July 28, 2023 • 52 mins
Could the world of theater evolve in this digital age? Ponder this as award-winning American playwright Jack Canfora and I discuss the future of theater in a Netflix-dominated era. With Jack’s career highlights, favorite plays, and playwrights, this conversation unravels the magic of live theater like never before.
From Hamlet to modern plays by Arthur Miller, we cover a wide spectrum of theater's beautiful landscape, discussing the elements that truly make a play stand out. Tasting the richness of live theater, we delve into its power to form a sense of community, discussing how it surpasses the experience of merely reading plays in school. We also consider how the digital world has stirred up the ways we communicate and interact. In the midst of all this, we take some time to indulge in discussions about our favorite comfort foods and furniture, underscoring the simple pleasures of life.
As we navigate through the complexities of art funding, we examine the potential pitfalls of government sponsorship and the critical role of private organizations. We also mull over the challenges of sustaining a theatre season. Jack provides insights into the way New Normal Rep is incorporating fresh voices and stories reflective of the audience's life into their productions. And then, we touch upon the profound—exploring the impact of tragedy and human behavior on his playwriting, particularly his play inspired by the events of 9/11. Listen in as we explore the world of theater, its challenges and triumphs, and the incredible power of storytelling.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Frame of Reference.
Informed, intelligentconversations about the issues
and challenges facing everyonein today's world.
In-depth interviews to help youexpand and inform your Frame of
Reference.
Now here's your host, raulLabresch.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Well, welcome everyone to another edition of
Frame of Reference Profiles andLeadership, and today it's my
distinct honor, pleasure andjust plain old good time to be
able to talk with a gentlemanthat I spent some time.
I believe it was like earlywinter-ish or mid-winter-ish
cold days back in February,january and my guest today, jack
(00:44):
Kanfor, and I got to talk toeach other on this podcast And I
had one of those kindred spiritkind of moments, and I'm not
trying to put you on the spot, ididn't have a kindred moment.
Think of it like a date thatwent, you know one person thinks
just wonderful.
The other person thinks it'slike, yeah, so fun Just to talk
(01:04):
with somebody that's in the bizin general too, in theater as an
art was just such a joy in somany ways.
So Jack agreed to come back andtalk with me.
I am speaking with none otherthan John Lawrence, jack
Kanforah.
So I saw that today.
It still looked to me, jack.
When I saw that, john Lawrence,i imagined your mom going, john
Lawrence, and you would know.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's.
I'm named after my dad,obviously, and so they didn't
want to have two people the samename in the house, because you
know it would be difficult totell which one she was yelling
at at any given moment.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
And you don't need to take the other one's stuff.
That's just not.
Yeah, i get it.
Yeah So, but yeah so?
Jack is an award-winningAmerican playwright.
He's an actor, he's a musicianand a teacher.
Received his dramatic trainingat the London Academy of Music
and Dramatic Art.
Beanna's career is an actor inregional theater, working mostly
in Shakespearean roles, thingslike Mercutio and Macbeth.
(02:07):
Those are small parts, aren'tthey?
if I remember right.
Yeah, yeah, very few line alittle Matt, a little Matt.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, very few lines.
you know, I ended up cutting alot, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, it's just like I forgot that scene.
Let's just skip that tonight.
So he's been hailed hailed, isay, by the associate press as
white hot entertainment for hisoff-Broadway plays, including
poetic license play setting andJericho, and as a New York Times
critic's pick.
So that America is why Jack andI are talking today, because
(02:39):
Jack is important and I am notSo, but and you need to all know
more about him, but as a personwho is steeped in theater, i
have lots of places my heartwants to go in talking with Jack
every time I talk to him.
So, jack, thank you, thank youso much.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
No, it's a pleasure to be back.
Had a great time and lookingforward to today, So so, jack, i
sense we talked last time.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I remember we always start out with the my favorite
things part of the podcast, so Ithought I kind of was trying to
run through where some newfavorite things I could do with
you to really stump you.
So this is a stump the Jacktime.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Okay, so Jack, what is your favorite play?
Speaker 3 (03:27):
That's mean.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
So I'm going to, i'm going to say I'm going to put
them in two categories.
I'm going to say, likeShakespeare and then other place
, okay, and I would have to say,is cliche, this is is.
It is probably my favoriteShakespeare plays Hamlet, and in
the non Shakespeare category, imight have to go with against a
(03:55):
cliche but I might have to gowith death of a salesman.
I'm also a huge fan ofespecially the first part of
angels in America, but TonyKushner, but yeah, i wish I had
something more imaginative.
But yeah, we'll go with those.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well, you know, but isn't that the thing with
favorite plays, favorite music,favorite artists, whatever?
It's all.
To me it's all about kind ofwhere we are at any given point.
To you, know, my who's someoneI was talking not too long ago
said their favorite book is theone they're reading right now.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
You know, yeah that's so true, And it's a question to
have, like what you know, sortof sort of a sort of a thing
test worth the first thing thatcomes to your mind.
And so right now, this morning,those are my, those are my
answers.
Another time I might very wellsay, you know, long-gauge dream
tonight.
Or you know, for example, Ithink August on such County like
(04:56):
Tracy Letts is among myfavorite plays, And one of the
best American plays of thiscentury certainly is a play by
Lucas Nath called The Christians, which I which is just eats me
up with envy every time I readit, because I wish I'd written
it.
And there are lots of you know,and there's no land, a great
place, but yeah, those are thefirst ones to pop into my head.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So what is your favorite thing about?
what a favorite play has I mean, are there elements there that
you, that you go?
oh, I'm going to like readingthis from almost the first
moment you start reading it.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Well, it's a really good question.
I don't know that I have oneset of criteria for, for example
, i love, for example, i lovethat Edward Albee plays as well.
Who's afraid of Virginia Woolfis such a remarkable play.
One of the things I love aboutit is it's sense of humor And so
.
But, for example, death of aSalesman has actually one or two
humorous moments in it, butit's really not funny in any way
(05:53):
.
Miller's not known for his joke.
So there are a couple of andthey're actually two jokes I can
think of in Death of a Salesmanthat both land.
But it's not a funny play, it'sa given away in the title, and
so it's just like you'reabsorbed in the characters world
And there's 100 different waysto get to that and playwrights
(06:14):
do it differently, like, forexample I'm using these sort of
old, old sort of classics asexamples.
I mean, longest journey intonight is to me absorbing
hypnotically.
So from the first page thedialogue isn't really very good,
but it's the characters and theway they you know O'Neill
(06:34):
builds their world and theirpsychology is so rich and so
thorough and so immediately realand accessible that you
absolutely bind to thesepeople's worlds.
So, you know, fence is byAugust Wilson really has a
little bit of everything.
It's got some humor, it's gotsome beautiful poetry, it's got
a compelling character.
(06:55):
I mean August Wilson sort ofyou know, is.
You know we're talking aboutbaseball players and the
character in Fence was abaseball player.
August Wilson was a five toolplaywright.
You know he could, you know hecould do it all, and so it
varies.
Like Miller isn't great onhumor but he brings so much, so
many other things to the table.
So you know it.
(07:18):
Just.
I wish I could give you a clearanswer on that.
Tony Kushner in Angels inAmerica deals with incredibly
serious, heartbreaking, sweepingand important topics, but does
so with great wit and also somegreat poetry.
I think if I had to narrow itdown to one thing would be that
I have to be sort ofpsychologically engaged and like
(07:41):
believe that these are realpeople dealing with stressful
things and there's a hundredways of portraying and doing it,
but I guess that probably isone common denominator, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, i don't know if it's something about getting
older.
You know, as we record this,i'm coming up on 63 years And
it's the.
It's the point where you know,i'd like, like Picard says in
one of the Star Trek movies,i've begun to realize that there
are fewer days ahead of me thanthere are behind me.
So but that kind of resonateswith me, the, the plays that
(08:10):
I've read lately, and I thinkhonestly, to a large extent the
plays that I read of yours justrecently, that where you have
that moment of just going, thisis an important thing, that
these people are dealing with.
These, these words that arebeing said here by this
character, in this context, havea much greater, much deeper
(08:31):
issue at the root of them thatwe all need to talk about.
And the play provides thecocoon, i guess, if you will,
where that can get talked about.
And I'm looking more and moreand more and more.
It's honestly, i like playsthat make me laugh.
I love the line in Jerichoabout.
You know, i it's not that Ialways had my shit together, but
at least it was within walkingdistance, you know it's, but so
(08:53):
those things can make.
That should be a classic.
Everyone should be saying thaton the streets regularly.
But your, i guess I will lookmore and more for a play that
just makes me stop and thinkmore, and maybe that's a
reflection of the world we livein, where there's so little of
that.
You know, it's like, it's likewe're almost being, you know,
(09:14):
pushed into not thinking ever,because if we, if we take a
second to look at the man behindthe curtain, we'll go Oh my God
, this isn't anything.
I thought it was right,actively discouraged.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Yeah, that's true, that's true.
As a man I'm friendly with, iwouldn't be so presumptuous to
say he's a friend of mine.
But he's the very well knownstand up comic named Gary
Goldman and he's had a bunch ofspecials on the HBO and and
Netflix and he is doing a setrecently in which he he's about
(09:46):
my age and said he hasn't doneany plastic surgery and he's
talking about his worry linesort of in between the eyebrows
and he says he doesn't trustanyone.
His age doesn't have those,because if you're not looking at
the world constantly and sortof making that scrunched up in
his face of incredulity, hecan't trust you.
And so I think that areprobably true.
(10:08):
And most of the world does sortof conspire, wittingly or
unwittingly, to sort of distractyou.
And one of the things I thinkplays do really well is they
like a good novel to.
The plays will sort of demandyou know, most a lot of the
great ones will demand you'dspend time dealing with
something very serious, andthat's not to say it's not that
(10:33):
great humor and entertainmentand it's hopefully never preachy
, but yeah, so it's sort of it'sa.
It allows you more time to diginto these issues, but again, it
has to be done in theentertaining way.
What's your favorite hobby?
Um, i love to play guitar.
Uh, i, i, i would take guitaroff top of my head, blind guitar
(10:56):
and singing, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So do you write your own stuff or just do covers?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I used to a lot of when I was younger.
I wanted to be a song writerand um, it's uh, but I, you know
, and I sorry and I wrote somesongs and when I was younger,
but I, i drifted away from thatbecause, um, well, for
confluence of reasons most Ithink mostly that like a 20 or
21, i thought, well, i'm not, idon't, i don't think I'm a,
really I think I could be anokay songwriter.
(11:20):
I don't think I'll be a reallygreat songwriter.
And so, um, and in fact, inthis, the play that my new
normal rep has online for free,um, it's not a musical at all,
but there's music in betweenscenes and stuff like that, and
I wrote that with my friend, robKoenig.
Um, and it's nothing you knowto say, i wrote that music even
(11:40):
sounds a little bit a pompousfor what it is.
