.
Um, but now a lot of the talenthas been absorbed into our

(14:12):
business and it just seems likethat's, that's the trend, which
is, um, I'm, and I'm sad.
I'm sad for the industry thatthat's happened, in a way,
because it's I really thrive onthe competition I love.
I love this marketplace ofideas we all created and how we
could all learn from each other.
I don't think this is apermanent condition of shrinkage
, I just think it's cyclical.
But in the meantime it's goodfor legacy, it's good for our

(14:33):
business because it brings usinto contact with all these
incredibly talented people whomay have never even moved.
If everything else was goingsmoothly, they would have no
reason to go anywhere, they werehappy.
But now it just gives us achance to get to know them, to
work with them.
So we're really assembling thisunthinkably incredible team

(14:54):
across the business and I justfeel like, week after week,
month after month, it's likeupgrade, upgrade, upgrade.
Oh my gosh, we get to work withthis guy.
So it's an exciting time in thatway, which is great, because I
think when you have so manygreat minds together and they're
willing to work together andhelp each other, wonderful
things can happen.
You know that learning machineI talked about.

(15:15):
It gets kicked into overdrive.
You learn faster, you iteratefaster, you figure out what's
working faster because you haveall these bright minds working
on it, and as copy chief, my jobis essentially you figure out
what's working faster becauseyou have all these bright minds
working on it, and as copy chief, my job is essentially just to
make their life easy and justsmooth the way.
So, and if I can do that welland I'm working with the
brightest people I can then mylife gets easier too, because I

(15:38):
don't have to jump in and meddleas much.

John Newtson (15:45):
Right, right, yeah , no, I'm excited Ryan invited
me to come up for that, so I'mI'm gonna pop up there, uh, and
I'm really looking forward to it.
Um, and if anyone isn't, so who?
Who would be invited?

Patrick Bove (15:51):
then we're looking for just like senior level
riders who have sold, you know,at least at least 10 million in
a year and on the back end, andmaybe like 50 000 names on the
front end, just folks who'vebeen knocking around for a while
, who just know their stuff andyou know there'll be a time and
place for folks who haven't madeit to that level.
We're just not looking to builda junior class right now and

(16:11):
we've completely retooled ourbusiness over the past year, so
the greatest focus right now isgetting actualizing all those
gurus and all those franchiseswithin our business.
So in order to do that we can'tdo that with junior level
talent.
I don't have time really totrain a class of juniors we need
to bring in the top talent wecould possibly find with a
proven track record and pairthem up with these editors and

(16:34):
grow their businesses.
We had the last, so 2022 wasjust god awful for everybody, of
course, and this year has beenbetter.
But through this, through thechallenging market that we faced
those past two years, we'vewe've really completely retooled
our editorial side of thebusiness.
We brought on so many new guruswith so much potential.

(16:57):
But but of course, it takes alot of effort and time to to get
these guys up and running, toget them a proper front end, to
really just shine up their backend, just make it sparkle.
We need the best people onearth to really help us do that.
We couldn't really do it withthe team we had already.
We're just not big enough.

(17:17):
We've been on a quest to findand hire and work with the
brightest talent we can.
We don't care where they work,where they're from.
There's a bunch of guys I'vejust signed up for tire kicker
deals to say let's take it for atest drive.
There's other ones who are oncontract.
There's other ones who are inhouse, really flexible about
that sort of thing.
But that's what this is allabout.
We're just.
We had this drastic need in thebusiness for the top talent to

(17:40):
come in and help launch and growthese individual franchises.
And so next year yeah, if the if, of course, if the market would
just cooperate.
If a market just goes sideways,I, if it goes up, we're golden.
If it goes sideways, we'regoing to be fine.
That would be the perfectgrowth environment.
If it goes down, well, youalways have to adjust.

(18:00):
You have to find what's workingand what's not and retool.
You have to stay flexible inthis line of work, but I want to
be in the foxhole with the bestpeople possible.
If the worst was to come, Iwant to be in that foxhole with
the most talented copywriters inthe world, and if the best is
to come, I still want thatbecause we're going to make tons

(18:22):
of money.
So, either way, all roads leadto that outcome.

