August 18, 2023 • 50 mins
Do you ever ponder the societal and cultural impacts of sex and sexuality? In this week's episode Rauel and Antowan tumble down that rabbit-hole together. They confront various beliefs and perceptions, specifically addressing the misconception of promiscuity within the African American community. In the process, we unravel the intertwined threads of primal instincts, societal assumptions, and personal responsibility regarding sex, even drawing parallels with a biblical tale of a temple brothel.
As we delve deeper, we explore the intricate relationship of sexuality with religion and the challenges posed by our lustful temptations. We reflect on the consequences of a disrupted family structure and how it fosters a lack of understanding and education. Turning our lens towards the church's role in society, we find a scenario worth contemplating; has it become a networking platform instead of a space for worship? While we delve into sensitive subjects like generational rape, we emphasize the importance of teaching the truth about Jesus and the potential it holds to bring about change.
Lastly, we discuss profound issues like poverty, inequality, and the need for compassion. We highlight the story of a single mother and the many hurdles she faces, underscoring that with the right resources, education, and much-needed compassion, the cycle of poverty and despair can be broken. Remember, these discussions are not about passing judgment but understanding the complexities of life. Join us on this journey of exploration and find a fresh perspective on these pressing issues.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Let's have it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
So good morning, good evening, good afternoon.
Wherever you are listening toFrama reference coming together,
it's me, raul Lebrouche.
And who are you against, sir?
I, I.
Why can't I remember your name?
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Antoine Hallman senior.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Oh yeah, that's right , that's fine, that is your name
.
I'm glad you remember your name.
I just I can, you know, help me, antoine, I cannot figure out a
way to segue from I'm RaulLebrouche.
Maybe we just I'd say, if I sayRaul Lebrouche, you just right
away say I'm Anton and I'mAntoine Hallman.
Or if you say I'm Anton, I justremember saying I'm Raul
Lebrouche.
Would that work?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, it'll fit, we'll figure it out, man.
Okay yeah, just nice to be up,man.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We're still new at this.
I mean what we've been doingthis for almost what?
Four or five months orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I think yes, I got probably like a fifth, sixteenth
episode or something like thatyeah.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Something, something around there, which is, I mean
that means we've got 16 hours orso, maybe more, involved in
talking with each other, and thegood news is we are still
talking to each other.
I think you know we haven'tsaid, oh man, what the hell does
he think he's talking about?
Or whatever happens with mostpeople.
I can't think of many people Icould have a 16 hour
(01:29):
conversation with, Can you?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So no, no, my wife, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
But yeah, but those are sometimes you have to have
them, right, I guess we have tohave those used to.
But so we were talkingbeforehand, we were actually
going to, we kind of wanted tohit on the Black Lives Matter
some more, but I mean we need tohit on that as well as
everything else we've talked toup until this point.
But we started talking aboutthe big S yes, the big S, and I
(01:58):
don't mean safety, I don't meansocialism, I'm not talking about
any other S than sex and theimpact that sex has on our world
today, and I think there's adifferent perspective of sex.
I can start out from thingsthat I've heard, things that I
(02:20):
know are believed by people frommy side of the racial spectrum
or skin color, let's say skincolor spectrum.
Okay, that sex in the AfricanAmerican community is much more
promiscuous than it is in thewhite community.
That you know, the, that youknow.
(02:43):
Black people have kids, you know, because it gives them more of
a financial advantage, becausethey can collect more AFDC or
whatever they're calling welfarefor for families.
These days it seems like thatprogram changes regularly.
Anyways, that that, to me,fundamentally, is disrespectful,
because it doesn't equate thehumanity of the situation to the
(03:09):
reality of the situation.
Are there people that collectmore?
Is it possible to collect moreaid for the community, aid for
family dependent children Ifthey have more kids?
Of course it is.
Each of those kids is worth acertain amount of money and the
government recognizes that itcosts money to raise them.
But the quote unquote.
You know, welfare queen orwhatever, you know people want
(03:30):
to categorize that that that isnot by any means the majority.
That's a small, you know.
Look at the statistics.
Don't.
Don't just believe that.
You know that's a thing thatgets you pissed off.
So you're going to spread itaround.
The statistics do not supportthat as being the reason.
Black people, or people ofcolor in general, have a lot of
(03:53):
babies.
It's more about.
You know what you were talkingabout earlier.
You know our view towardssexuality, our view towards our
primal.
You know it is.
I mean, the little known secretin the biblical community is,
back in Old Testament days therewas a temple brothel.
There was a temple prostitutethat was available outside of
(04:19):
the places of worship.
So now, whether that was everycommunity, the Bible doesn't say
, but it's one of the reasonsthat one of the central
characters now let you read itand figure it out.
You know that he was convictedof the fact that he was
responsible for a woman that hadbeen married to one of his sons
and was no longer alive and shevery much, and very rightfully
(04:43):
so, tried to convince him thathe needed to take responsibility
for her.
You know, she didn't have anyother means of supporting
herself.
So she asked for him to pleasetake care of her, and he didn't
want anything to do with that.
So she convinced her, you know,got an idea that she would pose
(05:03):
as a temple prostitute and inthe process of that she
collected, I believe, a ring andone other piece of his personal
possessions that somehow shewas able to get away from it.
I forget that part of the story,but basically that was used
then as evidence.
Down the road she veiledherself in a way that he
(05:23):
couldn't see who she was.
But he had sex with her and youknow she was able then to.
I think, if I remember maybeyou remember this story, antoine
, and how she then was pregnantand came to him and said you
know, you're the father of thisbaby now.
And he said give me a break,how could that possibly be?
And she showed him then hissignet ring and the other.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yes, yeah, of course I know exactly what you mean.
The story you're talking aboutin the course of what it was, is
the young lady that posedherself as a prostitute.
She was actually the wife ofone of his sons, but his son
died before they had children,and so she needed a child.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Okay, okay, to continue his lineage.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Right.
And so what she did?
She posed herself as aprostitute and, of course, the
man, he came into a town.
He didn't have any provision topay her, so he gave her
something to hold until he cameback.
And then, of course, she came,and then she told him about, you
know, the thing that he hadgiven her.
I'm trying to think of the name, but I know the story, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And it was a fairly prominent character within
biblical history.
And the reason I tell thatstory too is because it tells
you something about ourrecognition of the importance of
sexuality and our you know, ourrecognition as men, the need to
provide a means for, you know,satisfying those desires.
Right, they recognize that, somuch so that a temple prostitute
(06:57):
was an acceptable provision.
And, being a theater person, Ijust I have this, you know way
of thinking about things.
It's like, you know, imagine iftoday we were going to church
and we said to our wife okay,honey, you and the kids go ahead
, I'm just going to stop herewith Bertha, and you know we're
going to, you know, or you knowJaney, or you know fire,
whatever.
And you know, I just I got alittle something to take care of
(07:18):
it.
You said, and you know, just bea couple of minutes.
And the wife turns back andsays, yeah, with you, it'd be
like 35 seconds.
You know what I mean.
Can you imagine what that wouldbe like today if we continue to
do that?
But it was a part of the wholeprocess of religiosity.
At one point it was.
So let's, let's deal with thereality of where this thing
(07:39):
comes from, how far back it goesand instead of just you know,
brushing it off as a well,they're just promiscuous or
they're, they're just, you know,whatever, they don't care.
Well, you know, yeah, it.
Probably you knew someeducation about the importance
of when you take your, when Iput it out there, when you pull
your zipper down, you better bein a position to be able to
(08:02):
support the possibility of whatmight happen.
Or you know, even if you'redoing protection, that that
still may not protect you inevery instance, as it doesn't
take responsibility for that.
And marriage hopefully providesan opportunity for that child
to have some protection and forthat family to have some
(08:24):
protection of surviving Afterthat life is brought into the
world.
That's the core of it.
So if we don't recognize, forwhatever reasons, whether it's,
you know, I have the right to dowhatever I want sexuality as
part of who I am.
I need to be able to explorethat.
Okay, right, no one's denyingthat.
(08:44):
But again, with our eye reallybig on this, we have rights, yes
, but every single right youhave carries with it a
responsibility.
I have the right to protectmyself and my family, but if I
shoot somebody in what Iperceive as being a threat to my
(09:06):
family.
I now have a responsibility forthat action I do, whether I can
justify it or not, and that'swhat this particular issue sex
is not about the physical actWith for some men takes 35
seconds to get through rightit's about the longer lasting
responsibility that that actentails, and God knew it.
(09:28):
God, right away, said this issomething that it needs to be
held as holy.
This is something that needs tobe done as a glorification, and
we don't, we don't, we don'tglory.
We sully it by ourIrresponsibility and how we deal
with it.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, you know what what's sex was supposed to be?
No, according to biblicalstandards, is the act between a
man and a woman To replicateguys image throughout the earth.
You know, and of course, welook back to what you were
saying earlier.
Just, uh, you know, we talkabout sex today, you know, I
(10:09):
think it simply starts with thelack of education of about sex.
You know the importance of whatit really means and you know,
course, when we talking aboutimpoverished communities,
whether it's white or black, youknow, I think just the
education is missing.
You know, course, like you know, we can see these things
Prominent in bigger cities, butyou go to a place like Kansas,
(10:32):
nebraska, iowa, you'll see thesame thing in the white
community.
So it's not.
Yeah, because because, as awhole, we know no stats show, as
a whole, we know that there'smore white people on welfare
than black, and but you know,the thing is, you know, now it's
like people are saying that ohno, they'll say that the black,
(10:54):
black people have, black womenhave babies for the sole purpose
of Receiving welfare.
I say is, is, is, is, is a, isa laughing.
I can, you can laugh at it withpain because of the lack of you
have to have like a bird's eyeview of the thing you know when
you live in these impoverishedcommunities.
(11:15):
Right, there's no resource,there's no Education, there's no
hope.
What else is it to do but messaround?
Do it out of boredom.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I know what we can do , right now, whoa, what man
wouldn't go for that.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Come on, you know Like again, it's like out of
boredom, out of education, it'sout of, you know, out of a, out
of not having enough exposure todo something different.
