July 21, 2023 • 40 mins
Ever wondered how the phrase 'Black Lives Matter' came to be one of the most potent rallying cries of the 21st century? This week Antowan and I dove into the convoluted labyrinth of racial injustice in America, from the tragic death of Trayvon Martin that fueled the birth of this movement, to the systemic and intentional targeting of black people. Engaging in this crucial conversation, we not only scrutinize the impact of state-sanctioned violence on black lives but also reflect on our personal experiences surrounding racial equality.
While we delve into the progression of the Black Lives Matter movement, we also underscore the importance of understanding its roots and response. It's not just a cry against police brutality, but it's also a demand for change, pushing for a society that values black lives equally. Strategies like political action, letter writing, campaigns, and nonviolent protests are paving the way, but it’s essential to consider the potential misconceptions of the movement's message and the challenges that come with accepting racial inequality.
Finally, we explore how the phrase 'Black Lives Matter' intertwines with the chess game of life and how the need to feel superior can lead to detriment. We revisit the example of Trayvon Martin and the Florida Stand Your Ground Law, demonstrating how laws have enabled state-sanctioned violence since the 1600s. The movement is not just about highlighting the systemic and intentional targeting of black people, but about dismantling these oppressive systems. Join us, as we unpack these complexities and strive to understand why it's more important now than ever to say, loud and clear, Black Lives Matter.
Thanks for listening. Please check out our website at www.forsauk.com to hear great conversations on topics that need to be talked about. In these times of intense polarization we all need to find time to expand our Frame of Reference.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Let's have it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
And so, my friend Antoine, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm doing great, raul .
How about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You know it's a day.
It's been great to have thisweather in Wisconsin.
It's hot but not humid.
I'm liking that we don't haveforest fires.
We don't write down the streetfrom us.
We don't have flooding.
We haven't gotten any rainreally noticeably down here.
I don't know if you're gettingthat up in Green Bay Area or not
(00:45):
.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yes, what was it?
Today is Tuesday.
I believe it was Sunday.
It was raining, Then yesterdayit was just heat.
We reached 91 here in the GreenBay Howard area.
Yeah, man.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Wow, humid too.
I mean, with Green Bay you'vegot water right there, so it's
kind of hard to avoid humid,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Oh yeah, the AC was cranking early man.
We tried to get ahead of it,but yeah, it was one of those
days where you just stay in thehouse, man, you minimize your
movements best you can and staycool.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Do you and your wife have thermostat wars?
I mean, I don't know if that'sa thing with my wife and I only,
but I'm like always wanting topush it down, she's always
wanted to push it up.
You know she's beingconservatorious and I'm like I'm
hot, I'm hot, so we fight.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We don't have those wars.
We have an AC in the bedroomand one in the living room.
So, ok, you know like we'llcrank them both and then the
whole house is, the whole placeis just cooled off and we get it
around, like yesterday we werejust kept it at 70.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
OK, and it was good.
Oh man, it's 70.
That I fight for 74.
You know, but I guess I'm just.
I'm like Dr Freeze, though,around our house.
I just, you know, all I have todo is think about sweating and
it comes down.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And now today, you know, we just got the windows
open, just letting the breezecome in.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, yeah, we're supposed to get some rain, I
think tonight and tomorrow, butany who?
Well, you know.
So we've been talking kind ofaround the bush for a while now,
and when I say the bush, I meana topic that I, you know.
I'm trying to figure out whatmade it so polarized.
(02:28):
But, folks, I'm going to tellyou right now, if you are not
wanting to think about things atall, if it's just, you know
you're, this is going to be tooemotionally charged for you.
I'm warning you right now.
The topic today is Black LivesMatter and that phrase alone.
I would be willing to bet thereare people that hear that
phrase alone and they go.
(02:50):
Oh, and I want to say, just asa guy that grew up on the south
side of Milwaukee in a communitycalled Bay View, where I don't
know, I don't even know honestly, antoine, if there were Black
people who lived in Bay View atthat time we're talking the 60s
and 70s, you know.
I mean, we had a Blackprincipal.
(03:12):
That was.
I thought that was really cool.
When I was a junior in highschool, we had the first female
Black principal in all ofMilwaukee.
Wow, yeah, sarah Scott came inAll right, and she was a fine
lady.
I'll tell you that she struckme as somebody that Mrs Scott
was just super nice.
But you did not want to crossher.
(03:33):
You knew that right away.
Mrs Scott was not going tocater to fools.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
So that was.
I take it, it was just a greaton her part, a great
accomplishment to even be theprincipal of that in that school
in that area at that time.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So I applaud her.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
We're talking 1977.
So the country just celebratedit's Bicentennial.
And here we are at Bay ViewHigh School, which is boy Bay
View High School.
We called it the Castle on theHill because it's that old style
Brick.
Looks very castle-esque withthe I forget what they're called
(04:13):
the embankment not embankments,but almost embattlements on the
top, the ridges that you see ina lot of castles, the fortified
people I expect people withbows and arrows behind them at
some time, or big pots of oilthat they could dump on us if we
misbehaved.
But so I say that as abackground to also say I mean
(04:37):
I've voted Republican in a lotof elections.
I've voted Democrat in someelections.
I am a dreaded independentvoter.
I tend to vote for character.
And I say that all because I'mcoming to this discussion as a
guy that's had to do a lot ofthinking of his own.
And if you are inclined to justthink, when you hear the term
(05:01):
Black Lives Matter, that it'sgoing to be an overly polarized,
politicized talk, I want toremind you of something, folks
Black Lives Matter has amovement.
It does not say only BlackLives Matter.
It does not say white livesdon't matter.
It does not say Black LivesMatter more, and I would be
(05:23):
willing to bet dollars to donuts, that when a lot of white
people hear the phrase or aboutthe movement Black Lives Matter,
they think that it means one ofthose other things.
They feel like it means one ofthose other things Because if
they don't, I don't know why.
More often than not, theresponse you hear from my family
(05:44):
, my family, it's well, you know, all lives matter and I think,
well, of course, all livesmatter.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You know what I'm saying to that when people say
all lives matter, they say ifall lives really mattered we
wouldn't have to say Black LivesMatter.
Because, remember, the wholepremise or the whole how the
movement even started was behindthe Trayvon Martin murder when
George Zimmerman walked off froma killing that kid, and that
(06:11):
was the origin.
And, like you, were talkingabout the first Black female
principal at the school at thattime, three courageous Black
women started this organizationand then it just started to grow
from there and it was justamazing.
The purpose of it was to justreally put a focus on social,
racial, economic injustices,police brutality and those
(06:35):
things.
Now, I agree with the messaging100%.
I only think I guess I can sayI don't agree with when it comes
to Black Lives Matter is thedefunding of the police part.
I think the police need moreresources, not necessarily guns,
but they need more training,they need more help when they're
(06:56):
engaging someone with mentaldisabilities and things like
that.
But otherwise I agree with ittotally.
Well, you know funny story here.
I'm sorry, that's all right.
Of course I'm a pastor of aministry and when Black Lives
Matter came to Baraboo there wasa sort of a gathering right at
(07:19):
the courthouse.
There I was in full support, mywife and I, and then, of course,
we did the walk with them downby the police station and back
to the courthouse.
And then, of course, a fewmembers of my church, three
white women, and they basicallyjumped all in my face talking
(07:41):
about me.
Marching with a Black LivesMatter is the equivalent to them
marching with the Klan.
And then I was like do y'alleven understand or know what
this movement is even about?
Apparently not, and that iskind of what you were saying
earlier.
When people just hear BlackLives Matter they cringe.
But if you just take a momentto really read and understand
(08:04):
what the movement is all about,maybe your tensions, their
tensions, should be lowered.
You know it should becausesimply all you're doing is just
speaking out against things thatwe see and know are happening
today and see like a.
You know I say this a lot, butit's like when you point out an
(08:25):
issue you become the problem.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
And that's where you know, it's always been.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
You know, of course, like I said, remember, in a
previous podcast I said thecountry is tired of hearing the
Black man cry.
