June 9, 2023 • 49 mins
Do you know how crucial sleep is for your teenager's health, mental well-being, and overall success?
Discover the vital role of sleep in adolescents as I sit down with seasoned journalist, book author, and public speaker Lisa Lewis, who shares her personal journey and passion for advocating for teen mental health and the importance of sleep.
My guest was instrumental in CA's legislation on regulating school start times and is the author of the New York Times reviewed book "The Sleep-Deprived Teen".
Lisa and I discuss the biological shift in circadian rhythms during puberty and explore the challenges posed by early school start times for our teens to get the recommended 8 to 10 hours of sleep each night.
We dive deep into the impact of sleep deprivation on various aspects of our teens' lives, including
1. mental health,
2.learning, and
3.technology management.
We traverse through the lack of sleep and its link to increased anger, emotional regulation difficulties, and even suicidal tendencies.
Lisa provides valuable expertise and insight on this crucial topic, making this episode essential listening for parents, educators, and everyone concerned about teen well-being.
Puberty, hormonal changes, sleep and menstrual cycle are all focus areas in this enlightening discussion.
As takeaways, we discuss strategies for success and creating a healthy balance between technology and our lives, as well as the importance of prioritizing sleep for our teenagers and society as a whole.
Don't miss this engaging and informative episode, where we examine the critical role of sleep in the development and well-being of our teenagers, as well as the steps we can take to ensure they get the rest they need for a thriving future.
Every listener can appreciate the takeaways for not just teens, but for adults and our very young and growing minds alike! Remember, my goal is to offer solutions to real world issues and essentially sleep, mental health are great pillars to a sustainable living!
LEGAL DISCLAIMER: THIS PODCAST IS FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IS NOT MEDICAL ADVICE, NOR IS IT A SUBSTITUTE FOR MEDICAL ADVICE. CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN, THERAPIST FOR INDIVIDUAL CASE BY CASE NEEDS. NEIT
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vai (00:09):
Welcome to Freshleaf Forever, a podcast that gives
you fascinating insights weekafter week.
Here's your host, vai kumar.
Hey folks, welcome to anotherpodcast of Freshleaf Forever.
Today I have here with us LisaLewis, who is a seasoned and
(00:29):
versatile freelance journalist,content marketing writer, author
and public speaker dedicated toproviding clear, engaging
content tailored to her audience.
Lisa has written for TheAtlantic, the New York Times,
the Washington Post and, mostimportantly, is the author of
(00:50):
The New York Times Reviewed Book, the Sleep-Deprived Teen.
She has been featured on theToday Show, bbc Radio and
several podcast segments.
It gives me so much joy to haveLisa here on podcast Freshly
Forever.
Hey, lisa, how are you today?
Welcome to the podcast, thankyou.
(01:11):
Thank you so much for having me.
Oh, such a pleasure seeing youand getting to talk to you today
.
I know you're a huge advocateof teen mental health, the
importance of sleep in theirlives, matter of fact, anyone's
life correct, absolutely yeah.
And teen success, because teenthriving is a result of so many
(01:35):
factors, and one of which issleep, and that's of paramount
importance.
Let me begin and set somecontext here for the audience by
asking you what led you tofocus on the importance of sleep
.
Lisa Lewis (01:49):
Great question.
So I am a parenting journalist,as you know, and I am also a
parent, So oftentimes those tworoles overlap, and that was, in
fact, the case here, because theissue of teen sleep as it
relates to school start timesspecifically hit my radar when
(02:09):
it became an issue in my ownhousehold.
That was back in 2015.
So I have been immersed in thisissue now literally for the
last eight years.
But 2015 was when my oldest wasentering high school and at
that point our local high schoolstarted at 730 in the morning,
(02:29):
which is incredibly early.
It was the earliest he had everhad to go to school up until
that point And it just reallybecame obvious almost
immediately after his freshmanyear of high school started that
it was just too early all theway around.
So that is what spurred me toget involved and look more into
(02:51):
the issue of why our schoolstarted so early, Quickly found
out it was not unique to ourschool or our community.
This was the case incommunities around the country
and beyond the United States, Ishould say And my involvement
really just snowballed fromthere.
I started writing about it, gotreally involved in the issue,
ended up actually gettingheavily involved in our state
(03:13):
law here in California.
It was really an incrediblejourney and I absolutely could
not have foreseen how it was allgoing to unspool.
But as I got more involved 2015, my son's high school freshman
year being the catalyst Istarted writing more about it.
One of the articles that Iwrote was an op-ed that ran in
the Los Angeles Times thefollowing fall.
(03:36):
So fall of 2016, his sophomoreyear, he's still getting up and
having to go to school every dayat 7.30.
But the piece that I wrote wasan op-ed in the Los Angeles
Times called Why Schools ShouldStart Later in the Morning, And
that just so happened to end upbeing read by one of our
California state senators,Anthony Portantino.
And again, some of this wasluck, your happenstance.
(03:59):
He had a high schooler of hisown at that point, So he read
this in the paper resonated withhim enough that he decided to
have his staff look into theissue, ended up introducing a
bill on the topic.
I got swept up in that entirejourney and ended up testifying
in Sacramento and our statecapital on behalf of this bill,
(04:21):
And it just was so immersed forgosh.
It was two and a half years,really, from the time the bill
was introduced until it wassigned into law, which was 2019.
And then there wasimplementation window, So it
didn't actually go into effectuntil July of 2022.
As part of that whole processbeing immersed in this topic, I
(04:43):
was in contact with all of thesesleep researchers around the
country, And so my book sort ofcame out of that whole
experience.
And a bit of luck was afoothere, because my book came out
in June of 2022.
Our law in California went intoeffect in July of 2022.
Vai (05:00):
Oh, how nice, Yeah.
So I realized your personalexperience as a parent and your
experience with your son, orpersonally seeing what your son
was going through, kind of wentviral.
That op-ed in the LA Times sortof because it happened to catch
the eye of people that wereinvolved in decision making, or
(05:22):
impactful op-ed, i should saythat led to you writing Sleep
Deprived Team, that book, whichwas an outgrowth of your
advocacy.
So why don't you talk aboutyour book, sleep Deprived Team,
and why is sleep important forany individual?
more so the adolescent phaselaser?
Lisa Lewis (05:42):
Yes, And I think that is such a good point.
What a critical phaseadolescence is.
The amount of change that ourkids are going through during
those teen years is so immense.
I mean, we see it on theoutside.
They transform from childreninto adults.
You look at an 18-year-old andthey often look like adults.
(06:05):
They're not yet, though, ofcourse, because in fact they are
still undergoing so muchdevelopment that you can't see,
you know, the stuff going onunder the hood, the brain
development, all thetransformations taking place.
You know, again back to thatpoint, we look at them and they
look like many adults, butthey're really not, and they
don't yet have adult sleep needs.
(06:25):
They still have adolescentsleep needs, which are more so.
So, for instance, as an adult,we should be getting seven to
nine hours of sleep every singlenight.
Those are the officialrecommendations for our teens.
So up until age 18, they shouldbe getting eight to 10 hours
every single night, And so Ithink it starts with that of
just helping people understand,really, the amount of sleep that
(06:48):
our teens should be getting foroptimal functioning.
So, in terms of my book, what Itried to do was provide all
this information to parents andpresent it in a way that was
easy to understand and sort ofprovide the context for it.
So it was sort of truly, it wasthe book that I wish that I had
had back in 2015, when Oh,absolutely.
Vai (07:08):
Every parent right.
We all wrestle with this issue.
Lisa Lewis (07:11):
Absolutely, and there's so much that I think it
helps once you understand someof the basics of sleep, starting
with how much sleep our teensshould be getting, also
including really key aspectslike the fact that our teens are
actually on a different sleepschedule than we are as adults,
because at puberty their sleepschedule starts to shift later.
(07:33):
It's their circadian rhythmshifts, and what that means is
that they are no longer feelingsleepy as early as they used to,
nor are they feeling rested andready to wake up as early as
they used to.
So, as parents, if you've had asix year old who bounds out of
bed at six thirty, you know theycan be just ready to go right
(07:53):
at dawn, but your teen is notgoing to do the same thing, and
that is biologically based.
So you've got a couple of thesemajor truths when it comes to
teen sleep that, a they needeight to ten hours of sleep.
B they're on this later sleepschedule.
And then, c the final piece ofthis equation often is the
school start times, when they'reso early.
(08:15):
That makes it virtuallyimpossible for teens who aren't
feeling sleepy until later atnight to be able to get enough
sleep, because if they have towake too early in the morning,
chances are very, very good thatthey are not then able to get
those eight to ten hours ofsleep.
Vai (08:31):
Okay.
So what then happens when thealarm clock goes off?
Like there's always thisinclination to hit the snooze
button right, even for us adults, you know, like some of us are,
like you know, only very few ofus, i should say, are able to
jump out right out of bedfeeling like, okay, i'm ready
for the morning.
But, most of us tend to go forthat snooze button.
Lisa Lewis (08:54):
I'm glad you brought that up, because that is one of
the things that I do touch onin the book is when you look at
ways that you can help avoidsort of cutting into your sleep
more than you need to.
And unfortunately, using asnooze button actually is
cutting into your sleep morethan you need to, because that
extra amount of sleep that youget after you hit the snooze
button is negligible in terms ofthe overall whole And it's not
(09:16):
as high quality as it would havebeen if you hadn't hit the
snooze button at all and hadjust set your alarm clock for a
later time.
So there's that piece of it.
That said, the Awaking TooEarly really is an issue, and
that's why, when it comes to ourteens who are in middle school
and high school, and when theirschools are starting too early,
that is a major piece of theproblem.
(09:37):
It is not the only thingaffecting their sleep, but it is
a major one, and it is fairlystraightforward to address.
Their early wake times are tiedto their early school bells,
and so if you can adjust theschool bells, you can allow them
to be able to sleep later inthe morning.
Vai (09:56):
So do you think it's okay for elementary school kids to be
going early to school Becauseat that age they are able to
wake up early enough than middleschoolers or high schoolers?
Is that a correct understanding, lisa?
Lisa Lewis (10:11):
That's a great question.
I'm glad you brought that up,because, by and large, yes, that
is correct, in that ourelementary schoolers are on an
earlier schedule.
They have not yet had thecircadian rhythm shift that I
was mentioning, because theyhaven't yet had puberty, so, in
general, they are able to fallasleep earlier and to wake
earlier.
