September 30, 2025 • 22 mins
Nate Cross & Ben Kowalski answer your freight brokering questions and discuss:
🔒 Broker Liability – Who really carries the risk when loads are stolen through identity theft?
💻 Tech Stack – Best TMS and accounting software for new brokers.
👥 Agent Growth – Where to find reliable broker agents and how to structure fair, competitive pay.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome back.
Another edition of the FinalMile.
This is one of my favoritethings to do is answer our
listeners' questions.
If you're brand new to us, makesure to check out all of our
other content on YouTube and onour website at Freight360.net,
including the Freight BrokerBasics course If you're looking
for some training for yourselfor for maybe some new team
(00:23):
members as you're growing, andmake sure to check out the
sponsors in the description box.
That'll help support thischannel.
Ben, our first question.
This is funny because I pulledthis one off of YouTube and you
then sent it to me and were likehey, add this.
And I was like I already did.
So this is going to be a gooddiscussion here.
So for small brokers, does therisk still justify the reward in
(00:46):
today's market?
In cases where a load is stolenthrough identity theft,
liability often falls on thebroker, since shippers blame our
vetting process and the carriermay claim ignorance.
But who should be heldresponsible in these scenarios?
I literally had thisconversation.
Well, having this conversationwith a customer, it's kind of
(01:07):
gotten quiet because I mighthave brought this up in the past
.
But, like you know, we dideverything right, we verified in
our vetting software and wetold the, we told the shipper,
like we're sending in this truck, it's going to be this color
and this MC, and blah, blah,blah, blah.
And you know the carrier emailgot hacked.
(01:32):
So they made that littleloophole or that little.
I guess they kind of breachedthat area.
But the shipper who had theinformation, we told him, like
there's this risk, like don'tload them until you know you,
like we've created the BOL foryou, right, we've done
everything right.
If this stuff doesn't match upwith what I provided for, you do
(01:54):
not load them.
And the shipper loaded themanyway because they just whoever
was on the dock clearly doesn'tcare enough and loaded the
wrong truck.
This stuff got stolen andthey're like, well, you guys,
you guys didn't vet them wellenough and we're like the hell
we didn't.
We vetted them so well and gaveyou the correct information and
said this is who we've approved.
If they don't show up, do notload them.
(02:17):
And they still loaded them.
But what's your take here, ben?
Because it is like it's a validquestion, like if you're not a
big fish and you can't absorbthe blow of one big hit.
It's discouraging for smallerbrokers.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
There's a lot of nuance to this right.
The first is to really providethe protection that I think
shippers expect.
They need to be working withyou to your point, meaning, like
, if there's nobody at theloading dock verifying the
information you're giving tothem, like you can do everything
in the world to vet the rightdriver and company but at the
(02:52):
end of the day, like you're notphysically there, the person
physically there needs to dosome base level things to
actually protect that.
Now, with some customers andthat's why I want to answer this
on YouTube like some shippersjust aren't willing to and some
aren't able to do that becausetheir companies are too big and
they can't get the SOPs to beadhered to by their loading docs
(03:14):
or the people loading themconsistently enough to do this
100% of the time.
So like that is one question,but like maybe you are a broker
that works with customers thatyou have really good
relationships with and you talkto the loading docs and they can
do that with you, so you haveless risk.
Right, we talked about the techpackages and things and the
operational things you can dothat really mitigate a lot of
(03:36):
these, but you're not going toget that to zero right.
So, as a small broker, it alsodepends on like what kind of
commodities you're shipping.
You know they're not likely tosteal a load of lumber as much
as they are 300 grand worth ofAdidas apparel that you've found
Right.
(04:00):
Yep tech package as well asyour operational procedures for
the people using this technologyare all, I think, very
important, Because if you're notdoing those things, it's
probably not worth being in thebusiness because you're going to
get robbed Right and then, likethe last one is like you
absolutely can't have insurancefor this and our company does,
(04:21):
and I've seen other clients thathave gotten it and like it's
worthwhile to have, but it alsocomes at a cost, right.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
And then you have to ask yourself, if something bad
happens, is it bad enough that Iwant to file a claim and make
my rates go up?
We kind of keep it for, likethe nuclear incident, you know
yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And on top of that, right Like the last, is like a
lot of how, or whether or notyou answer this question.
It's too risky or not risky andI should do it right, like,
which side of that line you'reon.
Also, I think depends on, likethe underrated human skill of
communication, right, like,shippers are going to see things
(05:00):
from their point of view.
They are going to have yearssometimes of experience and
perceptions of what they expectfrom a broker and what they can
do and what protections exist.
And I will tell you, in thewhat 15 years I've been doing
this, most of them are incorrector just absolutely outright
wrong, meaning like where theyjust, hey, I use a broker.
