July 14, 2023 • 53 mins
Are you ready to challenge your perspectives and biases? We promise you a journey of self-exploration as we dissect the differences in how crime is perceived among Black and white communities. This episode is an eye-opener, revealing how media can paint a skewed picture and how personal experiences can shape our understanding. It’s a candid conversation about the unique experiences that create our world view.
We then navigate the thorny world of crime and its root causes, pushing the boundaries of conventional thinking. Poverty, lack of structure, and power dynamics, it's all up for scrutiny. We also spotlight how political leaders and corporations may sometimes manipulate crime-related statistics for personal gain. Hence, we underscore the importance of ethical leadership and the implications of corporate decisions on workers and their families.
Finally, we dive headfirst into the heated immigration debate and its impact on everyday Americans. This isn't just about policy; it's about the real-world effects on farmers, workers, and families across the states. We discuss how decisions made by large companies affect the people on the ground and emphasize the importance of crafting narratives that benefit all. This episode is a thought-provoking challenge to question our biases and understand the root cause of many issues. So tune in for a fresh perspective - this is one conversation you won't want to miss.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Music.
That's it.
Hey, what's happening?
Is this Antoine on the otherend, is that who I'm talking to?
Antoine Holman, The one andonly Antoine Holman.
See you, that's you.
Okay, yeah, so this is you.
And then who am I?
again, i don't remember minefor the time.
The Fresh LeBresh Look, freshLeBresh.
Hey, i could go buy that.
(00:36):
This is LeBresh, this is FreshLeBresh.
Huh, could we bill ourselvesthat, antoine and Fresh LeBresh?
would that be okay?
I think that could be amarketing mirror.
What?
I'm sorry, that could be amarketing.
See, it's done, that could be abonanza man.
I could see billboards withthat on it Between Antoine and
(00:58):
Fresh LeBresh every Saturdaymorning or whenever you know.
But anyway, yeah, yeah, i'd beokay with that too.
So we are on, you know, theForeman frame of reference thing
again with the.
You know, we're coming together, together to do this frame of
reference thing.
Antoine does a great job ofdescribing this.
(01:18):
You know, we're just, we'rejust a couple of guys that are
not experts by any means inanything other than what we've
seen in our lives And I.
The one thing I see in my lifeabout black people and white
people getting together is wejust do not understand each
other and what people come from,because we don't have that
(01:40):
background anymore than I can.
Frankly, i can understand whata woman experiences as a woman.
You know any man that thinkshe's, you know, has got it
together with oh, i'm sosensitive to their issues, you
know that can be like reallydisruptive to people If you say
that to the wrong woman and youare going to get your head bit
off because you cannot know whatit's like.
(02:01):
So you know, here we are justtrying to kind of give our
perspectives on it, right, imean, and say you know, i don't
know how you feel about that,but hopefully you'd like to see
the world be a little nicerplace, and I'd like to see it be
that way, and we might havesomething that'll help you.
So I'm thinking that you know.
(02:22):
On, this conversation yeah, goahead Sorry.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
No, just hopefully provoke some thought that or
look ends than what they areaccustomed and just say wow, i
know that I did not understandthat.
Or like that light bulb momentwhere oh now why?
why that behavior or thatsituation or that thing is about
?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Like I say, this is too regular guys, but would both
have a different lifeexperiences And some are this to
the table.
Raoul had a very open about ourown personal life, with the
hope giving people understandingthat none of we're not too much
.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, well, that's the thing too right, isn't it?
In my mind, the thing I'veenjoyed about our conversations
is that a number one I don't, idon't.
You know anyone I talk to, idon't have their experience, i
just don't know, i don't careyou know what your nationality
or religion, you just, you justdon't know.
You know what people'sperspective is And, like that
(03:22):
old saying, you know, two headsare better than one.
Two frames of reference topeople's, you know, different
extents and ways of seeing theworld can be really helpful.
Because now we're going tospeak to not just the people
that understand how I see which,who knows if there's anyone out
there going man, he's got areally but there's somebody
either to be somebody'slistening regularly out there,
(03:43):
that's going.
Yeah, he makes a good point.
But then I, from my perspective, i get your perspective on
things and I go.
You know, i never thought of itthat way.
That makes sense.
I can see why someone wouldthink about it that way And
that's important to consider,the fact that you do think about
it differently, you do have adifferent perspective, and it's
not just media hype or it's notjust you know.
(04:06):
I've made that point before.
If anyone doesn't, you know, iswatching the news and not
realizing that the news iscrafted for a particular point
of view and a particular bias.
And they look at the numbersthat say these are the, these
are the episodes, this is theinformation that people want to
see.
So we're going to do more of it.
(04:26):
Look at these, these five guysthat ended up getting killed in
the submarine or submersibleSorry, it's not a submarine, but
you know we we followed thatfor a week.
You know people wanted to knowmore about that whole thing.
So the media just had a heydaywith that and giving people what
they want.
And media today is no differentthan hamburgers.
(04:48):
You know, mcdonald's came on aformula for hamburgers that
people really liked, and nowthey've sold literally billions
of them.
Well, guess what?
Media is the same way.
Now here we are, though, withframe of reference coming
together.
You know I'm not tied andAntoine's not tied to any
constituency of sponsors thatare saying we don't like you
(05:09):
doing more.
Hey, do that story more.
We're just talking about thingsthat matter, you know, and I
can talk about my family and mymy family's perspective on our
topic today, right, which iscrime, and white people tend to
feel look at crime as being adifferent animal, caused for
(05:30):
different reasons, by differentpeople, than black people do.
Right Is it?
am I wrong or Antoine?
You know we, antoine, i'm goingto go to start, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Go ahead, no just saying Yeah because nullified,
it has projected and it's just aitself, or the crime is used to
invoke, create an action, tojust talking before we came on.
When we talk about crime as isa narrative, who's presiding
over crime?
you know, you got those types.
(06:03):
Yeah, misdemeanor could be afelony, it could be a felony
misdemeanor, or it could be aninfraction.
Sometimes it's crime how crime,how it is dealt with and
defined.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
You know we were talking about the whole issue of
drug addiction and how, whenthe media describes the crack
epidemic and you know we came upwith things like crack baby you
put a derisive, or you know, tomake the people that were
addicted to crack.
(06:36):
You know women that wereaddicted and anyone that's been
addicted to anything knows thataddictions are just horrible
things, that you know victimizepeople because they're in.
You know situations where,whatever escapism, you know they
want to feel better and youknow drugs give them a way to
feel some sort of euphoria.
(06:56):
I mean, the reason thingsbecome addictive is because,
just like you know, going outwith your friends and drinking
too much, if you start drinkingtoo much too often to relieve
stress, guess what?
you're gonna get addicted toalcohol, you're gonna become an
alcoholic.
It's just the way those thingswork.
But we depict it thatderisively, that that you know,
(07:19):
like these people are not howcould a mother do that to her
baby, right?
And that that that's a realissue.
That happens, you know, and itis a horrible thing, but we are
trained to not see it compared,whereas with the opium epidem,
heroin epidemic that tends to bedepicted in situations like
West Virginia, where there are,you know people that were hurt
(07:41):
in coal mines.
You know guys that worked theirbuns off and ended up getting
injured And because they wereinjured they got prescribed an
opioid.
You know whether it be, youknow some sort of you know
cocaine or heroin, or you knowthey don't call it that.
But you know there are thingslike Percocet, which is, you
know, a controlled substance,right?
(08:02):
So people get prescriptions forthat And then over a period of
time the prescription runs outor they lose their job because
they can't work anymore.
And now they can't get that.
Well, guess what, when you getprescribed an opiate for a
period of time, you're going tobecome addicted And you don't
like the pain When you come offof it.
The pain is, you know, muchless of an attractive
(08:23):
proposition than taking theopioid.
But my point in all that isbecause that whole story is we
tend to see that as those poorpeople, those poor guys, that's
not fair.
Why did that happen?
So our perspective is craftedtowards a sympathetic,
compassionate, empatheticviewpoint instead of a
(08:44):
judgmental.
Those people are awful.
Now, you could just as easilyflip that.
You could just as easily look atthe guys that you know, the
dumb idiots.
Why are they taking that thing?
Why aren't they like?
you know, people that I knowpersonally that have to take
that because they're in severepain too, and they purposely
take as little as pop becausethey want to numb the pain, but
(09:06):
they don't want to get addicted.
They realize the dangersinvolved in that.
So I could just as easily say,well, why can't they do like my
friend did here and not getaddicted?
You know what kind of idiotsare they?
Well, that would be mean andcruel And you know you'd be like
What's his problem?
But, and I could just as easylook at the women that you know
have children that are crackbabies and say those poor women,
(09:28):
what's going on in their lives?
that gosh, what can we do tohelp them so that that doesn't
keep happening to babies?
That's just wrong.
That's, you know we.
We got to do something aboutthat.
No, we'd otherwise them andturn them into animals or some
kind of you know, mutant speciesthat ought to know better.
Okay, so come on, folks, thinkabout it first.
(09:49):
Think about it.
What's going on with this?
What is going on at the root ofthe whole thing?
What's going on with this?
Well, it's all designed to keepus apart, to keep us doing the
same crap that we've been doingfor literally hundreds of years,
to be able to see the otherside of the equation as being
either we align with it and say,oh my, yeah, that's terrible,
(10:12):
we should do something, or allthose people just need we just
wipe out those neighborhoods, wejust need to get rid of the
weed or whatever You know.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I just made a point where it's like, when we're
talking about like went back tothe 90s and now we're.
You know, of course, the crackepidemic.
It was criminal, it's a crime,but now opium or opioid
addiction is treated as adisease.
And again it's about thenarrative that has been created.
It's like a.
It's like a doctor thatmisdiagnosed whatever ailment.
(10:40):
You prescribed a medicationthat medicated, underlying
existing issues but it onlyexacerbates.
You know, just like amisdiagnosed compromises The
public say.
A lot of these unsuspectatedcrime narratives prevent us from
understanding the fact andcontributing to crime.
You know, of course, when wetalk about poverty, just
(11:00):
generational poverty, you knowall these different things that
are factors And again, i'll bethe most ever making excuse for
anyone doing anything wrong.
But you got to understand theactual situation where a person
it would end.
You know, of course, becauseagain, like what we're seeing
now, you know, going back evento the 80s.
You remember when Mike, thekind of for president put that
(11:22):
up here, willie Green and it wasthe purpose of it, was you know
but what?
about.
You know, like say, you knowthat was one side of talk about
white the Bernie Madoffs.
So just kill people, takeeverything they have.
And it just one crime or oneperception of crime is
definitely true to any other.
That's why the crime can be howthe crime is presided.
(11:45):
And again these narratives like, say, the Lindsey Graham's of
the world who say, oh, we justneed more aggressive prospects,
need to increase police funding.
And then of course you're likethe mayor of New York I can't
walk the top but he'll saysomething like, oh, oh, cut out
bail, bail bonds.
Men's, people that are havebeen charged with a crime or are
(12:06):
arrested and convicted of acrime can't get out of jail soon
.
So it's just differentnarratives people come in at
different that you know.
The narratives that are beingset, just like the doctor
misdiagnosing a issue, ourmisdiagnosing the causes of
crime, Well and we're avoidingdealing with the causes of it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
You know, ultimately, you know I might my thing that
I do periodically.
Antoine Wilkin will corroboratethis.
