February 26, 2025 • 65 mins
We explore the complexities of foster care and adoption and the emotional toll trauma takes on families, emphasizing the importance of candid conversations about these challenges. Anna Bernacki shares her personal journey through adoption and how faith has guided her family.
• The importance of discussing difficult topics within foster care
• Differences between crisis hospitalization and residential treatment
• Navigating shame and guilt in parenting from hard places
• The role of faith in coping with challenges
• How to support other family members when one child is absent
• Encouragement for parents feeling overwhelmed or isolated
If you know somebody that is facing similar challenges, would you send them this episode?
I'd love to hear from you! Send me a text!
Connect with me on Instagram: @Fosterparentwell
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Website: https://nicoletbarlow.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome to the Foster Parent Well podcast, where we
have real candid, faith-filledconversations about all things
foster care, adoption and trauma.
I'm your host, nicole T Barlow.
I'm a certified parent trainer,a certified health coach and an
adoptive parent myself.
This is a space where you canfind support so that you can
care for your kids with asteadfast faith, endurance and
(00:42):
joy.
I want you to foster parentwell.
My name is Nicole T Barlow andI am your host.
Well, today, you guys, we have alittle bit of a longer podcast
(01:04):
for you and I got to be honest,I'm a little nervous about this
one.
I open up in this podcasttelling a part of our foster
care and adoption story that wehave not really told publicly
yet.
I mean, our community, thepeople that are in our lives in
real life, know this part of ourstory, but I have not shared
(01:28):
this on the podcast before.
But I do think some of theseharder conversations, digging
into some of these harder topics, are so important.
But I would ask you this Iwould ask that you give us grace
.
We are trying to navigate thesereally difficult and hard
(01:49):
conversations with grace, butthere may be times where we say
something or where somethingcomes out in a way that is
received differently than wemean it.
That is received differentlythan we mean it, and so I want
to preface this podcast by justsaying you know, I think as
(02:20):
adoptive parents, we love ourkids.
We would lay down our lives,honor our kids and their stories
.
But also, if we are not sayingthe hard things, if we're not
talking about the realchallenges of foster care, of
adoption, of trauma and theeffects of trauma, then we're
(02:41):
doing a disservice to everybody.
We're alienating foster parents, adoptive parents that are
going through some of thesebigger challenges, because, you
guys, this is stuff that nobodyis really talking about.
So my guest today is AnnaBernacki.
She's a wife and a mom to fourchildren who were adopted
(03:04):
through foster care, and as anadoptee herself, anna's life has
been shaped by the profoundthemes of identity, belonging
and unconditional love.
She brings a deeply personalperspective to her work as an
educator for foster and adoptivefamilies, especially those
navigating the complexities ofspecial needs parenting.
(03:26):
As a mother of two children whohave required placement in
residential treatment facilities, anna knows the heartbreak and
perseverance it takes to lovefrom a distance.
She has walked the difficultpath of advocating for her
children's safety and healing,while striving to maintain
connection and fosterrestoration within her family.
(03:47):
In the midst of thesechallenges, anna has leaned on
her faith, finding strength inGod's promises and hope in His
ability to bring beauty frombrokenness.
And that's what we're going tobe talking to Anna about.
Today is when you have kids thatneed to live outside of the
home, that need need to liveoutside of the home, that need
to be placed outside of the home, whether for a short season or
(04:10):
for a longer season.
How do we navigate thosechallenges?
So let's jump right in.
Well, welcome Anna to the show.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday and I've really been
looking forward to thisconversation because I think
that what we're going to discusstoday can really be impactful
(04:32):
for so many people.
So, as we get started, tell mea little bit about your story
and how you got into foster carein the adoption world.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
So I actually am adopted myself, so adoption has
was more normal than anythingelse to me.
Um, I all my siblings areadopted as well.
None of us are biologicallyrelated, so having a family that
was not biologically related toeach other was my normal.
Um, something I always searchedfor, always wanted, was that
(05:04):
biological connection.
It defines a lot of mychildhood.
Honestly, I really just wouldlay in bed and dream about it.
I wanted that so badly and so,as after getting married and
thinking about family, I wantedbiological children more than
anything else in the world.
And then God said nope, that'snot my plan for your life.
(05:27):
So we ended up kind of exploringdifferent adoption avenues and
really landed back with thereare children who need homes.
Right now, we have extrabedrooms in our home, let's fill
them.
Bedrooms in our home let's fillthem.
(05:48):
And we really wanted to dosibling groups.
So that's what we did.
We started fostering and weended up adopting our first two
placements after 18 months.
So it was super fast case.
We did not expect that at all.
We thought we'd foster and havekind of a revolving door for a
while, but that did not happenat all.
And then we got two youngerchildren and we have now.
(06:11):
That was a much longer case,but we have now adopted them as
well.
So we have four adoptedchildren through the foster care
system.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Oh, wow, that's, that's awesome.
Well, what was your viewgrowing up, you know, being
adopted Like what was your viewof adoption?
I know you said you kind ofalways dreamed of your
biological that side of yourfamily, but did you have a good
experience being adopted?
Did you have a negativeexperience?
(06:38):
I know everybody's experiencesvary so much.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Somebody's experiences vary so much.
Yeah, I think I never knew anyother adoptees when I was
younger.
So I, you know, as a child, youbelieve the narrative that
you're given right, it'sbeautiful, god created you to be
in our family.
Um, you were born for us, youknow kind of that narrative and
(07:03):
it never felt quite right.
But also I didn't know anythingelse.
I had nothing else to compareit to, so I had a lot of longing
.
It was a completely closedadoption, like I wasn't able to
even know my biological parents'names until after I was 18.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
And even then it was really hard to find.
So I mean now with the internetit's a lot easier and that was
pretty common.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
That was pretty common back then that things
were done that way, right it was.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, it was very common.
But I think it added an elementthat a lot of people today may
not understand, becauseadoptions are typically more
open, or at least you know whothe parents are.
There's more information givennow.
So that was definitely astruggle.
Growing up, there was thatinternal struggle of like I
(07:54):
should feel fine here.
I was told I had no traumabecause I was straight Well, I
wasn't straight from thehospital.
I was taken straight from thehospital and then I was in
foster care for a very shorttime before placed in my
adoptive family.
So I don't know, I just neverthought of myself as having
trauma.
I've lived this beautiful lifeand I really did.
I was very privileged.
(08:15):
I had a wonderful childhoodgrowing up and then as an adult
and going through the adoptionprocess with my own kids and
watching them grieve becausethey knew their parents and
watching them grieve, I was like, oh, this is what I missed out
on.
This is those same feelings Ihad.
(08:37):
I just didn't have a connect, aparent, to connect that to.
So it was kind of this mysteryfeeling of why am I grieving
people I don't even know?
I don't even know their name,and so then I was able to kind
of connect the dots and realize,and then I started grieving all
over.
I didn't really grieve myadoption and process all of that
until I was an adult andwalking my own kids through it.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Wow, that's amazing how, how watching their
experience kind of gives contextto what you were feeling and
I'm sure you were able to bemuch more empathetic to them in
their grief, since you I meanyou were processing in real time
your own stuff, exactly.
Yeah, well, how has traumaimpacted your kids and your
(09:24):
family now, like as an adult,and I mean you've you talked
about how that has kind ofstirred things up in you, but
what have you seen as theimpacts of of trauma on your
family?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I mean the impacts of trauma on our family are
tremendous.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I know like what area doesn't it touch right Right,
right.
Yeah, it is tremendous.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I know like what area , doesn't it touch Right Right?
Yeah, it is tremendous, and Ithink you know there's a broad
spectrum.
Um, each one of our childrenhas their own struggles and I
don't think I mean, we have manydiagnoses in between all the
kids.
It's not.
We certainly do not have atypical family.
I don't even know what thatlooks like, I have no context
(10:05):
for what that is, yeah, but eachone has really struggled in
their own way.
So our two oldest kids wereadopted at well, they came to us
at six and 10 and then wereadopted at eight and 11.
I think, just the way theirbirthdays fall, so it was eight
and 11,.
I think just the way theirbirthdays fall, so it was eight
(10:26):
and 11.
Um, and because they were olderand experienced so much more
trauma in the home, like theirstory is still unfolding, we
still find new things out Um,and it was truly a horrific.
I mean, you look at asix-year-old.
I have another six-year-old nowand I look at her and I'm like
(10:48):
the stuff that that child wentthrough before coming to our
home is so unreal andunbelievable.
It's a world that so manypeople cannot even comprehend,
(11:10):
even comprehend, and so I thinkkind of seeing their struggles
in a different way.
Now.
Our younger two had a lot ofprenatal trauma, so that comes
out in a different way.
Yes, we got them straight fromthe hospital.
That does not spare them fromtrauma, it does not.
So it's been very, verydifferent.
Our older kids have definitelystruggled with more mental
illness because of how thetrauma has affected their brain.
(11:37):
It's not the same brain as ahealthy, typical child, so that
has been really hard.
Our oldest daughter, when shewas, I want to say I think she
was 14.
She had some bullying at schoolthat we did not know about.
She's very quiet and doesn'treally share a lot.
(11:57):
So when we finally found outwhat was happening, she was
already really really strugglingwith wanting to still be alive
and be with us.
She had no self-worth, did notthink that she had any reason to
still be here.
So we ended up in the hospitalpretty rapidly two times in a
(12:21):
row and it was recommended to usthat she go to a residential
treatment facility.
So she went to a 90 day programin and out Absolutely
incredible.
She's thriving ever since,really found herself worth, not
to say she doesn't have hermoments.
She doesn't ever struggle, shecertainly does, but she is doing
(12:43):
so incredible.
She did the work.
It's been amazing.
So that was just kind of ourhappily ever after story with
that.
And then we had our seconddaughter, who we knew when she
walked in that door at six yearsold.
That child was something else.
She was.
(13:05):
We were not naive to what wewere getting ourselves into and
many people said you're reallygoing to adopt her?
Yeah, we are, because we wereher fifth home in six months.
Wow, and it just I mean I'lllet you put the puzzle pieces
together on that one as to why.
(13:26):
So it was very challenging, butat the time we didn't have other
children in the home.
We didn't have we had thecapacity to handle it and as a
six-year-old it's much moremanageable because they're
little and you can handle it.
So after she was adopted, thereseemed to be this huge lull in
(13:48):
all of the behaviors.
It really gave her.
It seemed to give her thesecurity she needed.
She knew she wasn't goinganywhere, she was with us
forever.
This was her home.
It really gave her thatsecurity for a while Honestly a
couple of years and theneverything exploded again.
I think she was 12.
Everything exploded again andit's been a nonstop cycle since
(14:13):
then, it's been very, verydifficult.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Anna, do you think that?
And I ask this question becausethis is part of what we have
seen both in our own home and inother people that are facing
similar journeys?
We also have a child that livesin residential and has gone
(14:36):
through the hospital cycles, andone of the things that I
noticed is there is a hugeuptake at puberty.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yes, when puberty hits it's like the trauma
accelerates times 30.
Yes, and it just becomes reallyhard for our kids 100%.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yes, I would love to do research on that.