You know it's like now whatthey complaining about this.
They're complaining about thatthese three young ladies here.
They formed this movement andit's spread across the country.
It started, like I said, in2013 after the Trayvon Martin
(08:53):
murder, but it really came tolight in 14 when Mike Brown was
murdered in Ferguson, missouri.
But not only did his murder,you know, by that police officer
, but it also spotlighted awhole bunch of years of
injustice People spending, youknow, year, 18 months, in jail
for a hundred dollar ticket.
(09:14):
They could not pay.
And then, of course, you know,and it's just, this movement is,
to me, is very simple it's acivil rights movement.
You know, it's just what theyused to do back when.
You know, you point out someinjustices and you upset some
people.
Now, and of course, black LivesMatter, in my opinion, has been
(09:37):
demonized.
You know, of course, you lookacross the country when you see
these gatherings, some of thembecome turned into altercations
and you have to ask who made thefirst push, because when you
got a hundred people saying, hey, we're tired of being treated
the way we're being treated.
And you got a police force,it's just going to have a pen
(10:01):
agitation, that's just.
It's just an uncalled for.
And so that's why you know, inaddition to you know, course
those gatherings, then of coursethe police, then of course a
push comes and then a shove, andthen of course there is the
bull rush, so to speak.
And then you know and it'sfunny, because right now, 19
cities are paying out over $80million to these people because
(10:25):
of what they've done, likepeople got shot in the face with
those non-lethal beanbag gunsand tear gas and stuff like that
, just simply for gathering.
And I don't, in my opinion,again, I don't believe that
people within these Black LivesMatter gatherings were agitators
(10:46):
.
I just don't believe that.
I mean, but everyone's going tohave their own opinion but
because all you see is the endresult, you know, you see people
gathering, then you see askirmish, or you see a brawl,
you see what you see on TV andit could the narrative could be
changed a million different ways.
And then, of course, withinthese gatherings, what was
(11:09):
amazing is it started to pointout how people, for some reason,
when there was going to be aBlack Lives Matter gathering.
Some mysterious way, pallets ofbricks would show up.
It's like it just again.
It's like a.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Palettes of bricks.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It's just, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So they could be thrown at people, or is that the
?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
It's just thrown into again.
It was the whole narrative wasto create that all Black people
or these gatherings createviolence and damage and things
like that.
I remember the Black LivesMatter rally in Madison.
It was three white girls getarrested for busting windows up
out of capital, and it's justagain.
It's.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Well, yeah, when the riots happened for that too.
You have video of people beingcovered by the local news
channels, and there's video ofpeople like white guys all going
into stores and pulling thestuff out of the stores.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
It's like, but again it all falls under the name.
It falls under Black LivesMatter, and again in every
movement in every situation.
Every movement, there's going tobe people there that may not be
there for specifically for thecause, and those things have
(12:28):
happened.
But again, I stand by themessaging, the methodology and
some instances I would probablyeven go in a little more
peaceful.
But it's just like I said, Iagree 100% with the message and
the methodology could probablyuse some work, but for the most
(12:49):
part the message is plain andsimple.
You know, be fair, be right,treat people right, no voting
rights.
You know the world is aware ofthe, of the inequality, and
again people don't want toaddress it because again you
point out an issue, you becomethe problem.
And so now what we're seeing?
(13:09):
People want to take away theissue by erasing history, and
then of course they'll say, well, what problem.
And so that's where we are.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I remember hearing an activist or someone involved in
the movement, I forget, severalyears ago and it hadn't really
clicked for me until I heard hersay the reason that you have to
support, or we should support,black Lives Matter is because
until Black Lives Matter, nolife will matter.
(13:41):
And I thought that was reallyprofound from the standpoint of
we do have this sort of you know, we talk about being in a
racial soup.
You know, I have a friend thattalks about you know, we, we
want to say we're not racistsbecause we don't want to as
white people.
I don't want to admit that I'mbad in a racist.
(14:05):
I'll say I'm not racist.
I have friends that are, thatare Black.
I mean, antoine and I do thispodcast together.
You know I'm not a racist andthe reality is that all of us
are like baked in a racistracial slew.
You know, I mean, there's asoup going on here and there are
(14:26):
things that happen to usunconsciously, consciously in
our biases, that make it reallyreally, really difficult to
understand, even intellectually,why we would have an emotional
reaction to something like BlackLives Matter by immediately
(14:46):
going to an argument of, well,all lives matter.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Okay, and then of course we have blue lives matter
, right, and you know, and ofcourse that was in opposition or
in protest and I stand behindthe police and again it's like I
back the badge too, I mean whenthings are right.
But you know, it is just againlike I said earlier, I love the
messaging, everything except forthe defund, the police part,
(15:13):
right, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
On even the defund police part.
You know I mean what.
What that came out of wasn'tjust defund the police because
the police are mean, or, youknow, the police are brutal.
We want to see them not have asmuch money.
There's nothing like that.
The message was, the thinkingwas, let's take some of that
money that we're spending onpolice and instead directed
towards community services.
(15:36):
You've already spoken about it,you know, and most a lot of
police officers I know will talkabout how nowadays they're
they're having to take care ofso many different things in
terms of human behavior andhuman circumstances and
situations that they're just notequipped for.
And a lot of them have to dowith psychological care.
(15:56):
They have to do, you know, withthings that are negotiating
situations, that they're nottrained therapists, they're not
trained social workers Right,they don't have the, the toolkit
there to deal with that stuff,you know.
And then you're looking ateducation, you know, looking at,
you know we're looking more andmore for ways to make the
(16:17):
school systems even moredisparate than they already are,
because we don't want our kidsgoing to one of those bad, you
know, bad, black inner cityschools where the education is
just horrible.
Okay, let's, I don't get it.
So it's horrible, so we shouldmake it more horrible.
Is that what we're sayingultimately?
Because that's all you're goingto do by defunding that.
(16:39):
So you know, the plain, simplething is it's not about
defunding as much as it isprioritizing funding for things
that will really, at the end ofthe day, provide much more
return on the investment,because otherwise we're going to
catch up all the time.
We can fund more police, asyou're saying there's.
There's certainly a need forbetter trained police, more
(17:03):
police in a lot of areas, but itcan't just be about that.
It's also got to be about letif we could.
And then I think a lot ofpolice officers would say if we
could do things in our societyto eliminate more and more of
the need for police, they'd beall for that, but they just if
we could do something todecrease crime, if we could do
(17:25):
things to decrease violence,they're all about doing that.
So that's ultimately the.
I think the message of BlackLives Matter is let's get at the
systemic things going on andsee if we can't address them.
We spend our money, we choose tospend our money and all kinds
of things, but maybe there'ssome better ways to spend it
here.
(17:45):
You know, do you invest in a401k or do you invest in your
IRA?
Well, which one has the betterreturn, I don't know, depends on
the market.
Well, the market right nowfocuses the US.
The market right now is ourcities.
You know our towns, our innercities that are struggling
because we're not meeting theneeds in the most effective ways
(18:09):
.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Exactly, and that's what, again, what I love about
the movement, you know, ofcourse, because it's pointing
out the systemic and intentionaltargeting of certain
communities.
I believe you know that thedemise of some people and
communities are deliberate andintentional.
It's just that, just from whatI see.
And, of course, the way thingsare going now within our
(18:33):
national government, and again,actions have become bolder and
intentions have been made evenclearer.
And, of course, even in thewhen it comes to voting, you
know, just trying to trying totake a, just trying to oppress
the vote, trying to sabotage thevote, trying to the right to
(18:54):
vote, I should say you know thatthese things are intentional
and these things are no, this islike state sanctioned violence
against people of color, youknow, and, of course, and and so
this organization, they'repointing this thing out and, you
know, in the course, again,they're being demonized.
There's a lot of disinformation.
(19:15):
People haven't even, probablyeven went to their website to
even look and see what they'reabout.
But yet you just hate when youhear black lives matter, you
know, and it's just a, go andsee what it's about first.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, I went to encyclopedia Britannica,
Britannica online so.
