September 24, 2025 • 45 mins
Every foster and adoptive parent has found themselves desperately searching for sleep solutions at 2 AM, wondering why traditional methods aren't working and if they're somehow failing their child. Sleep consultant Allison Ezell brings a revolutionary perspective to this universal struggle, explaining why children from hard places face unique challenges around bedtime and offering trauma-informed solutions that actually work.
Drawing from both professional expertise and personal experience as an adoptive and foster mom, Allison illuminates why sleep represents a perfect storm for children with trauma histories. "Sleep requires two things that are incredibly difficult for our kids – complete surrender of control and separation from caregivers," she explains. For children whose bodies remember neglect, abandonment, or inconsistent care, closing their eyes to sleep can trigger their deepest fears.
The conversation delves into why traditional sleep training approaches can be harmful for children who've experienced trauma, potentially reinforcing harmful beliefs that crying doesn't bring help or that adults can't be trusted. Instead, Allison offers practical strategies centered on attachment, felt safety, and meeting underlying needs. From understanding sleep associations (how a child falls asleep is how they'll return to sleep all night) to creating sensory-rich bedtime routines that prepare both body and brain for rest, these approaches honor a child's history while building healthy sleep habits.
Perhaps most powerfully, Allison shares how transformative healthy sleep can be for entire families. "People think I'm passionate about kids' sleep, but I'm not. I'm passionate about seeing families choose connection, because it's really hard to choose connection with a kid who kept you up every hour of the night." When everyone starts getting adequate rest, relationships heal, patience returns, and the capacity for joy expands. For many foster and adoptive families, solving sleep challenges becomes the breakthrough that allows them to continue their fostering journey with renewed energy and hope.
Looking for trauma-informed sleep support? Visit dwellpediatricsleep.com to explore Allison's resources, including her online course designed specifically for foster and adoptive families. Your path to better sleep—and stronger family connections—starts here.
Website: www.dwellpediatricsleep.com
Trauma-Informed Healthy Sleep Foundations Course: https://www.dwellpediatricsleep.com/product-page/a-trauma-informed-look-at-healthy-sleep-foundations-course
Instagram: instagram.com/dwellpediatricsleep
I'd love to hear from you! Send me a text!
Connect with me on Instagram: @Fosterparentwell
@nicoletbarlow https://www.instagram.com/nicoletbarlow/
Website: https://nicoletbarlow.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the Foster Parent Well podcast, where we
have real candid, faith-filledconversations about all things
foster care, adoption and trauma.
I'm your host, nicole T Barlow.
I'm a certified parent trainer,a certified health coach and an
adoptive parent myself.
This is a space where you canfind support so that you can
care for your kids with asteadfast faith, endurance and
(00:32):
joy.
I want you to foster parentwell, so let's jump in.
Welcome back to the podcast.
(00:56):
Everybody, my name is NicoleBarlow and I am your host for
today.
I'm so glad you're here.
I'm coming to you today withjust a hint of a scratchy voice,
so if it sounds like I've beenyelling at my kids or singing a
little too hard at church, don'tworry, it's just a little bug
that I picked up.
So I appreciate your grace andunderstanding.
(01:17):
Today, speaking of church andworship and just all the things,
I just got back from the FilledTogether conference hosted by
Jamie Finn and Jason Johnson andy'all.
It was so good, like one ofthose this is holy ground kind
of weekends.
It was a conference just formarried couples in foster care
(01:37):
and adoption and not only did Iget to teach a breakout session,
which I loved, but my husbandgot to come with me, and we got
to attend the conferencetogether as well, which, let's
be honest, is a miracle initself that we were both able to
go.
I mean, it's not every day thatwe get to sneak away together
and actually do something thatfills us up.
(01:58):
It was such a gift to sitshoulder to shoulder with other
couples who are walking the sameroad, folks that are facing the
same joys and the same supernot fun super hard stuff too.
And the worship you guys gosh,just watching a room full of
weary parents, arms raised,hearts open, still choosing
(02:23):
Jesus right in the middle of themess.
You guys, that is the kind ofstuff that stays with you.
It was so powerful andbeautiful and, honestly, it's
exactly what I needed and,honestly, it's what our
relationship needed in thisseason as well.
All right, deep breath.
Let's get into today's episode,because I'm so excited about
(02:45):
this one.
Today, I'm talking with thebrilliant and lovely Allison
Ezell, and we're diving into atopic that every one of us has
probably Googled at 2 am at somepoint, talking about sleep.
Allison is a certifiedpediatric sleep consultant and a
mom of four from Dallas, texas.
She welcomed a son home fromChina with her husband in 2016
(03:09):
and then fostered her youngestchild prior to adoption in 2023.
With a special passion forhelping foster and adoptive
families navigate sleep issues,allison brings a unique angle to
her work, as she's able tobring in the trauma-informed
perspective to a field where ithas long been desperately needed
(03:31):
.
In 2021, she founded DwellPediatric Sleep and since then,
she has served thousands ofsleep-deprived families through
consultations, digital resourcesand corporate speaking.
Consultations, digitalresources and corporate speaking
.
Whether you're parenting kidsfrom hard places or you're right
in the middle of a bedtime, youknow messy bedtime routine that
(03:52):
you're trying to clean up, oryou're just trying to figure out
why your teenager turns into araccoon after 10 pm.
We all know that sleep is a bigdeal, and it's not just for
kids, right?
I mean, I need my kids to getsleep so I can get sleep.
But what happens when traumashows up at bedtime, or when
attachment issues look like atoddler who can't sleep unless
(04:15):
they're physically glued to yourbody?
Or when you're trying toimplement some rhythm and
routine but you're also tryingnot to trigger dysregulation?
We are going to go there.
Into all those spaces, allisonbrings so much wisdom, grace and
practical help and you're notgoing to want to miss a minute
of this conversation, so let'sjump in.
(04:36):
Welcome, allison, to thepodcast.
We're excited to have you ontoday, so why don't you
introduce yourself and tell us alittle bit about how you got
into foster care and adoption?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
First of all, thank you so muchfor having me.
It's such a gift to get to behere with you guys and I just I
love what you're doing with thispodcast.
So, first of all, thank you forhaving me.
So I grew up in a family whereadoption was kind of all over
the place and my grandmother andher brother were actually
(05:08):
adopted from foster careliterally like 100 years ago, in
the 20s, in the 1920s, wow.
So I grew up knowing a littlebit about foster care and
adoption and I ended up marryinga man whose father was adopted.
So we kind of came intomarriage thinking adoption very
well, could be part of ourfamily story and the way we
(05:29):
build our family.
We ended up having twobiological kids in the first
three years of marriage and sowe thought, okay, well, maybe
not, maybe we're good.
And it kind of became one ofthose things that everywhere we
kept looking, we kept seeingsigns and we just kept feeling
led, um, down this direction.
(05:51):
So, um it, we started kind ofdoing some research and, you
know, thinking and kind ofpraying about it and just kind
of saying, okay, we're justgoing to kind of walk this path
and if it's not something we'resupposed to do, I feel like the
door will close, right.
Yeah, we sort of took theapproach like it's a yes until
it's a no, so we startedresearching different types of
(06:13):
adoption.
We ended up choosinginternational adoption for our
first adoption and we adoptedour son, brooks, from China in
2016.
He came home at a year old he'snow nine and while we were over
there, we had just a wildexperience going to the
orphanage where he was stayingand I will say it was more of
(06:36):
like a group foster home.
It was very, very small.
It was nothing like the onesthat you see in those
documentaries, with rows afterrows after rows of cribs, and he
very much had a mama, and so itjust gave me such just a
profound respect for fosterfamilies and what they do loving
kids, whether or not they'regoing to be permanent members of
(06:58):
the family or not, and so itkind of became something that
was kind of in the back of ourminds, something we considered
and, um, he came home and thenwe had a whole host of health
and sleep and a medical issuesthat will, I'm sure, get to Um,
but we were in the trenches forseveral years, um, when he for
(07:21):
adjusting to life with threekids um, they were three kids
under six and so I was very busy, and you know, getting him
acclimated and all those things.
And then COVID actually hit andwe joke that our last, our last
child was our COVID baby.
He was born in March 2020.
(07:43):
And that is when we reallystarted to be pushed towards
foster care and we really justwere just sort of burdened by
like, okay, we're all home andwe're so grateful to have a
place that is safe and healthyand all of that for our kids.
But we just kind of felt thisoverwhelming burden for, like,
(08:04):
but what about the kids thataren't?
What about the kids where homeisn't always the safest place or
they don't have the stabilityand the permanency that our kids
do?
And it was something, again,that had been kind of in the
back of our minds for years andwe just sort of felt like we
were in a stable place, we hadroom in our home, we had room in
our home, we had room in ourfamily, and so we got licensed
(08:27):
during COVID to foster.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Wow, that's an interesting process, it was wild
.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
It was wild.
Everything was done online,which, having three kids already
at home, was actually reallyhelpful.
All the trainings were doneover Zoom, so we started getting
licensed in the summer of 2020.
And it took gosh, maybe ninemonths or so to get.
By the time we went througheverything we had to do,
(08:55):
obviously, cpr and stuff, inperson, but most of it was done
online and so we were licensedand open in April of 2021.