I'm sure they're out theresomewhere, but it's definitely
is it has to be a thing it is.
Well, I mean, I I'm currentlywatching some other families
that have had kids that havebeen adopted and in their homes
for years, and now that they'reentering puberty it's a whole
different shift.
So we may have some listenersthat don't understand the world
(15:33):
of hospitalizations andresidential and all of that kind
of stuff.
So will you explain twodifferent things to me the
difference between a crisishospitalization, stabilization
kind of thing and residential.
What does that mean?
What are the differences andwhat types of behaviors lead
(15:53):
kids to like?
What would lead you to say, hey, I think this child needs a
little more care?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Sure.
So, starting withhospitalization, it definitely
would be those, like you said,crisis in the home where it's
usually more of an isolatedincident, where you're having,
whether it's suicidal ideation,whether it's a plan, whether
it's self-harming, basically, orthoughts of injuring or hurting
(16:25):
other people in the home.
It's usually those things wherein this moment, right now, I
cannot, I can no longer keepthis child safe.
So then you have to call Umsometimes.
Now with my oldest daughter,she came to us and we figured it
out and I was able to take herinto the hospital and went
(16:47):
through the evaluation processwith her.
With my younger one, it wasmore of that crisis.
We had to call 911 and had tohave help come into the home.
So it really kind of theprocess is very different
between those two.
Even Like that.
Those are two even different,whole different worlds.
So once you end up in that ER,all bets are off.
(17:09):
You are out of control, thingsjust happen and then they
usually, if it's, they'll do anevaluation on them If they
determine that they need to bestabilized, maybe, maybe they
haven't been taking theirmedication, they need to get
back on it, adjust medication,are not on medication at all,
(17:31):
but just really need someintensive therapies, then they
will go ahead and hospitalize.
Usually that's the max I'veseen it is two weeks, so usually
like a week to two weeks.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah, I think the max we've seen is like 10 days,
that kind of two week, two weeksetting.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, and usually by then you know the child has
stabilized, you've been able towork on some things between home
and the child.
Were there miscommunicationthings?
Were there behaviors betweenboth, you know, between parents
and child.
That needed to be addressed wassomething that the parent was
doing, triggering something fromthe past, and that was the
(18:12):
reaction and behavior.
You know there's a lot of um,there's a lot of factors that go
into that, so you can, um,adjust and kind of get out of
that cycle and thehospitalization will break the
cycle and you're good to go andthat's all you need.
But then there are other timeswhere that is a repeated cycle
(18:36):
and it's happening way toofrequently, way too often, way
too often, and it's just thatthat hospitalization is no
longer working.
Um, our case was really uniquein that we had so, from the
first call, a police officeractually came into our home who
(18:58):
was clearly not trauma informed.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
It's the worst we have had it.
We had a police officer come inand say I will take off my belt
right now and give it to yourmom and I'm like what oh, we had
the opposite.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Oh, we had the opposite.
This police officer filed areport against us to dcfs
because they assumed that nochild would want to end their
life or hurt themselves unlessthey were being abused in the
home.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So while he witnessed absolutely nothing, he could
not grasp that a child, thatthere wasn't another factor.
So he reported us and we had togo through a full investigation
.
But what ended up happening inthat investigation, which is
wild to me, is that they endedup determining it was unfounded
(19:53):
against us as parents, but theyended up determining that the
child was a danger to our home.
Yeah, so they forced us toresidential treatment.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Which we it was very much on our radar.
We were in the process.
Actually, we had alreadyapplied, we were in the process
of finding a place.
We were in the process.
Actually, we had alreadyapplied.
We were in the process offinding a place.
We were already there, yeah,but it sped it up and so it was
very odd circumstances how thathappened, yeah, and then they
kind of threatened us that if wedid not follow through with it
(20:24):
then we would lose all of ourkids.
So, yeah, scary, very, veryscary it really is.
So that was very oddcircumstances, but again, it was
already on our radar.
We were not naive to the factthat we were heading that
direction.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, yeah, we are our experience.
So we did one kind of crisisthing pretty early on after
adoption.
We are the same.
We kind of knew that this childhad a lot of diagnoses.
We didn't know all of them, butyou know, we knew that there
were a lot of diagnoses and thatthis was going to be not an
(21:08):
easy road for her just long term.
But we didn't see any kind ofthe behaviors on the front end
that we saw post-adoption.
Post-adoption adoption was verytriggering for her Interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, one of her other siblings.
So we adopted a sibling groupof five.
One of her other siblings wasjust the opposite, had a really
hard time before adoption, andadoption settled everything for
(21:55):
her, that kind of set things inmotion, and so she went to the
hospital.
Probably the first time shewent to the hospital was
probably a week after adoption,and then we had, we had a period
of time where we kind ofstabilized her.
Everything was fine.
But then we got started on thehospital cycles pretty rapidly
(22:18):
and what we found I think forkids that have attachment
struggles specifically issometimes that hospital provides
a little bit of an attachmentreprieve.
Yes, so they have noaccountability, they have no
relationships they have.
(22:39):
They're not vulnerable, youknow, like they are when they're
in close relationship withpeople.
And so that became somethingthat she actually was actively
working towards was getting tothe hospital on a regular basis,
because she liked that it gaveher body a little reprieve from
(23:02):
those close relationships thather brain was saying, hey, this
isn't safe, this isn't safe, youknow people aren't safe.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We noticed that too.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And I think that's so common where they start this
cycle.
I always tell parents that cometo me that have you know that
are starting to see some ofthese bigger behaviors.
Hold off as long as you can onhospital stays and not to say
that you don't have to go thatroute, because sometimes you do
(23:34):
have to go that route.
It is needed, it is necessary.
But if you have a child thatstruggles with attachment and
has diagnoses around attachment,that hospital stay can actually
make things worse, not better.
I have seen it in kids thatdon't have the same level of
(23:56):
attachment struggles.
I have seen it do great thingsright and really give them a
chance to get their medicationin order and to stabilize them.
But I think it's a differentstory sometimes for kids that
have a higher level ofattachment struggle.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, 100%.
I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Well, when you have a child that's in out-of-home
placement, I think I felt somuch shame in the beginning that
my child couldn't be at homeand we were kind of the same way
.
We got to a place where it wasvery unsafe for our other kids
(24:43):
and it was being bumped upagainst that.
You know, we might face somedifferent things if anything
happened in the home, because weknew there were struggles and
we and so anyway, that's part ofthe reason we sought out longer
term care the way that we did.
(25:04):
But I think people have thisidea that placing them somewhere
else, either for a couple ofmonths and in our area I don't
know about you, anna, but in ourarea most residential
facilities will keep a childthree to six months at a time
because that's all insurancewill take care of, take care of.
(25:25):
But I think I thought, if Iplace them outside of the home,
then that I haven't done enough,I haven't been able to stick it
out, I haven't been able tolove this child enough to help
them heal, right.
So I want you to talk aboutthat a little bit.
(25:48):
But then I think the other ideais that once they're placed
somewhere else, that we don'thave a role to play, and I think
that's very wrong too.
I think we can still remainvery, very active, very present
in in their journey and theirhealing and all of their stuff
as they go along.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, so as the shame , oh, my goodness, the shame.
Yes, it is so real and I think,well, mental health as a whole
has such a stigma to it, whichit shouldn't, but it does in our
society.
So we're already have thatissue and that that we're
(26:30):
battling.
But then there's also the selftoo.
As mothers, our job, like atthe core of who we are as a
mother, is to love and protectyour children, and nowhere in
any of the books do they say youmay not be the one to do that.
(26:52):
Yeah, right, like it's allabout.
They need to be with the motherand you need to nurture and
love and give of yourself andall of these things.
And then you realize, wait, I'mnot enough, I can't do this,
and that is a horrible feeling,it is absolutely horrible and I
(27:13):
really, really struggled withthat.
I was just so devastated withmyself, like there were layers
to the grief, when my daughterleft.
I was devastated with myselfthat I wasn't capable of being
the mother she needed me to be,which we'll circle back to that.
(27:33):
But then also, she's not in thehome room floor and the clothes
in the laundry, and there'sjust so much the pictures that
pop up on your phone.
(27:54):
There's so many things thatjust snap you back to reality,
like, oh my goodness, she's nothere.
The empty seat at the dinnertable, it was absolutely
horrific.
And then you have your otherchildren grieving her loss and
they're coming to you crying Imiss her.
I miss her when is she cominghome?
And you have to say I don'tknow, and it's going to be a
long time.
And so there's so many layersto the guilt.
(28:16):
You feel guilty that you'reputting this harm on your
children and that you can'tfunction and you're sad and you
weren't enough.
And so that was a huge processfor me.
And I will say this, and I amprobably going to say this about
10 more times while we'retalking moms need to be in
therapy.
If you are parenting kids fromhard places whether they're in
(28:40):
residential or not, it doesn'tmatter If you are parenting a
child from a hard place, youneed to be in therapy.
And this is a hill I will dieon, because, as moms, we do give
and we always say well, thattakes away resources from the
family.
It takes time.
I don't have time.
The reality is you have an hour.
You have an hour a week.
You can find an hour you can,you can figure out somewhere in
(29:03):
the budget to get that copay orwhatever.
And because it is so importantand it has allowed me to have
the capacity to be a good motherand to be the mother that my
other children need.
It is not taking away, it isadding to my family.
Yeah, that's just another sidenote.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Well, I do want to say, though, while you're
talking about that, though, itis very, very important that
your therapist is traumainformed, so that you are
getting feedback thatunderstands the complexity of
what your situation is, becausea therapist that doesn't
understand that is going to makethings worse.
Shame wise for you, very true,and how they're directing you to
(29:47):
handle things.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yes, that is very true, and I'm spoiled because
I've been with my therapist forthree years now and I love her
and she knows every aspect of mylife.
But she truly walked me throughthe grief.
She had been with me throughthe past several years,
obviously, and building up tothis, she told me that we needed
to do residential, long beforeI considered it and I was like
(30:12):
no, you don't understand.
You don't understand, I couldnever do that.
I'm not doing that to my child,I'm going to maintain a
connection.
And she really sat there andwas like no, and it was after my
daughter left and, processingthrough all this, I was actually
diagnosed with PTSD from whathad happened in the home and
(30:32):
that was the biggest light bulbfor me going Whoa, it was bad.
Yeah, it that was.
It was real, I wasn'texaggerating, I wasn't making
(30:56):
this up and it it was very real.
And so therapy is just soimportant because you have to be
able to process these thingsWell and to have an outside
perspective, just to go no, thisis what that is.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I had told my therapist I'm like I understand
secondary trauma because I knewall the lingo.
I knew all the things.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Sure Right.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
This is not secondary trauma.
This is primary trauma.
You are being abused.
This is a domestic violencesituation.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
And in our situation.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
It was and it wasn't her fault.
It's just.
Her brain works as if she's inactive combat 24-7, just because
of all the abuse sheexperienced.
All the way up Her brain wiredto say people are not safe,
right.
And so totally defendingherself constantly against
(31:57):
threats that aren't really there, but on the receiving end of
things to have somebody say thisis not secondary trauma.