So what that means is that,oftentimes, when school
(10:33):
districts are looking atchanging their start times, they
have to look at not just themiddle and the high schools, but
often the elementary schoolstoo, because oftentimes, if they
are offering bus transportation, they're using a single fleet
of buses for an elementary,middle and high school, and so
they've instituted a tieredsystem of drop offs and pickups
(10:54):
so that they can get all thekids, you know, using those same
buses, sure, and so oftentimes,in a scenario like that, where
the middle or the high schoolersare going early, that means the
elementary schools are goinglater, and so, if that's the
case, they often can literallyjust flip flop.
The only caveat to that, though,is that you still don't want
(11:16):
elementary schoolers startingschool at the crack of dawn, and
there are, even now, highschools that I was astounded
when I did the research intothis they weren't starting just
as early as 730.
They were some starting at 7am.
So 7am is not good forelementary schoolers either.
I mean, i think there is thatcommon sense aspect that at some
point there is a point thatjust is simply too early across
(11:39):
the board.
Vai (11:40):
What, then, is like an ideal scenario, or like a good
middle ground, so to speak, is8am, like a fairly decent start
for all of them.
I know California now has thislaw, but what about the other
states?
and what about?
you know, this podcast reachesso many countries in the world,
so what then across the globe,would you suggest, is like a
(12:02):
decent start time, given all theresearch that you've put into
writing this sleep deprived teenbook.
Lisa Lewis (12:08):
Yeah, no, that's a great question, somewhat complex
answers.
So the first thing I would sayis, yeah, i'm based in
California in the United States,where we do now have,
california being the first andthe only state, as of right now,
that has a law setting minimumallowed start times for middle
and high schools.
(12:29):
So the official recommendationfrom the American Academy of
Pediatrics is that middle andhigh schools should start no
earlier than 830 because of theimpact on adolescent sleep and
therefore the impact that has onsuch a wide range of behaviors.
As you will know, that's middleand high school, that's not
elementary, and that has to dowith what we were just talking
(12:50):
about.
The elementary schoolers don'thave this circadian rhythm shift
and so, by and large, theyaren't as at risk for some of
this extreme mismatch betweentheir body clock and the school
start time.
There's a group that I've beenvery involved with called Start
School Later.
They are volunteer led.
There are chapters all over thecountry.
There actually are somechapters outside of the US as
(13:12):
well, and their general stanceon this is that 8 am really is a
good floor, that, as far aselementary school, that anyone
starting earlier than 8 that iswhen you have to start.
Looking at you know at whatpoint is it just too early.
The other thing I wanted tomention, though, is that school
start times and sleep areobviously an issue beyond just
the United States.
So, in broad terms, manyEuropean countries, the schools
(13:35):
already start later than they doin the US.
In many Asian countries,however, they start earlier, and
issues of sleep deprivation canbe even more of an issue, so
this really is something thathas much broader implications.
Vai (13:48):
Okay, given what you said, Lisa, what about the role of
sleep in our health, especiallyteen health, and, of course, the
ramifications of that onwhatever you know, academics,
whatever their life in general,the quality of life and, most
importantly, mental health?
So how is all this playing intoeverything?
(14:09):
the overall role of sleep inanyone's life, i think even as
children, as teens, tweens,prior to teenage, and then after
that as adults, we all need asleep, right?
We?
Lisa Lewis (14:23):
do?
We do, and in fact, overall wespend about one third of our
lives asleep, and that's becausesleep is essential.
You cannot function withoutenough sleep.
You literally cannot stay alive.
You know, at some point you canfunction longer without food
than you can without your bodyjust falling asleep because you
need sleep.
It's a very complex process.
(14:44):
I should know it And I am ajournalist, not a medical
professional, but I've had somany conversations with so many
of the researchers who delveinto this So well.
In broad terms, the biggesttakeaway is nobody does anything
any better as a result of beingsleep deprived.
So there is not one benefit,and when we don't get enough
sleep, it affects literallyevery aspect of our lives.
(15:06):
So for teens, for instance,there's so much in terms of
brain development that's goingon, which I mentioned, and a lot
of that does take place whenthey're sleeping.
When we sleep is also theprimary time that growth hormone
is released, which isresponsible for growth, as you
would expect, but it's alsoessential for healing from
(15:26):
injury and from illness, so ithas implications for immunity as
well.
Getting enough sleep is alsowhat helps keep the two hormones
that regulate our feelings ofhunger in proper balance leptin
and ghrelin.
So when we don't get enoughsleep we are more likely to
crave higher fat and highersugar foods.
So chronic sleep deprivationabsolutely does play into things
(15:48):
like obesity.
Sleep is important for cardiachealth.
It's important from a publicsafety perspective.
When you look at sleep depriveddrivers on the road and the
number of drowsy drive crashes,oh my gosh, yeah.
And then and that's not evengetting to the other big, big
one you mentioned, which ismental health, which is huge
Sleep absolutely is intertwinedwith mental health.
(16:09):
When you are sleep deprived itexacerbates depression, anxiety,
suicidality.
It intensifies our emotions.
We're not.
When we haven't gotten enoughsleep, we feel things more
intensely.
And then, when you get back toteens versus adults, the
difference for us as adults iswe've already completed that
major phase of brain developmentthat goes on during adolescence
(16:31):
.
So we have a fully formedprefrontal cortex, which is
what's responsible for executivefunctioning and impulse control
and everything associated withthat, whereas for our teens that
process is still in process, sothey don't yet have the same
breaks, if you will, emotionalbreaks, to temper that increased
(16:52):
intensive emotion that comesfrom being sleep.
Vai (16:56):
Oh my gosh, I never realized there's so much to it.
I just thought it was allhabitual and that some of us
were inherently early birds andsome of us were, like you know,
late night owls And well, andjust to interrupt that that is
still true.
Lisa Lewis (17:12):
There is still a wide range of human variability,
so it is indeed true that thereare some people who are
naturally going to gravitate toone end or the other.
That being said, though, youknow, for the vast majority of
us, that range which, again,it's a two hour range, for
adults it's seven to nine hoursof sleep, for teens it's eight
(17:32):
to 10.
So, recognizing that the bulkof us really do fall within that
range And, yes, there can beoutlayers on either end but to
recognize that, trying toconvince yourself that you can
get by unless sleep doesn't makeit so, So true, and there are,
scientifically speaking, thereare different stages of sleep,
(17:53):
right, like REM sleep andwhatnot.
Vai (17:56):
So if one doesn't go to bed reasonably on time in terms of
the duration of sleep that onecan get the seven to nine or the
eight to 10 that you're talkingabout then I guess several
things accrue from it in termsof the negative impact, right,
if one doesn't get the amount ofsleep that's necessary and the
(18:18):
different stages of sleep, Sothat way you know, you're much
more relaxed in your when you'rein like deep sleep mode, right,
say like a third or fourth hourof sleep when you're sleeping
at night.
So I guess, scientifically, theamount of rest and the nature
of rest that one gets becomestoo significant of a deal here.
(18:39):
So I guess people don't evenrealize the impact that sleep
has in our lives, don't youagree?
Lisa Lewis (18:47):
Yes, absolutely, and it's actually kind of well
funny I guess isn't the rightword but up until a couple
hundred years ago it was justsort of thought of that, like
you were sort of unconsciouswhen you were asleep And now we
know how much is taking placewhile we're sleeping.
So, as you mentioned, there arestages of sleep that we cycle
through throughout the entirenight And one thing related to
(19:09):
that that I think is importantto mention again, back to teens.
So the stages there are threestages of non REM sleep And then
there's REM sleep, the rapideye movement phase.
Our REM sleep actually more ofit takes place during the second
half of the night, just the wayour cycles play out over the
course of the night.
So what that means is for ourteens, or for anyone really
who's being forced to wake tooearly you are quite literally
(19:31):
cutting into the amount of REMsleep you get.
They're all essential stages,but REM is when.
It's when we dream, but it'salso when our brains are
assessing and integratinginformation and forging new
insights.
So that's the stage that isspecifically most often being
cut into when our teens have towake too early.
Vai (19:51):
Oh, that's not good at all.
I'm just very curious, lisa.
Are schools taught times thesole reason why teens are sleep
deprived?
What about the academicpressure and the load that the
kids seem to have to undertake?
these days?
There are a plethora of APclasses that they all are taking
(20:11):
, right So?
and I know of kids that havedone like 14 or 16 APs in the
term of their high school and,gosh, i'm like Hey, did you even
get enough sleep during ourhigh school?
So how do we just address allof this and make sure that teen
mental health and teenwell-being is preserved?
Lisa Lewis (20:31):
That is such a big piece of it.
I'm so glad you mentioned that.
To answer your question, havinghealthy start times it's a
necessary but not sufficientcondition for our teens to get
enough sleep, because whenschools start too early, as I
mentioned, it makes it virtuallyimpossible for them to get the
eight to 10 hours they need.
I mean, if you just do the math, if they've got to wake up at
(20:51):
530 in the morning for them tohave gotten eight to 10 hours,
they'd have to go to bed at aridiculously early hour.
So that's what happens on themorning front in terms of what
is affecting what time they wakeup.
It is most directly affected byschool start times.
There's one other piece thatcan play in and that's before
school stuff like sportspractices etc.
Which gets to your point all ofthe activities they're doing in
(21:13):
addition to their workloads,and this whole idea of really
taking a hard look at whetherthey're over scheduled, because
that too is what oftencontributes to them going to bed
very, very late 1am or laterAnd you do that And again, that
is absolutely going to affectyour ability to get a good
night's sleep.
I can recall even when my sonwas in high school their high
(21:35):
school day was six periods And Iremember him telling me one
time about a kid he knew who wastaking eight AP classes.
So every single class periodplus two more on their own, and,
yes, i think that that can beexcessive.
It is difficult because thereason why kids are doing that,
and why parents often are insupport of it, is because of
(21:55):
this pressure to get into a goodschool and to be successful.
But you reach the point ofdiminishing returns.
You need to look at how is that, as you said, how is that
impacting your sleep Andtherefore, how is that impacting
your mental health?
And you really do need to takeall of that into account when
you look at all the stuff onyour teen's plate.
(22:18):
Taking one more AP class is notgoing to make or break their
future, but it could actually bethe thing that pushes them over
the edge.
Vai (22:26):
Exactly, and in fact there are far-reaching consequences of
sleep deprivation that we allthink getting them into a good
school and getting themsuccessful is the key goal here,
but then down the road, thequality of life, like you, even
touched upon immunity and somuch more that could get
impacted because of sleepdeprivation.
Right, and there's organsdetoxifying at certain times of
(22:50):
the night and into the earlymorning and stuff like that.
So we are on a schedule,circadian, rhythm-wise, and to
disturb that is like playingwith mother nature, i guess.