I like to look at thedefinitions of words because we
have a tendency to kind of havea general understanding what the
crime means, but I think ithelps to crystallize how the
word is actually described.
So I looked up crime and it has.
(12:46):
It has two primary meanings.
One is an action or a missionthat constitutes an offense that
may be persecuted, prosecutedby the state And, as it as that
is a fact, it's punishable bylaw.
But the second definition isthe one that I really I think
hits on all the different levelsof crimes that are being so.
(13:09):
And that second definition isan action or activity that,
although not, is considered tobe evil, shameful or wrong, as
in they condemned apartheid as acrime again.
Or it's a crime to keep acreature like Willie in a tank.
(13:29):
So we look at those things andsay, all right, let's look at
the opioid epidemic, right, solet's take that back a step.
So where's the crime in that?
the crime is in, in my mind,not only not the education of
the person that's beingprescribed the opioid and we
don't know for sure.
But are those people beingeducated with?
(13:51):
Okay, here are the risks andhere are the things that we want
to do to monitor, to try tocontrol the addiction that's
going to happen.
Okay, so that's that's kind ofa crime if that isn't happening
in a way that really informs thetaker of the medicine that is
known to be addictive.
It's just like the SurgeonGeneral's warning that finally
got put on cigarettes afteryears of the tobacco industry
(14:15):
fighting that, because theydidn't want that knowledge of
what cigarettes did to people,what the research clearly showed
smoking did to people.
They didn't want thatinformation in people's hands.
So, who knows, are thepharmaceutical companies behind
wanting to make sure that thateducation doesn't happen and
telling the doctors we wouldrather you not tell people's,
(14:35):
and if you don't, we'll give youa really good deal on purpose.
And then you take another stepback.
What about the crime that'sbeing committed by the medical
industry?
that, to your point, antoine,we aren't treating the root
cause, we aren't doing theexpensive procedures that might
actually make a longer lastingimpact on not only that person's
(14:57):
pain but that person's issueswith functionality, right, you
know, make it more affordablefor people to have those, either
corrective surgeries or otherthings that could could help
with that.
And then, on the the crack sideof it, why aren't we doing to
help the poverty that thesepeople are in?
Why aren't we doing somethingto make the living conditions
(15:20):
for the people that become crackaddicts so that they're not as
inclined to want to do that,that they're not as inclined to
want to sell that?
And we talked about that toobefore we came on about the guys
that are selling this stuff.
Well, think about it practically, folks.
If you have an opportunity as akid or a young guy to sell
(15:40):
drugs to people that you cansell, tell you in your mind, hey
, they want to buy it.
All I'm doing is providing aservice.
You know I'm not.
you know, yeah, it's an illegalsubstance, but you know what
the heck?
they're going to buy it from meor they're going to buy it from
somebody else.
I'm, you know I'm not going tostop that.
Or you can go make 15, 16, 17dollars an hour at McFarland at,
you know, mcdonald's, or youcan make $5,000 a week selling
(16:04):
crack.
Well, when you're living in theconditions that those folks are
living in, what would you choose?
I defy people that arelistening right now that are in
pretty you know, even decentsituation.
If you had a chance and youcould get past what?
maybe you were trained by yourmom to never do that, or your
dad.
but let's face some kids thatare in those situations.
(16:24):
They don't, you know, theydon't have that kind of
structure in their life thatsays, absolutely, my son, my
daughter will not do that.
So they're just the moms andthe dads are trying to survive
themselves.
They don't, they can't do nordo that.
They've been educated, probably, to do anything other than do
what you have to to survive inthis world, man, do what you
(16:46):
have that.
That, to me, those are thecrimes.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Exactly And, of course, level or crime, the type
of who is alleged to perpetratethe crime.
You know, of course, again,like, say, big pharma, they not
only did fame this opioidaddiction with something that
was open, not only it was legal,yes.
However, the data and it was acrime, the fact that they are
(17:10):
lied, or like that definitionmid it, parts of what the
effects were, which is addictionAnd but, yeah, you know, is of
the money that it generates, isthe narrative to our heads that,
oh well, it's not, this is a.
These or all poor, those poorworkers that are in these,
because, understand this, youknow, let's just say, a laborer
(17:32):
working south side of Chicagofalls off a route, he's not
going to get prescribed openly,he gonna have to be dealt with.
The pain is, again, is thiscontribute to the factors of
what we will a crime?
And that's where it's kind of,it's disheartening, because I'll
say this, i've said this in acouple of our other Hey, i'm a
from the crime, you the timejust point blank, regardless of
(17:55):
if you do the crime, you do theand.
But, however, a lot of instance, even looking at the news
present day, a lot of beingvarious crimes that again, like
in that perceived as a crime, ifmorally wrong or whatever.
However the law is interpretedby X, y, crime, it can see, kind
of comes in a because again,this thing has been the
(18:15):
beginning of time but yet wehave to get to the deep, i think
we have to get.
I believe that we have to getcalls.
When we say crime, the calls ofit And of course this thing is
going to go back 100 again toaddress them because we can put
a bandaid on it by saying oh, wehave a tougher laws, we can do
all.
We can have stronger lawenforcement, we can have a
(18:36):
stronger system, we can do allthese different things.
But who calls is going to costmoney.
Most powers that be don't wantto spend the money because you
don't want to acknowledge that.
You acknowledge that you haveto spend the money to
acknowledge.
Well, i'm gonna say in a lot ofinstances, you homelessness as
an example, a lot of communitieswon't acknowledge to have a
(18:58):
homeless problem.
They have to the problem withrequire them to spend money And
again, so what happens arepowers that be local media,
national media, whatever thecase may be, will create a
narrative that will actuallydeflect from the new or project
the issue, or to another groupor circumstance, yeah, yeah, and
(19:18):
it's like the stats, totallythe stats on crime, again, this
kind of misleading, you knowcourse.
So you got to think pre andpost COVID When we talk about
these numbers, because everynotice you only hear about crime
the midterms and you know,during election time, that's
when you start to hear, you knowto sway people.
(19:40):
And again that, how many timeshave we said, raul, don't people
stop being single issue votershere, the whole, near the whole.
Here go fact check for yourself.
Because remember, remember thisofficial's name.
He was in the state of New YorkBut he ran on the fact he was a
tough on crime.
High crime, the number wascrime, but get the test to find
(20:00):
in front of a committee.
And then he had to eat hiswords and say, because he was
questioned, like well, you saidthat crime was high in all these
different things, but yet thenumbers there was a decrease.
And he admit.
But did he get, was he adelusive seat in that state
legislature?
No, and again, it's these.
This type of rhetoric leads to aharmful kind of productive part
(20:24):
that you know this harm,particularly black and brown,
right, you know, in the courseof when we start, you know
peddling, but they, they, thepeddling.
That a tough on crime narrative.
It's not new in the time Andbut yet the same time have not.
We just need people to reallyresearch for themselves what's
happening in their areas.
Does crime is absolutely, yes,but let's get, let's get the,
(20:47):
get the numbers yourself, butalso start underlying causes of
well, when we start to addressthe underlying causes we're
actually putting.
We're not just putting a bandaidon a thing or even exacerbating
a crime by, like you know, aperson can.
Depending on the person, acrime can be either an
(21:08):
infraction or it could bepersecuted.
Persecuted, prosecuted, pens onthe narrative.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Or just be evil.
Yeah, it can just be an evil,shameful thing.
You know, like that second deal, you like people ought to know
better, or you know people thatthat have power and money ought
to be able to be heldresponsible for the fact that.
dude, what are you doing here?
I get that.
you know you have to beprofitable.
I get that your business, if itdoesn't make a profit, is not
(21:37):
going to exist.
Okay, i get that.
I really do that.
as a businessman myself, iunderstand that fundamental
thing that goes on.
But I mean we'll, we'll look atthe oil industry.
you know some people look atthat and say, my God, it's an
absolute crime that those oilmongols you know the Saudis or
whatever are making all thatmoney on oil when they know that
(22:00):
it's polluting the skies andthat it's causing all kinds of
problems.
Now, if you don't believe inclimate change, fine, but you
know that smog is an issue, thatit's hard for people to breathe
in areas where there's tons andtons of cars, why aren't they
spending some of that money ondeveloping alternative types of
fuel?
We have that ability to do itand it would be much better for
everybody involved.
(22:20):
Well, you hit it on the headbecause you got to spend money
to do that, and if there's onething that you don't want to do
is spend money when you don'thave to spend, you would rather
just collect the revenue That's.
that's like the you know thepenultimate thing in business.
If you can have a cash cow thatjust keeps feeding you money
without spending any money,guess what That means?
(22:41):
you make more money and moneybuilds money.
I get it, that's fundamental.
That's fundamental to how thesethings work.
But at the end of the day, icheck.
I ask people not only toeducate but be aware of your
bias, because I remember hearingthis one guy who was a writer
for a show and he said, you knowpeople talk about crime is
increasing.
(23:01):
And he said, you know, let'sjust, let's call it what it is.
That means that black peopleare doing more stuff, or you
know this, now that black peoplemoved into my neighborhood,
crime is going to increase That.
So we equate, for God's sake, weequate blackness with crime.
It's like you look in thedictionary and if you looked up
(23:21):
this, this different definitionof crime, some people would
expect they're able to.
They're being really honest.
They put a picture of a blackperson there That would define
all you need to define aboutcrime.
Well, really, seriously, that'swhat we're going to.
You talk about putting a faceto things.
That's how we put a face to it.
Folks, as white folks And onthe other side of the equation,
(23:42):
i don't know, antoine, when you,when you, look at crime, do you
, do you have, you know,brothers and sisters and friends
that think about crime andthink about what, about the
crimes that are being committedagainst us.
You should put a white personthere.
Sorry, you broke up there, i'mnot catching you.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Oh, you should come up.
I say the automotive or eventhe drug industry.
Right, you know they'll sayit's a cheap.
They do that.
It's cheaper for us to pay afull death lawsuit, that's a
fixed.
The problem that exists withour product, yeah, and that goes
forever.
And then it's still going.
And now if you tell me thatthat should like say with the,
(24:19):
the omissions of automobiles is,you know, we are trying to, you
know, go in a differentdirection.
However, people that have bigpots, that are industry or that,
like the co-authors that ownrubber, basically saying Hey, we
don't want people patient, wedon't want high speed rail that
will minimize any air because itwill kill our pockets and will
(24:40):
stop buying our product.
Right And and again it's likethe big part is it's like these
factors have our politicians.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
They you broke up again.
We are having problems thismorning.
We apologize, we're.
We're having problems thismorning with audio folks, so
things drop out, we're, weapologize.
That's, that's unfortunate Andwe we tried to solve it a couple
of different ways.
But if things drop out, bepatient with us, because we're
aware of the problem.
We're trying to fix it as we goalong.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Right, sorry, sorry And yeah, just you know, just
getting fast for ourselves andreally getting calls of a
problem and challenging yourself, challenging.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I call on people to challenge your own belief system
and what you've been, whatyou've been led to believe, what
you're, what biases of yoursthat you have been, you know,
fed to build And you know whatare you attracted to.
Because we, i think honestly,information is an addiction to.
We get addicted to a certainpoint of view And we want to
(25:43):
feed that addiction.
That's the only way to explainthings like the different
narratives, as you've beentalking about over and over
again.
Right, the different narratives, the different sets of facts.