I couldn't think of anythingmore white than encyclopedia
Britannica, you know, because ifthat, if that isn't a stagy,
you know, erudite place forknowledge, they had Pull this up
here quick.
They had an interesting notehere that the they said the
(19:48):
black lives mission and themovement has many goals.
Blm activists seek to drawattention to the many ways in
which black people are treatedunfairly in society and the ways
in which institutions, laws andpolicies help to perpetuate
that unfairness.
The movement has fought racismThrough such means as political
(20:09):
action, letter writing,campaigns and campaigns and
nonviolent protests.
Blm seeks to combat policebrutality, the overpolicing of
minority neighborhoods and theabuses committed by for-profit
Jails.
Oh, that's a good topic forprofit.
Profit jails it's efforts haveincluded calls for better
(20:30):
training for police and greateraccountability for police
misconduct police.
Blm activists have also calledfor Defunding the police, that
is, reducing police departmentbudgets and investing the freed
up funds and community socialservices, such as mental health
and conflict resolution programs.
Blm activists have worked onvoter registration and get out
(20:52):
the vote campaigns in blackcommunities.
In addition, blm programs havecelebrated black artists and
writers.
So Where's the bad in all ofthat?
Exactly Where's the bad, youknow, and I guess the thing I
always hear, or often hear fromfolks too, is the minute you
(21:12):
talk about that it's like well,white people would like that too
.
Why can't we have that forwhite people too?
And my answer is what do youmean?
We don't?
I we're?
When did we not have that stuff?
Because I think it's available.
You just have to look for it.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, I think you know, I think If, again, if
people really just got past thetitle and looked at the message,
a lot of a low-income Whitepeople will realize they're in
the same exact boat.
Not only that, I would love theopportunity In one day the Lord
willing, I'll have one where wecan address Low-income white
(21:50):
people and and just talk aboutthe history, talk and talk
face-to-face about some things,and even just because the goal
would be to let them know thatthey're in the same boat as we
are.
And the sad part is they don'trealize that they're being used
as pawns in a game.
You know, like the Trumps andthe what's the senator of this?
Ron Johnson's and the Tedcruises, those guys are never
(22:15):
gonna lift a muscle or a fingerin a fight, but they provoke and
agitate low-income white peopleinto Some.
They got people ready for acivil war.
They're not.
And they don't realize thatthey are being pawns played in a
game.
They don't realize that thevery people that they're voting
for want to take away their,their social security, their
(22:36):
grandmother social security.
Basically, they've voting toget their Grandmother with
pre-existing diabetes.
They want to.
They want to get her leg cutoff because they want to vote
again because again, this racialdivide, the hate, has always
been here and of course now isis is getting closer and closer
to being called what it is.
(22:56):
But you know, people get behinda certain message, but you know
what's behind that message andthat's where you know the veil
has to be torn and say, hey, doyou realize and see that?
You know you're fightingagainst yourself.
You're fighting against you.
Fighting against yourself, youknow, because if you, if you're
not making X amount of dollars ayear, you're in the same boat,
(23:19):
and so to be able to have thatconversation and really just
drive that home To some people,hopefully they get it and see it
and be like wow, because againyou could take.
You know, because of theunderlined Politics, it's all
about race, power and money.
That's it.
And of course the people at thetop are trying to keep power.
(23:41):
They're gonna agitate and Dowhatever they can to get money
from these people and then theywant to keep races of people
down.
That's that's what the wholegame is about.
And they're just low-incomewhite people.
Just need to understand.
They're being used, you know.
And of course, us being men ofGod, you know again, the Bible
(24:03):
says Unbalanced scales are anabomination to the Lord.
They don't understand.
They're helping in the part oftrying to tip the scales In the
school boards, they're on thecity and state legislatures.
They're, they're, they saythey're Christian, but obviously
I don't know if they read theirBibles Because they wouldn't
know that.
Hey, what they're doing iswrong and of course you know
(24:26):
it's just, it's sad.
Again, that's what we do, thispodcast, raul, just, uh, hey,
let's get to know each other,right.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Right, well, you know , and when I can't figure you
out, I think a lot of that sortof you know talking about having
pawns and playing the chessgame so that your pawns in a
chess game, the pawns usuallyare sacrificed pretty regularly.
You know they're sacrificedeither to block a more important
piece, you know.
(24:57):
So if you, you know I can blockmy king from being in check by
throwing a palm pawn right infront of it, and then the only
way to, you know, capture thatpawn, you're gonna end up, you
know, losing the piece thatcaptures it.
So you know it really is achess game that's going on A lot
of January 6th.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, look atthat.
(25:18):
And then you know we, we turnover, you know hundreds of
thousands of hours worth offootage and of course, they can
pick out stuff where, oh, theseguys were just peacefully
visiting.
Look they're.
They're looking at thepaintings and the hallways.
You know there was nothingviolent going on there, so
anything.
Well, I don't like that.
You know what are we thinkinghere?
But then you know thefundamentally I think a lot of
(25:41):
this stuff just points to we allwant to feel better.
You know we want to feel betterabout our lot in life, and
oftentimes to our, to ourdetriment.
We're led to believe by peoplethat the way to feel better
about yourself is to either takeaway from someone else or to
(26:02):
feel better than someone else.
So, you know, you end up with asituation where, yeah, poor
white people are gettingutilized as something, a tool to
protect bigger, more powerfulpieces on the chessboard.
And the reality is that thosepawns you know whether you're
(26:26):
the black pawns or the whitepawns, we're all being used to
protect the more importantpieces.
So you know why.
Why do we want to fight amongstthe pawns?
You know what?
Why can't it be both?
Then you know, when I say blacklives matter, why can't we say,
(26:46):
yeah, black lives do matter.
You're right, they do matterand we need to do something
about that.
You know white lives matter too.
Yes, of course they matter, butyou know, that's something that,
if we can't get, and stay onthe fact that well is what
happened to Trayvon Martin Iswhat happened to him?
Is that okay?
Is what happened to GeorgeFloyd?
(27:06):
Is it okay?
Well, I'd like to see no, no,no, just please answer that
question.
Is that okay?
Is that all right with you thatTrayvon Martin is a 16-year-old
kid walking through aneighborhood.
Some guy sees him and thinks helooks quote-unquote suspicious,
calls the police, wants thepolice to come.
The police tell himspecifically do not engage the
(27:28):
kid.
Will be there right away.
He engages the kid and ends upgetting into an argument with
him.
We don't know what the argumentwas like or what it was about.
Unfortunately there weren't abunch of phones cell phones
around like there were withGeorge Floyd where he could
actually record what was goingon, but it ended up with Trayvon
Martin being killed and youknow then, eventually, after a
(27:51):
bunch of protesting, who's Iforget the white guy's name what
was it?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
that George Zimmerman .
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Zimmerman.
So Zimmerman gets finally triedfor second-degree murder and
then is acquitted of it becauseof the Florida Stand your Ground
law, which was a-.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
And that's what I was talking about, raul, that
state-sanctioned violence that'sallowed, because I can't
remember what state it isFlorida.
It was all about protesting,right, they would know the Black
Lives Matter were in that townprotesting and the city passed a
law saying if the residents hadthe right to shoot people
walking on their sidewalk Well,and we have to Google that and
(28:31):
have that information for thenext time.
But it was like I can'tremember what city I almost want
to say it was somewhere inNorth South Carolina or
something but they wereprotesting there in the city, or
the state passed a law sayingif these protesters walked on
your property, as a property,only you had the right to shoot
them, right, well, gosh back inthe 1600s they had laws on the
(28:51):
books that were saying if aBlack man was out walking the
sidewalk after nine o'clock hecould be arrested, you know, for
walking the sidewalk after nineo'clock.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Why is this so prevalent?
Well, because it's historical.
There's a lot of precedence forit.
I don't mean to laugh becauseit's not funny.
It's just look, wake up, Lookat it.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
And again all this organization does Black Lives
Matter.
They point these things outbecause again you see the
systematic and intentionaltargeting of a group of people
to be demised, to be killed, tobe wiped off the face of the
earth, to just be.
