The Quest for a Fairer World: Uncovering Injustice and Empowering Change

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What if we told you that understanding the truth and facts surrounding race relations, inequality, and justice could help us create a more equitable world? Antowan joins me in this eye-opening conversation to unravel the complexities of justice and truth, especially as they relate to societal issues like addiction, poverty, and politics. Together, we aim to dispel myths, correct misunderstandings, and inspire change.

Diving into distributive justice, we discuss the clash between those who have earned their wealth through hard work and those who believe they've been denied equal opportunities. From uncovering the root causes of injustice to exploring the power of humility and accountability, Antowan and I navigate the often-challenging terrain of race and morality. Addiction, a topic intrinsically linked to poverty and disconnection, is also put under the microscope as we examine the best ways to approach it with understanding and compassion.

As we discuss restorative justice and potential solutions for addressing inequity, the role of politics and power in shaping our views on justice becomes apparent. We tackle the complexities of the voting system, political polarization, and the power of money in influencing narratives. Join us in this thought-provoking episode as we shine a light on the importance of focusing on the facts and working together to build a more just and equitable society for all.

What does it say about us as a nation that we are willing and complacent about serving out Justice that is biased and corrupt.  So many communities benefit from there being good, even and fair justice served.  Others not so much.  Join us as we try to unravel just a bit of the disruption caused by having two sets of rules.

Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Let's have it, hey, what's happening?
What's happening, my friend?

Speaker 2 (00:19):
What's happening?

Speaker 1 (00:21):
So I'm all pumped up.
My friend, my brother, AntoineHolman, who is sitting across.
He and I have been talkingbefore we got going with this
recording.
I'm pumped, I'm pumped,Hallelujah.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Are you pumped, Antoine?
Oh, absolutely, man.
I just can't wait for theconversation.
It's just a great day.
The sun is shining.
You couldn't ask for better.
We're in our right minds.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Let's remind people we live in Wisconsin.
okay, So to have a day likethis, this is a blessing.
You know, sunny, upper 70s, low80s, It don't get no better
than this.
So B-pigs, a new month.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yes, you know it's like here in Wisconsin we can
have all four seasons in a week,right.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, my brother said years ago, the day I was born I
was born July 2nd 1960, and hesaid he thought something weird
was going on because, like inthe morning it was sunny, i
think, and then later on the dayit got all cloudy and rainy and
there was hail and thunder.
And he's like I was like whoa,what's going on with this kid

(01:29):
being born today?
So and I thought, oh, geez,thanks, that doesn't sound too
reassuring, for you know mypositive impact here in the
world, but oh, yeah, and Iforgot who am I again?
What did we say?
my name again.
Do you remember my name?

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, my brother Raoul LeBresh.
I'm Antoine Hallman, senior,and this is a frame of reference
coming together.
We're talking about racerelations.
We're talking about comingtogether.
We're talking about bringingunderstanding, dispel and myths,
Just correct andmisunderstandings and just
trying to bring people to thetable for just some really good
talk on how we can actually cometogether and start to address

(02:08):
some of the things that affectus today, like inequality, just
spirituality, just any moralissues.
What can we do to make thingsbetter?
That's what we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
I like to think of us as a frame of reference
conversation starters.
So there we go.
You know we're.
We're here trying to justfigure it out.
You know, and both of us, youknow Antoine's got a perspective
, ag got a perspective We'd bethe first people to tell you
we're not, we don't have it allfigured out.

(02:41):
And that's the reason I thinkboth of us had it on our hearts.
To try to figure it out was atleast let's try to move the
needle, even if it's just, youknow, eight, one thousandths of
an inch.
Move it forward.
You know, because if you letthe world and the media shape
your discussions and what you'rewilling to discuss, and you

(03:03):
know how you listen to oneanother, i mean there is just no
listening going on right now.
You know, i mean you can't usedto be.
When I was a kid, you could,you know, say, oh, they're
Democrats, they're Republicans,and it's like, you know, billy
and Tommy were still like, oh,okay, you're a Democrat, okay,
yeah, i'm a Republican At leastthat's what my dad says we are
And it was fine.
You kept going on.
Nowadays it's.

(03:24):
You know, you're a Democrat,you're an idiot.
You're a Satan lover, You knowwhat do.
you are Republican.
Yeah, you're a Satan lover too,You know and you're just like
God.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
What?

Speaker 1 (03:33):
the Lord is going on here and it doesn't have to be
that.
You know, there are all kindsof subjects that just divide
people.
So I just want to say Americasettled down.
You know, listen, god gave ustwo years and one mouth, which
are we intended to use more?
So it's, it's one of thosethings.
But you said it, man.

(03:54):
We are talking justice todayAnd, as I am want to do
sometimes, i just looked up,while we're talking, in the
Miriam Webster dictionary online, the word justice, and it has
several different meanings.
Okay, the first meaning is themaintenance or administration of
what is especially, what isjust, especially by the, by the

(04:20):
impartial adjustment ofconflicting claims or the
agreement, assignment of meritedrewards or punishment, as in
meeting out justice.
And then, along with that goesa judge, especially a judge of
an appellate court or a court oflast resort as a Supreme Court.

(04:40):
So there's got to be let me goout here, because it goes
further that there is a qualitywith that judge.
There's a quality of beingjudge, just, impartial or fair,
but has a conformity to truth,fact or reason.

(05:02):
So think about that.
How much justice is there inthe world today, folks, and
we're talking about itspecifically in relation to race
justice, race injustice, racialinjustice.
But you know, when you talkabout conformity to truth, fact

(05:23):
or reason as being part of thejustice equation, what is our
conformity to when we talk aboutjustice these days, are we
talking about fact?
Are we talking about truth?
I mean, how many there's thisthing called perjury?
right, if you don't tell thetruth, you're committing perjury
in the court.
And that used to be that.

(05:44):
You were, people were soterrified of being, you know,
accused of and convicted ofperjury that that would, that
would make them tell the truth.
You know that would.
If you, if you worried aboutthat, if you believed that that
was enough of a reality orpotential, you you, you know
stood up straight.
You, you know, flew rightbecause you didn't want that to

(06:05):
happen and have it be found outright.
I don't know, i don't know aboutyou, but I don't know that I
see that as being a realdeterrent these days, because
you can lie, you can distort,you can take a sound bite out of
context, and it's not a lie,it's just an interpretation,

(06:28):
it's just an opinion, and anopinion that is not based on the
second part of this fact.
So, or a reasonable conclusion,because we also talk about or
reason.
I think we've got a whole slewof things going wrong with
justice today as a result of thealignment, misinterpretation,

(06:54):
misappropriation because you canappropriate that, you can
excuse me, you can determine anagenda that is preconceived and
predetermined and, pre you know,agreed upon in that agenda can
drive what sort of justice youhave.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
And you made a great point there, brother.
When we talk about justice, youknow, and of course we talk
about law or the Constitution,right, it's open for
interpretation And thatinterpretation is going to be
based on that people, thatpersons or that group's truth,
right, you know.
But when we talking aboutjustice as a whole, or as a

(07:36):
racial issue or social, economicissue, you know, we're talking
about fairness, equality, we'retalking about moral behavior,
lawfulness and order, you know,keeping things in order, keeping
things up, you know, people,this is where, like I think,
where the interpretation startto kind of get that fork at the
road, right, you know, of course, we got justice.