You know both, both sides ofany argument will choose very,
very wisely, astutely, you know,in informed, in a very informed
way, they will choose the factsthat they choose to represent
(26:05):
when they present a story, andyou know both may be telling,
quote unquote, truth, but whenyou take a fact outside of its
context and presented in acertain way, you are building a
bias.
That's the way that stuff works, that's the only way, and that
what we need to do is that's whyI like definitions is when you
go back to a situation like acrime and say this is something
(26:29):
that shameful it's, you know,ethically wrong, morally wrong.
You know people should feellike this.
Just shouldn't happen, that wehave that inside of each of us
has that this just shouldn'thappen.
Then you got to look at how isan issue being presented by one
side of the equation and how isit being presented by another
(26:49):
side of that argument, andsomewhere in the middle is
probably the truth, because bothsides of those are obviously
biased.
But if I believe something andtake any subject you want right
now Trump or Biden okay, if youthink Biden's a complete jerk
and you know what, what a moronhe's, you know old and feeble
and it's falling all over theplace.
You know he gets lost when he'son stage, whatever the stuff
(27:12):
that's you know set about him.
Or he's wrecking our economy,he's going to tax things, blah,
blah, blah.
Or you're on the Trump side ofthe equation.
You say you know that.
You know poor president, he.
You know the election wasstolen from him.
He was, you know just.
He was doing so much good forthe country.
He was, you know, doing allthese you know things that just
(27:33):
people didn't like.
He was standing up to theEuropeans.
You know he was looking at, youknow, nato and saying you guys
pony up for the money that youowe.
He was trying to stop theproblem with all these criminals
getting through the border.
There, you know those are.
There are some facts, there'ssome truth in all of that stuff.
I get it, but do you everchallenge yourself and say, well
(27:54):
, wait a minute.
What about these people?
What if the stuff that thepeople that you know are saying
about the insurrection?
what if these people that aretalking about the classified
documents and the top secretstuff President Trump is alleged
and in some cases, has admittedto having done?
Is that a crime?
Should he have done that as apresident, or are we going to
justify that?
(28:15):
And on the other side, you knowwhat?
if Biden is having issues,physical issues, that impair his
ability to be in one of themost important positions in the
world, are we willing to look atthat and come up with another
viable candidate on both sidesof the equation?
Can we come up with viablecandidates that would help bring
us together instead of continueto put the wedge deeper and
(28:38):
deeper into the polarization?
Because we will not.
We will not.
You know you cannot.
You cannot have a nation likethe United States of America,
which is a melting pot for allkinds of national cultures And
we have so much.
That is great, great.
So when people talk about makeAmerica great again, i want to
(29:01):
say do you want to, do you wantto look at another country and
tell me another country that hasgot as much stuff going for it
as America right now?
right now, look at anothercountry and tell me that there's
anyone.
Yeah, there are places likeNorway that do some things
really well with medicine.
There are places like, you know, france, that have wonderful
(29:22):
arts, you know, and do a lot tocultivate arts.
There are people like Germanythat have wonderful things, that
are going on with theirtechnology and advancement in
Israel.
There are all kinds of greatthings all over the world, and
America is the best at puttingall that stuff together and
trying the new thing.
So we have all kinds of issues,all right.
So I'm getting off on a pointto make a point, that is, we
(29:44):
need people that will bring thattogether and say there are
different points of view that weall we need to consider and
then make the best decision wecan from being informed, the
best that, and as long as weallow ourselves to only feed
ourselves and only look at theinformation that informs one
side, you know whether it's yourresponsibility anyone that's
(30:04):
listening right now.
It is your responsibility tofind the information, to
challenge your bias, to say,okay, what do I think about this
, why do I think it?
number one, challenge it andsay why do I think it And what's
an alternative thing, what's analternative way to look at it,
what's a different haha frame ofreference that I could use to
help inform myself and my biases.
(30:27):
In my opinion, in a better,more complete back to me, says
what this I'm sorry I keepinterrupting you because I get
on my tirades.
Man, you know I am.
I'm just I'm a passionate artsyguy and I get going on.
My family will tell you I don'tknow how to shut up, but I'm
shutting up, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You're fine.
This is all about man talkingit out and you have to paint the
pitch.
You know you got three types ofin sales.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
You know auditory, have visual, yeah you know that
right, You do, you do realestate sales.
You know that whole deal right,Have that in there, Yep, And.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
But going back saying that makes you point where the
likes.
You look at Trump in hissituation with the with top
secret documents.
You look at the opiate, thepharmaceutical.
You look at the automotivewe're talking about like a
challenge in our, regardless ofit's a white collar, a black,
bold collar crime, whatever tryto call it.
You got to ask yourself thatcommitted this thing?
did they do it knowingly, Didthey do it purposely, Or was it
(31:22):
just reckless and negligent?
All four are bad, Most caseslast.
Again, we use the document, usethe automotive industry as they
knowingly know that, oh yeah,airbags are defective or this
thing about their view isdefective, But it's going to be
just to pay a family X amount ofdollars recalling all these
vehicles and then then thuscrushing our marketability.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I lost again Dang it.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Products are affected by the again.
With the pharmaceuticals, withthe products we you know.
Hey, why do you think the meatpeople, people that are produced
, boy, they fight the USDA upand down, left and right.
What all is going on with ourfood While we talk about
regulation, right, that's all.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
we have regulations, so people don't like government
interference.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Things are a crime is a crime.
It depends on the level of itcould be committed knowingly,
but yet is it prosecuted.
And that's where we really lookat differential when it comes
to crime or interpretation ofcrime.
You made a great point earlier.
It's like again crime has youknow.
When you say crime, you thinkcriminal, you think black.
(32:34):
And when I think of criminal alot of times nowadays honestly I
think about you, know I believe, Ralph, we're both saying is
like a challenge to say, hey,regardless of the color of them
or the position of in a class of, say, did they, did they
knowing mislead it from thetruth?
Did they do this purpose?
Because if, if you're gonna, ifyou can answer that question,
(32:54):
you cannot be the possible crimehas been And yeah let's look at
the auto industry, for justtake another crime.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Okay, you could constitute as a crime the issues
of moving all of ourmanufacturing or a lot of our
main superlatives, like that.
Anyways, big companies make adecision to move production of
cars or all kinds of things toareas of the world where they
can produce those things forless money And they can produce
(33:23):
those things for greater profit.
All right.
So if you're working in Detroitand all of a sudden your
factory closes down or you'reworking here you know I live in
Wisconsin if you're working inJamesville, wisconsin, and you
know GM closes a plant downthere because they can make the
same thing with acceptablequality control in Mexico or
(33:44):
China or Malaysia or Thailand,wherever, and pay the laborers
considerably less than whatwe're.
We're paying people in the USfor a livable wage here And,
granted, the standard of livingand the cost of living in the US
is considerably higher than inthose places.
But what are you going to do?
(34:05):
If you're a businessman, ifit's your business and you want
to make a profit and yourstockholders are saying we want
greater dividends, you're goingto move.
You're going to take theexpense, the big hit, of putting
a factory in those placesbecause you can make more money.
That doesn't negate the crimethat you've committed against
your own you know people, theworkforce that's been with you.
(34:28):
But now let's take a stepfurther back.
What about the crime that'sbeing committed when the people
that are set as your union, asyour, your you know protecting
organization that's supposed tonegotiate the best wages for you
possible, what if those peoplearen't giving you all the
information, as a worker, thatyou need to say to your union
(34:51):
leaders hey guys, you know, ithink we got to listen more to
the heads of this, because inthis situation I think they're
right.
We just we can't afford as acompany, we can't afford the
kind of, you know, negotiationwe're asking, because it is,
it's going to get to the pointwhere they're not going to be
able to afford and they're goingto.
They're, you know, theirstockholders are going to insist
(35:12):
that they do something to makemore money.
On the other hand, what aboutthe businessmen?
what the crime that those CEOsare committing to to not say
when they could, hey, we'remaking record profits.
We need to turn more of thatback to our you know, we're
sorry stockholders.
We're going to, we're puttingup your you know we're going to
cut back your dividend becausewe want to reward our staff
(35:33):
that's working so hard to givethe products that are selling so
well for us, and that alltraces back to it.
If you want to look at somethinginteresting, look at how in the
19th century early 19th centurywe looked at leaders as people
that had integrity, that wereethical people, that were, you
know, worked, worried about andworked on things like building a
(35:54):
consensus between differentpoints of view.
Like Abraham Lincoln, he wasexcellent at bringing people
together from very differentpoints of view, people that
would argue with him vehemently.
He wanted those people togetherin his cabinet so that he would
make the best informed decision.
That character of a guy thatgrew up in lean to Abraham
Lincoln grew up in lean twos,basically three sided, you know,
(36:17):
log cabins with a piece ofleather hide as one wall in the
winter in Kentucky, all right.
So this is that he had thatkind of background.
Versus then, what happened laterin the 19th century was you had
people like Carnegie and youknow, was it J, not JP Morgan,
one of the I don't know, maybeit was JP Morgan who made huge
(36:38):
amounts of money in the steelindustry, the oil industry and
they were not necessarily themost ethical people.
Carnegie, you know both.
He admitted earlier in his lifehe was a you know jerk and
became then a hugephilanthropist because he saw
the error of his ways.
Morgan, i don't know, ever gotthere.
He really liked having that,all you know, creating that
(36:58):
empire.
So we went from thinking peoplewere good, leaders were ethical
, you know good people, topeople that were really
competent, good businessmen.
And that's the world we live intoday.
We still have not gotten thething through our head that I
want to vote for people.
When I vote for people,honestly, i don't vote Democrat
or Republican.
I look at the character of theperson that's seeking to be my
(37:23):
representative And I try to findthe best person and do the
research that I need to do tofigure out just the best person.
Because at the end of the day,it's your character that will
determine how you look atregulations, legislation,
whatever, and how you determine.
You know what's the right thingto do and very difficult.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It's your character, not your competence, that's
going to determine you know whenyou were Yep, you made a great
point when you're talking aboutcompanies leaving areas and
leaving the country forfinancial gains.
So because, again, you look ata crime as a criminal, like you
said, i use when I'm right outof house to work at a big
(38:04):
manufacturer of these thingscalled lunchables.
Yeah, i eat lunchables.
Those lunchables, of course.
what they started to do theybecause that basically had to
pay us $13 and I ended up movingfuller than California had to
pay $6.50.
And then, of course, that was ayes, that's a is it?
was it illegal for them to tryto grow that?
No, well, again, the rotationof a crime in more, but at the
(38:29):
same time also to give theirstock is a better mark, but also
they're doing it knowinglycommitted over and over again.
Is these companies not pay yourtaxes right?
And then it's amazing how thesecompanies that don't pay their
fair share of taxes.
They move their money all overthe world to avoid paying tax,
(38:50):
And then, of course, thepolitics elect into office will
actually help them hide there orhelp them to minimize their
liability.
And but yet, when it comes tothese, things are being done
knowingly and purpose.
That's where I talk about.
People have to know what andwhat they're voting for.
Follow the money, follow themoney Because of a political or
(39:15):
a charismatic convinced you of athing, but again, is that
that's a crime And it is a crimeof code.
I'm not gonna base my company,put my company's address in some
little note, because they don'tdo.
But I'm operating globally,making billions of dollars, but
I don't pay taxes because I'mstationed in the right.