And our son was our third phonecall in two weeks.
I mean, the need was so high.
He was our third phone call intwo weeks and he joined us in
(09:16):
May, early May.
And you know, we weren'tlicensed to adopt.
That was absolutely not ourpurpose, not why we went to this
.
We truly just wanted to be abridge, just to be a temporary
kind of safe spot for a kid toland until they.
You know we're going to move on, um, but as, as you know, as
the plans go, he joined us andnever left and he's still here
(09:40):
and went to kindergarten today.
So so he just startedkindergarten.
So, but yeah, so lots ofdifferent twists and turns and
family history and whatnot, butI do.
I do think meeting my son fromChina's foster mom.
(10:01):
Just it changed my life.
It literally changed my lifeand just gave me such a heart
for the sacrifice um that fosterfamilies are willing to make um
to love without the, withoutany guarantees, without any
guarantees of permanency, withit's.
Just the sacrificial love thatshe had for him just changed my
life and I'm so grateful that,you know, meeting her eventually
(10:25):
led us to our third son andthat we are now part of this
incredible community.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I love how God kind ofweaves all of those pieces right
, like everything you do leadsto how he wants to use you and
your purpose and stuff.
So I just love how he kind ofinterweaves all of that stuff
together.
So you talked a little bitabout when y'all came home from
China.
You kind of dug into somethings and got your hands dirty,
(10:55):
you know when we're talkingabout trauma and stuff.
But specifically on sleep,right, and that has become your
focus.
So how did you come to focus onspecifically on sleep?
Because that's not your focus.
So how did you come to focusspecifically on sleep?
Because that's not youreducational background, correct?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
No, it's not so I have a master's in education.
I was a classroom teacher earlychildhood and I actually taught
all the way through eighthgrade.
Early childhood through eighthgrade.
It was a swing, but it's a bigrange.
But no, I have an educationbackground and um have always
loved child development andthose types of things.
(11:29):
But that was originally kind ofwhere I landed.
I love to teach, I love toconnect with parents, I love to
support and all of those typesof things.
And we came home from China withBrooks and he was two different
people.
There was daytime Brooks, hewas happy-go-lucky, he was, I
(11:51):
mean, attaching beautifully, hewas fun, he was, you know.
And then something happened atnight and he became a different
little boy and his trauma justwas all over night he was
nighttime grieving.
He was awake in panic every twoor three hours all night long.
(12:13):
And so I really went back to mytraining and I thought, okay,
they've talked a lot aboutbehaviors, they've talked a lot
about attachment, they've talkeda lot about, you know, food and
food insecurity and things likethat and navigating that.
But where's the information onsleep?
And so I went back and I saidthere's not any.
There's really not any in yourtraining.
(12:33):
And so I thought, okay, so theydidn't train anybody for this.
Now we're in the midst of sleepstruggles, which is so
incredibly common with fosterand adoptive families, and I
don't know where to go.
So it really was born out of ahole in the space.
Nobody talks about it,everybody's struggling, nobody
(12:58):
knows what they're doing,everybody's throwing spaghetti
at the wall and hoping it sticksand we're all just surviving.
And I thought this isn't okay.
Somebody needs to step intothis space, really do the work
to understand the science ofsleep, understand the science of
trauma, and build a bridge andhelp parents navigate through a
(13:23):
trauma-informed lens sleepissues.
And so I was talking to myhusband about it one day and he
was like I was like I reallywish there was somebody who
could do this.
And he looked at me and he goeswell, you seem pretty
passionate about it.
How about you figure it out?
You figure it out.
And so I um, I got certified asa pediatric sleep consultant in
(13:46):
20, in 2021, literally twomonths after our son joined us.
I started, uh, my coursework.
So I took 200 hours, uh, reallygeeked out on sleep science.
Um, and I've done someadditional trauma training.
Um, I've done some thingsthrough, uh, tbri, karen Purvis,
those types of things, and soit's truly been just, you know,
(14:11):
just a leap of faith of steppinginto a space and saying, man, I
see the need, why not me?
And just watching it blow upjust watching it blow up.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I love that.
I love that and I mean I cansee how God can use your
education background right, yourability to teach and to
transfer information to otherpeople, your background in child
development and how that playsinto everything your history,
personal history with it andyour history with trauma and
trauma training just kind ofpulling all of those pieces
together for this one thing andI think that's amazing.
(14:53):
I kind of did the same thing,so I train, I work with parents
in the health and wellness space, kind of helping with their own
health and wellness, but in atrauma-informed way, because I
think there's so muchinformation out there for people
that don't experience the samethings that we experience every
(15:13):
day that don't have the sameamount of stress and trauma on
their bodies.
And then, on the other end, youknow there's a lot of people
that understand the trauma spaceand they focus a lot on the
kids, but nobody talks aboutyour own health, yeah.
And so there was just a littlebit of hole.
And I was already trainingfoster parents.
(15:34):
I do that pre-service trainingthat you talked about in that
COVID time was crazy, but I'mlike we train parents in this
but we're not equipping them inhow to care for themselves
throughout this process, and soI love that you saw the same
thing kind of in that sleepspace and it's like, well, I can
meet this need, I can do this,and we need people to do that.
(15:56):
We need people to step intothese spaces and see those holes
and to figure out, like, whatcan I?
I can't solve all the problems,but what can I solve?
And I know for me working withparents in the health and
wellness space, we talk a lotabout parents sleep.
Right, it is so crucial thatparents get rest, but the
problem is is, if the kidsaren't sleeping, the parents
(16:19):
can't sleep.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
It's the darn kids sleep.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It's the darn kids, I know, I know.
Well, I mean and, and so itbecomes this thing to where you
have to have all of the piecestogether to be able to walk
through it.
Well, why do our kids seem tostruggle so much with sleep?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I think it's a couple of things.
Number one, I think it is um,it is so layered right.
I think a lot of the kids thatare in our homes through foster
care and adoption have historiesfull of a loss of control.
They had a moment in their lifewhether it was removal from
their parents, whether it wasabandonment, whether it was
(17:01):
separation at birth from theirprimary caregiver, whatever it
was.
They have moments in their lifethat were a complete and total
loss of control, and that's alsowhat sleep is.
When you sleep, you close youreyes and you have to blindly
trust and surrender everythingand everyone around you.
(17:21):
Right, it is a complete andtotal loss of control.
And so a lot of kids that I workwith, especially, that have
extreme hypervigilance andthings like that at night, which
was my son, like his antennaswere just just all the time when
are you?
Where are you going?
What's that move?
You know you?
You you adjust your legs rightand he's like what are you doing
(17:41):
?
You know they were just on allthe time.
And so, for kids that are onall the time, we are asking them
at night to do the thing thatis the complete opposite of what
their body is telling them todo, which is completely
surrender, control.
It is also a separation.
Sleep is a separation, nomatter if they are down the hall
(18:04):
or across the room, it is stilla separation from their
caregiver.
And so a lot of the kids that Isee whose parents are like well
, they fight sleep really hard.
I don't always agree with that.
I think a lot of times they arenot actually fighting the act
of falling asleep.
They're tired, they'reexhausted, and I saw this with
(18:24):
my own.
He was exhausted, we were allexhausted, but he couldn't let
himself, let go, and so it wasthe act of separation.
And especially when you havethose insecure attachments that
have that white knuckle grip ontheir parents, you know, coupled
with that hypervigilance ofwhere are you, what are you
(18:46):
doing, where are you going.
Sleep, being a separation,itself is hard, and so you put
that surrender, you put thatseparation, not even addressing
the physiological need, right,but you put those things
together and it can be a recipefor some really, really
(19:06):
difficult things, because thoseare two of the hardest things
for a lot of kids in this space,which is because they seek to
control out of fear.
Right, fear is the drivingfeeling behind needing to
control.
So they need to control all ofthese things and we're asking
them to let go and they can't,and they just can't do it.
(19:26):
Their bodies will not let them.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, it is so hard my kids.
So I adopted a sibling group offive from foster care and we
had a lot of trouble with sleep,especially in the early early
years, and my younger kids weretwo, three and four when we got
them and they would not.
They would go to sleep at nightbut they would not stay asleep
(19:52):
because everybody went to sleepat the same time and so they
felt safer, like closing theireyes.
But people would get up atdifferent times in the morning,
they would wake up at differenttimes and they didn't like the
idea of somebody else beingawake and them not being awake
and knowing what was going on.
(20:13):
And so they would try to battleeach other to see who would get
up first.
They would try to beat eachother and be the first one up.
Well, we got to where everybodyis getting up at 2 o'clock in
the morning and I'm like no, no,no.
Like this, isn't it this?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
isn't it.
You've won, you've won.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Go back to bed, right , right, so we, you know,
eventually we we set and youknow I don't know anything about
sleep, I haven't done enoughresearch in this area but we
ended up setting a wake up timefor everybody, yeah, and we just
said everybody is going to getup at this time, and so then
(20:53):
they slept because they weren'tworried about anybody else being
up earlier in the morning.
But that hypervigilance, like Ihave to know what's going on.
I don't feel safe if things aregoing on around me and I'm not
awake or aware of it.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Exactly.