(07:57):
And then, of course, somepeople say, when justice we're
talking about, you know,equality, equity, things like
that People say, hey, let's goall again.
This goes back to the beginningof time, when no slaves right,
you know, of course I talk about.
People say, hey, i want anequal playing field, and it's
like, well, you know you have anequal playing field.
It's like, no, we don't.
We're going back to the issueswhen, say, when land was being

(08:19):
distributed, given by thegovernment, nor everybody was
able to get land except fordomestic workers and
agricultural workers.
And who are those workers?
They were slaves, they wereindigenous people, and so that's
one fork in the road where it'slike now we're talking about
justice.
Going to that one fork in theroad, people are saying, hey, we
need equality, equity, fairness.
And then the other group that'ssaying, hey, you know what?

(08:41):
I worked my tail off, i didwhat I was supposed to do, i got
what I was supposed to get, andnow you're telling me I have to
pay more to make sure that youhave equal.
And that's where you know thatfork in the road comes in,
because you got you mentionedthis before, brother the haves
and the have nots, right?
You know, of course, when wetalk about justice social,

(09:01):
economic, racial justice youknow, given equity, making it an
even playing field And then youget the other group saying, hey
, you know what I've?
they, whether they've workedthe tails off all their life or
they just won life's lottery,right?
They are saying, hey, whyshould I pay to make it better
for you?
Now, of course, in theConstitution I think it's the

(09:24):
preamble when it says we got topromote the general welfare and
ensure the blessings of libertyand for ourselves and our
prosperity, right?
And it's like a lot of peopledon't want to do that.
Now, you know, we're talkingabout that distributive justice
where people are like you knowwhat I got mines, now you get
yours.
But then of course it is likewhy are you relying on the

(09:45):
government to give you what youdon't have, when I actually went
out and got what I have?
but again we're talking, we saythose things People are don't
want to have, the real.
It goes all the way back.
You know there's a root causeto everything, right.
And so, getting to the rootcause, and it's like but now the

(10:05):
root cause doesn't want to beacknowledged, so to speak, by
some people.
But we have to acknowledge theroot cause, deal with the
problems of that root cause andcome to fair solutions.
It's like it's going to requirea change of heart.
People have to yield.
There's going to have to bemore patience.

(10:26):
It's just justice.
It has so many differentmeanings, right, it's like, hey,
because now there's theentitlement part And then
there's the other part whereit's like, hey, work for what
you're supposed to get.
And then, of course, there areso many levels to this
conversation, but I'm going toyield it back to you.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Let's you know.
Let's just focus on the firstpart of that, the conformity to
truth.
Okay, I mean, who were youtalking about in the very
beginning of that?
the maintenance oradministration of what is just?
So that's where you know ifwe're talking about justice.
Is the maintenance oradministration of what is just,

(11:11):
And then you look down and youget down to justness, is the
quality of conforming to truth,fact or reason.
So, just truth, What is truth?
You know that's been the natureof so many malignments in the

(11:32):
world of justice is truth, andwho determines what truth is?
You know, we have that battlegoing on with books, right, With
things that are written inbooks.
Is something true or not?
And we can determine truth, bywhich truth we accept right,

(11:53):
Your truth is not my truth And I, my daughter and I actually
have this discussion a lot.
You know, how do you?
how do you determine, is theresuch a thing as absolute truth?
And you know I would go backand say, well, yeah, there's at
least one book.
I can think of that as absolutetruth.
But then when you're in theworld of man and you know people
, people, and you know, okay,that's not just say man, because

(12:15):
, But when you're in the worldof humanity.
Truth is a dicey topic.
It's a malleable right Product.
You can shape truth.
We've got red truth.
We've got blue truth.
We have a truth for polkadotted situations.

(12:36):
We have a truth that makes youfeel good.
We have a truth that makes youfeel awful.
We have a truth that makes youwish you had done things
differently.
We have a truth that takes youto highest realm of possibility
because you've accomplishedsomething wonderful, And it's

(12:57):
true that it was all because ofwho you are and what you did
with your opportunities.
There are all kinds of truthsthat are out there that I think
one has to always examine.
Who does this truth serve?
Right And?

Speaker 2 (13:14):
yeah, brother, and that's awesome when we talk
about that form of justice,based on what truth?
right, the Bible tells usthere's only one truth.
He says my word is truth, andthat's a Psalm 119, 160.
The entirety of my word is true.

(13:35):
And so I, in this, of course,i've come to just believe that
the Bible is the one and onlytruth.
The Bible says let God be trueand every man a liar.
And there's two answers toevery question There's God's
answer and then there's man'sanswer.
Man is always going to be wrong, and so I lean on that these

(13:59):
days because, again, it's likewhen the truth, when God's truth
, is revealed in every situation, yes, there, with God's truth,
comes conviction right.
And so when that truth isrevealed and that conviction
comes down, it's two thingsthat's going to happen.
A person is either going toyield to that truth and do right

(14:22):
, or they're going to doubledown on what their stance is and
stay in a carnal mindset.
The Bible says when justice isdone, it is a joy to the
righteous but it's a terror toevil doers, and that just kind
of explains what I was justsaying.
It's like, you know, when thatone truth comes down, either
you're going to accept thattruth or you're going to double

(14:45):
down on the lie And that kind ofconforms to.
Again, when we're talkingjustice, you're going to have
two big one person's justice isnot another person's justice.
Well and think about the.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
you know, we've been using the word to quantify or
qualify what truth looks like.
And part of the, the sickness Iguess I'll call it today, is
that we have a lot of peoplequoting the word and using it
again.
You know, let's think about whodoes this justice serve?

(15:21):
So I can, i can, quote allkinds of scripture and people do
all the time Preachers, i getit, christians that are, you
know, pretending in some waythat their superior morality
gives them the rights to docertain things.
or, you know, they're alwaysgoing to be right, correct
because of their, you know,found, you know, profound
understanding of the scripture,you know.

(15:42):
but again, who is that serving?
Because if you're servingyourself to make yourself look
like something to you know, itgrand eyes, your opinion on
things, that's to me that, youknow, that's a testing of the
spirit of what's going on.
And I don't think that we dothat.
We just say, oh, he's teachingthe word God.
so you must be a godly man.

(16:03):
And no, you know, i can go putmyself in a garage and call
myself a car, but that doesn'tmake me a car, you know.
so you can, you know, hold upin a church.
you can call your minister andsay you're a man of God, but it
doesn't necessarily bring outtrue.
But that doesn't mean thatthere aren't people that are
doing that really serving.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Well, people, that is , that's a, that's a, that's a
right there.
That's a truth in itself, youknow, because that does happen
and it does exist, and but, likeI was just saying, when that
truth is revealed, is two thingspeople going to do they're
going to examine themselves andturn from their ways and do
what's right according toscripture, or they're going to
continue on their way.
And yes, god's word is going toalways be debated, it's always

(16:45):
going to be contradicted, it'salways going to be something
against.
You know, once again, it'seither going to be a spiritual
mindset or a carnal mindset.
And you know just me, i canonly speak for myself and my
household.
We choose to live in aspiritual mindset.
You know, and and andeverything.
The Bible says hey, there'snothing new under the sun.

