February 22, 2025 • 32 mins
Unlock the secrets of overcoming life's challenges through the lens of occupational therapy with our distinguished guest, Dr. Sandra Dunbar-Smalley, Chief Learning Officer for AdventHealth University and the AdventHealth organization. Discover how Sandra combines her extensive expertise in occupational therapy with her role as an executive coach, helping people reclaim their daily functions and navigate career transitions. From the simple acts of brushing teeth to the complexities of driving, learn how occupational therapy empowers individuals to engage in meaningful activities after life-altering events. Sandra reveals the mental barriers we often face, such as imposter syndrome, and offers guidance on aligning personal aspirations with professional growth.
In our conversation, we unravel the essence of leadership beyond traditional authority, exploring how continuous learning, emotional intelligence, and self-awareness contribute to impactful influence. Sandra shares insights on how introverts can thrive in leadership roles by stepping outside their comfort zones and emphasizes the importance of building strong relationships. We also reflect on the heartwarming stories of listeners transformed by the show's insights, underscoring the profound impact media can have on personal and professional lives. Join us in celebrating the journey of growth and gratitude as we continue to make a difference one episode at a time.
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Follow The Brand! We hope you enjoyed learning about the latest marketing trends and strategies in Personal Branding, Business and Career Development, Financial Empowerment, Technology Innovation, and Executive Presence. To keep up with the latest insights and updates from us, be sure to follow us at 5starbdm.com. See you next time on Follow The Brand!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome everybody to the Follow Brand Podcast.
We are going to take this onthe way to Central Florida in
Orlando.
I love Orlando.
I always like going there.
I've had great experiencesthere.
Here we are right now in whatwe call the winter.
Now the winter in Orlando andSouth Florida, where I am, lasts
about three days.
So this is one of the days ofwinter and that's why, you know,
(00:24):
I've got my jacket and suit on.
She's got a little turtleneckon.
He's like that doesn't looklike Orlando Florida, but it is.
It is Orlando Florida.
We're going to have a candidconversation with Sandra Dunbar.
She's talking to us aboutoccupational therapy.
A lot of people have heardabout therapy and this and that,
but occupational therapy is alittle bit different and she
(00:47):
does it for hospital systems andhelps them and their people to
get aligned with their careertrajectory.
So, sandy, would you like tointroduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, thank you so much, Grant.
I am Sandy Dunbar-Smalley and Iam currently the Chief Learning
Officer for AdventHealthUniversity and AdventHealth
organization.
We're now 100,000 employees, soChief Learning Officer spans
beyond the university to theentire organization organization
(01:27):
.
But I'm originally fromCalifornia and I did my
undergrad degree in occupationaltherapy, as Grant said, and
also a graduate degree, but thenI went down a different road
with public administration, so Icombined healthcare and
administration for the rolesthat I've been in in the last
few years and I love it.
I'm passionate about helpingpeople develop as well as
ensuring that we have atop-notch health care system.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I love it.
Now you got to unpack this andI'm going to say I'm a novice,
so it's occupational therapy.
I'm like all right, help meunderstand what is occupational
therapy.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Occupational therapy is a health profession that
focuses on what do people reallywant to engage in in their life
?
So we consider anything.
Any purposeful, meaningfulactivity that you engage in is
occupation.
So when I wake up in themorning I'm brushing my teeth
(02:21):
that's an occupation.
I drive to work that's anoccupation.
I drive to work, that's anoccupation.
So when I'm injured or if Ihave a mental health aspect that
is a barrier to me functioningwell in those occupations,
that's when an occupationaltherapist may be very helpful to
(02:41):
intervene to help me get backto those occupations.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Man, you put that in such terms.
I understood that.
Yeah, you had a disruption inyour normal flow of your
occupation, as you said, andthen what you do is help people
get back on track, right?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yes, they could have a stroke.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
They could have been born with a developmental
disability or they could have amental health difference.
And so we help you, to's say,for a number of years, let's say
it was in healthcare finance,but now you want to go into a
different occupation, and nowyou want to go into, let's just
say, healthcare marketing, justto say so now you have this.
Is that a similar disruption?
Do you help people like hey, Igot to get to another mindset,
I'm not sure I've got someimposter syndrome happening here
.
I mean, hey, I got to get toanother mindset, I'm not sure
I've got some imposter syndromehappening here.
(03:47):
I mean, is that something youalso get involved?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
in?
No, and I'm glad you asked thatso people could really be clear
.
So, but that taps into anotherone of my skill sets.
I'm also an executive coach.
So that person that'sstruggling with where do I go in
my career, that's not aphysical or mental disruption,
(04:11):
that's more of I need to reallymake some good decisions in my
life.
So we're talking from an OTperspective.
It's really related to mymental or my physical health.
That other realm is maybe I'mjust not feeling confident about
myself, maybe I've got sometough decisions to make in my
(04:32):
life and an executive coach andor a therapist a different type
of therapist, a psychotherapistcan help with those aspects.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
I got it.
Now I'm starting to get intoyour zone of genius.
Give us an example of thechallenges Like.
Talk to me like as if I am ahealthcare worker.
I've now got a disruption thatI've come across, but maybe I'm
feeling a little bitapprehensive about potentially
(05:02):
even working with you, becauseI'm not sure.
However, yeah, I'm not brushingmy teeth anymore, I'm not
driving to work now, and nowI've got to get myself back into
a position where I can get intomy normal routine.
Talk to us about some of thechallenges that you come across.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Sure.
Well, individuals sometimesreally get stuck and I'll really
put my coaching hat on now andit's fun for me because I kind
of combine my OT knowledge andmy executive coaching knowledge
but for that scenario it'sreally digging into what are
your mental barriers for movingforward?
Word Is it that you have a newskill set and you're afraid to
(05:45):
use it?
I just had a session withsomeone just prior to our
discussion and they said I neverfinished my bachelor's degree
and I'm afraid to tell peoplethat because I have a good job.
But I really am also afraid ifI go back I might not be
successful because I dropped outbefore.
(06:07):
So that's something that'srelated to what you're saying,
that we really have tounderstand well, where's the
fear coming from?
And when I asked her that, shesaid people's perceptions.
So we're going to take the nextsession and really dig into why
does it matter so much aboutwhat other people think?