You know, when you feel yourtime with things of a
Self-building or biblicalknowledge or spiritual growth or
something like that, it takesaway those physical urges, you
(11:53):
know, and of course that's whereI think it starts, you know the
lack of it.
And I think these things andagain just me personally, I
think these things aresystematic and deliberately done
.
The resources are taken out ofa black communities, like you
see, you drive around Chicago,you drive around Milwaukee.
There's really no clinicsanymore.
And of course, this whole thingagainst Planned Parenthood,
(12:16):
this attack on them, where theyare First forced to close a lot
of their things, and then, ofcourse, it says there's no
education.
And then, of course, like, sexeducation has stopped being
talked about as a sex between aman and woman, but it become
more of a sexuality thing orSexual identity thing than
actual the education of sex.
(12:36):
And then, of course, even goingbeyond sex, the, the, the, like
you said, the responsibility ofthe, the act.
There's a strong chance thatyou will have a baby or you will
get pregnant, and then it'slike then what?
But again it starts in thechurch because now and no,
things have become so secularthat you know the Bible says no,
(12:57):
no, he's a goddess againstfornication, meaning premarital
sex of people that's not marriedliving together.
Hey, let's face it, because weall done it.
You know.
Thing is, you know I, prior toour knowledge in the Bible, we
all had sex without beforemarriage.
Both my sons were born out ofwedlock or before I was married.
(13:17):
And the thing is I didn't knowthe truth then.
But now that I know the truth,I know that it's wrong to do.
Yes, I've changed my values,I've changed my lifestyle, I've
changed just my overall view onthe matter.
And the thing is, in the churchtoday, you make it okay to do
(13:37):
what you wanna do, like humanismit says, hey, do whatever feels
good to you, and that goesagainst the knowledge of God.
But you know, and the thing is,when it comes to sex, and
particularly sex in the blackcommunity, yes, it's, I wouldn't
say a matter of it's, again outof boredom, you know, lack of
(14:00):
education, lack of exposure tonew things, you have like say,
you may have too much time onyour hand, because again, all
these things come down to aboiling point of the have to
have, nots right, you know, Ican't get a bus pass to.
The jobs that are available aremiles away from where I live.
You know, then, of course, Ihave two children already.
(14:23):
So, in order for me to takethis job, you know, of course,
that black woman, she wants totake that job.
But you know, the thing is nowit's childcare.
Then, of course, you'rebattling and just I've seen this
with my own eyes.
You know where no women, whiteand black, they battle with
these state agencies overbenefits.
Well, if you do this, you can'thave that.
(14:44):
If you do this, you can't.
If you go to work, we're gonnacut your pay.
If you go to work,unfortunately we can't give you
this and we can only give youthis for childcare.
It's always that thing thatstops the full blown growth, and
I think it's by, I believe it'sby design.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
And so when we're talking about this, how can it
not be by design when itincentivizes staying in that
situation?
I mean, you've talked aboutthat before, how it's also
incentivization to not have thefather live at home.
So we talk about you know allthese kids that are growing up
without dads.
Well, our programs forsupporting the kids incentivize
(15:23):
that.
And let's face it, even whenthe father's working and being a
part of the home, they stillare at the lowest level of wage,
earning many, many, many, many,many times.
And let's just not even talkabout that spectrum for a moment
.
Let's talk about the spectrumof our church, and you know both
you know, antoine and I talkenough about God from a
(15:46):
perspective of we're not peoplethat haven't run through the
Bible a couple of times.
Okay, it is a wonderful workand it is a living word of God.
And if you don't accept that asa reasonable hypothesis, read
it yourself.
Until you know, and have readit from cover to cover, you
won't understand what that means.
(16:07):
So okay, that out of the way.
What I am against, against andwill be against is religiosity,
because religiosity has beenferocitical since way before
Jesus's time where there's a setof things that have been
decided upon as being the way tobehave.
(16:28):
It's, you know, it's a code ofbehavior, a code of ethics, a
code of morality and propriety,and that when you think that
that's what makes you closer toGod and believe that those
things are what make you closerto God, you are completely
missing the boat, because JesusChrist is the way to God.
(16:49):
It's the.
He is the way, the truth andthe life, and that's not.
That's not trying to sayfriends of mine, listeners, that
are Muslim, need to.
You know, I'm not judging, Ican't judge, it's not my job to
judge.
But I say all that becausethere are plenty of instances in
which Christian men have notfor any other purpose than
(17:10):
because they lust after someonewho is not their wife, who is
attractive in some way, who saysthe right things to them and
you know it takes advantage oftheir personal vulnerabilities,
who is availing themselves andit could be a man just as easily
as it could be a woman who isdissatisfied in their marriage.
(17:32):
And, oh my gosh, doesn't ithappen periodically that they
are leaders, pastors, headpastors, willow Creek, the
Bakers, jimmy Swagger we arereplete with examples in
contemporary society that aremen of God that have succumbed
to something that is so powerful, and that's what we need to
(17:55):
realize.
Sexuality is so powerful in thedesire for what sex provides,
and you know we can go into thatif you want to about the whole
power play that's, you know,present in sexuality, in sex
with people, but let's not gothere quite yet.
The thing that really gets mewith all that is we don't
(18:15):
realize that this is not a blackand white problem.
This is not a black.
People are, you know, badbecause they do this.
We all get hung up on sex andwe all want to treat it like
it's.
You know you're such a dirtyperson for doing that.
Now, you know it's education,it's accountability.
(18:36):
When a religious leader can saythings like you don't
understand because you're not atthe spiritual level that I'm at
, you know that I this is okayfor me because of where I'm at
with my spiritual walk, that'snothing more than arrogance.
Come on, and where are thepeople, where are the Christian
brothers and sisters that sitand say whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
(18:58):
whoa.
You don't get to pull that cardon me, no, let's look at the
Bible together, okay, and youshow me your advanced
spirituality and how that holdsup in the context of this verse
and this verse and this verse.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
How does that consist ?
You know, the Bible says, yeah,that God is not a respect to a
person's right.
And so we are at all treatpeople the same.
And of course, when it comes toleaders in the church having
sex, I would be with lay members.
That is the ultimate no, no,you know.
And.
But the thing is, you know, ofcourse, like again, the Bible
(19:35):
continuously talks about,particularly the apostle Paul
talks about, you know, living inthe spirit and not in the flesh
, you know.
And that's where a lot ofthings go wrong.
Of course, no, the Bible tellsus, hey, there's no temptation,
that's not common to man, andthe Lord will make a way out of
it, you know.
(19:55):
But the thing is, you know, wesuccumb to lustful desires.
He said when we Bible also sayswhen we let ourselves go to
lustful desires, that's wheresin abounds.
And but the thing is, when itcomes to those things, it comes
back to the education piece.
You know, of course, that's whyyou see the breakdown in the
country as a whole.
You know, it's going to startwith the individual.
(20:15):
You know, it's going to startwith the family and of course,
the family structure these dayshas changed.
You know, it's no longer theman and the wife living in the
home together is is no, a singleparent, is a two of the same
sex, or is a dysfunctional manand woman living together?
And they're young, they arevery, they're getting younger
(20:37):
and younger, and so what it is?
There's no education there, andso what happens?
You know, there's a lot of,there's a lot of.
You heard that old adage.
You know people, a lot ofcouples, they fight, and the
other F word, that's all they do, that's all they do is fight
and the other F word, what it'sonly rhymes with truck, no doubt
(20:59):
.
So that's all they do.
And again it comes back to lackof education, it comes to lack
of resources, it comes to, youknow, just not knowing, lack of
exposure.
And again it starts in theindividual, it starts in the
family, then of course, itstarts in the community and then
it leads right back to thechurch.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And it perpetuates things.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
It's hard.
And that's where, you know, youstart to see the.
You know, lately you arestarting to see the biggest
melting pot of problems thedivision in the church.
You know, and of course now,from a standpoint of ministry,
where my wife and I are, it isgetting harder and harder.
To this I won't say this, Iwon't say it, I'm just gonna say
it.
Yeah, it's getting harder andharder to disciple people
(21:44):
because they see how the churchbehaves now, or that's what they
see is the image of how thechurch behaves.
You know so, like.
But instead it's like you knowhow they say it with oh, it's
one like, with bad cops, it'sone bad app, don't let one bad
apple destroy the whole bunch.
The same applies to churches.
You know, like, yes, you seewhat you see on TV and the news,
but you can't put us all in thesame boat, right?
(22:05):
And you know, of course, likeyou know, as a practice in my
ministry is, you know, menminister to men and women
minister to women.
A woman will come to me withsomething.
I'll say, hey, let's talk to mywife or our senator, one of
them, minister Tanisha or pastorLuanne, I'll send them there.
(22:26):
And same with men coming to mywife or one of the other lady
people in authority or inposition in our ministry.
That's how we do things tominimize that very thing,
because we've seen it happenreal time, with our own eyes,
where a lead pastor or pastorhas had an adulterous affair
(22:49):
with one of his members of hischurch.
We've seen it and that's alsoanother reason why my wife and I
we go out in tubes.
You rarely see me without mywife.
You rarely see me without mywife, and it's just because you
see these things and say that.
You know we thank God forJehovah Nisi, who is our banner,
our protector.
He protects us against theworld, he protects us against
(23:11):
our own flesh, he protects usagainst our minds.
He fights this battle for us.
But you know, when we're talkingabout sex in the church, it's
very real.
You know.
Of course, like you know, we alot of pastors dismiss, talking
about the things that hurt theharder God.
And that is the look at Romansone, starting around verse 16
(23:35):
all the way through the end, andthen of course he's talking
about fornication, same sexstuff.
He's talking about just havinga wrong mind and he says if you
continue these things, I'llleave you to a wrap up a mind to
do those things that are notconvenient for you.
Now, me as a person, just me asa pastor, I'll say this I
(23:56):
believe every single word of theBible, pertaining to every
single area of life, and Istrongly believe when the Bible
says in Luke six, startingaround verse 30, that I am not a
judge.
I am not a judge, and so it'slike, regardless of what a
person does or has done, we lovethem.
(24:19):
How can?
