August 30, 2024 • 45 mins
World Golf Hall of Fame member, Gentle Ben looks back on his youth, learning the game under the watchful eye of Harvey Penick, his second father, and being challenged by a young Tom Kite. Learn about the eerie history of Brookline in Ben’s life/career, where he discovered his love of the history and traditions of the Game at age 16. Ben and Bruce recount how their paths first crossed as the “Devil” gave an exhibition for the young men competing in the 1972 NCAA championship in FL. Share a magical moment as Bruce relates his story from the 1958 inaugural Eisenhower Trophy at St. Andrews where Bobby Jones gives an inspirational speech, one Ben has in his collection and is able to quote from memory. Hear about Ben’s remarkable amateur career and early tour successes as we talk architecture, technology and the most recent Masters. Ben Crenshaw provides an inspiring look back on his early life, “FORE the Good of the Game.”
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About
"FORE the Good of the Game” is a golf podcast featuring interviews with World Golf Hall of Fame members, winners of major championships and other people of influence in and around the game of golf. Highlighting the positive aspects of the game, we aim to create and provide an engaging and timeless repository of content that listeners can enjoy now and forever. Co-hosted by PGA Tour star Bruce Devlin, our podcast focuses on telling their life stories, in their voices. Join Bruce and Mike Gonzalez “FORE the Good of the Game.”
Thanks so much for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Music playing (00:10):
Intro music
Mike Gonzalez (00:16):
Welcome to another edition of "FORE the
Good of the Game" and BruceDevlin, I'm really excited about
our guest this morning.
Bruce Devlin (00:23):
I'm not going to tell you who it is. I'll just
give you an idea who it is. Hewas a 19-time winner on the PGA
Tour. A dual Masters champion,three NCAA titles when he played
in college. He's in thearchitectural business. He's got
(00:44):
a wife and three daughters,which keep him busy. And we're
just so proud to have BenCrenshaw with us this morning.
Welcome, Ben.
Ben Crenshaw (00:53):
Thank you, Bruce.
My old buddy. We've played a lotof practice rounds. A lot of
tournaments together. It's apleasure to be with you and
Mike. You know, it's we've hada, I've had a, I've had a very
nice career and the people thatBruce you and I've met and
(01:15):
played with means a lot to me atthis point in life, and I feel
very lucky and fortunate to havegone so always nice to reminisce
with old pals.
Bruce Devlin (01:30):
Well, thank you, Ben, we were looking forward to
chatting about all yourwonderful career this morning.
And, Mike, you know, we've hadsome nice guests, but but this
one's pretty special.
Mike Gonzalez (01:43):
Yeah, he sure is.
And we've got so much to talkabout. Ben, I think it might be
good just to try to reminisceyou two, in terms of when did
you first encounter each other?
What's your recollection of thatBen?
Ben Crenshaw (01:57):
Wow, you know, I had the I was lucky, I got
invited as an amateur to theChampions, Houston Champions
tournament at Jackie Burke'sclub. And I played in the
Colonial tournament three timesas an amateur. And we met, you
(02:20):
know, on the tournament trail inTexas, I'm sure. And I I had
two, I was invited twice toAugusta. And I can't tell you
how many practice rounds that Iplayed with Bruce and David
Graham. I just remember thosedays so vividly. had so much fun
(02:43):
playing with them. And they,let's just face it, they were
very nice to me I enjoyed theircompany. And I really got to see
golf at a top level. And I waslistening all the time. I just
enjoyed their company. And theywere very nice to have me along.
Bruce Devlin (03:02):
I'm going to I'm going to prod your memory and a
little bit Benjamin in 1972, theNCAA's were played in Florida at
a place called Cape Coral. Andthere was a PGA Professional who
went there and did a clinic forall of you guys, you remember
who it was.
Ben Crenshaw (03:25):
It had to be the "Devil."
Bruce Devlin (03:28):
It was the "Devil" that was that was that was great
meeting you and Tom and all theboys from the University of
Texas and obviously all theother guys that you played
against as an amateur. I'll tellyou what, it was a great crew.
If you look across all of theuniversities, aside from
Crenshaw and Kite being thestandouts of Texas, there are a
(03:50):
lot of other good players there,too.
Ben Crenshaw (03:53):
Oh, you bet. You know, I had the benefit. When I
started traveling, as an amateurI started meeting and playing
against people that I would playwith the rest of my career. And
you're so right, Bruce, youknow, during that NCAA, there
had some fabulous players. I'lltell you one player that always
(04:14):
stood out to me. Could have beenone of the best ball strikers I
saw at that age was a guy namedEddie Pierce. He was from Tampa,
Florida. And he went to WakeForest, but I met Eddie when I
was 16 years old in Boston. Whenhe won the US Junior at
(04:35):
Brookline, and I'm telling youwhat this guy could play like
you can't believe God he wasgood. And his buddy Gary Koch,
and who was a fabulous playerBill Kratzert are all kinds of
people that we will later playwith but you know, one thing
sticks out in my memory when westarted playing together, Bruce,
(04:57):
and then David Graham pointed itout to me. We would watch you.
And David would look at me said,Look, Look at his eyes. And so
what do you mean? Just Justlook, just watch his eyes. When
he's when he's when he'sswinging, and especially on the
downswing and your eyes werefixed, past the ball, not on the
(05:20):
ball, but past the ball. And Ilooked again, and I said, Wow, I
just saw that. And, and I lookedat David, and I said, What's he
trying to do? He said, He'strying to pass that club head
over that spot through the ball.
I've never seen anybody do that.
But boy, could you do it and youhit the ball so solidly. I said,
(05:42):
Wow, that's, that's prettyinteresting. But David pointed
that out to me early on.
Bruce Devlin (05:47):
Well, I don't know how it all started. But that
was, that was something that alot of people used to say about
me, you know, why the hell don'tyou look at the ball instead of
looking in front of it.
Ben Crenshaw (06:01):
You know, that reminds that reminds me of a, of
a Bobby Jones quote, you know,and I, you know, I'm like a lot
of other people, I hold him insuch high esteem. And I was
fascinated how he wrote aboutthe game. He was such a, he had
such command of the Englishlanguage and brilliant writer.
(06:23):
And someone asked Jones, hesaid, Mr. Jones, do you look at
the ball? Do you stare a hole init? And he said, No, I don't, he
said I'm merely conscious of itslocation. Which was an
interesting way. I'd never heardthat before.
Bruce Devlin (06:40):
Well, I'm gonna move isn't until you shifted.
Ben Crenshaw (06:42):
No. You're right.
It's a stationary object, andwe're trying to make it behave
and man and sometimes we don't.
Bruce Devlin (06:51):
How true that is.
Mike Gonzalez (06:53):
So Bruce, you are recollecting your what you
remember to be your firstencounter with Ben Crenshaw back
in 1972. Let's go back 20 years,Ben to growing up in, in Austin,
Texas. Tell us a little bitabout what that was like.
Ben Crenshaw (07:11):
Wow, I had, I could not have had a better
upbringing. My father was a goodplayer, a lawyer, and had a
bunch of good golfing friends.
And my brother and I started Istarted when I was seven years
old. My brother was 15 monthsolder. We were members of the
Austin Country Club under HarveyPenick. And, well, I had a bunch
(07:34):
of good little players aroundme. And it you know, there's no
substitute for competition. And,gosh, when I was when I was when
Tom Kite was 11 or 12 years old,he came to Austin and started
playing with us. And his fatherwas a good player. And he was
(08:01):
the Internal Revenue ServiceDirector there in Austin. But I
could tell from the moment I metTom, and that was a, an
adversary. A wonderful guy said,My gosh, you know, if I could
play with him and and beat himevery once in a while, I
(08:23):
couldn't have had bettercompetition, but there were 10
other kids who could play so inmy mind, I was watching good
golf. And it just helped. AndHarvey was one of those people
who sort of kept his eye oneveryone. Harvey was a dear,
(08:43):
dear man who helped us all and aconsummate professional. Very,
very, very few words. But theystuck. very much a
fundamentalist.