(39:36):
And then, of course, then thepoliticians say well, you know
what you're right, and not onlyare, we will help put some laws
in place where your tax loopholeremains the same.
And then, that's where we areright now.
You know you look at aChristian cinema.
She refused to vote against abunch of good policy far as a
voting rights And in a lot ofother things she wanted the tax
(39:58):
loophole open for the wealthy.
Now and again Christian cinema.
She's a Democrat, right, butthis hat like not.
She's independent, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Well, and let's, let's take that.
That Fullerton thing.
That's another great example ofhow we are.
The narrative is crafted in acertain way depending on what
news source you look for.
The truth, whatever that is,And the the fact of the matter
is they moved to where,Fullerton California.
What do you think they use fora workforce there in Fullerton
California?
that's different than you knowhere in Wisconsin.
(40:27):
It was Latinx folks that werewilling to take a job for 650 an
hour, because it's six.
It's a whole lot more than theywould make in Mexico.
Which, oh, by the way, that wallthat we want to build.
There's a lot of people rightnow that you part.
You think the wall isn'tgetting built because the
Democrats are awful people.
The wall isn't getting built,which we could talk about the
(40:49):
wall too, and what problems thatsolves and what it doesn't
solve when you look at thatthing and what's going on with
it all.
But the reality is there are alot of people heck here in
Wisconsin that we don't checktheir papers, because if we
check their papers and find outthat they're here illegally,
we're not going to get the cropsout of the fields right now,
(41:09):
Because the the reality is thatthe folks that are either not
available, the guys just don'twant to do that work because
farming is tough work in hisback breaking work.
There are a lot.
There are not a lot of peoplethat want to do that work, But
the Latino looks that are in ourarea they'll take the work.
That's good work for them,That's good money for them.
(41:29):
They're happy to take thosejobs.
So what are you going to do?
if you're a farmer, you own abig farming operation.
What are you going to do tokeep your operation going?
You're going to not only takethat labor force, you're not
going to ask a lot of questionsand you're sure as hell not
going to mind paying them lessthan you'd have to pay or had
been paying to people that don'twant the jobs anymore.
(41:49):
So here's another idea, oranother example of the narrative
being crafted so that, ifyou're the one losing the job,
you're not being directedtowards hating the people or
committing the crimes of.
Why are we insisting that thesecompanies make so much profit at
the expense of people losingtheir jobs?
(42:12):
Why are we insisting that wepay people more money, which is
a fantastic thing But when youget paid more money, that
translates into your producthaving to cost more money,
because you can guess thatpeople aren't going to want to
have that profit streamdecreased.
That doesn't look good, Sothey're going to have to
(42:33):
increase their profit.
Well then what happens?
You're just going to pay morefor the things that you already
are struggling to pay for.
So it's a complicated thing.
Well, instead of working thatproblem out, which I don't have
the answers to it, I'm not goingto sit here and say I have the
answers to it, but I know thatthere have to be answers to that
(42:53):
problem.
So what are we going to doabout it?
Well, we can't talk about itbecause we're so busy being told
those darn Mexicans arestealing our jobs, or all those
poor people.
Why are they being exploitedlike that?
That's terrible.
We're so busy in thosearguments that we don't have
time or energy or desire to getit.
(43:15):
As you've been saying over andover again, the root cause,
what's the root cause?
I can tell you.
More often than not, it'sfollow the money.
That's where the root cause isAbsolutely crime.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
You take out the current state of flow course,
all those citrus farmers.
They voted a lot of policy.
Those policies generatedinaction, a lot of the Latinx.
They say you know what we'releaving here, you know what I
mean.
Now they say, oh well, comeback.
It's just amazing how againshoot themselves in the foot for
(43:48):
their particular belief systemAnd the way it's been crafted.
The way it's been crafted Andthe crime you're right.
And again it's in collusionwith governmental authorities
pay for a specific thing to beaddressed or not.
And that's where we, as a people, again it's like we have to go
(44:10):
back to that thing we weretalking about a little bit.
Is this thing been doneknowingly?
Was it done on purpose And thatkind of do the crime And, of
course, some of the greatestcrimes that had been by our own
government?
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, well, and by I'm a broken record.
I hold the media response.
I hold our leaders responsible.
I hold our businessesresponsible.
We're all part of it And, folks, i hold us responsible.
We have a responsibility, we asthe people, we, the people of
the United States of America,believing that there can be a
(44:43):
more perfect union.
We came out of a situation with,you know, being ruled by a
country that was thousands ofmiles away, under a king or
kings that were varying degreesof corruption and various
degrees of enjoying the moneythat we were bringing them
through taxation.
We fought against that becausewe knew there was a better way,
(45:06):
and we have to, as those samepeople, be the ones that do that
analysis of character or dothat informational you know
exposure.
Challenge your biases,challenge your biases.
There's one thing I appreciateabout having been a theater
person I learned early on as anactor no one sees themselves as
an antagonist.
(45:26):
We all believe that.
We believe the things webelieve because we have good
reason to, and because of that,we don't challenge why we
believe those things nearlyenough to say, well, maybe,
maybe I need to have moreinformation about this and
consider that there might beother facts, truths, situations,
(45:48):
perspectives that are importantbefore I decide what's right or
wrong, before I decide what thebest course of action for me.
When I get into that votingbooth and cast a vote, or when I
buy a product that you know mydaughter is great at that She'll
she will stop buying fromcertain groups because she reads
about the leadership of thatcompany and is so mad about what
(46:11):
they do to their, their people,or what their business
practices are.
And she'll say you know what?
I'm not shopping there, i'm notbuying stuff from that
organization Because I don'tagree with what they're doing.
So she votes with herpocketbook, she votes with her
dollars.
You know, and you can do thesame thing with the people you
work around.
You know your union.
(46:32):
You can do the same thing withthe you know CEO company you
work for and say you know, oryour fellow workers and say you
know, that's not right Thatwe're doing there What you know,
your gossip that you're doing,that you don't know nothing
about this and you're spreadingrumors about something that you
know nothing about.
Why are you doing that?
That's just causing divisionism.
(46:53):
That's just, you know,furthering a bias that you don't
know.
You're just spouting up becauseyou got an opinion and you
think your opinion is reality.
Well, it's not.
It's not.
I can guarantee my opinionsaren't reality, but I'm trying
to figure out better opinions.
I'm trying to figure out moreinformed.
It doesn't make me better thananyone, that just makes me.
(47:14):
I'm trying to be responsible.
You know, we talk about rightsbut we gotta.
We have all kinds of rights.
We have a right to freedom ofspeech, we have a right to
freedom of religion, but we havea responsibility to to make
sure that we execute thoserights in non criminal, non
offensive, non, you know, justoppressive, whatever ways that
(47:35):
impact other folks and ways thatmake their lives harder.
You know, it's pretty simplewhen you look at it from the
human perspective, instead ofthe things that are being force
fed to us because we want it,it's like we're freaking.
You know we treat informationlike it's Cheerios or corn
flakes or frosted flakes orApple Jacks.
(47:58):
You know I like Apple Jacks.
Well, if you eat a steady dietof Apple Jack, you know.
So why do we is just one sideof an equal the Apple Jacks.
People aren't going to that.
That's a bad thing, you know.
Nor is Newsmax, nor is is CNN.
They're not going to tell youthat you know they're only
giving you a biased one side ofthe coin.
They're fair and balanced,right, what's fair and balanced,
(48:21):
and you know it's having peoplethat don't agree with you.
I want to be around people thatdon't agree with a lot, because
that's how I learned that.
Oh yeah, i never thought aboutit that Okay, now let me think
about that more.
That's a good place to be.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Antoine, are you still here, Oh?
Speaker 2 (48:36):
oh, you're listening.
Oh, wow, okay, cool I was.
That means I must have beensaying something, maybe kind of,
i don't know, maybe good, Was Isaying something good?
So, there we are.
We could talk about crime for along time, I think.
And here we are at already youknow an hour and we keep telling
ourselves we're going to try tolimit ourselves to 45.
(48:58):
Yeah, that happens.
So, uh, well, we got to comeback to this whole like a lot of
stuff and uh, and get some moretalking done.
Absolutely, What do you think?
All right, I agree, So I don'tknow what we're talking about.
Next time, Do you know whatwe're talking about?
You got any ideas?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
I guess we determined in our what about you, Zerain?
Speaker 2 (49:19):
what are your closing thoughts?
And I've been talking a lot,I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
No, this again it's like I would desire it, but
actually you're being toldsomething, to research it and
not just a hanging on another uh, regardless of uh, because
again, what we've allowedalternative you created within
this country right before I,very out, just uh, varying
against different disinformants,uh, fall flexion and projection
(49:43):
and all these different.
So it just it's like now it'sjust my to go and research
things yourself and go outsideyour normal uh sphere, sphere of
uh information, where you getyour information from and see
effective, and see and see what,what resonates with your spirit
, you know, and the research,because again, we're being
(50:03):
mislead on every side.
It's uh, we're just going to fitmore with uh, what we line up
with, but again it's like wehave to really start to be
mindful of what we're liningbecause you know, uh, at the end
of the day, it's about humilityfor anything absent.
So, are you loving somebody orare you really love a thing or a
person?
And I think the order of theday is love, and so just um, I'm
(50:24):
going to just challenge peopleto really do their own research,
you know, do their own researchAnd we can go, like you said,
about what is crime, what is notcrime and the end of crime and
the very breeze of crime.
At the end of the day, a lot ofthings have been done.
No, we haven't said anything,so just uh, really, research
challenges, that's a that's hardmove to make this world better.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
And that you know that comes down to if I'm, if I
listen to the other side of uhof an argument and they're there
, there's not just one.
it does take time and you gotto want to learn, but if I hear
something that I am disagreeingwith my, my first inclination
will share it is to go.
that's a bunch of but then ifyou can learn to ask a question,
(51:10):
i've found that's reallyhelpful to say.
but what about?
it is true, i might not agreewith it, i might think that
that's a bunch of hole, but Ihave to also be asking myself
well, what if it is true?
What if there is some truth?
Cause I can tell, i can.
I'd be the first one to admitthat anybody that has a point to
argue is not telling you thewhole picture.
(51:30):
They've got an agenda, they'vegot their own bias that they're
trying to inform.
They've got their own audiencethat they're trying to speak to.
I get it That that's just theway things work, but that, as
the person that's consuming theend, you've got to be able to
ask yourself well, what ifthey're not telling me the whole
picture?
And so now I'm going to findsomebody that completely
(51:51):
disagrees with them And they'renot going.
they're sure not going to tellme that what that other person
is is saying is true.
They're going to.
they're going to say thatthey're lying to you, which,
okay, they're going to.
that's what I do when I want towin an argument.
I say you're full of hokum onthe other side of this, but and
I'm going to give you anotherside to think but and I'm the
things I'm going to say that'snegative about them.
(52:13):
What if there's some truth tothat?
And if the things that they'resaying that are positive about
this discussion are true, whatdoes that say about it?
But their truth is going to bebiased as well.
So there's all we.
we have to challenge our ownbiases.
So we're going to learn moreabout where's the real answer
here.
Sometimes it's really, reallycomplicated.
(52:33):
You can't come up with ananswer.
but there's no money to be madein not having an answer.
It really isn't, because thatmakes people stop and think, and
the stopping and thinking isit's expensive, it opportunity
costs.