Because, whether it's a becauseI've seen churches shun a
single mother because all shehad a baby without a husband and
so she can't participate inchurch activities, or she shows
up pregnant and she's notmarried, but so the church shuns
her, that is, oh my goodness,it's like you basically turning
(24:41):
away someone that's seeking God.
And that's what Jesus, when heripped the Pharisees apart, he
was saying hey, people aretrying to enter the kingdom of
God and you won't stop them andyou yourself won't even come in.
And so it's like we are notjudges, we love people, because
deliverance only comes by love,and so when we can get to a
space of love, it'll diminish alot of the problems that we have
(25:05):
in this world today, whetherit's the preconceived notions,
whether it's the misinformation,the disinformation, the
misconceptions, the flat outlies.
When we start loving peoplewe'll get to the love is.
The lack of love is at the rootof every problem.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Well, in this problem of pro-life versus pro-choice,
pro-birth, really pro-women'srights versus pro-life, there
are all those complexinteractions of behavior and
needs and all of them boil downto lack of love.
(25:47):
When it comes down to, we as achurch have caused the problems
that there are in thispromiscuity issue and this sex
issue and the issue of who hasthe right to their own body.
We have caused that by, forhundreds of years, if not
thousands, treating women andmen who didn't have a right
(26:12):
understanding of sex or who, putinto a situation, as you know,
say they can't even affordNetflix.
So what are they gonna do?
There's only so much time inthe day, and if I had the
difference between sitting onthe couch and watching
(26:32):
television and having sex withmy wife, I know what would win
100% of the time.
But we're also in a positionthat, because we're married, if
something happens, we can do theright thing for that baby and
there's just so many ways totreat that, and it's complex
(26:53):
because it all comes down towell, where are the support
people for that?
That's gonna say, how can I helpyou?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Exactly, and so it's like the support should be
coming in before the child iseven conceived.
Again, the lack of education,the lack of resources.
Because, again, when you haveeducation, with the education
comes better decisions and withthose better decisions comes a
change in trajectory in yourlife and of course it's a lot of
(27:22):
things that affect that.
And again it's like we weretalking about Black Lives Matter
and of course that's what theyare fighting the systematic and
targeted demise of Black people.
And that's where, again, a lotof resources, a lot of education
, a lot of things are beingtaken out of clinics, are being
(27:43):
taken away out of communities.
You gotta travel X amount ofway, or if you go to a space and
you get mistreated so bad thatyou don't wanna go back.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Or you make it more necessary to have that baby.
I mean you, just what are yougonna do so that perpetuates?
It's a property grader, makesthe children's lives more
horrible.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
And even if a say, a young couple decide to have an
abortion, there's no money topay for it.
There's no money to pay for it.
And so it's like, again theproblems, again they all stem
back to know the have and havenots, know that poverty,
stricken areas.
(28:24):
Yes, you're gonna see morechildren, then you're gonna see
more poverty, you're gonna seemore hungry children, and then
again it's just like thisperpetual hole that's being dug.
And then, of course, like youknow, we were talking about the
distribution of wealth in thecountry.
No one, everyone's saying theyhate the most.
People are saying like they'rejust doing it to stay on welfare
.
I don't, I've known some to dothat, yes, but we also know in
(28:50):
my ministry, my wife and I'sministry, because when her
ministry is shined and she dealswith teen you know BIPOC, you
know black indigenous people,color women she deals with black
, even in the shelter.
She deals with a low incomewhite women, and the struggle is
the same lack of resources,lack of education.
(29:11):
It's perpetuated and it's, Ithink it's deliberate, and you
know, of course, and then it'slike only one side of the
problem is actually pointed outoh, they're having babies to
stay on welfare.
No, they stay on.
It's like we know women in ourministry are saying that they
want change, they want, theywant to change, and then,
(29:34):
unfortunately, like in mostimpoverished communities, the
family structure is so messed upthat you know it's hard to find
a babysitter, or you don'ttrust your baby with certain
people.
You know what I mean.
So you're stuck, you are juststuck, and it's like there's no
hope.
And then that's why you see thesuicide rate where it is.
You know cause people are losinghope, and people that, like you
(29:57):
said, this is the richestcountry in the world.
There's no way that you knowthe way some people live in
certain areas of the countryshould be living.
And it's just again.
And then so like when you havea group like Black Lives Matter
that points these things out,they are targeted and it's now
it's reverse racism, it's a youknow, oh, white lives matter too
(30:21):
.
And it's like, oh, you say alllives matter.
Then, of course, and it's justlike, well, if all lives matter,
then it wouldn't be, you don'tneed, for black lives matter,
then it's just.
It's almost like you pick afight to take your focus off the
bigger problem.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
And that's where, of course that's where we are, and
then, of course, even in thisdiscussion, where are the people
having this discussion?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Right, yeah, you know , and it's like man, it's like
you know, when you expose aproblem, when you expose the
issue, you become the problem,and that's where we are.
And it's like you know, whennow, the fact that there's a
young, young Caucasian or youngwhite people wanting to know
more about black history, theyare now being targeted, they are
(31:06):
now.
Now it's like this woke thing,this and that and the other,
it's like I wish people wouldjust wake up and understand that
the spirit of division is real.
They got to understand thatthing.
This is a spiritual battle, youknow, and that's where we
really need to get people.
I want to say that's what wewere talking about the church.
There's so much things going onin the church that people are
doing churchy things, thinkingthat they are going to be saved.
(31:28):
It's all if I joined this group, if I joined that group, if I
joined a choir, if I joined it.
That doesn't get you saved,cause, when people start joining
all these different things andsaying, oh well, I'm a part of
this at the church, I'm a partof that at the church, I do this
at the church, you're basicallysaying, oh well, these are the
things that I need to take toget me saved, when it actually
is Jesus Christ who saves you.
(31:48):
And if it's him who saves you,if he's your salvation, if he's
your redeemer, if he's yourtrust, then you would live
according to his principles thebest that you can, because again
, we all fall short of the gloryof God.
But if we're trying our best tostrive to have that
Christ-like-mindedness, a lot ofthese things wouldn't exist.
But of course, in the church nowwe got churches actually that
(32:11):
have a militias.
There's white churches in theSouth that have militias.
They're teaching the wrongthings and of course the church
used to be the beacon of thecommunity.
People that needed help wouldactually run to the church for
help.
But now the church is a hookupspot.
The church is a resource center, the church is a networking
event.
(32:32):
Everybody come to church butfor the reason to know Jesus,
and that's where it's a sad day.
That, of course.
Again, individual, family,community church.
And then you got town, city,village, state, country, and
that's where we are.
And but you know the church.
(32:55):
Yeah, of course I love the bodyof Christ, I love them all, but
there's a group that isperpetuating they're not
perpetuating the very nature ofChrist and so I argue about the
wrong things too Exactly, and sothat's where you know, again, a
(33:15):
lot of these things stem fromyou know, of course, like you
talk about community resources,but then you also talk about the
church teaching the rightthings.
And of course you know we asFaithWorks Ministries.
You know we when we have theseother groups to teach about life
and finance and things likethat.
(33:36):
But it's like before, it's likewhen, dependent on the person
or where they are in a life, yougot to teach them about Jesus
first, because, again, it's likewhen they know Jesus and accept
Jesus as their Lord and Savior,the Holy Ghost comes upon or
the Holy Spirit comes part oftheir lives or comes into them
and he will guide them into all.
Truth is what we hope and prayfor, and so it's just we have to
(34:02):
get back to the basics ofteaching Because, again, like
parents are getting younger andyounger, like grandparents are
now grandparents.
When you say grandma, right,you used to think, oh, 70, 60,
70, 80 year old grandma.
Grandma is now 28, 29 years oldand the life lessons that used
to be handed down got lost.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
And so you see, that Seriously 28 or 29, you've seen
that young, so that means thekids are having sex at 12,.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
for God's sake, 12, 13, 14, yep, and that's where we
are.
And then the 28 year oldgrandma.
She didn't have the knowledgethat, again, they started to get
younger and younger.
She had to have kids at 15, 16,14 herself.
So that's you know.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's not even talking about generational rape,
which is a whole anotherspectrum of problems that causes
the same physical problem, butit's again that generational
lack of education, the lack ofresources, the lack of exposure
to new, exciting things.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And that's what my wife and I try to do with these
young people is exposing the newthings.
We try to talk about places youknow like.
What are you like?
No, besides, you know, ofcourse it's easy to say what do
you want to be when you grow up.
Then it's like you had to takeit a step deeper.
Really, where would you like tolive?
How would you like to live?
What do you do you see yourselfwith children later on in life,
you know, do you see yourself ina different?
(35:27):
What do you love to do?
What do you see yourself?
And then you try to spark somethought.
You try to spark some somethingwithin them to make them strive
to one of them Some hope.
And then you bring in somesubject matter experts to speak
on certain things, to again togive them hope.
You know, and of course, mywife and I's lives.
You know we can talk, we shareour darkest, dirtiest
(35:50):
testimonies.
To show a kid that, hey, justbecause you were born into a
situation doesn't mean you haveto end up there.
And that's the same with, youknow, with the single mothers.
You know we.
You know there's a doctor, youknow I can't remember her name
we talked to her she had.
We talked when we were in theBaraboo church we were at before
(36:10):
the church soul.
We had her come in fromIllinois.
She was a single mother ofthree and she dug, she put her
claws in, dug her way out ofpoverty and started going to
school.
She was working there and goingto school taking care of three
kids and she became a doctorwell, a psychologist, but she
(36:30):
did it.
And so we had her come and talkto the young Native American
women and the black women aswell as the low income white
women that were in the community.
And we've seen the fruit ofthat.
You know, it's like a lot ofthese young ladies have gone off
to college.
One of the member of our church, she's about to go into UW
Oshkosh as a freshman and it'slike man, look at that, look at
(36:53):
God.
You know, just with the rightresources, the right education,
you can change lives.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
The right compassion the right love, the right caring
.
I mean, if we otherize them andsay those dirty black people,
they're just a bunch of sexanimals, you know?