Well, and that can also playinto sleep associations, right?
Because a lot of parents, youknow, unintentionally think,
okay, my kid's feeling nervousand afraid at night and so the
best thing I could do is justlay with them and hold them
until they fall asleep and thenleave.
But if you think about thatfrom the child's perspective,
they fell asleep in that stateof being held and next to you
(21:33):
and then, because of the way wecycle through sleep cycles up
and down all night, when theywake up later and you're not
there anymore, it actuallytriggers their trauma and it has
triggered that feeling of, ohmy God, where did you go?
And so that was one of thethings that a therapist actually
walked me through with my ownson.
Because I was doing that, Ithought the best thing I could
(21:55):
do is just be with him until hefalls asleep.
And what she had to help meunderstand was even though that
was super well-intentioned whatI was actually doing was
creating more anxiety, becauseif I wasn't going to stay with
him all night, it wasn't reallyserving him to be there when he
fell asleep, because later on hewould wake up and I was gone,
(22:18):
he was in the dark, his parenthad left him.
He didn't know where I was andit was like trigger, trigger,
trigger.
So of course, he was waking upwith these like anxiety attacks
in the middle of the nightbecause, even with the best
intent, I was re-exposing him toall of the scariest things that
he knew.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
What are some ways that leaning into traditional
sleep methods can be harmful forkids, Like why is it so
important that we understand thetrauma part when we're looking
at sleep?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yeah, it's interesting, I actually had
somebody ask me this the otherday, like why should we not let
a kid who has been in fostercare cry it out, like why should
we not do that?
And you know, my gut instinctis to just say like well, duh,
of course you don't do that.
Instinct is to just say likewell, duh, of course you don't
(23:13):
do that.
But the reality is that I think, you know, you have to remember
that the body keeps the scoreright.
And so when we really have toconsider the kid's past right,
we really have to consider theirhistory.
And so if you have a child whohas a history of, you know,
let's say, neglect or somethinglike that, really being mindful
(23:35):
of, okay, number one, you know,we obviously don't want to
expose them to any sort of deepre-expose them to any level of
the trauma that they've walkedthrough, level of the trauma
that they've walked through.
But number two, I think whenyou have a child who has
experienced some of those aces,right, those traumas, those you
(23:56):
know, abuse, neglect,abandonment, things like that I
think you have to remember thattheir threshold, their tolerance
is not the same.
Their brain has truly beenchanged and so, whereas you
might be able to push a, youknow, a child who has not had
the same life experiences alittle bit, that is going to
(24:20):
have a different response.
And so you know, most of what Ido with these families
specifically is very, veryscaffolded.
It is a different approach, isvery, very scaffolded.
It is a different approach.
It is very much scaffoldedbecause what matters more than
this child independentlysleeping is their felt safety.
That is the heart of everything, because that's what we signed
(24:44):
up for.
We signed up to be that haven,that anchor, that safe place for
these kids, and that doesn'tcome naturally to them.
Life has taught them mistrustand so when we are talking about
working on something likeindependent sleep, it is not
(25:04):
always going to be a situationwhere you know you say, god, you
just got to rip the bandaid offand let them cry, like that's
not appropriate for a child whohas been in this, in this place.
Um, because what we signed upfor was to help heal right, to
(25:24):
help be a part of their healingand and Anytime you know that's
not to say you know you can'tever let a child protest Like,
of course you can, but it justit looks different here and
their history is going to beabsolutely foundational to
understanding, so you cannavigate it appropriately to
(25:55):
this we had.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Our first placement was a four-year-old and a
two-month-old and thefour-year-old slept but the
two-month-old did not sleep yet.
But even as he started to getolder he still wasn't sleeping.
And I remember going to one ofmy friends and she gives me this
traditional sleep book and Iwas like, oh okay, like I did,
it didn't.
I didn't.
I knew a little bit abouttrauma.
(26:16):
I wasn't super trauma informedat that stage, but I didn't put
the pieces together that this isnot you, you can't just.
But it didn't work like thesame.
You know, the things thatworked for other parents didn't
work for us.
It actually made it worse.
And you know, one of the thingsin all areas of child
development I think it's reallyimportant for us as parents to
(26:38):
think through is our kids arecoming to us and a lot of times
developmentally they are youngerthan their chronological age
and so, looking at their braindevelopment more like a newborn
and it is not appropriate to leta newborn baby cry it out Like
that's not appropriate, and weall know that that's not
appropriate.
(26:59):
We know that we are going toattune to that baby's needs
immediately when they're thatstage, but I think, because we
see an older child in theirphysical body, that can be
harder to translate.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yes, yes.
And I think too, you have toremember that the infant
attachment cycle is based onresponsiveness and attunement.
And so when you have a childcome into your home whose brain
did not receive attuned,responsive care in the beginning
, they're coming to you alreadyhaving experienced mistrust.
(27:34):
And already having experiencedI cry.
No one comes.
What does that mean for me?
Right, so you know, I rememberthere was a family I was working
with and they had a sweetlittle girl who had had a pretty
significant amount of neglectand the first time they
(27:54):
celebrated, the first time sheactually signaled in the middle
of the night that she neededthem because her experience had
told her it's not worth cryingbecause no one's coming.
And so it is.
It's such that dance of youknow looking at responsive
parenting as an opportunity, andthen you know kind of tying
(28:16):
that in with what we know aboutsleep science.
And you know, when appropriate,healthy, loving, safe
boundaries.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yes, yeah, because that attachment is the most
important thing that we can dofor our kids.
Teaching our kids to have adifferent worldview, teaching,
you know, helping form, shapetheir brains to have a worldview
that people can be trusted, theworld can be safe and they can
thrive and not live in survival,is the way that our kids get to
grow up to be healthy adults,exactly.
(28:49):
And so you know, really makingthat on the forefront, which I
think is amazing that you aretaking that attachment principle
and bringing it into this sleepspace, okay so, but if I'm a
parent, right, I'm listening toyou and I'm saying, okay,
attachment is the most importantthing, and meeting their needs
(29:09):
over and over again, even in themiddle of the night, is the
most important thing.
But how do we all get somesleep?
But also I'm tired, but also Ican't function at this pace.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yes, exactly.
So I think you know, wheneverI'm working with a family, the
first thing I'm going to do isI'm going to ask a lot of
questions and, you know, I thinkparents can do some
self-reflection as well.
I think we can look at routines, right.
Do we have a consistent,needs-based bedtime routine, or
(29:43):
is it?
Is it a drop zone, or is it a?
Oh, it's eight o'clock time togo to bed, drop you in your crib
and walk away?
How are we preparing ourchildren's brains and bodies for
sleep?
Right?
What are what are we doing?
How are we meeting theirsensory needs at bedtime?
Are we meeting theirphysiological needs at bedtime?
Are we connecting with thembefore we try to separate?
(30:06):
Um, how, how are we looking atour routines and really being
honest Cause some of us are likeI put them in front of the TV
and then, when the show's done,I tuck them in bed and walk away
.
Like, let's be real, likethat's hard for a kid We've just
exposed them to all sorts ofstimulation and then we expect
them to just shut down.
Maybe we need to soften thattransition a little bit.
(30:27):
They probably need a little bitmore from us, and so a lot of
the work that I do on the frontend is getting really proactive,
instead of dealing with all thequote unquote bad behaviors on
the back end of things.
Saying, okay behavior is asignal that there's an unmet
need, right.
So if we have a kid who isasking for more connection, who
is banging their head againstthe wall because they need more
(30:50):
sensory input if they are,whatever it is that they're
doing that we are trying to dealwith the quote unquote bad
behavior maybe we need to lookat that and say, hey, okay, they
need more connection from us.
What if we sat with them for 10minutes and we did 10 minutes
of child led play as part of ourbedtime routine?
What if we gave them somesensory input and we did some
(31:11):
blanket burrito rolls?
Right?
What if we met their needsphysiologically right?
What if we added a bedtimesnack?
What if we, you know and reallykind of get on offense, right?
I mean, so many of us are justreacting to the difficult
behaviors all the time, butwe're not really working to
prevent them.
So what if we could do that?
(31:32):
So what if we can work on that?
I think the other really bigthing that is really
underutilized is understandingsleep pressure and sleep
pressure is schedule and timingand understanding that your
child needs to be tired enoughto go to sleep at night tired
(31:53):
enough to go to sleep at night.
I cannot tell you the number ofthree to four to five-year-old
parents that I have who say theytake a three-hour nap every
afternoon, from one to four, andthen they won't go to sleep for
two hours at a seven o'clockbedtime.
And I go.
That's not their fault.
You are not respecting theirphysiology.
It's not that they're being bad.
They're not tired because, foryour own sanity, you're letting
(32:18):
them take this marathon napmidday and that's cutting into
their night's sleep.
And so you've got a kid who'sbehaving badly at bedtime and
won't stay in their bed and isdefiant, but it's because
they're not tired.
Their tank is still full.
So, understanding sleeppressure and really working on
(32:39):
timing things appropriately toget your kid tired enough for
bedtime, without kind of fallingoff that cliff into the point
of no return, the dark zone.