My mother-in-law used to saythat all all right, man.
So it's, it's always cool.
I hope somebody out there gotsomething up this, like I did.
(52:54):
I'm, i'm, you know, come awaygoing.
yeah, that's right, that'sright.
Oh, i didn't think of that.
I love that.
So thanks, brother, appreciateit.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
And you feel, as always be here.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
Thanks for listening to the frame of reference coming
together.
Thanks for coming together,dude.
Hey, thank you.
See you next time, folks, orhear you next time.
Music.
That's it.
Hey, what's happening?
Is this Antoine on the otherend, is that who I'm talking to?
Antoine Holman, The one andonly Antoine Holman.
See you, that's you.
Okay, yeah, so this is you.
And then who am I?
again, i don't remember minefor the time.
The Fresh LeBresh Look, freshLeBresh.
Hey, i could go buy that.
(00:36):
This is LeBresh, this is FreshLeBresh.
Huh, could we bill ourselvesthat, antoine and Fresh LeBresh?
would that be okay?
I think that could be amarketing mirror.
What?
I'm sorry, that could be amarketing.
See, it's done, that could be abonanza man.
I could see billboards withthat on it Between Antoine and
(00:58):
Fresh LeBresh every Saturdaymorning or whenever you know.
But anyway, yeah, yeah, i'd beokay with that too.
So we are on, you know, theForeman frame of reference thing
again with the.
You know, we're coming together, together to do this frame of
reference thing.
Antoine does a great job ofdescribing this.
(01:18):
You know, we're just, we'rejust a couple of guys that are
not experts by any means inanything other than what we've
seen in our lives And I.
The one thing I see in my lifeabout black people and white
people getting together is wejust do not understand each
other and what people come from,because we don't have that
(01:40):
background anymore than I can.
Frankly, i can understand whata woman experiences as a woman.
You know any man that thinkshe's, you know, has got it
together with oh, i'm sosensitive to their issues, you
know that can be like reallydisruptive to people If you say
that to the wrong woman and youare going to get your head bit
off because you cannot know whatit's like.
(02:01):
So you know, here we are justtrying to kind of give our
perspectives on it, right, imean, and say you know, i don't
know how you feel about that,but hopefully you'd like to see
the world be a little nicerplace, and I'd like to see it be
that way, and we might havesomething that'll help you.
So I'm thinking that you know.
(02:22):
On, this conversation yeah, goahead Sorry.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
No, just hopefully provoke some thought that or
look ends than what they areaccustomed and just say wow, i
know that I did not understandthat.
Or like that light bulb momentwhere oh now why?
why that behavior or thatsituation or that thing is about
?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Like I say, this is too regular guys, but would both
have a different lifeexperiences And some are this to
the table.
Raoul had a very open about ourown personal life, with the
hope giving people understandingthat none of we're not too much
.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, well, that's the thing too right, isn't it?
In my mind, the thing I'veenjoyed about our conversations
is that a number one I don't, idon't.
You know anyone I talk to, idon't have their experience, i
just don't know, i don't careyou know what your nationality
or religion, you just, you justdon't know.
You know what people'sperspective is And, like that
(03:22):
old saying, you know, two headsare better than one.
Two frames of reference topeople's, you know, different
extents and ways of seeing theworld can be really helpful.
Because now we're going tospeak to not just the people
that understand how I see which,who knows if there's anyone out
there going man, he's got areally but there's somebody
either to be somebody'slistening regularly out there,
(03:43):
that's going.
Yeah, he makes a good point.
But then I, from my perspective, i get your perspective on
things and I go.
You know, i never thought of itthat way.
That makes sense.
I can see why someone wouldthink about it that way And
that's important to consider,the fact that you do think about
it differently, you do have adifferent perspective, and it's
not just media hype or it's notjust you know.
(04:06):
I've made that point before.
If anyone doesn't, you know, iswatching the news and not
realizing that the news iscrafted for a particular point
of view and a particular bias.
And they look at the numbersthat say these are the, these
are the episodes, this is theinformation that people want to
see.
So we're going to do more of it.
(04:26):
Look at these, these five guysthat ended up getting killed in
the submarine or submersibleSorry, it's not a submarine, but
you know we we followed thatfor a week.
You know people wanted to knowmore about that whole thing.
So the media just had a heydaywith that and giving people what
they want.
And media today is no differentthan hamburgers.
(04:48):
You know, mcdonald's came on aformula for hamburgers that
people really liked, and nowthey've sold literally billions
of them.
Well, guess what?
Media is the same way.
Now here we are, though, withframe of reference coming
together.
You know I'm not tied andAntoine's not tied to any
constituency of sponsors thatare saying we don't like you
(05:09):
doing more.
Hey, do that story more.
We're just talking about thingsthat matter, you know, and I
can talk about my family and mymy family's perspective on our
topic today, right, which iscrime, and white people tend to
feel look at crime as being adifferent animal, caused for
(05:30):
different reasons, by differentpeople, than black people do.
Right Is it?
am I wrong or Antoine?
You know we, antoine, i'm goingto go to start, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Go ahead, no just saying Yeah because nullified,
it has projected and it's just aitself, or the crime is used to
invoke, create an action, tojust talking before we came on.
When we talk about crime as isa narrative, who's presiding
over crime?
you know, you got those types.
(06:03):
Yeah, misdemeanor could be afelony, it could be a felony
misdemeanor, or it could be aninfraction.
Sometimes it's crime how crime,how it is dealt with and
defined.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
You know we were talking about the whole issue of
drug addiction and how, whenthe media describes the crack
epidemic and you know we came upwith things like crack baby you
put a derisive, or you know, tomake the people that were
addicted to crack.
(06:36):
You know women that wereaddicted and anyone that's been
addicted to anything knows thataddictions are just horrible
things, that you know victimizepeople because they're in.
You know situations where,whatever escapism, you know they
want to feel better and youknow drugs give them a way to
feel some sort of euphoria.
(06:56):
I mean, the reason thingsbecome addictive is because,
just like you know, going outwith your friends and drinking
too much, if you start drinkingtoo much too often to relieve
stress, guess what?
you're gonna get addicted toalcohol, you're gonna become an
alcoholic.
It's just the way those thingswork.
But we depict it thatderisively, that that you know,
(07:19):
like these people are not howcould a mother do that to her
baby, right?
And that that that's a realissue.
That happens, you know, and itis a horrible thing, but we are
trained to not see it compared,whereas with the opium epidem,
heroin epidemic that tends to bedepicted in situations like
West Virginia, where there are,you know people that were hurt
(07:41):
in coal mines.
You know guys that worked theirbuns off and ended up getting
injured And because they wereinjured they got prescribed an
opioid.
You know whether it be, youknow some sort of you know
cocaine or heroin, or you knowthey don't call it that.
But you know there are thingslike Percocet, which is, you
know, a controlled substance,right?
(08:02):
So people get prescriptions forthat And then over a period of
time the prescription runs outor they lose their job because
they can't work anymore.
And now they can't get that.
Well, guess what, when you getprescribed an opiate for a
period of time, you're going tobecome addicted And you don't
like the pain When you come offof it.
The pain is, you know, muchless of an attractive
(08:23):
proposition than taking theopioid.
But my point in all that isbecause that whole story is we
tend to see that as those poorpeople, those poor guys, that's
not fair.
Why did that happen?
So our perspective is craftedtowards a sympathetic,
compassionate, empatheticviewpoint instead of a
(08:44):
judgmental.
Those people are awful.
Now, you could just as easilyflip that.
You could just as easily look atthe guys that you know, the
dumb idiots.
Why are they taking that thing?
Why aren't they like?
you know, people that I knowpersonally that have to take
that because they're in severepain too, and they purposely
take as little as pop becausethey want to numb the pain, but
(09:06):
they don't want to get addicted.
They realize the dangersinvolved in that.
So I could just as easily say,well, why can't they do like my
friend did here and not getaddicted?
You know what kind of idiotsare they?
Well, that would be mean andcruel And you know you'd be like
What's his problem?
But, and I could just as easylook at the women that you know
have children that are crackbabies and say those poor women,
(09:28):
what's going on in their lives?
that gosh, what can we do tohelp them so that that doesn't
keep happening to babies?
That's just wrong.
That's, you know we.
We got to do something aboutthat.
No, we'd otherwise them andturn them into animals or some
kind of you know, mutant speciesthat ought to know better.
Okay, so come on, folks, thinkabout it first.
(09:49):
Think about it.
What's going on with this?
What is going on at the root ofthe whole thing?
What's going on with this?
Well, it's all designed to keepus apart, to keep us doing the
same crap that we've been doingfor literally hundreds of years,
to be able to see the otherside of the equation as being
either we align with it and say,oh my, yeah, that's terrible,
(10:12):
we should do something, or allthose people just need we just
wipe out those neighborhoods, wejust need to get rid of the
weed or whatever You know.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
I just made a point where it's like, when we're
talking about like went back tothe 90s and now we're.
You know, of course, the crackepidemic.
It was criminal, it's a crime,but now opium or opioid
addiction is treated as adisease.
And again it's about thenarrative that has been created.
It's like a.
It's like a doctor thatmisdiagnosed whatever ailment.
(10:40):
You prescribed a medicationthat medicated, underlying
existing issues but it onlyexacerbates.
You know, just like amisdiagnosed compromises The
public say.
A lot of these unsuspectatedcrime narratives prevent us from
understanding the fact andcontributing to crime.
You know, of course, when wetalk about poverty, just
(11:00):
generational poverty, you knowall these different things that
are factors And again, i'll bethe most ever making excuse for
anyone doing anything wrong.
But you got to understand theactual situation where a person
it would end.
You know, of course, becauseagain, like what we're seeing
now, you know, going back evento the 80s.
You remember when Mike, thekind of for president put that
(11:22):
up here, willie Green and it wasthe purpose of it, was you know
but what?
about.
You know, like say, you knowthat was one side of talk about
white the Bernie Madoffs.
So just kill people, takeeverything they have.
And it just one crime or oneperception of crime is
definitely true to any other.
That's why the crime can be howthe crime is presided.
(11:45):
And again these narratives like, say, the Lindsey Graham's of
the world who say, oh, we justneed more aggressive prospects,
need to increase police funding.
And then of course you're likethe mayor of New York I can't
walk the top but he'll saysomething like, oh, oh, cut out
bail, bail bonds.
Men's, people that are havebeen charged with a crime or are
(12:06):
arrested and convicted of acrime can't get out of jail soon
.
So it's just differentnarratives people come in at
different that you know.
The narratives that are beingset, just like the doctor
misdiagnosing a issue, ourmisdiagnosing the causes of
crime, Well and we're avoidingdealing with the causes of it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
You know, ultimately, you know I might my thing that
I do periodically.
Antoine Wilkin will corroboratethis.
I like to look at thedefinitions of words because we
have a tendency to kind of havea general understanding what the
crime means, but I think ithelps to crystallize how the
word is actually described.
So I looked up crime and it has.
(12:46):
It has two primary meanings.
One is an action or a missionthat constitutes an offense that
may be persecuted, prosecutedby the state And, as it as that
is a fact, it's punishable bylaw.
But the second definition isthe one that I really I think
hits on all the different levelsof crimes that are being so.
(13:09):
And that second definition isan action or activity that,
although not, is considered tobe evil, shameful or wrong, as
in they condemned apartheid as acrime again.
