April 12, 2024 • 55 mins
When the echoes of our past threaten to silence our future, where do we turn for the volume knob? Join me as we unravel the threads of resilience with James and Bear, a couple whose narrative weaves a compelling tapestry of truth and transformation. Our exchange ventures through the poignant power of music, love's unexpected cadences, and the fortitude carved from childhood's harsh landscapes. A reflection on my own journey through the Iran-Iraq war lays bare the tenacity required to reclaim one's story from the shadows of trauma.
Amid the cacophony of today's societal discourse, where do we find the melody of authenticity? In conversation with James, a philosopher and bestselling author, and his partner Bear, we confront the specter of toxic masculinity and the generational chasms that challenge our collective integrity. From the tumultuous waves of personal redemption to the tranquil shores of responsible leadership, our guests share their insights on rewriting the script of one's life. We dissect the critical departures from societal values and the pressing need to redefine masculinity beyond its warped modern iterations, advocating for a return to humility and accountability.
As we navigate the complex symphony of leadership and personal growth, the contributions of both James and Bear resonate with profound clarity. Their partnership underscores the significance of a supportive foundation, a theme echoed in James's latest literary endeavor, "The Business of Redemption." Their stories serve not merely as a beacon for those adrift in the stormy seas of change but as a testament to the transformative power of embracing one's role at the helm. So, lend an ear and perhaps find the harmony in your own narrative, guided by the experiences and wisdom shared within these conversations.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Frame of Reference informed, intelligent
conversations about the issuesand challenges facing everyone
in today's world.
In-depth interviews to help youexpand and inform your frame of
reference.
Now here's your host, raoulLabrèche.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome everyone to another episode of Frame of
Reference Profiles in Leadership.
And I am hyped up, not becauseof just the guests that I have,
that would be enough but I'veactually been drinking green tea
Japanese green tea all morning,long for a virus that I've been
fighting, and I'm so amped upright now on green tea that you
could bring on I think a sumowrestler right now and I would
(00:42):
say bring it, just bring it Okay.
So I think a sumo wrestlerright now and I would say bring
it, just bring it Okay.
So I think we're going to havefun.
My guests today are a powercouple.
If ever there was a powercouple, I have to tell you,
james, I looked at you guys'picture.
You know the headshots thatthey send.
I looked at those and thought,oh wow, I am in for trouble here
Because these people do.
(01:04):
These are people that know howto get what they need to get out
of life and we're going to havea fun time going there.
But, james, I made a New Year'sresolution this year when I
started doing the show again.
I'm not introducing my guestsanymore.
I'm letting my guests introducethemselves because you know you
better than I know.
You Bear knows her bear betterthan I know you.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
So why should I waste a bunch of time reading this
stuff off of a piece of paperwhen I can have you just hit it
with what is the James ArthurRay story.
Well, if you're looking for anintroduction, I'll abbreviate it
.
The James Arthur Ray story iskind of an epic story which
would take some time, but youknow, I think what I'm really
committed to is truth andprinciples and values and
(01:55):
morality, and I think those arevery necessary in today's world.
It's unfortunate that I feellike we've gotten so far away
from those type of things and weneed to come back to center and
so that's.
You know, bershba and I bothare totally committed and she
can speak for herself to helpingpeople come back to center call
(02:17):
that God, call that principle,whatever you want to label it
and to be independent thinkerswhatever you want to label it
and to be independent thinkers.
We're really committed tohelping you become a critical
thinker, an independent thinker,and to be able to think for
yourself beyond the controllingnarrative.
So hopefully that makes senseto you and that's kind of me in
(02:40):
a nutshell.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It totally does, and I was interested too.
One of the things it does sayin your intro is that you're a
philosopher and a consultant.
We're going to get along fine,because I totally resonate with
the idea of we need more peoplethat are willing to think.
Just think.
I'm not asking people to doanything other than take a
(03:02):
moment, step back, reflect onwhat's just been said and then
process it.
And processing it means morethan just saying well, he said
it, so it's got to be true.
You know, I've read it on theweb thing there and it's true.
We have to be able to go deeperthan that, right?
So, bear, how about you?
I've read some fascinatingthings about you in your brief
(03:23):
little biography and I thoughtit is just a miracle that you
are here today.
I have to say that it truly is.
It is Well, both of you,honestly.
But you know, bear, I looked atyour background just as a child
and I think, oh, my Lord, thisis just.
I'm so blessed to have someonelike you come on the show and
talk about your experiences.
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Well, thank you for having me.
Since you put it that way, Iwill say I was a person, I, I.
How would I sum it up?
I say I am an example ofpossibility for someone who's
completely broken.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
To become whole.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
To become whole.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
To become whole, to become newborn, whatever label
you want to put on it, but to beable to start all over, no
matter the traumas that you'veendured throughout your life.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
And I can attest to that.
Yeah For her, on her sake.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yes it's true.
It's true, well, and it's adifficult thing in a country
like I think, ours, where we areso conditioned to having
virtually anything.
You know, I mean, even ourpoorest people are rich by world
, global standards in many cases, but the brokenness that occurs
in our country is no less, Idon't think, any less
significant or less profound.
(04:40):
But you say exactly the rightthing we can overcome, we can
choose to go go onto a differentpath.
You made those choices and it'syou've been blessed by them,
right?
So?
so well, let's, we can get backto that.
All of that is, you know, goingto be an interesting journey in
and of itself, right, but Iwarned you ahead of time, we do
(05:01):
a little bit of my favoritethings.
If I had the money, I would paythe BMI and ASCAP licensing
fees necessary to have JulieAndrews sing right now, so we
could set the mood in a reallyappropriate way.
I don't have that, so I can humit a little bit for you.
It's about the best I can do.
But so, favorite things this isa very Roshaktian thing.
(05:22):
I will throw out something.
Just whatever comes to your mindinitially is what you go with.
If it's wrong, it's wrong.
If it's right, it's right.
If you need to re-clarify,re-clarify, but don't let it be
oh, oh, ah, oh, because then youwill never get anywhere.
So I've had guests do that andit's just like just take a
breath, it's okay.
I'm just asking your favoritecolor.
(05:43):
It's not the, you know anyways,here we go.
So a favorite historicalpersonality?
Ooh, who are you asking you?
Either one, whoever wants to gofirst?
Jeopardy, you can hit the bell.
Ding.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So I, I would, I would have to go with Socrates,
oh, Socrates.
Um, yeah, I'm, I'm a bigadmirer of Socrates.
Oh, socrates.
Yeah, I'm a big admirer ofSocrates.
I mean, I could easily say,plato too, aristotle not as much
.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
See, I had to read Aristotle as a graduate student,
so I'm versed in him, althoughI've honestly forgotten probably
forcefully forgot most of whathe wrote.
But what is it about theSocratic method?
Is that what you enjoy?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Well, yeah, and I get chastised frequently by my
lovely wife for my Socraticmethod.
She constantly.
We have a ritual, raul, everymorning, we have coffee together
and it's sacred.
We don't do anything besides,have coffee and conversation
(06:50):
every single morning and we getinto these deep topics about
life and I will always ask herquestions and she's like well,
just tell me.
I'm like no, because if youtell me, then you own it, it's
yours.
If I tell you you can forget it, then you own it, it's yours.
If I tell you you can forget itor blow it off and um, but it's
fun.
I really, I really do enjoyhelping to individuals ferret
(07:15):
out their own truth and that'spart of that independent
thinking that we talked aboutearlier.
And I also really have a lot ofadmiration for Socrates,
because he was a rebel.
He really went against thegrain, he went against the
(07:36):
common social politicalstructure, which I can relate to
as well, and he paid the pricefor it.
But they, they, they almost lethim off the hook.
If you know the story.
They were going to let him goand and he, he said something
snide in court, couldn't keep itto himself.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah, it was and and um.
So they gave him the hemlockand he didn't fight.
He just drank it, he just tookit and he wasn't afraid of the
hereafter.
So there's a lot more aboutSocrates, but I'm a big admirer
of him.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
You know I'm not a marriage relationship counselor,
but I would posit that yourSocratic method is part of the
reason you have a grizzly bearnext to you, that your Socratic
method is part of the reason youhave a grizzly bear next to you
, because I don't think, if youwant to get rid of that grizzly
bear quality in bear, I thinkmaybe you might want to consider
(08:37):
a different methodology for themorning at least Bear how about
you?
Who's your favorite historicalpersonality?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Ooh, historical personality.
I would have to say right now,for the moment I'm reading about
him, is King David.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Interesting, interesting yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
I find him fascinating.
It's the first time I'mactually reading the story too.
Okay, so it's his.
What do you call it?
Yeah, his belief and his faith,his courage is what resonates
with me.
I find it fascinating.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Well, and again we have to say, or I have to say,
that his wife was Bathsheba andBeersheba I forgot.
Beersheba is a derivation.
I did make that connectionmyself.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I did, I'm sorry, yeah, although we'd have to say
too look at the cost of thatmarriage as well.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, it cost him a lot, but they did produce
Solomon.
That's true, that's true,that's true.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Always a silver lining or a gold one right.
So, no that, no, and I actuallycan identify.
David has always fascinated meas well, because he is well, I
mean, scripture calls him a manafter God's own heart, right so,
and I wondered more and moreabout that.
But you have the reality ofwhat he does, with the power he
(10:04):
has, and then the realization ofwhat he's done and the story of
him with Nathan, and Nathantelling the whole story about
the lamb and whatnot, and thensaying you are that man.
That's, I think, a realizationthat more people need to have
that dark side of us, andrealizing that if given enough
rope, we will hang ourselves andmany, many others if we don't
(10:24):
confront that right.
So true, how about yourfavorite?
I'll do an easy one yourfavorite bird.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Ooh hawk Eagle.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
You had eagle written all over you.
I'm sorry I could have justsaid and if you didn't say eagle
, and if you?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
didn't say eagle.
I'm a Scorpio in astrology andScorpio's highest symbol is an
eagle.
The lower symbol is obviously ascorpion, but the higher symbol
, some might be aware, is aneagle, and I've always been
attracted to eagles, not justbecause I'm a Scorpio, but it's
a symbol of the higher self in alot of the ancient traditions,
(11:06):
as is the hawk, by the way,raven.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
So you should actually come where I live in
Sauk Prairie, wisconsin.
We're.
We're near a, an Eagle watching.
We're an Eagle habitat in thewintertime in particular.
So it's a.
We have bald Eagle watchingdays, in fact, in Sauk Prairie.
So this is, this is the place.
If you're an eagle person, thisis the cat's meow.
How about you Bear?
You have a favorite bird?
Speaker 4 (11:30):
I said hawk, and then you took eagle.
I'll say raven.
I like ravens, ravens, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Said the raven no more, the raven never.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Well, you do have raven-esque hair.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I mean that's obviously a tie-in.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Do you have a favorite type of music?
I do.
I really like.
My musical types have changedover the years, and more so
recently.