From the standpoint of helpingteens thrive, how do you think
sleep impacts that?
Sometimes they tend to getangry, their emotions play out.
(23:11):
Is that a manifestation of lackof sleep?
Lisa Lewis (23:16):
Absolutely.
It can be related to that,because sleep is important for
emotional regulation.
So what that means is, when wehaven't gotten enough sleep, our
emotions run hotter and we feelthings more intensely.
So that's not just our teens,that's us too, i mean.
I know for myself if I haven'tgotten enough sleep, i'm more
crabby, i'm not as much fun tobe around.
(23:37):
Oh yeah, so that's just sort oftrue across the board for us as
humans.
Vai (23:42):
I can feel myself in that situation.
Lisa Lewis (23:45):
So yeah, when you haven't gotten enough sleep
you're just more moody, you'reharder to get along with, but
you feel things more intensely.
That can include things likeanger.
The difference, though, for ourteens versus us as adults is
having that intensity of emotioncan be tempered in the adult
brain by the role of theprefrontal cortex, which is seat
(24:07):
of executive functioning andimpulse control and helps us
kind of control all of that,whereas in our teens their
brains are still in the midst ofthis massive phase of brain
development, so they don't yethave those same sort of
cognitive tools to draw on.
They're not as strong or asable to temper the emotions in a
(24:29):
teen who hasn't gotten enoughsleep as in an adult who hasn't
gotten enough sleep.
Vai (24:33):
Okay.
In other words, rest improvespositivity and their ability to
just respond with more vibrancyto any situation.
It's all a reflection of thequality of sleep that they get.
Lisa Lewis (24:44):
correct Well being well rested absolutely improves
your emotional resiliency.
It can improve your outlook,but it also helps temper the
intensity of some of thosenegative emotions.
Vai (24:55):
Yeah, thanks for clarifying on that.
And it's just, we all tend tolabel kids as hey, you know what
that's attention deficit, allit's this or that, or you know,
without even realizing theunderlying cause of it all And,
very basically, that could bethe lack of sleep, right?
So we don't know.
Other factors may becontributing to someone acting a
(25:17):
certain way, but then I thinkwe all need to realize that as a
society, we need to just focuson the quality of sleep that we
get Back in a moment with ourguest on Fresh Leaf Forever.
Whatever is happening to tweensand teens, given that they are
(25:43):
sleep deprived, is that crime?
is that substance use?
or is that they're eatingpattern?
And you mentioned teen drivers.
That's a great point.
So what are the actually thecrucial aspects that we need to
focus here?
Lisa Lewis (25:59):
I think all of those are important to be aware that
sleep impacts and sleep doesimpact crime because, again, it
lowers self control, itincreases susceptibility to peer
influence.
I would focus, though there'stwo I'd love to highlight.
One is driving, but the secondis getting back to mental health
and specifically, suicidality,which I think you know.
(26:20):
You can have a kid who,outwardly, is successful, is
getting good grades, but youknow the mental health
accumulative impact of sleepdeprivation is so, so crucial to
understand.
You know, again, as I mentioned, in teens still developing
brains, the threshold for makinga decision or acting on it is
lower, and so, when it comes tosuicidality or actual suicide
(26:42):
attempts, that's actually prettyrelevant.
The other piece is that there'sa dose response relationship
when it comes to sleep andsuicide risk.
In fact, there was a metaanalysis of studies I referred
to in the book it came out in2018, and they looked at all
these different studies And whatthey found was that, for every
hour increase in sleep, the riskof planning suicide went down
(27:04):
by 11%.
Right, that's just a huge number, absolutely, and so really to
be aware of this that this isnot something to be taken
lightly, particularly when weconsider the immense mental
health challenges of the lastfew years.
The fact that our teens havebeen suffering and getting
(27:25):
enough sleep is one way to helpthem, sort of provide a buffer
against that.
When you get enough sleep, itprovides more resilience, just
as something so essential forour teens.
The other piece you mentionedwas driving, and that, too, is
key because that is a publichealth issue for our teens and
for anyone else who's on theroads when they're behind the
(27:46):
wheel and sleep deprived.
It's not safe for any driver tobe behind the wheel when they
haven't gotten enough sleep, andthat's because when you are
sleep deprived, it makes youslower to respond to
circumstances that are going on.
It affects your judgment.
You can also literally fallasleep.
You can have what's called amicrosleep, which is where you
fall sleep for maybe a fractionof a second, but let's say
(28:08):
you're behind the wheel, yourcar is still moving forward.
That's incredibly dangerous.
Vai (28:12):
Oh no, that's the last thing one would want, right Well
?
Lisa Lewis (28:15):
and then think about all of that on top of the fact
that the driver may only be 16or 17, and so they're still new
drivers and they don't yet havethe same judgment that comes
with experience.
So it really is a concern whenyou talk about drowsy driving.
The combination of being a new,inexperienced driver and
(28:36):
somebody who's sleep deprived isjust a double whammy.
Vai (28:39):
I mean totally agree with you.
That's just such a great pointthat you brought up there.
What about the focus onlearning?
and how does lack of sleepimpact both students and
educators?
I like because, for theteachers, the attention span of
the students that they get inthe classroom and then that
(28:59):
reflecting on the grades, allthat is like a huge factor,
right From their performance andtheir ability to deliver what
they want to.
So how do we narrow thiseducation equity gap?
Lisa Lewis (29:12):
You are right that when you have kids who are
sleepy in class, it absolutelyis impacting them.
It's impacting the teachers too.
There were several teachers Ispoke with who were very
familiar with having kidsliterally falling asleep in
class, not only, obviously, as akid who is fast asleep, not
(29:32):
learning, but it kind of putsmore pressure on the teachers to
keep them awake, which arguablythey're not trying to do a
lecture that's going to puttheir kids to sleep.
But when a kid shows up who'ssleep deprived, they shouldn't
have to be like doing things,like yelling and bouncing and
clapping and doing things tokeep the kids awake.
(29:52):
So the kids who are fallingasleep on their desk clearly are
not learning, but even the oneswho are there and their eyes
are open, they haven't literallyfallen asleep but nothing's
penetrating.
Well, clearly that's impactingtheir ability to learn as well.
So there are actually three keyways that being sleep deprived
impacts learning And this issomething that's been studied
(30:13):
quite a lot.
But specifically, the researcherMary Karsgaden has been very,
very influential in this wholearea of adolescent sleep
research And she describes itreally as the three ways are
acquiring new information,retaining that information and
then retrieving that information.
So what that means is acquiring.
well, that's when they'relearning, that's when they're
(30:34):
sitting in class and learningthe information, or it's when
they're reading their textbookat home and trying to learn
something new.
The retention piece has to dowith everything that goes on
when they're asleep, becausethat is when our brain processes
and assesses and stores all ofthe information that we gather
throughout the course of the day.
So if you're not getting enoughsleep, it impacts that, and
(30:55):
then, finally, if you're sleepdeprived, you're trying to
retrieve that information So toremember what you learned in
order to take a test, or to beable to remember what you
learned in class because youneed to apply it in order to be
able to do your homework.
So all of that is affected bynot getting enough sleep.
Vai (31:12):
That makes me even wonder the method that kids adopt in
terms of their learning style.
Some of them tend to think, oh,last minute, I can just sit and
cram through this material andgo to an exam.
So again, it's like studyhabits, consistent learning and
sleep.
That is when you even processall this information and you're
(31:34):
able to retrieve and thenpresent it at the time of your
exam.
Right, It just makes so muchsense when you put it across
here.
What about socioeconomic status, gender inequality, whatever
that's going on in our society,how sleep quality, duration, how
it all differs when it comes toputting our society together,
(31:57):
how we look at it overall andwhatever is?
the reality, in fact.
Lisa Lewis (32:02):
Yeah, And I have a whole chapter on that called not
all teens sleep the same,because that's exactly what you
were just getting at.
There are so many other factorsthat can play in And again
these are all huge topics.
So I sort of give an overviewin the book and we're going to
give an even more distilledversion of it here.
Just very quickly and verybroadly.
The first, looking at biologicalsex, so biological female
(32:26):
versus male.
And I say that because,unfortunately, females do tend
to sleep worse than males Andthis begins to become apparent
at puberty.
Up until that point they reallydon't see much in the way of
sleep differences.
But starting at puberty,females are at higher risk of
insomnia and also take longer tofall asleep.
(32:46):
But the real thing that Iwanted to highlight today is the
impact of the monthly menstrualcycle.
Hormones are very, verypowerful and they do affect
sleep.
When you think about in the US,about half of all girls have
gotten their periods by age 12.
So just to give a sense of thescope of this and the fact that
for so many girls and women whoare of reproductive age, they
(33:10):
can get PMS, they can get cramps.
All of that affects your abilityto get a good night's sleep.
That's a really big thing tokeep in mind.
There are also aspects relatedto sexual and gender minority
teens, so LGBTQ plus.
Now, a lot of thisunfortunately happens to be
rooted in discrimination.
But if you are the target ofdiscrimination or your group is
(33:33):
the target of discrimination,whether or not you personally
have experienced it, that isalso going to affect your sleep.
Same thing for teens of color.
They have found teens andadults of color
disproportionately sleep worsethan their counterparts.
And again, a lot of this isdiscrimination.
And when I say discrimination,it can also be everything from
microaggressions on up.
(33:54):
But if you have been the targetof that, let's say that affects
your sleep that night And thenthe next day you wake up less
well equipped to deal withanything like that that you may
encounter, because being wellrested is what provides you with
that emotional resiliency.
And then you also mentionedpoverty and neighborhood
environment, which again canimpact your ability because of
(34:17):
things like noise.
If it's noisy in your livingspace or outside your building,
if it's crowded, if you haven'thad enough to eat, the effect
your ability to get a goodnight's sleep.
You can have more than one ofthese at play in your life If
you are a female and you livesomewhere where it's crowded or
(34:40):
whatever I mean.
These are all factors that canoverlay one on top of the other,
and all of them are, above andbeyond everything else we've
been talking about, alreadyaffecting sleep.
Vai (34:50):
So beautifully brought out there, Lisa.
What about sports performance?
So many of our teens these daysare playing sports.
They just want to go on to playvarsity sports and then NCAA
division 1, 2, 3, whatever itmay be, collegiate athletes,
right, So?
and I have one of my own incollege, So I know what it
(35:13):
entails to be an athlete.
What about sports performancewhen it comes to what we are
talking about here in terms ofsleep deprivation or the
importance of sleep for anathlete to be able to perform
well in?
his or her sport and also inwhatever else they are doing in
life.