Or it's a crime to keep acreature like Willie in a tank.
(13:29):
So we look at those things andsay, all right, let's look at
the opioid epidemic, right, solet's take that back a step.
So where's the crime in that?
the crime is in, in my mind,not only not the education of
the person that's beingprescribed the opioid and we
don't know for sure.
But are those people beingeducated with?
(13:51):
Okay, here are the risks andhere are the things that we want
to do to monitor, to try tocontrol the addiction that's
going to happen.
Okay, so that's that's kind ofa crime if that isn't happening
in a way that really informs thetaker of the medicine that is
known to be addictive.
It's just like the SurgeonGeneral's warning that finally
got put on cigarettes afteryears of the tobacco industry
(14:15):
fighting that, because theydidn't want that knowledge of
what cigarettes did to people,what the research clearly showed
smoking did to people.
They didn't want thatinformation in people's hands.
So, who knows, are thepharmaceutical companies behind
wanting to make sure that thateducation doesn't happen and
telling the doctors we wouldrather you not tell people's,
(14:35):
and if you don't, we'll give youa really good deal on purpose.
And then you take another stepback.
What about the crime that'sbeing committed by the medical
industry?
that, to your point, antoine,we aren't treating the root
cause, we aren't doing theexpensive procedures that might
actually make a longer lastingimpact on not only that person's
(14:57):
pain but that person's issueswith functionality, right, you
know, make it more affordablefor people to have those, either
corrective surgeries or otherthings that could could help
with that.
And then, on the the crack sideof it, why aren't we doing to
help the poverty that thesepeople are in?
Why aren't we doing somethingto make the living conditions
(15:20):
for the people that become crackaddicts so that they're not as
inclined to want to do that,that they're not as inclined to
want to sell that?
And we talked about that toobefore we came on about the guys
that are selling this stuff.
Well, think about it practically, folks.
If you have an opportunity as akid or a young guy to sell
(15:40):
drugs to people that you cansell, tell you in your mind, hey
, they want to buy it.
All I'm doing is providing aservice.
You know I'm not.
you know, yeah, it's an illegalsubstance, but you know what
the heck?
they're going to buy it from meor they're going to buy it from
somebody else.
I'm, you know I'm not going tostop that.
Or you can go make 15, 16, 17dollars an hour at McFarland at,
you know, mcdonald's, or youcan make $5,000 a week selling
(16:04):
crack.
Well, when you're living in theconditions that those folks are
living in, what would you choose?
I defy people that arelistening right now that are in
pretty you know, even decentsituation.
If you had a chance and youcould get past what?
maybe you were trained by yourmom to never do that, or your
dad.
but let's face some kids thatare in those situations.
(16:24):
They don't, you know, theydon't have that kind of
structure in their life thatsays, absolutely, my son, my
daughter will not do that.
So they're just the moms andthe dads are trying to survive
themselves.
They don't, they can't do nordo that.
They've been educated, probably, to do anything other than do
what you have to to survive inthis world, man, do what you
(16:46):
have that.
That, to me, those are thecrimes.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Exactly And, of course, level or crime, the type
of who is alleged to perpetratethe crime.
You know, of course, again,like, say, big pharma, they not
only did fame this opioidaddiction with something that
was open, not only it was legal,yes.
However, the data and it was acrime, the fact that they are
(17:10):
lied, or like that definitionmid it, parts of what the
effects were, which is addictionAnd but, yeah, you know, is of
the money that it generates, isthe narrative to our heads that,
oh well, it's not, this is a.
These or all poor, those poorworkers that are in these,
because, understand this, youknow, let's just say, a laborer
(17:32):
working south side of Chicagofalls off a route, he's not
going to get prescribed openly,he gonna have to be dealt with.
The pain is, again, is thiscontribute to the factors of
what we will a crime?
And that's where it's kind of,it's disheartening, because I'll
say this, i've said this in acouple of our other Hey, i'm a
from the crime, you the timejust point blank, regardless of
(17:55):
if you do the crime, you do theand.
But, however, a lot of instance, even looking at the news
present day, a lot of beingvarious crimes that again, like
in that perceived as a crime, ifmorally wrong or whatever.
However the law is interpretedby X, y, crime, it can see, kind
of comes in a because again,this thing has been the
(18:15):
beginning of time but yet wehave to get to the deep, i think
we have to get.
I believe that we have to getcalls.
When we say crime, the calls ofit And of course this thing is
going to go back 100 again toaddress them because we can put
a bandaid on it by saying oh, wehave a tougher laws, we can do
all.
We can have stronger lawenforcement, we can have a
(18:36):
stronger system, we can do allthese different things.
But who calls is going to costmoney.
Most powers that be don't wantto spend the money because you
don't want to acknowledge that.
You acknowledge that you haveto spend the money to
acknowledge.
Well, i'm gonna say in a lot ofinstances, you homelessness as
an example, a lot of communitieswon't acknowledge to have a
(18:58):
homeless problem.
They have to the problem withrequire them to spend money And
again, so what happens arepowers that be local media,
national media, whatever thecase may be, will create a
narrative that will actuallydeflect from the new or project
the issue, or to another groupor circumstance, yeah, yeah, and
(19:18):
it's like the stats, totallythe stats on crime, again, this
kind of misleading, you knowcourse.
So you got to think pre andpost COVID When we talk about
these numbers, because everynotice you only hear about crime
the midterms and you know,during election time, that's
when you start to hear, you knowto sway people.
(19:40):
And again that, how many timeshave we said, raul, don't people
stop being single issue votershere, the whole, near the whole.
Here go fact check for yourself.
Because remember, remember thisofficial's name.
He was in the state of New YorkBut he ran on the fact he was a
tough on crime.
High crime, the number wascrime, but get the test to find
(20:00):
in front of a committee.
And then he had to eat hiswords and say, because he was
questioned, like well, you saidthat crime was high in all these
different things, but yet thenumbers there was a decrease.
And he admit.
But did he get, was he adelusive seat in that state
legislature?
No, and again, it's these.
This type of rhetoric leads to aharmful kind of productive part
(20:24):
that you know this harm,particularly black and brown,
right, you know, in the courseof when we start, you know
peddling, but they, they, thepeddling.
That a tough on crime narrative.
It's not new in the time Andbut yet the same time have not.
We just need people to reallyresearch for themselves what's
happening in their areas.
Does crime is absolutely, yes,but let's get, let's get the,
(20:47):
get the numbers yourself, butalso start underlying causes of
well, when we start to addressthe underlying causes we're
actually putting.
We're not just putting a bandaidon a thing or even exacerbating
a crime by, like you know, aperson can.
Depending on the person, acrime can be either an
(21:08):
infraction or it could bepersecuted.
Persecuted, prosecuted, pens onthe narrative.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Or just be evil.
Yeah, it can just be an evil,shameful thing.
You know, like that second deal, you like people ought to know
better, or you know people thatthat have power and money ought
to be able to be heldresponsible for the fact that.
dude, what are you doing here?
I get that.
you know you have to beprofitable.
I get that your business, if itdoesn't make a profit, is not
(21:37):
going to exist.
Okay, i get that.
I really do that.
as a businessman myself, iunderstand that fundamental
thing that goes on.
But I mean we'll, we'll look atthe oil industry.
you know some people look atthat and say, my God, it's an
absolute crime that those oilmongols you know the Saudis or
whatever are making all thatmoney on oil when they know that
(22:00):
it's polluting the skies andthat it's causing all kinds of
problems.
Now, if you don't believe inclimate change, fine, but you
know that smog is an issue, thatit's hard for people to breathe
in areas where there's tons andtons of cars, why aren't they
spending some of that money ondeveloping alternative types of
fuel?
We have that ability to do itand it would be much better for
everybody involved.
(22:20):
Well, you hit it on the headbecause you got to spend money
to do that, and if there's onething that you don't want to do
is spend money when you don'thave to spend, you would rather
just collect the revenue That's.
that's like the you know thepenultimate thing in business.
If you can have a cash cow thatjust keeps feeding you money
without spending any money,guess what That means?
(22:41):
you make more money and moneybuilds money.
I get it, that's fundamental.
That's fundamental to how thesethings work.
But at the end of the day, icheck.
I ask people not only toeducate but be aware of your
bias, because I remember hearingthis one guy who was a writer
for a show and he said, you knowpeople talk about crime is
increasing.
(23:01):
And he said, you know, let'sjust, let's call it what it is.
That means that black peopleare doing more stuff, or you
know this, now that black peoplemoved into my neighborhood,
crime is going to increase That.
So we equate, for God's sake, weequate blackness with crime.
It's like you look in thedictionary and if you looked up
(23:21):
this, this different definitionof crime, some people would
expect they're able to.
They're being really honest.
They put a picture of a blackperson there That would define
all you need to define aboutcrime.
Well, really, seriously, that'swhat we're going to.
You talk about putting a faceto things.
That's how we put a face to it.
Folks, as white folks And onthe other side of the equation,
(23:42):
i don't know, antoine, when you,when you, look at crime, do you
, do you have, you know,brothers and sisters and friends
that think about crime andthink about what, about the
crimes that are being committedagainst us.
You should put a white personthere.
Sorry, you broke up there, i'mnot catching you.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Oh, you should come up.
I say the automotive or eventhe drug industry.
Right, you know they'll sayit's a cheap.
They do that.
It's cheaper for us to pay afull death lawsuit, that's a
fixed.
The problem that exists withour product, yeah, and that goes
forever.
And then it's still going.
And now if you tell me thatthat should like say with the,
(24:19):
the omissions of automobiles is,you know, we are trying to, you
know, go in a differentdirection.
However, people that have bigpots, that are industry or that,
like the co-authors that ownrubber, basically saying Hey, we
don't want people patient, wedon't want high speed rail that
will minimize any air because itwill kill our pockets and will
(24:40):
stop buying our product.
Right And and again it's likethe big part is it's like these
factors have our politicians.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
They you broke up again.
We are having problems thismorning.
We apologize, we're.
We're having problems thismorning with audio folks, so
things drop out, we're, weapologize.
That's, that's unfortunate Andwe we tried to solve it a couple
of different ways.
But if things drop out, bepatient with us, because we're
aware of the problem.
We're trying to fix it as we goalong.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Right, sorry, sorry And yeah, just you know, just
getting fast for ourselves andreally getting calls of a
problem and challenging yourself, challenging.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I call on people to challenge your own belief system
and what you've been, whatyou've been led to believe, what
you're, what biases of yoursthat you have been, you know,
fed to build And you know whatare you attracted to.
Because we, i think honestly,information is an addiction to.
We get addicted to a certainpoint of view And we want to
(25:43):
feed that addiction.
That's the only way to explainthings like the different
narratives, as you've beentalking about over and over
again.
Right, the different narratives, the different sets of facts.
You know both, both sides ofany argument will choose very,
very wisely, astutely, you know,in informed, in a very informed
way, they will choose the factsthat they choose to represent
(26:05):
when they present a story, andyou know both may be telling,
quote unquote, truth, but whenyou take a fact outside of its
context and presented in acertain way, you are building a
bias.
That's the way that stuff works, that's the only way, and that
what we need to do is that's whyI like definitions is when you
go back to a situation like acrime and say this is something
(26:29):
that shameful it's, you know,ethically wrong, morally wrong.
You know people should feellike this.