John Newtson (18:25):
Yeah Well, it's funny, I think, of this business
as kind of having, when a bearmarket hits, you have a double
bear market, right, you have theactual market, and then you
have this period of time aspeople slowly, never all at once
start to realize that theirmessaging has to change and in

(18:50):
some cases their products haveto change in order to meet the
new market environment and thatis, and so it extends the bear
market for the publisher in apainful way, and so that's part
of like, I guess, the disciplineof publishing is knowing when
to kind of hey, this is a newenvironment, this is not just a
bad quarter or two, and thenswitching to what that new
environment messaging is.
Yeah, and there's always a lagyeah, yeah, I remember this from
2008 and 2009.
It was like, um, you know, themarket was going up for for a

(19:14):
while before people really wereable to capture it from a copy
perspective on a consistentbasis.
Anyway, uh, because, the fear inthe market is different than
the, the greed boom times.
That like tentativeness of theprospect in the reader, uh is a
different thing.
It's a different feeling.

(19:36):
And then, even on top of that,then you have new business
opportunities, new investmentopportunities.
They shift and they change.
And now there's maybe a newsector and there's a new thing
that you have to look for.
And if you're not payingattention to that and you're
still focused on you know kindof like to your point to look
for, and if you're not payingattention to that and you're
still focused on, kind of liketo your point of the fossilized
copy, if you wrote a brick promoright now, nobody wants to hear

(19:58):
about it.

Patrick Bove (19:59):
It doesn't even matter.
That's the thing.
It doesn't even matter if it'strue, if the bricks are going to
rise up and take over.
That's just such, at best, alatent fear.
It's just not even there.
Forget about top of mind, and Ithink that's what a lot of guys
have to understand.
I think in a bullish market youcan take on more quote unquote
vanity projects at less risk,and I define a vanity project as

(20:20):
something like you personally,as a copywriter or marketer, are
passionate about.
But in this kind of marketthat'll kill you.
You just can't.
You got to be right over thetarget, intentionally over the
target.
You have to really understandyour customer, what they're
feeling.
You have to understand theasset class you're writing about
and what the psychology in thatcorner of the market is.
Otherwise, no amount of copytalent will matter.

(20:41):
If, if, if, the idea andexecution is wrong, it's.
It's just impossible.

John Newtson (20:46):
So, as copy chief, how do you, how do you kind of
get your team focused in theareas that are like kind of the
highest likelihood of successthen in in this environment or
any environment?
How does that work?
How do you work together with?
Do you have researchers?
Do you have regular editorialconversations Like how, what's
that look like for you guys?

Patrick Bove (21:10):
The more in a bullish market it was obviously.
I'll just say the contrast,because I think it's important
In the bullish market.
It's easy, because it'sforgiving.
It's very forgiving of mistakes.
It's bowling with bumpers.
It's bowling with bumpers.
People have to admit that Now,when I bowl with bumpers, I
still don't bowl 300.
A pro is still going to smokeme, and there's some great
copywriters who made a ton ofmoney and were extremely
successful in the bull market.
There's some mediocrecopywriters who did well, but

(21:33):
there's a big gap between them.
So there's always going to bethat skills gap, no matter what
type of market we're in.
In a bear market, though, thereare no bumpers, so there are
gutter balls, there's risk,there's a chance that what you
write is not going to work, andso I take a different management
approach.
I'm taking one now, and I'mgoing to continue to have a

(21:56):
different approach if the marketgets less hospitable, to help
gently drag people over thetarget and really just try to,
because ultimately, I mean mostcopywriters they don't want to
hear the word no and theycertainly don't want to be
controlled and I don't want tocontrol anybody, to be honest
but but if it's, if they'regoing to bet three months of
their life on a project like Ihave to.
I have to.

(22:16):
I'm protecting them in a sense,like I'm protecting or I'm
trying to coach them to focus onthe right areas of the market.
So the more, the more difficultthe market would become, the
more hands-on I would become asa copy chief, just to make sure
that we get everything possibleout of what folks are working on
and that I'm alerting them toexactly what's working.
I'm sharing a running dialogueabout what's happening in the

(22:37):
market, what it's likely to mean, and we can't just go out now
and bang the money drum like youcould during the bull market.
I felt like watching thatmarket.
It was crazy.
It was just a parade going downthe street, make money, make
money, make money and thenbanging the drum and people are
running out onto the street justshoving dollars at you.
It was that simple, but nowwe're not in that market.

(23:00):
So if I see somebody writingsomething that would appeal to a
more bullish reader right now,we're going to be really careful
about it.
Unless it's about if it's aboutcrypto, fine, game on, because
crypto is doing great.
The halving is coming up nextyear.
If it's about AI, well, there'sso much potential there in AI,
maybe it's even bigger thancrypto.
But if it's for an out of favorsector of the market, then we

(23:20):
just have to address itdifferently.
And ultimately, what everybodyhas to do if they want to
succeed and survive in adifficult market is become a
better storyteller.
Really, you need to invest yourown money.
There's no exceptions to that.
You can't pretend.
You have to invest your ownmoney.
You have to absorb thepsychology of the market and

(23:41):
write stories that would appealto actual investors.
It shifts.
I was thinking this morning.
I came up with this whole sellthe sizzle, not the steak, thing
is a classic advertising tropeand it's a cliche because it's
generally true.
But the difference is in a bullmarket, you sell the sizzle.
That's all people want issizzle.
In a bear market, there ain'tno sizzle.