I'm very fond and I owe some ofthis to my lovely wife of
smooth jazz.
It's just.
(12:11):
I like jazz and the smoothnessof it.
It's calming.
We play it a lot in our homeand office, which are offices in
our home, and it's it's reallynice.
It sets a nice vibe orenvironment in the home.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Do you have a particular type of jazz?
Are we talking bebop, straightahead?
Fusion is there?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
uh, no, no yeah, yeah , I mean I, I can get into some
of the others too, but but notnot, uh, in volumes.
Okay, you know the smooth jazz,we can play that all day long.
And people come to our home orour office, whichever they're
visiting, and they invariablysay man, the energy in here is
(12:55):
just so nice and that has a lotto do with it.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah, yeah.
My roommate in undergraduateand graduate school first year
was a jazz major, worked on amaster's degree in applied
saxophone, which I didn't evenknow there was such a thing, but
he got it.
And so he was like you listento jazz or you don't listen to
(13:18):
anything at all when we're in aroom and I'm the same way.
It was like one of these formsof music I found and thought,
wow, there's so much here.
So, and everything from youknow Thelonious Monk to you know
gosh, we, what were we?
He was really big into DavidSanborn, so it was more so in
Phil Wood, so all the thesaxophonists and Stan Canton and
(13:40):
all the people that you know.
We're in that kind of classicage of jazz.
So I'll have to come hang outat your office If I'm ever where
you guys live.
I'll just come out, I'll sit inthe corner.
I won't bother any of yourclients or anything, I'll just
sit and just be by myself.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
We have statues of eagles in our house.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I mean real eagles.
Does that count?
That sounds like a good plan.
I like that, Okay.
How Sounds like a good plan.
I like that, Okay.
How about last one?
Is there a favorite memory thatyou have or a favorite thing
that, when you come across it,it just brings you back to a
really well-centered or just areally fond place?
Because I think of, like youknow, people talk about baked
(14:18):
bread.
The smell of baked bread justbrings them back to their mom's
kitchen or something, or or youknow something that just really
resonates deep inside of them.
They don't even necessarilyunderstand it, but it's like,
man, I got to have more of thisin my life.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
What'd you take that?
Because I took the last one.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Oh, um memory.
Well, that's kind of.
My memories are not so.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So it might be a more recent memory.
It doesn't have to be.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Okay, so it might be.
A more recent memory doesn'thave to be okay, so more recent
memories.
I would say, um, yes, there isa song that that I hear that
will take me back to a place ofcenteredness, which is it's just
yeah, I can't even explain thefeeling.
It's almost like being high orsomething.
I don't it's, it's an amazingplace to go to.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, it's nice how we have those things too Right,
and um, and, and sometimes Idon't know if your experience is
this or not, but um, sometimeswhen I try to forcefully create
it, it doesn't work.
But then there are other timeswhere I really need it and it
happens and I feel like, okay,thank you so much, god.
Thank you, just thank you forletting that moment happen right
(15:27):
now and helping me to besensitive to that that it was
happening, right, so, but yeah,all right, all right, you got
time to think there.
You had lots of time to thinkabout something dear well, yeah,
you gotta I had the answer themoment you asked the question.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
My favorite memory is the night that my wife proposed
to me.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Oh, here comes the grizzly again.
I'm going to turn off theviewpoint here for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
It's a really fond memory.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
It's a great story, but anyway, so you knew from
that moment on this was it, itwas just done.
Right, that was.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Yes.
Well, she's a woman who goesafter what she wants and I
wasn't moving quickly enough forher.
I'll tell you.
The quick story is I hadplanned to ask her to marry me
and I had the ring, and I'm ahopeless romantic.
And so I had this big evening,this big gala, and I had a
penthouse suite, you know, inthe top of the strip in Vegas,
(16:37):
and we went out to dinner theweekend prior and we haven't had
a drink for two years.
We don't drink anymore, but weused to drink some wine, not a
lot, but we had a couple ofglasses of wine and I was
sitting there and I it just cameout and I said well, honey, you
know, I, I see us beingtogether for the rest of our
(16:58):
lives.
And she said are you proposingto me?
And I said no, if I wasproposing to you, why would I do
it here?
I want to do it right.
I was going to get down on myknees the whole thing.
And and she goes well, are you,are we going to get married or
not?
And I said I said are youproposing to me?
(17:20):
And she goes yes, I am.
What's the answer?
I said yes to your question.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Oh, how romantic.
Oh, my heart's going flutter,flutter with that.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Yeah, yeah it's so it's so, it's so, Beersabah, and
she gave me the cost of thesuite, and you know I still got
the prize, so anyway.
And you know I still got theprize, so anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
You know, that's probably one of the more
beautiful stories I've everheard.
So it's people being people sowell, I have to ask you about
this because it struck me somuch.
Your biography talks about achildhood that I can't, I just
(18:06):
can't imagine, I just can't.
And I probably a good thingthat I can't, because you had to
live it and it's.
It's gotta be hard and not to I.
I know that you guys are.
You're really your lives, yourmission, your, your work is
about not being trapped in thosemoments.
But I think it's a powerfultrapped in those moments, but I
(18:28):
think it's a powerful, maybeinvictive, if that's the right
word, for people that arethinking their life is just so
awful and, you know, just stuckin that awfulness that can you
explain to people that the awfulplace you were in and how, how,
that you look at that awfulplace from now, from the vantage
point of years later, is thatyeah?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
So I was born in Iran at a time where the actually
there was two things going on.
There was one, the war withIran and Iraq, and there was
also the.
They called it a revolution,but it wasn't a revolution.
It was the Islamic regime thattook over Iran, and when that
(19:07):
happened, they gave a hard timeto anyone who was not of the
Islam faith.
So I was raised in a Baha'ifamily.
So they gave the Baha'is andthe Jews and the Christians a
very hard time, a very hard time.
What I mean by that is thatthey would throw them in prison,
they would rape the women.
I mean it was a mess, and sothat was going on.
(19:31):
And then there was also a wargoing on with Iran and Iraq, and
one of my first, a few of myfirst childhood memories one was
bombs being dropped in ourneighborhood.
That was norm.
You hear gunshots at night,sirens going off, bombs being
dropped, one being as close as acouple of houses down from us,
(19:54):
the other being that themilitary came, knocked down our
door in the middle of the night,just ripped my dad out of my
arms and threw him in prison.
And when you go to prison there, you pretty much don't.
The thought is that he's notcoming back.
That's it, it's done.
How old were you the first timeit happened?
Because coming back, that's it,it's done.
How old were you the first timeit happened?
Because it happened a couple oftimes.
(20:15):
The first time it happened, Ibelieve I was three years old.
The second time it happened, Iwas either five or six years old
, and the reason the second timeit happened was we were going
to leave the country, and youcan't just leave, you have to
escape.
So my father thought let me gofirst and create a life here in
(20:37):
the States and then I'll bringthe rest of the family.
Well, he got caught.
He got caught and thrown inprison and thankfully he still
made it through.
And when he came out, we alldecided to leave together as a
family out.
We all decided to leavetogether as a family.
Now, this time I'm beingprobably seven years old.
(20:58):
So we had to.
And how you did it?
There was you find someone andyou pay them and they smuggle
you out of the country because,yeah, and if you get caught, you
you know you die.
That's basically what you'rerisking.
And so we did that.
And there, when you pay thesepeople.
First of all, you don't knowwho these people are and there's
(21:18):
a lot of things going on there,like human trafficking, sex
trafficking, all that.
And I remember the second stopfrom this person that was
transporting us from our stopswe had three, four different
stops within the desert and hetook us for a ride for hours
(21:41):
like we were lost, but he hadother plans.
We didn't have any water.
We totally dehydrated, no food,my mom was passed out, all the
brother was passed out, and mydad kept telling me you know,
you need to stay awake.
It's important, talk to yourbrother, make sure that he stays
awake, because this guy hadsomething else planned for us
(22:02):
and thankfully, the Turkishpolice pulled us over and he had
water.
He gave us water.
I'll never forget that water,the drink us water.
I'll never forget that water,the drink of water.
And I remember I was juststanding there staring at him,
hopeless, hoping that you know,asking for help with my eyes or
(22:23):
something, because he lookeddown at me and he just he was
staring back and he's like youknow what.
He decided to escort us to ournext stop in Turkey, turkey,
which he saved our lives prettymuch, and from there we had to
live in pakistan for a coupleyears so that we could get our
visas and come to the states.
And you know, living inpakistan was we slept on the
(22:48):
floor, it was a mess, it's notsomething.
So when you come to the stateswhen we came to the states, it
was kind of like oh, now we can,it's, it's safe.
You know you could go outside,you could sleep at night and not
worry about bombs or people, amilitary coming in and you know
doing things right, so right.
(23:11):
You have a appreciation forfreedom, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And then this happened.
Well, this happened over aseries of time.
Some of the other stuff I readabout in terms of the lifestyle
choices that you made initially,which obviously the trauma
reaction, right and the you knowthe, the adult maturity or
whatever you call it, thefaculties to be able to say no,
this isn't the right way to go.
(23:36):
I you know that that makessense, but when, if you were
talking to somebody right nowthat has has a life, that
they're saying why me?
Right, that that question getsasked a lot, what?
What would your first words beto a person that's saying why me
?
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Why is this horrible life have to happen to me?
Well, I would say, yeah, that'sa tough question to answer, but
in the ultimate sense, I wouldsay why not you?
In the ultimate sense, I wouldsay it's these very things that
gives you the capacity to beable to experience something far
greater.
Because if you don't have thedepths, let's call it hell from
(24:17):
hell.
How can you know somethingthat's amazing or close to God?
You can't, because there is noreference.
You can't compare Right and the, the.
And I understand it, becausewhen you come from traumas of
whether you know, I've had thosetraumas with my child and then
getting into drugs, and thenalcohol and the addiction and
(24:40):
substance abuse and all that andthere's other people who
experience sexual abuse and allthose things, these things, what
happens?
It scars us.
Now, what I had to do was Iliterally had to go back and I
worked on all of these traumasto heal them, because the
(25:04):
reaction it was having was theactions I was taking.
For example, I smokedcigarettes for 24 years, I did
all kinds of drugs and I dranktons of alcohol because of the
addictive personality, becausethere was this pain inside that
nothing would quench it, nothingwould save me from it.
So I started.
(25:26):
The cause was you know thetraumas, I didn't know that, and
the effects were the cigarettes, alcohol and drugs.
So then, when I took all thoseaway, then I started dealing
with what I was suppressing frombefore and little by little and
you got to work at it, becauseit's not easy, it's hard work
Little by little I healed eachtrauma and went through it with
(25:48):
James' help, leech trauma andwent through it with James's
help and and it's possible forsomeone who comes from a broken
background like that to be ableto live from a new perspective,
completely new person, and notbe your, not be attached to your
experiences.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Right, yeah Right, not be in love.
I think sometimes there is alittle bit of a I'm in love with
my misery, right.