(17:05):
What we're experiencing todaywas done back then, and so, and,
and we just have to learn fromwhat we've seen.
People that don't know history,we're doing the repeated right,
right And so, and what we'reseeing?
that's what we're seeing rightnow, and the thing is the truth,
what we're talking about again,truth is, you know, some

(17:27):
people's truth is based on howthey feel.
I myself and my household,we've chose to live by the truth
of the Bible.
Now, i can't, i'm not going topush it down people's throat,
i'm not going to bash you overthe head with my Bible if you,
if you, disagree, but it'ssimply put.
I know it's like I'm going toallow my steps to be ordered in
this direction.
Now, of course, i didn't alwayslive this way, so, and I can

(17:51):
tell, share my testimony withfolks that when it says, my
truth used to be totallydifferent.
But now my eyes and myunderstanding have been
enlightened and I choose to livethis way.
And then, of course, in livingthis way, i will share God's
Word in every situation.
I'm going to let the Holy Ghostdo what He do in every
conversation.
And and hopefully He touchedthe other person on the other

(18:13):
side of the aisle or on theother side of the table, or
standing right next to me, orhowever it may be.
But you know we're talking aboutjustice.
It says so many moving parts toit.
Again, like we were talkingabout the Constitution and the
laws of the land.
It's almost nothing, is reallyetched in stone.
It's all open forinterpretation.

(18:34):
But you know, in the course of,like you said, just like how
people can take scripture anduse it to manipulate or try to
make themselves seem a certainway, saying with law and justice
, people will take the law,they'll take justice, they'll
take the Constitution.
They'll say, oh, it's my rightto do this certain thing.
And but again, is it?
is it bringing equity?

(18:54):
Is it bringing equality?
Is it bringing moral?
moral, is it still upon themoral compass?
Is it?
is it really bringing order towhat we're doing here today?
And and again, justice, youknow like, from philosophers,
policymakers, even humanitarians, everybody's going to have a
different view on justice.

(19:15):
And and and, but.
Again, it's like a simplestterms.
You know we're talking aboutfairness and order, right, you
know, that's that's what justiceshould be Fairness, order,
that's what it should be.
But you know, of course, thereare people that fight against
that Because, again, like I wassaying in the early part of the
conversation, you know somepeople going to say, hey, i work

(19:36):
my tail off, you know I, why,why should my, why should I pay
more to make sure this person islifted up?
You know why?
and then this person is likehey, i was born into a tough
situation.
I can't get ahead, regardlessof what is happening.
I need a little help.
Why can't.
Why am I, why is my help beinghindered?
And so, and it's just, you gottwo sides of the coin.
And, and that's where, you know,what we're talking about today

(19:58):
is like, how can we come to themiddle of this?
You know, to bring the read thethe fair division of A quote,
the fair division of things inthe country.
You know, i'm not now when itcomes to Certain laws and things
like that.
No, i'm not a big believer ofthe government control and

(20:22):
everything, but I do believethat there should be some things
equal across the boards, wherethe states should just shut up
and it's just the law of theland, the right to vote, the
right for a woman to choose todo what she want to do.
I believe that there should beequal health care.
No, those three things I thinkevery it is These are just to be
just cut and the deesh just beclear, cut things.

(20:43):
Now, like I said again, i'm nota proponent of the government
control and everything, butthere are some things that
should just be equal and evenacross the board.
You know, in the course of Andthat's what I, that's where I am
with that what we were justsaying.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Well, then when we talk about justice being the
administration of what is just Imean that's what governments
are referred to asAdministrations you know they're
, yes, they.
What they do is, you know,develop laws that are agreed to
by the people as being importantthings to do, and you know that
this, this is just For the lawof the land, and then they

(21:18):
administer that, they make surethat that's happening.
And where the problems becomeis people voting on the basis of
just one aspect That you knowthey're fervently believing in,
without looking at the bigpicture and saying, well, wait a
minute, what's what of this istrue and just and what of this
is just a Talking point, becausethat's that when you go into

(21:40):
the second part of this, youknow the that there is the
quality of Conforming to the lawOkay, that's part of it.
But then that conformity totruth, fact or reason okay,
there's a.
There's a story years ago of apolitician listening to
testimony of Individual.
I don't I really have to lookup so I get the specifics of the
situation.
So I will do that at some pointhere so I can speak more

(22:02):
authoritatively.
But the the discussion wentbasically to the fact I think it
was Moynihan that challenged aguy that was was presenting
Information and he stopped himdead in his tracks and said no,
wait, wait a minute, sir, youare entitled to your own opinion
, but you are not entitled toyour own facts.
And that becomes a real issuethese days, because what is the

(22:24):
facts?
You know, even you know touchysubject, very difficult subject
to talk about George Floyd.
You know you can talk about thefacts of that case.
Did he in fact have acounterfeit bill?
We think so.
Okay, we think so.
There, you know, at leastthat's how the transaction that
was completed Shortly beforethat, you know, was had he been

(22:44):
a drug user?
Is that the factual right now?
now, once you get away from thewho, what, where, how, and
start getting into the why, wasit a fact that his neck was, you
know, underneath the knee of alaw enforcement Officer?
for what?
over nine minutes?
is the, i think, what they timeon the video that was taken of

(23:06):
the process?
is that a fact?
Yes.
Was that the cause of his death?
Fact, yes.
Now, the minute we start gettinginto why That happened, that's
for things go to hell in ahandbasket real quick.
You know so, whenever you starttalking why, you're talking
about.
What was the intent?
What was the?
You know, what was the, thereason for that person doing

(23:30):
what they were doing?
and then we start conjecturingall kinds of things.
You know, why was he passing a$20 bill?
because he's a criminal.
Why is he taking drugs?
because he's a you know, youknow just a horrible person, and
you know that he got what wascoming to him, right, i think,
where I hear that thought goingway.
You know, why was that copdoing that?
because he was afraid, becausehe was, he thought he was, his

(23:52):
life was in danger.
He had dealt with a lot ofthese guys before.
You know, yeah, or or.
He was out of control.
He's out of control.
He had lost the ability toself-regulate and the result of
that was a man died.
Okay, so you know, so you keep,you get into those whys.
And that's where you know, asthey say, hell in a handbasket.

(24:13):
We go really quickly.
So can we?
how do we determine the fact ofthat?
Well, the, the person that'susually realizing that.
Well, if I say this is the factversus this is the fact, the
Consequences for me are going tobe greater.
Blah, blah, blah.
So my truth Will be yes, i hadhad really bad experiences and

(24:33):
this was a hard day and I justcome from, so you can start
making it.
You know this is my truth andthat's a big Yes, that's a big
problem, right, because again,who is the truth serve?
I don't know many people thatwill come and say you know why
that happened?
It's because I made some reallybad choices I did.

(24:53):
I did some things that inretrospect I should not have
done.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
How often do you hear that, that self-examination
piece, when I, like you, saidthat humility piece, we can
admit a wrong.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, yes, yeah, and you can take the the
Consequences for that wrong.
You know we're big on rights,rights.
I have the right to this.
I have the right to that.
But yeah, you also have aresponsibility to Own up, to
fess up when you use your rightsfor an adverse Conceal in a

(25:25):
verse situation or an adverseeffect on someone else.
Yes, i have the right to freespeech, but when my free speech
incites other people to commitviolence, when I speak words
that get people so riled up thatthey stop being reasonable and
start being just totallypassionate, fearful Monsters,

(25:49):
you know Now, yeah, i had theright to have it, free speech
But I also have to takeresponsibility for the results
of that, that speech, that thosewords.
And that's where it all breaksdown, constantly, constantly
breaks down as people focus onthe right and will not accept
responsibility.
Because even if it wasn't whatthey intended.
I didn't mean for it to happenthat way.

(26:11):
Okay, all right, wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
You know it doesn't reallymatter what you meant, what you
thought, what you hoped You,because we can't examine that,
but what we can look at is whathappened.
These are the facts of whathappened and we can see the fact
of this is what you said, thisis what you called them to do,
this is what you.