You are not just taking on hertrauma, you are actually like
this is primary trauma.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, and I think it's important.
We never want to say negativethings about our children
because we want to protect them,we want to protect their future
, and saying that we are abusedby our kids really does give a
different people view that,differently than what we
actually mean and what we'resaying.
However, the reality is, Ithink acknowledging that for
(32:34):
myself was, and realizing thiswas an abusive relationship.
We were mother, daughter andthis was such an abusive and
toxic relationship and removingus from the same space and
having the opportunity to laythat foundation and rebuild is
exactly what we needed.
(32:54):
Because I'm not saying thingsare great now, I'm not saying we
have it all figured out.
It's not.
It's horrible still, but itwould have and I don't say this
to be dramatic or negative inany way but I truly believe that
if in the at that pointresidential hadn't happened, one
(33:18):
or all of us would probably bedead by now.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
And I think that that is that's not to be funny or
dramatic.
It's really true.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
It's real life.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, yes, and I had to step away from it to
acknowledge that and realizethat, because I thought I could
fix it and I thought I could doit.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yep, well, we're told that, you know, I think so much
.
I love all the trauma training.
I love, you know, theconnection aspect of things and
the ability for human contact tohelp our brains heal, I think
is real right.
But I think a lot of times weminimize the impact of trauma,
(34:04):
we minimize how much it damagesthe brain and I don't think
minimizing that when we speakhelps anybody, because it is
serious.
Like our kids are not justresilient, they're just going to
go about their day.
(34:25):
Like people need to understandjust how serious these impacts
of trauma are.
It is not our kids, my, mychild that struggles the most,
is the most compassionate themost, the most.
I mean she is the sweetestperson, but trauma has changed
(34:50):
her brain, it just has.
It has.
And there's no way around itand we are not enough to fix it.
There was a couple of years agothere was something that had a
devastating incident with achild that was adopted or
whatever, and somebody there wasan influencer kind of in the
(35:16):
foster care and adoption spacethat got up and made the
statement that no child is toomuch, they're not too much, and
every child needs to know thatthey're not too much, they're
not too much, and every childneeds to know that they're not
too much.
And I agree with that whenyou're talking about a child and
(35:37):
a person and who they are attheir core.
But the reality is is sometimesthe trauma is too much and when
we say things, blanketstatements like that to make
people feel good, it doesn'thelp anybody, because then what
I felt was a bunch of shame thatI was not enough, that I was
(36:03):
placing that on my child that Ishould have been enough, that on
my child that I should havebeen enough.
And the fact is is I can't be,I can't be enough all the time.
I have limits to my body andwhat I can handle and the other
people in my household havelimits to what they can handle.
And in their bodies and youknow what she has limits as to
(36:26):
what.
We're trying to force her inthese boxes without any support,
right Like she has limits as towhat.
We're trying to force her inthese boxes without any support,
right Like she has limits as towhat she can handle and she
needed extra support and extracare that we just weren't able
to give her.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
And I think that's interesting.
Oh sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I was just going to say.
I would love to know, like youknow, just kind of your thoughts
on that and how, as moms, wecan kind of get over that hump
of not being enough.
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I don't know that we ever fully get over it.
Yeah, I mean, there's thatself-doubt and there's that
guilt all the time.
Yeah, do I question myself Isthis the right facility?
Did I put her in the rightplace?
Are we doing too much?
(37:52):
But there was something you saidactually made me think of a
conversation I had with someoneelse who's in a similar boat and
because mom meaning bio mom anddad hurt them so much that just
the relationship of they don'tfeel safe in.
Just because I am mom and myhusband is dad, just because of
those titles alone, they we'reforcing them into this
relationship that is soterrifying to them.
And that was such a profoundmoment when we had this
conversation because my husbandand I looked at each other like,
oh my goodness, we're sittinghere in these family sessions
(38:15):
going, but we love you, we wantyou home, get better, do the
things, come home.
And she's probably going.
That's really scary.
I don't want to, and for us,home is safe.
Mom and dad is safe.
Why wouldn't you want to behere versus a facility where
(38:38):
you're watching fights happenand getting involved in the
things, like why you know theamount of incident reports I get
?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
You are not alone.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Oh, my goodness, it's been awful.
It's been a really bad weekwith that, but you want to just
scream at them Like we're safe.
Have we not proved that to you?
Like now she's been in our homelonger than she ever was in her
biological family's home, andso you, as a mom, you're like
come on, what is wrong here?
(39:15):
Am I, how am I not enough?
How am I not giving enough?
And the reality is I never can,because of that trauma, if
anything.
Being mom and constantly beingin her face trying to prove
myself is actually making itworse.
(39:35):
And when that clicked this wasjust this week.
So it's not like I have a tonof like, oh wow, then everything
changed.
But I can see how nowapproaching things differently
may make a huge difference andI'm hopeful.
I don't know, but I think thatgoes back to we have that guilt
(39:57):
and we think that we're notenough.
Maybe we just can't be everbecause of who we are.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's so good and one of the
things that I have seen with mydaughter is I she actually we
have built a better relationshipwith her not being in our home
Interesting we have, because ithas allowed me to pour into her
(40:26):
without me being that threat ofbeing that mom, right, yeah, so
she could build thatrelationship with me and
actually I mean I am the onethat she will call.
I mean I would say herattachment to me has grown, it
has solidified.
I'm the one that she calls.
(40:49):
If she's melting down, ifsomething's going on at the
facility and she's upset and sheneeds to be regulated, she will
call me.
And so it's like that bond hasgrown while she's been away.
But I've had to be veryintentional about that right
Making sure.
I think it takes a lot moreintentionality from me to grow
(41:12):
that relationship while she'snot physically with me every day
.
But I mean I think it'sactually been really good for us
to have a little space so thatI can pour into her and build
that relationship from adistance where it's a little bit
safer for her in her mind, andso I know that you stay
(41:36):
connected.
I mean you're talking abouttherapy sessions with her and
all that kind of stuff.
So what are some ways?
If somebody has a child in anout-of-home placement, what are
some ways that they can keepbeing mom, what are some ways
that they can stay connected andkind of build that attachment
while a child's not at home?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So I think, when we're talking about attachment
issues, I would have told you ayear ago that her and I had a
very strong attachment and wewere very, very close.
I think now, looking back, itwas not a real attachment, it
was a survival attachment.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
I viewed it as very real.
For her, it was transactional.
Having that type ofrelationship with me and acting
like she was very close with memade it safe for her and gave
her that safety.
So when that all came crashingdown, I was devastated.
(42:33):
I'm like it's all been fake.
She wasn't my, but the realityis that I I had to refocus.
No, it was her way of surviving.
In her mind she had to act likethe try and be the favorite and
be the good child and be,because that was how she was
(42:54):
going to remain safe around me,and then she just couldn't keep
up the facade anymore.
So in a way, we're building fromalmost nothing and that has
been very hard and I thinkinitially and I don't know if
you experienced this too for usshe's been gone eight months now
, so we're still I don't knowthat sounds like such a long
(43:19):
time yet we're still so much inthe beginning stages of that
repair work and it's been really, really hard.
It has not been pretty.
It has been very, very ugly, um, and we don't have I, I can't
say that we it's distance hasbeen good for us.
(43:39):
I mean, we're not down eachother's throats, I guess you
know like we're not.
You know there is a safety, butI think that that has been
really hard.
I mean, there are, I would say,more phone calls than not where
I'm getting called and cussedout, yeah, but then there's also
(43:59):
those phone calls wheresomething happened and she needs
to talk to mom right now.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
So it's.
It's interesting.
I'm like wait, you just gotdone cussing me out.
Why now you need me?
Okay, um, but I think that isall a part of that repair work
and that building thatfoundation is okay.
Just because you did that to me, I'm still available when you
need me for the hard things, yes, yes.
(44:27):
Yes, and it's hard and I havehad to set boundaries.
I have, and I have had timeswhere I'm like this was too much
, I need to take a few days, andwe've set those boundaries with
the facility ahead of time.
I'm not just ignoring her.
Hey, you went too far this time.
Mom's got a lot of other stuffgoing on too.
(44:48):
I just I need a break.
We're going to call a timeoutand for 48 hours we're just
going to block no phone callsand then in 48 hours, when
you've had time to kind ofregulate, calm down, then we can
talk again.
So I think setting thoseboundaries of I'm still here for
you you don't get to treat melike that though and that's been
(45:09):
really, really important.
Also, what has been reallyimportant, too, is setting the
boundary.
I don't know why, but she lovesto call during dinner.
That's just the time that isher favorite to call, and so we
kind of had to set that boundaryas well, like, hey, we are
going to focus, cause I wasjumping up every time to answer
that phone call, like, and thenI'm removing myself from the
(45:33):
table, or if it's a rough phonecall, the kids are being exposed
to it, and that's not fair tothe ones who are still here.
They need our attention, theyneed that dinner time as a
family and everything.
So we had to set that boundaryof if you call between these
hours we're not going to answer,we just aren't.
You can call us later and wewill, but we're not going to
(45:54):
answer during these hours.
Does she still call multipletimes a week during those hours?
Absolutely, but it alleviatedthat.
Well, why are you ignoring mycalls Now?
She knows She'll still try, butshe knows that we're not
ignoring the calls.
She knows that after well, shehas a pretty strict time too
that she can't call after.
(46:15):
But you know, after certainhours, if the sorry we're not
answering, if they really needto get a hold of us, it'll be,
it'll come from a different lineand I'll know.
You know that I that I need toanswer.
So just really being upfrontand setting those boundaries has
really alleviated a lot of theanxiety around her end of
(46:38):
maintaining that connection andI didn't really realize that at
first, how much that, how muchanxiety she has because I mean,
get it, she's 13, she's gettingdropped off.
I was there for an hour to signsome paperwork and then I left.
Yeah, and so I'm that's.
That's traumatic for a 13 yearold yeah, very traumatic,
(47:00):
especially for any 13 year old,let alone having the history
that she had.
So having those clearexpectations and those
boundaries, while it's helpingus and protecting our sanity and
our time with the family athome, it's also easing her
anxiety, too.
Around it she knows when shecan call, when we will answer,
(47:22):
when we're going to be available, and I think that's really
important to set those veryclear boundaries.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
I've seen that too.
I have some weekends where I dotraining for the whole weekend
and I let her know ahead of timehey, I'm training this weekend,
so I'm not going to beavailable, and it keeps her mind
from going to a place.
now she still may call right umlike you said, but but it keeps
(47:50):
her mind from going to a placeof they don't want to answer,
like it sets that boundary.
That it's not about that.
It's that I'm because I thinkin our case my daughter quickly
goes to they don't want toanswer, they're rejecting me and
and so letting her know upfront.
This is not what that is rightLike.
(48:11):
I just have times where I'm notavailable.
It doesn't mean that you're notimportant, that I'm not going
to answer your call, that I'mnot going to meet your needs,
but just know that you knowduring this time I can't be
available.
I agree that that has probablyeased some of her anxiety.
(48:31):
On our side, I love thoseboundaries that you're setting
within the structure of yourrelationship, that you're saying
, hey, these are my boundaries,I'm not going to be treated in a
way that is unsafe for me.