(06:28):
What is it that you want toaccomplish?
She really does want to getthat bachelor's degree.
She really does want thatfeeling of accomplishment, but
she's allowing others to reallydictate how she feels about
herself, and so many of us dothat.
We're living for other people'sexpectations rather than what
is it that we need to do forourselves?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
You're speaking to the choir now.
I see this so many times.
I work with a lot of peoplewhen it comes to personal
branding, right, and eitherthere's one or two things Either
they're ready to go, they'regung-ho, they're ready to engage
, or they're just timid, they'rejust very unsure about well,
grant, personal Grant I reallydon't want to put myself out
(07:13):
there like that.
But I say but you're here,you're talking to me and my job
it's almost like the poolinstructor, right.
Well, you're here to learn howto swim, I'm going to have to
put you in the pool.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, got to get out there.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
You got to get out there.
So there's a lot of trepidationabout that.
They know that it's good forthem Like no, I know I get it my
.
You know the CV, the resume,you know the in-person
networking.
I've got to put a layer on topof that and really tell my story
(07:52):
.
But to your point, I have allthese interferes.
I don't know how people aregoing to perceive me.
Do I know what I'm doing?
Am I going to look the way Ineed to look?
There's a lot of uncertaintywhen it comes down to it.
They understand that it's goodfor you, but yet I'm not sure I
can actually make it happen.
What do you do, I mean?
(08:13):
How do you, how do you begin tothen unpack it to where they
begin?
Just that confidence andcomfort level.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yes.
Well, just as with this younglady, where I would go next in
our next conversation is reallylooking at what's the history,
you know, where does it comefrom, where you're so concerned
about how others feel, and isthere an instance of you just
move forward with something inyour life and it worked out, and
(08:42):
really helping people to lookback and say, wait a minute, I
was successful in that, I movedforward, it was what I wanted to
do.
So really using some previoussuccesses because all of us have
some to really build off ofthat and say, well, if you were
able to do this, how about this?
Another step is to help themmake new commitments.
(09:06):
And you know, when we learnabout habits and habit forming,
which OTs work on with peopleevery day, coaches work on with
people every day.
It's not the big chunks, butwhat's one thing you can do?
So for this young lady, maybeone thing you can do is explore
different programs.
So just get online and startlooking to see if something
(09:29):
resonates with you that youcould potentially make your goal
.
So that's not a huge chunk.
That's not saying you're goingto enroll next month, but you're
just going to know what's outthere.
So I would say, taking stepsthat are really chewable, that
people don't feel are bigmountains, to be able to say, ok
, I was successful in that onestep, as well as looking back in
(09:51):
the past and saying what did Ido for myself that really did
work out and build off of that,those are two examples that's a
great example.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
I use that a lot in a way that I ask people well,
what were you doing five yearsago and what did that look like?
What were the challenges thatpotentially that you had five,
or maybe you have to go back 10years ago, and what I'm looking
for is what I call is thatincident?
You know the challenging point?
(10:22):
That was a challenge that youhad to overcome to become the
person that you are right now.
And then a lot of times theyrealize, well, yeah, I was in a
very challenging position.
I overcame that, you know, andit was over time.
It wasn't like I said, itwasn't just overnight, it was
over time and that you got tothis point.
(10:44):
And that gave them confidence,like, ok, and I love what you
also said about you have to havethe goal.
What is your North Star?
What are you really trying toaccomplish?
Let's not focus on thechallenge so much.
What are you trying toaccomplish?
Because the challenge is justsomething that's potentially in
the way, it's an obstacle, right.
But then you have this NorthStar that you read, the shiny
(11:06):
object that you're trying to getto right.
How important is it for you toget it and what's the path
forward to get there.
I'm going to come back to you.
What was your challengingmoment?
I mean, you said you went backand retargeted and retooled and
(11:27):
then came out with this wholenew stuff.
What was your incident thatcaused you to do that?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
You know, it's just interesting, a lot of it was by
default.
So sometimes when you have aparticular skill set, you may
not even feel you can move indifferent avenues, but someone
will see that climb that ladderand they're very eager to do it.
(11:55):
And then there are those that Icall the reluctant leader,
where doors may be open and youhave to choose whether you're
going to go into them.
And so I'm in that second campwhere I've really just accepted
and felt very blessed thatpeople have said I'd like to
give you this opportunity, andit really hasn't worked out well
(12:15):
.
When I've said, oh, I think Iwanna go for that, that door
would shut, and maybe becausethere was a blessing in another
door that I didn't reallyrecognize.
So I've been blessed with theseopportunities where someone has
said I want to give this to you.
I was recruited into theorganization that I'm in now
because of the things that Istarted at a different
(12:37):
organization, so being, I think,being open to those
opportunities, having adifferent degree too.
So we have a toolkit and themore tools that we put into it
are the more things that we canbuild.
And so starting withoccupational therapy, but then
adding public administration,opened so many more doors to me
(12:59):
that I really didn't evenanticipate.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What you said is golden.
You built on yourself and addedto what your capabilities were
and then through that visibility, someone else saw value and I'm
sure the people over there inNova they're like, yeah, they
did.
I know you're doing some reallycool stuff here in South
(13:26):
Florida for a number of years.
Talk to us about leadership andwhat do you see in the
leadership realm that you feelthat either A people aren't
taking advantage of or, b, theymay want to take advantage of,
but then they just don't knowhow.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yes, thanks for that leadership.
I'm so passionate about that andthat's an area I write about, I
speak about, and I think publicadministration led me that way.
But it also helped me to reflecton leadership positions I had
had in the hospital that Ididn't even know what I was
doing from a leadershipstandpoint, but then I found out
(14:05):
, oh okay, I was doing it okay,based on this information that I
now have.
So I think openness to learningis so key for leaders.
You know you talked aboutimposter syndrome and we work,
in my current role as chieflearning officer, with hundreds
of leaders and so many of themsay that they feel that, but
(14:25):
they still took the position.
So I feel having that opennessto learn through mentoring,
through sponsorship, wherethere's targeted efforts on a
leader to help someone to growand develop and to get into the
positions.