I mean, do you knock up whenour little small community, here
we have people living out oftheir vans and 90% of them are
(37:19):
single women living with theirkids, that they don't have a
support structure to live andwork and make enough money to
have a decent house?
They have to live out of theircars and their vans?
Do we?
Why don't we go up and knock ontheir windows as Christian
believers, just knocking and sayyou know, you wouldn't be in
this position if you had beenless promiscuous or more
(37:43):
forgiving of your husband orwhatever?
I mean the reasons, whatever wehave in our brain, instead of
being compassionate, like a lotof the members in our community,
to their credit, are, they'retrying to do something to help
those people.
They're trying to do like yourministry is trying to help, ways
that they can do, things thatwill give some hope, that will
(38:03):
give the people that are inthose position a reason to
believe that someone else givesa darn about them and wants a
better thing for them, wants tohelp them achieve and, as you're
saying right, what do you seeyourself?
As Well, a lot of these kidsdon't see themselves as anything
except trash.
(38:23):
you know, just for trash thatcan be thrown away by the rest
of the world and there's no oneout there that's gonna help me.
No one cares.
So why should I?
Why, what does it matter?
I might as well have sex.
At least I feel good for, youknow, a couple of minutes.
That's something better than Ihave otherwise, or they're just
you know.
What other thing do I have?
(38:43):
Except at least, if I do this Icould get a little more money.
Maybe we could afford anapartment.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
That's all they know.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
My sister had multiple kids and you know I
ended up she had a husband thatwas abusive and left her.
You know she actually kickedhim out because he was so
abusive and then all she had wasaid for, you know, for children
with dependent children.
So she lived on AFDC andbecause of that didn't have the
time or the resources to learn atrade.
(39:12):
So when those kids were finallyall gone she didn't have that
money coming in.
She had to take jobs.
As you know, she worked at amotel, you know, cleaning things
.
She could do that.
But I don't know if any of youhave tried to have that kind of
job and live on the pay scalethat those jobs you know afford
to pay or you know warrant topay you can't live with.
(39:32):
You know where's the rentthat's gonna be affordable?
Where are the vehicles that aregonna be affordable to be able
to get you reliably back andforth to work?
Where are the you knowgroceries that need to be put on
the table?
How do you afford all that?
I've done studies of that.
If you make, you know, even $15an hour, which are pushing for,
you know, to be the new minimumwage, and getting pushed back
(39:55):
on it even at $15 an hour.
When you start looking at allthe things that a person needs
to have in order to get along,you know, and when you can say
to people that you'll make moremoney, you'll have a better
lifestyle by having more kids.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
And that's where people turn.
Like you said, the compassionpiece, people turn a blind eye.
So, like, what do people do?
What do cities and towns andstate do?
They'll start they say, oh,we're finna, build some housing,
right, but it's not affordablehousing.
And so what do they do?
They turn a blind eye bypricing people right out of
their community.
You know I've seen that in thetown that I lived in.
(40:34):
I look at Baraboo.
You know they're pricing peopleright out of the community.
You know like all these greatnew apartments are coming up but
no one can afford them on $15an hour.
And you know it's like if youdon't see the problem, there is
no problem, cause people takeblind eyes to such things as
poverty cause.
If you poverty, homelessness,hunger, you know you turn a
(40:57):
blind eye to it.
Because if you see it as a city, state, municipality, you gotta
address it.
And when you gotta address it,that means it's gonna cost you
money.
And then, of course, dependingon who's on the city state
governing boards or who's themayor or whoever, whatever, they
have other agendas.
Oh, we wanna build this, wewanna do that, you know.
But everything but acknowledgedthe poor and impoverished.
(41:20):
You know the Bible says hey,you know we need to look out to
the widow and the poor and thefatherless, we have to look
after them.
But people, these are towns andplaces where there's like 50
churches but yet no one reallywants to do a thing about it.
You know.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
And the people that do wanna do something about it
are so few and, you know, aresometimes even misdirected
themselves in terms of what thebest thing to do is.
You know what would help.
Where are the groups?
Of homeless people that are,you know, consulted as a focus
group, if you will.
You know what would help themost.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Exactly, you know that's a great point.
There's always focus groups onpoverty, but majority of those
focus group participants aren'tactually in it.
You know they can testify towhat they've seen, or I know
someone.
There may be a couple sprinkledin there, but you know it's
like I tell you, one of ourbiggest struggles is, you know,
as a ministry, is financial help.
(42:19):
You know, of course, a lot ofpeople, these corporate donors,
they give to these major things.
But and we're saying, hey, youknow, we wanna provide for the
homeless, we wanna provide, youknow, we wanna address hunger,
we wanna address homelessness,we wanna address these issues.
You know, like, again, likewith a social, racial, economic
inequalities, we wanna addressthese issues.
(42:41):
But you know what they note.
They're out when it comes togiving us what, donating money
to us.
Well, you're a church.
And again, it's like if youlook in these, like I'm taking
my bylaws, our church bylawseverywhere, like look, this is
written into our bylaws, what wedo.
We're not a church, we're aministry.
And of course, a lot of peoplehave a different problem
(43:04):
differentiating ministry,outreach ministry and a church,
and so that's there, out fromgiving us money, like you know,
love, you know just people candonate tens of thousands of
dollars to the zoo, but you know, and then they'll give a few
hundred bucks to homeless people, and I have a problem with that
.
And so you know, of course Ican't I won't call people out by
(43:26):
name, but I know of people thatdo that.
You know, they'll give tens ofthousands of dollars to zoos and
art museums and all thesedifferent kinds of things that
are, you know, but they won't,they'll give very minimal to
people in the world.
And again, and that's sad, youknow, and you know, even when it
comes to grants for thesethings, the grants go to the
(43:49):
same people.
Now, you know, of course, likethey're putting a loophole in
grants where it says, oh, theseare reimbursable grants, meaning
that you buy or pay forsomething and then we'll
reimburse you.
If we had ten thousand dollarsto put a program in place, we
wouldn't need the grant, youknow.
So that, again, it's like thesesystemic and systematic ways of
(44:12):
pushing black minority, evenlow income white people, to the
bottom or out of the picture.
And so is.
And again, what do you do whenyou are?
When the doors have been shut,it's just you and your old lady
laying in an apartment thatyou're about to get kicked out
of.
Y'all go and mess around.
What are you going to do?
(44:36):
And it's almost it's like notfor the sake of even having you
know, because, again, it's a lotof homeless women with children
that don't even qualify forAFDC because they don't have the
proper address or they can'tget the proper identification or
it's something that would.
It's few things that prohibit,but it's a few that don't
(44:56):
qualify and so, and it's likeit's just a sad thing.
So, you know, we againaddressing the root cause, you
know, of a matter which is aresources education, you know,
in a non-discriminate, you knowthing.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Well, you know, as always, when we start these
conversations and today, ifyou've missed it, we've been
talking about S-E-X.
That's right, s-e-x.
So this can be now called thesex episode, which you know
they'd say in Hollywood thethings to really get people
going.
You got to have sex and you gotto have dogs.
(45:35):
You want people to watch, yougot to have those two things.
So maybe we'll talk about dogssometime.
But, as always, thoseconversations are not as simple
as the thing, the word itself.
You know I hope I think we'vetouched on a whole bunch of the
surface things that each one ofthose is a topic in itself, but
(45:57):
there's, it's not as simple asjust, oh, those people need to
get the zipper shut.
Or oh, those people need torealize that.
You know, I worked for a livingtoo.
Or those people you know thosepeople there's the problem right
there too those people insteadof Cassandra, instead of you
know, lily, instead of Ann,whatever, you know Ann, have you
(46:23):
met Ann and her little baby,Chuck, little Chucky, he's cute
as saying, yeah, she, they don'thave a, she doesn't have a dad.
The dad isn't with them anymore.
Oh my, how can we help?
No, that's far too often.
That is not the response tothat thing Far too often.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Well, they should have cut a wooder, right, yeah,
they should have did this, theycould have it, and it's like,
yeah, it's like if they wereafforded that education again,
just resources and educationleads to better decisions.
And you know, of course, wheneducation and resources are
taken away from people, you knowit's gonna it's gonna lead to
another path.
And, of course, and of course,when we're talking about sex,
(47:06):
just well, the flesh issomething else.
The flesh leads us to do somereally bad things.
You know the natural sex, right, just say, really, I guess,
when you're having really goodSEX, right, it's gonna lead to
people doing some really badthings to get that, you know.
And, of course, you know theold adages and old jokes.
(47:28):
I don't want to, I don't wantto say again, but it's just
simply, sex is, has, can be usedas a weapon on both sides, men
and women.
They use it for, they use toget what they want and need in
the course of sex is to beenjoyed in a responsible manner.
And that's where you know.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
The oldest profession in the world?
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, it's.
Sometimes you have sex as aprofession to some, you know, in
a, because we're talking aboutpeople living, people living in
the flesh and not in the spirit,corporate world and all use it
Search, as always.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
so another rousing talk that you know it spurs
people to have about how big theproblem is and what the roots
of it are.
And if we're wrong, we'll talkwith anyone.
That doesn't agree.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
It's a great chance.
We are right.
Exactly, I mean that's what weare all the time.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Just I'm, you know, I'm just a guy with an opinion.
But you know, check it out.
Check out if my opinions holdwater, check out if Antoine's
opinions hold water.
That's the real test.
We used to say proof is in thepudding, right?
So look at the pudding.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Research for yourself .
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Research for yourself .
We have this thing called theinternet.
Now I hear the internet thingthat you know.
You don't believe everything onthe internet.
Do some research.
It's not just one source, it'snot Carl thinks or Raoul thinks,
it's not, it's about, you know,looking at the big picture and
thinking about the big pictureAlways.
Yes, hopefully some thingsresonate with you, right?
(49:08):
So All right, antoine, always,always, one of the best parts of
my day is getting happy talkswith you.
So here on Frame of BrothersSame year.
So, and I'm Raoul Lebrash.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Antoine Hardman senior.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Hey, we're getting the thing right.
We're going to get that.
It's going to be like yeah.
I'm Raoul Lebrash, and you knowwe can develop some kind of
personality or something.
So hey, man, you have a goodday.