And I think it's important forparents to know that you don't
have to accept dangerousbehavior.
(48:56):
You can set boundaries thatmake it safe for you as well.
I think I didn't know thatearly on.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
No, I didn't either.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I would literally just sit there and take the
abuse like physical abuse andjust be like this is what I'm
supposed to do, like this iswhat it looks like to be here,
no matter what, and I think youknow that is not always a good
(49:26):
thing.
Well, I think I know that someresidential facilities have
different policies, havedifferent you know, and we have
to adhere to whatever theirstuff is.
I know in our case we have beenvery grateful to be able to,
like I can bring in food, I caneven.
We're at a point in our journeywe are a little further along
(49:50):
on our journey than you are andI think in the beginning that it
was a lot harder, that distancewas a lot harder, but we are
like seven years in to doing thehospitals and residentials.
I mean we're on likehospitalization, I don't know
number 40, 50.
(50:11):
I stopped counting at somepoint.
And so you know we have beendoing this for a very long time
and I think in the beginning itwas more like what you're
explaining.
I think now we're in a patternwhere their relationship is
actually growing and gettingbetter, but we also have some
(50:36):
flexibility where she is now,because we are further along in
the process and we have a goodrelationship.
The facility that she's in nowis like it's like her fourth
time there and so they know us,we know the situation and, like
I took her to the movies, shewanted to go see the new Mufasa
(51:01):
movie.
We went and, you know, hung outat the movies and I think some
of those things have been verybeneficial as well, because we
do get to have, even in themidst of her being placed
somewhere else, we do get tohave some normal, more normal
mother-daughter moments.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
Yeah, yeah, very much looking forward to that.
It's hard.
So the facility that we're atright now, it has a phase system
, okay, so you have to.
It's most restricted in phaseone.
Then you kind of graduate andthe restrictions become less.
We're still in phase one yeahafter eight months.
(51:39):
So she's not able it's not, Imean she can't, she has to prove
that she can be safe to leavethe facility.
Sure, and we're not there yet.
So those are times that I and Ikind of try and dangle the
carrot, like we can do thesethings if you just do the work.
And we're just not there yet.
So I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
A lot of times, like those carrots can actually be,
like our kids can sabotagethemselves because they have in
their mind that they're not evergoing to get there, you know,
and so it just creates a veryodd dynamic, but I'll give you
hope those stages do.
They do come to where you knowyou're able to have more
(52:25):
flexibility, or whatever, towhere you know you're able to
have more flexibility, orwhatever.
Well, one other thing that Iwant to ask is how has having a
child placed outside of the homeimpacted the other kids in the
home?
Um, and your family, yourhusband, your family unit?
The way the family works right,like I it, it changes when a
(52:47):
child is, is not there full time.
So, um, how have you seen thatimpact the other kids in your
home?
Speaker 2 (52:55):
It impact them tremendously.
So we have a very large age gap, um, between our two sets of
siblings.
There is a seven year age gapgap there and the little ones
adored their older sisters likethey adore, adored, as if they
don't still.
They absolutely still adorethem, um, so that has been
(53:20):
really difficult and I thinkthey were young enough when my
oldest was gone and she was onlygone for three months, so they
it didn't impact them in thesame way.
Now, um, my youngest daughterand the one who's in residential
now shared a room.
So they, that was very, veryhard, many tears.
(53:43):
I can't sleep without her here.
Where is she?
When is she coming back?
I mean, they were so bonded andreally had just such a sweet
relationship, even though therewas this huge age gap.
It was just the sweetestrelationship between the two of
them.
So that was very, verydevastating and over time it's
(54:05):
she's just kind of accepted itand she doesn't really ask about
her a whole lot, doesn't, whichis also odd.
I don't know.
I don't know.
She's only six.
You know, she's processingthings in her own way.
Now, my little guy, he was, ohno, it all happened on his
(54:27):
fourth birthday, um, the wholething started on his birthday.
Um, so he was just four whenshe left and that was very, very
difficult for him.
He still, I mean, middle of thenight we'll get up and cry.
I just want her home.
When is she coming home?
Very, very hard on him.
(54:50):
His preschool teacher said heprays for her every day during
his snack time prayer.
So that's hard to hear.
And then obviously, my oldest,that's her biological sister and
she's gone and there's so manylayers to it.
One she went throughresidential too and was like I
(55:13):
did it, I got out and moved on.
What's your problem, right?
So there's that aspect of twowildly different reasons for
going, wildly differentpersonalities to begin with,
like those two could not beanywhere different even though
they're sisters.
So I think there's so manyemotions in our home.
(55:35):
My husband is.
He deals with it in verydifferent ways.
He's absolutely devastated byit.
I think his comes out in alittle bit more in anger.
You know why?
Why weren't we enough and whycan't you come?
Why can't you just do what you?
You haven't laid out?
You have the roadmap, do it andcome home.
(55:57):
Um, so we all have dealt with itin different ways, where for me
it's been more that emotional,the like we talk about the, the
struggles of why wasn't I enough, and then just not having all
of my children here has beenvery hard.
I'm used to doing things forfour kids and now I have three.
(56:18):
I don't have to consider, andit feels wrong to not consider
the one, but I don't have to, sothat has been really, really
challenging.
One thing that has been hugefor us well, really, two things
one, and they go together, butone is really surrounding
ourselves with people whounderstand trauma and the
(56:41):
effects of trauma, not only forthe sake of understanding what
happened with our daughter, butalso understanding that this is
very traumatic for our kids too,on top of their other trauma.
So we got another layer and youthink there should be no more
(57:01):
trauma.
In the adoptive home Well sorry,there's a whole lot right now.
So it's been really hard and wereally have to surround
ourselves.
And in the adaptive home Wellsorry, we just there's a whole
lot right now, so it's it's beenreally hard and we really have
to surround ourselves.
And, in the same aspect, wehave to distance ourselves from
people who don't understand itor who are very judgmental or
are painting an alternatenarrative of what's happening
(57:25):
and we just had to distanceourselves because I'm sorry it's
one of the things that's meright but truly, your words are
so hurtful and we're already soraw that we can't, we just can't
, and that's just been aboundary that we've had just
that too.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great to give parents
permission, you know, really inin that space to do both things
to bring some people close andto let them see, you know the
the raw of what's going on.
You know, making sure that thatthat group is very safe, um,
(58:08):
but also to distance yourselffrom some other influences that
may not be speaking life intoyour, into your family, um, okay
, so I have a question that Ididn't tell you about beforehand
, but just as we're talking, I Iwould love to know, like, if
you could change one thing aboutthe mental health system I have
(58:30):
to choose just one.
Wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (58:37):
We could do a whole series on that.
Amen, amen.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
But if you could change one thing, like, what
would be the biggest thing thatyou would change?
But if you?
Speaker 2 (58:47):
could change one thing like what would be the
biggest thing that you wouldchange?
I think honestly, truly, thatall therapists, anyone who comes
into contact, nurses, doctors,even social workers, police
(59:10):
officers, any paramedics,anybody who is going to come in
contact with someone who hasmental health struggles,
whatever they are, they have tobe trauma informed, they have to
understand the effects oftrauma, because you would think
that that's common sense andthat they all are and they all
would understand it, but it'sactually really rare for
somebody to understand it, andthat is such a disservice to not
(59:32):
only the patients but thefamilies and their caregivers
too.
Speaker 1 (59:36):
Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree, and I was very
surprised about that.
About.
Speaker 2 (59:42):
I was too, I was too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
There is no trauma awareness in those circles.
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
I was too, I was too like in crisis stabilization.
Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Like how do things go together.
How is this helpful?
How is this helpful, right, andI know that that's a very
little piece of the puzzle, butI think it.
It goes to hey, we're notreally thinking through these
things, like, right, we're justkind of going through the
motions, we're not really beingtrauma informed, we're not
thinking through about what'sbest for these kids and how to
(01:00:28):
set them up for success, how tohelp them heal, but we're just
kind of going through themotions and all of it.
Yeah Well, anna, as we wrap up,what do you, what would you say
, has like, helped you getthrough all of this turmoil and
chaos?
Right, because this is hard,this is hard stuff, this is real
(01:00:52):
hard stuff.
So, what do you lean on?
What do you look to?
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
I mean, honestly, my faith in God.
That is the only thing that hasgotten us through this.
I truly don't know how anybodycould face the things that we've
had to face without him thereand I think, having to fully
trust that he has a plan in allof this, when it makes zero
(01:01:22):
sense from my perspective, likeum hello, this makes zero sense.
And he does have a plan, though, and I don't understand it and
I don't see it at all.
I can't even remotelycomprehend it.
But there is a plan and I thinkone of the biggest things too
that I've lately reallystruggled with and I was
(01:01:43):
actually just telling a friendthis last night lately really
struggled with, and I wasactually just telling a friend
this last night I can say that Itrust him and and I truly do, I
trust him.
I trust that he is carrying.
I mean, he is carrying usthrough this.
There's no way.
It's not just I trust that hewill.
He is but I think sometimes I'mlosing that hope that he will
(01:02:06):
heal her and that we will seethe other side of this, and that
is something I am reallystruggling with and really
trying to grasp onto.
Is that hope the hope that Iand some people may think that
they're the same, but I cantrust that he's good, while also
being like I'm losing hope thatyou're going to actually fix
(01:02:28):
this and I'm going to see it inmy lifetime, and so that has
been.
I mean, I'm not going to saythat, oh, my walk of faith has
been great and wonderful andeverything's perfect.
But without that and withoutGod carrying our family through
this, I truly don't know wherewe would be.
That has been everything.
Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I do think sometimes that
wrestling is good right, likesometimes those moments, because
those places in our heart ofunbelief are there.
You know, I feel like I live inthe constant posture of I
believe, lord, help my unbelief,because I do, I do trust, I do
(01:03:11):
believe.
But there are still those areas, that kind of pinprick, you
know, do you really in this,like you know this too, so I
love that you put that out there.
Well, anna, I reallyappreciated this conversation
today and I think it's going tobe so helpful for so many
(01:03:31):
parents to not feel alone,because I think a lot of times
when we're facing more escalatedstuff, more elevated behaviors,
I think we can even beyondregular foster care and adoption
aloneness like we.
It goes a step further thatsometimes we feel segregated
(01:03:52):
even within the adoption andfoster care community 100% 100%.
So I appreciate you being heretoday.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you for havingme.
If you know somebody that isfacing similar challenges, would
you send them this episode?
I really desire for foster andadoptive parents to know that
(01:04:15):
they are not alone, that thereare lots of people that are
facing similar challenges.
Let me pray for us as we wrapup today.
Lord God, thank you so much thatwe can come together and talk
about these hard and difficultthings.
Lord, thank you that we canspeak with grace and receive
(01:04:38):
things with grace.
Help us walk in discernment.
Lord, these challenges in ourhome are hard.
Help us to know that we werenever meant to be enough.
We were meant to be dependenton you.
Lord, give parents grace today.
Give them grace today.
Help them cast away all theguilt, all the shame, and just
(01:05:04):
walk in grace.
Lord, you are good.