They want I don't know what,just to be a lower class citizen
, just to be.
You know, they want toreinforce that three-fourths of
(29:37):
a man that's in the Constitutionby taking away rights and just
a Again.
And then, of course, and againit's like, even with the
violence, you know, again thestates know these things are
happening, like the when thepeople that were in Michigan,
(29:58):
they were plotting to kill thatfemale governor up there.
Yeah, one of the sheriffs wasactually rocking with the guys.
You know, and it just it justagain you know you got people in
high places that mean harm.
You know it's like us beinglike, say, francis, again Black
(30:19):
Lives Matter point these thingsout because again these things,
like you look at the Tennessee'sand the Georgia's and
especially the Texas right, youlook at places like that the
state is aware of these thingsand their passing laws to make
it so where you can shoot aperson and walk away scot-free.
You know, going on Florida.
(30:42):
You don't have to have a, youcan just carry a gun.
You just carry a gun.
And then, of course, youcombine that with the stand your
ground law.
You, you accidentally bumpedinto somebody at the gas station
.
They can kill you just Just ona whim.
And and that's again thesestates.
They are deliberately andintently passing laws to make it
(31:04):
easier to kill people of colorand and and and then the course
of discriminatory.
Discriminatory factor is usbeing a Black organization, or
even though we cater more toCaucasian or white people.
However, you know, just becauseour faces and our names are on
(31:25):
the documents, we have a veryhard time raising funds.
You know, in the question, yougo to these various
organizations and you say, hey,we're trying to do this event,
we understand that y'all givegrants.
And then it's always a twistand a turn.
You know, talking with a oneowner, a white owner, she was
(31:45):
like, oh yeah, I get this moneyfrom the organization every year
and of course, and it's like wego to get it the funds aren't
available.
It's like a yeah, and it's justpeople that mean harm,
unfortunately, sit in powerfulseats, and that's how the
discriminatory and thesystematic things continue to
take place and just a blacklives matter.
(32:07):
Point these things out.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
You, you pointed out, if the three-fifths compromise
that, that it to, I guess, tounderscore how deeply this stuff
goes.
Folks.
You know, and this is, this isjust history.
Okay, the three-fifthscompromises a compromise is
established that a slave wouldbe counted as three-fifths of a
(32:31):
person when taking a census Of astate's overall population.
It was reached during the 1787constitutional convention in
Philadelphia, pennsylvania, andbasically that all came to
voting, that the the members ofHouse of Representatives, if
it's the same today, it'sdetermined each state has a
(32:54):
certain number ofrepresentatives based on how
many people live in their state.
Well, of course, theagricultural states in the South
largely Didn't have as manywhite people Living there
because they they had theselarge plantations right, lots of
land.
They weren't urbanized likenorthern areas were.
So that I say that because itwas Then, and now there are
(33:17):
voting regulatory, there are,you know, laws, there are power
plays in play in all of thisthat are Predicated on the same
basis that that black peoplejust don't count as much.
So when you have a movementlike black lives matter, it's
like no, no, no, no, no, blacklives don't count that much,
(33:38):
they're only three-fifths.
It's like it's somewhere deepin our, our psyche and I want to
point out one thing.
I know we're running out oftime and time, but kind of God,
darn it.
One of the things that keepshappening when you do this, when
you talk about things likeblack lives matters, is that
white people get Uncomfortableand we start thinking I didn't
have any slaves, I didn't doanything, I'm not a racist.
(34:00):
It all becomes about likesaving face, you know.
It becomes like I, I.
I don't know why you're tryingto make me feel bad about
something I didn't have anythingto do with, and I have to say I
was there too at one point.
I got uncomfortable.
I've used those same argumentsin my own head and then I had to
(34:20):
sit down with God One day andsay you know, god, this isn't
gonna be an ongoing problem withme.
I can tell, so please help mefind a way.
And you know God is good, god isgracious, god is the God of
love and understanding and hehas shown me Over the past years
(34:41):
I guess I'd say it has been aprocess over the past couple of
years really that I've startedto wake up.
It's okay to feel uncomfortable, it's okay to not feel good
about this, and I'm not gonnanot feel good because I'm a
white person.
I'm gonna not feel good becauseI'm a person and it's not good
(35:01):
for other people to be treatedlike this.
It's not good for us to sitback and let Jewish people be
treated the way they were duringthe Holocaust in Germany, when
a lot of white folks just stoodback and said I'm not gonna get
involved it.
You know they're killing thoseguys and I know that.
You know it doesn't seem right,but I'm not gonna get involved.
I got too much, I can losemyself.
(35:23):
It's the same when you know anyGroup of people is being
persecuted because of who theyare foundationally.
That's wrong and that shouldmake us feel bad as human beings
.
That should make us feel bad Ifwe don't do anything about it.
So I get it if you're feelingbad because black lives matter
makes you just kind of feel it'snot fair that they're making me
(35:46):
feel bad for things.
No, they're not making you feelbad.
I would swear to God, it's theHoly Spirit Convicting you of
feeling bad because we are notdoing what God calls us to do.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
And in a course, when you've mentioned, like black
lives matter and you talk aboutthese racial, social, economic
Inequalities, you know, course,the first thing now is the
reverse racism.
You know it's a black livesmatter as anti-white, and and
it's all.
This is just like stop, youknow, really, just take a few
minutes to listen to the messageand again, you know, like, I
(36:20):
know I was a preaching this acouple weeks ago, but it's like,
right before our very eyes, analternate reality has formed,
and and and you can't, no matterwhat evidence, no matter what
facts, evidence you put in frontof them, nope, it didn't happen
.
No, I don't believe it.
And that's where we are.
(36:41):
And you know, the Bible sayslike God be true and every man a
liar right, and that's the samein the church.
I was watching this special onAmazon Prime called white savior
, something about it's calledwhite savior, history of
American church or something,and it was talking about how you
(37:03):
know, churches, racism, church,basically, is still the root of
racism.
Remember, I was telling you likemy problem is with the church,
with all this white and blackstuff.
Yeah, it starts in the churchand and and it's still there
because you know like and it wasthe special, it was just a part
of pointed out some amazingpoints About.
Even they use this.
(37:23):
Just I'll make the funny partof it.
It's like a the worship youknow it should know no,
stereotypically, you go to awhite church is huh and in and
out, and then you go to a blackchurch is yelling and screaming
this hours long, and but theywere so much more fun.
I'm almost done and it's like,for whatever reason, it's like
the I can't remember the exactwording, but it was like it was
(37:46):
almost as if these things areintentional to keep others away
from One church or the other.
Yeah, I'm gonna do exactly whatI know you don't like, right,
and that's where.
But yeah, I know we're out oftime here, man, but yes, I'd
love to continue this next week.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, yeah, we got more to talk about and and
hopefully, you know, if you'refeeling bad, praise God.
You know, if you're, if you'refeeling like let's just kind of
just unsettling, praise God,because when we're unsettled,
that's when we can be cultivated.
You know, you don't, you don'tgrow anything and ground that's
just packed tight, you don't?
(38:22):
It just doesn't grow things.
You got to loosen up the soil.
So if you're, if your soil isfeeling loosened up, if you're
feeling like you know there'sweeds that you know, oh gosh, I
gotta pick some more weeds out.
Good, good, it's all right.
There's water, there's sun,there's ways to deal with all
that.
But Don't, please don't, turnthis into something other than
(38:46):
what it is is a call to thinkabout it.
We're just a black guy and awhite guy trying to figure it
out ourselves, and we just knowthat the way things are are not
good enough.
We can do so.
This country can and is greatand it needs to do better.
We just need to do so all thereis to do.
So let's do better.
(39:07):
You're not gonna do better,that's for sure.
Right?
You just said they're going.
Oh, dude, what are you?
What are you drinking?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
It's a great point, man, and you know, and it's uh
Like you said, I love what yousaid, though it's just like a
hate the Lord chest, as in thosewhom he loves.
So, you know, if you getreceiving some conviction,
receive it and just learn fromit and ask for what can I do
next?