Okay, you too, man.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Thank you.
Thank you, you as well, man.
Just love and prayers arealways to you and your family,
man, so we'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
And you as well.
You give my best to Ramona andhope everything goes well and
you have a great week and agreat weekend and folks, thanks
for listening, thanks forwatching us on Frame of
Reference.
And, raoul, like I said, hopegets you thinking and talking.
That's really what it's allabout Peace to you.
Listen, it's well for you.
(50:03):
You see me and my stupid beard.
I don't know what it is, morethan that, probably.
Huh.
Just thanks, brother, take care, see you next week.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Hey, you too, man, Thank you.
Let's have it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
So good morning, good evening, good afternoon.
Wherever you are listening toFrama reference coming together,
it's me, raul Lebrouche.
And who are you against, sir?
I, I.
Why can't I remember your name?
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Antoine Hallman senior.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Oh yeah, that's right , that's fine, that is your name
.
I'm glad you remember your name.
I just I can, you know, help me, antoine, I cannot figure out a
way to segue from I'm RaulLebrouche.
Maybe we just I'd say, if I sayRaul Lebrouche, you just right
away say I'm Anton and I'mAntoine Hallman.
Or if you say I'm Anton, I justremember saying I'm Raul
Lebrouche.
Would that work?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, it'll fit, we'll figure it out, man.
Okay yeah, just nice to be up,man.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We're still new at this.
I mean what we've been doingthis for almost what?
Four or five months orsomething like that.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I think yes, I got probably like a fifth, sixteenth
episode or something like thatyeah.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Something, something around there, which is, I mean
that means we've got 16 hours orso, maybe more, involved in
talking with each other, and thegood news is we are still
talking to each other.
I think you know we haven'tsaid, oh man, what the hell does
he think he's talking about?
Or whatever happens with mostpeople.
I can't think of many people Icould have a 16 hour
(01:29):
conversation with, Can you?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So no, no, my wife, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
But yeah, but those are sometimes you have to have
them, right, I guess we have tohave those used to.
But so we were talkingbeforehand, we were actually
going to, we kind of wanted tohit on the Black Lives Matter
some more, but I mean we need tohit on that as well as
everything else we've talked toup until this point.
But we started talking aboutthe big S yes, the big S, and I
(01:58):
don't mean safety, I don't meansocialism, I'm not talking about
any other S than sex and theimpact that sex has on our world
today, and I think there's adifferent perspective of sex.
I can start out from thingsthat I've heard, things that I
(02:20):
know are believed by people frommy side of the racial spectrum
or skin color, let's say skincolor spectrum.
Okay, that sex in the AfricanAmerican community is much more
promiscuous than it is in thewhite community.
That you know, the, that youknow.
(02:43):
Black people have kids, you know, because it gives them more of
a financial advantage, becausethey can collect more AFDC or
whatever they're calling welfarefor for families.
These days it seems like thatprogram changes regularly.
Anyways, that that, to me,fundamentally, is disrespectful,
because it doesn't equate thehumanity of the situation to the
(03:09):
reality of the situation.
Are there people that collectmore?
Is it possible to collect moreaid for the community, aid for
family dependent children Ifthey have more kids?
Of course it is.
Each of those kids is worth acertain amount of money and the
government recognizes that itcosts money to raise them.
But the quote unquote.
You know, welfare queen orwhatever, you know people want
(03:30):
to categorize that that that isnot by any means the majority.
That's a small, you know.
Look at the statistics.
Don't.
Don't just believe that.
You know that's a thing thatgets you pissed off.
So you're going to spread itaround.
The statistics do not supportthat as being the reason.
Black people, or people ofcolor in general, have a lot of
(03:53):
babies.
It's more about.
You know what you were talkingabout earlier.
You know our view towardssexuality, our view towards our
primal.
You know it is.
I mean, the little known secretin the biblical community is,
back in Old Testament days therewas a temple brothel.
There was a temple prostitutethat was available outside of
(04:19):
the places of worship.
So now, whether that was everycommunity, the Bible doesn't say
, but it's one of the reasonsthat one of the central
characters now let you read itand figure it out.
You know that he was convictedof the fact that he was
responsible for a woman that hadbeen married to one of his sons
and was no longer alive and shevery much, and very rightfully
(04:43):
so, tried to convince him thathe needed to take responsibility
for her.
You know, she didn't have anyother means of supporting
herself.
So she asked for him to pleasetake care of her, and he didn't
want anything to do with that.
So she convinced her, you know,got an idea that she would pose
(05:03):
as a temple prostitute and inthe process of that she
collected, I believe, a ring andone other piece of his personal
possessions that somehow shewas able to get away from it.
I forget that part of the story,but basically that was used
then as evidence.
Down the road she veiledherself in a way that he
(05:23):
couldn't see who she was.
But he had sex with her and youknow she was able then to.
I think, if I remember maybeyou remember this story, antoine
, and how she then was pregnantand came to him and said you
know, you're the father of thisbaby now.
And he said give me a break,how could that possibly be?
And she showed him then hissignet ring and the other.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yes, yeah, of course I know exactly what you mean.
The story you're talking aboutin the course of what it was, is
the young lady that posedherself as a prostitute.
She was actually the wife ofone of his sons, but his son
died before they had children,and so she needed a child.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Okay, okay, to continue his lineage.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Right.
And so what she did?
She posed herself as aprostitute and, of course, the
man, he came into a town.
He didn't have any provision topay her, so he gave her
something to hold until he cameback.
And then, of course, she came,and then she told him about, you
know, the thing that he hadgiven her.
I'm trying to think of the name, but I know the story, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And it was a fairly prominent character within
biblical history.
And the reason I tell thatstory too is because it tells
you something about ourrecognition of the importance of
sexuality and our you know, ourrecognition as men, the need to
provide a means for, you know,satisfying those desires.
Right, they recognize that, somuch so that a temple prostitute
(06:57):
was an acceptable provision.
And, being a theater person, Ijust I have this, you know way
of thinking about things.
It's like, you know, imagine iftoday we were going to church
and we said to our wife okay,honey, you and the kids go ahead
, I'm just going to stop herewith Bertha, and you know we're
going to, you know, or you knowJaney, or you know fire,
whatever.
And you know, I just I got alittle something to take care of
(07:18):
it.
You said, and you know, just bea couple of minutes.
And the wife turns back andsays, yeah, with you, it'd be
like 35 seconds.
You know what I mean.
Can you imagine what that wouldbe like today if we continue to
do that?
But it was a part of the wholeprocess of religiosity.
At one point it was.
So let's, let's deal with thereality of where this thing
(07:39):
comes from, how far back it goesand instead of just you know,
brushing it off as a well,they're just promiscuous or
they're, they're just, you know,whatever, they don't care.
Well, you know, yeah, it.
Probably you knew someeducation about the importance
of when you take your, when Iput it out there, when you pull
your zipper down, you better bein a position to be able to
(08:02):
support the possibility of whatmight happen.
Or you know, even if you'redoing protection, that that
still may not protect you inevery instance, as it doesn't
take responsibility for that.
And marriage hopefully providesan opportunity for that child
to have some protection and forthat family to have some
(08:24):
protection of surviving Afterthat life is brought into the
world.
That's the core of it.
So if we don't recognize, forwhatever reasons, whether it's,
you know, I have the right to dowhatever I want sexuality as
part of who I am.
I need to be able to explorethat.
Okay, right, no one's denyingthat.
(08:44):
But again, with our eye reallybig on this, we have rights, yes
, but every single right youhave carries with it a
responsibility.
I have the right to protectmyself and my family, but if I
shoot somebody in what Iperceive as being a threat to my
(09:06):
family.
I now have a responsibility forthat action I do, whether I can
justify it or not, and that'swhat this particular issue sex
is not about the physical actWith for some men takes 35
seconds to get through rightit's about the longer lasting
responsibility that that actentails, and God knew it.
(09:28):
God, right away, said this issomething that it needs to be
held as holy.
This is something that needs tobe done as a glorification, and
we don't, we don't, we don'tglory.
We sully it by ourIrresponsibility and how we deal
with it.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, you know what what's sex was supposed to be?
No, according to biblicalstandards, is the act between a
man and a woman To replicateguys image throughout the earth.
You know, and of course, welook back to what you were
saying earlier.
Just, uh, you know, we talkabout sex today, you know, I
(10:09):
think it simply starts with thelack of education of about sex.
You know the importance of whatit really means and you know,
course, when we talking aboutimpoverished communities,
whether it's white or black, youknow, I think just the
education is missing.
You know, course, like you know, we can see these things
Prominent in bigger cities, butyou go to a place like Kansas,
(10:32):
nebraska, iowa, you'll see thesame thing in the white
community.
So it's not.
Yeah, because because, as awhole, we know no stats show, as
a whole, we know that there'smore white people on welfare
than black, and but you know,the thing is, you know, now it's
like people are saying that ohno, they'll say that the black,
(10:54):
black people have, black womenhave babies for the sole purpose
of Receiving welfare.
I say is, is, is, is, is a, isa laughing.
I can, you can laugh at it withpain because of the lack of you
have to have like a bird's eyeview of the thing you know when
you live in these impoverishedcommunities.
(11:15):
Right, there's no resource,there's no Education, there's no
hope.
What else is it to do but messaround?
Do it out of boredom.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
I know what we can do , right now, whoa, what man
wouldn't go for that.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Come on, you know Like again, it's like out of
boredom, out of education, it'sout of, you know, out of a, out
of not having enough exposure todo something different.
You know, when you feel yourtime with things of a
Self-building or biblicalknowledge or spiritual growth or
something like that, it takesaway those physical urges, you
(11:53):
know, and of course that's whereI think it starts, you know the
lack of it.
And I think these things andagain just me personally, I
think these things aresystematic and deliberately done
.
The resources are taken out ofa black communities, like you
see, you drive around Chicago,you drive around Milwaukee.
There's really no clinicsanymore.
And of course, this whole thingagainst Planned Parenthood,
(12:16):
this attack on them, where theyare First forced to close a lot
of their things, and then, ofcourse, it says there's no
education.