It's such a such a comfortablerelationship that to, to you
know, break that relationship.
It's the only relationshipsometimes I think people have.
It's the only relationship theytrust because they know where
it goes Right.
(26:27):
It's a risky thing.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
It's a risky thing In some cases.
You know, there's a concept inpsychology called secondary gain
, and you're probably, maybe,familiar with this, but in some
cases it gives us a convenientexcuse to not take
responsibility.
Well, you know, I'm, I'm alittle demon.
And why should I not be?
(26:48):
Because look at the demonicthings I've been through and the
reality is, yes, you've beenthrough demonic things and, yes,
you are a demon, and yet that'snot who you really are.
And if you're willing to takeresponsibility and do the work,
then you can step into your trueself.
Right, but it does take work.
(27:10):
I mean, we've been together 11years and it's um, she's, she's
worked diligently.
I mean, I, I don't know, I'veworked with, you know, over a
million people from 147countries and and I've never met
anyone that is so committed andhas so much perseverance like
(27:33):
she has.
And that's what it takes.
It's not easy, it's really not.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, if you want it handed to you.
It's not going to be so.
That wraps right into one ofthe first questions.
I have to say too, I love yoursuggested interview questions
because they're things I wouldhave asked anyways, but it's
just nice to see you're alreadysuggesting them.
I don't have to worry aboutgetting into some territory that
you go.
Oh yeah, I wish you wouldn'thave asked about that or get
(27:59):
ticked or something.
But you have a book out.
You actually have a number ofbooks.
That was part of what we didn'ttalk about in your intro is
that you're a bestselling author, a New York Times bestselling
author.
So no slouch task there.
We're not talking to some guy.
Yeah, he's got the IndianaSouth State of Indiana
bestsellers list.
Oh, wow, yeah, which means youbought a bunch of copies
(28:24):
yourself.
That's right, right in mygarage.
Right right, Anybody can be abestseller now, but the books
that you were known for up untilthis time, I think, seemed to
be more kind of self-help booksI guess I'd call them.
But your latest one is calledthe Business of Redemption.
I thought that was aninteresting title, but what
(28:46):
exactly does that mean?
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I suspect it has something to do with exactly
what Merceabah has been throughthe business of redemption right
, it does, and what I've beenthrough and that's what brought
us together and literallyallowed her and I say this with
absolute, literal intentions shesaved my life Because, if you
(29:13):
know my story, I went to thepeak of my profession, you know
I had everything you couldimagine Larry King, oprah,
best-selling book, you know Inc500 company, all those things
and then lost it all in aheartbeat in a horrible accident
in Sedona, arizona, in 2009.
(29:35):
And ended up, you know and ifyou want to get into the details
, we can get into them but endedup I talk about all of this in
the business of redemption isended up in a horrible accident,
lost it all and ended up goingto prison for two years for
negligence, because three peopleactually lost their lives in a
(29:59):
sweat lodge that I wasconducting, broke my heart, and
so I came out in 2013 and I was54 years of age and I was in
horrible physical condition, hadperiodontal disease.
I was alone.
I didn't know her, yet we metin 2013.
(30:20):
I was homeless and I was $20million in debt, and so you know
where do you go at that point,and so I had to dig deep and I
realized I really neededredemption, and I believe and
I'll define that clearly in justa moment, but I will say with
(30:43):
conviction that our countryneeds redemption, our world
needs redemption, every one ofus needs redemption.
What does that mean?
We hear that a lot in spiritualcircles, which I'm totally in
alignment with.
And yet, if you look up thetrue definition of redemption,
it is to gain or regainsomething by paying the price.
(31:03):
And so if you, as a viewertoday, need to gain something
you've never had, then you needredemption.
If you need to regain somethingyou once had but you lost, then
redemption is your answer.
And here's the key, though bypaying the price, because
there's always a price for theprize, and the bigger the prize
(31:26):
you're going after, the biggerthe price you must pay.
That's just how it works.
And so bigger the price youmust pay.
That's just how it works.
And so so, as I stood there inthe desert and realized I was in
desperate need of redemption, Irealized I had to really
remember who I was.
I had to get my head onstraight, I had to get my heart
in the right place I had.
(31:47):
I had to think about who was Igoing to be.
I call this version of me James3.0, which implies there's a
2.0 and a 1.0.
And those you know, we talkedabout 16.7.
As a 16.7, I've had someprevious crash and burns, and
that's part of our path in thislifetime from a mystical
(32:09):
perspective, in this lifetimefrom a mystical perspective.
And so, anyway, that's what Italk about in the business of
redemption is the entire storyof what I did while I was in
prison, my entire journey thereand what I did after I came out
and my climb back to I'm.
(32:30):
Obviously, today, the debt isfully retired.
I'm great, I'm super grateful.
I'm in great health and fitness, maybe the best health and
fitness of my life.
I'm not alone anymore.
You know, I'm married to themost amazing woman on the planet
and I'm not homeless.
We've got a beautiful home inHenderson, nevada, and so, again
, what I would say to you, muchlike similar to Beersheba, if
(32:54):
you're struggling today, which alot of people are, you know
there is redemption, there isthe God-given potential within
you to take your power back andyou have to remember, first and
foremost, who you are and thenyou have to continually remind
yourself of that daily.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
You know I keep listening to you and I apologize
.
My brain keeps coming up withthis question.
You talk about it in your bookright at the very beginning, the
why me question.
And yet one question I neversee, and maybe I haven't read
far enough in the book, so Iapologize for that.
But one question I never, or oneassertion I never hear you say
or read you say is it's not myfault, and that, to me, is a
(33:38):
critical thing today, especiallywith our political leadership,
we have so much of this it's notmy fault mentality that, as
long as that's part of ourpsyche and part of our you know
strategy for dealing with theworld around us, I don't really
care anymore.
You know, if you can't acceptresponsibility for your part in
(33:59):
it.
I mean the world, the nation,our communities the way they are
right now.
It is all of our fault and we,we either have to fess up to
that and say, all right, whatpart did I play in this?
And then confront it, or wecontinue to live in denial,
which denial is not just a riverin Egypt right, it's, it's, it
(34:20):
is a real thing, that was myline, oh sorry.
I had to be.
I knew it was coming.
I needed to get it out therequickly.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
I need to be the witty host.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yeah, this is the way it works, you know you're.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
You're so spot on I, you know, the border is not my
problem, it's the problem of thepresident.
That was three years ago.
Please, I mean please, allright.
Um, what I talk about inredemption is taking absolute
responsibility.
Absolute, and I mean thatliterally, because I've been
(35:00):
really blessed to have somegreat teachers.
One of them was a kahuna, whichis a sacred teacher in the huna
tradition out of the SouthPacific, and he told me you know
, to take absoluteresponsibility for every single
thing in my life.
For instance, if I don't likewho's in office, well, to your
(35:24):
point, how did I contribute tothat?
You know, if I don't likewhat's going on in our country,
how did I contribute to that?
And it's very empowering.
Some of the things seem to be astretch, you know, I don't know
that I can take responsibilityfor that, james.
Well, just pretend like you can.
And if you come from thatperspective, it's a very
(35:46):
empowering thought experiment,because when you take absolute
responsibility for everything inyour life, then you have the
capability to change it.
As long as you're playing thevictim or pointing the finger,
you're going to stay the victimand you don't have the
capability to change it, and Ifind too, in my relationships in
particular, I get distracted byother people's dilemmas.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
you know other people's well, you should be
doing this and that.
That, to me, is, um, well, Ihave a lot of theater background
and to me that's the same thingas an actor that's worried
about another actor's lines.
You know that's the quickestway to forget your lines.
You know, it's just.
I hope they don't blow this.
Oh, my God, they blew the cross.
You know that's that's, that'sjust a surefire way to kill your
play, right?
(36:32):
Do you find that to be true?
In the consulting that you do,that people have to stop
focusing on, yeah, see what theydo, see what they're doing, and
that takes the focus off theinner journey that we have to be
on, which is, yeah, but whatabout you?
Don't worry about the speck ofdust over there, worry about the
log over here.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yeah, very wise teacher said that, the speck of
dust, the log over here.
So, yeah, very wise teachersaid that, um, the log in your
own eye, um, and and and yes, I,we find that all the time.
And in fact, um, you know, it'salmost like that's an, it's an
epidemic.
You know, what do other peoplethink?
Well, let me tell you whatother people think.
(37:11):
They don't.
They don't think, you know,they don't, they don't really
think about you.
If they, they have so muchgoing on for themselves they
don't have the time or thebandwidth to be concerned really
about you.
And if they're a troll orthey're just hating on you, then
get a life, I mean seriously.
And get a life, I meanseriously, get a life.
(37:31):
And other people's opinions cankeep you stuck, and I see this
all the time, you know.
I'll give you a simple example,mundane example the giant, the
(37:55):
business giant, who goes home tohis parents or her parents'
home, and the parents still havethem frozen in time as a child
and they treat them like a child.
And I've seen those giants,those intellectual giants,
become children with theirparents, you know, because other
people's opinions of you cankeep you stuck and you have to,
you know, I find so many peopleselling out their morality,
selling out their truth, sellingout their capabilities, because
(38:18):
they're so afraid that they'regoing to ruffle some feathers.
Well, I believe and it's a loteasier for me, raul, because I
got knocked down hard, you know,crucified by the media,
literally crucified, and boy ithurt.
(38:42):
But now I'm kind of Teflon,because after you get called so
many names and get so manyarrows coming at you, then it's
kind of like whatever you knowand and, and I think we all have
to develop that, and it reallypains me to see so many people
selling out their truth andselling out what they believe
(39:05):
because they don't want toruffle feathers.
And what I'll just say inclosing on this topic is if
you're not making waves, you'replaying in the shallow end of
the pool period.
You know you should be makingwaves.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, there's a Japanese proverb, something to
the effect of the nail thatstands out gets hammered first.
So, and there's a lot of truthto that.
So in America today, bear, as aperson who's relatively new
American right compared to thoseof us that are in our 60s I
(39:40):
think I'm 63.
Yeah, okay, and have beenexperiencing America for a long
time.
So what's the key right now?
If you were to say, I've talkedwith holistic medicine people,
and they talk about how ourpharmaco industry is so
interested in treating thesymptoms that they don't get at
(40:02):
the cause of what's going on.
And I see that happening a lotfrom my perspective in our
country right now, that we'relooking at symptoms instead of
looking at the cause.
And I think that a lot of itcomes to one of the questions
you have about the softening ofthe men in the world today and
toxic masculinity.
(40:23):
And I thankfully live with twowomen, my daughter and my wife,
that are both intellectualsuperiors to me in many, many
ways.
Wife, that are, you know, bothintellectual superiors to me in
many, many ways and call me onmy baloney really quickly, and
sometimes I listen and learn andgo, thank you so much.
And sometimes I go, oh, yeah,so, and you can imagine how well
(40:44):
those times go.