Speaker 2 (39:36):
So the next time, yeah, man.
Let's make sure, though, youdon't have a bear's shirt on,
okay, cuz that's that's reasonfor war, right there?
I mean sorry, man, you're youreally.
What are you doing, dude?
You're just asking for troubleup there in backer land.
So, but okay, I get your bold,I'll give you that.
You're bold, you're courageous.
(39:56):
So yeah, antoine, you take careman.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Okay, I'll see you, man, Thank you those we've been
listening.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Thanks for listening to frame of reference coming
together.
We'll be with you next week orsometime soon and you know,
please, if you've got anycomments, go to www for sock
calm and write your comments andTry to try to make them
Comments that we can all thinkabout.
Okay, okay, take care folks.
Bye.
Let's have it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
And so, my friend Antoine, how you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm doing great, raul .
How about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You know it's a day.
It's been great to have thisweather in Wisconsin.
It's hot but not humid.
I'm liking that we don't haveforest fires.
We don't write down the streetfrom us.
We don't have flooding.
We haven't gotten any rainreally noticeably down here.
I don't know if you're gettingthat up in Green Bay Area or not
(00:45):
.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yes, what was it?
Today is Tuesday.
I believe it was Sunday.
It was raining, Then yesterdayit was just heat.
We reached 91 here in the GreenBay Howard area.
Yeah, man.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Wow, humid too.
I mean, with Green Bay you'vegot water right there, so it's
kind of hard to avoid humid,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Oh yeah, the AC was cranking early man.
We tried to get ahead of it,but yeah, it was one of those
days where you just stay in thehouse, man, you minimize your
movements best you can and staycool.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Do you and your wife have thermostat wars?
I mean, I don't know if that'sa thing with my wife and I only,
but I'm like always wanting topush it down, she's always
wanted to push it up.
You know she's beingconservatorious and I'm like I'm
hot, I'm hot, so we fight.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We don't have those wars.
We have an AC in the bedroomand one in the living room.
So, ok, you know like we'llcrank them both and then the
whole house is, the whole placeis just cooled off and we get it
around, like yesterday we werejust kept it at 70.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
OK, and it was good.
Oh man, it's 70.
That I fight for 74.
You know, but I guess I'm just.
I'm like Dr Freeze, though,around our house.
I just, you know, all I have todo is think about sweating and
it comes down.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
And now today, you know, we just got the windows
open, just letting the breezecome in.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yeah, yeah, we're supposed to get some rain, I
think tonight and tomorrow, butany who?
Well, you know.
So we've been talking kind ofaround the bush for a while now,
and when I say the bush, I meana topic that I, you know.
I'm trying to figure out whatmade it so polarized.
(02:28):
But, folks, I'm going to tellyou right now, if you are not
wanting to think about things atall, if it's just, you know
you're, this is going to be tooemotionally charged for you.
I'm warning you right now.
The topic today is Black LivesMatter and that phrase alone.
I would be willing to bet thereare people that hear that
phrase alone and they go.
(02:50):
Oh, and I want to say, just asa guy that grew up on the south
side of Milwaukee in a communitycalled Bay View, where I don't
know, I don't even know honestly, antoine, if there were Black
people who lived in Bay View atthat time we're talking the 60s
and 70s, you know.
I mean, we had a Blackprincipal.
(03:12):
That was.
I thought that was really cool.
When I was a junior in highschool, we had the first female
Black principal in all ofMilwaukee.
Wow, yeah, sarah Scott came inAll right, and she was a fine
lady.
I'll tell you that she struckme as somebody that Mrs Scott
was just super nice.
But you did not want to crossher.
(03:33):
You knew that right away.
Mrs Scott was not going tocater to fools.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
So that was.
I take it, it was just a greaton her part, a great
accomplishment to even be theprincipal of that in that school
in that area at that time.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So I applaud her.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
We're talking 1977.
So the country just celebratedit's Bicentennial.
And here we are at Bay ViewHigh School, which is boy Bay
View High School.
We called it the Castle on theHill because it's that old style
Brick.
Looks very castle-esque withthe I forget what they're called
(04:13):
the embankment not embankments,but almost embattlements on the
top, the ridges that you see ina lot of castles, the fortified
people I expect people withbows and arrows behind them at
some time, or big pots of oilthat they could dump on us if we
misbehaved.
But so I say that as abackground to also say I mean
(04:37):
I've voted Republican in a lotof elections.
I've voted Democrat in someelections.
I am a dreaded independentvoter.
I tend to vote for character.
And I say that all because I'mcoming to this discussion as a
guy that's had to do a lot ofthinking of his own.
And if you are inclined to justthink, when you hear the term
(05:01):
Black Lives Matter, that it'sgoing to be an overly polarized,
politicized talk, I want toremind you of something, folks
Black Lives Matter has amovement.
It does not say only BlackLives Matter.
It does not say white livesdon't matter.
It does not say Black LivesMatter more, and I would be
(05:23):
willing to bet dollars to donuts, that when a lot of white
people hear the phrase or aboutthe movement Black Lives Matter,
they think that it means one ofthose other things.
They feel like it means one ofthose other things Because if
they don't, I don't know why.
More often than not, theresponse you hear from my family
(05:44):
, my family, it's well, you know, all lives matter and I think,
well, of course, all livesmatter.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
You know what I'm saying to that when people say
all lives matter, they say ifall lives really mattered we
wouldn't have to say Black LivesMatter.
Because, remember, the wholepremise or the whole how the
movement even started was behindthe Trayvon Martin murder when
George Zimmerman walked off froma killing that kid, and that
(06:11):
was the origin.
And, like you, were talkingabout the first Black female
principal at the school at thattime, three courageous Black
women started this organizationand then it just started to grow
from there and it was justamazing.
The purpose of it was to justreally put a focus on social,
racial, economic injustices,police brutality and those
(06:35):
things.
Now, I agree with the messaging100%.
I only think I guess I can sayI don't agree with when it comes
to Black Lives Matter is thedefunding of the police part.
I think the police need moreresources, not necessarily guns,
but they need more training,they need more help when they're
(06:56):
engaging someone with mentaldisabilities and things like
that.
But otherwise I agree with ittotally.
Well, you know funny story here.
I'm sorry, that's all right.
Of course I'm a pastor of aministry and when Black Lives
Matter came to Baraboo there wasa sort of a gathering right at
(07:19):
the courthouse.
There I was in full support, mywife and I, and then, of course,
we did the walk with them downby the police station and back
to the courthouse.
And then, of course, a fewmembers of my church, three
white women, and they basicallyjumped all in my face talking
(07:41):
about me.
Marching with a Black LivesMatter is the equivalent to them
marching with the Klan.
And then I was like do y'alleven understand or know what
this movement is even about?
Apparently not, and that iskind of what you were saying
earlier.
When people just hear BlackLives Matter they cringe.
But if you just take a momentto really read and understand
(08:04):
what the movement is all about,maybe your tensions, their
tensions, should be lowered.
You know it should becausesimply all you're doing is just
speaking out against things thatwe see and know are happening
today and see like a.
You know I say this a lot, butit's like when you point out an
(08:25):
issue you become the problem.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
And that's where you know, it's always been.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
You know, of course, like I said, remember, in a
previous podcast I said thecountry is tired of hearing the
Black man cry.
You know it's like now whatthey complaining about this.
They're complaining about thatthese three young ladies here.
They formed this movement andit's spread across the country.
It started, like I said, in2013 after the Trayvon Martin
(08:53):
murder, but it really came tolight in 14 when Mike Brown was
murdered in Ferguson, missouri.
But not only did his murder,you know, by that police officer
, but it also spotlighted awhole bunch of years of
injustice People spending, youknow, year, 18 months, in jail
for a hundred dollar ticket.
(09:14):
They could not pay.
And then, of course, you know,and it's just, this movement is,
to me, is very simple it's acivil rights movement.
You know, it's just what theyused to do back when.
You know, you point out someinjustices and you upset some
people.
Now, and of course, black LivesMatter, in my opinion, has been
(09:37):
demonized.