(24:04):
You got to sell the steak, andif you don't have steak, you're
not selling anything.
So by stake I mean like realhardcore, like investing stories
that appeal to diehardinvestors, not gamblers, diehard
investors and that's thebalance, I think.
And so a lot of thesebusinesses in a bull market will
orient themselves towardgambling because people want to

(24:25):
gamble, they're in the mood togamble, they've had a couple of
drinks.
They're in a casino, they'refeeling flush, they're in the
mood to gamble.
They've had a couple of drinks,they're in a casino, they're
feeling flush, they're going tothrow down In this market.
No, this is like a bit of a.
It could be a bit of a hangover, or it could be, or it just
could be a bit more stressful ornot as not as excited as that.
So you can't.
You can't talk to them the sameway, and that's what I call

(24:46):
just selling the steak, like you, and that's what I call just
selling the stake.
You have to learn how to sellthe stake, because anybody can
sell the sizzle and do all rightin a bull market, but selling
the stake is much more difficultand it's also it's not all on

(25:08):
you.
You have to're not sort ofproducts that could profit from
or minimize damage in a bearmarket.
Then you got some troublebecause you could only sell what
you have.
And luckily in this business, atMarketWise, we have this
amazing portfolio of products tosell.
Legacy we do.
We've been developing it,retooling the business, trying
to do the best we can.
It's not perfect, we've got afew holes, but we're working on

(25:31):
it.
You know, like we always are,you can never you never truly
have everything covered, becauseyou can't.
You can't have all the expertsin the world working in your
business.
But we just do the best we canover time and we play the long
game and we try to bring themost brilliant people into the
business we can so that, so wetruly do have transformative
products to sell, which makes acopywriter's job a lot easier

(25:53):
yeah, I remember when I, when,when I had interviewed porter on
this channel, he, um, he saidsomething that was awesome.

John Newtson (26:01):
He said a lot of things are awesome, but one of
the things he said that was so,so like memorable was that he
was talking about um.
Is it david ifrag?
I can't remember if it was himor whoever does biotech?
Um, oh, last minute, lastminute, that's it.
Um, and how you know, he goesto all the conferences in
biotech.
He's up to date on all thedifferent things.

(26:23):
He spent a lot of money to gethim.
He's a.
He's a very expensive editorbecause he has.
He could be in hedge fundsomewhere.
Um, but when he writes, there'sa density of information there
that makes it interesting to aactual investor.
And then porter drew that overto.
This is why I want to put likeour promos are dense with actual

(26:45):
information, because we'retalking to actual investors who
have skin in the game, versuskind of the.
You know someone who has.
You know I have $5,000.
I'm gonna spend 2000 of it tobuy this product.
Tell me how to become amillionaire is very different
than someone who's like I don'twant to lose my life savings and
I have a big one.

Patrick Bove (27:05):
Yeah, yeah, and that's, that's who we want to
attract to the businessUltimately, people that are
doing this.
I mean, we all feel like wehave to invest one way or the
other, but the people arechoosing it for themselves and
who who love it, they want tolearn more.
That enjoy it.
Enjoy the process of, likefiguring out what's going to go
up the most or what's not goingto go down and why.
So it's entertaining, like tothat audience.
It's entertaining, it's notboring, it's entertaining, like

(27:26):
to that audience.
It's entertaining, it's notboring, it's entertaining.
So if a copywriter is bored bythis, they're in the wrong
business.
You know, like there's there'sonly a couple of guys I've seen
who are, um, outwardly bored,who were successful because
that's, they were supremetalents, they would have been
successful at anything, butthey're the outliers.
You know, like for for the guywho's like somewhere in the

(27:46):
middle of the pack, like there'sno chance if you're not geeked
out on this stuff, there's justno chance and it's just going to
seem like a ton of work, um,and you're not going to want to
be able to adapt and roll withthe market.
So I've always been.
I've been geeked out on it eversince I read bill bonner's
empire of debt years ago, backin 2005, before I even started
working at agora, and that's histhinking resonated with me on