So, and it is always.
But I, one of the things thathas come up is that toxic max
masculine masculinity, and I seethat in in the world and in our
country, and particularly uh,and globally.
I mean, you look at, you knowpeople like Putin and you know,
uh, jing Chao Bing and theirtoxic masculinity definitions
(41:08):
right there.
What do you say to people thatare looking at a world that
needs softened men and to getthem to say that's not a
softened man, that's a real man,that's a person that sees a
higher calling for men and womeneverywhere.
Is there a cure for that?
What's the cause of that?
(41:28):
That we see it so stupidly?
Speaker 4 (41:33):
We were talking about that this morning.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Over coffee oh.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
That was our topic.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Oh, excellent.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Yeah, what we come up with was the cause.
Well, I was telling him I'venoticed.
Okay, so if I were to look atGen Xers and below, so Gen Xers,
millennials, and is it Gen Zs?
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Z yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
So what from?
I don't know the age range, isit 50 and below, or 55 and below
, I'm not sure?
But Gen Xers are likeborderline millennials, they
don't.
They're um, they're kind oftoxic masculinity.
Yeah.
So they're angry abouteverything, they're angry about
(42:15):
it, but they still have a littlebit, I think, of masculinity.
But then you have the babyboomers, I believe.
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Well, that's my generation, so your guys is
generation and I look at thatgeneration.
I say those are men we need.
These were men.
This is what men used to looklike.
Hey, I like her.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
No wonder you married her so yeah.
What is that man?
What I mean?
I I feel like you know the thewhole thing going on right now
with Trump and the insurrectionis it an insurrection?
I would have more respect forthem if they would stand up and
say damn right, it was aninsurrection.
We were standing up to thiscountry once and for all and
blah, blah, blah.
(43:04):
I mean that would be refreshing.
But instead of oh it was, itwas just a demonstration, we
were just protesting, our freerights speech and I'm like,
really Really, so we can't evenhave the integrity to call
ourselves what we are, which ismessed up, right.
I don't get where that?
(43:26):
When does it stop?
When do we start?
You know, we used to be great.
We are.
America has so much potentialfor being great.
We are squandering it instupidity and ignorance and
denial and lack of humility.
You have a story that I thinktypifies that right.
(43:47):
Everything is stripped awayfrom you In prison.
You know that is about as lowas I think anyone can go right.
Story that that, I think,typifies that right.
Everything is stripped awayfrom you in prison.
You know that that is about aslow as I think anyone can go
right, and yet you came out ofit without going.
Not my fault, not my fault.
See, I was absolved from it.
It's not that you came out ofit going.
No, I'm, I'm gonna rectify this.
How does america do that?
Speaker 3 (44:08):
why don't you talk about some of the qualities
since you started this?
Some of the qualities of a trueman.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
Well, I would say one of the things that I see that's
missing.
If I were to look at itgenerationally between me and
him, I would say I'm amillennial, so I'm 43.
So I'm and he is a baby.
So what we were missing was theum the family unit.
There were growing up, therewas no family.
(44:37):
The tv raised, raised me, andhe had a family unit.
Um one thing america had, uhhad, I say it's still kind of
some people still have it is umvalues and their and the
constitution which is in god, itwas that that's what it is is
principles and values and familyand structures and rules,
(45:01):
morality, morality, virtue,right, yeah, in places where
yeah yes, and when?
places, when these things nolonger are an effect or account
and anything goes.
Oh I, one day I could be a man,next day I could be a woman, I
could be whatever I want.
I feel like I'm a cat.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
I mean what?
Is a woman.
What is?
A woman.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
When you don't believe in anything, you'll
believe in anything.
Pretty much, You'll believe ineverything.
So, and what I see happeninghere is kind of and they, what
do you call it?
They clothe it in its democracy.
Well, okay, inclusion Inclusion,democracy, inclusion and you
(45:45):
know well that's what they werepreaching in Iran right before
the Islamic public took over.
So what I see happening rightin front of my eyes here in the
United States is the same thingthat happened in Iran, and it
was all in the name of democracy.
And then, when it came, theregime, whatever you want to
(46:06):
call it and the Ayatollah cameout the very first day in power
he said OK, from this day forth,the women have to start
covering their head andeveryone's going wait, what?
What happened?
And that was it, and that'swhat's happening here.
I mean there's people thatspeak out the truth and they're
getting thrown in prison in theUnited States.
(46:26):
Right, I mean that's crazy.
Without a trial, without atrial, I mean that's scary.
Yeah, so that's scary.
They broke the family unit, theytook the father out of the
house, the mother out of thehouse, and they said no woman
needs to be like a man and workno, she doesn't.
You know, to be a mom is verynoble and it's a job.
(46:52):
It's a very important job.
It's not demeaning, it's themost important job a person
could have is to be a mother,because you are raising the
future.
Yeah, but they diminish that.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
It's been very much minimized and I think bears was
correct, the, the shattering ofthe family unit.
If you look at and I'm writingabout this in my new book which
I'm working on right now but ifyou look at how the hierarchy
used to be, it was God and thenit was family and then it was
church and then it was maybecommunity school system and it
(47:27):
was maybe community schoolsystem and we could argue maybe
they shuffle around a bit butwhere there's no argument is the
pinnacle of the hierarchy wasGod and in a secular society
which is defined, secular isdefined as religious
indifference or skepticism.
We've gotten so far away fromthat.
(47:52):
Let's call it a verticalrelationship, even though that's
a metaphor, and so it leaves usat Flatland, it leaves us with
a horizontal relationship andthe only thing we have and
Beerswood didn't have a familyunit, my family, my dad was home
every night for dinner.
My mom was home when I got homefrom school.
We ate every dinner togetherand we talked with each other
and debriefed our day and thatwas the norm.
(48:15):
Well, not anymore, you know.
And so, unfortunately, whathappens?
Well, beersipa happened.
She didn't have that structure.
So she goes out into herneighborhood, which was not the
best of environments, and startsinteracting with gang members
and people who are doing drugs.
And now this becomes the normand I build my ethics based upon
(48:39):
what I see around me, versusthese fundamental principles
that are moral and right andtrue, that are innate, innocent
unless we suppress them and moveaway from them.
I don't think there's such athing.
I would have to disagree withyou, respectfully, on Putin.
(49:00):
I don't think there's such athing as toxic masculinity.
Well, there might be.
Well, there might be.
Yeah, andrew Tate, or some ofthose you know.
I mean, that's machismo, that'snot a man, I'm sorry.
You know, macho is notmasculinity, because if you're a
(49:24):
man, you don't have to prove it, you just are it.
And so for me, you're, you'vegot integrity, you've got morals
.
You, you want to take care ofyour, of your woman and your
family, and and you can, you canshare your feelings with your
woman and your family.
You don't stuff them and say,oh, that's not manly.
(49:47):
You know, um, I was reallyblessed.
I grew up with a father most inmy genre or in my age bracket,
and maybe you too were taughtmen don't cry.
Well, my dad told me, men cando whatever they want to do, and
I was.
I was blessed, you know, and alot of us were taught walk it
(50:09):
off, bucko.
What do you complain?
Speaker 2 (50:11):
about.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
Now that's needed when you look at may I may I use
the term snowflake, Right whenyou?
Look at the snowflakes.
Who, oh, I can't work eighthours a day.
No, I mean please, please.
You know I'm, I've been in thisbody six years and I work 12
hours a day.
Right, so come whining to me,get your butt out there and get
(50:35):
busy, um, and do something withyour fair fair.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Well, you know, and it's difficult, we taught you
know.
And I shouldn't bring, uh, Iguess, national figures into the
equation, because thedifficulty with all of that
anybody that's in that realm isthe media defines the narrative
for how those folks aredescribed, right?
So we don't really know, wecan't know, I'm not.
You know what's the MarkTwain's old saying you know,
(51:00):
believe, believe half of whatyou see and nothing of what you
hear.
You know.
So, in there, it is so easy tohave our perceptions of anyone
you know narrated for us bysomeone else and again not think
about it, right?
So, because you have to, Ireally am thankful for my
background in theater, because Iplayed a lot of characters that
were, quote, unquote,despicable people.
(51:23):
You know, they were folks thatyou would not like if you ran
into them at a cocktail party.
And the reality is that whenyou're playing any character,
you have to understand thatnobody sees themselves as an
antagonist.
They just don't.
Everybody has a reason.
Right, I'm a complete jerk.
Because, if I'm not a completejerk, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, or because of what happens, I'm the protagonist.
(51:46):
Right, I'm the protagonist.
Right right, what are youtalking about?
These happens.
I'm the protagonist.
I'm the protagonist, Rightright.
These people, these people arethe antagonists, because you
know they ask stupid questionsin the morning.
Why can't they be more likecoffee?
Coffee doesn't ask stupidquestions in the morning.
So, yeah, I mean there's.
So I, you have to be, I know wehave to be careful of that and
we we are.
I think part of the problemwith the softening of men or the
(52:06):
whatever all is, is that we'reallowing other people to define
that for us.
Um is there, is there a driver?
And we're running out of time.
I'm really sorry about that.
I'm looking at the clock.
You're going.
We have to have an easyquestion at the end here that we
can wrap up with um, is there,is there a really powerful
driver in human behavior?
And that you think any personcould take and say I'm going to
(52:28):
really just work on this thing,this behavior, this attitude.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
Yes, I would say for men, if we're talking about men,
a couple of things workout, youknow it's important.
God gave you a body and yourbody needs to be strong and
flexible.
Workout that takes discipline.
Number two stay away from porn.
You know.
I mean, if you look at, if youlook at current research, a lot
(52:55):
of our younger men don't evencare to have sex anymore.
They don't.
Their, their sperm count is inthe tank and this is all
documented and that you knowthat's a driver of the male, the
masculinity, and so stay awayfrom that.
It's going to ruin your futurerelationships.
And work out and then studyeternal principles.
(53:19):
You know, as a true philosopherwould say study eternal truth.
Start at the great masters,because when you, when we're we
have a group that gets togetherevery other Thursday night and
we're studying the greatphilosophers right now and when
you look at all the greatphilosophers, from Socrates to
Plato, um to to um, plotinus, toBuddha, any of them they talk
(53:43):
about fundamental principles andtruths.
Be honest, tell the truth, bemoral, be principled.
Stay away from drugs, stay awayfrom alcohol.
You know all those types ofthings.
It's pretty simple.
It's just simply not applied.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
And there you have it .
So, folks, my guests today havebeen James Earl Ray and
Beersheba Beersheba Ray Bear.
I'm just going to have to staywith Bear Beersheba Beersheba
Ray Bear.
I have to stay with bearBeersheba.
But James is a New York Timesbestselling author, philosopher,
consultant, worked with over amillion people.
You said it yourself A millionpeople in 147 countries.
(54:21):
I thought you said not 146.
So you've added a countrysomewhere along the line here.
But author of many books thatare wonderful, I would
particularly put people towardsyour latest book, the Business
of Redemption.