You know we came up with thetunes, but, um, yeah, so I still
do that a lot, so that's fun.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Okay, How about let's ?
let's do something reallyarcane, bizarre.
How about your favorite pieceof furniture?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Well, i mean just like theoretically or like that,
i've that, i own or have beenin, um I there is a um, i have a
second hand, um leather chair,um on a swivel um, and it's
really uh hard to sit in andread because you fall asleep, or
(12:19):
I fall asleep very quickly uh,when I do that, uh, and that's
so I guess I would say that one,yeah, very, extremely
comfortable.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
How can you not like a chair that does that for you?
That's, uh, there's comfortfood and there's comfort
furniture, right?
So, so, which brings me to mylast question what would be your
favorite comfort food to havein your comfort furniture?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Whatever, whatever whatever's in front of me.
Um, i do.
um, i think I tweeted recently,like I think I said, you know,
i'm currently binge watchingfood, which I am then eating, uh
, which is basically how I.
you know, that's something Iwell, when I get stressed or
something, i'm definitely astress eater Um, it's often
(13:02):
carbohydrate based.
Uh, unfortunately, um, i wouldsay, uh, i don't know how, like
in New York in particular, uh,big hot, soft pretzels are, um,
a thing, uh, and I would saythat would be a great comfort
food salty and full of carbs andreally not good for you, and
warm and all those things.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Isn't that awful that we live in a world where we
have to be, you know, kind of umbombarded by you know?
carbs are bad, carb, very, verybad.
And now I'm bad because I lovecarbs.
Well, i'm supposed to lovecarbs.
Carbs are built for me to lovethem.
Okay, it's like saying not, youknow, someone's going to come
on and say air is bad.
We really have to figure out away to not have air because it's
(13:46):
just well.
Right, exactly, i don't get itsometimes.
But all right, jack, well,we've learned some more.
Someday somebody's going tohave to ask me some of my
favorites.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Cause I feel like let me ask you that What's your
favorite?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
comfort food, oh boy, uh, you know what's I?
I would mimic whatever's infront of me, but I think pizza,
honestly, uh, pizza, and it hasto be a.
I'm still finding the.
I feel like I'm Don Coyote,searching for the perfect, you
know pizza and having quite.
I have the recollections ofpizza.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, I'll give you a clue It's.
it's somewhere in New York.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I'm sure So well, there was a place that was in
Milwaukee where I grew up and,uh, the guy that had it was, uh,
francesca's, and he was fromNew York and had moved into, uh,
milwaukee and had this littlehole in the wall pizza parlor.
Yeah, oh, it was fantasticstuff, and I have yet to find
quite that pizza again.
(14:46):
He went out of business yearsago and you know, it's just so
I'm going to have to just keepshopping.
But, yeah, pizza, green olives,if they're involved, would be
great, some sausage and you knowwhatever, but uh, thin crust
crunchy.
Thank you very much.
So so let's look at this wholething called theater.
Um, you had a point in yourtalking points that live theater
(15:10):
is not dead, it just needsreimagining.
And I kind of, you know, i I'velooked at that and there was a
part of me that was somewhatoffended because and not because
you said it it because peoplesay that you know, you hear that
sort of thing Ah, live theater.
And I, honestly, maybe I'msuper duper stupid, but
(15:30):
sometimes I look at the worldaround us right now and I think
the thing that's missing is morepeople need to see more live
theater, because the stuffthat's going on.
You know, some of the crapthat's being, you know done to
objectify other eyes, otherpeople in our lives, is so
exacerbated by this kind of, youknow, digital world where we
(15:54):
can just say whatever we want towhoever we want.
But live theater.
You're right there in the midstof it and it can be funny, it
can be dramatic, but being rightthere in the midst of it is
life changing.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yes, I, i couldn't agree more, i.
The problem is that theater is,you know I sense I may have
said this last time it feelslike it's always on the verge.
You know, everyone's alwaysbasically writing.
It's a bituary, um, andcertainly throughout my lifetime
, you know, it's hard to keepcompete with movies and
television and in a sense itdoes, but in a sense it doesn't.
(16:26):
It's a very different animalbecause, like you said, being
there in a live theater issomething very unusual and
incredibly.
Um, i think, um, it really sortof confers a sense of community,
uh, and creates a sense ofcommunity, uh, the people there,
um, i just think most peopledon't have a sense of.
(16:49):
Most people have never been toa play, you know, in America,
maybe a school play, uh, orsomething like that, and they've
never been to a professionalplay.
And if they have, nine out of10 of them will have seen a
musical, which, again, musicalsare wonderful I'm not knocking
them, but they're not but like aplay like it, death of a
salesman or offenses by AugustWilson, or, um, you know, you
(17:10):
name it, and even one of manyother plays that are very
entertaining but also reallyvery moving.
Most people haven't seen them.
They've, maybe they've read acouple of them in high school,
but that's that, ain't seeingthem.
Uh and so, and there'ssomething a really sort of and I
hate to use a hokey word likemagical, but something certainly
very potent about being in atheater because, unlike, say, uh
(17:31):
, watching a movie, it becomes,you know, i may have said this
before, but very much dialoguebetween the audience and the cat
and the actors on the stage.
Yeah And um, the event, thetext is the same every night,
hopefully, but the but the playis a little bit different every
night depending on um a hundreddifferent factors.
Yeah, and it's, and in only you, the people who are there in
(17:51):
that moment, can fully rememberand appreciate it that way.
So I I agree, i mean, i thinkwe should have theaters all over
the place and people should goto see them and not view it as
sort of like you know takingyour, you know eating your
vegetables, either you know it'sgot it has.
I think theater, like any art orentertainment, um, its primary
obligation is to entertain andum, but I think in theater and
(18:16):
plays there's maybe more roomfor um in-depth, uh,
explorations and discussionsabout, about topics worthy of
that.
I mean, there's, there's lotsof stuff on TV and there are
movies that have done that aswell, but I mean that's uh, and
there are many, many, many playsthat don't do that.
I don't attempt to do that Andthat's fine too, but I think it
(18:36):
adds a unique way of uhinteracting and builds us into
community that television moviescan't.
And I do think one of thethings that keep coming back to
in my, in my view of the worldis that will be really lack more
than ever as a sense ofcommunity and um can
interconnectedness with oneanother, and I think there are
(18:56):
very few things better thantheater at showing us that we
are all interconnected.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Well, yeah, that understanding that the uh, the
things that these two charactersin front of us are dealing with
, uh, the issues that you knowinvolve their baggage that
they're bringing into theequation as well, as involves
the situation that they're inright at the moment, that we can
usually have some sort of ahamoment where it's like, yeah,
(19:21):
yeah, i've struggled with thattoo.
And when you're seeing a realperson doing it right there in
front of you, um, and there issomething about the, the
professional competency that youknow a reputable, you know a
professional theater has incrafting, that, that, yeah, is
very different than a highschool play, and I, i mean, i've
(19:43):
directed scads of high schoolplays.
I love working at community andyou know the school levels
because you're you're gettingthe start right, but that
there's a very different thinghappening there than there is
happening when you're in.
you know a repertory theatercompany, apt, in our area, you
know, and watching that.
So and I, I, i just I wishthere was a a easier way to do
(20:08):
that on a wide scale, like thatthere would be theater pods in
every community that would have,you know, well-trained well,
you know technicallywell-trained as well as
artistically informed souls thatcould, you know, lead the band
if you will.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Right.
Well, i mean, that's the thingtoo.
I mean, because there's so many, so many, um, most countries
have, you know, nationaltheaters, so to speak, and of
course America doesn't.
And, um, you know, we don'thave national healthcare, you
know, you know, or we do, butit's, it's obviously very
limited compared to othercountries.
(20:45):
So I mean, there's somethingabout our culture that is sort
of demonized the notion ofcommunal events and and and and
communal responsibility asdictated to, as, as more
conservative thinkers would see,it is dictated to by the
government, um, but without itbecoming political.
(21:08):
I would love it if we, if wefunded some sort of national
theater, which may have a centerin Washington or Chicago, new
York, but also would have lotsof satellite theaters throughout
the country, um, particularlyin places that wouldn't normally
, um, you know, allow for peopleto see professional theater,
which is kind of, in a way, whatnew, normal rep, my theater
(21:29):
company, is trying to do.
Obviously, we're just talkingabout the uniqueness of theater,
and there are things that we,that virtual theater, simply
can't do, um, in terms of thatcommunal experience.
But it It does.
We do focus on plays andtheatrical works, and the nature
of the writing of a play isdifferent than, say, that of a
(21:50):
TV show or a movie, and I'm notsaying one is better than the
other, but I think in what sortof the richness you describe of
the dilemmas faced by thecharacters and that sort of
thing, that sort of really lendsitself to plays.
We have that in there and soit's a way of sort of through
(22:11):
our company.
As long as you have onlineaccess, basically, you can see
some plays or, in the case ofour latest work, you can listen
to, and if you can listen to apodcast and clearly you can
because you're listening to thisyou can listen to our plays.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Sure.
So what do you think?
Is there a road to that?
Is there a road to a nationaltheater company that?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I mean, i think it's so far down on the list of
things, i mean, that Washingtonhas to wrestle with at the
moment.
I think that there's probablynot an appetite for it
nationally in the powers that be.
I sort of wish that there were,i don't think.
I mean, i think there's afeeling that these sorts of
(22:57):
things are not necessarily bad,they're nice, but they're sort
of their luxuries, theirindulgences.
And where I would disagree is Iwould say that I don't think
art is a luxury.
I think it is a basic,necessary thing to have in order
for a culture in a society tofunction correctly.
(23:19):
I'm not saying it's moreimportant than or as important,
even than, say, access to healthcare or good schools, obviously
, but the arts in general are, ithink, fully essential for a
society to reach its potentialand for people in communities to
reach the potential.
I'm just going to preach youhere, but this is what I think,
and so I think they're notluxuries and they should be
(23:42):
treated as such.
You know, in the 30s I guessunder Roosevelt, in the New Deal
, there was national theaters,and you know exactly what we
were talking about where theywould take professional actors
and the directors and they wouldput them on the road and they'd
go throughout the country intoplaces where they didn't have
any access to theater, and itwould be wonderful if we could
(24:04):
get back to that again.
But you know the, i think,unfortunately.
I think there are ways in that.
I mean, i think what's you knowwhat they call the overton
window, which is where I guessit's what's considered like the
acceptable range of politicallyviable beliefs are, you know, is
shifted so far to the rightover the last 40 years that I
don't, i think we're a long waysfrom getting that back into the
(24:27):
discussion.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I think of like the.
Was it the CCC that FDR startedto kind of get jumpstart the
economy way back in the 30s andmy dad was part of one of those,
a Civilian Conservation Corps,if I remember right.
Yeah, my background.