(05:22):
So if anything gets stolen,like this is just on you, I'm
like that's not true.
And also, there's no contractin place.
So, like that's for sure nottrue.
If you look at, like, the actualregulations in the
transportation industry, right,like, so you also need to be
able to have conversationsfluidly back and forth with your
customers to understand whatyou are liable for, what you
(05:45):
aren't, what can be done, whatcan be done to prevent it and if
something does get stolen, whoand what happens at that stage.
Right, which is a conversationnobody ever wants to have is hey
, by the way, I'm your brokerand I can't protect you a
hundred percent.
So, like let's talk about whatwould happen if you do get
robbed with one of the loads yougive me.
It's like not an easyconversation to segue into.
However, like these areimportant things to at least
(06:12):
understand and to talk throughwith your customers, because I
can tell you like I've beeninvolved in so many of these
that have gone in completelydifferent directions, based on,
like, what a shipper'sexpectation was of using a
broker, and I can tell you mostof them like weren't accurate.
And then, like I've beeninvolved in ones where you bring
the attorney and they're like,yeah, like they're not right at
all, like this is not how thisworks, this is not how this is
going to play out in court, andthen it's weeks and months and
(06:33):
they're not paying invoices andit creates tons of headaches,
right?
So, like, honestly, I do thinkthe industry has gotten riskier
recently and I would spend moretime learning and understanding
how you are protecting thesethings.
And also, very importantly,like one of the most important
things I think about is likeeverybody should really
understand how you're going toget robbed, because it's a lot
(06:54):
easier to protect yourself ifyou know where the likely paces
are that you're vulnerable.
Right, you're not going to plugevery hole all the time, but at
least just being aware of howsomeone's trying to rob you
makes it a little less likelythan that's going to happen,
right.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Agreed man.
It's kind of like I think backto what you said a few minutes
back is like you've got to have.
If you're not going to have, ifyou're not going to take the
time, put the tools in place andthe processes in place, you
probably shouldn't be in thisindustry.
It's kind of like if you don'twant to spend the money to get
your child the pads and theequipment they need to safely
(07:33):
play travel ice hockey, probablyshouldn't have them playing
travel ice hockey.
You know what I mean, so Allright.
Next question I'm a new brokerand looking for recommendations
on commonly used software,mainly TMS platforms and
accounting tools.
I think I've decided on ShipperCRM for my CRM, but I'd love to
hear your opinions andsuggestions.
(07:53):
Well, ben, you and I have bothgone through TMS related things
in the recent history, so theTMS and the accounting are going
to go hand in hand, because thevast majority of TMSs require
an external accounting system.
Here's what I'll tell you.
On the accounting side, wepersonally you and I use
(08:14):
QuickBooks Online for Freight360.
That's my broker just moving tofor our next TMS, no complaints
.
I think the desktop version.
I actually talked to QuickBooksyesterday.
The desktop version is stillaround.
It's kind of going obsolete,but that's more intended for
like companies that have totrack inventory, which we don't
(08:35):
have to do on the brokerage side.
So QuickBooks Online is great,yeah, what's the one from Oracle
?
No, great Plains is another.
It's a different one NetSuite.
Netsuite by Oracle is anotherreally good accounting system.
I have never used it.
I've heard raving reviews.
(08:56):
Now, the TMS totally depends onyour size, your budget, what
you're moving, size your budget,what you're moving.
What I would encourage you todo is to totally understand your
business and demo a lot of TMSsbased on exactly what you're
looking to do.
A salesperson will tell you alot of times, yeah, we could do
(09:18):
that.
And then an actual tech personinside will be like, no, it
doesn't work that way.
Right, like I've seenaccounting hurdles, commission
report, hurdles, um reportingjust like all kinds of stuff.
So, um, depending on whereyou're at it's, you know it just
(09:40):
depends, like do you wantweb-based or do you want, um,
software-based?
Another one is the pricingmodel.
I've seen three differentpricing, four different pricing
models this year as looking fornew TMSs.
One is the you pay for thelicense up front and you have it
forever, no upgrades, right?
(10:00):
Mccloud's an example of acompany like that.
I've seen the price per personper month, like price per user
per month.
That's a pretty common one.
A lot of companies have that.
I've seen the price per loadthat runs through there and I've
seen the price per based off ofrevenue, which I actually kind
(10:23):
of like those models where youcan basically, as you scale, um,
you pay more based on yourbusiness growing, not like if,
like.
So there was a couple that Italked to that were priced per
person per month and I was like,well, I'm like if one of my
branches hires 10 new people andthey know that they're hoping
one or two stick after twomonths, I'm like, and they,
(10:47):
let's say, hoping one or twostick after two months, I'm like
, and let's say they never eventouch the TMS or never move a
load, I'm like we still got topay for that Kind of like.