You know, of course, you lookacross the country when you see
these gatherings, some of thembecome turned into altercations
and you have to ask who made thefirst push, because when you
got a hundred people saying, hey, we're tired of being treated
the way we're being treated.
And you got a police force,it's just going to have a pen
(10:01):
agitation, that's just.
It's just an uncalled for.
And so that's why you know, inaddition to you know, course
those gatherings, then of coursethe police, then of course a
push comes and then a shove, andthen of course there is the
bull rush, so to speak.
And then you know and it'sfunny, because right now, 19
cities are paying out over $80million to these people because
(10:25):
of what they've done, likepeople got shot in the face with
those non-lethal beanbag gunsand tear gas and stuff like that
, just simply for gathering.
And I don't, in my opinion,again, I don't believe that
people within these Black LivesMatter gatherings were agitators
(10:46):
.
I just don't believe that.
I mean, but everyone's going tohave their own opinion but
because all you see is the endresult, you know, you see people
gathering, then you see askirmish, or you see a brawl,
you see what you see on TV andit could the narrative could be
changed a million different ways.
And then, of course, withinthese gatherings, what was
(11:09):
amazing is it started to pointout how people, for some reason,
when there was going to be aBlack Lives Matter gathering.
Some mysterious way, pallets ofbricks would show up.
It's like it just again.
It's like a.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Palettes of bricks.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It's just, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
So they could be thrown at people, or is that the
?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
It's just thrown into again.
It was the whole narrative wasto create that all Black people
or these gatherings createviolence and damage and things
like that.
I remember the Black LivesMatter rally in Madison.
It was three white girls getarrested for busting windows up
out of capital, and it's justagain.
It's.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Well, yeah, when the riots happened for that too.
You have video of people beingcovered by the local news
channels, and there's video ofpeople like white guys all going
into stores and pulling thestuff out of the stores.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
It's like, but again it all falls under the name.
It falls under Black LivesMatter, and again in every
movement in every situation.
Every movement, there's going tobe people there that may not be
there for specifically for thecause, and those things have
(12:28):
happened.
But again, I stand by themessaging, the methodology and
some instances I would probablyeven go in a little more
peaceful.
But it's just like I said, Iagree 100% with the message and
the methodology could probablyuse some work, but for the most
(12:49):
part the message is plain andsimple.
You know, be fair, be right,treat people right, no voting
rights.
You know the world is aware ofthe, of the inequality, and
again people don't want toaddress it because again you
point out an issue, you becomethe problem.
And so now what we're seeing?
(13:09):
People want to take away theissue by erasing history, and
then of course they'll say, well, what problem.
And so that's where we are.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I remember hearing an activist or someone involved in
the movement, I forget, severalyears ago and it hadn't really
clicked for me until I heard hersay the reason that you have to
support, or we should support,black Lives Matter is because
until Black Lives Matter, nolife will matter.
(13:41):
And I thought that was reallyprofound from the standpoint of
we do have this sort of you know, we talk about being in a
racial soup.
You know, I have a friend thattalks about you know, we, we
want to say we're not racistsbecause we don't want to as
white people.
I don't want to admit that I'mbad in a racist.
(14:05):
I'll say I'm not racist.
I have friends that are, thatare Black.
I mean, antoine and I do thispodcast together.
You know I'm not a racist andthe reality is that all of us
are like baked in a racistracial slew.
You know, I mean, there's asoup going on here and there are
(14:26):
things that happen to usunconsciously, consciously in
our biases, that make it reallyreally, really difficult to
understand, even intellectually,why we would have an emotional
reaction to something like BlackLives Matter by immediately
(14:46):
going to an argument of, well,all lives matter.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Okay, and then of course we have blue lives matter
, right, and you know, and ofcourse that was in opposition or
in protest and I stand behindthe police and again it's like I
back the badge too, I mean whenthings are right.
But you know, it is just againlike I said earlier, I love the
messaging, everything except forthe defund, the police part,
(15:13):
right, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
On even the defund police part.
You know I mean what.
What that came out of wasn'tjust defund the police because
the police are mean, or, youknow, the police are brutal.
We want to see them not have asmuch money.
There's nothing like that.
The message was, the thinkingwas, let's take some of that
money that we're spending onpolice and instead directed
towards community services.
(15:36):
You've already spoken about it,you know, and most a lot of
police officers I know will talkabout how nowadays they're
they're having to take care ofso many different things in
terms of human behavior andhuman circumstances and
situations that they're just notequipped for.
And a lot of them have to dowith psychological care.
(15:56):
They have to do, you know, withthings that are negotiating
situations, that they're nottrained therapists, they're not
trained social workers Right,they don't have the, the toolkit
there to deal with that stuff,you know.
And then you're looking ateducation, you know, looking at,
you know we're looking more andmore for ways to make the
(16:17):
school systems even moredisparate than they already are,
because we don't want our kidsgoing to one of those bad, you
know, bad, black inner cityschools where the education is
just horrible.
Okay, let's, I don't get it.
So it's horrible, so we shouldmake it more horrible.
Is that what we're sayingultimately?
Because that's all you're goingto do by defunding that.
(16:39):
So you know, the plain, simplething is it's not about
defunding as much as it isprioritizing funding for things
that will really, at the end ofthe day, provide much more
return on the investment,because otherwise we're going to
catch up all the time.
We can fund more police, asyou're saying there's.
There's certainly a need forbetter trained police, more
(17:03):
police in a lot of areas, but itcan't just be about that.
It's also got to be about letif we could.
And then I think a lot ofpolice officers would say if we
could do things in our societyto eliminate more and more of
the need for police, they'd beall for that, but they just if
we could do something todecrease crime, if we could do
(17:25):
things to decrease violence,they're all about doing that.
So that's ultimately the.
I think the message of BlackLives Matter is let's get at the
systemic things going on andsee if we can't address them.
We spend our money, we choose tospend our money and all kinds
of things, but maybe there'ssome better ways to spend it
here.
(17:45):
You know, do you invest in a401k or do you invest in your
IRA?
Well, which one has the betterreturn, I don't know, depends on
the market.
Well, the market right nowfocuses the US.
The market right now is ourcities.
You know our towns, our innercities that are struggling
because we're not meeting theneeds in the most effective ways
(18:09):
.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Exactly, and that's what, again, what I love about
the movement, you know, ofcourse, because it's pointing
out the systemic and intentionaltargeting of certain
communities.
I believe you know that thedemise of some people and
communities are deliberate andintentional.
It's just that, just from whatI see.
And, of course, the way thingsare going now within our
(18:33):
national government, and again,actions have become bolder and
intentions have been made evenclearer.
And, of course, even in thewhen it comes to voting, you
know, just trying to trying totake a, just trying to oppress
the vote, trying to sabotage thevote, trying to the right to
(18:54):
vote, I should say you know thatthese things are intentional
and these things are no, this islike state sanctioned violence
against people of color, youknow, and, of course, and and so
this organization, they'repointing this thing out and, you
know, in the course, again,they're being demonized.
There's a lot of disinformation.
(19:15):
People haven't even, probablyeven went to their website to
even look and see what they'reabout.
But yet you just hate when youhear black lives matter, you
know, and it's just a, go andsee what it's about first.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, I went to encyclopedia Britannica,
Britannica online so.
I couldn't think of anythingmore white than encyclopedia
Britannica, you know, because ifthat, if that isn't a stagy,
you know, erudite place forknowledge, they had Pull this up
here quick.
They had an interesting notehere that the they said the
(19:48):
black lives mission and themovement has many goals.
Blm activists seek to drawattention to the many ways in
which black people are treatedunfairly in society and the ways
in which institutions, laws andpolicies help to perpetuate
that unfairness.
The movement has fought racismThrough such means as political
(20:09):
action, letter writing,campaigns and campaigns and
nonviolent protests.
Blm seeks to combat policebrutality, the overpolicing of
minority neighborhoods and theabuses committed by for-profit
Jails.
Oh, that's a good topic forprofit.