Wouldn't it be nice if therewas that sort of thing for
theater?
you know that were yeah live,live events like that, that you
(24:51):
had people going around withdifferent projects that could be
done to light the fire.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
That's the thing, and you know, and of course
Roseville had that as part ofthe new deal.
But you know, my, my ex-wife,is a speech pathologist and she
hasn't had and by she I mean her, she and her colleagues in New
York State, the state, the ratethe New York State Pays Speech
(25:17):
Pathologists hasn't gone upsince I want to say 1997 or
something like that.
I mean, like it doesn't.
I'm not talking about gone upcompared to cost of living
adjustments.
There's been no cost of living,so in essence, they're making
far less than they used to, andso it's just.
I mean, i mean, this is a wholeother podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
You know that's holy cow, so something that's about
the government saying here right, it was built at theater right.
Well, do you think maybe ourproblem is too that we, we look
to the government to solvethings that you know?
did the government sponsorescalus?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
you know Euripides, you know, you know maybe it's
well, i mean, to be honest, idon't know.
Maybe no I mean, i don't knowand certainly the traditional.
There's room in the traditionalsort of Edward Berkey and
conservative model ofconservatism for these, for
(26:14):
communities to come together andfor people to, you know,
individual organizations, to doall these things too, and I
would.
I'm not suggesting it all needsto come from government, and I
could see arguments mitigatingagainst that, but I don't also
see it coming necessarily from,in a big way, from private
institutions.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
All right, well, in the minute you do that, you
private thing to you, who'sgoing to regulate the message?
then at that point, you knowthat's.
You know, yeah, i'll give youmoney, but you have to tell a
story.
I like you know, or?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
well, i mean, that's always a problem.
I mean, you know that could bea problem of the government,
theoretically, yeah.
So I mean it's.
I mean, but that's an age oldthing, right?
I mean, we're all someone Iforget who goes in with an
artist's dream.
They dream of money, which iswhich I think I would say well,
who doesn't dream?
but yeah, I mean as artistswe're.
(27:05):
You know it's interesting too,because you go into the arts
very often, because you don'tquote unquote care that much
about money you're not even tomake a lot of money, but you
realize that money is veryuseful at buying things.
And you know, in order tosustain yourself and our economy
and culture, you have to have.
You know, these, these plansand these dreams and these
ideals are great, but you needsome money to feed them.
(27:28):
Yeah, so that's always thestruggle.
It's a struggle for rock too.
At new normal rap.
It's trying to get, you know,grant money and you know the
individual subscriber donationsand stuff like that to keep us,
keep us moving.
And that's that's always thebig issue with.
With the theory, i think, is Imean, i guess there are
(27:50):
exceptions, but nine times in aten that the worries are all
money related.
It's how are we gonna, you know, fund this season?
you know it would be great ifour debates would be well.
What is our season going tolook like?
you know, what plays are wegonna pick?
that's a nice fun debate tohave, but it's nine out of ten
times it's well.
How are we gonna, you know,find the money?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
yeah, money makes the vote go around as cabaret, like
so.
So then the question, comingdown the line here, of talking
points.
I love this talking pointsthing and think, okay, let's go
to this then.
Um, how do you think that thisancient art form called theater
how do you think that it canevolve to keep up with the era
(28:31):
of netflix and chill and what ischill, by the way, is that, uh
well, i mean, apparently netflixand chill is sort of euphemism
for coming over and having uh,uh, you know, having sort of
intimate relations with someone.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
So, as a consequence, i can assure you, i uh, i don't
know, i don't know about itnever seen it um to me that it's
netflix on sleep.
I don't know I know I have anetflix out for me in that way
yet.
Um, but yeah, listen, i think Ithink it can embrace it.
I mean, i think one of thethings like and I don't mean to
(29:05):
keep bringing it back to new,normal rep, but, um, that's only
area of experience from which Ican speak directly is that it's
, you know, theater is moreaccessible than any time in
history.
Everything is more accessiblethan it's ever been, uh, which
obviously is a detriment too,because you're then, now you're,
you're competing againsteverything basically that's ever
(29:28):
been done or recorded, uh, butI think that's the way it can
evolve.
For example, the nationaltheater of great britain,
talking about national arts andarts theaters, uh, they have a
streaming app, which istremendously good, in which you
can watch high quality, uh, uh,video recordings of their plays.
Now, video recordings are plays, traditionally even pretty, all
(29:49):
but unwatchable, um, and you'lllose a lot of that essential
element that we were talkingabout earlier.
But these are updated and, um,the recording techniques are
such that, between the clarityand the different camera angles,
and that it does give you areal flavor of that and, um, i'm
not sure why I'm spending somuch time plugging the national
theater, and they certainlydon't need my help, but I would,
(30:12):
uh, the national theater aliveis a great streaming app, just
one example of the ways in whichtheater is sort of adapting and
it's staying current, not onlytechnologically but in terms of,
like things, that life isreally being lived by people.
I mean, as much as I love deathof a salesman, as much as I
love, uh, you know, fences, andI think these plays are timeless
(30:32):
and should be performed.
Um, equally urgently, if notmore so, we need new voices, new
playwrights talking aboutthings that are not, um, you
know highfalutin, and I thinksome people think of the theater
, as you know, like Euripides orShakespeare or things like that
, where people are in togas ortights or or toga tights, which
may be a thing um, and you know,sort of declining these
(30:55):
speeches in a very sort of,let's face it, boring and not
very, very human way.
Um, and I think plays need to beabout recognizable people and
recognizable circumstances anduh, in, so we need more of those
and more ways of transmittingit, and I think, you know new,
(31:15):
normal wreck is doing our part,i think, and hoping that people
will enjoy what we've put outthere.
But yeah, it's.
It can't just be the classics.
I think there's a place for theclassics and I think you know
there's a that's important, um,but Yeah, actually it has to be
work that really says oh my gosh, i so relate to this.
(31:36):
This is exactly like my life,and I don't see this being
talked about on TV or in themovies.
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
So we've talked about previously, i think as well, in
our discussion, but let's talkabout NNR, because that is kind
of an answer to that question,right?
The new normal is anorganization that you started
co-founded.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Friends of myself and I started it.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Okay, it started in 2020.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Is that right?
It started in 2020 because itstarted out with a group of
actors and myself gettingtogether via Zoom every week and
just reading plays.
And then, you know, that was atime when a lot of people were
trying to put together videolike readings of plays, but they
were just people reading in,you know, scripts in their
apartments And, while that'sgreat, we thought, well, there's
probably a better way of doingit and a more sophisticated way
(32:25):
of doing it.
And we think in our firstseason we sort of got there.
We had four full-length playsby four different writers, from
a diverse group of writers,dealing with very different
issues, all of which ended up, ithink, being in some level
about community, although I haveto tell you that was sort of
accidental.
We sort of put on four diverseplays of excellent quality And
(32:50):
we feel we achieved that, and weare very excited about the sort
of democratizing nature of it.
Now, like you know, people geta chance to see this who would
normally never get a chance tosee it, and so that for us by no
means is, by no means is NNR anattempt to somehow compete with
(33:12):
live theater.
It's not.
It's in any way, and all of usin NNR.
Many have worked since then intheater And I hope to have plays
of mine produced again intheaters and all these things.
But this to me, is a greatancillary way of providing a
theatrical experience.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Sort of an augmentation from what I've seen
and looking at the Jericho.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I think that's probably a better way Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, so I keep thinking of this phrase of you
know we have a tendency to thinkeither or, but it's another one
of these both and answers Bothand Yeah.
So what have you found to bethe fruits of that doing that
You're in three years in now,roughly right Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, well, the thing that people keep telling us in
terms of the plays that theywatched very much was because
the way we set it up, justaesthetically, they felt they
were like in the scenes in a waythat in the play, in a way that
they have they don't in TV ormovies or even theater, because
(34:19):
the characters are it's directaddress, even when they're
talking to different charactersin the scene, and so you're sort
of very much involved in it andit's very incredibly there's an
intimacy to it which, becauseit's oftentimes I mean you can
watch it on television screensor whatever, but very often
people watch it on computers Andso it's just you and that
person face to face, and sothat's what we've come our way
(34:44):
with.
Is people saying that to us alot, that there's a real
intimacy to it And they feelthat they're very close, if not
in the middle of the action.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Okay, and it's very much kind of like this team's
call that we're doing now, wherethe actors are talking with
each other but they're lookingat the screen, so you're getting
that kind of immersive Right.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yes, exactly, and then.
But there's also a you know,there's green screens behind
them, so we can see is thatbasically they're all in the
same room together And that'sthe way we recorded all the
plays in 2020, in 2021, which isduring the pandemic, obviously,
of course And now we haven'tmounted full production since
then because we're waiting onsome more money, some grant
(35:25):
money, and the audio play thatwe put out on the podcast play,
which is really like anold-fashioned radio play in
terms of like sound effects andsoundscapes that we recorded
together in the same room.
But that was really excitingbecause we know some of us.
Actually, i knew all the peopleindividually, but there are
some people who've been workingtogether for two years and I've
(35:45):
never met in person until thatday.
So that was a lot of fun And sowe recorded it together.
And that's a different branch.
You know, in the UK, radioplays are done all the time,
their plays just performed onradio stations or put out in
podcast form, and in the USthat's starting to make a bit of
a comeback a little bit.
But we wanted to do that And sowe put out a play that is
(36:11):
accessible on any podcastplatform and it's free, and so
that really speaks to our hopeto sort of democratize
theatrical experience.
And again, it's a play, it'snot a skit, it's not a TV show
or something.
It's a play.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Right, right, is there a question of the format
of that You talked about therebeing kind of a green screen
thing?
I noticed with Jericho theversion that Marcia Mason, i
think, worked with at US thatthe backgrounds changed by
(36:48):
virtue of where the people were.
So at one point you know Joshis calling from Israel and he's
got the temples behind him.
So it was a quick and easy wayto establish that there are in
different places.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
But without having to And like, just like any scenery
backdrop would be in a theater,did you find?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
are those done live too, as well as recorded?
I mean, are there times wherepeople are buying a ticket and
coming in and it's being donethen and there?
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Well, we've had play readings, which, again, are very
different And those aren't likethe backgrounds and green
screens.
Those are sort of like themeetings, like we're having now,
where the actors would be intheir apartments and they would
read.
And we had several of those.
We helped have more of thosefor works that are in
development And people can comein and see, you know, and watch
(37:38):
a live performance of it Andthere's usually a talk back
afterwards and a question andanswer And it's really
invaluable.
For it's really invaluable forwhat was I going to say?
for audiences and playwrightstoo, the players, to hear these
words out loud is verybeneficial.
I know, as a playwright, i haveto hear it out loud before I go
(38:01):
anywhere.
We have to try and hone it andmake it better.
So we view that as sort ofbeneficial for everyone.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So I'm going to probe you more on Jericho, just
because that play that really Idon't know.