(28:08):
such a deep level and justopened my eyes to how this world
is working and with respect tothe government and money
printing and debt and the waythat I hadn't thought of before
and that sent me on this path.
So I've been on this constantquest to learn more and
understand it myself ever since,and I'm a diehard newsletter
reader.
I love reading newsletters ours, other folks, I mean I collect
them.
So, yeah, I mean I think thathelps you connect with a

(28:32):
customer.
You could really embrace thatperspective I want to sell to
diehard newsletter readers wholove investing, who want to
learn more about investing.
Ultimately, what Porter provedis that when you do that well,
you attract a tribe thatresonates with you and is going
to stick around beyond just thebull market.
I don't want to attract a bunchof good time Charlies who are

(28:52):
only here just to throw down andgamble and then when the music
stops, they're out the door andultimately, that's the challenge
of these businesses andnavigating these big shifts in
the market to not shut yourselfoff from what could be very
profitable, but not go so fardown that path that you lose

(29:12):
perspective or you're panderingto the wrong audience, who's
only there for a good time, fora few minutes, versus sticking
around.

John Newtson (29:21):
Yeah, and it is.
It's such an interestingbusiness because it's like, on
the one hand, you could look atit through the lens of it's
almost like a macro fund, whereyou have to identify big trends
and ideas and you have to thengo attract investors in this
case, subscribers around thoseideas and they have to be
correct in order to keep thoseguys coming.

(29:51):
There's an element of on theextreme end, you could say
InfoWars as a media businessthat has to be in a digital
environment, a little bit morehyperbolic, a little bit more
bombastic or a little bit morechallenging, at the very least,
and then it's just a pure form,direct response marketing
business, and so it's like thisthree-legged beast of a business
that makes it so fascinating tobe a copywriter or marketer, if
you love ideas anyway.

Patrick Bove (30:10):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, you got to love ideas tobe successful in this business
and you got to be nimble too.
It's just what's coming.
I mean, I think copywritersmost of the time if you told
them a stock went up 10X, they'dsay, wow, what was that?
Most investors would say that'snotable.
That's something I want to getin on.
And that's back to interestrates.

(30:31):
That's just what's happened tojust about like up nine X in two
years.
Yawn, you know nobody cares, butbut I think this is this is one
of those moments that's goingto separate the the greats from
this.
Not so greats.
You know, the ones who actuallysee what's happening and get
ready and adjust are going to doextremely well, and the ones
that don't are going to aregoing to do extremely well and
the ones that don't are going tounfortunately suffer.

(30:52):
It's just that's the fact.
And I think the best part aboutbeing nimble and being
connected to your audience likethis is that you're able to make
those changes.
And then, if you're bearish andyou're thinking and you're
wrong, who cares?
We all know what to do in abull market.
It's not hard.
We all know what to do.
It's just much easier.
The hardest thing about sellingin a bull market is

(31:13):
differentiating yourself,because everywhere you look,
people are one-upping each otherwith their promises and their
stories.
The challenge is how do Iiterate this idea in a way
that's not ridiculous, but in away that's still exciting and
not boring to the reader In asideways to bearish market?
It's just different.
I oddly, oddly enough, preferwriting in a more bearish market
.
I prefer it because I like thechallenge.

(31:35):
I know most copywriters wouldnot say that, but I've been
through a couple of those movesand I really, just, I just
deeply enjoy it because becauseI think there's something about,
there's something aboutsuffering that makes you
stronger.
There's something about likeyou go through something
difficult that's beyond yourcontrol and you tame it or you

(31:56):
survive it, or you come out theother end.
You're just like you know what.
That wasn't so bad.
I got this.
I know, I understand, Iunderstand.
But a lot of guys in thisbusiness they came into it after
2008, after 2009.
All they know is up, and so Ithink that's my biggest concern

(32:20):
for when it comes to my team,just like how do I help them
adapt as a copy chief?
How do I help them anticipatewithout you know, like, without
leading them to, to, to, withoutmaking them move too early.
It's just to put it that way,cause we can't lead the market
either.
The market's not bearish yet,but that doesn't.
And maybe, maybe like if itdoesn't matter.