Comfort us in these challengingmoments.
Be our strength.
Give us discernment how to walkthese paths in obedience to you
and in honor and love to ourkids.
Lord, we are so thankful thatwe don't have to walk this path
alone.
We love you.
(01:05:25):
We trust you In Jesus' name,amen.
Welcome to the Foster Parent Well podcast, where we
have real candid, faith-filledconversations about all things
foster care, adoption and trauma.
I'm your host, nicole T Barlow.
I'm a certified parent trainer,a certified health coach and an
adoptive parent myself.
This is a space where you canfind support so that you can
care for your kids with asteadfast faith, endurance and
(00:42):
joy.
I want you to foster parentwell.
My name is Nicole T Barlow andI am your host.
Well, today, you guys, we have alittle bit of a longer podcast
(01:04):
for you and I got to be honest,I'm a little nervous about this
one.
I open up in this podcasttelling a part of our foster
care and adoption story that wehave not really told publicly
yet.
I mean, our community, thepeople that are in our lives in
real life, know this part of ourstory, but I have not shared
(01:28):
this on the podcast before.
But I do think some of theseharder conversations, digging
into some of these harder topics, are so important.
But I would ask you this Iwould ask that you give us grace
.
We are trying to navigate thesereally difficult and hard
(01:49):
conversations with grace, butthere may be times where we say
something or where somethingcomes out in a way that is
received differently than wemean it.
That is received differentlythan we mean it, and so I want
to preface this podcast by justsaying you know, I think as
(02:20):
adoptive parents, we love ourkids.
We would lay down our lives,honor our kids and their stories
.
But also, if we are not sayingthe hard things, if we're not
talking about the realchallenges of foster care, of
adoption, of trauma and theeffects of trauma, then we're
(02:41):
doing a disservice to everybody.
We're alienating foster parents, adoptive parents that are
going through some of thesebigger challenges, because, you
guys, this is stuff that nobodyis really talking about.
So my guest today is AnnaBernacki.
She's a wife and a mom to fourchildren who were adopted
(03:04):
through foster care, and as anadoptee herself, anna's life has
been shaped by the profoundthemes of identity, belonging
and unconditional love.
She brings a deeply personalperspective to her work as an
educator for foster and adoptivefamilies, especially those
navigating the complexities ofspecial needs parenting.
(03:26):
As a mother of two children whohave required placement in
residential treatment facilities, anna knows the heartbreak and
perseverance it takes to lovefrom a distance.
She has walked the difficultpath of advocating for her
children's safety and healing,while striving to maintain
connection and fosterrestoration within her family.
(03:47):
In the midst of thesechallenges, anna has leaned on
her faith, finding strength inGod's promises and hope in His
ability to bring beauty frombrokenness.
And that's what we're going tobe talking to Anna about.
Today is when you have kids thatneed to live outside of the
home, that need need to liveoutside of the home, that need
to be placed outside of the home, whether for a short season or
(04:10):
for a longer season.
How do we navigate thosechallenges?
So let's jump right in.
Well, welcome Anna to the show.
I'm so excited to have you heretoday and I've really been
looking forward to thisconversation because I think
that what we're going to discusstoday can really be impactful
(04:32):
for so many people.
So, as we get started, tell mea little bit about your story
and how you got into foster carein the adoption world.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
So I actually am adopted myself, so adoption has
was more normal than anythingelse to me.
Um, I all my siblings areadopted as well.
None of us are biologicallyrelated, so having a family that
was not biologically related toeach other was my normal.
Um, something I always searchedfor, always wanted, was that
(05:04):
biological connection.
It defines a lot of mychildhood.
Honestly, I really just wouldlay in bed and dream about it.
I wanted that so badly and so,as after getting married and
thinking about family, I wantedbiological children more than
anything else in the world.
And then God said nope, that'snot my plan for your life.
(05:27):
So we ended up kind of exploringdifferent adoption avenues and
really landed back with thereare children who need homes.
Right now, we have extrabedrooms in our home, let's fill
them.
Bedrooms in our home let's fillthem.
(05:48):
And we really wanted to dosibling groups.
So that's what we did.
We started fostering and weended up adopting our first two
placements after 18 months.
So it was super fast case.
We did not expect that at all.
We thought we'd foster and havekind of a revolving door for a
while, but that did not happenat all.
And then we got two youngerchildren and we have now.
(06:11):
That was a much longer case,but we have now adopted them as
well.
So we have four adoptedchildren through the foster care
system.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Oh, wow, that's, that's awesome.
Well, what was your viewgrowing up, you know, being
adopted Like what was your viewof adoption?
I know you said you kind ofalways dreamed of your
biological that side of yourfamily, but did you have a good
experience being adopted?
Did you have a negativeexperience?
(06:38):
I know everybody's experiencesvary so much.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Somebody's experiences vary so much.
Yeah, I think I never knew anyother adoptees when I was
younger.
So I, you know, as a child, youbelieve the narrative that
you're given right, it'sbeautiful, god created you to be
in our family.
Um, you were born for us, youknow kind of that narrative and
(07:03):
it never felt quite right.
But also I didn't know anythingelse.
I had nothing else to compareit to, so I had a lot of longing
.
It was a completely closedadoption, like I wasn't able to
even know my biological parents'names until after I was 18.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
And even then it was really hard to find.
So I mean now with the internetit's a lot easier and that was
pretty common.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
That was pretty common back then that things
were done that way, right it was.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah, it was very common.
But I think it added an elementthat a lot of people today may
not understand, becauseadoptions are typically more
open, or at least you know whothe parents are.
There's more information givennow.
So that was definitely astruggle.
Growing up, there was thatinternal struggle of like I
(07:54):
should feel fine here.
I was told I had no traumabecause I was straight Well, I
wasn't straight from thehospital.
I was taken straight from thehospital and then I was in
foster care for a very shorttime before placed in my
adoptive family.
So I don't know, I just neverthought of myself as having
trauma.
I've lived this beautiful lifeand I really did.
I was very privileged.
(08:15):
I had a wonderful childhoodgrowing up and then as an adult
and going through the adoptionprocess with my own kids and
watching them grieve becausethey knew their parents and
watching them grieve, I was like, oh, this is what I missed out
on.
This is those same feelings Ihad.
(08:37):
I just didn't have a connect, aparent, to connect that to.
So it was kind of this mysteryfeeling of why am I grieving
people I don't even know?
I don't even know their name,and so then I was able to kind
of connect the dots and realize,and then I started grieving all
over.
I didn't really grieve myadoption and process all of that
until I was an adult andwalking my own kids through it.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Wow, that's amazing how, how watching their
experience kind of gives contextto what you were feeling and
I'm sure you were able to bemuch more empathetic to them in
their grief, since you I meanyou were processing in real time
your own stuff, exactly.
Yeah, well, how has traumaimpacted your kids and your
(09:24):
family now, like as an adult,and I mean you've you talked
about how that has kind ofstirred things up in you, but
what have you seen as theimpacts of of trauma on your
family?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I mean the impacts of trauma on our family are
tremendous.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I know like what area doesn't it touch right Right,
right.
Yeah, it is tremendous.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I know like what area , doesn't it touch Right Right?
Yeah, it is tremendous, and Ithink you know there's a broad
spectrum.
Um, each one of our childrenhas their own struggles and I
don't think I mean, we have manydiagnoses in between all the
kids.
It's not.
We certainly do not have atypical family.
I don't even know what thatlooks like, I have no context
(10:05):
for what that is, yeah, but eachone has really struggled in
their own way.
So our two oldest kids wereadopted at well, they came to us
at six and 10 and then wereadopted at eight and 11.
I think, just the way theirbirthdays fall, so it was eight
and 11,.
I think just the way theirbirthdays fall, so it was eight
(10:26):
and 11.
Um, and because they were olderand experienced so much more
trauma in the home, like theirstory is still unfolding, we
still find new things out Um,and it was truly a horrific.
I mean, you look at asix-year-old.
I have another six-year-old nowand I look at her and I'm like
(10:48):
the stuff that that child wentthrough before coming to our
home is so unreal andunbelievable.
It's a world that so manypeople cannot even comprehend,
(11:10):
even comprehend, and so I thinkkind of seeing their struggles
in a different way.
Now.
Our younger two had a lot ofprenatal trauma, so that comes
out in a different way.
Yes, we got them straight fromthe hospital.
That does not spare them fromtrauma, it does not.
So it's been very, verydifferent.
Our older kids have definitelystruggled with more mental
illness because of how thetrauma has affected their brain.
(11:37):
It's not the same brain as ahealthy, typical child, so that
has been really hard.
Our oldest daughter, when shewas, I want to say I think she
was 14.
She had some bullying at schoolthat we did not know about.
She's very quiet and doesn'treally share a lot.
(11:57):
So when we finally found outwhat was happening, she was
already really really strugglingwith wanting to still be alive
and be with us.
She had no self-worth, did notthink that she had any reason to
still be here.
So we ended up in the hospitalpretty rapidly two times in a
(12:21):
row and it was recommended to usthat she go to a residential
treatment facility.
So she went to a 90 day programin and out Absolutely
incredible.
She's thriving ever since,really found herself worth, not
to say she doesn't have hermoments.
She doesn't ever struggle, shecertainly does, but she is doing
(12:43):
so incredible.
She did the work.
It's been amazing.
So that was just kind of ourhappily ever after story with
that.
And then we had our seconddaughter, who we knew when she
walked in that door at six yearsold.
That child was something else.
She was.
(13:05):
We were not naive to what wewere getting ourselves into and
many people said you're reallygoing to adopt her?
Yeah, we are, because we wereher fifth home in six months.
Wow, and it just I mean I'lllet you put the puzzle pieces
together on that one as to why.
(13:26):
So it was very challenging, butat the time we didn't have other
children in the home.
We didn't have we had thecapacity to handle it and as a
six-year-old it's much moremanageable because they're
little and you can handle it.
So after she was adopted, thereseemed to be this huge lull in
(13:48):
all of the behaviors.
It really gave her.
It seemed to give her thesecurity she needed.
She knew she wasn't goinganywhere, she was with us
forever.
This was her home.
It really gave her thatsecurity for a while Honestly a
couple of years and theneverything exploded again.
I think she was 12.
Everything exploded again andit's been a nonstop cycle since
(14:13):
then, it's been very, verydifficult.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Anna, do you think that?
And I ask this question becausethis is part of what we have
seen both in our own home and inother people that are facing
similar journeys?
We also have a child that livesin residential and has gone
(14:36):
through the hospital cycles, andone of the things that I
noticed is there is a hugeuptake at puberty.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yes, when puberty hits it's like the trauma
accelerates times 30.
Yes, and it just becomes reallyhard for our kids 100%.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yes, I would love to do research on that.
I'm sure they're out theresomewhere, but it's definitely
is it has to be a thing it is.
Well, I mean, I I'm currentlywatching some other families
that have had kids that havebeen adopted and in their homes
for years, and now that they'reentering puberty it's a whole
different shift.
So we may have some listenersthat don't understand the world
(15:33):
of hospitalizations andresidential and all of that kind
of stuff.