I don't know because I wasidentifying with the lead
characters too much, or what wasgoing on, but the
dysfunctionality of the familywas hilarious at one level, but
(38:31):
also extremely poignant.
You know, mom's trying tofigure things out, trying to do
what she can do for her sons,trying to help them, only to be
met with, you know, completerejection and a way that she
does, can begin to understand.
You know, the two people aretrying to find relationships
that, you know, one case wasonce and now is gone.
(38:51):
Or, you know, is it going to besomething, is it not?
And it's just a reallywonderful cradle of the human
condition.
So then, on top of it, you havethis you know, i don't know
what, is it fair to call it aconceit?
or the husband that's there,the conscience that's speaking
(39:12):
to her throughout it And is, youknow, i have to accept that
that's her interpretation of him.
But there's also a part of youthat's like well, maybe there is
a spiritual component therewhere he is still involved.
Who knows?
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Yeah, i mean.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
I try and leave that as loosey-goosey as possible.
So when you wrote that, itstruck me that it was partially
a play about 9-11 and what ithad done to us nationally,
internationally, and I'mpersonally you know, and you
have kind of a core.
we're just, we're blowing theplay.
(39:47):
You're going to have to readthe play and not describe it
anywhere near as well as it'swritten, but it seems like the
core.
for me, the core argument wascoming to grips with either
moving past it or not movingpast it and what moving past it
looked like for the differentcharacters, and who I can't
(40:08):
remember was Beth, the maincharacter, who has a line of the
effect of.
There are some things we shouldjust never get over.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah, there are some things you shouldn't be able to
recover from.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
So and yeah, yeah, she's trying to and yet
fundamentally it's like she, shefeels that she can't, she's not
going to, and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Yeah, it's funny you mentioned this clearly a play
about 9-11, and the funny thingis that I kept saying, as i was
writing it and showing it topeople like this is really not
nine eleven.
Nine eleven is just sort of theCommonality in the backdrop and
i was really adamant about it'snot about nine eleven, because
i felt like i wrote this forseveral years ago is not like
(40:51):
late.
Yeah, two thousand eight ish,two thousand nine ish time and i
think it started before thenand so i felt well, there's no
real.
I don't want to say that nineeleven.
You know i don't want to beinterpreted.
Is that, finally, a friend ofmine ever been directed original
production of it?
you know, it is kind of nineeleven jack, and it's okay to,
(41:13):
it's okay to them, and i thinkthat's what i was very reticent
to clean.
That, because it implied withthat perhaps might be The idea
that i really have something tosay about this.
A horrific event, and i don't,per se, have anything to say
about it, certainly not nosociopolitical level, but it's
(41:36):
just about people dealing,coping with tragedy in their
lives and A in burdens, internaland external, that they don't
know how to process or how toshare it or where to put it, and
i think in that sense it's Yeah, and some of them are via nine
(41:56):
eleven, some of them are not.
But that's not a nine elevenplay.
That's really about peopletrying to figure out What to do
with the imperfection of theirfeelings and attitudes and how
to reconcile what they want tobe with who they really are.
And you know, these people areall striving to for connections
(42:18):
and the connections are rightthere in front of them and they
have them sort of, but theycan't quite Make them stick the
way they like them to and theydon't fit perfectly, and i think
that's probably something mostpeople can relate to what's i
mean?
Speaker 2 (42:34):
it strikes me that It is a nine eleven play, but it's
not.
It's not a nine eleven play inthat it seeks to be a nine
eleven play.
It's that nine eleven is thecrucible That it is your
bringing to a head, if you will.
All of these different things.
I mean beth has her demons thatshe has to deal with, and you
(42:55):
know, one of the I honestlythought one of the wonderful tie
ins was she's dealing with didher husband is here, husband, i
guess?
i'm unclear.
Did her husband died because hewas helping other people?
did he get pushed by?
did he get, you know, pushedover so that he couldn't get out
, where other people did and shewas wrestling with you know the
(43:16):
anger that she would feeltowards knowing that that
happened.
Or, you know, was she whatever?
you know all the differentpossibilities.
And then here you have is it?
Is it josh the older, the olderbrother?
yeah, okay, who?
who admits that he probably diddo that, you know, to someone
as he was trying to get out?
so it's like, okay, now you're.
(43:39):
You're the person i've beenSpending all this time despising
and now i put a face to it.
Right, that, to me, is just athing that happens all the time
again speaks back to our.
One of our myriad of problemsis a country right now is we're
other rising people in sayingthat they're awful people for
doing this and that and theother thing, and it's like, well
(43:59):
, no, but in the rightcircumstances, just about
anybody can do This or that orthe other thing.
So what's your point?
Speaker 3 (44:07):
so yeah, yeah, that where people are all i mean.
you know we're a lot more likeme what we would like to admit.
i think, yeah times, and Wedon't know, we've all done
things on some level i thinkthat we are not proud of, and
(44:29):
Maybe it's just me, yeah i'mthere with you, yeah, i know,
and there are things that youknow, we wish we could take back
desperately, and we can't.
And Having to live with thattruth, which is hardly, you know
, a new revelation about thehuman condition, but it's one of
(44:49):
the things that everyGeneration of people that grows
up, i mean as we become adultsand experience life, it is a new
revelation for us every singletime that there are things that
we're gonna do, that we've done,that we're gonna really regret,
some of which Might change ourlives, the lives of others,
forever, and you have to livewith that.
You have to go on, and sometimesthings happen to you that are
(45:12):
completely unfair and yourmisrepresented, or you're just
the Victim of chance, in whichcase, in case of these
characters, nine, eleven, and itasks unfair things of you, and
it demands unfair things of youand it puts unfair burdens on
you, but you have to find a wayto move on.
I think i guess that's whatthis place about which i think,
(45:34):
one of the reasons why i reallywant to make it funny, because
otherwise it becomes a littleburdensome yeah, yeah, it seems
like you kind of walk that linebetween being didactic you know,
wanting to be instructional inthe yeah burden some versus
enlightening.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
You know that that is a Profoundly difficult line to
walk as far as i'm concernedyeah, i mean, i, i do honestly
feel that this is not falsemonocle.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
I do honestly feel like nothing to teach people
like i never i never go into aplay What the thinking of well,
this is.
This is an answer i want toprovide to be so.
It's always a question i wantto ask and then, you know,
explore these Situations.
You know what.
What.
What would i do or how would ireact and what would i be
judgmental?
and if i were judgmental, whatmitigating factors are my not
(46:29):
taking into consideration?
you know, blah, blah, blah.
So i like to sort of raise thestakes and put it into a
crucible, as you say, and seehow people behave and not try
and try, never do it with realjudgment either.
I think there are moments inthe play where every single
person behave poorly, buthopefully, hopefully, if i've
(46:50):
done my job right, because theactors were wonderful and
marsham mason was a brilliantdirector That you think, why
understand why they did.
I may not necessarily love it,but i totally get it for human
thing to do right and i thinkthat, you know, and that is the
same sort of principles are verydifferent, very different story
, but the, you know, the radioplace, step nine, we have out on
(47:11):
the podcast platforms for freeminutes, that sort of Same
jumping off point in terms of,like you know, there's a real
moral dilemma, real cruciblepeople are placed in and let's
see how they react, and Evenpeople who love each other, you
know, not being able to quitegrasp each other and ending up
hurting each other.
That meeting to that kind ofthing.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
but again, hopefully also funny, because otherwise
Yeah, it's gotta be some fun toit, because there is fun, right,
there's any way to kind of stepback a little bit and go.
Okay, do you know, i think oneof the things that's fascinating
to me is the concept of allthese characters, that initially
different characters you lookat and go.
(47:53):
I have kind of a Jerk.
But i found, you know the.
It struck me that there's avery even handed treatment of
your characters, that, as yousaid, at some point you get to
the point where, like, okay, nowi get why they're that way.
Alright, i can cut him someslack now.
So do you find that you, you'regoing through that process, or
is that always your intent?
(48:14):
that, as you're writing thatyou're you, you you have you
believe that there's a reasonfor all these people to be the
way they are and you're, you'rejust gonna let them be who they
are.
Let that take it world where itwill yeah, i mean i?
Speaker 3 (48:27):
i think the answer is a little bit of both.
I mean i.
Yes, i try to let thecharacters dictate what happens,
but if i'm doing my job right,i, they are being human beings.
By definition.
That means they're doing thingsthat are less than perfect,
sometimes unless i'm in our caneven be infuriating or upsetting
, but they have reasons,everyone has reasons.
That doesn't dismiss, thatdoesn't absolve them of any of
(48:49):
consequences, but i wanted to, iwant very much to Not have
anyone sort of be cartoonish lee, you know, static and like
cardboard, like in terms oftheir obvious, like a straw man,
so to speak of of all.
This person is wrong, and thenthe wrong in their thing.
(49:09):
This person is right in theirthinking and there's gotta be a,
there has to obviously be amiddle ground is in line and, of
course, and tying it back tothe real world, i think the
biggest danger these days thatwere also siloed, so to speak,
and like our viewpoints and usethe word other, yet other, the
other is the other is That'sgoing on more, far more even
than it was happening when iwrote the play, and it's really
(49:33):
important to note that thesepeople on the left or right.
You feel are no longerincorrect.
About sale, i disagree with therate.
They want to Put a margin taxeson our disagreeing capital
gains tax.
You feel now these people areare evil or you know.
Either way, they're there, areout to destroy america with
(49:53):
their, with their ugly woke isand or with their fascist to
tower, and both things can betrue.
They both can hold thesebeliefs.
But also, when you know themindividually, you think i will
be human beings and they havedecent, you know they've decent
impulses And that's, i think,one of the great quandary that
we face is how to be able todisagree politically but also
(50:17):
see the kind of commonality inone of the and so i think that's
one of the things that i thinki try to do and my place and i
just think, i think all goodwriters doing that and try to do
in their plays.
You know, i had a play i playedcalled fellow travelers, which
is about which we talked aboutlast time, about elia kazan and
arthur miller, and we've beenvery easy demonize elia kazan
and one of my challenges is oneminute.
(50:38):
I'm gonna try not to judge him.
You know, i know the audiencewas to judge him.
That's absolutely.
They're right, but i, my job isnot to make a saint out of
miller or a demon out of kazanand show you, just tell the
story as if they were people,because it turns out they
weren't.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Yeah, we all have demons, so jack i, i.
I try to be respectful of thetime and respectful of the fact
that you have a dog that needsyour tlc, so So we can keep
talking.
I hope again will just yeah, ihope so.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Let's face it i'm not doing much, so i'm always
around.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
While you didn't have a critical house emergency this
week.
That's good so.
But this can be one of thosethings we check in with one
another and just say, okay,what's what's, what's the play
going on today?
Because it what's the oldshakespearian thing all the
world is a stage and we are butplayers in it yeah, yeah it's
right, it's a and it if it i'm.