Mike Gonzalez (09:05):
So Ben, it sounds like you're a lot like Bruce and
I, in terms of how you picked upthe game, we all picked it up,
really and got introduced to itfrom our fathers.
Ben Crenshaw (09:16):
Well, I mean, we I, you know, you couldn't have
better guidance, obviously, withyour parents and if they play
golf. You know, you. I know. InBruce's case, I'm sure that, you
know, sometimes there's anoverbearing parent that maybe
(09:39):
stifles the growth of youth butI had the best dad he was a
little tough on me, but he wasnot overbearing. And I see that
so many times. But apart from myfather Harvey was like a second
father to me. I owe almosteverything I ever did in golf to
(10:05):
that man. And we had him for along time, a long time. And he
was so, so fundamental, sodirect and easily understood.
Although he could get verytechnical with someone like Tom
kite who was way more technicalthan I was. Tom was a practicer.
(10:31):
I practiced a little bit, butI'd rather play. But Harvey knew
that and sort of kept ourteaching separate at an early
age. So we've benefited fromthat. He knew he wanted to know
what kind of person you were.
Then he went, he went very muchon that. But wow, to have the
end of his life, at Augusta thatweek, I still can't believe it.
(10:59):
I mean, I played beautifullythat week. But when it was
happening on Harvey's death, youknow, Tom Kite now we're
pallbearers that week. And wecame back to Austin and buried
him I went back over to Augusta.
(11:21):
And I just played beautiful Inever played a tournament with
five bogeys. And very unlike me,I was up and down quite a bit.
But to have won on that occasionwill always bring a smile to my
face the rest of my life. And Ireally I'm convinced. I'm
(11:42):
convinced beyond any doubt thatthe Lord was honoring Harvey
through me. That's the only wayI can explain it,
Bruce Devlin (11:53):
He was probably watching you too.
Ben Crenshaw (11:56):
Yeah. Yeah, he was.
Mike Gonzalez (11:59):
You know,looking, looking back on it, reading
about it, watching the videos,particularly last day, seeing
some of the fortunate breaksthat you got. There was a higher
power at work it seemed thatweek. So tell me that you must
have had a wonderful high schoolteam with you and Tom Kite
playing for your Austin highschool team.
Ben Crenshaw (12:23):
Well we did Austin high was a was a very good team.
We won the state twice. And TomKite's team Austin McCallum,
good bunch of players too. So wealways had things to make us
keen. And when I started playingthe state junior at Brackenridge
(12:46):
Park at San Antonio. Man, youknow, there were 600 entries.
And you could see all these kidsfrom around the state. God that
was a particular favoritetournament of mine, old
Brackenridge Park was such a funplace to play. But you'd see all
these guys play and you can seehow you stacked up. God it was
(13:09):
fun with so much fun.
Mike Gonzalez (13:11):
So take us through the college decision
because you must have had a fewschools coming after you and I
don't know if you were closeenough with Tom to where you
sort of commiserated andstrategized on whether you might
attend the same school together.
Talk us through that.
Ben Crenshaw (13:27):
Well, I did. I was recruited mainly through
University of Houston, and SMUup in Dallas. And I had a
girlfriend at the time. NancyHagar, who was a wonderful
player. She made the Curtis Cupteam and her parents were the
(13:47):
pros at Northwood Club there inDallas, where they had the 1952
National Open where Julius Boriswon, but I played a lot of golf
there. I like Dallas. But myties were too strong here in
Austin. Besides Tom Kite, we hada good team building so George
(14:11):
Hannon was our coach. And we wowwe had a wonderful time. I
played three years, played a lotof tournaments for the
University of Texas and wow tohave won the team championship
twice was just fantastic. Gosh,we you know, I always say that I
(14:33):
had the benefit of watching theTexas Longhorn football team,
because they were winningnational championships during
the time and it sort of rubbedoff on us and we were you know,
we thought we were good enoughto compete. And we had a great
example right in front of us. Sothat helped.
Mike Gonzalez (14:52):
Well, you're being modest not mentioning your
three individual NCAA wins oneof those a tie with Tom Kite. I
think in 72.
Ben Crenshaw (15:01):
Yes. I remember when I was a freshman, we played
at Tucson National in 1971. AndI was just back from playing in
the U.S. Open at Merion. And loand behold, I was paired with
(15:22):
Bruce Devlin. And I think it wasthe first two rounds we played.
If I'm not mistaken, Good Lord,I the first time I saw Merion
and I loved it. Oh, what a Whata beautiful golf course. And the
conditions, you know, from thatweek going out to Tucson
National were entirelydifferent. But you know, a few
(15:45):
of us had played in thatnational open there. But, you
know, we were just gainingexperience all the time, and I
was just having fun playing. Butour team won, we made a great
comeback that last day inTucson, and we overhauled
Florida. The Gators we somehowbeat the Gators that day. But we
(16:09):
had a great time. Then it wasthe following year in 1972 were
Bruce gave the clinic there. AndBruce, they tell me that course
is no longer there. Cape Coral,which is sad. But we somehow
came out on top there
Bruce Devlin (16:26):
Met a lot of really bright young players back
then, you know, obviously, ledby both Ben and Tom, but golf
courses come and go. I guess,Ben and you know a little bit
about that, too.
Ben Crenshaw (16:40):
Yeah, I do. We've had a couple of casualties.
Bruce, you know, sad to see forone reason or another. But you
know, you and Jack Nicklaus andArnold Palmer, shifted your
careers, your playing careersand and you know, you having
(17:05):
grown up in Australia, some ofthe favorite courses of mine are
in Australia. Wow, I count mylucky blessings that I've gotten
to play Royal Melbourne,Kingston Heath, Commonwealth,
all the courses. I just, I justabsolutely fell in love with
(17:28):
with architecture. And I did atan early age, I was 16 when I
went to Boston, and playing TheCountry Club in Brookline, that
was a totally different golfcourse. I was fascinated. And
that's really where I got mylove of golf architecture and
golf history. And man my headhas been in a book ever since I
(17:52):
can't get enough. I wanted toknow who who built the golf
course, what their otheraccomplishments were. And I felt
very, I felt very privilegedthat I was playing a place like
Merion. I just fell in love withall of it.
Bruce Devlin (18:15):
So Ben aftr seeing, playing and reading
about all these golf courses.
Give me a little bit of an ideaof your actual philosophy,
regarding building golf courseson different pieces of property.
How do you how do you start?
Ben Crenshaw (18:32):
Well, Bruce, I, at least my I had the great fortune
of having a most wonderfulpartner in Bill Coore. You know,
I'm pretty lucky 1985 was anunbelievable year for me because
I married Julie that year and Istruck up a partnership with
Bill Coore. So it was a greatyear for me. But Bruce, what we
(18:58):
do is find a suitable piece ofland, number one. We don't
particularly enjoy moving a lotof dirt. Although you and I know
that there's so many people inthe business who can move full
(19:19):
scale pieces of Earth and do itreally well. We're just not. We
don't like to do that that much.
We've been lucky about thepieces of property that we've
worked with and we'd rather letthe land speak for itself and
make the holes fit the land. Ialways thought that that was an
(19:41):
interesting study when you go towhen you go to Great Britain and
see some of the Scottish andIrish courses. They found a
particular piece of land andthey let the holes fit that And
that was really a wonderfulstudy in Australia. Australia
(20:03):
has some of the best land I'veseen for golf courses, you know,
blessed with beautiful sand,handsome bunkers. And a mildly
rolling property. But no, I havefrom what I enjoyed reading, and
(20:23):
I thought that was the best wayto do it. So we start with a
good piece of land. And we, I'vealways said that the easiest
thing in the world is to build ahard golf course. I think that
it can be imbalanced and youwant everybody to enjoy the
(20:47):
game. You have to think aboutother people who play you know,
it's one thing to have atournament golf course, you can
make that very tough. Butthere's, there's a way for
elasticity, as well, some of thegreat courses in the world. I
think anybody can can play them.
(21:08):
And you know, we I guess you gotto go back to the original. The
Old Course at St. Andrews is themost fascinating course to me.