(26:31):
You know the hate that youspewed out, whatever.
And You know, look, you take,put on your big boy or girl
pants and fess up and say gosh.
You know I was consumed with mypassions of what was going on,
what I believe in, and somehorrible things happened as a
result of that and I I wish theyhad not.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
I wish I, in retrospect, i wish I had not
said what I said right, and Youknow you're amazing and that was
my, that was some heavy stuffthere, and you know we're
talking about no, that form ofjustice.
You know it's like right,really getting to the fact of
the matter, and that's where thepatience comes in.
And you know it's uh, we're insuch a People are impatient

(27:18):
because they want to get to thenext thing, right, so, whatever,
like say, in the midst ofjustice, we're looking Beyond
the situation.
We always look that this justpeople as a whole is the way I
see it now, this is just mySeeing, is just like a I'm.
The people are so into the nextthing.

(27:39):
We don't want to talk aboutthis thing, we gloss over it.
And, like you say, becausewe're talking about the George
Floyd situation Now, i'm a firmbeliever that a wrong doer
should get the appropriatepunishment for what they did.
Let the punishment fit the crimeright, you get the crime, you
do the time, whatever the casemay be.
But when the Punishment or thejustice being handed down is

(28:03):
disproportionate, that's whereThings kind of get out of whack,
like you're saying.
Like you know, we were talkinglast week and we were talking
about, you know, cops, courtsand Corrections, right, you know
, and there's been so muchdisproportion In the
distribution of justice.
That's where the arguments lietoday.

(28:24):
That's where you got the rightside, left side.
You got the, the race cards.
Everybody got their hand up,like playing the game of spades.
Everybody got their hand readyto play their card.
I got a joker here, i got a.
Okay, i can't beat that one,but I'm gonna do this.
And it's like we're constantly.
No, we've been fighting thesame fights since the beginning,

(28:44):
since the very beginning.
However, you know, we're talkingabout justice and the
proportionate Distribution ofjustice.
Like you said a second ago,it's like a everybody's truth is
based on how they feel, and Butwe have to come to the table
and come to the Mindset of okay,because, again, just like you

(29:06):
made a great point too like inthat instance, right, you know,
when just justice is beinghanded out, the law, the
Constitution, justice is allopen for interpretation.
And even when that policeofficer, he has, He has been
given the authority toappropriate justice in a
situation, and then, if heoversteps the boundary, he

(29:28):
oversteps or he hands it outdisproportionately, yes, you're
going to have some people that'sgoing to agree with that saying
, yes, this, he got what hedeserved.
Or some people will say, hey,that was overkill.
You know, of course, even thewords out of George Floyd's
mouth were hey, man, i didn't doa violent crime.
Those are his words.
I didn't do a violent crime.

(29:49):
He, basically he was evenadmitting to it, right, but yet
that still happened.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Well, and what is he screaming as he's, you know,
dying.
You know, mama, i can't breathe.
You know, mama, i can't breathe, calling on his mama.
You know, i mean, it's likethat's, that's just.
If you see that it's like, ohmy lord, and they just kept
going, and let's realize, twofolks, i mean I, i'm yeah, is
that a horrible event?
Yeah, You know.
What's really horrible about it,though, is that you could not,

(30:15):
amongst my friends and familythat were white, okay, they,
when you brought up that topicabout you know, was it right,
was it right or not?
What happened to George Floyd?
And I couldn't get people tostay on.
Let's just think about therightness or wrongness of that

(30:37):
situation.
They would usually say, well,no, it was wrong, but I'd like
to see how many.
But I'd like to see how manyyou know white cops, or how many
black cops there are that youknow hurt white kids.
I'd like to see how many Latinocops hurt white kids, or you
know what about all those?
And you know, you, you can getsidetracked onto those things
really quickly, and you know youcan't stay on the was it right

(31:00):
or wrong?
And to me, that's part of thewhole problem with justness and
justice is.
We can't focus on the was thisright or not?
You know what?
what the the two opposing sides, whatever they are, can we
least establish a common groundand determine that No, we are
both committed to the fact thatthis was not right.

(31:23):
Because the reality is thatthere are people out there that
still think, oh, what do we care?
You know was a black drugdealer.
You know passing counterfeitmoney, i don't care if he dies
or not.
So what you know, and that'snot too far away from 1920s and
30s where churches were, youknow, having buses ready to go

(31:44):
at the services on Sunday Sothat they could all go out and
have a picnic lunch at thelynching that was occurring.
You know that, in that I mean,you might not want to hear that
That might make white peopleuncomfortable.
So if this is playing inFlorida, we're probably in
trouble right now.
But you know, and I you know I'msorry if I seem flippant on

(32:04):
stuff like that it's just, it'sanother realm of.
You know the absurdity ofthings.
It is facts and what.
What is real and what occurredis not subject to whether I like
it or not, whether it makes mefeel good or not.
That is like the last thing toconsider.

(32:24):
When you're talking about theconformity to truth, fact or
reason, which, if I'm going tosay I'm a just person, if I'm
going to say I believe injustice, that's what it is, then
it has nothing to do withwhether or not it makes me
comfortable.
It has nothing to do with anyof that.
It has to do with what happened.
What's the truth of whathappened?
The truth was that Biblebelieving quote unquote people

(32:49):
left church, usually early.
You'd think they were having abeer tent outside.
They left early, got on theirbuses and, you know, got out
there because they didn't wantto miss a lynching.
And nine times out of ten, thelynching.
Those kids were being lynchedfor things like he looked at a
white woman the wrong way or hemothed off to the sheriff, or I

(33:11):
mean you can look at the litanyof you know reasons that would
take you to a rope real quicklyAnd you know there was no
justice there.
You know, could you say therewas a fact that he did that?
Sometimes not, sometimes, yes,i don't know.
You know, did he get was it ablack man that just got tired
once and for all, being treatedlike garbage and mothed off to a

(33:33):
police officer.
Yeah, i would, oh my God, thinkabout that for a second.
Folks, all of the above.
You know, if white people had toendure.
You know, it's like theargument about George I'd like
to see how many black officershurt white people.
Do you really honestly somebodythere please challenge me on
this, that's out there listeningDo you honestly believe that if
a black officer killed a whitekid, kneeled on his neck for

(34:00):
nine minutes, do you reallythink that you wouldn't hear
about that?
Do you honestly think that thatwouldn't be the top news story
on every news channel across theuniverse?
So there's no video there.
People say, oh, i bet thathappens all the time.
I don't think so, and you know,prove it.
Show me the factual evidence.

(34:21):
Tell me the truth.
Tell the officer that has tosay well, yeah, i mean I, you
know I, i, the guy who wasworthless, come back.
He, of course, deserved to die.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
And you made some great points, brother, because,
again, like you know, when wesay how justice and truth is
based on how a person feels, youknow, just so, we have to face
that with the world we're livingin today, man, we're living in
the Dave Chappelle called it theage of spin.
We live in the age of spinwhere people are projecting
their feelings and ideals andbeliefs on the others And

(34:52):
they're deflecting from thingsthat know, like, like I'm gonna
say when we, when we try to getdown to the fact of a matter,
people will deflect Well, whatabout this?
Well, what about that?
Well, yeah, he deserved it, youknow, of course.
And when we're talking about thejustice, part of things, you
know, it's like yes, injustice,There has been injustice forever
, and now that things are, thesethings have always been here.