Right, we're tired yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, we've all been there.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
So really kind of doing some experimentation,
finding the sweet spot for themwhere they're going to go to
sleep and sleep well.
And then the other thing I do alot of work with parents is
sleep associations, right, andso understanding sleep
associations is huge.
It is literally the light bulbfor so many families when they
(33:15):
really look at, okay, how doesmy child fall asleep?
What are the conditions aroundmy child at the moment that they
fall asleep?
Is there music on that turnsoff later?
Am I in the room?
Am I touching them?
Am I rocking them and thenlaying down?
And then I'm having to comeback later, right, because how a
child falls asleep is how theywill return to sleep at sleep
(33:40):
cycle transitions.
So understanding that is reallya huge light bulb because if
you really get honest, right, ifthey're falling asleep on a
video and they're watching TV tofall asleep and then at two
o'clock in the morning you'reupset that they want more TV,
well, that's a sleep association, that's the only way they know
(34:01):
to fall asleep.
So they've woken up a few hourslater in a sleep cycle
transition and it's the onlything they know.
It would be like us fallingasleep on a pillow Someone takes
it away.
A couple hours later, we rollover, it's not there.
We can't go back to sleep untilour pillow's back, right, right
, and it's the same thing forour kids.
So, really, looking at what, howare they falling asleep and how
(34:24):
can I create conditions atbedtime that are as close to the
same as the way they're goingto be the rest of the night?
How can I really work on thosesleep associations that are
going to be unchanging and stayconsistent from bedtime to
morning?
Because, especially withhypervigilance, they know
(34:45):
everything.
So even little things likeparents will say they have
lullabies on when they fallasleep, but they go off after an
hour and I'll say leave them onall night, because your kid is
going to wake up and know thatthey went off and going to want
to turn them back on, and it'syet another reason to wake up.
And then, once they're up,they're going to stay up and
it's a whole thing.
So, really, looking at, ok, inthe moment of sleep onset, right
(35:13):
, when they're falling asleep,how can I create consistency for
them?
Because it is those changes weknow right, that loss of control
that triggers a lot of thatfear and anxiety for kids.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
That's really good.
I would have never thought ofthat right, that if you start
something, you know that to keepit going, so that if they wake
up they're they're put back tosleep with that same thing.
Yeah, but I think that that isreally really a really good tip
for parents to consider asthey're looking to solve some of
(35:47):
those those sleep problems.
Yeah, how much time do yourecommend that kids sleep?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
That is a really good question.
So, generally speaking, I mean,it's it's very much going to be
age dependent, um, but you know, for kids, you know, under five
, I generally recommend at least10 hours overnight, um.
Now, with that said, you know,sleep needs are primarily
genetic, um, and it's a bellcurve, right, there are averages
(36:18):
and there are outliers, forsure.
But you know, generallyspeaking, there's nothing.
A lot of a lot of parents arelike well, I thought they were
supposed to sleep seven to seven, like, doesn't everybody sleep
seven to seven?
Doesn't every baby, doesn'tevery toddler, doesn't every
preschooler?
No, there's nothing magic about.
And then they get frustratedand they call me because their
kid sleeps from eight to six.
(36:39):
And you know they thinksomething's wrong.
There's nothing wrong.
That's your kid's sleep needs.
And you know, the other piece ofthat is really looking at total
sleep in 24 hours, right?
So a kid that sleeps seven toseven may only take a 30 minute
nap, but your kid takes a threehour nap, and so they're going
(36:59):
to sleep less overnight, right?
If you, you know, cause there'sa bigger chunk of their sleep
happening during the day.
So you know, there's a.
There is a big range youngchildren under the age of five.
A red flag for me is if they'regoing less than 10 hours at
night.
That's kind of my my baselinefor looking at that.
(37:19):
That's a sign to me thatsomething needs tweaking right.
Something needs to be fixedthere.
They are chronically sleepdeprived, and chronic sleep
deprivation just magnifiesbehaviors.
Mental health Um, it justmagnifies everything.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
And everybody in them and in us and in their parents,
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
So when people start getting good sleep, it truly
changes their life.
People ask me all the time I'mso passionate about kids' sleep.
I'm not.
I'm passionate about, like,seeing families choose
connection, because it's reallyhard to choose connection with a
kid who kept you up every hourof the night before because you
wake up in the morning and youdidn't have time to miss them
(38:03):
and you know.
So you're sort of like oh, youagain, um, as opposed to like
I'm so excited to see you, youknow, um.
So it truly does transformrelationships when, when
everybody's getting healthysleep.
Um, teenagers are probably themost chronically sleep deprived
population that I see, partlydue to devices, and a lot of
(38:26):
parents, especially fosterparents, I think have a really
difficult time implementingboundaries with devices because
it is the teen's personalproperty.
So it's that slippery slope ofhow do I come in and implement
some loving boundaries forsafety without, you know,
(38:47):
feeling like I'm takingsomething that doesn't belong to
me, right, yeah, so that's areally tricky thing.
But because of late nightdevices, because of circadian
rhythm issues and because ofjust overscheduling, there are
so many kids and families thatare so dramatically
overscheduled.
They're up early, they're uplate and they're not performing
(39:09):
well anywhere because they're sosleep deprived.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Yeah, I really do think that it changes the whole
family dynamic Like that onepiece is so crucial and
everybody thriving.
I know there was a season whereone of my kids I mean I think
she went like three days withoutsleeping at all, yeah, and and
I mean I was afraid she wasgoing to have like a psychotic
(39:37):
break, you know, because becauseshe went so long without any
kind of sleep and I was afraid Iwas going to have a break in
that.
But well, I mean thankfully,like I have a spouse that we
could trade off.
I mean it was like a newborn,you know what I'm saying, where
(39:58):
we could trade off a little bit.
But I do think it changes thefamily dynamic and I think for
teens it can change the dynamicsof their day and how they
perform in school and how theyperform and all the other things
that they do, their ability tolearn and grow right like as
healthy adults, their ability tolearn and grow right Like as
(40:18):
healthy adults.
And I think for all of ourfamilies, I think this one piece
is just crucial for success,for connection, for everybody
thriving and loving one another.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Well, yeah, it just strengthens everything.
And you know, I've had familiescome to me after the fact and
be like, now that we're actuallysleeping, we want to have more
kids, and you know I meanthere's all sorts.
You know we actually opened ourhouse back up again because we
finally were sleeping and wefelt like we could, we could
foster again or you knowwhatever.
(40:49):
And that's that's the stuffthat just just thrills me, like
I, you know, just to see therelationship strengthened by by
everybody just operating attheir best, and and that's the
piece I think that was missingfor me.
Personally, in my own family Iwent through major post-adoption
depression at the point wherewe were really really sleep
(41:09):
deprived with our son and it,you know, it was really really
difficult, and so workingthrough his issues changed our
relationship, and so I love whenI get to see that magic happen
with my clients.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
That's awesome.
Well, how can people find you,how can they work with you if
they're having problems withsleep or they want to make sure
that they're not having problemswith sleep?
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Dwell Pediatric, um, myconsulting name, um, so I am
dwell pediatric sleep on all thesocials except Tik TOK.
I don't have a Tik TOK cause itgot weird for a minute and I
just decided I didn't want to bethere, so I am sleep on
Facebook.
Instagram is my favorite placeto hang out.
(41:54):
My website isdwellpediatricsleepcom and if
people are looking for just a,they don't necessarily have like
a one-on-one need.
They don't need a one-on-oneconsultation, they don't need
any sort of support, but theyjust sort of want to either
prepare to take fosterplacements or, you know, they
kind of just want some healthyprinciples.
(42:16):
I have an online course.
It is a trauma-informed,healthy sleep foundations course
.
It's about two hours where Iwalk you through what I call
Sleep 101, where we dive intosleep science, we walk through
the intersection of trauma andsleep and then we actually walk
through three different kiddos'case studies and the changes
that we made and theimprovements that it made for
(42:37):
them.
So it's a fantastic resource.
It is deeply discounted rightnow for summer, um, and so that
is available on my online shop,on my website, which is a great.
It's a great place to start, um, if you're sort of starting to
feel like I don't know that I'mready to actually need the
one-on-one support, but I justkind of want to do a check-in.
(43:00):
That's a great place and forpeople anticipating placements
it's a great thing to go through.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
That sounds amazing, and I will put the links for all
of those things in the shownotes so that people can find
them easily, because I do thinkthis you are making an impact,
allison, like you are impactingfamilies and this can change.
I mean, this can change thedynamic for a family completely.
(43:28):
And so I appreciate you and allthe work that you're doing and
I appreciate you coming on todayand kind of sharing some tips
with us as well.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you so much for yoursweet words and for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
I told you guys this was gonna be good.
I hope this conversation withAllison gave you some practical
tools, but even more than that,I hope that it reminded you that
you are not alone.
The struggle around sleep isreal, especially when you're
parenting kids with traumahistories.
You're not crazy.
The struggle around sleep isreal, especially when you're
parenting kids with traumahistories.
You're not crazy, you're notfailing, you're just doing
really, really hard, holy work.
(44:03):
If today's episode spoke to you, would you do me a favor?
Screenshot it, share it to yourstories on Instagram, tag me,
tag Allison, let us know whatlanded with you.