So networking, even though it'scliched and we say it all the
time, it does matter when weconnect and build relationships
(14:49):
with people on that next level,because then they're looking out
for us and then, when we do getthose opportunities out for us,
and then, when we do get thoseopportunities, never feeling
that we have to have all theanswers Leadership today,
especially with technology.
We cannot have all the answers,but it's really important to
know what our gaps are and beable to fill them by using
(15:13):
people around us effectively, aswell as continuing to learn in
that lifelong process.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Let me ask you this question because I like where
you're going with this.
Do you feel leadership is more?
And you can answer this eitherway you like, but is it more
behavioral or is it moreknowledge base?
Or maybe it's a combination ofboth?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I believe it's a combination of both.
I believe some people are bornwith inherent wonderful skills
and socialized taught thosewonderful skills, as I was, by
my parents.
I knew leadership just bywatching Sid and Lynn in my home
and in the community and in thechurch and on their jobs they
were very strong leaders.
(15:57):
So that was my first exposureto leadership.
But to me leadership is notonly those positions of
authority that you may getbecause of your skills or your
academic degree or whatever, butit's influence and impact
wherever you are.
So I could be a bedside nurse Idon't have to be a chief
(16:18):
nursing officer and have hugeimpact.
I can be an OT assistant Idon't have to be the OT making
the treatment plan and I canhave a huge impact and influence
.
And when people harness thatand really understand that power
, no matter what role they're in, they are powerful leaders.
But if I aspire to be in aposition of authority then I
(16:41):
need to really be open tocontinuous learning, gaining
that knowledge, gaining thosecertificates, getting the
degrees and having really strongemotional intelligence, which
is not our degree.
But if we don't know how to getalong with people, we're not
going to fare well in thatposition of authority.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
It's so important that those things that you I
don't know how you gain thatthrough just formal education
academically, when it comes toemotional intelligence,
situational awareness, right,yes.
And then in culture building,because dealing with people.
I remember talking to mygranddaughter about this as she
(17:22):
was going to school.
I said you know the mostimportant thing you're going to
learn, she said.
She said what was it?
Biology is it?
I said no, it's how to workwith people, understanding
humanity and the differentnuances that people come in,
because it's all about not justwho you know, as we've known,
(17:44):
this is who knows you and howyou can bridge those
relationships.
Creating relationships, I feelhas been one of the major
challenges in the currentgeneration and probably the next
generation, because I thinkthere's some dissonance there.
But don't discount the fact, nomatter how much knowledge you
(18:07):
may have or accumulate, becauseinformation now is becoming a
commodity A lot of people canacquire information.
They don't necessarily haveknowledge.
Knowledge, I think it's appliedknowledge, something that you
can apply, that you can utilize,right, it's a skill set, right.
But how are you going to do allthat if you don't have the
right relationships and whatyou're doing with occupational
(18:28):
therapy and leadership andknowing how to not only talk to
others, but talk to yourself.
How?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
do you?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
communicate with yourself.
How do you feel about thosethings?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, that's powerful .
In our organization, ourleadership framework has three
components and the first one islead self, the second is lead
others and the third is leadresults.
So that combination reallyenables people to be successful.
So we talk a lot in ourorganization about how can you
(19:04):
be more effective in leadingyourself, because if you don't
understand yourself, your skillset, what your gaps are, you're
not going to be a good teamleader, because you're going to
come in with your insecuritiesand your lack of confidence and
making all your assumptions andbeing very biased, and these are
the barriers to good teamfunctioning.
(19:25):
So you have to lead self in apowerful way first, and I love
what you said about it's notjust who you know, but it's who
knows you.
That is powerful also.
So you've got to push yourselfout, and myself, as an introvert
, that takes a lot, but I makean effort to get out into our
(19:45):
hospitals so I connect.
This week I was out at one inCentral Florida still, but the
culture is so different withinthe hospitals so I need them to
get to know me and what we offerthem at their facility.
So it just we have to pushourselves out of our comfort
zone sometimes in leading self.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
A hundred percent on that.
And it's hard.
Just like going back to theanalogy I talked about.
You got to go into the waterand, yeah, at first you're going
to sink to the bottom, right,you try to figure it out right.
Then you start to tread water,but you have a coach there
that's helping you, so you'renot going to drown.
Someone is there for you.
(20:28):
So Sandra is there with you.
I'm not going to let you falldown, I'm going to let you.
I'm going to show you how totread water.
Then I'm going to let you.
You know, I'm going to show youhow to tread water.
Then I'm going to show you howto swim to the other side, then
I'm going to show you how toswim back, and then you're going
to start doing this on your own.
You start to get your legsright, as they call it, you
start to get your stride and inthis new pool of experience, you
(20:49):
start to find out how younavigate into these worlds and
we all have moments where, likeI've got to step out.
I know this world very well,but I'm not sure about this
other one.
But change is always happening.
These worlds are alwaysrevolving and changing in and
out and you are put in aposition where you have no
choice.
You have to move forward.
(21:10):
You cannot stay stagnant.
Change is inevitable and wecannot just sink back.
We've got to pull forward.
I love the fact that you justsaid you're an introvert.
I have found people don't evenrealize this about me I'm a
natural introvert.
I am.
I'm a natural introvert,meaning I don't really need to
(21:32):
interact to be okay with me.
But I've learned over time howto be an extrovert and then how
to even talk to introverts LikeI know those feelings.
You're in your comfort zone.
I said I'm okay, right here,I'm fine, right.
However, you have skills, youhave knowledge, you have
(21:54):
capabilities in which, if youdon't share them, other people
struggle.
Because life is, I think,people is like being in a puzzle
box and each person is a pieceof that puzzle.
You've got to share your color,your likeness, your shape with
the others in order for thewhole thing to come together in
(22:18):
a tapestry.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yes, and if we think about our personal purpose, if
we're really here to help anddevelop people, as I am in my
role, whether a therapist or theCLO or leadership leader, you
have to be able to connect withpeople 100% on the connection.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Leadership is about connection.
I just put a post out aboutthat.
Leadership is more aboutconnection these days than just
commanding people or tellingpeople what to do.
It's a collaborative fabric.
Everyone has worth, everyonehas talents and skills.
Talents and skills, and youhave to know yours and you got
(23:04):
to know where they fit withother people.
You have a very good skill set.
Number one I love the way thatyou automatically made me feel
comfortable and they're like youknow what we can share.