I've just read the first coupleof chapters and already
thinking why didn't I start thisearlier, before interview?
I'd have much more intelligentquestions to ask.
(54:42):
And, beersaba, thank you somuch for being alongside your
wonderful man there and forsupporting him.
So thank you both for your time.
I hope we can maybe join useach other again at some point
in the future and talk some more, seeing as we got that much.
That would be wonderful.
We would enjoy that.
Speaker 4 (54:58):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
Thank you so much, both of you, and thank you folks
for listening to.
Frame of Reference Profiles inLeadership.
I've given you a great profilein leadership here, both the
male and the female side of it,so please take it and run with
it.
Welcome to Frame of Reference informed, intelligent
conversations about the issuesand challenges facing everyone
in today's world.
In-depth interviews to help youexpand and inform your frame of
reference.
Now here's your host, raoulLabrèche.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome everyone to another episode of Frame of
Reference Profiles in Leadership.
And I am hyped up, not becauseof just the guests that I have,
that would be enough but I'veactually been drinking green tea
Japanese green tea all morning,long for a virus that I've been
fighting, and I'm so amped upright now on green tea that you
could bring on I think a sumowrestler right now and I would
(00:42):
say bring it, just bring it Okay.
So I think a sumo wrestlerright now and I would say bring
it, just bring it Okay.
So I think we're going to havefun.
My guests today are a powercouple.
If ever there was a powercouple, I have to tell you,
james, I looked at you guys'picture.
You know the headshots thatthey send.
I looked at those and thought,oh wow, I am in for trouble here
Because these people do.
(01:04):
These are people that know howto get what they need to get out
of life and we're going to havea fun time going there.
But, james, I made a New Year'sresolution this year when I
started doing the show again.
I'm not introducing my guestsanymore.
I'm letting my guests introducethemselves because you know you
better than I know.
You Bear knows her bear betterthan I know you.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
So why should I waste a bunch of time reading this
stuff off of a piece of paperwhen I can have you just hit it
with what is the James ArthurRay story.
Well, if you're looking for anintroduction, I'll abbreviate it
.
The James Arthur Ray story iskind of an epic story which
would take some time, but youknow, I think what I'm really
committed to is truth andprinciples and values and
(01:55):
morality, and I think those arevery necessary in today's world.
It's unfortunate that I feellike we've gotten so far away
from those type of things and weneed to come back to center and
so that's.
You know, bershba and I bothare totally committed and she
can speak for herself to helpingpeople come back to center call
(02:17):
that God, call that principle,whatever you want to label it
and to be independent thinkerswhatever you want to label it
and to be independent thinkers.
We're really committed tohelping you become a critical
thinker, an independent thinker,and to be able to think for
yourself beyond the controllingnarrative.
So hopefully that makes senseto you and that's kind of me in
(02:40):
a nutshell.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It totally does, and I was interested too.
One of the things it does sayin your intro is that you're a
philosopher and a consultant.
We're going to get along fine,because I totally resonate with
the idea of we need more peoplethat are willing to think.
Just think.
I'm not asking people to doanything other than take a
(03:02):
moment, step back, reflect onwhat's just been said and then
process it.
And processing it means morethan just saying well, he said
it, so it's got to be true.
You know, I've read it on theweb thing there and it's true.
We have to be able to go deeperthan that, right?
So, bear, how about you?
I've read some fascinatingthings about you in your brief
(03:23):
little biography and I thoughtit is just a miracle that you
are here today.
I have to say that it truly is.
It is Well, both of you,honestly.
But you know, bear, I looked atyour background just as a child
and I think, oh, my Lord, thisis just.
I'm so blessed to have someonelike you come on the show and
talk about your experiences.
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Well, thank you for having me.
Since you put it that way, Iwill say I was a person, I, I.
How would I sum it up?
I say I am an example ofpossibility for someone who's
completely broken.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
To become whole.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
To become whole.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
To become whole, to become newborn, whatever label
you want to put on it, but to beable to start all over, no
matter the traumas that you'veendured throughout your life.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
And I can attest to that.
Yeah For her, on her sake.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yes it's true.
It's true, well, and it's adifficult thing in a country
like I think, ours, where we areso conditioned to having
virtually anything.
You know, I mean, even ourpoorest people are rich by world
, global standards in many cases, but the brokenness that occurs
in our country is no less, Idon't think, any less
significant or less profound.
(04:40):
But you say exactly the rightthing we can overcome, we can
choose to go go onto a differentpath.
You made those choices and it'syou've been blessed by them,
right?
So?
so well, let's, we can get backto that.
All of that is, you know, goingto be an interesting journey in
and of itself, right, but Iwarned you ahead of time, we do
(05:01):
a little bit of my favoritethings.
If I had the money, I would paythe BMI and ASCAP licensing
fees necessary to have JulieAndrews sing right now, so we
could set the mood in a reallyappropriate way.
I don't have that, so I can humit a little bit for you.
It's about the best I can do.
But so, favorite things this isa very Roshaktian thing.
(05:22):
I will throw out something.
Just whatever comes to your mindinitially is what you go with.
If it's wrong, it's wrong.
If it's right, it's right.
If you need to re-clarify,re-clarify, but don't let it be
oh, oh, ah, oh, because then youwill never get anywhere.
So I've had guests do that andit's just like just take a
breath, it's okay.
I'm just asking your favoritecolor.
(05:43):
It's not the, you know anyways,here we go.
So a favorite historicalpersonality?
Ooh, who are you asking you?
Either one, whoever wants to gofirst?
Jeopardy, you can hit the bell.
Ding.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
So I, I would, I would have to go with Socrates,
oh, Socrates.
Um, yeah, I'm, I'm a bigadmirer of Socrates.
Oh, socrates.
Yeah, I'm a big admirer ofSocrates.
I mean, I could easily say,plato too, aristotle not as much
.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
See, I had to read Aristotle as a graduate student,
so I'm versed in him, althoughI've honestly forgotten probably
forcefully forgot most of whathe wrote.
But what is it about theSocratic method?
Is that what you enjoy?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Well, yeah, and I get chastised frequently by my
lovely wife for my Socraticmethod.
She constantly.
We have a ritual, raul, everymorning, we have coffee together
and it's sacred.
We don't do anything besides,have coffee and conversation
(06:50):
every single morning and we getinto these deep topics about
life and I will always ask herquestions and she's like well,
just tell me.
I'm like no, because if youtell me, then you own it, it's
yours.
If I tell you you can forget it, then you own it, it's yours.
If I tell you you can forget itor blow it off and um, but it's
fun.
I really, I really do enjoyhelping to individuals ferret
(07:15):
out their own truth and that'spart of that independent
thinking that we talked aboutearlier.
And I also really have a lot ofadmiration for Socrates,
because he was a rebel.
He really went against thegrain, he went against the
(07:36):
common social politicalstructure, which I can relate to
as well, and he paid the pricefor it.
But they, they, they almost lethim off the hook.
If you know the story.
They were going to let him goand and he, he said something
snide in court, couldn't keep itto himself.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah, it was and and um.
So they gave him the hemlockand he didn't fight.
He just drank it, he just tookit and he wasn't afraid of the
hereafter.
So there's a lot more aboutSocrates, but I'm a big admirer
of him.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
You know I'm not a marriage relationship counselor,
but I would posit that yourSocratic method is part of the
reason you have a grizzly bearnext to you, that your Socratic
method is part of the reason youhave a grizzly bear next to you
, because I don't think, if youwant to get rid of that grizzly
bear quality in bear, I thinkmaybe you might want to consider
(08:37):
a different methodology for themorning at least Bear how about
you?
Who's your favorite historicalpersonality?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Ooh, historical personality.
I would have to say right now,for the moment I'm reading about
him, is King David.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Interesting, interesting yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
I find him fascinating.
It's the first time I'mactually reading the story too.
Okay, so it's his.
What do you call it?
Yeah, his belief and his faith,his courage is what resonates
with me.
I find it fascinating.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Well, and again we have to say, or I have to say,
that his wife was Bathsheba andBeersheba I forgot.
Beersheba is a derivation.
I did make that connectionmyself.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I did, I'm sorry, yeah, although we'd have to say
too look at the cost of thatmarriage as well.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, it cost him a lot, but they did produce
Solomon.
That's true, that's true,that's true.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Always a silver lining or a gold one right.
So, no that, no, and I actuallycan identify.
David has always fascinated meas well, because he is well, I
mean, scripture calls him a manafter God's own heart, right so,
and I wondered more and moreabout that.
But you have the reality ofwhat he does, with the power he
(10:04):
has, and then the realization ofwhat he's done and the story of
him with Nathan, and Nathantelling the whole story about
the lamb and whatnot, and thensaying you are that man.
That's, I think, a realizationthat more people need to have
that dark side of us, andrealizing that if given enough
rope, we will hang ourselves andmany, many others if we don't
(10:24):
confront that right.
So true, how about yourfavorite?
I'll do an easy one yourfavorite bird.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Ooh hawk Eagle.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
You had eagle written all over you.
I'm sorry I could have justsaid and if you didn't say eagle
, and if you?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
didn't say eagle.
I'm a Scorpio in astrology andScorpio's highest symbol is an
eagle.
The lower symbol is obviously ascorpion, but the higher symbol
, some might be aware, is aneagle, and I've always been
attracted to eagles, not justbecause I'm a Scorpio, but it's
a symbol of the higher self in alot of the ancient traditions,
(11:06):
as is the hawk, by the way,raven.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
So you should actually come where I live in
Sauk Prairie, wisconsin.
We're.
We're near a, an Eagle watching.
We're an Eagle habitat in thewintertime in particular.
So it's a.
We have bald Eagle watchingdays, in fact, in Sauk Prairie.
So this is, this is the place.
If you're an eagle person, thisis the cat's meow.
How about you Bear?
You have a favorite bird?
Speaker 4 (11:30):
I said hawk, and then you took eagle.
I'll say raven.
I like ravens, ravens, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Said the raven no more, the raven never.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Well, you do have raven-esque hair.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I mean that's obviously a tie-in.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Do you have a favorite type of music?
I do.
I really like.
My musical types have changedover the years, and more so
recently.
I'm very fond and I owe some ofthis to my lovely wife of
smooth jazz.
It's just.
(12:11):
I like jazz and the smoothnessof it.
It's calming.
We play it a lot in our homeand office, which are offices in
our home, and it's it's reallynice.
It sets a nice vibe orenvironment in the home.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Do you have a particular type of jazz?
Are we talking bebop, straightahead?
Fusion is there?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
uh, no, no yeah, yeah , I mean I, I can get into some
of the others too, but but notnot, uh, in volumes.
Okay, you know the smooth jazz,we can play that all day long.
And people come to our home orour office, whichever they're
visiting, and they invariablysay man, the energy in here is
(12:55):
just so nice and that has a lotto do with it.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah, yeah.