Right The academic side of it.
Lisa Lewis (35:32):
Absolutely, for teens who are playing sports.
There's a couple of differentthings that I want to mention.
The first is absolutely, sleepis a competitive advantage.
So, as an athlete, you thinkabout your nutrition.
You know you think about allthese other aspects.
Sleep is also one of those areasto be concentrating on and it
really has become much morewidely known as an essential
(35:55):
aspect to consider over the lastdecade or so.
And that's because when you'resleep deprived, it affects your
coordination, it affects yourresponse time, it affects your
learning ability, so to rememberpatterns or whatever it is
you're being taught by yourcoach.
Also, if you're sleep deprived,it increases your risk for
injury.
So there's that piece of it.
And then you need enough sleep,because sleep is essential
(36:19):
during the recovery process.
So if you've been injured, butalso just after a hard workout,
it's essential for being able torecover properly.
So there's all that at play.
Then you know there are otheraspects to think about too.
Some sports have before schoolpractices, so then you're
talking about most often cuttinginto your sleep.
So that can be a factor, andthat may be something for
(36:41):
parents of teens in particularto be evaluating when they're
looking at their kids overallschedule, Because having to get
up at 5 am to get in the poolevery day, that actually can be
pretty harmful when you thinkabout it from a sleep
deprivation standpoint.
And then, of course, this wholeother aspect we were talking
about being overloaded and thedrive to succeed.
You know, being an athlete iswonderful and fulfilling And,
(37:05):
yes, it can be something that,you know, kids continue with in
college, but also to bear inmind that that is probably not
going to be their ultimatecareer path.
So, when they are sacrificingso much to do that, to be aware
of all these other aspects too,Oh, makes total sense, And
that's a note to me as well as aparent.
Vai (37:25):
But hey, there's one thing, the passion side of it, And
then there's one thing, thereality side of it.
Right, I guess it's a balancingact, And how will we all do it
determines the quality of lifethat we ultimately tend to get.
What about the role of us likeparents, educators, coaches,
overall role of friends and thesupport system in society in
(37:49):
ensuring that teens get bettersleep and how can we help them
thrive?
What are the factors?
And, in fact, we all live in anage of technology, So I know
you have a whole chapterdedicated to it in your book.
So what's the impact oftechnology on sleep and how
better can we help teens thrive?
Lisa Lewis (38:09):
Lisa, yeah, i'm not even sure where to begin because
all of those are huge,important aspects, but let's so,
let's just focus on tech rightnow, because that is such a huge
one, it's omnipresent, and thatis something where parents can
absolutely have a role.
It's a little tricky becauseit's here to stay.
It isn't as if it's tech versusno tech.
(38:30):
I mean it's definitely, it'somnipresent.
It's how our kids do theirhomework.
You know how they turn inassignments, and so that is
something teachers actually canhave a role in, because if an
assignment isn't due until 11.59pm, obviously that's kind of
encouraging kids to stay up lateand turn it in late.
So that's one thing perhapsthat the schools can look at.
But as parents, we need to bemindful of ideally not having
(38:55):
them wait till the last minuteto do assignments, because
that's one one reason whythey're they're online.
But then also looking at theother ways and reasons that our
kids are online, and that'swhere things like social media
come into play, and again,that's not all bad.
I mean, social media is anessential part of our kids'
relationships.
It's how they stay in contact.
(39:17):
Same way, i used to talk on thetelephone for hours when I was
in high school.
So now you know that's part ofwhat being online is.
It's staying connected withtheir friends, and to recognize
that there is a very valid placefor that.
So the challenge, though, iswhen it's too much, and when
it's too much can mean a numberof things, and again, this is
(39:37):
sort of just a quick overview,but it can be too much based on
their mental state, becauseobviously there's, you know, the
whole fear of missing out, andthere's the kind of feedback
that can be negative they may begetting from being online.
There's also just the sheeramount of time they're online
and how that can affect sleep.
So that's where parents canalso play a role.
So, when you think about whatare some of the best practices
(40:00):
that we can implement in ourhomes, so this is where there
are actually official guidelines.
So the American Academy ofPediatrics recommends no tech
use one hour before bedtime, andthey also recommend no tech
devices left in the bedroomovernight.
So those would be the bestpractices.
Now, that being said, irecognize that's sometimes
easier to say than it is to do.
(40:22):
Even so, it's good, i think, tobe aware of those and to work
toward those.
When it comes to the no techuse one hour before bedtime.
That's also because when you'reonline, it's revving you up.
Usually what you're doing isstimulating and engaging And
it's not helping you get readyto go to sleep.
(40:42):
So that's where, ideally, youwant to turn off your devices.
You want to have something elsethat you're doing, some set of
activities that you do.
That's sort of a wind downroutine And that's for us as
adults, that's for our teams todo for themselves.
It's sort of like what we didfor our kids when they were
young, but encouraging them tocome up with some kind of way to
(41:03):
help wind down and prepare forbed every single night.
Just because you can't turn offyour brain like the way you
flick a switch doesn't work thatway.
You have to have sometransition time between just
that being productive mode ofdoing your homework or, if
you're an adult, being on emailand doing all that stuff.
You can't just turn it off andexpect that you're abruptly
going to be able to fall asleep.
You need to have an endingpoint for that and have
(41:26):
something to help you make thattransition.
Vai (41:29):
Oh well, yeah, that fear of missing out that you pointed
out.
When it comes to social mediause, i think that's across the
board.
Even elementary school kidsnowadays are starting to have
phones, and so the tweens andteens, no wonder.
And even adults.
We all feel like, oh okay, ineed to be part of the
conversation.
So we all have that in somesense or the other.
(41:52):
But then it's dependent on whatlimits we set ourselves.
I think every app there doesallow for pointers on letting us
know that, hey, you havereached the limit that you have
set for yourself for the day.
So that is doable, and I guessthat's where the communication
within the family has to happenas well, in terms of, hey, you
(42:14):
know what?
this was how my day was, thiswas how your day was.
So we are not forced to juststay on social media for the
sake of even company, right, andnow to focus more on helping
teens thrive.
How else can we help teensthrive other than, okay, the
limits on how we use technologyor how best can we use
(42:36):
technology, because it just has,at this point, become a
necessary evil, right?
So it really has.
Yeah, the school start timesand the strategies for success
We also talked about that, theworkload, etc.
Is there anything else that youwould like to share in terms of
where we are today and what tofocus on going forward, lisa?
(42:57):
that way we can help teensthrive.
Lisa Lewis (43:00):
You're a parent I am too and we know just it's hard.
you know it's challenging.
They are going through so muchAnd as a parent, you know
there's a lot to take intoaccount.
So I think there are severaltakeaways from what we've talked
about.
The first, when it comes tohelping our teens get enough
sleep, is just kind ofrecognizing how essential that
is for them that they should begetting eight to 10 hours, how
(43:22):
important that is for theiremotional resiliency, their
mental health, their schoolperformance across the board.
recognizing that start times,what time the school day starts,
really does have a major pieceto play in that equation, and
ideally every state eventuallywill enact a law like California
is such a straightforward wayto look at what are the things
(43:43):
that they're impacting theirsleep.
But then for us as parentsreally to focus on what other
things we can help influence Andthat is absolutely the over
scheduling piece that we talkedabout, because that really
really can cut into sleep whenkids have too many hours
allocated not just to being inschool but to homework and all
(44:03):
these other extracurricularsthey're doing, and you do need
to still carve out time forthings like eating,
conversations with family andfriends.
So just to look at are theyperhaps over scheduled and how
to address that.
The tech guidelines And then Ithink probably the overall one
which covers all this, is justhow to make sleep a priority
(44:24):
overall at the family level.
So for our kids to see that wealso are making sleep a priority
, we are doing things like notbeing online in bed at night.
we are trying to get enoughsleep.
I think that is probably theoverarching message is just to
make sleep a family priority.
Vai (44:43):
Oh beautiful, that's very well said.
What about the US versus thescenario in rest of the globe,
right Overall, do you think as asociety, we need to make a
shift and there needs to beadvocacy efforts in terms of,
say, school start times andseveral other things?
you know from an athleticstandpoint how coaches are
(45:04):
dealing with the kids in termsof practice hours and whatnot.
do you think we are verydifferent as a society in terms
of how the rest of the worldhandles it?
Lisa Lewis (45:15):
You know, i have to say I'm not as familiar with the
practices in other parts of theworld, with the exception of
start times, where I do know, asI mentioned, that in general
many European countries theschools do tend to start a bit
later than in the US, whereas inmany countries in Asia they're
actually starting earlier andsome of this pressure to succeed
(45:35):
can be even more pronounced.
The amount of sleep that weneed doesn't vary across borders
.
Teens across the globe aregoing to function better if
they're getting eight to 10hours of sleep.
The specific factors making itdifficult for them to do that
may vary based on where theylive, but it doesn't change the
reality that they still need toget enough sleep, Hey, no matter
(45:58):
what at the end of the day, andno matter culturally how
different we are as human beingsacross the globe, we all do the
same things, and we all need towake up in the morning, we all
need to go to bed at night andthen we all need to do our thing
.
Vai (46:13):
My goal is to focus on a sustainable future and to ensure
that we preserve our planet.
I feel that mental health andseveral other factors and how we
nurture our younger generationplays a major role in how we are
going to help them build abetter planet for themselves.
(46:36):
How can we emphasize this aswhy and how sleep is important
for a sustainable future andwell-being?
Oh my goodness.
Lisa Lewis (46:47):
Well, i think, just in the broadest sense, that we
are raising the next generationof leaders.
Being well rested is part ofthem being healthy and enabling
them to become productivemembers of society.
We know, too, that being wellrested helps with creativity.
(47:08):
It helps with our behaviorsacross the board.
So I think being well rested isa benefit for all of us.
Vai (47:15):
Oh, and then think with clarity to be able to do
everything.
So whatever they need tocontribute or however they can
contribute to our society and toour planet.
So thank you so much for thisfascinating conversation.
I'm sure many, many parents,many tweens, teens, would
(47:36):
benefit from this immensely, andI encourage everyone to read
this fascinating book SleepDeprived Teen by Lisa Lewis.
Lisa Lewis (47:47):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, the book is called TheSleep Deprived Teen.
I do actually use my middleinitial just because it's a
relatively common name, so it'sLisa L Lewis And then the book
is The Sleep Deprived Teen.
And I just wanted to thank youfor having me on your podcast to
talk about this and justhearing you lay out your reasons
for doing the podcast.
(48:07):
I mean, i'm just such a fan ofall of that And I appreciate
everything that you do, so thankyou so much for having me.