It's the best way to spreadthis message and to build up
this little community of parentswho are fighting the good fight
together.
And if you haven't yet, goahead and subscribe to the
(44:26):
podcast so you don't miss futureepisodes.
We've got some incredibleguests lined up and I cannot
wait to keep walking this roadwith you.
All right, let's end our timetogether, the way that I love to
, with a moment of prayer.
Jesus, thank you for everysingle person listening today.
Thank you for their hearts,their homes and their obedience,
(44:48):
even when it's messy, even whenit's exhausting.
Lord, you see the tired eyes,the late nights, the middle of
the night, meltdowns.
You see every tear, everywhispered prayer.
Lord, I ask that you bringsupernatural rest, not just to
our kids, but to our souls asparents.
(45:10):
Be our peace, be our anchor andremind us that you are always
in the room, even in the chaosof bedtime, even in the chaos of
bedtime, even in the middle ofthe night.
Strengthen us as parents today.
Remind us that we are not doingthis alone, that you walk this
road with us.
Jesus, we love you and we trustyou.
(45:31):
It's in your name we pray Amen.
In your name, we pray amen.
Welcome to the Foster Parent Well podcast, where we
have real candid, faith-filledconversations about all things
foster care, adoption and trauma.
I'm your host, nicole T Barlow.
I'm a certified parent trainer,a certified health coach and an
adoptive parent myself.
This is a space where you canfind support so that you can
care for your kids with asteadfast faith, endurance and
(00:32):
joy.
I want you to foster parentwell, so let's jump in.
Welcome back to the podcast.
(00:56):
Everybody, my name is NicoleBarlow and I am your host for
today.
I'm so glad you're here.
I'm coming to you today withjust a hint of a scratchy voice,
so if it sounds like I've beenyelling at my kids or singing a
little too hard at church, don'tworry, it's just a little bug
that I picked up.
So I appreciate your grace andunderstanding.
(01:17):
Today, speaking of church andworship and just all the things,
I just got back from the FilledTogether conference hosted by
Jamie Finn and Jason Johnson andy'all.
It was so good, like one ofthose this is holy ground kind
of weekends.
It was a conference just formarried couples in foster care
(01:37):
and adoption and not only did Iget to teach a breakout session,
which I loved, but my husbandgot to come with me, and we got
to attend the conferencetogether as well, which, let's
be honest, is a miracle initself that we were both able to
go.
I mean, it's not every day thatwe get to sneak away together
and actually do something thatfills us up.
(01:58):
It was such a gift to sitshoulder to shoulder with other
couples who are walking the sameroad, folks that are facing the
same joys and the same supernot fun super hard stuff too.
And the worship you guys gosh,just watching a room full of
weary parents, arms raised,hearts open, still choosing
(02:23):
Jesus right in the middle of themess.
You guys, that is the kind ofstuff that stays with you.
It was so powerful andbeautiful and, honestly, it's
exactly what I needed and,honestly, it's what our
relationship needed in thisseason as well.
All right, deep breath.
Let's get into today's episode,because I'm so excited about
(02:45):
this one.
Today, I'm talking with thebrilliant and lovely Allison
Ezell, and we're diving into atopic that every one of us has
probably Googled at 2 am at somepoint, talking about sleep.
Allison is a certifiedpediatric sleep consultant and a
mom of four from Dallas, texas.
She welcomed a son home fromChina with her husband in 2016
(03:09):
and then fostered her youngestchild prior to adoption in 2023.
With a special passion forhelping foster and adoptive
families navigate sleep issues,allison brings a unique angle to
her work, as she's able tobring in the trauma-informed
perspective to a field where ithas long been desperately needed
(03:31):
.
In 2021, she founded DwellPediatric Sleep and since then,
she has served thousands ofsleep-deprived families through
consultations, digital resourcesand corporate speaking.
Consultations, digitalresources and corporate speaking
.
Whether you're parenting kidsfrom hard places or you're right
in the middle of a bedtime, youknow messy bedtime routine that
(03:52):
you're trying to clean up, oryou're just trying to figure out
why your teenager turns into araccoon after 10 pm.
We all know that sleep is a bigdeal, and it's not just for
kids, right?
I mean, I need my kids to getsleep so I can get sleep.
But what happens when traumashows up at bedtime, or when
attachment issues look like atoddler who can't sleep unless
(04:15):
they're physically glued to yourbody?
Or when you're trying toimplement some rhythm and
routine but you're also tryingnot to trigger dysregulation?
We are going to go there.
Into all those spaces, allisonbrings so much wisdom, grace and
practical help and you're notgoing to want to miss a minute
of this conversation, so let'sjump in.
(04:36):
Welcome, allison, to thepodcast.
We're excited to have you ontoday, so why don't you
introduce yourself and tell us alittle bit about how you got
into foster care and adoption?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
First of all, thank you so muchfor having me.
It's such a gift to get to behere with you guys and I just I
love what you're doing with thispodcast.
So, first of all, thank you forhaving me.
So I grew up in a family whereadoption was kind of all over
the place and my grandmother andher brother were actually
(05:08):
adopted from foster careliterally like 100 years ago, in
the 20s, in the 1920s, wow.
So I grew up knowing a littlebit about foster care and
adoption and I ended up marryinga man whose father was adopted.
So we kind of came intomarriage thinking adoption very
well, could be part of ourfamily story and the way we
(05:29):
build our family.
We ended up having twobiological kids in the first
three years of marriage and sowe thought, okay, well, maybe
not, maybe we're good.
And it kind of became one ofthose things that everywhere we
kept looking, we kept seeingsigns and we just kept feeling
led, um, down this direction.
(05:51):
So, um it, we started kind ofdoing some research and, you
know, thinking and kind ofpraying about it and just kind
of saying, okay, we're justgoing to kind of walk this path
and if it's not something we'resupposed to do, I feel like the
door will close, right.
Yeah, we sort of took theapproach like it's a yes until
it's a no, so we startedresearching different types of
(06:13):
adoption.
We ended up choosinginternational adoption for our
first adoption and we adoptedour son, brooks, from China in
2016.
He came home at a year old he'snow nine and while we were over
there, we had just a wildexperience going to the
orphanage where he was stayingand I will say it was more of
(06:36):
like a group foster home.
It was very, very small.
It was nothing like the onesthat you see in those
documentaries, with rows afterrows after rows of cribs, and he
very much had a mama, and so itjust gave me such just a
profound respect for fosterfamilies and what they do loving
kids, whether or not they'regoing to be permanent members of
(06:58):
the family or not, and so itkind of became something that
was kind of in the back of ourminds, something we considered
and, um, he came home and thenwe had a whole host of health
and sleep and a medical issuesthat will, I'm sure, get to Um,
but we were in the trenches forseveral years, um, when he for
(07:21):
adjusting to life with threekids um, they were three kids
under six and so I was very busy, and you know, getting him
acclimated and all those things.
And then COVID actually hit andwe joke that our last, our last
child was our COVID baby.
He was born in March 2020.
(07:43):
And that is when we reallystarted to be pushed towards
foster care and we really justwere just sort of burdened by
like, okay, we're all home andwe're so grateful to have a
place that is safe and healthyand all of that for our kids.
But we just kind of felt thisoverwhelming burden for, like,
(08:04):
but what about the kids thataren't?
What about the kids where homeisn't always the safest place or
they don't have the stabilityand the permanency that our kids
do?
And it was something, again,that had been kind of in the
back of our minds for years andwe just sort of felt like we
were in a stable place, we hadroom in our home, we had room in
our home, we had room in ourfamily, and so we got licensed
(08:27):
during COVID to foster.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Wow, that's an interesting process, it was wild
.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
It was wild.
Everything was done online,which, having three kids already
at home, was actually reallyhelpful.
All the trainings were doneover Zoom, so we started getting
licensed in the summer of 2020.
And it took gosh, maybe ninemonths or so to get.
By the time we went througheverything we had to do,
(08:55):
obviously, cpr and stuff, inperson, but most of it was done
online and so we were licensedand open in April of 2021.
And our son was our third phonecall in two weeks.
I mean, the need was so high.
He was our third phone call intwo weeks and he joined us in
(09:16):
May, early May.
And you know, we weren'tlicensed to adopt.
That was absolutely not ourpurpose, not why we went to this
.
We truly just wanted to be abridge, just to be a temporary
kind of safe spot for a kid toland until they.
You know we're going to move on, um, but as, as you know, as
the plans go, he joined us andnever left and he's still here
(09:40):
and went to kindergarten today.
So so he just startedkindergarten.
So, but yeah, so lots ofdifferent twists and turns and
family history and whatnot, butI do.
I do think meeting my son fromChina's foster mom.
(10:01):
Just it changed my life.
It literally changed my lifeand just gave me such a heart
for the sacrifice um that fosterfamilies are willing to make um
to love without the, withoutany guarantees, without any
guarantees of permanency, withit's.
Just the sacrificial love thatshe had for him just changed my
life and I'm so grateful that,you know, meeting her eventually
(10:25):
led us to our third son andthat we are now part of this
incredible community.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I love how God kind ofweaves all of those pieces right
, like everything you do leadsto how he wants to use you and
your purpose and stuff.