My roommate in undergraduateand graduate school first year
was a jazz major, worked on amaster's degree in applied
saxophone, which I didn't evenknow there was such a thing, but
he got it.
And so he was like you listento jazz or you don't listen to
(13:18):
anything at all when we're in aroom and I'm the same way.
It was like one of these formsof music I found and thought,
wow, there's so much here.
So, and everything from youknow Thelonious Monk to you know
gosh, we, what were we?
He was really big into DavidSanborn, so it was more so in
Phil Wood, so all the thesaxophonists and Stan Canton and
(13:40):
all the people that you know.
We're in that kind of classicage of jazz.
So I'll have to come hang outat your office If I'm ever where
you guys live.
I'll just come out, I'll sit inthe corner.
I won't bother any of yourclients or anything, I'll just
sit and just be by myself.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
We have statues of eagles in our house.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
I mean real eagles.
Does that count?
That sounds like a good plan.
I like that, Okay.
How Sounds like a good plan.
I like that, Okay.
How about last one?
Is there a favorite memory thatyou have or a favorite thing
that, when you come across it,it just brings you back to a
really well-centered or just areally fond place?
Because I think of, like youknow, people talk about baked
(14:18):
bread.
The smell of baked bread justbrings them back to their mom's
kitchen or something, or or youknow something that just really
resonates deep inside of them.
They don't even necessarilyunderstand it, but it's like,
man, I got to have more of thisin my life.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
What'd you take that?
Because I took the last one.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Oh, um memory.
Well, that's kind of.
My memories are not so.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So it might be a more recent memory.
It doesn't have to be.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
Okay, so it might be.
A more recent memory doesn'thave to be okay, so more recent
memories.
I would say, um, yes, there isa song that that I hear that
will take me back to a place ofcenteredness, which is it's just
yeah, I can't even explain thefeeling.
It's almost like being high orsomething.
I don't it's, it's an amazingplace to go to.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, it's nice how we have those things too Right,
and um, and, and sometimes Idon't know if your experience is
this or not, but um, sometimeswhen I try to forcefully create
it, it doesn't work.
But then there are other timeswhere I really need it and it
happens and I feel like, okay,thank you so much, god.
Thank you, just thank you forletting that moment happen right
(15:27):
now and helping me to besensitive to that that it was
happening, right, so, but yeah,all right, all right, you got
time to think there.
You had lots of time to thinkabout something dear well, yeah,
you gotta I had the answer themoment you asked the question.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
My favorite memory is the night that my wife proposed
to me.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Oh, here comes the grizzly again.
I'm going to turn off theviewpoint here for a little bit.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
It's a really fond memory.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
It's a great story, but anyway, so you knew from
that moment on this was it, itwas just done.
Right, that was.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Yes.
Well, she's a woman who goesafter what she wants and I
wasn't moving quickly enough forher.
I'll tell you.
The quick story is I hadplanned to ask her to marry me
and I had the ring, and I'm ahopeless romantic.
And so I had this big evening,this big gala, and I had a
penthouse suite, you know, inthe top of the strip in Vegas,
(16:37):
and we went out to dinner theweekend prior and we haven't had
a drink for two years.
We don't drink anymore, but weused to drink some wine, not a
lot, but we had a couple ofglasses of wine and I was
sitting there and I it just cameout and I said well, honey, you
know, I, I see us beingtogether for the rest of our
(16:58):
lives.
And she said are you proposingto me?
And I said no, if I wasproposing to you, why would I do
it here?
I want to do it right.
I was going to get down on myknees the whole thing.
And and she goes well, are you,are we going to get married or
not?
And I said I said are youproposing to me?
(17:20):
And she goes yes, I am.
What's the answer?
I said yes to your question.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Oh, how romantic.
Oh, my heart's going flutter,flutter with that.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Yeah, yeah it's so it's so, it's so, Beersabah, and
she gave me the cost of thesuite, and you know I still got
the prize, so anyway.
And you know I still got theprize, so anyway.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
You know, that's probably one of the more
beautiful stories I've everheard.
So it's people being people sowell, I have to ask you about
this because it struck me somuch.
Your biography talks about achildhood that I can't, I just
(18:06):
can't imagine, I just can't.
And I probably a good thingthat I can't, because you had to
live it and it's.
It's gotta be hard and not to I.
I know that you guys are.
You're really your lives, yourmission, your, your work is
about not being trapped in thosemoments.
But I think it's a powerfultrapped in those moments, but I
(18:28):
think it's a powerful, maybeinvictive, if that's the right
word, for people that arethinking their life is just so
awful and, you know, just stuckin that awfulness that can you
explain to people that the awfulplace you were in and how, how,
that you look at that awfulplace from now, from the vantage
point of years later, is thatyeah?
Speaker 4 (18:46):
So I was born in Iran at a time where the actually
there was two things going on.
There was one, the war withIran and Iraq, and there was
also the.
They called it a revolution,but it wasn't a revolution.
It was the Islamic regime thattook over Iran, and when that
(19:07):
happened, they gave a hard timeto anyone who was not of the
Islam faith.
So I was raised in a Baha'ifamily.
So they gave the Baha'is andthe Jews and the Christians a
very hard time, a very hard time.
What I mean by that is thatthey would throw them in prison,
they would rape the women.
I mean it was a mess, and sothat was going on.
(19:31):
And then there was also a wargoing on with Iran and Iraq, and
one of my first, a few of myfirst childhood memories one was
bombs being dropped in ourneighborhood.
That was norm.
You hear gunshots at night,sirens going off, bombs being
dropped, one being as close as acouple of houses down from us,
(19:54):
the other being that themilitary came, knocked down our
door in the middle of the night,just ripped my dad out of my
arms and threw him in prison.
And when you go to prison there, you pretty much don't.
The thought is that he's notcoming back.
That's it, it's done.
How old were you the first timeit happened?
Because coming back, that's it,it's done.
How old were you the first timeit happened?
Because it happened a couple oftimes.
(20:15):
The first time it happened, Ibelieve I was three years old.
The second time it happened, Iwas either five or six years old
, and the reason the second timeit happened was we were going
to leave the country, and youcan't just leave, you have to
escape.
So my father thought let me gofirst and create a life here in
(20:37):
the States and then I'll bringthe rest of the family.
Well, he got caught.
He got caught and thrown inprison and thankfully he still
made it through.
And when he came out, we alldecided to leave together as a
family out.
We all decided to leavetogether as a family.
Now, this time I'm beingprobably seven years old.
(20:58):
So we had to.
And how you did it?
There was you find someone andyou pay them and they smuggle
you out of the country because,yeah, and if you get caught, you
you know you die.
That's basically what you'rerisking.
And so we did that.
And there, when you pay thesepeople.
First of all, you don't knowwho these people are and there's
(21:18):
a lot of things going on there,like human trafficking, sex
trafficking, all that.
And I remember the second stopfrom this person that was
transporting us from our stopswe had three, four different
stops within the desert and hetook us for a ride for hours
(21:41):
like we were lost, but he hadother plans.
We didn't have any water.
We totally dehydrated, no food,my mom was passed out, all the
brother was passed out, and mydad kept telling me you know,
you need to stay awake.
It's important, talk to yourbrother, make sure that he stays
awake, because this guy hadsomething else planned for us
(22:02):
and thankfully, the Turkishpolice pulled us over and he had
water.
He gave us water.
I'll never forget that water,the drink us water.
I'll never forget that water,the drink of water.
And I remember I was juststanding there staring at him,
hopeless, hoping that you know,asking for help with my eyes or
(22:23):
something, because he lookeddown at me and he just he was
staring back and he's like youknow what.
He decided to escort us to ournext stop in Turkey, turkey,
which he saved our lives prettymuch, and from there we had to
live in pakistan for a coupleyears so that we could get our
visas and come to the states.
And you know, living inpakistan was we slept on the
(22:48):
floor, it was a mess, it's notsomething.
So when you come to the stateswhen we came to the states, it
was kind of like oh, now we can,it's, it's safe.
You know you could go outside,you could sleep at night and not
worry about bombs or people, amilitary coming in and you know
doing things right, so right.
(23:11):
You have a appreciation forfreedom, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And then this happened.
Well, this happened over aseries of time.
Some of the other stuff I readabout in terms of the lifestyle
choices that you made initially,which obviously the trauma
reaction, right and the you knowthe, the adult maturity or
whatever you call it, thefaculties to be able to say no,
this isn't the right way to go.
(23:36):
I you know that that makessense, but when, if you were
talking to somebody right nowthat has has a life, that
they're saying why me?
Right, that that question getsasked a lot, what?
What would your first words beto a person that's saying why me
?
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Why is this horrible life have to happen to me?
Well, I would say, yeah, that'sa tough question to answer, but
in the ultimate sense, I wouldsay why not you?
In the ultimate sense, I wouldsay it's these very things that
gives you the capacity to beable to experience something far
greater.
Because if you don't have thedepths, let's call it hell from
(24:17):
hell.
How can you know somethingthat's amazing or close to God?
You can't, because there is noreference.
You can't compare Right and the, the.
And I understand it, becausewhen you come from traumas of
whether you know, I've had thosetraumas with my child and then
getting into drugs, and thenalcohol and the addiction and
(24:40):
substance abuse and all that andthere's other people who
experience sexual abuse and allthose things, these things, what
happens?
It scars us.
Now, what I had to do was Iliterally had to go back and I
worked on all of these traumasto heal them, because the
(25:04):
reaction it was having was theactions I was taking.
For example, I smokedcigarettes for 24 years, I did
all kinds of drugs and I dranktons of alcohol because of the
addictive personality, becausethere was this pain inside that
nothing would quench it, nothingwould save me from it.
So I started.
(25:26):
The cause was you know thetraumas, I didn't know that, and
the effects were the cigarettes, alcohol and drugs.
So then, when I took all thoseaway, then I started dealing
with what I was suppressing frombefore and little by little and
you got to work at it, becauseit's not easy, it's hard work
Little by little I healed eachtrauma and went through it with
(25:48):
James' help, leech trauma andwent through it with James's
help and and it's possible forsomeone who comes from a broken
background like that to be ableto live from a new perspective,
completely new person, and notbe your, not be attached to your
experiences.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Right, yeah Right, not be in love.
I think sometimes there is alittle bit of a I'm in love with
my misery, right.
It's such a such a comfortablerelationship that to, to you
know, break that relationship.
It's the only relationshipsometimes I think people have.
It's the only relationship theytrust because they know where
it goes Right.
(26:27):
It's a risky thing.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
It's a risky thing In some cases.
You know, there's a concept inpsychology called secondary gain
, and you're probably, maybe,familiar with this, but in some
cases it gives us a convenientexcuse to not take
responsibility.
Well, you know, I'm, I'm alittle demon.
And why should I not be?
(26:48):
Because look at the demonicthings I've been through and the
reality is, yes, you've beenthrough demonic things and, yes,
you are a demon, and yet that'snot who you really are.