Vai (48:14):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you, and would you liketo add anything else here?
I would make sure to include inmy show notes links to your
website and to the book andeverything that waits handy for
the listeners, but would youlike to add your social media
handle or anything else?
Lisa Lewis (48:34):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, the website is www.
Lisal Lewiscom And on socialmedia Twitter and Instagram you
can find me at Lewis Lisa.
Vai (48:47):
L, And that's L-E-W-I-S Yes .
Lisa Lewis (48:52):
L-E-W-I-S-L-I-S-A-L Lewis, lisa L.
Vai (48:57):
Perfect, perfect.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to join us here on the
podcast And we look forward tocatching up with you again in
the future.
Wonderful, thank you again forhaving me.
Okay, and listeners, as always,follow the podcast.
Rate the podcast, leave areview from your podcast app of
(49:17):
choice And until next time withyet another interesting guest
and yet another interestingtopic.
It's me Vai saying so long.
Welcome to Freshleaf Forever, a podcast that gives
you fascinating insights weekafter week.
Here's your host, vai kumar.
Hey folks, welcome to anotherpodcast of Freshleaf Forever.
Today I have here with us LisaLewis, who is a seasoned and
(00:29):
versatile freelance journalist,content marketing writer, author
and public speaker dedicated toproviding clear, engaging
content tailored to her audience.
Lisa has written for TheAtlantic, the New York Times,
the Washington Post and, mostimportantly, is the author of
(00:50):
The New York Times Reviewed Book, the Sleep-Deprived Teen.
She has been featured on theToday Show, bbc Radio and
several podcast segments.
It gives me so much joy to haveLisa here on podcast Freshly
Forever.
Hey, lisa, how are you today?
Welcome to the podcast, thankyou.
(01:11):
Thank you so much for having me.
Oh, such a pleasure seeing youand getting to talk to you today
.
I know you're a huge advocateof teen mental health, the
importance of sleep in theirlives, matter of fact, anyone's
life correct, absolutely yeah.
And teen success, because teenthriving is a result of so many
(01:35):
factors, and one of which issleep, and that's of paramount
importance.
Let me begin and set somecontext here for the audience by
asking you what led you tofocus on the importance of sleep
.
Lisa Lewis (01:49):
Great question.
So I am a parenting journalist,as you know, and I am also a
parent, So oftentimes those tworoles overlap, and that was, in
fact, the case here, because theissue of teen sleep as it
relates to school start timesspecifically hit my radar when
(02:09):
it became an issue in my ownhousehold.
That was back in 2015.
So I have been immersed in thisissue now literally for the
last eight years.
But 2015 was when my oldest wasentering high school and at
that point our local high schoolstarted at 730 in the morning,
(02:29):
which is incredibly early.
It was the earliest he had everhad to go to school up until
that point And it just reallybecame obvious almost
immediately after his freshmanyear of high school started that
it was just too early all theway around.
So that is what spurred me toget involved and look more into
(02:51):
the issue of why our schoolstarted so early, Quickly found
out it was not unique to ourschool or our community.
This was the case incommunities around the country
and beyond the United States, Ishould say And my involvement
really just snowballed fromthere.
I started writing about it, gotreally involved in the issue,
ended up actually gettingheavily involved in our state
(03:13):
law here in California.
It was really an incrediblejourney and I absolutely could
not have foreseen how it was allgoing to unspool.
But as I got more involved 2015, my son's high school freshman
year being the catalyst Istarted writing more about it.
One of the articles that Iwrote was an op-ed that ran in
the Los Angeles Times thefollowing fall.
(03:36):
So fall of 2016, his sophomoreyear, he's still getting up and
having to go to school every dayat 7.30.
But the piece that I wrote wasan op-ed in the Los Angeles
Times called Why Schools ShouldStart Later in the Morning, And
that just so happened to end upbeing read by one of our
California state senators,Anthony Portantino.
And again, some of this wasluck, your happenstance.
(03:59):
He had a high schooler of hisown at that point, So he read
this in the paper resonated withhim enough that he decided to
have his staff look into theissue, ended up introducing a
bill on the topic.
I got swept up in that entirejourney and ended up testifying
in Sacramento and our statecapital on behalf of this bill,
(04:21):
And it just was so immersed forgosh.
It was two and a half years,really, from the time the bill
was introduced until it wassigned into law, which was 2019.
And then there wasimplementation window, So it
didn't actually go into effectuntil July of 2022.
As part of that whole processbeing immersed in this topic, I
(04:43):
was in contact with all of thesesleep researchers around the
country, And so my book sort ofcame out of that whole
experience.
And a bit of luck was afoothere, because my book came out
in June of 2022.
Our law in California went intoeffect in July of 2022.
Vai (05:00):
Oh, how nice, Yeah.
So I realized your personalexperience as a parent and your
experience with your son, orpersonally seeing what your son
was going through, kind of wentviral.
That op-ed in the LA Times sortof because it happened to catch
the eye of people that wereinvolved in decision making, or
(05:22):
impactful op-ed, i should saythat led to you writing Sleep
Deprived Team, that book, whichwas an outgrowth of your
advocacy.
So why don't you talk aboutyour book, sleep Deprived Team,
and why is sleep important forany individual?
more so the adolescent phaselaser?
Lisa Lewis (05:42):
Yes, And I think that is such a good point.
What a critical phaseadolescence is.
The amount of change that ourkids are going through during
those teen years is so immense.
I mean, we see it on theoutside.
They transform from childreninto adults.
You look at an 18-year-old andthey often look like adults.
(06:05):
They're not yet, though, ofcourse, because in fact they are
still undergoing so muchdevelopment that you can't see,
you know, the stuff going onunder the hood, the brain
development, all thetransformations taking place.
You know, again back to thatpoint, we look at them and they
look like many adults, butthey're really not, and they
don't yet have adult sleep needs.
(06:25):
They still have adolescentsleep needs, which are more so.
So, for instance, as an adult,we should be getting seven to
nine hours of sleep every singlenight.
Those are the officialrecommendations for our teens.
So up until age 18, they shouldbe getting eight to 10 hours
every single night, And so Ithink it starts with that of
just helping people understand,really, the amount of sleep that
(06:48):
our teens should be getting foroptimal functioning.
So, in terms of my book, what Itried to do was provide all
this information to parents andpresent it in a way that was
easy to understand and sort ofprovide the context for it.
So it was sort of truly, it wasthe book that I wish that I had
had back in 2015, when Oh,absolutely.
Vai (07:08):
Every parent right.
We all wrestle with this issue.
Lisa Lewis (07:11):
Absolutely, and there's so much that I think it
helps once you understand someof the basics of sleep, starting
with how much sleep our teensshould be getting, also
including really key aspectslike the fact that our teens are
actually on a different sleepschedule than we are as adults,
because at puberty their sleepschedule starts to shift later.
(07:33):
It's their circadian rhythmshifts, and what that means is
that they are no longer feelingsleepy as early as they used to,
nor are they feeling rested andready to wake up as early as
they used to.
So, as parents, if you've had asix year old who bounds out of
bed at six thirty, you know theycan be just ready to go right
(07:53):
at dawn, but your teen is notgoing to do the same thing, and
that is biologically based.
So you've got a couple of thesemajor truths when it comes to
teen sleep that, a they needeight to ten hours of sleep.
B they're on this later sleepschedule.
And then, c the final piece ofthis equation often is the
school start times, when they'reso early.
(08:15):
That makes it virtuallyimpossible for teens who aren't
feeling sleepy until later atnight to be able to get enough
sleep, because if they have towake too early in the morning,
chances are very, very good thatthey are not then able to get
those eight to ten hours ofsleep.
Vai (08:31):
Okay.
So what then happens when thealarm clock goes off?
Like there's always thisinclination to hit the snooze
button right, even for us adults, you know, like some of us are,
like you know, only very few ofus, i should say, are able to
jump out right out of bedfeeling like, okay, i'm ready
for the morning.
But, most of us tend to go forthat snooze button.
Lisa Lewis (08:54):
I'm glad you brought that up, because that is one of
the things that I do touch onin the book is when you look at
ways that you can help avoidsort of cutting into your sleep
more than you need to.
And unfortunately, using asnooze button actually is
cutting into your sleep morethan you need to, because that
extra amount of sleep that youget after you hit the snooze
button is negligible in terms ofthe overall whole And it's not
(09:16):
as high quality as it would havebeen if you hadn't hit the
snooze button at all and hadjust set your alarm clock for a
later time.
So there's that piece of it.
That said, the Awaking TooEarly really is an issue, and
that's why, when it comes to ourteens who are in middle school
and high school, and when theirschools are starting too early,
that is a major piece of theproblem.
(09:37):
It is not the only thingaffecting their sleep, but it is
a major one, and it is fairlystraightforward to address.
Their early wake times are tiedto their early school bells,
and so if you can adjust theschool bells, you can allow them
to be able to sleep later inthe morning.
Vai (09:56):
So do you think it's okay for elementary school kids to be
going early to school Becauseat that age they are able to
wake up early enough than middleschoolers or high schoolers?
Is that a correct understanding, lisa?
Lisa Lewis (10:11):
That's a great question.
I'm glad you brought that up,because, by and large, yes, that
is correct, in that ourelementary schoolers are on an
earlier schedule.
They have not yet had thecircadian rhythm shift that I
was mentioning, because theyhaven't yet had puberty, so, in
general, they are able to fallasleep earlier and to wake
earlier.
So what that means is that,oftentimes, when school
(10:33):
districts are looking atchanging their start times, they
have to look at not just themiddle and the high schools, but
often the elementary schoolstoo, because oftentimes, if they
are offering bus transportation, they're using a single fleet
of buses for an elementary,middle and high school, and so
they've instituted a tieredsystem of drop offs and pickups
(10:54):
so that they can get all thekids, you know, using those same
buses, sure, and so oftentimes,in a scenario like that, where
the middle or the high schoolersare going early, that means the
elementary schools are goinglater, and so, if that's the
case, they often can literallyjust flip flop.
The only caveat to that, though,is that you still don't want
(11:16):
elementary schoolers startingschool at the crack of dawn, and
there are, even now, highschools that I was astounded
when I did the research intothis they weren't starting just
as early as 730.
They were some starting at 7am.
So 7am is not good forelementary schoolers either.
I mean, i think there is thatcommon sense aspect that at some
point there is a point thatjust is simply too early across
(11:39):
the board.
Vai (11:40):
What, then, is like an ideal scenario, or like a good
middle ground, so to speak, is8am, like a fairly decent start
for all of them.