So I just love how he kind ofinterweaves all of that stuff
together.
So you talked a little bitabout when y'all came home from
China.
You kind of dug into somethings and got your hands dirty,
(10:55):
you know when we're talkingabout trauma and stuff.
But specifically on sleep,right, and that has become your
focus.
So how did you come to focus onspecifically on sleep?
Because that's not your focus.
So how did you come to focusspecifically on sleep?
Because that's not youreducational background, correct?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
No, it's not so I have a master's in education.
I was a classroom teacher earlychildhood and I actually taught
all the way through eighthgrade.
Early childhood through eighthgrade.
It was a swing, but it's a bigrange.
But no, I have an educationbackground and um have always
loved child development andthose types of things.
(11:29):
But that was originally kind ofwhere I landed.
I love to teach, I love toconnect with parents, I love to
support and all of those typesof things.
And we came home from China withBrooks and he was two different
people.
There was daytime Brooks, hewas happy-go-lucky, he was, I
(11:51):
mean, attaching beautifully, hewas fun, he was, you know.
And then something happened atnight and he became a different
little boy and his trauma justwas all over night he was
nighttime grieving.
He was awake in panic every twoor three hours all night long.
(12:13):
And so I really went back to mytraining and I thought, okay,
they've talked a lot aboutbehaviors, they've talked a lot
about attachment, they've talkeda lot about, you know, food and
food insecurity and things likethat and navigating that.
But where's the information onsleep?
And so I went back and I saidthere's not any.
There's really not any in yourtraining.
(12:33):
And so I thought, okay, so theydidn't train anybody for this.
Now we're in the midst of sleepstruggles, which is so
incredibly common with fosterand adoptive families, and I
don't know where to go.
So it really was born out of ahole in the space.
Nobody talks about it,everybody's struggling, nobody
(12:58):
knows what they're doing,everybody's throwing spaghetti
at the wall and hoping it sticksand we're all just surviving.
And I thought this isn't okay.
Somebody needs to step intothis space, really do the work
to understand the science ofsleep, understand the science of
trauma, and build a bridge andhelp parents navigate through a
(13:23):
trauma-informed lens sleepissues.
And so I was talking to myhusband about it one day and he
was like I was like I reallywish there was somebody who
could do this.
And he looked at me and he goeswell, you seem pretty
passionate about it.
How about you figure it out?
You figure it out.
And so I um, I got certified asa pediatric sleep consultant in
(13:46):
20, in 2021, literally twomonths after our son joined us.
I started, uh, my coursework.
So I took 200 hours, uh, reallygeeked out on sleep science.
Um, and I've done someadditional trauma training.
Um, I've done some thingsthrough, uh, tbri, karen Purvis,
those types of things, and soit's truly been just, you know,
(14:11):
just a leap of faith of steppinginto a space and saying, man, I
see the need, why not me?
And just watching it blow upjust watching it blow up.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
I love that.
I love that and I mean I cansee how God can use your
education background right, yourability to teach and to
transfer information to otherpeople, your background in child
development and how that playsinto everything your history,
personal history with it andyour history with trauma and
trauma training just kind ofpulling all of those pieces
together for this one thing andI think that's amazing.
(14:53):
I kind of did the same thing,so I train, I work with parents
in the health and wellness space, kind of helping with their own
health and wellness, but in atrauma-informed way, because I
think there's so muchinformation out there for people
that don't experience the samethings that we experience every
(15:13):
day that don't have the sameamount of stress and trauma on
their bodies.
And then, on the other end, youknow there's a lot of people
that understand the trauma spaceand they focus a lot on the
kids, but nobody talks aboutyour own health, yeah.
And so there was just a littlebit of hole.
And I was already trainingfoster parents.
(15:34):
I do that pre-service trainingthat you talked about in that
COVID time was crazy, but I'mlike we train parents in this
but we're not equipping them inhow to care for themselves
throughout this process, and soI love that you saw the same
thing kind of in that sleepspace and it's like, well, I can
meet this need, I can do this,and we need people to do that.
(15:56):
We need people to step intothese spaces and see those holes
and to figure out, like, whatcan I?
I can't solve all the problems,but what can I solve?
And I know for me working withparents in the health and
wellness space, we talk a lotabout parents sleep.
Right, it is so crucial thatparents get rest, but the
problem is is, if the kidsaren't sleeping, the parents
(16:19):
can't sleep.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
It's the darn kids sleep.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It's the darn kids, I know, I know.
Well, I mean and, and so itbecomes this thing to where you
have to have all of the piecestogether to be able to walk
through it.
Well, why do our kids seem tostruggle so much with sleep?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
I think it's a couple of things.
Number one, I think it is um,it is so layered right.
I think a lot of the kids thatare in our homes through foster
care and adoption have historiesfull of a loss of control.
They had a moment in their lifewhether it was removal from
their parents, whether it wasabandonment, whether it was
(17:01):
separation at birth from theirprimary caregiver, whatever it
was.
They have moments in their lifethat were a complete and total
loss of control, and that's alsowhat sleep is.
When you sleep, you close youreyes and you have to blindly
trust and surrender everythingand everyone around you.
(17:21):
Right, it is a complete andtotal loss of control.
And so a lot of kids that I workwith, especially, that have
extreme hypervigilance andthings like that at night, which
was my son, like his antennaswere just just all the time when
are you?
Where are you going?
What's that move?
You know you?
You you adjust your legs rightand he's like what are you doing
(17:41):
?
You know they were just on allthe time.
And so, for kids that are onall the time, we are asking them
at night to do the thing thatis the complete opposite of what
their body is telling them todo, which is completely
surrender, control.
It is also a separation.
Sleep is a separation, nomatter if they are down the hall
(18:04):
or across the room, it is stilla separation from their
caregiver.
And so a lot of the kids that Isee whose parents are like well
, they fight sleep really hard.
I don't always agree with that.
I think a lot of times they arenot actually fighting the act
of falling asleep.
They're tired, they'reexhausted, and I saw this with
(18:24):
my own.
He was exhausted, we were allexhausted, but he couldn't let
himself, let go, and so it wasthe act of separation.
And especially when you havethose insecure attachments that
have that white knuckle grip ontheir parents, you know, coupled
with that hypervigilance ofwhere are you, what are you
(18:46):
doing, where are you going.
Sleep, being a separation,itself is hard, and so you put
that surrender, you put thatseparation, not even addressing
the physiological need, right,but you put those things
together and it can be a recipefor some really, really
(19:06):
difficult things, because thoseare two of the hardest things
for a lot of kids in this space,which is because they seek to
control out of fear.
Right, fear is the drivingfeeling behind needing to
control.
So they need to control all ofthese things and we're asking
them to let go and they can't,and they just can't do it.
(19:26):
Their bodies will not let them.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, it is so hard my kids.
So I adopted a sibling group offive from foster care and we
had a lot of trouble with sleep,especially in the early early
years, and my younger kids weretwo, three and four when we got
them and they would not.
They would go to sleep at nightbut they would not stay asleep
(19:52):
because everybody went to sleepat the same time and so they
felt safer, like closing theireyes.
But people would get up atdifferent times in the morning,
they would wake up at differenttimes and they didn't like the
idea of somebody else beingawake and them not being awake
and knowing what was going on.
(20:13):
And so they would try to battleeach other to see who would get
up first.
They would try to beat eachother and be the first one up.
Well, we got to where everybodyis getting up at 2 o'clock in
the morning and I'm like no, no,no.
Like this, isn't it this?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
isn't it.
You've won, you've won.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Go back to bed, right , right, so we, you know,
eventually we we set and youknow I don't know anything about
sleep, I haven't done enoughresearch in this area but we
ended up setting a wake up timefor everybody, yeah, and we just
said everybody is going to getup at this time, and so then
(20:53):
they slept because they weren'tworried about anybody else being
up earlier in the morning.
But that hypervigilance, like Ihave to know what's going on.
I don't feel safe if things aregoing on around me and I'm not
awake or aware of it.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Exactly.
Well, and that can also playinto sleep associations, right?
Because a lot of parents, youknow, unintentionally think,
okay, my kid's feeling nervousand afraid at night and so the
best thing I could do is justlay with them and hold them
until they fall asleep and thenleave.
But if you think about thatfrom the child's perspective,
they fell asleep in that stateof being held and next to you
(21:33):
and then, because of the way wecycle through sleep cycles up
and down all night, when theywake up later and you're not
there anymore, it actuallytriggers their trauma and it has
triggered that feeling of, ohmy God, where did you go?
And so that was one of thethings that a therapist actually
walked me through with my ownson.
Because I was doing that, Ithought the best thing I could
(21:55):
do is just be with him until hefalls asleep.
And what she had to help meunderstand was even though that
was super well-intentioned whatI was actually doing was
creating more anxiety, becauseif I wasn't going to stay with
him all night, it wasn't reallyserving him to be there when he
fell asleep, because later on hewould wake up and I was gone,
(22:18):
he was in the dark, his parenthad left him.
He didn't know where I was andit was like trigger, trigger,
trigger.