(35:15):
But I praise God for theyounger generation that are
starting to question and ask out.
The next group of activists are.
They're being raised up,they're coming out there
speaking against these thingsAnd I thank God for them, even
though, like say, if you don'tmind me saying, brother, like
your daughter, right, she has,she's getting a master's degree

(35:36):
in African Americanmulticultural studies.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
Right Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Interracial studies Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Interracial study curriculum Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
It's and see in those kind of things that's what I
celebrate.
It's like, cause people are youknow, your daughter's white,
but she, she wants to learn, shewants to know more, she wants
to try to make things right.
And there's more and morepeople coming out about that
because, again, no, i'm a firmbeliever in justice.
Right, you know it's like, hey,you do the crime, you do the
time.
But you know, the proceduralpart of justice is, is is

(36:09):
indifferent.
You know, like, remember how,back in the eighties, they say
oh, a white guy get caught withan ounce of cocaine, he's going
to do, he's going to get a fineand do 10 days in jail.
But a kid get caught with Idon't know, two, three vows of
crack cocaine, he's going to get10 years.
And so, in, these are theprocedural parts of justice that
have been unfairly dealt outover time.

(36:30):
But you know, and now we're allthese things are starting to
come to light And it's like andthese are facts, these are
historical facts, these arethings that are written, these
are things that can be proven.
No, you can.
You can you know what you callthe fact.
Check them for yourself.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Right.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
And then again it's like the truth is either going
to is either going to make youchange, or you're going to
double down on your life or keepyour stance.
You're going to put your feetin the ground and say I ain't
moving, i see what you're sayingbut I don't believe.
Or I choose I see what you'resaying but I choose to believe
different.
And that's where we are.

(37:07):
And look at, look at addiction.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
We touched on it, brother.
We have addiction And when welooked at the coke, the, the
crack cocaine issue that was,that was from a theater
background.
I can tell you that thatmessage was crafted in a way to
make the people that wereaddicted the crack babies, the
you know all the things thatwere covered by media sources

(37:31):
made that look as despicable aspossible, made those people they
pulled on the heart strings Of.
you know black children,showing them as crack cocaine.
you know the results of thataddiction and made it look as
subhuman as possible.
You know, absolutely subhuman,and it was.
you didn't see, you know thewhite people that were addicted

(37:53):
to crack cocaine.
You normally saw AfricanAmericans, that you know.
it was always people of colorthat were the ones that were
depicted as this horriblescourge that's affecting our
inner cities and and getting outinto the urban area.
You know the, the, the rural,and you know suburban areas as
well.
We've got to stop this.
And now fast forward, yearslater, to the heroin, the opiate

(38:15):
addiction that's going on rightnow.
How is that depicted?
Because that affects largely orat least there's a good chunk
of it, that's, you know, whitefolks that are affected by it.
Usually it's things likeshowing communities in Kentucky
or Tennessee that are, you know,west Virginia, where the

(38:36):
economy is just taken a tankerbecause the economy was based on
coal mining.
or you know things that havebeen hard economic impact issues
And those people you know weredealing with pain.
you know from injury that theysuffered in the coal mines and
got addicted to percocet, or youknow, got addicted to something

(38:56):
that that they lost theirhealth coverage because they
lost their job and they wereaddicted to this substance and
had to find other ways to get it.
You know there are, there arecompassionate portrayals of
those things that lead you downa different path.
Oh, those poor people.
Oh, my goodness, we need to do.

(39:17):
There's there isn't the samesort of what do we?
what we call it?
the assignment ofresponsibility is different.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Right.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
The assignment of responsibility is you know the
economic hardships and thecircumstances that that person
was forced into by.
You know things out of theircontrol versus the poverty and
the.
You know the bad choices andthe.
You know these are people thatare living off the government
And you know spending theirmoney on crack cocaine and

(39:47):
they're doing these evil,wretched things.
That's a whole different way.
You want to talk aboutpackaging the same fundamental
problem.
Because addiction good friendof mine, doctor talks about
addiction That the.
The cure for addiction is notabstinence, the cure for
addiction is connection.

(40:07):
And because as a person getsfurther and further into an
addiction.
They become more and moredisconnected from everyone
around them, and that that is,that is the fundamental core
thing that happens with anyonethat has had anyone that becomes
an addict and their family,whether it's alcoholism,
marijuana, cocaine, whatever.
What happens to that people?
is they those people?

(40:29):
is they separate more and morebecause they become so dependent
on the substance, whatever itis, that they can no longer
interact and and the peoplearound them that support them
give up and just say I can't, ican't deal with you anymore.
And then the ones that make itout I think a hundred percent of
the time, the ones that make itout make it out because
somebody held on, somebody heldon to them and wouldn't let them

(40:53):
slide all the way, and theykept telling them you matter to
me, i don't want you to, youknow, slide in, i don't want you
to die because of this thing.
So, and that that's completelydifferent.
You think about the, just theway that the story is crafted.
On the one hand, it's you know,this is disparable, despicable
behavior.
On the other hand, it's, it'spoor, these poor folks that have

(41:14):
had such a rough life handed tothem.
And the at the bottom of thewhole thing on both sides is
lack of connection, and I would,i would posit it's even more
insidious because, on the oneside, making people despicable
makes you not want to connectwith them and making people a
compassionate poor people makesyou want to connect with them.

(41:34):
So we're not only saying youknow, it's a completely
different package, but we'reintending, we're presenting the
truth, quote, unquote, the truthof that addiction, of that
substance abuse.
We are choosing to depict thattruth in a way that is not
truthful.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
And that is something that is sold to another group,
right?
Yeah, you know, like, like you,like you paint it, like you
paint it.
Both pictures, you know, oh,this addiction to opioids versus
this addiction to crack.
And of course, however, that,however, though you know, people
get to that point in theirlives.
It's like now, okay, now weneed to talk about the fair

(42:14):
division, like you said, yes,and when it comes to addiction,
the way to beat it is connection, because as you take the drug
away, like it's just, like yousay, when a person is being
freed from something, and asthat other thing goes away,
something else has to be pouredin.
Otherwise you got to emptyspace and then the bad thing can
come back.
You know the Bible has ascripture about that.

(42:35):
It's like, hey, you cast outthe devil and you don't fill it
with the word, that devil willcome back with seven more, even
more dangerous than him.
And so, like, you're right, man, that when you take away that
addiction, something else has tobe poured in.
But now we're talking about thedistributive part of justice,
where it needs to be a fairdivision of resources within

(42:56):
these communities, because,again, like the picture painted,
for one form of addiction isgoing to be, like you just said,
is going to be painted adifferent way for the other
group, and that creates adisparity in the division of
resources.
Right, and so that's what wegot to get back to is like, how
should we fairly distributeresources in these complex times

(43:17):
?
You know, of course, again,everybody's going to have their
opinion on.
Well, they did it.
It's a poor decision.
It's a poor decision, or,regardless of how a person gets
to a space, less love people,right, let's love on it, let's
admit that the fairness issue isnot necessarily equal.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
You know, there's this whole thing of you know
well, why should I give so muchmoney to them?
Well right, why would you giveso much money?
I don't know, if the shoes werereversed, would you want, would
you need that helping hand?
My dad, years ago, during thedepression.
He was working as hard as hecould, but he was just failing
to bring in enough money toreally feed his family.

(44:03):
I don't know if there werethree or four kids in the family
at that point.
So, and somehow, somehow,somewhere, a basket of food
appeared on their porch And mydad was so upset, so mad that he
, you know, he was like we'renot a charity case.
And my mom bless her heart.
My mom said Twen, shame on you.

(44:26):
That's just prideful, that'sjust arrogant.
You have kids to feed, acceptthis gift.
It's just she read him the riotact from what we tell, and it's
just like praise, god, you know, praise that my mom was a
strong woman and said you knowthere is a room, there is room
for wanting to take care ofyourself and then there's

(44:47):
arrogant room for, you know,arrogance to come in and keep
you from accepting the help.
So I put that out there becauseyou know you have to.
You have to differentiate.
Are there people that arelooking is there a factual case
for people are looking for justa handout to absolve themselves
of responsibility for takingcare of themselves?
Yes, factually, yes, there are,but far, far greater.