Still, I mean, everyone who canhold a club can play that
course. And it's just there'syou, I suppose you could play it
for half your life and stilllearn things about it every day.
(21:30):
It's just endlessly intriguing.
Bruce Devlin (21:34):
It's one of the one of the only golf courses
that I've ever played where, onyour way out, you play into the
wind, and then the tide changeswhen you hole your putt at nine,
and then you play back into thedamn wind again, on the way in
so one day it can play 6,500yards and the next day it can
play, you know, 7,000 yards, thewind has such a bearing on that
(21:59):
golf course.
Ben Crenshaw (22:00):
It really does.
And it really makes you youknow, as you're playing, you go
well, I can't I can't rememberthat over there. And I said, you
know, the other day I playedpast that and you know, now
you're 50 yards short of it,you'd have to possess a great
amount of knowledge on thatcourse. And it's obstacles to
(22:21):
get around and it's it's stillit hasn't been tampered with
that much. It's just it's athing unto itself. Really
Bruce Devlin (22:33):
A few extra T's, but not much, Ben, I know you
played in the eyes and ourcouple you guys were able to be
victorious at it when when Ifirst went to the Old Course at
St. Andrews was for theinaugural Eisenhower Cup
matches. And on the second daywe played there, the 11th hole,
(22:54):
the little par three, right?
What is it about 165, 170 I'mtalking about back then it's a
lot longer now. But I remember,not one soul in the entire field
could reach the green with adriver. That wind was coming out
of the cross from the airbasethere from the north and must
(23:17):
have been blowing 55 miles anhour There was a R&A member who
was standing on the left frontof the green. And when when
because everybody had the chipwhen you chipped he'd chase the
ball. And as soon as it stopped,he'd put a coin behind it for
you. Well, that, you know, thatwent on for about oh, I don't
(23:38):
know about an hour. And thenthen they decided that this
really wasn't golf. So they theycalled it off for the day. So I
thought that was very, veryinteresting that
Ben Crenshaw (23:50):
Oh my God, that's amazing.
Mike Gonzalez (23:54):
Ben just for history purposes. That was 1958
the inaugural Eisenhower andBruce, why don't you remind us
of who the winning team was thatyear?
Bruce Devlin (24:04):
Yeah, well, the Americans finish second to a
little upstart team from down inAustralia. Which was a lot of
fun. And then fortunately forme, I got a chance to come back.
Back in 1960, when when weplayed it, Merion that was when
that was when Nicholas brokeHogan scoring record around
(24:27):
Merion which, which was quiteunbelievable the score he shot I
you know, I still still amazingtoday.
Mike Gonzalez (24:36):
And the event 1958 Bruce, as I recall, you had
an opportunity to meet BobbyJones. At the Old Course
Bruce Devlin (24:43):
I had the most remarkable evening that I've
ever spent in my life. That thatparticular evening on the
Thursday night. The city of St.
Andrews gave Bobby Jones thekeys to the city. And of course
in those days, he was in hiswheelchair. So they wheeled him
into the auditorium. They hadit in the town hall. And when he
(25:05):
got up to make his speech heactually pulled himself out of
the chair to an upright positionin front of the microphone and
just gave him the most wonderfulspeech that you Yeah, I don't
think there was a dry in thehouse it was quite remarkable.
And, you know, when you think ofthink of what he did as a
(25:26):
player, as Ben said, He not onlywas a great player, but he was
a, you know, a great orator anda serious thinker. It was a
terrific night.
Ben Crenshaw (25:38):
I have I have a copy of that speech. And I'm
just so heartened to know thatyou were there. It was quite an
occasion, as Bruce said, I'veread about it. But to know that
you were there, I know that youfelt the full gravity of, of, of
(26:03):
how he made that speech. And asan extemporaneous speech, it had
to be one of the best of alltime,
Bruce Devlin (26:12):
I think so
Ben Crenshaw (26:12):
He talked and talked about, talked about
friendship amongst the nations,but personal friendships and
what what the word meant to him.
And I remember talking to thegreat sports writer, Herbert
Warren Wind who was there. Andhe said, after he spoke, he's
no, he said, Nobody could talkfor 10 minutes. It was so
(26:36):
powerful.
Bruce Devlin (26:40):
It was quite quite an occasion Ben.
Mike Gonzalez (26:44):
Ben I was on a walk this morning with my wife
and our dog. And I ran into afriend and mentioned that we'd
be speaking this morning. Andone question they thought they'd
like to know from you, relativeto your interest in golf history
is do you remember the momentthat really kind of sunk in you
said, Yeah, I really want tolearn more. You mentioned a
(27:07):
little bit about your trip toBrookline. Is that when it
started, or do you reallyrecall?
Ben Crenshaw (27:12):
It certainly did.
In Brookline, my father and Iwent up there it was 1968 USGA
Jr. And we, you know, is a tripthat I've never been to Boston,
and we took the whole town in,we went to Fenway Park to watch
the baseball. Now, we we went onthe Freedom Trail in downtown
(27:38):
Boston. And then to I hadstarted to read a little history
before that, and I found thatthis was the place where Francis
Ouimet won in 1913. A 20 yearold amateur from across the
street from the Country Club,beat the two best British
(28:01):
players at the time, HarryVardon, and Ted Ray, in 1913,
and an unlikely victory, but asI recall that it was one of the
first times that golf wasmentioned on the front page of
any paper in the nation. It hadsuch an effect. But the way that
(28:25):
he won Francis and coming fromacross the street and caddied at
the course it was just a, anidyllic sort of story. And lo
and behold, he Francis made aputt on the 17th green there. Of
(28:50):
course, that was the 71st holeof the tournament. And then they
got in the playoff and then hemade another putt on that green
number 17. And his house wasright across the street from the
property and the whole story iscaptivating, so I kept that. I
(29:15):
knew the Francis Ouimet storyforever. And lo and behold later
on I became named as Captain ofthe Ryder Cup at Brookline. And
probably the most improbableputt that I have ever seen go
down was Justin Leonard's putton the 17th green. Now there's
(29:38):
something very spooky aboutthat. It was absolutely spooky.
And we are we were rightly sorightly called out for, but it
was kind of unsportsmanlike. Itreally was We shouldn't have
(29:59):
done. We shouldn't havecelebrated that. But nobody in
the world would have expectedJustin Leonard to make that
putt. But wasn't that spookythat that's Francis' green. So
from then on I called JustinFrancis. He always gives me that
funny look. And I said you didit. It was it was surreal. Just
(30:23):
surreal. I was. I was kneelingon the back of that green with
Dave Anderson from the New YorkTimes. We kneeled together and
Justin made that putt. And Ilooked at Dave and I said,
That's Francis. And he juststarted laughing. It was just
(30:43):
amazing. What a week what a weekthat was.
Mike Gonzalez (30:50):
What a week is right. Let's take you back just
briefly to your your amateurcareer. Is there anything you
didn't win as an amateur?
Ben Crenshaw (30:57):
Oh, yeah, I did not win the U.S. Amateur that I
wanted to. I finished second toVinnie Giles, the great old
amateur from Richmond, Virginia.
We played at Charlotte CountryClub in Charlotte, North
Carolina and I was second tohim. But I did not win the U.S.
Amateur I would have loved tobut I didn't do it. No, I I was
having so much fun. I played inthe Southern Amateur and the
(31:27):
Western Amateur. TheTransMississippi, I was getting
some great competition. Andplaying against some wonderful
players. I was just having aball.
Mike Gonzalez (31:43):
I won't recount for our listeners, all the
amateur wins. But you mentionedseveral of them and the list
just goes on and on and on. Youwant a whole lot of tournaments.
Back in that early 70's stretch.
I wanted to ask you about theWalker Cup. Did the timing just
not work out?
Ben Crenshaw (32:01):
Wow, ironically, ironically, I would have made
the team lo and behold at the atthe Country Club in Brookline,
that was the 1973 team. And Ihad a really tough decision
because that was a place thatI'd had a lot of affinity for,
(32:23):
and I'd played there before. Butwe had a decision to make
whether you wanted to turnprofessional or stay an amateur
and play in that Walker Cup, itwould have cost me one more
year. So I've decided for betteror worse to turn professional.