Let's share some knowledge andsome experience.
Let's share some things that wefeel our audience, our shared
audience of healthcareprofessionals that are out there
(23:26):
.
Maybe they're feeling a littlebit vulnerable.
I give the voice.
I say I'm the voice of thevoiceless.
Let's talk about these things.
As you just said earlier aboutoccupational therapy, there's
people out there.
They may not even know theseservices even exist and how they
can help them.
Talk to us more about that.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yes, you know there's so many avenues to get
occupational therapy services.
So if you have a child with adisability that's in the school
system, the therapy is anintegral part free services by
law in the school system andmany parents do not understand
that.
Many people do not understandthat most insurance companies
(24:10):
will cover some therapy, whetherit's occupational, physical or
speech therapy.
So as also they're shoppingaround for insurances, insurance
coverage, they should ask thosequestions Does it cover for
rehabilitation?
If you're in a car accident andlose the use of an arm, you
(24:32):
need occupational and physicaltherapy.
So you need to know what yourcoverage is.
It's also important to ask.
I'd also add that this,hopefully, will help people know
this is a wonderful career.
So many healthcareprofessionals may start in one
area but then they want to shift, so they may already have the
(24:53):
prerequisites for going to OTschool if they're a nurse, for
example.
So it's an important career.
Or they might be thinking howcan I support my young person in
my home?
Know about health carepositions that are not just
nurses and doctors.
We have all these otheropportunities that are
(25:14):
well-paying, positions that areso meaningful and rewarding that
people just don't know about.
So I hope someone's encouragedto think about occupational
therapy as a career also.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I'm glad you said that, because the healthcare
ecosystem is so vast yeah,corporate's just about all the
other disciplines and industrieswithin it.
Whether you want to be inconstruction well guess what.
Healthcare, constructionhappens all the time.
I want to be in marketing?
Marketing happens all the time,right?
(25:47):
So you start thinking aboutfine, I want to go into finance
Well, guess what.
Finance big and healthcare.
Yet they are challenged inhealthcare with retaining people
and workers and top talent.
I think there's not a bigawareness.
People think healthcare toautomatically think, as you just
said, clinical, it's allclinical, right?
(26:07):
Yeah, it's more than that.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Oh yeah, I mean I have someone on my team who used
to be a chief marketing officer, so this is his retirement gig
teaching leadership.
So, yes, so many differenttypes of positions.
It.
It's just so vast and peopleneed to recognize all the
opportunities that are out there.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Let me ask you this because we're getting toward the
end, but I want this becauseyou are in the leadership space
and think about all thedifferent you know either
clients you've had in leadership, things that you've done in the
leadership realm, some of thecommon situations, the
challenges that seem to beconstant in that realm.
(26:53):
That would truly help people ontheir track to make a better
decision.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
The challenges that people face within the health
care system.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
That's within the health care.
Healthcare system just inleadership itself.
Yeah, just this.
This, this particular issueseems to be top of mind for a
lot of people of leaders rightnow yeah
Speaker 2 (27:20):
multiple things.
One is adapting to AI and howto integrate it into their lives
Well, the rate of informationcoming at them and the rate of
change.
So I think dealing with changein general is something leaders
are dealing with.
(27:40):
A third bucket that I can thinkof because we talk to leaders
all the time, so we're hearingall of these things is dealing
with five generations of workersin the workforce now, so I
might be able to connect with ababy boomer one way, but a
millennial I'm very insecureabout.
(28:01):
And then Gen Z.
I have no idea what I'm doing.
If I'm a leader, I might havethose issues and not really
understand how to adapt todifferent people, different
generations, as well as thechange that's coming at them and
the integration of AI.
Those are top three that I canthink of.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Mac, you reminded me I remember going to a training
about three years ago, maybeeven further back, and what you
just said about the generations.
And the gentleman told hisstory just like this.
He asked us point blank whatdoes James Bond look like?
And I'm like huh.
And then he just had everybodykind of what does James Bond
(28:44):
look like?
Does he look like Sean Connery?
You know, does he look like?
Because James Bond has beenfour or five different
characters over 50 years.
so are you talking to SeanConnery or are you talking to
Roger Craig right?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
are you talking to Roger Moore right?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
you're talking to James or you're talking to Roger
Moore.
Right, you're talking to JamesBond, but you're talking to a
different flavor of James Bond.
That's an interesting nuance.
I mean, how do you, you know,as I think through that like wow
, because everybody's going tocome to your office and you're
(29:23):
not really sure how they seeJames Bond, just as an analogy
and then you have to get them totell you how they see
situations or awareness.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yes, and that's part of the learning part.
You know of my role, and whatwe really help people to
understand is you have to beactively engaged in trying to
figure things out and you've gotto reflect on these aspects and
then integrate them into yourwork.
So that's our learning modelwithin our system.
(29:57):
So if we're not engaged intrying to figure it out, we're
not going to be able to move theneedle.
We've got to read, we've got togo to workshops, we've got to
talk to people.
We've got to ask that person inthe Gen Z generation what is it
that you need to feel satisfiedin your workplace?
(30:17):
So to be curious enough and notmake all these assumptions will
help us to be better leaders100% on that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
We're going to conclude.
You know, our interview.
This has been great.
Before I leave you go, I wantto make sure we know how to
contact you.
I'm like I'm sure you got100,000 people just within your
system and something like hey.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I got to get her.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I got to get her, I got to get in contact with her.
What's the best way?
Is it LinkedIn or another?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I'm on LinkedIn, yes, as Sandra Dunbar Smalley, so
that's a great way to get intouch with me.
That's probably the easiest.
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Excellent.
And, of course, before I letyou go, how did you feel?
Now you've gone through thewhole interview, how do you feel
about your segment on thefollow brand?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Oh, I'm excited because anytime I can share
information that might supportsomeone else's development, it's
a great opportunity.
I feel you're a great host, sothat made it very easy.
But I think the questionsreally led to us maybe helping
somebody else, and so that'salways such a rewarding feeling,
(31:26):
so I thank you for thisopportunity.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
No, thank you.
I like to be of service andthat's the goal.
Are we being of service to ouraudience and they can take that
to the next level?
I've had several people tell methat they watched my show and
it could have been two years ago.