(45:10):
There are people that just needa hand.
They need somebody to providethem with, you know, education,
resources that you know, justfood to put on the table.
And when you're talking about,you know, now we're going to,
you know, change the labor lawsand make the, you know, welfare
situation more accountable.
So people are going to have toreally be accountable for

(45:30):
whether or not they get thesedollars or not.
When you know how, how do youwork more than the one job that
you already have, or the twojobs that you already have, and
provide childcare for your kids?
Because I don't know if youpriced out childcare these days,
but it's not exactly a bargaincame our blue late special out
there, you know.
So if you don't have a familymember that can take care of

(45:52):
your kids, you know, and andhelp with that, then all that
money is pretty much for not.
you're going to, you know,spend all your money on
childcare and then have nothingleft for anything else.
So does that person need help?
Of course that person needshelp And it's regardless of
their color of their skin.
They need help.
So and then you get it.
You know all the arguments thatcome out of that, you know well.
Why does she have all that?
It's children.
Why didn't she have all that?

(46:12):
She couldn't you could just,you know, kept a closed zipper.
Oh, oh, you know, like you know, i just get.
Come on.
People, compassionate, love,beloved.
Let us love one another, foreveryone that is loves, is born
of God and knows God.
Well, if we're going to lovepeople, you know we can hold
them accountable.
Say, hey, we are going to helpyou are.
We're going to help you find ajob.
We're going to help you gettrained for a job.
We're going to make sure thatyou have the ways and the means

(46:35):
to take care of, we're going totake care of your children,
don't worry about that.
We're going to providechildcare for them so that you
can get out of this.
But the plain and simple fact isthat there are halves and have
nots, and the haves have avested interest in keeping those
people at that level.
And for those of us that aresitting around saying you know,
not my problem, yes, it is.

(46:55):
It's your problem, because thatis a fellow human being, that's
a fellow American that you areletting suffered needlessly.
When we can, we can spend theamount of money that we spend on
the junk.
When, when Jeff Bezos can spend$500 million on a yacht, you
cannot tell me that there is notmoney to help people that need

(47:17):
help and hold them accountable.
I mean it's you know.
It's one thing to just keeptaking the money and taking the
money.
It's another thing to be heldresponsible.
You have the right to be takencare of.
You have the right for thestate to provide for you, to get
you in a position where you cancare for yourself.
You have the responsibility tolearn how to do that, to take
advantage of these opportunitiesthat are given to you.

(47:38):
So, and that can be done, theadministration of that justice
can be done.
It's just a matter of you know,making sure that the people
that are administering it arefair and just people.
They are committed to truth,they are committed to facts,
they are committed to reason andnot committed to an agenda that

(48:00):
makes their constituency feelgood about themselves, because
it's all about feeling goodabout yourself Right.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Yes, and you know, when we talk about that former
justice that was a great callout there, man You know it's
like, you know the goal shouldbe to repair.
You know not necessarily.
You know punish.
You know, of course, like, sayagain, going back to like, you
do the crime, you do the time.
But also when we talk aboutjustice, it's like, okay, what
about the victim of a crime?
How's the healing process began?
But also, you know we talkabout justice.
You know the engagement, theaccountability, the cooperation.

(48:28):
You know all those things arefactors.
You know, and, of course, youmade a great point about the
haves and have nots just asecond ago.
You know, and I'm not aconspiracy theorist, right, but
I do believe that they're, withthe taking away, like, say, as
you continuously keep a group ofpeople down and then there is a
deliberate attack to keep themin that same way.

(48:50):
And, yes, they're relying onfederal resources And now you
want to take those federalresources away.
I believe this is just me.
This is just Antoine Hohlmansenior.
I believe that this is adeliberate and direct,
deliberate and targeted processAnd it's leading to something
even worse.

(49:10):
I think this is my.
I believe people want chaos Sothey can create more laws to
make things more oppressive, tosay, see, i told you so, and but
again it's like this I believesome things are deliberate,
because we're if you, if you gotpeople that are living well
below the poverty line, right,right, right, you got people

(49:31):
living way below the povertyline.
They're relying on federalresources and governmental and
county resources.
You take those away, then what?
You got?
communities of homelessness,you got communities of despair,
and then comes this antichristthat's going to come with a
solution And it's not going tobe right, it's not going to be

(49:55):
fair.
And again, i'm just this is mejust saying like I mean, you
made a great point about thehave to have nots And I'm just
saying I believe there's adirect, deliberate attempt to
keep people in that way, becausewe're almost like we're headed
towards a new form of slaverywhere it's like I'm going to
keep you here and I'm going togive you what you own, i'm going
to give you just enough to live, and it's like that's what I

(50:18):
believe.
And again when we're talkingabout and but again we got to
get to the point of arestorative type of justice, so
to speak.
And again, because we mentionedthis in a previous podcast
where we're talking about thefinancial parts of things, and,
yes, it's like, say, some groupsof people whether we'll say

(50:38):
white and black or just thehaves right, they learn about
finances, they learn aboutcredit, they learn about these
things early in life, and thenthere are some that learn about
these things later in life, andyou know, and then it's like,
okay, now that I've got it is.
But it's this point where nowit's like if you are trying to
buy a house now, good luck, youknow, and but it's like these

(50:59):
resources, that's just to callit.
You know some things have beenunfairly distributed.
You know some things have beendisproportionate in the division
of things.
But now let's get to therestorative part.
Yeah, you know, how can werepair?
you know, let's, let's, let'sengage more, let's, let's.
Like you said, we're talkingabout the facts.
Yes, okay, you may have adifferent like, say, a person

(51:21):
can have a different set offacts or in their head, right,
okay, let's talk about that,let's dissect it, because I
would love to get to the tableand say, hey, uninterruptedly,
tell me how you're feeling, tellme your thought process, and
then let me tell you minds, andwe start there, you know, and
again it's like, but let's startwith the facts, let's start

(51:45):
with the truth.
Yes, let's absolutely.
And people don't want to acceptsome of the facts that are
written on paper.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
History itself Well, let's face it want to
acknowledge that you don't wantto say.
that makes you look bad.
You don't want truth that makesyou look bad.
Who does right?
Exactly So that's what thiswhole being.
I don't want things that makeme uncomfortable.
That's just not good.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
And this is the thing you know.
And again, calling out factsain't necessarily blaming you.
Today, you know, we just say,Hey, these are things that were
put in place that have made theplaying field a little unlevel.
So, now that we're callingthese things out, help us get to
the same level or help us getto a restorative get, get us to
a place with equity, to a placewhere our, the future

(52:29):
generations of our race or ourpeople can actually start to
move.
Because again, you know, like agenerational wealth, when we say
generational wealth, right, itain't necessarily a wealth, is
just like, again, going back tothe distribution of land, you
know those people, like a kid,you know he inherit the house of
his father, then he hand downhis house to his father, then he

(52:52):
hand down his house to hisfather.
You know what I'm saying, right?
And it goes on the noise Andwhat happens with that.
No, there's less things toworry about in that household,
in that group.
They don't have to worry abouthouse payments, they don't have
to worry about these things,they don't have to worry about a
place to live.
It's going to be more thanlikely that they're going to
have kids that go to collegebecause they don't have other
expenses, they don't have otherconcerns, they don't have other

(53:14):
worries.
And again and all we're saying,with this justice part, let's
get to the restorative part ofthings, of making things
somewhat equal.
You know like I'm a firmbeliever in rest, in reparations
.
I know people want to stone mewhen I say that, but I believe
in it doesn't necessarily haveto mean tons of money being
distributed to people, because Iknow that if you gave certain

(53:34):
people, if you gave a bunch ofblack people, a lot of money,
it'll cause more problems thangood.
So it's like it has to be a wayto just again whether it's land
, you know, whatever it is againcoming to the table community
centers, decent housing, i mean,you know the that's not there.
Because you know, yes, becauseyou know there's people living
in storage lockers.