So will you explain twodifferent things to me the
difference between a crisishospitalization, stabilization
kind of thing and residential.
What does that mean?
What are the differences andwhat types of behaviors lead
(15:53):
kids to like?
What would lead you to say, hey, I think this child needs a
little more care?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Sure.
So, starting withhospitalization, it definitely
would be those, like you said,crisis in the home where it's
usually more of an isolatedincident, where you're having,
whether it's suicidal ideation,whether it's a plan, whether
it's self-harming, basically, orthoughts of injuring or hurting
(16:25):
other people in the home.
It's usually those things wherein this moment, right now, I
cannot, I can no longer keepthis child safe.
So then you have to call Umsometimes.
Now with my oldest daughter,she came to us and we figured it
out and I was able to take herinto the hospital and went
(16:47):
through the evaluation processwith her.
With my younger one, it wasmore of that crisis.
We had to call 911 and had tohave help come into the home.
So it really kind of theprocess is very different
between those two.
Even Like that.
Those are two even different,whole different worlds.
So once you end up in that ER,all bets are off.
(17:09):
You are out of control, thingsjust happen and then they
usually, if it's, they'll do anevaluation on them If they
determine that they need to bestabilized, maybe, maybe they
haven't been taking theirmedication, they need to get
back on it, adjust medication,are not on medication at all,
(17:31):
but just really need someintensive therapies, then they
will go ahead and hospitalize.
Usually that's the max I'veseen it is two weeks, so usually
like a week to two weeks.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah, I think the max we've seen is like 10 days,
that kind of two week, two weeksetting.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, and usually by then you know the child has
stabilized, you've been able towork on some things between home
and the child.
Were there miscommunicationthings?
Were there behaviors betweenboth, you know, between parents
and child.
That needed to be addressed wassomething that the parent was
doing, triggering something fromthe past, and that was the
(18:12):
reaction and behavior.
You know there's a lot of um,there's a lot of factors that go
into that, so you can, um,adjust and kind of get out of
that cycle and thehospitalization will break the
cycle and you're good to go andthat's all you need.
But then there are other timeswhere that is a repeated cycle
(18:36):
and it's happening way toofrequently, way too often, way
too often, and it's just thatthat hospitalization is no
longer working.
Um, our case was really uniquein that we had so, from the
first call, a police officeractually came into our home who
(18:58):
was clearly not trauma informed.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
It's the worst we have had it.
We had a police officer come inand say I will take off my belt
right now and give it to yourmom and I'm like what oh, we had
the opposite.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Oh, we had the opposite.
This police officer filed areport against us to dcfs
because they assumed that nochild would want to end their
life or hurt themselves unlessthey were being abused in the
home.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So while he witnessed absolutely nothing, he could
not grasp that a child, thatthere wasn't another factor.
So he reported us and we had togo through a full investigation
.
But what ended up happening inthat investigation, which is
wild to me, is that they endedup determining it was unfounded
(19:53):
against us as parents, but theyended up determining that the
child was a danger to our home.
Yeah, so they forced us toresidential treatment.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Which we it was very much on our radar.
We were in the process.
Actually, we had alreadyapplied, we were in the process
of finding a place.
We were in the process.
Actually, we had alreadyapplied.
We were in the process offinding a place.
We were already there, yeah,but it sped it up and so it was
very odd circumstances how thathappened, yeah, and then they
kind of threatened us that if wedid not follow through with it
(20:24):
then we would lose all of ourkids.
So, yeah, scary, very, veryscary it really is.
So that was very oddcircumstances, but again, it was
already on our radar.
We were not naive to the factthat we were heading that
direction.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, yeah, we are our experience.
So we did one kind of crisisthing pretty early on after
adoption.
We are the same.
We kind of knew that this childhad a lot of diagnoses.
We didn't know all of them, butyou know, we knew that there
were a lot of diagnoses and thatthis was going to be not an
(21:08):
easy road for her just long term.
But we didn't see any kind ofthe behaviors on the front end
that we saw post-adoption.
Post-adoption adoption was verytriggering for her Interesting.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, one of her other siblings.
So we adopted a sibling groupof five.
One of her other siblings wasjust the opposite, had a really
hard time before adoption, andadoption settled everything for
(21:55):
her, that kind of set things inmotion, and so she went to the
hospital.
Probably the first time shewent to the hospital was
probably a week after adoption,and then we had, we had a period
of time where we kind ofstabilized her.
Everything was fine.
But then we got started on thehospital cycles pretty rapidly
(22:18):
and what we found I think forkids that have attachment
struggles specifically issometimes that hospital provides
a little bit of an attachmentreprieve.
Yes, so they have noaccountability, they have no
relationships they have.
(22:39):
They're not vulnerable, youknow, like they are when they're
in close relationship withpeople.
And so that became somethingthat she actually was actively
working towards was getting tothe hospital on a regular basis,
because she liked that it gaveher body a little reprieve from
(23:02):
those close relationships thather brain was saying, hey, this
isn't safe, this isn't safe, youknow people aren't safe.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We noticed that too.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And I think that's so common where they start this
cycle.
I always tell parents that cometo me that have you know that
are starting to see some ofthese bigger behaviors.
Hold off as long as you can onhospital stays and not to say
that you don't have to go thatroute, because sometimes you do
(23:34):
have to go that route.
It is needed, it is necessary.
But if you have a child thatstruggles with attachment and
has diagnoses around attachment,that hospital stay can actually
make things worse, not better.
I have seen it in kids thatdon't have the same level of
(23:56):
attachment struggles.
I have seen it do great thingsright and really give them a
chance to get their medicationin order and to stabilize them.
But I think it's a differentstory sometimes for kids that
have a higher level ofattachment struggle.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, 100%.
I agree with that.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Well, when you have a child that's in out-of-home
placement, I think I felt somuch shame in the beginning that
my child couldn't be at homeand we were kind of the same way
.
We got to a place where it wasvery unsafe for our other kids
(24:43):
and it was being bumped upagainst that.
You know, we might face somedifferent things if anything
happened in the home, because weknew there were struggles and
we and so anyway, that's part ofthe reason we sought out longer
term care the way that we did.
(25:04):
But I think people have thisidea that placing them somewhere
else, either for a couple ofmonths and in our area I don't
know about you, anna, but in ourarea most residential
facilities will keep a childthree to six months at a time
because that's all insurancewill take care of, take care of.
(25:25):
But I think I thought, if Iplace them outside of the home,
then that I haven't done enough,I haven't been able to stick it
out, I haven't been able tolove this child enough to help
them heal, right.
So I want you to talk aboutthat a little bit.
(25:48):
But then I think the other ideais that once they're placed
somewhere else, that we don'thave a role to play, and I think
that's very wrong too.
I think we can still remainvery, very active, very present
in in their journey and theirhealing and all of their stuff
as they go along.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, so as the shame , oh, my goodness, the shame.
Yes, it is so real and I think,well, mental health as a whole
has such a stigma to it, whichit shouldn't, but it does in our
society.
So we're already have thatissue and that that we're
(26:30):
battling.
But then there's also the selftoo.
As mothers, our job, like atthe core of who we are as a
mother, is to love and protectyour children, and nowhere in
any of the books do they say youmay not be the one to do that.
(26:52):
Yeah, right, like it's allabout.
They need to be with the motherand you need to nurture and
love and give of yourself andall of these things.
And then you realize, wait, I'mnot enough, I can't do this,
and that is a horrible feeling,it is absolutely horrible and I
(27:13):
really, really struggled withthat.
I was just so devastated withmyself, like there were layers
to the grief, when my daughterleft.
I was devastated with myselfthat I wasn't capable of being
the mother she needed me to be,which we'll circle back to that.
(27:33):
But then also, she's not in thehome room floor and the clothes
in the laundry, and there'sjust so much the pictures that
pop up on your phone.
(27:54):
There's so many things thatjust snap you back to reality,
like, oh my goodness, she's nothere.
The empty seat at the dinnertable, it was absolutely
horrific.
And then you have your otherchildren grieving her loss and
they're coming to you crying Imiss her.
I miss her when is she cominghome?
And you have to say I don'tknow, and it's going to be a
long time.
And so there's so many layersto the guilt.
(28:16):
You feel guilty that you'reputting this harm on your
children and that you can'tfunction and you're sad and you
weren't enough.
And so that was a huge processfor me.
And I will say this, and I amprobably going to say this about
10 more times while we'retalking moms need to be in
therapy.
If you are parenting kids fromhard places whether they're in
(28:40):
residential or not, it doesn'tmatter If you are parenting a
child from a hard place, youneed to be in therapy.
And this is a hill I will dieon, because, as moms, we do give
and we always say well, thattakes away resources from the
family.
It takes time.
I don't have time.
The reality is you have an hour.
You have an hour a week.
You can find an hour you can,you can figure out somewhere in
(29:03):
the budget to get that copay orwhatever.
And because it is so importantand it has allowed me to have
the capacity to be a good motherand to be the mother that my
other children need.
It is not taking away, it isadding to my family.
Yeah, that's just another sidenote.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Well, I do want to say, though, while you're
talking about that, though, itis very, very important that
your therapist is traumainformed, so that you are
getting feedback thatunderstands the complexity of
what your situation is, becausea therapist that doesn't
understand that is going to makethings worse.
Shame wise for you, very true,and how they're directing you to
(29:47):
handle things.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yes, that is very true, and I'm spoiled because
I've been with my therapist forthree years now and I love her
and she knows every aspect of mylife.
But she truly walked me throughthe grief.
She had been with me throughthe past several years,
obviously, and building up tothis, she told me that we needed
to do residential, long beforeI considered it and I was like
(30:12):
no, you don't understand.
You don't understand, I couldnever do that.
I'm not doing that to my child,I'm going to maintain a
connection.
And she really sat there andwas like no, and it was after my
daughter left and, processingthrough all this, I was actually
diagnosed with PTSD from whathad happened in the home and
(30:32):
that was the biggest light bulbfor me going Whoa, it was bad.
Yeah, it that was.
It was real, I wasn'texaggerating, I wasn't making
(30:56):
this up and it it was very real.
And so therapy is just soimportant because you have to be
able to process these thingsWell and to have an outside
perspective, just to go no, thisis what that is.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
I had told my therapist I'm like I understand
secondary trauma because I knewall the lingo.
I knew all the things.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Sure Right.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
This is not secondary trauma.
This is primary trauma.
You are being abused.
This is a domestic violencesituation.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
And in our situation.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
It was and it wasn't her fault.
It's just.
Her brain works as if she's inactive combat 24-7, just because
of all the abuse sheexperienced.
All the way up Her brain wiredto say people are not safe,
right.
And so totally defendingherself constantly against
(31:57):
threats that aren't really there, but on the receiving end of
things to have somebody say thisis not secondary trauma.
You are not just taking on hertrauma, you are actually like
this is primary trauma.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yeah, and I think it's important.
We never want to say negativethings about our children
because we want to protect them,we want to protect their future
, and saying that we are abusedby our kids really does give a
different people view that,differently than what we
actually mean and what we'resaying.
However, the reality is, Ithink acknowledging that for
(32:34):
myself was, and realizing thiswas an abusive relationship.