(32:42):
If I had perfect vision thatnext year the Dow is going to
collapse 50% and NASDAQ's down80%, I'm not saying I'm thinking
that's going to happen.
But even if I had perfectvision of that, it wouldn't help
me sell right now.
Nobody's going to believe thatand then or the folks who do
believe it, they're going to beso scared out of their mind
they're probably not going towant to buy anything else.
So, either way, it's a losingproposition to be ahead of your

(33:04):
market.
You have to be in tune with themarket.
But yeah, that's the challenge Ihave as a chief is to really
just sort of think, think deeply, try to interpret what's
happening, make the besteducated guesses.
I can and and and coach theteam to the right decisions.
You know, and, and I love it.
You know when it works great.
It's better feeling thanwriting a winning promo, when
you when, as a chief, to workwith somebody and help help them

(33:26):
knock something out of the park, even from behind the scenes,
even though my name's not on it.
I love that feeling because itkeeps the most talented guys
really engaged and we're allhigh-fiving, we're having a good
time.
So that's what I live for as acopy chief to find and recruit
the best talent and just givethem that pathway to success.
It's so much fun.
I mean, I'm naturally a teacherat heart.

(33:48):
I didn't go into teaching.
I told my mom when I wasgrowing up, like why is every
job I want to do a poverty job?
And I said now I know why youwanted to join the peace corps.
So, uh, but thankfullycopywriting is not that type of
type of job.
And, um, I found that outletfor teaching as a chief.
You know where I could helphelp other folks this way that

(34:09):
we've been talking about yeah,that's great to think the.

John Newtson (34:13):
There's something too about the selling in the,
the bear market is that there'slike in 2008 and this is we are
not in the 2008 situation.
It's a different disaster insome places, in opportunity, and
it's almost like in 2008,.
You had an extreme, almostcatalytic disaster.
That was extreme fear, um, andthen you have, like, this

(34:35):
building of almost it'suncertainty, but then anger
comes with it and there is thispart of any bear market that I
feel like that once you get pastthe, the recognition, it's like
the four stages of grief, youget to that anger stage and then
the copy targeting those people, like when they're mad about,

(34:55):
like because now it's like thegovernment's messed up,
somebody's doing something right.
And some of my favorite promosas a, you know, as a copywriter,
when I was writing and thenalso looking back on and you
know, have been those fearpromos now, even back into the
90s, direct mail.
I remember, like you know, um,or or anger promos, I should say
, because it's not, it's angerpromos.

(35:16):
I remember clayton make peacehad one and it was shameless,
two-faced sobs and it hadpictures of, like, the ceos of
all these companies who, um,they showed that they were
selling stock while tellingeverybody else it was by and it
was like this.
You know duplicitous nature andit's like anger is a powerful
promo.
Um, that's not greed on theface, but it's such a powerful

(35:40):
emotion oh, you can chat, youcan channel it.

Patrick Bove (35:43):
That's the thing.
Like we, we can take, uh, anger, greed, fear and and channel it
.
If you can, if you can handle,if you can do that as a
copywriter, you're gonna make aton of money in any, in any
market.
And, um, yeah, that anger is alive wire, I mean with the whole
occupy wall street movement,with the bailouts and the
controversy around that.
And then, yeah, it's just thesense that it's so unfair and

(36:07):
that's what's building.
I think right now that themasses are absolutely seething
and nobody gives a damn, likenobody in Washington, nobody in
Wall Street.
They don't care.
But it's just building andbuilding.
If you're on social media, youreally can tap into it and just
see this growing frustration anddespair and just sense that the

(36:28):
world is just like it's beyond.
It was always tilted, it wasalways rigged and it always will
be.
I think we tolerate that.
We tolerate that when we canachieve what we set out to do in
life, we feel like life'sgetting a little bit better
every year.
I can take care of my family, Icould pay the rent, I could buy
the house I want, I can savefor retirement, like we'll put
up with a whole bunch of BS when, when we ourselves are are

(36:52):
thriving in some way.
But when people feel likethey're not thriving, then then
that whole thing gets throwninto reverse.
And the difference this time, Ibelieve, is that I just don't
think there's anything thegovernment or the federal
reserve could do to get us outof whatever's coming, because,
uh, they can't cut rates right,they can't stimulate too hard

(37:12):
because inflation is so high.
If they do that, then they'regoing to kick us another step
closer to hyperinflation, um,but if they raise them too high,
they could kick us intodeflation.
So they're so.
They're kind of, they're kindof stuck and all their favorite
tools are, unless they caninvent some other way, I don't
know what, like the time machinebailout.

(37:33):
I don't know how do you fix it,inject the money into I don't
even know what, how you wouldfix what we're in.
So, um, and you hear a lot ofsmart people saying we're
heading for a repeat of theseventies.
I don't know if that's true,but if we are, that's really
exciting to me, cause I lovetelling a good oil story or a
gold story.
Um, there's plenty ofopportunities there and we'll
we'll know what we're in when weget to it.