I know California now has thislaw, but what about the other
states?
and what about?
you know, this podcast reachesso many countries in the world,
so what then across the globe,would you suggest, is like a
(12:02):
decent start time, given all theresearch that you've put into
writing this sleep deprived teenbook.
Lisa Lewis (12:08):
Yeah, no, that's a great question, somewhat complex
answers.
So the first thing I would sayis, yeah, i'm based in
California in the United States,where we do now have,
california being the first andthe only state, as of right now,
that has a law setting minimumallowed start times for middle
and high schools.
(12:29):
So the official recommendationfrom the American Academy of
Pediatrics is that middle andhigh schools should start no
earlier than 830 because of theimpact on adolescent sleep and
therefore the impact that has onsuch a wide range of behaviors.
As you will know, that's middleand high school, that's not
elementary, and that has to dowith what we were just talking
(12:50):
about.
The elementary schoolers don'thave this circadian rhythm shift
and so, by and large, theyaren't as at risk for some of
this extreme mismatch betweentheir body clock and the school
start time.
There's a group that I've beenvery involved with called Start
School Later.
They are volunteer led.
There are chapters all over thecountry.
There actually are somechapters outside of the US as
(13:12):
well, and their general stanceon this is that 8 am really is a
good floor, that, as far aselementary school, that anyone
starting earlier than 8 that iswhen you have to start.
Looking at you know at whatpoint is it just too early.
The other thing I wanted tomention, though, is that school
start times and sleep areobviously an issue beyond just
the United States.
So, in broad terms, manyEuropean countries, the schools
(13:35):
already start later than they doin the US.
In many Asian countries,however, they start earlier, and
issues of sleep deprivation canbe even more of an issue, so
this really is something thathas much broader implications.
Vai (13:48):
Okay, given what you said, Lisa, what about the role of
sleep in our health, especiallyteen health, and, of course, the
ramifications of that onwhatever you know, academics,
whatever their life in general,the quality of life and, most
importantly, mental health?
So how is all this playing intoeverything?
(14:09):
the overall role of sleep inanyone's life, i think even as
children, as teens, tweens,prior to teenage, and then after
that as adults, we all need asleep, right?
We?
Lisa Lewis (14:23):
do?
We do, and in fact, overall wespend about one third of our
lives asleep, and that's becausesleep is essential.
You cannot function withoutenough sleep.
You literally cannot stay alive.
You know, at some point you canfunction longer without food
than you can without your bodyjust falling asleep because you
need sleep.
It's a very complex process.
(14:44):
I should know it And I am ajournalist, not a medical
professional, but I've had somany conversations with so many
of the researchers who delveinto this So well.
In broad terms, the biggesttakeaway is nobody does anything
any better as a result of beingsleep deprived.
So there is not one benefit,and when we don't get enough
sleep, it affects literallyevery aspect of our lives.
(15:06):
So for teens, for instance,there's so much in terms of
brain development that's goingon, which I mentioned, and a lot
of that does take place whenthey're sleeping.
When we sleep is also theprimary time that growth hormone
is released, which isresponsible for growth, as you
would expect, but it's alsoessential for healing from
(15:26):
injury and from illness, so ithas implications for immunity as
well.
Getting enough sleep is alsowhat helps keep the two hormones
that regulate our feelings ofhunger in proper balance leptin
and ghrelin.
So when we don't get enoughsleep we are more likely to
crave higher fat and highersugar foods.
So chronic sleep deprivationabsolutely does play into things
(15:48):
like obesity.
Sleep is important for cardiachealth.
It's important from a publicsafety perspective.
When you look at sleep depriveddrivers on the road and the
number of drowsy drive crashes,oh my gosh, yeah.
And then and that's not evengetting to the other big, big
one you mentioned, which ismental health, which is huge
Sleep absolutely is intertwinedwith mental health.
(16:09):
When you are sleep deprived itexacerbates depression, anxiety,
suicidality.
It intensifies our emotions.
We're not.
When we haven't gotten enoughsleep, we feel things more
intensely.
And then, when you get back toteens versus adults, the
difference for us as adults iswe've already completed that
major phase of brain developmentthat goes on during adolescence
(16:31):
.
So we have a fully formedprefrontal cortex, which is
what's responsible for executivefunctioning and impulse control
and everything associated withthat, whereas for our teens that
process is still in process, sothey don't yet have the same
breaks, if you will, emotionalbreaks, to temper that increased
(16:52):
intensive emotion that comesfrom being sleep.
Vai (16:56):
Oh my gosh, I never realized there's so much to it.
I just thought it was allhabitual and that some of us
were inherently early birds andsome of us were, like you know,
late night owls And well, andjust to interrupt that that is
still true.
Lisa Lewis (17:12):
There is still a wide range of human variability,
so it is indeed true that thereare some people who are
naturally going to gravitate toone end or the other.
That being said, though, youknow, for the vast majority of
us, that range which, again,it's a two hour range, for
adults it's seven to nine hoursof sleep, for teens it's eight
(17:32):
to 10.
So, recognizing that the bulkof us really do fall within that
range And, yes, there can beoutlayers on either end but to
recognize that, trying toconvince yourself that you can
get by unless sleep doesn't makeit so, So true, and there are,
scientifically speaking, thereare different stages of sleep,
(17:53):
right, like REM sleep andwhatnot.
Vai (17:56):
So if one doesn't go to bed reasonably on time in terms of
the duration of sleep that onecan get the seven to nine or the
eight to 10 that you're talkingabout then I guess several
things accrue from it in termsof the negative impact, right,
if one doesn't get the amount ofsleep that's necessary and the
(18:18):
different stages of sleep, Sothat way you know, you're much
more relaxed in your when you'rein like deep sleep mode, right,
say like a third or fourth hourof sleep when you're sleeping
at night.
So I guess, scientifically, theamount of rest and the nature
of rest that one gets becomestoo significant of a deal here.
(18:39):
So I guess people don't evenrealize the impact that sleep
has in our lives, don't youagree?
Lisa Lewis (18:47):
Yes, absolutely, and it's actually kind of well
funny I guess isn't the rightword but up until a couple
hundred years ago it was justsort of thought of that, like
you were sort of unconsciouswhen you were asleep And now we
know how much is taking placewhile we're sleeping.
So, as you mentioned, there arestages of sleep that we cycle
through throughout the entirenight And one thing related to
(19:09):
that that I think is importantto mention again, back to teens.
So the stages there are threestages of non REM sleep And then
there's REM sleep, the rapideye movement phase.
Our REM sleep actually more ofit takes place during the second
half of the night, just the wayour cycles play out over the
course of the night.
So what that means is for ourteens, or for anyone really
who's being forced to wake tooearly you are quite literally
(19:31):
cutting into the amount of REMsleep you get.
They're all essential stages,but REM is when.
It's when we dream, but it'salso when our brains are
assessing and integratinginformation and forging new
insights.
So that's the stage that isspecifically most often being
cut into when our teens have towake too early.
Vai (19:51):
Oh, that's not good at all.
I'm just very curious, lisa.
Are schools taught times thesole reason why teens are sleep
deprived?
What about the academicpressure and the load that the
kids seem to have to undertake?
these days?
There are a plethora of APclasses that they all are taking
(20:11):
, right So?
and I know of kids that havedone like 14 or 16 APs in the
term of their high school and,gosh, i'm like Hey, did you even
get enough sleep during ourhigh school?
So how do we just address allof this and make sure that teen
mental health and teenwell-being is preserved?
Lisa Lewis (20:31):
That is such a big piece of it.
I'm so glad you mentioned that.
To answer your question, havinghealthy start times it's a
necessary but not sufficientcondition for our teens to get
enough sleep, because whenschools start too early, as I
mentioned, it makes it virtuallyimpossible for them to get the
eight to 10 hours they need.
I mean, if you just do the math, if they've got to wake up at
(20:51):
530 in the morning for them tohave gotten eight to 10 hours,
they'd have to go to bed at aridiculously early hour.
So that's what happens on themorning front in terms of what
is affecting what time they wakeup.
It is most directly affected byschool start times.
There's one other piece thatcan play in and that's before
school stuff like sportspractices etc.
Which gets to your point all ofthe activities they're doing in
(21:13):
addition to their workloads,and this whole idea of really
taking a hard look at whetherthey're over scheduled, because
that too is what oftencontributes to them going to bed
very, very late 1am or laterAnd you do that And again, that
is absolutely going to affectyour ability to get a good
night's sleep.
I can recall even when my sonwas in high school their high
(21:35):
school day was six periods And Iremember him telling me one
time about a kid he knew who wastaking eight AP classes.
So every single class periodplus two more on their own, and,
yes, i think that that can beexcessive.
It is difficult because thereason why kids are doing that,
and why parents often are insupport of it, is because of
(21:55):
this pressure to get into a goodschool and to be successful.
But you reach the point ofdiminishing returns.
You need to look at how is that, as you said, how is that
impacting your sleep Andtherefore, how is that impacting
your mental health?
And you really do need to takeall of that into account when
you look at all the stuff onyour teen's plate.
(22:18):
Taking one more AP class is notgoing to make or break their
future, but it could actually bethe thing that pushes them over
the edge.
Vai (22:26):
Exactly, and in fact there are far-reaching consequences of
sleep deprivation that we allthink getting them into a good
school and getting themsuccessful is the key goal here,
but then down the road, thequality of life, like you, even
touched upon immunity and somuch more that could get
impacted because of sleepdeprivation.
Right, and there's organsdetoxifying at certain times of
(22:50):
the night and into the earlymorning and stuff like that.
So we are on a schedule,circadian, rhythm-wise, and to
disturb that is like playingwith mother nature, i guess.
From the standpoint of helpingteens thrive, how do you think
sleep impacts that?
Sometimes they tend to getangry, their emotions play out.
(23:11):
Is that a manifestation of lackof sleep?
Lisa Lewis (23:16):
Absolutely.
It can be related to that,because sleep is important for
emotional regulation.
So what that means is, when wehaven't gotten enough sleep, our
emotions run hotter and we feelthings more intensely.
So that's not just our teens,that's us too, i mean.
I know for myself if I haven'tgotten enough sleep, i'm more
crabby, i'm not as much fun tobe around.
(23:37):
Oh yeah, so that's just sort oftrue across the board for us as
humans.
Vai (23:42):
I can feel myself in that situation.
Lisa Lewis (23:45):
So yeah, when you haven't gotten enough sleep
you're just more moody, you'reharder to get along with, but
you feel things more intensely.
That can include things likeanger.