And if you're willing to takeresponsibility and do the work,
then you can step into your trueself.
Right, but it does take work.
(27:10):
I mean, we've been together 11years and it's um, she's, she's
worked diligently.
I mean, I, I don't know, I'veworked with, you know, over a
million people from 147countries and and I've never met
anyone that is so committed andhas so much perseverance like
(27:33):
she has.
And that's what it takes.
It's not easy, it's really not.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, if you want it handed to you.
It's not going to be so.
That wraps right into one ofthe first questions.
I have to say too, I love yoursuggested interview questions
because they're things I wouldhave asked anyways, but it's
just nice to see you're alreadysuggesting them.
I don't have to worry aboutgetting into some territory that
you go.
Oh yeah, I wish you wouldn'thave asked about that or get
(27:59):
ticked or something.
But you have a book out.
You actually have a number ofbooks.
That was part of what we didn'ttalk about in your intro is
that you're a bestselling author, a New York Times bestselling
author.
So no slouch task there.
We're not talking to some guy.
Yeah, he's got the IndianaSouth State of Indiana
bestsellers list.
Oh, wow, yeah, which means youbought a bunch of copies
(28:24):
yourself.
That's right, right in mygarage.
Right right, Anybody can be abestseller now, but the books
that you were known for up untilthis time, I think, seemed to
be more kind of self-help booksI guess I'd call them.
But your latest one is calledthe Business of Redemption.
I thought that was aninteresting title, but what
(28:46):
exactly does that mean?
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I suspect it has something to do with exactly
what Merceabah has been throughthe business of redemption right
, it does, and what I've beenthrough and that's what brought
us together and literallyallowed her and I say this with
absolute, literal intentions shesaved my life Because, if you
(29:13):
know my story, I went to thepeak of my profession, you know
I had everything you couldimagine Larry King, oprah,
best-selling book, you know Inc500 company, all those things
and then lost it all in aheartbeat in a horrible accident
in Sedona, arizona, in 2009.
(29:35):
And ended up, you know and ifyou want to get into the details
, we can get into them but endedup I talk about all of this in
the business of redemption isended up in a horrible accident,
lost it all and ended up goingto prison for two years for
negligence, because three peopleactually lost their lives in a
(29:59):
sweat lodge that I wasconducting, broke my heart, and
so I came out in 2013 and I was54 years of age and I was in
horrible physical condition, hadperiodontal disease.
I was alone.
I didn't know her, yet we metin 2013.
(30:20):
I was homeless and I was $20million in debt, and so you know
where do you go at that point,and so I had to dig deep and I
realized I really neededredemption, and I believe and
I'll define that clearly in justa moment, but I will say with
(30:43):
conviction that our countryneeds redemption, our world
needs redemption, every one ofus needs redemption.
What does that mean?
We hear that a lot in spiritualcircles, which I'm totally in
alignment with.
And yet, if you look up thetrue definition of redemption,
it is to gain or regainsomething by paying the price.
(31:03):
And so if you, as a viewertoday, need to gain something
you've never had, then you needredemption.
If you need to regain somethingyou once had but you lost, then
redemption is your answer.
And here's the key, though bypaying the price, because
there's always a price for theprize, and the bigger the prize
(31:26):
you're going after, the biggerthe price you must pay.
That's just how it works.
And so bigger the price youmust pay.
That's just how it works.
And so so, as I stood there inthe desert and realized I was in
desperate need of redemption, Irealized I had to really
remember who I was.
I had to get my head onstraight, I had to get my heart
in the right place I had.
(31:47):
I had to think about who was Igoing to be.
I call this version of me James3.0, which implies there's a
2.0 and a 1.0.
And those you know, we talkedabout 16.7.
As a 16.7, I've had someprevious crash and burns, and
that's part of our path in thislifetime from a mystical
(32:09):
perspective, in this lifetimefrom a mystical perspective.
And so, anyway, that's what Italk about in the business of
redemption is the entire storyof what I did while I was in
prison, my entire journey thereand what I did after I came out
and my climb back to I'm.
(32:30):
Obviously, today, the debt isfully retired.
I'm great, I'm super grateful.
I'm in great health and fitness, maybe the best health and
fitness of my life.
I'm not alone anymore.
You know, I'm married to themost amazing woman on the planet
and I'm not homeless.
We've got a beautiful home inHenderson, nevada, and so, again
, what I would say to you, muchlike similar to Beersheba, if
(32:54):
you're struggling today, which alot of people are, you know
there is redemption, there isthe God-given potential within
you to take your power back andyou have to remember, first and
foremost, who you are and thenyou have to continually remind
yourself of that daily.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
You know I keep listening to you and I apologize
.
My brain keeps coming up withthis question.
You talk about it in your bookright at the very beginning, the
why me question.
And yet one question I neversee, and maybe I haven't read
far enough in the book, so Iapologize for that.
But one question I never, or oneassertion I never hear you say
or read you say is it's not myfault, and that, to me, is a
(33:38):
critical thing today, especiallywith our political leadership,
we have so much of this it's notmy fault mentality that, as
long as that's part of ourpsyche and part of our you know
strategy for dealing with theworld around us, I don't really
care anymore.
You know, if you can't acceptresponsibility for your part in
(33:59):
it.
I mean the world, the nation,our communities the way they are
right now.
It is all of our fault and we,we either have to fess up to
that and say, all right, whatpart did I play in this?
And then confront it, or wecontinue to live in denial,
which denial is not just a riverin Egypt right, it's, it's, it
(34:20):
is a real thing, that was myline, oh sorry.
I had to be.
I knew it was coming.
I needed to get it out therequickly.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
I need to be the witty host.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yeah, this is the way it works, you know you're.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
You're so spot on I, you know, the border is not my
problem, it's the problem of thepresident.
That was three years ago.
Please, I mean please, allright.
Um, what I talk about inredemption is taking absolute
responsibility.
Absolute, and I mean thatliterally, because I've been
(35:00):
really blessed to have somegreat teachers.
One of them was a kahuna, whichis a sacred teacher in the huna
tradition out of the SouthPacific, and he told me you know
, to take absoluteresponsibility for every single
thing in my life.
For instance, if I don't likewho's in office, well, to your
(35:24):
point, how did I contribute tothat?
You know, if I don't likewhat's going on in our country,
how did I contribute to that?
And it's very empowering.
Some of the things seem to be astretch, you know, I don't know
that I can take responsibilityfor that, james.
Well, just pretend like you can.
And if you come from thatperspective, it's a very
(35:46):
empowering thought experiment,because when you take absolute
responsibility for everything inyour life, then you have the
capability to change it.
As long as you're playing thevictim or pointing the finger,
you're going to stay the victimand you don't have the
capability to change it, and Ifind too, in my relationships in
particular, I get distracted byother people's dilemmas.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
you know other people's well, you should be
doing this and that.
That, to me, is, um, well, Ihave a lot of theater background
and to me that's the same thingas an actor that's worried
about another actor's lines.
You know that's the quickestway to forget your lines.
You know, it's just.
I hope they don't blow this.
Oh, my God, they blew the cross.
You know that's that's, that'sjust a surefire way to kill your
play, right?
(36:32):
Do you find that to be true?
In the consulting that you do,that people have to stop
focusing on, yeah, see what theydo, see what they're doing, and
that takes the focus off theinner journey that we have to be
on, which is, yeah, but whatabout you?
Don't worry about the speck ofdust over there, worry about the
log over here.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yeah, very wise teacher said that, the speck of
dust, the log over here.
So, yeah, very wise teachersaid that, um, the log in your
own eye, um, and and and yes, I,we find that all the time.
And in fact, um, you know, it'salmost like that's an, it's an
epidemic.
You know, what do other peoplethink?
Well, let me tell you whatother people think.
(37:11):
They don't.
They don't think, you know,they don't, they don't really
think about you.
If they, they have so muchgoing on for themselves they
don't have the time or thebandwidth to be concerned really
about you.
And if they're a troll orthey're just hating on you, then
get a life, I mean seriously.
And get a life, I meanseriously, get a life.
(37:31):
And other people's opinions cankeep you stuck, and I see this
all the time, you know.
I'll give you a simple example,mundane example the giant, the
(37:55):
business giant, who goes home tohis parents or her parents'
home, and the parents still havethem frozen in time as a child
and they treat them like a child.
And I've seen those giants,those intellectual giants,
become children with theirparents, you know, because other
people's opinions of you cankeep you stuck and you have to,
you know, I find so many peopleselling out their morality,
selling out their truth, sellingout their capabilities, because
(38:18):
they're so afraid that they'regoing to ruffle some feathers.
Well, I believe and it's a loteasier for me, raul, because I
got knocked down hard, you know,crucified by the media,
literally crucified, and boy ithurt.
(38:42):
But now I'm kind of Teflon,because after you get called so
many names and get so manyarrows coming at you, then it's
kind of like whatever you knowand and, and I think we all have
to develop that, and it reallypains me to see so many people
selling out their truth andselling out what they believe
(39:05):
because they don't want toruffle feathers.
And what I'll just say inclosing on this topic is if
you're not making waves, you'replaying in the shallow end of
the pool period.
You know you should be makingwaves.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, there's a Japanese proverb, something to
the effect of the nail thatstands out gets hammered first.
So, and there's a lot of truthto that.
So in America today, bear, as aperson who's relatively new
American right compared to thoseof us that are in our 60s I
(39:40):
think I'm 63.
Yeah, okay, and have beenexperiencing America for a long
time.
So what's the key right now?
If you were to say, I've talkedwith holistic medicine people,
and they talk about how ourpharmaco industry is so
interested in treating thesymptoms that they don't get at
(40:02):
the cause of what's going on.
And I see that happening a lotfrom my perspective in our
country right now, that we'relooking at symptoms instead of
looking at the cause.
And I think that a lot of itcomes to one of the questions
you have about the softening ofthe men in the world today and
toxic masculinity.
(40:23):
And I thankfully live with twowomen, my daughter and my wife,
that are both intellectualsuperiors to me in many, many
ways.
Wife, that are, you know, bothintellectual superiors to me in
many, many ways and call me onmy baloney really quickly, and
sometimes I listen and learn andgo, thank you so much.
And sometimes I go, oh, yeah,so, and you can imagine how well
(40:44):
those times go.
So, and it is always.
But I, one of the things thathas come up is that toxic max
masculine masculinity, and I seethat in in the world and in our
country, and particularly uh,and globally.
I mean, you look at, you knowpeople like Putin and you know,
uh, jing Chao Bing and theirtoxic masculinity definitions
(41:08):
right there.
What do you say to people thatare looking at a world that
needs softened men and to getthem to say that's not a
softened man, that's a real man,that's a person that sees a
higher calling for men and womeneverywhere.
Is there a cure for that?
What's the cause of that?
(41:28):
That we see it so stupidly?
Speaker 4 (41:33):
We were talking about that this morning.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Over coffee oh.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
That was our topic.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Oh, excellent.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Yeah, what we come up with was the cause.