And then, of course, like, sexeducation has stopped being
talked about as a sex between aman and woman, but it become
more of a sexuality thing orSexual identity thing than
actual the education of sex.
(12:36):
And then, of course, even goingbeyond sex, the, the, the, like
you said, the responsibility ofthe, the act.
There's a strong chance thatyou will have a baby or you will
get pregnant, and then it'slike then what?
But again it starts in thechurch because now and no,
things have become so secularthat you know the Bible says no,
(12:57):
no, he's a goddess againstfornication, meaning premarital
sex of people that's not marriedliving together.
Hey, let's face it, because weall done it.
You know.
Thing is, you know I, prior toour knowledge in the Bible, we
all had sex without beforemarriage.
Both my sons were born out ofwedlock or before I was married.
(13:17):
And the thing is I didn't knowthe truth then.
But now that I know the truth,I know that it's wrong to do.
Yes, I've changed my values,I've changed my lifestyle, I've
changed just my overall view onthe matter.
And the thing is, in the churchtoday, you make it okay to do
(13:37):
what you wanna do, like humanismit says, hey, do whatever feels
good to you, and that goesagainst the knowledge of God.
But you know, and the thing is,when it comes to sex, and
particularly sex in the blackcommunity, yes, it's, I wouldn't
say a matter of it's, again outof boredom, you know, lack of
(14:00):
education, lack of exposure tonew things, you have like say,
you may have too much time onyour hand, because again, all
these things come down to aboiling point of the have to
have, nots right, you know, Ican't get a bus pass to.
The jobs that are available aremiles away from where I live.
You know, then, of course, Ihave two children already.
(14:23):
So, in order for me to takethis job, you know, of course,
that black woman, she wants totake that job.
But you know, the thing is nowit's childcare.
Then, of course, you'rebattling and just I've seen this
with my own eyes.
You know where no women, whiteand black, they battle with
these state agencies overbenefits.
Well, if you do this, you can'thave that.
(14:44):
If you do this, you can't.
If you go to work, we're gonnacut your pay.
If you go to work,unfortunately we can't give you
this and we can only give youthis for childcare.
It's always that thing thatstops the full blown growth, and
I think it's by, I believe it'sby design.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
And so when we're talking about this, how can it
not be by design when itincentivizes staying in that
situation?
I mean, you've talked aboutthat before, how it's also
incentivization to not have thefather live at home.
So we talk about you know allthese kids that are growing up
without dads.
Well, our programs forsupporting the kids incentivize
(15:23):
that.
And let's face it, even whenthe father's working and being a
part of the home, they stillare at the lowest level of wage,
earning many, many, many, many,many times.
And let's just not even talkabout that spectrum for a moment
.
Let's talk about the spectrumof our church, and you know both
you know, antoine and I talkenough about God from a
(15:46):
perspective of we're not peoplethat haven't run through the
Bible a couple of times.
Okay, it is a wonderful workand it is a living word of God.
And if you don't accept that asa reasonable hypothesis, read
it yourself.
Until you know, and have readit from cover to cover, you
won't understand what that means.
(16:07):
So okay, that out of the way.
What I am against, against andwill be against is religiosity,
because religiosity has beenferocitical since way before
Jesus's time where there's a setof things that have been
decided upon as being the way tobehave.
(16:28):
It's, you know, it's a code ofbehavior, a code of ethics, a
code of morality and propriety,and that when you think that
that's what makes you closer toGod and believe that those
things are what make you closerto God, you are completely
missing the boat, because JesusChrist is the way to God.
(16:49):
It's the.
He is the way, the truth andthe life, and that's not.
That's not trying to sayfriends of mine, listeners, that
are Muslim, need to.
You know, I'm not judging, Ican't judge, it's not my job to
judge.
But I say all that becausethere are plenty of instances in
which Christian men have notfor any other purpose than
(17:10):
because they lust after someonewho is not their wife, who is
attractive in some way, who saysthe right things to them and
you know it takes advantage oftheir personal vulnerabilities,
who is availing themselves andit could be a man just as easily
as it could be a woman who isdissatisfied in their marriage.
(17:32):
And, oh my gosh, doesn't ithappen periodically that they
are leaders, pastors, headpastors, willow Creek, the
Bakers, jimmy Swagger we arereplete with examples in
contemporary society that aremen of God that have succumbed
to something that is so powerful, and that's what we need to
(17:55):
realize.
Sexuality is so powerful in thedesire for what sex provides,
and you know we can go into thatif you want to about the whole
power play that's, you know,present in sexuality, in sex
with people, but let's not gothere quite yet.
The thing that really gets mewith all that is we don't
(18:15):
realize that this is not a blackand white problem.
This is not a black.
People are, you know, badbecause they do this.
We all get hung up on sex andwe all want to treat it like
it's.
You know you're such a dirtyperson for doing that.
Now, you know it's education,it's accountability.
(18:36):
When a religious leader can saythings like you don't
understand because you're not atthe spiritual level that I'm at
, you know that I this is okayfor me because of where I'm at
with my spiritual walk, that'snothing more than arrogance.
Come on, and where are thepeople, where are the Christian
brothers and sisters that sitand say whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
(18:58):
whoa.
You don't get to pull that cardon me, no, let's look at the
Bible together, okay, and youshow me your advanced
spirituality and how that holdsup in the context of this verse
and this verse and this verse.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
How does that consist ?
You know, the Bible says, yeah,that God is not a respect to a
person's right.
And so we are at all treatpeople the same.
And of course, when it comes toleaders in the church having
sex, I would be with lay members.
That is the ultimate no, no,you know.
And.
But the thing is, you know, ofcourse, like again, the Bible
(19:35):
continuously talks about,particularly the apostle Paul
talks about, you know, living inthe spirit and not in the flesh
, you know.
And that's where a lot ofthings go wrong.
Of course, no, the Bible tellsus, hey, there's no temptation,
that's not common to man, andthe Lord will make a way out of
it, you know.
(19:55):
But the thing is, you know, wesuccumb to lustful desires.
He said when we Bible also sayswhen we let ourselves go to
lustful desires, that's wheresin abounds.
And but the thing is, when itcomes to those things, it comes
back to the education piece.
You know, of course, that's whyyou see the breakdown in the
country as a whole.
You know, it's going to startwith the individual.
(20:15):
You know, it's going to startwith the family and of course,
the family structure these dayshas changed.
You know, it's no longer theman and the wife living in the
home together is is no, a singleparent, is a two of the same
sex, or is a dysfunctional manand woman living together?
And they're young, they arevery, they're getting younger
(20:37):
and younger, and so what it is?
There's no education there, andso what happens?
You know, there's a lot of,there's a lot of.
You heard that old adage.
You know people, a lot ofcouples, they fight, and the
other F word, that's all they do, that's all they do is fight
and the other F word, what it'sonly rhymes with truck, no doubt
(20:59):
.
So that's all they do.
And again it comes back to lackof education, it comes to lack
of resources, it comes to, youknow, just not knowing, lack of
exposure.
And again it starts in theindividual, it starts in the
family, then of course, itstarts in the community and then
it leads right back to thechurch.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And it perpetuates things.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
It's hard.
And that's where, you know, youstart to see the.
You know, lately you arestarting to see the biggest
melting pot of problems thedivision in the church.
You know, and of course now,from a standpoint of ministry,
where my wife and I are, it isgetting harder and harder.
To this I won't say this, Iwon't say it, I'm just gonna say
it.
Yeah, it's getting harder andharder to disciple people
(21:44):
because they see how the churchbehaves now, or that's what they
see is the image of how thechurch behaves.
You know so, like.
But instead it's like you knowhow they say it with oh, it's
one like, with bad cops, it'sone bad app, don't let one bad
apple destroy the whole bunch.
The same applies to churches.
You know, like, yes, you seewhat you see on TV and the news,
but you can't put us all in thesame boat, right?
(22:05):
And you know, of course, likeyou know, as a practice in my
ministry is, you know, menminister to men and women
minister to women.
A woman will come to me withsomething.
I'll say, hey, let's talk to mywife or our senator, one of
them, minister Tanisha or pastorLuanne, I'll send them there.
(22:26):
And same with men coming to mywife or one of the other lady
people in authority or inposition in our ministry.
That's how we do things tominimize that very thing,
because we've seen it happenreal time, with our own eyes,
where a lead pastor or pastorhas had an adulterous affair
(22:49):
with one of his members of hischurch.
We've seen it and that's alsoanother reason why my wife and I
we go out in tubes.
You rarely see me without mywife.
You rarely see me without mywife, and it's just because you
see these things and say that.
You know we thank God forJehovah Nisi, who is our banner,
our protector.
He protects us against theworld, he protects us against
(23:11):
our own flesh, he protects usagainst our minds.
He fights this battle for us.
But you know, when we're talkingabout sex in the church, it's
very real.
You know.
Of course, like you know, we alot of pastors dismiss, talking
about the things that hurt theharder God.
And that is the look at Romansone, starting around verse 16
(23:35):
all the way through the end, andthen of course he's talking
about fornication, same sexstuff.
He's talking about just havinga wrong mind and he says if you
continue these things, I'llleave you to a wrap up a mind to
do those things that are notconvenient for you.
Now, me as a person, just me asa pastor, I'll say this I
(23:56):
believe every single word of theBible, pertaining to every
single area of life, and Istrongly believe when the Bible
says in Luke six, startingaround verse 30, that I am not a
judge.
I am not a judge, and so it'slike, regardless of what a
person does or has done, we lovethem.
(24:19):
How can?
Because, whether it's a becauseI've seen churches shun a
single mother because all shehad a baby without a husband and
so she can't participate inchurch activities, or she shows
up pregnant and she's notmarried, but so the church shuns
her, that is, oh my goodness,it's like you basically turning
(24:41):
away someone that's seeking God.
And that's what Jesus, when heripped the Pharisees apart, he
was saying hey, people aretrying to enter the kingdom of
God and you won't stop them andyou yourself won't even come in.
And so it's like we are notjudges, we love people, because
deliverance only comes by love,and so when we can get to a
space of love, it'll diminish alot of the problems that we have
(25:05):
in this world today, whetherit's the preconceived notions,
whether it's the misinformation,the disinformation, the
misconceptions, the flat outlies.