(32:45):
So I started in that fall of1973 and had to go to the
qualifying school and then triedto make my way.
Mike Gonzalez (32:57):
I think it worked out because you won your first
tournament didn't you?
Ben Crenshaw (33:00):
Well, I was in San Antonio, at the Texas Open and I
remember I had to battle GeorgeArcher and Mike Hill and Orville
Moody. They were trying to chaseme down. And somehow I made a
couple of putts and I got aheadof them stayed ahead of them.
(33:21):
But that was quite a beginning.
And you know, God, everybodysaid, well, you just I guess
you're just going to win a wholebunch of 'em. I said, Wait a
minute, I had an exceptionalweek and let's let's just let's
try to start and gain a littleknowledge and little proficiency
and keep going but I had a veryup and down very up and down
(33:44):
career I had a my I was hardlyconsistent. I'd play well for a
while. And then I'd fall backand start experimenting or
you're doing something and itvery much like this. It was I
was never even keeled, let'ssay. So. But that's what golf
is. its ups and downs. Isn't itBruce?
Bruce Devlin (34:08):
Yeah, I was just gonna say I don't think I know.
Very, very few players that everplayed golf for a living can say
that they were consistently goodall the time. I mean, even the
great Jack Nicklaus, you know,we've he certainly probably
until Tiger came along was thewas the guy that we thought was
the best player that ever lived.
But you know, he had thesemoments as well. So.
Ben Crenshaw (34:31):
He did you know, you Bruce, you remember you,
Jack Nicklaus came back and wonat Baltusrol in 1980. And he had
a dry spell before that, youknow, Phil Rogers have helped
him on his short game. He workedvery hard to get back up in
there and then he playedbrilliantly at Baltusrol and
Isao Aoki almost chased him downthere, but that was a great
(34:54):
comeback of sorts.
Bruce Devlin (34:55):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Mike Gonzalez (34:57):
So Ben went when you had a sort of a trough in
your game? What was typicallygoing on? Was it mental? Was it
physical? Was itexperimentation? What was it
Ben Crenshaw (35:08):
I, I really enjoyed talking to other players
generally?
about golf and about the golfswing. And I would get sidelined
on a different thought and I wastrying to do this or do that.
And, you know, I kept comingback to Austin and Harvey would
(35:31):
would look at me. I remember onetime he got pretty upset with
me. He said, I said, Harvey, I'mkind of lost. He said, Well,
let's go, I'll say I want to seea few. So I hit about 10 balls.
And Harvey didn't say one word.
And then he looked at me, and heput his arm on my shoulder. And
(35:53):
he said, Ben, don't wait thislong to come back and see me.
And wow. And patiently. Youknow, he, he would say something
like, swing like Ben, swing likeBen. And I tell you what, when
(36:15):
you're filled with thoughts, andlittle habits, it's tough to
find your way back to that. Isuppose, Bruce, that, you know,
all of us are built differently,our physical characteristics are
different. But we all have oneswing. And and we know what that
(36:40):
swing is, we know what it feelslike. But sometimes your
thoughts get you to a pointwhere you stray from that, and
you try to do something thatsomebody else is doing. And then
finally, you say, Look, I'm justincapable of that. So I was born
with a swing, and I have to findit again. And it happened many
(37:03):
times in my career. So I didplay my best golf when I had
almost no thoughts up here. Youplayed by instinct, and you felt
like your ball position wasgood, and your fundamentals were
good. You had your own rhythm.
And gradually, you find your wayback again to play good golf.
(37:30):
But boy, it's a tough game. It'sa really tough game.
Bruce Devlin (37:34):
Ben, you mentioned something right then about ball
position. I've always, I'vealways been a great believer in
it's a combination between ballposition and alignment. Because
you may have one, right, and theother one may be a little bit
off, and it won't go where,you're thinking it's going to
go. So that to me is always beenthe key, you know, when I see
(37:58):
good players that get a littlebit off, they do it very, very
gradually either move the balltoo far forward, or they get
themselves too open to thetarget. Most people probably get
too closed to the target. But Ithink ball position and
alignment together is the mostone of the most important parts
(38:18):
of a golf swing.
Ben Crenshaw (38:20):
And, Bruce, I don't think that you could have
said that better because the twogo hand in hand ball position
dictates alignment, and, youknow, and it disrupts your
timing, you know, your yourfocal point, you know, sometimes
you get over the ball and yousay, well, that ball looks good
(38:41):
to me in my stance. And I alwaysfound that if I put it too far
back, I was a little bit to theright. And then if I was my ball
was too far up in my stance, I'dbe a little bit left so but I
know I played my best golf whenI didn't, I sort of fell into
(39:03):
that stance. And it helped mybackswing and I felt like the
first two feet of my backswingwas smoother, then it was
something that you didn't haveto search for. So, but it's
difficult. I remember DavidGraham, I'll never forget this.
David Graham told me. He said,you know, when I hit the ball
(39:23):
the best at certain times, Iwould sort of make a paper graph
and to have his feet and hisball depicted on that. And he
said that was sort of a staticlook at how I was playing really
(39:46):
well at that time. And that madethat made a lot of sense.
Mike Gonzalez (39:53):
So Ben, coming off the collegiate and amateur
career that you had, why don'tyou describe for our listeners
the sort of mental outlook levelof confidence that you brought
onto the tour as young man andmaybe compare and contrast that
to the, the younger guys comingon the scene today.
Ben Crenshaw (40:14):
Well, I mean, I was a good player and I had the
benefit of playing probably adozen professional events. When
I was an amateur, I was playingwell at the time, and I was
capable and played some goodtournaments. But you know, part
of, of getting on the Tour islearning how to travel, you
(40:41):
know, where you go, where do youeat, you know, who you hang out
with so many different things.
It's no different than what theydo now. But I can tell you, from
what I see, these days, thereare more really fine, capable
young players that can reallyplay golf, but maybe probably
(41:05):
better than I thought of. I'mastounded at their abilities.
Apart from hitting the ball along way. I'm talking about
different departments of thegame, and learning how to score
when you're not playing well,which is a lot of it. And
(41:26):
learning to adapt. Learningcourses. All of it is very, very
interesting to watch. I, youknow, one young player that came
to my mind, you know, a fewweeks ago was this young Will
Zalatoris. And man, what a whata brilliant young player. I
(41:51):
mean, he hasn't had a whole lotof experience, and he played
really well at Augusta. Butplayers like him, I just see so
many good ones. God, they're,they're incredible how they can
play at a young age. I'm notsaying it's like tennis, the
(42:12):
tennis, you know, people excelat a really young age, and then
they're done when they're 30years old. But the level of
competition around the world isreally keen. And I must say that
Hideki Matsuyama. Hisperformance at Augusta is is
(42:34):
really something to, to takenote of he was carrying the
whole weight of the country ofJapan on his shoulders, played
some of the most beautifullittle shots that I've ever
seen. And I think Bruce willagree with me that that was one
huge department of the game thatthat won for him in the scoring,
(42:56):
and he hits the ball beautifullyhad that run, which was
astounding after that delay. Butman, he kept hitting those
little pitches, all sorts ofpitches, and bunker shots, saved
a lot of shots. So, Bruce, and Iknow how, how important the
(43:18):
short game is, you know, if theshort game doesn't happen, your
scoring is not going to happen.
So I'm amazed at some of thelevel of proficiency these guys
have these days.
Bruce Devlin (43:32):
Well, and Augusta National is a perfect example of
a golf course if you're a littlebit off you better have a short
game, man. If you you know,we've always said some guys can
get it up and down out of out ofa wastebasket. But I'm telling
you, you need a lot of talentaround you think of think of
some of the little chips that hehit during that Masters win this
(43:54):
year. They were just absolutelysuperb. I think you nailed it.
You know he drove the ball good.
But boy did he have his shortgame going.