(53:55):
Now you know, and, and, andthat's even a plan feel, you
know, when we talk about justice, let's just even the plan feel
make things fair.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Again, it's not a half dots to.
I mean you can be.
you might be sitting out therethinking, well, that happens to
white people too.
Yes, exactly, That's the point,Exactly.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
It's the joke, exactly.
And the thing is is just themoral insensitivity of people
are just so much rising, right,right, there's like I got mine,
you get yours.
Well, that doesn't pertain tome, you know.
Of course people have I, youknow put themselves in such a
space where it's like they're inthere, they live in their
bubble and nothing else matters,and you got people.

(54:31):
That that's how some people areliving today, and but you know,
let's just get again, let'sjust start to repair, restore,
engage.
You know, like, like you said,community centers, man, those
things have been deliberatelybeen taken away, you know,
because those are the resourceswhere, you know, kids of color,
or even low income white kids,they had a place to go to get a

(54:54):
afterschool snack or they gotsome kind of tutoring, they have
something that would know, somekind of tool or resource that
would change the trajectory oftheir lives.
Those things are being takenaway deliberately.
And so, again, let's just getto the restorative part.
You know, i just prayed thatthe Lord changed people's hearts
and and and let that be just alet's, just like you said, let's

(55:16):
just focus on the facts.
You know, let's stay right here, cause you know we can easily.
What about?
what about right?
I love when you say it let'sjust stay on the facts and and
work from there.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Well, let's pray that people are willing to change
their hearts.
Right, that you're willing toconsider that there might be a
bigger frame of reference.
That's our title of our show abigger frame of reference that I
haven't considered all of thethings that fall under this
category of justice, and I guessI'm going to put the I'll.
I'll leave us all with thisthought.
My, my central concern is herethat people need to understand

(55:50):
the truth, fact and reason.
When you're talking about thosethree things which are the
foundation of justice andjustice, figure out, do some
thinking about.
Who are we trying to serve?
Who is the person that is theproponent or perpetrator of the
truth, the fact and the reasonsthat are being put forward to

(56:13):
you to consider as truth, fact,reason?
Okay.
When we're shaping a storyabout addiction, okay, truth,
fact and fiction, or a truth,fact and reason which both, both
depictions may be, in factcontained some truth, some facts
and some reason, all right.
But who is being served by themanner in which the story is

(56:37):
being told?
Because when I start gettinginto the why of things, instead
of the who, the what, the where,the how, those are things that
are observable.
The why is not observable, andthat's where you know what
there's an all saying about thein the presence of a vacuum, you
know, or in the in this gosh,it's something about when, when

(56:59):
there is a presence of ignoranceor an absence of knowledge,
people will fill in that absencewith oftentimes the most
horrific and irrationalcombination of things, and it's
because we're trying to fill itwith an understanding that makes
sense to us And that you know.

(57:20):
When you start coming up with,you know, the thing that makes
sense to you is well, thathappened to that guy because he
did this and this and this andthis, so, okay, so that makes
sense to you.
Then that that's how you dealwith the brutality of what was
administered.
That's how you're making senseof that.
Well, you know, who does thatserve?

(57:41):
You know, and you know we talkabout the, the racial injustice
and racial disparity.
You know haves or have nots,who's in served in that equation
?
When we talk about politicaldisparity and polarization, who
does that serve?
Who is gaining from thatpolarization, that inability for
us to coalesce as Americans?

(58:03):
Americans, when we talk about,you know, make America great
again.
Okay, who?
excuse me, excuse me, but whodetermined that America was not
great?
Who?
What was their rationale forthat?
Because you are comfortable,because I mean, it's like come
on, man, we are Americans.
We're celebrating Memorial Day.
When we're recording this,memorial Day is coming up.
There are hundreds millions ofpeople that have died for the

(58:28):
rights and liberties of peoplein this country And we're
memorializing them this week Andthen we're going to go out and
absolutely dehumanize our fellowAmericans based on something as
as ridiculously unimportant insome ways.
Whether I call myself a directDemocrat or Republican Okay, i

(58:53):
get that you believe in acertain candidate being.
You know better than that.
That's what a democracy is.
We get to choose, but I do.
I don't see anywhere in theConstitution where it says and
then, by the way, if people donot agree with your choice, you
have the right, of the right tocondemn them, to attack them, to
hit them, and they had to shootthem if you need to.
So there's nothing in there Andnothing in there.

(59:15):
Nothing in there about that Andthat we're going to make
America great again.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
I think you just summed up the whole struggle
right there man, race politicsand power man And I.
Money, money makes a lot ofguys.
I would love it if people paidmore attention to politics, just
to basically learn the how tolook at a candidate's agenda,

(59:45):
look at what he's looking to doReally, and not just be a one or
she voter.
He or she, Yep.
Trying to keep us out of troubleman, right, right, right, i get
Thank you for that And it'slike, but yeah, not being a one
issue voter, but really gettingthe facts or understanding of
the issues at hand.
Because, again, you know, wesee state legislatures doing

(01:00:08):
things to prohibit groups ofpeople from voting, or though
their state legislators arecreating laws.
There's laws and within theConstitution that give us rights
, but states are creating lawsto circumvent the Constitution
and just hindering what shouldbe a normal thing, which should

(01:00:28):
be a normal right, and that'swhere the education, no, the
political education, or at leastunderstanding the politics, to
just say, hey, be current.
I understand that people aregoing to watch their version of
the news, but I think they needto get more familiar with the
process itself.
And when they, i think whenpeople get to the process itself

(01:00:50):
, that's when things can changefor us, you know, equality,
equity they'll see that theprocess, because a lot of people
that are voting these daysthey're voting against their own
.
They're voting against theirown.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
What's best for them, they're voting against
themselves.
Right, right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Exactly, they're voting against the things that
are best for them.
You know, and when we get to abetter understanding that I was
at a we're at a conference thisweek and there was a gentleman
he's I can't remember, oh mygoodness, he is the head of 100
Black men of Madison And hecreated a.
He created a program that didthe basics of politics.

(01:01:31):
I'm going to go in and go andsearch them out and find him and
talk to him and see how, firstfor myself, learn it.
Of course I'm going to share itwith you.
That we know, of course, again,but it was just basics And I
think when we get to the basicsof things, we can get better
understanding of things And then, of course, people will vote
the right way or even have abetter understanding of what
their rights are within acommunity or in the country.

(01:01:56):
I have some other ideas when itcomes to those things And I'll
share them with you off off cast.
But, yeah, i just think of weget to the basics of
understanding the when it comesto politics, everybody get a
basic understanding of theprocedure itself, because, again
, the procedural part of thingsis starting to get out of order
to, because you know, you see,like a gerrymandering and all
these other things that we haddiscussed already, and just

(01:02:17):
getting back to the basics ofthese things, i think that would
be the beginning of somehealing.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
And if you believe out there, if you're thinking
that you know, while our votingsystem is corrupt, in our voting
system you know there's toomuch, you know corruptness going
on.
I challenge you all go talk tosomebody that actually is
involved in the polls, okay,that actually is involved in the
process of how votes arehandled.
Okay, and the reality, when youstart really digging into that.