(51:37):
I'm still not quite sure if it'sa comedy or drama or just a
farce.
I'm not sure what.
What version we're in right nowas a country care to point to a
lavery.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
There's that.
There's a famous line of thehistory, i think i forget the
order, it's a, but i thinkthere's one line of the history
plays out first is tragedy andthen is force, and sometimes i
think the opposite is also.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Very much so, jack, thanks so much, appreciate your
time, appreciate your, so pleasetake care of yourself until we
meet again.
Yes, please, you know.
Thanks for listening to usfolks here on frame of reference
profiles in leadership.
Welcome to Frame of Reference.
Informed, intelligentconversations about the issues
and challenges facing everyonein today's world.
In-depth interviews to help youexpand and inform your Frame of
Reference.
Now here's your host, raulLabresch.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Well, welcome everyone to another edition of
Frame of Reference Profiles andLeadership, and today it's my
distinct honor, pleasure andjust plain old good time to be
able to talk with a gentlemanthat I spent some time.
I believe it was like earlywinter-ish or mid-winter-ish
cold days back in February,january and my guest today, jack
(00:44):
Kanfor, and I got to talk toeach other on this podcast And I
had one of those kindred spiritkind of moments, and I'm not
trying to put you on the spot, ididn't have a kindred moment.
Think of it like a date thatwent, you know one person thinks
just wonderful.
The other person thinks it'slike, yeah, so fun Just to talk
(01:04):
with somebody that's in the bizin general too, in theater as an
art was just such a joy in somany ways.
So Jack agreed to come back andtalk with me.
I am speaking with none otherthan John Lawrence, jack
Kanforah.
So I saw that today.
It still looked to me, jack.
When I saw that, john Lawrence,i imagined your mom going, john
Lawrence, and you would know.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's.
I'm named after my dad,obviously, and so they didn't
want to have two people the samename in the house, because you
know it would be difficult totell which one she was yelling
at at any given moment.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
And you don't need to take the other one's stuff.
That's just not.
Yeah, i get it.
Yeah So, but yeah so?
Jack is an award-winningAmerican playwright.
He's an actor, he's a musicianand a teacher.
Received his dramatic trainingat the London Academy of Music
and Dramatic Art.
Beanna's career is an actor inregional theater, working mostly
in Shakespearean roles, thingslike Mercutio and Macbeth.
(02:07):
Those are small parts, aren'tthey?
if I remember right.
Yeah, yeah, very few line alittle Matt, a little Matt.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Well, very few lines.
you know, I ended up cutting alot, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, it's just like I forgot that scene.
Let's just skip that tonight.
So he's been hailed hailed, isay, by the associate press as
white hot entertainment for hisoff-Broadway plays, including
poetic license play setting andJericho, and as a New York Times
critic's pick.
So that America is why Jack andI are talking today, because
(02:39):
Jack is important and I am notSo, but and you need to all know
more about him, but as a personwho is steeped in theater, i
have lots of places my heartwants to go in talking with Jack
every time I talk to him.
So, jack, thank you, thank youso much.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
No, it's a pleasure to be back.
Had a great time and lookingforward to today, So so, jack, i
sense we talked last time.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I remember we always start out with the my favorite
things part of the podcast, so Ithought I kind of was trying to
run through where some newfavorite things I could do with
you to really stump you.
So this is a stump the Jacktime.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Okay, so Jack, what is your favorite play?
Speaker 3 (03:27):
That's mean.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
So I'm going to, i'm going to say I'm going to put
them in two categories.
I'm going to say, likeShakespeare and then other place
, okay, and I would have to say,is cliche, this is is.
It is probably my favoriteShakespeare plays Hamlet, and in
the non Shakespeare category, imight have to go with against a
(03:55):
cliche but I might have to gowith death of a salesman.
I'm also a huge fan ofespecially the first part of
angels in America, but TonyKushner, but yeah, i wish I had
something more imaginative.
But yeah, we'll go with those.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Well, you know, but isn't that the thing with
favorite plays, favorite music,favorite artists, whatever?
It's all.
To me it's all about kind ofwhere we are at any given point.
To you, know, my who's someoneI was talking not too long ago
said their favorite book is theone they're reading right now.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
You know, yeah that's so true, And it's a question to
have, like what you know, sortof sort of a sort of a thing
test worth the first thing thatcomes to your mind.
And so right now, this morning,those are my, those are my
answers.
Another time I might very wellsay, you know, long-gauge dream
tonight.
Or you know, for example, Ithink August on such County like
(04:56):
Tracy Letts is among myfavorite plays, And one of the
best American plays of thiscentury certainly is a play by
Lucas Nath called The Christians, which I which is just eats me
up with envy every time I readit, because I wish I'd written
it.
And there are lots of you know,and there's no land, a great
place, but yeah, those are thefirst ones to pop into my head.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So what is your favorite thing about?
what a favorite play has I mean, are there elements there that
you, that you go?
oh, I'm going to like readingthis from almost the first
moment you start reading it.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Well, it's a really good question.
I don't know that I have oneset of criteria for, for example
, i love, for example, i lovethat Edward Albee plays as well.
Who's afraid of Virginia Woolfis such a remarkable play.
One of the things I love aboutit is it's sense of humor And so
.
But, for example, death of aSalesman has actually one or two
humorous moments in it, butit's really not funny in any way
(05:53):
.
Miller's not known for his joke.
So there are a couple of andthey're actually two jokes I can
think of in Death of a Salesmanthat both land.
But it's not a funny play, it'sa given away in the title, and
so it's just like you'reabsorbed in the characters world
And there's 100 different waysto get to that and playwrights
(06:14):
do it differently, like, forexample I'm using these sort of
old, old sort of classics asexamples.
I mean, longest journey intonight is to me absorbing
hypnotically.
So from the first page thedialogue isn't really very good,
but it's the characters and theway they you know O'Neill
(06:34):
builds their world and theirpsychology is so rich and so
thorough and so immediately realand accessible that you
absolutely bind to thesepeople's worlds.
So, you know, fence is byAugust Wilson really has a
little bit of everything.
It's got some humor, it's gotsome beautiful poetry, it's got
a compelling character.
(06:55):
I mean August Wilson sort ofyou know, is.
You know we're talking aboutbaseball players and the
character in Fence was abaseball player.
August Wilson was a five toolplaywright.
You know he could, you know hecould do it all, and so it
varies.
Like Miller isn't great onhumor but he brings so much, so
many other things to the table.
So you know it.
(07:18):
Just.
I wish I could give you a clearanswer on that.
Tony Kushner in Angels inAmerica deals with incredibly
serious, heartbreaking, sweepingand important topics, but does
so with great wit and also somegreat poetry.
I think if I had to narrow itdown to one thing would be that
I have to be sort ofpsychologically engaged and like
(07:41):
believe that these are realpeople dealing with stressful
things and there's a hundredways of portraying and doing it,
but I guess that probably isone common denominator, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, i don't know if it's something about getting
older.
You know, as we record this,i'm coming up on 63 years And
it's the.
It's the point where you know,i'd like, like Picard says in
one of the Star Trek movies,i've begun to realize that there
are fewer days ahead of me thanthere are behind me.
So but that kind of resonateswith me, the, the plays that
(08:10):
I've read lately, and I thinkhonestly, to a large extent the
plays that I read of yours justrecently, that where you have
that moment of just going, thisis an important thing, that
these people are dealing with.
These, these words that arebeing said here by this
character, in this context, havea much greater, much deeper
(08:31):
issue at the root of them thatwe all need to talk about.
And the play provides thecocoon, i guess, if you will,
where that can get talked about.
And I'm looking more and moreand more and more.
It's honestly, i like playsthat make me laugh.
I love the line in Jerichoabout.
You know, i it's not that Ialways had my shit together, but
at least it was within walkingdistance, you know it's, but so
(08:53):
those things can make.
That should be a classic.
Everyone should be saying thaton the streets regularly.
But your, i guess I will lookmore and more for a play that
just makes me stop and thinkmore, and maybe that's a
reflection of the world we livein, where there's so little of
that.
You know, it's like, it's likewe're almost being, you know,
(09:14):
pushed into not thinking ever,because if we, if we take a
second to look at the man behindthe curtain, we'll go Oh my God
, this isn't anything.
I thought it was right,actively discouraged.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Yeah, that's true, that's true.
As a man I'm friendly with, iwouldn't be so presumptuous to
say he's a friend of mine.
But he's the very well knownstand up comic named Gary
Goldman and he's had a bunch ofspecials on the HBO and and
Netflix and he is doing a setrecently in which he he's about
(09:46):
my age and said he hasn't doneany plastic surgery and he's
talking about his worry linesort of in between the eyebrows
and he says he doesn't trustanyone.
His age doesn't have those,because if you're not looking at
the world constantly and sortof making that scrunched up in
his face of incredulity, hecan't trust you.
And so I think that areprobably true.
(10:08):
And most of the world does sortof conspire, wittingly or
unwittingly, to sort of distractyou.
And one of the things I thinkplays do really well is they
like a good novel to.
The plays will sort of demandyou know, most a lot of the
great ones will demand you'dspend time dealing with
something very serious, andthat's not to say it's not that
(10:33):
great humor and entertainmentand it's hopefully never preachy
, but yeah, so it's sort of it'sa.
It allows you more time to diginto these issues, but again, it
has to be done in theentertaining way.
What's your favorite hobby?
Um, i love to play guitar.
Uh, i, i, i would take guitaroff top of my head, blind guitar
(10:56):
and singing, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
So do you write your own stuff or just do covers?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I used to a lot of when I was younger.
I wanted to be a song writerand um, it's uh, but I, you know
, and I sorry and I wrote somesongs and when I was younger,
but I, i drifted away from thatbecause, um, well, for
confluence of reasons most Ithink mostly that like a 20 or
21, i thought, well, i'm not, idon't, i don't think I'm a,
really I think I could be anokay songwriter.
(11:20):
I don't think I'll be a reallygreat songwriter.
And so, um, and in fact, inthis, the play that my new
normal rep has online for free,um, it's not a musical at all,
but there's music in betweenscenes and stuff like that, and
I wrote that with my friend, robKoenig.
Um, and it's nothing you knowto say, i wrote that music even
(11:40):
sounds a little bit a pompousfor what it is.
You know we came up with thetunes, but, um, yeah, so I still
do that a lot, so that's fun.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Okay, How about let's ?
let's do something reallyarcane, bizarre.
How about your favorite pieceof furniture?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Well, i mean just like theoretically or like that,
i've that, i own or have beenin, um I there is a um, i have a
second hand, um leather chair,um on a swivel um, and it's
really uh hard to sit in andread because you fall asleep, or
(12:19):
I fall asleep very quickly uh,when I do that, uh, and that's
so I guess I would say that one,yeah, very, extremely
comfortable.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
How can you not like a chair that does that for you?
That's, uh, there's comfortfood and there's comfort
furniture, right?