So of course, he was waking upwith these like anxiety attacks
in the middle of the nightbecause, even with the best
intent, I was re-exposing him toall of the scariest things that
he knew.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
What are some ways that leaning into traditional
sleep methods can be harmful forkids, Like why is it so
important that we understand thetrauma part when we're looking
at sleep?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Yeah, it's interesting, I actually had
somebody ask me this the otherday, like why should we not let
a kid who has been in fostercare cry it out, like why should
we not do that?
And you know, my gut instinctis to just say like well, duh,
of course you don't do that.
Instinct is to just say likewell, duh, of course you don't
(23:13):
do that.
But the reality is that I think, you know, you have to remember
that the body keeps the scoreright.
And so when we really have toconsider the kid's past right,
we really have to consider theirhistory.
And so if you have a child whohas a history of, you know,
let's say, neglect or somethinglike that, really being mindful
(23:35):
of, okay, number one, you know,we obviously don't want to
expose them to any sort of deepre-expose them to any level of
the trauma that they've walkedthrough, level of the trauma
that they've walked through.
But number two, I think whenyou have a child who has
experienced some of those aces,right, those traumas, those you
(23:56):
know, abuse, neglect,abandonment, things like that I
think you have to remember thattheir threshold, their tolerance
is not the same.
Their brain has truly beenchanged and so, whereas you
might be able to push a, youknow, a child who has not had
the same life experiences alittle bit, that is going to
(24:20):
have a different response.
And so you know, most of what Ido with these families
specifically is very, veryscaffolded.
It is a different approach, isvery, very scaffolded.
It is a different approach.
It is very much scaffoldedbecause what matters more than
this child independentlysleeping is their felt safety.
That is the heart of everything, because that's what we signed
(24:44):
up for.
We signed up to be that haven,that anchor, that safe place for
these kids, and that doesn'tcome naturally to them.
Life has taught them mistrustand so when we are talking about
working on something likeindependent sleep, it is not
(25:04):
always going to be a situationwhere you know you say, god, you
just got to rip the bandaid offand let them cry, like that's
not appropriate for a child whohas been in this, in this place.
Um, because what we signed upfor was to help heal right, to
(25:24):
help be a part of their healingand and Anytime you know that's
not to say you know you can'tever let a child protest Like,
of course you can, but it justit looks different here and
their history is going to beabsolutely foundational to
understanding, so you cannavigate it appropriately to
(25:55):
this we had.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Our first placement was a four-year-old and a
two-month-old and thefour-year-old slept but the
two-month-old did not sleep yet.
But even as he started to getolder he still wasn't sleeping.
And I remember going to one ofmy friends and she gives me this
traditional sleep book and Iwas like, oh okay, like I did,
it didn't.
I didn't.
I knew a little bit abouttrauma.
(26:16):
I wasn't super trauma informedat that stage, but I didn't put
the pieces together that this isnot you, you can't just.
But it didn't work like thesame.
You know, the things thatworked for other parents didn't
work for us.
It actually made it worse.
And you know, one of the thingsin all areas of child
development I think it's reallyimportant for us as parents to
(26:38):
think through is our kids arecoming to us and a lot of times
developmentally they are youngerthan their chronological age
and so, looking at their braindevelopment more like a newborn
and it is not appropriate to leta newborn baby cry it out Like
that's not appropriate, and weall know that that's not
appropriate.
(26:59):
We know that we are going toattune to that baby's needs
immediately when they're thatstage, but I think, because we
see an older child in theirphysical body, that can be
harder to translate.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yes, yes.
And I think too, you have toremember that the infant
attachment cycle is based onresponsiveness and attunement.
And so when you have a childcome into your home whose brain
did not receive attuned,responsive care in the beginning
, they're coming to you alreadyhaving experienced mistrust.
(27:34):
And already having experiencedI cry.
No one comes.
What does that mean for me?
Right, so you know, I rememberthere was a family I was working
with and they had a sweetlittle girl who had had a pretty
significant amount of neglectand the first time they
(27:54):
celebrated, the first time sheactually signaled in the middle
of the night that she neededthem because her experience had
told her it's not worth cryingbecause no one's coming.
And so it is.
It's such that dance of youknow looking at responsive
parenting as an opportunity, andthen you know kind of tying
(28:16):
that in with what we know aboutsleep science.
And you know, when appropriate,healthy, loving, safe
boundaries.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yes, yeah, because that attachment is the most
important thing that we can dofor our kids.
Teaching our kids to have adifferent worldview, teaching,
you know, helping form, shapetheir brains to have a worldview
that people can be trusted, theworld can be safe and they can
thrive and not live in survival,is the way that our kids get to
grow up to be healthy adults,exactly.
(28:49):
And so you know, really makingthat on the forefront, which I
think is amazing that you aretaking that attachment principle
and bringing it into this sleepspace, okay so, but if I'm a
parent, right, I'm listening toyou and I'm saying, okay,
attachment is the most importantthing, and meeting their needs
(29:09):
over and over again, even in themiddle of the night, is the
most important thing.
But how do we all get somesleep?
But also I'm tired, but also Ican't function at this pace.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yes, exactly.
So I think you know, wheneverI'm working with a family, the
first thing I'm going to do isI'm going to ask a lot of
questions and, you know, I thinkparents can do some
self-reflection as well.
I think we can look at routines, right.
Do we have a consistent,needs-based bedtime routine, or
(29:43):
is it?
Is it a drop zone, or is it a?
Oh, it's eight o'clock time togo to bed, drop you in your crib
and walk away?
How are we preparing ourchildren's brains and bodies for
sleep?
Right?
What are what are we doing?
How are we meeting theirsensory needs at bedtime?
Are we meeting theirphysiological needs at bedtime?
Are we connecting with thembefore we try to separate?
(30:06):
Um, how, how are we looking atour routines and really being
honest Cause some of us are likeI put them in front of the TV
and then, when the show's done,I tuck them in bed and walk away
.
Like, let's be real, likethat's hard for a kid We've just
exposed them to all sorts ofstimulation and then we expect
them to just shut down.
Maybe we need to soften thattransition a little bit.
(30:27):
They probably need a little bitmore from us, and so a lot of
the work that I do on the frontend is getting really proactive,
instead of dealing with all thequote unquote bad behaviors on
the back end of things.
Saying, okay behavior is asignal that there's an unmet
need, right.
So if we have a kid who isasking for more connection, who
is banging their head againstthe wall because they need more
(30:50):
sensory input if they are,whatever it is that they're
doing that we are trying to dealwith the quote unquote bad
behavior maybe we need to lookat that and say, hey, okay, they
need more connection from us.
What if we sat with them for 10minutes and we did 10 minutes
of child led play as part of ourbedtime routine?
What if we gave them somesensory input and we did some
(31:11):
blanket burrito rolls?
Right?
What if we met their needsphysiologically right?
What if we added a bedtimesnack?
What if we, you know and reallykind of get on offense, right?
I mean, so many of us are justreacting to the difficult
behaviors all the time, butwe're not really working to
prevent them.
So what if we could do that?
(31:32):
So what if we can work on that?
I think the other really bigthing that is really
underutilized is understandingsleep pressure and sleep
pressure is schedule and timingand understanding that your
child needs to be tired enoughto go to sleep at night tired
(31:53):
enough to go to sleep at night.
I cannot tell you the number ofthree to four to five-year-old
parents that I have who say theytake a three-hour nap every
afternoon, from one to four, andthen they won't go to sleep for
two hours at a seven o'clockbedtime.
And I go.
That's not their fault.
You are not respecting theirphysiology.
It's not that they're being bad.
They're not tired because, foryour own sanity, you're letting
(32:18):
them take this marathon napmidday and that's cutting into
their night's sleep.
And so you've got a kid who'sbehaving badly at bedtime and
won't stay in their bed and isdefiant, but it's because
they're not tired.
Their tank is still full.
So, understanding sleeppressure and really working on
(32:39):
timing things appropriately toget your kid tired enough for
bedtime, without kind of fallingoff that cliff into the point
of no return, the dark zone.
Right, we're tired yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah, we've all been there.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
So really kind of doing some experimentation,
finding the sweet spot for themwhere they're going to go to
sleep and sleep well.
And then the other thing I do alot of work with parents is
sleep associations, right, andso understanding sleep
associations is huge.
It is literally the light bulbfor so many families when they
(33:15):
really look at, okay, how doesmy child fall asleep?
What are the conditions aroundmy child at the moment that they
fall asleep?
Is there music on that turnsoff later?
Am I in the room?
Am I touching them?
Am I rocking them and thenlaying down?
And then I'm having to comeback later, right, because how a
child falls asleep is how theywill return to sleep at sleep
(33:40):
cycle transitions.
So understanding that is reallya huge light bulb because if
you really get honest, right, ifthey're falling asleep on a
video and they're watching TV tofall asleep and then at two
o'clock in the morning you'reupset that they want more TV,
well, that's a sleep association, that's the only way they know
(34:01):
to fall asleep.
So they've woken up a few hourslater in a sleep cycle
transition and it's the onlything they know.
It would be like us fallingasleep on a pillow Someone takes
it away.
A couple hours later, we rollover, it's not there.
We can't go back to sleep untilour pillow's back, right, right
, and it's the same thing forour kids.