(01:02:45):
I have friends that actually dothat.
They're the.
We have a small town, butthey're the people that are
there When you first walk in,that you have to prove who you
are, you know, have to have somesort of verification of that.
And then you know usually it'sa driver's license, which you
know all that stuff too.
That gets difficult, and we cantalk about that some other time
, about why that isn'tnecessarily, you know, a fair

(01:03:06):
thing either.
But you know you go throughthat process.
It is impossible impossiblegiven the just the procedures
that are in place on our locallevel for there to be corruption
through the stream.
That would be.
You know something that youcould point to and say see that
happen.
You know, can you find onesiesand twosies and you know tensies
of things, i'm sure.

(01:03:27):
But in the history of Wisconsin.
You know there have been, ithink, like 100 and some votes
that they've been able todetermine that they were.
You know there was some problemwith them, that markings
weren't clear enough or whateveron them or they it wasn't
legible enough to see what wasgoing on.
Their verification was in checkcorrectly.
You know 100, something out ofyou know whatever, how many

(01:03:48):
thousands of votes, so you canpoint it.
So the fact is, yeah, there's,there's some corruption there,
there's some problems there,there's some you know things
that went wrong.
But then to blow it up and bewhat it becomes as a reason to
distrust it all, you know sayingyou know, throw the baby out
with a bathwater.
You know that that saying camefrom the old days when the whole

(01:04:11):
family bathed in the same potof water, because water, heating
up water was a big process, itwas expensive.
All that water, you know youweren't pouring it out of a
faucet in a nice tub, you werecarrying it from, you know
however long, from a pump orsomething, pouring it in there,
then spending all the time toheat it up to the point where it
was, you know, not ice cold.
And then you know people wouldstart taking their baths, you
know, and it would.

(01:04:31):
It didn't start with a baby, itstarted with the dad, and then
it was the mom, and then it wasthe oldest son or the oldest
daughter, and then the next.
So they, they went down thepecking order, you know, and you
took, you took your bath, andthen the baby.
The baby was the last one to bebathed, right, and they saw the
saying became don't throw thebaby out with a bathwater,
because by the time the baby wasbathed, can you met?

(01:04:53):
I mean that water was likeHudson River type of water.
You know we're, we're nottalking.
I mean, why bother at thatpoint?
you know it's generational dirtRight.
I mean, it's a generational crudthat's being washed on the baby
.
Okay, and that is such a greatmetaphor.
It's such a great metaphor forwhat is happening.
You know, you, just so, you'regoing to throw the baby out with

(01:05:14):
the bathwater because by thetime we go through all that
process of how we keep our votessecure, you know, and then
we're going to throw the babyout of the bathwater because the
smallest things, that are themost important things to you
know, safeguard against, whichthey are safeguarding against,
are not worth throwing out, thewhole, the whole thing.
You know, it's just not.

(01:05:36):
And yet it becomes again anotherpolarization, right?
We're going to how many thingswere investigated in this fast
election you know, actually the2020, how many things were
investigated And yet now they're.
And yet now they're.
You know, $787 billion paid outbecause one network ended up
being found out that they were,in fact, voicing opinion, not

(01:05:58):
facts.
They were knowingly lying aboutwhat was doing, but it wasn't
lying because it was justopinion.
So, but the, the inciting ofthat lying, furthered a thing,
not because it was true, becauseit made money, because it made
money.
Yep, it made money folks.
Rupert Murdoch himself admittedit's not about black and white,

(01:06:21):
it's about green And we're nottalking about the green that
grows in the park.
Okay, we're not talking aboutthose nice trees to hide under
when it's 80 degrees in the sun.
No, no, no, no, no, no, it'snot that green, do not deceive
yourself.
That's not factual.
So it's just.
It's amazing to me how wecontinue to let ourselves get

(01:06:43):
distracted and, you know, lose.
Keep our.
We do not keep our eyes on theball, and we have got to.
We're.
We're so sports conscious inthis country, why do we not know
how to keep our eyes on theball?
And the ball is between thehaves and the have nots.
The ball is between how is thisthing being used?
this truth, this justice, thesewonderful things, this
constitutional amendment, thisconstitutional right, how is

(01:07:06):
that ball being used?
Who's it serving?
I'm going off on my tangentagain.
We got to wrap this up, man, soobviously that was some great
points.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
It was just a conversation starter again.
I mean we're just, we're out inthe same thing here, but but you
know, but getting back to thebasics of things, man, you know,
again, understanding, uh, like,uh, people I wouldn't I'm not
going to say that part becauseI'm gonna talk to you about that
offline, but it's just like,again, just understanding the
process, uh, their voting rights, and understand and, and and
fight for the rights of othersto vote.
you know, and and because,again, again, i'm not a

(01:07:38):
proponent of the governmenthaving control over everything,
but I think there are somethings that just should be
without debate the right to vote, no white for a woman to do
what she want to do, uh, and andhealthcare, I think, uh,
otherwise all those people thatdied we have.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
We have devalued their supreme sacrifice.
Folks, every time we take awaythe rights for all people,
because they weren't justfighting for certain factions,
they were fighting for theirfriends and their family, they
were fighting for the country.
So let's memorialize them,please.
Can we just memorialize peoplethrough standing up for what is

(01:08:16):
true, factual, reasonable.
Can we do that?
I know you're gonna do that.
I know you well enough You'regonna do that.
So think about it.
At least folks talk about it.
Talk about it with your friends.
It might get heated, yes, maybe.
Who knows?
People are passionate.
We are emotional beings.
I get it.
Believe me So.
But truth fact reason.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
So, yes, and again it's going to take some patience
to get to that like the truth,the fact and the reason.
Right, it's going to take somepatience to get there because,
again, people are so impatient.
It's just like, uh, we glossover things, we uh don't get to
the harder to matter the thingsAnd, of course, uh, in our
busyness of our world, thehearts of people wax cold And
that makes us, uh, you know,we're not swift to listen and

(01:09:01):
slow to speak anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
All right, man, are we done?
I mean, we're not done.
Obviously we're not done.
What am I talking about?
We can do this all day.
All right, we could, in fact.
And you got a life to get, yougot a sermon, you got to get
ready, man, i have a body that Ineed to get into a chase lounge
somewhere.
I just enjoy this nice day.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
That's what I need to do.
It's my niece's birthday, sowe're going to.
I'm going to do.
I've been studying allthroughout the week, but it's
like a fourth of a star puttingthings in order today and, uh,
just go and celebrate her realfast, all right, and but yeah,
man, that's a they have a greatday.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
Brother, you too.
Folks You've been listening toframe of reference coming
together.
I'm Raul LaBrescia.
This guy is what's your name.
Again, i forget who you are.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
I don't know Why can't I remember you?

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
I can't remember you, i can't remember you, i can't.
And we've been talking for howmany weeks now?
I just, i just keep it.
I'm a confused guy.
What can I say?
So thanks for listening to this, folks.
We'll be in tune in next week.
I'm not sure what we're goingto talk about yet.
Uh, we haven't even talkedabout that, so color blue.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
Can we talk about the color blue?
I don't know How about this?
You know we've been talkingabout justice.
You know we talk about thecourts, the court system and the
implementation of justice.
There we go, it's just toimplement it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Oh, there, there, there we go.
We're going to talk.
I'm going to talk about myspeeding tickets.
That's what I'm going to talkabout.
That's my experience.
So all right, folks, thanks forlistening.
We'll see you next week.