Ben Crenshaw (44:03):
Bruce, I don't know about you. But you know all
the times that you and I haveplayed there. You know, you can
hit all the little shots aroundand practice all you want to
around the greens and somehowwhen you miss the green you get
over the ball and you go golly Ihaven't had this one before.
I've got I've got you have toexecute and imagination. And
(44:25):
that's what makes itfascinating.
Mike Gonzalez (44:28):
Thank you for listening to another episode of
"FORE the Good of the Game." Andplease, wherever you listen to
your podcast on Apple andSpotify, if you like what you
hear, please subscribe, spreadthe word and tell your friends.
Until we tee it up again, "FOREthe Good of the Game", so long
everybody.
Music playing (44:51):
Outro music.
Intro music
Mike Gonzalez (00:16):
Welcome to another edition of "FORE the
Good of the Game" and BruceDevlin, I'm really excited about
our guest this morning.
Bruce Devlin (00:23):
I'm not going to tell you who it is. I'll just
give you an idea who it is. Hewas a 19-time winner on the PGA
Tour. A dual Masters champion,three NCAA titles when he played
in college. He's in thearchitectural business. He's got
(00:44):
a wife and three daughters,which keep him busy. And we're
just so proud to have BenCrenshaw with us this morning.
Welcome, Ben.
Ben Crenshaw (00:53):
Thank you, Bruce.
My old buddy. We've played a lotof practice rounds. A lot of
tournaments together. It's apleasure to be with you and
Mike. You know, it's we've hada, I've had a, I've had a very
nice career and the people thatBruce you and I've met and
(01:15):
played with means a lot to me atthis point in life, and I feel
very lucky and fortunate to havegone so always nice to reminisce
with old pals.
Bruce Devlin (01:30):
Well, thank you, Ben, we were looking forward to
chatting about all yourwonderful career this morning.
And, Mike, you know, we've hadsome nice guests, but but this
one's pretty special.
Mike Gonzalez (01:43):
Yeah, he sure is.
And we've got so much to talkabout. Ben, I think it might be
good just to try to reminisceyou two, in terms of when did
you first encounter each other?
What's your recollection of thatBen?
Ben Crenshaw (01:57):
Wow, you know, I had the I was lucky, I got
invited as an amateur to theChampions, Houston Champions
tournament at Jackie Burke'sclub. And I played in the
Colonial tournament three timesas an amateur. And we met, you
(02:20):
know, on the tournament trail inTexas, I'm sure. And I I had
two, I was invited twice toAugusta. And I can't tell you
how many practice rounds that Iplayed with Bruce and David
Graham. I just remember thosedays so vividly. had so much fun
(02:43):
playing with them. And they,let's just face it, they were
very nice to me I enjoyed theircompany. And I really got to see
golf at a top level. And I waslistening all the time. I just
enjoyed their company. And theywere very nice to have me along.
Bruce Devlin (03:02):
I'm going to I'm going to prod your memory and a
little bit Benjamin in 1972, theNCAA's were played in Florida at
a place called Cape Coral. Andthere was a PGA Professional who
went there and did a clinic forall of you guys, you remember
who it was.
Ben Crenshaw (03:25):
It had to be the "Devil."
Bruce Devlin (03:28):
It was the "Devil" that was that was that was great
meeting you and Tom and all theboys from the University of
Texas and obviously all theother guys that you played
against as an amateur. I'll tellyou what, it was a great crew.
If you look across all of theuniversities, aside from
Crenshaw and Kite being thestandouts of Texas, there are a
(03:50):
lot of other good players there,too.
Ben Crenshaw (03:53):
Oh, you bet. You know, I had the benefit. When I
started traveling, as an amateurI started meeting and playing
against people that I would playwith the rest of my career. And
you're so right, Bruce, youknow, during that NCAA, there
had some fabulous players. I'lltell you one player that always
(04:14):
stood out to me. Could have beenone of the best ball strikers I
saw at that age was a guy namedEddie Pierce. He was from Tampa,
Florida. And he went to WakeForest, but I met Eddie when I
was 16 years old in Boston. Whenhe won the US Junior at
(04:35):
Brookline, and I'm telling youwhat this guy could play like
you can't believe God he wasgood. And his buddy Gary Koch,
and who was a fabulous playerBill Kratzert are all kinds of
people that we will later playwith but you know, one thing
sticks out in my memory when westarted playing together, Bruce,
(04:57):
and then David Graham pointed itout to me. We would watch you.
And David would look at me said,Look, Look at his eyes. And so
what do you mean? Just Justlook, just watch his eyes. When
he's when he's when he'sswinging, and especially on the
downswing and your eyes werefixed, past the ball, not on the
(05:20):
ball, but past the ball. And Ilooked again, and I said, Wow, I
just saw that. And, and I lookedat David, and I said, What's he
trying to do? He said, He'strying to pass that club head
over that spot through the ball.
I've never seen anybody do that.
But boy, could you do it and youhit the ball so solidly. I said,
(05:42):
Wow, that's, that's prettyinteresting. But David pointed
that out to me early on.
Bruce Devlin (05:47):
Well, I don't know how it all started. But that
was, that was something that alot of people used to say about
me, you know, why the hell don'tyou look at the ball instead of
looking in front of it.
Ben Crenshaw (06:01):
You know, that reminds that reminds me of a, of
a Bobby Jones quote, you know,and I, you know, I'm like a lot
of other people, I hold him insuch high esteem. And I was
fascinated how he wrote aboutthe game. He was such a, he had
such command of the Englishlanguage and brilliant writer.
(06:23):
And someone asked Jones, hesaid, Mr. Jones, do you look at
the ball? Do you stare a hole init? And he said, No, I don't, he
said I'm merely conscious of itslocation. Which was an
interesting way. I'd never heardthat before.
Bruce Devlin (06:40):
Well, I'm gonna move isn't until you shifted.
Ben Crenshaw (06:42):
No. You're right.
It's a stationary object, andwe're trying to make it behave
and man and sometimes we don't.
Bruce Devlin (06:51):
How true that is.
Mike Gonzalez (06:53):
So Bruce, you are recollecting your what you
remember to be your firstencounter with Ben Crenshaw back
in 1972. Let's go back 20 years,Ben to growing up in, in Austin,
Texas. Tell us a little bitabout what that was like.
Ben Crenshaw (07:11):
Wow, I had, I could not have had a better
upbringing. My father was a goodplayer, a lawyer, and had a
bunch of good golfing friends.
And my brother and I started Istarted when I was seven years
old. My brother was 15 monthsolder. We were members of the
Austin Country Club under HarveyPenick. And, well, I had a bunch
(07:34):
of good little players aroundme. And it you know, there's no
substitute for competition. And,gosh, when I was when I was when
Tom Kite was 11 or 12 years old,he came to Austin and started
playing with us. And his fatherwas a good player. And he was
(08:01):
the Internal Revenue ServiceDirector there in Austin. But I
could tell from the moment I metTom, and that was a, an
adversary. A wonderful guy said,My gosh, you know, if I could
play with him and and beat himevery once in a while, I
(08:23):
couldn't have had bettercompetition, but there were 10
other kids who could play so inmy mind, I was watching good
golf. And it just helped. AndHarvey was one of those people
who sort of kept his eye oneveryone. Harvey was a dear,
(08:43):
dear man who helped us all and aconsummate professional. Very,
very, very few words. But theystuck. very much a
fundamentalist.
Mike Gonzalez (09:05):
So Ben, it sounds like you're a lot like Bruce and
I, in terms of how you picked upthe game, we all picked it up,
really and got introduced to itfrom our fathers.
Ben Crenshaw (09:16):
Well, I mean, we I, you know, you couldn't have
better guidance, obviously, withyour parents and if they play
golf. You know, you. I know. InBruce's case, I'm sure that, you
know, sometimes there's anoverbearing parent that maybe
(09:39):
stifles the growth of youth butI had the best dad he was a
little tough on me, but he wasnot overbearing. And I see that
so many times. But apart from myfather Harvey was like a second
father to me. I owe almosteverything I ever did in golf to
(10:05):
that man. And we had him for along time, a long time. And he
was so, so fundamental, sodirect and easily understood.