Like Grant, I saw you do aninterview with a certain
individual and then I had anactual interview with that
(31:49):
person and, because of theinformation that was shared, I
was able to get the job.
I was able to get to anotherlevel and that made me feel good
, because you never know howyou're impacting someone else's
life.
This is beautiful and I knowright now, sandy, you're
impacting someone else's life.
This is beautiful and I knowright now, sandy, you're
impacting someone else's life.
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
That's awesome, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
And I want to encourage your entire audience
to tune in to all the episodesof Follow the Brand at 5 Star
BDM.
That is the number 5 Star BDM Bfor brand, d for development
infomasterscom.
This has been wonderful.
Thank you again for being onthe show.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
You're welcome.
Welcome everybody to the Follow Brand Podcast.
We are going to take this onthe way to Central Florida in
Orlando.
I love Orlando.
I always like going there.
I've had great experiencesthere.
Here we are right now in whatwe call the winter.
Now the winter in Orlando andSouth Florida, where I am, lasts
about three days.
So this is one of the days ofwinter and that's why, you know,
(00:24):
I've got my jacket and suit on.
She's got a little turtleneckon.
He's like that doesn't looklike Orlando Florida, but it is.
It is Orlando Florida.
We're going to have a candidconversation with Sandra Dunbar.
She's talking to us aboutoccupational therapy.
A lot of people have heardabout therapy and this and that,
but occupational therapy is alittle bit different and she
(00:47):
does it for hospital systems andhelps them and their people to
get aligned with their careertrajectory.
So, sandy, would you like tointroduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, thank you so much, Grant.
I am Sandy Dunbar-Smalley and Iam currently the Chief Learning
Officer for AdventHealthUniversity and AdventHealth
organization.
We're now 100,000 employees, soChief Learning Officer spans
beyond the university to theentire organization organization
(01:27):
.
But I'm originally fromCalifornia and I did my
undergrad degree in occupationaltherapy, as Grant said, and
also a graduate degree, but thenI went down a different road
with public administration, so Icombined healthcare and
administration for the rolesthat I've been in in the last
few years and I love it.
I'm passionate about helpingpeople develop as well as
ensuring that we have atop-notch health care system.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I love it.
Now you got to unpack this andI'm going to say I'm a novice,
so it's occupational therapy.
I'm like all right, help meunderstand what is occupational
therapy.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Occupational therapy is a health profession that
focuses on what do people reallywant to engage in in their life
?
So we consider anything.
Any purposeful, meaningfulactivity that you engage in is
occupation.
So when I wake up in themorning I'm brushing my teeth
(02:21):
that's an occupation.
I drive to work that's anoccupation.
I drive to work, that's anoccupation.
So when I'm injured or if Ihave a mental health aspect that
is a barrier to me functioningwell in those occupations,
that's when an occupationaltherapist may be very helpful to
(02:41):
intervene to help me get backto those occupations.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Man, you put that in such terms.
I understood that.
Yeah, you had a disruption inyour normal flow of your
occupation, as you said, andthen what you do is help people
get back on track, right?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yes, they could have a stroke.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
They could have been born with a developmental
disability or they could have amental health difference.
And so we help you, to's say,for a number of years, let's say
it was in healthcare finance,but now you want to go into a
different occupation, and nowyou want to go into, let's just
say, healthcare marketing, justto say so now you have this.
Is that a similar disruption?
Do you help people like hey, Igot to get to another mindset,
I'm not sure I've got someimposter syndrome happening here
.
I mean, hey, I got to get toanother mindset, I'm not sure
I've got some imposter syndromehappening here.
(03:47):
I mean, is that something youalso get involved?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
in?
No, and I'm glad you asked thatso people could really be clear
.
So, but that taps into anotherone of my skill sets.
I'm also an executive coach.
So that person that'sstruggling with where do I go in
my career, that's not aphysical or mental disruption,
(04:11):
that's more of I need to reallymake some good decisions in my
life.
So we're talking from an OTperspective.
It's really related to mymental or my physical health.
That other realm is maybe I'mjust not feeling confident about
myself, maybe I've got sometough decisions to make in my
(04:32):
life and an executive coach andor a therapist a different type
of therapist, a psychotherapistcan help with those aspects.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
I got it.
Now I'm starting to get intoyour zone of genius.
Give us an example of thechallenges Like.
Talk to me like as if I am ahealthcare worker.
I've now got a disruption thatI've come across, but maybe I'm
feeling a little bitapprehensive about potentially
(05:02):
even working with you, becauseI'm not sure.
However, yeah, I'm not brushingmy teeth anymore, I'm not
driving to work now, and nowI've got to get myself back into
a position where I can get intomy normal routine.
Talk to us about some of thechallenges that you come across.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Sure.
Well, individuals sometimesreally get stuck and I'll really
put my coaching hat on now andit's fun for me because I kind
of combine my OT knowledge andmy executive coaching knowledge
but for that scenario it'sreally digging into what are
your mental barriers for movingforward?
Word Is it that you have a newskill set and you're afraid to
(05:45):
use it?
I just had a session withsomeone just prior to our
discussion and they said I neverfinished my bachelor's degree
and I'm afraid to tell peoplethat because I have a good job.
But I really am also afraid ifI go back I might not be
successful because I dropped outbefore.
(06:07):
So that's something that'srelated to what you're saying,
that we really have tounderstand well, where's the
fear coming from?
And when I asked her that, shesaid people's perceptions.
So we're going to take the nextsession and really dig into why
does it matter so much aboutwhat other people think?
(06:28):
What is it that you want toaccomplish?
She really does want to getthat bachelor's degree.
She really does want thatfeeling of accomplishment, but
she's allowing others to reallydictate how she feels about
herself, and so many of us dothat.
We're living for other people'sexpectations rather than what
is it that we need to do forourselves?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
You're speaking to the choir now.
I see this so many times.
I work with a lot of peoplewhen it comes to personal
branding, right, and eitherthere's one or two things Either
they're ready to go, they'regung-ho, they're ready to engage
, or they're just timid, they'rejust very unsure about well,
grant, personal Grant I reallydon't want to put myself out
(07:13):
there like that.
But I say but you're here,you're talking to me and my job
it's almost like the poolinstructor, right.