(37:54):
It'll be pretty clear andobvious when we're in it.
Um, but it's, it's.
It's interesting, it'sfascinating to try to wonder and
anticipate.
But yeah, there's really nogoing back to the bubble era.
Whatever comes next is going tobe completely different and
we're just going to have toadjust on the fly, like we

(38:14):
always do, and do our best tofocus in on the best, most
believable stories and helppeople navigate and manage their
money so they can actually makemoney and not get blown up.
And that's what makes thisbusiness so fascinating.
I think I've heard from otherfolks who work in, maybe, the
health space that it's a bitboring because the health world
doesn't change that much.
There's the same problems, thesame issues, similar solutions

(38:37):
and there's not that much in theway of innovation.
But our world, the financialworld, is constantly changing
and you better be on your toesand it's really stimulating and
a lot of fun.
So we have this.
I almost I think of ourbusinesses having this almost
like not quite divine, but likea sacred duty to help people
understand what's being done tothem and what they can do about

(39:00):
it, and that that, just thatsense just flows through
everything that I do, I'mobsessed with it.
I love, I love our customers.
I just love.
Whenever I get a chance to meetthem rarely, it's just like man
, these are my people.
Like I just love these people.
They're just.
I love people that arecontrarian.
I love people that question thestatus quo you know that just
don't just take whatever said atface value and who are

(39:21):
responsible enough to think forthemselves and do something
about it.
Like these are the best peopleon earth.
Like this is the and it's aprivilege to serve them.
So, yeah, I feel like I'mdefinitely in the right place.

John Newtson (39:34):
I love, I love this, having having been in a
position where I've talked tomost not everyone in the
industry, but a lot of them.
It's such a contrast to hearyou say that to some other
groups and some that are nolonger around that were big at
one point, to some of the keyplayers having the exact
opposite perspective on theircustomer, thinking that they

(39:56):
were rubes, thinking that theyhated them.
They were politically different.
They were, and they theyloathed the customer, um, and
how toxic that is to a businessin general, but also like wants
to live that way.

Patrick Bove (40:08):
Like oh yeah, I couldn't do it.
I mean I, I mean there's surethere's plenty of gullible
people out there, but I don'twant them as customers.
I don't want to.
They're the worst customers.
Talk about a customer servicenightmare.
I mean I I don't even know likewhy and I and I pushed our
copywriters on that a lot I'mjust I'll be really blunt.
I'm saying the way you wrotethis, we're only going to
attract a bunch of idiots.

(40:28):
Like why are you writing itthis way?
Like this is just surface level, there's nothing there.
I don't want that person as acustomer.
Like how about?
How about we upgrade this a bitso that that'll occasionally
happen?
Yeah, so that'll occasionallyhappen.
Yeah, and I think and people arewe have to be careful too,
because we can't as a business,like you can make money in the
short term attracting a moredesperate type of person to the

(40:52):
business because they have apressing need and they're
looking for a solution.
But if you fail them, then it'sa disaster and then it invites
all kinds of unwanted thingslike regulation and inquiry.
None of us want any of that.
So I think the best we can dois just faithfully serve that
customer and love the customerand be the customer Like I am a
customer like I'm with, I'mstanding shoulder to shoulder

(41:14):
with them.
I, if I felt like we were inthe business where we're
steering them the wrong way, Iwouldn't want any part of it.
I can't imagine, I can'timagine working that way.
I just were steering them thewrong way.
I wouldn't want any part of it.
I can't imagine, I can'timagine working that way.
I just I, I just can't, Icouldn't do it, I couldn't do it
.
So, yeah, and I, and there'snobody else, we have to do this
because there's just, I meanthere are independent voices,
thank goodness, springing upeverywhere on Twitter and on a

(41:35):
sub stack, for sure, I meanthere's, we're not the only game
in town anymore, but and thankgoodness for that, I think
that's great.
I mean, hopefully, in a perfectworld, they could be our farm
team.
I don't know.
I don't know, or maybe they getso big they don't need to even
work with us, but I don't know.
There's just something.
There's something great aboutbeing independent.

(41:55):
There's something just trulywonderful about not being
beholden to any advertisers,Because you see it all the time.
You know, like the foodcompanies that are poisoning our
children, they're alsoadvertising like mad on TV and
radio and so in the newspapers.
They're not going to discreditthem, they're not going to call
them out ever.
Pharmaceutical companies, thereare all kinds of things that
are being done to us incorrectlyor with malintent, and there's

(42:23):
nobody else out there raising,raising the alarm.
So, our, our business, um, we'renot a perfect business and we
make mistakes, you know for sure, and we pay for them.
But, uh, but, the intention isalways to help and to expose the
truth and um, and thankgoodness we can.
You know cause, uh, and I thinkI think, if we're truly going
into a fourth turning typescenario, our business could be

(42:46):
in an incredible place.
It could have an even moreimportant role to play.
You know, there's just, uh, itcould, it could be, I, I think
it could take on the qualitiesof a mass movement.
You know, if we play our cardsright and connect with the right
people, uh, it could be asocial force for good.