We get penalized for trying tohave a hiring class right,
whereas if it's based off theload count or the revenue count,
we only pay for it if theproduction comes through, and
that's why I kind of like thatflexibility of models like that.
But you see, you have to look atpricing model.
You have to look at what can itintegrate with?
(11:08):
Does it integrate in and out ofyour accounting system?
Does it have integrations withload boards?
Does it have integrations withyour carrier vetting, with
rating tools, with tracking?
There's a lot of good ones outthere.
There's a lot of really goodweb-based ones.
I there's a lot of really goodweb-based ones.
I'm not going to give like anoverall recommendation on one.
(11:28):
I mean I'll tell you that, like, if you look at our website,
we've recommended Rose, rocketand Ascend to a lot of newer
brokers.
I think they're a greatflexible option for folks that
are fairly new.
What's your thoughts here?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Need more information , just like you said.
Right, if you really want todig into this and reach out,
like we can do, like a shortcoaching agreement or something,
because, like you would want alot of details, like even what
you just said, like I couldthink of three examples that
could push you to either side orthe other, right, okay, if I'm
a brokerage and I'm hiring abunch of agents and seeing if
they want to work out, I want tobe price per load.
(12:01):
If I'm a small brokerage thatdoes a ton of drayage, I don't
need a lot of people and I don'twant to get price per load
volume, because I want per user,because one person can do a lot
more work than if they're doingspot freight in the van world.
Right, yeah, so like how andwhat you're moving really is
going to tell you which pricingmodels to your advantage.
But like the biggest thing iswhat you touch on is like you
(12:24):
really got to think about whatyou need to do with this.
Like you and I looked at onerecently and it's like, okay,
this one is not built for a lotof agents and a lot of
commission structures.
There are other ones that arebuilt really well for that, but
I've aren't really good withintegrations to load boards and
accounting software andfactoring software Right.
So you, you do kind of reallyneed to know a little bit more
(12:47):
about what section of theindustry you're in and how
you're structured.
I think, to pick the right one,I think it's really important
to ask a lot of questions and ifyou're new and you're just like
one or two people starting yourcompany, like to go with
freemium, go with like Ascend orRose Rockets freemium version.
It'll be enough to get youstarted.
Then you'll know what you likeabout it and what you don't.
(13:07):
Your next one will be a muchbetter decision.
The first one you pick, youalmost kind of don't know what
you don't know, so you just gotto use something.
And then, once you use itenough, you go boy, it'd be nice
if it had this.
And this is kind of a headacheand I really wish it did this.
And you and I have done thisdude over the years.
Like there's some that I'vedemoed and like this is
fantastic and then four monthsinto it I'm like this is dog
shit and I'm like I can'tbelieve I didn't look further
(13:30):
into this and this is terrible,but like it's hard to be able to
see all those things in a demo,like you really got to use
something for, like, honestly,like a couple of weeks probably
to really see what, andsometimes a couple of months
because, like your first coupleof weeks and a couple of months
are very different than whenyou're six months in and you're
like, wait a minute, I'd like tosee which of my customers are
(13:50):
the most profitable, which arethe least profitable, which of
my customers am I taking losseson?
Then you go to the reportingside, which you haven't looked
at, and you're like, wait aminute, it doesn't do any of
this.
They're like, oh well, buildyour own custom report.
(14:22):
And then it's like, okay, what?
And it's like I don't know.
We could literally talk for anhour on this, on things,
expectations versus reality,versus what you need versus what
are nice to have, and are theycapable or are they out of the
box able to do this?
Are they integrated with theother things you're purchasing?
Integration, to me, is a reallybig one, because that's where
you need to hire more people.
When one system doesn't talk toanother at all, you basically
need to put a human being thereor throw more hours at that
solution.
That, to me, is one of thethings I look at, probably the
most, I guess.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Agreed, agreed, all right.
Our last question here werecently started a freight
brokerage and I'm looking foradvice on where to find
professional, reliable brokeragents.
I'd looking for advice on whereto find professional, reliable
broker agents.
I'd also like feedback on howto structure their pay.
What's the current standardcompensation for agents and what
works best to help businessgrow?
Speaker 2 (14:54):
What's this question?
Scream to you every time youhear it.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Oh my God.
Well, what it screams to me isI want someone else to grow my
business for me instead of megrowing it myself.
But as a guy that has literallyI mean, I literally manage an
agent based company and I've hadthis conversation with numerous
people in the past and I'vehelped people through bringing
(15:20):
on their first agent just aslike a friendly courtesy and
what I find interesting.
So I'll answer their questionsand then I'll, then I'll give
you my, I'll give my honest takehere.
Ok, how do you structure, payfor an agent or no?