Although he could get verytechnical with someone like Tom
kite who was way more technicalthan I was. Tom was a practicer.
(10:31):
I practiced a little bit, butI'd rather play. But Harvey knew
that and sort of kept ourteaching separate at an early
age. So we've benefited fromthat. He knew he wanted to know
what kind of person you were.
Then he went, he went very muchon that. But wow, to have the
end of his life, at Augusta thatweek, I still can't believe it.
(10:59):
I mean, I played beautifullythat week. But when it was
happening on Harvey's death, youknow, Tom Kite now we're
pallbearers that week. And wecame back to Austin and buried
him I went back over to Augusta.
(11:21):
And I just played beautiful Inever played a tournament with
five bogeys. And very unlike me,I was up and down quite a bit.
But to have won on that occasionwill always bring a smile to my
face the rest of my life. And Ireally I'm convinced. I'm
(11:42):
convinced beyond any doubt thatthe Lord was honoring Harvey
through me. That's the only wayI can explain it,
Bruce Devlin (11:53):
He was probably watching you too.
Ben Crenshaw (11:56):
Yeah. Yeah, he was.
Mike Gonzalez (11:59):
You know,looking, looking back on it, reading
about it, watching the videos,particularly last day, seeing
some of the fortunate breaksthat you got. There was a higher
power at work it seemed thatweek. So tell me that you must
have had a wonderful high schoolteam with you and Tom Kite
playing for your Austin highschool team.
Ben Crenshaw (12:23):
Well we did Austin high was a was a very good team.
We won the state twice. And TomKite's team Austin McCallum,
good bunch of players too. So wealways had things to make us
keen. And when I started playingthe state junior at Brackenridge
(12:46):
Park at San Antonio. Man, youknow, there were 600 entries.
And you could see all these kidsfrom around the state. God that
was a particular favoritetournament of mine, old
Brackenridge Park was such a funplace to play. But you'd see all
these guys play and you can seehow you stacked up. God it was
(13:09):
fun with so much fun.
Mike Gonzalez (13:11):
So take us through the college decision
because you must have had a fewschools coming after you and I
don't know if you were closeenough with Tom to where you
sort of commiserated andstrategized on whether you might
attend the same school together.
Talk us through that.
Ben Crenshaw (13:27):
Well, I did. I was recruited mainly through
University of Houston, and SMUup in Dallas. And I had a
girlfriend at the time. NancyHagar, who was a wonderful
player. She made the Curtis Cupteam and her parents were the
(13:47):
pros at Northwood Club there inDallas, where they had the 1952
National Open where Julius Boriswon, but I played a lot of golf
there. I like Dallas. But myties were too strong here in
Austin. Besides Tom Kite, we hada good team building so George
(14:11):
Hannon was our coach. And we wowwe had a wonderful time. I
played three years, played a lotof tournaments for the
University of Texas and wow tohave won the team championship
twice was just fantastic. Gosh,we you know, I always say that I
(14:33):
had the benefit of watching theTexas Longhorn football team,
because they were winningnational championships during
the time and it sort of rubbedoff on us and we were you know,
we thought we were good enoughto compete. And we had a great
example right in front of us. Sothat helped.
Mike Gonzalez (14:52):
Well, you're being modest not mentioning your
three individual NCAA wins oneof those a tie with Tom Kite. I
think in 72.
Ben Crenshaw (15:01):
Yes. I remember when I was a freshman, we played
at Tucson National in 1971. AndI was just back from playing in
the U.S. Open at Merion. And loand behold, I was paired with
(15:22):
Bruce Devlin. And I think it wasthe first two rounds we played.
If I'm not mistaken, Good Lord,I the first time I saw Merion
and I loved it. Oh, what a Whata beautiful golf course. And the
conditions, you know, from thatweek going out to Tucson
National were entirelydifferent. But you know, a few
(15:45):
of us had played in thatnational open there. But, you
know, we were just gainingexperience all the time, and I
was just having fun playing. Butour team won, we made a great
comeback that last day inTucson, and we overhauled
Florida. The Gators we somehowbeat the Gators that day. But we
(16:09):
had a great time. Then it wasthe following year in 1972 were
Bruce gave the clinic there. AndBruce, they tell me that course
is no longer there. Cape Coral,which is sad. But we somehow
came out on top there
Bruce Devlin (16:26):
Met a lot of really bright young players back
then, you know, obviously, ledby both Ben and Tom, but golf
courses come and go. I guess,Ben and you know a little bit
about that, too.
Ben Crenshaw (16:40):
Yeah, I do. We've had a couple of casualties.
Bruce, you know, sad to see forone reason or another. But you
know, you and Jack Nicklaus andArnold Palmer, shifted your
careers, your playing careersand and you know, you having
(17:05):
grown up in Australia, some ofthe favorite courses of mine are
in Australia. Wow, I count mylucky blessings that I've gotten
to play Royal Melbourne,Kingston Heath, Commonwealth,
all the courses. I just, I justabsolutely fell in love with
(17:28):
with architecture. And I did atan early age, I was 16 when I
went to Boston, and playing TheCountry Club in Brookline, that
was a totally different golfcourse. I was fascinated. And
that's really where I got mylove of golf architecture and
golf history. And man my headhas been in a book ever since I
(17:52):
can't get enough. I wanted toknow who who built the golf
course, what their otheraccomplishments were. And I felt
very, I felt very privilegedthat I was playing a place like
Merion. I just fell in love withall of it.
Bruce Devlin (18:15):
So Ben aftr seeing, playing and reading
about all these golf courses.
Give me a little bit of an ideaof your actual philosophy,
regarding building golf courseson different pieces of property.
How do you how do you start?
Ben Crenshaw (18:32):
Well, Bruce, I, at least my I had the great fortune
of having a most wonderfulpartner in Bill Coore. You know,
I'm pretty lucky 1985 was anunbelievable year for me because
I married Julie that year and Istruck up a partnership with
Bill Coore. So it was a greatyear for me. But Bruce, what we
(18:58):
do is find a suitable piece ofland, number one. We don't
particularly enjoy moving a lotof dirt. Although you and I know
that there's so many people inthe business who can move full
(19:19):
scale pieces of Earth and do itreally well. We're just not. We
don't like to do that that much.
We've been lucky about thepieces of property that we've
worked with and we'd rather letthe land speak for itself and
make the holes fit the land. Ialways thought that that was an
(19:41):
interesting study when you go towhen you go to Great Britain and
see some of the Scottish andIrish courses. They found a
particular piece of land andthey let the holes fit that And
that was really a wonderfulstudy in Australia. Australia
(20:03):
has some of the best land I'veseen for golf courses, you know,
blessed with beautiful sand,handsome bunkers. And a mildly
rolling property. But no, I havefrom what I enjoyed reading, and
(20:23):
I thought that was the best wayto do it. So we start with a
good piece of land. And we, I'vealways said that the easiest
thing in the world is to build ahard golf course. I think that
it can be imbalanced and youwant everybody to enjoy the
(20:47):
game. You have to think aboutother people who play you know,
it's one thing to have atournament golf course, you can
make that very tough. Butthere's, there's a way for
elasticity, as well, some of thegreat courses in the world. I
think anybody can can play them.
(21:08):
And you know, we I guess you gotto go back to the original. The
Old Course at St. Andrews is themost fascinating course to me.
Still, I mean, everyone who canhold a club can play that
course. And it's just there'syou, I suppose you could play it
for half your life and stilllearn things about it every day.
(21:30):
It's just endlessly intriguing.
Bruce Devlin (21:34):
It's one of the one of the only golf courses
that I've ever played where, onyour way out, you play into the
wind, and then the tide changeswhen you hole your putt at nine,
and then you play back into thedamn wind again, on the way in
so one day it can play 6,500yards and the next day it can
play, you know, 7,000 yards, thewind has such a bearing on that
(21:59):
golf course.
Ben Crenshaw (22:00):
It really does.