So, so, which brings me to mylast question what would be your
favorite comfort food to havein your comfort furniture?
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Whatever, whatever whatever's in front of me.
Um, i do.
um, i think I tweeted recently,like I think I said, you know,
i'm currently binge watchingfood, which I am then eating, uh
, which is basically how I.
you know, that's something Iwell, when I get stressed or
something, i'm definitely astress eater Um, it's often
(13:02):
carbohydrate based.
Uh, unfortunately, um, i wouldsay, uh, i don't know how, like
in New York in particular, uh,big hot, soft pretzels are, um,
a thing, uh, and I would saythat would be a great comfort
food salty and full of carbs andreally not good for you, and
warm and all those things.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Isn't that awful that we live in a world where we
have to be, you know, kind of umbombarded by you know?
carbs are bad, carb, very, verybad.
And now I'm bad because I lovecarbs.
Well, i'm supposed to lovecarbs.
Carbs are built for me to lovethem.
Okay, it's like saying not, youknow, someone's going to come
on and say air is bad.
We really have to figure out away to not have air because it's
(13:46):
just well.
Right, exactly, i don't get itsometimes.
But all right, jack, well,we've learned some more.
Someday somebody's going tohave to ask me some of my
favorites.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Cause I feel like let me ask you that What's your
favorite?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
comfort food, oh boy, uh, you know what's I?
I would mimic whatever's infront of me, but I think pizza,
honestly, uh, pizza, and it hasto be a.
I'm still finding the.
I feel like I'm Don Coyote,searching for the perfect, you
know pizza and having quite.
I have the recollections ofpizza.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, I'll give you a clue It's.
it's somewhere in New York.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
I'm sure So well, there was a place that was in
Milwaukee where I grew up and,uh, the guy that had it was, uh,
francesca's, and he was fromNew York and had moved into, uh,
milwaukee and had this littlehole in the wall pizza parlor.
Yeah, oh, it was fantasticstuff, and I have yet to find
quite that pizza again.
(14:46):
He went out of business yearsago and you know, it's just so
I'm going to have to just keepshopping.
But, yeah, pizza, green olives,if they're involved, would be
great, some sausage and you knowwhatever, but uh, thin crust
crunchy.
Thank you very much.
So so let's look at this wholething called theater.
Um, you had a point in yourtalking points that live theater
(15:10):
is not dead, it just needsreimagining.
And I kind of, you know, i I'velooked at that and there was a
part of me that was somewhatoffended because and not because
you said it it because peoplesay that you know, you hear that
sort of thing Ah, live theater.
And I, honestly, maybe I'msuper duper stupid, but
(15:30):
sometimes I look at the worldaround us right now and I think
the thing that's missing is morepeople need to see more live
theater, because the stuffthat's going on.
You know, some of the crapthat's being, you know done to
objectify other eyes, otherpeople in our lives, is so
exacerbated by this kind of, youknow, digital world where we
(15:54):
can just say whatever we want towhoever we want.
But live theater.
You're right there in the midstof it and it can be funny, it
can be dramatic, but being rightthere in the midst of it is
life changing.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yes, I, i couldn't agree more, i.
The problem is that theater is,you know I sense I may have
said this last time it feelslike it's always on the verge.
You know, everyone's alwaysbasically writing.
It's a bituary, um, andcertainly throughout my lifetime
, you know, it's hard to keepcompete with movies and
television and in a sense itdoes, but in a sense it doesn't.
(16:26):
It's a very different animalbecause, like you said, being
there in a live theater issomething very unusual and
incredibly.
Um, i think, um, it really sortof confers a sense of community,
uh, and creates a sense ofcommunity, uh, the people there,
um, i just think most peopledon't have a sense of.
(16:49):
Most people have never been toa play, you know, in America,
maybe a school play, uh, orsomething like that, and they've
never been to a professionalplay.
And if they have, nine out of10 of them will have seen a
musical, which, again, musicalsare wonderful I'm not knocking
them, but they're not but like aplay like it, death of a
salesman or offenses by AugustWilson, or, um, you know, you
(17:10):
name it, and even one of manyother plays that are very
entertaining but also reallyvery moving.
Most people haven't seen them.
They've, maybe they've read acouple of them in high school,
but that's that, ain't seeingthem.
Uh and so, and there'ssomething a really sort of and I
hate to use a hokey word likemagical, but something certainly
very potent about being in atheater because, unlike, say, uh
(17:31):
, watching a movie, it becomes,you know, i may have said this
before, but very much dialoguebetween the audience and the cat
and the actors on the stage.
Yeah And um, the event, thetext is the same every night,
hopefully, but the but the playis a little bit different every
night depending on um a hundreddifferent factors.
Yeah, and it's, and in only you, the people who are there in
(17:51):
that moment, can fully rememberand appreciate it that way.
So I I agree, i mean, i thinkwe should have theaters all over
the place and people should goto see them and not view it as
sort of like you know takingyour, you know eating your
vegetables, either you know it'sgot it has.
I think theater, like any art orentertainment, um, its primary
obligation is to entertain andum, but I think in theater and
(18:16):
plays there's maybe more roomfor um in-depth, uh,
explorations and discussionsabout, about topics worthy of
that.
I mean, there's, there's lotsof stuff on TV and there are
movies that have done that aswell, but I mean that's uh, and
there are many, many, many playsthat don't do that.
I don't attempt to do that Andthat's fine too, but I think it
(18:36):
adds a unique way of uhinteracting and builds us into
community that television moviescan't.
And I do think one of thethings that keep coming back to
in my, in my view of the worldis that will be really lack more
than ever as a sense ofcommunity and um can
interconnectedness with oneanother, and I think there are
(18:56):
very few things better thantheater at showing us that we
are all interconnected.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Well, yeah, that understanding that the uh, the
things that these two charactersin front of us are dealing with
, uh, the issues that you knowinvolve their baggage that
they're bringing into theequation as well, as involves
the situation that they're inright at the moment, that we can
usually have some sort of ahamoment where it's like, yeah,
(19:21):
yeah, i've struggled with thattoo.
And when you're seeing a realperson doing it right there in
front of you, um, and there issomething about the, the
professional competency that youknow a reputable, you know a
professional theater has incrafting, that, that, yeah, is
very different than a highschool play, and I, i mean, i've
(19:43):
directed scads of high schoolplays.
I love working at community andyou know the school levels
because you're you're gettingthe start right, but that
there's a very different thinghappening there than there is
happening when you're in.
you know a repertory theatercompany, apt, in our area, you
know, and watching that.
So and I, I, i just I wishthere was a a easier way to do
(20:08):
that on a wide scale, like thatthere would be theater pods in
every community that would have,you know, well-trained well,
you know technicallywell-trained as well as
artistically informed souls thatcould, you know, lead the band
if you will.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Right.
Well, i mean, that's the thingtoo.
I mean, because there's so many, so many, um, most countries
have, you know, nationaltheaters, so to speak, and of
course America doesn't.
And, um, you know, we don'thave national healthcare, you
know, you know, or we do, butit's, it's obviously very
limited compared to othercountries.
(20:45):
So I mean, there's somethingabout our culture that is sort
of demonized the notion ofcommunal events and and and and
communal responsibility asdictated to, as, as more
conservative thinkers would see,it is dictated to by the
government, um, but without itbecoming political.
(21:08):
I would love it if we, if wefunded some sort of national
theater, which may have a centerin Washington or Chicago, new
York, but also would have lotsof satellite theaters throughout
the country, um, particularlyin places that wouldn't normally
, um, you know, allow for peopleto see professional theater,
which is kind of, in a way, whatnew, normal rep, my theater
(21:29):
company, is trying to do.
Obviously, we're just talkingabout the uniqueness of theater,
and there are things that we,that virtual theater, simply
can't do, um, in terms of thatcommunal experience.
But it It does.
We do focus on plays andtheatrical works, and the nature
of the writing of a play isdifferent than, say, that of a
(21:50):
TV show or a movie, and I'm notsaying one is better than the
other, but I think in what sortof the richness you describe of
the dilemmas faced by thecharacters and that sort of
thing, that sort of really lendsitself to plays.
We have that in there and soit's a way of sort of through
(22:11):
our company.
As long as you have onlineaccess, basically, you can see
some plays or, in the case ofour latest work, you can listen
to, and if you can listen to apodcast and clearly you can
because you're listening to thisyou can listen to our plays.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Sure.
So what do you think?
Is there a road to that?
Is there a road to a nationaltheater company that?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I mean, i think it's so far down on the list of
things, i mean, that Washingtonhas to wrestle with at the
moment.
I think that there's probablynot an appetite for it
nationally in the powers that be.
I sort of wish that there were,i don't think.
I mean, i think there's afeeling that these sorts of
(22:57):
things are not necessarily bad,they're nice, but they're sort
of their luxuries, theirindulgences.
And where I would disagree is Iwould say that I don't think
art is a luxury.
I think it is a basic,necessary thing to have in order
for a culture in a society tofunction correctly.
(23:19):
I'm not saying it's moreimportant than or as important,
even than, say, access to healthcare or good schools, obviously
, but the arts in general are, ithink, fully essential for a
society to reach its potentialand for people in communities to
reach the potential.
I'm just going to preach youhere, but this is what I think,
and so I think they're notluxuries and they should be
(23:42):
treated as such.
You know, in the 30s I guessunder Roosevelt, in the New Deal
, there was national theaters,and you know exactly what we
were talking about where theywould take professional actors
and the directors and they wouldput them on the road and they'd
go throughout the country intoplaces where they didn't have
any access to theater, and itwould be wonderful if we could
(24:04):
get back to that again.
But you know the, i think,unfortunately.
I think there are ways in that.
I mean, i think what's you knowwhat they call the overton
window, which is where I guessit's what's considered like the
acceptable range of politicallyviable beliefs are, you know, is
shifted so far to the rightover the last 40 years that I
don't, i think we're a long waysfrom getting that back into the
(24:27):
discussion.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I think of like the.
Was it the CCC that FDR startedto kind of get jumpstart the
economy way back in the 30s andmy dad was part of one of those,
a Civilian Conservation Corps,if I remember right.
Yeah, my background.
Wouldn't it be nice if therewas that sort of thing for
theater?
you know that were yeah live,live events like that, that you
(24:51):
had people going around withdifferent projects that could be
done to light the fire.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
That's the thing, and you know, and of course
Roseville had that as part ofthe new deal.
But you know, my, my ex-wife,is a speech pathologist and she
hasn't had and by she I mean her, she and her colleagues in New
York State, the state, the ratethe New York State Pays Speech
(25:17):
Pathologists hasn't gone upsince I want to say 1997 or
something like that.
I mean, like it doesn't.
I'm not talking about gone upcompared to cost of living
adjustments.
There's been no cost of living,so in essence, they're making
far less than they used to, andso it's just.