Where do you find them?
Well, you got to find, you gotto go where, where they're
hanging out.
So, if someone's looking for anew job, they probably have a
(15:42):
resume that's up on Indeed orZipRecruiter.
If they're, you said,professional and reliable, they
probably have a LinkedIn.
Right, we have recruiters atPierce that like, constantly are
looking for folks that are opento opportunities and kind of
talking about the agent modelwith Pierce and that's where
they're hanging out.
(16:03):
They're hanging out on LinkedIn, they're hanging out on Indeed,
ziprecruiter.
You got to be where the agents,the prospective agents, are.
Literally, if you could go on aload board and find a phone
number if they're posting loads.
They got freight.
They're a broker.
You can find them that way, Iguess.
(16:24):
Now how do you structure theirpay?
The common way is a commissionsplit.
You do them 1099.
You'll see some companies payusually a range of like 60% to
70% to their agents.
And you got to look at what arewe paying for?
What are are we paying for?
What are we not paying for?
Like we, we pay 70%, we don'tcharge our agents for anything,
(16:45):
but we also just we only wanttop notch people we don't want.
You know we're not.
We're not throwing wet pasta atthe wall and seeing what sticks
.
So my honest opinion is to havea to really, really, really
build out a good agent basedcompany.
There's a lot that goes intothe recipe.
Number one your company shouldalready be a successful
(17:07):
brokerage, because you shouldalready have yes.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
My answer to this question is no.
Get the business off the groundso you know how it should run,
where your risks are, before youdecide to bring on an agent,
because an agent has lessoversight and more risk to that
business.
And if you're just starting outand you're going to start
bringing on agents like youdon't know what you don't know,
which means your expectationshow you're going to set this up
(17:33):
are going to create so muchliability and risk to the
business you just started thatit's not worth it.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
The reality is, like anysuccessful agent based company
today likely started as asuccessful brokerage before it
pivoted to the agent model.
Okay, because before you pivotto the agent model, you have to
have the understanding of whatworks with customers, what works
(18:01):
with carrier compliance.
How does your accounting teamhandle-?
Day terms receivablesEverything right, loss claims.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
You have to know how the entire business runs before.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
You're like all right , let's pivot and grow it this
other way.
The next thing is the bestcompanies, the best agent-based
companies that do the best jobat bringing in new agents, have
very skilled recruiting focus.
Right An agent recruiter, LikeI have two of them Sales their
sole job.
These are guys that, like, havehad very successful sales
(18:32):
careers and they're just outthere like networking,
networking.
They're selling the model andthe business concept to someone.
You're not out there trying tooffer someone a salary.
You're asking them.
You're offering them anopportunity, yeah, but you're
(18:55):
asking them to change theirentire career to go straight
commission.
That's a hard sell.
So, um, you need a reallyskilled person that can do that.
And the last part is you have tolike knowing how to run and
manage an agent basedorganization is very difficult
because it can be done.
I mean, clearly, there's a lotof really really great companies
(19:17):
out there that do it.
And, and the company I workedfor in the past, like we, we
grew it agent based.
We grew it from like 60 or 40million to like 200 million by
the time I left there.
And I've taken the company I'mat now from zero to, while the
(19:38):
agent division zero to you, theagent division zero to way
higher a pretty good numberright In a matter of five or six
years.
So it takes a lot of work tomanage and train and you have to
turn over certain agents whenthings aren't working.
You have to retrain them.
(19:59):
You know there's it's a wholenother level, because you're not
their boss, they're not anemployee, it's a contractor and
it's a 1099 relationship, right,it's a partnership.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You have no oversight , no legal ability to oversight,
but yet they're representingthe business you own and have to
pay for their mistakes.
So you can't really tell themwhat to do.
But if they do something wrongyou got to pay for it.
Right, that's the risk and Iwould say that, like even just
W-2 working in an office versusW-2 brokerage remote has a lot
(20:34):
more risk to it when you can'tsee when people are showing up
what they're doing all day.
Are they doing the things youtrain them on?
Are they following the systems?
Because everyone goes like, oh,just put in software that makes
people do this Like you and Italked about this like this
morning.
No software I've ever seen isfoolproof to the point where
people can't end around it anddo it some other way.
That creates risk to yourbusiness and you kind of need to
(20:56):
understand those.
Otherwise, like there are somany things that can go wrong in
an agent program or with oneagent, if you don't understand
the business, you're bringingthem into customers paying their
bills, claims, theft, um,misrepresenting your business.
I mean those are just like twoor three large ones.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, too many times man, I cause, I think, a fraud
agents.
You know times, man, becausethen you get fraud agents, you
know, you get people that have agood intention and screw up,
and then you get people who comein with bad intentions.
And they successfully executeon their bad intentions.