So, really, looking at what, howare they falling asleep and how
(34:24):
can I create conditions atbedtime that are as close to the
same as the way they're goingto be the rest of the night?
How can I really work on thosesleep associations that are
going to be unchanging and stayconsistent from bedtime to
morning?
Because, especially withhypervigilance, they know
(34:45):
everything.
So even little things likeparents will say they have
lullabies on when they fallasleep, but they go off after an
hour and I'll say leave them onall night, because your kid is
going to wake up and know thatthey went off and going to want
to turn them back on, and it'syet another reason to wake up.
And then, once they're up,they're going to stay up and
it's a whole thing.
So, really, looking at, ok, inthe moment of sleep onset, right
(35:13):
, when they're falling asleep,how can I create consistency for
them?
Because it is those changes weknow right, that loss of control
that triggers a lot of thatfear and anxiety for kids.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
That's really good.
I would have never thought ofthat right, that if you start
something, you know that to keepit going, so that if they wake
up they're they're put back tosleep with that same thing.
Yeah, but I think that that isreally really a really good tip
for parents to consider asthey're looking to solve some of
(35:47):
those those sleep problems.
Yeah, how much time do yourecommend that kids sleep?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
That is a really good question.
So, generally speaking, I mean,it's it's very much going to be
age dependent, um, but you know, for kids, you know, under five
, I generally recommend at least10 hours overnight, um.
Now, with that said, you know,sleep needs are primarily
genetic, um, and it's a bellcurve, right, there are averages
(36:18):
and there are outliers, forsure.
But you know, generallyspeaking, there's nothing.
A lot of a lot of parents arelike well, I thought they were
supposed to sleep seven to seven, like, doesn't everybody sleep
seven to seven?
Doesn't every baby, doesn'tevery toddler, doesn't every
preschooler?
No, there's nothing magic about.
And then they get frustratedand they call me because their
kid sleeps from eight to six.
(36:39):
And you know they thinksomething's wrong.
There's nothing wrong.
That's your kid's sleep needs.
And you know, the other piece ofthat is really looking at total
sleep in 24 hours, right?
So a kid that sleeps seven toseven may only take a 30 minute
nap, but your kid takes a threehour nap, and so they're going
(36:59):
to sleep less overnight, right?
If you, you know, cause there'sa bigger chunk of their sleep
happening during the day.
So you know, there's a.
There is a big range youngchildren under the age of five.
A red flag for me is if they'regoing less than 10 hours at
night.
That's kind of my my baselinefor looking at that.
(37:19):
That's a sign to me thatsomething needs tweaking right.
Something needs to be fixedthere.
They are chronically sleepdeprived, and chronic sleep
deprivation just magnifiesbehaviors.
Mental health Um, it justmagnifies everything.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
And everybody in them and in us and in their parents,
exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
So when people start getting good sleep, it truly
changes their life.
People ask me all the time I'mso passionate about kids' sleep.
I'm not.
I'm passionate about, like,seeing families choose
connection, because it's reallyhard to choose connection with a
kid who kept you up every hourof the night before because you
wake up in the morning and youdidn't have time to miss them
(38:03):
and you know.
So you're sort of like oh, youagain, um, as opposed to like
I'm so excited to see you, youknow, um.
So it truly does transformrelationships when, when
everybody's getting healthysleep.
Um, teenagers are probably themost chronically sleep deprived
population that I see, partlydue to devices, and a lot of
(38:26):
parents, especially fosterparents, I think have a really
difficult time implementingboundaries with devices because
it is the teen's personalproperty.
So it's that slippery slope ofhow do I come in and implement
some loving boundaries forsafety without, you know,
(38:47):
feeling like I'm takingsomething that doesn't belong to
me, right, yeah, so that's areally tricky thing.
But because of late nightdevices, because of circadian
rhythm issues and because ofjust overscheduling, there are
so many kids and families thatare so dramatically
overscheduled.
They're up early, they're uplate and they're not performing
(39:09):
well anywhere because they're sosleep deprived.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Yeah, I really do think that it changes the whole
family dynamic Like that onepiece is so crucial and
everybody thriving.
I know there was a season whereone of my kids I mean I think
she went like three days withoutsleeping at all, yeah, and and
I mean I was afraid she wasgoing to have like a psychotic
(39:37):
break, you know, because becauseshe went so long without any
kind of sleep and I was afraid Iwas going to have a break in
that.
But well, I mean thankfully,like I have a spouse that we
could trade off.
I mean it was like a newborn,you know what I'm saying, where
(39:58):
we could trade off a little bit.
But I do think it changes thefamily dynamic and I think for
teens it can change the dynamicsof their day and how they
perform in school and how theyperform and all the other things
that they do, their ability tolearn and grow right like as
healthy adults, their ability tolearn and grow right Like as
(40:18):
healthy adults.
And I think for all of ourfamilies, I think this one piece
is just crucial for success,for connection, for everybody
thriving and loving one another.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Well, yeah, it just strengthens everything.
And you know, I've had familiescome to me after the fact and
be like, now that we're actuallysleeping, we want to have more
kids, and you know I meanthere's all sorts.
You know we actually opened ourhouse back up again because we
finally were sleeping and wefelt like we could, we could
foster again or you knowwhatever.
(40:49):
And that's that's the stuffthat just just thrills me, like
I, you know, just to see therelationship strengthened by by
everybody just operating attheir best, and and that's the
piece I think that was missingfor me.
Personally, in my own family Iwent through major post-adoption
depression at the point wherewe were really really sleep
(41:09):
deprived with our son and it,you know, it was really really
difficult, and so workingthrough his issues changed our
relationship, and so I love whenI get to see that magic happen
with my clients.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
That's awesome.
Well, how can people find you,how can they work with you if
they're having problems withsleep or they want to make sure
that they're not having problemswith sleep?
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Dwell Pediatric, um, myconsulting name, um, so I am
dwell pediatric sleep on all thesocials except Tik TOK.
I don't have a Tik TOK cause itgot weird for a minute and I
just decided I didn't want to bethere, so I am sleep on
Facebook.
Instagram is my favorite placeto hang out.
(41:54):
My website isdwellpediatricsleepcom and if
people are looking for just a,they don't necessarily have like
a one-on-one need.
They don't need a one-on-oneconsultation, they don't need
any sort of support, but theyjust sort of want to either
prepare to take fosterplacements or, you know, they
kind of just want some healthyprinciples.
(42:16):
I have an online course.
It is a trauma-informed,healthy sleep foundations course
.
It's about two hours where Iwalk you through what I call
Sleep 101, where we dive intosleep science, we walk through
the intersection of trauma andsleep and then we actually walk
through three different kiddos'case studies and the changes
that we made and theimprovements that it made for
(42:37):
them.
So it's a fantastic resource.
It is deeply discounted rightnow for summer, um, and so that
is available on my online shop,on my website, which is a great.
It's a great place to start, um, if you're sort of starting to
feel like I don't know that I'mready to actually need the
one-on-one support, but I justkind of want to do a check-in.
(43:00):
That's a great place and forpeople anticipating placements
it's a great thing to go through.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
That sounds amazing, and I will put the links for all
of those things in the shownotes so that people can find
them easily, because I do thinkthis you are making an impact,
allison, like you are impactingfamilies and this can change.
I mean, this can change thedynamic for a family completely.
(43:28):
And so I appreciate you and allthe work that you're doing and
I appreciate you coming on todayand kind of sharing some tips
with us as well.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Absolutely Well.
Thank you so much for yoursweet words and for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
I told you guys this was gonna be good.
I hope this conversation withAllison gave you some practical
tools, but even more than that,I hope that it reminded you that
you are not alone.
The struggle around sleep isreal, especially when you're
parenting kids with traumahistories.
You're not crazy.
The struggle around sleep isreal, especially when you're
parenting kids with traumahistories.
You're not crazy, you're notfailing, you're just doing
really, really hard, holy work.
(44:03):
If today's episode spoke to you, would you do me a favor?
Screenshot it, share it to yourstories on Instagram, tag me,
tag Allison, let us know whatlanded with you.
It's the best way to spreadthis message and to build up
this little community of parentswho are fighting the good fight
together.
And if you haven't yet, goahead and subscribe to the
(44:26):
podcast so you don't miss futureepisodes.
We've got some incredibleguests lined up and I cannot
wait to keep walking this roadwith you.
All right, let's end our timetogether, the way that I love to
, with a moment of prayer.
Jesus, thank you for everysingle person listening today.
Thank you for their hearts,their homes and their obedience,
(44:48):
even when it's messy, even whenit's exhausting.
Lord, you see the tired eyes,the late nights, the middle of
the night, meltdowns.
You see every tear, everywhispered prayer.
Lord, I ask that you bringsupernatural rest, not just to
our kids, but to our souls asparents.
(45:10):
Be our peace, be our anchor andremind us that you are always
in the room, even in the chaosof bedtime, even in the chaos of
bedtime, even in the middle ofthe night.
Strengthen us as parents today.
Remind us that we are not doingthis alone, that you walk this
road with us.
Jesus, we love you and we trustyou.
(45:31):
It's in your name we pray Amen.
In your name, we pray amen.
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