Well, you're here to learn howto swim, I'm going to have to
put you in the pool.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, got to get out there.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
You got to get out there.
So there's a lot of trepidationabout that.
They know that it's good forthem Like no, I know I get it my
.
You know the CV, the resume,you know the in-person
networking.
I've got to put a layer on topof that and really tell my story
(07:52):
.
But to your point, I have allthese interferes.
I don't know how people aregoing to perceive me.
Do I know what I'm doing?
Am I going to look the way Ineed to look?
There's a lot of uncertaintywhen it comes down to it.
They understand that it's goodfor you, but yet I'm not sure I
can actually make it happen.
What do you do, I mean?
(08:13):
How do you, how do you begin tothen unpack it to where they
begin?
Just that confidence andcomfort level.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yes.
Well, just as with this younglady, where I would go next in
our next conversation is reallylooking at what's the history,
you know, where does it comefrom, where you're so concerned
about how others feel, and isthere an instance of you just
move forward with something inyour life and it worked out, and
(08:42):
really helping people to lookback and say, wait a minute, I
was successful in that, I movedforward, it was what I wanted to
do.
So really using some previoussuccesses because all of us have
some to really build off ofthat and say, well, if you were
able to do this, how about this?
Another step is to help themmake new commitments.
(09:06):
And you know, when we learnabout habits and habit forming,
which OTs work on with peopleevery day, coaches work on with
people every day.
It's not the big chunks, butwhat's one thing you can do?
So for this young lady, maybeone thing you can do is explore
different programs.
So just get online and startlooking to see if something
(09:29):
resonates with you that youcould potentially make your goal
.
So that's not a huge chunk.
That's not saying you're goingto enroll next month, but you're
just going to know what's outthere.
So I would say, taking stepsthat are really chewable, that
people don't feel are bigmountains, to be able to say, ok
, I was successful in that onestep, as well as looking back in
(09:51):
the past and saying what did Ido for myself that really did
work out and build off of that,those are two examples that's a
great example.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
I use that a lot in a way that I ask people well,
what were you doing five yearsago and what did that look like?
What were the challenges thatpotentially that you had five,
or maybe you have to go back 10years ago, and what I'm looking
for is what I call is thatincident?
You know the challenging point?
(10:22):
That was a challenge that youhad to overcome to become the
person that you are right now.
And then a lot of times theyrealize, well, yeah, I was in a
very challenging position.
I overcame that, you know, andit was over time.
It wasn't like I said, itwasn't just overnight, it was
over time and that you got tothis point.
(10:44):
And that gave them confidence,like, ok, and I love what you
also said about you have to havethe goal.
What is your North Star?
What are you really trying toaccomplish?
Let's not focus on thechallenge so much.
What are you trying toaccomplish?
Because the challenge is justsomething that's potentially in
the way, it's an obstacle, right.
But then you have this NorthStar that you read, the shiny
(11:06):
object that you're trying to getto right.
How important is it for you toget it and what's the path
forward to get there.
I'm going to come back to you.
What was your challengingmoment?
I mean, you said you went backand retargeted and retooled and
(11:27):
then came out with this wholenew stuff.
What was your incident thatcaused you to do that?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
You know, it's just interesting, a lot of it was by
default.
So sometimes when you have aparticular skill set, you may
not even feel you can move indifferent avenues, but someone
will see that climb that ladderand they're very eager to do it.
(11:55):
And then there are those that Icall the reluctant leader,
where doors may be open and youhave to choose whether you're
going to go into them.
And so I'm in that second campwhere I've really just accepted
and felt very blessed thatpeople have said I'd like to
give you this opportunity, andit really hasn't worked out well
(12:15):
.
When I've said, oh, I think Iwanna go for that, that door
would shut, and maybe becausethere was a blessing in another
door that I didn't reallyrecognize.
So I've been blessed with theseopportunities where someone has
said I want to give this to you.
I was recruited into theorganization that I'm in now
because of the things that Istarted at a different
(12:37):
organization, so being, I think,being open to those
opportunities, having adifferent degree too.
So we have a toolkit and themore tools that we put into it
are the more things that we canbuild.
And so starting withoccupational therapy, but then
adding public administration,opened so many more doors to me
(12:59):
that I really didn't evenanticipate.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What you said is golden.
You built on yourself and addedto what your capabilities were
and then through that visibility, someone else saw value and I'm
sure the people over there inNova they're like, yeah, they
did.
I know you're doing some reallycool stuff here in South
(13:26):
Florida for a number of years.
Talk to us about leadership andwhat do you see in the
leadership realm that you feelthat either A people aren't
taking advantage of or, b, theymay want to take advantage of,
but then they just don't knowhow.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yes, thanks for that leadership.
I'm so passionate about that andthat's an area I write about, I
speak about, and I think publicadministration led me that way.
But it also helped me to reflecton leadership positions I had
had in the hospital that Ididn't even know what I was
doing from a leadershipstandpoint, but then I found out
(14:05):
, oh okay, I was doing it okay,based on this information that I
now have.
So I think openness to learningis so key for leaders.
You know you talked aboutimposter syndrome and we work,
in my current role as chieflearning officer, with hundreds
of leaders and so many of themsay that they feel that, but
(14:25):
they still took the position.
So I feel having that opennessto learn through mentoring,
through sponsorship, wherethere's targeted efforts on a
leader to help someone to growand develop and to get into the
positions.
So networking, even though it'scliched and we say it all the
time, it does matter when weconnect and build relationships
(14:49):
with people on that next level,because then they're looking out
for us and then, when we do getthose opportunities out for us,
and then, when we do get thoseopportunities, never feeling
that we have to have all theanswers Leadership today,
especially with technology.
We cannot have all the answers,but it's really important to
know what our gaps are and beable to fill them by using
(15:13):
people around us effectively, aswell as continuing to learn in
that lifelong process.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Let me ask you this question because I like where
you're going with this.
Do you feel leadership is more?
And you can answer this eitherway you like, but is it more
behavioral or is it moreknowledge base?
Or maybe it's a combination ofboth?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I believe it's a combination of both.
I believe some people are bornwith inherent wonderful skills
and socialized taught thosewonderful skills, as I was, by
my parents.