That's my dog market.
All right, good questions, Keepthem coming.
Final thoughts Ben.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Whether you believe you can or believe you can't,
you're right.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And until next time go Bills.
All right, welcome back.
Another edition of the FinalMile.
This is one of my favoritethings to do is answer our
listeners' questions.
If you're brand new to us, makesure to check out all of our
other content on YouTube and onour website at Freight360.net,
including the Freight BrokerBasics course If you're looking
for some training for yourselfor for maybe some new team
(00:23):
members as you're growing, andmake sure to check out the
sponsors in the description box.
That'll help support thischannel.
Ben, our first question.
This is funny because I pulledthis one off of YouTube and you
then sent it to me and were likehey, add this.
And I was like I already did.
So this is going to be a gooddiscussion here.
So for small brokers, does therisk still justify the reward in
(00:46):
today's market?
In cases where a load is stolenthrough identity theft,
liability often falls on thebroker, since shippers blame our
vetting process and the carriermay claim ignorance.
But who should be heldresponsible in these scenarios?
I literally had thisconversation.
Well, having this conversationwith a customer, it's kind of
(01:07):
gotten quiet because I mighthave brought this up in the past
.
But, like you know, we dideverything right, we verified in
our vetting software and wetold the, we told the shipper,
like we're sending in this truck, it's going to be this color
and this MC, and blah, blah,blah, blah.
And you know the carrier emailgot hacked.
(01:32):
So they made that littleloophole or that little.
I guess they kind of breachedthat area.
But the shipper who had theinformation, we told him, like
there's this risk, like don'tload them until you know you,
like we've created the BOL foryou, right, we've done
everything right.
If this stuff doesn't match upwith what I provided for, you do
(01:54):
not load them.
And the shipper loaded themanyway because they just whoever
was on the dock clearly doesn'tcare enough and loaded the
wrong truck.
This stuff got stolen andthey're like, well, you guys,
you guys didn't vet them wellenough and we're like the hell
we didn't.
We vetted them so well and gaveyou the correct information and
said this is who we've approved.
If they don't show up, do notload them.
(02:17):
And they still loaded them.
But what's your take here, ben?
Because it is like it's a validquestion, like if you're not a
big fish and you can't absorbthe blow of one big hit.
It's discouraging for smallerbrokers.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
There's a lot of nuance to this right.
The first is to really providethe protection that I think
shippers expect.
They need to be working withyou to your point, meaning, like
, if there's nobody at theloading dock verifying the
information you're giving tothem, like you can do everything
in the world to vet the rightdriver and company but at the
(02:52):
end of the day, like you're notphysically there, the person
physically there needs to dosome base level things to
actually protect that.
Now, with some customers andthat's why I want to answer this
on YouTube like some shippersjust aren't willing to and some
aren't able to do that becausetheir companies are too big and
they can't get the SOPs to beadhered to by their loading docs
(03:14):
or the people loading themconsistently enough to do this
100% of the time.
So like that is one question,but like maybe you are a broker
that works with customers thatyou have really good
relationships with and you talkto the loading docs and they can
do that with you, so you haveless risk.
Right, we talked about the techpackages and things and the
operational things you can dothat really mitigate a lot of
(03:36):
these, but you're not going toget that to zero right.
So, as a small broker, it alsodepends on like what kind of
commodities you're shipping.
You know they're not likely tosteal a load of lumber as much
as they are 300 grand worth ofAdidas apparel that you've found
Right.
(04:00):
Yep tech package as well asyour operational procedures for
the people using this technologyare all, I think, very
important, Because if you're notdoing those things, it's
probably not worth being in thebusiness because you're going to
get robbed Right and then, likethe last one is like you
absolutely can't have insurancefor this and our company does,
(04:21):
and I've seen other clients thathave gotten it and like it's
worthwhile to have, but it alsocomes at a cost, right.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
And then you have to ask yourself, if something bad
happens, is it bad enough that Iwant to file a claim and make
my rates go up?
We kind of keep it for, likethe nuclear incident, you know
yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And on top of that, right Like the last, is like a
lot of how, or whether or notyou answer this question.
It's too risky or not risky andI should do it right, like,
which side of that line you'reon.
Also, I think depends on, likethe underrated human skill of
communication, right, like,shippers are going to see things
(05:00):
from their point of view.
They are going to have yearssometimes of experience and
perceptions of what they expectfrom a broker and what they can
do and what protections exist.
And I will tell you, in thewhat 15 years I've been doing
this, most of them are incorrector just absolutely outright
wrong, meaning like where theyjust, hey, I use a broker.
(05:22):
So if anything gets stolen,like this is just on you, I'm
like that's not true.
And also, there's no contractin place.
So, like that's for sure nottrue.