John Newtson (43:00):
Well, Well, I definitely think that you also
look at the generation ofjournalism and, from a business
model standpoint, most of themedia sources anymore do not
have a model that allows them tohave a very robust
investigative journalist kind ofstaff like they used to have,

(43:23):
and so what you have like partof the problem with like quote
unquote the mainstream media isthat they're, by and large, not
reporters really, they'retalking about press releases and
things like that, and that thereal media like anymore.
I feel like if you're worriedabout fake news, you're just a
terrible media consumer becauseyou can also go get amazing,

(43:45):
amazingly nuanced, accurateinformation on any subject in
any area from both sides.
If you go to these niche places, do think is has the, like you
say, the potential to be a realalternative voice, specifically

(44:07):
around the financial markets.
But how that fits into society?
Um, because it isn't somethingthat the the more corporate
media anymore that's trying togo to a mainstream audience all
the time can.
They don't.
They just can't even functionthat way that the whole business
models failed in that sense.

Patrick Bove (44:23):
Yeah, that's, it's something to watch too.
It's.
The strangest thing is thatpeople still, even people that
don't trust the media, willreact positively to a quote from
the media.
You know which is really so?
I think it's.
I think they're running onfumes, the media is running on
fumes, and they're running onwhatever their past glory.
Um, just like a, like anathlete who was like hall of
famer, who's just life'scompletely devolved.
And they're running on whatevertheir past glory.
Just like a, like an athletewho was like a hall of famer,

(44:44):
who's just life's completelydevolved.
And they're just a criminal,but they're, they have their
highlight reel right.
So media perhaps has its ownhighlight reel, and people's
heads were a position ofauthority, but at the same time,
they've never been more doubtedand discredited, and so, yeah,
I mean somebody has got to stepin and fill the void.

(45:08):
It's really going to be anoutright battle for that, for
that placement, and, and whoeverhas the best ideas is going to
win.
Like that's, that's the, that'sthe beautiful, that's the
promise of the internet, which Iwhich has been exciting to me
ever since I was just a kid as ateenager, this idea that, wow,
like anybody could truly have avoice on here.
It doesn't mean people aregoing to listen, but maybe you

(45:29):
know, like there's a, there's ashot, and uh, and we know the
best, the best voices and ideaswill generally rise to the top.
So it's, it's a legitimatechance, you know.
And even if we can't, you know,like I've, I've, I've, you know
, I'm mid forties now, so I've,I've, I don't, I'm not, I don't
wake up every morning with theintent to change the world.
I think that's taller.
But if we could just arm peoplewith the right information so

(45:49):
they could change their life,then I'm a happy camper, you
know I'm.
Then we did our job and we're,and we're paid handsomely for it
.
You know, when we it's, it's avery symbiotic relationship and
if the more we serve ourcustomer, the better we serve
our customer, the better ourfirst financial results over
time.
And, uh, the business iscyclical, but I think if we can
maintain that, those habits andthose principles, then
everything's going to be great,because I, I've seen it.

(46:12):
The value is truly like havinga raving fan.
Having a raving you know,somebody who loves you and just
can't wait to read what you'republishing next is going to want
no-transcript because you'regoing to have a higher open rate
because you're publishingsomething they value.
And if we're not over thetarget and they're not opening
their emails, and we know we'remaking a terrible mistake

(46:33):
because we're, we're, we'retaking advantage of their time
or wasting their time, you knowand they're, and they're gonna
remember that.
So, yeah, the whole business ina way has to stay over the
target, not just, not just withcopy and marketing, but with
editorial.
It's such a and it's it's notan easy task.
It's not an easy task.
But if we, I think, if we, ifwe, uh, if we can carry forward

(46:56):
that that sort of activity, thenthen, and generally be right
and generally follow that mostof activity, then then, and
generally be right and generallyfollow that most of the time,
we're going to be fine.

John Newtson (47:04):
Yeah, I think you're right and I think that's
the it's.
It's a time in the businesswhere it's almost like you have
to think very clearly that youare a publisher.
That means like there's a,there's a qualitative aspect to
that.
You have to oversight.
See your material Like you knowyou have a perspective.
You have to oversight.
See your material like you knowyou have a perspective.
You have quality.