And it really makes you youknow, as you're playing, you go
well, I can't I can't rememberthat over there. And I said, you
know, the other day I playedpast that and you know, now
you're 50 yards short of it,you'd have to possess a great
amount of knowledge on thatcourse. And it's obstacles to
(22:21):
get around and it's it's stillit hasn't been tampered with
that much. It's just it's athing unto itself. Really
Bruce Devlin (22:33):
A few extra T's, but not much, Ben, I know you
played in the eyes and ourcouple you guys were able to be
victorious at it when when Ifirst went to the Old Course at
St. Andrews was for theinaugural Eisenhower Cup
matches. And on the second daywe played there, the 11th hole,
(22:54):
the little par three, right?
What is it about 165, 170 I'mtalking about back then it's a
lot longer now. But I remember,not one soul in the entire field
could reach the green with adriver. That wind was coming out
of the cross from the airbasethere from the north and must
(23:17):
have been blowing 55 miles anhour There was a R&A member who
was standing on the left frontof the green. And when when
because everybody had the chipwhen you chipped he'd chase the
ball. And as soon as it stopped,he'd put a coin behind it for
you. Well, that, you know, thatwent on for about oh, I don't
(23:38):
know about an hour. And thenthen they decided that this
really wasn't golf. So they theycalled it off for the day. So I
thought that was very, veryinteresting that
Ben Crenshaw (23:50):
Oh my God, that's amazing.
Mike Gonzalez (23:54):
Ben just for history purposes. That was 1958
the inaugural Eisenhower andBruce, why don't you remind us
of who the winning team was thatyear?
Bruce Devlin (24:04):
Yeah, well, the Americans finish second to a
little upstart team from down inAustralia. Which was a lot of
fun. And then fortunately forme, I got a chance to come back.
Back in 1960, when when weplayed it, Merion that was when
that was when Nicholas brokeHogan scoring record around
(24:27):
Merion which, which was quiteunbelievable the score he shot I
you know, I still still amazingtoday.
Mike Gonzalez (24:36):
And the event 1958 Bruce, as I recall, you had
an opportunity to meet BobbyJones. At the Old Course
Bruce Devlin (24:43):
I had the most remarkable evening that I've
ever spent in my life. That thatparticular evening on the
Thursday night. The city of St.
Andrews gave Bobby Jones thekeys to the city. And of course
in those days, he was in hiswheelchair. So they wheeled him
into the auditorium. They hadit in the town hall. And when he
(25:05):
got up to make his speech heactually pulled himself out of
the chair to an upright positionin front of the microphone and
just gave him the most wonderfulspeech that you Yeah, I don't
think there was a dry in thehouse it was quite remarkable.
And, you know, when you think ofthink of what he did as a
(25:26):
player, as Ben said, He not onlywas a great player, but he was
a, you know, a great orator anda serious thinker. It was a
terrific night.
Ben Crenshaw (25:38):
I have I have a copy of that speech. And I'm
just so heartened to know thatyou were there. It was quite an
occasion, as Bruce said, I'veread about it. But to know that
you were there, I know that youfelt the full gravity of, of, of
(26:03):
how he made that speech. And asan extemporaneous speech, it had
to be one of the best of alltime,
Bruce Devlin (26:12):
I think so
Ben Crenshaw (26:12):
He talked and talked about, talked about
friendship amongst the nations,but personal friendships and
what what the word meant to him.
And I remember talking to thegreat sports writer, Herbert
Warren Wind who was there. Andhe said, after he spoke, he's
no, he said, Nobody could talkfor 10 minutes. It was so
(26:36):
powerful.
Bruce Devlin (26:40):
It was quite quite an occasion Ben.
Mike Gonzalez (26:44):
Ben I was on a walk this morning with my wife
and our dog. And I ran into afriend and mentioned that we'd
be speaking this morning. Andone question they thought they'd
like to know from you, relativeto your interest in golf history
is do you remember the momentthat really kind of sunk in you
said, Yeah, I really want tolearn more. You mentioned a
(27:07):
little bit about your trip toBrookline. Is that when it
started, or do you reallyrecall?
Ben Crenshaw (27:12):
It certainly did.
In Brookline, my father and Iwent up there it was 1968 USGA
Jr. And we, you know, is a tripthat I've never been to Boston,
and we took the whole town in,we went to Fenway Park to watch
the baseball. Now, we we went onthe Freedom Trail in downtown
(27:38):
Boston. And then to I hadstarted to read a little history
before that, and I found thatthis was the place where Francis
Ouimet won in 1913. A 20 yearold amateur from across the
street from the Country Club,beat the two best British
(28:01):
players at the time, HarryVardon, and Ted Ray, in 1913,
and an unlikely victory, but asI recall that it was one of the
first times that golf wasmentioned on the front page of
any paper in the nation. It hadsuch an effect. But the way that
(28:25):
he won Francis and coming fromacross the street and caddied at
the course it was just a, anidyllic sort of story. And lo
and behold, he Francis made aputt on the 17th green there. Of
(28:50):
course, that was the 71st holeof the tournament. And then they
got in the playoff and then hemade another putt on that green
number 17. And his house wasright across the street from the
property and the whole story iscaptivating, so I kept that. I
(29:15):
knew the Francis Ouimet storyforever. And lo and behold later
on I became named as Captain ofthe Ryder Cup at Brookline. And
probably the most improbableputt that I have ever seen go
down was Justin Leonard's putton the 17th green. Now there's
(29:38):
something very spooky aboutthat. It was absolutely spooky.
And we are we were rightly sorightly called out for, but it
was kind of unsportsmanlike. Itreally was We shouldn't have
(29:59):
done. We shouldn't havecelebrated that. But nobody in
the world would have expectedJustin Leonard to make that
putt. But wasn't that spookythat that's Francis' green. So
from then on I called JustinFrancis. He always gives me that
funny look. And I said you didit. It was it was surreal. Just
(30:23):
surreal. I was. I was kneelingon the back of that green with
Dave Anderson from the New YorkTimes. We kneeled together and
Justin made that putt. And Ilooked at Dave and I said,
That's Francis. And he juststarted laughing. It was just
(30:43):
amazing. What a week what a weekthat was.
Mike Gonzalez (30:50):
What a week is right. Let's take you back just
briefly to your your amateurcareer. Is there anything you
didn't win as an amateur?
Ben Crenshaw (30:57):
Oh, yeah, I did not win the U.S. Amateur that I
wanted to. I finished second toVinnie Giles, the great old
amateur from Richmond, Virginia.
We played at Charlotte CountryClub in Charlotte, North
Carolina and I was second tohim. But I did not win the U.S.
Amateur I would have loved tobut I didn't do it. No, I I was
having so much fun. I played inthe Southern Amateur and the
(31:27):
Western Amateur. TheTransMississippi, I was getting
some great competition. Andplaying against some wonderful
players. I was just having aball.
Mike Gonzalez (31:43):
I won't recount for our listeners, all the
amateur wins. But you mentionedseveral of them and the list
just goes on and on and on. Youwant a whole lot of tournaments.
Back in that early 70's stretch.
I wanted to ask you about theWalker Cup. Did the timing just
not work out?
Ben Crenshaw (32:01):
Wow, ironically, ironically, I would have made
the team lo and behold at the atthe Country Club in Brookline,
that was the 1973 team. And Ihad a really tough decision
because that was a place thatI'd had a lot of affinity for,
(32:23):
and I'd played there before. Butwe had a decision to make
whether you wanted to turnprofessional or stay an amateur
and play in that Walker Cup, itwould have cost me one more
year. So I've decided for betteror worse to turn professional.
(32:45):
So I started in that fall of1973 and had to go to the
qualifying school and then triedto make my way.
Mike Gonzalez (32:57):
I think it worked out because you won your first
tournament didn't you?
Ben Crenshaw (33:00):
Well, I was in San Antonio, at the Texas Open and I
remember I had to battle GeorgeArcher and Mike Hill and Orville
Moody. They were trying to chaseme down. And somehow I made a
couple of putts and I got aheadof them stayed ahead of them.