If you look at, like, the actualregulations in the
transportation industry, right,like, so you also need to be
able to have conversationsfluidly back and forth with your
customers to understand whatyou are liable for, what you
(05:45):
aren't, what can be done, whatcan be done to prevent it and if
something does get stolen, whoand what happens at that stage.
Right, which is a conversationnobody ever wants to have is hey
, by the way, I'm your brokerand I can't protect you a
hundred percent.
So, like let's talk about whatwould happen if you do get
robbed with one of the loads yougive me.
It's like not an easyconversation to segue into.
However, like these areimportant things to at least
(06:12):
understand and to talk throughwith your customers, because I
can tell you like I've beeninvolved in so many of these
that have gone in completelydifferent directions, based on,
like, what a shipper'sexpectation was of using a
broker, and I can tell you mostof them like weren't accurate.
And then, like I've beeninvolved in ones where you bring
the attorney and they're like,yeah, like they're not right at
all, like this is not how thisworks, this is not how this is
going to play out in court, andthen it's weeks and months and
(06:33):
they're not paying invoices andit creates tons of headaches,
right?
So, like, honestly, I do thinkthe industry has gotten riskier
recently and I would spend moretime learning and understanding
how you are protecting thesethings.
And also, very importantly,like one of the most important
things I think about is likeeverybody should really
understand how you're going toget robbed, because it's a lot
(06:54):
easier to protect yourself ifyou know where the likely paces
are that you're vulnerable.
Right, you're not going to plugevery hole all the time, but at
least just being aware of howsomeone's trying to rob you
makes it a little less likelythan that's going to happen,
right.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Agreed man.
It's kind of like I think backto what you said a few minutes
back is like you've got to have.
If you're not going to have, ifyou're not going to take the
time, put the tools in place andthe processes in place, you
probably shouldn't be in thisindustry.
It's kind of like if you don'twant to spend the money to get
your child the pads and theequipment they need to safely
(07:33):
play travel ice hockey, probablyshouldn't have them playing
travel ice hockey.
You know what I mean, so Allright.
Next question I'm a new brokerand looking for recommendations
on commonly used software,mainly TMS platforms and
accounting tools.
I think I've decided on ShipperCRM for my CRM, but I'd love to
hear your opinions andsuggestions.
(07:53):
Well, ben, you and I have bothgone through TMS related things
in the recent history, so theTMS and the accounting are going
to go hand in hand, because thevast majority of TMSs require
an external accounting system.
Here's what I'll tell you.
On the accounting side, wepersonally you and I use
(08:14):
QuickBooks Online for Freight360.
That's my broker just moving tofor our next TMS, no complaints
.
I think the desktop version.
I actually talked to QuickBooksyesterday.
The desktop version is stillaround.
It's kind of going obsolete,but that's more intended for
like companies that have totrack inventory, which we don't
(08:35):
have to do on the brokerage side.
So QuickBooks Online is great,yeah, what's the one from Oracle
?
No, great Plains is another.
It's a different one NetSuite.
Netsuite by Oracle is anotherreally good accounting system.
I have never used it.
I've heard raving reviews.
(08:56):
Now, the TMS totally depends onyour size, your budget, what
you're moving, size your budget,what you're moving.
What I would encourage you todo is to totally understand your
business and demo a lot of TMSsbased on exactly what you're
looking to do.
A salesperson will tell you alot of times, yeah, we could do
(09:18):
that.
And then an actual tech personinside will be like, no, it
doesn't work that way.
Right, like I've seenaccounting hurdles, commission
report, hurdles, um reportingjust like all kinds of stuff.
So, um, depending on whereyou're at it's, you know it just
(09:40):
depends, like do you wantweb-based or do you want, um,
software-based?
Another one is the pricingmodel.
I've seen three differentpricing, four different pricing
models this year as looking fornew TMSs.
One is the you pay for thelicense up front and you have it
forever, no upgrades, right?
(10:00):
Mccloud's an example of acompany like that.
I've seen the price per personper month, like price per user
per month.
That's a pretty common one.
A lot of companies have that.
I've seen the price per loadthat runs through there and I've
seen the price per based off ofrevenue, which I actually kind
(10:23):
of like those models where youcan basically, as you scale, um,
you pay more based on yourbusiness growing, not like if,
like.
So there was a couple that Italked to that were priced per
person per month and I was like,well, I'm like if one of my
branches hires 10 new people andthey know that they're hoping
one or two stick after twomonths, I'm like, and they,
(10:47):
let's say, hoping one or twostick after two months, I'm like
, and let's say they never eventouch the TMS or never move a
load, I'm like we still got topay for that Kind of like.
We get penalized for trying tohave a hiring class right,
whereas if it's based off theload count or the revenue count,
we only pay for it if theproduction comes through, and
that's why I kind of like thatflexibility of models like that.