When we start loving peoplewe'll get to the love is.
The lack of love is at the rootof every problem.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Well, in this problem of pro-life versus pro-choice,
pro-birth, really pro-women'srights versus pro-life, there
are all those complexinteractions of behavior and
needs and all of them boil downto lack of love.
(25:47):
When it comes down to, we as achurch have caused the problems
that there are in thispromiscuity issue and this sex
issue and the issue of who hasthe right to their own body.
We have caused that by, forhundreds of years, if not
thousands, treating women andmen who didn't have a right
(26:12):
understanding of sex or who, putinto a situation, as you know,
say they can't even affordNetflix.
So what are they gonna do?
There's only so much time inthe day, and if I had the
difference between sitting onthe couch and watching
(26:32):
television and having sex withmy wife, I know what would win
100% of the time.
But we're also in a positionthat, because we're married, if
something happens, we can do theright thing for that baby and
there's just so many ways totreat that, and it's complex
(26:53):
because it all comes down towell, where are the support
people for that?
That's gonna say, how can I helpyou?
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Exactly, and so it's like the support should be
coming in before the child iseven conceived.
Again, the lack of education,the lack of resources.
Because, again, when you haveeducation, with the education
comes better decisions and withthose better decisions comes a
change in trajectory in yourlife and of course it's a lot of
(27:22):
things that affect that.
And again it's like we weretalking about Black Lives Matter
and of course that's what theyare fighting the systematic and
targeted demise of Black people.
And that's where, again, a lotof resources, a lot of education
, a lot of things are beingtaken out of clinics, are being
(27:43):
taken away out of communities.
You gotta travel X amount ofway, or if you go to a space and
you get mistreated so bad thatyou don't wanna go back.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Or you make it more necessary to have that baby.
I mean you, just what are yougonna do so that perpetuates?
It's a property grader, makesthe children's lives more
horrible.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
And even if a say, a young couple decide to have an
abortion, there's no money topay for it.
There's no money to pay for it.
And so it's like, again theproblems, again they all stem
back to know the have and havenots, know that poverty,
stricken areas.
(28:24):
Yes, you're gonna see morechildren, then you're gonna see
more poverty, you're gonna seemore hungry children, and then
again it's just like thisperpetual hole that's being dug.
And then, of course, like youknow, we were talking about the
distribution of wealth in thecountry.
No one, everyone's saying theyhate the most.
People are saying like they'rejust doing it to stay on welfare
.
I don't, I've known some to dothat, yes, but we also know in
(28:50):
my ministry, my wife and I'sministry, because when her
ministry is shined and she dealswith teen you know BIPOC, you
know black indigenous people,color women she deals with black
, even in the shelter.
She deals with a low incomewhite women, and the struggle is
the same lack of resources,lack of education.
(29:11):
It's perpetuated and it's, Ithink it's deliberate, and you
know, of course, and then it'slike only one side of the
problem is actually pointed outoh, they're having babies to
stay on welfare.
No, they stay on.
It's like we know women in ourministry are saying that they
want change, they want, theywant to change, and then,
(29:34):
unfortunately, like in mostimpoverished communities, the
family structure is so messed upthat you know it's hard to find
a babysitter, or you don'ttrust your baby with certain
people.
You know what I mean.
So you're stuck, you are juststuck, and it's like there's no
hope.
And then that's why you see thesuicide rate where it is.
You know cause people are losinghope, and people that, like you
(29:57):
said, this is the richestcountry in the world.
There's no way that you knowthe way some people live in
certain areas of the countryshould be living.
And it's just again.
And then so like when you havea group like Black Lives Matter
that points these things out,they are targeted and it's now
it's reverse racism, it's a youknow, oh, white lives matter too
(30:21):
.
And it's like, oh, you say alllives matter.
Then, of course, and it's justlike, well, if all lives matter,
then it wouldn't be, you don'tneed, for black lives matter,
then it's just.
It's almost like you pick afight to take your focus off the
bigger problem.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
And that's where, of course that's where we are, and
then, of course, even in thisdiscussion, where are the people
having this discussion?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Right, yeah, you know , and it's like man, it's like
you know, when you expose aproblem, when you expose the
issue, you become the problem,and that's where we are.
And it's like you know, whennow, the fact that there's a
young, young Caucasian or youngwhite people wanting to know
more about black history, theyare now being targeted, they are
(31:06):
now.
Now it's like this woke thing,this and that and the other,
it's like I wish people wouldjust wake up and understand that
the spirit of division is real.
They got to understand thatthing.
This is a spiritual battle, youknow, and that's where we
really need to get people.
I want to say that's what wewere talking about the church.
There's so much things going onin the church that people are
doing churchy things, thinkingthat they are going to be saved.
(31:28):
It's all if I joined this group, if I joined that group, if I
joined a choir, if I joined it.
That doesn't get you saved,cause, when people start joining
all these different things andsaying, oh well, I'm a part of
this at the church, I'm a partof that at the church, I do this
at the church, you're basicallysaying, oh well, these are the
things that I need to take toget me saved, when it actually
is Jesus Christ who saves you.
(31:48):
And if it's him who saves you,if he's your salvation, if he's
your redeemer, if he's yourtrust, then you would live
according to his principles thebest that you can, because again
, we all fall short of the gloryof God.
But if we're trying our best tostrive to have that
Christ-like-mindedness, a lot ofthese things wouldn't exist.
But of course, in the church nowwe got churches actually that
(32:11):
have a militias.
There's white churches in theSouth that have militias.
They're teaching the wrongthings and of course the church
used to be the beacon of thecommunity.
People that needed help wouldactually run to the church for
help.
But now the church is a hookupspot.
The church is a resource center, the church is a networking
event.
(32:32):
Everybody come to church butfor the reason to know Jesus,
and that's where it's a sad day.
That, of course.
Again, individual, family,community church.
And then you got town, city,village, state, country, and
that's where we are.
And but you know the church.
(32:55):
Yeah, of course I love the bodyof Christ, I love them all, but
there's a group that isperpetuating they're not
perpetuating the very nature ofChrist and so I argue about the
wrong things too Exactly, and sothat's where you know, again, a
(33:15):
lot of these things stem fromyou know, of course, like you
talk about community resources,but then you also talk about the
church teaching the rightthings.
And of course you know we asFaithWorks Ministries.
You know we when we have theseother groups to teach about life
and finance and things likethat.
(33:36):
But it's like before, it's likewhen, dependent on the person
or where they are in a life, yougot to teach them about Jesus
first, because, again, it's likewhen they know Jesus and accept
Jesus as their Lord and Savior,the Holy Ghost comes upon or
the Holy Spirit comes part oftheir lives or comes into them
and he will guide them into all.
Truth is what we hope and prayfor, and so it's just we have to
(34:02):
get back to the basics ofteaching Because, again, like
parents are getting younger andyounger, like grandparents are
now grandparents.
When you say grandma, right,you used to think, oh, 70, 60,
70, 80 year old grandma.
Grandma is now 28, 29 years oldand the life lessons that used
to be handed down got lost.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
And so you see, that Seriously 28 or 29, you've seen
that young, so that means thekids are having sex at 12,.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
for God's sake, 12, 13, 14, yep, and that's where we
are.
And then the 28 year oldgrandma.
She didn't have the knowledgethat, again, they started to get
younger and younger.
She had to have kids at 15, 16,14 herself.
So that's you know.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's not even talking about generational rape,
which is a whole anotherspectrum of problems that causes
the same physical problem, butit's again that generational
lack of education, the lack ofresources, the lack of exposure
to new, exciting things.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And that's what my wife and I try to do with these
young people is exposing the newthings.
We try to talk about places youknow like.
What are you like?
No, besides, you know, ofcourse it's easy to say what do
you want to be when you grow up.
Then it's like you had to takeit a step deeper.
Really, where would you like tolive?
How would you like to live?
What do you do you see yourselfwith children later on in life,
you know, do you see yourself ina different?
(35:27):
What do you love to do?
What do you see yourself?
And then you try to spark somethought.
You try to spark some somethingwithin them to make them strive
to one of them Some hope.
And then you bring in somesubject matter experts to speak
on certain things, to again togive them hope.
You know, and of course, mywife and I's lives.
You know we can talk, we shareour darkest, dirtiest
(35:50):
testimonies.
To show a kid that, hey, justbecause you were born into a
situation doesn't mean you haveto end up there.
And that's the same with, youknow, with the single mothers.
You know we.
You know there's a doctor, youknow I can't remember her name
we talked to her she had.
We talked when we were in theBaraboo church we were at before
(36:10):
the church soul.
We had her come in fromIllinois.
She was a single mother ofthree and she dug, she put her
claws in, dug her way out ofpoverty and started going to
school.
She was working there and goingto school taking care of three
kids and she became a doctorwell, a psychologist, but she
(36:30):
did it.
And so we had her come and talkto the young Native American
women and the black women aswell as the low income white
women that were in the community.
And we've seen the fruit ofthat.
You know, it's like a lot ofthese young ladies have gone off
to college.
One of the member of our church, she's about to go into UW
Oshkosh as a freshman and it'slike man, look at that, look at
(36:53):
God.
You know, just with the rightresources, the right education,
you can change lives.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
The right compassion the right love, the right caring
.
I mean, if we otherize them andsay those dirty black people,
they're just a bunch of sexanimals, you know?
I mean, do you knock up whenour little small community, here
we have people living out oftheir vans and 90% of them are
(37:19):
single women living with theirkids, that they don't have a
support structure to live andwork and make enough money to
have a decent house?
They have to live out of theircars and their vans?
Do we?
Why don't we go up and knock ontheir windows as Christian
believers, just knocking and sayyou know, you wouldn't be in
this position if you had beenless promiscuous or more
(37:43):
forgiving of your husband orwhatever?
I mean the reasons, whatever wehave in our brain, instead of
being compassionate, like a lotof the members in our community,
to their credit, are, they'retrying to do something to help
those people.