I knew leadership just bywatching Sid and Lynn in my home
and in the community and in thechurch and on their jobs they
were very strong leaders.
(15:57):
So that was my first exposureto leadership.
But to me leadership is notonly those positions of
authority that you may getbecause of your skills or your
academic degree or whatever, butit's influence and impact
wherever you are.
So I could be a bedside nurse Idon't have to be a chief
(16:18):
nursing officer and have hugeimpact.
I can be an OT assistant Idon't have to be the OT making
the treatment plan and I canhave a huge impact and influence
.
And when people harness thatand really understand that power
, no matter what role they're in, they are powerful leaders.
But if I aspire to be in aposition of authority then I
(16:41):
need to really be open tocontinuous learning, gaining
that knowledge, gaining thosecertificates, getting the
degrees and having really strongemotional intelligence, which
is not our degree.
But if we don't know how to getalong with people, we're not
going to fare well in thatposition of authority.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
It's so important that those things that you I
don't know how you gain thatthrough just formal education
academically, when it comes toemotional intelligence,
situational awareness, right,yes.
And then in culture building,because dealing with people.
I remember talking to mygranddaughter about this as she
(17:22):
was going to school.
I said you know the mostimportant thing you're going to
learn, she said.
She said what was it?
Biology is it?
I said no, it's how to workwith people, understanding
humanity and the differentnuances that people come in,
because it's all about not justwho you know, as we've known,
(17:44):
this is who knows you and howyou can bridge those
relationships.
Creating relationships, I feelhas been one of the major
challenges in the currentgeneration and probably the next
generation, because I thinkthere's some dissonance there.
But don't discount the fact, nomatter how much knowledge you
(18:07):
may have or accumulate, becauseinformation now is becoming a
commodity A lot of people canacquire information.
They don't necessarily haveknowledge.
Knowledge, I think it's appliedknowledge, something that you
can apply, that you can utilize,right, it's a skill set, right.
But how are you going to do allthat if you don't have the
right relationships and whatyou're doing with occupational
(18:28):
therapy and leadership andknowing how to not only talk to
others, but talk to yourself.
How?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
do you?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
communicate with yourself.
How do you feel about thosethings?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, that's powerful .
In our organization, ourleadership framework has three
components and the first one islead self, the second is lead
others and the third is leadresults.
So that combination reallyenables people to be successful.
So we talk a lot in ourorganization about how can you
(19:04):
be more effective in leadingyourself, because if you don't
understand yourself, your skillset, what your gaps are, you're
not going to be a good teamleader, because you're going to
come in with your insecuritiesand your lack of confidence and
making all your assumptions andbeing very biased, and these are
the barriers to good teamfunctioning.
(19:25):
So you have to lead self in apowerful way first, and I love
what you said about it's notjust who you know, but it's who
knows you.
That is powerful also.
So you've got to push yourselfout, and myself, as an introvert
, that takes a lot, but I makean effort to get out into our
(19:45):
hospitals so I connect.
This week I was out at one inCentral Florida still, but the
culture is so different withinthe hospitals so I need them to
get to know me and what we offerthem at their facility.
So it just we have to pushourselves out of our comfort
zone sometimes in leading self.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
A hundred percent on that.
And it's hard.
Just like going back to theanalogy I talked about.
You got to go into the waterand, yeah, at first you're going
to sink to the bottom, right,you try to figure it out right.
Then you start to tread water,but you have a coach there
that's helping you, so you'renot going to drown.
Someone is there for you.
(20:28):
So Sandra is there with you.
I'm not going to let you falldown, I'm going to let you.
I'm going to show you how totread water.
Then I'm going to let you.
You know, I'm going to show youhow to tread water.
Then I'm going to show you howto swim to the other side, then
I'm going to show you how toswim back, and then you're going
to start doing this on your own.
You start to get your legsright, as they call it, you
start to get your stride and inthis new pool of experience, you
(20:49):
start to find out how younavigate into these worlds and
we all have moments where, likeI've got to step out.
I know this world very well,but I'm not sure about this
other one.
But change is always happening.
These worlds are alwaysrevolving and changing in and
out and you are put in aposition where you have no
choice.
You have to move forward.
(21:10):
You cannot stay stagnant.
Change is inevitable and wecannot just sink back.
We've got to pull forward.
I love the fact that you justsaid you're an introvert.
I have found people don't evenrealize this about me I'm a
natural introvert.
I am.
I'm a natural introvert,meaning I don't really need to
(21:32):
interact to be okay with me.
But I've learned over time howto be an extrovert and then how
to even talk to introverts LikeI know those feelings.
You're in your comfort zone.
I said I'm okay, right here,I'm fine, right.
However, you have skills, youhave knowledge, you have
(21:54):
capabilities in which, if youdon't share them, other people
struggle.
Because life is, I think,people is like being in a puzzle
box and each person is a pieceof that puzzle.
You've got to share your color,your likeness, your shape with
the others in order for thewhole thing to come together in
(22:18):
a tapestry.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yes, and if we think about our personal purpose, if
we're really here to help anddevelop people, as I am in my
role, whether a therapist or theCLO or leadership leader, you
have to be able to connect withpeople 100% on the connection.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Leadership is about connection.
I just put a post out aboutthat.
Leadership is more aboutconnection these days than just
commanding people or tellingpeople what to do.
It's a collaborative fabric.
Everyone has worth, everyonehas talents and skills.
Talents and skills, and youhave to know yours and you got
(23:04):
to know where they fit withother people.
You have a very good skill set.
Number one I love the way thatyou automatically made me feel
comfortable and they're like youknow what we can share.
Let's share some knowledge andsome experience.
Let's share some things that wefeel our audience, our shared
audience of healthcareprofessionals that are out there
(23:26):
.
Maybe they're feeling a littlebit vulnerable.
I give the voice.
I say I'm the voice of thevoiceless.
Let's talk about these things.
As you just said earlier aboutoccupational therapy, there's
people out there.
They may not even know theseservices even exist and how they
can help them.
Talk to us more about that.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yes, you know there's so many avenues to get
occupational therapy services.
So if you have a child with adisability that's in the school
system, the therapy is anintegral part free services by
law in the school system andmany parents do not understand
that.
Many people do not understandthat most insurance companies
(24:10):
will cover some therapy, whetherit's occupational, physical or
speech therapy.