We were mother, daughter andthis was such an abusive and
toxic relationship and removingus from the same space and
having the opportunity to laythat foundation and rebuild is
exactly what we needed.
(32:54):
Because I'm not saying thingsare great now, I'm not saying we
have it all figured out.
It's not.
It's horrible still, but itwould have and I don't say this
to be dramatic or negative inany way but I truly believe that
if in the at that pointresidential hadn't happened, one
(33:18):
or all of us would probably bedead by now.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
And I think that that is that's not to be funny or
dramatic.
It's really true.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
It's real life.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, yes, and I had to step away from it to
acknowledge that and realizethat, because I thought I could
fix it and I thought I could doit.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yep, well, we're told that, you know, I think so much
.
I love all the trauma training.
I love, you know, theconnection aspect of things and
the ability for human contact tohelp our brains heal, I think
is real right.
But I think a lot of times weminimize the impact of trauma,
(34:04):
we minimize how much it damagesthe brain and I don't think
minimizing that when we speakhelps anybody, because it is
serious.
Like our kids are not justresilient, they're just going to
go about their day.
(34:25):
Like people need to understandjust how serious these impacts
of trauma are.
It is not our kids, my, mychild that struggles the most,
is the most compassionate themost, the most.
I mean she is the sweetestperson, but trauma has changed
(34:50):
her brain, it just has.
It has.
And there's no way around itand we are not enough to fix it.
There was a couple of years agothere was something that had a
devastating incident with achild that was adopted or
whatever, and somebody there wasan influencer kind of in the
(35:16):
foster care and adoption spacethat got up and made the
statement that no child is toomuch, they're not too much, and
every child needs to know thatthey're not too much, they're
not too much, and every childneeds to know that they're not
too much.
And I agree with that whenyou're talking about a child and
(35:37):
a person and who they are attheir core.
But the reality is is sometimesthe trauma is too much and when
we say things, blanketstatements like that to make
people feel good, it doesn'thelp anybody, because then what
I felt was a bunch of shame thatI was not enough, that I was
(36:03):
placing that on my child that Ishould have been enough, that on
my child that I should havebeen enough.
And the fact is is I can't be,I can't be enough all the time.
I have limits to my body andwhat I can handle and the other
people in my household havelimits to what they can handle.
And in their bodies and youknow what she has limits as to
(36:26):
what.
We're trying to force her inthese boxes without any support,
right Like she has limits as towhat.
We're trying to force her inthese boxes without any support,
right Like she has limits as towhat she can handle and she
needed extra support and extracare that we just weren't able
to give her.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
And I think that's interesting.
Oh sorry.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I was just going to say.
I would love to know, like youknow, just kind of your thoughts
on that and how, as moms, wecan kind of get over that hump
of not being enough.
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I don't know that we ever fully get over it.
Yeah, I mean, there's thatself-doubt and there's that
guilt all the time.
Yeah, do I question myself Isthis the right facility?
Did I put her in the rightplace?
Are we doing too much?
(37:52):
But there was something you saidactually made me think of a
conversation I had with someoneelse who's in a similar boat and
because mom meaning bio mom anddad hurt them so much that just
the relationship of they don'tfeel safe in.
Just because I am mom and myhusband is dad, just because of
those titles alone, they we'reforcing them into this
relationship that is soterrifying to them.
And that was such a profoundmoment when we had this
conversation because my husbandand I looked at each other like,
oh my goodness, we're sittinghere in these family sessions
(38:15):
going, but we love you, we wantyou home, get better, do the
things, come home.
And she's probably going.
That's really scary.
I don't want to, and for us,home is safe.
Mom and dad is safe.
Why wouldn't you want to behere versus a facility where
(38:38):
you're watching fights happenand getting involved in the
things, like why you know theamount of incident reports I get
?
Speaker 1 (38:50):
You are not alone.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Oh, my goodness, it's been awful.
It's been a really bad weekwith that, but you want to just
scream at them Like we're safe.
Have we not proved that to you?
Like now she's been in our homelonger than she ever was in her
biological family's home, andso you, as a mom, you're like
come on, what is wrong here?
(39:15):
Am I, how am I not enough?
How am I not giving enough?
And the reality is I never can,because of that trauma, if
anything.
Being mom and constantly beingin her face trying to prove
myself is actually making itworse.
(39:35):
And when that clicked this wasjust this week.
So it's not like I have a tonof like, oh wow, then everything
changed.
But I can see how nowapproaching things differently
may make a huge difference andI'm hopeful.
I don't know, but I think thatgoes back to we have that guilt
(39:57):
and we think that we're notenough.
Maybe we just can't be everbecause of who we are.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's so good and one of the
things that I have seen with mydaughter is I she actually we
have built a better relationshipwith her not being in our home
Interesting we have, because ithas allowed me to pour into her
(40:26):
without me being that threat ofbeing that mom, right, yeah, so
she could build thatrelationship with me and
actually I mean I am the onethat she will call.
I mean I would say herattachment to me has grown, it
has solidified.
I'm the one that she calls.
(40:49):
If she's melting down, ifsomething's going on at the
facility and she's upset and sheneeds to be regulated, she will
call me.
And so it's like that bond hasgrown while she's been away.
But I've had to be veryintentional about that right
Making sure.
I think it takes a lot moreintentionality from me to grow
(41:12):
that relationship while she'snot physically with me every day
.
But I mean I think it'sactually been really good for us
to have a little space so thatI can pour into her and build
that relationship from adistance where it's a little bit
safer for her in her mind, andso I know that you stay
(41:36):
connected.
I mean you're talking abouttherapy sessions with her and
all that kind of stuff.
So what are some ways?
If somebody has a child in anout-of-home placement, what are
some ways that they can keepbeing mom, what are some ways
that they can stay connected andkind of build that attachment
while a child's not at home?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
So I think, when we're talking about attachment
issues, I would have told you ayear ago that her and I had a
very strong attachment and wewere very, very close.
I think now, looking back, itwas not a real attachment, it
was a survival attachment.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
I viewed it as very real.
For her, it was transactional.
Having that type ofrelationship with me and acting
like she was very close with memade it safe for her and gave
her that safety.
So when that all came crashingdown, I was devastated.
(42:33):
I'm like it's all been fake.
She wasn't my, but the realityis that I I had to refocus.
No, it was her way of surviving.
In her mind she had to act likethe try and be the favorite and
be the good child and be,because that was how she was
(42:54):
going to remain safe around me,and then she just couldn't keep
up the facade anymore.
So in a way, we're building fromalmost nothing and that has
been very hard and I thinkinitially and I don't know if
you experienced this too for usshe's been gone eight months now
, so we're still I don't knowthat sounds like such a long
(43:19):
time yet we're still so much inthe beginning stages of that
repair work and it's been really, really hard.
It has not been pretty.
It has been very, very ugly, um, and we don't have I, I can't
say that we it's distance hasbeen good for us.
(43:39):
I mean, we're not down eachother's throats, I guess you
know like we're not.
You know there is a safety, butI think that that has been
really hard.
I mean, there are, I would say,more phone calls than not where
I'm getting called and cussedout, yeah, but then there's also
(43:59):
those phone calls wheresomething happened and she needs
to talk to mom right now.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
So it's.
It's interesting.
I'm like wait, you just gotdone cussing me out.
Why now you need me?
Okay, um, but I think that isall a part of that repair work
and that building thatfoundation is okay.
Just because you did that to me, I'm still available when you
need me for the hard things, yes, yes.
(44:27):
Yes, and it's hard and I havehad to set boundaries.
I have, and I have had timeswhere I'm like this was too much
, I need to take a few days, andwe've set those boundaries with
the facility ahead of time.
I'm not just ignoring her.
Hey, you went too far this time.
Mom's got a lot of other stuffgoing on too.
(44:48):
I just I need a break.
We're going to call a timeoutand for 48 hours we're just
going to block no phone callsand then in 48 hours, when
you've had time to kind ofregulate, calm down, then we can
talk again.
So I think setting thoseboundaries of I'm still here for
you you don't get to treat melike that though and that's been
(45:09):
really, really important.
Also, what has been reallyimportant, too, is setting the
boundary.
I don't know why, but she lovesto call during dinner.
That's just the time that isher favorite to call, and so we
kind of had to set that boundaryas well, like, hey, we are
going to focus, cause I wasjumping up every time to answer
that phone call, like, and thenI'm removing myself from the
(45:33):
table, or if it's a rough phonecall, the kids are being exposed
to it, and that's not fair tothe ones who are still here.
They need our attention, theyneed that dinner time as a
family and everything.
So we had to set that boundaryof if you call between these
hours we're not going to answer,we just aren't.
You can call us later and wewill, but we're not going to
(45:54):
answer during these hours.
Does she still call multipletimes a week during those hours?
Absolutely, but it alleviatedthat.
Well, why are you ignoring mycalls Now?
She knows She'll still try, butshe knows that we're not
ignoring the calls.
She knows that after well, shehas a pretty strict time too
that she can't call after.
(46:15):
But you know, after certainhours, if the sorry we're not
answering, if they really needto get a hold of us, it'll be,
it'll come from a different lineand I'll know.
You know that I that I need toanswer.
So just really being upfrontand setting those boundaries has
really alleviated a lot of theanxiety around her end of
(46:38):
maintaining that connection andI didn't really realize that at
first, how much that, how muchanxiety she has because I mean,
get it, she's 13, she's gettingdropped off.
I was there for an hour to signsome paperwork and then I left.
Yeah, and so I'm that's.
That's traumatic for a 13 yearold yeah, very traumatic,
(47:00):
especially for any 13 year old,let alone having the history
that she had.
So having those clearexpectations and those
boundaries, while it's helpingus and protecting our sanity and
our time with the family athome, it's also easing her
anxiety, too.
Around it she knows when shecan call, when we will answer,
(47:22):
when we're going to be available, and I think that's really
important to set those veryclear boundaries.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
I've seen that too.
I have some weekends where I dotraining for the whole weekend
and I let her know ahead of timehey, I'm training this weekend,
so I'm not going to beavailable, and it keeps her mind
from going to a place.
now she still may call right umlike you said, but but it keeps
(47:50):
her mind from going to a placeof they don't want to answer,
like it sets that boundary.
That it's not about that.
It's that I'm because I thinkin our case my daughter quickly
goes to they don't want toanswer, they're rejecting me and
and so letting her know upfront.
This is not what that is rightLike.
(48:11):
I just have times where I'm notavailable.
It doesn't mean that you're notimportant, that I'm not going
to answer your call, that I'mnot going to meet your needs,
but just know that you knowduring this time I can't be
available.
I agree that that has probablyeased some of her anxiety.
(48:31):
On our side, I love thoseboundaries that you're setting
within the structure of yourrelationship, that you're saying
, hey, these are my boundaries,I'm not going to be treated in a
way that is unsafe for me.
And I think it's important forparents to know that you don't
have to accept dangerousbehavior.
(48:56):
You can set boundaries thatmake it safe for you as well.