Just shouldn't happen, that wehave that inside of each of us
has that this just shouldn'thappen.
Then you got to look at how isan issue being presented by one
side of the equation and how isit being presented by another
(26:49):
side of that argument, andsomewhere in the middle is
probably the truth, because bothsides of those are obviously
biased.
But if I believe something andtake any subject you want right
now Trump or Biden okay, if youthink Biden's a complete jerk
and you know what, what a moronhe's, you know old and feeble
and it's falling all over theplace.
You know he gets lost when he'son stage, whatever the stuff
(27:12):
that's you know set about him.
Or he's wrecking our economy,he's going to tax things, blah,
blah, blah.
Or you're on the Trump side ofthe equation.
You say you know that.
You know poor president, he.
You know the election wasstolen from him.
He was, you know just.
He was doing so much good forthe country.
He was, you know, doing allthese you know things that just
(27:33):
people didn't like.
He was standing up to theEuropeans.
You know he was looking at, youknow, nato and saying you guys
pony up for the money that youowe.
He was trying to stop theproblem with all these criminals
getting through the border.
There, you know those are.
There are some facts, there'ssome truth in all of that stuff.
I get it, but do you everchallenge yourself and say, well
(27:54):
, wait a minute.
What about these people?
What if the stuff that thepeople that you know are saying
about the insurrection?
what if these people that aretalking about the classified
documents and the top secretstuff President Trump is alleged
and in some cases, has admittedto having done?
Is that a crime?
Should he have done that as apresident, or are we going to
justify that?
(28:15):
And on the other side, you knowwhat?
if Biden is having issues,physical issues, that impair his
ability to be in one of themost important positions in the
world, are we willing to look atthat and come up with another
viable candidate on both sidesof the equation?
Can we come up with viablecandidates that would help bring
us together instead of continueto put the wedge deeper and
(28:38):
deeper into the polarization?
Because we will not.
We will not.
You know you cannot.
You cannot have a nation likethe United States of America,
which is a melting pot for allkinds of national cultures And
we have so much.
That is great, great.
So when people talk about makeAmerica great again, i want to
(29:01):
say do you want to, do you wantto look at another country and
tell me another country that hasgot as much stuff going for it
as America right now?
right now, look at anothercountry and tell me that there's
anyone.
Yeah, there are places likeNorway that do some things
really well with medicine.
There are places like, you know, france, that have wonderful
(29:22):
arts, you know, and do a lot tocultivate arts.
There are people like Germanythat have wonderful things, that
are going on with theirtechnology and advancement in
Israel.
There are all kinds of greatthings all over the world, and
America is the best at puttingall that stuff together and
trying the new thing.
So we have all kinds of issues,all right.
So I'm getting off on a pointto make a point, that is, we
(29:44):
need people that will bring thattogether and say there are
different points of view that weall we need to consider and
then make the best decision wecan from being informed, the
best that, and as long as weallow ourselves to only feed
ourselves and only look at theinformation that informs one
side, you know whether it's yourresponsibility anyone that's
(30:04):
listening right now.
It is your responsibility tofind the information, to
challenge your bias, to say,okay, what do I think about this
, why do I think it?
number one, challenge it andsay why do I think it And what's
an alternative thing, what's analternative way to look at it,
what's a different haha frame ofreference that I could use to
help inform myself and my biases.
(30:27):
In my opinion, in a better,more complete back to me, says
what this I'm sorry I keepinterrupting you because I get
on my tirades.
Man, you know I am.
I'm just I'm a passionate artsyguy and I get going on.
My family will tell you I don'tknow how to shut up, but I'm
shutting up, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You're fine.
This is all about man talkingit out and you have to paint the
pitch.
You know you got three types ofin sales.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
You know auditory, have visual, yeah you know that
right, You do, you do realestate sales.
You know that whole deal right,Have that in there, Yep, And.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
But going back saying that makes you point where the
likes.
You look at Trump in hissituation with the with top
secret documents.
You look at the opiate, thepharmaceutical.
You look at the automotivewe're talking about like a
challenge in our, regardless ofit's a white collar, a black,
bold collar crime, whatever tryto call it.
You got to ask yourself thatcommitted this thing?
did they do it knowingly, Didthey do it purposely, Or was it
(31:22):
just reckless and negligent?
All four are bad, Most caseslast.
Again, we use the document, usethe automotive industry as they
knowingly know that, oh yeah,airbags are defective or this
thing about their view isdefective, But it's going to be
just to pay a family X amount ofdollars recalling all these
vehicles and then then thuscrushing our marketability.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I lost again Dang it.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Products are affected by the again.
With the pharmaceuticals, withthe products we you know.
Hey, why do you think the meatpeople, people that are produced
, boy, they fight the USDA upand down, left and right.
What all is going on with ourfood While we talk about
regulation, right, that's all.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
we have regulations, so people don't like government
interference.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Things are a crime is a crime.
It depends on the level of itcould be committed knowingly,
but yet is it prosecuted.
And that's where we really lookat differential when it comes
to crime or interpretation ofcrime.
You made a great point earlier.
It's like again crime has youknow.
When you say crime, you thinkcriminal, you think black.
(32:34):
And when I think of criminal alot of times nowadays honestly I
think about you, know I believe, Ralph, we're both saying is
like a challenge to say, hey,regardless of the color of them
or the position of in a class of, say, did they, did they
knowing mislead it from thetruth?
Did they do this purpose?
Because if, if you're gonna, ifyou can answer that question,
(32:54):
you cannot be the possible crimehas been And yeah let's look at
the auto industry, for justtake another crime.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Okay, you could constitute as a crime the issues
of moving all of ourmanufacturing or a lot of our
main superlatives, like that.
Anyways, big companies make adecision to move production of
cars or all kinds of things toareas of the world where they
can produce those things forless money And they can produce
(33:23):
those things for greater profit.
All right.
So if you're working in Detroitand all of a sudden your
factory closes down or you'reworking here you know I live in
Wisconsin if you're working inJamesville, wisconsin, and you
know GM closes a plant downthere because they can make the
same thing with acceptablequality control in Mexico or
(33:44):
China or Malaysia or Thailand,wherever, and pay the laborers
considerably less than whatwe're.
We're paying people in the USfor a livable wage here And,
granted, the standard of livingand the cost of living in the US
is considerably higher than inthose places.
But what are you going to do?
(34:05):
If you're a businessman, ifit's your business and you want
to make a profit and yourstockholders are saying we want
greater dividends, you're goingto move.
You're going to take theexpense, the big hit, of putting
a factory in those placesbecause you can make more money.
That doesn't negate the crimethat you've committed against
your own you know people, theworkforce that's been with you.
(34:28):
But now let's take a stepfurther back.
What about the crime that'sbeing committed when the people
that are set as your union, asyour, your you know protecting
organization that's supposed tonegotiate the best wages for you
possible, what if those peoplearen't giving you all the
information, as a worker, thatyou need to say to your union
(34:51):
leaders hey guys, you know, ithink we got to listen more to
the heads of this, because inthis situation I think they're
right.
We just we can't afford as acompany, we can't afford the
kind of, you know, negotiationwe're asking, because it is,
it's going to get to the pointwhere they're not going to be
able to afford and they're goingto.
They're, you know, theirstockholders are going to insist
(35:12):
that they do something to makemore money.
On the other hand, what aboutthe businessmen?
what the crime that those CEOsare committing to to not say
when they could, hey, we'remaking record profits.
We need to turn more of thatback to our you know, we're
sorry stockholders.
We're going to, we're puttingup your you know we're going to
cut back your dividend becausewe want to reward our staff
(35:33):
that's working so hard to givethe products that are selling so
well for us, and that alltraces back to it.
If you want to look at somethinginteresting, look at how in the
19th century early 19th centurywe looked at leaders as people
that had integrity, that wereethical people, that were, you
know, worked, worried about andworked on things like building a
(35:54):
consensus between differentpoints of view.
Like Abraham Lincoln, he wasexcellent at bringing people
together from very differentpoints of view, people that
would argue with him vehemently.
He wanted those people togetherin his cabinet so that he would
make the best informed decision.
That character of a guy thatgrew up in lean to Abraham
Lincoln grew up in lean twos,basically three sided, you know,
(36:17):
log cabins with a piece ofleather hide as one wall in the
winter in Kentucky, all right.
So this is that he had thatkind of background.
Versus then, what happened laterin the 19th century was you had
people like Carnegie and youknow, was it J, not JP Morgan,
one of the I don't know, maybeit was JP Morgan who made huge
(36:38):
amounts of money in the steelindustry, the oil industry and
they were not necessarily themost ethical people.
Carnegie, you know both.
He admitted earlier in his lifehe was a you know jerk and
became then a hugephilanthropist because he saw
the error of his ways.
Morgan, i don't know, ever gotthere.
He really liked having that,all you know, creating that
(36:58):
empire.
So we went from thinking peoplewere good, leaders were ethical
, you know good people, topeople that were really
competent, good businessmen.
And that's the world we live intoday.
We still have not gotten thething through our head that I
want to vote for people.
When I vote for people,honestly, i don't vote Democrat
or Republican.
I look at the character of theperson that's seeking to be my
(37:23):
representative And I try to findthe best person and do the
research that I need to do tofigure out just the best person.
Because at the end of the day,it's your character that will
determine how you look atregulations, legislation,
whatever, and how you determine.
You know what's the right thingto do and very difficult.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
It's your character, not your competence, that's
going to determine you know whenyou were Yep, you made a great
point when you're talking aboutcompanies leaving areas and
leaving the country forfinancial gains.
So because, again, you look ata crime as a criminal, like you
said, i use when I'm right outof house to work at a big
(38:04):
manufacturer of these thingscalled lunchables.
Yeah, i eat lunchables.
Those lunchables, of course.
what they started to do theybecause that basically had to
pay us $13 and I ended up movingfuller than California had to
pay $6.50.
And then, of course, that was ayes, that's a is it?
was it illegal for them to tryto grow that?
No, well, again, the rotationof a crime in more, but at the
(38:29):
same time also to give theirstock is a better mark, but also
they're doing it knowinglycommitted over and over again.
Is these companies not pay yourtaxes right?
And then it's amazing how thesecompanies that don't pay their
fair share of taxes.
They move their money all overthe world to avoid paying tax,
(38:50):
And then, of course, thepolitics elect into office will
actually help them hide there orhelp them to minimize their
liability.
And but yet, when it comes tothese, things are being done
knowingly and purpose.
That's where I talk about.
People have to know what andwhat they're voting for.
Follow the money, follow themoney Because of a political or
(39:15):
a charismatic convinced you of athing, but again, is that
that's a crime And it is a crimeof code.
I'm not gonna base my company,put my company's address in some
little note, because they don'tdo.
But I'm operating globally,making billions of dollars, but
I don't pay taxes because I'mstationed in the right.
(39:36):
And then, of course, then thepoliticians say well, you know
what you're right, and not onlyare, we will help put some laws
in place where your tax loopholeremains the same.
And then, that's where we areright now.
You know you look at aChristian cinema.
She refused to vote against abunch of good policy far as a
voting rights And in a lot ofother things she wanted the tax
(39:58):
loophole open for the wealthy.
Now and again Christian cinema.
She's a Democrat, right, butthis hat like not.
She's independent, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Well, and let's, let's take that.
That Fullerton thing.
That's another great example ofhow we are.