So as also they're shoppingaround for insurances, insurance
coverage, they should ask thosequestions Does it cover for
rehabilitation?
If you're in a car accident andlose the use of an arm, you
(24:32):
need occupational and physicaltherapy.
So you need to know what yourcoverage is.
It's also important to ask.
I'd also add that this,hopefully, will help people know
this is a wonderful career.
So many healthcareprofessionals may start in one
area but then they want to shift, so they may already have the
(24:53):
prerequisites for going to OTschool if they're a nurse, for
example.
So it's an important career.
Or they might be thinking howcan I support my young person in
my home?
Know about health carepositions that are not just
nurses and doctors.
We have all these otheropportunities that are
(25:14):
well-paying, positions that areso meaningful and rewarding that
people just don't know about.
So I hope someone's encouragedto think about occupational
therapy as a career also.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I'm glad you said that, because the healthcare
ecosystem is so vast yeah,corporate's just about all the
other disciplines and industrieswithin it.
Whether you want to be inconstruction well guess what.
Healthcare, constructionhappens all the time.
I want to be in marketing?
Marketing happens all the time,right?
(25:47):
So you start thinking aboutfine, I want to go into finance
Well, guess what.
Finance big and healthcare.
Yet they are challenged inhealthcare with retaining people
and workers and top talent.
I think there's not a bigawareness.
People think healthcare toautomatically think, as you just
said, clinical, it's allclinical, right?
(26:07):
Yeah, it's more than that.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Oh yeah, I mean I have someone on my team who used
to be a chief marketing officer, so this is his retirement gig
teaching leadership.
So, yes, so many differenttypes of positions.
It.
It's just so vast and peopleneed to recognize all the
opportunities that are out there.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Let me ask you this because we're getting toward the
end, but I want this becauseyou are in the leadership space
and think about all thedifferent you know either
clients you've had in leadership, things that you've done in the
leadership realm, some of thecommon situations, the
challenges that seem to beconstant in that realm.
(26:53):
That would truly help people ontheir track to make a better
decision.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
The challenges that people face within the health
care system.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
That's within the health care.
Healthcare system just inleadership itself.
Yeah, just this.
This, this particular issueseems to be top of mind for a
lot of people of leaders rightnow yeah
Speaker 2 (27:20):
multiple things.
One is adapting to AI and howto integrate it into their lives
Well, the rate of informationcoming at them and the rate of
change.
So I think dealing with changein general is something leaders
are dealing with.
(27:40):
A third bucket that I can thinkof because we talk to leaders
all the time, so we're hearingall of these things is dealing
with five generations of workersin the workforce now, so I
might be able to connect with ababy boomer one way, but a
millennial I'm very insecureabout.
(28:01):
And then Gen Z.
I have no idea what I'm doing.
If I'm a leader, I might havethose issues and not really
understand how to adapt todifferent people, different
generations, as well as thechange that's coming at them and
the integration of AI.
Those are top three that I canthink of.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Mac, you reminded me I remember going to a training
about three years ago, maybeeven further back, and what you
just said about the generations.
And the gentleman told hisstory just like this.
He asked us point blank whatdoes James Bond look like?
And I'm like huh.
And then he just had everybodykind of what does James Bond
(28:44):
look like?
Does he look like Sean Connery?
You know, does he look like?
Because James Bond has beenfour or five different
characters over 50 years.
so are you talking to SeanConnery or are you talking to
Roger Craig right?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
are you talking to Roger Moore right?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
you're talking to James or you're talking to Roger
Moore.
Right, you're talking to JamesBond, but you're talking to a
different flavor of James Bond.
That's an interesting nuance.
I mean, how do you, you know,as I think through that like wow
, because everybody's going tocome to your office and you're
(29:23):
not really sure how they seeJames Bond, just as an analogy
and then you have to get them totell you how they see
situations or awareness.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yes, and that's part of the learning part.
You know of my role, and whatwe really help people to
understand is you have to beactively engaged in trying to
figure things out and you've gotto reflect on these aspects and
then integrate them into yourwork.
So that's our learning modelwithin our system.
(29:57):
So if we're not engaged intrying to figure it out, we're
not going to be able to move theneedle.
We've got to read, we've got togo to workshops, we've got to
talk to people.
We've got to ask that person inthe Gen Z generation what is it
that you need to feel satisfiedin your workplace?
(30:17):
So to be curious enough and notmake all these assumptions will
help us to be better leaders100% on that.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
We're going to conclude.
You know, our interview.
This has been great.
Before I leave you go, I wantto make sure we know how to
contact you.
I'm like I'm sure you got100,000 people just within your
system and something like hey.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I got to get her.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I got to get her, I got to get in contact with her.
What's the best way?
Is it LinkedIn or another?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I'm on LinkedIn, yes, as Sandra Dunbar Smalley, so
that's a great way to get intouch with me.
That's probably the easiest.
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Excellent.
And, of course, before I letyou go, how did you feel?
Now you've gone through thewhole interview, how do you feel
about your segment on thefollow brand?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Oh, I'm excited because anytime I can share
information that might supportsomeone else's development, it's
a great opportunity.
I feel you're a great host, sothat made it very easy.
But I think the questionsreally led to us maybe helping
somebody else, and so that'salways such a rewarding feeling,
(31:26):
so I thank you for thisopportunity.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
No, thank you.
I like to be of service andthat's the goal.
Are we being of service to ouraudience and they can take that
to the next level?
I've had several people tell methat they watched my show and
it could have been two years ago.
Like Grant, I saw you do aninterview with a certain
individual and then I had anactual interview with that
(31:49):
person and, because of theinformation that was shared, I
was able to get the job.
I was able to get to anotherlevel and that made me feel good
, because you never know howyou're impacting someone else's
life.
This is beautiful and I knowright now, sandy, you're
impacting someone else's life.
This is beautiful and I knowright now, sandy, you're
impacting someone else's life.
This has been wonderful.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
That's awesome, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
And I want to encourage your entire audience
to tune in to all the episodesof Follow the Brand at 5 Star
BDM.
That is the number 5 Star BDM Bfor brand, d for development
infomasterscom.
This has been wonderful.
Thank you again for being onthe show.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
You're welcome.
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