The difference, though, for ourteens versus us as adults is
having that intensity of emotioncan be tempered in the adult
brain by the role of theprefrontal cortex, which is seat
(24:07):
of executive functioning andimpulse control and helps us
kind of control all of that,whereas in our teens their
brains are still in the midst ofthis massive phase of brain
development, so they don't yethave those same sort of
cognitive tools to draw on.
They're not as strong or asable to temper the emotions in a
(24:29):
teen who hasn't gotten enoughsleep as in an adult who hasn't
gotten enough sleep.
Vai (24:33):
Okay.
In other words, rest improvespositivity and their ability to
just respond with more vibrancyto any situation.
It's all a reflection of thequality of sleep that they get.
Lisa Lewis (24:44):
correct Well being well rested absolutely improves
your emotional resiliency.
It can improve your outlook,but it also helps temper the
intensity of some of thosenegative emotions.
Vai (24:55):
Yeah, thanks for clarifying on that.
And it's just, we all tend tolabel kids as hey, you know what
that's attention deficit, allit's this or that, or you know,
without even realizing theunderlying cause of it all And,
very basically, that could bethe lack of sleep, right?
So we don't know.
Other factors may becontributing to someone acting a
(25:17):
certain way, but then I thinkwe all need to realize that as a
society, we need to just focuson the quality of sleep that we
get Back in a moment with ourguest on Fresh Leaf Forever.
Whatever is happening to tweensand teens, given that they are
(25:43):
sleep deprived, is that crime?
is that substance use?
or is that they're eatingpattern?
And you mentioned teen drivers.
That's a great point.
So what are the actually thecrucial aspects that we need to
focus here?
Lisa Lewis (25:59):
I think all of those are important to be aware that
sleep impacts and sleep doesimpact crime because, again, it
lowers self control, itincreases susceptibility to peer
influence.
I would focus, though there'stwo I'd love to highlight.
One is driving, but the secondis getting back to mental health
and specifically, suicidality,which I think you know.
(26:20):
You can have a kid who,outwardly, is successful, is
getting good grades, but youknow the mental health
accumulative impact of sleepdeprivation is so, so crucial to
understand.
You know, again, as I mentioned, in teens still developing
brains, the threshold for makinga decision or acting on it is
lower, and so, when it comes tosuicidality or actual suicide
(26:42):
attempts, that's actually prettyrelevant.
The other piece is that there'sa dose response relationship
when it comes to sleep andsuicide risk.
In fact, there was a metaanalysis of studies I referred
to in the book it came out in2018, and they looked at all
these different studies And whatthey found was that, for every
hour increase in sleep, the riskof planning suicide went down
(27:04):
by 11%.
Right, that's just a huge number, absolutely, and so really to
be aware of this that this isnot something to be taken
lightly, particularly when weconsider the immense mental
health challenges of the lastfew years.
The fact that our teens havebeen suffering and getting
(27:25):
enough sleep is one way to helpthem, sort of provide a buffer
against that.
When you get enough sleep, itprovides more resilience, just
as something so essential forour teens.
The other piece you mentionedwas driving, and that, too, is
key because that is a publichealth issue for our teens and
for anyone else who's on theroads when they're behind the
(27:46):
wheel and sleep deprived.
It's not safe for any driver tobe behind the wheel when they
haven't gotten enough sleep, andthat's because when you are
sleep deprived, it makes youslower to respond to
circumstances that are going on.
It affects your judgment.
You can also literally fallasleep.
You can have what's called amicrosleep, which is where you
fall sleep for maybe a fractionof a second, but let's say
(28:08):
you're behind the wheel, yourcar is still moving forward.
That's incredibly dangerous.
Vai (28:12):
Oh no, that's the last thing one would want, right Well
?
Lisa Lewis (28:15):
and then think about all of that on top of the fact
that the driver may only be 16or 17, and so they're still new
drivers and they don't yet havethe same judgment that comes
with experience.
So it really is a concern whenyou talk about drowsy driving.
The combination of being a new,inexperienced driver and
(28:36):
somebody who's sleep deprived isjust a double whammy.
Vai (28:39):
I mean totally agree with you.
That's just such a great pointthat you brought up there.
What about the focus onlearning?
and how does lack of sleepimpact both students and
educators?
I like because, for theteachers, the attention span of
the students that they get inthe classroom and then that
(28:59):
reflecting on the grades, allthat is like a huge factor,
right From their performance andtheir ability to deliver what
they want to.
So how do we narrow thiseducation equity gap?
Lisa Lewis (29:12):
You are right that when you have kids who are
sleepy in class, it absolutelyis impacting them.
It's impacting the teachers too.
There were several teachers Ispoke with who were very
familiar with having kidsliterally falling asleep in
class, not only, obviously, as akid who is fast asleep, not
(29:32):
learning, but it kind of putsmore pressure on the teachers to
keep them awake, which arguablythey're not trying to do a
lecture that's going to puttheir kids to sleep.
But when a kid shows up who'ssleep deprived, they shouldn't
have to be like doing things,like yelling and bouncing and
clapping and doing things tokeep the kids awake.
(29:52):
So the kids who are fallingasleep on their desk clearly are
not learning, but even the oneswho are there and their eyes
are open, they haven't literallyfallen asleep but nothing's
penetrating.
Well, clearly that's impactingtheir ability to learn as well.
So there are actually three keyways that being sleep deprived
impacts learning And this issomething that's been studied
(30:13):
quite a lot.
But specifically, the researcherMary Karsgaden has been very,
very influential in this wholearea of adolescent sleep
research And she describes itreally as the three ways are
acquiring new information,retaining that information and
then retrieving that information.
So what that means is acquiring.
well, that's when they'relearning, that's when they're
(30:34):
sitting in class and learningthe information, or it's when
they're reading their textbookat home and trying to learn
something new.
The retention piece has to dowith everything that goes on
when they're asleep, becausethat is when our brain processes
and assesses and stores all ofthe information that we gather
throughout the course of the day.
So if you're not getting enoughsleep, it impacts that, and
(30:55):
then, finally, if you're sleepdeprived, you're trying to
retrieve that information So toremember what you learned in
order to take a test, or to beable to remember what you
learned in class because youneed to apply it in order to be
able to do your homework.
So all of that is affected bynot getting enough sleep.
Vai (31:12):
That makes me even wonder the method that kids adopt in
terms of their learning style.
Some of them tend to think, oh,last minute, I can just sit and
cram through this material andgo to an exam.
So again, it's like studyhabits, consistent learning and
sleep.
That is when you even processall this information and you're
(31:34):
able to retrieve and thenpresent it at the time of your
exam.
Right, It just makes so muchsense when you put it across
here.
What about socioeconomic status, gender inequality, whatever
that's going on in our society,how sleep quality, duration, how
it all differs when it comes toputting our society together,
(31:57):
how we look at it overall andwhatever is?
the reality, in fact.
Lisa Lewis (32:02):
Yeah, And I have a whole chapter on that called not
all teens sleep the same,because that's exactly what you
were just getting at.
There are so many other factorsthat can play in And again
these are all huge topics.
So I sort of give an overviewin the book and we're going to
give an even more distilledversion of it here.
Just very quickly and verybroadly.
The first, looking at biologicalsex, so biological female
(32:26):
versus male.
And I say that because,unfortunately, females do tend
to sleep worse than males Andthis begins to become apparent
at puberty.
Up until that point they reallydon't see much in the way of
sleep differences.
But starting at puberty,females are at higher risk of
insomnia and also take longer tofall asleep.
(32:46):
But the real thing that Iwanted to highlight today is the
impact of the monthly menstrualcycle.
Hormones are very, verypowerful and they do affect
sleep.
When you think about in the US,about half of all girls have
gotten their periods by age 12.
So just to give a sense of thescope of this and the fact that
for so many girls and women whoare of reproductive age, they
(33:10):
can get PMS, they can get cramps.
All of that affects your abilityto get a good night's sleep.
That's a really big thing tokeep in mind.
There are also aspects relatedto sexual and gender minority
teens, so LGBTQ plus.
Now, a lot of thisunfortunately happens to be
rooted in discrimination.
But if you are the target ofdiscrimination or your group is
(33:33):
the target of discrimination,whether or not you personally
have experienced it, that isalso going to affect your sleep.
Same thing for teens of color.
They have found teens andadults of color
disproportionately sleep worsethan their counterparts.
And again, a lot of this isdiscrimination.
And when I say discrimination,it can also be everything from
microaggressions on up.
(33:54):
But if you have been the targetof that, let's say that affects
your sleep that night And thenthe next day you wake up less
well equipped to deal withanything like that that you may
encounter, because being wellrested is what provides you with
that emotional resiliency.
And then you also mentionedpoverty and neighborhood
environment, which again canimpact your ability because of
(34:17):
things like noise.
If it's noisy in your livingspace or outside your building,
if it's crowded, if you haven'thad enough to eat, the effect
your ability to get a goodnight's sleep.
You can have more than one ofthese at play in your life If
you are a female and you livesomewhere where it's crowded or
(34:40):
whatever I mean.
These are all factors that canoverlay one on top of the other,
and all of them are, above andbeyond everything else we've
been talking about, alreadyaffecting sleep.
Vai (34:50):
So beautifully brought out there, Lisa.
What about sports performance?
So many of our teens these daysare playing sports.
They just want to go on to playvarsity sports and then NCAA
division 1, 2, 3, whatever itmay be, collegiate athletes,
right, So?
and I have one of my own incollege, So I know what it
(35:13):
entails to be an athlete.
What about sports performancewhen it comes to what we are
talking about here in terms ofsleep deprivation or the
importance of sleep for anathlete to be able to perform
well in?
his or her sport and also inwhatever else they are doing in
life.
Right The academic side of it.
Lisa Lewis (35:32):
Absolutely, for teens who are playing sports.
There's a couple of differentthings that I want to mention.
The first is absolutely, sleepis a competitive advantage.
So, as an athlete, you thinkabout your nutrition.
You know you think about allthese other aspects.
Sleep is also one of those areasto be concentrating on and it
really has become much morewidely known as an essential
(35:55):
aspect to consider over the lastdecade or so.
And that's because when you'resleep deprived, it affects your
coordination, it affects yourresponse time, it affects your
learning ability, so to rememberpatterns or whatever it is
you're being taught by yourcoach.
Also, if you're sleep deprived,it increases your risk for
injury.
So there's that piece of it.
And then you need enough sleep,because sleep is essential
(36:19):
during the recovery process.
So if you've been injured, butalso just after a hard workout,
it's essential for being able torecover properly.
So there's all that at play.
Then you know there are otheraspects to think about too.