They're trying to do like yourministry is trying to help, ways
that they can do, things thatwill give some hope, that will
(38:03):
give the people that are inthose position a reason to
believe that someone else givesa darn about them and wants a
better thing for them, wants tohelp them achieve and, as you're
saying right, what do you seeyourself?
As Well, a lot of these kidsdon't see themselves as anything
except trash.
(38:23):
you know, just for trash thatcan be thrown away by the rest
of the world and there's no oneout there that's gonna help me.
No one cares.
So why should I?
Why, what does it matter?
I might as well have sex.
At least I feel good for, youknow, a couple of minutes.
That's something better than Ihave otherwise, or they're just
you know.
What other thing do I have?
(38:43):
Except at least, if I do this Icould get a little more money.
Maybe we could afford anapartment.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
That's all they know.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
My sister had multiple kids and you know I
ended up she had a husband thatwas abusive and left her.
You know she actually kickedhim out because he was so
abusive and then all she had wasaid for, you know, for children
with dependent children.
So she lived on AFDC andbecause of that didn't have the
time or the resources to learn atrade.
(39:12):
So when those kids were finallyall gone she didn't have that
money coming in.
She had to take jobs.
As you know, she worked at amotel, you know, cleaning things
.
She could do that.
But I don't know if any of youhave tried to have that kind of
job and live on the pay scalethat those jobs you know afford
to pay or you know warrant topay you can't live with.
(39:32):
You know where's the rentthat's gonna be affordable?
Where are the vehicles that aregonna be affordable to be able
to get you reliably back andforth to work?
Where are the you knowgroceries that need to be put on
the table?
How do you afford all that?
I've done studies of that.
If you make, you know, even $15an hour, which are pushing for,
you know, to be the new minimumwage, and getting pushed back
(39:55):
on it even at $15 an hour.
When you start looking at allthe things that a person needs
to have in order to get along,you know, and when you can say
to people that you'll make moremoney, you'll have a better
lifestyle by having more kids.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
And that's where people turn.
Like you said, the compassionpiece, people turn a blind eye.
So, like, what do people do?
What do cities and towns andstate do?
They'll start they say, oh,we're finna, build some housing,
right, but it's not affordablehousing.
And so what do they do?
They turn a blind eye bypricing people right out of
their community.
You know I've seen that in thetown that I lived in.
(40:34):
I look at Baraboo.
You know they're pricing peopleright out of the community.
You know like all these greatnew apartments are coming up but
no one can afford them on $15an hour.
And you know it's like if youdon't see the problem, there is
no problem, cause people takeblind eyes to such things as
poverty cause.
If you poverty, homelessness,hunger, you know you turn a
(40:57):
blind eye to it.
Because if you see it as a city, state, municipality, you gotta
address it.
And when you gotta address it,that means it's gonna cost you
money.
And then, of course, dependingon who's on the city state
governing boards or who's themayor or whoever, whatever, they
have other agendas.
Oh, we wanna build this, wewanna do that, you know.
But everything but acknowledgedthe poor and impoverished.
(41:20):
You know the Bible says hey,you know we need to look out to
the widow and the poor and thefatherless, we have to look
after them.
But people, these are towns andplaces where there's like 50
churches but yet no one reallywants to do a thing about it.
You know.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
And the people that do wanna do something about it
are so few and, you know, aresometimes even misdirected
themselves in terms of what thebest thing to do is.
You know what would help.
Where are the groups?
Of homeless people that are,you know, consulted as a focus
group, if you will.
You know what would help themost.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Exactly, you know that's a great point.
There's always focus groups onpoverty, but majority of those
focus group participants aren'tactually in it.
You know they can testify towhat they've seen, or I know
someone.
There may be a couple sprinkledin there, but you know it's
like I tell you, one of ourbiggest struggles is, you know,
as a ministry, is financial help.
(42:19):
You know, of course, a lot ofpeople, these corporate donors,
they give to these major things.
But and we're saying, hey, youknow, we wanna provide for the
homeless, we wanna provide, youknow, we wanna address hunger,
we wanna address homelessness,we wanna address these issues.
You know, like, again, likewith a social, racial, economic
inequalities, we wanna addressthese issues.
(42:41):
But you know what they note.
They're out when it comes togiving us what, donating money
to us.
Well, you're a church.
And again, it's like if youlook in these, like I'm taking
my bylaws, our church bylawseverywhere, like look, this is
written into our bylaws, what wedo.
We're not a church, we're aministry.
And of course, a lot of peoplehave a different problem
(43:04):
differentiating ministry,outreach ministry and a church,
and so that's there, out fromgiving us money, like you know,
love, you know just people candonate tens of thousands of
dollars to the zoo, but you know, and then they'll give a few
hundred bucks to homeless people, and I have a problem with that
.
And so you know, of course Ican't I won't call people out by
(43:26):
name, but I know of people thatdo that.
You know, they'll give tens ofthousands of dollars to zoos and
art museums and all thesedifferent kinds of things that
are, you know, but they won't,they'll give very minimal to
people in the world.
And again, and that's sad, youknow, and you know, even when it
comes to grants for thesethings, the grants go to the
(43:49):
same people.
Now, you know, of course, likethey're putting a loophole in
grants where it says, oh, theseare reimbursable grants, meaning
that you buy or pay forsomething and then we'll
reimburse you.
If we had ten thousand dollarsto put a program in place, we
wouldn't need the grant, youknow.
So that, again, it's like thesesystemic and systematic ways of
(44:12):
pushing black minority, evenlow income white people, to the
bottom or out of the picture.
And so is.
And again, what do you do whenyou are?
When the doors have been shut,it's just you and your old lady
laying in an apartment thatyou're about to get kicked out
of.
Y'all go and mess around.
What are you going to do?
(44:36):
And it's almost it's like notfor the sake of even having you
know, because, again, it's a lotof homeless women with children
that don't even qualify forAFDC because they don't have the
proper address or they can'tget the proper identification or
it's something that would.
It's few things that prohibit,but it's a few that don't
(44:56):
qualify and so, and it's likeit's just a sad thing.
So, you know, we againaddressing the root cause, you
know, of a matter which is aresources education, you know,
in a non-discriminate, you knowthing.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Well, you know, as always, when we start these
conversations and today, ifyou've missed it, we've been
talking about S-E-X.
That's right, s-e-x.
So this can be now called thesex episode, which you know
they'd say in Hollywood thethings to really get people
going.
You got to have sex and you gotto have dogs.
(45:35):
You want people to watch, yougot to have those two things.
So maybe we'll talk about dogssometime.
But, as always, thoseconversations are not as simple
as the thing, the word itself.
You know I hope I think we'vetouched on a whole bunch of the
surface things that each one ofthose is a topic in itself, but
(45:57):
there's, it's not as simple asjust, oh, those people need to
get the zipper shut.
Or oh, those people need torealize that.
You know, I worked for a livingtoo.
Or those people you know thosepeople there's the problem right
there too those people insteadof Cassandra, instead of you
know, lily, instead of Ann,whatever, you know Ann, have you
(46:23):
met Ann and her little baby,Chuck, little Chucky, he's cute
as saying, yeah, she, they don'thave a, she doesn't have a dad.
The dad isn't with them anymore.
Oh my, how can we help?
No, that's far too often.
That is not the response tothat thing Far too often.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Well, they should have cut a wooder, right, yeah,
they should have did this, theycould have it, and it's like,
yeah, it's like if they wereafforded that education again,
just resources and educationleads to better decisions.
And you know, of course, wheneducation and resources are
taken away from people, you knowit's gonna it's gonna lead to
another path.
And, of course, and of course,when we're talking about sex,
(47:06):
just well, the flesh issomething else.
The flesh leads us to do somereally bad things.
You know the natural sex, right, just say, really, I guess,
when you're having really goodSEX, right, it's gonna lead to
people doing some really badthings to get that, you know.
And, of course, you know theold adages and old jokes.
(47:28):
I don't want to, I don't wantto say again, but it's just
simply, sex is, has, can be usedas a weapon on both sides, men
and women.
They use it for, they use toget what they want and need in
the course of sex is to beenjoyed in a responsible manner.
And that's where you know.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
The oldest profession in the world?
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, it's.
Sometimes you have sex as aprofession to some, you know, in
a, because we're talking aboutpeople living, people living in
the flesh and not in the spirit,corporate world and all use it
Search, as always.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
so another rousing talk that you know it spurs
people to have about how big theproblem is and what the roots
of it are.
And if we're wrong, we'll talkwith anyone.
That doesn't agree.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
It's a great chance.
We are right.
Exactly, I mean that's what weare all the time.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Just I'm, you know, I'm just a guy with an opinion.
But you know, check it out.
Check out if my opinions holdwater, check out if Antoine's
opinions hold water.
That's the real test.
We used to say proof is in thepudding, right?
So look at the pudding.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
Research for yourself .
Speaker 2 (48:45):
Research for yourself .
We have this thing called theinternet.
Now I hear the internet thingthat you know.
You don't believe everything onthe internet.
Do some research.
It's not just one source, it'snot Carl thinks or Raoul thinks,
it's not, it's about, you know,looking at the big picture and
thinking about the big pictureAlways.
Yes, hopefully some thingsresonate with you, right?
(49:08):
So All right, antoine, always,always, one of the best parts of
my day is getting happy talkswith you.
So here on Frame of BrothersSame year.
So, and I'm Raoul Lebrash.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Antoine Hardman senior.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Hey, we're getting the thing right.
We're going to get that.
It's going to be like yeah.
I'm Raoul Lebrash, and you knowwe can develop some kind of
personality or something.
So hey, man, you have a goodday.
Okay, you too, man.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Thank you.
Thank you, you as well, man.
Just love and prayers arealways to you and your family,
man, so we'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
And you as well.
You give my best to Ramona andhope everything goes well and
you have a great week and agreat weekend and folks, thanks
for listening, thanks forwatching us on Frame of
Reference.
And, raoul, like I said, hopegets you thinking and talking.
That's really what it's allabout Peace to you.
Listen, it's well for you.
(50:03):
You see me and my stupid beard.
I don't know what it is, morethan that, probably.
Huh.
Just thanks, brother, take care, see you next week.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Hey, you too, man, Thank you.
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