The narrative is crafted in acertain way depending on what
news source you look for.
The truth, whatever that is,And the the fact of the matter
is they moved to where,Fullerton California.
What do you think they use fora workforce there in Fullerton
California?
that's different than you knowhere in Wisconsin.
(40:27):
It was Latinx folks that werewilling to take a job for 650 an
hour, because it's six.
It's a whole lot more than theywould make in Mexico.
Which, oh, by the way, that wallthat we want to build.
There's a lot of people rightnow that you part.
You think the wall isn'tgetting built because the
Democrats are awful people.
The wall isn't getting built,which we could talk about the
(40:49):
wall too, and what problems thatsolves and what it doesn't
solve when you look at thatthing and what's going on with
it all.
But the reality is there are alot of people heck here in
Wisconsin that we don't checktheir papers, because if we
check their papers and find outthat they're here illegally,
we're not going to get the cropsout of the fields right now,
(41:09):
Because the the reality is thatthe folks that are either not
available, the guys just don'twant to do that work because
farming is tough work in hisback breaking work.
There are a lot.
There are not a lot of peoplethat want to do that work, But
the Latino looks that are in ourarea they'll take the work.
That's good work for them,That's good money for them.
(41:29):
They're happy to take thosejobs.
So what are you going to do?
if you're a farmer, you own abig farming operation.
What are you going to do tokeep your operation going?
You're going to not only takethat labor force, you're not
going to ask a lot of questionsand you're sure as hell not
going to mind paying them lessthan you'd have to pay or had
been paying to people that don'twant the jobs anymore.
(41:49):
So here's another idea, oranother example of the narrative
being crafted so that, ifyou're the one losing the job,
you're not being directedtowards hating the people or
committing the crimes of.
Why are we insisting that thesecompanies make so much profit at
the expense of people losingtheir jobs?
(42:12):
Why are we insisting that wepay people more money, which is
a fantastic thing But when youget paid more money, that
translates into your producthaving to cost more money,
because you can guess thatpeople aren't going to want to
have that profit streamdecreased.
That doesn't look good, Sothey're going to have to
(42:33):
increase their profit.
Well then what happens?
You're just going to pay morefor the things that you already
are struggling to pay for.
So it's a complicated thing.
Well, instead of working thatproblem out, which I don't have
the answers to it, I'm not goingto sit here and say I have the
answers to it, but I know thatthere have to be answers to that
(42:53):
problem.
So what are we going to doabout it?
Well, we can't talk about itbecause we're so busy being told
those darn Mexicans arestealing our jobs, or all those
poor people.
Why are they being exploitedlike that?
That's terrible.
We're so busy in thosearguments that we don't have
time or energy or desire to getit.
(43:15):
As you've been saying over andover again, the root cause,
what's the root cause?
I can tell you.
More often than not, it'sfollow the money.
That's where the root cause isAbsolutely crime.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
You take out the current state of flow course,
all those citrus farmers.
They voted a lot of policy.
Those policies generatedinaction, a lot of the Latinx.
They say you know what we'releaving here, you know what I
mean.
Now they say, oh well, comeback.
It's just amazing how againshoot themselves in the foot for
(43:48):
their particular belief systemAnd the way it's been crafted.
The way it's been crafted Andthe crime you're right.
And again it's in collusionwith governmental authorities
pay for a specific thing to beaddressed or not.
And that's where we, as a people, again it's like we have to go
(44:10):
back to that thing we weretalking about a little bit.
Is this thing been doneknowingly?
Was it done on purpose And thatkind of do the crime And, of
course, some of the greatestcrimes that had been by our own
government?
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, well, and by I'm a broken record.
I hold the media response.
I hold our leaders responsible.
I hold our businessesresponsible.
We're all part of it And, folks, i hold us responsible.
We have a responsibility, we asthe people, we, the people of
the United States of America,believing that there can be a
(44:43):
more perfect union.
We came out of a situation with,you know, being ruled by a
country that was thousands ofmiles away, under a king or
kings that were varying degreesof corruption and various
degrees of enjoying the moneythat we were bringing them
through taxation.
We fought against that becausewe knew there was a better way,
(45:06):
and we have to, as those samepeople, be the ones that do that
analysis of character or dothat informational you know
exposure.
Challenge your biases,challenge your biases.
There's one thing I appreciateabout having been a theater
person I learned early on as anactor no one sees themselves as
an antagonist.
(45:26):
We all believe that.
We believe the things webelieve because we have good
reason to, and because of that,we don't challenge why we
believe those things nearlyenough to say, well, maybe,
maybe I need to have moreinformation about this and
consider that there might beother facts, truths, situations,
(45:48):
perspectives that are importantbefore I decide what's right or
wrong, before I decide what thebest course of action for me.
When I get into that votingbooth and cast a vote, or when I
buy a product that you know mydaughter is great at that She'll
she will stop buying fromcertain groups because she reads
about the leadership of thatcompany and is so mad about what
(46:11):
they do to their, their people,or what their business
practices are.
And she'll say you know what?
I'm not shopping there, i'm notbuying stuff from that
organization Because I don'tagree with what they're doing.
So she votes with herpocketbook, she votes with her
dollars.
You know, and you can do thesame thing with the people you
work around.
You know your union.
(46:32):
You can do the same thing withthe you know CEO company you
work for and say you know, oryour fellow workers and say you
know, that's not right Thatwe're doing there What you know,
your gossip that you're doing,that you don't know nothing
about this and you're spreadingrumors about something that you
know nothing about.
Why are you doing that?
That's just causing divisionism.
(46:53):
That's just, you know,furthering a bias that you don't
know.
You're just spouting up becauseyou got an opinion and you
think your opinion is reality.
Well, it's not.
It's not.
I can guarantee my opinionsaren't reality, but I'm trying
to figure out better opinions.
I'm trying to figure out moreinformed.
It doesn't make me better thananyone, that just makes me.
(47:14):
I'm trying to be responsible.
You know, we talk about rightsbut we gotta.
We have all kinds of rights.
We have a right to freedom ofspeech, we have a right to
freedom of religion, but we havea responsibility to to make
sure that we execute thoserights in non criminal, non
offensive, non, you know, justoppressive, whatever ways that
(47:35):
impact other folks and ways thatmake their lives harder.
You know, it's pretty simplewhen you look at it from the
human perspective, instead ofthe things that are being force
fed to us because we want it,it's like we're freaking.
You know we treat informationlike it's Cheerios or corn
flakes or frosted flakes orApple Jacks.
(47:58):
You know I like Apple Jacks.
Well, if you eat a steady dietof Apple Jack, you know.
So why do we is just one sideof an equal the Apple Jacks.
People aren't going to that.
That's a bad thing, you know.
Nor is Newsmax, nor is is CNN.
They're not going to tell youthat you know they're only
giving you a biased one side ofthe coin.
They're fair and balanced,right, what's fair and balanced,
(48:21):
and you know it's having peoplethat don't agree with you.
I want to be around people thatdon't agree with a lot, because
that's how I learned that.
Oh yeah, i never thought aboutit that Okay, now let me think
about that more.
That's a good place to be.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Antoine, are you still here, Oh?
Speaker 2 (48:36):
oh, you're listening.
Oh, wow, okay, cool I was.
That means I must have beensaying something, maybe kind of,
i don't know, maybe good, Was Isaying something good?
So, there we are.
We could talk about crime for along time, I think.
And here we are at already youknow an hour and we keep telling
ourselves we're going to try tolimit ourselves to 45.
(48:58):
Yeah, that happens.
So, uh, well, we got to comeback to this whole like a lot of
stuff and uh, and get some moretalking done.
Absolutely, What do you think?
All right, I agree, So I don'tknow what we're talking about.
Next time, Do you know whatwe're talking about?
You got any ideas?
Speaker 1 (49:15):
I guess we determined in our what about you, Zerain?
Speaker 2 (49:19):
what are your closing thoughts?
And I've been talking a lot,I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
No, this again it's like I would desire it, but
actually you're being toldsomething, to research it and
not just a hanging on another uh, regardless of uh, because
again, what we've allowedalternative you created within
this country right before I,very out, just uh, varying
against different disinformants,uh, fall flexion and projection
(49:43):
and all these different.
So it just it's like now it'sjust my to go and research
things yourself and go outsideyour normal uh sphere, sphere of
uh information, where you getyour information from and see
effective, and see and see what,what resonates with your spirit
, you know, and the research,because again, we're being
(50:03):
mislead on every side.
It's uh, we're just going to fitmore with uh, what we line up
with, but again it's like wehave to really start to be
mindful of what we're liningbecause you know, uh, at the end
of the day, it's about humilityfor anything absent.
So, are you loving somebody orare you really love a thing or a
person?
And I think the order of theday is love, and so just um, I'm
(50:24):
going to just challenge peopleto really do their own research,
you know, do their own researchAnd we can go, like you said,
about what is crime, what is notcrime and the end of crime and
the very breeze of crime.
At the end of the day, a lot ofthings have been done.
No, we haven't said anything,so just uh, really, research
challenges, that's a that's hardmove to make this world better.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
And that you know that comes down to if I'm, if I
listen to the other side of uhof an argument and they're there
, there's not just one.
it does take time and you gotto want to learn, but if I hear
something that I am disagreeingwith my, my first inclination
will share it is to go.
that's a bunch of but then ifyou can learn to ask a question,
(51:10):
i've found that's reallyhelpful to say.
but what about?
it is true, i might not agreewith it, i might think that
that's a bunch of hole, but Ihave to also be asking myself
well, what if it is true?
What if there is some truth?
Cause I can tell, i can.
I'd be the first one to admitthat anybody that has a point to
argue is not telling you thewhole picture.
(51:30):
They've got an agenda, they'vegot their own bias that they're
trying to inform.
They've got their own audiencethat they're trying to speak to.
I get it That that's just theway things work, but that, as
the person that's consuming theend, you've got to be able to
ask yourself well, what ifthey're not telling me the whole
picture?
And so now I'm going to findsomebody that completely
(51:51):
disagrees with them And they'renot going.
they're sure not going to tellme that what that other person
is is saying is true.
They're going to.
they're going to say thatthey're lying to you, which,
okay, they're going to.
that's what I do when I want towin an argument.
I say you're full of hokum onthe other side of this, but and
I'm going to give you anotherside to think but and I'm the
things I'm going to say that'snegative about them.
(52:13):
What if there's some truth tothat?
And if the things that they'resaying that are positive about
this discussion are true, whatdoes that say about it?
But their truth is going to bebiased as well.
So there's all we.
we have to challenge our ownbiases.
So we're going to learn moreabout where's the real answer
here.
Sometimes it's really, reallycomplicated.
(52:33):
You can't come up with ananswer.
but there's no money to be madein not having an answer.
It really isn't, because thatmakes people stop and think, and
the stopping and thinking isit's expensive, it opportunity
costs.
My mother-in-law used to saythat all all right, man.
So it's, it's always cool.
I hope somebody out there gotsomething up this, like I did.
(52:54):
I'm, i'm, you know, come awaygoing.
yeah, that's right, that'sright.
Oh, i didn't think of that.
I love that.
So thanks, brother, appreciateit.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
And you feel, as always be here.
Speaker 2 (53:07):
Thanks for listening to the frame of reference coming
together.
Thanks for coming together,dude.
Hey, thank you.
See you next time, folks, orhear you next time.
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