Some sports have before schoolpractices, so then you're
talking about most often cuttinginto your sleep.
So that can be a factor, andthat may be something for
(36:41):
parents of teens in particularto be evaluating when they're
looking at their kids overallschedule, Because having to get
up at 5 am to get in the poolevery day, that actually can be
pretty harmful when you thinkabout it from a sleep
deprivation standpoint.
And then, of course, this wholeother aspect we were talking
about being overloaded and thedrive to succeed.
You know, being an athlete iswonderful and fulfilling And,
(37:05):
yes, it can be something that,you know, kids continue with in
college, but also to bear inmind that that is probably not
going to be their ultimatecareer path.
So, when they are sacrificingso much to do that, to be aware
of all these other aspects too,Oh, makes total sense, And
that's a note to me as well as aparent.
Vai (37:25):
But hey, there's one thing, the passion side of it, And
then there's one thing, thereality side of it.
Right, I guess it's a balancingact, And how will we all do it
determines the quality of lifethat we ultimately tend to get.
What about the role of us likeparents, educators, coaches,
overall role of friends and thesupport system in society in
(37:49):
ensuring that teens get bettersleep and how can we help them
thrive?
What are the factors?
And, in fact, we all live in anage of technology, So I know
you have a whole chapterdedicated to it in your book.
So what's the impact oftechnology on sleep and how
better can we help teens thrive?
Lisa Lewis (38:09):
Lisa, yeah, i'm not even sure where to begin because
all of those are huge,important aspects, but let's so,
let's just focus on tech rightnow, because that is such a huge
one, it's omnipresent, and thatis something where parents can
absolutely have a role.
It's a little tricky becauseit's here to stay.
It isn't as if it's tech versusno tech.
(38:30):
I mean it's definitely, it'somnipresent.
It's how our kids do theirhomework.
You know how they turn inassignments, and so that is
something teachers actually canhave a role in, because if an
assignment isn't due until 11.59pm, obviously that's kind of
encouraging kids to stay up lateand turn it in late.
So that's one thing perhapsthat the schools can look at.
But as parents, we need to bemindful of ideally not having
(38:55):
them wait till the last minuteto do assignments, because
that's one one reason whythey're they're online.
But then also looking at theother ways and reasons that our
kids are online, and that'swhere things like social media
come into play, and again,that's not all bad.
I mean, social media is anessential part of our kids'
relationships.
It's how they stay in contact.
(39:17):
Same way, i used to talk on thetelephone for hours when I was
in high school.
So now you know that's part ofwhat being online is.
It's staying connected withtheir friends, and to recognize
that there is a very valid placefor that.
So the challenge, though, iswhen it's too much, and when
it's too much can mean a numberof things, and again, this is
(39:37):
sort of just a quick overview,but it can be too much based on
their mental state, becauseobviously there's, you know, the
whole fear of missing out, andthere's the kind of feedback
that can be negative they may begetting from being online.
There's also just the sheeramount of time they're online
and how that can affect sleep.
So that's where parents canalso play a role.
So, when you think about whatare some of the best practices
(40:00):
that we can implement in ourhomes, so this is where there
are actually official guidelines.
So the American Academy ofPediatrics recommends no tech
use one hour before bedtime, andthey also recommend no tech
devices left in the bedroomovernight.
So those would be the bestpractices.
Now, that being said, irecognize that's sometimes
easier to say than it is to do.
(40:22):
Even so, it's good, i think, tobe aware of those and to work
toward those.
When it comes to the no techuse one hour before bedtime.
That's also because when you'reonline, it's revving you up.
Usually what you're doing isstimulating and engaging And
it's not helping you get readyto go to sleep.
(40:42):
So that's where, ideally, youwant to turn off your devices.
You want to have something elsethat you're doing, some set of
activities that you do.
That's sort of a wind downroutine And that's for us as
adults, that's for our teams todo for themselves.
It's sort of like what we didfor our kids when they were
young, but encouraging them tocome up with some kind of way to
(41:03):
help wind down and prepare forbed every single night.
Just because you can't turn offyour brain like the way you
flick a switch doesn't work thatway.
You have to have sometransition time between just
that being productive mode ofdoing your homework or, if
you're an adult, being on emailand doing all that stuff.
You can't just turn it off andexpect that you're abruptly
going to be able to fall asleep.
You need to have an endingpoint for that and have
(41:26):
something to help you make thattransition.
Vai (41:29):
Oh well, yeah, that fear of missing out that you pointed
out.
When it comes to social mediause, i think that's across the
board.
Even elementary school kidsnowadays are starting to have
phones, and so the tweens andteens, no wonder.
And even adults.
We all feel like, oh okay, ineed to be part of the
conversation.
So we all have that in somesense or the other.
(41:52):
But then it's dependent on whatlimits we set ourselves.
I think every app there doesallow for pointers on letting us
know that, hey, you havereached the limit that you have
set for yourself for the day.
So that is doable, and I guessthat's where the communication
within the family has to happenas well, in terms of, hey, you
(42:14):
know what?
this was how my day was, thiswas how your day was.
So we are not forced to juststay on social media for the
sake of even company, right, andnow to focus more on helping
teens thrive.
How else can we help teensthrive other than, okay, the
limits on how we use technologyor how best can we use
(42:36):
technology, because it just has,at this point, become a
necessary evil, right?
So it really has.
Yeah, the school start timesand the strategies for success
We also talked about that, theworkload, etc.
Is there anything else that youwould like to share in terms of
where we are today and what tofocus on going forward, lisa?
(42:57):
that way we can help teensthrive.
Lisa Lewis (43:00):
You're a parent I am too and we know just it's hard.
you know it's challenging.
They are going through so muchAnd as a parent, you know
there's a lot to take intoaccount.
So I think there are severaltakeaways from what we've talked
about.
The first, when it comes tohelping our teens get enough
sleep, is just kind ofrecognizing how essential that
is for them that they should begetting eight to 10 hours, how
(43:22):
important that is for theiremotional resiliency, their
mental health, their schoolperformance across the board.
recognizing that start times,what time the school day starts,
really does have a major pieceto play in that equation, and
ideally every state eventuallywill enact a law like California
is such a straightforward wayto look at what are the things
(43:43):
that they're impacting theirsleep.
But then for us as parentsreally to focus on what other
things we can help influence Andthat is absolutely the over
scheduling piece that we talkedabout, because that really
really can cut into sleep whenkids have too many hours
allocated not just to being inschool but to homework and all
(44:03):
these other extracurricularsthey're doing, and you do need
to still carve out time forthings like eating,
conversations with family andfriends.
So just to look at are theyperhaps over scheduled and how
to address that.
The tech guidelines And then Ithink probably the overall one
which covers all this, is justhow to make sleep a priority
(44:24):
overall at the family level.
So for our kids to see that wealso are making sleep a priority
, we are doing things like notbeing online in bed at night.
we are trying to get enoughsleep.
I think that is probably theoverarching message is just to
make sleep a family priority.
Vai (44:43):
Oh beautiful, that's very well said.
What about the US versus thescenario in rest of the globe,
right Overall, do you think as asociety, we need to make a
shift and there needs to beadvocacy efforts in terms of,
say, school start times andseveral other things?
you know from an athleticstandpoint how coaches are
(45:04):
dealing with the kids in termsof practice hours and whatnot.
do you think we are verydifferent as a society in terms
of how the rest of the worldhandles it?
Lisa Lewis (45:15):
You know, i have to say I'm not as familiar with the
practices in other parts of theworld, with the exception of
start times, where I do know, asI mentioned, that in general
many European countries theschools do tend to start a bit
later than in the US, whereas inmany countries in Asia they're
actually starting earlier andsome of this pressure to succeed
(45:35):
can be even more pronounced.
The amount of sleep that weneed doesn't vary across borders
.
Teens across the globe aregoing to function better if
they're getting eight to 10hours of sleep.
The specific factors making itdifficult for them to do that
may vary based on where theylive, but it doesn't change the
reality that they still need toget enough sleep, Hey, no matter
(45:58):
what at the end of the day, andno matter culturally how
different we are as human beingsacross the globe, we all do the
same things, and we all need towake up in the morning, we all
need to go to bed at night andthen we all need to do our thing
.
Vai (46:13):
My goal is to focus on a sustainable future and to ensure
that we preserve our planet.
I feel that mental health andseveral other factors and how we
nurture our younger generationplays a major role in how we are
going to help them build abetter planet for themselves.
(46:36):
How can we emphasize this aswhy and how sleep is important
for a sustainable future andwell-being?
Oh my goodness.
Lisa Lewis (46:47):
Well, i think, just in the broadest sense, that we
are raising the next generationof leaders.
Being well rested is part ofthem being healthy and enabling
them to become productivemembers of society.
We know, too, that being wellrested helps with creativity.
(47:08):
It helps with our behaviorsacross the board.
So I think being well rested isa benefit for all of us.
Vai (47:15):
Oh, and then think with clarity to be able to do
everything.
So whatever they need tocontribute or however they can
contribute to our society and toour planet.
So thank you so much for thisfascinating conversation.
I'm sure many, many parents,many tweens, teens, would
(47:36):
benefit from this immensely, andI encourage everyone to read
this fascinating book SleepDeprived Teen by Lisa Lewis.
Lisa Lewis (47:47):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, the book is called TheSleep Deprived Teen.
I do actually use my middleinitial just because it's a
relatively common name, so it'sLisa L Lewis And then the book
is The Sleep Deprived Teen.
And I just wanted to thank youfor having me on your podcast to
talk about this and justhearing you lay out your reasons
for doing the podcast.
(48:07):
I mean, i'm just such a fan ofall of that And I appreciate
everything that you do, so thankyou so much for having me.
Vai (48:14):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you, and would you liketo add anything else here?
I would make sure to include inmy show notes links to your
website and to the book andeverything that waits handy for
the listeners, but would youlike to add your social media
handle or anything else?
Lisa Lewis (48:34):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, the website is www.
Lisal Lewiscom And on socialmedia Twitter and Instagram you
can find me at Lewis Lisa.
Vai (48:47):
L, And that's L-E-W-I-S Yes .
Lisa Lewis (48:52):
L-E-W-I-S-L-I-S-A-L Lewis, lisa L.
Vai (48:57):
Perfect, perfect.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to join us here on the
podcast And we look forward tocatching up with you again in
the future.
Wonderful, thank you again forhaving me.
Okay, and listeners, as always,follow the podcast.
Rate the podcast, leave areview from your podcast app of
(49:17):
choice And until next time withyet another interesting guest
and yet another interestingtopic.
It's me Vai saying so long.
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