But you see, you have to look atpricing model.
You have to look at what can itintegrate with?
(11:08):
Does it integrate in and out ofyour accounting system?
Does it have integrations withload boards?
Does it have integrations withyour carrier vetting, with
rating tools, with tracking?
There's a lot of good ones outthere.
There's a lot of really goodweb-based ones.
I there's a lot of really goodweb-based ones.
I'm not going to give like anoverall recommendation on one.
(11:28):
I mean I'll tell you that, like, if you look at our website,
we've recommended Rose, rocketand Ascend to a lot of newer
brokers.
I think they're a greatflexible option for folks that
are fairly new.
What's your thoughts here?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Need more information , just like you said.
Right, if you really want todig into this and reach out,
like we can do, like a shortcoaching agreement or something,
because, like you would want alot of details, like even what
you just said, like I couldthink of three examples that
could push you to either side orthe other, right, okay, if I'm
a brokerage and I'm hiring abunch of agents and seeing if
they want to work out, I want tobe price per load.
(12:01):
If I'm a small brokerage thatdoes a ton of drayage, I don't
need a lot of people and I don'twant to get price per load
volume, because I want per user,because one person can do a lot
more work than if they're doingspot freight in the van world.
Right, yeah, so like how andwhat you're moving really is
going to tell you which pricingmodels to your advantage.
But like the biggest thing iswhat you touch on is like you
(12:24):
really got to think about whatyou need to do with this.
Like you and I looked at onerecently and it's like, okay,
this one is not built for a lotof agents and a lot of
commission structures.
There are other ones that arebuilt really well for that, but
I've aren't really good withintegrations to load boards and
accounting software andfactoring software Right.
So you, you do kind of reallyneed to know a little bit more
(12:47):
about what section of theindustry you're in and how
you're structured.
I think, to pick the right one,I think it's really important
to ask a lot of questions and ifyou're new and you're just like
one or two people starting yourcompany, like to go with
freemium, go with like Ascend orRose Rockets freemium version.
It'll be enough to get youstarted.
Then you'll know what you likeabout it and what you don't.
(13:07):
Your next one will be a muchbetter decision.
The first one you pick, youalmost kind of don't know what
you don't know, so you just gotto use something.
And then, once you use itenough, you go boy, it'd be nice
if it had this.
And this is kind of a headacheand I really wish it did this.
And you and I have done thisdude over the years.
Like there's some that I'vedemoed and like this is
fantastic and then four monthsinto it I'm like this is dog
shit and I'm like I can'tbelieve I didn't look further
(13:30):
into this and this is terrible,but like it's hard to be able to
see all those things in a demo,like you really got to use
something for, like, honestly,like a couple of weeks probably
to really see what, andsometimes a couple of months
because, like your first coupleof weeks and a couple of months
are very different than whenyou're six months in and you're
like, wait a minute, I'd like tosee which of my customers are
(13:50):
the most profitable, which arethe least profitable, which of
my customers am I taking losseson?
Then you go to the reportingside, which you haven't looked
at, and you're like, wait aminute, it doesn't do any of
this.
They're like, oh well, buildyour own custom report.
(14:22):
And then it's like, okay, what?
And it's like I don't know.
We could literally talk for anhour on this, on things,
expectations versus reality,versus what you need versus what
are nice to have, and are theycapable or are they out of the
box able to do this?
Are they integrated with theother things you're purchasing?
Integration, to me, is a reallybig one, because that's where
you need to hire more people.
When one system doesn't talk toanother at all, you basically
need to put a human being thereor throw more hours at that
solution.
That, to me, is one of thethings I look at, probably the
most, I guess.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Agreed, agreed, all right.
Our last question here werecently started a freight
brokerage and I'm looking foradvice on where to find
professional, reliable brokeragents.
I'd looking for advice on whereto find professional, reliable
broker agents.
I'd also like feedback on howto structure their pay.
What's the current standardcompensation for agents and what
works best to help businessgrow?
Speaker 2 (14:54):
What's this question?
Scream to you every time youhear it.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Oh my God.
Well, what it screams to me isI want someone else to grow my
business for me instead of megrowing it myself.
But as a guy that has literallyI mean, I literally manage an
agent based company and I've hadthis conversation with numerous
people in the past and I'vehelped people through bringing
(15:20):
on their first agent just aslike a friendly courtesy and
what I find interesting.
So I'll answer their questionsand then I'll, then I'll give
you my, I'll give my honest takehere.
Ok, how do you structure, payfor an agent or no?
Where do you find them?
Well, you got to find, you gotto go where, where they're
hanging out.
So, if someone's looking for anew job, they probably have a
(15:42):
resume that's up on Indeed orZipRecruiter.