Profit jails it's efforts haveincluded calls for better
(20:30):
training for police and greateraccountability for police
misconduct police.
Blm activists have also calledfor Defunding the police, that
is, reducing police departmentbudgets and investing the freed
up funds and community socialservices, such as mental health
and conflict resolution programs.
Blm activists have worked onvoter registration and get out
(20:52):
the vote campaigns in blackcommunities.
In addition, blm programs havecelebrated black artists and
writers.
So Where's the bad in all ofthat?
Exactly Where's the bad, youknow, and I guess the thing I
always hear, or often hear fromfolks too, is the minute you
(21:12):
talk about that it's like well,white people would like that too
.
Why can't we have that forwhite people too?
And my answer is what do youmean?
We don't?
I we're?
When did we not have that stuff?
Because I think it's available.
You just have to look for it.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, I think you know, I think If, again, if
people really just got past thetitle and looked at the message,
a lot of a low-income Whitepeople will realize they're in
the same exact boat.
Not only that, I would love theopportunity In one day the Lord
willing, I'll have one where wecan address Low-income white
(21:50):
people and and just talk aboutthe history, talk and talk
face-to-face about some things,and even just because the goal
would be to let them know thatthey're in the same boat as we
are.
And the sad part is they don'trealize that they're being used
as pawns in a game.
You know, like the Trumps andthe what's the senator of this?
Ron Johnson's and the Tedcruises, those guys are never
(22:15):
gonna lift a muscle or a fingerin a fight, but they provoke and
agitate low-income white peopleinto Some.
They got people ready for acivil war.
They're not.
And they don't realize thatthey are being pawns played in a
game.
They don't realize that thevery people that they're voting
for want to take away their,their social security, their
(22:36):
grandmother social security.
Basically, they've voting toget their Grandmother with
pre-existing diabetes.
They want to.
They want to get her leg cutoff because they want to vote
again because again, this racialdivide, the hate, has always
been here and of course now isis is getting closer and closer
to being called what it is.
(22:56):
But you know, people get behinda certain message, but you know
what's behind that message andthat's where you know the veil
has to be torn and say, hey, doyou realize and see that?
You know you're fightingagainst yourself.
You're fighting against you.
Fighting against yourself, youknow, because if you, if you're
not making X amount of dollars ayear, you're in the same boat,
(23:19):
and so to be able to have thatconversation and really just
drive that home To some people,hopefully they get it and see it
and be like wow, because againyou could take.
You know, because of theunderlined Politics, it's all
about race, power and money.
That's it.
And of course the people at thetop are trying to keep power.
(23:41):
They're gonna agitate and Dowhatever they can to get money
from these people and then theywant to keep races of people
down.
That's that's what the wholegame is about.
And they're just low-incomewhite people.
Just need to understand.
They're being used, you know.
And of course, us being men ofGod, you know again, the Bible
(24:03):
says Unbalanced scales are anabomination to the Lord.
They don't understand.
They're helping in the part oftrying to tip the scales In the
school boards, they're on thecity and state legislatures.
They're, they're, they saythey're Christian, but obviously
I don't know if they read theirBibles Because they wouldn't
know that.
Hey, what they're doing iswrong and of course you know
(24:26):
it's just, it's sad.
Again, that's what we do, thispodcast, raul, just, uh, hey,
let's get to know each other,right.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Right, well, you know , and when I can't figure you
out, I think a lot of that sortof you know talking about having
pawns and playing the chessgame so that your pawns in a
chess game, the pawns usuallyare sacrificed pretty regularly.
You know they're sacrificedeither to block a more important
piece, you know.
(24:57):
So if you, you know I can blockmy king from being in check by
throwing a palm pawn right infront of it, and then the only
way to, you know, capture thatpawn, you're gonna end up, you
know, losing the piece thatcaptures it.
So you know it really is achess game that's going on A lot
of January 6th.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, look atthat.
(25:18):
And then you know we, we turnover, you know hundreds of
thousands of hours worth offootage and of course, they can
pick out stuff where, oh, theseguys were just peacefully
visiting.
Look they're.
They're looking at thepaintings and the hallways.
You know there was nothingviolent going on there, so
anything.
Well, I don't like that.
You know what are we thinkinghere?
But then you know thefundamentally I think a lot of
(25:41):
this stuff just points to we allwant to feel better.
You know we want to feel betterabout our lot in life, and
oftentimes to our, to ourdetriment.
We're led to believe by peoplethat the way to feel better
about yourself is to either takeaway from someone else or to
(26:02):
feel better than someone else.
So, you know, you end up with asituation where, yeah, poor
white people are gettingutilized as something, a tool to
protect bigger, more powerfulpieces on the chessboard.
And the reality is that thosepawns you know whether you're
(26:26):
the black pawns or the whitepawns, we're all being used to
protect the more importantpieces.
So you know why.
Why do we want to fight amongstthe pawns?
You know what?
Why can't it be both?
Then you know, when I say blacklives matter, why can't we say,
(26:46):
yeah, black lives do matter.
You're right, they do matterand we need to do something
about that.
You know white lives matter too.
Yes, of course they matter, butyou know, that's something that,
if we can't get, and stay onthe fact that well is what
happened to Trayvon Martin Iswhat happened to him?
Is that okay?
Is what happened to GeorgeFloyd?
(27:06):
Is it okay?
Well, I'd like to see no, no,no, just please answer that
question.
Is that okay?
Is that all right with you thatTrayvon Martin is a 16-year-old
kid walking through aneighborhood.
Some guy sees him and thinks helooks quote-unquote suspicious,
calls the police, wants thepolice to come.
The police tell himspecifically do not engage the
(27:28):
kid.
Will be there right away.
He engages the kid and ends upgetting into an argument with
him.
We don't know what the argumentwas like or what it was about.
Unfortunately there weren't abunch of phones cell phones
around like there were withGeorge Floyd where he could
actually record what was goingon, but it ended up with Trayvon
Martin being killed and youknow then, eventually, after a
(27:51):
bunch of protesting, who's Iforget the white guy's name what
was it?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
that George Zimmerman .
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Zimmerman.
So Zimmerman gets finally triedfor second-degree murder and
then is acquitted of it becauseof the Florida Stand your Ground
law, which was a-.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
And that's what I was talking about, raul, that
state-sanctioned violence that'sallowed, because I can't
remember what state it isFlorida.
It was all about protesting,right, they would know the Black
Lives Matter were in that townprotesting and the city passed a
law saying if the residents hadthe right to shoot people
walking on their sidewalk Well,and we have to Google that and
(28:31):
have that information for thenext time.
But it was like I can'tremember what city I almost want
to say it was somewhere inNorth South Carolina or
something but they wereprotesting there in the city, or
the state passed a law sayingif these protesters walked on
your property, as a property,only you had the right to shoot
them, right, well, gosh back inthe 1600s they had laws on the
(28:51):
books that were saying if aBlack man was out walking the
sidewalk after nine o'clock hecould be arrested, you know, for
walking the sidewalk after nineo'clock.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Why is this so prevalent?
Well, because it's historical.
There's a lot of precedence forit.
I don't mean to laugh becauseit's not funny.
It's just look, wake up, Lookat it.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
And again all this organization does Black Lives
Matter.
They point these things outbecause again you see the
systematic and intentionaltargeting of a group of people
to be demised, to be killed, tobe wiped off the face of the
earth, to just be.
They want I don't know what,just to be a lower class citizen
, just to be.
You know, they want toreinforce that three-fourths of
(29:37):
a man that's in the Constitutionby taking away rights and just
a Again.
And then, of course, and againit's like, even with the
violence, you know, again thestates know these things are
happening, like the when thepeople that were in Michigan,
(29:58):
they were plotting to kill thatfemale governor up there.
Yeah, one of the sheriffs wasactually rocking with the guys.
You know, and it just it justagain you know you got people in
high places that mean harm.
You know it's like us beinglike, say, francis, again Black
(30:19):
Lives Matter point these thingsout because again these things,
like you look at the Tennessee'sand the Georgia's and
especially the Texas right, youlook at places like that the
state is aware of these thingsand their passing laws to make
it so where you can shoot aperson and walk away scot-free.