Well, I was telling him I'venoticed.
Okay, so if I were to look atGen Xers and below, so Gen Xers,
millennials, and is it Gen Zs?
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Z yeah.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
So what from?
I don't know the age range, isit 50 and below, or 55 and below
, I'm not sure?
But Gen Xers are likeborderline millennials, they
don't.
They're um, they're kind oftoxic masculinity.
Yeah.
So they're angry abouteverything, they're angry about
(42:15):
it, but they still have a littlebit, I think, of masculinity.
But then you have the babyboomers, I believe.
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (42:27):
Well, that's my generation, so your guys is
generation and I look at thatgeneration.
I say those are men we need.
These were men.
This is what men used to looklike.
Hey, I like her.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
No wonder you married her so yeah.
What is that man?
What I mean?
I I feel like you know the thewhole thing going on right now
with Trump and the insurrectionis it an insurrection?
I would have more respect forthem if they would stand up and
say damn right, it was aninsurrection.
We were standing up to thiscountry once and for all and
blah, blah, blah.
(43:04):
I mean that would be refreshing.
But instead of oh it was, itwas just a demonstration, we
were just protesting, our freerights speech and I'm like,
really Really, so we can't evenhave the integrity to call
ourselves what we are, which ismessed up, right.
I don't get where that?
(43:26):
When does it stop?
When do we start?
You know, we used to be great.
We are.
America has so much potentialfor being great.
We are squandering it instupidity and ignorance and
denial and lack of humility.
You have a story that I thinktypifies that right.
(43:47):
Everything is stripped awayfrom you In prison.
You know that is about as lowas I think anyone can go right.
Story that that, I think,typifies that right.
Everything is stripped awayfrom you in prison.
You know that that is about aslow as I think anyone can go
right, and yet you came out ofit without going.
Not my fault, not my fault.
See, I was absolved from it.
It's not that you came out ofit going.
No, I'm, I'm gonna rectify this.
How does america do that?
Speaker 3 (44:08):
why don't you talk about some of the qualities
since you started this?
Some of the qualities of a trueman.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
Well, I would say one of the things that I see that's
missing.
If I were to look at itgenerationally between me and
him, I would say I'm amillennial, so I'm 43.
So I'm and he is a baby.
So what we were missing was theum the family unit.
There were growing up, therewas no family.
(44:37):
The tv raised, raised me, andhe had a family unit.
Um one thing america had, uhhad, I say it's still kind of
some people still have it is umvalues and their and the
constitution which is in god, itwas that that's what it is is
principles and values and familyand structures and rules,
(45:01):
morality, morality, virtue,right, yeah, in places where
yeah yes, and when?
places, when these things nolonger are an effect or account
and anything goes.
Oh I, one day I could be a man,next day I could be a woman, I
could be whatever I want.
I feel like I'm a cat.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
I mean what?
Is a woman.
What is?
A woman.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
When you don't believe in anything, you'll
believe in anything.
Pretty much, You'll believe ineverything.
So, and what I see happeninghere is kind of and they, what
do you call it?
They clothe it in its democracy.
Well, okay, inclusion Inclusion,democracy, inclusion and you
(45:45):
know well that's what they werepreaching in Iran right before
the Islamic public took over.
So what I see happening rightin front of my eyes here in the
United States is the same thingthat happened in Iran, and it
was all in the name of democracy.
And then, when it came, theregime, whatever you want to
(46:06):
call it and the Ayatollah cameout the very first day in power
he said OK, from this day forth,the women have to start
covering their head andeveryone's going wait, what?
What happened?
And that was it, and that'swhat's happening here.
I mean there's people thatspeak out the truth and they're
getting thrown in prison in theUnited States.
(46:26):
Right, I mean that's crazy.
Without a trial, without atrial, I mean that's scary.
Yeah, so that's scary.
They broke the family unit, theytook the father out of the
house, the mother out of thehouse, and they said no woman
needs to be like a man and workno, she doesn't.
You know, to be a mom is verynoble and it's a job.
(46:52):
It's a very important job.
It's not demeaning, it's themost important job a person
could have is to be a mother,because you are raising the
future.
Yeah, but they diminish that.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
It's been very much minimized and I think bears was
correct, the, the shattering ofthe family unit.
If you look at and I'm writingabout this in my new book which
I'm working on right now but ifyou look at how the hierarchy
used to be, it was God and thenit was family and then it was
church and then it was maybecommunity school system and it
(47:27):
was maybe community schoolsystem and we could argue maybe
they shuffle around a bit butwhere there's no argument is the
pinnacle of the hierarchy wasGod and in a secular society
which is defined, secular isdefined as religious
indifference or skepticism.
We've gotten so far away fromthat.
(47:52):
Let's call it a verticalrelationship, even though that's
a metaphor, and so it leaves usat Flatland, it leaves us with
a horizontal relationship andthe only thing we have and
Beerswood didn't have a familyunit, my family, my dad was home
every night for dinner.
My mom was home when I got homefrom school.
We ate every dinner togetherand we talked with each other
and debriefed our day and thatwas the norm.
(48:15):
Well, not anymore, you know.
And so, unfortunately, whathappens?
Well, beersipa happened.
She didn't have that structure.
So she goes out into herneighborhood, which was not the
best of environments, and startsinteracting with gang members
and people who are doing drugs.
And now this becomes the normand I build my ethics based upon
(48:39):
what I see around me, versusthese fundamental principles
that are moral and right andtrue, that are innate, innocent
unless we suppress them and moveaway from them.
I don't think there's such athing.
I would have to disagree withyou, respectfully, on Putin.
(49:00):
I don't think there's such athing as toxic masculinity.
Well, there might be.
Well, there might be.
Yeah, andrew Tate, or some ofthose you know.
I mean, that's machismo, that'snot a man, I'm sorry.
You know, macho is notmasculinity, because if you're a
(49:24):
man, you don't have to prove it, you just are it.
And so for me, you're, you'vegot integrity, you've got morals
.
You, you want to take care ofyour, of your woman and your
family, and and you can, you canshare your feelings with your
woman and your family.
You don't stuff them and say,oh, that's not manly.
(49:47):
You know, um, I was reallyblessed.
I grew up with a father most inmy genre or in my age bracket,
and maybe you too were taughtmen don't cry.
Well, my dad told me, men cando whatever they want to do, and
I was.
I was blessed, you know, and alot of us were taught walk it
(50:09):
off, bucko.
What do you complain?
Speaker 2 (50:11):
about.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
Now that's needed when you look at may I may I use
the term snowflake, Right whenyou?
Look at the snowflakes.
Who, oh, I can't work eighthours a day.
No, I mean please, please.
You know I'm, I've been in thisbody six years and I work 12
hours a day.
Right, so come whining to me,get your butt out there and get
(50:35):
busy, um, and do something withyour fair fair.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Well, you know, and it's difficult, we taught you
know.
And I shouldn't bring, uh, Iguess, national figures into the
equation, because thedifficulty with all of that
anybody that's in that realm isthe media defines the narrative
for how those folks aredescribed, right?
So we don't really know, wecan't know, I'm not.
You know what's the MarkTwain's old saying you know,
(51:00):
believe, believe half of whatyou see and nothing of what you
hear.
You know.
So, in there, it is so easy tohave our perceptions of anyone
you know narrated for us bysomeone else and again not think
about it, right?
So, because you have to, Ireally am thankful for my
background in theater, because Iplayed a lot of characters that
were, quote, unquote,despicable people.
(51:23):
You know, they were folks thatyou would not like if you ran
into them at a cocktail party.
And the reality is that whenyou're playing any character,
you have to understand thatnobody sees themselves as an
antagonist.
They just don't.
Everybody has a reason.
Right, I'm a complete jerk.
Because, if I'm not a completejerk, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, or because of what happens, I'm the protagonist.
(51:46):
Right, I'm the protagonist.
Right right, what are youtalking about?
These happens.
I'm the protagonist.
I'm the protagonist, Rightright.
These people, these people arethe antagonists, because you
know they ask stupid questionsin the morning.
Why can't they be more likecoffee?
Coffee doesn't ask stupidquestions in the morning.
So, yeah, I mean there's.
So I, you have to be, I know wehave to be careful of that and
we we are.
I think part of the problemwith the softening of men or the
(52:06):
whatever all is, is that we'reallowing other people to define
that for us.
Um is there, is there a driver?
And we're running out of time.
I'm really sorry about that.
I'm looking at the clock.
You're going.
We have to have an easyquestion at the end here that we
can wrap up with um, is there,is there a really powerful
driver in human behavior?
And that you think any personcould take and say I'm going to
(52:28):
really just work on this thing,this behavior, this attitude.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
Yes, I would say for men, if we're talking about men,
a couple of things workout, youknow it's important.
God gave you a body and yourbody needs to be strong and
flexible.
Workout that takes discipline.
Number two stay away from porn.
You know.
I mean, if you look at, if youlook at current research, a lot
(52:55):
of our younger men don't evencare to have sex anymore.
They don't.
Their, their sperm count is inthe tank and this is all
documented and that you knowthat's a driver of the male, the
masculinity, and so stay awayfrom that.
It's going to ruin your futurerelationships.
And work out and then studyeternal principles.
(53:19):
You know, as a true philosopherwould say study eternal truth.
Start at the great masters,because when you, when we're we
have a group that gets togetherevery other Thursday night and
we're studying the greatphilosophers right now and when
you look at all the greatphilosophers, from Socrates to
Plato, um to to um, plotinus, toBuddha, any of them they talk
(53:43):
about fundamental principles andtruths.
Be honest, tell the truth, bemoral, be principled.
Stay away from drugs, stay awayfrom alcohol.
You know all those types ofthings.
It's pretty simple.
It's just simply not applied.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
And there you have it .
So, folks, my guests today havebeen James Earl Ray and
Beersheba Beersheba Ray Bear.
I'm just going to have to staywith Bear Beersheba Beersheba
Ray Bear.
I have to stay with bearBeersheba.
But James is a New York Timesbestselling author, philosopher,
consultant, worked with over amillion people.
You said it yourself A millionpeople in 147 countries.
(54:21):
I thought you said not 146.
So you've added a countrysomewhere along the line here.
But author of many books thatare wonderful, I would
particularly put people towardsyour latest book, the Business
of Redemption.
I've just read the first coupleof chapters and already
thinking why didn't I start thisearlier, before interview?
I'd have much more intelligentquestions to ask.
(54:42):
And, beersaba, thank you somuch for being alongside your
wonderful man there and forsupporting him.
So thank you both for your time.
I hope we can maybe join useach other again at some point
in the future and talk some more, seeing as we got that much.
That would be wonderful.
We would enjoy that.
Speaker 4 (54:58):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
Thank you so much, both of you, and thank you folks
for listening to.
Frame of Reference Profiles inLeadership.
I've given you a great profilein leadership here, both the
male and the female side of it,so please take it and run with
it.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com