I think I didn't know thatearly on.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
No, I didn't either.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
I would literally just sit there and take the
abuse like physical abuse andjust be like this is what I'm
supposed to do, like this iswhat it looks like to be here,
no matter what, and I think youknow that is not always a good
(49:26):
thing.
Well, I think I know that someresidential facilities have
different policies, havedifferent you know, and we have
to adhere to whatever theirstuff is.
I know in our case we have beenvery grateful to be able to,
like I can bring in food, I caneven.
We're at a point in our journeywe are a little further along
(49:50):
on our journey than you are andI think in the beginning that it
was a lot harder, that distancewas a lot harder, but we are
like seven years in to doing thehospitals and residentials.
I mean we're on likehospitalization, I don't know
number 40, 50.
(50:11):
I stopped counting at somepoint.
And so you know we have beendoing this for a very long time
and I think in the beginning itwas more like what you're
explaining.
I think now we're in a patternwhere their relationship is
actually growing and gettingbetter, but we also have some
(50:36):
flexibility where she is now,because we are further along in
the process and we have a goodrelationship.
The facility that she's in nowis like it's like her fourth
time there and so they know us,we know the situation and, like
I took her to the movies, shewanted to go see the new Mufasa
(51:01):
movie.
We went and, you know, hung outat the movies and I think some
of those things have been verybeneficial as well, because we
do get to have, even in themidst of her being placed
somewhere else, we do get tohave some normal, more normal
mother-daughter moments.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
Yeah, yeah, very much looking forward to that.
It's hard.
So the facility that we're atright now, it has a phase system
, okay, so you have to.
It's most restricted in phaseone.
Then you kind of graduate andthe restrictions become less.
We're still in phase one yeahafter eight months.
(51:39):
So she's not able it's not, Imean she can't, she has to prove
that she can be safe to leavethe facility.
Sure, and we're not there yet.
So those are times that I and Ikind of try and dangle the
carrot, like we can do thesethings if you just do the work.
And we're just not there yet.
So I'm very excited.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
A lot of times, like those carrots can actually be,
like our kids can sabotagethemselves because they have in
their mind that they're not evergoing to get there, you know,
and so it just creates a veryodd dynamic, but I'll give you
hope those stages do.
They do come to where you knowyou're able to have more
(52:25):
flexibility, or whatever, towhere you know you're able to
have more flexibility, orwhatever.
Well, one other thing that Iwant to ask is how has having a
child placed outside of the homeimpacted the other kids in the
home?
Um, and your family, yourhusband, your family unit?
The way the family works right,like I it, it changes when a
(52:47):
child is, is not there full time.
So, um, how have you seen thatimpact the other kids in your
home?
Speaker 2 (52:55):
It impact them tremendously.
So we have a very large age gap, um, between our two sets of
siblings.
There is a seven year age gapgap there and the little ones
adored their older sisters likethey adore, adored, as if they
don't still.
They absolutely still adorethem, um, so that has been
(53:20):
really difficult and I thinkthey were young enough when my
oldest was gone and she was onlygone for three months, so they
it didn't impact them in thesame way.
Now, um, my youngest daughterand the one who's in residential
now shared a room.
So they, that was very, veryhard, many tears.
(53:43):
I can't sleep without her here.
Where is she?
When is she coming back?
I mean, they were so bonded andreally had just such a sweet
relationship, even though therewas this huge age gap.
It was just the sweetestrelationship between the two of
them.
So that was very, verydevastating and over time it's
(54:05):
she's just kind of accepted itand she doesn't really ask about
her a whole lot, doesn't, whichis also odd.
I don't know.
I don't know.
She's only six.
You know, she's processingthings in her own way.
Now, my little guy, he was, ohno, it all happened on his
(54:27):
fourth birthday, um, the wholething started on his birthday.
Um, so he was just four whenshe left and that was very, very
difficult for him.
He still, I mean, middle of thenight we'll get up and cry.
I just want her home.
When is she coming home?
Very, very hard on him.
(54:50):
His preschool teacher said heprays for her every day during
his snack time prayer.
So that's hard to hear.
And then obviously, my oldest,that's her biological sister and
she's gone and there's so manylayers to it.
One she went throughresidential too and was like I
(55:13):
did it, I got out and moved on.
What's your problem, right?
So there's that aspect of twowildly different reasons for
going, wildly differentpersonalities to begin with,
like those two could not beanywhere different even though
they're sisters.
So I think there's so manyemotions in our home.
(55:35):
My husband is.
He deals with it in verydifferent ways.
He's absolutely devastated byit.
I think his comes out in alittle bit more in anger.
You know why?
Why weren't we enough and whycan't you come?
Why can't you just do what you?
You haven't laid out?
You have the roadmap, do it andcome home.
(55:57):
Um, so we all have dealt with itin different ways, where for me
it's been more that emotional,the like we talk about the, the
struggles of why wasn't I enough, and then just not having all
of my children here has beenvery hard.
I'm used to doing things forfour kids and now I have three.
(56:18):
I don't have to consider, andit feels wrong to not consider
the one, but I don't have to, sothat has been really, really
challenging.
One thing that has been hugefor us well, really, two things
one, and they go together, butone is really surrounding
ourselves with people whounderstand trauma and the
(56:41):
effects of trauma, not only forthe sake of understanding what
happened with our daughter, butalso understanding that this is
very traumatic for our kids too,on top of their other trauma.
So we got another layer and youthink there should be no more
(57:01):
trauma.
In the adoptive home Well sorry,there's a whole lot right now.
So it's been really hard and wereally have to surround
ourselves.
And in the adaptive home Wellsorry, we just there's a whole
lot right now, so it's it's beenreally hard and we really have
to surround ourselves.
And, in the same aspect, wehave to distance ourselves from
people who don't understand itor who are very judgmental or
are painting an alternatenarrative of what's happening
(57:25):
and we just had to distanceourselves because I'm sorry it's
one of the things that's meright but truly, your words are
so hurtful and we're already soraw that we can't, we just can't
, and that's just been aboundary that we've had just
that too.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great to give parents
permission, you know, really inin that space to do both things
to bring some people close andto let them see, you know the
the raw of what's going on.
You know, making sure that thatthat group is very safe, um,
(58:08):
but also to distance yourselffrom some other influences that
may not be speaking life intoyour, into your family, um, okay
, so I have a question that Ididn't tell you about beforehand
, but just as we're talking, I Iwould love to know, like, if
you could change one thing aboutthe mental health system I have
(58:30):
to choose just one.
Wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (58:37):
We could do a whole series on that.
Amen, amen.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
But if you could change one thing, like, what
would be the biggest thing thatyou would change?
But if you?
Speaker 2 (58:47):
could change one thing like what would be the
biggest thing that you wouldchange?
I think honestly, truly, thatall therapists, anyone who comes
into contact, nurses, doctors,even social workers, police
(59:10):
officers, any paramedics,anybody who is going to come in
contact with someone who hasmental health struggles,
whatever they are, they have tobe trauma informed, they have to
understand the effects oftrauma, because you would think
that that's common sense andthat they all are and they all
would understand it, but it'sactually really rare for
somebody to understand it, andthat is such a disservice to not
(59:32):
only the patients but thefamilies and their caregivers
too.
Speaker 1 (59:36):
Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree, and I was very
surprised about that.
About.
Speaker 2 (59:42):
I was too, I was too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
There is no trauma awareness in those circles.
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
I was too, I was too like in crisis stabilization.
Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
Like how do things go together.
How is this helpful?
How is this helpful, right, andI know that that's a very
little piece of the puzzle, butI think it.
It goes to hey, we're notreally thinking through these
things, like, right, we're justkind of going through the
motions, we're not really beingtrauma informed, we're not
thinking through about what'sbest for these kids and how to
(01:00:28):
set them up for success, how tohelp them heal, but we're just
kind of going through themotions and all of it.
Yeah Well, anna, as we wrap up,what do you, what would you say
, has like, helped you getthrough all of this turmoil and
chaos?
Right, because this is hard,this is hard stuff, this is real
(01:00:52):
hard stuff.
So, what do you lean on?
What do you look to?
Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
I mean, honestly, my faith in God.
That is the only thing that hasgotten us through this.
I truly don't know how anybodycould face the things that we've
had to face without him thereand I think, having to fully
trust that he has a plan in allof this, when it makes zero
(01:01:22):
sense from my perspective, likeum hello, this makes zero sense.
And he does have a plan, though, and I don't understand it and
I don't see it at all.
I can't even remotelycomprehend it.
But there is a plan and I thinkone of the biggest things too
that I've lately reallystruggled with and I was
(01:01:43):
actually just telling a friendthis last night lately really
struggled with, and I wasactually just telling a friend
this last night I can say that Itrust him and and I truly do, I
trust him.
I trust that he is carrying.
I mean, he is carrying usthrough this.
There's no way.
It's not just I trust that hewill.
He is but I think sometimes I'mlosing that hope that he will
(01:02:06):
heal her and that we will seethe other side of this, and that
is something I am reallystruggling with and really
trying to grasp onto.
Is that hope the hope that Iand some people may think that
they're the same, but I cantrust that he's good, while also
being like I'm losing hope thatyou're going to actually fix
(01:02:28):
this and I'm going to see it inmy lifetime, and so that has
been.
I mean, I'm not going to saythat, oh, my walk of faith has
been great and wonderful andeverything's perfect.
But without that and withoutGod carrying our family through
this, I truly don't know wherewe would be.
That has been everything.
Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I do think sometimes that
wrestling is good right, likesometimes those moments, because
those places in our heart ofunbelief are there.
You know, I feel like I live inthe constant posture of I
believe, lord, help my unbelief,because I do, I do trust, I do
(01:03:11):
believe.
But there are still those areas, that kind of pinprick, you
know, do you really in this,like you know this too, so I
love that you put that out there.
Well, anna, I reallyappreciated this conversation
today and I think it's going tobe so helpful for so many
(01:03:31):
parents to not feel alone,because I think a lot of times
when we're facing more escalatedstuff, more elevated behaviors,
I think we can even beyondregular foster care and adoption
aloneness like we.
It goes a step further thatsometimes we feel segregated
(01:03:52):
even within the adoption andfoster care community 100% 100%.
So I appreciate you being heretoday.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you for havingme.
If you know somebody that isfacing similar challenges, would
you send them this episode?
I really desire for foster andadoptive parents to know that
(01:04:15):
they are not alone, that thereare lots of people that are
facing similar challenges.
Let me pray for us as we wrapup today.
Lord God, thank you so much thatwe can come together and talk
about these hard and difficultthings.
Lord, thank you that we canspeak with grace and receive
(01:04:38):
things with grace.
Help us walk in discernment.
Lord, these challenges in ourhome are hard.
Help us to know that we werenever meant to be enough.
We were meant to be dependenton you.
Lord, give parents grace today.
Give them grace today.
Help them cast away all theguilt, all the shame, and just
(01:05:04):
walk in grace.
Lord, you are good.
Comfort us in these challengingmoments.
Be our strength.
Give us discernment how to walkthese paths in obedience to you
and in honor and love to ourkids.
Lord, we are so thankful thatwe don't have to walk this path
alone.
We love you.
(01:05:25):
We trust you In Jesus' name,amen.
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History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.