I mean, i mean, this is a wholeother podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
You know that's holy cow, so something that's about
the government saying here right, it was built at theater right.
Well, do you think maybe ourproblem is too that we, we look
to the government to solvethings that you know?
did the government sponsorescalus?
Speaker 3 (25:53):
you know Euripides, you know, you know maybe it's
well, i mean, to be honest, idon't know.
Maybe no I mean, i don't knowand certainly the traditional.
There's room in the traditionalsort of Edward Berkey and
conservative model ofconservatism for these, for
(26:14):
communities to come together andfor people to, you know,
individual organizations, to doall these things too, and I
would.
I'm not suggesting it all needsto come from government, and I
could see arguments mitigatingagainst that, but I don't also
see it coming necessarily from,in a big way, from private
institutions.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
All right, well, in the minute you do that, you
private thing to you, who'sgoing to regulate the message?
then at that point, you knowthat's.
You know, yeah, i'll give youmoney, but you have to tell a
story.
I like you know, or?
Speaker 3 (26:44):
well, i mean, that's always a problem.
I mean, you know that could bea problem of the government,
theoretically, yeah.
So I mean it's.
I mean, but that's an age oldthing, right?
I mean, we're all someone Iforget who goes in with an
artist's dream.
They dream of money, which iswhich I think I would say well,
who doesn't dream?
but yeah, I mean as artistswe're.
(27:05):
You know it's interesting too,because you go into the arts
very often, because you don'tquote unquote care that much
about money you're not even tomake a lot of money, but you
realize that money is veryuseful at buying things.
And you know, in order tosustain yourself and our economy
and culture, you have to have.
You know, these, these plansand these dreams and these
ideals are great, but you needsome money to feed them.
(27:28):
Yeah, so that's always thestruggle.
It's a struggle for rock too.
At new normal rap.
It's trying to get, you know,grant money and you know the
individual subscriber donationsand stuff like that to keep us,
keep us moving.
And that's that's always thebig issue with.
With the theory, i think, is Imean, i guess there are
(27:50):
exceptions, but nine times in aten that the worries are all
money related.
It's how are we gonna, you know, fund this season?
you know it would be great ifour debates would be well.
What is our season going tolook like?
you know, what plays are wegonna pick?
that's a nice fun debate tohave, but it's nine out of ten
times it's well.
How are we gonna, you know,find the money?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
yeah, money makes the vote go around as cabaret, like
so.
So then the question, comingdown the line here, of talking
points.
I love this talking pointsthing and think, okay, let's go
to this then.
Um, how do you think that thisancient art form called theater
how do you think that it canevolve to keep up with the era
(28:31):
of netflix and chill and what ischill, by the way, is that, uh
well, i mean, apparently netflixand chill is sort of euphemism
for coming over and having uh,uh, you know, having sort of
intimate relations with someone.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
So, as a consequence, i can assure you, i uh, i don't
know, i don't know about itnever seen it um to me that it's
netflix on sleep.
I don't know I know I have anetflix out for me in that way
yet.
Um, but yeah, listen, i think Ithink it can embrace it.
I mean, i think one of thethings like and I don't mean to
(29:05):
keep bringing it back to new,normal rep, but, um, that's only
area of experience from which Ican speak directly is that it's
, you know, theater is moreaccessible than any time in
history.
Everything is more accessiblethan it's ever been, uh, which
obviously is a detriment too,because you're then, now you're,
you're competing againsteverything basically that's ever
(29:28):
been done or recorded, uh, butI think that's the way it can
evolve.
For example, the nationaltheater of great britain,
talking about national arts andarts theaters, uh, they have a
streaming app, which istremendously good, in which you
can watch high quality, uh, uh,video recordings of their plays.
Now, video recordings are plays, traditionally even pretty, all
(29:49):
but unwatchable, um, and you'lllose a lot of that essential
element that we were talkingabout earlier.
But these are updated and, um,the recording techniques are
such that, between the clarityand the different camera angles,
and that it does give you areal flavor of that and, um, i'm
not sure why I'm spending somuch time plugging the national
theater, and they certainlydon't need my help, but I would,
(30:12):
uh, the national theater aliveis a great streaming app, just
one example of the ways in whichtheater is sort of adapting and
it's staying current, not onlytechnologically but in terms of,
like things, that life isreally being lived by people.
I mean, as much as I love deathof a salesman, as much as I
love, uh, you know, fences, andI think these plays are timeless
(30:32):
and should be performed.
Um, equally urgently, if notmore so, we need new voices, new
playwrights talking aboutthings that are not, um, you
know highfalutin, and I thinksome people think of the theater
, as you know, like Euripides orShakespeare or things like that
, where people are in togas ortights or or toga tights, which
may be a thing um, and you know,sort of declining these
(30:55):
speeches in a very sort of,let's face it, boring and not
very, very human way.
Um, and I think plays need to beabout recognizable people and
recognizable circumstances anduh, in, so we need more of those
and more ways of transmittingit, and I think, you know new,
(31:15):
normal wreck is doing our part,i think, and hoping that people
will enjoy what we've put outthere.
But yeah, it's.
It can't just be the classics.
I think there's a place for theclassics and I think you know
there's a that's important, um,but Yeah, actually it has to be
work that really says oh my gosh, i so relate to this.
(31:36):
This is exactly like my life,and I don't see this being
talked about on TV or in themovies.
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
So we've talked about previously, i think as well, in
our discussion, but let's talkabout NNR, because that is kind
of an answer to that question,right?
The new normal is anorganization that you started
co-founded.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
Friends of myself and I started it.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Okay, it started in 2020.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Is that right?
It started in 2020 because itstarted out with a group of
actors and myself gettingtogether via Zoom every week and
just reading plays.
And then, you know, that was atime when a lot of people were
trying to put together videolike readings of plays, but they
were just people reading in,you know, scripts in their
apartments And, while that'sgreat, we thought, well, there's
probably a better way of doingit and a more sophisticated way
(32:25):
of doing it.
And we think in our firstseason we sort of got there.
We had four full-length playsby four different writers, from
a diverse group of writers,dealing with very different
issues, all of which ended up, ithink, being in some level
about community, although I haveto tell you that was sort of
accidental.
We sort of put on four diverseplays of excellent quality And
(32:50):
we feel we achieved that, and weare very excited about the sort
of democratizing nature of it.
Now, like you know, people geta chance to see this who would
normally never get a chance tosee it, and so that for us by no
means is, by no means is NNR anattempt to somehow compete with
(33:12):
live theater.
It's not.
It's in any way, and all of usin NNR.
Many have worked since then intheater And I hope to have plays
of mine produced again intheaters and all these things.
But this to me, is a greatancillary way of providing a
theatrical experience.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Sort of an augmentation from what I've seen
and looking at the Jericho.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I think that's probably a better way Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, so I keep thinking of this phrase of you
know we have a tendency to thinkeither or, but it's another one
of these both and answers Bothand Yeah.
So what have you found to bethe fruits of that doing that
You're in three years in now,roughly right Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, well, the thing that people keep telling us in
terms of the plays that theywatched very much was because
the way we set it up, justaesthetically, they felt they
were like in the scenes in a waythat in the play, in a way that
they have they don't in TV ormovies or even theater, because
(34:19):
the characters are it's directaddress, even when they're
talking to different charactersin the scene, and so you're sort
of very much involved in it andit's very incredibly there's an
intimacy to it which, becauseit's oftentimes I mean you can
watch it on television screensor whatever, but very often
people watch it on computers Andso it's just you and that
person face to face, and sothat's what we've come our way
(34:44):
with.
Is people saying that to us alot, that there's a real
intimacy to it And they feelthat they're very close, if not
in the middle of the action.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Okay, and it's very much kind of like this team's
call that we're doing now, wherethe actors are talking with
each other but they're lookingat the screen, so you're getting
that kind of immersive Right.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yes, exactly, and then.
But there's also a you know,there's green screens behind
them, so we can see is thatbasically they're all in the
same room together And that'sthe way we recorded all the
plays in 2020, in 2021, which isduring the pandemic, obviously,
of course And now we haven'tmounted full production since
then because we're waiting onsome more money, some grant
(35:25):
money, and the audio play thatwe put out on the podcast play,
which is really like anold-fashioned radio play in
terms of like sound effects andsoundscapes that we recorded
together in the same room.
But that was really excitingbecause we know some of us.
Actually, i knew all the peopleindividually, but there are
some people who've been workingtogether for two years and I've
(35:45):
never met in person until thatday.
So that was a lot of fun And sowe recorded it together.
And that's a different branch.
You know, in the UK, radioplays are done all the time,
their plays just performed onradio stations or put out in
podcast form, and in the USthat's starting to make a bit of
a comeback a little bit.
But we wanted to do that And sowe put out a play that is
(36:11):
accessible on any podcastplatform and it's free, and so
that really speaks to our hopeto sort of democratize
theatrical experience.
And again, it's a play, it'snot a skit, it's not a TV show
or something.
It's a play.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Right, right, is there a question of the format
of that You talked about therebeing kind of a green screen
thing?
I noticed with Jericho theversion that Marcia Mason, i
think, worked with at US thatthe backgrounds changed by
(36:48):
virtue of where the people were.
So at one point you know Joshis calling from Israel and he's
got the temples behind him.
So it was a quick and easy wayto establish that there are in
different places.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
But without having to And like, just like any scenery
backdrop would be in a theater,did you find?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
are those done live too, as well as recorded?
I mean, are there times wherepeople are buying a ticket and
coming in and it's being donethen and there?
Speaker 3 (37:17):
Well, we've had play readings, which, again, are very
different And those aren't likethe backgrounds and green
screens.
Those are sort of like themeetings, like we're having now,
where the actors would be intheir apartments and they would
read.
And we had several of those.
We helped have more of thosefor works that are in
development And people can comein and see, you know, and watch
(37:38):
a live performance of it Andthere's usually a talk back
afterwards and a question andanswer And it's really
invaluable.
For it's really invaluable forwhat was I going to say?
for audiences and playwrightstoo, the players, to hear these
words out loud is verybeneficial.
I know, as a playwright, i haveto hear it out loud before I go
(38:01):
anywhere.
We have to try and hone it andmake it better.
So we view that as sort ofbeneficial for everyone.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So I'm going to probe you more on Jericho, just
because that play that really Idon't know.
I don't know because I wasidentifying with the lead
characters too much, or what wasgoing on, but the
dysfunctionality of the familywas hilarious at one level, but
(38:31):
also extremely poignant.
You know, mom's trying tofigure things out, trying to do
what she can do for her sons,trying to help them, only to be
met with, you know, completerejection and a way that she
does, can begin to understand.
You know, the two people aretrying to find relationships
that, you know, one case wasonce and now is gone.
(38:51):
Or, you know, is it going to besomething, is it not?
And it's just a reallywonderful cradle of the human
condition.