If they're, you said,professional and reliable, they
probably have a LinkedIn.
Right, we have recruiters atPierce that like, constantly are
looking for folks that are opento opportunities and kind of
talking about the agent modelwith Pierce and that's where
they're hanging out.
(16:03):
They're hanging out on LinkedIn, they're hanging out on Indeed,
ziprecruiter.
You got to be where the agents,the prospective agents, are.
Literally, if you could go on aload board and find a phone
number if they're posting loads.
They got freight.
They're a broker.
You can find them that way, Iguess.
(16:24):
Now how do you structure theirpay?
The common way is a commissionsplit.
You do them 1099.
You'll see some companies payusually a range of like 60% to
70% to their agents.
And you got to look at what arewe paying for?
What are are we paying for?
What are we not paying for?
Like we, we pay 70%, we don'tcharge our agents for anything,
(16:45):
but we also just we only wanttop notch people we don't want.
You know we're not.
We're not throwing wet pasta atthe wall and seeing what sticks
.
So my honest opinion is to havea to really, really, really
build out a good agent basedcompany.
There's a lot that goes intothe recipe.
Number one your company shouldalready be a successful
(17:07):
brokerage, because you shouldalready have yes.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
My answer to this question is no.
Get the business off the groundso you know how it should run,
where your risks are, before youdecide to bring on an agent,
because an agent has lessoversight and more risk to that
business.
And if you're just starting outand you're going to start
bringing on agents like youdon't know what you don't know,
which means your expectationshow you're going to set this up
(17:33):
are going to create so muchliability and risk to the
business you just started thatit's not worth it.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
The reality is, like anysuccessful agent based company
today likely started as asuccessful brokerage before it
pivoted to the agent model.
Okay, because before you pivotto the agent model, you have to
have the understanding of whatworks with customers, what works
(18:01):
with carrier compliance.
How does your accounting teamhandle-?
Day terms receivablesEverything right, loss claims.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
You have to know how the entire business runs before.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
You're like all right , let's pivot and grow it this
other way.
The next thing is the bestcompanies, the best agent-based
companies that do the best jobat bringing in new agents, have
very skilled recruiting focus.
Right An agent recruiter, LikeI have two of them Sales their
sole job.
These are guys that, like, havehad very successful sales
(18:32):
careers and they're just outthere like networking,
networking.
They're selling the model andthe business concept to someone.
You're not out there trying tooffer someone a salary.
You're asking them.
You're offering them anopportunity, yeah, but you're
(18:55):
asking them to change theirentire career to go straight
commission.
That's a hard sell.
So, um, you need a reallyskilled person that can do that.
And the last part is you have tolike knowing how to run and
manage an agent basedorganization is very difficult
because it can be done.
I mean, clearly, there's a lotof really really great companies
(19:17):
out there that do it.
And, and the company I workedfor in the past, like we, we
grew it agent based.
We grew it from like 60 or 40million to like 200 million by
the time I left there.
And I've taken the company I'mat now from zero to, while the
(19:38):
agent division zero to you, theagent division zero to way
higher a pretty good numberright In a matter of five or six
years.
So it takes a lot of work tomanage and train and you have to
turn over certain agents whenthings aren't working.
You have to retrain them.
(19:59):
You know there's it's a wholenother level, because you're not
their boss, they're not anemployee, it's a contractor and
it's a 1099 relationship, right,it's a partnership.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You have no oversight , no legal ability to oversight,
but yet they're representingthe business you own and have to
pay for their mistakes.
So you can't really tell themwhat to do.
But if they do something wrongyou got to pay for it.
Right, that's the risk and Iwould say that, like even just
W-2 working in an office versusW-2 brokerage remote has a lot
(20:34):
more risk to it when you can'tsee when people are showing up
what they're doing all day.
Are they doing the things youtrain them on?
Are they following the systems?
Because everyone goes like, oh,just put in software that makes
people do this Like you and Italked about this like this
morning.
No software I've ever seen isfoolproof to the point where
people can't end around it anddo it some other way.
That creates risk to yourbusiness and you kind of need to
(20:56):
understand those.
Otherwise, like there are somany things that can go wrong in
an agent program or with oneagent, if you don't understand
the business, you're bringingthem into customers paying their
bills, claims, theft, um,misrepresenting your business.
I mean those are just like twoor three large ones.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, too many times man, I cause, I think, a fraud
agents.
You know times, man, becausethen you get fraud agents, you
know, you get people that have agood intention and screw up,
and then you get people who comein with bad intentions.
And they successfully executeon their bad intentions.
That's my dog market.
All right, good questions, Keepthem coming.
Final thoughts Ben.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Whether you believe you can or believe you can't,
you're right.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And until next time go Bills.
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