(47:25):
Your marketing has to fit that.
Your copy messaging can't bedramatically different from your
editorial messaging.
It has to be cohesive, um, andso you have a good franchise in
my mind and is something thathas a very clear perspective on
the world and is then speakingto the customer through that

(47:47):
lens.
And the investment opportunitiesare the ones that fit.
That lens as well.

Patrick Bove (47:54):
What I love about well, porter really set this in
motion but what I love about thebusiness overall is that we
hire and work with editors evenif they're out of favor, even if
we could barely sell them, ifit's the type of information we
want to give our own friends andfamily like, if like a guy like
Chris Weber.
We recently finally partneredwith him.
He's by far my favoritenewsletter writer ever, but he

(48:14):
has such a small following.
He's never done any kind ofpromotion, but his work is so
incredibly good and consistentlygreat.
His track record, his writingability, is just second to none.
He's a joy to read.
So, anyway, we partnered withhim and we just launched him,
and was it a huge success?
No, but it's a start.
He doesn't have a list, it'sjust a start and we're investing

(48:36):
in him and investing in hisideas and we want to spread his
ideas, and the fact that we cando that is a wonderful thing.
So I'm glad that we're I mean,I'm glad that we've struck a
balance to being over the targetand focusing on what investors
want, but I'm also glad we havethe bandwidth to bring in other
editors that may be outside oftheir, outside of their

(48:58):
interests, outside of theirawareness and introduce them to
it, and it's going to make themmore successful over time.
It's going to upgrade thebusiness over time, I think.
I think it's every, everybusiness in our niche has to
think that way.
Because if you only if you'reonly focusing on what people
want right now and it's almostlike it's like working out in
the gym and only working yourright arm you know, it's just

(49:19):
like you're, you're're shreddedover here, but then you have
this little tiny like twig andit doesn't make any sense.
It's just it's.
But people don't see it thatway because I think they chase
uh, they chase opportunitybecause because the rewards are
there and so clear, but, um, butover the long term it turns you
into this, like you know,ridiculous looking creature that

(49:40):
hasn't fully developed.
And then, and then when, when,when you got to come somehow,
when life calls on you to useyour left arm you can't.

John Newtson (49:53):
It's not even there withered away.
That's so true so I don't wantto take.
I know we're coming up on thehour here.
So if anybody is a seniorwriter who's done about 10
million in sales in a year, or50,000 front end names, how do
they, how do they reach out andsay, hey, I want to come to your
, your copy set summit?

Patrick Bove (50:07):
Yeah, they can reach out to me directly.
So, just, people have a P B O VE at legacy researchcom.
And yeah, no, no guarantees atthis point because we're it's a
small and select crowd.
But if I mean at this point, ifwe did hear from the right
person, I would make everyeffort to get them in.
But hey, the worst casescenario, there's no downside to
reaching out, because even iflet's just say it's not a good

(50:28):
fit, or even if there's notenough time like you're on my
radar this is a long game.
Just don't pin your hopes onone interaction with anybody in
this business.
If I get to know you and likeyou over the years, then chances
are we're going to worktogether.
So, yeah, just take that shotif you're interested.
The worst I could say is, no,don't take it personally if
that's the case.
We all got to start somewhereand we build.

(50:49):
So I love copywriters, I loveworking and thinking out loud
with them and recruiting them isa joy too.
But we played a long game aswell.
So there may come a time in thenext couple of years where I am
bringing on a junior class.
We're just not doing it now.
But hey, there's no harm inreaching out and getting on my
radar.
And if you are a good fit forthis event, then we'll be happy

(51:10):
to invite you and fly you up toBaltimore and yeah, it's going
to be a lot of fun.
I'm not sure if we're going torecord it or not or make it
public.
It might stay pretty close tothe vest, but if it's a success
and people really enjoy it whichI assume they will then we'll,
I'm sure we'll be doing more inthe future.

John Newtson (51:25):
So, uh, I'm definitely looking forward to it
and uh and I'm looking forwardto seeing you too.

Patrick Bove (51:30):
Finally, meeting you in person.

John Newtson (51:31):
Yeah, it'd be awesome.
So I appreciate you doing this.
This has been a lot of fun.
A little more time on copyitself and there's so much we
can geek out on on copy and um,uh, so thanks and love to have
you back.

Patrick Bove (51:46):
Absolutely.
It'd be my pleasure Anytime.
All right, thanks, patrick,take care.
Bye.