So then, on top of it, you havethis you know, i don't know
what, is it fair to call it aconceit?
or the husband that's there,the conscience that's speaking
(39:12):
to her throughout it And is, youknow, i have to accept that
that's her interpretation of him.
But there's also a part of youthat's like well, maybe there is
a spiritual component therewhere he is still involved.
Who knows?
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Yeah, i mean.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
I try and leave that as loosey-goosey as possible.
So when you wrote that, itstruck me that it was partially
a play about 9-11 and what ithad done to us nationally,
internationally, and I'mpersonally you know, and you
have kind of a core.
we're just, we're blowing theplay.
(39:47):
You're going to have to readthe play and not describe it
anywhere near as well as it'swritten, but it seems like the
core.
for me, the core argument wascoming to grips with either
moving past it or not movingpast it and what moving past it
looked like for the differentcharacters, and who I can't
(40:08):
remember was Beth, the maincharacter, who has a line of the
effect of.
There are some things we shouldjust never get over.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah, there are some things you shouldn't be able to
recover from.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
So and yeah, yeah, she's trying to and yet
fundamentally it's like she, shefeels that she can't, she's not
going to, and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Yeah, it's funny you mentioned this clearly a play
about 9-11, and the funny thingis that I kept saying, as i was
writing it and showing it topeople like this is really not
nine eleven.
Nine eleven is just sort of theCommonality in the backdrop and
i was really adamant about it'snot about nine eleven, because
i felt like i wrote this forseveral years ago is not like
(40:51):
late.
Yeah, two thousand eight ish,two thousand nine ish time and i
think it started before thenand so i felt well, there's no
real.
I don't want to say that nineeleven.
You know i don't want to beinterpreted.
Is that, finally, a friend ofmine ever been directed original
production of it?
you know, it is kind of nineeleven jack, and it's okay to,
(41:13):
it's okay to them, and i thinkthat's what i was very reticent
to clean.
That, because it implied withthat perhaps might be The idea
that i really have something tosay about this.
A horrific event, and i don't,per se, have anything to say
about it, certainly not nosociopolitical level, but it's
(41:36):
just about people dealing,coping with tragedy in their
lives and A in burdens, internaland external, that they don't
know how to process or how toshare it or where to put it, and
i think in that sense it's Yeah, and some of them are via nine
(41:56):
eleven, some of them are not.
But that's not a nine elevenplay.
That's really about peopletrying to figure out What to do
with the imperfection of theirfeelings and attitudes and how
to reconcile what they want tobe with who they really are.
And you know, these people areall striving to for connections
(42:18):
and the connections are rightthere in front of them and they
have them sort of, but theycan't quite Make them stick the
way they like them to and theydon't fit perfectly, and i think
that's probably something mostpeople can relate to what's i
mean?
Speaker 2 (42:34):
it strikes me that It is a nine eleven play, but it's
not.
It's not a nine eleven play inthat it seeks to be a nine
eleven play.
It's that nine eleven is thecrucible That it is your
bringing to a head, if you will.
All of these different things.
I mean beth has her demons thatshe has to deal with, and you
(42:55):
know, one of the I honestlythought one of the wonderful tie
ins was she's dealing with didher husband is here, husband, i
guess?
i'm unclear.
Did her husband died because hewas helping other people?
did he get pushed by?
did he get, you know, pushedover so that he couldn't get out
, where other people did and shewas wrestling with you know the
(43:16):
anger that she would feeltowards knowing that that
happened.
Or, you know, was she whatever?
you know all the differentpossibilities.
And then here you have is it?
Is it josh the older, the olderbrother?
yeah, okay, who?
who admits that he probably diddo that, you know, to someone
as he was trying to get out?
so it's like, okay, now you're.
(43:39):
You're the person i've beenSpending all this time despising
and now i put a face to it.
Right, that, to me, is just athing that happens all the time
again speaks back to our.
One of our myriad of problemsis a country right now is we're
other rising people in sayingthat they're awful people for
doing this and that and theother thing, and it's like, well
(43:59):
, no, but in the rightcircumstances, just about
anybody can do This or that orthe other thing.
So what's your point?
Speaker 3 (44:07):
so yeah, yeah, that where people are all i mean.
you know we're a lot more likeme what we would like to admit.
i think, yeah times, and Wedon't know, we've all done
things on some level i thinkthat we are not proud of, and
(44:29):
Maybe it's just me, yeah i'mthere with you, yeah, i know,
and there are things that youknow, we wish we could take back
desperately, and we can't.
And Having to live with thattruth, which is hardly, you know
, a new revelation about thehuman condition, but it's one of
(44:49):
the things that everyGeneration of people that grows
up, i mean as we become adultsand experience life, it is a new
revelation for us every singletime that there are things that
we're gonna do, that we've done,that we're gonna really regret,
some of which Might change ourlives, the lives of others,
forever, and you have to livewith that.
You have to go on, and sometimesthings happen to you that are
(45:12):
completely unfair and yourmisrepresented, or you're just
the Victim of chance, in whichcase, in case of these
characters, nine, eleven, and itasks unfair things of you, and
it demands unfair things of youand it puts unfair burdens on
you, but you have to find a wayto move on.
I think i guess that's whatthis place about which i think,
(45:34):
one of the reasons why i reallywant to make it funny, because
otherwise it becomes a littleburdensome yeah, yeah, it seems
like you kind of walk that linebetween being didactic you know,
wanting to be instructional inthe yeah burden some versus
enlightening.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
You know that that is a Profoundly difficult line to
walk as far as i'm concernedyeah, i mean, i, i do honestly
feel that this is not falsemonocle.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
I do honestly feel like nothing to teach people
like i never i never go into aplay What the thinking of well,
this is.
This is an answer i want toprovide to be so.
It's always a question i wantto ask and then, you know,
explore these Situations.
You know what.
What.
What would i do or how would ireact and what would i be
judgmental?
and if i were judgmental, whatmitigating factors are my not
(46:29):
taking into consideration?
you know, blah, blah, blah.
So i like to sort of raise thestakes and put it into a
crucible, as you say, and seehow people behave and not try
and try, never do it with realjudgment either.
I think there are moments inthe play where every single
person behave poorly, buthopefully, hopefully, if i've
(46:50):
done my job right, because theactors were wonderful and
marsham mason was a brilliantdirector That you think, why
understand why they did.
I may not necessarily love it,but i totally get it for human
thing to do right and i thinkthat, you know, and that is the
same sort of principles are verydifferent, very different story
, but the, you know, the radioplace, step nine, we have out on
(47:11):
the podcast platforms for freeminutes, that sort of Same
jumping off point in terms of,like you know, there's a real
moral dilemma, real cruciblepeople are placed in and let's
see how they react, and Evenpeople who love each other, you
know, not being able to quitegrasp each other and ending up
hurting each other.
That meeting to that kind ofthing.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
but again, hopefully also funny, because otherwise
Yeah, it's gotta be some fun toit, because there is fun, right,
there's any way to kind of stepback a little bit and go.
Okay, do you know, i think oneof the things that's fascinating
to me is the concept of allthese characters, that initially
different characters you lookat and go.
(47:53):
I have kind of a Jerk.
But i found, you know the.
It struck me that there's avery even handed treatment of
your characters, that, as yousaid, at some point you get to
the point where, like, okay, nowi get why they're that way.
Alright, i can cut him someslack now.
So do you find that you, you'regoing through that process, or
is that always your intent?
(48:14):
that, as you're writing thatyou're you, you you have you
believe that there's a reasonfor all these people to be the
way they are and you're, you'rejust gonna let them be who they
are.
Let that take it world where itwill yeah, i mean i?
Speaker 3 (48:27):
i think the answer is a little bit of both.
I mean i.
Yes, i try to let thecharacters dictate what happens,
but if i'm doing my job right,i, they are being human beings.
By definition.
That means they're doing thingsthat are less than perfect,
sometimes unless i'm in our caneven be infuriating or upsetting
, but they have reasons,everyone has reasons.
That doesn't dismiss, thatdoesn't absolve them of any of
(48:49):
consequences, but i wanted to, iwant very much to Not have
anyone sort of be cartoonish lee, you know, static and like
cardboard, like in terms oftheir obvious, like a straw man,
so to speak of of all.
This person is wrong, and thenthe wrong in their thing.
(49:09):
This person is right in theirthinking and there's gotta be a,
there has to obviously be amiddle ground is in line and, of
course, and tying it back tothe real world, i think the
biggest danger these days thatwere also siloed, so to speak,
and like our viewpoints and usethe word other, yet other, the
other is the other is That'sgoing on more, far more even
than it was happening when iwrote the play, and it's really
(49:33):
important to note that thesepeople on the left or right.
You feel are no longerincorrect.
About sale, i disagree with therate.
They want to Put a margin taxeson our disagreeing capital
gains tax.
You feel now these people areare evil or you know.
Either way, they're there, areout to destroy america with
(49:53):
their, with their ugly woke isand or with their fascist to
tower, and both things can betrue.
They both can hold thesebeliefs.
But also, when you know themindividually, you think i will
be human beings and they havedecent, you know they've decent
impulses And that's, i think,one of the great quandary that
we face is how to be able todisagree politically but also
(50:17):
see the kind of commonality inone of the and so i think that's
one of the things that i thinki try to do and my place and i
just think, i think all goodwriters doing that and try to do
in their plays.
You know, i had a play i playedcalled fellow travelers, which
is about which we talked aboutlast time, about elia kazan and
arthur miller, and we've beenvery easy demonize elia kazan
and one of my challenges is oneminute.
(50:38):
I'm gonna try not to judge him.
You know, i know the audiencewas to judge him.
That's absolutely.
They're right, but i, my job isnot to make a saint out of
miller or a demon out of kazanand show you, just tell the
story as if they were people,because it turns out they
weren't.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Yeah, we all have demons, so jack i, i.
I try to be respectful of thetime and respectful of the fact
that you have a dog that needsyour tlc, so So we can keep
talking.
I hope again will just yeah, ihope so.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Let's face it i'm not doing much, so i'm always
around.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
While you didn't have a critical house emergency this
week.
That's good so.
But this can be one of thosethings we check in with one
another and just say, okay,what's what's, what's the play
going on today?
Because it what's the oldshakespearian thing all the
world is a stage and we are butplayers in it yeah, yeah it's
right, it's a and it if it i'm.
(51:37):
I'm still not quite sure if it'sa comedy or drama or just a
farce.
I'm not sure what.
What version we're in right nowas a country care to point to a
lavery.
Speaker 3 (51:50):
There's that.
There's a famous line of thehistory, i think i forget the
order, it's a, but i thinkthere's one line of the history
plays out first is tragedy andthen is force, and sometimes i
think the opposite is also.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Very much so, jack, thanks so much, appreciate your
time, appreciate your, so pleasetake care of yourself until we
meet again.
Yes, please, you know.
Thanks for listening to usfolks here on frame of reference
profiles in leadership.
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