You know, going on Florida.
(30:42):
You don't have to have a, youcan just carry a gun.
You just carry a gun.
And then, of course, youcombine that with the stand your
ground law.
You, you accidentally bumpedinto somebody at the gas station
.
They can kill you just Just ona whim.
And and that's again thesestates.
They are deliberately andintently passing laws to make it
(31:04):
easier to kill people of colorand and and and then the course
of discriminatory.
Discriminatory factor is usbeing a Black organization, or
even though we cater more toCaucasian or white people.
However, you know, just becauseour faces and our names are on
(31:25):
the documents, we have a veryhard time raising funds.
You know, in the question, yougo to these various
organizations and you say, hey,we're trying to do this event,
we understand that y'all givegrants.
And then it's always a twistand a turn.
You know, talking with a oneowner, a white owner, she was
(31:45):
like, oh yeah, I get this moneyfrom the organization every year
and of course, and it's like wego to get it the funds aren't
available.
It's like a yeah, and it's justpeople that mean harm,
unfortunately, sit in powerfulseats, and that's how the
discriminatory and thesystematic things continue to
take place and just a blacklives matter.
(32:07):
Point these things out.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
You, you pointed out, if the three-fifths compromise
that, that it to, I guess, tounderscore how deeply this stuff
goes.
Folks.
You know, and this is, this isjust history.
Okay, the three-fifthscompromises a compromise is
established that a slave wouldbe counted as three-fifths of a
(32:31):
person when taking a census Of astate's overall population.
It was reached during the 1787constitutional convention in
Philadelphia, pennsylvania, andbasically that all came to
voting, that the the members ofHouse of Representatives, if
it's the same today, it'sdetermined each state has a
(32:54):
certain number ofrepresentatives based on how
many people live in their state.
Well, of course, theagricultural states in the South
largely Didn't have as manywhite people Living there
because they they had theselarge plantations right, lots of
land.
They weren't urbanized likenorthern areas were.
So that I say that because itwas Then, and now there are
(33:17):
voting regulatory, there are,you know, laws, there are power
plays in play in all of thisthat are Predicated on the same
basis that that black peoplejust don't count as much.
So when you have a movementlike black lives matter, it's
like no, no, no, no, no, blacklives don't count that much,
(33:38):
they're only three-fifths.
It's like it's somewhere deepin our, our psyche and I want to
point out one thing.
I know we're running out oftime and time, but kind of God,
darn it.
One of the things that keepshappening when you do this, when
you talk about things likeblack lives matters, is that
white people get Uncomfortableand we start thinking I didn't
have any slaves, I didn't doanything, I'm not a racist.
(34:00):
It all becomes about likesaving face, you know.
It becomes like I, I.
I don't know why you're tryingto make me feel bad about
something I didn't have anythingto do with, and I have to say I
was there too at one point.
I got uncomfortable.
I've used those same argumentsin my own head and then I had to
(34:20):
sit down with God One day andsay you know, god, this isn't
gonna be an ongoing problem withme.
I can tell, so please help mefind a way.
And you know God is good, god isgracious, god is the God of
love and understanding and hehas shown me Over the past years
(34:41):
I guess I'd say it has been aprocess over the past couple of
years really that I've startedto wake up.
It's okay to feel uncomfortable, it's okay to not feel good
about this, and I'm not gonnanot feel good because I'm a
white person.
I'm gonna not feel good becauseI'm a person and it's not good
(35:01):
for other people to be treatedlike this.
It's not good for us to sitback and let Jewish people be
treated the way they were duringthe Holocaust in Germany, when
a lot of white folks just stoodback and said I'm not gonna get
involved it.
You know they're killing thoseguys and I know that.
You know it doesn't seem right,but I'm not gonna get involved.
I got too much, I can losemyself.
(35:23):
It's the same when you know anyGroup of people is being
persecuted because of who theyare foundationally.
That's wrong and that shouldmake us feel bad as human beings
.
That should make us feel bad Ifwe don't do anything about it.
So I get it if you're feelingbad because black lives matter
makes you just kind of feel it'snot fair that they're making me
(35:46):
feel bad for things.
No, they're not making you feelbad.
I would swear to God, it's theHoly Spirit Convicting you of
feeling bad because we are notdoing what God calls us to do.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
And in a course, when you've mentioned, like black
lives matter and you talk aboutthese racial, social, economic
Inequalities, you know, course,the first thing now is the
reverse racism.
You know it's a black livesmatter as anti-white, and and
it's all.
This is just like stop, youknow, really, just take a few
minutes to listen to the messageand again, you know, like, I
(36:20):
know I was a preaching this acouple weeks ago, but it's like,
right before our very eyes, analternate reality has formed,
and and and you can't, no matterwhat evidence, no matter what
facts, evidence you put in frontof them, nope, it didn't happen
.
No, I don't believe it.
And that's where we are.
(36:41):
And you know, the Bible sayslike God be true and every man a
liar right, and that's the samein the church.
I was watching this special onAmazon Prime called white savior
, something about it's calledwhite savior, history of
American church or something,and it was talking about how you
(37:03):
know, churches, racism, church,basically, is still the root of
racism.
Remember, I was telling you likemy problem is with the church,
with all this white and blackstuff.
Yeah, it starts in the churchand and and it's still there
because you know like and it wasthe special, it was just a part
of pointed out some amazingpoints About.
Even they use this.
(37:23):
Just I'll make the funny partof it.
It's like a the worship youknow it should know no,
stereotypically, you go to awhite church is huh and in and
out, and then you go to a blackchurch is yelling and screaming
this hours long, and but theywere so much more fun.
I'm almost done and it's like,for whatever reason, it's like
the I can't remember the exactwording, but it was like it was
(37:46):
almost as if these things areintentional to keep others away
from One church or the other.
Yeah, I'm gonna do exactly whatI know you don't like, right,
and that's where.
But yeah, I know we're out oftime here, man, but yes, I'd
love to continue this next week.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, yeah, we got more to talk about and and
hopefully, you know, if you'refeeling bad, praise God.
You know, if you're, if you'refeeling like let's just kind of
just unsettling, praise God,because when we're unsettled,
that's when we can be cultivated.
You know, you don't, you don'tgrow anything and ground that's
just packed tight, you don't?
(38:22):
It just doesn't grow things.
You got to loosen up the soil.
So if you're, if your soil isfeeling loosened up, if you're
feeling like you know there'sweeds that you know, oh gosh, I
gotta pick some more weeds out.
Good, good, it's all right.
There's water, there's sun,there's ways to deal with all
that.
But Don't, please don't, turnthis into something other than
(38:46):
what it is is a call to thinkabout it.
We're just a black guy and awhite guy trying to figure it
out ourselves, and we just knowthat the way things are are not
good enough.
We can do so.
This country can and is greatand it needs to do better.
We just need to do so all thereis to do.
So let's do better.
(39:07):
You're not gonna do better,that's for sure.
Right?
You just said they're going.
Oh, dude, what are you?
What are you drinking?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
It's a great point, man, and you know, and it's uh
Like you said, I love what yousaid, though it's just like a
hate the Lord chest, as in thosewhom he loves.
So, you know, if you getreceiving some conviction,
receive it and just learn fromit and ask for what can I do
next?
Speaker 2 (39:36):
So the next time, yeah, man.
Let's make sure, though, youdon't have a bear's shirt on,
okay, cuz that's that's reasonfor war, right there?
I mean sorry, man, you're youreally.
What are you doing, dude?
You're just asking for troubleup there in backer land.
So, but okay, I get your bold,I'll give you that.
You're bold, you're courageous.
(39:56):
So yeah, antoine, you take careman.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Okay, I'll see you, man, Thank you those we've been
listening.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Thanks for listening to frame of reference coming
together.
We'll be with you next week orsometime soon and you know,
please, if you've got anycomments, go to www for sock
calm and write your comments andTry to try to make them
Comments that we can all thinkabout.
Okay, okay, take care folks.
Bye.
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