(33:21):
But that was quite a beginning.
And you know, God, everybodysaid, well, you just I guess
you're just going to win a wholebunch of 'em. I said, Wait a
minute, I had an exceptionalweek and let's let's just let's
try to start and gain a littleknowledge and little proficiency
and keep going but I had a veryup and down very up and down
(33:44):
career I had a my I was hardlyconsistent. I'd play well for a
while. And then I'd fall backand start experimenting or
you're doing something and itvery much like this. It was I
was never even keeled, let'ssay. So. But that's what golf
is. its ups and downs. Isn't itBruce?
Bruce Devlin (34:08):
Yeah, I was just gonna say I don't think I know.
Very, very few players that everplayed golf for a living can say
that they were consistently goodall the time. I mean, even the
great Jack Nicklaus, you know,we've he certainly probably
until Tiger came along was thewas the guy that we thought was
the best player that ever lived.
But you know, he had thesemoments as well. So.
Ben Crenshaw (34:31):
He did you know, you Bruce, you remember you,
Jack Nicklaus came back and wonat Baltusrol in 1980. And he had
a dry spell before that, youknow, Phil Rogers have helped
him on his short game. He workedvery hard to get back up in
there and then he playedbrilliantly at Baltusrol and
Isao Aoki almost chased him downthere, but that was a great
(34:54):
comeback of sorts.
Bruce Devlin (34:55):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Mike Gonzalez (34:57):
So Ben went when you had a sort of a trough in
your game? What was typicallygoing on? Was it mental? Was it
physical? Was itexperimentation? What was it
Ben Crenshaw (35:08):
I, I really enjoyed talking to other players
generally?
about golf and about the golfswing. And I would get sidelined
on a different thought and I wastrying to do this or do that.
And, you know, I kept comingback to Austin and Harvey would
(35:31):
would look at me. I remember onetime he got pretty upset with
me. He said, I said, Harvey, I'mkind of lost. He said, Well,
let's go, I'll say I want to seea few. So I hit about 10 balls.
And Harvey didn't say one word.
And then he looked at me, and heput his arm on my shoulder. And
(35:53):
he said, Ben, don't wait thislong to come back and see me.
And wow. And patiently. Youknow, he, he would say something
like, swing like Ben, swing likeBen. And I tell you what, when
(36:15):
you're filled with thoughts, andlittle habits, it's tough to
find your way back to that. Isuppose, Bruce, that, you know,
all of us are built differently,our physical characteristics are
different. But we all have oneswing. And and we know what that
(36:40):
swing is, we know what it feelslike. But sometimes your
thoughts get you to a pointwhere you stray from that, and
you try to do something thatsomebody else is doing. And then
finally, you say, Look, I'm justincapable of that. So I was born
with a swing, and I have to findit again. And it happened many
(37:03):
times in my career. So I didplay my best golf when I had
almost no thoughts up here. Youplayed by instinct, and you felt
like your ball position wasgood, and your fundamentals were
good. You had your own rhythm.
And gradually, you find your wayback again to play good golf.
(37:30):
But boy, it's a tough game. It'sa really tough game.
Bruce Devlin (37:34):
Ben, you mentioned something right then about ball
position. I've always, I'vealways been a great believer in
it's a combination between ballposition and alignment. Because
you may have one, right, and theother one may be a little bit
off, and it won't go where,you're thinking it's going to
go. So that to me is always beenthe key, you know, when I see
(37:58):
good players that get a littlebit off, they do it very, very
gradually either move the balltoo far forward, or they get
themselves too open to thetarget. Most people probably get
too closed to the target. But Ithink ball position and
alignment together is the mostone of the most important parts
(38:18):
of a golf swing.
Ben Crenshaw (38:20):
And, Bruce, I don't think that you could have
said that better because the twogo hand in hand ball position
dictates alignment, and, youknow, and it disrupts your
timing, you know, your yourfocal point, you know, sometimes
you get over the ball and yousay, well, that ball looks good
(38:41):
to me in my stance. And I alwaysfound that if I put it too far
back, I was a little bit to theright. And then if I was my ball
was too far up in my stance, I'dbe a little bit left so but I
know I played my best golf whenI didn't, I sort of fell into
(39:03):
that stance. And it helped mybackswing and I felt like the
first two feet of my backswingwas smoother, then it was
something that you didn't haveto search for. So, but it's
difficult. I remember DavidGraham, I'll never forget this.
David Graham told me. He said,you know, when I hit the ball
(39:23):
the best at certain times, Iwould sort of make a paper graph
and to have his feet and hisball depicted on that. And he
said that was sort of a staticlook at how I was playing really
(39:46):
well at that time. And that madethat made a lot of sense.
Mike Gonzalez (39:53):
So Ben, coming off the collegiate and amateur
career that you had, why don'tyou describe for our listeners
the sort of mental outlook levelof confidence that you brought
onto the tour as young man andmaybe compare and contrast that
to the, the younger guys comingon the scene today.
Ben Crenshaw (40:14):
Well, I mean, I was a good player and I had the
benefit of playing probably adozen professional events. When
I was an amateur, I was playingwell at the time, and I was
capable and played some goodtournaments. But you know, part
of, of getting on the Tour islearning how to travel, you
(40:41):
know, where you go, where do youeat, you know, who you hang out
with so many different things.
It's no different than what theydo now. But I can tell you, from
what I see, these days, thereare more really fine, capable
young players that can reallyplay golf, but maybe probably
(41:05):
better than I thought of. I'mastounded at their abilities.
Apart from hitting the ball along way. I'm talking about
different departments of thegame, and learning how to score
when you're not playing well,which is a lot of it. And
(41:26):
learning to adapt. Learningcourses. All of it is very, very
interesting to watch. I, youknow, one young player that came
to my mind, you know, a fewweeks ago was this young Will
Zalatoris. And man, what a whata brilliant young player. I
(41:51):
mean, he hasn't had a whole lotof experience, and he played
really well at Augusta. Butplayers like him, I just see so
many good ones. God, they're,they're incredible how they can
play at a young age. I'm notsaying it's like tennis, the
(42:12):
tennis, you know, people excelat a really young age, and then
they're done when they're 30years old. But the level of
competition around the world isreally keen. And I must say that
Hideki Matsuyama. Hisperformance at Augusta is is
(42:34):
really something to, to takenote of he was carrying the
whole weight of the country ofJapan on his shoulders, played
some of the most beautifullittle shots that I've ever
seen. And I think Bruce willagree with me that that was one
huge department of the game thatthat won for him in the scoring,
(42:56):
and he hits the ball beautifullyhad that run, which was
astounding after that delay. Butman, he kept hitting those
little pitches, all sorts ofpitches, and bunker shots, saved
a lot of shots. So, Bruce, and Iknow how, how important the
(43:18):
short game is, you know, if theshort game doesn't happen, your
scoring is not going to happen.
So I'm amazed at some of thelevel of proficiency these guys
have these days.
Bruce Devlin (43:32):
Well, and Augusta National is a perfect example of
a golf course if you're a littlebit off you better have a short
game, man. If you you know,we've always said some guys can
get it up and down out of out ofa wastebasket. But I'm telling
you, you need a lot of talentaround you think of think of
some of the little chips that hehit during that Masters win this
(43:54):
year. They were just absolutelysuperb. I think you nailed it.
You know he drove the ball good.
But boy did he have his shortgame going.
Ben Crenshaw (44:03):
Bruce, I don't know about you. But you know all
the times that you and I haveplayed there. You know, you can
hit all the little shots aroundand practice all you want to
around the greens and somehowwhen you miss the green you get
over the ball and you go golly Ihaven't had this one before.
I've got I've got you have toexecute and imagination. And
(44:25):
that's what makes itfascinating.
Mike Gonzalez (44:28):
Thank you for listening to another episode of
"FORE the Good of the Game." Andplease, wherever you listen to
your podcast on Apple andSpotify, if you like what you
hear, please subscribe, spreadthe word and tell your friends.
Until we tee it up again, "FOREthe Good of the Game", so long
everybody.
Music playing (44:51):
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